The Sun. — London, England, 1849-03-31 00:00:00

dore."—(Hear, hear.) Now, what has been the in of the successive failures of the potato that have een place, combined with the operation of the poor-law, Nith the landed property of Ireland? All the encum nces existing in 1844 have been aggravated by the ina fb 3' to pay rent, and also by the imposition of poor -rate.— Mar, hear.) The account of the condition of landed pro - ttty in 1844, which I have read to you, would but faintl y Pict the condition of that property at the present moment. rums have sunk still more deeply under encumbrances y the arrears ef rent charges, and also by the arrears kat due for the support of the poor. What is the pre condition of a great part of Ireland? Of the 21 unions it Often referred to in this debate ten are hovering between "necessity for demanding relief and relying upon their / i t: exertions. These 21 unions , compri sin g an immense rich and a great population, are in t he financial condition fth I shall presently describe ; in 18 of the 21 you have Lvela obliged to supersede the local exertions of the gentry, wi ti their affairs you are now administering, not by , t4 e natural local functionaries interrsted in im p osin g the i Lle and in checking excess, but by vice - gua rdians, who, I eve, are discharging their duties most zea l o usl y and most Tl "Ithfully.—(Hear, hear.) In the whole 21 unions the ex talditure for the year ending the 29 th of Septe mber, 1848, as 468,1011.; the net amount of debt on that day not pro- Med for was 123,9851. ; there being, therefore, for that year, i l l i cluding the expenditure and the outstanding debts, a sum ,592,000 f. for the relief of the poor. How was that expen :4lre met? Was it possible to meet it by . their own unaided !oils? I believe it was not; and you wisely met it—what her might be the objection to such a course in principle— '4ll, er than suffer any portion of the Queen's subjects to ; I rv, e, by an advance, partly from private benevolence, and, l' en that was exhausted, from the public Treasury.—(Hear, .r) The rate collected was only 199,0001. The amount nplied by the British Association and by the Treasury was 1 1 4 ,800/. The funds of the British Association are , I appre 'd, expended. You have not now t hat source to rel y upon. I< hiust be made up by extrinsic aid, and the Trea sur y is the fat from which that aid can come. — (He ar, hear,) t is the general condition of the 21. unions; but I shall kfe i r to the state of one or two of them in detail. Take the tlebar Union. The population of this union is 61,000, and he maximum of persons who received relief in 1847 was • 6 00. Here is an account of the condition of t bat union : Succesive years of famine have told fearfully on the cir- Zrastances of all classes. Amongst t he hi g hest rated im• R hone lessors are the names of no less than nine p ro p rietors ililose estates are under the supervision of the C ourt of aticery, and managed by receivers. The encumbrances and improvidence, perhaps, of former years , a ccumulatin g 'Pon the difficulties of the last three seasons, appear to have t rldered extrication hopeless in these cases." Take next the Clifden union. That union p resents the ex -I,l:aordinary fact that whilst the net annu al value of the land ;19.9861. there has been land thrown u p to the landlords to e net value of 9,445/ (Hear, bear) and occupiers, with iltany means whatever, to the net value of 1,67 n. ; the 4141 value being no less than 11,1211 a year • thus three- S of the whole net value of the union were thrown up in , S ' 4 lequence of inability to meet the demands for poor-rate, 4 4 11,1 of unwillingness to incur fresh charges. — (Hea r, hear. ) the grand to her Majesty has recently been presented from grand jury of the county of Cork, in which it is said;— , 4 The grand jury should not conceal fro m t he Govern , 'est their solemn conviction that the county is n o t able to 1p this money; that this inability is attested by t he fact t i: 4 t there are in this county thousands of a cre s of land fat out of cultivation, and wholly waste at t h is moment ; ' l 'g two of their baronial rate - collectors threw up their t PPeintments at last assizes, and that one barony of these, o Staining 89,986 acres, is without a collecto r from that ti me to the present, it being impossible to get any one to blalertake the collection, the entire barony being alleged to waste." "re what are our prospects ?—( Cheers. ) Observe what is 5o altered condition of insolvent landed property with re -letice to solvent property . since the passing the poor- W•—(Hear, hear.) Previous to the passing of the poor 11w each property, whether solvent or insolvent, stood alone. I „ 1 e insolvent property, neglected by the tenants' inability to rent, and under general mismanagement, did not it did affect the solvent estates in their neighbourhood ; did in its consequences visit them indirectly, for no doubt t here was felt to some extent the contagion of mismanage went and misfortune; but no immediate direct prejudice was l aitained. Now, however, under the poor - law the s olvent , fate becomes responsible for the insolvency of t he insol ,,ltit estate.—(Hear, hear.) I am speaking to Eng l i shmen Po are not so familiar with the details of this q uestion as the Irish gentlemen, to whom I am obliged for the patience with which they listen to my statements; but I ask those w hoare connected with this part of the empire what are we , do ?—( Hear, hear.) Is it true, that in one barony they n. unable to appoint a collector because the lands are waste ? q a true that of land to the annual value of 19,9861. in one :Ilion, an amount to the extent of 11,0001. has been thrown I P, and that nine large properties are in the condition which ~.have described to you, on the authority of Mr. Guinness ? ,(ilear, hear.) Why, it these statements are true, the in reney will go on extending till all the solvent estates are Zerged in one common ruin. —(Hear, hear.) Then what is Lod position of the poor ?—( Hear, hear.) Every acre of ' A .nd thrown out of cultivation is aggravating the evil, is tear.) the means of future subsistence.—(Hear, k„ e4 r-) What will be the position of that barony, with , Lu,ooo acres lying waste?—(Hear.) Do not let us fancy there hope in a good potato harvest.—( Hear, hear.) You may 're a fruitful potato harvest in 1849. If you have there will be foolish reliance placed on it, and the spring of 1850 will exhibit a most determined effort to perpetuate the cul tivation of that root.—(Heir, hear.) Every ex p ense that , i be spared will be avoided for the purpose of collecting ted and providing subsistence from the potato for 1851. this way you may go on for a time; but after the warn s we have had for four successive years, can we have any anee that the potato will afford even a temporary relief? 'pear, hear.) My belief is that it wi l l onl y p er p etuate vicious system so long followed.—( Hear, hear.) I t may teeibly for a time diminish the demands of the Treasur y , I. t I doubt if anything but evil will be the result of a pros ntle potato harvest in 1849. The truth is, we are now Letiberating and acting on one of the most extraordinary ekes in the history of the world, and it is absolutely neces ry to consider—indeed we shall be forced to consider — what 7 to be done in such circumstances, unless we are resolved 1 ? Make up our minds to travel over again this vicious circle 4 which we have so long moved—unless we are pre• Pared to trust to the potato harvest instead of endeavouring 1 L" bring about the gradual introduction of cereal crops "tong the farmers of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) You are taW feeding about 100,000 people in Ireland—l know not e exact number—but you are enabled to feed them, because ; 41 1 have removed every impediment to the introduction of ird•—(Cheers.) If that law, which in 1846 I was enabled repeal, the law of 1842, had been now in o p eration, there ;Quid have been a duty of 10s. a quarter on the intro !duction of Indian meal ; but that Indian meal is the substi ine for the potato by which you are now e nabled to kee p to and soul together—(Hear, hear) — a nd y ou are enabled `o keep body and soul together at an expense t o the Impe ' gal Treasury of Id. a day for each man. [The CHANCEL ;'()It of the EXCLIEQUER—"HardIy so much."] The g reat ter you have to solve is, by what means will yo u p rovide ar the substitution of a higher and more certain description " 4 food than the potato you have hitherto relied upon? :(Hear, hear.) I believe that few tempte d b y the p ecuniary ring will be inclined to take the chance of the potato "gain; but you must do much during the interval that must apse before cereal substitutes can be introduced.—( Hear.) That will be a long interval. The acre of land that will produce potatoes to support a certain nu mber of p ersons will not support half the number if sown with grain. Greater care will Le required for grain in the cultivation of ,he land. exhausted by potato culture , and in its present Ire unfit for the cultivation of cereal c ro p s.—(Hear, hear.) t is is a matter of calculation. If y ou are to substi 11te a cereal crop for the potato , no p erson holding a farm tinder five acres can support his family.—(Hear, bear.) There s ot estates where there are 18 0 tenants occu py in g land of 'lot more than five acres. They have grown corn enough to 1 4 4 3 , the rent, and lived upon the p otato ; but they cannot sO that any more.— ( Hear, hear.) If y ou encourage them : 4 grow corn instead of potatoes t he y will not be able to 1 1 Ppert their families. In the mean time y ou must keep these 180 families; and already, no doubt, many of them that4re finding their way to the United Sta tes. Seein g , then, a long time must elapse before ce real cro p s can be r aised, during which something must be done for these far lahers is there, I would ask , no alternati ve for Great Britain ? 2 4 'she no alternative but to b ear her p ortion of the 11• burden? Now, if Ireland comes forward, in the spirit of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Napier) to-night, and manifests a disposition to bear he r full share of the treden—nay, if she will make a great exertion t o re p a y onl y t he just debt she owes us on account of the union work 'oases —this will lead England all the more readily to co operate with her in adopting some decisive measure for ex iricating her from her difficulties.—(Cheers..) But what Co urse shall we pursue? If I offer an y su gg estion wh atever , the last thought that will enter my mind will be a wish to give any embarr ass ment to the Government in any attempt VeY may make to solve the problem before them.—( Hear.) rut I think that something may be done, some course taken to th e purpose of dealing with tho se distressed unions.— ( Rear.) The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Napier) misunderstood me if he thought that I said a mere substitution of one pro trietary for another would at once solve the mystery. I ad no such intention. The Hon. Gentleman did not hear t he account I have been giving of the management of ended property in. Ireland. If he bad be would have been „ c onvinced that, whether or no the substitution of a new qopri:tary will cure all the evils of Ireland, the condition of landed property there, especially that placed in the Court of Chancery and the Court of Exchequer, is such as to afford conclusive reasoning that even if we were speaking 1 4 a time of prosperity we should be bound to make some 'igorous efforts to relieve the landed proprietors from such 4 ocumbrances as I have spoken of. —(Hear hear.) I feel as much convinced as any man that no single measure will be Sufficient for the purpose of redeeming Ireland %but it, at the Same time, appears to me that there would be an adva nta g e In taking some immediate course with regard to the super- Mtendence and management of those districts of Ireland Which are most distressed. As I said before, you have at present no advantage from local manag ement. You are not present the local functionaries to undertake the duty of su , Nrintendence. Eighteen of these unions are already go !erned by vice-guardians. I suggested, the other evening, the appointment of a commission for undertaking the general charge and superintendence of the affairs of those unions. Subsequent reflection has induced me to think that that is the best course you can now p.ursue. I would attempt to Oring the affairs of all these unions under one general con trol and superintendence. I would have a commission ap kointed by the Government —having the confidence of the Government—composed of men on whom they can rely— and deriving . their authority from the Government; being ho imperium in imperio, but acting in concert with the Go l'ernment, and whose duty it should be to apply themselves, Without delay, to the condition of those unions. I would Propose that that commission should discharge its duties on the spot. I believe that there would be the greatest advan tage if you could, as I have no doubt you could, prevail on Men of the highest character and the greatest experience of the management of estates in England, who are politically connected with you, and in whom both you and the country Would have confidence--I believe it would be of the greatest advantage if you could prevail upon such men to devote themselves to the consideration and to the discharge of the duties that would necessarily belong to a department of that nature. If they went to Limerick and there saw the state of things with their own eyes, and entered into persona communication with the parties there—(Hear, hear)—it Would in my opinion be a most advantageous mode of pro ceeding. They would judgefor themselves, and not through the intervention of other agents; and they would be able to 8 11bIllit to you measures which I have no doubt would be Well deserving of your consideration. I would advise you to Place under the charge of that.Comtnission all the various measures which have been suggested for the mitigation of this great calamity. I would contrive to act upon some combined and concerted system. You have grants of seve ral descriptions placed under the control of the Board of orks. There are grants for the improvement of the land Y draining, and for the execution of public works. It ap• Pears to me that the application of those grants in these dis tressed unions should be made upon some system ; that there should be entire concert between the Commission which a s uggest and the vice-guardians of the Board of W erks. I ao not mean that the Commission should supersede the •Roard of Works, but that the application of the grants to m ;u different districts should be made with a view to one great object—namely, the laying of a foundation for a better state of things.—(Cheers.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman is wrong in supposing that the only measure contemplated in 1846 was one to import food. In 1846 we proposed, and her Majesty's Government of that day were enabled to pass into law a Bill to authorise the advance of public money to a limited amount to promote the improvement of land in Great Britain and Ireland by the application of drainage; and no less a sum than 2,000,0001. was granted for Great Britain, and 1,000,0001. to Ireland, for that purpose. It appears to me that this Commission should also take into consideration the policy of diminishing the pressure of dis tress which is now felt by means of emigration. We have the greatest colonial empire that there is on the face cf the earth. In several of our colonies there is a great demand for labour. In Ireland there is an excess and a superfluity of labour, which is continually counteracting all your exer tions for the mitigation of the present calamity. It appears to me that by some combined system you might mitigate this evil by emigration. I place less confidence in the efficacy of this course than many. I am quite aware of the enormous expense attending it, and of the necessity of great caution in the application of such a remedy; but there is one answer which is constantly made to any proposition of this kind, and which is thought conclusive, but which I do not consider to be entitled to all the weight that is generally given to it. It is said—" Do not depend upon the State in this matter; consider there is a vast amount of voluntary emigration going on, and beware lest, by encouraging emi gration on the pa"t f the State, you interfere:with this volun tary emigration." I should certainly be unwilling to inter fere with such voluntary undertakings, at the expense and under the direction of those proprietors who may feel an in terest in them, and who believe that they are relieving their estates by engaging in them. But, at the same time, before we admit that argument of voluntary emigration to be con clusive, let us inquire who are the voluntary emigrants.— (Hear, hear.) Many of them are men who are taking capital away—(Hear, hear)—and many of them are men suffering under the apprehension that the increase of the poor, and consequently of the poor-rates, will involve them in the common calamity under which the insolvent unions are suffering. Now, every man that you lose from Ireland who takes away more capital than he does paupers whom that capital would employ, is a dead loss to that country.— ( Hear, hear.) The comfortable. farmer, fearing the inva sion of this poor-law, and who is possessed of 401. or 50/. capital—who sells his tenant-right holding in the north, and transfers his capital to the United States or to Canada, con fers no benefit on Ireland by emigration, but he is withdraw ing capital which might be usefully employed in his own country.—(Hear, hear.) There is another class of volun tary emigrants in whose expatriation I think we have no right to rejoice—they are all that class of helpless paupers who go out in a state of weakness and disease, the fruit of starvation at home; and who inflict a positive evil on the colonies.—(Hear, hear.) I believe you have in many re. spects remedied some of the great evils attending emigra tion. I believe many useful precautions have been adopted in respect to the means you have employed to preserve health and to secure well-built and safe passage-ships; and more particularly have you done this within the last year. But I must say that I never read a more painful account of this voluntary emigration system than that which I find in a private letter of no later date than the 30th of November, 1847, bearing the signature of Mr. de Vere, and which letter has been adopted as a public document by the Colonial office. This is the account which Mr. de Vere gives of voluntary emigration of the comparatively destitute, and in no records of the sufferings on board a slave-ship is there anything to be found equal to it. He took his passage in the steerage of an emigrant-ship . in order that he might become acquainted with the condition of the emi grants, and he remained on board nearly two months; and he says— " Befor e the emigrant has been a week at sea he is an altered man. How can it be otherwise? Hundreds of poor people, men, women, and children, of all ages, from the drivelling idiot of 90 to the babe just born, huddled to gether without light, without air, walloiving in filth, and breathing a fetid atmosphere, sick in body, dispirited in heart, the fevered patients lying between the sound, in sleep ng places so narrow as almost to deny them the power of indulging, by a change of position, the natural restlessness of the disease; by their agonised ravings disturbing those around, and predisposing them, through the effects of the imagination, to imbibe the contagion ; living without food or medicine, except as administered by the hand of casual charity, dying without the voice of spiritual consolation, and buried in the deep, without the rites of the church. The food is generally ill-selected, and seldom sufficiently , cooked, in consequence of the insufficiency and bad construc tion of the cooking places. The supply of water, hardly enough for cooking and drinking, does not allow washing. In many ships, the filthy beds, teeming with all abomina tions, are never required to be brought on deck and aired ; the narrow space between the sleeping berths and the piles of boxes is never washed or scraped, but breathes up a damp and fetid stench, until the day before arrival at quarantine, when all hands are required to scrub up,' and put on a fair face for the doctor and Government inspector. No moral restraint is attempted, the voice of prayer is never heard; drunkenness, with its consequent train of ruffianly debasement, is not discouraged, because it is profitable to the captain, who traffics in the grog." (Loud cries of " Hear, hear. ') Such are the advantages of voluntary emigration !—( Hear, hear.) Such a system of emigration is a positive disgrace to this country, with its great colonial empire, and great colonial resources for the people. Though the removal of such a class of emigrants may confer an advantage on the proprietors of the estates from which they are sent, yet I consider those who send out such persons do the greatest disservice to Ireland, because on their arrival at the United States, or at Canada, they so disgust the people of those countries, that they are induced to throw impediments in the way of emigration and thus is prevented that sound and healthy emigration which might otherwise take place. Therefore, from the advantages of that voluntary emigration which you wish to encourage, after deducting the removal of those who carry with them capital more than sufficient to support the persons they take with them, you must also deduct all those voluntary emigrants that do nothing but bring disgrace upon your system of emigration. Without, therefore, entertaining too sanguine ex pectations from voluntary emigration, still I cannot but think that having a superinten..ing local authority acting in concert with an authority which is able to communicate with the Government, and personally with the proprietors of estates, and capable of seeing in what part of the country there is a congestion of the population—for from those parts your emigrants ought to be drawn—l cannot, I say, help think ing, having such an authority on the spot, acting in con cert with the Government, that you might greatly facilitate voluntary emigration. But there is a great evil arising from the want of full information on the part of the people who emigrate.—(Hear, hear.) Just consider a poor man leaving Ireland, and seeking a new abode 2,000 cr 3,000 miles from home—what comfort could we not give him by imparting to him a little information as to the country to which he is going, and even by giving him some slight pe cuniary aid besides ?—( Hear, hear.) Yes, I would not deny him Government aid.—(Hear, hear.) I think it would be politic to incur some expense for the purpose of facilitating emigration, under certain conditions.—(Hear, bear.) You tell us what has been done in Ireland by the Noble Lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and also by the Marquis of Lansdowne. You tell us that they have reduced the amount of the poor-rates on their estates by a well regulated system of emigration, and that they have thereby increased a demand for labour, and have restored prosperity and content among the people on those estates.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") What more do you say? Why, that they are raising great sums from Ireland for the purpose of promoting emigration. Well, Lord Palmerston might be able to do this; and notwithstanding any diffe rence of political opinion, I most willingly declare that I consider the exertion which that Noble Lord has made to relieve that district from the misery with which it has been visited do him very great credit.—(Cheers.) But how many gentlemen there may be in Ireland willing to make the same exertions, if they had your assistance and advice, and who would gladly follow the Noble Lord's course, but that they cannot follow it !—(Hear, heir.) You might go on increasing this voluntary emigration, and en couraging further remittances from emigrants in the United States and Canada to their friends in Ireland. In addition, therefore, to public works—to the encouragement of fisheries, of drainage, and the improvement of land, I think a Commission of the kind I have pointed out might be the means of improving Ireland by a series of emigra tion, and that it ought to be among the first objects to be adopted. I come now to another point to which I adverted the other evening, and in regard to which I still entertain a very strong feeling. In my opinion all these measures will be ineffectual—all your measures of drainage, of local im provement, of increase of fisheries, of emigration—all will be ineffectual, unless you can cure in some way or other those monstrous evils which arise out of that condition of landed property to which I adverted the other night.— (Loud cheers.) If those estates producing 800,0034 with arrears annually accumulating, are not to allow more than 2,003.10 be applied to the permanent improvement of the land—if there are certain principles and forms of equity sanctioned by the Court of Chancery which throw obstacles in the way of any improvement in that respect, you may feel assured that all your other exertions will be ineffec tual. I think it would be an inestimable advantage to every insolvent—and to every nominal owner, and to every encumbrancer who is receiving nothing—that it would, in short, be an advantage to everybody except the receivers under the Court of Chancery, and the lawyers who are dividing the sums received from these estates amongst them selves—(Cheers and laughter)—if by some process which should not be inconsistent with the principles of equity and of fair dealing, you could relieve those estates from the con trol of the Court of Chancery, and permit them to be pos sessed by men of capital who would embark in their cultiva tion with new hopes and fresh vigour.—(Cheers.) In my opinion, you would do more by that Act for the advancement of Ireland than by any other that can at present be adopted. I will just contrast with the hopeless condition of some parts of Ireland—hopeless on account of the extent of those en cumbrances—the case of an estate. an account of which I have before me in a letter which I will read to the House. It is a letter from a very humble man, giving an account of what he has done in. Ireland, although having no connexions in that country, and undertaking a settlement in a remote part of Ireland, but bringing capital enough for the cultivation of the land. It is written in a simple style ; but if you will devise measures to enable persons to follow, safely and securely, the cultivation of land in Ireland, you may judge what may be done from the plain relation contained in thisstatement. I re ceived it from a Lancashire man. It is dated March 23, and be is giving an account of an undertaking to which he livid been a party on the west, coast of Ireland. " He had taken on perpetuity a lease on the west coast of Ireland."—(Hear, hear) Well, I am recommending that you should give facilities—(Loud cheers)—to men to obtain a permanent interest in the land.—(Cheers.) Well, he says—" He had taken on perpetuity a lease on the west coast of Ireland. He had planted four of his sons there. To encourage habits of industry one is buying all the stockings brought to him to send to England; another has purchased a hooker of 25 tons, and is endeavouring to encourage fishing on the coast ; another was employing upwards of 100 labourers daily last year, but on account of being heavily taxed for his improvements turned them off with the exception of 10 or 12.—(Hear, hear.) From the fourth he sends a letter addressed to himself, dated the 16th of March, 1849." This is the account which his son gives of his - proceedings in this adventure in a part of Ireland which we suppose to be so wild and swage that it is impossible to live in it with any profit or advantage., He says—" The more I see, the more am I convinced that this country has the best prospects of any place I know of.— (Laughter.) There is every desideratum for the enjoyment of a contented and prosperous life." He Is writing this in the midst of all the misery surrounding him : - " I see no reason why persons should not support themselves entirely upon the produce of their land here. Of beef, mutton, pork, an almost inex haustible supply can always be had. Flour, oatmeal, &c., should all come off the farm. A chandler's bill should never be known, for we have already manufactured more than a winter month's supply from the slender means we had. In fact, I think that:rent, groceries, with some extras for cloth ing, &c., should be the only expenditure of a person in this country, when once properly settled. For the yearly sum of 5/. enough fuel may be obtained, even to superfluity ; and, as for vegetable, any plant that comes under that denomina tion will flourish .here with ordinary care." Well, contrast this man's exertions with that estate yielding 10,5004, and which, out of • 10,0001. received, had paid only 6001. towards its peimanent Improvement, and then I ask Which is the best means of increasing agricultural prosperity of a country,—to permit an estate to be cultivated under a management like this man's, or to be under the management of the Court of Chancery?—(Hear, hear.) I mentioned before, the management of property to a certain extent by the Commission to which I have alluded. Now, no man has less confidence than I have in the economy of an undertaking on the part of a Government. So far from ad vising this Commission entering upon the employment of unprofitable labour, I think it ought to have for its main object the reverting to the principle of the Bill of 1838, and make the workhouse a test of destitution in Ireland. I can not believe that there can be any other effectual test. I have not the slightest confidence in a labour rate. I certainly have confidence in encouraging local improvement where there is reproductive labour; but I have not the least confidence in making labour the test of destitution; and I believe that if all the funds of Great Britain were obliged to support the destitute in Ireland, upon your attaching labour as a condi tion of relief, that you would do the greatest mischief to Ire land ; that your test would not be effective, but that there would be such an interference with the ordinary labour market as to involve all in one common state of destitution. —(Hear, hear.) But, seeing what difficulties you have to encounter in effecting the substitution of a cereal crop for the potato crop, I cannot say that I should be altogether against such an undertaking by way of setting an example of what an improved method of agriculture can do.—(Hear, hear.) I am told that the Lord-Lieutenant has done great good by encouraging the delivery of lectures on the subject. Why not do it on a greater scale? Why not on a limited scale set an example of an improved system of management? There are in one union 4,000 able-bodied paupers —now, if I had 4,000 able-bodied men, and if I could employ them to open a road to an inaccessible part of the country, I think it would be better than to make them break stones. I admit most distinctly that there is no test you can rely upon ex cept the workhouse test, but certainly I would not exclude altogether, supposing such a local commission as I have suggested were appointed, the cultivation of an estate for the purpose of serving as an example to the people what was the best mode of substituting a corn for a potato crop. Some Hon. Gentlemen say they never beard of such a thing, and they ridicule the idea of managing estates by a Govern ment Commission. But what did you do in the case of the forfeited estates after the rebellion of 1745? You took the whole of the forfeited estates after that rebellion, and you appointed a commission for their management.—( Hear, hear.) I think that it was a cumbrous commission. Probably their duties were too much for them. The members consisted of a different class of persons from that which I would recom mend to be employed for the management of estates in Ire land. But the principle of that Act was a most wise one. Those estates were subject to heavy encumbrances. It was not a case of simple forfeiture of estates, and the Crown taking unencumbered possession. The estates were sub ject to heavy mortgages and other charges. The trustees were directed to pay off the mortgages and the other bur dens ; and they were instructed to manage the estates as satis factorily as possible. The Act under whizh this was done is the 25;h of George 11., char. 41 (1752), and is entitled "An Act for annexing certain forfeited Estates to the Crown inalien• ably, and for making satisfaction to the lawful creditors thereupon, and to establish a method of managing the same, and applying the rents and profits thereof to the better civi lizing and improving the Highlands of Scotland, and pre.. venting disorder there for the future." That Act provided, first, for the satisfaction of the creditors, so far only as the value of such lands. It next empowered the Commissioners to grant leases, and, where estates comprehended whole parishes, to divide the same into more parishes, and grant competent provision to the new ministers. It also authorised them to erect schools on the said estates for instructing young persons in reading and writing, and in the several branches of agriculture and manufacture, and to supply schools with the material for agriculture and manufactures, and for the raising of flax. Now, I should not at all object to - schools being established in the west of Ireland for the pur pose of instructing the youth in agriculture— (Hear, hear) — nor would I think the encouragement of the raising of flax an undesirable object.—(Hear, hear.) But the question which I am at present considering is whether such a com mission can be instrumental in promoting the transference of property. I would advise no rash proceeding in this re spect. I see no advantage in throwing into the market an immense quantity of property, even if it could be disposed of.—(Hear, hear.) I think that the throwing of a great quantity of property simultaneously . into the market would inevitably have the effect of depressing the market. I would therefore advise the recourse to no such proceeding. But the question is whether such a commission would not facili tate the voluntary transference of property. Last year you admitted the principle.—(Hear, hear.) You passed an Act for the purpose of promoting the transference of encumbered estates. By that Act you gave power to the owners of such estates to sell, and you gave power to a single encumbrancer to sell, with the consent of the Court of Chancery —you ad mitted the advantage ofsuch a system as I am now advocating ; but what I greatly fear is that the mechanism of your Act was so cumbrous that it will not be able to effect your de sign.— ( Hear, hear.) Since you have decided, then, upon the principle that the retention of many of those estates is of no advantage to the owners. that they are of no advan tage to the encumbrancers, that they are a positive evil with respect to the solvent proprietors in their neighbourhood, and that they are prejudicial to the public interest, what I now recommend you to consider is, whether you ought not still further to facilitate the voluntary transfer of encumbered estates ; for I am convinced that if you rely upon the cum brous process of the Court of Chancery, you will not give effect to your own designs.—(Hear. bear.) I know that I am rendering myself liable to the charge of meddling with the established rights of property—l know it may be said that unprofessional men in their attempts to secure the ad. vantages of the introduction of new capital into the country are apt to disregard vested interests. But I wish to confine myself, as far as possible, within the limits sanctioned by , the highest equity lawyers. lam speaking now of the principle. It was said by the present Lord Chancellor (Cottenham)— and I could not name a judge that ever sat in the Court of Chancery of higher authority in matters relating to the principles of equity jurisdiction—(Hear, hear)—the Lord Chancellor, with respect to the principle of facilitating the transference of Irish estates, said —_ " Unfortunately for Ireland, the landed property there, to a large extent, was in a situation not only detrimental to those who had an interest in the land, but almost injurious to the community at large. A very large portion of it was heavily encumbered by mortgages, charges ' and other in terests; so that the ostensible owner could hardly be said to have any estate in the land at all. When a man was really the owner of an estate, he had both the means and the mo tive for improving it; but it was impossible for a landlord whose income arising from his landed estate was intercepted by mortgages and other, charges to discharge those duties which a landlord should discharge. This was a most in famous state of things." Another Lord Chancellor—an Irish Lord Chancellor (Lord Campbell)—speaking of the tenure of Irish property, said— " Titles in Ireland were in a most deplorable condition. In Ireland the registers were exceedingly bad, and instead of clearing up titles, and making them more certain, often in volved them in inextricable confusion." Lord Langdale, the Master of the Rolls, said— " The interference in such a case as the present is of the same sort and character as all the other legislative interfer ence with private property for public purposes, and because this interference is intended to secure the payment of debts, or the performance of private obligations, which would not otherwise be performed. It is not more, but somewhat less objectionable than the interference with private property and contract which is authorized by Acts for railways, docks, or other public works." . . . . Now ihat is the principle supported by these eminent legal authorities. As to your Bill of last session, I feel the greatest doubts as to the working of it, and my fears are confirmed by these remarks of the Muster of the Rolls: " I entertain considerable doubts whether the cautious pro visions made by the Commons to prevent sales for less than their value, are not only more than are necessary to effect their object, but so stringent as to impair the efficiency of the additional process which the amendments are intended to provide." The Noble Lord, you observe. speaks with the authority of a master.—(Hear, hear.) " Considering the caveats, the notices (sometimes difficult, if not impossible to serve), the valuations, the five years to elapse before a per fect and unimpeachable title can be obtained, the liabilities as for breaches of trust, and the powers given to redeem, it is manifest that the obstacles to sales under these provisions are very great. Perhaps they may, in their application, be found so great—in many cases where there is considerable complication -as to make the additional process impractica ble, and to leave to him who desires to have the benefit of the act that particular mode of obtaining it which was at first provided by your Lordships." No!, what was the benefit which Lord Langdale suggested as a substitute for the imperfections of the Bill of last year ? It was to go into the Court of Chancery.—(Hear, hear.) You substituted a more simple process, which Lord Langdale thought cumbrous and impracticable, and, as a remedy, he suggested a suit in the Court of Chancery.—(Laughter.) It is not for me to say a word inconsistent with the highest re spect for the Court of Chancery; but when the Master of the Rolls says that the new process which you adopted would be ineffectual, and that you must resort to the advantages, afforded by the Court of Chancery, I may at least refer to the Lord Chancellor, who presides over that court, as an autho city as to what that benefit would be. I find that the Lord Chancellor thus expressed himself on this subject : " He had been himself familiar with the practice of the Court of Chancery for many years past, and he well knew the great benefits which it conferred upon the public; but at the same time he should own that he would not willingly enter that court as a suitor, nor would he advise any of his friends to do so, if they could, with propriety, keep out of it (Great laughter.) His Lordship was quite willing to enter the court as Lord Chancellor, but not in any other capacity.—(Laughter.) That is the opinion of the Lord Chancellor as to the remedy which the Master of the Rolls thinks would be more effec tual than your Bill of last year. The Lord Chancellor would not wish either to enter the court as a suitor himself, or would not advise any of his friends to do so if they could pos sibly keep out of it. My Hon. and Learned Friend behind me (Mr. Napier) has taken rather a statesman's than a lawyer's view of this matter. I know that any lawyer could get up and say that it would be utterly impossible to effect what I want to have done. I would not stand before a lawyer a single instant on such a point—(Laughter) —but if you admit the principle, it would, I think, be better for all parties to facilitate the transfer as much as possible.—(Hear, hear.) Why are we to be deterred by legal difficulties, and by all the chicanery of a court of equity, if we can effect an object which we believe to be most desirable without taking any step that is not consistent with equity and justice? What did you do with the Land Improvement Act? You enabled the Treasury to advance money for the improve ment of estates. lam only astonished how so useful an Act was allowed ever to pass through both Houses.— (Laughter.) Applying purely legal and equitable princi ples to it, here is a model of an Act. I believe the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who sits near me ( Mr. Stewart) pro pheaLA the failure of the Act. Here is the Act-10 and 11 Vie., c. 13—" Money may be advanced for the improvement of estates in Ireland," with (all the incumbrances, and all these different complicated tenures, the head landlord, the intermediate landlord, and all the incumbrances. You want to improve an estate, and you know that for all these par ties to give their consent is hopeless, and you provide, there fore, that notice should be given of the intention to improve, and those parties can object if they please; then the paymaster of civil services decides whether the objections are futile and irrelevant; if they are so, he advances the money. He ad vances money on the estate, with all those complicated tenures upon' it, and then there is a rent-charge fixed on the estate. Now, suppose the rent-charge is not paid for two years, how does the Crown proceed to recover this money? The paymaster of the civil services, as soon as the rent charge has been in arrear two years, may apply in a sum mary manner to the Court of Chancery for an order for the sale of all or a competent part of the land to defray the charge. Now, what does the Court of Chancery do? " The Court of Chancery shall be authorised to direct the pay master of the civil services. without any further process, writ, or other proceeding, to raise by sale the amount of the rent-charge due at the time of the sale, the surplus to be paid to the owner or the Accountant-General of the Court of Chancery, for the benefit of the parties interested. The pur chaser shall not be bound. to see to the application of the money—any conveyance executed by the paymaster of the civil service shall be binding, and conclusive, -and give all estates -a. .right and title." Now, that is the way in which you solved that difficulty. The paymaster of the civil forces „says to the Lord Chan cellor, " here is an arrear of two years," aad the Chancellor n bef i k enee !rem.. ...I THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, issues an order compelling the sale of that estate, the pay master gives a title against all the world, and the purchaser has nothing to do with the application of the money. Now, let me ask you why you cannot apply the same rule to estates in great arrears of the poor-rate?—(Cheers.) Now Ibe to call your attention to that. It is proposed that the arrears on certain estates should ha remitted. I hope they will not be remitted.—(Cheers.) Now one must, some time or other, determine whether or no legal obligations imposed on estates shall be imposed or not.—(llcar, hear.) Ido not see why, if there be an arrear for poor-rate for a certain time upon an estate, I do not see why these estates shou'd not pay the arrear, and if they cannot pay, why you should not sell a portion of them to cover the amount due.—(Cheers.) Now, does that enable a commission to sell such portion of an estate as will be sufficient to pay off the arrears of the poor-rate, and then enable the commission to give a simple title against all the world, the purchaser having nothing whatever to do with the application, the Court of Chancery hereafter applying the money for the benefit of the rever sionary interest, and the benefit of the encumbrancer? Then you have the means at once of releasing a certain quantity of land in Ireland, and inviting new capital and new enter prise for the cultivation of it. But let your process be simple, and let your title be perfectly secure. The arrears of poor-rates is a lien on the land in Leland, consequently you have a perfect right, as it appears to me, to releas3 a portion of that from the incumbrance, and by taking that course, invite capital, and invite enterprise, and invite small proprietors. Don't transfer these estates from one insolvent proprietor to ancther. If you de, you will do no good. This commission having got these estates, would not throw the whole on the market at once, but they would enable small proprietors, with perfect security as to title, to come and follow the example of that young Lan cashire man who cultivates vegetables, lives upon the pro duce of the land, and writes home to his friends that he does not think there is any country in the world more profitable for investment than the west of Ireland. Now I really hope that the Commission would succeed greatly in facili tating amicable transfers. It would bring parties to gether who would be convinced that there is no use in main taining the present state of things. The parties would be broug,lit together, and improvements would be proposed. I cannot doubt that there would be amicable negotiations on these points, and if you had the land to dispose of, I believe you would find not only individuals, but I believe you would find companies in this metropolis, disposed to follow the ex ample of those great companies of London in the reign of James 1., disposed to do so, less, perhaps, with the hope of gain than with the hope of making a character by faci litating improvements in Ireland. I believe you would have great companies coaling forward investing capital for improvements. That, therefore, is my suggestion for this commission to take into consideration how we can remedy the present distress, by encouraging drainage, by encou raging local improvement, by opening roads to inaccessible districts, by facilitating the erection of piers for the pur pose of the fisheries; by promoting, under sound regula tions, emigration—not interfering with voluntary emigra tion—above all, addressing themselves to that main question, the facilitating the transfer of property from in solvent to solvent proprietors—directing their whole atten tion to this point, to abandon the present injurious system of giving gratuitous relief, whether in exchange for labour or not, but reverting to that wiser principle of the Act of 1838, establishing that natural law for the present, and sub stituting the only effectual test, the test of the workhouse, as a proof of poverty and destitution. Sir, I can with pride say, that I propose this suggestion, in so far as it has refer ence to the transfer of property, with the utmost hesitation as an unprofessional man ; but I am deeply sensible of the necessity of applying a remedy. I cannot but believe that if you are convinced of the evil as I am, that common sense will cut the Gordian knot of legal and technical diffi culty—(Cheers)—and that you will at once say, " rather than let the present state of things continue, we will oust the jurisdiction of the Court of Chancery, and supply a special tribunal." You have ousted the jurisdiction of the Court of Chancery in a hundred places—(A laugh)—and you woulff not permit a title to be made for five years. Agree on the principle. Have a tribunal composed of men of the highest legal authority to decide on the case at once, with a right of appeal to the parties, and we shall overcome all the diffi— culties which exist, and I trust to the aid of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman behind (Mr. Napier), and to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman near me (Mr. Stewart) who saw the difficulty when this Act passed last session. I trust to their willing aid in this matter. Reject this proposition if you will, but propose some other. If you can do so, I for one will give you my most cordial sup port.—( Hear, hear.) Ido net know what any one may ap prove of—as many differ from me in this matter—l have riot sought to know that. I have been governed by nothing but a deep sympathy for the sufferings of the people of Ireland. —( Hear, hear.) I have felt that some measure is impera tively wanted, not only for the advantage of the people of Ireland, but for the people of this country.—(Hear, hear.) Let us remember it is impossible to free ourselves from the connexion—the expenditure (we understood. Occasionally the Right Hon. Baronet turned his back to the gallery, dropped his voice to an undertone, and was occasionally quite inaudible) must be maintained. The miserable condition of Ireland is shown by the proceedings at the last Tipperary Assizes. Only just consider in what manner the destitution of the Irish people affects the condition of your own labouring poor, by the emigration to this country, which you cannot prevent.—(hear, hear.) What is the consequence of the sweepings of Ireland being poured into this country? See how it affects the condition of the labouring classes here. 'lf you could divert this im migration into other countries, instead of a mischief, as now, an immediate benefit would be conferred on Ireland .and on England. The danger is not so much want of employment in Ireland, but what is to result from the invasion of the English labour market by so many Irish poor. There is one other consideration to which I wish to draw your attention. You must recollect the condition of that part of the empire—you must observe its geographical situation. You must recollect that while in one point of view Ireland is a source of strength, on the other hand she will prove a source of great peril and weakness, in the event of hostilities on the part of a foreign power with this coun try.—(Hear, hear.) A great man, whose authority I reve rence, has some remarks bearing on this point. Speaking of the plantation of IT 16ter in - the tithe of 'James, Lord Bacon remarked " that by adopting the suggestions he had thrown out, great safety was likely to be given to the King's estate in Ireland, by preventing those hostile attacks of foreign powers which the weakness of that part of the kingdom had heretofore invited.'—(Hear, hear.) This was written 300 years ago, and it must also be recollected that in the province of Munster an 1 adjacent parts there were now four millions of inhabitants, of which 95 parts out of 100 are Roman Catholics.—(lleur, hear.) You have to a certain extent the sympathy of the landed proprietor, but then that sympathy has been greatly weakened by the deso lation which has occurred, and by the reduced condition of the proprietors in consequence of the operation of the poor-law. Lord Bacon said the weakness of that kingdom invited hos tile attacks. It is true, we have had the happiness to be exempted from those dangers which other countries of Eu rope have undergone—we have been free from invasion. But recollect that during the last century, since 1759, on three different occasions, the attempts of France have been directed towards that part of the United Kingdom to the social improvement of which I am attaching so much import ance.—(llear, hear.) In 1759 the attempt at invasion of the west coast of Ireland was only defeated by the de struction of the French fleet commanded by Admiral Couplans, by our fleet under Sir E. Hawke. In 1796 again a great attempt was made by France to invade that part of the country wheie now the most distressed unions are situated. The attempt ou Bantry Bay was only defeated by the weather. In 1798, in another of those distressed unions, Killala, a landing was effected, and the first town visited by them was Balling. A small force of 1,100 men maintained a position in Ireland for 17days, and I think that the town was in the occupation of the French for a con siderable time. I revert to these things for the purpose of reminding you that peace may not always continue, thatyeu may have formidable combinations against you, and that Ireland is the weak part of your empire. And if by any decisive efforts you can promote the happiness and welfare of the inhabitants you are nut only promoting her internal peace and advancing her internal prosperity, but, as Lord Bacon said, three hundred years ago, you are taking security that the weakness of that kingdom shall not as heretofore invite the foreign enemy to our shores.—(Hear, hear.) The same high authority says " that as in the natural body, if there be any member affected, it is enough to draw all ma lign influences and humours to that part, and to interrupt the health of the whole body ;" so it- malign influences — still to quote that emphatic language—if malign influences humours and rheums continue in the social body, they will interrupt not only the health of Ireland, but the health of the whole of the United Kingdom.—(Hear and cheers.) In the evils which afflict the natural body there may be means of cure. "If an unprofitable member offend you, cut it off and cast it from you; if the tree be unfruitful and cumbereth the ground, you may root it up." But you have no such remedy for evils that affect the social body. You must bear with them ; there is no summary remedy. These evils will continue afflicting Ireland, and affecting you deeply at the same time. It is your interest to abate them, if possible.—(Hear, hear.) I will take hope from the extent of the evil. If nothing of this kind had occurred, we should have pursued the same course.—(Hear, hear.) We should never have made up our minds to vigorous exertion to re lieve ourselves from the calamity. We should Lave gone on trusting to the potato, a bad and insufficient food, and every rear growing more and more insufficient. But it has pleased God to afflict us with a great calamity, and I do not despair but that you may convert that calamity, grievous as it is, into a means of future improvement and future security.— (Cheers.) I do entreat of you to consider whether, out of this "nettle, Danger," we may not pluck this "flower, Safety ;" and convert this grievous affliction into a means of permanent improvement and a source of future strength.— (Loud cheers ) Mr. SHAFTO ADAIR had, In the first instance, to ex press his great gratification at tee high and statesman-like views taken by the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down.—(Cheers.) And if in the course of his own address he went still further than the Right Hon. Gentleman in his views, he trusted he would give him the benefit of his sug gestions and great practical experience. He rose to address the House as one representing an English constituency —as one who was intimateiy connected with both countries— and who would not designate himself an English or Irish man, but a British subject. As one, however, intimately connected with that portion of Ireland in which an active opposition was evinced towards the rate in aid, he should implore the lions° to consider that they were now ap proaching one of the most important subjects which could come under their consideration. Ho would put it to the sound portions of Ireland, if it were not as much their interest to contribute towards the relief of the poor, as i t was for one hundred in England to support the poor of an other. As to the repayment of the workhouse loans already advanced, he should not insist on that being done, on the principle of mutual forbearance, and that such a demand, under present circumstances , would be highly injurious. It appeared to him that the money raised by the rate in aid should, if possible, be administered by vice-guardians; or, if by local guardians, that at least a paid public officer, respon sible to the Government, should be associated with them. And as it was of the utmost consequence that no arrears of rates should be suffered to accrue, he would not have recourse to a rate in aid until the ordinary poor-rates were not only levied but collected ; and if that was found impossible, lie agreed with the Right Honourable Gentleman the Member fur Tamworth, that all estates on which such rates were due should be sold for the amount. Much had been said as to the inefficacy of the rate in aid to meet the exigencies of the case; but he was not inclined to think that the probable sum raised would not prove sufli uient for all purposes. It had been argued at great length that the measure'was not of a temporary nature; and if that were so, he should not support it; ,and he thought that an intimation ought to be given to that House and the country at large, that it should not be continued for a longer period. The Hon. Gentleman then referred to the 16th report of the Poor-law Commissioners, as showing the extreme destitution in the west of Ireland. Upon considering the circumstances of these districts the House must come to the conclusion that a measure was necessary of a more general nature than that submitted by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth. The "lon. Gentleman here entered into various comparative estimates of the solvency of these local distriet-a-and drevillid conclu sion that the western districts were every day sinking lower in their present state. of destitution; some great and c e o a t r n . prehensiTe memo Tray therefore nemiary.—(Hear, hear. MARCH 31, 1849, The advance of money unconditionally rather encouraged indolence than activity. He proposed that a commission be established with even larger powers than those suggested by the Right Hon. Gentleman Their first function should be to interfere with the poor-laws; and, secondly, they should have the power of examining titles, and sell so much of an estate as might be necessary for arrears of rate. In addition to these powers be would add an equity jurisdiction for quickly determining questions as to mortgages, and to ascer tain whether it would be for the interest of the country that sums should be advanced on these securities. He would give them power to inquire into the circumstances of encum bered estates, and if it should appear that the publ c were justified in making advances on the security of these estates, ho would unhesitatingly recommend that these advances should be made. He believed that, under the circumstances, no other immediate course could be taken than that adopted by the Government. At the same time he hoped that re membering the words that had just fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel), they would, in a calm and dispassionate spirit, attempt the greatest of all tasks ever es sayed by a British Legislature -the regeneration of Ireland. Capt. BATESON had not the opportunity of being present when this subject had been previously discussed, and he therefore trusted that he Amen be excused at this late stage , ;f the measure if, connected'as he was with Ulster, he now rose to protest against this most unjust, most impolitic, and most unconstitutional measure.—(Bear ) He would do so, despite the sneers at what had been called sixpenny loyalty. That sneer came from persons who for years had lived on sixpenny and shilling contributions, and who, though they could find money for agitations subversive of the welfare of the country, now wished to be chargeable on the loyal inhabitants of Ulster. The scheme of the Noble Lord was, in his opinion, worse than that of the author of " the or ganization of labour," for he laid it down as a principle, that those who received relief should be employed, whereas the Noble Lord proposed that the western unions shouldibe supported without any such condition. The Hon. and Gal lant Member then entered into a series of statistical state ments, to show that the funds had been most improperly applied to the support of paupers in the receipt of out door relief who had no right to it. It really appeared to him that the Noble Lord wished to see only two cl , sses in Ire land—his paid officers and his paid paupers.—(Hear, hear.) The Irish Members had been taunted with not bringing for ward a substitute, He said it rested with the Government to propose measures—they were responsible servants of the Crown, and the Irish Members had a right to eschew these measures, and to throw them out if they could, if they were not to their liking. With respect to the income-tax, it would be remembered that in 1842 the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth had given them an increase of the spirit duties, which was considered as equivalent to the income-tax ; and he asked how the House could expect that, after three years of famine and disease, they could now bear an additional impost ? The farmers of Ulster had been almost ruined by the free-trade measures of that House, yet they had supported their own,poor, and were prepared to contribute their fair share to the expense of the State, but they were determined not to pay the debts of these bankrupt unions. If money must be had, and he be lieved it was necessary, let it come from the Imperial Trea sury.—(A laugh.) At least the Act of Union still existed, and upon it the people of Ulster took their stand.—(Hear, hear.) What was wanted was a firm, honest, and up right Ministry, who would see that property in Ireland did support its own poor, and if it could not do so, then the sooner it changed hands the better. He told the Noble Lord that if this measure passed it would be impossible to collect rates at all in Ulster; and he would remind the Noble Lord that last year, when the standard of rebellion was unfurled in Ireland, the Ministry had found the value of the loyalty and the courage of the people of Ulster—who, notwithstanding great cause of complaint on their part, rallied to the aid of the Government, and enabled them to put down insurrection without bloodshed. He implored the Noble Lord, ere it was too late, to pause before inflicting this great cause of disaffection upon Ulster. If by carrying such a tyrannical and oppressive measure, he at length alienated the loyal people of that province, upon his own head be the sin and the responsibility of the act. Mr. H. GRATTAN believed that the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down was mistaken. He believed the people of Ulster were loyal, and that they would not become disloyal for sixpence.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the plan of the Right Honourable Baronet, he looked upon it as a cheap and easy mode of disposing of the landlords of Ire land by a Chancery process. He admitted that while the Right Honourable Baronet was Secretary for Ireland he made, perhaps, more personal and private friends than any one who ever held that office; but he would remind him that the destitution and difficulty which now existed in Ireland was not the result of the failure of any particu lar crop. If they had a Union in fact, as they had in name, why should not the destitution of Ireland be relieved from the Imperial Treasury. Supposing the Right Hon. Baronet's plan, with regard to the sale of estates in Ireland, were to be adopted, what would become of the landlords and their families, and what would become of their tenants? He could not support the Government proposition, considering it unwise, unjust, and unconstitutional. Mr. BRIGHT moved the adjournment of the debate, which was agreed to. THE AFFIRMATION BILL. The order of the day having been read for further con sidering the report on this Bill as amended, Mr. P. WOOD thought this stage of the Bill should be passed, and the discussion taken on the third reading. Atter a conversation, in which Mr. Goulburn, Sir F. Buxton, and Sir G. Grey took part, it was agreed that this stage of the Bill should be passed, and the third reading take place on the first Wednesday after Easter, the 18th of April. The House adjourned at half-past Twelve o'Clock. PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS. (From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons.) FRIDAY, MARCH 30. STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE. The following Resolutions were reported from the above Committee : 1. That in the case of the Norfolk Estuary (Amendment of Acts and Powers of Contribution by the Eau Brink Com missioners of Drainage and by the Corporation of King's ',yi - 1.1381, petition for dispensing with the standing order requiring the deposit of a petition against a Bill within seven clear days after the second reading, and for leave to present a petition against the Bill, the standing order ought to be dispensed with :—That the parties be allowed to deposit a petition against the said Bill, in the Private Bill-ottice, on or before Wednesday, the 4th day of April ; and that it be an instruction to the Committee on the Bill to entertain the said petition. 2. That in the case of the London Gas Light Company (Amendment of Acts) petition the standing orders ought to be dispensed with :—That the parties be permitted to proceed with the Bill on giving notices of the application, in three successive weeks, in the London Gazette, and in some one and the same newspaper published in the county of Middle sex; and that the Committee on the Bill do examine, in the first place, how far such order has been complied with, and do report the same to the House on the report of the Bilk—Resolutions agreed to. BANK OF ENGLAND. (From last night's Gazette.) An Account, pursuant to the Act 7th and Bth of Victoria. cap. 32,fcr the Week ending on Saturday, the 24th day of March, 1849. ISSUE DEPAIITMEN T. Notes i55ued........ 28,582,185 X 28,582,185 M. MAUSUALL, Chief Cashier. Dated the 29th day of March, 1849. BANKING DEPARTMENT. Government debt • . 11,015,100 Other securities •• •• 2,984,900 Gold coin and bullion 14,250,616 Silver bullion .....• 323,569 X 28,552,185 Proprietors' capital • • 14,553,000 Rest • ••••. • • • • • 3,863,344 Public deposits (in cluding Exchequer, Commissioners of National Debt, Sar i ngs-bauks, and Di vidend accounts) • • 7,565,694 Other deposits .. •• .. 9,317,120 Seven day and other bills •• • • • •. • • 1,082,564 £36,331,722 Dated the 29th day of March. 1 Government securi- tles (including Dead Weight Annuity) .. 14,072,844 Other securities .... 10,614,922 Notes .. •••.•• • • • • • • 10,953,350 Gold and silver coin.. 740,606 £36,331,722 M. MARSHALL, Chief Cashier. TILE IRON TRADE.—The last fortnight has been passed very quietly, but the former buoyancy of the market has not yet been recovered, although we are happy to learn that the tendency is favourable. The works are everywhere in full operation for present orders, and the workmen all steadily em ployed. Some houses have on hand contracts that will consume a considerable portion of next quarter in the completion, and though they have latterly been ne gotiated, dependent upon the ensuing quarter-day ar rangements, a better disposition to do business appears to have been gradually arising within the last few days. Opinion fluctuates very much, and various conjectures are hazarded as to the position which will be taken at the quarterly meetings. While the sanguine talk of putting on the other 10s., which would bring bar iron to 81. per ton, others anticipate that even the 203. already par tially declared will dwindle to what has been actually obtained, namely, 10s., and this would leave the price only 71. per ton. Those of more moderate views advocate a determined stand at 71. 10s., which, it is asserted, will give general satisfaction both to buyers and sellers. No doubt the decision of the usual ironmasters' meeting is waited for with great interest, and a considerable bulk of next quarter's orders will be given out as soon as it is known. A statement has been circulated in some of our contemporaries of an advance having generally been demanded and acceded to the work men. This we believe to be a slander upon that class altogether without foundation. The state of the trade has hitherto been too critical, and it is yet too uncertain what course it will take, to warrant any such step. On the other hand, much sense and good feeling have been shown by the workmen in abstaining from a premature applica tion. A better spirit prevails among them, and they are becoming conscious that with their employers, as a body, a general readiness exists, at all times, to gladly afford them a participation in any improve ment at the earliest opportunity compatible with the interests of the trade. Very little is doing here in the pig trade, but prices are firm at the advanced quotations, as is the case with the Welsh. The Scotch trade is represented as rather dull, with an accumulation of stock already amounting to more than 40,000 tons. The coal trade is also becoming rather flat, a usual symptom of approaching summer, heightened on the pre sent occasion by the depression and consequent inacti vity of agricultural interests.—Aris's Birmingham Gazette. [ADVERTISEMENT.] A Remarkable Cure of Dropsy of the Chest by Holloway's Pills.—Extract of a letter from Mr. Munday. farmer, Kennington, near Oxford, dated Dcc. 2, ls4B :—To Professor Holloway ; Sir,—Having on a former occasion apprised you of an extraordinary cure upon myself by your invaluable medicine, it gives me great pleasure to testify again to its efficacy in a case of dropsy of the chest with which my shepherd was afflicted, to whom, the moment I was informed of the nature of his complaint, I recommended a trial cf your Pills, which advice was adopted with complete suc cess, for by taking a few boxes only he was perfectly cured, and is now in sound health. —Sold by all Druggists, and at Professor Holloway's Establishment, 244, Strand, London. DUTCH CATTLE AND PROVISIONS.—Some time since permission was given by the revenue authorities for the cargoes of steamers, arriving at the quays on the river side, to he discharged at once, and to commence at an early period of the morning, without awaiting the requirement of the usual forms of report and entry being observed. Application has recently been made for the privilege to be permitted to two Dutch vessels which have Leen appointed to run from Holland to the metro polis in the provision and cattle importation trade, and as there appeared to be no objection to their being placed on the same footing with the other vessels employed in the traffic, the request has been. conceded, THE STANFIELD-H. 4.0 MURDERS. TRIAL OF BUSH. (FROM OUR, OWN REPORTER.) NORWICH, THURSDAY. To. day, as yesterday, the greatest excitement pre vailed here with respect to this very remarkable trial. I t i s tho all-engrossing theme of conversation in the town . As early as seven o'clock numbers of persons ,heg,an to congregate about the gates Of t h e ca stle. At eight the gates were opened, and the ruth that took place to get good places was, as may be imagined, vigorous in the extreme. By half •past eight o'clock every available space was filled. A number of respectably-attired ladies were accommodated with seats in the galleries, and at the rear of the court. Notwithstanding the crowd, the utmost good order prevailed, owing to the admirable arrangements of the Rev. Mr. Postell, the Chair man of the Visiting Magistrates of the gaol , and Mr. Persian, the Governor. The accommodation for the large number of gentlemen of the press from London and from the local papers, and the courtesy shown towards them, deserve special commendation. A large number of county magistrates were present. The jury, who had been provided with beds in a large room at the March's Head Hotel, during the night, entered the be x at half-past eight. A gentleman favoured me this morning with a copy of a letter from Rush, to the proprietor of the Bell Inn, immediately before the opening of the Commissit n. It appears that Rush had been restricted as to diet i❑ the Castle during his incarceration in common with the other prisoners, which rule is suspended, I understand, during the Commission ; hence the following strange letter:— " Norwich, March 24, 1849. " Sir,—You will oblige me by ordering my breakfast this morning, and my dinner at the time your family have theirs. Send me anything you like, except beef; and I should like cold as well as hot, and meal bread, and the tea in a pint mug, if with a cover-all the better. I will trouble you to provide for me now, if you please, till after my trial; and if you could get me a small suck. ing pig in the market to-day, and roast for me on Mon day. I should like tho cold as well as hot alter Monday, and it would always be in readiness for me, as it will be so uncertain what time I shall have for my meals after Monday. Have the pig cooked the same as you usually have, and send plenty of plum sauce with it. Mr. Persian will pay you for what I have. By complying with the above you will very much oblige your hum ble servant, " JAMES B. Rust. " Mr. Leggett, Bell Inn, Oxford-hill, Norwich." The litter in which the unfortunate servant girl was conveyed to the court yesterday was made by two lu natics, a turner and a carpenter, at Thorpe. As yes terday, a great number of persons were unable to obtain admission to the court, among whom, I understand, were several of the most influential residents in the county. Rush entered the dock at ;nine o'clock, but retired again to speak to some one. He looked a shade better than yesterday, and more anxious. Mr. Baron Rolfe took his seat OH the bench at nine o'clock precisely. The prisoner was then placed in the dock, and delibe rately and systematically arranged his papers whilst the jury was sworn. lie appeared collected, and during the pause that ensued before the appearance of the first wit ness he carefully surveyed the audience. Rush then applied to have the witnesses sent out of court, which was complied with. He also complained that a new witness, named Bow, of bad character, was to be brought against him. Would his Lordship instruct the reporters to publish the man's character? Wherever he came from, he came from a bad place. Mr. Baron ROLFE said he had no influence over the reporters. He might bring forward evidence to show that the witness was unworthy of credit, but that was not the proper time to do so. He could take no heed then of what he had said with respect to the witness. Rush persisted in saying that William Frederick How was a person of bad character, and trusted that those who could prove that he was what he said would come forward. It was too bad to bring such a witness forward, more especially as he had had no previous notice. This was the first time he had heard his name in these pro ceedings. Mr. Baron ROLFE said he could not hear him in the matter at that stage of the inquiry. Emily Sandford was call« d, but from some cause she did not appear. After a pause of some minutes, *Edward Harvey, a carpenter, at Wymondham, was (APO. On Tuesday evening, the 281 h of November, about half-past seven, he and three others went from Wymondham to the hall. It took him about fifty minutes to walk, as it is two or three miles. Mary Clarke, the laundry maid, John Dodd, and Thomas Howe were with him. There is a gate at the outer side of the bridge near the hall over the moat which surrounds the hall. The gate is thirty ur thirty ' five yards from the door of the hall. When we got up to the gate Mary C:arke went into the house. I stood at the gate. Shortly afterwards he came out again, aecompaniad by one of the maids. I open( d the gate to i let llohn,s aid Leach through. I was ,h,-n looking direct towards the hull. I Eh-refired a If fah; it came more from the kit aide of the p , rch looking from ihe bridge than on the left. I could see the porch. I saw a figure. I saw a light after as it com ing apparently from the hall. I heard a door shut very loadly. The others had walked on toff - arils Kettering ham. I followed them, and had gone a little way fur ther, about forty-five yards from the house. I heard a second report, but not so lout as the first. I did not see any flash. I proce, fled on. Before I did so I heard the alarm-hull mg. . . . _ Rush heru asked when the witness left Wymondham; being sitting ut the time, Mr. Baron RoLFE remarked, that it was usual for counsel and prisoners to address the Court and the witnesses s'anding. He bad observed that the prisoner had not done so either to day or yesterday. It there was any reason for his sitting he would permit him; but if not he saw no reason why he should not adopt the usual course. Rush rose, and said he had sat for the convenience of re'eret ce to his papers. He could state no reason why he shou:d sit; he would therefore stand. Tho prisoner cross-examined the witness—Mary Clarke went into the house for a few minutes. The night was very dark ; not so dark, however, as to prevent him from distinguishing a person whom ho met. There were trees about the hall, which made the place darker than the open space. Ile saw a spark of wadding fly up ten or twelve feet after he heard th,! first report. Ilad never been examined before a magistrate, and had never signed his name to the depo sition be had made : was examined before the Coroner, We all stood near the gate whilst Clarke went into the house. The figure, I think, was on the left side of the porch, and a yard or two from it. We were talking and laughing at the time we heard the report. From the time we arrived at the gate until the first shot was fired about eight minutes elapsed. I think it was the porch door I heard slammed, I had not quite overtaken the others when I heard the second report. I believe that a light appeared in the porch after the first shot. Ido not think I could have distinguished a person passing by the light; there is room for a person to pass by the window, which was high, without obstructing a light, and pass away without being observed. lam sure it was a door that was slammed. I had got from 150 to 200 yards from the hall before I heard the alarm bell. Clarke had gone with a message to Mrs. Jermy. I saw no one from the time I left Wymondhatn Lodge till I got to Kettering, except those I have mentioned. Emily Sandford was then called. She was dressed in mourning and looked very pale. Sho was quite col lected arid firm. Bush hastily rose after she had been sworn and said, the witness could prove his innocence—he felt it his duty to say this, for ho possessed in such a matter as this a higher power than his Lordship. Mr. Baron Rolm: said ho would hear her evidence— if she committed perjury she was liable to punishment. The whole case was for the jury to judge. It he could satisfy the jury of his innocenco no one would be more glad than himself. Prisoner (in a loud voice)—l wish her well to consider what evidence she is about to give. Mr. Baron ROLFE—You do )ourself no good by that observation. Prisoner—l cannot help it, my Lord; I must prove my innocence. Mr. Baron ROLFE—No ono will bo beeter satisfied than myself if you should be able to do so; but you cannot speak now. Prisoner—l never have been angry with her for eon tralictinfr !her first evidence. I o n ly want h er to spea k the truth', and-- Mr. Baron ROLFE — Prisoner, you are entitled to be in court when evidence is given unless you misconduct yourself. With that hint perhaps you will sit clewn. The implied threat, which seemed to be very grateful to the audience, had the desired effect on the prisoner, who never took his eyes from the witness. She occa sionally turned her face towards him with an expression which was distressing to observe. Emily Sandford, examined by Mr. PRENDERGAST— She said she became acquainted with Rush two years ago, and came down to reside with bim at Stanfield Hall. In February, 1848, they went to London at No. 2, Milne street, Islington. She went by the name of James. On the 3d of October she remembered persons named Larner, Thomas Jermy, and Richard Read, coming there at seven in the evening. Some writings were produced ; they were in, her handwriting. ( The witness frequently looked at the prisoner, but only for a moment at a time, when she withdrew her pr.. Her look on these occa sions evinced much pity and concern.) Rush had pre viously told her to copy the document. She did so, and he gave it to her. IVben the parties above named came be produced the paper; it had been lying on the table from the time she wrote it. It was read over aloud by some one whom she could not ao.v remember. She saw all the parties put their signatures to it. The witness was here asked to move her chair forward. Rush suggested that she should have a footstool. The witness burst into tears, and repeatedly looked at Rush with much concern. A footstool was brought. Examination continued—She put her name to it after they were all gone, at Rush's request. Mr. Rush was to pay the expense of transmitting . the papers to the coun try. Mr. Jermy and Mr. Larmer were cousins. The three left at nine o'clock; she never saw any of them after, except Read. Next day but one, the sth, came to Norwich by Mr. Rush's . direction, He had left on the • 4th. She understood from him that she was to go to the Rowling.grcen Inn, Norwich. Rush met her at the railway station, and took her iu a gi to Ptsrna. Ile took me ove r th ere i n h i s gig. (Theg witnosath• eshe fa n de scribed the situation of her bedroom at the farm.) W sle together that ni g ht. O n F r i day the prisoner proposed e oinp t over to Stanfield-hall. lie sa id t h at the boy Savory gcouldg drive me on in the gig to Norwich. When the gig was brought round the prisoner did not say where they were going, but after we were on the road he said he was going to Stantield-hall. I wished to go as far as possible, because the ground was very wet. We cross e d several fields, and when the gig could get no further he proposed I should remain in it. I wished to go with him, and we went together to the gate leading over the moat at the hall, leaving Savory, the boy, with the gig. He went to the hall, and when he re turned I asked if he had agreed with Mr. Jermy. Ile said, " No, but I trust we will." I asked him to drive me over to Norwich. He said he would if he bad not to meet Mr. Reed, an attorney, who was coming by the mail. Savory drove me over to Norwich, where I got my boxes. I went over to the Bowling-green Inn. In consequence of something that passed between me and the landlady, I left next day and went to the Swan. I wrote to Mr. Rush, and be and Mr. Reed came to me. I understood they were going to London. Reed went to walk about the town, and Rush was left alone with me. He asked me to copy some papers, and produced them. After he left me I began to copy, and next morning he called and told me that I need not trouble to do it. I cannot say whether the paper was destroyed or not. Mr. Rush returned from London on Saturday morning., and we breakfasted together, after which I went to Mrs. Stacey's by his desire. He went home, and I cannot say how soon after he called for me there. When he came he said he had souse writing to occupy my time, and produced a paper to copy from. He also showed me some paper on which to write, and which was stamped. I did as he directed, and we dined together afterwards. After making the first copy he wanted me to make another of the same paper, which I did. That also was on a stamp. He took both copies away with him. The Sunday after that he came again and showed me one of the pieces of stamped paper. (Here the witness leant back weeping and quite overcome. Her emotion appeared to be caused by a hurried glance which she took at the prisoner.) On showing me the papers he said, I want you to put your name to what you wrote f or me t h e other day. I think he produced both the copies I made.—The prisoner interrupted, when The JUDGE said, had anything been added since vou wrote the papers? Witness—l observed that the words - " I. Jermy" had been added.—(Sensation.) He asked me to write my name and the word " witness " after it ; which I did. He left me about four o'clock. I remarked to Mr. Rush that the paper was dated on the day we went to Stanfield, and that he made me a witness though I did not go in. We had some words about it, and he said he did not wish to make me a witness. He told me that the papers were only copies. I wrote on Monday a letter to him on the subject, but I can't say that he has destroyed it, or has said so to me. Mr. Edward Cann, clerk to Mr. Cann, the solicitor, was here called, and proved the serving of a notice on the prisoner demanding the production of the letter. Prisoner—l am quite willing that the letter should be produced if such has been found among my letters. Mr. Cann, the solicitor here stated that no such letter had been found among the prisoner's papers. lie was subjected to a cross-examination by the prisoner of nearly the same character as yesterday. The JUDGE explained to the prisoner the effect of the evi. deuce just given as to Miss Sandford's letter. The prisoner was proceeding to say something, when The JUDGE said—We can't hear any more reasons; that is my judgment. Examination of Miss Sandford resumed—ln the letter I wrote I complained that it would be swearing falsely to be a witness. Ile came next day and was very angry at me for writing, saying it was very indiscreet to write about such matters, and asking me if I had a copy of the letter. I went to look, and found one in pencil, which I gave him, and he tore it up. Nothing more passed between us on the subject, and he left me the same evening. I saw him after that some day in the week, when he told me that on the Friday following I should go to Potash. That was Friday, No vember 3. He took me thither, and when I arrived I found young Mr. Rush before us. I took possession of his bedroom, which has a closet attached. Young Mr. Rush had his wife and servants there. We made that room our parlour and sleeping.room for about a week; after which I went down stairs one day to air the furniture, and then re turned. On the Tuesday before the murder Mr. Rush produced a paper for me to copy on stamped papers, which I did. When they were finished Mr. Rush took them, and said he was going to take the original to Mr. Jermy to sign. I had made three copies, I believed all the same. Mr. Rush was away from about half-past 11 o'clock till nearly two o'clock. I asked him if Mr. Jenny had signed the papers? and he said " No," that he was going to call in the after noon again on his way to Fehningham. Ile said Mr. Jermy had behaved very kindly, and that he appeared as if they had never had any words, and that he was a strange man. He also said that young Mr. Jermy kept coming in to hear what the conversation was, and that old Mr. Jermy desired him to leave the room, telling him he was not wanted. After dinner Mr. Rush told me I had better take my walk, saying he had a little writing to do. I returned in about half an hour, and found a great many papers on the table. After I had put off my things he asked me to put my name to two of the pacers I had written for him, which are those now pro duced. He said, "Put your signature to these and the word witness"—holding the papers, as he Said so, only open at the bottom. After I had written my name he signed the pa pers also. When 1 signed I could not see the words " Isaac Jenny," which I now observe on one of the papers. It was not there when I copied it. On signing the other I think I observed the words Isaac Jenny. Mr. Rush did not sign it after me, as he did with the first paper. On Friday the 24th, Mr. Rush dined at Potash, and during the day told me he 'had seen a fresh stake driven into the ground, from which i understood that poachers had done it. He said that he should go out to-night atter them. On other nights, be fore this, he had been out in the evening, and atter I had been at Potash for three or four days he told me that he wanted to be out after poachers. We had tea about six, and as he was standing at the passage windoW, while it was being got ready, he said, " Make haste awl get the tea ready, it is just 11:e night for those rascals." While he was at tea he wanted a little spirit in it, complained of being unwell, and asked to have some gin put in it. I recommended brandy; buckle said he preferred gin, and went to get it out of the 1 'set in his bedroom. _flaring got it, he poured some into his cup, and asked me to have some, which I did. lle then drank some from the bottle, saying the gin would keep the cold away, as he was going out. Ile went down, and gave his son some letters to be posted at Wy mondham, afterwards returning to his bedroom, and giving n.e directions to leave the tea things, mid go into my own room. lie told use to put out the light and watch James up the road ; he would go in the gig, and when I heard the rattling of the wheels, to let him lirow. I did so, and he said, " Very well ; you return to your , own room again." At this lime he was in his beds om, the door being shut. When I returned 1 closed the door, ho having on other simil ar occasions told me to do so. I asked him to take savory with him, as it was dangerous to go after poachers alone. lie shut the door as he went cut, but I did not hear him lock it. Ile returned about half-past eleven, and I !remit him come in at the front door, and come upstairs. Il e opened the p assage d oor , and said, " Where are you?" to which I replied, " Here, in your room." Ile then said, " Step into your own room a moment" I had a light, which I lett behind me, and did as he desired. I th en heard him g o i n t o his bedroom and shut the door. I heard the latch, but I can't say if it was locked. 1 had no oppor tunity of seeing him on his return, more than when he went out, which was about half-past six or seven o'clock. 1 re mained in my own room for about a quarter of an hour, when he opened the door of his mom and said, " Are you not coming in ?" When I entered he was in bed, and I thought the spirit he had drunk had affected hint. I told him, " You appear tipsy, and it's that nasty gin." He said, " Yes, I was a tool to take it, and I feel very unieell." I then made him some tea. I noticed that night that his stockings were very muddy and wet above the ankles as they lay on the table. He was asleep some time before I got to bed, and I roused him to take some tea. In the course of the night, and about two hours after I had gone to bed, he sat up in bed, and said ho had lost something. lie got up to look about the room, and found his keys under the bed. Ile then unlocked his closet and turned over some things there, after which he said he had got it, and it was all right. He said if he could not find it he must go out and search for it. The witness here hung down her head, and the JUDGE asked if she wanted refreshment? She said, after a little hesitation, that she wanted to suckle her child; whereupon leave was granted her to retire. During the whole of her examination in chief the prisoner kept his eye constantly and steadily fixed on her face, ceasing altogether to take notes of what was said. She, on the other hand, rarely looked at him, but when she did so for a moment her tears began to flow, and her voice was chocked by emotion so as to be almost inaudible. After an adjournment of a quarter of an hour, The examination of Miss Sandford was resumed—She said, Mr. Rush was at Fehningham on the Saturday after, and said that there had been a tire there; that the ser vants had set fire to a closet ; that some papers had got wet, and he brought them with hint to dry. On the Sunday, the 26th, he was occupied in arranging his papers and burning some. On Saturday he said, he had bought a ticket for Madame Dulcken's concert, at Norwich. on the Tuesday. Thu ticket was far five, and Mr. Rush and I were to go and meet a governess and two of his daughters. On Monday, after dinner, lie told me he had given the ticket to his son fames and his wife, and I asked him how he and I were to go ? to which he replied that we were to go by our selves. Monday was my birthday. Young Mr. Rush had remained at Potash up to that time. On the 27th I left the bedroom and went to live in the parlour, young Mr. Rush having left. Before going he brought me some loaves and butter to serve until his return. The servant left also, for I went to ring the bell, and Mr. Rush said, " Whom do you want ?" I said, "The servant," and he replied, " She has gone home." On the Monday I had dinner and tea as usual, and Mr. Rush went out afterwards, but I did not ace him either a h b a s d e n t t e amaobroeuthan t six o'clock. an hour an in going ou d t a or h c li o lf n . tin I had been preparing for the concert , but a few n i n ihe l j f e u Tuesday not t ve minutes before dinner Mr. Rush came up stairs, brought his g ' un and fired it off. Ile went out shortly before tea, and at tea he said he was not well. We had a great deal of con versation. He asked me if I was much disappointed at not going to the concert, and I said, " No, not in the least, if you are unwell." He said that we should go next morning instead. During the conversation he said lie should go out that night again. Mr. PRENDERGAST—What did you say? Witness—l ob jected to his going, and said, I was sure there was something more than poaching. Mr. PREEDERGAST—What did he say then? Witness—. He said there was something more he would not have me know then, but he would tell me another time. Mr. PIt ' ENDERGAST—What followed ? Witness—He asked hoe - many times he had been out, and 1 said five or six times. Mr. PuirinitneAsr—What did he say then? Witness— That ho should only have two or three times more to go out, and then he should succeed. Mr. PRENDERGAST—What had you been reading then ? iVitntss —The Scottish history, which I read sometimes, and sometimes he. Prisoner—Ask her whst I did say? Mr. PRENDERGAST—What did he say? Witness —Ire asked if I recullectt•d that anecdote of Bruce; he succeeded the seventh time. lie thought he should too, and he would try again that night. Mr. PLZENDERGAST—What were his words? Witness— "Do you recollect Bruce watching the spider? It made several attempts to spring to the wall. It tried six tittles and failed ;on the seventh it succeeded." The Scottish chief succeeded, and he thought he should succeed. Prisoner—l complain that counsel below are interfering. I want to know if there are any more then_three counsel. The JUDGE—There are not. Witness—Seeing his :eyes fixed on me, I asked him why he looked at me so, and he cried. He left about half-past seven o'clock. I went up stairs during the afternoon, and there were the remains of a fire in his bedroom. I went up the first time and the bedroom door was shut, which was unusual. The fire was quite out in the evening when he went out. I was in the parlour at the time, and he was in his bedroom a quarter of an hour before going. I heard him also go to the keeping room, ,but did not see him. I then k ear a him go sight through the back prey 1044 I.