The Sun. — London, England, 1849-04-03 00:00:00

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he should not meddle with that, but be wai :urpristd to find the Hon. Gentleman opposite recommending the issue of Exchequer-bills. With respect to the ermy, the navy, and the other great departments, Ito had kept the expenditure of the year as much as possible within the income, and he should not willingly depart from that rule in the case of the new buildings. There should b the fullest information on the subject given to the Hoire, but it was to be r emem b ere d that there existed certain contracts which could not be broken. Those contracts must be adhered to, but the Government did not intend to enter into any new contracts. Captain BOLDERO wished to take this opportunity of stating that he had, for the last three weeks, been sitting upon a Committee in one of the new Committee rooms, and that they had been so much annoyed by smoke that it had been necessary to have all the win dows open and to sit with their great-coats on—(A laugh)—and the consequence was that he had caught a very severe cold. This nuisance had, .however, been in some degree abated; but the ventilation of the Com mittee-rooms was most defective, and must produce an injurious effect on the health of all persons who were compelled to attend in them. The room where the Committee of which he was a member sat was crowded during the day, and on retiring from it, and returning after an absence of five minutes, the odour was most offensive—worse than that of bilge water. Mr. GREENE said that the ventillation of the Cone mittee-rooms, as well as of both Houses of Parliament, was originally intrusted to Dr. Reed, but by a resolu tion adopted by the Committee some time since it was taken out of his hands and committed to Mr. Barry, who had not yet had an opportunity of completing his arrangements. He (Mr. Greene) had no doubt, how ever, that a great improvement would be effected in the warming and ventilation of the rooms. Mr. EWART stated that in the room in which the Committee on the Insolvent Members' Bill sat it was im possible at one end of the room to hear anything that was said at the other end. Mr. GREENE had been informed that the best mode of preventing reverberation was to paper the walls with foss paper, but the Hon. Gentleman might rely upon it that endeavours would be made to remedy the defect to which he had alluded. The vote was agreed to, as was also a vote of 10,000/. towards defraying law charger. Oa a vote being proposed of 50,0001. towards defray in the charge for consular establishments abroad, Mr. HUME suggested that a considerable reduction might be effected in this department of the public ex penditure. It was formerly the custom, when a Mi nister was sent to a foreign court, that a ,Minister of equal rank, and generally with the same allowances, should be accredited to the British Court; but while we had Ministers at some foreign Courts who received the fall allowances, their representatives in this country had only third or fourth rate salaries. Lord J. RUSSELL :observed that, in consequence of the changes which were at present occurring on the con tinent, it was impossible to determine what alterations could be made in our consular arrangements. The vote was agreed to, as was also a vote of 50,0001. towards the charge for civil contingencies ; and the House then resumed. RATE IN AID (IRELAND) BILL. The order of the day for the adjourned debate on the second reading of this Bill having been read, Mr. BRIG iiT said that, as a member of the Com mittee appointed by that House to inquire into the working of the Irish poor-law, ho had voted in Com mittee for the resolution in favour of the rate in aid; he had else voted with the majority by whom that proposi tion had been supported in that House; and he was pre• pared to justify those votes. This appeared to him to be a question of life or money. It was evident from the testimony of witnesses examined before the Com mittee, from the evidence of persons in all parts of Ire land, and from the statements in the public papers, that unless funds were provided from some source to relieve the distressed unions in Ireland, tens of thousands of their fellow-countrymen in that part of the United Kingdom must perish. He was not prepared to justify a rate in aid merely on the ground of its necessity, be cause it might be justly contended that the same amount of money might be raised by same other mode ; but he would justify the restricting of this rate to I re l an d on the ground that during th e last three years the rest of the United Kingdom had paid a rate in aid for Ireland to a greater amount than the rateable property of Ire land was now called upon to contribute. Within the last two or three years 8,000,000/. or 10,000,000/. had been given to Ireland from the revenues of the United Kingdom ; a very large private subscription had been entered into, the British Asacciation having alone expended 600,000/. ; and by far the larger proportion of this amount (although Irishmen had supplied some portion of the funds) was contributed by the tax-paying classes of Great Britain, in addition to the heavy local taxes which had been thrown upon them for the support of Irish pauper immigrants into this country. In the city parish of Glasgow the poor rates last year amounted to 70,000/., and it was estimated that two-thirds of this amount were required for the support of Irish paupers, many of whom had been brought over as deck passengers by steamers from the Irish ports. In Manchester, the amount required in 1848, for the relief of the settled poor, including those Irish paupers who had lived in the borough long enough to obtain a settlement, was 37,8471.; the amount for unsettled English casual poor was 18,6391, and for unsettled Irish casual poor, 28,007/ I. was calculated that this expenditure of 28,0001 was equal to a rate of 10,1. in the pound on the whole rate able property in Manehrs'er; but if they took only that pertion of the property which paid the poor. rate, exclud ing the property, on which that rate was remitted, the rate for the support of Irish casual poor would be not less than from Is. 3d. to Is. 61. in the pound. —(Hear, hear.) Lest year, the cost of maintaining the Irish casual poor brought a burden of more than 2s. Id. per head upon the whole population of that great community; and it must be remembered that Manches ter was, at the time, suffering from great depression of trade, caused by the high price of cotton, the panic of 1847, and the political convulsions on the continent of Europe. To show the great increase of the amount re quired in Manchester for the relief of the Irish casual poor, he might state that in 1845 it was 3,400/.; in 1846, 3,2001.; in 1847, 6,5001.; and IS4B, 28,0071. Now, the people of Manchester had n o t ma d e c l amorous com plaints against this heavy charge; but they did wish Hon. Gentlemen opposite to see that they—in common with other large towns, by whom the same burden had to a greater or less extent been borne—had already paid their share of the rate in aid for Ireland over and over again; and they did think that, under these cir cumstances, it became the property of Ireland to find, for a temporary period, the comparatively small sum which the Government proposed to levy upon that country.—(Hear.) The lion. Member for Londonderry (Captain Bateson) had complained on Friday night of the tyrannical conduct of those who called upon the op pressed proprietors of Ulster to pay this rate; but be (Mr. Bright) found that the value of the rateable pro perty of Ulster was about 3,000,000/, and the sum that county would be called upon to contribute to the rate in aid would be about 82,000/. a year. For his own part, had he been an Ulster proprietor, he would not have raised his voice against this proposition, for the Ulster proprietors were only called upon to do what had been already done by others.—(Hear, hear.) It had been said that Mr. Tvvisleton had resigned his office of Poor law Commissioner rather than carry out this rate in aid. Now, the reason assigned by Mr. Twisletcn to the com mittee for his resignation was not that the system could not be worked, but that Ulster was Ulster—that it was tench more Ulster than Ireland —that Ulster did not wish to be put together with Munster, Connaught, and Leinster; but that it wished to be consi dered a portion of Great Britain rather than a portion of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that if, by this Bill, they succeeded in making Ulster really a portion of Ireland, a very happy result would be effected. The Members of that House, and her Majesty's Ministers had been charged with misgoverning Ireland, but he would remind lion. Gentlemen who made this charge that the course taken by Parliament with regard to Ire land for the last 100 years had been almost universally in accordance with the wishes of the landed proprietors of that country. The landed proprietors of Ireland, and especially of the north of Ireleni, had had great power in that House, and their advice had been too frequently acted upon by the Government. He considered that the political course taken by the people of Ulster had been most fatal to the interests of Ireland; they had bought Protestant ascendancy, and the price they had paid for it had been the degradation and ruin of their country.—(Hear.) He did not consider that it would be advisable to substitute an income-tax for the rate in aid. There were many Noble Lords and others residing in this country who already paid income-tax upon their Irish property, so that if the income-tax were applied to Ireland, no extra burden would be thrown upon such persons. In this case, as in others, whatever proposition was made was sure to be the plan that was disliked; and he had no doubt if the Government had proposed an in come-tax for Ireland it would have excited quite as much hostility as the rate in aid.--(Hear.) The conclu sion to which he (Mr. Bright) came was either that the malady of Ireland was incurable, or that there w ar , a lamentable lack of statesmanship in that House. Com prehensive schemes had been ridiculed, and deservedly in some respects, for they always came from the opposite (the Opposition) side of the table. The Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) when ho was in opposition, had suggested com prehensive schemes, and he ( Mr. Bright) had wished to see that Noble Lord in office that he might have an opportunity of proposing ithose schemes. He supposed, however, that the Noble Lord now found insuperable difficulties in the way of doing so. The Right Hon. Baronet op posite (Sir Robert Peel) hat proposed another scheme somewhat vaguely, but if the )Right Hon. Gentleman could put it in shape and work it out for the regenera tion of Ireland, he (Mr. Bright) believed the universal feeling of the House would be, that he should cross to the Ministerial side and try his hand. Ile (Mr. Bright) had great doubt whether the Nobl e L or d now at the heed o f t h e Government would object to change places w ith any Member of that House who would take in hand andfom really hear settle the I r i s h question.—(Hear, , Lord medics for John Russell and a laugh.) Th e re- Irelarl)l(rd hitherto b een !f orce and alms. They had had 50 000 ( le o med me n i n I re l and to keep the peace, whit© on other hand large votes of money had been poets had said— mad to ,keep th© people alive. O no o f our e e The civil power may snore ea se, And soldiers fight to keep at the p e ace. " " And he suspected that Governments had e" b e e e eh far too peace th ey much disposed to rely upon the could d main tain in Ireland by the means placed at the e t y r disposal by that House, instead of g ra pp l ing, u Tu s r u ag s courageous ly with the real dif fi culties of the question. ct d e i d d that the Noble Lord at the head of the Governmen t not con- template any policy of that kind, or he would have stated it to the House. He (Mr. Bright) considered it a gross delu s i on to suppose that they could regenerate Irel b y a poo r -l aw or b y a rate in aid. A poor-law added to pauperism, because it was constantly inviting to idleness; it dragged down those who paid rates, and demoralized those who received them. In order to apply a remedy to Ireland, they should know what was the matter with that country. lie might say, as a general proposition, that in Ireland nobody worked.—(A laugh.) Ho did nut mean that many persons might n )t be industriously fol lowing their occupations, but Vtere was a general—an almost universal—absence of labour; there was a want of emp'oyment and wages. He met some time since with an Irishman woraing as a navigator, and he asked him how it was that his countrymen did not work in their own country as they did in this? His re ply was, "Give us 2s. Bd. a day, and you'd see whether we would work."—(Hear, hear.) This was the great evil; there was in Ireland a lamentable want of employment, and consequently an extensive forced idleness. Ile might mention to the House a fact which had come under his observation, as showing the general poverty of Ireland, He found that the legacy duty paid upon personal pro perty in Great Britain in 1844 was upwards of 44,000,0001. The sum paid in Ireland in 1845 was only 2,140,0001. So that, although the population of Ireland was nearly half that of Great Britain, it paid only one-- twentieth the amount of legacy duty. Ile found, al,o, that although Ireland possessed a population three times greater than that of Scotland, the legacy duty paid by Ireland in 1844 was little more than two thirds the amount paid by Scotland. The re ports of the inspectors to which the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth had referred gave a lamentable picture ( f the condition of Ireland. That unfortunate country was in a state of ruin and disorganizetioa which it vres almost impossible to describe. Ireland possessed capitatto a considerable but still to a deficient extent ; but the land was held under circumstances which made it impossible that labour should be applied to it, and that productiveness should result. The raw material of the existence of the people was tied up. The legal en actments with regard to land made it a practical mono poly, which crushed not only the public, but also the landowners, for whose especial benefit that monopaly was supposed to exist.—(Hear, hear.) Why, he would ask, should land be tied up more than any other raw material ? They had a political system based on terri torial influences, and therefore the House feared to touch the question of land, because it was apprehensive of interfering with political considerations. He did not see why political considerations should intervene in dealing with questions connected with laud more than in dealing with questions connected with cotton, and he believed that nothing was more prejudicing England as well as Ireland than the absurd and monstrous system under which landed property in both countries was held. One difficulty in dealing with land was that arising out of defective titles, which was not easy to be got over so lone as the present system of entails was maintained. However, it was a difficulty which the House might overcome, and to which its early attention ought to be turned. He would next advert to the question of settlements. He was not about to say that settlements should be pre vented by law, and that a man should not be able to make special provision for various members of his family but there was in the system of strict settlement bound up under the system of entail that which was productive of immense evil to land and of discord and litigation in families. The practice brought about a constant acces sion of incunabrances of one kind or another, until the largest property, together with the family interests, be came bankrupt under a load from which they could not escape. Irish gentlemen were suffering also from ano ther cause. They had been peculiarly extravagant. It was said that they kept more horses and dogs than were usually kept by persons of the same means in England. Now, he had no objection to their spending money as they pleased, but if they did spend it they could not expect to have it too; and they could not expect that Parliament was always to step in and relieve them from difficulties.—(Hear, hear.) If the young gentlemen in Ireland, instead of remaining in the unen viable state of waiting for a commission, were to get rid of a little of the pride of family and of ancestry and ap ply themselves to business or some honest occupation, in which they would have an opportunity of raising them a. lees by their talents, it would be much Letter for the country, anti their positions would be less humiliating than at present. Another evil in Ireland arose out of the great number of persons having only a life interest in the property which they held. They could not sell the property, and they had no motive to improve the value of the land, as any expenditure for that purpose might only be remunerative after their interest had expired. Thus the raw material was bound up and labour left un employed; and the result was that widely prevailing poverty now complained of. As population and pauper ism inc a se I, the landlords, through the means of evict ments and ejeettnents endeavoured, as by a convulsive effort, to rid themselves of the evils by which they were surrounded; and hence arose a social war, and that inse• curity to life and property which had so extensively pre vailed. What was the remedy for this etato of things? The Noble Lord at the head of the Government pro posed *no plan, and neither had he ner any other Member of the Administration made any speech in the course of the session from which any en larged scheme of policy might be hoped fur in the pre sent session, or early next session. He thought the Noble Lord had not acted wisely in not paying more im mediate attention to the question as to what should be done in future for the population of Ireland. The Right Hon. Member for Tamworth had proposed a plan, which he some. time before hinted at, to the surprise of every body, and to the delight of not a few. On Friday last the Right Hon. Baronet explained his plan with some 'shat more distinctness, but he (.11r. Bright) doubted a bother it was in that state that it could be laid before the House in that detailed shape requisite previous to its adoption. He admired the end which the Right lion. Baronet sail he had in view, and sumac portion of the means by which he would carry it out, but he confessed with reluctance that it appeared to his mind at present in an impracticable form. Ile only trusted that Irish men would not suppose that everything was to be set right in their country by a commission, or they would be clinging more than ever to a remnant of property in b enlirupt estates, and fuel k r,ater hesitation to take steps in the direction in which the Right Him. Baronet wished them to proceed. The Right Hon. Baronet said he did not desire the transfer of property to take place by individual barter, or that the matter should proceed in its natural course, by which land should bee me unnaturally cheap. Now, he should like to know wh e th er a man wou ld go to Ireland to buy land unless the cheapness compensated for all the other disadvantages to be met with there? There could be no redemption fur Ireland by a transfer of land unless by land taking its natural course, and becoming so cheap that capitalists in England, Scotland, and Ireland would seize is with all its disadvantages.—(lronical cries of " Hear.") By seizing it he meant that they would seize with avidity in that case, as in others, a favour able opportunity of investing their capital. He believed that much Irish capital would go to the south and west of Ireland to be invested in land if the measures which were proposed, and the ends which the Right lion. Baronet had in view, were facilitated by that House.— The Hon. Member here alluded to the distressed state of Stockport in 1842, observing that property in that place was then depreciated to a lam e nt a bl e extent, an d t h at many thou san d s of persons left the town. About half the manufacturers failed, and property changed hands, pass ing into the possession of persons of inure substantial means. This transfer of property was no doubt a painful process, but it must be submitted to under such circum stances; and he thought that in the present state of Ire land it was the duty of the House not to interfere with the ordinary and natural course of things. What he wanted was, that Parliament should remove every ob. stacle to the free sale of land ; and therein lay the only security to be had for the restoration to prosperity of the present distressed districts in Ireland. The question of a Parliamentary title was most important, hut he had been informed by a legal authority that the difficulty therein arose from entails to persons beyond those now living. Another matter requiring alteration related to intestate estates. He dist nut want a change of the law of primogeniture, so that there should be a subdivision of property here, as in France. If a man chose to act ab surdly, and leave all his property to one child out of many, he would not interfere to prevent him by law ; but, where a man died without tnalsng a will, it was the duty of Parliament to enact that the property left should be divided equally among the heirs.—(llear.) If the system of leaving the property to the eldest son were followed out among the middle classes, and in regard to personal property, it would lead to speedy confusion.—(Hear.) Although the alteration of the law which ho (Mr. Bright) desired to see would not in itself destroy the practice, Parliament would cease to give its sanction to it, and gradually the owners of property would form a more just appreciation of their duty as testators.— (Hear, hear.) With regard to the owners of life in terests, they ought to have power to grant leases, not at low rents in consideration of great fines, bat upon such terms as would not defraud their successors; and they should be allowed to charge the estate with sums ex pended in really beneficial improvements.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to a registry of deeds, we had the Ordnance survey already, and it had been estimated that the ne cessary survey for a perfect registry would cost but about 9(1. an acre, and to engrave the plans could be no great addition to that cost; while, besides the advantage to thye isr)itarb.lisce,niitorwa_s considered, and had been so stated add to the .glue luhoeofbelieved, landthat a registry would or nine year,' might be reducnirc the by as much as eight ff h oo a r se. som T e he ye s a t r a s m , p au d d uti i e n s, too, faut cleisliitnytog:lvaeol:e that ,e,evnertyhafna letting land got from insol vent use it profitably. Then as to the waste lands of Ireland,divide Government might take them at a valuation and di them into various t es e moderate p ar t estates, which would tempt purchaseertshf;r c e i e a u tr r i ef o of the United Kingdona.—(Hear, hear. to be the only means of attracting capital teoeaErpre) How could the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) do that by fixing a maximum rate? Why, there was a time when there was no rate, and that did not attract capital,—(Eiear, hear.) The Right lion. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) spoke about emigration. llis remarks ou vo luntary emigration seemed rather unwise; things that were done voluntarily were not always done well, neither were things that were done by the Government.—(Hear, hear.) But what was the relation of population to the land of Ireland? In the reports on the table it was stated with regird to Clifden, that the resources of the union, if made available, would be amply sufficient for the support of its population.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Ha milton said the same of Donegal and Glenties, if culti vated according to the average of English counties; and Mr. Twisleton considered that the land of Ireland would maintain twice its present population.—(Hear, hear.) It cost a good deal to send a family to Australia or Canada; why not employ the money at home?—(Bear, hear.) Let it not be said that he (Mr. Bright) was proposing schemes which would be a great interference with the rights of property. There could not be a greater inter ference with the true rights of property than the laws now regulating real estate; and in the districts to which the Right lion. Baronet referred the property in labour of 4,000,000 of people was almost totally destroyed. But let the landlords of Ireland say whether the state in which they had been living was not worse than anything he proposed?—(blear, beer.) Nor let it be said that he weall injure aristocratical and territorial influence. What were these worth now?—(Hear, hear.) What was Ireland itself worth ?—(llestr, hear.) Was it not to the whole world the symbol and token of our dis grace—( hear, hear) —and to an overtaxed people the source of amazing expense?—(Hear, hear.) Or was it said that we should weaken the union? Why, there had been no honest attempt yet to make a union with Ire land; we had had a union with Ulster, but never with the whole of Ireland.—(blear, hear.) Surely, if ever there was a great opportunity for a statesman, it was the pre sent.—(Loud cheers.) This was undoubtedly " the hour " and we wanted " the man."—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord at the head of the Government had done many things for his country, and had shown upon some occasions as much courage as in the state of public opinion it was necessary for a statesman to show ; but on this Irish question he seemed to shrink from fairly meeting the difficulty.--(Hear, hear.) Yet the charac ter of his Government was at stake; he could not in his po-ition—be he as well intentioned as he might—defend himself to hi t country, to the world, to posterity, if he remain.d tit the head of this Inperial Le gislature and still was unable or un killing to bring forward measures for the recovery of Ireland.—(llear, hear.) The Noble Lord at the head of the Administration of affairs in Ireland, too, must re collect, that it was not the highest effort of statesman ship to keep the peace in a country where very few men were anxious to go to war, and when he had 50,000 armed men, and the whole power of this kiugd me to back him—(llcar, hear)—if that distinguished nobleman intereled to be known as a statesman with regard to his rule in Ireland, he must be prepared with measures of a much more practical and directly operative character tean any lie had yet initiated.—(Hear, hear.) Let that great subscription be remembered which was raised three years ago for Ireland, when there came funds from the uttermost parts of the earth—from the Pope and the Grand Signior, from Red Indians in North America, and from slaves in C trolina; what could we say to all those contributors, who must be anxious to know whe ther anything had been done to prevent the recurrence of such a calamity?—(Hear.) We must acknowledge to them that our boasted constitution utterly failed to grapple with this question. Talk not of our country hav ing had peace while so many thrones in Europe had been overturned; tell up all the lives lost by the convulsions of the part year in Europe, the cessation of trade, the ruin of industry, the breaking of hopes and of hearts, and it could not be compared for an instant with the agonies that had been endured by our own population under our " glorious constitution."—(Hear, hear.) Let us beware of laying the calamity at the door of " Pro vidence." The promises of God were not withdrawn; there was still sunshine and shower, seed time and har vest; the affluent bosom of the earth yet offered suste nance for man. But man must do his part.—(Hear.) We must do ours.—(Hear, hear.) We must abandon the errors and the crimes of our past legislation. We must free the land—(Hear ' hear)—and we should find that it was upon industry, hopeful and remunerative, free and inviolate, that we must build, as on a sure foundation, a permanent edifice of union and peace.— (Much cheering.) The Marquis of GRANBY concurred in much of what had been advanced in the very able speech to which the House had just been listening. (Hear, hear.) The Government had neither come forward with a great and comprehensive scheme upon their own responsi bility, nor waited for the report of the committee, but had proposed a temporary palliative, whose effects, how ver it might be feared, would be lasting.—(Hear.) The cases of England and Ireland were not at all simi lar, as had been alleged. If the rate in-aid were levied in England it would be raised on all property; but such was not the case in Ireland. Another case was, that in England the arrears of poor-rate were merely leviable upon a tenant for the time of his occupancy, whereas in Ireland the tenant was liable for all the arrears of rate, no matter for how long a time they had accumulated. Ho would now say ono word on that most im portant point, the valuation on which it was proposed to charge this rate. Suppose a farm was valued at 100/. and let for the same sum, the amount charged would be 5/., of which the landlord would pay one half and the tenant the other. So far the arrangement was perfectly fair. But suppose that, instead of 1001., the farm was valued at 50/., his rent remaining the same; there would still be 51. payable for the poor rate, or 2s. in the pound. The farmer would deduct Is a pound from his rent of 100/„ ane thus the landlord would have to pay the whole instead of one-half of the poor -rate. Reverse the process, and then the farmer would be the sufferer. The present valuation was most unequal; and Mr. Griffiths had stated that a true . valuation would not be made out till the end of 1851, the very period when the rate in aid was to cease.— (Hear, hear.) He regretted that government intended to make no effectual improvement in the Irish poor law, and that they would not consent to the only change that would make the rate in aid pelateable— vie , a diminution of the area of taxation. The Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) imagined that such a diminution would increase the number of evictions; bat it had been clearly shown that it would rather lessen the number of evictions. Equally erroneous was the idea that it would tend to reduce the people to a state of serfdom. Ho had, however, no hesitation in saying, that call him by what name they pleased, the man who was employed at labour in the open air was an infl nite!y superior and more elevated and enlightened being than the man who was shut up within the tour walls of a workhouse. He was surprised at the tone and manner in all:eh the Right lion. Baronet the Member for Tam. worth ief. rred to the law of 1846. It was a strange boast to make that in consequence of that law the Go sere meet had been enabled to keep body and soul toge ther of 100,000 people. If they had passed the measure proposed by his late lamented friend (Lord G. Bentinck) for encouraging railways, they would nut have had to keep body and soul together of 100,000 starving wretches. On the very day the Right lion. Baronet made his speech a letter was written from Dublin containing a most deplorable account of the progress of destitution throughout certain portions of Connaught. (The Noble Lord then read a letter of a Dublin correspondent, inn which a gentleman named Hilles, writing from New port, stated, en the authority of a person offinially con nected with the district, that fully 1,000 lives must be lost by starvation within the coming month.) The only advantage, as it appeared to him, which had been derived from the repeal of the Bill of 1846 was the importation of Indian meal free of duty; but would it not have been a wiser course for the Government, when the crisis ar rived, to have abolished the 103. duty on Indian meal, and have maintained the duty on every other descrip tion of grain? He agreed that it was essentially neces sary that a cereal crop should be substituted for the cul tivation of the potato, but that could only be done by converting small cottiers - into farm labourers. But how could they expect those labourers to be employed unless remunerating prices were secured to the cultivator? The Noble Lord concluded by saying, that he could not support the }shin of her Majesty's Government, as he considered it both impolitic and unjust, and that if it were pissed into a law it would reduce the whole people of Ireland to one universal level of misery and degradation. Mr. C. FORTESCUE felt it his duty to vote against the measure of her Majesty's Government. He ad mitted that Ireland ought at this juncture to make very extraordinary cif ats, but he wished those effarts to be made by means of another species of tax. He was de sirous to see en income-tax imposed upon Ireland for HAI purposes, and bearing upon every description of Irish property. This rate in aid was partial, and there fore unjust, as it would fall o t one class of persons only. Some Hoe. Gentlemen, however, in opposing this mea sure, had taken up a principle for the occasion which they might hereafter find to be very inconvenient. They had argued that there should be an entire fusion and assimilation of Ireland with England. This was a principle against which he must protest. He could not help thinking that they ought to rid themselves of a poor law and a poor-rate altogether. He looked upon this as a great national emergency, in which the possessors of all kinds of property ought to be called upon to exert them selves. Suppose a foreign enemy were threatening Ireland at this moment the House would not think of calling upon the possessors of one kind of property alone to supply the funds necessary to meet that emergency. They would adopt an income-tax.—(Hear, hear.) But it was said that if the Government had proposed an in come-tax in place of a rate in aid, it would have met with as bad a reception as the present proposal. He did not agree in that. He did not mean to say it would have been received with acclamation either in Ireland or in that House ; but he thought it would been felt to have much more fairness about it than the proposal of a rate in aid.—(Hear, hear.) It had also been said that a rate in aid would be much easier collected than an income tax, inasmuch as no new machinery would need to be created. But as they were told that sooner or later they would be saddled with an income-tax, he did not see why they should not have anticipated that necessity, and Lave imposed it now. With respect to the rate in aid being more easily collected, ho imagined that if the Go vernment had introduced the measure under that belief they must, by this time, have found out their mistake.— (Hear, hear.) For those reasons ho would give his vote against the proposition of the Government. When the Hon. Gentleman resumed his seat some amusement was created by the fact of about a score of Members rising simultaneously with the view of fol lowing him in the debate. The Speaker, however, called upon Mr. DISRAELI, who said that the Hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Bright), in a speech which—although he agreed as little with the Hon. Gentleman as probably any Member in that House—he had listened to with the greatest p'easure and gratification, as he must do to every demonstration of intellect which sustained the d the b s t e e s s u i p o o n t of th P e a s r u l b i j a e m e e t n o t r ftohret ahffi s a r y s e o a rf Ireland. reputatio n o f t h at assem bl y — (Cheers)—had described s el a a n nd a . djo l u t r w ne a d s his (11 r . Di sraeli ' s) wish, before the House adjourned, to succeed, if poss i k , le, in terminating that debate, and bringing their deliberations to some practical conclu sion. During the various discussions to which the lion. Gentleman ref erre d , and in which he (Mr Disraeli) and the friends with w h om he had the pleasure to co-operate had been oblivel perhaps too frequently to interfere, they had on every occasion, when they had been forced to criticise the propositions of Government, told them they were ready to agree to any arrangement that was necessary from the circumstances in which they were called upon to vote; but what they demanded as a principle, indeed a primary condition was, that the Go vernment should come forward and give some assurance to the Home and the country that their temporary pro posals were not to be continued for ever.—(Bear.) How was that movement received by the Government and by individuals very justly influential in that House? The Government persisted for a long time in the course with which they originated the session. They persisted that it was not only ncecssary.but politic to come down to the House of Commons and make a propo:dtion for a THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 3, 1810. grant of public money which, even upon their own showing, could only meet the exigencies of the occasion for a very brief period.—(llea*, hear.) When there fell from the lips of a Right !lon. Gentleman eminent in the country and justly influential in that House, that such a proposition should be accompanied by a comprehensive measure, such was the reception which the intimation received from Government that even the Right Hon. Gentleman himself—the Member for Ripon (Sir James Graham)—eeemed afterwards to recoil from the too hazardous use of the felicitous epithet. When catching from the lips of that great master, he (sir. Disraeli) said he could not assent tei the proposition of Govern ment for a grant of 50,0001. unless it were aecseepanied by a comprehensive measure with respect to those causes of disturbance and misgovernment which were evi dent to all and recognised by many, the Right Honourable Gentleman the Member for Tam worth (Sir Robert Peel) rose in the House, and threw out a sneer against comprehensive measures. That Right Hon. Gentleman brought to the discussion all the influence of his great ability and grog expe rience, and he warned the House that it was easy t) talk of comprehensive measures, but he knew how little was to be expected from such colossal suggestions. The Go vernment were not only firm, they were obstinate. They were prepared to carry their proposition and to renew it, if necessary, every fortnight. But what had been the result of those expressions of opinion? The Government had come forward with a proposition which affected to be compreheraive, and the fate of which they were call, d upon to decide that night—when, as if to dwarf their and proposal,how ineffectual a ndtoshoz ,o h ul o d w be m i e t a s n r t was su7n the ready the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth, came forward conception, critie and capped their climax , with a suggestion o f h is own, so vast and multitudin , us that it had in troduced a new element into the debate of a most i interesting and important character, and which at least, by its introduction, had justified the right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Ripon in the use, std he (Mr. Disraeli) and his friends in the adoption, of the epithet to which he had referred.—(Hear, hear.) With reference to the proposition of a rate in aid, the point for the House to consider was whether that was an adequate proposition. It would appear, if he recollected right, from the papers on the table, that the e xpenditure -of what was popularly called the distressed unions, for the maintenance of the poor during one year, was not less than 540,0001., leaving a debt of upwards of 120,0001. in addition. It was proposed in the present Bill to raise, by means of a rate in aid, throughout all Ireland a sum which, he understood, was calculated to amount to 320,0004 Now to him it appeared that that proposition was essentially inadequate.—(Hear, hear.) If it pro duced any effect the proposition must be more than it expressed.—(Hear, hear.) Here were the distressed unions—he took, of course, only the twenty-one unions which had been referred to—he did not refer to the unions over which was impending a doom as terrible ; but here were twenty-one distressed unions which had expended in one year at least 240,000/. more than they had obtained from the rates which had been struck, and which had besides increased their debt considerably above 100,000/. Well, generally speaking, the fruit of a rate in aid would hardly be able to supply the deficiency incurred in those distressed unions when the state of Ireland was probably not so severe as at the present moment. It appeared, then, on a general glance, that this proposition of Government, if it meant nothing more than a 6d. rate in aid over the whole of Ireland, was an inadequate proposition.— (Hear, hear.) But there might be other objections to the proposition besides being inadequate. It might be an impolitic proposition, and he thought it was so.— (Hear, hear.) He thought that a measure which had been introduced to renovate the land of a country which suffered from a deficiency of capital, and which com menced by forcibly reducing that capital—(Hear, hear) —could scarcely be called a wise measure—that a measure which in a country where all acknowledged there ought to be a stimulus given to self-exertion, reduced the excitement to self exertion, could scarcely be called a discreet measure (Hear, hear)—that a measure which without encountering the difficulties which they themselves felt, or dealing with the remedies which others suggested, sought, or if it did not seek, tended to aggravate the burdens on property, could scarcely be described as a measure conceived in a states manlike spirit—that a measure which declared that Ire land was to be considered in a different spirit from any other part of the United Kingdom—he said that a mea sure of that kind could hardly be described in the present day as being characterised by profound saga city.—(Hear, hear.) Ho agreed with this Honourable Gentleman who had just addressed the House with so much ability, that there was a difference between Eng land and Ireland. But they must never recognise it as an imperial difficulty. A county in Ireland might differ in condition from a county in England ; who doubted it ? All they could do was, by constitutional laws, to lay down great general principles, which all must recog nise, to which all must adhere, and by which all must la influenced. But in different portions of an an cient empire great diversity of circumstance must occur. The tenure of land was different, as between Mid dlesex and Kent. Did the existence of gavelkind afford any reason why a different general policy should be ap plied to Middlesex than was applied to Kent? And so with respect to Ireland. Thole might be difference be tween the two countries; there might to geographical differences; there might be difference from geographical association. But if they mulcted the man of Kent in a tax to which the man of Middlesex was not liable, what sort of answer would it lee to his remonstrance were they to remind him that his tenure was different—that he bore on his banner the white horse of Hengist, that the associations of their history were different, and that the system of their taxa•ien could not be the same?— (Hear, hear.) The proposition before the House was a prop esition which, historically, was inadequate; which, politically, was in liscreet. And if it were inadequate and impolitic, w hat he most objected to was, that it was illusory.—(Hear, hear.) It was essentially a deceptive proposition; it was a national rate to which the %%hole nation could not contribute--(Hear, hear.) How cauld they go to that desolate Connaught which could not raise its rates—(blear, hear)—which could not raise these local contributions, and call on it to pay a national one? It was net a national rate, because a great portion of the nation would not contribute to it, and es pecially that portion which was to be benefited.—(Hear, hear.) He knew there were gentlemen, and gentlemen representing English constituencies, who were little in cline] to take the view he had been led on reflection to take. They thought there was a local interest at stake; that, after all, this was an Irish squabble with respect to the measure and amount which Ireland should be forced to contribute to the general necessities of the empire. They make a mistake.—(Hear, hear.) He was totally against considering the question in so limited a light. If, as he thought, there was a shortsighted, and not a magnificent feeling, on the part of the mere English mem bers, that Ireland should be made to contribute what after all could not be a very considerable amount with reference to the exigency that existed, in what position did they, by adopting a Government measure, place themselves with the country and their constituencies, regarding it merely from an English point of view? It was called a vote of 100,000/., on the security of a law which might never be put in execution. — (Hear, hear.) 100,0004 were to come from the English Exchequer; what compensation they were to receive for it was a problem yet to be solved. But he would not dwell on the points. He wanted to show the Members representing English constituencies that the proposition of the Government was not only inadequate, impolitic, and illusory, but also unjust,—(llear, hear)—and that if they assisted in the accomplishment of the injustice it would perpetrate, they would in fact be warring against their own interests and taking a course which hereafter they might have cause bitterly to repent.—(Hear, hear.) Some short time back he had called the attention of the House to the burdens on land in England. Whatever merit any proposition he made might have, the accuracy of the facts could not be disputed. None could deny that from the coarse and uncivilised system of taxation which had always seized on landed property taxes to a remark able degree bad been laid on the real property of Eng land. What were they going to do now? At a moment of unprecedented difficulty and unparalleled trial, when every man felt himself called on to make remarkable sacrifices, what what was the gist of this statesmanlike proposition? That the property which had already borne the brunt should incur fresh sacrifices. Was it to gratify some petty piq'se that English Members sup ported suoli a proposition? Was it for their interest or for the interest of the country that they should sanction by their votes to-night so dangerous a system, and so perilous a precedent?--(Hear, hear.) Ought they not rather to declare in language which could not be mis taken that the system of peculiar burdens on the agri cultural interest, either in England or Ireland, was no longer to be tolerated?—(Elear, hear.) Those were briefly the reasons why he opposed the Bill on the table. The Hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Bright) had reminded the House that the Right Hon. Member for Tam worth (Sir R. Peel) had taken that opportunity, not merely of expressing his opinion of the proposition of Government, but of expressing opinions of his own on the general policy which ought to be pursued with respect to Ireland. Considering only the great reputa tion and position of that Right Honorable Gentleman, he (Mr. Disraeli) would receive with the greatest deference any communication the Right Hon. Gentleman might make to the House on so interesting a subject. But considering the position of the United Kingdom, and the perilous state of Ireland, considering that the Mouse of Commons, after sitting two months, was about to ad journ for no inconsiderable period, without having de cided a single point, or carried a single measure except the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act—(Cheers)—he thought it would be a mockery to argue the proposi• tion before the House without reference to the opinions expressed by so considerable an authority in so ample and frank a manner. Whatever might be the general opinion with respect to that exposition of a distinguished statesman, it must be conceded that after that expres sion of opinion, it was impossible that anything more should bo heard in that Reuse of the laisserfaire system. —Clear, hear.) He (Mr. Disraeli) remembered some two years fago, when one whose loss he al Nays lamented, but never more than when the con dition of Ireland was brought under the consideration of the House—(Elear)—that having risen hastily to support that measure, which the fu'ure proved to be so saga cious and statesmanlike on the part of Lord G. 13entincle —he had said that in dealing with Ireland commercial principles were not sufficient—(llcar, hear)—that there were circumstances in Ireland of a political nature with hich political principles could alone cope; and that, in stimulating private enterprise, they might• in that country call, and rightly call, on the State to interfere. Com mercial principles were insufficient, since the circum stances to be dealt with were not merely commercial.— (Hear, hear.) He had received a reply that night from one who, with a very weak case, was a very powerful op ponent, and who exercised great influence in that House. The principle he had laid down to vindicate his advocacy of State assistance to commercial enterprise in Ireland was opposed by tho Right Hon. Member for Tamworth, who repudiAted the doctrine with respect to the political and commercial aspscts of the question, and who advo ca'ed those principles of extreme political economy which he (Mr. Disraeli) did not think then, and less thought now, could apply to the circumstances of Ireland. He listened to the Right Honourable Baronet when demolishing the argument, with the admiration due to a master, and could not even attempt a reply. But time revenged truth; and the answer to the Righ t Hon. Gentleman's speech was the proposition which on two occasions the same Right Hon. Gentleman had de veloped.—(Hear.) When they considered that the state of Ireland was one which had baffled all statesmen— when they refiscted on the position of any Government called on to cope with a case t.f such aggravated diffi culty, great was the responsibility of that man who Came forward in a position so eminent as that of the Right Hon. Gentleman, and volunteered his opinions. It was on his part, no doubt, a high act of duty. Those suggestions ought to be received with great respect, but, at the same time, weighed with careful scrutiny. If they mere founded on deep thought, fine observation, and matured experience, none more readily than h e (Mr. Disraeli) could acknowledge those qualities, or support the policy which might bring those suggestions into action. Those sugges tions were numerous; they were not all novel. I'w/ill ties for the transfer of land, plans to encourage emi gration, propositions to permit the investment of public meneys in public works, were measures of great interest and importance, but they had been heard of before. The characteristic feature of the Right Hon. Gentle luau's revelations was, that, somehow or other, the state or the society of England was to appropriate to itself those vast regions which were now the scene of so much miegoverntreet and misery in Ireland, and that, by happier management and more successful cul tivation, results quite opposite to those now realised would be attained, and the regeneration of Ireland would, iu fact, be occasioned by a change in the tenure of land under the happier auspices of the English Go vernment. A more elaborate exposition had been given by the Right Hon. Baronet besides the preliminary in timation atfsrded some weeks ago—not inferior in ability—not as the Odyssey to tho Iliad, the setting to the rising sun, but still as radiant and fervent as his earliest effort. Combining those two expositions, he (Mr. Disraeli) could only conclude that the Right Honourable Gentleman anticipated at the bottom of his mind a considerable home colonization in Connaught. Ho referred to the time of James 1., and quoted the economical opinions of the wisest of Englishmen. But had the Right Hon. Gentleman considered the consequences of his proposition ? So far as he (Mr. Disraeli) could follow the Right Hon. Gen tleman, whom indeed he always followed with great at tention, thoro roomed one great pervading fallacy. The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to assume that lands were lying waste in consequence of the operation of the poor-law, and that they were depopulated. They might be desolate, but they needmot be depopulated. So far aehe (Mr. Disraeli) could obtain information, they were not so. There was a population on the waste lands who were quite sensible of the rights of possession and ready to maintain an adverse claim even though the title put forth be a Parliamentary one. In what position did that circumstance place the Right Hon. Gentleman and similar projectors ? But, said the Right Hon. Gentle man, " remember the plantations of Ulster." They were conceived by great statesmen, and they achieved great results. Ulster had, in trying times, maintained the connexion between the two countries. Why should they not be as successful in carrying out plantations under Victoria as they had been under King James? When the the prime causes of the success which had attended the Ulster plantation were examined, one could scarcely be induced to believe that the Right Hon. Gentleman was the statesman who advocated such ' a principle. The plantation of Ulster, notwithstanding a thousand difficulties, was successful from the inspiring force of a community of religious sentiment. Now, the Right Hon. Gentleman was not, he imagined, the states man to look forward to a community of religious feel ing to be the basis of his new plantation.—(Hear, hear.) Yes; but what the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed was to place there substantial farmers, men of great capital and considerable scientific acquirement. Now, he did not wish to hurt the feelings of any one, but it was pro bable that the great majority of those persons would be Protestants, living in the midst of a Roman Catholic population, who would not only regard them as intru ders, but as men having an inferior title to themselves. He saw all the difficulty of plantations on the Protestant principle, such as took place 200 years ago. Were they to reproduce that source of so many calaniiies? Ile hardly believed that the House of Commons would au thorise that principle.—(" Oh I oh !") " Oh 1 oh !" but they must deal with the circumstances before them, and if they called upon England to undertake an expe riment of such vast proportions, without considering all these circumstances, they would not be acting like states. men. He spoke entirely independent of the reli gious feeling—which he (Mr. Disraeli) would be as little ready as any man * to evoke, and which he was sure the Right Honourable Gentleman would be the last man in the House to evoke when he said that a colony or plantation taking place in a country where the population had an adverse possession offered a prospect of the most calamitous kind.—(Hear, hear.) Would they plant these men in Connaught with out taking care that they were protected? But, if they were to be protected, how was it to be done? Why, by force, by arming themselves, and by the development of the military principle which always took place in these plantations. lie did not believe that any attempt at home colonization of this kind, even if they proceeded in the mitigated forms and with the modified courses of the 19th century, could end in anything except in calamities which the imagination could not conceive, and which they would all hereafter deplore uud wish to avoid. But the Right Hon. Gentleman would not carry his plan into effect as far as a forced plantation or colony, but he would have a high commission to manage these lands. Now there was one deficiency in the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman, who prop seed that his commission should be a local one, and that it should be on the spot. But he seemed to omit from his consider ation that these distressed districts did not lie alto gether. If the Right Hon Gentleman looked at the map of Ireland, and traced that extensive western coast from the Bay of Don. gal to Bantry Bay, he would find that some of this district commenced at the upper part of Donegal and ended at Kerry, and that there intervened the counties of Clare and Limerick. He should wish to know where the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed to place this local commission, which was to be on the spot, and to supersede not only the metropolitan authority, but also the authority of the Viceroy. But, suppose this high commission established, say at Limerick, what was it to do? The Right Hon. Gen tleman, vague and shadowy as he was, and which became the colossal proportions of such projects, did descend a little into detail, and referred to those mea sures which the [louse had passed for the mitigation of the sufferings of Ireland. What were those measures? The Right Honourable Gentleman particularly dwelt upon the funds voted to promote drainage in Ire land, which funds were now under the manage ment of the Commissioners of Public Works. (Hear, hear.) Now, he would take that instance. Was there any Gentleman imagined that those funds could be better managed by a commission such as the Right Hon. Gentleman had recommended? If there were, he should like to know the grounds of such an opinion. He was reading the report of the Commis sioners of Public Works that morning, and he was cer tainly of opinion that if those Commissioners erred, which ho was far from suggesting was the case, it was on the side of too much scrupulosity; but better ma nagement and greater discretion in the application of o public funds he did not believe were anywhere to 1a found. suppose w D o i n d ld th a e hn H w ou m se or He might pursue this train of analysis with respect to the application of poor-rate hstcersertb: discretion, better r than was done a t that the Lord High Commissioners could manage the Tnlmyddhi eebae,and funds WorkW ork s raised ( r b i Works?—(Cries ot the e e, lion. Baronet had given credit to the latter nlm b int e present b h y i set t ehrsseu. these g p u pl a ov guardians suppose a i f a utt n hn s wad a tse n rhw d ei vice-guardians. i ht c h e eg - gruHe commission a a i r tge d hr i an acw s b . oi thann couldt h e not Commissionerstbringha that tmh heoisrmeehsevi:ghoi to oa Commis sionersnbl c e e e el ' i b e o v i e r e t m h o e r p e ub e l c ic on fu om nd y s. htrad d m id in the railways, Righte Commissioners to do if Gov, rnment advanced 1,500,0001. to Irish railways ? Who would administer that ? Why, the directors of the railway. As far as the plantation scheme of the Right Honourable Gen tleman was concerned he thought it impossible—as far as the application of the present funds, and the mainte nance of the present arrangements connected therewith in Ireland were concerned, he thought it would be nugatory. Under the best circumstances, the High Commissioners would not be able to act more for the public advantage than the functionaries that now existed. But the third and more im portant feature of the Right Honourable Gentleman's plan was that of giving a Parliamentary title—(Hear, hear)—and before Hon. Members were fascinated by the large and eloquent views of an experienced statesman, they should pause and consider whether the measure proposed were a matured measure, or a crude and ill advised one. He (Mr. Disraeli) had heard in his time many causes given for the miseries and misgovernment of Ireland, and there had been nothing more interesting than the variety of changes on that subject. At the earlier part of his public career it was supposed that Ireland bad been miserable and misgoverned on account of the difference of religion between the two countries. Then it was found that the cause was not religious, but political, and that Ireland had not a sufficient number of Members of Parliament. Well, Ireland had an increased number of Members of Parliament; but she remained equally miserable and misgoverned as ever.—(A laugh.) Then it was discovered that the cause was not religious or political, but municipal. Ireland, it was dis covered, had no Roman Catholic aldermen. Well, she at last had Roman Catholic aldermen. They bad seen in that House the Lord Mayor or Dublin, with his gold chain, and they bad now a Lord Mayor from that city without one. But the misery and misgovernment remained, and at last it was discovered that the cause was neither religious, political, nor muni cipal, but material, and was to be found in the tenure of lands. That opinion prevailed some time, when the cause was suddenly discovered to be socia'. To the Right Hon. Gentleman was now due the credit of pro claiming that the real cause that Ireland was miserable op a ie n pa d arle rn , s t g ahr e a s e v tr e ia r al n il, e t d nhci w sr a st s intr i_i i e ee i i t h. h eb e ra r tA r ti e hu l ia i e g ts i ti o ; u s s w , : p as o ilnme l d i g t aiocalfa. It ohnipi.id; d had been in Chancery.—(" Hear, hear," knew ‘liL t h h e a t sv when ame less splendid, and his vents, that his banquets bec upposed that the same result raiment more scanty, he s suit he thought dispen e s n ed at w gh i ea t produced upon the nation at large when it got might be The Right Hon. Gentleman had acted into Chancery. gentleman l o e a o m m a t e n u ffi g o o e f t e h n i t o involved c o a a u r s r e i i g a s: s C d a h a n a s d n t e s h e e e i considera ble nto w hff i ee t en h rHi,oad6ryuhsitei t himself htlol owo decision, noutu9l dtah, giveeg lie Go had, atohbr etdsri these properties n i tp n 9rkro l e f sdb slanguagertniald4- talked of the general registry on the continent, the effect of which, it had been stated, had added several years' purchase to the value of the lands. Th e Right Hon. Gentleman proposed to take the lands of Connaught and sell them under a Parliamentary title, which he (Mr. Disraeli) maintained would have the same effect as a system of general registry. The Right Hon. Gentleman would sell them first of all to pay the state fir the sums advanced, or to defray the rates for which they were indebted, and, after paying those charges, he would hand over the proceeds to the proprietor. That property would be sold under great advantages, but what would he do to the property in Munster or Ulster? Did he mean to say that the solvent and provident pro prietor should bring his property into the market at a disadvantage compared with the insolvent and im provident proprietor, who had not discharged his duty either to himself, to society, or to his country.—(Elear, hear.) Was an estate in Con naught, on account of the !aches of the proprietor, to be sold under these advantages, and was the Ulster proprietor to be told—" Your title is reasonably good, but there is a ruined and dissolute fellow in Con naught, a he has a Parliamentary title, and your marl, t is destroyed?"—(Hear, hear.) He opposed the planta tion scheme of the Right Hon. Gentleman, as he had stated, because it was impossible; his interference with the local funds, because it would he nugatory; and his Parliamentary title, because he held it to he unjust.— (Hear, hear.) He agreed with the Right Hoe. Gentle. men in thinking it expedient to reduce the area of tax ation, which his (Mr. ,Disraeli's) friends hod f;ir seine time been urging upon the attention of the Reuse. The Right Hon. Baronet had alluded to the influence which the repeal of the cern-laws had exercised on the cireutu stiences of Ireland. He was not anxious to intrAuce this subject, and thus to revive those perhaps too bitter disputes which he feared would again too quickly and too fiercely come under their consideration.—(Elear, hear.) But he felt bound to notice the observations of the Right Honourable Gentleman if he intro duced the subject. He bad asked, what would be the state of Ireland if, with the potato famine in that country, Indian meal were still subject to a duty of 10s? The Right lion. Gentleman always assumed that Indian meal could never have been introduced into Ire land except at a duty of 10s., in which he differed from the Right Hon. Gentleman. If he were forced by these allusions to refer to the repeal of the corn-laws with re ference to the condition of Ireland, he felt persuaded that when the future historian of our time —one, perhaps, as well acquainted with the circumstances, and as highly accomplished, as that brilliant writer whose absence he as deeply deplored as any man in that House—if he had to recount the past, and to tell the world that almost at the same time a statesman of this country introduced the vast experiment of a pcor-law in Ireland, arid, at the same time, not only disturbed, but destroyed, the assured and only markets which that country had, whatever might have been that historian's economic theory, how ever completely he might be bound to those dogmas which he (Mr. Disraeli) believed might be so generally true and so partially false, of this he felt pursuaded, that such an historian would say that the statesman who at the same time introduced that vast experiment upon a country which he also deprived of her markets, was embarking, not only in the most dan gerous, but also the most ruinous experiment, which any Minister had ever dared to venture upon.—(Cheers ) The question which had thus been brought under the notice of the House was one quite independent of any abstract truth, and completely apart from any of the theories of which they had heard so much. To enforce the joint operations of two such measures as a poor-law in Ireland and the repeal of the corn-laws was a political blunder as great as any that had ever been committed. It was quite true that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth might say that he was in no respect answerable for the poor-law, that it had not been inflicted upon Ireland by him. But whether or not he was responsible for the poor-law in Ireland, he should have remembered that that: poor-law had been passed before he proposed to Parliament a re peal of the corn-laws; and the House should remember that there proceeded from that succession of mea sures a combination such as the human intellect had never previously encountered, and many years might not pass away before it produced a state of society in Ireland calculated to shake the institutions of the empire to their foundations.—(Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had with considerable effect shown how the imperial duties of this country had been fulfilled, and upon that occasion he read to the House a certain letter written by a Lancashire man, warning the House at the same time not to laugh. In his opinion that caution was perfectly necessary, for there was nothing whatever in the letter to provoke laughter. It was a plain, straightforward statement of details given with unaffected simplicity. It was calculated to produce great effect, but there was not one line of it that did not admit of being dwelt upon. There certainly was no reason why such letters should not be read, nor any reason why Lancashire might not prosper in the west of Ireland. But letters from Lancashire might also be brought for ward to show thee recent measures of legislation had steppe d the progress of improvement and checked the growing prosperity which Lancashire men might confer. lie also held in his hand a letter from a Lancashire man, part of which he intended to read to the House. It was a letter addressed to the Editor of the Times, awl bore date the let of December, 184 S, with the signature " Francis Graham." As it had so recently ap peared in the Times newspaper, it doubtless was well known to the Members of that II nise, but there was one short extract of a few lines a hich he could not deny him self the pl- asure of reading, for Mr. Grchem took ex ceedingly just views of the present state of Ireland, and of the consequences which the present poor-law was likely to produce in that part of the United kingdom. Mr. Graham, part of whose letter he had to read, ad dressed the editor of the Times in these words : —'`A. Lancashire gentleman, eon to Mr. Eastwood, of Brindle ledge, near Preston, who has got a lease for ever from me of a large improreable tract, and who, in the two years he has resided here has expended between 4,0001 and 5,C00/. on it (no idle man), having employed on the average 50 labourers daily, and in summer sum . - times as many as 120, most of them belonging to the properties of other proprietors, and there not being or.e single pauper on the large townland on which ho re sides, containing 2,658 acres—on the valuation of the union being revised the other day, had his improvements valued at an increase of 1151. a-year, though none of them are as yet in the slightest degree reproductive. (He wanted to show how the present poor-law was fatal to Ireland.) The result is, Mr. Eastwood has dismissed all his labourers except twelve, and until a change in the law takes place has completely ceased all his improvements and employment, by which so many families were supported, who are now thrown upon the union as recipients of out-door relief." —(Hear, hear.) He was glad from those indications of sentiment to find that not only the Right Hon. Gentle man the Member for Tamworth, but the responsible ad visers of the Crown, were in the same boat with him; and he hoped that when the Noble Lord awoke from the slumbers he was then enjoying that he would turn his attention to the effects of the poor-law in Ireland upon the success of Mr. Eastwood's speculation. The Noble Lord would find that Mr. Eastwood had dismissed all his labourers save twelve, and he had adopted the reso lution of not proceeding with his improvements till the law was entirely changed. One immediate effect of this was that a certain number of fam ilies became entitled to outdoor relief. lie should now call the attention o f the House to another case, Oat of Mr. Prior:- 44 Another gentleman, Mr. Prior, who has a similar lease from me, and obtained from Government 8001. as a loan, under the Act you refer to in your article of the 17th' ult., the first instalment of which, 1601., he has already laid out on his farm, having previously expended a large amount of private capital on it, had his improvements, effected with this Government money, valued, and his rates increased in an equal manner ; the consequence of which is, that he wrote last week to the Government, saying he must decline taking the remainder of the 800/., as his doing so would make him liable to pay a greater sum than he even now does, to support the paupers of other estates." Those were the views of the state of Ireland which the persons best qualified to bear testimony to them furnished to the public. But the leading Mem bers on both sides of that House were all for remedial measures,and earnestly professed a desire to stimulate pi- Tate enterprise and industry under the sanction of the state. But the proprietor of Ireland treated their laws un gratefully or seemed to do so, for the obvious reason that they could not use those laws otherwise than at enormous cost. The House could not fail to have ob• served the circumstances which under the letter he had quoted bad been written. It was written in the tone of a man who desired to expostulate with The Times, alter one of its indignant and powerful articles, exercising all the influence which they were well known to exercise over public opinion. The writer of the letter appeared net only to have that object in view, but he seemed also to conclude that in the attempt of the Government to carry out their views, they meant at the same time to confer a boon upon Ireland by facilitating improvement and employment. But the Ministers of the Crown might rest thoroughly assured of this, that until the laws were alto: ed the hands of all men would be tied. He would quote again from the letter of which he had already read an extract:— " Owing to the principles of the present poor-law, the boon granted by the Legislature to benefit the country, by facilitating improvement and employment, is com pletely nullified; and until the law with respect to im provements on land being subject to increased rate for a certain extended period, is altered, and until each pro perty or townland is directly liable to support the desti tution existing on it, by employment or otherwise, the hands of every man, whether improving landlord oiron dustrious farmer, are completely tied, and thepoiastiin y _ ng of this country must go from bad to worse, the stop to. out of capital on land being completely 1?u Ireland, then, being in the condition _ous and the depicted in that e document, he could not help ask ing Hour Government how they coul d adjourn for the holidays the with such a law in existence?—(bear, as he could follow t he Right htHonourable Gentl eman the Member for Tamworth he did not understand him adhesion to the present poor law; but, as gi v ing in his was t h at Right nor- G e ntleman prepared to go back t o the law of 1 •89—for lio was presum e d to utidertak 81 the workhouse te st, and to maint ain that it must be ap plied. But he had heard the Right Honourable G. ntle man talk of employing the poor on the reads, and he confessed himself rather at a loss to understand how that was to be done consistently with a stringer t maintenance of the workhouse teat. He further under stood the Right Honourable Gentleman to oppose a 1 ibour-rate as bad in policy, and in many respects ob jeetionxbie. Ho hop , •ri that ho was correctly stating the sentiments of the Right Honourable Gentleman, for it was most important ihat they should have his opinion distinctly. If the labour-rate were to be denounced how were the paupers to be employed upon the roads of a couaty that was already over roadtd ?—(Hear, hear.) He had thus ventured to give his reasons for opposing the measure of the Government, and he could not help believing that the reasons he had given were founded on the cirownstonceo of 14 Vitici klo did ibis with the greater confidence, because he had .tot heard Minictera themselves maintain that their own proposition was adapted to those which would be, prol.r.bly, the perma nent circumstances of the country. He had also Ten timed to criticise the elaborate proposition of the Right Honourable Member for Tam worth, as delivered , the for to them i n t h e secon d of h i s series of speeches d t u l , i r :i u o r b d n t 1 t t s l address is th e3st'. subject. I t . h e Il it e ig s h h t ou n ld on be e ura g l l il a e d to he Baronetar would have many speeches, each edition revised and corrected for public use. He need make no apology fur thus dwelling on the fen h time r nts of that Right Hon. Gentleman, as everythingcontsidaetrinell from his lips must be of vast importance, considering s g id r e e r a i t o e g x hpeisri Brestonceo f e x p p u er b i l:c nc l e i fe i e n and more eCially administration2'oresp of Irish affairs. When they recollected how the Right Hon. Gentleman had been .Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland they might natura II suppose that the plans which he propounded toth y e House were the quintessence of all the projects that The found in t he pigeon-holes of his office in the Castle atDublin. But whatever view theft Bight lion. Baronet might tides, of the affairs of Intl Ind his suggestions would be calcu !Wed to cetch public attention, thought they might not satisfy the public necessity; nevertheless his opinions were to be valued not only for their intrinsic worth, but also on eccount of the position which their author (vett pied in the House and the ceuntry. They acre of value, likewise, beenwe they were significant of the way in which public opinion was being formed and the quarter to which it w 2, directed. He be ked also at the opinions of the Right Ho .. Gentl• man as proofs that the time hail gone by for d tiding with Ireland upon erounds of political economy, and it was something to have arrived at that when they remembered the propositions they had listened to, and what speech es had been made in that House session after session, and oppore tunity aster opportunity.—(Cri es of " Hear, hear.") When the affairs of Ireland were most pressing he bad frequently found great satisfaction on taking up his newspaper in the morning when he perceived that there had been a meeting of Irish Members in Downing -street ret(pec'ing some Irish railway, and greater satisfaction Ail' when he came down to the House and found that another railway was to be support( d. The capital, then, which his late Noble Friend had proposed to be applied to the purposes of Irish railways was now well nigh ex hausted, and in that very direction which his Noble Friend had pointed out. Let there be only another famine and all that his Noble Friend had proposed would be carried into full effect.—(Hear, hear.) He had spo ken respectfully of the plans of the Right Hon. Gentle. man, and he entertained for them much respect, a senti ment to which they were fully entitled; and when the ' House had heard those views propounded to them, na wonder that some who did not always keep present to their minds what occurred in that House, should ask why he and those who thought with him had not likewise favoured them with views of Ireland—why they had not followed the example of the Right Hon. Gentleman, by also becomine , painters. He could tell them that that had already been done. In adverse times, when they were political economists, he had put forward to them the necessities of the Irish and modes of relief. He should now, as then, oppose any proposition which tended to make any difference between Ireland and Eng land. The need of Ireland was an imperial need, and he maintained that it was as politic as it was highly wise and just, to treat Ireland as an integral part of the United Kingdom, and, with fitting assistance and friendly counsel, much might be done for Ireland that might be far more valuable than a rate in aid. It had been sug gested that Ireland would readily contribute, by means of an income-tax, to the necessities of her own poor, and he certainly should support his Hon. Friend the Member for Kerry if he brought forward a proposition to that extent. He should support au income-tax com bined with the workhouse test if it terminated that in justice to the land of Ireland to which he was strongly opposed ; and, as be considered that aid was required from the Imperial Exchequer, he saw no reason why it should not be contributed from an Irish income-tax. 6,000,0001. might thus be fairly brought into play, every species of Irish property might be taxed fairly, and there would be nothing having a tendency to induce mortgagees to foreclose. That class of proprietors would then contribute as readily as any other; a fund would thus he created for the relief of the Irish poor, and the pride of Ireland, the justifiable pride ot the country. might be legitimately indulged. That was his idea of an income-tax; and now he would seek to impress this upon the attention of the House, that if they wished to adopt the suggestion of the Right Hon. Member for Tam worth, they must revert to the law of 1838; and they must come to this, that they shall di minish the taxing area. But when they obtained such an income-tax as he suggested—when they bad stopped the great evil of the poor-law, then the State might aid the enterprise and industry of Ireland, accord ing to the suggestions of his Noble Friend, under the sanction and shadow of the Imperial Treasury. He did not despair of Ireland; and one object at the present mo ment was to meet difficulties of so pressing a nature that not a day should pass without thinking of some measure of alleviation and Improvement. The time had arrived when England and Ireland must learn to forget: it was useless to go back to the past. It would be unprofitable or worse to examine minutely the blunders of some and the corruption of all. He hailed as a new era that period when those recollections would vanish with the potato— when the strife which had subsisted between the two countries would In consigned to oblivion. Petty and tra ditional causes of dissension must be forgotten; both countries must redly be united, and Ireland, like the Patriarch in his struggle with the mystic wrestler, wou:d find that when the strife wai over OHe had been contend ing, not with an oppressor, hut with a guardian angel. Lord .1 RUSSELL said—The Hon. Gentlemen who Laciest sat down, to whem I have listened with the utmost attention during the whole of his stench, has msdeit necessary for me to enter ir.t.) &tali in re ply to him, extended far beyond the mere ordinary cc urse of the present det.a , e. But before I enter upon these larger q lestion., I think it advisable for a short limo to detain the House with some vindication of V..e project of the Government which is now before it. 'I hit pro ject is nor, as the lien G, n Leman represented it, in tend( d as a comprehensive view of the present Admi nistration to relieve the distress at pre a nt prevailing in Ireland, or to promote at once the general prosperity of that country.—(Hear, Lear.) It is lutende d oily us a merely temperery measure, adopted for the cure of the evils under which Ireland is at present suffering, but is not a reject contemplated to afford any ultimate or comprehensive relief.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") The Honourable Gentleman stated that the proposition of a rate in aid, as introduced by the Government, was unfair. Now, Sir, I cannot believe that any one would have said that it was unjust if we had proposed, in any or dinary year, or under ordinary circumstances, that the taxation of Ireland should be assimilated to that of Eng land.—(Hear.) When Ireland was not allowed to have recourse to our colonies ; when she was not permitted to trade with the West Indies or North America; when even the trade with this country was fettered like that with a foreign state ; then it might be right that the superior • amount of taxation should be borne by Eng land.—(Hear.) But since every restriction of this kind upon her commerce has been done away with , ; it appears to me that [hero would be no injustice to Ireland in proposing* that many taxes to which this part of the empire is subjected—such, for instance, es the laud-tax, the assessed taxes, the duties of the excise, and the income tax, should all be ex tended in principle and practice to Ireland.—(lliar, hear.) But if this be so, it comes then to a question of expediency whether these taxes should be extended to Ireland. It appeared to us that we were imposing a lighter burden upon that country, under present circumstances, when we proposed that a rate of no more than 6d. in the pound should be levied on all the rateable property in Ireland. But if we hal proposed such a system of taxation as I have alluded to, we might have contemplated applying its proceeds to general Imperial purposes. The tax we do propose, however, we intend should be appropriated to the relief of the suffering part of the kingdom only. Now, if it be just that we should propose such a tax for imperial purposes, is it not so when we propose it should be entirely applied to Ireland, and for the benefit of that country exclusively ?—(Hear.) Now, if there is any truth in this remark, so far as the justice of the proposition is concerned, I believe that our proposal can be maintained with psrlect justice. Ihe Hon. Gentleman opposite who has just sat down has said that the contemplated tax will be inadequate for its ob jects. He took the amount, at only about: 300,00(11. Well, then, a sum ot 50,0004 had been already voted by the House; and assuming the lion. Gentleman a calcula tion to be correct, there will be a sum of 350,0001. in the course of the year applicable to the relief of Irish dis tress. In the course of last year 390,0001. had been applied to the relief of the distress in the whole -of Leland; but still carrying out the charitable views of this country, the British Association had a large sum in hand. I submit, therefore, that the sum of 350,0001. would be an adequate sum for the purpose of relieving__ the existing and contemplated distress in Ireland. The Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire says our prop os ition , is an unfair distribution of the burden o f taxa in be cause it falls entirely on the lande d t h ose who property—on ose. who are peculiarly burdened—o n to this part of the more than another. With re gar d one elites in the country sub ject, it appeared to us that a s t here were rates to b e col lected for the relief of the p oor , _ t would be eas i er an d lighter to co llect i the proposed taxin the same way. B u t represent Ireland tell us that a tax upon if those who would be a property and income ell that while fairer burden than our us proposal —it they they they are unwilling to take our proposition, would accept an income and property -tax, and that sufficient relief would be given from their suggestion--I can assure those Hon. Gentle men there will be no such insuperable objection to their proposal on the part of the Government as will prevent me from adopting that form of impost which appears to be most approved of by those interested.—( Hear, hear.) l'he Hen. Member for Manchester seated in his speech, that having now for some years contributed to the relief of Irish distress in this country, Ireland was bound to take part, not solely and entirely, hut in part, in the alleviation of the pressure which now leans on that country. Anil in that opinion I concur with the lion. Gentleman. It is nothing to ti o present case t , say, as has been said in former di cussions as well as the pre sent, that the money contributed for the relief of Irish distress, from the Imperial Exchequer, was ill distri buted or lavishly bestowed. That may he brought us a charge against the Government; but as far us the people of Great Britain are concerned, (heir readiness is still the same to contribute to the ,distress where it existed.— (Hear, hear.) The application of the funds, therefore, had nothing to do with the question ot the large contribution made by Great Britain to the relief of distress.—(hear.) I um not willing to enter turther into this subject of the rate in aid, because questious so much larger and more important than the payment of sixpence iu the pound for two years have been raised in the course of this discussion. We have heard from the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, we have heard from my lion. Friend the Member for Man cheater, we have heard from the Hon. Gentleman who boa just silt durfu, speeches of aurpsortvg Witten Wm