The Sun. — London, England, 1820-05-09 00:00:00

trine which hail arisen in the country—more in deed in the Hoese thee in the country—the prin ciple of exclusive production. This principle went so far as to establish, that it was better to pay twice as much, in order to produce in our own country what we could get from another at half the rate. This was a most erroneous notion It was contrary to nature ; for it was not to be -supposed that Providence had given the sameid- Yautages to ail soils. It had been observed in later times, thitit tie wisdom was continually en, . vooriog to produce at home ever.y..possitsle tie.- script ion of produce. The northern people, whose country was comparatively barren, stiolied by ingenuity to overcome their natural difficulties— they scratched their own barren rocks, to see if they could not rival the luxuriant productions of the South. The futility of such policy might easily be shown e and on this head he should ie . commend a return to the old principle of protect ing the importation of raw produce. He should . like very much to hear the explanation Mi nisters would give on this point. He was glad ' that the motion respecting the tax on wool was in such good hands as the Noble Lord's (Milton). The agricailtural interests were greatly concerned in this qiirs , ion. The home mar kets, they were told, was every thing, the foreign markets comparatively nothing. But supposing that it turned out that the woollen manufacture in Fiance should be established so as to turn us out; beat out of the foreign markets, in what a state would our woollen manufacture be at home! This was the greatest country in the world for wool.— No other country could produce one third as mod), and the consequence would be, that a great quantity over and above what was required of the home markets, most go to the Continent at a con siderable loss to the farmers. Ile felt so strongly oo this subject, that he was greatly surprised when lie heard the' Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. F. Robinson) declare, that without having heard one word, Government had made up their Minds that no alteration should take place. He deprecated tie' restrictions Which bad not long back been placed on the traffic of timber, which had been advantageously carried on with the Norwegians ; be believed that had metre us more enemies than any other part of our commercial laws, the whole effect of which was to give to foreign nations an idea of unnecessary severity in all that 'related to our commercial ttansuctious, at the saute time that it engendered a spirit of retaliation on their parts. Ile would - do away with 'all total prOhibi lions as far as possible, substituting a formal duty instead. In the course of the last year the reve nue of the Custom Duties lied fallen off a million and a half, which he 'thought might be attri . baited in a great measure to total prohibition.—.- Jo prohibited articles he thought that it would be better to substitute a tax of 25 per ceot., upon delivery at the door., 'Soch a mea sure would have the effect of destroying the ; practice of smuggling. It was impossible to cal- ciliate the advantage that tyaishl arise from an un restrained freedom of trade. lie wished the subject to, be met with a full and unbiassed eimsideration, which in every, point of view it deserved. The state of the country was SO deplorable, that atten tion should be paid to the minutest circumstance connected with it. A great object with the EXC6..!•• tive Government ought to .be to obtain the re moval of restrictions placed by foreign countries on their cemmerciel connections with our own; and s the first step to this was, to begin at home.— ; (Ijear, hear !)—lt was the opinion of the most enlightened merchants of this country, that it was not from the restrictive system that we bad grown great, but that it was that systeth which now stood in the way 'of our greatness. Among other questions of the kind, it would become one of great importance to consider how far a further extension' of the India trade might not be injudicious. This he was aware was a delicate subject, on which we had not to deal with any foreign power, but with one still more terrible at home.—(A laugh.)—lf a fair case should be made out, that from the general state of the country an extension would he beneficial, without doing injury to the interests of the East India Company, he did not see what obstruction could remain to such a step. He would be the last to press it, however, if that Hon. CoMpany could spew that their interests in China, or else where, would suffer in consequence. But he wish ed fairly to argue the question with theM. The great objection to opan the trade with China was stated to be, the opportunity it would afford to smuggling, as also the possibility of deranging the relations of the Company with the Chinese Govern ment, which were so difficult of arrangement. But it might be urged in reply to this, that the China trade was open to all other countries—America, France, &c. and no difficultit s seemed to have arisen on their part. And with respect to the other objection, on the score of smuggling, that es American and foreign vessels were allowed to clear out from the Thames for China, they had the same facilities of smuggling with only half the security of our own countrymen. The trade to the Eastern Seas was one most susceptible of im• provement. It was, at present, carried on by the Americans to a large extent, and without any of the restraints which were imposed on British it, ciders. No .mischief resulted to the American Government in its relations with China on this ac count, and nothing was to be apprehended from permitting our : ships, like theirs, to be of any tonnage, and at liberty to go from port to port as required. If this wet e nlloaved , there was no telling to what a pitch the ingenuity of such cotnmer cial places as Liverpool, Glasgow, and London, aaright be carried ; and the increase of wealth that might possibly be derived from it was not to he celcidated. He telt the force of the argument, and woni:l he sorry to interfere with the negocialions between Government and the East India Company, but agreeing to every valid objection that could be urged against (voting the trade, he tas :confident that the Directors irs well as tbe House would think it advisable to meet the discussion fairly. and liberally, for the gentral interests of the country. All that he desired of the Com pany . WdS, IO ruler upon this discussion, and he tiirtiore to press any opinion as to what might he its, issue, lie bad now stated sooty generally the poiets embraced by the petition, and he was sure the c c iaisCanres of distress referred to were such as to demand inquiry flom the ilouse,. and from the country. He was aware that he sides the sources of commercial difficulty on which he had particularly dwelt, there were others which depended_on far different causes, and which time alone could remove. He was sensible,---' " small, of all the ills that men endure, That part . which Kings or Lords can make of cure.'.' But though some ot the evils were not to be remedied, this was no reason against their pro ceeding to inquire into the system, in order to ascertain what might be alleviated. It was their duty to take a cownrel►psive and liberal view of - thCrinestinn in its principles, and•perha,ps it would be expedieot to appoint a Committee to go info the details, and point rout what could he practi cally done for the relief of the people. He thanked the House for the polite attention with .which he had been listened to.—(Hear, hear !) The Petition was then brought up and read:— (See T4E Su N of the 26th April.) Mr. GRENPELL said, that having paid the in most attention to the able speech ot his Honour ,able. Friend, he saw no reason to dissent from him. This subject was one that was not foreign to his consideration for some years back ; but •at present he would not trespass on their time fur ther than to say, that his Hon. Friend expressed his sentiments, and that he fully concurred in every principle laid down by him, and contained in this petition.—Both in and out of that House, he would do every thing in his power to give these principles operation. _ • Mr. F. ROBINSON said, he would take the li berty of offering a few observations on the dues , tion which had been in so able a manner intro duced to the House. He was fully sensible of its extreme importance, and had on many former oc casions stated his convictioq that the system of positive restiiction was founded on error ; and whatever might be the opinion of persons par tially-interested in it, that it defeated the objects for the accomplishment of which it had been de vised. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Baring) had been pleased to pay•hint a compliment which he was unconscious of having deserved, but at the same tinge the lion. Gentleman had thrown an imputation upon his Majesty's Ministers, which could with no degree of justice be alleged. There had been no apathetic feelings on their part, nor were there any grounds for supposing 'hat regard to circumstances, in their own relations, had the slightest influence in regulating their conduct.— lie, for one, might have seen greater difficulties in• the way of giving effect to the Hon. Gentle man's views, than the Hon: Gentleman himself was willing ro allow ; but this arose from no de sire to thwart those views when they could be prac tically conducive to the good of the country.'in deed, orally and many ot•his attempts to introduce practical- measures, •had been most strenuously opposed by the Honourable Gentle Man's friends on his own side of the House. The transit dillies on linen was a proof of this, and it was hardly correct to blame Government for avhat ve , --s done by parties entirely unconnected with them, and _hostile to their propositions. He was convinced that the partiality for the restrictive system was so deeply rooted, that it would be very difficult to get it.relaxed ; and",this be said as his excuse for not having brought forward more frequently than be had done plans to that effect. Afterall, when they came to look at the practical means for car• rying the views of the petitioners into effect, he thought they must agree with him, that though right in general principle,_ would he impracti• cable to make the proposed alterations at once. The Home ought, nevertheless,. to. consider what could be done, and every alteration possible for the ituprovu.tnent of our commerce ought, to be adopted. Looking at the system of absolute pro hibition, he might, - on a - fair review,-be unpre pared to say that no - alterations ought to' take , place. In tact, those prohibitory l aws b a d been repealed, and it was only within the last two or three years that Acts of Richard 1., Edward 11., and Queen Elizabeth, had been -thus . expunged Irons the Statute Book. It would - still further appear how much had been done,. when they recollected, in the Report on the pe tition to the Lords on the Bank Restrictions, there was a list of 300 articles, which had been,l but were no longer inadmissibleinto this country. - The next topic on which the Hon. Gentleman had touched was, that of the duties on timber. He also thought, that the state of these duties're quired amendment, and ,it Was his intention'to submit an arrangement to that effect to the HoUse, in the course of the present Session. This Was the opinion'he- had always expressed to the par ties concerned in the trade, front none of whom had be ever heard a convincing arguinent in fa vour of the existing system. He perfectly agreed With the Hohourahle Gentleman that these du ties were the cause of our getting inferior timber from Canada, instead of that of excellent quality from the Baltic. It was also proper to remark, - that the duties were laid for the sake of revenue, and not as a protection to any class ; and [bete fore it was perfectly consistent With good faith to alter the present practice. With respect to the Navigation Laws, he also concurred with the Hon. Gentleman. These laws were unquestiOn ably injurious t l o . commerce, but the injury they did was as nothing when put into comparison with the security which they gave to the nation. This was their object, and while he was far from say ing that minor points which pressed bard on trade might not be - altered, us in various instances ex ceptions had beet' allowed, it must not be for gotten that these laws were framed for a purpose of vital importance, to which all other consider ations must be sacrificed. On the subject of the 'Transit Duties, it might be iii the recollection of 't he House, that he had in vain endeatioured to get that matter altered, but was defea t ed in the trial. He still thought that the subject ought to be taken into consideration, and he' was persuaded that •the- manutucturers of linen' might be con vinced of their error in ,thaintaining - that no change noi hurtful to them could be devised. With regard tivoior Commercial Treaties, it was not possible that while we continued restrictions we should expect privileges from foreign nations.— Ile had beard the ilinCGentleman on orte point connected with this subject with great pirktatire. It was gratifying to hear front so conipetent judge that seoriment avowed (which sonic of his 'friends had not beets so ready to acknowledge) ; he • meant the compliment to a .Z.'Z'oble Loud ' (Castlereagh) for the manner in which La bad conelode , l the last treaties, and for his not having imposed commercial conditions upon our allies, either as the price or punishment, of their con duct. This just tribute to the justice and policy of the Noble Lord, was the more to be prized as corning trout One st, well able to form a correct opiniost on the subject. The inter course with France, he might notice, it would probably be no easy matter to arrange. — Many Coolish prejudices existed on both sides, and the more difficult to be surmounted becaase they , were not merely comme'reiall - but national.— Sincerely did lie wish that the feeling at present alluded to by the Hon. Gewletnan were spread ' over the country—that the prosperity. of France was not a thing to be repined at. On the con trary, he hailed it as the surest guarantee of peace and tranquillity, and he could see nothing more desirable than that it shoal() increase, and peace. and commerce go hand in hand, instead of the pernicious military spirit which had been the •source of so much wretchedness. These were ge nerally and shortly his views on the points start ed. by the Hon. Gentleman. As to that which in• volved the agricultural interests, it would in all probability be distinctly brought under the consi deration of the House, in the event of which it would be the duty of Government to give it their best attention. A great feeling had been excited, but he could not persuade himself that there was any thing radically wrong in the existing law. But when that question was brought forward, which he trusted it would be fairly and candidly, as the Hon. Gentleman had introduced his mer cantile subject, it should receive his most anxious investigation, though he had before been decid edly of opinion that to interfere with it again was impolitic. He hat) omitted to notice the topic of the India trade. Here, as on other points, he was not prepared to deny that commercial inte rests might be promoted by the extension of the trade. But it must be remembered that this was a question of compact, and of the most serious kind. Therefore the House would be cautions in, what it did ; for they were not, under the idea of relieving the'wants of any class, to be driven has tily into any unfair transaction. Mr. GEORGE PHILLIPS approved of the Petition, and of the way in which it had been introduced. He was also glad to hear the Right Hon. Gentleman express opinions so favour able to commerce. He trusted they would not be rendered nugatory by that division in the Cabinet which existed on all great questions, much to the damage of the country. He ac cused Members of having .heystotore acted in opposition to the doctrines now profesed, 4Nl.instanced the tax on wool as a proof of their hostility to tree trace. KeDOUGLAS expressed his concurrence in the opi nion of the Hon. Mover, and his pleasure at hearing the sen timents avowed by the Right Hon. President of the Boatel of Trade. He MUST say that he was disappointed in afterwards hearing from that Right Hon. Gentleman that his expecta tions o beneficial alterations did not. extend beyond a few minor points. Ile was sorry that he was not prepared to come forward.with some specifia propositions of relief, or at least with a motion for a Committee to endeavour to sin some thing to satisfy the nation. The great principle on which alone any good could be done was, to devise the best plats for giving general employment to the industry el the people : and it was nut by balancing one interest against another that ally real beneficial consequence to the whole could Le produced. Mr. BE.-1 UMONT said, that if the system of-commercial restrictions WM so constructed as to operate partially, and not in aid of the general welfare of the country, it was an-impera tive duty of Ministers . to reconsider it. It was wrong in them to expect the measures of remedy to come from the Opposi tion side of the House. He gave his concurrence most h e artily to any measure for the removal of the restrictive re , golations. Lord MILTON expressed himse".f favourably towards the Petition, and the manner in se-k,- supported. He was also pleased with the Sped;, Right Hon. Gentle man, thought, with some alloy. .. •.is principles and conduct did not seem to be in misers. his Hon. Friend who ;pre ceded him he would reme:e, that this was not a subject on which to consider the interests of particular Constituents.— They were to legislate toe all, and not for Northumberland, Or for Yorkshire. A onion of councils was most imperatively dein:onkel by the state of the Nation, and they were called on to inquire if the restrictions which shackled and injured commerce could be advantageously removed. It was true that these restrictions were not peculiar to us ; fur almost every people had adopted them, as if acting on the line of the poet—Oennis ferat timelier tellies. But the great error lay in this selfish principle, butts as it regarded our rela tions-With other countries, and our situation at home. It seemed to him, that the scrambling of agriculturists for higher prices, and the competitions of mercantile interests Cu meet theta, were equally wrong; since the distress pervaded the country at large it, which agriculture and comment were, . and not these classes in an insulated state. It must, its. his view, be clear to. every one that they could not go on long as they were: The live millions whicb the Right... Hon. Gentle man obtained last year, had failed in its avowed purpose, and the Right Hun. Gentleman had been proved either to have been entirely mistaken., or one of the worse prophets that, ever prophesied in that House. Their true policy now waspfainly pointed out to them by the failure of the past, wherein Ministers had begun at the wrong end. It was not to rush to taxation, but to enable the 'people to pay taxes. In taking a view of tli•distreSs of the country, many Gentle men traced it to _different causes. Among these the Poor's Laws was one of common occurrence, and, he th-ought, ought to lie examined must Minutele. One of the effects of the war had been' to absorb and draw capital into a: smaller number of hands, and thus the great class of lesser capi talists were reduced to that condition which was likely to lay litany additional burdens upon the Poor's Rates. In- this light be must say, that the pressure of the late conflict lied fallen en • the : agricultural labourer and artisan in manufactures, and not on the wealthy landed proprietor . or rich merchant. With regard 'to the restrictive principle,. it appeared to him that at least all_ the minor branches of trade might he left free. Though the navigation Laws, as tending to our national security, aml the Corn Laws for n- extreme importance, might have sa crifices made to them, nothing short of our independonce could sanction the principle. Another matter which must have had great inflnence on our system was the return to cash, paymeots.• This most have augmented the pressure of the times, though perhaps they had not, in their anxiety to attain so desirable an object, looked the difficulties it was calculated to create so fully it, the face as they should have done. There were many other difficulties to be encountered before they could retrace their steps, but whets the subject was so ably and fairly presented, there was more than common grounds for hope that it might be followed up successfully. Mr. BEAUMONT. explained. • Mr. RICARDO defended t'ste return to cash payments. The country reverted to that measure with a degree of ease and facility, wlfich .could scarcely have been expected. He ob jected to the exclusion of agriculture, or any other branch of produce, being excluded from the principles of free anti un restricted competition. If, indeed, the leaded proprietors could.shew that they suffered peculiar. burdens, they would be entitled to the advantage of restrictive measures to put them un- a footing with the other classes. But was this the case ? To he sure the poor rates might he considered a bur den peculiarly pressing on the land, but it was shared by the other classes in a very heavy degree. The owners of houses paid large portions of it; .but then a protectionsfor the price of corn did not affect them. He was far front wishing to re vert to a free system suddenly. Those who hail eMbaiked their capitals in diffeeent branches mf trade under the prohi bitory and restrictive regulations, should have. time to with draw them again. The example of cash payments lie cousi deter! as a perfeet plan for the gradual removal Of partial re• gulations of any kind. The effect was. spreed over a great space of time, and the inconvenieuce felt during such period became in Urnanirer insignificant. Lord MILTON explained. • • • Mr. F.I.LICE supported the prayer of the Petition.. He dif fered from the Holt. Member (Mr. Ricardo) in his estunation cu. the return to:cash- payments, as he considered that the loss was a great deal snore than the difference between the market price of builion amid the rate of payment assigned to the Bank. Oue fact :Indic 'vel.nues. 'Eva) , artlete; except corn, which wa.f protected by prehibitory duties, had fallen since that re tutts front it) to •‘)() per cent, 'The distress and alarm were exce33lve in Scotland. There they bail no poor t rate s bd 3 : England ; the consequence was, that the capitalists wi their property precipitately; while in Lancashire, va iel " deficiency of wages was -wade good by the manufactures kept rather on the increase, and if so' n. r , was nut done, the manufactures of Scotland would be ue ' - ed altogether. poor rat es lki r io MARRYATT was not averse to the prayer or 1 ) 4 pies of the Petition. But he festett,the interests of t he cial department would clash with any proposition wr alt Mr . teraion of the commercial stem WIL'iON feared, that, sy in the . present state o f taxal il much could not be done. It was desirable to consid er . subject with a view to any improvements, but the Va c " method would be to act on particular cases. Mr. BARING, in reply, was surprised at the genweral ► c ' currene6 With the principles of the petitioners, o• c ► enough to make the r House wonder why ttieY had gonefiae long under system so full of - acknowledged defects. " plied to Mr. Iticardo's observations on cash payments• depreciation in the currency of the war, and that on lbe ll sent pliers of articles, made a greater difference in at *,l of the engagement than the Hon. Member seemed to ,'• He conceived that the debt was the great cause of deer sion. In dealing with that, the country was not re l o l , ► .. in fairness, to do more than obsei ve the letter of the sto7 - , went. The return to cash payments, and the consequent preCiation in the value of commodities, amounting to least 25 per cent, was equal to a bargain to pay so 1 " - more. When he saw, as the general result of these, a d creasing revenue and commerce, he could not hut. think the country had undertaken to do more than it was able perform. Mr. ItICARDO rose and said a few words in ex planation', The SPEAKER then put the question, that the Petiti oar lie on the table, when Mr. RICARDO rose again, to beg, if consistent with forms of the House, to add one observation, which was , , t AI inasmuch as the currency, it consisting of two metals, Wu' id , be subject to more variations than if it only consisted of of Il so far he thought the proposition of i is Hon. Friend Wti ii be an improvement. Mr. BARING referred to the French currency in sup of his former statements. • The petition was then ordered to be brought up and l d on the table. _ Mr. FINLAY presented a Petition from the Chainber Commerce of Edinburgh, of a similar nature to the pr ece l lug*, which was brought up, laid on the table, and WW I to be printed. CIVIL LIST: On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the P i CHEqUEZ, the Order of the D.ty for taking inr further consideration the Report of the Cornmit t° on the Civil List having been read, The CHANCELLOR of the I.4.;XCHEQUita (wh° 64 speech was but very imperfectly heard in the gio' lery, on occultly ol the movement and ag itadif il which prevailed in the House) said, that brio ° he should move the Resolution with ,which he i rld tended to conclude, he should offer a few explat iB ' tory observations to the House. air former oe cesium; the object of those explanations had bee f twofold. They hail been given, either to acco" 1 1 for sortie deficiency in the yeaentre of the Ci vi List, compared with its expenditure, and to OV culpate those who he'd its management 5 or t ° show the grounds on which soma new arrang e ment was submitted tor the approbation of rarli a ; ment. By neither of these causes was be I , ° called upon to address the House. There was p ° deficiency to account for, and no new sOmein tt propose for carrying on the Civil Government, f ° the system established in 181 G had proved afire (pate to every purpose. In comparing the s (6 % e , of the Civil List beture, with its condition aff e l l that system had been adopted, it appeared that bad become necessary to apply four times to rill; liament for the payment of its debts, aHd that fo" times during the course of the late reign had Par; 'lament, wit':out any inquiry, voted money fu} that purpose, and incre a s e d the amount of tb e Civil List. 1n.1812, considerable reform had bee/ introduced into the original system. Th e List bad then been divided into classes, and II regular succession established, so that n0r: 4419 ,: was paid till the on e i mm edi a t e ly b e f ore h a d b ee " . fully satisfied. By such a course material ecott ° ' i•..y was attained. He then took a view of th e aerations produced by Mr. But he's Bill. S. lll ; ce i the breaking out of the. French war, the expet°: tore of the Civil List had considerably increatte" and time accounts had been laid before Parliamen ts and submitted to the investigation ail Committe e i The debts of the Civil List had been paid, a" further provision made to augment its asnouot' For several years it did not become necessary to call upon the public for a direct provision to ale e the continual increase of expenditure. The 9°' taken from time Lo time out of the Droits of Atl' miralty proved sufficient for that purpose. Yet 1804, a fresh estimate had been laid by Mr. I before the House, and when, in 1811 and JO" the subject was again brought into considered/ it was found th a t t h e ex p en dit ure exceegie by 124,0001. the Parliamentary allowance.' In 1816 the Civil List bad once more been regt s : lilted. A Committee was appointed on 1 14 Om of April, and did not make its report till the be; ginning of shine, so that the system establish e at that period had been the result of the most ilov i tore deliberation. - The contingent and occasio° payments had then been provided for in a separl manner, and economy had been greatly p ro mote t by the certainty of those payments, whilst 1116 comforts and convenience of the persons who 41t : ^4 pended on the Civil List were equally advance d ' and the distress which had been suffered by th! small pensiOners when several quarters of tu t. Civil List were in arrear, had been entirely r.e"" moved. • The establishment of 1816 might ther e fore be considered as satisfactOry to the-Cro 44ri and economical towards the public, for it tell fs, r short of the estimate formed in 1815, and, 9 9 4 would appear by the papers laid before the House' was less by 150,0001. than the average of di e three preceding years. in calling upon tb e House to approve of time renewal of that est l blishment, he should therefore only recomme o t, that which experience had sanctioned as just ou: efficient, and which provided and preserved proper degmee of controul to prevent the recol . ,: rence of former embarrassments. it was Wende l ' to propose the adoption of the entire es tablis l " . ment of 1816, with the exception of a c o nside r :i able reduction in the first class, which crinsis" of the Windsor Establishment and the s rrivyrule i . e : and hitherto amounted to 298,0001. Time %Vin ti sor Establishment would be entirely reduced ,.s° that a saying of 230,0001 • would take place:l_a that class, which world be burdened with. 0 : other charge than the 60,0001. of the Privy Por, s t ; and some provision for the servants of his Majesty. Having stated thus much, he sh ou . not trouble the House further, as other opPo rs „ a p cities would occur for entering into anyisl ll % n o tion which might be required. He then vg, ) ,: that the first resolution be read a second_ titre ' . Lord J. Russset. rose with conSideLable to oppose the motion, and should have h e _ e ,, l ; poppy if Ministers had taken 'lron theAnselveti I i