The Sun. — London, England, 1849-03-20 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, AIARCII 20, 1849, Passes; in a tron:cal climate. In 1843 , the In "as only 2: 1 ,- per cent, ; in 1844. 2, 1 j nor cent.; in 1845 :3 1 Per cent. ; us 1546, 2 per cent.; in 1847 (yellow Rover). 7 Per cent. I n t h e i s l ar d. of llsrha , oes no legit:r eie . e than 1.000 lest eon:a be rea.:Aied, end :s 01")- ; 1011 of medical menty,t. above thi! 11 tlrf ace of the fever cQntagi n. With reia ct to te e , - cePtnant of the men, of course, General Pe , rkelty Possessed the power of ordering such en , arn:)ment, but net t nu -1 after receiving a report from the tnedin,loth,s , r as to the necessity of a measure of that kind. Ia ;nen. ..ing the name of General Berkeley, he was boun d to ;:aate that his attention to the men under his conitnend A° s unremitting. He visited them, not weekly, bit te ▪ t a 3; went from bed to bed in every ward, sp - )ke to i r ," e ro, encouracred them, risked his life for th-ir corn- C rt • He was happy to state that the epidemic a great degree passed away, and that, according to h e last accoun t s , there remained enly two caws in tile e ii sPital. hoped the unforunate occurrences which taken place would lead, at least, to this good re -4111t - -the establishment at B trhadoeu of an effici , nt sanitary barrack upon Gun Hill, to which the troops co uld in future be removed on the first appearance c Yellow fever. He wished now to say a few 0413 as to the general conduct of the a r my durin g foe Past year. The House, after what it had dune " the army of late years. could not fail to tak e a lirel y hi t erest in the moral conduct and general beha viour of th e troops. He had not been able to collect all the its formation he had wished to obtain on this su b j ect ; but he might state to the House the result of h is io q uir its Ri te reference to the troops stationed in Irelan d durin g De months of June, July, August, and Septem ber lat. I, ll , t ing rhet time the ater portion of the ary in Ire -1,;11 Was either under canvass, exposed tom ery bad .eather, or huddled up in barracks, where very insuffi• e accommodation could be provided for large nurn "3 of men; and the troops were, therefore, exposed to priv ations w hi c h, if discontent had existed , would pro . L ab lY have led to its manifestation by acts of misconduct. 4 „Ple month of June there was in Ireland 28,324 men , s td Corporal punishment was awarded to 1 in 3,149 ; in p elt' the army consisted of 27 , 954 men, and corporal pu nishment was awarded to 1 in 3 , 106 ; in August there ser e 30,996 men. and corporal punishment was awarded 3 , 1 in 3,099; and in September the army nu mbered is men, and corporal punishment was awar ded to 1 Srl 2 ,403. During the whole year the punishment s in the were only in the proportion of 1 in 1,090 men; and Wi t h. held, ln the same period the total number o f courts-martial including regimental as well as general courts, was 'l l 'Y 1,228. He thought this statement was sufficient to a ncilv that the general good conduct of the army would s lot only realise the hopes of that House, but would give :aerie and the country reason to be proud that they had a body of men to whom they could so confidently look for Protection.---(Hear, hear.) The total number of men placed in confinement during the year ending the 31st of December, bad been 4,043; and the average number in confinement had been 784 ; and the total expense of I , ll ,eir,:maintenance had been 14 , 8011 ., which was more 'earl covered by the stoppage of their pay and beer raey during their imprisonment. Then with regar,d to k 6 conduct of the prisoners, the extent of serious offences if () Ught before the visitors might be judged of from ipunishments inflicted. He found that, for prison c uences, 21 prisoners bad '.been placed in solitary con 'OeMent, 1 in irons, and corporal punishment had been i t u k flicteel in 13 aggravated cases. He thought these fa cts bowed that their endeavours to improve the moral con tilt; en of the army had been success f u l, and should ien courage' them to persevere in the same c ourse.—(Hear, ea t) With regard to the education of the men, six tra ined schoolmasters were about to be sent from the e s tablishment originated by his Right Hon. Friend op °site to take charge of garrison schocls in England ; tirl hWould e hoped that many years would system of school train el for the whole army. The advantage of this arrange ''eat would be that such soldiers as c hose to receive Ins truction, and all the children of soldiers, would find, t i cenuoving to new quarters, that the change in the bbdlity of the school was not accompanied by any t lge in the system of education pursued. He wished, -fore he sat down, to say a few words in refutation Charges which had been brought against the army in ~tleral by a body of individua l s who had constituted them selves a Financial Reform Committee in Liverpool. *.*- oh (tlear, hear.) He wonld not have noticed any of these f - u stges it they had been founded in fact or in truth.- I „ .4e ar, hear, and cheers.) Ile did not object, and he was , e 're no persons in the army would object to the cloa.st 1 „„!Iltilay into the whole expenditure of that service; but t , , t " such a scrutiny the officers of the army had no -1.,r14 to do; it rested with the officials of the Government ot) 4 With the determination of the House. He would not to Jeot to any scrutiny into the expenditure of the army k ti ducted in a fair and proper manner; but , as the state pe,nts put forth by the Financial Committee of Liver ,vvere neither founded in fairness nor in justice 13`;Ileers)—and as they would tend not only to do infinite D 3l-I rY to the army, but to the very parties who were v ,titting forth those statements, he thought it necessary I , , ay a few words on the subject. The commit tee to to s ulch he alluded had attacked the system of clothing army ; but surely they might have attacked that ," Ystem without imputing motives—(Near)—to the colo :els whose duty it was to provide , the cl o thing for their ens not by any arrang ement of their own, but under a f l Yster a which had existed for up wards of 140 y ears.-- e le ar, bear.) The committee mi g ht certainly have f o cillired into this matter before insistin g that the co tr,4os and quarter -masters of regiments laid their heads the to change the pattern of the articles with which th e soldier was compelled to provide himself, in order T h at thei r own profits might be enhanced.—(Llear, hear.) 8 ,." 6 system clothing the army had been the subject of n ` v tra.l inquiries, and it the parties by whom those in b,lllLries had been conducted had not been able to recent tie,4,l a better plan than that now pursued, he did not d `nnk it very likely that the Liverpool Committee would 1 3 0 „ So. In 1783 the clothing system was inquired into th at the Commissioners of Public . Accounts, who stated ;',t they could not recolimend any change either in Pitt of e conomy, or of satisfaction to the soldier. In , 98 the subject was inquired into by the Finance Com ,-Ittee, end in 1808 by a military commission, with the ',toe result. In 1333 a Committee of that House, many „ °1 Whom he would venture to say were as prejudiced as 11 3' members of the Liverpool Fivancial Committee, rent into the consideration of the subject, and they agreed unanimously to a report, containing these pas• sages;-- It further a ppears that the wholesome cautions end C hecks il by w hi c h the supply of clothing by the colonels as been accompanied have invariably secured the h h 'llbfort and satisfaction of the soldier, and the complete eiency of this branch of the public service. T h e Com . i t 'lu lttee are not, therefore, prepared to suggest any tL enge in this long - established syste m, which, althou g h „` first it may appear anomalous, and to involve the oh 3e etinnable principle of giving profit to the colonels out t i l l moneys ostensibly voted for another purpose , secures t t resp ons ibility of those officers for the just and puce :al distribution of the clothing to the different regi- T e nt B dispersed as they are throughout various and chi -44t colonies, and which at the same time protects the publi c from the losses to which they would be exposed 11 9 the accumulation of stores of this description supplied es tablishments, th e management of public boards from extensive e ' a tablishments, s uperannuation allowances to those who ,2tlduet them, and from that multiplicity of accounts t& whom a transfer of the charge of this supply from those i" whom it is now vested into any other hands must tie produce." tin e thought then, that it was somewhat hard to charge d roll the "clothing colonels," as they were, mo;:t invi 111.`,'Ilily called, the responsibility of a system which they not themselves created—which had underrone had 3 tha n four scrutinies, and fur which no substitute t 8 bee n proposed.—(Hear, hear.) But he was sorry Observe that the Liverpool Committee did not confine e rnselves to these insinuations against the colonels; he ha d tc read their pamphlets with great care , and it seemed nini that their chief object was to run down the officer the opinion of the soldier.—(hear, hear.) The offi th-rs of hwasmy were held up to odium, and it was said ta -e etrrny a erected and maintained for the benefit of w `le aristocracy. Indeed the whole tone of the pamphlet tr , tt s , in his opinion, dangerous in the extreme, not only e s' the constitution of the army, but to the very exist of good order in this country.—(Hear, hear.) th , if the soldier should, from any circumstace, lose at confidence which he now justly repos n ed in his to Itithanding officer, and if he consequently lost his i e gard for discipline, he (Mr. Fox Meule) bad no hesi - Itien in saying that the army wonld at once be Com e an armed rabble.—(Hear, hear.) If this were „ ease ; who would be the first to suffer from such a ttate of things? Not the officers of the army, not the landed gentry, who lived on t h e i r estates i n t h e coun t r y ; but the inhabitants of towns. Instead of having or derly and well-behaved soldiers, who kept their hands f rom picking and stealing, and who offered no violence to their neighbours, walking through the streets, they l i etild have a disorder l y rabble, t hieving in one diree ttl";.oe, and assaulting in another, b and the peaceable intim, 'tents would rue the day when the Financial Reform Committee of Liverpo ol, or an y other Reform Col:mit t a"' began to hold up the officers of the army t o o di um reproach.—(Hear.) He did not make these obser ihationa f r om any objection to inquiry into the expendi_ f:rolof the public money, but becau se he thou g ht an y r ( lniry on this subject should be c arried on with due re td to th e f e elings of the officers o f the army, to the disciplin e of their men, and to the safety of the public ; and ee not in a manner which might ten d to destroy that isPect for authority and discipline witho ut which the t ittsh army, instead of being a boast an d p rotection, w ould 4, be a disgrace to this country.—(Hear.) he CHAIRMAN then read the first vote , for 103.254 me nto constitute the land forces of the United Kingdom. Lord DRUMLANRIG said, he thought the House wweald agree with him that the mortality at Barbadoes a 8 00 light cage. Out of 13 officers who accompanied th eh 66th Regiment only two had escaped the fever, seven th 4 d died, and four had been at the point of death. The o 'rtality in the 72d Regiment was quite as bad, and still tontinued. He was glad to hear that a new station was be erected for troops in Barbadoes. The pres e nt bar to t i t ts at St. Anne's were moat defective in accommoda t rt .. Th e barracks were built in a square, so that there oa ld never be a free current of air; and t h ey adjoined a R 1/,! v e'Fard, from which there was a most off ensive smell. " officer had more than one room, and from 80 to 90 me n were crammed together in one apartment. He hoped that Assistant-Surgeon Simpson's letter to Dr. Davy, h: medical superintendent, would be produced, because err informed that at least 40 men died before orders e l : 3 given to encamp the regiment. The expenses in -I:),'red by the officers had arisen from their having the th t raeks when the fever broke out, and hiring houses at tO5 Cost of 71. or Si. a month. 10 : 41 '. HUME was gratified to find that gradual pro- Our"swas being made in ameliorating the cDnditiun of heard in that House of the brutal treatmtlnt to which ldi e la o , h re were subjected,—of one man receiving 1,000 ", or mor e , that until they treated men better they mu st i l. not expect better conduct; and now that corporal pt hi lizent was almost entirely abolished, they found ;he conduct of soldiers was grea'ly improved.—(llear, hear.) He hoped tee Secretary at War would persevere in his entleavour3 to promote the c,.millort of tot' troops; and he (Mr. lit me) wo:ild recon,m, - nd that pro visi ? ri siould be merle in coneexion with all barracks tor elieblitig the men to empley their spare time in amuse ments or he-dthiul exercise, He hoped his Right Hon. Friend would persevere in providing room and means in all barracks to enable the men to improve themselves; for he understood from offieers that, when such means ex isted, there was always a certain numb r of men in every company taking advantege of them, nod gradu ally inducing otleers, by their example, to abandon habits of idleness. lie should not grudge the trifling, expense neceseary for this object, being convinced that tale greeter efficiency of the mesa would more than on letaintes! any t.uFa of money expensierl in promoting their health and morel;.—(Hear, Bear.) With respect to the Liverpool Association, he thought his Right Hon. Friend might have omitted his allusions to that body. lie (Mr. Hume) was mot a member of that association only be cause he resided at a deitance, and had laid doss n a rule to confine hims-lf within whet he called his own legiti mate limits.—(Leughtrr.) lie thought the Liverpool Association had done good service in opening the eyes of the country to abuses in regard to the national establish ments. He, had often heard it remarked that that man was a benefactor to his country who made two blades of gra-s grow where only one grew before ; end so he thought he was a national benefactor who could melee in future 51. go as far as 101. dial at present.—(Elear, and laughter.) The charge against the Liverpool Associa tion was that they had accused the colonels of regiments of being teilors. Mr. F. MAULE.—The charge against the Liverpool Association is that they accused the colonels of com bining with the quarter-masters for the purpose of cheating the soldiers.—(Hear.) Mr. HUME admitted that that was a great error, and most unjust accusation.—(Hear.) This he knew from the investigation before the Committee of 1833, for which be moved; but at the same time he must observe that at that period the artillery were clothed better than the line (though the clothing of the latter had improved since the sitting of that Committee), and no colonel was connected with the clothing of the artil lery in the same way as in the line. While willing to accord to colonels of the line all that their rank and station entitled them to, he still retained his opinion, that connecting the colonels with the clothing of the men was placing the former in an anomalous situation, and that it would be better net to afford even el pretence for charges such as the Right Honourable Gentleman had alluded to.—(Hear, hear.) He thought it, therefore, hard that a severe charge should have been made against the Liverpool Assocation for an error into which they might have been led in consequence of the anoma lous pcsition in which the colonels were placed. The Liverpool Association would do no evil if they con fined themselves to the truth—(Hear, hear)—and to official documents, as they were now doing. They would then be conferring on the country good service, and he would not quarrel with them for one or two ac cidental errors. With regard to the health of the army, he recollected that when, many years ago, he proposed that statistics on the :subject should be communi cated to Parliament, he was laughed at by the greater part of the military men in the House; but now he trusted that those statistics to which the Right Hon. Gentleman had referred, and to the preparation of which Colonel Tulloch had devoted his talents, would be laid before the House ; for he was certain that they would be found extremely useful. With regard to the present estimates, he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman bad laid them before the House in a very clear and distinct manner, and had candidly stated the reasons why the proposed large military establishment wa s t o b e maintained. One of these reasons consisted in the aspect of affairs abroad.—(Hear.) Now, though he (Mr. Hume) was anxious to see our troops effec tive and our military establishment adequ a te, he was against maintaining an excessive establishment, which drined the resources of the country, and was only re quired for the purpose of med,iling with the affairs of other nations. Had this country abstained from inter ference in the affairs of other nations, the people would have been saved from an addition of debt amounting to between 600,000.0001., and 700,000,0001.; and, conse quently, no declaration gave greater satisfaction than that of Lord Grey, in 1830, that his Government would act on the principle of non-intervention. He could not understand why we should put ourselves to so great an expense by maintaining an exorbitant military establish ment, for the purpose of enabling us to iuterfore abroad, and preventing tue people there settling their own affairs as they pleased.—(Hear, hear.) Fer this reason he objected to the number of men now proposed to be voted. Jr it were said that the proposed amount must be kept up to enable us to provide for our colonies, ho would ask where was the country which would attempt to interfere with any of our colonies? England must be low and weak indeed before any nation would dare to do so; and, consequently, he did not see that the troops of this country were now wanted in the colonies. Canada Lad now a responsible Governnae , t, and yet in British North Ascetics no less than 6,000 or 8,000 troops were maintained, together with accompanying artillery, sappers, miners, and com - miseariat, for a certain number of the line not only re quired an expenc iture on their own account, but always induced a great additional expense for other companies attached to them In these colonies why should not the militia be sufficient for the preservation of tranquillity ? Or, if that body were not sufficient for the purpose, let the colonies maintain a police at their own expense. Were riot Van Diemen s Land and New South Wales capable of governinL themselves, if we would only allow them, and lock the doors of the Colonial-office ? The Right Ilonottrabl9 Gentleman might allude to Ceelon, but what I. d to the war ? The misconduct of the Government ; and if we would send out men utterly incapable, and assist them with the mischievous meddling of the Colonial-office, could we wonder that war was the result ? Take the Cape of Good Hope and New Zealand ; now that matters were settled, why should the people of England, borne down as they were by various circumstances and changes, be required to maintaln such large military establishments? It Par liament would take from Ministers their power of ship ping off thousands of our countrymen to support good or bad government in the colonies, as might happen, it would be doing a great kindness to the Ministry, placing them in a situation to avoid the complaints at present made.—(Hear, and a laugh.) With regard to the re serve, the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. F. Maule) had made too much of that. But to come to the subject of the force at home; was it not a matter of serious consi deration that the House should be told by the Govern ment that it was necessary to maintain 20,000 men more than we had in 1839 at home, for fear of the people? He (Mr. Hume) had always considered England a country governed by civilians, and proud of the boast of Elizabeth, when asked where were her guards. t'Look around; every subject I have is my guard." Now we were changing our tone, and keeping 50,000 soldiers iu these islands. No class was more interested in maintaining the public peace than the working man, for he must be the first and greatest sufferer in case of disturbance; and if so large a force was required to preserve peace at home, it was high time to ascertain what were the causes of discontent that ren dered it necessary.—(Hear.) From the time of the Duke of York becoming Commander-in-Chief this country lost much of its civil character; we had had too mossy ealdiers ; and the magistrates were too fond of sending for troops in case of any disturbance, instead of trusting to the civil power. *Souse magistrates, if a cat disturbed a heap of straw, were for sanding for a troop of soldiers.—(Laughter.) The affair at Leeds had been inentiened; and so this large military force was to be kept up from fear of men asking for their rights!—(ilear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. F. Maule), indeed, had no power to refuse these requests ler military aid--it rested with the Home-office; but lit him tell the Home Secretary, when he came in, or any other of the Ministers—none of them were ire the House —that it would be much better to yield to ::the reason able wishes of the mass of the people than to maintain a force to keep them quiet—to make them contented, and then the posse cemitatus would suffice to preserve the peace.—(Hear, hear.) Why, last year we had a force of above 185,000 armed men, and, with the police, upwards of 200,000. Surely we were losing our senses, fright ened at our own shadows, and bearing down ourselves with the load of military expense. Let it not be said that he (Mr. Hume) was proposing too large a reduction; the average number of men voted for the army in the three years 1833 to 1836 was 86,547, and the force was found sufficient to maintain peace and quietness at home and abroad. He thought he had made out a strong case. Let lion. Gentlemen opposite support him, and he would make a reduction that would include malt-tax, hop-duty, bricks, soap, window, paper duty, some 9,950,000/.; in fact, we might save 11,000,0001 with great ease, and be in perfect security. The Hon. Gen denary' concluded by moving that the number of men should be reduced to 89,000. The question having been put, Mr. 11. DRUMMOND thought that as none of her Majesty's Ministers were present to give their opinions to the House—and no doubt they were discussing these matters over a cool bottle—(A laugh)—such humble Members as himself might as well have a little conversa tion on the subject of the estimates. The Hon. Gentle man the Member for Montrose said he thought there ought to be a great reduction in our military establish ments, and he complained that there was much extrava gance shown in all these matters. Now undoubtedly thero was a great expenditure und er thi s h ea d ; b ut h e though!, it was evident that the more we increased in trade, in manufactures , and p o p u l a ti on , t h e more we mustincrease in a force of some kind, and he did not much care whether that force appeared in blue coats or in red.—(Hear, hear.) It was not the country boobies (as the country gentlemen might perhaps be called on the other side) who caused this increase, but it was the mayors of enlightened town consti tuencies in the manufacturing districts who called meetings with one hand, and with the other applied for military aid to ke e p them in order—(A laugh)—for just in proportion as these merchants anti manufacturers were cowards the one minute they were bullies the other. —(A laugh.) They were the people who led us into war in China and South America, as the House had heard the other night, and n ow the y turned tail upon her Majesty's Government, and charged it with having incurred the expense.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Now he thought that if they entered into war they should not come out of it till they had c onquered.—(Hear.) Either they should not begin to fight at all, or they should fight if it was necessary till they were dead. — (Hear, hear, and laughter.) They were bound to stand upon tee ground they had taken up tid they could get is ell out of it, and then they were not to grudge the ex penses incurred by the Government.--(Hear.) Now, as regarded the artillery, it had been complained of that we had a much greater outlay for artillerymen than we had during the war. Unquestionably it was so ; but there was not a man, even the lowest judge in military matters, who did not coness that the arm in which we were most inferior during the war was the artillery.— (Hear, hear.) And then it must be remembered that it was impossible to find this arm in time of war, but by long previous service. But they were told that thee things were only said on the word of military men; that these military men were not proper judges how to de fend the country, and that civilians were the only good judges on such a :mteter. Now, this folksy ley at the bottom of the whole question, and it was therefore well to examine it a little. It appeared to him that it was a burlesque of the old saying, " Who drives fat oxen should himself be fat."—(A laugh.) In other words, " Who pays a general must himself be a general."—(A Nigh.) It was gravely maintained by the Hon. Gentleman the Member for the West Riding that it was a question for the tax-payers, and not the military, to decide what was the pro portion of men necessary for the defence of the country.—(Hear.) Why, if Gentlenr n opposite did not see the absurdity of such an ergument, he hoped the country would. Ho would tell them that they were not competent judges of this matter. What would they think if a party of general officers were to go to Mon , chesier to iestruct them how to make cotton twist?— ("Hear. hear," and a laugh.) Would they not answer that they were a set of meddling fools? On the same principle, he held that Gentlemen in that House were going beyond their borders, that they were presuming too far when they entered upon a matter of which they were essentially, and necessarily, and naturally not judges.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman, the Mem ber for the West Riding, however, said, " You only are the judges—take care, therefore, how you perform your duty; you arc sent here to determine upon all these,eco nomical questions." Now they might sit in that House as judges, but then there were among them certain gen tlemen who had been called to the particular business of doing duty in the service of the Crown. These Gentle man were made acquainted with the affairs of all the va ried Governments of Europe, and were capable of knowing their objects and intentions. Looking, then, at the general state of Europe, they might say that they required a certain number of soldiers to carry on the business of their Government; but Hon. Gentlemen opposite, having no means of know ing these matters, exclaimed, " Oh, the Government is wrong; they do not know what is required for the in• terests of the country; we alone know what number of men are required."—(Hear, hear.) Now he held that, as judges of the case before them, they had nothing to do but to decide according to the opinion of her Majesty's Government, who only could know what the circum stances of the country required.—(Bear, hear.) It ap peared to him that on such a question they were all equally stupid—(A. laugh)—and that they ought to put confidence in those persons who must, of necessity, be better informed that the Gentlemen seated on the other side.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had spoken of the evidence given by the late First Lord of the Ad miralty before the Committee as embracing " a vague generality," because he said the reasons for preferring a certain number of sailors and soldiers were to be con sidered, not with reference to the year 1835, but to the general state of Europe. Now, he looked upon that not as a " vague generality," but as common sense; and he must say, that of all persons in the world, the Man chester gentlemen had given proof of their utter incompetence to give reasons drawn from the general state of Europe.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that a more upright man or one who would give more satis factory testimony regarding what he saw or heard did not exist than the Hon. Member for the West Riding; but they must recollect also that there was not a man in the country who stood convicted of being so utterly unable to give an accurate opinion of the state of Europe as the Hon. Gentleman was.—(A laugh.) No man had been so unfortunate in his prophecies—none had ever been so completely refuted by the events.—(Hear, hear.) He spoke of our having nearest us peaceable and friendly neighbours ;—why, he might go to the Zoological-gar dens, and, because he saw the tigers lying quietly in their lairs, he might speak of them as peaceable and harmless animals; and perhaps he might amuse himself with the antics of the monkeys. But let them be set loose, and he would find what altered creatures both tigers and monkeys would become.—(A laugh.) In Francs the whole nation to a man had been rendered able to express their opinions, and they had just run mad after the ghost of a grey greatcoat and a very little hat.—(A laugh.) ,They had just given to the world the information that the tirne.whea they were happiest was not a time of free trade, but when they were under the Berlin and Milan decrees; that the time they were look ing beck to with the greatest delight was when they were under an absolute Emperor, and that the thing they were aspiring to again was another thirty years of war with England.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. M. GIBSON, in reference to what had fallen from the lion. Gentleman opposite, would admit that, if he wanted to know how to deal with a regiment when it was broueht into the field, he would apply to a military officer; and if he wanted to know how a ship was to be kept away from a lee shore, or handled in battle, he would apply.to a professional man, but he would not apply to a 'professional man on matters of general policy, or as to what was necessary for the safety of the country.—(Hear, hear.) He declined altogether setting up military and naval men as a sort of independe n t go vernment in the state.—(Hear, hear.) On the coutrary, he regarded them as public servants, and not as the only persons to be consulted as to the number of men the establishments of the country required. There were always complaints of the great difficulty which Govern went felt in resisting the demands of the army, &c., for grants, and it itwere not for what were called the gen tlemen of the Manchester school, those appeals would become altogether irresistible. He would support the motion of the lion. Member for Montrose, mainly be cause_ no reason had been shown for keeping so large it force in our colonies. As to the Committee - appomted to inquire into the condition of the services, ho could not help expressing a wish that they had been em powered to inquire into the amount of the forces re quired, 51 that they might have the whole question thus brought before thom.—(llear, hear.) Mr. J. O'CONNELL would promise the Government that if they brought in measures to meet the just de mands of Ireland, they would be able to dispense with three-fourths of the military now in that country. Mr. W. P. WOOD, after the lecture read to the House by the Hon. Member oppoeite (\lr. Drummond) did not rise to speak on this subject without some apprehensions. His principal reason for doing so, however, was to dis charge a duty to his constituents, from 1,250 of whom he presented a petition on this subject last session. That petition was signed, among others, by Mr. Caldwell, who had had great experience in the recruiting service; and it suggested to the House to employ the militia staff for the purpose of recruiting the army, to form the recruits into special corps similar to those of the pensioners, to be drafted off into the different regiments when ne cessary, and that in the meantime they might be em ployed doing the same duty as pensioners. Such was the opinion expressed in that petition, and he understood the plan had been approved of by experienced officers. It always appeared to him that there were no debates in that House so unsatisfactory as the debates on the estimates. They were generally of a stereotyped character.—(Hear.) A. certain number of gentlemen got up and said they sup ported the Gorernment because it had the responsibility of administering the affairs of the country. On the other hand, in the same stereotyped term the Government came forward and said none of the responsibility was to be thrown upon them; that every vote was agreed to by the House; and that they were not to be held answerable for it. Now, bath these propositions could not be correct; and, hence the unsatisfactory character of these debates. As to professional men tieing the only judges, he would ad mit that the lion. Gentlemaa (Mr. Drummond) would be correct if the question was ae to how troops were to be occupied in the field. They were called upon to vote 27,000 men more than in 1835, 1836, and 1837; in addi tion to which there was a force of 15,000 pensioners, who did not exist in those years, besides a large increase of police in this country and the constabulary of Ireland. These were matters upon which the House might lairly he deemed competent to form an opinion. It was obvious too, that whenever the cause of increase of force had ceased to exist they never heard of any reduction. This was a tact which naturally struck the most common understanding. Another form which these stereotyped debates assumed was this:—They were told they were now at peace with all the world; but they must remember the only way to preserve that peace was to be well armed. Of course they ought to be effi ciently armed; but why, in order to be so, was it ne cessary to have 27,000 men more now than at ally former period? And were there not other measures which might make them more likely to be at peace besides being prepared for war? The sinews of war were not men only, but money also. Now last year there was a deficiency of something like 2,000,0001., and this year we were told that we should barely meet our expenses. Were we not, then, by maintaining this large military establishment, incurring another, that of being unable from our financial resources to meet the exigency of a war? Let them remember the breaking down of the efforts of the Minister to increase the income-tax. From the earliest records it would be found that every revolution had arisen from the people being overbur dened by taxation. There had been one novelty introduced into this debate—it had been said that although the Government had been extravagant, it had not been worse than many railway companies.— (Laughter.) If they analyzed more strictly the conduct of the railway directors, he believed it would be found that they had been influenced by an insane apprehension of foreign invasion, by competing companies—and in order to resist them they had expended all their re sources. So we, from as ill-founded an apprehension of foreign invasion, were about to waste all our resources. But from what quarter was this invasion to be feared? From France, and France only. He regretted to hear the Hon. Member (Mr. Drummond) express his fear of a French invasion; and equally did he regret to hear him draw a contrast between what he called the Man chester school—meaning the manufacturing interest— and the agricultural community. If there was any dan ger more to be feared than another in this country, it was an attempt to divide the people into distinct and con flicting classes.—(Hear.) On a late occasion—and he felt it most deeply—a bitter and most marked division was made, as between class and class—which, if it were to suc ceed, would be most fetal to socit ty, and resolve it into a state of ruin and confusion. No country could prosper with a landed, a commercial, and a manufacturing popu lation not acting in unison one with another. An import tent fact had been communicated to him by a French gentleman long resident in this country in connexion with the French diplomatic department. He stated as a proof of the indisposition of the French people to go to war, that at the end of the seventeen years of Louis Philippe's reign the price of a substitute for the con scription was double that which had to be paid at the be ginning of his reign. Unfortunately we heel gone too far in regarding France our natural enemy. Those who lived neareA to us were, he conceived, naturally our friends, neighbours, and allies. Fe belonged neither to the Manchester school nor to the Liverpool Finance As. aviation ; but certainly he did look forward to com merce as the means of promoting general peace through out Early; though he did not regard any other inte rest inimical to peace ; and least of all did ho look upon France as our enemy. He trusted she never would be. —(Cheers.) Ile re membered being especially pleased with some fine lines of our admirable poet Shakspere, waich might be most aperoPriately quoted in relation to this subject : " God, the best maker of all marriages, Combine your hearts in one, your realms in one! As man and wife, being two, are one in love, So be there 'twixt your kingdoms such a spousal That never may ill office, or fell jealousy, Which troubles oft the bed of blessed marriage, Thrust in between the pactions of these kingdoms, To make divorce of their incorporate league; That English may as French, French Englishmen, Receive each other! God speak this Amen!" —(Cheers.) Mr. HENRY DRUMMOND, in explanation, said that he did not intend to express any apprehension of the probability of a French invasion; nor had he drawn any contrast between the. manufacturing and agricultural interests. He felt convinced that it would be a very great evil if any su •h contrast existed. Mr. V. SMITH believed it was the wish of her Majesty's Ministers that the estimates should be dis cussed by the House ; for all the applications made to them were for an increase of the estimates, and unless they could reply that any proposal of that tendency would meet with opposition in the House of Commons, they were left entirely without any answer to such &ap plications. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. F. Matile) had laid down the question of colonial protection most broadly, as if any amount of military expense might be justified upon that ground. But colonial protection stood upon different feting from wl at it formerly did. Having applied the doctrine of Ire.. trade to your colonies, there no longer existed the necessity of extending mili tary protection to those colonies ou commercial grounds. Still he (Mr. V. Sn ith) considered it necessary to main tain garrisons in some of the colonies for the purposes of war, and the question was. what were the cektpliein which such garrisons should be maintained ? The ere bound, he conceived, to protect those that were planted by British subjects from invasion and from the incursions of the aborigines; but this obligation ceased as soon as the colonists were able to protect themselves. In rela tion to our great North American provinces, there oc curred a question which it was the duty of Ministers seriously to consider. The powers of self-government had been conferred upon them, ned from that moment the necessity of extending protection to them ceased. Whenever circumstances arose —and it was a case which we must contemplate—which should place those pro vinces in antagonism with this country, we must look forward to the question of separation.—(H ear, hear.) He would therefore advise the Government to anticipate that event, by adopting measures that should make the sepa ration an amicable one, and not, the result of force. Were the Canadas to be invaded by the United States it would be impossible for this country to send out troops to protect them. The Colonial Minister should, there fore look forward to this question. At present the colo nists of Now Zealand required protection against the aboriginal inhabitants, but that was not the case with Australia. The Right Hon. Gentleman expressed his disapproval of sending convicts to our colonies, espe cially to those colonies to which honest and pure-minded men were invited to emigrate. He then adverted to the want of information by the House on all colonial sub jects until very heavy expenses were incurred. Such was the case in the instance of the Kafir war; so, also, with regard to the extension of the colony of Natal, end to the establishment of a colonial Government in the island of Labuan, under Sir James Brooke. There were only two cures for these things; the one was to require the colonists to protect themselves, and the other was that her Majesty should be advised by her Ministers, whenever she intended to extend her colonial territories or to found new colonies, to send down a message to Parliament stating that such things were about to be done, and setting forth how much m one y woul d be re quired to carry them into execution. Considerin g , how ever, that due notice should be g iven to those colo n i es which were hereafter to protect themselves, before re quiring them to do so, he could nut vote for the amend ment now proposed. Mr. RICE agreed with much that had fallen from the Right Hon. Member fur Northampton (Mr. V. Smith) with respect to self-government in the colonies. But it ought not to be forgotten that the whole tendency of the policy of Government was to give the colonies self government.—(Hear, hear.) H e (Mr. Rice) believed that when that system was carried out the House would not need to vote the same number of men as at present for the purpose of protecting the colonies. But the House must decide that great question first.—(hear, hear.) He assured the Hon. Member for Montrose that military gentlemen were as anxious for all practicable reduction in the expenses of the army as the Hon. Gen tleman himself was ; but he (Mr. Rice) for one would not, for the sake of giving a popular vote, vote for a re duction which he knew to be impracticable. He felt in the same way with reference to the blockade on the coast of Africa. He was favourable to the removal of that blockade, and, if the Government were not able to give a better reason for its continuance than he had yet heard, he was prepared to vote against it; but he was not prepared to vote for a reduction of the number of men in the navy if it could be shown that the Government were called upon by the existing state of things to maintain a force there. When these questions were settled the num ber of men both in the army and navy might probably be safely reduced. But until they were settled he would not vote for a reduction. Captain BOLI)ERO remarked, that the Right Hon. Member for Northampton had talked of the necessity of a reduction of the military torte in the colonies; but what was the actual condition of the colonies at this mo ment? Could C..iylon do without troosia?—alear, hear.) Could it be pretended that the West Indies cou'd do without troops ;n their present diecontented state, or that they would be justified in withdrawing their troops too,f r o t f. h t e he C c a, o n t i:da dit s? ioT7 ( c,f ll t e h s, hear.) e r Cape They of Good ar a l % i c o e. ll a T w h a e r s e ,; things arose from the system of mis-government which prevailed throughout our whole colonies.—(Hear, hear.) If the Government changed their system, and should succeed in making the people contented and satisfied, he admitted that then they might safely withdraw a large body of these troops.—(Hear, hear.) But there were cer tain colonies in which they were compelled to keep a large force. The events that were occurring in Europe compelled them to do it. Take Gibraltar, for example, or Malta, in both of which places we were obliged to have large forces.—(Hear.) Then there were the Greek islands. We were put in possession of the lonian islands by the Greeks themselves, upon the understanding that we should give them military protection, and, having got possession of those islands upon that understanding, we could not now withdraw our promised protection without a breach of faith.—(Hear, hear.) If the amendment of the Hon. Member for Montrose were carried, what would be the result? The scale which had been laid down with respect to the length of colonial service would have to be altered. Hitherto, the colonial duty had pressed upon our troops in a most unpardonable and unwarrantable manner. He knew a regiment that had been 23 years in the East Indies; it was then 13 years at the Cape and Mauritius, and had been nine years in Eneland. It was at present, however, under orders to return to the East Indies, where it would have to remain for 15 years. So that out of 60 years it would only have spent nine y ear s in England. That was our colonial system. A new regulation had been made, limiting the length of service in our colonies; but it -the Hon. Member's amendment were carded it would be impossible to carry that regulation into effect. It would therefore occasion a breach of feels with the soldier.—(Hear, hear.) The I-lon. and Learned Member for the city of Oxford had objected to class legislation. No man disliked class legislation more than himself (Captain Boldero), but he would ask the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had begun it? Sir W. MOLESWORTH said that his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose had proposed to return to the establishment of 1835, and to make a reduction of 14,000 men in the force of the army. Could this reduct ion be made without injury to the inter es t s of the empire? Were the number of soldiers exces s i ve either at home or abroad? At home the force wa s 61,000, or 11,5 00 men more than in 1835. Was that force t oo great? When he remembered the events of last year in Ireland; when he considered that they had to provide reliefs and reinforce ments for 28,000 troops in India, and to supply the places of those brave men who had been led on to unne cessary slaughter by rash and incompetent generals; when he considered that they had likewise to provide reliefs for 32,000 British troops in the colonies; that the services of those troops were of' the most arduous and disagreeable kind; for instance, bush fighting and cattle driving at the Cape, guarding convicts in Australia, and combating sa vages in New Zealand. When he considered that some of the se troo p s w ere sta , tinned amidst the snows of Canada, and others were broiling in the Went Indies, he m ust acknowled ge th a t it would be cruel and unjust to comp el these men to pass more than halt their lives in such inglorious services.— (Hear, hear.) He could not, therefore, at present vote for a reduction of the military force at home, which would tend to the prolongation of t he p eriod of militar y services i n the colonies.—(Hear , hear. ) He should, However, vote for a reduction of the force in the colonies, othnetphreesgernotunfdorteheatwiofutlhd be eywaerareppier.fr Hear, hear.) Atly governed h a lf present the force in the colonies consisted of 32,000 2,500 men on the establishment anß erritiisnhteraosoeps, of ab andl o o u ,o t 00 men of colonial corps, making in all 42,000 men , exc lusive of arti ller y and engineers, of 1835. These troops, including artillery, &c., cost the country about 2,500,0001. a year.— (Hear.) He should first propose to reduce the 'ore° on our military stations, which . amounted to abo u t 22,000 men. H e ,should begin with withdrawi ng t h e troops fro m the lonian Islands. lie denied th a t G reat Britain was bo un d e ither by trea ties with the great p powers of Europe, or by conve ntion with the lonian States to keep any specific number of troops in those islands. But he considered that t he lonian States were bound by convention to pay the expenses of all B r i t i s h had troop b t e i e n n ab ote o x u c t ee t d h i e ng av t e h rg eaneunmubmebrorofo3f,OtOroOomees in those. which islands. It would have been impossible for the lonian States to fu' 01 this agreement. It would have required a larger suns than their whole revenue. Time after time fresh agreements h a d been made with the m for smaller and smaller contributions on acc ount of mi litary protec tion ; those agreements had nev er been ful filled for any considerable period of tirce.—(near, hear.) At present they were upwards of 200, 0001 . in arre ar ; it was but fair, however, to state that they had paid since 1816 not less than 800,0001. for military protection, a sum enor mous in proportiun to the population of these islands, which did net exceed 220,000; enormous in proportion to their revenue, which amounted to about 150,0001. a-year, In addition to that 800,0001. Great Britain had expend e d since 1816 at least 4,000,0001. on these islands, to which the export trade did not exceed 95,0001. a year on the average of the last twenty years. If, instead of annually expending 120,0001. a year on troops for those islands, that money bad been annually laid by and permitted to accumulate, by this time the accumulations weuld have been sufficient to pay the expense of conquering those i islands twenty times over, if it were necessary to do 59. But the best mode for a Government to lay money by was to leave it to fructify in the pockets of the people by diminishing taxation.—(lioar, hear.) Therefore, he proposed to e - %ithdra w the trio s from the lonian Islands and to exempt the States from %ny further contribution (fl account of military prot,ction; for so doing they would bless that house, nod, by so doing, that House might reduce 3,000 men. Next he proposed a reduction in the military force at the Cape of Good Hope: the year before last that force consisted of nine regi- wilts; last year it consisted of six regiments, in ail above 5,000 men, including a colonial corps, but exclusive of artillery and erginsers. He doubted whether such a force, including artillery, &c.. could be maintained at the Cape for less than 500,0001. a year. He acknowledged at once that if the British empire in South Africa was to be maintained according to the boundaries fixed by Sir H. Smith, and those boundaries wire to be protected azainst the ineursionr, of savages, then ere long twice 5,000 solliers and an annual expen diture of 1,000,0001. sterling would be required. But he proposed to withdraw the British troops; to let the Boers take care of themselves; to let the colonists ma nage their own affairs; and merely to keep a garrison of 1,000 men at Cape Town. He warned the House that if they did not follow his advice they would have, in ad- dition to the ordinary military expenditure of about half a million a year, to vote ever ; few years a few millions on account of Kafir and Zoolah wars. He therefore proposed to make a reduction of 4,000 men in the mili tary force of the Cape of Good Hope.—(Hear, hear.) Next, with regard to Ceylon. At present the military force in that colony amounted to 4,000 men, including colonial corps. A portion of the expense of that force had been defrayed by the colony—a burden they were anxious to transfer to the Imperial Treasury. Without doubt, if that colony continued to be adminis tered as it had been by- the Colonial-office, 4,000 troops were not too many to keep down the natives; and this country must make up its mind to pay the whole ex pense of those troops. Now, he must reluctantly confess that, after the signal failure of so distinguished and en lightened a statesman as the present Secretary of State for the Colonies, there could be no hope that Ceylon _ . would ever be well governed by the Colonial-office. He therefore proposed to transfer it, and the payment of the troops, to the East India Company; and by so doing he would give the means of reducing the vote before the House by another 4,000 men.—(Hear, hear.) Thus by withdrawing 3,000 men from the lonian Islands, 4,000 from the Cape, and transfering the 4,000 men of Ceylon to the East India Company, he would effect a reduction in the force on the military stations to the amount of 11,000 men. Next, with regard to the commercial colonies. He agreed with his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose, in asking where was the use of 9,000 men in North America, 6,000 of whom were in the Canadas ? These troops cost the country about 700,000/ a year. Now, since the establishment of re sponsible government the Canadas had become virtually independent. It seemed to him to be as absurd to pay for troops in the virtually independent colony of Canada as it would be to pay the military establishments of the independent colony of the United States.—(Hear, hear.) He should propose, however, for the present to keep garrisons at Quebec and Halifax, and would therefore merely propose a reduction of 5,000 in the military force of the North American colonies.—(Hear.) Of the West Indies, which contained 6,000 troops, he should say nothing at present. He had proposed last year to reduce the force in those colonies by 3,000 men ; and he still held the opinion that such a reduction ought to be made. Lastly, in Australia and New Zealand there were about 5,000 troops. Not one soldier was required in Australia, except on account of convicts. There was literally no one to fight with. It might be true that, in consequence of Colonial-office mismanagement, troops might for some time longer be required in New Zea hnd ; and on this account chiefly he should propose to leave 3,000 men in the Australian colonies.—(Hear, hear.) Thus he believed that, without any detriment to the real interests of the empire, the force in the colo nies might be reduced from 42,000 men to less than 22,000, with a saying to the empire in military expen diture alone of above 1,000,0001. a year. If this reduction were made in the force on foreign stations, then, as the number of troops to be retained would be much dimi nished, the question might be entertained of reducing the military force at home. He would not trouble the House with inquiring at present to what extent that force might then be reduced, but he would con clude with saying that, for the reasons which he had stated, he would cordially vote for the motion of his Hon. Friend. Mr. W. S. CRAWFORD would not go into the ques tion respecting the reduction of troops in the colonies; but he would support the motion of his Hon. Friend the Nlember for Montrose, on the ground that the number of troops at present-maintained in the United Kingdom was unnecessary and improper. He understood the Secretary at War to say that 52,000 men were required to protect the United Kingdom. In his (Mr. Crawford's) view, it was inconsistent with a free constitution that a standing army of that extent should be maintained to keep in subjection a free people. It seemed to him a proof of misgovernment.—(Hear.) If they extended the franchise and pursued a system of . just legislation, then the army might be reduced, but all efforts in that direc tion would be vain till the people regarded the Govern ment not as their oppressors, but as their friends. Mr. COBDEN said he had been delighted to hear the tendency of the remarks of Honourable Members during the discussion, and by the constant allusion~ which had been mad, to the colonies, fur he believed they were the pivot on which the whole system ot' re trenchtnent turned. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary-at-War had alluded to something he (Mr. Cob den) had stated on a former occasion with resptet to our troops in Canads. What ho said was, that beforo the rebellion in that colony we had only 4,000 men there, but that they had been augmented on the breaking cut of the rebellion, and, as had ucc , :rted in all similar c ices, had not since been reduced. Their numbers were iiiet double now of what they had been before the rebellion, and that was a sufficient argument to show that in all cases where an augmentation of cur establishment took place by sea or by land, we, never went back to the numbers before the augmentation became neces sary. They were told that the troops were rt quired on account of our domestic condition. He must confess he had heard with very great regret the remarks of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary-at •War, with respect to the necessity of keeping troops at home for the purpose of keeping down the people. That was the first time such an object had ever been avowed by any member of any Government, for it had hitherto been always denied that troops were kept to repress the people.—(Oh, oh.) It was a very alarming and melan choly state of things that it should ,be avowed in 1849 that we kept up a large force to keep down the people of England —Englishmen, who had been always considered peculiarly suited for self-government here or abroad, and who had always claimed the principle of being governed by the civil power.—(Cries of " Oh,oh!") The Right llonourable Gentleman distinctly avowed that object. He said it was for the puipose of keeping peace among the people. Some remarks had been made as to the state of the manufacturing towns. He admitted that the mayors and magistrates of some large towns had sent for some troops last year, but there must be some fault in the system when such a rein forcement to the civil power was called for. He thought, on behalf of the middle classes, that those who were responsible for the government of the country should introduce some large measure with respect to the working classes, to bring the two into harmony, and that they should, by bringing the latter within the pale of the constitution, take away the disaffection and discon tent which induced the necessity for employing troops. With respect to the immediate vote before the House, it must be borne in mind that troops had become really fetich more efficient than they had been a few years ago. A great authority—General Gordon—stated to the Committee of 1844 that one thousand men could be sent from London to Manchester in nine hours, and would arrive there fresh as when they started; whereas, before the introduction of railways, they would have taken 17 days for the journey, and would have arrived fatigued and exhausted. Though he did not admit the necessity of repressing the people by armed men, railways had given tenfold force to their military establishments, and if they were necessary the number of men might be reduced, and yet the same amount of force be available. He maintained, howevei, that in large or small towns peace might be maintained by the civil power, if Government would sanction a mode by which an organized body—not of military or of national guards—but of special constables, could be al ways in readiness to assist the magistrates. Why not imitate America? New York was larger than Liverpool, and yet there were neither soldiers nor barracks there, and the peace was kept by the police. There was a fluctuating population of English, Irish, and foreigners, and he contended that what could be done at New York with Englishmen could be done with English men at home. The Honourable Member for West Surrey (Mr. Drummond) had made some remarks which he would not have referred to but that they might pro duce ill feelings elsewhere. The Hon. Member had , called the French tigers and monkeys, fit for exhibition ninot Zoologicalkt henOw th nt t he Gardens.iion. Gentleman Perhaps the French a Fren p e r h ivi m le i g g e h d t Member of the House, and that ho was so fickle in his aversions and likings that they might find him next week calling them doves and lambs. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War referred to the state of the continent as a reason for a large standing army. lie would admit, if the Right Hon. Gentleman pleased, that the French and the other continental cations were going to fight with each other. But that was not the question for us to consider with respect to our forces. What we had to ask was, if anybody was coming to fight with us? Was there a symptom or a tendency of such a disposition on the continent? Such being the case, and having no enemy he knew of to dread, he thought there was no necessity for keeping up a larger military establishment than had been found necessary in 1835 and 1836. Lord JOHN RUSSELL—The Hon. Gentleman, the Member for the West Riding, who has just spoken, has mentioned two points with respect to the estimates, the firet with respect to the forces in Canada; the second with respect to the forces in this country. As regards our forces in Canada, it may be quite true that they are nearly double as great in amount as they were previous to the breaking out of the rebellion in that province; but I must say that when that rebellion broko out in Canada, I could not help being somewhat uneasy on ac count of the smallness of the force we had stationed there.—(Hear, hear.) Those forces, however, behaved with very great intrepidity; the rebels were not well organized, and certainly did not make such a re f the rebellion was happily put do wn ; but I should a been d b e y x p t e u c o t e d b r ; a r a e n r y d o b yf ourth the skilltro troops, os b iu e srt v acn e Q r e y me na s a o : r n r d y he , ards well disposed as Canada is at pre sent, to see any g reat diminution of the forces sta tioned in that country.—(Hear, hear.) As to other of our colonies, certainly there may be some in which re duction may be made from time to time in the number of our troops ; but I think the force in our colonies is less than it was in 1835,—(iiear, hear.) The next point on which the Hon. Gentleman touched requires much more comment. Tile Hon. Gentleman objected to what he called the system of using troops to keep down the peor,le, and said that the principle had been for the first time avowed by my Right Hon. Friend the Secretary-et-War (Mr. F. Mettle). Now I heard what my Right Hon. Friend said, and I certainly heard no thing from him to such an effect.—(Cheers.) My Right Honourable Friend stated most truly that during the past year there had been many applications—the greater part of them from the mercantile towns—not by the military, but by the civil authorities, for troops to pre• serve peace and order.—(Hear, hear.) But were those troops to keep down the people ?—(Hear, hear.) By no means. They were to keep down a certain number of ill-conditioned and disaffected persons who wished to commit disorder, to promote tumult, and pro ha.bly to gain an opportunity for plunder, and with whom it is a libel and a calumny to confound the people of this country.—(Great cheering.) Thu Hon. Gentleman asked why should not the municipal authorities have power to embody special constables to keep the peace? They are at full liberty to do so, and may swear in special constables to morrow if they please, but it is after they have sworn them in, and wish to support them, that they make application for the military is order to enable the special constables to do their duty. In fact, the state of society has changed from the time when every man was ready to arm himself, and to go out into the etreels to keep the peace of the town. The great mass of the people in towns aro now accustomed to follow peaceable oscupations, and to look to other forces to enable the peace of the town to be kept, and if you refuse them all military assistance, and if they were to be harassed week after week, and night after night, by being called out to do the duty of special constables, it would give rise to great discontent, and to numerous complaints of the Government of the country.—(Cheers.) In effset, there tore, when we call in the troops under such circumstanc..s, it is not to keep down the people, but to defend the ma jority from the minority—(Hear, hear)—and to protect the great mass of the well-affected against the smaller number of the turbulent—persons not well contented, and boys, and others very often hardly connected with the towns, but who, if there was not some assistance given to preserve order, would not only be very mis chievous, but commit serious injuries on private property. —(Hear, hear.) I thought it necessary to defend my Right Hon. Friend, and not only this Government but the general government of the country, from the statements of the Honourable Gentleman. (Hear, hear.) Nothing can be more unfounded than the statement that the military force of this country is maintained to keep down the people, and I am very sorry that the Hon. Gentleman, knowing as he must do the history of his country, should have lent his authority to assertions which, if generally believed, could do nothing but mischief among the people.—(Loud cheers.) The Hon. Baronet who addressed the House (Sir W. Moiesworth) pointed out many instances among our colonies where a reduction might be made in the number of troops, and referred, among others, to the case of the lonian Islands, where he said the force might be very greatly reduced.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to some of these there may be instances where too great a number of troops are maintained, but I am quite sure my Noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies watches anxiously for every opportunity by which he may reduce the troops, when practicable. I really think,. however. when the lion. Baronet made these remarks the object he had in view was different from the object of the Go vernment. We are in possession of a great empire, which has been transmitted to us by our forefathers. The Lion. Baronet only thinks of the way in which it may be diminished. If you will only take away from what you have, instead of occupying a larger territory—if you will only withdraw your commanders and officers— no doubt your military forces may be made very much less, and, instead of 89,000, as proposed by the Hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume), you may reduce them to 49,000 or 39,000.—(Cheers.) But then our ob jects are different. Ours is to maintain the empire we have inherited from our ancestors in all its inteF,rity.— (Cheers.) If once you say your object is to diminish it, to make it smaller this year than it was the year before, and take it away bit by bit, you may of course goon` till you reduce it to the limits of this island.—(Cheer:.) That may be an economical experiment, but it is not one in which I should be willing to embark.—(Cheers.) My belief is, if you give any signs of shrinking from your duty of preserving the empire committed to your protec tion that though you may have no enemy now you would find soon enough you had enemies vho would demand something from you that you in honour could not grant, and the result would be that instead of such estimates as those before you we should be obliged to ask for war estimates.—(Loud Cheers.) Mr. HITIIE complained that the Noble Lord had not fairly represented his Hon. Friend (Mr. Cobden). If the colonies got liberal institutions they would not re quire troops. The Committee divided, and the numbers were— For the amendment .. 40 Against it Majority The vote was then agreed to. F. MAITLE übserved, that the Ordnance esti mates were now under the consideration of a Committee up stairs; but in the meantime it was necessary to have votes on account to carry on the public service, lie proposed at present to take a vote for one-half the sum on each item, and moved that 1,800,0001. be ;;ranted to her Majesty to defray the charge of the land tomes. Mr. HUME felt that the vote on which they had di vided wa hubic ant ill ly a vote for 7,000,0001. lie could do no more than enter his protes; but he should not object to the votes which the 'tight lion. Gentleman now proposed to take. C.:lontl DUNNE rose to call the attention of the (rouse to the privilege grantud to oili,ers of rho Guards of holding rank in the army stir.eri,r to tha, tit otii.iers of corresponding regimental rank in regiments of the line, the hewer:au-colonels an 1 majors in the Guards being colonels in the army, and the captains, iteut.auants, and ensigns, iieuftnant-coloneli, captains, and lieutenants in the army respectively, and lurther, to tali the attention of the I-loue to an ittgoiry whether there was anything so peculiarly onerous in the antics ot the household troops as to ju,tif)' the continuance of this privilege-, which, by giving more rapid promotion to one branch of the service, insured among other advantages an undue proportion of general officers from these fa voured corps, to the disadvantage of officers who served in regiments of the line in every part of the world. It was necessary perhaps to explain that ensigns in regiments of the Guards had the rank of lieutenants in the navy—(Loud laughter)—he meant in the army, in the regiments of the line; captains in the Guards had the rank of lieutenant-colonels and field-officers were full colonels on service. Such a system was greatly to the detriment of officers of regiments of the line, because officers of the Guards became field officers after a short service, and were en- • _ _ titled to: brevet' rank long before the officers of other regiments. For example, Captain Harrison, one of the officers of the 24th Regiment, which had suffered so severely the other day, had served for 42 years on full pay, and had but recently attained the rank of captain, whereas in the Guards Colonel Stuart had become hen tenant-colonel in 18 years. The Hon. and Gallant _ _ Member proceeded to adduce a variety of instancea in which officers in the Guards had obtained promotion atter a short service as compared with officers in regi ments of the line. Yet the captain in the Guards who became a field officer had no more experience. than the captain of a regiment of the line who did not become a field officer. From calculations he had made, it ap peared that one in every five regiments was com manded by officers who had belonged to the Guards, though, in proportion to their number, they ought to command only one regiment in thirty; and if the proportion of lieutenant-colonels maintained in the Guards were to extend over the whole army, . there would be 2,000 colonels altogether in the service. Whilst expressing a hope that the matters to which he had referred would become the subject of investigation before the Committee on the Estimates, he wished to be understood that it was far from his intention to depreciate the character of either the officers or men of the Guards, who had conducted themselves well wherever they had been called upon to serve.—(Bear, hear.) Mr. F. MAULE, after expressing the satisfaction he felt at the manner in which the lion. and Gallant Mem ber had brought the subject forward, stated that it was one which could not fail to come under the notice of the Committee on the Estimates. Without intending to enter into any discussion upon the present occasion, he must be allowed so observe that he knew of many in. stances in which officers who had exchanged into the Guards from the line had not been promoted to the rank of lieutenant-colonel as soon as they would have been had they remained in the line. The testimony which the Hon. and Gallant Officer had borne to the merits of the Guards was fully justified by their conduct, whether in war or peace. Colonel LINDSAY, though . prepared to meet the lion. and Gallant Member who had introduced this topic, was willing to postpone discussion until the matter should have been investigated by the Committee; and he was convinced that the result of the inquiry would satisfy all unprejudiced persons that the privileges en• jcyed by the Guards were not as injurious to the liue as was supposed in some quarters. Mr. HUME said the privileges enjoyed by the Guards were viewed with dissatisfaction by the rest of the ser vice. - -: • Sir H. VERNEY observed, that if the Guards pos sessed privileges they also laboured under disadvan tages; for instance, a c.marnission which could be pur chased in the line for 4001. or 500/. would cost 1,2001 in the Guards. An HoN. MEMBER declared, that whilst he had the honour of serving in the line he never knew that any feeling of jealousy was entertained by that branch of the service against the Guards.—(Bear, hear : ) After a few words from Maj or BL CItALL the vote was agreed to. The following votes were then agreed te:---86,000/. for the General Staff; excepting India ; 47,000/. tor the Public Departmen ts ; 8,000!. for the Royal Military Colle-- e —[Mr. F. MAuLE stated that the new regula tions'respectir.g eXaillillAtiOUS at this instituticn would be laid upon the table as soon as they were agreed upon] 9,0001. for the Royal Military Asylum; 33,000/. for Vo• lunteer Corps; 7,000/ for rewards for distinguished ser vices ; 39,000/. for the pay of general officers; a sum of 28,0001. for the full-pay of retired officers; 2011,000/. for half-pay and military allowances ; 22,000/, for fo reign half-pay ; 64,000/. for widows' pensions ; 48,000/. for the Compassionate List ; 17,6001. for the Hospitals at Chelsea and Kilmainham; 60,000/~ for the out-pen • sioners. On the last vote Mr. HUME wished to know the number of out-pensioners who were enrolled ? Mr. F. MAULS could not tell the exact number of out-pensioners ; but.the number enrolled last year, con sisting of those above 45 years who were fit fot service, was 20,000. Mr. HUME inquired how many there were in Ireland? Mr. F. MAULE said the number was 5,000. Sir H. VERNEY inquired whether the Right Hon. Gentleman had investigated the possibility of employ- inn pensioners in subordinate situations, as carriers. messengers, &c, in the public departments; and whether I holding out such a prospect after a certain number of years' service would not be a great inducement for good men to enter the army and to behave well whilst they were in it? Mr. F. MULE said the lion. Baronet was perhaps not aware of the number of pensioners who were already employed in the public service on account of their having been discharged with a good character. Many were employed by private individuals, and every year he re ceived applications from pensioners to be exempt from enrolment, on account of the 12 days' service which was required interfering with the appointments they held. As to the general question of holding oat the prospect of small places to them as a reward of good service, it was rather for the consideration of the Chrncellor of the Exchequer than of the Secretary-at-War. A vote of 19,000/. on account for superannuation al lowances was then agreed to. NAVY ESTIMATES. Mr. WARD proposed to obtain votes for the excess in the navy estimates. Mr. HUME protested against proceeding with so im portant a matter at this time of night (twelve o'clock). The House had voted 20,0001., the amount of the esti• mate la-t year, for the expense for arming and enrolling the artiz ins of the dockyards ; and the excess in this item was no less then 52,000 L, the expenditure incurred being 72,000/. He requested that this vote might be postponed until Friday, in order that he might bring the subj« ct before the House. Sir F. BARING was understood to say that the votes could not be postponed, but, After a few words from Colonel SIBTHORP, Mr. WARD consented to take a ♦ote on account, in order that the Hon. Member for Montrose might have the opportunity he ri quired. Mr. S. HERBERT said he was anxious to set right an error which he had inadvertently committed on Fri day night. when the navy estimates were last before the House. lie had received a letter from Mr. Green, of the firm of Wigram and Green, stating that he (Mr. S. Herbert) was wrong in attributing the lines of their vessels to any pereon but themselves. Mr. Green stated that he had not borrowed the lines of the Inconstant for any of their vessels, nor had he ever seen the lines of that vessel.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. S. Herbert) had made the statement with the conviction, at the tin.; that it was perfectly true. He had heard it from a naval officer of distinction, who enjoyed the friene'ship of Ad miral Hayes; and he had heard the statement so fre quently asserted that he thought he was quite justified in mentioning it. He was the more anxious to make this correction as it was so greatly to the credit of Mr. Green that he should build vessels that were liable to be taken for m( n of-war..—(Hear, hear.) A vote on account was then taken. THE NAVIGATION LAWS. Mr. GLADS TONE wished to know whether the Noble Lord intended to go into Committee on the naviga tion-laws on Friday? He believed the report on the resolutions in supply was fixed for that day, and there was one vote en which some discussion might take place. Lord J. RUSSELL said, that if the resolutions in supply appeared likely to lead to any long discussion, he would postpone them and take the navigation•laws the first thing. The House then resumed, and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow (this day). The Passengers Bill was read a second time and or dered to be committed. LARCENY ACTS AMENDMENT BILL. On the question that the Larceny Acts Amendment Bill be read a second time, Major BLACKALL said there was no reason for di minishing the punishment in cases of larceny merely on the ground that the commission of such offences had become more frequent than formerly. In conformity with the wishes of some Hon. Members who represented Irish constituencies he felt some desire that the present stage of the Bill should be postponed. Sir GEORGE GREY said that the Bill did not relate exclusively to.lreland, but unfortunately transportable offences had greatly increased in that part of the United Kiusr,dom, and even in Great Britain they had rapidly increased. It had really become necessary to make some distinction between the lighter and the graver class of offences. Mr. MILES would not, at all events, vote against the principle of a measure which had received so much con sideration elsewhere. Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said that such was the state of Ireland that the punishment of imprisonment could not be inflicted with any advantageous effect. The Bill was then read a second time and ordered to be committed. Mr. MAITLAND moved that the following Members be the Committee on the Recistering Births, &c., and Marriage Bills (Scotland): —The Lord Advocate, Sir G. Clerk, the Earl of March, Sir Henry Davie. Mr. Elliot, Sir David Dundee, Viscount Melgund, Mr. M•Neill, Mr. Solicitor General for Scotland, Mr. Forbes Mac kenzie, Mr. Cumming Bruce, Mr. Traill, Mr. Forbes, Mr. Duncan, and Mr. Smollett. Mr. LOCKHART objected to a Committee so selected, on the ground that it contained no Members for any of the principal cities or for any of the larger counties of Scotland. Mr. HUME hoped the Government would reconsider the names prop , sod on this Committee. It was very unusuil that the Lord- Advocate and the Solicitor• Gen eral stiould form a pat t of any C.orumitti,e upon a Bill so touch objected to aS tHs mf.asure was in Scotland. Mr. F. MACKENZIE observed, that the constitution of the Committee was a coalition on which the Bill had bet d to he read a see, nd time. Mr. F. MAULE said • the L. , rd-Advocate had left town on the und;:rstanding thst to. Committer, named by his 11 ,, e. Frivint the 6.ln:hot-General for Scotland wutt:il be assented to. Both tin. C-own law officers for Scotland were named upon the Committee because it was probable that they migi,t not be in town at the same time, and it was uncet tale which of them would bo able to attend. Mr. HUME had no objection to both those officers being pl,eed on the Gaul-nape it it was. understood that only 'we of thorn should inr present at a time. He Legged to move that the name of the Lord-Advocate be omitted, and that of Mr. L. llastie substituted. Alter a few words from Mr. DUNCAN, 'm 14 , :use divided, when there w ere— For Mr. Hume's amendment Against it Majority G 9 -55 On the question that Mr. Elliott be a member of the Committee, Mr. LOCKHART proposed that the name of Mr. Hastie be substituted. Mr. HUME recommended the Hon. Gentleman, after the result o' the previous division—(A laugh)—not to press his amendment. .Mr. WAWN complained that no Hon. Gentleman connected with the Free Church of Scotland was placed on the Committee. Mr. F. MAULE would undertake to say that the Free Church would be perfectly contented with the Committee as proposed. The amendment was then withdrawn, and the Com mittee, as proposed by the Solicitor. General for Scot land, was agreed to. Oa the motion of Captain ARCHDALL, certain re turns relative to the salaries, emoluments, and fees of clerks of the peace and clerks of the Crown in Ireland, were ordered. The House adjourned at One o'Clock. DISCOVERY OP A CAVE ON THE SOUTH ELSTERII RAlLwAY.—During the operation of the workmen on the North Kent line of the South-Eastern Railway, when tunnelling under the hanging woods at Charlton, near Woolwich, they came upon a cave of considerable dimensions cut in the chalk and flint rocks. A great quantity of sand has fallen at one end, blocking up the side from which it has apparently been entered, and the workmen are now busily employed is shoring up a part of the roof of one of the chambers, the railway passing over its entire breadth. Four chambers have been dis covered, forming alternate recesses from the main cave, leading in a westerly direction. The roof of the cave is on a level with the line of railway, and the base about twelve to fourteen' feet lower. The atmosphere in it is remarkably dry and pure, and presents a strange con trast with the damp and close atmosphere experienced in passing along the tunnel to the extremity where the cave has been discovered. The men state they found a knife and spoon on exploring it, and they turned their discovery to good account on Sunday, having lighted the whole of the tunnel with candles, and conducted visitors over the cave at the extremity, charging them 3d. each for admission. The Animals' Friend Society, of 457, last week charged Thomas Odell. carman to Di na.f ork Court, be foreot' No. G 2, Cornwall-road, at thekt:;o d u a horse which had W o _estSstrtuainthd: Mr. Seeker, waggon, the c ollar c hafing • lie was fined 10s. sad costs, a bleeding woun d w t o t h n a ah ing s h w t o b o n e r l d woundser ina loaded a s th e timber p)poor imprisonment. Sheriff's Court, Mr. Commis- Oa Saturday', in gave judgment in the case of " iant v. the oarntinl-taldpayrestsed against it. The facts of the case are these: In July last Lamon d •" lshares of the laintiff bought se veral Northern Counties iPud South Yorkshire, Doticas.,Lr and Goole Railwaiss Fioner Bullock which were put up to auction at the Hall of Cora -1 /Delve, defendant being the auctioneer; bat the latter would not give them up unless all the calls due upon them were paid up, considering that he aas bound to see them paid and duly rogiateren. On the contrary, it was urged by Mr. Clarke, of F e atherstone-buildings (the plaintiff's attorney), that the plaintiff had com plied with the conditions of sate by put fug the amount of the hid, and tendering the amount or the transfer; and further, that the purchaser was entitled to pay up the calls himself, and the broker was not responsible, as, by a late decision of the Vice.Chancrllor, no shareh o lder could evade his liability. His Honour considered there had been no forfeiture of the shares by not paying up the calls after the sale, and fonnd for the plaintiff for 131. 10s., the amount paid; but a second action for da inuAeo, for the detention of the shares, after a very long consideration, could not be sustained, after the plaintiff had recovered in the first action the amount paid. lllsnooLeritic TyrEs.—The National Printing office of France has just published a work entitled " Chronology of the Kings of Egypt," by Lesueur. This is the first book in whi c h t h e new hieroglyphic types o f that establishment h ave b een used at any length. Th e y are said to be extremely delicate and beautiful —very su perior to anything put forth by the English or German presses. The work is also the first bearing the new formula used under the Republic to distinguish a book printed at the cost of the Government.—Athenctun. DvATH OP EARL FITZWILLIABeeI CHIMPANZEE.— This rare animal died at Wentworth House, during the menagerie, night of Monday week. " was brought to thisd " rico, an presented by Captain Challoner, from .e th s e ddition to his chimpanzee would not to t h i i t s exist long in this variable climate, even ; storndsbheicpamasea evidentvaluab valuable with the greatest care and attention to diet, U. I