The Sun. — London, England, 1849-03-09 00:00:00

WEEP! ❑ent of woidd ;off. in doptcd. d since prin not in e con- , nts of le sin• t, and , sub as th© unish• mitml. everal mville their em at ahieh hance trans- THE SUN, LONDON, W as of opinisin - that the discussion of them was the I a manner which did infir.i.e credit to his catejeur and 11 leans of creating considerable di s t rus t i n t h e m i n d s o f I f ran k ness, t h at they had not been fairly dealt with. So te ; t , colonists; a n d, t o avoid doine so, a large disere- f; r, tea-, as to the ir t et and t! e causes o f th e f ac e Nur in the tionary power ought to be given to the Government to third place, is it my intention to•nigist to enter into any carry out the system under those modifications they c .ntroveny as to the character i f the se causes t o w hi c h considered necessary for the welfare of the colonies tied this gentleman has referred. It is not my intention to of this country.—(lleer.) night to introduce any controversy as to the policy or Mr. HUME said, much that had fallen from the the impolicy of those changes in your laws by which, ac night ,-, e-- Hon. Gentleman convinced him o f the necessity of cording to the Member for the West Hiding, the agri having all the documents and information on this sub- cultural classes have not been fairly treated.—(Hear, Ject It was possibl e t o l a y b e f ore t h e H ouse prev i ous to h ear .) I h o ld t h e same op i nions upon those measures brin • to in on a discussion of th i s nature. They ought such as I have frequently intimated--the same that I b e aware what modific a ti ons or c h anges h a d ta k en h ave attempte d to d eve l op i n the House on more than Place in the system, and how these changes and one occasion. I still believe that your new commercial mo difications were operating. In regard to all system is founded upon erroneous principles.—(Hear, these they were totally ignorant ; and he was hear.) I still believe that, in constructing that sestets), delect, in one respect, that the subject had been intro you mistook the rules which regulate the beneficial and ucted, f or i t now came out that the Government having advantageous interchange of commodities between ' ,nese flieted co ns id era bl e ev il on t h e colonies by means of nat i ons. I st i ll believe that in attempting to ob alterations in the system of transportation, had viate the inconvenience and injury of hostile tariffs iellopted another system. But what wa s th e use o f f o l- by opening y our po r t s , . y ou h ave taken a course ' ,ten ? 9 l vlng this ever - varying course in regard to this ques- which diminishes the efficacy o f B r i t i s h i n d ustry. Some years ago they had a model prison erected I still believe that under your system the natie e e a t Pentonville, in a most healthy s i tuat i on , an d t h e y had labourer is more unable t o g i ve hi s pro d uce for co nvicts sent there, a n d k e pt at t h ree t i mes t h e expense f ore i gn produce t h an h e has b een heretofore, and that in ordWhich ordinary convicts cost the c untry, and all that in that proportion he has become tributary to the foreigner er to t est t h e wor ki ng of a new system. Well, cer- —(H ear, h ear)— that he has less command of foreign i n roduce, and that i nasmuc h as t h e precious metals are le sufficient ti me h a d now b een g i ven to test the P sent hour, no report or resolution had been come to in metals. I still believe that you have embarked in a oer that they might decide whether that or the other career which must e n d i n t h e d egradat i on of national go Syste mshould be adopted. It the Pentonville system was industry, and may lead to the catastrophe of a financial o d , it ou g ht to be introduced into every p r i son i n convulsion.—(H ear , h ear ) I st i ll believe that you have h i n e , kingdom. He contended that, by the system they but one way to e xt r i cate yourse l ves from the embarrass ''t adopted, they were keeping in this country a vast ments you are already experiencing, and the calamities n umber of t h ose convicts who ought to be sent out of wh i ch I believe are impending, and that is by. a frank fl 6 as ies speedily as poss ibl e. — ( H ear, h ear.) Let them recogn i t i on of the principle of reciprocity as the funda- jto Pe n t onv ill e, and what did they see? Why, a mental principle of your comercial code, and that th e e r ee number o f those convicts employed at a very gen - only legiti mate means you h ave to f i ght against hostile y el and ag reea bl e emp l oyment of mak i ng mats, an em- tar i ffs is by countervailing duties. Still I retain these e"Yrnant so genteel and agreeable that a set of ladies' opinions, and 1 have expressed them not only on this kaids • h - q t ., might be set to it with equal propriety, and yet but on every legitimate occasion; and I shall take Prey called that hard labour, and considered it a just and every legitimate means I possess of making them known oper punishment for criminals.—(Hear.) His opinion to the country, and of obtaining for them from the that they might keep those parties in prison at such public that approbation to which I think they are entitled, Work for 10, 20, or 30 years, but their attempts to re• and which I believe they will ultimately achieve. Be (3111 them b such means would prove an utter failure, cause, however, I may differ from the changes made of as they had already done. All the information he had late years in your commercial system, lam not one of gathered from those in charge of prisons, te d, cease- those who wish to recur suddenly to the past, by appeal coeellYr we ll acquainted with the treatment of prisoners, ing to the pas s ions o f any suffering classes or taking ad _nvinced hi m i n that opinion. Not many days ago, he vantage of any party combinations. I wish, on the con- Paid a visit to one of those public estaLlishinents iu West- trary, that the change, when it is effected, shall be penile tame who and a gentleman happened to be there at the neat—permanent because it is called for by the convictions te eP ta tellp was . a great advocate for this reformatory sys- of the country. I look, therefore, to legitimate means to rand said he had himself seen a reformed prisoner. obtain that result, which, for the sake of the country, I T he governor of that prisoner immediately said he would stilt believe to be inevitable. I look to public discus go 4 0 miles t o see such an individual, as he did not be- sion, to private investigation, to the failure of economic itv e such a b e i ng existed, and he (Mr. Hume) was of prophecies, and to the fruits of sh ar p exper i ence. — his opinion, there never had been such ca individual. The (Hear, bear.) But having frankly expressed my a buses of the p resent system, however, showed the no- opinion upon these points, showing, without offence I euessity there w as f or then ppointment of sense officer of hope, that whilst I wish to av o id co n t rovers y on t h ose Justice or som e individual, no matter what his title, to subj. cts which have no connexioa with the measure I ',limit: ) , and arrange convicts as to their mode and place hope to introduce to your notice, lam still unwilling them but, at all events, he would not have that any one should suppose that I shrink from l e e remain in this country to undergo the sentence the opinions I have always expressed to this House on `l'kry tra nsportation. He considered the pl..n of assignment the matter; because the reflection of every day, the ole h .e,rY good one. The Right Hon. G, ntleman had said nervation of every hour, tended only to confirm my con (teeelt was a system of slavery, and so it ought to be.— victiou of their truth.— (Hear, hear.) I think I may be ' r ii ear, hear.) He did not Iske that feeling of morbid Permitted to say that, after the extraordinary changes tae lb .enitY which would endeavour to screen these who of 1846, which so greatly afficted the agricultural inte th rited punishment from its infliction. He agreed with rests of the country, they were at least entitled to this e Nub! Lord • ' result—that the use mof taxation should not rest mi tes, ethat transportation ought never to eat, . • would justly and unfairly upon them.—(hear, hear.) That is Beti l un discontinued; but at the same time he hot . eoe convicts to the colonies in such numbers as to in. the first proposition . which I lay down. My second is, e Lumode or prove injurious to the colonists. A great that the unjust and unfair apportionment of the taxa tion which they complain, must be removed and re telePeelle e was incurred to the country in consequence of e rf 'telure of the punishment of imprisonment, and the distributed, and that in that re-distribution they may ofr eil Tng up of t h ose su bj ected to it so oaten for new find . ,if not a complete, a c ons id era bl e rel i ef for the suf treos'ess That, h e conce i ve d oug h t to b e reme di e d b y mengs they at present en d ure . Th e question I have e o P ° rtation, but h e wou ld k eep no conv i cts i n th e to place bef ore th e H ouse requ i res in fact very little 1 00 412 trY longer than they could be sent away to the co- statistical detail to introduce it to your notice, though Sir had been selected for them.—(Bear, hear.) tne interests with which it deals are vast ; though o f d s _ JOHN PAKINGTON considered that the state the results at which the measure I recommend aims, s av ! question for the last few years had been most un- are no doubt very considerable—the question in itself b7 l . B , la etnry. He highly approved of the change adopted is extremely simple, and like every thing which is based 0 ,,,,,`9a Present Government, and wished, as well for his upon first principles it is clear and easy of apprehension. ferusenformation as for that of the country, to know h ow It seems by accounts now in all our possessions—by the I3lrteat principle of separation to which the Right Hon. accounts of the parochial or rating year which termi nated on Lady -day, 1848, that a sum of not less than ten Th e °l- i',et (Sir G. Grey) hail alluded should be carried Rev u..r. Baronei then alluded to the opinion of the milliens stet lit g has been levied by direct taxation upon ti sk _ aer. Nealer on the system of separation and pu- the real property of this country.—(Hear.) The poor eoueM Fat . in the penal colonies, and said ho perfectly rate, the county-rate, the highway-rate, the church-rate, thoughtith that clergyman, for he (Sir J. Pakington) and that variety of rates wile which your are all faini- I N P.s that the best and most judicious system liar, and to which it is unnecessary, as I conceive, I need si oil ee treat the convicts in such a mann. ras their va- further refer, and which are levied generally under the r aof ' d ispositions seemed to require, so that their chit- head of poor'ssrates—these altogether at the terminus fi e jr and good conduct might be subservient to their Lion of the last rating year formed a sum of not less i f „re e mancipation and independence ; and t h oug h t t h at than 10 000,000/. sterling levied— a nd le-vied only— realuer system, which would t e nd to in cu l cate on t h e upon th e rea l p ropert y o f t hi s country—(Hear, hear) "°f CO . could , convicts a spirit of self-reliance and industry, —and in addition to that sum of 10 000,000/, sterling ve rtitn ue engrafted on the plan now carried out by Go- under . direct taxation, which it strictly and legally r ouse "It, that a great and useful result would be the speaking is, we have . also a local tax—the land-tax the, e q u ence, not only to those convicts, but to society in —local because it is apportioned to localities, be cause rt, is assessed in localities and by local jurisdic k Penal colonies. tion, and because each locality is liinit , d in the liability h a te.• G LADSTONE did not think that full justice sea been done to the probation system of 1846, which for its quota. The real property of this country, then toffitleedeeedes4icnagrtaied on under Lord Stanley, and had colitis pays at this moment 12,000 : 006/. sterling of taxation, to part of his (Mr. Gladstone' s ) p e ri o d o f which no other species of p ro p ert y i s su bj ect. Now, tvii, : when he saw that there were many and great Sir, this question will be placed before us in a manner ati g , ' r ising from the system of transportation be had which will convey the necessary result in a moment to Po t tle e eted to his colleagues to put a suspension to trans. every Gentleman's mind, if we ascertain the annual s,sodett°n for 18 months, because it had been a system amount upon which these 12,000,000/. of taxation are ees'eurctive of horrors and of iniquity, which he felt fully levied, and compare that annual amount with the whole ittld he must ultimately destroy itself as a system, annual income of the country. We have all of us the tee e 1,9 should add that Sir W. Dennison approved of materials in our possession by which we can form this I re (iteration made in that system by Lord Stanley, for calculation and arrive at the result. Every Gentleman 'gen t r W. Dennison) had stated to the then Govern- knows the 12,000,000/. I, have referred to is raised a e _ e that a considerable improvement was effected. upon the rental which is contributed by real s uh f, erected be found it to be his duty to state that he property to the amount of 67,000 0001. sterling eft;il ue red there w as t oo great a prec i p i tat i on on t h e part per an num —th a t t h at t 2.000,000/. is assessed, in Q re e, Noble Lord th e S ecretary f or t h e C o l on i es ( L ord fact, u p on a renta l o f 67,000,000/. sterling per 14,-,, with regard to t wo measures -- t h e fi rst , t h at of annum. No w we h ave no diffi cu l ty i n ascertaining s era up th e pena l settlement of Norfolk Island, and, w h at i s t h e pro b able value of the income of England 11,,, ° , 1411 y, that of convey i ng conv i cts from N ew South a t thi s moment . W e h ave a Parliamentary paper Q f e e 'es to Van Diemen's Land; for the Noble Lord (Lord moved for by an Hon. Gentleman opposite—No. 747, Which gives us the amount of the income-tax paid by 4 01 ,3) said, the convicts should be removed from 1 s) , stoillt Island,„ to Tasmania, which order was disobeyed England and Wales to the 25th of April, 1846. The Jese e: ' W. Dennis,,n and the result was, that this Paler was laid on the table of the House in 1847. It is 1,,,...r0a01is of s 4 strong act disobedience was subsequently highly a mere mechanical operation to calculate the amount of i s eP ved of by the Noble Lord (Lord Grey), which income from the amount of the property and income •tax c'eret and evident proof' that the conduct of the contributed under the five schedules by England in 1846, b eat ar Y for the Colonies had been precipitate in because the total income of the country is represented es !" of the business. He would next state that by that tax. The total income of England and Wales, then, in the year ending 1846, was, according to the last lett felt Pleased that there was no intention on the return under the five schedules, 186,E88,9581. But, in epra of the Government to entirely do away with the Gs, e x ! ' sYstern, and hoped that the Noble Lord (Lord asmuch as 67,000,000/. sterling is the assessed rental of b e 1 3 , 1 would extend the area of transportation, because real property in England and Wales, in which every class MA: sorry to say that there was at present a consider- of property, without limit, is included—even cottages te st , d eviation from the prudence and wisdom of our an- being assessed to the poor-rate—in order to calculate the , ita e ts, , when the states of North America received con- relative position of the assessed rental of real property Wi th but so few in number, comparatively speaking, with the whole income of England, it will be necessary Poe t a e settlers, that they were totally lost among the to ascertain how much income h afforded by those 10 _ s ation. He feared that the ruinous and demoralis properties which are in t assessed to the property and t i) 6 YSte tu o f ry ~, confining convicts to a small area of terra. - bring odium on the name and idea of trans. by the Right lion. Gentleman the member for Tame ters e ,: t °n, and that, therefore, particular caution and worth (Sir R. Peel)—a prod, nt and cautious authority te e e Possible effort would be required on the part of —when he was introducing the property- tax. On that occasion Sir R. Peel, in making his estimate, said he ! ) I. t"-)_eeretary for the Colonies to maintain the system 41 th i. " B Portation without exciting prejudice and disgust took the incomes under 1501. a year as a quarter of the income of the whole country. Now, a quarter of the e grs tte e lPublic mind. It was for that reason that he re income of the whole country—of the 186 000.0001. ster if}:lseaa‘4l:lll.a_t the s foundation of such a didpenal colony as hug which appeared under the five schedules of 1846 , e or ,_s . wa not carried out; tor he not think that would be 62,000,000/.—(l give the round numbers), and 1846 h e e i reieg of a new door was a measure that should that makes the income of the country amount to v ert e ee nraged, particularly when he hoped that Go• 249,000,000/. Now, the question I have to esk is this: tieeee'ent would take into their consideration the import 249,000,0001. should those 12,000,000/. sterling of direct taxation 4 ibl ill o f as many receptacles for convicts as pus- why levied upon a portion of the whole income of the 41 4 h e6 t the system might become so obnoxious that it country, which is in fact little more than one fourth of k r " o given up altogeteer. ( Ilse ' tWART said he did not mean to prolong that the whole?—(Hear, hear.) That is a simple question; Iv sou s it is a question in which the country is deeply interested es to , °, but rose to ask whether Van Diemen's Land and which a great portion of the country is now asking Wer e ~ be a receptacle fur convicts ; and whether there ee p. " ll r,otber colortit sto be opened for transports ? themselves; it requires no mystification of statistics to answer. The whole income of the country is heard Alderman SIDNEY would have wished to have ttb eaf hat a proper system of prison discipline was 249,000,000/., and yet for the purposes to which I Npe,, t° hat established, so that there might be an end of have referred you assess only one fourth of repeated fed re- committals. As to the gaol of Newgate and that whole amount.—(Hear, hear.) On what principle evil, alone of Correction, they were amongst the monster of justice can you defend that system? What are the kr:, t he i . system of transportation in this country. objects of this local taxation? The maintenance of the Re a l r• SCROPE referr e d to the state of the Irish poor of the country; the maintenance of the means of internal communication; the administration of justice, or t h e md asked who was to be regarded as responsible Dr e a, and the maintenance of the sacred fabrics of the country. Are not these affairs in which all property is equally in oitee • GREY, in answer to the Hon. Member for las etch, stated that the utmost period to which soli- terested?—(hear, hear.) Upon what plea —upon what tt i ' iruprisonment could extend was eighteen months, principle can you vindicate a system that makes one ii 't es e l might be reduced on the report and recommends- fourth of the income of the country liable to these great D il e of those who made a msnthly examination of the charges ?—( Hear, hear.) This question has been locis 11, 40 ners. I n answer to the Hon. Member for Dumfries, dentally introduced in the House before, and has been, s e stated the three c o l on i es to wh i ch convicts were to be I must say without offence to any one, but superficially th 4 e t were Van Diemen's Land, New South Armies, and treated. There have been attempts made to raise up th,Oape of Good Hope. As to the question relating to an idle and odious controversy between landlords and ik t lrish gaols, he re fe rre d to the report of the in- manu f acturers, as to who contributed most to the •I, l o ra of prisons, poor-r a t e , an d as to w h o ought to contribute most -0 motion was then agreed to. endless and vexatious controversies of that kind. Iv, . . MALT TAX. Now it i s agr i cu l tura l l aud that bears most of the ti p et : DISRAELI, at nine o' c l oc k, rose and presented b ur d en; t h en i t i s maintained it is household property tiß eeci l tion which he had j us t rece i ve d , and that was t h at ma i nta i ns the most grievous portion of the burden. e l I see bY nearly 2,000 persons in th e actua l occupation I w ill not enter i nto those assertions—l am not one of Plsi e 're in the counties of Cambridge and Suff ilk, com- these who want to depreciate the importance of house property—who wish for a moment to shut my eyes to t erm Mof the malt-tax as most unjust to the agricul ire , T h ,, LereA and praying for its repeal. the fact that during the last half century there has been ' Petition was, amid loud cheers, laid on the table, a great eleenge in the relative position of the different be e AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS. sections of real property. Far from wishing to disbe lisve or csnceal that from myself, I look upon the result th • I SRAELI—Mr. Speaker, I rise with the hope et 1 as one of a most satisfactory kind—as one. proving the 4 1 0 e lay induce the House of Commons to consent to prosperity of our country—proving, by the best of tests, cet `sa t measure of justice, of conciliation, and of policy, that there is a great am ount o f fi xed capital in the land to ,fltears hear.) I t i s not my intention on this occasion of this country.—(Hear, hear.) I agree that dwellers in towns inare assessed fer the support of their poor, for tress " into any detailed demonstration that great dis.. example,a manner which . I urn not at all surprised We ei ete in the agricultural districts of this country makes them clamour. I willingly admit that these con the ettl_ that . g u a etu ber distress exists or not is not necessary for tributiuns are bad, nay more, that they are grievous; se t r e °_tnent in which I mean to recommend to your and I quite sympathise with the possessors of real pro•• a ble. lithe resolutions that I have placed upon your perty in towns, who are so unequally and dispropor iellse I 'lt, Sir I shall not enter into these details, be- tionately assessed. The measure which I shall introduce, st believe , it . eisty es ( is generally acknowledged that that if this House will go into Committee of the whole House ess e ght s si ‘'nes exist.—(Hear, hear.) It is only a few to-night, is one which will relieve the suffering towns s, f t.his pee that an Honourable Gentleman, a Member that will meet those complaints I hear so muc h o f f rom f3ti _ste eee / Buse, came forward and offered his voluntarily Manchester, Bradford, and other great cities and marts t iPe eto In that behalf—a witness certainly not to be of manufacturing industry. I sympathise with their t , 4 3e 5 ," of any morbid sympathy with the agricultural sufferings—l acknowledge their grievances —and I say le u the Honourable Member for Manchester. He it ' ' 1 bl to th p ) sessor• of real property in these is into ere e e , s -a, e sele it l e s . . ee other night th a t h e could not for a moment towns that they, being only one-fourth of the property agr e 'l fr om • 4 ,, icel fe _ In hims e lf that t h ere was distress amongst the of the country, should have the whole of' these grievous a n d le o 'rel classes of this country—distress most severe burdens upon their shoulders. So with another very im- Ctir s t ;;lnount ; and I inn willing to leave the state of portant species of property, which is very amply and 4 0 depend up on his testimony. Nor, Sir, am lon ably represented in this House, and which is in perpetual 111 (‘e4Bl 'ati ue ,ses of about to enter into any inquiry . as to the . hot water on the subject of rating to the poor—the rail 4fiL et a ll th at distress. That also is an . investigation way interest. Nothing can be more monstrous than the be i a 2. _flecess ar y to the argumen t which I mean to amount to which the railway interest is assessed to the uo 7or e y :9pert of the reso l ut i on which I have placed support of the poor—l agree in all their complaints, but w e eles of `,', But if I did r e q u i re t o k no w what are . the not its their remedy. Ido not see any justice in the ttt s! h o . s i te that distress, I also would appeal to a witness railway interest seeking compensation for their burdens e 2Jee t a u _Pon the benches opposite, and who upon this by throwing the burdens altogether upon the agricultural l e ss of w°lll d, lam sure, be admitted by all to be a wit- interest. I acknowledge the grievance • of the railway eh Rrt'at th outd . and unimpeachableauthority on this head— interest that they should have to pay for e W,, s Epeal t o th e H on. G entleman the Member for the whole property of the country, while hen, G ee eeldine e e. (Mr. Cobden).—(Hear, hear.) That they are only a section of the fourth uee e ess h e e etan aus e'en on a recent memorable occasion, when part of that property; but if they will support me in the politkalicated to his assembled fellow-countrymen this great measure, I mean to propose they shall obtain oe uo aros e " Programme of his intended course, spoke of relief. It is the same with other individuals; it is the rs),.. in _o e t England with much sympathy—(lronical sa me with companies who supply us with slater or with ‘4al ted their condition, and acknowledged, in light; they are perpetually wrangling about the poor- rates. But some of my friends think that they have great cause for triumph if they can inflict the burden Oil these companies. Ife I for the proscribed interest of railway property. I thick the way in wl.ich they are rated is most unjust, and the same with gas and water compatties who bear their portion of the taxation. But the real property, which is one•fourth of the wealth of England, is exposed in the way I have described to much heavier t fixation. It is unjust, and we must have the means of redressing it, because the measure I sug gest is founded on justice, and therefore will ultimately succeed. If one calmly considers this case—if it were not in England that it occurred—it is as if one was travelling in a foreign country, and that, for the first time, we became acquainted with the system of finance. It is so remarkable that if we were in a strange country and learned that, independent of those who bore their share of the whole taxation, there was a private and separate revenue to an enormous amount assessed on one fourth part of the property of the realm, I ask, what would be the conclusion at which we should arrive ? Why, Sir, we should say, this must be a part of some country—probably a remnant of some conquered race—some proscribed portion of the com munity who have been c wquered, and who have borne these burdens for centuries—these are the fruits of a vassal-war which have been removed. But who would suppose that this peculiarity was the privilege of the proud and rapacious aristocracy of the country ?—the people who made all the laws ; and &so made the laws for their own advantage, according to the doc trine of those who pretend to instruct it?—(Loud cheers.) But, Sir, the most anomalous part of this un paralleled state of affairs is, that it is not the law of the country. The laws of England have always been the laws of common sense; they never anticipated conclusions so monstrous and so oppressive.— (Hear, hear.) I need not now, considering those whom I address—l need not re mind them. I say, that the old statutes never anticipated or enforced any such injustice. We know that the fa mous Act of Elizabeth was conceived in the wisest spirit, and expressed in the wisest terms—that all the inhabitants of the country, according to their means, should be called upon to contribute to the maintenance of the poor. We know, that, in comparatively modern times, the Act of William and Mary established a land tax—only in common parlance called a land tax—a tax on all property. It was not a question of contribution from land only. The land-tax extended also to persons holding certain offices. Under the Act of William and Mary—l believe, Sir, that the judges to this day pay that tax, though I believe the tax was assessed upon the allowances which Here established in the time of William and Mary, and not upon those granted by our gracious Sovereign. And, in modern times— in our own time—you have declared all property, of all kinds, should be made liable to those imposts which only real property has contiuued to pay. I need not remind the House that stock in trade escapes assess ment to the poor-rate only by an annual Bill, which is passed also by this rapacious aristocracy.—(Cheers.) That rapacious aristocracy exempt stock in trade from the poor-rates, and they inflict this burden on that pro pert) , in which they are peculiarly interested. I ask, then, in the first place, with what show of reason can it be advanced, that, for the objects for which these rates are raised and taxes levied, the local property in a dis trict should have to bear additional burdens? Whether a man's property be in broad acres, or whether he receives his revenue from other sources, he is equally liable to the maintenance of the poor. A district, you say, uses cer tain roads—the man living in it is interested in the admi nistration of justice, and for the good of his soul we hope he goes to church. N o h uman b e i ng w i ll argue against this. Expedients you may suggest. You may say that the system has gone on, and that there is a difficulty from which it is impossible to extricate ourselves—that there is nothing more difficult than to tax personal property in a locality—that it is not only inquisitorial but unjust to do so, and that it is impossible of accomplishment. These are arguments which you may use, but no man can maintain them on the principles of justice. No one can lay it down or maintain it for a moment, that either property should be exempt. The system may be con tinued, but no one can argue that it is just. Now I will admit fully, frankly, and fairly, that the inconveniences —perhaps even the impossibility—of rating personal property in a locality in any satisfactory manner, are in dubitable. But I am of opinion that if we pursue this important inquiry with a less superficial spirit than we usually, from various circumstances, regard such matters in this [louse, we may, perhaps, find that the difficulty will disappear, or that a solution of it may be found. In the first place, I confeas it appears to me that a great deal of difficulty arises from a confusion of terms, from the world persisting to associate with what is called local taxation, as a necessary consequence, the idea that the purposes for which local taxation is enforced are of a local nature. Sir, I doubt whether it can be supposed that the purpose for which taxation is locally levied is of a local nature. On the contrary, I think it is levied for purposes of a much wider and more comprehensive character. I take the first, for example, as being the most important tax—l mean that for the maintenance of the poor. I know no a priori reason why the mainte nance of the poor should be the duty of a locality. The maintenance of the poor is either a matter of police or of social or religious duty. In looking over the ancient statutes of our predecessors, we find they viewed it iu the limited light of police regulation. To allow people to perish of famine is to produce mendicity and violence; and certainly the most convenient way to defend our persons from assault, and our property from rapine, is by a poor-law. But it is not to be understood in that lirnit~d sense. The matter is viewed in a much higher light in this House and through the country.—(Hear.) It is viewed as a social duty, justified by state policy, and under the sanction of religion.—(Hear.) But it' the maintenance of the poor be a social duty, it is the duty of every one according to his meaus.—(Cheers.) And, Sir, in a country like England, an ancient country of complicated civilisation, it is totally impossible that you should lay it down as a principle that a particular dis trict shall support its poor, unless you can prove that that district produced its poor, or unless you can insure that local district from metropolitan and imperial legislation, which may have the effect of intering with employment. Why the very transition from war to peace throws out a whole district from employment, yet that portion of the country has not waged war or declared peace, and there fore is not responsible for the mainte 'lance of those people. That is a view of the question which, if fol lowed up in a country like England, cannot fail to throw light on the circumstances of the case. The very altera tion of a fashion will seriously affect some districts; the invention of a machine in the north of England —an invention in Lancashire, will throw a part of Northamp tonshire out of employment. In many parts of England those rural counties are held up to reprobation if they do not employ their poor, and the existence of the dis tress is attested to as a consequence of the late system of protection. What is the fact? Why, that there are parts of the country which have been the seats of ma nufactures. The manufacturers have haft a population created by manufactures, and these the land have never been able to absorb. That is the cause of the misery of low wages. In Lincolnshire, where there are no manufactures, on the contrary there we find the highest wages. But what I have named is the real cause of the pauperism which exists. So, in the county of Sussex, where the iron manufacture once flourished, they have lefts population which the land has never absorbed. Then you call upon a district to support the population where there is not much employment. I might say with refer ence to this subject also, that either the nation must support the poor, or throw them upon the employers who have profited by their labour; yet in 99 cases out of 100, where the labourer is thrown out of employment, the distress of the employer immediately follows. In the case of highway rates the same view of the question immediately offers itself. It is easy, indeed, to make flippant observations, and to ask why should not the . farmers pay for the se roa d s —( w hi c h t h ey d o l)—i t i s not historically true that these roads were made for the farmers. If the agricultural classes had the monopoly in these roads, if no one else used them, if they were private roads, then there would be a valid reason for these rates. But inasmuch as everybody had the use of them till the railways came into operation, and that these roads were covered and traversed by the clerks and agents of the great manufacturers; inasmuch as that by law you have settled that a stranger, though he contri butes not one farthing to these rates, can indict the pa rish if the wheels of his cart or his carriage are injured —you must admit that public ways are for public use. Besides, I want to know what item of expenditure can bear this analysis of local purposes and local objects. Now I will state the case of a gentleman resident in a midland county, who, in consequence of the distress which pervades the country, looks at our estimates ; he opens the estimates, and finds a sum of money of 500,0001. or 700,0001. for foreign packet service. He says, we know that three-fourths of the letters are carried either to the metropolis of London or to Liver pool, and that the other fourth would not be carried at all if it were not for the merchants and the commercial interest. What have I to do with the packet service? It would be much better that a rate should be struck upon London and Liverpool for this purpose. This is a clear case of local taxation, Or he might, in a midland county, and like the King of Bo hemia, who has no seaports—he might object to har bours of refuge. And he would say, you might as well strike a rate on the Cinque Ports, and thus get rid of the difficulty. 'The same man might object to the ap pointment of inspectors of factories. But, no, Sir, he does not take the limited view which financial re formers do.—(Cheers.) He goes on from year to year in a wise and national spirit, contributing to all. But if you pursue the inquiry to the subject of expendi ture, that is of much greater extent. Now, I take this case. About six years ago the merchants of Liverpool were very much vexed, and they though they were very much oppressed in South America. They were re• ceived in Downing-street with endless memorials ; and they called upon the Government to interferd by force, and defend their property. The Minister who then pre sided in Downing-street was a very experienced able man—till then—(fltlr)—he was thought to be a cautious statesman. But, on these representations of the Liver pool merchants, he was induced to interfere in the troubled waters of La Plata. What was the conse quence ? There was a vast expenditure, and great in dignation evinced. Six years having elapsed, and my gentleman in the midland county, unfortunately aware of this expenditure, because it was thought unnecessary to the interests of commerce, finds that all he knows is, that some Manchester gentlemen attack the Government on account of their armaments, and denounce these armaments as being only kept up to support the younger children of the aristocracy.—(Great cheer. ing.) I say that is a clear case for levying a separate rate on Liverpool —it is a clear case of local taxation, and we could bear this bur den of 10,000,0001. or 12,000,00 W. if the rest of the taxation were apportioned in the same spirit. But look at the case of the Manchester school. A few years back the Manchester merchants were of opinion that the Chi nese empire, possessing 300,000,000 of human beings, were indicated as their best customers, th a t our home trade was as nothing, if each Chinese spent as much aycee silver 43 amounted to sovereign in the year; and they accordingly pressed the Government, by means of their restlessness and commercial intrigue, into a war with China. Now, my country gentleman, not being so dull as he is supposed to be, might have said, " I have great doubts on this subject. I inherited a magnificent library from my father, and, from what I have read, I think it is not likely, though China may possess 300,000,000 of iehabi ants, that they will carry on a commensurate commerce in exchange for our goods." Now, what the country gentleman said, hap. pened ; and never was there c-rester disappointment evinced than by the Manchester merchants. They said it is true that, having obtained a reduction of the duty, we now consumed 30,000,0001b5. of tea. But, Sir, my country gentleman might say, "I doubt whether this cone= ption of 30,000.00011e5. of tea is good for our nerves. Why not take off the duty on malt, and return to that Saxon beverage to which our Saxon ancestors owed their long lives, and whose example I desire to follow? When I find that this China affair ends in a considerable expenditure, may I not call for a rate to be struck against Manchester?"— (Laughter) Sir, it is the same with the county rate—it is the same with the church -rate. The county rate is one upon which, with the permission of the House, I will for a moment venture to touch, because I am sure, from what many Hon. Gentlemen have said even in this House, where we are all so well informed, especially upon this subject, the greatest mistakes sometimes occur. Now the county rate is a rate that is levied, is an ancient tax that is raised in this ci untry—a direct tax—for the purposes of justice. And, Sir, about the year 1835, it is known to the House that the Government of the country (aware of the great and unjust burden on the land of this rate, principally occasioned by the expenses of the execution of justice) agreed to pay one-half the cost of criminal prosecutions, and that was done without much of the public attention being given to it, and the general impression in the House and the country was, to a great degree, that the landed in terest, as usual, had taken advantage of the Minister in a weak moment, and by some means or other had got rid of one of the great burdens, and foisted it upon the Consolidated Fund.—(Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, that was in the year 1835. I want to show you how the county rate is expended, and for what it is expended. And in order to clear this point from those misconceptions that are so popular in the public mind, I will just call the attention of the House to the manner is which the county rate was expended at a period so recent as the year 1835. I take that period, because subsequently to that year, in the year 1846, the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth made another change of &peculiar nature with reference to the county rate, to which I am about to refer. Sterne, to illustrate the misery of capti vity, takes the case of a single captive; and to make you understand—to put the case popularly and clearly before the House,—to show you the nature of the county rate, I will just refer to my own experience of one day at the assizes, and this will show you how the county rate acts upon the county, and how tar, and in what degree, the county may be interested in the causes of that expenditure. Now, I take this case. A woman came down to a hamlet in the county with which lam connected—to a place well known to every body—Salt-bill, on the borders of Berkshire and Buck inghamshire. She was a stranger, and took a very hum ble lodging in, I believe, a public-house. A few days afterwards a man came down by railroad; he had been previously conne c t e d w ith the woman; h e v i s i ts her and murders her. H e l eaves S a lt-hill. Th e e l ectric tele graph all ows hi m t o b e a rrest e d t h e moment havinghe arrives been discovered a t t e stationimmediately inLond London, the m ur d er after its perpetration. He is, therefore, arrested in Mid dlesex; but the crime having been committed in the county of Buckingham, the man is taken back to Salthill, and he is committed to the county gaol at Aylesbury. The case was one of a difficult kind, for the murder had been committed by means of poison. It was necessary that scientific men should be sent from various parts of England. It was a very expensive trial. But the prisoner was convicted, and outraged society was vindicated by the execution of the Quaker Taw( ll.—(Elear, hear.) The clerk of the peace (al though one-half the expenditure of the criminal prose cution was defrayed, and as I have often heard it inti mated, unjustly defrayed, by the Government)--the clerk of the peace -sent in his bill (and it was a fair and reasonable bill), for the county quota for that prosecution, and it amounted to 300/. Now, I want to know what had that county to do with the crime?—(Hear.) The man did not live in Buckingham shire; he was not born there; he did not even reside there ; but that is one of the modes in which the county rate was only very recently expended.—(Hear.) I will take another case. On the same day it happened that a man who was proceeding on one of the canals which pass through that county with a cargo of coals, and who had committed a robbery, I think, in either the county of Rutland or in the county of Northampton, was arrested in the county of Buckingham. He was kept a considerable time in gaol, and the bill for his trial and conviction was upwards of 1001., he having no more to do with the county of Buckingham than with the House of Lords.—(Hear, hear.) I will now take another case; and, let it be remembered, these are three cases which occurred on the same day, and I have taken them because they all describe and illustrate different points. A draper in a flourishing borough town, in the same county, had a burglary committed in his shop, from which broad cloth to the value of 20/. is stolen. The burglar is discovered, arrested, sent to the county gaol, tried at the county sessions. The whole ex pense is paid by the county rate, while the very goods, the stock in trade of the very tradesman, to vindicate whose rights of property this expendituro was incurred, are exernired by you and your laws from the county rate.—(Loud cries of " Hear.") Now my argument is this—if the vexation and oppression of counties paying only one-half the expense of criminal prosecutions are so grievous, so essentially and palpably unjust as the genuine ones I have placed before you, what must they have been before the change of 1835? Doubly as grievous, doubly as oppressive, doubly as tyrannical. Nay, even the change of 1835 has been de scribed as a positive means by which the landed interest foisted one of its burdens on the national Treasury.— (Hear, hear.) Now, I admit that in the year 1846 the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth took off the other moiety of the county rate, so that no further bills can be sent in like that which I have mentioned in the ease of the Quaker Tawell, end no further cases of oppression can occur like that of the bargeman. But how was the act of tardy justice done? The Right Hon. Baronet acknowledged that the justice of the case was un impeachable. He did not pretend for a moment on that occasion that there could be any question about the jus tice of the public paying those costs and expenses which were incurred for vindicating justice and the rights of society. But the Right Hon. Gentleman gave that relief to the landed interest upon a memorable occasion, re specting which I intend to have no discussion, as far as I am concerned at present, beyond saying that it was the deprived a memorable t a occasion t c o t n which i nwhich it had so itlong of that enjoyed. This act of taking the other half of the county rates as to the exp, nse for criminal prosecutions was the most important measure of compensation given on that occa sion. —(Hear, hear.) The claim was so just that it seems to me that all that was required was, that it should have been stated properly to the House, and every gentleman on that side, whatever bis political opinione, whatever his occupation, mus t h ave felt something not only unjust, but something shabby in making one particular class pay the expenses in which the whole nation is deeply interested.—(Hear, hear.) But having now on two separate occasions, with a very long interval between —with great difficulty, notwithstanding the influence of very powerful ministries, done this tardy justice in this respect to the owners and occupiers of land, what is the result, so far as relief goes, as to this very tax? The county rates are increased in amount—(Hear, hear) — notwithstanding the Government have themselves under taken the expense of criminal prosecutions. This in crease in this impost is accounted for by gentlemen who never inquire into the subject, by our neglect in attend ing to our affairs, by the levy of this tax not being placed in the power of the community of the county. The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) has frequently urged that point.—(Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, in the first pla ce , l et me show you t hi s , th a t although the State ha s un d erta k en to rel i eve t h e coun ties from th e b ur d en o f cr i m i nal prosecutions t h e w h o l e of the cou n ty ra t es o f t hi s country, with the except i on o f one important item, and that relates to public works of a particular description, and of uniform benefit—l mean county bridges —the whole of the county rates of this country, generally speaking, are, are still expended:for the administration of justice.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") I have before mu the last abstract of the accounts of the treasurer of the county of Buckingham, and I have reason to believe it is a fair representation of what occurs it every other county. After a certain expenditure on bridges, very heavy in a county through which the Thames passes, and where, for one great bridge, they have been obliged to expend, although not a rich county, 27,000/.; the expenditure of the county, with that exception, is somethin g like 12,000/. a y ear; the whole of it caus e d b y expenses for the administration of justice, clerks of the peace, coroners, maintenance of gaols, lock-up houses, conveyance of prisoners, &c. The allowance from the Government for prosecutions, and for the maintenance of persons under particular circumstances, is less than 4,0001., and, therefore, still two-thirds of the expenditure of that cottnty (and every county is in exactly the same position) is, in fact, for the administration of justice, which is for the interest of all, and in which all are con cerned. But, Sir, we are told that the county rate, not withstanding the relief given by the Government, is still increasing, and that it is so because those who admi nister the fund. of the county are unequal to the occa sion. That is the position of the Hon. Member for Mon trose. But I tell you, if you go to the finance committee of the county of Buckingham, you will find your match. They are men quite equal, even to the Hon. Member for Men trose.— (Hear.) But, year after year, you forget you have been passing laws in this House forcing those districts to erect most expensive public buildings— (Hear)—and giving them no option whatever on the subject. The Hon. Member for Montrose talks of the management of fund s . Why, all that those mag i strates can do is t o assem bl e an d as trus t ees un d er an Act of Parliam en t d ec l are a rate to mee t t h e expenditure which you in y our l eg i s l at i ve capacity agree to.—(H ear. ) I do not deny that those prisons, built upon a reformed model; to which my Noble Friend (Lord Mahon) has referred in his interesting motion, are of great impor tance. Far be it from me to deny that the advanced philanthropy of the age does not call for these erection'', and the institution of this improved discipline ; but what I main' sin is, that this is a great national object ; that this is a great national purpose, and that nothing can be more unfair than that a highly enlightened and philo sophic senate should pass laws and inflict upon districts the raising of most expensive public buildings, and then refuse to pay for that costly increase.—(Hear.) I then say that the local taxation is not raised for local pur e; and I am per w ill make wh en f p e o e s tly s : a w l a t r i e s e r f a i t s h e e d n t b o i r e n e t a i t n i n o a n a w l h p i u e r h p y o e s e n s i make that assertion. The fact is, that the revenue of ,id, FRIDAY EVENING, MARCH 9, 1849, this country has been raised for a long time under two systems—the one is the modern system of indirecteaxa lion, to which all are subject—the other is the old sys tern of direct taxation, to which only old property is subject; which has its cell around old property, and which gulps it at its pleasure.—(hear). Sir, it would not be difficult to show how, in the course of time, this anomalous state of affairs has come to pass—how it has happened that real property in this country should necessarily be subject to what is called the general taxation of the country, like all other property ; and yet at the same time, and simultaneously, it has been obliged to bear the burden of another reve nue of the enormous amount of 12,000,0001. sterling. Sir, the anomaly lam sure has been long recognised. I am sure at least that the grievance has been long felt - . But the difficulties of dealing with it have been consi• derable, and I am perfectly aware of the remedy which certain Gentlemen opposite will only be glad to ofler me, and which they will say is the necessary iiiference of my statement—namely, that you should have recourse to a system of national rating. Now, Sir, I have myself the greatest objection to that system—(llear, hear) — end my reasons are both of an economical and a political kind. I cannot see how you can have the necessary check which is requisite for the administration of funds in a district, if the rating is national; and I am nn• willing to give up local administration, not merely be cause it insures an economical distribution, or is the best means of insuring an economical distribution, but for political reasons connected with our happy self•government of a still graver character. But, Sir, though I admit that our s) stem of self-government and our scheme of lccal administration are very precious, still, at the same time, I do .ask Honourable Gentlemen whether they are prepared to insure eco nomy by practising injustice—whether, in fact, they are going to lay down, as one of the principles of our local system, that in order to insure a good l esl administra tion of affairs, it is necessary that one or two particular classes of the country should be subject to an unjust and oppressive taxation?—(Hear, hear.) Sir, I am well aware than in placing these views before the House—in laying it down as a principle that real property has no more right to be subjected to this taxation than any other property, I am aware that some lion. Gentlemen, con fining their objections to a particular section of real pro perty, will tell me that land, purely speaking, is favoured otherwise by our law.—(Hear, hear.) The probate and legacy duty will surely be brought forward. Now, Sir, for my own part, as far as I am speaking for myself, and I believe I may say I speak for many others on the sub ject, I am perfectly prepared to enter into an investiga tion of that subiect in the fairest spirit, and join with you in any endeavour for the equitable apportionment of that taxation.—(Hear.) But I protest against that question being brought under the notice of the House to divert them from the question which I have brought forward.. Pro pose a Committee to inquire into the whole subject of the probate and h guy duty, and I will support your motion.—(Hear.) Bring forward a measure founded upon sound information and real research, offering a just remedy, and I will give you my vote to carry it. But I am bound to tell you—it would be disingenuous not to tell you—that having given as much attention as I can command to the inyestigatiora of this question, it is my opinion that the result of your Committee would be very different from that which many of you expect. There has been so much said on the subject that I must take this opportunity of stating, that of the legacy duty now paid, to the amount of 1,200,0001. a year, 500,0001. per annum is paid absolutely and directly by the land—that all the leasehold properties and all the ecclesiastical lands are not included in the half minim', and pay not only legacy duty but probate duty; and, as far as the landed interest is concerned, there is also included in your probate and legacy duty the stock of every farmer who dies, and the property of every cultivator of land who is subject to these taxes. So that you will find, if you exa mine this subject with the attention which it deserves, and the absence of passion which I doubt not you will give it—you will find, I believe, that it is not the land which pays the least portion both of the probate and the legacy duty. Mind, I have said nothing of your present arrangement of stamps.—(hear.) I make this observe • Lion to the lion. Gentleman opposite in no hostile spirit. I remember my promise. I will redeem it if he ever gives me the opportunity. But Ido protest against the Hon. Gentleman, or any one else, particularly after what you have said, introducing these extraneous subjects into the simple question which lam putting before you. Is it just, or is it unjust, that the real property, one-fourth of the income of the country, should bear these burdens in which all property is equally interested?—(Hear.) That is the question.—(Hear.) The lion. Gentleman does not for a moment say that all property is not equally interested. The lion. Gentleman it he takes a fine house in Berkshire to-morrow, I dare say will look over the roads in his neighbourhood—perhaps, he will bo a pre server of game; perhaps, his keeper may be shot by the poacher; perhaps, he may proceed against the poacher at the assizes; and I dare say he will do all this without paying the highway or county rates. Well, now the question is, which under these circumstances is the best method of settling this long vexed questien.—(Hear.) I am afraid that I shall disappoint Hon. Gentlemen who have sedulously announced that all I was going to do was to move for a Committee. But instead of doing that, I shall express my readiness, it the House will go into Committee of the whole House, to offer a plan for their adoption.—(Hear, hear.) And as that plan is founded upon justice, as that plan is conceived in a spirit of conciliation, I hope it will have a chance of success.— (Hear, hear.) I am perfectly aware that in attempting to settle the question nothing could be more unwise than for the possessors of real proper ty to stickle too severely on their right. I admit that in a country like England, where a system has existed for a considerable •period, however cpprt ssivo and unjust that system, that the period of duration does not alter the objectionable character of the arrangement, or miti • gate the nature of the oppression. You will, there fore, be still aware where a system has existed for a considerable time, clear as may be our case, it is neces sary and wise to come forward in the spirit of compro mise.—(llear,bear.) Ido not say I have a right to say thte, these taxes are imposed for national purposes—no one can say they are not - national purposes for which they are levied. The local taxation is levied on one fourth of the income of the country. We say we are ready to pay our quota, or fourth, but you have no right to ask us to pay more.—(Hear, hear.) We are ready to pay our portion of the 10,000,0001. or 12,000,0004—f0r it is a varying amount—but you can not fairly require us to subscribe to a principle which calls upon us to undertake a greater amount of responsi • bility.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, I feel it is of the greatest importance to maintain the system of local edministra tration which obtains in this country; therefore I shall not propose to change the principle of self•government that exists.—(Hear, hear.) I anticipate it will remain, and that the rates will be levied as they have hitherto been levied. But considering all the circumstances of the case—considering that the land has some slight ex emptions of little importance, but which may be re membered at this moment—the amount is about 144,0001. which it would be inconvenient to rid the land of by a change in the existing law; considering it to be of the greatest importance, the maintenance of the law of local administration—considering that this is a period in which all portions of the empire, and all the great bodies, should be prepared to make great sacrifices— I say, in the spirit of compromise and conciliation, I should propose the present system of local administra tion remaining ; the present system of levying rates continuing ; that the local districts should be respon sible for one moiety of this amount of taxation, and that the other moiety be contributed by . the Consolidated Fund—(hear, hear)—the Government having no difficulty by the machinery which they at pre sent possess, with some slight modification, to obtain from the privileged properties their quota.—(Hear, hear.) I take that to be a just proposaL—(hear, hear.) I think terms might have been demanded founded on justice, extravagant and violent. But I think that the proposition I have made is one which all men, after due reflection, will consider a fair and reasonable proposition —a proposition founded on justice and recommended by policy —and which, if put into practice, will give relief to the suffering portion of real property in a legitimate manner, not by demanding from the community, but by merely granting in recognition of their rights. Now I am at a loss to conceive where the great opposition to the proposition will arise. I shall be surprised if any per son of' authority rises in this House and maintains that this taxation of ten or twelve millions is not a burden on real property which no other property shares. As far as that section of real property is concerned, whose case is not a whit more advantageous than the other—their distressed condition being undoubted—for we have the opinion of the Right lion. Baronet the Member for Tamwoith recognising, almost in his last speech on the subject in 1846—fully recognising those burdens. The Right Hon. Gentleman placed his vindication of the corn laws, I believe, so late back as 1844-s—he placed his vindication of the eerie-laws, when he was Minister, on the acknowledged burdens of the land, and hence the necessity for that system of taxation to which the reso lution laid on the table refers. But from the Ministers of the present day—l am not goins , to read old speeches of the Noble Lord, or anybody else—but I am going to refer to a document much more worthy of attention. I will not say one word respecting the past ; but on the memorable occasion, which most men thought a grave occasion a letter was written by the Noble Lord, evidently under a feeling of deep responsibily, when the Noble Lord failed in forming a Government in 1846, and lamenting a circumstance in language befitting the occasion to his Sovereign. The Honourable Member hero read an extract from the Noble Lord's letter, which concluded by stating "that the Noble Lord would come forward without delay with measures to relieve the occupiers of land from the burdens to which they were subjected." Well, then, that is a great authority in favour of these resolutions. The Right lion. Baronet and the Noble Lord arc my witnesses, and will be the the answer to the lion. Gentleman who, I doubt not, will get up and maintain the argument that real property is not subjected to impositions which other property is liable to, and from which it is in justice ex empted.—(Hear.) Well, then, is it that her Majesty's Ministers—they being the most powerful party must be considered before all others—is it that they shrink back from the idea of performing a great act of justice by levying anything like an impost on the privileged pro perties? This is not so, for only last year they made a proposition to increase the income-tax, not to do a great act of justice and to conciliate rival classes, or to support an injured and aggrieved interest of importance, but to do what I never could make out, that laughter.) But .) the purpose of paying the militia.—(fleas an there gter fui would But if the militia had been called out, hl have been a militia rate, and real property would have been liable.—(Hear, hear.) Well, considering the Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Baronet have recognised the burdens I have referred to in the amplest and full est spirit—considering the process I have indicated for a just apportionment of the burdens to take place—with machinery also in existence—l want to know what op position I am to expect from those who are the profess sees of liberal principles—who are the vindicators of Ulm of all classes—whose hearts are always touched with deeds of injustice, and who are prompt to come forward and succour the oppressed?—(Hoar, hear.) Are they going to complete the fulness ~f their liberal posi tion, and to maintain that this portion of property slia:l bs overburdened? They can have no abstract hostility to the process of relief I have indicated. They all admire direct taxation.—(Laughter.) We have suffered from indirect taxation this many a year —we wish you should now taste its fruits , —(Laughter.) Well, under these circumstances, coesidering the sanction we have in the expressed opinion of leading men —the facility afforded by the machinery of the income-fax—the abstract approbation in favour of direct taxation avowed by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, I hope this oppressed real property will stand some chance of obtaining redress.—(Hear.) But do not let the House imagine that the sufferings of that class are not considerable. Do not let them con sider that the portion of real property connected with the cultivation of land is not in a state of depression. This is acknowledged without hesitation. You see how eager they are for relief by the petitions fur the repeal of the malt-tax. You see how a portion of the country, indirectly interested in the growth of barley, wish for a repeal of this tax. You also find many, not item, - diately interested in the growth of barley, who complain that they are labouring under the oppression and weight of this unjust tax ; and that they are ready to adopt the first remedy that is offered. I expressed in the two reso lutions on the table of the House my sincere opinion on the'subject of the malt-tax. I think, when we recol lect that the landed interest of the country—a con siderable portion of real property is subject to that amount of taxation to which I have referred in the first resolution. It is a great aggravation of the grievance when we remember that two thirds of the revenue of the excise is con tributed by restrictions on the articles of their growth.— (Hear.) I think the circumstances connected with this tax have been so fully and recently before the House that I need not trouble myself with going very much into details with which Hoe. Members are undoubtedly furnished. But there is one circumstance conch cted with the proposition for relief from this tax which must be well understood by the House before they can fully com prehend the feelings of the farmers on the subject. This suffering class cannot but remember that 20 years ego they made application to the House of Commons for the repeal of the malt-tax, and what was the answer? Why that the minister could not spare the sum from the re venue, he could not spare the 3,500,000/, from the malt tax. The farmers yielded to the representation of Go vernment, and next year the same Government took off 3,500,0001 for other articles.—(Hear, hear.) I will not say whether the policy was wise or unwise on the part of the Government of that day; but was it ingenuous to treat the agricultural class that way? Or are you sur prised they should remember this with mortification and shame, and now have no confidence in the leading men of the country?—(Hear, hear.) What happened ie 1834? The Right Honourable Baronet the Member fur Tamworth was then Minister, and that period was, perhaps, the most difficult, and not the least distin guished portion of his eminent career. In that year there was great agricultural distress, and the great body of the agriculturists of England were of opinion that the repeal of the malt-tax might give relief. At that time there was what was called a considerable commotion, in modern days it is called agitation, and a Noble Lord who then represented Buckinghamshire, who is still remem bered by the farmers of the country for his firm and consistent conduct—(Hear, hear)—and pledged himself to bring forward a motion for the repeal of that tax, and embarrassing as was his proposition in consequence o . the Right Hon. Baronet being in office, still he redeemed kis pledge.—(Hear, hear.) How was he met by tlae Right lion. Baronet? The Right Hon. Baronet exerted all his powers to combat the motion, and he took occa sion to administer a solemn admonition to the country gentlemen. The Right Hon. Gentleman told them. "'rake care what you are about. You may get rid of the malt-tax, but I tell you what you will get instead— you will get a good comfortable property-tax." —(Hear, hear.) Now such was the effect produced on the agricultural interest, they fled like frightened sheep. Some came down to the House and rescinded all they had promised to their constituents—they dreamed dreams—they saw visions. —(Hear, hear.) Well, what have you got now ? You have got the malt-tax, and with a good comfortable pro perty- tax you have all those burdens of land which you found so oppressive, and which the Right Hon. Baronet admitted were so oppressive. Are you, then, surprised that the farmers of England, after such incidents as these. should be a little ill-tempered? Are you surprised that they should fly to the first offer of refuge and succour— (Hear; hear)—when they recollect how often the ques tion has been matured out of doors—how often it has been debated in the House ; that it was once carried and rescinded immediately afterwards—are you surprised that the farmers should feel some distrust in the conduct of public men?—(l4ear, hear.) That this tax is an injury to the farmer no one can doubt ; that it is a tax upon the consumer is no answer to his com plaint. All taxes are taxes on the consumer. No one can deny that the tax is an injury to the producer. Mr. M'Culloch, a political economist. and, though a political economist, a sensible man— (Laughter)—one of the most rational of the school, in one of his works on apportioning the amount of duties, considers that land, on account of its being taxed more than any other property, has a malt. tax claim to the ex tent of 2s. Therefore, the demand on the part of the farmers is not so unreasonable. I do not deal with the domestic arrangements of the tax; they are known to all, felt by most, and aro the hourly conversation of these men. Baying now frankly expressed my opinion on the subject, as far as the amount of loss and annoyance to the farmer are concerned—at the risk of losing that fa vour which they have accorded to me, I counsel the farmers not to press for the repe al of the malt-tax. And I will give you my reason. I advise the farmers not to press for a repeal of the malt-tax, for I consider the portion of benefit they would receive from the repeal of that taa would be slight, compared with the inconvenience which would be occasi ned; and, further, the particular reason why I recommend them not to press for the repeal of the malt-tax is—if they attain the repeal of that tax, they will obtain that which may prove a fatal obstacle to those measures of relief I now propose, and to other mea sures which I hope to be able to propose.—(Hear, hear.) The measure I have proposed to-night will allow my to take off 5,000,000/. or 6,000,000/. from the real property of the country—from property which will be felt in every village and in every farmhouse in the country.—(Hear.) The benefits that will be produced will be felt in every town—not in sectional departments —not by sectarian arguments—but they will be benefits felt by every far mer in the kingdom, far beyond what would be produced by the repeal of the malt-tax. It will also be felt by great bodies of our countrymen not connected with agriculture—felt as a measure founded on justice and on truths which no one can impugu.—(Hear, hear.) If we deny these men justice—if we deny redress to real pro perty—if this property is to be still encumbered with ten or twelve millions of taxation, from which pri vileged property is exempted, we most not conceal from ourselves the probabidty, if we do not meet them in a spirit of justice, that you will have not only an appeal for relief from the malt-tax, but an ap peal for relief from other taxes. You will make an op• pressed populatiou run a muck against all taxation. I have been asked by Gentlemen from Ireland whether I intend the resolutions which I have laid on the table to apply to their country. It is my intention they should apply.—(llear.) I can conceive no reason and know n o principle why the application should not be made. If I have not specifically introduced the case of Ireland into the debate, it has been because the analogous rates and taxes levied in that country are levied by a different machinery, that would have introduced different figures into this discussion, and would have ccmplicated a pro position which I wished to Iv ep perfect in the simpli city of its justice, and unclouded with details which might have distracted the attention of the House from its due consideration. But it is my intention, if lam per mitted to introduce the measure I have mentioned in a Committee of the whole House, to follow it up by a mea sure which shall apply in the same spirit to Ireland. I cannot comprehend what arguments can be urged against Ireland being relieved in the same spirit of justice. Ido not offer such a measure to Ireland as a boon which is entirely to reanimate her in her present depressed position, but it is an arrangement which she is entitled to claim from the landed interest of this coun try, if they themselves receive it. There are other mea sures which I think might do snore for Ireland than even the present; and if I do not briag them forward now, it is because I feel this is not the occasion to introduce them. I was taunted the other night by a gentleman representing an Irish constituency, because I opposed the proposition of Government, and proposed nothing. The criticism is not just, and rather stale. It is neither new nor true.—(A laugh.) It is not our duty, because we do not approve of a proposition, instantly to bring forward a counter one. We are in opposition, and our duty is to oppose.—(Laughter.) I can easily understand why Hon. Gentlemen opposite cannot approve of an opposi tion being in existence. But we are sensible of our duties, and shall endeavour to fulfil them. I will, how ever, tell Hon. Gentlemen from Ireland that there is one means of assisting them which I am most anxious to introduce into this House. It is a great and cone preheasiee measure. I would wish Hon. Gentlemen on either side to forget their fatal feuds, and join with us to restore their depressed and prostrate country. — (Hear, hear.) Had my lamented friend been spared to us he would have introduced a measure which I believe would have done mor e f or I re l an d t h an a ll the measure s ever introduced by Ministers for the last half century — more gr e at comprehens ive , more b ene fi c i a l than n re ( m h e le a a s r u .7 which unfortunately iusnfuosretulensastetolysthieempeteut e . party feel ings, assis tde ne not I reland n — d unless Irish M em b ers w ill throw as l de t _ thei r e land, oth w in i g th e o a u can ings, and rememb er their interests in h N which they c an n o t stand long.—(bear.)be more fatal to them —nothing m ore injurious to the t c f u o t m u r b e i nfionrgt unrest c s o o u f n E tr n y g t l h a a n n d t t h o e m ir a n in o ! tain their interests in their m utually-oppressed proper- with e and th el welf are an,i d i o n f t interests I s h f a a v ir e , e i n a d m eay su ou re red no t t o i p n la a c n e i be n e te lo m r ! pera t e spirit—the views an d su gg estions of those who grievances involved in the resolutions I have placed on the table o f t he Ho u s e. These complainants complain a(i House—ni l o e a f r tihhee trustarin are the various classes which, combined and united, form what in popular language is called the landed interest— a portion of the nation, which, whether we l oo k to t h e i r property, to their numbers, or to the weight and in fluence which necessarily result from their social posi tion or from their interesting occupation, still form the most considerable order of our suciety.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, it would be disingenuous if in this discussion I at tempted to conceal that the landed interest do not merely complain of the grievances alleged in these reso lutiens, but of the great injury which they deem they have received from the hands of this House.—(Hear, hear.) It is not my intention now to enter into the policy or impolicy of those great measures which you passed three years ago—which you passed and which they deplore—(Cheers from the Protection benches) — but it is my duty to represent to you that dull or in different as you may sometimes hay© chosen to picture them, they have not h p r ed in this country.to:iiftielianntetcri,luiyssece.oarulsn,btro7f: Pen unnaindwhat has hap itenrir:eonaendenddevstailiolvitun of) haveun much witnessedhw that proper ties h a s and new sources of influence, and they have wit nessed them without jealousy, for it is a part of their creed that national prosperity depends upon the union of all classes.—(Cheers.) They have not witnessed with any hostile feeling the rightful representatio n of those interests and properties in this House; but although they have observed these great incidents, and with no other feeling but such as becomes a manly mind, it is but right that you should understand that it is not without emotion they have witnessed that the whole course of your legis lation for }ears has been to invest those new properties with pririleg,s, and simultaneously to deprive them of theirs.—(Loud cheers.) They have not forgotten that they have been spoken of in terms of contempt by Mi nisters of State—(Renewed cheers)—aye, even by the son of a great house—a house that always loved the land, and why m the land still loves.—(Continued ap plause.) They have not forgotten that they have been g., leld up l i euintteengotgh t au o tt p et. u hT e .i l (r ic pn; odium and: oblilieuginel ueshi r tr, e ty p r, r st u .h) b a a t t T i i (n n ) heoyi, b d y triumphant he a n y e d a n y o s t w f o a r s considered the invention of gods and the occupation of heroes, has been stigmatised and denounced as an incubus upon English enterprise. They have not forgotten that even the very empire that was created by the valour and with the blood and the devotion of their fathers had been held up to public hatred as a cumbrous and ensanguined machinery devised to pamper the luxury and to feed the rapacity of territorial nouses. The fact is, Sir, that these things are very f and to digest. They. are not plea sant to the humble, and they are intolerable to the justly proud.—(Renewed cheers.) These are things which you may depend change the heart and the blood of nations ; and whether you think their feeling is founded on justice, or whether you deem it baseless, I tell you—and every Member of this House, every good and wise man must feel, that nothing is more to be de precated, that nothing is more dangerous, than that con siderable classes of the country should deem that they are treated unfairly by the Legislature.—(Hear, hear.) It is a fact, Sir, that the spirit of the landed interest is deeply wounded, and whether they have foundation for their feeling or not, it is one which I would recommend any Minister not to treat with contempt.—(Loud cheers.) I fancy that it has been somewhat too long the habit to believe that you might conduct yourselves towards that interest with impunity. It was a proverb, even in the •ime of Walpole, that they might be fleeced with all security, and I have observed that at no time is the landed interest more unjustly treated than when demi gegues are denouncing :them as oligarchical usurpers. But this may be dangerous play if you are outraging justice. You think you may trust their proverbial loyalty. Trust their loyalty, but do not abuse it.— (Cheere.) I dare say it may ba said as it was said 3,000 years ago, in the most precious legacy of political science that has descended to us—l dare say it may be said of them that the agricultural class is the least given to sedition.—(Bear, hear.) I doubt not that it is as true of the Englishman of the plain and the dale as it was of the Greeks of the isle and the continent ; out it would be just as well if you also recollected that the fathers of these men were the founders of your iberties, and that, before this time, their ancestors nave bled for justice.--(Hear, hear.) You may rely upon it that the blood of those men who refused to pay ship-money is not to be trifled with.—(Loud cheers.) Their conduct to you has exhibited no hostile feeling, notwithstanding the political changes that have abounded of late years, and all, appa rently, to a di m i nut i on o f the i r power. They have inscribed a very humble sentence upon their rural ban ners, but it is one which, it I mistake not, is calculated .o touch the heart and convince the reason of England— .' Live and let live."—(Great applause.) You have adopted a different motto —you, the leading spirits on the benches which I see before me, have openly declared y our opinion that if there was not an acre et land culti vated in England it would not be the worse for this country.—(Hear, hear.) You have all of you in open chorus been always ready to announce your object to be to obtain a monopoly of the commerce of the universe, and to make this country the workshop of the world. Your system and theirs are exactly contrary. They in vite union. They believe that national prosperity can only be produced by the prosperity of all classes. Yon prefer to remain in isolated splendour and solitary mag nificence, but believe me I speak not as your enemy when I say that it will be an exception io the principles which seem hitherto to have ruled society, if you can succeed in main taining the prosperity which you desire without the possession of that permanence and stability which the territorial principle alone can afford.—(Hear, hear.) Although you may for a moment flourish atter their de struction—although your ports may be tilled with ship ping—although your factories may smoke on every plain, and your forges flame in every city—l see no reason why you should form an exception to that which the page of history has recorded; that you, too, should nut lade like the Tyrian dye, and moulder like the Ve netian palaces.—(Loud cheers.) But, united with land, you will obtain the best and surest foundation upon which you can build an enduring prosperity; and you will find in that interest a consoler in all your troubles; in dangers your undoubted champion; and in adversities your ready customer.—(Renewed applause.) It is to assist in producing this result, Sir, that lam about to place these resolutions in your hands. I wish to see the agriculture, the commerce, and the manufactures of England, not adversaries, but co-mates and partners— rivals only in the ardour of their patriotism and the acti vity of their public spirit.—(The lion. Gentleman re sumed his seat amid prolonged applause.) Mr. HUME said he could not help expressing his utter astonishment at the remedy a hich the Hon. Gen tleman had proposed for the alleged distress of the agri cultural interest. His speech had not been at all in ac cordance with his resolutions, for his resolutions stated ,hat the burden of local taxation " bore with undue severity upon the occupiers of land;" whereas in his .peech the " occupiers of land" had never been men tioned from first to last.—(Hear, hear.) It had been all about the landed interest, and the plan which the Hon. Gentleman had proposed would benefit the landed in terest alone. What benefit it would confer upon the tenant-farmer he (Mr. Hume) could not possibly ima gine. The lion. Gentleman had asked with what justice they could call upon the landed proprietors to pay the local taxes he had enumerated. He (Mr. Hume) would say that they were bound to pay them upon every prin ciple of justice. The lands were obtained originally upon condition of rendering military service. That, for the convenience of all parties, had been commuted into the payment of certain taxes; the lands that had since changed hands had been bought with the burden of these taxes upon them, and under proportionate deduc tions for the same, and, therefore, the landowners had no right now to ark to be relieved of them. The statement of the Hon. Gentleman, then, was all moon shine. It was an appeal to the charity and commisera tion of the House, not to its justice. The Hon. Gentle man had spoken of the roads as imposing a burden on the agricultural interest; but wherever good roads had been established at the expense of a county, they had proved more than reproductive as regarded the value of the landed property. Then, with respect to police es tablishments and the administration of justice, were the same parties not interested in preventing robbery; and had not the property of a county always been bound to uphold those establishments and that administration? It was the ancient lords of the soil who, in the absence of the Sovereign, were the administrators of justice. Bridges were built in early times for the convenience of the lo cality; indeed, there were none of the taxes mentioned by the Hon. Gentleman which did not come within the category of taxes raised within the district for the advan tage of the the district. The tenant-farmers had been hoodwinked and led to suppose that the motion would lead to their relief; but, if the whole 12,000,0004 taxes were removed, what would bo the consequence? The very next time the landowner came to let his land he would charge the full rent, including the amount theretofore paid for those taxes. Nothing could be more wild than the supposition of the Hon. Gentleman that the tenant• farmers could be so stolid and stupid as not to see through the present attempt. If the Hon. Gentleman succeeded in adding 6,000,000!, to the taxation of the country another income-tax would be necessary. The Hon. Gentleman addressed merchants and manufac turers as if they were the only parties who ought to pay for the packet service and other objects of national con cern. But what was it that made the land of England five times more valuable than the land of Poland, though it was in itself no better and produced no better crops? . The difference con s i s t e d i n t h e en h ance d value which a wtic n if arose from the op era ti ons o f th e Birmingham arce n d Man cheater manufacturers, and from that_ Liverpool But for had been stigmatiz e d as carried on in L would he as little worth as that t? the last two days. delivered within e speeches had been deli their enterprise, capital, and success, the now to o t broughtthe 4,0001. A Reverend Gentleman , had spoken o o l a f a d farm land Somef whichEnglund strangegla n in influence of a year. manufactures? The day was coming ce and commer("H would be done.— ear, hear," from the ) Up to this benches.) hour the landed interest P r poeition ben of the expenditure 1792 wasTroenwtehdatawt a7osot/h.attohwouinggh. and taxation. bad ha d t their families been provided for by means of !lad no raised from the industry of the country? It was taxes too much to hear other classes taunted, as if no class when justice th were of any avail except the landed proprietors. The control Hon. Gentleman did not propose the repeal of the mat ter. He (Mr. Hume), however, would do so, having consistently maintained that the malt and hop duties were two of the worst taxes, and having voted some years ago with the majority of the House for the repeal of the malt-tax, though Honourable Gentlemen op posite a few days after reversed their votes and the decision. In 1821 he moved for the repeal of taxes to the amount of 4,000?., which were imposed upon salt, leather, candles, and soap. The taxes on the first articles had been repealed. and the soap tax would also have been repealed, if Lord Muntesgle had not made a fool of himself.—(Much laughter.) He now wished to repeal taxation to the amount of 10,000,0001, imposed upon malt, hops, win dows, soap, bricks, paper, and other articles; and, when those imposts were removed, he would abolish the Excise department altogether. It was not to be supposed that he could succeed in repealing 1 0,000,0001. of taxation all ai once, but he would abolish the malt-tax as soon as he could get the farmers on his side.—(A laugh.) Agri cultural Members who might vote against his reso lutions must be pr e p are d to encounter strong oppos ition at the n ex t general election. The farmers were ere e becoming men o f sense, and all that he (Mr.liu wanted was th a t the county Members shou ld behave better. T o s h ow t h e pern i c i ous e ffect of the malt. tax, it w as on l y necessar y t o s t a te that the con sumption of the article had . increased only t h i rty w ithin the same period. he would high duty in To show the eft ct o f Ireland, per cent. since 1780, although the population had in. creased from 79 to 80 'per cont. following o Y i ea m r a s it Yl Co heli n. owned was 4,41 0 , 000 the duty was S. 4d., state that in 1795antdhe bushel.. The duty Was in t iess i d thaeverfiavgee fission erely on of their ment yed ent ord ing the hat the ild, ire