The Sun. — London, England, 1824-06-16 00:00:00

hirn from his seat with merited disgrace.—(Ffear, hear, hear !) —He could say this with More freedom when speaking of a Government who had acted on principles diametrically appo site to those which he felt it to be his duty thus to con demn. The House was aware that on the '36th of last De cember, it had been proposed to England, on the part of the King of Spain, by a Gentleman whose name was not familiar to him, the ount Offiala, that he should accede to a Con gress to be held on the Continent of Europe. This was to enable his Most Catholic Majesty " to accomplish his worthy object of upholding the principles of loyalty and legitimacy." That was to extend to South America all those blessings which his mild sway had bestowed upon Spain. The answer given by this country on that occasion was what it ought to be, it was what no man who had English blood in his veins would not re joice to - hear. Had it been different there was no man who would not have felt his blood boil with indignation. The an-- swer was a rejection of the proposition and a declaration that England would act on her own policy. She would wait a rea sonable time, as well in the hope that doing so would serve America us because it might be well to spare what remained of dignity (he could not say how decimally small that might be), to the thing which was called the Go . vernment of Spain. On this occasion the language used was so admirable that he must beg particularly to call the attention of the douse to it. It ran thus— i• But-irappears manifestto the British Government, that if so large a portion of the globe should remain much longer with out any recognized political existence, or any definite political connexion with the established Governments of Europe, the consequences of such a state of things must be at once most embarrassing to those Governments, and most injurious to the iriterests• of all European Nations." There•was one other part which he must press on their attention by reading it to them, and he wished he had nothing else to do than to read such compositions •to the House, instead of con veyingto them his ideas in his own poor language: The part ,to which he alluded set forth that 'England had no wish to an. ticipate Spain,',but, on the contrary, desired that the parent State-should have the grace and the advantage of leading the way iretherecogriftion. It went on.. 1 !. But the Court of Madrid must-be aware, that the discretion of his Majesty in this respect cannot be indefinitely bound up by that of his Catholic Majesty; and that even before many months elapse, the desire, now sincerely felt by the British-Go vernmentatoleave this.precedency to Spain, may be overborne by considerations ofa more comprehensive nature ;—considera tions regarding not only the essential interests of his Majesty's subjects, but the relations of the Old World with the New." This was the state in which the documents which had been pub lished left the question. What had since occurred he could not say. It was .rumoured that Spain had desired that England should reconsider her decision as to the propriety of acceding to a Congress, or Conference, on South American Affairs, in -which all the other European Powers concurred. He had also heard, and from what was seen in the documents before them, he could not doubt the fact, that England had still been Eng.. land, and that in this business she would have nothing to do with the proceedings of the unholy Holy Alliance. Would to God, she had always acted such a part—would to God,. that she kept as clear from their past misdeeds as from , - this new conspiracy —and above all, would to God, by her ab sence or otherwise, she had more decisively opposed their doings at Verona, which had led to such lamentable results. It had also been stated, that so long as Spain should continue a French province, that was so long as' her country was occupied by a French Army, any armament fitted out from her ports against • South America, to use his own figure, he under stood them to be resolved not to allow Spain to be used as ; the fang of the Holy Allianc e , to w o u nd the nearly inde pendent States, as in that character, though very feeble in her self, she was capable of being aimed. with thre e -f o ld s t ee l, and of being forced into the heart of America. The present ' petitioners contended that the recognition of South American Independence would be no breach of neutrality, and he con curred with them, and was confident that no Power in Europe could be so impudently unjust at to complain of it, much less to venture on any attack on the policy 'of England, formidable as she would be in such a cause. He threw out of his 'consi deration with disdain all that the Holy or Unholy Alliance might presume to urge in such a case. Having said so much in favour of the recognition of South American independence • now, he thought it right to say, that he did not use that word in a metaphysic a l s en se . Some contended that thcre was no present tense. He, when lie said now, meant in a very short time: To this question liewisbed for an answer, that if necessary the subject might yet be • fairly and dispassionately discussed before the end of the Session. He learned that Com missioners as well as Consuls, sent out from this Country,were now in the Capitals of South America. The speech of Colonel Hamilton to the Viceroy of Columbia was before him. lie did not know that what he had seen was right, but supposed it to,be kenerally so, and from that he judged it to be the object of Government to extend the amicable.. relations now existing between them and this country. Two conditions had been stated in..a speech made by the Earl of Liverpool—the one, that the independence of a country could not be recognised where the contest.with the parent State continued ; the other, that it was inconvenient to recognise the independence of a country which had not gained a stable Government. He considered that he hid the Gentlemen opposite on one of the horns of a dilemma Ia this case. Either they,considered the South American Go vernments as separate States, or as a confederated body. He would take the first supposition, and doing so, though his geo .. graphy, -or rather his recollection so far failed him, that he could not state the number of degrees of longitude or latitude which thewhole of the countries which were Spanish America, might comprehend, but he thought countries extending from California nearly to Cape. Horn mighrbe considered to em brace a moderate and respectable territory. In this vast • extent what stand did Old Spain make.. She had a Castle in Mexico, a little half desert_ island in Chili, and a small twiny in' Guatemala. • Now such being-the-state of things con -sidering them as separate States,' what objection could ther e /se to recognize Colombia, where there was once a great eSpanish army which had completely failed, and been wholly annihilated or driven away. -Three Republican Assemblies had held their sittings since the Spaniards were repelled. Were loot the Columbians by the absence of Bolivar in Peru, .to he ~considered as advanced to that state .in which the United Pro vinces of North America were seen when General Washington -.resigned, namely, in such 'a situation that any man, however - important, might be spared ? He would ask what objection could there be to recognise the independence of Buenos Ayres, where a Spanish.soldier had not been seen for more than ten ,years ; where in fact a Spanish soldier was no more to be seen .than a Jacobite at the present day was in England. From what he had read of Chili in Mrs. Graham's description of a .residence there, which seemed to place the reader in the heart ~of the country she wrote-about, it . seemed to him that country was in such a state that it must soon be recognized. Looking -at the States then as eme body, he would ask, when the Spanish force in them was so inconsiderable, what was there to delay .the recognition of independence. Surely it was too insignificant to justify them in pausing on this subject, and if the States -were not considered as - one body, what was there against taking the course which he recommended in those countries .-where there was no Spanish force at all ? In acting on the second•condition mentioned by L or d Li verpoo l, and declining to • recognize the independence of a country which had not gained a stable'Governmenn•we should proclaim that we had two weights ,and measures for America and 'Europe. While we de c lined recognising as independent the South American States, we te -cognised- Spain as such, though she was not tranquil, and when sheewas overrun by a foreign army, which it had been stated .in that House it was humanity not to withdraw. Why should a country . which had known so many vicissitudes as England refuse to infant! States the common 'courtesies due to foreign Powers, because their Governments were in that 'situation in -which it must be expected they would be found. We ought not, to refuse to send Ambassadors to them, unless it were proven .that they were in such a state that a Foreign Minister 'could not reside there with safety. But if it were sale they were •in this situation, then he..would ask why were Consuls sent. If it were proper to have them there, he thought it would be right -to have higher Diplomatic Officers there also. The moment the Court of Madrid. was found unable to afford redress if a British subject were wronged on the England had a River Plata, right to seek it where it could be found, andany delay that might take place in doing this from regard to Spain, was a courtesy which she had no right to expect. He believed there wer e from sixty to one hundred houses of trade established in South r America. Our commerce there had rapidly increased. _o From the petition received from. Liverpool, it appeared that its amount, which was in 1822 3,800,0001. rose in 1823 to 5,600,000/. being an increase of 1,800,000/. in value, and that too in t he -course of a single year. The exports of cotton to North Ame rica had largely increased, but the increase in the exports to laouth America were still greater. The increase of the former in one year had been 1,000,000/. This increase in the latter case amountedto 1,100,0001. He referred to Captain Hall's hook in term s of warm- praise. This he thought completely proved the i mportance of extending our commerce in that quarter, and o f doing . a ll in our power to civilize South America. He d escr i bed himself to have met with aMexi can mountaineer, who, being asked by a Royalist why he objected to the had is 8 relied I have not much . to say .a him, but that he,ooo. miles Off, and if a King IS good for any thing, we might as well have him here. Asked what lie thought of a free trade, he replied—that all he knew of it wa s, that it enabled himoteliget that shirt for two dollars, for which he was farmeryb Atilt° Pay nine. He then set forth 'the great advantages pug commerce from extending ,our connection with South Ameii m ea u . st commerce would blessings both on thoseconfer petition who to th e tau those who received. formerly which Spain fori ; considered necessary to the preservation d S o uth A m erica,: It was. seen in the L iverpool eLe'xi7c:hdlsi'oonn that the loyalist General ,Cantarac was authorised to act on the old laws of Spain. .He had threatened to confiscate British property when found where he prevailed, andhad only abstained from doing so, in one instance from kindness to those who were ignorant of 'those laws. lie concluded by expressing a hope that he had abstained from using language that could offend any`one, admiring tha papers issued by his Majesty's Government, and declaring he could see no reason for delaying to act on the prin ciples 1 - ‘hich they embodied. Such delay would only serve to raise up faction against faction, and man aainst man ; it would prolong scenes of violence, blo o d, a nd disorder; and perse vered in would make those countries which might yield strength and advantage, prove the source of inconvenience and mischief to the civilized world. This ought not to be done, when, as set forth in the papers to which he had referred, it would be to no end ; nor ought the present disorders to be prolonged even to give the King of Spain or Count Ofalia an opportunity of: accomplishing their" worthy purpose." He would not recom mend a breach of neutrality to serve America, he would not advocate injustice to serve the commence of England ; but every thing that was not inconsistent with neutrality and justice he would de to serve British commerce, and restore order in America, and preserve sixteen millions of men from blessings of that sort—from that description of cilaw, of order, of liberty, of justice, and of mercy, which F er di nan d, since his restora tion to power' had been employed in shedding over the whole Peninsula of Spain.—(Hear, hear!) The following Petition was then brought up itpd read : " To the Honourable the Commons of the United Kingdom in Parliament assembled. tc The Petition of the undersigned Merchants of th City of London. " Sheweth—That 7 our Petitioners are engagon, in trade with the countries in Ameri ca ; formerly under the dominion of Spain. " That the entire extinction of Spanish authority in the greater part of that Continent, and the encouragement by the Government at home, induced your Petitioners to embark in that extensive commerce, with full confidence that it would re. ceive the most complete protection, and ultimately prove most beneficial to themselves and the country at large. The mea sures adopted by Government most decisively demonstrated the anxiety to acquire and secure this intercourse. " In the Session of 1822, an Act of Parliament was passed, cap. 43, authorising the importation of goods, the growth, pro duction, or manufacture of any country or place in America, being or having been apart of the dominions of the King of'' Spain,' either in British ships, .or in ships, the built'of those countries. In the following year Consuls were appointed to proceed to the ports thereof, and subsequently there has been made public the declaration of his Majesty's Government, that in its opinion, the recognition of such of the New States, as have established de facto their separate political existence, can not be much longer delayed.' Your Petitioners further humbly represent, that many millions of capital have already been embarked in this trade ; that large commercial establishments have been formed both in South America and at home . ; and that past experience affords the strongest around for believing that this commercial intercourse will admit of great extention, the reciprocal de mand for the productions of the respective countries being con stantly increasing. '" Your petitioners consequentlyfind themselves greatly em barrassed by those countries remaining 'without any recognised political existence.' Not a week passes bid they are assailed with rumours of themostalarming kind, involving ,ti ieir proceedings in doubt, hesitation, and distraction, and grieVously destructive of that confidence so essential to the success of all commercial undertakings. Your Honourable House must be well aware that no commercial intercourse can be permanently carried on with security and advantage to those concerned, if it is rendered liable to fluctuation by constant alarms of political changes, necessarily producing sudden and excessive alterations in the value of the property embarked. " That your petitioners are enabled to state, and to pro - ye unequivocally to your Honourable House, that in the several States of Colombia, Buenos-Ayres, and Chile, there does not remain the smallest vestige of Spanish dominion in any shape; each State enjoying its own separate and independent Govern ment from all interference of a hostile force. ' " That the revolution which has produced this alteration in the political condition of these countries, has now been in pro gress fifteen years. In Buenos Ayres - there-has not been. a Spanish'soldier in hostility for eight years. In Chile.there has been none for four years ; and in Columbia the third 'annual Constitutional Congress is now sitting. In none of-these States does there exist any party, or persons in possession of power or, authOrity, excepting the constituted Executive Government: " Your Petitioners, therefore, humbly submit that these States have established de facto their separate political exist ence ; and are, Recording to the practice of nations in former instances, entitled to he .rec.:gnizetl asindependent Govern ments; butalley ivould not have presumed to address your Honourable House on a question of this nature, if the continued delay in recognizing this political existence did not produce the most detrimental conseqnences. to the commercial transactions in which they are concerned.• • , • " Your Petitioners, therefore, most humbly pray that your Honourable House take this question into its serious con sideration, and adopt such measures as to its wisdom may seem tit, for proFnoting• the immediate recognition of the independ ence of such of the States of South: America, as hive de fdcto established the same. And your Petitioners as in duty bound will ever. pray," &c. On the question that it do lie on the table. Mr. Secretary CANNING said, unquestionably he wet far from having any reasons.to complain of the tone of his-Learned Friend, or of the topics on which he had touched, and if the observations which he was about to make on his speech, or on the petition, should, in point of -extent; bear no proportion to what had fallen from his Learned Friend, he hoped this would not be supposed to arise fronihis undervaluing thnimportance of the question, or from disrespect to the Learned Gentleman. His Learned Friend must be as, well aware as he was, that though in the last year England had had great commercial in terests connected With . South America of the most important and legitimate kind, there were also interests of another sort of a more daily fluctuating nature, on which every word that he ut tered might produce effects, neither lie nor his Learned Friend could desire to see produced. He would therefore rather refrain from saying what he might otherwise offer on the topics which had now been brought forward, and confine himself as much as possible to a statement of facts, 'with no other qualification in the shape of argument but such as might be necessary for explanation. His Hon- Friend had gone through the papers ' which had been laid before the House, and had given a most just analysis of the course hitherto pursued by his Majesty's Government. He had said the first question in point of order was the line of conduct to be pursued by England between Spain and her Colonies while they were in a state of war. This he had admitted was properly decided in favour of a perfect neu trality, and such decision, conceding to the South Americans equal belligerent rights with the parent State, did, pre tanto, in the same degree elevate them to that rank which they claimed. lie had also truly stated that our commerce with them in 1822 did lead to another de facto recognition of their separ a tion from the parent in the reco g niti on of the national flag. He had then said that the next step taken was preidous to the war between France and Spain, had been to intimate first pri vately to Spain, arid afterwards publicly to the world, that our recognition of the independence of the new States would be determined by other circumstances than thee - recognition of them by Spain, and in part by the• internal state of the colonies themselves. "Further his Learned Friend had said, after these steps had been taken and this declaration made, which left neither to Spain nor to any other Power cause of complaint against Great Britain, if England had acted on the principles she avowed, it bad last year been thought right to_suspe_nd ..doing - so even - to the ektebt of sending - commercial agents to South America till the decision of the contest between France and Spain'shoulcl be known. :Inimediately after the war termi nated, or rather, at the moment of its close, and before any step could be taken by France, or by any other Power, a warning in the clearest terms of the course which England would take, in the - event of - any conference or congress being held on the sub ject of South Americanaffairs. The Learned Gentleman had stated what' that course was. Of the next stage of these transactions, of the proposition -to this country to assist at such conference or congress, and of our refusal to ,do so, first to the other Powers of Bilrope, and lastly to Spain herself, the House was already apprised ; and lastly, he had described that stage of the discussions which had been the subject of a debate in that House. The last time the question came before them it was stated that the King's Government, though they reserved to themselves the right of acting as the interests of England might require withrespect the South American States, considered it to be right, politic, expedient, just, and generous, to give Spain the opportunity of taking precedence in recogniz ing their Independence, and to abstain from taking any step whatever till her decision on this question should be-known. — Spain had decided against the recognition, and no further steps had been taken as yet. What had passed left this country free to act on her own views, without any further reference to Spain.— ( Hear !;—This was all he h a d to say, an d h e wou ld go no f u rther back to say that enlarging on this subject there was danger, which it was his duty to avoid, and not to incur; but were he to enter into any general statement of the views of Government, even hypothetically, he should incur danger instead of avoiding it.— Here would he end, but that his Learned Friend had given him an opportunity, for which he thanked him, of speaking to the differ. ,mt meaningS attached to the word recognition. It was perfectly true that that word had various meanings, accord ing to the situations in which difnient countries stand to each other. If the colony should say to the mother -country,-..“ I assert my independence," and the parent State should there upon reply.---" I recognize it that confirmed th e indepen dence ; but if the Colony should to another Power say— " I am independent," and -that Power reply;---" I assent to it:" such recognition might in fact, but would-not .necessarily confirm the independence claimed. Recognition could not be forced from the mother country, Fire, and sword, and vio knee could not procure it, and th us h e th oug ht hi s Learned Friend furnished the clearest argument in favour of the course which his Majesty's Ministers had taken, in withholding the minor recognition, in the hope that, when given, it might be accompanied by that of the parent State; recognition by England or any other power would not carry with it the force of a recognition by Spain. If then the English Govern ment had looked exclusively to th e inte r e s t s of the South American States themselves, it mi g ht h a ve a ppeared but pru dent to delay for the chance of obtaining the most important recognition of a 11... Whether allhope of gaining this was now at an end was another question. It was another question whe ther now acting on our own views the recognition should take place. That which was a natter of fact he had stated positively. On other ma tters he should be silent. He was afraid the sim ple fact of recognition had been misunderstood both here and on the other side of the Water. Though nothing was more simple than to ask for recognition, recognition was often claimed from the expectation that consequences would follow which belong to it. Great as the boon recognitionof f did not n ryly g c h es t sa b ri eto any new State,' it would be a fatal concession if it were given in one sense, and taken in another—if the simple acknowledgment of independence were to be taken as the . pledge and promise of future co-opera tion and alliance. At home, many persons connected with the commercial interest, expected that recognition by Eng land, would have the effect of confirming the existing Go vernments of South America more than they could be con firmed by the recognition of any single Power. He was, therefore, most anxious that no misconception should prevail in this respect, and that 'no exaggerated idea should be taken up of what would be the consequences of recognition by Eng land. The Learned Gentleman had put two cases which lie had designated a dilemma. He did not see that it was one.-- He had asked, whether they considered South America as one 'peat mass, or as separate States,: and contended that in the Omer the insignificance of the force opposed to the whole justified their recognition ; in the latter, that the absence of all foreign opposition- would justify the recognition of particu lar States. Ile had no hesitation' in saying they did not con.' siderthe whole of the States as one body, seeing it was not pretended that any one GoVernment had been established to pre •side over all. Regarding them as separate States, though he would not be so scrupulously exact that it must in all cases be ascertained that a country, before it was recognized as in-, dependent, should possess a stable Government, and be in a state of perfect repose, may still be of opinion that some pre- cautions were necessary. Ministers were not indeed bound to be correct in the opinion which they formed, but they were at least bound to form an opinion, and to be careful that as a neutral, they did not 'mix themselves up .with the questions in dispute between the Colony and the Parent State. His Learn ed Friend was-aware that it was matter of fact information.— As yet, the Government were not in the possession of all the information which they desired. Even with respect to that which the Learned Gentleman had mentioned as having lately taken place in Colombia, he knew nothing but from the channels through which it had been communicated to his Learned Friend. He had seen what he thought must be rather an exaggerated statement, but he had no authentic record of the fact. This lie would say; that to all those general prin ciples which had been laid down in the diplomatic corres pondence, on the part of this country his Majesty's Ministers firmly adhered. Every thing which they had done promised proofs that they were proceeding in execution of the plan which had been laid down, and he thought his Hon. Friend approving of that plan, that proceeding to force this subject into discus sion, would not advance, but perhaps might retard, that pro ceeding which he desired to see resolved upon.—[The Right Honourable Gentleman having taking his seat amid cheers feom both sides of the House, rose again for an instant to com municate a fact, the statement of which he had overlooked, which yet might probably be gratifying to the House, which was, that a second application had been made to the Govera ment of his Britannic Majesty to become parties in the Con gress about to assemble, which application, though pressed with urgent .entreatiea, had been again stedfastly refused.]-_ (Cheers.) Mr. ELLICE spoke in favour of the recognition of-the State' of South America, as most important to the commercial interests of England, , Mr: BROUGHAM express4d hi s admiration of the Masterly speech of his Hon. and Learned. Friend, and his perfect con currence in all those-great-principles which he had advocated. lie also expressed his general satisfaction at the statement which they had heard frond the Right Hon. Gentleman. With regard to those imrtiediately connected with the great com mercial .interests so deeply involved in• the question, they too must be satished. Nothing was ,more satisfactory to him than the fresh assurance' That -this Country' would not become a party to.any Congress fordebatik upon the affairs of the SOuth American States, which, in all events,' must have fettered us in any proceedings , relative to lithe particular province of Mexico. But the 'mist satisfaction was to be derived from that part of the. Right Hon. 'Gentleman's statement where he said that for the want of authentic and official inforMation (meaning, as he supposed it must be meant, information from our own accredited Agents) this Government were not able formally tudeclare a formal recognition. Yet that when such r information arrived (for -to that • it amounted), announcing that any one of those great and free countries had established for itself a substantial existence - independent of old Spain ; then forthwith, upon that assurance, an acknowledgment of the independence of such State should issue from this Government. --That acknowledgment could not b e v i ewe d as any breach of neutrality, and could not have the effect of involving us with the mother. country. But by 'no possibility could our eon, duct be canvased by any other country.—(Hear, hear !) There was no shadow Of ground upon which France, or Rus sia, or Austria, 'or Prussia (God help us!) should presume to ask why he had taken such a - course.—(Hear, hear !)—lf such information • should be received of any State having acquired its substantial and independent existencs, as un doubtedly they had, this would be the course expected by the country. In addition to the other reasons why it should be adopted, might be stated the constant inconvenience experienced in the Courts of Justice, and the want of security for the parties who had contracted loans, while those Govern ments remained unacknowledged. He had only further to ex press his concurrence in the wish that the period at which these steps were taken might be made as short as possible. Upon the bringing up of the petition. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH. said, that as the - House had been so generous in granting bim so much of their patience already, he should only further trespass on it for two minutes. He was happy to find the Hon. Member for the City of Lon don, With his knowledge of the feelings and opinions of the great commercial body whom he represented, approving the humble effort he had felt it his duty to make; He wished to call the attention of the House to one fact. In a published speech of Lord Liverpool's upon the state of the country, it was said, that of the forty-one millions of annual exports of this country, seventeen millions were for Europe, and six millions for the provinces lately under the power of Spain. Thus one-seventh of the whole of the exports of this country, were exported to the South American States, even under the disadvantages with which our merchants at that time had to contend. .In the ex ceptions and distinctions taken by his Right Honourable Friend, he was undoubtedly right as to differences with the mother country being a hinurance to the recognition of infant states who had not clearly established their independ ence. But this principle did not apply to internal differences. A foreign country had no right to contemplate such difference_ as being in existence. It was with the community they treated, and that community was..represented by any form of Govern- Merit existing for the time. ' He did not mean to assert that the contracts which had been privately ,made by individuals with foreign Governments were afterwards to be supported by our own Government by f orce. H e wou ld no t ex p ress an opinion upon the expedie ncy Of such loans ;he was quite sure he should never embark hi s cap i tal abroad— h e h a d :enoug h t o d o w i t h i t at home. But he apprehended that dealing in mover was as fair and honourable as any other kind of commerce, 'and as con. ducive to the increase of wealth and power in the country. Mr. Secretary CANNING said, that he did not blame those who lent their money for profit, nor deny that they had a per fect right to do it. But he must candidly own, that he did mean to state, that those who had so lent their capital would not have that degree of interest in the recognition of the States with whom they had contracted which they seemed to antici pate. He meant that there would be no. clause or condition re quired in the recognition by which those Governments would be bound to disch arge the debts so incurred.—(Hear, hear He was glad that his Hon. and Learned Friend had given him the opportunity o f b eing more explic i t upon this point. Sir J. MACKINTOSH observed, that the United States, in their act of recognition towards the Independent States of South America, made a declaration of neutrality towards them and the mother country. Mr. EVANS said a few words as to the necessity of having Consuls at St. Domingo, and put a question to the Right Hon. Foreign Secretary relative to that subject. Mr. Secretary CANNING replied, that there were no Con suls there. Sir F. BURDETT said that, as it seemed to him, the Right Hon. Gentleman had used great ingenuity and many words, to avoid stating: exactly what was intended by the Government upon the question of the recognition of these free States. He very He thereforethere could not understand th e re fi nements an d shad es o f recognition which had been dwelt on w i t h so muc h labour; t o hi m recogni tionsimple w or d, b ear ing a very simpl e an d ob vious th ou ght must be so me fur tlr was meaning. a motives for the delay than were brought forward: All that the Right Hon. Gentleman said amounted to this, that Mi nisters had not made up their minds as to what measures they intended to take. But he had heard that the Lord Chancellor had declared that he would not recognise the independence- of South America. This let in some light upon the delay. The animosities and heats which suspended the measure were not raging in Mexico—they existed nearer home.—(A laugh.)—lt was in the Cabinet they were formed—as must always be the case in a Cabinet so formed, divided as it was upon every great question, whether of foreign or domestic policy. He hoped the commercial world would not be satisfied with the explanations that had been given, and that the Learned Gentleman would bring the question forward in some shape, so as to compel the Right Honourable Gentleman to shew what were the. grounds upon which this mysterious policy was pursued. They had at last arrived at a state when the interests of the country alone were to be considered ; and therefore it was imperative upon the Right Hon. Gentleman to shew what were those interests of England which could be henefitted by any further delay. Under these circumstances he could not be satisfied with this non-ex planation at all, as he conceived it to be, Mr. HUME said, that when the question was put relative to St. Domingo, he should have expected from the candour of the Right Hon. Gentleman not only an answer that there were no Consuls there, but the reasons why they had not been sent. The property and persons of English merchants trading to that Government were left without any protection 'Whatever; and he had frequently been upon the point of calling the attention of the House to the case. The petition was then ordered to be printed. HONDURAS. Mr, ELLICE 'moved for copies and extracts of the Report of Captain Maclean, of his Majesty's ship Bustard, relating to the state of the settlement of Honduras.—Ordered. • GOVERNOR SIR NV: LUSILEY. Mr. - ELLICE renewed his notice of motion for to-morrow, relative to the conduct of the Governor of Bermuda. . • • SLAVERY. - Mr. WILBERFORCE rose to present a petition 'from the County of Carlow, and: to pray for the Abolition of Slavery. The Hon. Member, in• a tone of voice which rendered a great part of his .observations inaudible in the gallery, went into a statement of the situation of the slave population oflhe Colo nies, and condemned the course pursued by Government for ob taining the object of amelioration. The prejudices on the other side of the water went on increasing; and lie was. afraid that Melancholy effect arose in consequence of their misconstruing the course adopted, by his Right Hon. Friend. Indeed, .he was ready to admit at once that he believed the .policy which his Right Hon: Friend was pursuing to be both hopeless and dan gerous. The Hon. Member then dwelt upon the condition of the slaves, and stated that in Demerara the decrease of their population was two and a half per cent. greater thanin the other Colonies. .It never could he expected that the . resolu tions of Parliament could be carried into effect by leaving their execution to the owners of slaves. Was it likely that men opposed to them in feeling, and believing that they possessed opposite interests, should' co-operate with them upon - the very point of difference. They abhorred the means recommended.' by Parliament, and they abominated the end. Their pre judices were becoming greater and greater every day, and the course which the House was pursuing only added to their violence. At Demerara the authority of the Government was as much denied as at those places which possessed legislative assemblies of their own. They first published a resolution condemning Lord Bathurst's regulations, and then proceeded to one by which it was declared that all Missionaries should be sent .away. The great question in fact was, whether they should leave to those Colonial Assemblies the work of carry ing the intentions of Parliament into effect, or whether it should be done by the Supreme Power of the State. The Hon. Mem ber next alluded to some violent proceedings of the House of Assembly at Barbadoes, upon the presentation of a Petition temperately worded from the free People of Colotir in that Colony, praying to be placed upon the same footingas that impress upon held in Jamaica. He felt it to he his d uty to upon the. House the danger of the policy died wero,nOw pur suing, in working upon the feelings an hopes of the slaves, and then allowing their masters to withhold from them in one moment what had been granted or promised the moment before. He concluded bymoving that the Petition be brought up and read. _ _ _ Mr. BERNAL could not object to the presentation of this or any other petition ' • but he could not avoid rising to exp ress his surprise that the Hon. Member for Bramber should have taken such an opportunity for attacking the measures of the Government, and the conduct of the West India P ro p r i etors i n the manner he had done.- - --(Hear !)—At this period of the Ses sion, after -so many discussions had taken place : , to have come forward with' such a statement without giving the least notice to the parties which it affected, he could not but consider a little hard. If due notice had been given some one might have been prepared with an explanation or denial of what he must call the rather affronting charges of the Honour able Member. He complained that there w4s of fair ness and candour about the Honourable Membe6ll.-an:rber upon this question, which was neither manly,,nol becoming the character of a Christian and a British Seritor.—(Hear, hear !)--He had charged upon the white populatfOil of Jamaica that they had no desire to ameliorate 'the condition of the slaves. This, as a man of honour and a Gentleman, he al together denied. There might be exceptions, as that was the common lot of humanity, but he personally knew -that many proprietors, as well resident as absent, had done every thing in their power to ameliorate the condition of their ..cld la bourers and domestic slaves.—(Hear, hear !)But the - Hon. Member and his friends wished to have done in a' few months what every man versed in history would pronounce to be a miracle if done in a few years. If the Hon. Member wished to improve the state of the islands, it must noebe by adding these irritations at the end of the Parliamentary Session ; and if the Hon. Member thought that by so doing he was acting in a true Christian spirit, instead of following tip with coolness and steady perseverance the gradual amelioration of slavery, he differed from him , very widely. He must say that he thought these con tinual speeches, these repetitions of invective—(hear; hear !) were only calculated to increase and aggravate those dissen sion which alone prevented the views of Parliament and the Government from being carried into effect.—(Cheers.)—If the Hon. Member truly professed that spirit of Christianity, mode ration, and humanity, as he believed he did, he would reflect and not persevere in a course which could not fail of producing so much mischief and misery. He could not but seriously caution his Majesty's Government against attending to the proposals of the Hon. Member for Bramber, which, if acted upon, would endanger the very existence of our West Indian Colonies. Mr. Secretary CANNING said he rose with a desire, rather than a hope, to dispose of the present question. The Government had long since apprized the House of their views and intentions on this important subject ; and he could not but observe, that his Hon. Friend might very properly have made up his mind, either to allow his Majesty's Government to go on uninterruptedly in their course, or formally charge the Government with what he might conceive to be a failure in their plans, and bring forward his own. But, o f a ll th e un f ortunate occasions for introducing the subject, he thought the present was the most so : at the end of a Session, and without any formal introduction of it in the usual Parliamentary course. His Hon. Friend would surely remem ber that the system of which he complained had been the growth of ages, had been long established by the Legislature, and could not therefore be safely effected by any rapid alteration.— (near !)—But whether the 'course proposed by Ministers was right or wrong, it had been approved by Parliament ; and with regard to its probable success, or want of success, hi-for one would say that lie threw back from himself that responsibi lity which would properly fall upon those who interrupted the course of which they professed to disapprove, though they did not propose a better.—(Cheers.)—He did not think it just or par liamentary that all the questionable topics alluded ta by ilia lion. Friend should be brought forward as they had been that night, not in regular debate, but on accidental opportunity; and still less was it just that theyshould be touched upon in aggravating and inflammatory language. If the plan proposed by Ministers was not proper, or not sufficiently vigorous, it ought to have been brought to the usual test of parliamentary discussibn; but he begged that Honourable Members, if they disapproved of the plan, would net go on irregularly and in language so intempe rate. He believed that Government were not even suspected of shrinking from the question, which was admittedly a most difficult one, requiring perseverance on one side, and temper and much allowance on the other. His Hon. Friend appeared to regret that an experiment had not been tried ; but the point to which he referred had been considered and argued, and it was thought by Parliament that sufficient reasons had been adduced against it. He could assure his Hon. Friend and the House that no time should be lost in giving effect to the course proposed by Government, and which required much time to enable one to judge of its consequences. He repeated that no time should be lost ; but that he would say, let them not be pressed in this manner on a subject which necessarily required time, and involving a system upon which, in the abstract, he looked with as much honour as his Hon. Friend.—With regard to the particular facts alluded to by his Hon. Friend, he could only say that he was entirely ignorant of them ; though they would of course undergo every necessary inquiry. In conclusion, he again observed, that if his Hon. Friend thought any other course than that proposed by Ministers would be better, he (Mr. C.) implored him to bring it forward fairly, and not take the House by surprise in the manner he had done that night.— (Cheers.) Mr. WILBERT' OIWE and Mr. Secretary CANNING mutually explained. Dr. LUSHINGTON admitted that certain facts he had al luded to on the late debate respecting Mr. Smith were erro neous. With regard to the two persons from Jamaica, who had petitioned the House, he did not, when he presented the petition, pledge himself to the facts stated in the petition ; but it was rather singular that the informant of the Hon. Member for Rochester had not stated the fact now mentioned on the trial of these people. He should next session move for an in quiry into their case, and he trusted that his .'Majesty's Govern, meat would then be prepared with evidence to justify the send, ing away these persons as aliens after the question had been negatived in a Court of Law. HUSKISSON was glad the Hon. and Learned Member had.corrected his statements respecting the facts mentioned by him on the late debate. His lion. Friend (the Member for Woodstock), whose plantation had been alluded to, had done all in his power to give effect to the orders sent out by the Executive Government. . Mr. W. SMITH denied that his lion. Friend (the Member for Bramber) had proceeded on the subject with undue rapt dity. He (Mr. S.) had no doubt that the situation of the Ne groes of Jamaica had been , considerably ameliorated, though not so much as it might have been. lie did not wish by any means to hurry on the Government. Mr. BUXTON also denied that the abolition had been pressed with rapidity. He believed, 'and had always said, that the present race of negroes must live and die as slaves, but be believed that it was in the power of Government to re lieve their descendants. Those who advocated the cause of the abolition were not answerable for the consequence of agi tating the question. In Demerara, for instance, it was the Governor alone that ought be blamed for not having acted upon the instructions sent him by the Government at home. He now wished to ask what course Government proposed to take respecting the, free people of colour ; next, what was the extent to which the late Order .in Council was to be carried ; and, lastly, whether any measures were about to. be taken. by Government to punish. those who committed the recent outrage. at Bridgetown. Mr. W..IIORTON, in answer, read the copy of a letter sent; by the Colonial Office to the Governor of Barbadoes, express- . ing the high displeasure of his Majesty at the outrage com mitted at Bridgetown, and commanding that the 'most diligent exertions should be put forth to bring:the offender to justice.--.' (Hear, hear !)—With regard to the question of the Honourable Member as to the people of colour, he begged to say,that a legal Commission had gone out to Trinidad with: directions to Inquire into, and report the : condition of the people of colour there, to enable his. Majesty's Government to. ascertain the necessary facts before they proceeded to any, specitic,measure .. . on the subject. As to the Order in Council he-.had to phserve,, What he believed had already been mentioned in : t i le House, that it was intended to extend to all the Colonies not possessed of a Legislative Assembly.. He could not but beg to caution the Hon. Member. for Weymouth ageinst the use of intemperate.., language on this important subject, as the . proposed regulatiolis had been delayed as to Demerara. in consequence of what 110 -, tacen place .in that Colony. ; • Mr. MANNING, from under the Gallery, spoke a few wortti-, almost inaudible, respecting the improvement which had taken place among the Negroes in consequence of the late Order itt Council. Mr. BROUGHAM did not see that any blame was fairly attributable to his Honourable Friend, the Member for Bremner. on account of his introducing this subject to the notice of the House at the present advanced period of the Session. The subject in former times was accustomed to be discussed very frequently every Session, but this Session it had been noticed but twice—he said but twice, beceuse the disc u s s i on on M r . Smith's case had nothing to do with the general question. He had himself endeavoured, on that occasion, to confine the atten tion of the House to that particular case ; and he believed it had. - been so offered to the House that any Hon. Member who took his (Mr. B.'s) view of that case, might have voted for his motion, though hemight differ from him in the general queition. This was exactly the case with several Hon. Members connected with the West Indies, who, much to their honour, had voted for the motion. His Hon. Friend had therefore taken the only oppor tunity which was offered him this session, of stating his semi-' , ments on the subject, because a considerable number of the facts to which he alluded had only recently come within his know ledge. The subject had been brought forward not by his Hon. Friend, or any other Member on that side of the House, but by the Hon. Secretary opposite. He (Mr. B.), for one, con sidered that it would have been a great misfortune had the, op, portunity been lost for asking those questions of the Hen. Secre tary to which such satisfactory answers had been given. As to the gross outrage committed at Bridgetown, it had been commit ted, by 1,000 per.ons, consisting not .of the white rabble,' but of tkose who called themselves the most respectable persons in the colony, who not only did not seek shelter, but who actually invited notoriety and observation ; and it was a little ' singular that the police of Barbadoes had not been able to , bring one of them to justice.,. He trusted that between this and the next Session, Ministers would be enabled to inform the House either that some of the offenders had been brought to justice, or that means were taking to accomplish this desirable object. Much had been said about the danger which attended the language in that House; but he dreaded what was taking place in the Colonial Assemblies much more than he did what was taking place in that House. No revolt had before been ascribed to the discussions in that House, since they first cote , . . inenced, notwithstanding the extensive circulation of their pro. ceedings, and the many inducements which had existed to mis- represent them. The Colonial proceedings ought to be met by Government with temper, but not less with a firmness which ought to be shewn in their correspondence and all their pro ceedings. Even now he understood that delay in effecting the plans of Government would be occasioned by the proceedings at Demerara. Mr. Secretary CANNING said he had observed that the delay had taken place. Mr. BROUGHAM said he was glad to find he had misun derstood the Hon. Secretary. The Hon. Member for Rochester (Mr. Bernal), who had spoken on this as be did on every sub ject with much ability, had spoken of the alleged inconsistency of his Hon. Friend, the Member for trarnber, by saying that when he first advocated the abolition of the trade in slaves, he had distinctly disclaimed any idea of seeking the emanci pation of slaves, though he now called for that emancipation. The fact was, that his Hon. Friend had always held out that he had the gradual emancipation in distant view, though he carefully, in the first instance, drew the distinction between that and the abolition in the trade. He (Mr. B.) had with his own ears heard Mr: Pitt declare that the gradual emanci pation was the ultimate object, and he had no doubt that when the slaves were instructed in religion, and when the necessary regulations took place respecting the sexes, that this desirable object would be accomplished. Then, and not till then; did he think the emancipation would be safe. Until then' he. trusted the even course would be taken by both parties, and that one side would not be holding the present system too light, and that the other would not rashly and prematurely raise , hopes which, so raised, would be most cruelly disappointed. Mr. BUTTERWORTH defended the Methodists and other Sectarians from the charges which had been brought against them, of exciting such of the people of this country as be longed to their flocks, to petition improperly for the abolition. The Hon. Gentleman very warmly eulogised the Missionaries, and their discreet, patient, forbearing, and disinterested conduct, some of whom he said had been most cruelly tarred and feathered. Mr. W. HORTON explained. Sir G. ROSE spoke' of the good effect occasioned by the la hours of the Missionaries. Mr. BARING said, no person could read the evidence re specting the conduct of the Missionaries in Demerara without seeing that the instruction given the negroes was not suited to their condition. As long as the Societies at home mixed , up their prejudic e s w ith t h e i nstruct i on sent out to Missionaries, so long would the system of 'education in the Colonies be un popular with tile Planters. The negros was always looking in the newspapers for statements in their favour, and the Society at home took care that no ship should go out without all the pipers likely to give the black population the inferpation they desired. His opinion was, that "the state of irritation kept up Would be the destruction of the Colonies, unless the House should interfere, with a vie* to propose some remedy for the evil. Mr. HUTCHINSON deprecated the treatment of slaves in the West Indies ; Parliament could not sit silent while barba rities were practised on the unfortunate I3lacks. lie defended the conduct of Missionary Smith, and protested against the statement made by the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. Sir F. BLAKE thought his Majesty's Government ought to compel the Colonial Legislatures to do justice. Mr. EVANS said the Hon. Member for Taunton had attri buted the insurrection among the slaves to the instruction's sent out by the Society. The fact Was, one Society was not in ex istence when Mr. Smith went out nine years ago. Sir C. FORBES said, his opinion was, that the Missionaries would overturn not only the West, but the East India Colonies. The petition was th e n r ea d. heard 113 Memberll r r a l3 N c , hf loani c r harge suo ß e n x r t P oe Orinai Taunton. n u -esltt as that was i n s said,brought. forward h a s d ad a d h e b e l deliberate e a hr d ea t never e Hon.v e in tention to produce revolt and insurrection among the slaves.— That was a charge he should have been slow to make, and he could-only say it was not his intention to do any act so wicked and flagrant. It was said papers had been sent out to excite the slaves to hatred of the Planters. He knew of no such pro ceedings. He had never established any correspondence with slaves or any other person in the West Indies. His hope was the Hon. Member would not leave the statement where it was, but endeavour to ascertain the accuracy of his statement. Mr. BARING, in explanation, said he did not impute any thing disrespectful to tile Hon. Member for Bramber. He would however say that the Hon. Gentleman was not aware of the violence to which certain opinions must tend. His opinion was, that the society for the suppression. of the Slave Trade were so heated, that they pursued the Planters with hostility, in the expectation that their object might be accomplished by violence and commotion. Mr. BROUGHAM explained.—The Petition was then or. dered to be printed. THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH IN IRELAND. Mr. D. BROWN having waited seven hours to bring on his motion, was disposed at that ,late hour, not to press it on tho