The Sun. — London, England, 1820-06-15 00:00:00

rd tee s, • sth to le nfttne of ri!lerry. With grit tris donr he had told them they were ier danger of 33 ert‘in L Y, that true lave of liberty, which was Il eVer So sttbstansisily gratified as when associated With that wholesome rule EISPI SllVMtdiliation which was indispensable to the stability of civilized so 'ietY•—(Hear, hear, hear !) Mr. V. FITZGEEALD hoped it would be per- Milted to an Irishman to give some expression t ° those feelings which he entertained in .common With all Gentlemen in the House, but which he trusted a countryman of Mr. Grattan's would be allowed to teel more warmly titan others. The .110.1 1. and Learned Gentleman who had made the motion had dwelt room the character of the il lustrious man with great clequence and teelieg. certainly was tine, that if you read the History °t Grattan, you must read the History of Ireland— ' Ahem . , hear!)—tor all the events attendant -on tts tablishingethe independence of Irelatol, were not only connected with his name bur etf, , eted by his talents. The chief glory of his triomph was, to make use of langnoge applied to Lord Clare- Thoet—alone in the history of empires, a rev-oln tiun- Was achieved without sheddiog oue drop of " 1 "tle-e-(1.1ear !)--.Anxious as he was to avoid any thin ; ; which might give rise to a difference opinion, it was impossible to contemplate Mr. t i rettati's death it i•loiniadeerting in stone man ner to that question which so his last uromeets uccupied his whole heart and soul. There was in t he very consecration which the question had pt -I,' t eivcd by Iris eed, enough to justily him in ad ' t i e tting to it. As trout his life it had received rife- et support, eo be confideetly hoped that trout his death it would derive its final success sod consummation.—(Hear 1) Mr. BtellElZ was convinced that the House 31, 0tild tie disposed to make every allowance for ' t he feelings that must animate every Irish bosom titr the less of the most distinguished and useful patri ot th a t hi s country had ver produced.— stoppiog for one moment to consider his 4/) 'n- incaoacity to address the House, he should 1 " e 0 ast'areted to sit silently in any assembly in ' he had a right to deliver his sentiments, Mien the name of Grattan was mentioned ; and Ire was sure that those sentiments would be in litli•50o with those of all who heard him, when he e xpressed his deep lamentation for the loss, and 4 is profonnel veneration and gratitude for the ser l'ices of the illustrious individual in question. It 1v " b'e Ito meaus his inteution to enter into a t t , etailed panegyric on that great man. He was t( "allY incapable of such a task, and, if lie were "Pible, it would be altogether supetfluons. The ' lll °live by which he had been principally actuated to address the House was to reraatk, that • a do -Ihin'eht—i he' (lying exhortation of Mr. Grattan " e his Catholic countrymen, addressed to a geu tietnan Who stood by his bedside, and itumediately "Mtnitted by .him to writing, bad been commu n!eated to him, which, wiih the permission of the rtouse, be would now read.—(Hear, hear, heat !) . - "The Hon. Member here read the document in l•ttcslion, but so rapidly that see are en44bbd to kite but an imperfect - sketch of it. It was, how ever, to the followiog effect It " I wi s h e d to go t o the House of Commons to testify with . I, st biesth opinions on the question of Catholic hot t cannot. Thedand of tivath is on une ,nrt nut afraid of death; but I fear for toe country if the ob aeci % , hic!l I have so lone; cherished should not be aceour wi,h the Catholics to he retires d frinn the oppres- Ita . , , i linde n which they have long been labouring, her: mast.: I considered them to he loyal men, worthy to be eetteee, upon a fuotiniz with the other members of the. it tt. Alt v , , to be allowed to vship God acc,rdiog to tirvirown Ir. 4C iedICCS. 1 swish the question to be settled, heeausel believe , 4 ,2 5 ' be essential to tlic permanent tr r einiihty and ; of Ihe country which are in tact identified with it. t he 411itilics hare' •under utt , trials. If their hopes 11...1•1‘ . V.t .y e e _et he again disappointed, I most earnestly deprecate any „:111ton o n their !fart with the advocates of Universal So4t flt.l Annual . Parliaments. Wet e the friends of those 4,,,,,ru1es to be successful in their obj e ct, nothilig conld . en- Ine nt the subversion of the Constitonon, - and the•estabLsh ,l h, "-r;?1 the . wildest Democracy. "there is one thing more. i iss. ,"!-111,01ci must cautiously avoid becoming . patties to any - ki it,Wluns that may unfortunately prevail in the Royal Fa • hear T.) ` ‘() thing could be more honoorahle to Mr. ' ra ttan than this proof of his anxious solicitude • 4 trr trr t dying moments to preeent his• countrymen falling into error. lie ( \lr. Beebe') trusted ;: t 4t the Catholics would not fail in the great ob lt;t which they had in view. If they should fail, jj ° °!ti only be by a depaiture• from' the (lying in tri"ectinns o f t h e i r unweaned champion and best titt ; and who had thus given them wholesome t , er .e . as he had freqoently done to those who ow! to legislate for them. He had gratificd his feelings by what he had said ; he hoped he no t dune any iejery to the memory Of. the Man of whom he had been speaking ; and :t orie r o t 7 l that he had not committed any unrea- Au ea ;: i respass- on I he patience of the .Houtse.— Zlit 'ear hear !) motion was then agreed to. INTERCOURFE WITH IRELAND. VOsi„” • MIN I.t.L rose for the purpose of pro tee4i4the app o i n t m ent of a Sel ec t Committee, to reli t i ß : of the ptovisjons of the Act of Union, Irel ar a t o the trade between Great Britain anti tie anti to report their opinion upon the(111- 11,: e Pai d upon articles from one country to alio l•„:11e Hon. Baronet entered at some length car t r ou ule imp ortance o f the subject, and into the i n 2 regulation s i n the Act of Union; regard ti"-,4. the ten per cent. and countervailing duties. rho ' mefg ued that, f ur the benefit of both countries, posts ought to be removed, the effect a t the 'woold be to give new life to commerce .present period of unexampled distress. He te„ n e tat ned further, that it was not intended by '14 4 .- u ` l e ' d c e t Of ,Unioo that those duties should be con -I)Cyoutl the 20 years there stipulated. It e impossible — ,"Vete • for the Irish manufacturers to the or i ni v°l ; l ' those of England ; anti the error in en market tillsten4a.betrltierietityriaswnasilotliviiesi that a 11 C"Xl:eil'e':itki.'ee Ettghish ilibt!rasoliti n u i , anufactUr e r isas confined the • eon lir " esti() his own country by the duties now Clia,aeellorCa li t he! (- hoped ;hat tier "1-iaces ( not to f obtain the a at a ltr ie 3' e.c. venue of 130,0001. to 150,0001. a year `: he pence of the commerce and prosperity lie e • " scotriiteg:ai t , s yli:ll)agitith:Yel i,billte(f)ovretrd(t;h7ealat'elpirt P .' oi- ) 1 1 ) , recallin g i, rt : j e e t :' the Committ ee I sn t h e purposes al • an te). fir tr,.otuw thateil"ri..as eoN seconded the mot i on on t h e inquiry was necessary, and that no 'nl eats ought to b tent tintrid id atlOatieb the commerce of the countty. Wrought iron, hard wire, and pottery•ware, were not found in Ii•e• land, and it was material that they should be af forded et as cheap a' rate as possible. Mr. V. FITZGERALD opposed the motion with considerable energy, urging that manufactories h a d been established, and large capitals embarked' in Ireland, on the faith of the continuance of these duties. Lord ALTHORP agreed that vested interests ought to be regarded, but contended that inquiry ought to he instituted. Mr. WiLmoT also supported the motion ; ire could see nu reason why the Irish should pay 10 per cent. on imported articles manufactured in this country. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that it was no , .v too late in the Session for commenc ing, an inquiry which would create great alarm in Ireland. It had been fottnetly understood that the duties were to be continued, and upon the filth of that understanding property to a large amount had been invested in various speculations ; and the mere uncertainty which au ittquiry would occasion, wonld-oi itself, in the present state of affairs, be a great evil. On the whole, the plan of gradual extinction, which he tiad recommended, he thought the best, ,anti likely to avoid many evils of 'importance. At a more favourable time he did not say that he should resist all investiga tion of the subject. . . Mr. CuiovEN was in favour of a Committee, as the duties Ought t o be rene%yed for the shortest possible period. Sir N. COLTHURST observed, that considerable apprehension had been felt in Ireland Upon this sidiject, and he thought any renewal or it was highly to be deprecated. Lord CASTLEREACH• thought that it might be injurious it it were even supposed that the ques tion was ieft open to future deliberation : it might interfere even with the establishmekt of that en larged and enlightened system of commerce, on which it seemed agreed on all hands this countiy ought to act. It ()light nut to be held out that this question was not - decided and ultimately deter mined, for there never was a moment when it was more necessary to. give trauquiliity to the public mind in Ireland, in the present depressed state of public credit there. Mr. Huns supported the motion. After a few word , from Mr. SHAW and General HART, Sir U. PARNELL. replied, and stated, that he kit it to be his duty to take the sense of the House upon his motion. The Gallery was then cleared, when, upon a division, the numbers appeared— For the ;notion 9 O Against it Majority against .t PAVING AND LIGHTING THE CITY OF DUBLIN. It was ordt-red,- on the motion of Mr. SHAW, that there be laid before the House an Account of the Amount of the Dublin GrAnd Jury Cess for the last six years, ending the first Jau. 1S20; the Amount charged to each Parish, tloe In solvency and Reassess, and the Amount lost by Collectors; also the Total Amount charged within the same period fur ‘Vatchiug, Paving, and Lighting the said City. MUTINY BILL. Lord PALmeasroN moved the Older of the Day for the third reading . 0 the Mutiny BHI. The Order being read,' •"f hat this hill be now resththe third time" — Lord NuGENT begged to inquire whether the first itcsolinion included the service for Intik& • Lord .PALmettsTON said, that thr lic•solution had better be rvad was rend by the Clerk ; it did not include hit service. _ _ Lord NuouteT then rose —lle said it was far from his wish to enter at length into the detail; of this question. Ile feared the motives by which he was actuated, iii addressiug the House, would make hut little impression on the 'Gentlemen op posite ; the few 7 observations which he had to make should threfore be applied to the principle, not" to the details of the subject tinder discussion - . He felt, however, that he should shore the time of the House if he coofinerl himself to that cold anti uninteres - ing matter (he said it with defe reoce to the Noble Lord), in which the estimates of so . great tt military force, in time of peace, were annually,brought forward. The maintenance of a large st array in time of peace was al ways looked upon with an eye of jealousy ; it was rejealOtisy formerly strongly felt, but he feared that it hattnow become an old-fashioned feeling. Ile_should he sorry if such was the case, but he could not help thinking that it was the fact. He did not, for himself, see the necessity of main taining . such a force ; he thought, indeed, that ,a better mode of defence might, in times like the present, he resorted to. He considered that .force, with reference to its avowed application, as worse than useless, he considered ,that.it was supported in contradiction to the soundest prin ciples of the Constitution. It would, he said, alarm our ancestors, if they could contemplate the present . situation of the country—if they could look at the state at our military establish ments. After five years of profound peace we have an army of ninety-two thousand men, ex clusive.of twelve thousand yeomanry and other force ! What did this force mean? What was it but a gigantic stride towards a military Govern ment ?--(hear, hear !)----He looked in vain, from what fell from the Noble . Lord in the re cent debates in that House, for any thing that, in the state of this country, in the temper and feelings of the people, could justify this mons trous revolution in the constitutional Govern ment of Eneland. The Noble Lord Seeme' to rest the vindication of Ministers on the-notoriety of the necessity for calling out that force. He was not disposed to admit as a postulate of the Noble Lord's, that any thing which had recently occurred in the coutt!ty did justify so gre a t a change in the Coencils and Government. He recollected that. about four years ago, a set of estimates to a considerable amount e ft s laid be fore the House. He must remind tire House that on a former occasion, when Ministers hav ing lost the Property 'fax, they withdrew the Army Estimates, and that circuthetance gave biro hopes that on consideration they would conceive that something less than 92,000 men would now be sulli , ietit. The Finance Commit tee, in the year 1817—a year, he it remembered, of such imagined' dasnger that his Majesty's Mi• nisters had thought tin to'suspend the Habeas , Corpus Act—in that year the Finance Committee Itati reeninerionrid an Eip . prOxinistion OF the army to the standard of the year 1792. 1-1 , admitted the public distress, and consequent tlisaffction which existed, but he contended they ,sere ag gravated by the course no‘v pursued. There was a Comniotee in another place on the Foreign Trade, and they had a Committee of their own on the Agricultural Distresses, but they could only come to the conclusion, that a large standing army was not the way in which the distresses of • the manufacturer could he telieVeri, the enterprise of the merchant reanimated, or by which the farmer could he restored to his farm as it was be fore it was ruined by taxation ; and, above all, it was not the way to reclaim the public confidence in that House, and eonvince the people that it stood where the Constitution had placed it, as a barrier bet \teen the public and a system of profu sion and extravagance unparalleled. The Noble Lord disclaimed any intention to give expression to exaggerated statements, but he must de precate the frequent interference of the military on all occasions ; the other day they were called in on the occasion of election of a Member of that [louse. most still contend that the addition last year, in time of profound peace, of 11,000 men to the military force, was a total lation of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, as bring raised without the consent of merit, and when the Parliament did :meet it had not even been though; necessary . to apply for a Bill of Indemnity. He considered the additional .burden on the country as by far the least part of the evil, yet it the amendment which he should propose was carried, the actual saving would he above half a million. 'Flue Noble Lord concluded by coojhrihg the House, it they would long pre serve their own existence and the Constitution of the country, that they would vigilantly discharge their duty in presenting a gheck to the system of governing by means of a standing army. He then moved, that in place of 92,224 men, .77,224 should he substituted. The SPaAKaR obs,rved, that after the Bill was read the third time would he the proper period to propose the amendment. The Bill was then read the third time, and on the Speaker putting.the question for the amendment, \lr. BRIGHT rose and said, that he could see no reason to increase the establishment beyond that of the year 179'2. It was true that many changes had occurred since theft, anti many bad scenes b e en witnessed ; among others, that of a military body charging an assemblage of persons who, whether legally met together or not, he would nut say, yet it was Celtak that they considered them selves a legal assembly. He did not believe in the existence of any disaffection to the con,titution of King, Lords, and Commons, though doubtless the people thought there were some things which might be amended, and in that class they included the extraordinary increase at the militaty force: — To the amount of that increase he would support the proposition of the Noble Lord, and it Aliois ters would not consent to that modification, he would vote for the entire proposition. • 'Lord PALMartSTotsl ihsisted that the country was essentially differeat in its condition now from what it was in 1792, !is well from die increase of the colonies, as the ill-lisp sed minds of the peo. We. - With . rega'rd to calling out the Veteran Batta lions last year, it was always a principle that where there was ans„ , apprehension of outward war, or as' be cow ended, of internal commotion, which was as bad, the Government was justified i• having recourse to the Milit a ry,--(Hear, heat, hear.)—Parliament was not kept in ignorance of the' circumstance, for it was mentioned in the speech from the Throne, and re-echoed in the Addresses of both Houses. If the !liing had been unconstitutional, the Noble Lord and his Friends should have noticed it before, far it happetied some months ago,--(Hear, hear !) If the House looked back to the disturbances at Glasgow, and the conspiracy tried in the City, they would see that these measures were warrant ed by the circumstances. He denied that the corn motions were the consequence of the restrictive measures, but preceded them. The Ministers were not the. aggressors . ; they were trying to shelter the people from the consequences of them. The Noble Lord concluded some more observa tions,. by protesting that the military were not called out to diminish the liberties of the people, but to enforce them. They were called out to protect that Constitution against the 'ow rages of daring agitators, which was the best inheritance to them all, and which he hoped would .be handed Clown entire to their children.—(Hear !) Colonel DAVIES supported the necessity of a reduction. He contended that the force of 1819 was quite sufficient for the present timt s. In case the 1 - louse should think that the Amendment ut the Noble Lord went too far, lie should there fore propose as a middle term, which .world re place ,the army on the. foot login which it was in. 1819,' that its numbers do not .exceed 80,479 It was one conaelltience oldie too frequent jitter . ference of the military", that the people themselves were dispirited from 'Making resistance. • ! - The SPEAKER then Dot the question; that " the words proposed to be left out do stand as part of the Sir 1-1. VI/lAN said, that having had the honour: to be appointed on the Staff in, Scotland at the time the augmentation complained of took place, he rose for 'the purpose of snaring some facts which came within his own knowledge. The population of Glasgow, consisting of nearly 200,000 persons, were in a state of discontent not to be conceived. The Field Officer of the 7th regiment hail informed him', that in that neighbourhood he bad seen a body of '25;000 men, not armed certainly, but they dispersed' in a manner so regular, that it would have been highly creditable to any body of . discip• lined troops whatever. A good deal had been said about the yeomanry ; they certainly were a deserving body of men, hut he would by all means recommend their not being opposed in the first instance to any popular commotion ; and he was satisfied that the affray which took place at Greenock would not have occur7ed had the escort been of the regular troops. He deprecated any reduction of the forces now, as a misplaced and false economy, which would infallibly lead to fu tore evil consegoeoces. tie denied that he now rose as a defender of the army, and he hoped he ' had sufficient liberality to feel, that when eircum- VatlcLq or it, tile make sderifices, as well as every other class of the c,)ra- Alr.tiottiOutig said, that the embodying of the rrtldi iottal force was an infringerthsrit of the 13‘11 of Rights ; and as to the necessity now, which did not exist in 1792, he denied that thc7e was any; for iu 1793. after the King of Fiance had been pot to death, an increase of 2.000 then only took place. lie should vole for the proposition of the Noble Loid, because it wen , further than that of the gallant Colonel (Da‘ie , ) ; and if ihe Noble Lord had voted the reductioit of the whole - army, he should have voted with him.—(l - fear, hear, hear !).1-le perfectly tioderstood the Wean ing of those cheers. The Noble Lord was backed b y his Parliamentary majorities aid a standing army, whilst he (Mr. littbboust) had nothing to support hirnbut the consciousness of doing his duty. The mil question was, if the country was to be governed by a . standing army or not ; and on this head be would quote what bad been said by Fletcher of Salton!), "•that there were doubts if a standitig artily could vai,triish our foleign ene mies, but no doubt whatever that they could en slave us." The Lion.Alember here recApitttlated tile progress of the st an di ng army in this country from 111 first formation, in the appointment of 50 yeomen of the grand by Henry VII. down to the present time. Lle observed, that James 11. attempt ed to maintain 30,000 men ; we had now 35,000 men for England only ; they were not, it was true, encamped at floooslow, but if that House of Commons did its duty, he expected to see them there. Standing armies anti standing Parliaments came in and coutinne to flotirish together, but he hoped the one would soon be shortened, .and the other diminkhed in an equal proportion. The topics be had urged on their attention were not new; they were the senti ments of the political ancestors of every twoi who sat in that House. Against an establishment at the utmost ,of eighteen thousand men bad en arrayed the wit of Lord Chestetfidd, the po litical knowledge of Sir William Wyndham, and the sound sense of Sir Robert Walpole. He thought it rather singular that the 25,000 men who had been seen by the Officer, as stated by the Gallant General - opposite, considering the space of ground which they must occupy, had been seen by no one else, and had never been heard of till that moment. In proof that there was no necessity for so large a force to put down internal commotions, he alluded to the ease with which in London Alderman Wood had put down an apparently formidable meet ing; at Derby one Officer and 18 men snaked to crush an insurrection ; and at Nianthes er , 100,000 people had been dispersed by a, 510:111 number of drunken yeomanry. As to seditious publications, be professed to regard them as of no effect whatever, it no cause for conaplaint realty existed ; butt-if cause for neiveisal complaint did exist, it would not be 92,000-men which could prevent the catastrophe which Ministers dreaded. Colonel DortEs and Sir H. VIVIAN mutually explained. Mr. VESECY FITZGERNLD was persuaded that nothing but a sense of &sty could have occasioned she ueliviry of the extraordio.#ry expr, , ssbm onsi tentiments which the House had just heard. He would not attempt to follow the lion. Member, for in one sentence he thought he had furnished et reply to,all his other arguments, for he had said, that he was not only prepared 10 vote for the proposition of the Noble Lord, but also to disband the army entirely. lie thought that as it re. girded Ireland; so far from being able to with draw any part of the force from thence, if soma tranytillizing measures wet e not adopted ,t he troops t:iete would be insufficie it for the maintenance of the public peace. He did rot tisain to con tend that the present amount of force should be contemplated as permanent,_ bat what he would strongly argue against was, the endangering the country by arty sudden reduction of that force at present. Mr. W. SMITH thought that no greater proof could be given of the bad government exercised for centuries by this Country towards Ireland, than the want from year to year of a military force to keep down its population. Nothing showed a good Government so clearly as an easy, happy, and contented people. When had the Irish been such a people Unless wiser measures were adopted, it would become necessary for ever to maintain them by the use of the bayonet and the ' sword, and instead of a permanent source of strength, one of weakness would be found in a country, which under a better system might be. come the right arm of England. Ile did not be lieve that the standing army was kept up to des stroy the liberties of the subject, but partly front habit, and partly from the influence with which it armed the Ministers. Ile recommended eco nomy as more calculated to conciliate the affec tions,ot toe people, and to produce public trans quillity, than the maintenance of a large standing army. Mr. V. FITZGERALD explained. Mr. it.. MARTIN (Galway) said, be thought , the Genilemen opposite made use of al ginnents calculated to keep up a standing army, when they -told the Radicals that the Government kept up a standing army for the sole purpose of subjtrgats ing the' country. Was it not fitter for them to quiet the perturbed spirits in the country, and say, that the Ministrs wire doing all in their power to afford relief The Hon. Member complimented Mr. Hobliouse on the improvutrie'ut in his political opinions, and congratulated him on the temper which, he had acquired. He never heard a more constitutional speech from the other side of the House than that delivered by the Hon. Member ; but he would ask the House, what was likely to be produced in the public mind by desiring theta to pull the Members out by the ears ?—(Order, order !) The SPEAKER—" I an) quite satisfi.d it will not be Necessary for me to appeal ro the House, and shall submit it to the consideration of the 1-I , •n. , Member, whether, in stating what he has now stated, he has not alluded to what cannot be Con nected with the ques tion before the House, and whether he can do so consistently will the outer of the House 1%" Mr. MARTIN resumed.—lf the House were of fended at hearing. the expressions, he doubted the.