The Sun. — London, England, 1842-03-08 00:00:00

~. the subject, he (Sir R thought it inex haustible. Whilst on it that time the Right lion. Gentleman t . subject of equal importance, relative to the ,sub stamps by the Bank of England and other Banks. They sat two sessions on the subject, making altogether nine !sessions. On these grounds he (Sir Robert Peel) thought a new inquiry was unnecessary. Should they, then, appoint a Committee of Inquiry ? He found that no less than eight Mem bers of the Committee who were in the last Parlia ment were not in Parliament now, and of these eight several were amongst the most regular attendants at the Committee, in addition to this the subj ects brought under the consideration of that Committee were of such im portance, that he thought they were m atters with which the Executive Government, rather than a Com mittee, ought to deal. This was purely a matter for the consideration of the Executive Government, and as soon as it was possible it should be considered, and the determination of her Majesty's Government should be laid before the House.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. CHARLES WOOD said he entirely concurred in what had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman. He had asked the question merely because he wished to know what was to be done, and that the answer might go forth. THE TRUCK SYSTEM. Mr. FERRAND said he had been charged with having made assertions which were not correct, and with having charged Hon. Members with making use of , expressions which he never did use. But in s.` . - standing forward in the House, having been deputed by the working classes—(Cries of " Oh, oh")—of the islorth of England, he trusted he should be acting strictly in accordance with the rules and regulations of that House if he took up a little of their time in de fending himself. With respect to Friday evening last he had looked at what. he had previously said in that House, and he found he never used the word " all " at all=that he never did charge the Hon. Member for Stockport with abominable cruelty to his work people; but that he found, was another lapsus lingua of the Hon. Member for Salford, like those he uttered the other night with regard to his print works. The Hon. Member said he employed twenty persons in his print works by night during the last eighteen months, and perhaps that Honourable Member would he obliged to him (Mr. F.) for giving him an opportunity to explain the great distinction which existed between what he asserted that evening and what he found stated by Mr. L. Horner, in the pam phlet which he published. Air. L .11orner was an inspector of factories, and he says that no person could print works without being assisted by others. The process was carried on by a boy, who stood by a pot of colours, and who transferred the colours from the pot to the cloth by means of a brush for the purpose of smoothing the surface ; that was called " colouring," and the person so employed is called the clear boy. The person so employed must per form his work standing, and the air must be rather humid. He would ask the Honourable Gentleman whether, during those eighteen months persons were not so employed morning and evening, to assist the men in the print works, and whether what the Hon. Gentleman stated the other evening was correct, and what Mr. Horner stated was incor rect? The Honourable Member for Wolverhampton read, the other night a declaration signed by seventy-two cotton spinners, and he (Mr. Ferrand) had received a copy of the declaration, together with extracts froni the speech made by him the previous evening in the House. Those cotton' s " spinners say : " We, the undersigned Manufacturers and others engaged in and connected with the Cotton Trade, being subscribers to the Corn-law League, have read with disgust the enclosed extracts from Mr. Ferrand's speech in the House of Commons." — (Cries of " Order, order.") The SPEAKER said, that the Hon. Member was out of order in reading statements made by persons out of the House, in allusion to what had been said in it. Mr. FERRAND—These cotton spinners stated that they kept no truck-shops, and that they did not pay their workmen in any other way than in the current coin of the realm. But he would ask the Honourable Gentlemen opposite, if these cotton spinners did not compel the workmen to take cottages from them, and whether they did not draw their cotton with paste ?—(Oh, oh.) He asked them would they deny what he asserted of their chalies being composed of old rags and devil's dust ?—(Laughter.) They asserted that they kept no truck-shops, and that they did not pay their working people in any other way than in the current coin of the realm. —(Hear.) Now he had never charged them with doing so ; he had never charged them with keeping truck-shops ; he had never charged them with paying their workmen otherwise than in the current coin 9f the realm. But he had said that they evaded the law by their relations keep ing truck-shops, by paying their workmen in the cur rent coin of the realm, and then by stopping them on their way home. 'Eveti silviiosing these 72 cotton spinners, declared by the itight Hon. Member for Wolverhampton to be the principal subscribers to the League—supposing there were 72 just men among the Members of the Anti-Corn-law League, could it be said that these 72 men composed the whole of that League ? lie thought they had boasted that the ramifications of their body extended to every part of the country—that it was a National League—that the manufacturers in Yorkshire, and all over Eng land, Scotland, Ireland, and - Wales had joined them. If that were the case, how happened it that after eight days those members of the League had only denied by a quibble what he had asserted ? He turned over, and he found a circular sent to the _Members of the League from the " Anti-Corn-law Teague at Manchester." That circular was as fol lows :—" You will oblige by affixing your name to the declaration, and returning it at the earliest possible opportunity." In that address which the Hon. ..alember for Wolverhampton had read to the House on Friday night there was not one Yorkshire manu facturer whose name was attached to it. There was not .the name of any manufacturer attached to it who did not reside—at least he believed not one— either in the town of Manchester, or in some other large manufacturing towns, -where they could not, and durst not, carry on the truck system, for this very reason, that the shop-keepers in a mass would rise up against them, and would not allow such a system to be carried on. It was in secret—it was in dark cor ners, that the poor working men were plundered—it was where there were no shop-keepers to rise up and denounce the system as he had done in that House.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) No interup tion would put him down. He was speaking the truth ; and if what he asserted were false, let Hon. Members prove it to be so. But if he did speak • the truth, in the name of the working-classes of England he called on the Hon. Member for Wol verhampton to deny it, instead of devising with the Honourable Member for Oldham, as he bad done, when he ( Mr. Ferrand) had made his second speech upon the subject. the Hon. Member for Wolverhampton went and told the Hon. Member for Oldham, that the assertions made ought to be proved ; but the Honourable Member for Oldham told him upon that occasion, that "he had better leave the matter where it was, for he would himself undertake to prove what Mr. Ferrand had said, and ten times worse."—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) In the name of the working classes of England he called upon the Hon. Member to move for a Select Committee before which he (Mr. F.) would prove everything that he had asserted. He wished the House would allow him to read a letter from a poor man, one of the working classes, who, according to the Hon. Gentleman opposite, were .all in favour of a repeal of the Corn-laws ; and he • thought he could prove the charges he had brought, or drive Honourable Gentlemen to the -worse resort, of seeking a Select Committee. Now this was from a poor working man, and he trusted that those who came to the House pro fessing to be the champion of the poor would listen to his statement. The writer said "It is with the greatest pleasure I read your speech of lust Thursday. It was one of the sort that has long been wanted. But, Sir, though it appears to have struck such a panic amongst them as they (the Anti-Corn-law League) little expected, you did not positively more than half do it. I wish some one on the Con ,servative side of the House would move for a committee to inquire. I feel confident it would strike such an awe over them as that they would not o wn be guilty of such practices. On Monday evening, the 21st last, a meeting of the Anti-Corn-law League • was Nld in the Temperance Hall, when —' he - would g ive the name if required—" was called to the ichair. Now, Sir, this is a spinning master, and keeps -• a large mill in Brown-street. He lives about a mile out of town, in a splendid xnansion on the road." The letter then went on to state that this individual kept about twenty co , - vs ; that he compelled his work-people to have about a quart of milk a day, whether they cou ld drink it or not ; that most of the spinning :masters 'compelled their people to rent cottages of them for which they paid exhorbitant wages. It then continued :—"Now, I will tell you another ras cally trick"—this -is a poor labouring man -" he makes a practice of running his mill p ur n Monday till Saturday, and because s i Satur y, a short day, in which we work only d a nine hours, he only pays the hands for five and uai t v . d ays . I wish you would only give him ati-half 'in the House of Commons on this point. would stop him, and it would I think it on hundreds of poor helpless factory confer a ble ssin gT , because too many of us, owi n g people, helpless, say _ to the coupling of wheels M r . WILLS would 13e glad to know the name. would give it to the Hon. Gen tleman if r FE wh ßß en be sex he wished, he would sat do 101 lolly Min out of the House. Name ! Let him tell the Hon. Gentleman tha t the poor working-men bad suffered so much when they had tried to expose 44%4 cruelties, that if a Committee of Inquiry were lobed Peel) t the subject a i proposed a the issue of appointed, they would hardly dare to come for ward. He would prove that all he had stated was true before he sat down. He had given :an instance of what had occurred in Lancashire, he would now state to the House what had occurred in Yorkshire, in his own neighbourhood. The Hon. Member then read a letter which pur ported to be from a poor weaver residing in Yorkshire who had been employed by a person who kept a shop upon the premises, and in which the working men em ployed by him understood that they were to spend their wages ; the writer of that letter incurred a debt of ten shillings, which he allowed to be liqui dated by a deduction of one shilling a week from his wages. On Saturday, the 19th of February last, his employer deducted the full ten shillings, dis charged him his service, and refused to give him further employment. On the Monday following that poor man applied to a Magistrate for a summons in order to obtain his wages, and the result was the Ma gistrate gave an order that it should be paid, and he (Mr. Ferrand) was happy to say that the Cleric al lowed the poor man the tee for the summons, and thus ended the investigation of the case by the Magistrate. These were Anti-Corn-law League men.—(Laugh ter.) He (Mr. Ferrand) had scores of such facts to lay before the House, and he was prepared to prove them before a Select Committee ; not only that, but the working classes of England were rising up throughout the country to prove every word he stated in that House. What would the House say when he told them that the working classes of Birmingham had assembled the other day, and unanimously passed a vote of thanks to him ?—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Yes, he repeated it, the working classes of Birmingham had assembled and adopted a vote of thanks to him for opposing the conduct of their hard-hearted task-masters.—(Mr. Ferrand then pro ceeded to read the resolutions to which he had alluded.) He would not detain the House with reading the whole of what had taken ,place at that meeting, but he said the people who adopted that resolution were working men, who not only approved of everything . he stated within the walls of that House, but justified it, and declared themselves ready to prove it. Let it not be said that these state ments depended upon him (Mr. Ferrand). Again he challenged Hon. Gentlemen opposite to call for a Select Committee, and if they did not, he would do so. The Noble Lord the Member for London had said that he had understood that he (Mr. Ferrand) had only urged his charges against a limited number of manufacturers. He (Mr. Ferrand) had said that he had brought charges against a large number of manu facturers. On Saturday last he (Mr. F.) had thought it his duty to the Noble Lord, considering the high position which that Noble Lord held, not only in the House, but out of the House, to send him a sample of the calico which was commonly sold to the working classes—(A laugh)—and he (Mr. F.) had also thought it his duty to send a sample of that calico to the Prime Minister of England—(Loud laughter)—that they might have ocular demonstration of the sort of stuff that was sold to the working peo ple ; and he was prepared to prove it. Would Hon. Members opposite contend that calico was not daubed with flour and paste ? He would call upon the Noble Lord to rise in his place and say if ever in all his life he had known such plunder as that which was practised on the poor in this particular ? It was really horrible to behold.—(Cheers and laughter.) The shirting sold to the working people was com pletely daubed over with flour paste. Now he (Mr. Ferrand) would ask if that was true ?—(Cheers and laughter.) If it were untrue was there ever such an opportunity as that now afforded for giving him a contradiction.—(Cheers and laughter.) Was it not the duty of the Legislature to afford these poor people protection. They had sent to him to ask him to claim protection for them from the House. Did he say anything that was unfair ?—(Cheers.) It was well for Hon. Members to smile and cheer, but would those who cheered attempt to contradict him ?—(Hear, hear). It was at the request of the poor people that he had acted as he had done, and if an Hon. Gentleman opposite would take up the cause, he (Mr. Ferrand) would give way.—(Cheers.) He therefore begged of them not to sneer at him.—(Cheers and laughter.) His heart had urged him to do what he had done.—Cheers and laughter.) He besought them to bear with him for the cause he advocated. He would read a letter from the Manchester Guardian, the organ of the Anti-Corn-law League, which had appeared in that paper on Ist December last. (The Hon. Member here read the letter alluded to, which was signed " A Manufacturer," and which stated that one manufacturer paid 7501. per annum more than he had done in 1815 for flour for dressing, in consequence of the operation of the Corn-laws. That letter then went on to state that more flour was consumed in a manufactory in filling up the cloth than was used by the labourers employed in it for food, and con tended that while foreign manufacturers pro , cured their flour for those purposes at a cheap rate, it 'was impotssible that British manu facturers could compete With them without a repeal of the Corn-laws. The reading of this letter was ' met by ironical cheers and loud laughter from the Opposition.) No wonder the price of corn was kept up in the manufacturing districts. Now he would ask llon. Gentlemen opposite would they deny that calico contained paste ? He had taken that letter from their own organ. When he stated that 100,000 quarters of wheat were consumed to defraud the public, more especially the poorer classes, that statement was considerably within bounds. He had deemed it to be his duty, on Saturday last, to inform the Noble Lord, the Member for London, that it would be his duty, in defending himself that evening to refer to a correspondence which took place between the Noble Lord and Mr. Baker, the Superin tendent of Factories. That correspondence was ordered to be printed by the House of Commons, on the 21st of June, 1836. He (Mr. Ferrand) believed that the Noble Lord the Member for London was, at that period, Secretary of State for the Home Department. He (Mr. Fer rand) did not blame the Noble Lord for not being acquainted with the shoddy trade. But he would read to the House the statement of the Sub-Inspector of Factories, which statement was ordered to be printed by that House, as he had stated before, on the 21st June, 1836. He said, addressing his Lordship, " that he had to inform him that his report of Taylor, Ibbotson, and Co. (Anti-Corn-law League-men), having worked their boys twelve and fifteen hours was correct. The district was Dewsbury, in Yorkshire, a neighbourhood thickly populated, depending entirely on the manufacture of shoddy cloth, which was made from woollen rags torn in pieces by a powerful machine, and reduced as far as possible to its original form, and the wool worked again into cloth." Now, he asked Honourable Gentlemen to listen to this, in tearing up these rags a great quantity of dust was emitted— this was called " devils' dust "—so much so that in general persons standing three or four yards apart could scarcely distinguish the other persons in the room, while the machinery was propelled with great velocity. Would they listen to him while he read four or five lines of the Report to which he had alluded, to prove to them the cruelty practised upon the poor while their oppressors defrauded the public ? There was a charge brought against these men before the Magistrates. A charge which the inspector declared the law did not give him official authority to go into. He took it from the mouth of the sufferers themselves, and they stated that on the 27th of September they went to work at six o'clock in the morning, and with the exception of meal hours, and one hour at midnight, they did not cease working till four o'clock on the Saturday afternoon. Did not this justify his charges against these men— men of the Anti-Corn-law League—men who felt so much for the suffering of the poor, and who went for the repeal of the Corn-laws, not for their own benefit, but for the benefit of the people. He would now read five or six lines from the letter of another working man, relative to the shoddy trade, one of those poor men for whom Hon. Gentlemen opposite pretended to feel so much, and to whose letter, there , fore, he (Mr. F.) hoped they would listen. This poor man said, " I am engaged in the shoddy trade in Battely, near Dewbury, I have not seen your last speech on the Corn-laws, but I am told you made some observations relative to the shoddy trade. In every piece made there are three pounds of flour used to stiffen it, which deceives the wearer entirely, and spoils the trade. In another village, about a mile from Dewesbury, there used to be a good trade in the manufacture of paddings and drugget." He (Mr. Ferrand) would ask Honourable Members to listen, and he would tell them how the trade in that village had been lost out of the mouth of this working man —not by the operation of the Corn-laws, but by the behaviour of the manufac turers themselves. The workman went on to say, " they carried this shoddying and stiffening to such a length that the trade was lost. The trade was entirely lost, but a few manufacturers have retired with fort rasixrp u oo n s lna . dd s Theypofrproved voe rw his i r in ns e es statement habit m e epnietcefi. rs,He , of using five or t all @ f r r r oM F t e h r e - A w o n r t k i n C g o rn classes,-law L a e n a a gu t e h , ey th s e i n iou f l r d om now the see m w oi h it a h t s doese f ri th p e . Lion manufacturers. gave of it, and then he should challenge the Hon. Members opposite once more to ask for a Select Committee. (The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to read a letter from a manufact urer , o f Whitney, in Oxfordshire, relative to the ,practice of shoddying.) He would ask Hon. Gentlemen opposite to do him justice, and he would here bear record to the noble exertions of the Hon. Member for Salford on be half of the factory children, and though they were opposed on this question, he (Mr. Ferrand) hoped soon to be able to unite heart and band with that Hon. Member for the preservation of the factory children. He had now only spoken to defend himself from the remarks made against him on Friday last. He felt be had only done hts duty to the working men in England, whom he re presented, and from whom he daily received scores and THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, MARCH 8, 1842 econd time this evening, but that the discussion upon the subject should be posponed until Thursday evening next. SUPPLY.—ARMY ESTIMATES. The House having resolved itselfinToaTonimittee of Supply - , Sir HENRY HARDINGE rose to bring forward the Army Estimates. He said the total number of men for which he proposed to take the estimates this year, was 122,568 ; that number was composed of 5,808 officers, 8,674 non-commissioned officers, and 108,086 rank and file. Last year the numbers were 121,121, therefore as compared to the past year, there was now an addition of 1,447 ; the Canadian regiment which were 1,100, the St. Helena company 330 men, the augmentation to the 3d West India Regiment 330. There was a deduction of about 600 men from that, which would leave the number for the present year about 400 more than they were last year. The Royal Canadian regiment had been composed last year of ten companies, made up from the regiments then in Canada ; the men volunteered, and every man of them had been 15 years in the service. There was to be an addition to the 3d West India regi ment. The Ist and 2d 'West India regiments now consisted of 10 companies, and 1,000 men ; whereas the 3d regiment consisted only of 8 companies, which were now to be raised to 10 companies, consisting of 1,000 men. Each of the three regiments were to contri bute to send a detachment to the western coast of Africa; and it was proposed for this reason, that the officers of these three corps should be augmented by two supernu meraries. But, as officers in that service were liable to have their health impaired, it was agreed, by the Secre tary for the Colonies, the Commander-in -Chief, and the other authorities, that, after they had served a certain period, they should, on their return to this country, be allowed a year's furlough to enable them to recruit their health. It was proposed that two of those battalions if that number were sufficient should be stationed in the Island of Jamaica. He had next to draw attention to the 20th page of the Estimates, in which was a memorandum, stating that it was intended to convert six depots into six second bat ' talions of the same strength as six service companies. The force of the army was now 122,000 men, being 20,000 more than it was six years ago. Since 1830 the numbers had been several times raised and reduced, which proved the pliability of the system, while the number of officers rem a i ne d th e same . But the pressure on the troops of the line had been very severe during the last four years, and it was absolutely necessary that it should be removed. We had twenty-eight battalions in New South Wales, India, and China ; altogether we had seventy-eight battalions abroad, and only twenty five battalions at home—a force that could not possibly , relieve the former to the extent the term of their ser vices required. Forty-two of those battalions were in tropical climates. At the time' of the insurrection we had but nine battalions in North America ; they were afterwards increased to nineteen, exclusive of some house-raised battalions. But in his plan of increasing each depot by making six of them consist of six service companies of 100 men each, these would answer to be sent to six healthy stations, such as Gibraltar, Bermuda, and stations in the Mediterra nean, where they would do the duty as well as second battalions, 'and enable the authorities ashore to relieve those regiments that had been left abroad too long. So then, instead of having 25 battalions ashore, we should have:3l, and, in the event of any sudden demand on the Government in other quarters, six battalions would be found ashore quite ready. The depots would be an ad ditional expense of 9,0001., the first year, but in future, it would be about 3,0001. a year. But to meet an expense of 63,000/. arising from some charges already adverted to, he proposed to reduce six men each from 50 other battalions not employed either in the East Indies or in North America. This would be a reduction of 3,000 men, and of 61,000/. The estimate for 95,600 men was 3,510,7741., being 70,800/. more than that of last year. The greater part of this expense would be on account of certain changes in the West Indies, but some would be on account of the St. Helena corps. On the whole, there would be an increase of about 120,0001., but there would be to meet this, a reduction of 49,0001., of which 33,0001. would be on account of provisions for the troops in Aus tralia and Canada, where the return to agriculture had cheapened food. There was a slight increase on the good conduct pension, the recipients being now 4,648 men ; but there were also 7,000 having marks for good conduct who had also increased pay. The next vote was 20,000/. for libraries at home and abroad ; these libraries he stated had given the greatest satisfaction. The entire vote for the land force was, therefore, 3,581,5751. The Military College involved an expenditure of 17,000/. a year, but this did not fall on the public, as it was sustained by the friends of the ca dets who were sent there. A small expense, however, of 575/. had been incurred for some additional buildings that had been found necessary. The total vote for the effective service, therefore, including the school of the Military Asylum, and the expense of the volunteer corps, was 3,928,961/. The next votes related to the non-effec tive service, in which the item of the pay of general officers was 98,0001., an increase of 13,0001. occasioned by the pro motion. Pay for retired officers 66,000/.,being a decrease of 15,000/. ; for half-pay, 470,000/., being a decrease of 25,0001. 'Within the last twenty years the number of officers on the half-pay list had considerably diminished, and there were now upwards of 3,000 on half-pay, a large proportion of whom would be no more fit for ser vice. The decrease in the number of officers, since the Peace, was 6,745, and the decrease in charge 618,000/. The foreign half-pay this year was estimated at 58,0001., being a decrease on last year of 2,175/. The widows' pension fund this year would require 141,000/. For pen sioners, at Chelsea and elsewhere, 1,251,414 L, being a decrease of 7,492 t. The decrease in the number of re gular pensions since the year 1820 was 17,000/., and the decrease in expense was 107,000/. 10,0001. had been taken for last year, in order to make another ar rangement for the number of the pensioners. The grant they required for the superannuated list was 41,000/., being a decrease of 2,0004 The whole charge for the non-effective service was 264,000/, being 38,0001. less than last year ; and the whole charge for the effective ser vice was 3,963,000/. The total grant required was 6,193,000/., being an increase on the grant of last year of 34,829/. He hardly knew whether any further explanation would be expected from hint. With the best intention to carry on the military affairs of this nation with the strictest regard to economy, ho trnsted the House would agree with him, that efficiency was tnebest economy. He ha 4 now to move that the land forces be increased to 95,628 amen. In the course of the present year a number of battalions would return to this country, so that by the end of the year the number of battalions here would be 32 instead of 25, as at present. Lord HOWICK, who spoke in an unusually low and indis tinct tone, said that he had no objection to the vote which had just been put into the hands of the Speaker, and all that he would take the liberty of doing was to make a few observations on one or two points in the speech of the Right Honourable and Gallant Gentleman. With respect to the augmentation to be made in the West India regiments, he heard the statements of the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer with great pleasure. No person could doubt the policy of increasing those corps, and preventing thereby the great mortality that ensued among the men. He hoped the state of the barracks in the West Indies would be also improved. The Right Hon. Gentleman knew to what he alluded, and the frightful sufferings that ensued from the state of the barracks. The Right Hon. and Gallant Officer had said that efficiency was in these things true economy. He (Lord H.) perfectly agreed with him, and he believed there was no greater extravagance than to allow British soldiers to remain for thirty-five years in such a climate as the West India Islands. The Noble Lord then referred to the proposed measure of the Gallant Officer (Sir H. Hardinge with regard to the advantage of an increase of six regiments, but in so low a tone that we could not catch the precise import of his opinion. We understood him to say that he thought the matter might be better left to the Executive, and that he did not agree to the arrangements made with respect to the Colonels. He confessed that it appeared to him that the arrangement made by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite was for the purpose of keeping up a system which he believed in prac• rice was liable to great inconvenience. Two battalions were to be sent to certain healthy garrisons. Now he thought that all regiments ought to take their equal proportions of good I lneam e t eana thought d, othtetho en t e h a h t he great proposed arrangementr relief li fs proposedowmo dt time by a no t e. e ,G s. tfe,nti and t g h iv e e n R b i to d h t t h e l e H im l o i ago ha d been carried into effect. The Right Hon. Gentleman stated that a number of libraries had already been esta blished, and also that the soldiers were ready to avail them selves of the opportunity of self-instruction thus offered to them. This was undoubtedly a subject of congratulation. Upon the whole he felt that the vote which the Right Hon. Gentleman demanded was one which, under the circumstances, the House should have no hesitation in granting.—(Hear. ) Lord ARTHUR LENNOX was glad the Right Hon. Gentleman had announced his intention of making an increase in the Army; and he only regretted that that increase was not larger. Looking to the state of our relations with China and India, and to the unfortunate feeling of jealousy which existed towards this country—looking across the Atlantic, and to the frightful sources of misunderstanding between the United States and this country, he was afraid they would not long enjoy the blessings of peace. He did not think either that the forces could now be relieved as often as was desirable. There was another subject to which he wished to allude, and one of the greatest importance to the Army—he meant the retiring pensions to the soldiers. He did not think that, after 25 years' service, a miserable pittance of 6 d. a day was a sufficient compensation for the labou rs and perils of such a service. He would call the. attention o f the. Committee to the fact that feel it his duty, as long as he For his own part, he should ever his hu mble voice in favour of had a seat in that House, to r aise these men were for the most p rn ar o t st to l fa ar il t y h u ro n k a e b n le in to e o o b n t s a t p tu t t h io e n ir own livelihood, being for the. the old soldiers in the army. There was one question which he dthe six to be suppli e d to ofp elannneyea: It was with respect to the a wished to put to the R was to be done with those wished to know what six depots. He were reduced. He would sug ight Hon. and Gallant Officer opposite. accoutrements when the depots f a ad day . to the pay of lance-corp o rals, day d To g that one ° I stripes. He thought that would serjeants, for their a dditional conduct regulations. be an admirable adjunct to the good and Gallant Officer's Mr. MACAULAY said the Hon. Best before he sat down, the p ropriety o f He estimate was so unexcepti onable, that desired, howeveddress r, to have House as shortly as possibl e. some explanation with respect to the proposed remuneration to six colonels of infantry' The report stated that 1,000/. he would a the d add 250/ a year in the case informed why it was propose d in question. With re-pert to the Canadian plan, he (Mr. Ma caulay) should say that there was a much better chance of sue a year was a sufficient allowance. He wished, therefore, to be cess by the proposed plan than if the Right Hon. Gentl eman he wished to ask the Right Hon. further to say, except t hat respect to the Lunatic Asylum at Gentleman a question with state---in • disgraceful s a e —in an absolutely Chatham, which was in a had half soldiers and half cultivators. He had ng Gentleman (Sir H. Hard' know whether the Right Hon. Inge) izin the Chelsea pensioners. f. had taken any means of reoraao sai E said the subject o the Lunatic Sir HlslltY HARDING rs, he was sorry to s a y th a t t h e state of that Institution was such as to Asylum at Chatham had no t esca p ed his notice • ' and with respect to the Chelsea pens ione rs, change of its constitution n ecessar y as soon as p o ssible. He hoped that the number of men in the E ast I n di es and North America in would a short ti me di m i n i sh under circumstances of more tranquil times. With regard to the hint thro wn out b y the Noble Lo rd oppo site (Lo r d Howick) as to hi s p lan of de p o ts , he (Sir Henry Hardinge) must obser ve, that he had seen t h e w h o l e o f t h e Noble Lord's arrangements, and he did not think that the Noble Lord's depot would be so effective as his (Sir H. Har dinge's) would. - The Duke of Wellington co ncurre d i n th a t opinion also. He (Sir H. Hardinge) was not aware that he had any further remark to make on the statement , of the Noble Lord, excepting one assertion of his . respecting barracks in the West Indies, which the Noble Lord stated to be in a most disgraceful state. When, in 1840, Lord Vivian was Master-General of the Ord nance, a motion had been made for the production of papers on this subject, he (Sir H. Ilardinge) asked whether there was any foundafion for the disgraceful state in which the barracks in the West Indies were described to be. The Master-General assured the House that the barracks in the West Indies were M an admirable state. In the following year (1841) the Master-General was placed in the Upper House, and he thought the Noble Lord ought to have avoided such a remark in Lord ViTian's absence. All the reports he had heard of these bar racks gave a description of them diametrically the reverse of that of the Noble Lord. In reply to the observations of the Noble Lord (A. Lennox) behind him, he stated that the batta lions would be disposed of and managed, as regarded their accoutrements, as heretofore. Lord JOHN RUSSELL remarked, with respect to the plan of depots, that the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman ap peared totally to have abandoned the plan of depot companies. He gave up the advantage of a certain number of places at home where recruits might be received, and a certain propor tion of officers retained. He did not wish to enter into any controversy as to the plan of the Hon. and Gallant Member, who was fully competent to consider a question of this kind; his long experience in military affairs, and in the civil direction of matters of this nature, hilly entitled him to great con sideration when he brought forward a plan which he thought best under present circumstances. Considering the last, explanation mado by the Right Honourable Gen tleman, and the circumstances of the case, he thought the present plan was most wise. If a general plan an general grounds were proposed, he might alter his views, but in the present instance he did not wish to say he had a different opinion from the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer. He was glad to hear that there were to be only two battalions in Jamaica, and that there was to be a permanent barracks. No thing, in his opinion, was more advantageous than that the troops in the West Indies should be placed in as healthy situa tions as were consistent with the defence of tnose islands. Some correspondence had taken place between the Ordnance Department and the Secretary of State with respect to the barracks in Barbadoes ; but he would allude to the subject when the Ordnance Estimates came before the House. Sir H. HARDINGE defended the system of depots he ; proposed, and adduced the authority of the Duke of Welling ton, who assigned, as one of his reasons, that in case of emer gency they could be raised into battalions. Lord II OWICK considered the present system was, as far as the West Indies were concerned, an abandonment of the depot system. Mr. WILLIAMS asked the Secretary at War if the ex penses attending the army in China were included in the Es timates? Sir HENRY HARDINGE said that no part of the ex penses of the Chinese Expedition was included in the Esti mates. The expenses of that expedition would have to be settled between the East India Company and the Government, and would he provided for under the head of Army Extraor dinaries. Mr. WILLIAMS was not surprised at the agreement in opinion between the present and the late Secretary at War and the Noble Lord the Member for London, seeing that there was no great difference between the Army Estimates this year and the last. He thought the expenses of the army in China ought to have been included in these estimates. He protested against the plan of voting these estimates before they had considered the ways and means, and thought it would have been a pre ferable plan for the Right Hon. Baronet, at the head of the Government, to have made his financial statement before these estimates had been voted. The great charge against the late Government was that they had expended a much larger sum than the amount of the revenue. It was true that Government had done so, and the late Chancellor of the Exchequer had proposed an addition of 10 per cent. to the taxation, to make good the deficiency. What was the result ? Why, it was found that the people would pay no more taxes, and the consequence was that instead of realising two millions and a half, there was a considerable falling off of the revenue after these taxes were added. He thought the House ought to know how those monies were to be raised. The revenue was short last year, and all the votes required were larger than in the previous year. The forces this year were larger than they had been any year since 1817 ; now such being the case, he should like to know what there was in the present position of the country to require a larger military force than was required during the last twenty-four years? The Hon. Gentleman oppasite had spoken of , the re lations of this country with America and France. Now, for his own part, he saw nothing in those relations, if properly managed, that was calculated to lead to hostilities. In 1822 the number of the military force was 30,000 less than that proposed for the present year. There was nothing, in his opinion, to warrant the large increase in the army in the p re - I sent year, as compared with other periods. He should, there fore, propose that the number of men for the home service should be reduced by 11,000, so that the estimates under this head should be placed on :the same footing as in the year 1837. If any of the number of men proposed for the home service were destined for the war in China, he might not now have proposed such a reduction ; but he had distinctly understood that such was not the intention of the Right Hon. Gentleman.—(" No, no.") He understood that such was the case. He submitted, however, that as we had unfortunately entered into the Chinese war it should be carried on with vigour, as the most likely means to bring it to a speedy termination. Now, after 21 years, the amount of half-pay was nearly the same. At the former period, it was 2,264,1341., now it was but 5,0001. less, he meant for the retired allowances al together. The officers on effecctive service were 5,808; there were 385 retired on full pay ; 504 foreign officers, exclusive of those the number of officers on half-pay was 5,118 ; what ne cessity was there for so large a number on half-pay? The num ber of Captains on full-pay was 1,347 ; on half-pay 1,187 ; of lieutenants on full-pay, 1866; on half-pay 1461, of whom lie was sure a large number would be very glad to be put on full service; but they had no parliamentary influence to get them on.—(" Oh.") He knew, this was the reason.—(" Oh.") He thought the number of general officers too large, and there had lately been a promotion. There were 452 general officers, that was four general officers to every regiment of the line ; he should like to know what necessity there was for this num ber. The Army of the United States consisted only of 12,000 men, but they had only three officers. He thought the allow ance for pensions, and allowances to widows was very large. It appeared that there were 2,950 widows receiving pensions; whether they were bestowed on representations made of some services performed by the deceased officer, or whether granted to the widow of every officer of a certain rank, he - did not know, and should like to be informed. The sum granted for pension was 371,0001. ; it of course held out an excellent op portunity for old military gentlemen to get young wives, but it was very hard for the country to be called upon to pay such ; a sum as this. It might be unpleasant to the many military gentlemen in the House, to hear such remarks, but in the pre sent dilapidated state of the finances, he thought it his duty to state them. The whole amount of the half-pay was 2,264,000/. and there was a deficiency in the revenue of nearly three millions; how it was to be raised he knew not. Thera might be a great reduction in this branch without injury to the public service. In the French army there was no such thing, and the consequence was, that officers of high rank were obliged to turn their attention to other means of support. The three regiments of Horse Guards, commonly called House hold Troops, consisted of 1,308 men, and they cost the country 85, 0 001 , The pay of these three regiments was 24,100/. more than the pay of any three regiments of cavalry, consisting of an equal number of men. The three regimenta of Goot Guards consisted of 5,287 men, and they received 39,8181. a-year, being 16,9181. more than wss received by any three regiments of the line, consisting of an equal number of men. He could see no reason why the regi ments of Horse and Foot Guards should be better paid than other cavalry and infantry regiments, for their duties, so far from being more onerous, were much lighter than those de volving on regiments of the line. He should, therefore, move that the second vote in the estimates be reduced by 16,918/., being the amount of the difference between the pay of there giments of the guards and the cavalry and regiments of the line. With regard to the Horse Gu ar d s , h e b e li e ved they did not serve except in Belgium.—(Cries of " Spain.") That was before.—( Laughter.) At all events, the regiments of the line were moved about, and the Lfficers of those regiments were sub ject, in consequence, to great additional expense. The pay of Colonels in the Horse Gaurds was 1,8001. a-year, while the pay of Colonels of regiments of the line was only 900/. Colonels of the Foot Guarcs had 1,2001., while Colonels of infantry regi ments of the line had only 6001., and there were 36 with only 5001. The disproportion between Lieutenant- Colonels was also great. The pay of the soldiers of the Horse Guards was Is. 11 1 / 2 d, that of regiments of the line ls. 3d. ; the pay of the Foot Guards is ls. Id., that of the regiments of the line ls. But the cost in the maintenance was equally disproportionate. The cost for the Horse Guard is 681., which is 211. more than was paid to the cavalry soldier in the regiments of the line. 'There was another vote, to which he had a decided objection, and with respect to which he should divide the House, he al luded to the charge for the Yeomanry Cavalry ; he could see no necessity for that, and therefore he should vote against it. He wished to know whether any part of the 95,000 men were in tended for China, because if they were not, he should move that 11,000 should be struck off the proposed number. Sir 11. DOUGLAS was not at all surprised at the mild tone taken by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, because he was sure they must be sensible that the course adopted by his Right Hon. and Gallant Friend to meet the present exigencies, ought to have been adopted long ago , b y th ose w h o were at the time in power. Such a course ought to have been pursued at the time of the rebellion in Canada. He would now come to the Chinese war, and he would say that for many years past the strength of the British army had never been such as to enable the Commanders to perform the services required of them, and the force now was totally inefficient. With regard to the war in Affghanistan, he was of opinion that it was the insufficiency of forces which compelled the military officers there to act in suds a manner as they would not otherwise have done ; and be charged those who did not then increase the forces, that they had forced officers who knew their duty, and who knew it well, to deviate from the rules of warfare, and to do that which they knew not to be safe. He therefore congratulated the Secretary of War for what he had now done ; but he (Sir H. Douglas) thought that the measures now proposed should have been taken long before. He should make no more obser vations on this point. He should now touch on what had been said relative to the means of improving the character and comfort of the British soldiers ; and here he must congratulate the Hon. Member for Sunderland, the late Secretary of War, inasmuch as not one request which he (Sir H. D.) had made, to that Noble Lord relative to the improvement of the soldier was neglected by him. When he (Sir H. D. ) was Governor- General of the lonian Islands, there was only one chaplain in the whole force, and he had seen soldiers dying in the hos pitals praying in vain for spiritual relief. He had represented this to that Noble Lord, who had added another chaplain to the service ; he then asked for four Roman Catholic Chaplains, and the Noble Lord sent them three. He ( Sir H. D.) was of opinion that means ought to be taken to instruct the soldier. He had always observed that the man who took to his books made the better soldier. He was also of opinion that some system should be introduced and established in every regiment to enable the soldier to save his money. He had introdnced a savings' bank in his own regiment (the 52d Light Infantry), and in a very shot t time there was 5001. deposited in it. The Regiment, however, was soon after broken up, an d th a t money was returne d to t h e soldiers ; but he regretted to say that many irregularities were the consequence of the money being returned, and in some instances he was sorry to say that Courts-Martial had to be held. He was sure that the Hon. and Gallant Member for Marylebone, who so eloquently depicted last evening the effects of the want of a full complement in his service, would feel the necessity of a full complement in the army. But he did not think that if a French fleet had come upon the Eng lish fleet, they (the English fleet) would have. been beaten, He thought the Hon. Member's practice would go against his words, and that the gallant men on board the Powerful would not have given way before a French fleet. Sir C. NAPIER said he did not wish it to go forth to the country, or to be generally understood that the British navy would not ha. -, e done their duty, and have done it well, if they got into action with the enemy ; but he did maintain, and he would tell the House and the country, that he conscientiously believed that if the British navy had come into contact with the French after they had begun their operations in Syria and got sickly, though they would have done their duty to the utmost of their power, they would have been beaten.--( Hear.) Hon. Gentlemen should not attempt to depreciate their enemies. He.. in would re mind the House of what took place America. when they held the Americans in contempt, and sent over an manned navy (they had a civilian for the First Lord of the Admiralty then) and the British flag was tarnished. Sir THOMAS TROWBRIDGE said he could not concur in the opinion that if the British fleet had been attacked in the Mediterranean it would have been defeated. There were at that time 750 supernumerary marines at the disposal of that fleet, who could have been put on board those ships if required, mad he (Sir Thomas Trowbridge) confidently stated that the result of any action with the French fleet would be very diffe • rent from what had been stated by the lion, and Gallant Gen tleman. He thought his Gallant Friend's ideas were quite extraordinary, and he must say that he had been much aston ished to hear so many Naval Officers speaking in such a way as not to uphold but altogether depreciate the character of the British Navy. On another occasion he should speak more at length on this subject. Sir C. NAPIER wished to explain. There never were 750 marines at their disposal. There were 250 marines, but that did not supply the deficiency, for they were 100 men short, and had 134 sick. The Gallant Officers there did not know what it was to be beaten. He did.—(Laughter.) He was beaten once by the French fleet, when he was under-manned. He was beaten ; his mainmast knocked down ; and if the French had stuck to him, he should not have been there now. Captain LAYARD wished to know if it was the inten tion of the Government to make any alterations as to the time when soldiers might obtain a free discharge. He had been informed that at present, after having served ten years, a cavalry soldier could obtain his discharge by paying 211., and an infantry soldier by the payment of 151. After 12 years' ser•• vice, a cavalry soldier must pay 151., and an infantry'soldier 10/. for his discharge. After 14 years' service, a cavalry soldier must pay 191. arid an infantry soldier 51. After 15 years' ser vice the cavalry soldier must pay 61. and the infantry soldier gets a free discharge. He (Capt. Layard) believed it would add to the benefit of the service, if, after 10 years, an in fantry soldier might claim a free discharge. He believed that, considering the position of the country at present, that it was absolutely necessary that there should be more men. If anything should occur in India, our forces would, no doubt, be attacked by the Burmese, and the probability was we should be defeated. Sir H. HARDINGE said the improvements which were proposed would have the most beneficial effect upon the army. i _Many fathers of families, who had formerly prevented their sons from entering the army, were now infinitely more inclined to let their sons enlist. With regard to the pensioners it was a I very difficult question. He had already frequently expressed his sentiments in that House and elsewhere upon that subject. They were reduced 17,000/. since 1829, yet the question in , volvedso many grave and serious considerations, and more par ticularly considering the state of the finances of the country, the question deserved the most serious attention of Govern ] ment.--( Hear, hear.) In 1829 when he first formed his war ' rant it was submitted to the then Government with the Duke of Wellington at its head, and they gave their concurrence to that plan ; with r egard to the amendment of the Hon. Mem ber for Coventry, he (Sir H. Hardinge) hoped he would not press it to a division. With regard to the pensions of half-pay officers, there was a very large reduction. Out of 17,426, nearly one-third had died, the diminution in the public ex penses was 618,9001. He could go through the estimate, giving an account in detail, but it would really occupy the time of the Committee too much, if he were to attempt to answer every question of the Hon. Gentleman. There were no less than 6,745 officers who had died off the half-pay list, and he hoped that would satisfy the appetite—(A laugh)—of the Hon. Gentleman, opposite (Mr. Williams). The present number of troops are not kept in this country merely to keep down disturbance, but it was proposed to increase them on ac coont of the pressure which was so great upon them abroad. That pressure was so great, that many regiments had been fifteen and twenty years in India. Was that a fit or a proper state of things ?—( Hear, hear.) It was to relieve that pressure that the increase of troops was proposed; it was absolutely re quested both for the efficiency of the service and to secure to the troops that humane and generous support which they ought to receive.—( Hear.) ' Viscount HO WICK, who spoke in a very inaudible tone of voice, was understood to say that this question should be con sidered with reference to the finances of the country. lie was rejoiced to see that the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer was now satisfied with the effect of the warrant of 1833. The con cluding observations of the Noble Viscount were inaudible in the Gallery. Sir H. HARDINGE said the Noble Viscount must have misconceived what he stated, as to pensions ; his opinions had undergone no change. When he brought the subject under the consideration of the Government of that day, they had ap proved of his (Sir H. Hardinge's) plan. However he was satisfied that a great modification must take place even in the existing warrant, and he still reiterated the opinion, that the warrant proposed by Sir J. Cam Hobhouse was very moderate. Lord J. RUSSELL said that when the Right Honour able Gentleman stated that Sir J. Cam Hobhouse's warrant was insufficient, it was to be hoped he (Sir H. Hardinge) would not fall into the error of falling back upon the former warrant, and giving soldiers retiring pay whose conduct did not entitle them to it ; he (Lord J. Russell) had received let ters from several Colonels in the army, complaining that men who had conducted themselves in an improper manner were intitled to, and had received pensions, just as well as if they had been persons of good conduct. Mr. WILLIAMS did not understand what the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir H. Hardinge) meant by expressing a hope that the death of so many half-pay officers should satisfy his (Mr. Williams's) appetite.—( Laughter. ) He did not know what that meant, but he supposed it was a military term— ( Laughter I —however, he was sent there by his constituency, and when he saw the state of distress and destitution in which the country was placed, he did not think that the Army should be exempted from duties which they had formerly performed ; he objected to all further taxation, and he had also to state that he was not at ail satslied with explanation which the Right Hon. Gentleman had given with regard to officers on half-pay. He had met many of those gentlemen in all ranks and stations of society, and he knew that many of them were most anxious to serve— their health and constitution enabled them to do so; but he (Mr. Williams) dared say that in consequence of the number of applications for ensigncies, that were from time to time made to Hon. Gentlemen who had the disposal of these situations, it might have been deemed expedient not to call upon the services of retired officers ; however, these were the things which in creased the public expenditure.—( Hear, hear.) Still after the statement of the Right Hon Gentleman opposite, that such a large force was absolutely required for the public service, he (Mr. Williams) would not feel himself justified in proposing any amen d ment , an d h e would then fore withdraw his motion.—( Hear.) The motion was then withdrawn. Mr. O'CONNELL wished to make one observation in re ference to the Canada question. He had lately, upon more oc casions than one, the necessity of calling the attention o f th e House to the party s pi r it, o f a very violnt description, which existed among the Militia corps in Canada. Now there was nothing more remarkable among the soldiery of this country than their total abstinence from all party spirit. In Ireland and other places, whenever the military happened to be called upon, they never upon any occasion whatever evinced the least prejudice or party feeling ; it was not so in Canada or amongst the local soldiery there. Now, if it was intended to raise the corps in Canada, that evil would not be sufficiently guarded against. Sir H. HARDINGE—The men are British soldiers. Mr. O'CONNELL—Then the recruiting is not to be in Canada ? Sir H. HARDINGE—No. Mr. O'CONNELL then stated, since that was the case, the objections he was about to make were removed. On the vote being proposed that 3,500,000/. be granted for the expenses of her Majesty's land forces for the ensuing year, Mr. WILLIAMS moved an amendment that that sum be reduced by 63,980/., on account of the extra pay given to her Majeaty's Horse and Life Guards. Sir H. HARDINGE said before the Hon. Gentleman per sisted in dividing the House upon his amendment, he ought to be aware that for the last twenty-five years th a t question had been considered as determin e d both in Parliament and in Com mittee,:and also by those who were termed the Liberal party. On the whole it had been taken that the Guards had always per formed their duties in London in a most efficient manner. The residence of a soldier in London was much more expensive than country quarters. Its fact, it was well known and ad mitted that the officers of the Guards had given their services to the country almost for nothing.—( Hear, hear.) In the field, as well as for their subordination to the civil authorities of the country, and the admirable manner in which they invariably conducted themselves, there was no body of men more dis tinguished than her Majesty's Guards—(Hear, hear)—nor better adapted to the performance of their duties. Under such circumstances he hoped the Hon. Gentleman would not press his amendment to a division. Colonel RAWDON said he would walk out of the House if the Honourable Member for Coventry pressed his motion to a division. With • regard to the addition to the expenses upon the country, which had been alluded to, he should state that the difference between an ensign's pay and the pay of an officer of the same rank in the Guards was only three-pence a day; when the Committee remembered that an officer in the Guards was obliged to live in London at great expense, in his own lodgings, having not the benefit of me ss —h av i ng not t h e benefits of barracks, or fuel, or light, or any of those other ad vantages which were afforded to officers of the Line, he was sure the Hon. Member for Coventry must see that three-pence a day for an officer of the Guards beyond the pay of an officer of the Line was very insufficient.—( Hear, hear. ) Ile believed that the difference between the pay of a Lieuten ant of the Line and one of the Guards was 10d. per day. The higher the rank of each officer, of course the larger his pay and the greater the difference. It must be notorious to every one that in London the expenses of an officer were much greater i than in other places, and the pay of those quartered there ought accordingly to be higher. However, of course it was for the House to decide the question. Colonel THOMAS WOOD said that whatever might be the advantages which the Household troops possessed, they well earned them. It was not for him to draw any comparisons be tween the various branches of her Majesty's troops ; but he must say that the Household troops were as good and as efficient as any branch of the troops in her Majesty's service. Mr.WIi.LIAMS had only referred to the difference between the pay of the officers of the Line and of those of the Guards. He had not raissd any question whether they were paid too much or too little, nor had he made any observation relative, to the conduct of the Guards. Ho wever , h e was not aware that the Household troops were in any degree superior to those of the Line, and he should divide the Committee on the vote. Captain BERKELEY requested the Hon. Gentleman not to press his amendment to a division. If he did so, he (Capt. B.) should vote against him. The Committee divided, when there appeared-- For the motion For the amendment l2 Majority —132 The vote was then agreed to. The following votes were then agreed to :- 166.922/. for defraying the charges and expenses of general staff officers. 82,467/. allowance for the principal public officers of the Military Department. 5301. for repairing the damages done to the Military College by the thunder-storm in May, 1841 ; and 15,0901. for defray ing the expenses of the Royal Military Asylum and the Hiber nian Military Schools. On the vote that 82,458/. be granted to her Majesty for de fraying the charges of the Volunteer Corps being put, Mr. WILLIAMS said that he would take the sense of the Committee on that vote. If Mr. Hume were in the House, he would have pressed the motion to a division. The Committee then divided, and the numbers were— For the grant .................... .... 133 Against it Majority for the grant .............. —ll6 The vote was then agr ee d to. The following votes were then put, and agreed to without discussion : 98,000/. for the pay of general officers. 6ti,000/. for the full-pay of retired officers of her Majesty's Lnd forces. 472,0001. for the half -pay and allowances of retired officers of her Majesty's land forces. 58,4331. for the half-pay and reduced allowances of the officers of the foreign corps. On the vote o f 141 ,4931. for the pensions and allowances to the widows of officers, Mr. WILLIAMS said, perhaps the Gallant Officer would have no objecti on to explain the principle on which these pensions were granted. He was more particularly induced to ask this question, from observing that a great number of the recipients were widows of officers of low rank. For instance, there were 824 widows of lieutenants, and 245 of ensigns and cornets. H e w i s h ed to know whether they w ere the widows of officers who h a d d i ed i n actual servicu, or after they had retired. Sir H. HARDINGE stated unless he officer had retired on half-pay, for wounds or infirmities contracted in the service, the widow was not entitled to a pension; or if he retired after t w a ' s e e n ty the years o s . e r i‘ v i i e c n e i , b t e l r i e h n a t d h a e l w u i d d e o d w t ( 7 . a s o f a a l s n o o e l d o t iotffil e e d e . r ro T t t! rsing, and thus entailing a heavy expense on the c cuntr y ,: barred by the regulation that if an officer married after the al of sixty, his widow was not entitled to a pension. IloAtilor.urCablieljtT G E e l n ti tl h ei a n d an bee o nv ;o •at i c te h:ng bu fo t r a t s h e h e en ttrvaanscen of r , his place ; he must throw i himself on the court,!:. of th e Hou se , as h e w i s h e d to state a fact r elst to she character of a gentleman. the NavyH H E A st R i mDaltNGeswEo would i emoamteedotno duringthe he e ntlman w tt i e l s evening, e he would have the opportunity of making his statement. Mr CURTEIS acceded to the proposition.l. The following grants were th en severally agreed to : 1`20,01, for the insrease of allowances consequent on the p osusti o . e : 1,251,414/. f or d e f ray i ng th e c h arges o f Chelsea and Kil ts ham Hospitals. e of 41,0001. for allow ances an d compe n sations in the oati!rs, superannuations, and re ti re d a ll o wances to persons formerly be longing to the civil establishments of the army. Mi. WILLIAMS cou ld no t h e l p b e i ng s t r uck with the jars sum Sir set H down to the retired clerks. . HARDINGE stated that they were amost deservthireir class of men, and mentioned the case of Mr. 31oore, the br of Sir J. Moore, who, because he was obliged to reside T it o f voluntarily and from patri o ti c mo ti ves , resigned a pen' s° 800/. per annum. The vote was then agre ed to. THE NAVESTIMATS. teil h e isras On the motion that a sum not exceeding E 2,950/. ' , t he a re' to her Majesty to defray the exp enses o f t h e office for gister of merchant seaman, at 01 Mr. CURTEIS said he would n o t t rou bl e the hol t , ha' greater length than he could av o id, b u t cons idering t t ra s ''velled ratter of a young man of importan ce , an d having tet hat sixty miles for the purpose of vi n di ca ti ng it, he t ras „ es ch of the House would grant him a pati en t h ear i ng . The ;f a ted i 0 the Gallant Captain opposite (C a pt a i n R ous ) rer the Morning Chronicle in reference to Mr. Elton, a . : l from incorrect. In the first place he diff ere d ver y mater sea be the Gallant Captain, the Member f or W es tminster , "' hos or stated that the Admiralty had not supported the died ten et the Navy by remitting the remaining portion of the s ee era llSt He believed that he spoke the sentiments of society g ea , and the world at large, when he declared that "oil their convict ion that the sentence originally tha t th e upon Mr. Elton was an unnecessa r ily severe one, ants 'Son m Admiralty had exercised a sound and j u dicious discre toos extending their clemency to that g en tl eman . He wa s a pt ' ll with the Gallant Officers of th e N av y, a s to the " fs sri etiquette displayed by a Midshipman, i n r equesting a - 0 ,0 not from a commanding officer, but from a supert e . r ss si o , in the Navy. The appli ca ti on was ma d e by a alidslur s, a gentleman, who had v er y recently been made a Captie; St't who had served as Lieutenant in a ship .in win' s , tt, Elton was Midshipman. It was an application, ne t IP' Gallant Captain had stated, th a t h e wou ld grant s sf is to a gentleman who was travelling on the coast d o e! but that he would allow a boat, after convent* e , Williams to his own ship, to proceed from thence totbasitioall of Syria, which would have occupied twenty minutes a t a l itha tie j , 4 time. No answer was returned to the application , „Or it was proved to be not an unreasonable one, by the liae one of the Lieutenants of the ship, viva yore, made t o ll , request to Captain Williams, and was refused. fle s d e( surprized that Midshipmen of th e Navy s hould draw , ig - up bt slaves, when such servile marks of distinction were kePt updet tween the Captains of the Navy and those who we,r i ebiritse j ; their command. He begged to say that those Al i " o eta' had the same feelings as their superior o ffi ce rs ; that , g` g atitf,j speaking, they were their equals i n bi r th and h is; , and that there ought not therefore to -e of 6e. ; a distinction between them that a young u e/t A a Midshipman, might not in the most polite terms tria` saa el!) • request as had been made in this case. Th e favour T o rtsi i o was of the most trivial description ; had he (;11r' 1d , been a traveller in that part of the world, he W e 'c a tio' thought it ungenerous and most unkind of anY f a sst if y " in the Navy to deny to him so slight a t, ,, Not only in his (Mr. Curteis) vi ew of t ' - 0 ter had he erred greatly, Sin refusing to e xtend s he a favour to a brother officer. Previou s t o this af fait g ed i h r s i not known either of the parties concerned. Having, he " o s Elton since, and thinking his case one of hardsn'Plie taken up the matter upon public grounds. belie , I came to a point in which he did riot to say that Mr: Elton was in the wrong' le tter , (Mr. C urteis) did not stand there to defend tn a to (R e , which, in a moment of impatience and anger, he we te t , tain Williams; he hesitated not to s l y th a t for tha 13at' dent letter, he deserved dismissal from the service' 6 f it o r should be recollected that he afterwards took the yel l o f 0; portunity of offering an apology. What was the dema a frha tle i t s [ tain Williams ?He demanded not only an o p o logy thS t o il but also an apology for the original letter, requsstit s fo e o g would confer upon Mr. Elton the favour of allowing "' sis al 0 to be taken from the vessel to the shore. New, that at ' s for t io i was necessary, and ought to have been promptly gi ve : u s it i s seeond letter, there could be no manner of doubt ; "' se d not equally clear that an ap o logy was re f too the first. Mr. Elton was aft erw a r ds broug o f t ' court-martial, and he was bold to say, in the fa ce o te s " i i r i r o e u g s n e l , ar a i t n i d e s ofb but the thatworld, e r n e o w t e indeed that verya th e u y t ;e tt •A r s 'i ot i b sc att 'i e t stances attending the court-martial. He belies - 0e of stated an undeniable fact, when he asserted that ° i on, officers who sat as the judges upon that 0 0 c• - :itseL y . called upon to give his testimony as a for and he had the authority of officers of hot" for ; t slims, that it was a most unusual c i r curnstatiF t e tte ss , Officer presiding as a Judge to be called as a w i ree re,', - ,0 j was indeed true that he was called also for the dei sio st" l3 ; that the evidence on the one side might be weighed l ar ger on the other; but for the defence, or for the e the e 1 believed that there was great irregularity to the fis ceeding. But he believed further, that to ta r of the world it did seem extraordinary tha t Se ce, son should be first dismissed from her I‘ l2 .i e ' es"l vice, and then, when he no longer belonged for almost an indefinite time, the sentence was thats‘iffad be imprisoned, but that his imprisonment v t) commence until after he had arrived in Eng ia t ri rea tea ss consequence was that this young man was impel that a prisoner for several months before his imp in the Marshalsea commenced. And he contend ' was but an act of justice on the pait of the AdnairaLY z . 4 .4 ,l? , that fact into consideration. Magistrates at Quarter ?S": 6 j, ST re° ' account the confinement which had been su e CsP„ and Judges at Assize, were in the constant habit of taini'r fore a prisoner was brought to trial. The Gallat o eat oes t. tain had asserted that that portion of the imp f o i Lt to tlitt sooai could not properly form a portion of the sentence. .iroct Chi tautly was a very extraordinary assertion. The (1 7 - that tain, the Member for Westminster, had assert r- , mice ‘ - '",s additional imprisonment was caused by the circti al ,'; o his e i s the comrades of this Gallant Midshipman—not onY c i to ship but throughout the fleet—had inten ds , f:)jev s aean t s s him a triumphal dinner, that was to say, r, ,hie br give him a farewell dinner. Was that any grotto° .„ s haliV ditional imprisonment? He saw the Gallant Capta t 'i,„ Gslis head, but he appealed from the Gallant Captain t°,. , s e? s t/ Admiral. Which of these authorities was he to heitti ki q doubtedly on that occasion he was rather r .) et Admiralty under his shelter. —( Great laug h e ;ht, entirely approved of their conduct —he tlit l loo. showed themselves to be men of feeling and dise'iosl alb' their conduct, in reference to this matter, they exe r a e y per discretion, and showed that they would not '` ) C a rtr , ol selves to be misled by others. That was his Olt* ic ios4 opinion of their conduct, and he felt sure that tha t 0P of? re-echoed without those walls. He now cam e to s oy point. He believed that the Admiralty would hac e tr s the sentence on the young man's retu rn to this cori a t - o r(1 0 , he not, with a fatality which certainly seemed es tr- st r lts? brought himself again into a scrape—( Laughter )•,,„ s ist' o S now complained of in the G a ll an t C a pt a i n oppos"'"c 0 0 that he had asserted that Mr Elton gav e th e lie to th e hi der of the ship in which he was placed, but as he bad tl s tia , yrivate that he had forgot to state any of the extel e ct9 cumstances. To show that he had not taken uP oc 0 0() frivolous grounds, he would read to the House a ts is V, which he considered to be of some importance. In aj a i s estort he had paid to Mr. Elton in the Marr i d e had shown him this document, and , j ,", - t hes upon him as a gentleman to examine it and state wit' r ot', it was correct in every particular. Mr. Elton havi n gto stated that it was so. Even after this, fearing tn at s ,etic e iot have read it inattentively, he had in the P r ' two other gentlemen, repeated his reques t, , 0 . P., e OO him again to read it deliberately, and inform 11 '"i s , 10' 1 , or not, it was accurate in every particular. The 014,1dtW which he mentioned was the use of the word " ti s a ',. ' a orf r o tr (as we understood the Right Hon. Member) oug ir ' s et' to the phraseology of the Admiralty, to have be e t - a so ss i senger." On his asking him whether the s tatense n ,..„(fi e s( i , aggerated, his reply was—" Quite the contrary• re oce ts ' st , He did not mean to defend his conduct to Capt. Law' it was not the fact that his conduct was unprovo'ese hebatft by the Gallant Captain. The latter, he held, was, R as rey', correct in every particular. It stated, " that it ar s r o teil 11°i extraordinary that, after having made an unres,! t V ol t" logy, he should be treated as he had been; t' sj r elste r been taken by the Hercules to Malta, where h e c o `d ti e fur five weeks confined in the cock pit, where_ bog ( 1 1, was allowed to speak to him. He had been scut o " ta y I ; f if Prometheus to Gibraltar"—on board which, he n t i j'O e lowed to say in passing, that he had been treats t he e sof greatest courtesy by the Commander—" and fr ° ,T sr e sc h Se e metheus he was transferred to the Hastings, n",',; c ir ,s; again put into close confinement in t "" sP e 'i s os; where no person was allowed to speak t i t 'i o a him except the servants who brought t tits at rti that he was not allowed either wine or spirits, b a : ve cl of those restrictions were removed when he g u ri ss titiessllol Helen's ; that be was then taken from the sf isi o o v. ,pt, brought from thence between two men, like a e i t' s ' - e eth' o t!' i t in a second-class carriage to London, by the t r s soti Railway." It was harsh treatment towards a P hl y re">o . l position of a gentleman, and whose family were i t bokY e stc able, to be taken in this manner—the gaze of ev e so " s S lodged in the Marshalsea. That he conside re joss "Sir' s , ... A E ft l e t r on h , is w a h r o r , iv h al e p in er E ce n is g • hard treatment to a person of 19 years of age, ti late i l l s ati sfi js ' to t . c ,l tr. q t. h t i a r: t n ehei sentenceso fwpuo hisnu would punishment would r toiwe do Capt.ui bel n d forgiven, eLifaewetr.en, ceg, ebhuentoisrl,:tnie.tert:t he ,o e ;1 1:: (0 :t perceived by htheewpaaspgerirs,e°o t oss or, the provocation which Mr. Elton had received his conduct to Capt. Lawrence, and he contended Ise not at the time amenable to martial law. e in uf lo l4 ) l AnMintz/zit—He had no right then to b . 11 unify Mr. CURTEIS—Why was he allowed to be t ; saY , joir e —( Hear, hear.) But the statement went on was ta ut ; 1/ Mr. Elton was walking on the quarter-deck, hed ft° er" the Mate of the ship, when Captain Lawrence rus_ st h P ssi d cabin and upbraided the Mate for daring to talk wa n d 0:41 who was disgraced, and who disgraced the sersic.e i t : 00 o o l ti 'eo to Mr. Elton, he said, ' How dare you sPet' t upon, oo t e J officers ; you are a disgrace to the service °. aim, and the unfortunate young man, being goaded t so" to the appearance of unceasing persecution tosvards.t. Navitool the impression that he was no longer is tu a ftel,oso ; Captain Lawrence that he was a liar, but that tee the u „ sent an apology." He (Mr. C.) differed fres': b at t h i s' Admiral, who stated the other evening that t° bat ti.' lo . sent after Mi. Elton had been in the Marshalsea t ie ha d . w, s that it had been sent before. He though l ee ised_ 9 o , out a sufficient case to show that Mr. Elton han t i ato 1,1 0 `, 1 0 provocation, and he believed if he had struck Car_ or but t o he would have been amenable not to martial u; ss „ ta in s :: e , civil law. He wished it to be understood tlitt s ,, kl 'J s s e reuse had exerted himself to get Mr. Gallant Ado' was ste correct, anything th e e trs ' remitted. He believed what the Galls ats' to C3r Sa li f li o a r t e l s h ta e ted did the not oth w e i r sh n t i o ght im 'a p * Williams except that he was the original cau r s e sse id, 11` affair, and, at all events had not treated 1%1 • " sne ste ,i yeller with the courtesy which he might havfreo': the se ,:oit h i J believed that Mr. Elton deserved dismissal at. ._ on 4 p,_ 4 { but he did not think that he ought to receive to' h il in. Ne a p ment, because a dinner was about to be give n pas sions. jto accuse Captain Lawrence of being forgetting ar d . h i E m l s t e o l n f, , when o h f e m us o e r d e t t h h a e n ex t p n i s n a cs . s h i e e n . 9 s cuse him. Neither had he any charge to bringw'al at sltaitopf Williams, and all he was anxious for art i es --( l s as ., partial justice should be done so , an _ W 3, res s, s He perceived that the Gallant Officer below tr ritun dere;p the . ta . n that i t w t hO t bring down upon him the force of ( Laughter.) He informed the Gallant ( intention to bring the subject forward,'a,msP'h was a pity the subject should be again to foliose. K 4, lie thought it no undue course to pu in° . a ny O .' did not ` ll. matter as he was doing, for he ' tole! ilhr,,eer° =aa~ . S, 4, 4 74 h a t. • e ar .4 1, hi °'4 6 4. w sn.q 0 • 4 01 th , fJ lt . = t} 4 3 C z 8 1 7;r. 11 • 11 x tl b 4 . 4#4,`.,,T i ki , 4 11', 4 1 4 '44), ~'`'~a. ,tl4;t k t ~6'; ° ~ 4 rl 4)4 1 rt, scores of letters, requesting him not to be put down by any opposition in that House, but to stand forth true to the truth. That was the basis on which he had addressed the House ; on that basis he would stand, on that basis ho would fall, and on the part of the working classes he implored them for a Select Committee. Mr. VILLIERS said he did not know what the Hon. Member who had just sat down meant by asking Hon. Members on his side of the House for a Committee of Inquiry. He thought it was his (the Hon. Member for Knaresborough's) duty to move for an inquiry, and he (Mr. Villiers) was sure that there was no one on his side of the House who would oppose him ; on the con trary, every one would support him. Mr. FIELDEN, who spoke in a very low tone of voice, was understood to say that he believed a great deal of truth had fallen from the Hon. Member for Knaresborough, but he believed that the farm ers were carrying on the same trickery as that of which the manufacturers were guilty. The Hon. Member was then understood to advert to a charge lately brought against a poor man, who stated that he was driven by distress to commit the offence ; he had to maintain himself, a wife, and five children ; and though it was then the depth of winter, he had no means of getting a fire. He had earned nothing that week, and the week before he earned only 6s. 3d., out of which he paid two debts of ls. 3d. and , ls. 4d., and the remaining 3s. 7-id. was all.he had for the support of his family. He stated these facts to the Magistrate, who said that that was not a justification for acting improperly, The poor man admitted that, but said that distress drove men to do what they would not otherwise do. If he was sent to prison, he would get something to eat, and he was then starving. The fate, however, of the poor man was, that he was fined 10s., including costs. On the sentence being announced, the poor man said he could not pay 10d., much less los., and he was committed to prison for 14 days. These crimes did not arise from the dishonesty of the working classes, but from the sheer poverty in which the country was immersed. Mr. LAMBTON said that as a Member for one of the northern counties he took a great interest in the subject then before the House ; and he certainly could not help saying that there ought to be a Select Com mittee appointed to inquire into the matter.—(Hear, hear.) He was sure that that was the feeling of the House, and he rose to ask the Hon. Gentleman opposite when he would move for a Committee. _ _ Mr. FERRAN!) said that when he had brought for ward his charges the llon. Member for Wolverhampton had told him that the matter should not rest where it was. He had thought after that statement of the Hon. Member for Wolverhampton that he would instantly ask for a Select Committee, in order that the charges might be investigated. He had now only to say that he would himself move for a Select Committee of Inquiry before Easter, if some other Hon. Member had not previously made such a motion. Mr. VILLIERS said that he had already repelled the charges. He had produced a statement, signed by 72 manufactures, to show that they were unfounded. THE NAVY ESTIMATES. Captain PECHELL said that he wished to correct an error which had been committed in the reports of what had fallen from him the other evening in the debate on. the Navy Estimates. It was stated that he had ex pressed himself favourable to large estimates for the pur pose of equipping more powerful fleets on the several stations. Now, that statement was altogether erroneous. Hon Gentlemen opposite had said on former occasions that our Navy was in an inefficient state and ought to be increased ; but he had been of a different opinion. He had always maintained the proper policy for this country to pursue, was not to exhaust her strength in the peace establishment. The Minister of Marine of France had denied the statement of an intended reduction. The difference between himself and the Right Hon. Baronet was between the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Marine. He was inclined to attach the most credit to the latter on such matters. It was quite clear that the French Government were not in the least disposed to re • duce their force. He approved of the policy of the Noble Lord, the Member for Tiverton, and he trusted that that policy would be pursued by the present Government. THE MURDER OF M'ARDLE. Mr. O'CONNELL begged to trouble the House with an observation on a matter which was personal to him self. It had been attributed to him in public that in some observations which he had made respecting the Catholic clergy in Spain, he had said that he did not complain of such of the clergy being prose cuted as were of Carlist politics. He had meant to draw this distinction, that for any act done politically as Carlists he had no sympathy with their sufferings. He would now make one or two observations in reference to the motion of which he had given notice, for a return of the registered arms in the county of Down. That rather arose out of the murder of a young man named M'Ardle; one of the most cruel murders that was ever committed. Mr. M'Ardle was an exceedingly fine youth, more than six feet three inches in height, of excellent conduct, and good temper. On Christmas evening he was at a pub lic-house, and a quarrel arose between a friend of his, of the name of M'Keon, and an Orangeman, and to termi nate the quarrel he put his own friend out of the house. There was a party of thirty or forty persons, who had been out at a shooting-match during the day, and this party were informed by Scott, the other party engaged in the quarrel, of what had taken place. They resumed their arms, and called out to be admitted ; on being re fused, they forced an entrance, and broke the windows, doors, and furniture. M'Ardle escaped to another pub lic-house, at the distance of a mile and a half. There he was pinioned, and dragged from an inner room along the floor. He escaped a mile further ; he was pursued ; they found him lying by a lime-kiln, dragged him along the road, and one of them shot him dead. He did not wish to throw blame upon any party ; but there was a shout in Court—the usual Orange cry — when this party were acquitted. The Jury who, with out hesitation, acquitted the men on the charge of mur der, found them guilty of a riot—a pretty good proof that it was an anomalous verdict. Another murder had occurred since ; another young man had been shot by a party of the same description immediately after the murder to which he had alluded. What protection was there if such practices were to be allowed ? What he complained of was, that the Magistrates did not do their utmost to suppress such meetings. The Magis i trates took uo step to repress what he (Mr. O'Connell) conceived to be a flagrant violation of the law. They allowed arms and ammunition to remain in the hands of the individuals who had perpetrated this murder. Every effort ought to have been made to punish those persons. He would content himself with moving that a return be laid before the House of the numbers, names, and de scription of the persons who had registered arms in the county of Down. The SPEAKER having put the question, Lord ELIOT said—H e h o p e d h e m i g ht be permitted to make a few observations on the statement of the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman. It was no light matter to impugn the verdict of a jury, - particularly when the life of a fellow-creatnre was at stake. He (Lord Eliot) thought himself bound to say that looking to the evi dence, to the statement of the Attorney-General, and to the charge of the Learned Judge at the trial, he was at a loss to conceive on what ground the prisoners were ac quitted. He assured the Right Hon. and Learned Gen tleman, that his (Lord Eliot's) Noble Friend at the head of the Irish Government had felt the deepest pain on that occasion, not only with respect to the death of the unfortunate man—melancholy as that occurrence was— hut also as that occurrence indicated a continuance of that spirit of party warfare and bigotry which the Government had hoped was rapidly beginning to subside.—(Hear, hear.) They also felt that it tended to shake that confidence in the power of the law to punish crime which it was so necessary should prevail among all classes of the community. The Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman had done injustice to the Government. So anxious was his (Lord Eliot's) Noble Friend that the ends of justice should not be frustrated, that he had directed the principal law-officers of the Crown to proceed to Down to conduct the prosecu tion; and he (Lord Eliot) believed that he was justified in saing that that Learned Gentleman had on that occasion displayed all the skill and knowledge which were characteristic of him. He entirely agreed with the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman that such meet ings were very reprehensible. He was not sufficiently ac quainted with the law to know if such meetings were ille gal, but he agreed with the Right Hon. and Learned Gent. that they ought not to be encouraged. With regard to the cries uttered in Court, he did not know how they could have been prevented. As soon as they were uttered the Judge interfered, and commanded silence, after which he (Lord Eliot) declared the cries had not been repeated. He meant no disrespect either to the religion professed by the Right Hon. Member, or to the party to which he belonged, but he believed that what had originated the disturbance which had terminated in the murder of M'Ardle was a cry raised of " to hell with King William." He (Lord Eliot) said this to show that there were strong party feelings actuating both sides. in Butsaying Mr. M'Ardle ththat tO'CONNELLhtandnnseizedry said had that tbheee n t m h r aa e ise No wd b hb l e oy rtLordahiese Catholics matterand etouonka was,rm himetdh unarmed, tt u ht t oh ue o g f the meeti ng . Th e worst taths o he f o clitre right .shye theyi n that a w t partoul dremain e f m a Irelandiu so, ra h v o n y weapons, w ge l m on e g while the Catholics n were all armed w ith h h O e a wer he (Mr. O'Connell) could not say. Lord ELIOT would take that opportunity of alluding to another objection which h a d b een made, which was, that the Jury was composed entirely of Protestants. It had been said that the law-officers of the Crown ought to have objected to the composition of the Jury. He (Lord Eliot) believed that the Jury had been impannelled to try other cases, and the next of kin to the deceased had made no such objection ; and what, he would ask, would have been said in the south of Ireland, where the great majority of the people were Catholics, if a Jury of Catholics were objected to on the score of religion? He felt that as the next of kin had made no objection to the composition of the jury, the law-officers of the Crown could not with propriety do so. In conclusion, the Noble Lord observed that he would not object to the returns being granted. Mr. SHAW said, with regard to the Constitution of the jury, he begged to observe, that the Counsel em ployed by the next of kin were gentlemen of Vae highest standing at the Irish bar. Mr. O'CONNELL begged to say that he had not im peached the composition of the jury. Lord ELIOT did not impute such a charge to the Hon. Gentleman, but an accusation of that nature had been made. The SPEAKER said that as the return was unop posed, perhaps the Hon. Member would not press it as an amendment, but would consent to his putting the motion that he (the Speaker) do leave the Chair. Mr. O'CONNELL would withdraw the amendment, and bring it forward as a substantive motion. EXCHEQUER-BILLS FRAUD. In reply to a question put by Mr. BLEWETT, The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER stated that the Exchequer-bills Fraud Bill would be read a