The Sun. — London, England, 1849-04-24 00:00:00

Mr. ROBINSON agree d w i t h hi s Right Hon. Friend, land in Halifax or Nova Scotia, nor up the r that the ansaers from foreign nations, in reply to the River St. Lawrence to the Allegheny mountains, nor invitations addressed to them, amoutitscl to this, that if south of Georgia, and that no barque except the Indien we repealed the navigation-laws, then we should see , canoe eavioat, d those immense tracts of waters, and what they would do.—(Heae.) He could not see what that at present a population of 25.000,000, speaking the commensurate advantaee any foreign countries could English language, inhabited those ferrite:ice, there give this country. The letter of Mr. Bancro f t in the surel y could be no doubt of the advanta g es that must at ease of Ameri ca might serve as a comment; that gentle- tend an unrestricted intercourse between the people of mart stated that America would reciprocate with this the two countries. The condition of the people of the country, bat it was well known that America never United States was said to be physically Etna morally he meant to give no their coasting trade. With yond that of the people of the United Kingdom. Why regard to the application of the principle of free- was it so ? Had the people of the United Kingdom de trade to agriculture, it was said that the depression generated ? lie could not conceive that they had. And of that interest was not owing to free-trade, but to when they knew that labour was dearer in the United other disturbing causes, such as the failure of the States than here, and that every article used in ship potato crop, which ho allowed to a certain extent building, except timber and sheathing copper, was dearer operated in that direction ; but he felt satisfied that also—when it was notorious that their crews were, at all when these disturbing causes ceased they would still events, as well fed and as well paid as the crews of Eng experience depression. There could be no doubt that if lish ships, he thought that they need apprehend no these laws passed, although ship building would not stop thing whatever from the competition with the Americans altogether in this country, still it would be greatly di- in the navigation of the world.—(ll , ar, hear.) mirushed. No one except Captain Stiring would hold Mr. WALPOLE said that, looking at these naviga the opinion that a mercantile navy was not essential to a tion-laws historically, they might he divided into four military navy. The plan of Captain Stirling was to have periods—from 1815 to 1825, from 1825 to 1835, and from voluntary enlistment in the navy and a shorter term of 1835 to 1842. Comparine the. tonnage of British vessels service—of three years. Now, that was altogether im- and the number of men with the tonnage and number of practicable. His objection to the Bill was that it would men in foreign vessels, they had increased in an equal throw open to foreigners the direct colonial trade, which ratio during the first period.—(Hear.) The next he would no more allow them to participate in than he change brought on the rec i p r oc it y s y stem of would suffer th em i n th e coast i ng trade Mr. Huskis- Mr. Huskisson, and again comparing the relative son and Lord Cornwallis held the inter-colonial and fish- progress of British and foreign shipping, the con ing trade to be essential to the maritime pre-eminence of 1 elusion was, that these rec i p rocit y treaties of Mr. Hus • this country. M uc h h a d b een sa id by gentlemen oppo- I kisser, had been beneficial, and if so, why alter the site of retaliation. H e s h ou ld like to know what country I system, and do away with the navigation-laws?---(Hear, could retaliate upon this country without injuring itself. I hear.) There was a. difference between alteration and There was not one of them which was not more depon- I abolition, and considering the vast amount ct capital dent on our m a rk e t s t h an we w ere on theirs. Take 1 dependine upon these laws, and considering the small the case of America, the most formidable rival we had. 1 fractional benefit which would result to consumers of It appeared that more than half of the entire exports of I sugar, cotton, and wool, they were not justified, econo that country were made to the markets of this country. 1 mically, in abolishing these laws. Whether they would In fact, we had nothing to fear from the retaliation oft materially profit by this proposed experiment was other countries. Ho wished to do away with monopolies, doubtful. There was a tonnage of four millions, an if other countries would imitate their example ; but t employment of men and boys to the number of 240,000, since the time of Mr. Huskisson, now twenty-seven ! and freights amounting to between twenty-five and thirty years, nothing of that kind had taken place. On looking i millions a year, dependent upon the success of this over the evidence before the Committee, he found that i measure. The magnitude of the interests affected should seventeen of the principal merchants, connected with the induce caution, and ho would rather recommend altera- East and West Indies, Australia, and other parts of the 1 tion than abolition.—(Hear.) If the effect of free trade world, one and all declared, that they never found the I was not applicable to international carriage, although least difficulty in obtaining freights at moderate prices. it might be to internal barter, the responsibility which He was for forty years a merchant in the city of London, \ the promoters of this measure took upon themselves was pretty actively engaged, and he could also testify to great. He now came to that part of the question which that fact, notwithstanding the new-fangled notions which ! was most important. Last year Government brought on had sprung up in this country of late years on that and the measure upon evidence which was most important, other portions of their commercial system. The 1 and, as regarded the national defences, they relied solely Manchester gentlemen thought every thing was I upon one witness, Sir James Stirling. Was that the to be sacrificed in order to set them and way to deal with a law which had been in existence for their spinning jennies at work—(A. laugh)—but he 150 years? The proposed measure would endanger could tell them that every year the great commercial I their national marine, and a national marine was the States of America were rivalling them more and more, I foundation of national greatness.—(Hear.) According either by drawing away their best artisans, or copying 1 to the evidence of Sir Byam Martin, the dockyards could their works, and even France and Italy were not only not supply a sufficient number of shipwrights, and upon supplying themselves with articles independently of Eng- an emergency they were obliged to have recourse to land, but determined to keep up a system of protection. private dockyards. Skilful shipwrights were absolutely He should give the measure every opposition in his i necessary, if they meant to keep their navy in a state of power, and ardently hoped that it would be rejected by I efficiency. He then referred to the manning of the fleets, the Legislature. i and to the evidence of naval officers, to prove that the Mr. M`GREGOR would not have obtruded himself i victory of the Ist of June could not have been gained upon the House on the present occasion were it not that i had it not been for the drafts of seamen from the mer be represented one o f th e grea t es t s hipbuilding towns in chant service. It was asked, however, by Gentleman on the empire, and one o f t h ose mo st i n terested in cos- / the other side, " Well, but will you keep your laws as merce. In entering upon th e discussion of this measure they are ?" His answer would be that if there were de he must begin by sayi n g that h e did not complain of I fects in the existing navigation-laws, let them apply a what the measure did for foreign ships, so much 1 remedy, which could be done without destroying the as of what it left undone for foreign ships. He was far I law. They were about to repeal the navigation-laws from entertaining the opinion which others did, that dis- altogether, and allow the ships of foreign states to trade estrous consequences would ensue from the passing of with British ports. Now, instead of doing so, he would this Bill. At the same time he wishel that every re- retain the laws, and, under the power s pit' relaxation, striction and burden which it imposed upon British ship- I would enter into treaties with favoured nations, to give owners should be removed, and he alluded to that clause them certain advantages. He could not consent, by his especially which restricted British shipowners from man- vote, to hazard an empire which hal been gained by so zing their ships its any way they thought best for their much valour, and preserved by so much wisdom, which own convenience and advantage. He believed that was was more extensive than both the Americas, which had the only clause in the Bill which he would like to see been cradled in its infancy by the genius of Blake, and altered. But there were other burdens upon the ship- consecrated in its cuhninatory point by the blood of owners of this country—he meant the stamps upon ma- Nelson—the empire of the sea.—(Cheers.) rine insurances on bills of lading, and on other docu- SirJ.GRAHAMsaid, when it was remembered that he meats and instruments connected with the shipping had had the honour of presiding at the head of theAdmi interest. He should also wish to see that law abolished ralty, and that certain Acts were brought forward by which interfered with the victualling of British ships. hi m while in that capacity, it would not be matter of He should also wish to see the lighthouses of this coun • surprise that he should be desirous of expressing his try put upon the same footing with those in the United t sentiments on the question before the House, especially States, where the whole were in the bands of the Go - 1 as he had never ceased to take an interest in maritime vernment, and where their expense did not exceed half 1 affairs. Desirous as he (Sir J. Graham) was that this their amount in this country. If these r e s trictions were ' measure should pass into law, he could not but regard it removed he feared no competition with other countries. as an auspicious omen that it should be brought in by lie would go further, and say he could not discover that the First Minister of the Crown, and the Member for the navigation-laws had at any one period been of ad- the City of London.—(Hear, hear.) Reference had been vantage to the British s hip o wn e r a nd B r iti s h s hipbuilder. ma d e to pet i t i ons on th e su bj e ct, and the name of Baring Mere than that, from their establishment up to 1815, h a d b een men ti one d. He looked on the opposite side of this country had during the greater part of the time t h e H ouse , and he saw on the Treasury Bench the head been engaged in war with other countries, and dur- of the Barings, and who had had the honour of being tug that whole period they were actually break- I appointed by her Majesty to preside over the navy ing the n av i ga ti on -l aws, for they captured ships from the en em y, an d t h en i t was considered that of England—(Hear, hear) —a man of forethought, I of extended views and of determination, and he could they strengthened th e power of this country by regis-t e not think that gentleman would give his assent tering them as B r iti s h s hi ps. Now he could no to a measure whi c h wou ld have the effect, as some that there was th e l east di fference between the Britishse anticipated, of injuring the commerce and the naval shipowner being allowed to buy a foreign ship and regis• ter her as a British vesse l, an d the British navy captor- power of this c oun t r y.—(H ea r, bear, and cheers.) her registered He then looked t o th e f ee li ng ex hibited in the outports, ins a foreign ship in w ar , an d t h en h av i ng With regard to our Norh Am er i can co l on i es , i t was re- and how did the M em b ers f or Liverpool vote, and also the Members for Gl asgow ? Why they voted for the markable that every subject of di scon t ent b etween t h ose colonies and this country h a d re f erence to t h e restlic- Bill.—(Hear, hear.) Wh en a w i s h w a s expressed that commerce would speak, he would remark that the opinion tions on trade, which lasted up to the period of the de o f t h e tra d e and commerce of the country was to b e claration of war. He saw n o reason now why they should . taken from the representatives. He would now turn to dread cempetition with fo re i gners . I n the case of neu- the speech of his Honourable and Learned Friend (Mr. tral ports, such as Porto Rico, Cuba, and the Brazils he s p e), who had treated the subh under three ge• found that British ships contended anccessrully wittAhe n W er a a l l ' b l eeds, namel , historical, '. economical, and national. 'hips of every other country except those of Spain in the He (Sir James Grayham)woudfol vomitlo hiS example, and Sganish colonies, which gave a p re f erence t o Spanish first as to the historical part of the question. On that sieges, by allowing a drawback of 33 1-3 upon the duties point he thought it was sufficient for him to go back to on goods imported in Spanish vessels. But on the i the period of the consolidation of the laws in the reign other hand, England had her revenge with respect to of Charles the Second. He looked to the origin of the Spain; for he found that those high duties were not law in that narrow mercantile system which proceeded equal to the advantages we possessed, in b e in g able to on the principle, that what one nation gained must be send goods into Spain by way of Gibraltar. gained at the expense of another. That was a principle With regard to competition with the different countries which he thought was exploded, but it would seem from of Europe, he would begin with Sweden and Nor- the course now pursued, that there was some attempt to Way. Comparing their ships with British ships, he found I renew it.—(Hear, hear.) It had been alleged that the that ev er y ar ti c l e w hi c h en t ere d i n t o the constitution of effect of the Act of Charles the Second was to revive a . British ship, paid no duty e xcept on the little foreign , commerce. Now, he believed, that almost immediately timber that entered into her construction, while the ' after the passing of the Act in 1670, Roger Cook pub- Swedish ships paid duty upon their cannon, their anchors, li s h e d a t rac t f or th e p ur p ose o f p rov i ng th a t th e p ass i ng their cordage, their copper sheathing, and often came of the navigation laws had operated to drive the trade over to this country very slenderly equipped, in order to to Russia and Finland, and greatly to diminish the trade obtain the principal part of their rigging and stores here. of the country. Another writer (Child) wrote a treatise, It so happened that wo had full and entire reciprocity showing that these laws had the effect of destroying the with Sweden, Denmark, and Norway, before the nevi- Baltic trade. Another writer on the subject, in 1750, gation-laws existed. It was true that there were more said that the intention of the navigation-laws was to add Swedish than British ships employed in the trade, but to the number of seamen and to increase the tonnage of that was because our importations consisted of manufac- the shipping, but the reverse had been the fact.—(Hear.) tured goods, which required sma ll t onnage , w hil e th e • He would now refer to the great authority, on which so return cargoes were of great b u lk, w hi c h ma d e it not much re li ance was placed—Adam Smith, speaking from worth the while of British vessels to engage in the trade. memory, and taking the whole of the passage to which But their ships had not gre a tly i ncrease d over ours , f or his Learned Fr i end (Mr. Walpole) at Adamhehadreferrsed,ith w be hea found that nearly the same p ro p ort i ons ex i s t e d l i eve d he was r i ght i n say i ng in 1702 as now. With regard to the Hanse o f op i n i on th a t the naeigetion-laws were inimical inTmicalto s Towns, they had always allowed the ships of commerce.—(Hear, hear.) He laid down the doctrine every country in the world to come into their har- that the greater the number of tellers, the greater hours with any cargo, not even imposing light-house would be the number of buyers ; but the effect of duties upon them. And how did British ships the navigation-laws was to do the reverse. Under their stand at Hamburgh? He found that there had been operation they bought in foreign markets dearly, and a gradual increase of British shipping, and that, taking sold cheaply. On the economical part of the question, one year with another, they amounted to one-third of the Newton of politics, as Adam Smith had been called, the whole tonnage in that part. Then with regard to was against his Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Walpole). Prussia. Their ships were much on the same footing He would now come down to the period of the relaxation With Sweden. Their exportations also consisted of of these laws. Towards the period of 1824 and 1825 the cargoes of heavy bulk, which made it not worth the pressure upon the commerce of the country became ex while of British ships to engage in the trade. But he cessive, and it was therefore a question whether Govern did not find that Prussian ships entered largely into ment should relax the operation of these laws, or whether competition with British ships where there were no navi- they would permit the country to be excluded from the gation•laws, such as Cuba and Porto Rico. By a refer- mar k e ts of Europe. Its such a state of timings the relax once the departures trade return s f or t h e p as t quar t er , ho f oun d al i en was f orce d upon t h em; it was no t a matter o f c h o i ce , thae departures of Briti s h s hip s f or var i ous p or t s no t an d a l t h oug h t h e s hi pp i ng i nterest was oppose d to i t , t h e British were constant and frequent. In Holland, British measure was carried. But still in the abstract he could ships were subjected to no higher port charges than not attach much importance to this system of recipro- Dutch vessels. Freedom of trade and from the re- city, becatozo it made the interest of others the measure striction of navigation-laws had been the rule in the of their own. He had another objection to clause Lew w Countries from ,th o esta bli s h ment o f t h e i r power which it contained.. a e If reciprocity or retaliation e to the present time ; and if Holland prospered and grew were to be the general rule, ho for one great under a system of perfect free trade, he could not should any it was much better to leave conceive why any other country, with equal energy, the navigation-laws as they were, and not act on any equal enterprise, equal advantages , and positive an d suc h pr i nc i p l e. Retal i at i on appeared to him to be this, equal economy, might not dey competition with that because some foreign nation did that which was every country on earth.—(Hear.) In the Dutch settle- more injurious to hermit than to them, in a spirit of ments in Java and Batavia the English had not the same blind esto passiontheyproceeded to do that which was more advantages as the Hollanders; but the reason was that themselvesinjurious ae rle he than to others .—(: tear , hear.) a we subjected the produce of our Indian possessions to To retali a ti on , was opposed, but he was double duties. Let England remove the restrictions prepared to give hi s assent t o this Bill, because, upon upon the trade of Holland with British India, and he the whole, he was of opinion that, consideri i n d g the large Was certain the Dutch would permit English vessels to amount of capital which this countr?r tis c e ol i l ts engage in trade with Java and Batavia upon equal terms with them- maritime speculations -- considering advantages selves. In Belgium there was the same desire to reci- and superiority on the sea, he was satisfied g that any procates As to France, he should say that the present sure which added generally to the commerce of the we ld would have the effect of' enlarging greatly the commerce wor commercial and maritime policy of the country was extremely illiberal. The arrangements entered into o f t hi s country, and that the lion ' s share would fall to between Mr. Pitt and the t hen French Ministry, in their lot. In other respects the measure would be advan -1793, were the most liberal over known. But the tageous, for the number of seamen would be increased, and breaking out of the war put an end to thht state of commerce, in its numerous branches,increased. Every pea- things, on that existed in 1825 for the repeal of these lawseix and it had never since been thoroughly restored. s In Genoa the moat liberal maritime policy prevailed. isted at the present time with at least equal force. With Rome and Tuscany nothing could be more He could not regard with indifference the invitations loweliberald. The kingdom of the Two.Sicilies al- they had received from foreign Pow ers . —(H ear .) H e British ships to trade on exa ctly the would not again trouble the House with th e passage f rom same terms a s their own. In the p orts belon g ing the Prussian Minister's letter of 1847, but he considered i • to Austria on the Adriatic our vessels were allowed that unless they proceeded to make further relaxations, to enter o n t h e same t e rms as Austrian. If h e went the exact type of their measures would be adopted b y f urther he should point to Turkey, where no restric- Prussia, and all their restrictions be returned by retalia tions whatever existed. And as to Russia, there our lion. They treated America with greater severity than ' Vessels were allowed to enter their ports from all coup- she treated them. Their treaty with Russia would tries in the world exactly on the same footing as Ras - expire in 1851, and if they had any desire to continue their conditions must be pe on ships. He had thus gone through all the countries their terms of friendship re U at naedStat h e u s t h th ad e - innet_he continent of Europe , and shown that in every viewed. As to the United States, it was not necessary ~Vlee they treated the British much better than the to have any treaty with them. to n G e "ith treat them; whilst, with re and to their power of a law with respect, nos only_ Britain, . Zl o i l t i r . t . endin g with treat at issue, whatever was granted us in shipbuilding, they might do so . if world at large, that, with the exception of the coasting tha n skilful and more economical trade, which was not now J P 3 , 4 Be:sed people more s should be granted _ , c h ew the people of England. For they had labour by another country • In the evidence given last year at once, and as of per, whilst our only advantage lin having a right, to those countries. eau leas eh ter •they had, and r quality of timber than at a . reference to the states price. Upon the subject of timber, he should only presented by a witness with Ea real and before the Committee, there was a most important view y that he hop dto see the duty entirely removed from of the Zollverein. There was a g . • • °alt. At the e 'Hounded apprehension, that I close hi risk of tiring the House, he mild not certainly we • ion-laws, the figour of their navigation-laws, itself the s observations without alluding to the United adhered to to extend itself f they Of America. the great Ca. He took a much , higher view of it woe other places. There was a le s h eet republic than as a mere opponent of England. to Hamburgh, Bremen, and world become part of its olicy ene wished to see established between the United States passage in a speech delivered by Mr. and couldsay upon ao _ . England all the bonds of social and material alli- which contained, in brief, all that he .e Huskisson in 1826, t zrlie wished them to be considered as a people of this subject, and which appeared. to him to containthe "" mine origin as the English, a people to a great ex- fate of this argument. Everytent was a cheek professing the same religion, and up to a very laws offered the free course of trade re- to s cent • period possessing a common history. In their upon its growth and the magnitude of that power on impediment which these schools ofEngland, and the same lessons were taught as in those which their naval magnitude depended. The real quea '4"giand. and by th e i r fi re s id es mothers instilled into I tion was this—would the repeal of the navigation-laws their children's minds the same moral instruction. An I injure their commercial marine, which was the mainstay theunreatricted maritime and c ommercial alliance between l of the Royal Navy? If he thought there were any should not English and the United States was of far more im- 1 serious apprehg-nsions arising on that point he Porta/I,e than it wa s , • an it would be with any other. When it vote for this Bill but not entertaining a doubt upon it . considered sin gle British d that in the year 1759 there was not a , he had made up his mind to support it.—(Hear, hear.) merchant who possessed an acre of His Right Hon, Friend the Member for Oxford had laid A down two principles, both of which be maintained with consummate ability—first, that commerce was the foundation of the commercial marine; and, secondly, that ships did not create commerce, but followed it. When they gore facility to tee free importation of corn in 1847, a difficulty erne. upon fhe eperatien of the navigation-laws, but they were ultimately suspended with regard to corn. The suspension produced the eff:ct which was intended, by diminishing the price of all the corn incident upon a large importation. And were Prussia, Russia, and America the earth rs? So far from thtir being so, the ships of Great Britain imported it in a much larger ratio than those of any other countries; and as to the number of British seamen, returns showed that they had increased during the interval. The ab surdities which prevailed in these laws with respect to the prohibitions of importations from certain ports abroad constituted some of the principal objections to them. Thus, a merchant could not bring a cargo of cochineal from the Canary Islands, because they were deemed, for all the purposes of the Act, to he a part of Africa. So with regard to an importation of Ma deira wine from Lisbon. Then, again, Bordeaux was the greatest emporium of dyes and gums, the produce of the French territory of Senegal; yet the merchant could not bring over the smallest quantity of them.— (hear, hear.) The same rule applied also to Antwerp, Amsterdam, Rolland, awl all the Orientaland Dutch goods; and be was satisfied that the impediments to the free course of trade, as experienced by the mer chants of this country under the navigation laws, con stituted a loss to them which must be compensated for by charging extra prices to the consumer.—(Hear, hear.) So that the indirect effect of these restrictions it was impossible to estimate.—(Hear, hear.) Passing from merchants to manufacturers, the Hoe. Member for Manchester wee anxious, on behalf of his constituents, for the growth of cotton in India. The native Indians fought their battles iu the field, with a heroism which rendered them not unworthy of an alliance with British soldiers. Hindoo seamen and lascars, when a full com plement of men could not be obtained, helped to man their ships, but had to be sent back to India at the ex pense of the consignee, because the laws did not recog nise them as British seamen.—(Hear, hear.) Let them take the instances of wool and copper from Australia, or of cotton from New Orleans. It frequently happened that when the demand in Great Britain for these com modities was intense, the navigation-laws stepped in and offered an impediment, while the importation was most desirable. Their manufacturers were in this way placed under great disadvantages, but the law did not stop there. It imposed still greater ones. It allowed fre quently an importation of the manufactured, but not of the raw material. Thus, they would not allow the im portation of foreign woods from Europe, though they allowed it when made into furniture, very mischievously to the interests of the manufacturer in this country.— (Hear, hear.) With regard to the effect on the Colo• nies, the Honourable Member for Stamford had objected that the colonies had not remonstrated generally. He thought that Australia had remonstrated, Ceylon cer tainly had, and Trinidad for very cogent reasons. Ja maica, a year or two ago, was well known to have done so.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) And from what had since taken place, there seemed to be no reason to doubt that it intended to do so.—(Hear.) It appeared to him that no time should be lost in passing the Bill; because as it was not possible to retain the Canadas, for instance, by unneces sar y res t ra i n t, h a ving placed their produce in the market on terms of equality with that of America, if they did not put their means of importation on the same equality, they must not b© surprised to find them availing themselves of any means of resistance they had. Mr. Bancroft, in his history of the American States, said that the navigation-laws contained the seeds of American independence. Mr. Huskisson confirmed that opinion, and illustrated it by another topic, viz., the resistance made by the Irish to the attempt to put Ireland under this navigation lew; so odious and degrading did they consider the exemption in reference to themselves. That was a warning which they would do well to keep in mind. He would now briefly inquire whether these laws were favourable to shipping. First, the shipowner was prevented from making repairs at a foreign port beyond the rate of 20s. per ton ; and there were several enactments, vexatious in their operation, with respect to operatives. The British sailor did not derive benefit from them, on the contrary, he would im prove his condition by that repeal. He was convinced that seamen would receive higher wages after the repeal, and that in other respects his situation would be more tolerable. There remained now only the British cone sumer to consider, in speaking of the probable results of this measure. As a consumer of luxuries, the price to him of tobacco, spirit, &e., was enhanced. Upon the whole, looking at the great classes of this community, he was convinced that these navigation-laws were not conducive to their interest.—(Hear.) At one time it appeared desirable that British shipping should be built at Bombay, in relation to:economy, the:rate of wages being extremely low there ; and when he had the honour of being connected with the Admiralty, he recollected the question arose, whether it would be cheaper to build. ships in England or at Bombay; and it was resolved, all things considered, that it was cheaper to build them in England. In the carrying trade their shipping was all over the world, and in Ham burgh, in 1847, the number of British ships was double those of Hamburgh and Bre men. In 1821 the British shipping in foreign ports was 64 per cent., and by a recent return it increased from 64 to 83 per cent. He did not agree with an Hon. Friend of his in the views which he took of this subject in rela tion to considerations of economy, holding as he (Sir James Graham) (lid, that monopoly in shipbuilding was as objectionable as any other description of monopoly.— (Hear.) He could not but refer to the opinions of Mr. George Young on this subject. That gentleman had said that he felt convinced that the capital employed in shipping had produced a smaller amount of return for the last 25 years, than in any other branch of industry in this country; and his Right Honourable Friend, the Member for Stamford (Mr. Herries), had said, if e=ver a change were to be made, that the present was the time to make it. Now, coals were imported into this country duty free; cotton was imported into it duty free; wool was imported into it duty free; every article of first necessity was imported into it duty free; the trade with China was extended; and, if wages were diminished, it should not be forgotten that, coincidently with those things, the price of every article of food was diminished. He (Sir James Graham) therefore said, there never was a time when a change could be made with less injury to the shipping interest. In the whale fishery, it appeared that they had exhausted the Arctic se;s, and a gentleman who had been engaged largely in that trade—Mr. Enderby—was about to betake himself, on considerations of saving, to the Antarctic regions, and to locate himself there, and to strike and ply his har poon in the frozen seas. So much for the state of the shipping interests. Hon. Gentlemen, and more par ticularly the Member for Stamford, had stated that the proposed measure would prove fatal to agri cultural and commercial interests, and one Hon. Gentle man had said that the working classes would suffer ex tremely by it. Now, if that was the opinion of those Gentlemen, he could not for a moment account why they did not at once bring the question before the House.— (Hear,hear.) If it was necessary to retrace their steps, why such delay? The Right Hon. Baronet having re ferred to opinions delivered by Lord Stanley on the first evening of the session, in opposition to the doctrines and measures of free trade—doctrines against which the Noble Lord protested—and against which he called upon those who thought with him to make their election, re marking, that he was the uncompromising supporter of protection, proceeded to say, that the measure which the House was now discaseing was the necessary column to the capital of the measure of free trade; here issue was joined, and here the struggle must take place, between reaction on the one hand and free trade on the other. He was now dealing with the political views of the question, and all those historical and economical views of it were, in his mind, as light as dust in compa rison; and so tar from regretting the part which he had taken in the matter and advancement of free trade, he most firmly believed that the peace and tranquillity of this country and the safety of their institutions, in the year just past, were attributable to the measure to which he had just alluded.—(Hear, hear.) Ile was satisfied that the idea of going back to protection would, if at tempted to be put into practice, prove a dangerous expe riment, leading to inevitable convulsion and its conse quences. At all events, his part was taken; he was opposed to reaction and favourable to progress, and on those grounds it was that he should give his most un qualified support to the measure now before the House, and expressed a hope that it would be successful.—( Hear, hear, and enthusiastic cheers, amidst which the Right Hon. Baronet resumed his seat.) Mr. T. BARING agreed that it was necessary to apply practical remedies to practical grievances. As one of the mercantile classes, he felt that restrictions were injurious to trade, and that it was a desirable object that tho importing merchants should have the liberty of importing what they thought proper. The difficulties of the question were very great. The Hon. Member referred to a treaty which we entered into with Austria, the operation of which was much to the disadvantage of the shipping interest of this country, and said the ques tion now was, whether the repeal of the navigation-laws was desirable and necessary. It had been said that the colonies had memorialised in favour of repeal; but he denied that—he denied that the Mauritius and several other colonies had,memorialised for it; and with respect to what had been said in relation to the feeling of the West Indies on the subject, he was glad to say that a change had taken place in the state !of opi nion there.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to Portugal, Prussia, and Russia, he must say that he did not regard their threats in relation to the maintenance of the navi gation-laws; tt—oac+WflooatWashvahata:el ewit: restrictionsphowotoremaueew rklreesdieetnn rragttsi eih a ivytwne n fietro d ohipotn. truhimrh w sonileemndg l -miceßan affectingivitone tn g tpt u huih a ooget r ffn a t etß n hahr t ei see Englishi ,lre repeal, t n h ho e r we oabft wouldsetinto those os a e ask , had the e execution? thelaw HsothusaHouse g foreigners, treiess guarantee shipowners Bill?a n against i n th s Tw et shippinghht ehaot removal ee theym othreats?val interestso maintenance pos sessed of advantage, and the granting unto those who had nothing to lose and nothing to give, facilities in carrying on trade in a spirit of competition against them. Sweden, for instance, was one of those powers. Let us take Holland next. What does she give? The trade with Java is in the hands of a commercial com pany, and they might decline agreeing with the propo sition of this Government—yet England could not refuse Sweden or Holland the terms of this Bill. H e was free to admit that much benefit would accrue to this country if the United States would coincide, accord. in , / to the representation of Mr. Bancroft, with the pro doubt. positions of the Government; but the contrary is now placed beyond His opinion, andhebelieved the cmitnh t a r t y, o w le as m a e g r a c i a n , s a t il t e hi m s measure, arine, th e an g d re h a e t , hoped , who were determined to support the therefore, l fo l i r u e fwark of the nation, would not be totally over looked pi n ion b e; d—lf I feel any difficulty in Lord J. RUSSELL sat those third reading of this Bill.. addressing the House upon the present occasion, it THE, SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING. APRIL 24, 1849. arises from the consciousness that the whole argument in favour of the Bill now before the House has been exhausted by the masterly speech of the Right lion. Baronet the Member for Ripon.--(Hear, hear.) He wen so ccmple!ely through the argument., aid touched on all parts of it in so convincing a manner, and he has keen w little answered by the Hon. Gentleman who last spoke, that I feel great difficulty in addressing the House on this subject. Nevertheless, having a deep sense of the importance of this question, and feeling that, after a year of delay, after an inquiry by a Com mittee of the House of Commons, and by a Committee of the House of Lords, and after the measure has been twice recommended in the speech from the throne, it is high time that our deliberations on this subject should end in a settlement of this question, I em induced to address the House before it goes to a division on the su'ject. I was glal to hear the Honourable Gentleman who spoke last admit in a somewhat different spirit from that evinced by the Honourable and Learned Member for Midhurst that all restrictions of themselves required defence; that there must be a strong case made out for them; and that consequently the burden of proof lies on those v..ho attempt to support them. Every one, I think, must admit that it is no crime for a person to wish to bring wool from Australia .to supply our manu facturers in a Bremen ship, and that there is no moral guilt in attempting to bring hides from Holland, and na turally no sin in attempting to introduce Americaa cotton from Havre. The only crime, tten, must consist in the violation of your prohibitory law, and that prohibitory law must require strong grounds for its defence.— (flear, hear.) This question has been treated by the Hon. and Learned Member for Midhurst in a speech of great ability as one to be divided historically, economi cally, and nationally ; but I do not think that on any of these grounds there is a sufficient defence for the present state of the law. lam aware that the law has been al most worshipped as the charta maritime of this country and that much of its prosperity and commerce has been attributed to the law, and •that it bas been thought profanation to alter it. But in my judgment that opinion is founded in error, and at no time has this law been essentially advantageous to this country. — (Hear, hear.) Let us look to its origin. Did it arise from any views of commercial wisdom, or from any of these views of protection which are now said to be so conducive to our prosperity? It arose from a wish on the part.of the Protector Cromwell, inspired on the occa sion by the enmity and indignation of St. John against the Dutch, to cripple and destroy the commercial marine of Holland; and so little did the law answer in any other view that the Right Hon. Member for Ripon quoted correctly Roger, Coke, and various other writers who followed in the course of a century, showing that the na vigation laws, in a commercial point of consideration, were most injurious to this country.—(Hear, hear.) Whether it was our interest to destroy the navigation of Holland at that time we need not now much discuss; but we do know that 40 years afterwards it was the chief ob- ject of our policy to maintain the power of Holland, and effect with that country the most close and intimate alliance.—(Hear, hear.) What was the next effect which we find produced historically by the navigation-laws and the restrictions connected with them. We find that the vexatious and intolerable nature of these restrictions provoked the loyal and attached triends of the British connexion in America to resistance.—(Hear, hear.) What next was the effect of regulations of a similar kind? You prohibited Ireland from trading with any of your colonies. You fettered her by the most severe re strictive regulations; you produced resistance in Ireland; and it was only by abandoning those regulations that you succeeded in pacifying Ireland. I say, therefore, that in a historical point of view the provisions of the navigation laws have been mischievous, an d not condu cive to her welfare. Then, Sir, in an economical view, I think there is almost a confession—a Confession by the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last , a confession by the chief of those authors who have defended the system —that, economically, the regulations must be injurious, that these restrictions must tend to diminish the wealth of the country, and that no other defence can be found for them but their tendency to promote our naval power. I need not, therefore, go into the various matters in which the present laws are injurious. These have been shown in evidence, before the Committee. They have been shown, in various instances, to have delayed and obstructed the commerce of this country. But then it is said, that whatever may be the injury which our commerce has suffered,`; however unwise those restric tions may be in a commercial point of view, they have tended to keep up a commercial marine, from which the navy of this country has derived its resources and its strength. Now, I think there are many reasons for doubting that assertion; and I call it an assertion be cause, after all the argument and all the evidence from men of high naval authority, or from persons of high Economical authority—from Adam Smith—from those who have taken part in this debate, I see nothing like regulations; I see noth in g proof that our navy derimveodreittshasntreanngathssfe'rrotimonththosaet here are regulations which tend to monopoly, and, b ._ e ( b L e o n o efi d c o i r a i l es to of the,‘Hecaortr hear.") Let us see what, on the ot her hand, are the reasons for marine therefore, of d ou bting the truth of this assertio n . In the first in stance, there is the character of our people, eminently a tt a ched to naval pursuits, readily embracing the marine t t h h i e s y c o must country.—(Loud as a profession distinguished among the nations of the world as a naval people. I own I was astonished to hear the Honourable Gentleman who spoke last, complain that if wo pass this Bill, we oblige the shipowners of this country to employ inferior workmen.—(Hear, hear.) I ask him, why inferior workmen ?—(Hear, hear.) lam told that a great portion of the commercial marine of the United States, of which many are so jealous, con sists of those very -British seamen whom you now call inferior workmen.—(Hear, hear.) What, is it, then, that has made the meaters and the seamen of our British commercial marine in any way inferior ? What is it that has tended to cripple their energies, or to diminish their skill ? What can it be but the coastant invariable effect of protective laws—(Hear, hear)—and of telling men " Do not trust to your own energies, do not trust to your own powers, because, in default of industry—in default of skill —we will give you a law which will protect you against all competition ?" (Hear, hear.) And yet, in spite of these "inferior workmen," we know, that in 1848 236,000 men belonged to the commercial marine of England—(Elear, hear)—we know—we must know that that is not a number which could be produced ( hear.) But what is the among a nation th a t was not essent i a ll y a n ation loving the marine as a pr o f ess i on, and em i nent am ong the na tions in that r es p e ct.—Hear, next reason? W e were told, I remem b er , about 1824 and 1826, that Mr. H us ki sson had i ntro d uc ed measures which would totally ru i n the commerc i a l m arine of this country—(Hear, hear)—that the shipping must be ut terly destroyed—(Hear, hear)—that the state of distress was something which had scarcely ever been paralleled , and that it was Owing to his measures. Now t h ose measures did, to a very great degree, int roduce com petition with oth er nat i ons; they gav e reciprocity in some instances —they did away with restrictions without reciprocity in others; and what has been the consequence? I have here the tonnage of the Bri tish empire as it stood in 1823, in 1840, and in 1849 —I will trouble the House with only those num bers; our tonnage in 1823 was 2,506,760, in 1840 3,226,684, in 1849 4 ,052,160, That is the mode in which the tonnage of this empire has increased under this sys tem of modified competition. In the same period the number of men employed has risen from 165,000 to 236,000. I say this is a reason for believing that we can stand competition' and that we may go further in that course.—(llear, hear.) The Honourable Member for Midhurst (Mr. W a l po l e) admitted that the plans of Mr. Huskisson were success f u l, t h at th e r e had been a great increase in the amount o f tonnage and number of men, but he said—" As you have been so successful, stand where you are; you have succeeded, you are going on well, and therefore be contented -with the position which you have reached." Now that is not my mode e of considering questions of this kind.—(Hear, hear.) consider that if you have made an experiment in one successful, direction, and it has been eminently and at the same time has been a cautious experiment, that is a reason for going further in t he same direction — (Hear, hear)—a reason for greater progress— (Hear, hear)—to be attended, as I trust, w ith still greater t h a t we have already success than the measures for confidence that our commercial marine will not be taken.—(Hear, hear.) of the navigation laws. injured by the proposed repeal I have mentione . d two grounds I go to another ground, to w hich I do not see tha t t here can be an answer. It is, that not onl y is this amount of tonnage employed and this number of men in the trade of the United Kingdom, but a great portion of it is employed in a trade in which we have no protection whatever—in the carrying trade to Russia, to Trieste, and to parts of Austria, where we meet the other nations of the globe, and where those nations, be they , Swedes or be they Amer i cans , if they have such an ad vantage as is said, would drive us out of the trade and disable us from such competition.—(Hear, hear.) I do not really see what answer there can be to this state ment.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Hew is it that some say that the Swedes and Norwegians navigate so cheaply and are paid such very low wages, and the same gentleman, or others, say that the Americans receive such .high wages, and their ships are manned so p n o t w h n e e other hand, that, with rl the British master, is to well, that they-ehe IB must beat us? Whatever the case i s , we aruto b l e d the energies of. this country left co m pl e t e l y f ree , you have not to dr end the competition of any nation upon the htehaatten.. rhietilsiehves,hoi globe.—(Heat; hear.) I believe —and I by no means regret—that foreign shipping will increase, as it has increissed in past years ; but _ I believe that British shipping will increase in a manner com mensurate, or probably in a greater proportion, and that the only result will be a general increase in the com merce of thins country and of the world.—(Hear, hear.) We are told that the manner in which we have proposed this Bill is a conclusive argument against our suc ceeding; b'ut I was happy that the Honourable Gen tleman who spoke last, who no doubt, with his expe rience, has considered the measure in all its details, fully col warred in the opinion we entertain, that a Bill fr smed on strict grounds of reciprocity — a Bill e .eclaring that you must follow other nations in every pa rticular—would lead into inextricable difficul ties, and. that it would not have been wise to propose it. — (les r.) If that is the case, what other course could we tak a, with our opinions, than proposing a total repeal of thes lasis, leaving it to the Queen in Council to exer cise a power, if it shall be thought fit, of imposing upon other nations restrictions which they impose upon us.— (Flere.e) In retaining that power, which we have by our present law, I quite agree with the Right Hon. Gentlem e n (Sir J. Graham), that in ordinary cases when you. attempt to impose a restriction, because a re striction is imposed upon you, you are injuring yourselves more than , obtaining any benefit; but there are cases where the restrict ion may be put on from national rivalry and national an imosity, cases in which in former instances we have s ucceeded by putting similar restrictions on other natiot is; and therefore I think the Crown should not be deprived of that power. But in many cases, such as the instre ice which has often been referred to, of the colony of T I eiuidad, I believe you might very safely give to Trinidad the trade with Venezuela in ships not built in Venezuela, and which aro prohibited fr'eur trading with Trinidad by the prestmt navigation-laws, even though you can have no equivalent advantage on the other side.—(llear, hear.) We are told that We shall not obtain from foreign nations similar advantages. The information that I derive from the papers laid before Parliament is of a totally different kind.—(Hear, hear.) I conclude that, with respect to the greater part of the nations of Europe and of the world, we shall obtain fair and equal terms of navigation with those countries, pro vided we are ready to give those terms to them.—(Hear.) Nobody can doubt it with regard to the United States of America; no one can doubt it with regard to Prussia, or Russia, or Austria,. Indeed, I think the nations which will not be prepared to give those equal terms, reduce themselves to some three or four—to France, Spain, and Belgium, and perhaps one other ; the list can hardly be extended beyond that.—(Hear, hear.) But let us tike the opposite case—let us take the case that this Bill is re- jected, and that you wait for some years before you take any measure; what will be the case then? Prussia has ;old us (I do not consider it a threat, I consider it a fair leclaraticn), " If you continue these restrictions, if you hink them wise, I will copy your wisdom, and give you the same terms that you giie me." I cannot see that there is anything offensive in that, or that we have any reason to complain of such a declaration.—(Hear. hear.) Russia has already proclaimed the same thing; she has proclaimed, with regard to other nations, that she will impose upon them the restrictions they impose upon her shipping, but she will not do Iso with regard to England because she has a treaty with England; and how lung does that treaty last? It expires in 1851; and from that time Russia will be at liberty to impose restrictions upon us. Is it Vl ise to wait till you aro subject to them, and then endeavour to negotiate in order to take off those restrictions on both sides?—(Hear.) I remember that Mr. iluskisson held a very different, and, I think, a much wiser doctrine? I have here the words which he used, after speaking of what is now called the " threat from Prussia," and the conduct likely to be adopted by her, he said—" The immediate lesson which I derive from it is this, that it is a part of political wisdom, when danger is foreseen, not supinely to wait for its approach, but, as far as possible, to take timely measures for its pre vention."—(Hear, hear.) That is the course that we are now taking.—(Hear, hear.) We are told that there is no popular cry for this measure—that there is no de mand for it on the part of public opinion; but I think we are bound, if we see such dangers before us, if we have the information which enables us to judge, not to wait till the people of this country come to us complain ing and saying—" Our navigation is subject to restric tions, you knew that it would be so, you might have prevented it, it was your duty to settle these questions, but you have allowed this to come upon us, and you are to blame for the injury we are suffering."—(Hear, hear.) I ask the House, then, to agree to this Bill, and to endeavour to procure a settlement of this question. —(Hear.) lam the more impressed wit h the necessit y of arriving at the settlement we propose, from the considerations which have been adverted to by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham). He has quoted the statement of a Noble Lord, that, with respect to protec tion, we ought to retrace our steps. We know very well, not only that this is a declaration from a person of high authority and in a commanding position, but that in many parts of the country, from certain classes, a cry has been raised for a renewal of protection, not upon any trifling article, not upon any imported goods, with re spect to which the great mass of the people of this country can be indifferent, but they have asked at once for a renewed duty on the import of food.—(Hear, hear.) Now I beg Hon. Members to consider what would be the probable consequences of any attempt of that nature. — I am reminded of what the Right Hon. Gentleman said at the conclusion of his speech, when he stated that we were making agitators ; and he called upon us not to promote agitation, or irritate the minds of men. Now the agitation and irritation produced by our proposal to re peal the navigation laws are not very considerable or very alarming—according to the opinion of any one. But if we were to declare that we were about again to impose a tax upon food ; that we were not satisfied with the low price of corn, then, I believe, we should have an agitation and an irritation of a very different description.—(Loud cheers.) I believe that you would then have the mass, the great mass of the people who are now quiet and contented—(lronical cheers from the Protectionists, and counter cheers from the Ministerial trenches)—l again repeat it, " who are now quiet and contented," and I rejoice that they are enabled—with regard to articles both of necessary food, and of those slight comforts which they enjoy—that they are enabled to purchase them at lower rates than perhaps they have been able to procure them in the memory of man in this country—of any one now living. I believe that if you were to proclaim that you were about to impose a tax upon the importation of corn, that these classes would agitate from the fear of the suffer ings which they would bare to endure, and of the scarcity which you by your legislation would attempt to expose them to.—(Cheers.) Who would feel the benefit of such a state of thing? The farmers, you tell us, are asking for a duty upon corn. If that duty were small an advantage would be gained to the revenue. But a protection, to be effectual, in the opinion of the farmers, must not be the protection of a small duty, and no benefit would be derived from it. If any benefit is to be derived by them we ate told it must be by a high duty; but is it imagined that there could be imposed upon the nation a high duty upon corn ? In the present state cf this country does any man imagine that, even although this House, by a ma jority of four to one should pass such a law, and if it should pass the House of Lords w ithout a dissentient voice being raised against it, does any one believe that such a law could be maintained and enforced in this country?—(Loud cheers.) Well. Sir, then I ask this House, do not, by the rejection, give a signal for fresh and renewed agitation ors the subject of the corn-laws. Like the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Ripon, I rejoice in the tranquillity with which we passed through a year remarkable in its revolutions and con vulsiots, in almost every country in Europe. I believe that there were three things that contributed mainly to your tranquillity, to the preservation of confidence, and to the loyalty of the people. I believe that the first of these causes was the attachment of the people to the form of their own ancient institutions, and in the next place that it was very much owing to the removal of those grosser abuses in the representation of the people which the Reform Act proposed and carried under the Admi nistration of Lord Grey.—(Hear.) I believe that if you had had such flagrant abuses as Gatton and Old Sarum that what might have been a call for reform would have swelled into a cry for revolution.—(Hear, hear.) I be lieve the third reason why the people were so tranquil during the agitation of the past year was that the grievances which they felt from the high price of food, caused by your legislation, had been removed, and that by the Act of 1846 there had been removed all the im pedimenta by which the people were prevented from pro curing that food as cheaply as it could be introduced from every foreign nation.—(Hear, hear.) I-believe that to these three circumstances you are indebted mainly for the position in which you stand—a position which is gratifying to every native of this country—and a posi tion which is conspicuous among all the nations of the world. I ask you to maintain that position by the means by which you acquired it.—(Cheers and counter . cheers.) I ask you not to refuse a reform w hi c h is pointed . out by reason which is the result of inq uir y and which in conformity with the principle that Parliament has already deliberately adopted. If, on the other and - t h h e e nd c , o y u o rs u a announce t thaton if you e ara boutindu induce men m p e u li rsa to think that yen doubt of the soundness of those y rincie pl e s that you have adopted , if t he o p inion p revails that the shipping interest is not alone to be left as the sole protected interest in the country, and that you are about away,torestore me then helant commenced the op youw protection eilrla w t i boehi operation, ,gh giving Parliament f the si whichhas gn ayl fortakenouai w lnl agitation of which indeed you may have been proved of having not see the end without the deepest regret and sorrow.— "Loud cheers.) Mr. DISRAELI—There are only two considerations which lead me to address the House at this late hour (a quarter past twelve), and these are the general desire of the House that the debate should terminate to-night— (Cheers)—and the remembrance on my part that I shall not trouble them for more than a few minutes. I have on another occasion entered more fully, with the indul gence of the House, in the discussion of this great ques tion; and I now only take the liberty of venturing to express the general feeling with which I shall give my vote on this occasion. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Ripon has told us that he considers the motion before the House to be in short the capital which is to be placed on the column that we have been so long engaged in raising. But if the column that we have raised be one that, in the symmetry of its outline and the general beauty of its design, has somewhat disap• pointed our 'expectation; if it is found when we have raised it that it does not realise the expectations of our creative fancy, then wo may fairly hesitate before we in cur the additional outlay of raising an expensive capital upon a column of an ill-fashione design.—(Cheers.) This is an oratorical illustration which placed the matter in its right light. The Government measure appears to be brought forward to realise a theory.—(Cheers and a laugh.) You are called upon to deal with an important interest not from any popular appeal, or apprehensions of a great national grievance, but because, you are told that the repeal of the navigation code of England is to complete a great experiment. But we say that the time which has been appealed to this evening has tested that experiment. We believe and imagine that that experi ment has failed, and the argument wkieh—you urged with such effect twelve months ago in favour of a pro position which was necessary to complete an experiment that had not then failed does not tell this session with the same effect when the Right Honourable Member for Ripon, who denied that reaction could ever occur, admitted that reaction and progress were analagous, and when the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) has deprecated a change of the agricultural system in con sequence of the distress and discontent which he said it would occasion.—(Cheers.) You have brought forward your plan - on theory, and it is necessary you should have a case to support it. What dil you do? You made a case. With a foregone conclusion y ou nominated a Com mitteeti of inquiry, a Committee which you w ill permit me to say, has not conducte d its investigations _in Committees of this House.—(Elear, he . o sooner had have you had this Committee of inquiry —tifyn a decision it gone about collecting evidence toj i : was found that that had already been adopted, than manner which has generally raised the character a ß r a u c t t n e or sooner the case was not auonthere incon venience which you alleged the c It was, therefore, necessary to give coun try was enduring . colour to the changes which you were about to another b r bring forward, end ultimately (I think I state it fairly), to to ju ju si s i t f i y fy yo y u uu wit w h i p t r h ac t t h i e c o al re m ti e o n al , sufficiently su b s t a ntiated omoroe of by this the your av your en. e case, e, rested theory upon h three wwaass nience, colonial discontent, and foreign menace. Well, twelve months elapsed, and this subject was very deeply and,: carefully considered. We are now much more emu- petent to form an opinion than we were two years ago, Touching but lightly, as lam obliged to do at this hour, and how does the. case stand? Your theory has blown I have eiven you reseon to see how—when their theory up, and your ea 2e bee broken down.—(Letighter.) had eseotee uppepular, es it has, by the consent of the Your ferst ease of eominersial ineouvenienee was said lesible Lord, with a great part of the public—their facti• to be in the high freights welch were paid by the con- tious ease has entirely melted away under discussion sumors in England, in consequence, as you said, of the and the influence of time and truth.—(Hear.) Of all restrictions placed upon the shipping by the navigation the pleas brought forward for this great change, take any laws. But the last thesis we heard maintained by an one singly, and who would recommend it ? On the Hon. Member, who is supposed by some Gentlemen to plea of commercial ineonvenitatee of the heavy amount ho a great authority—l mean the lion. Member for of freights, a member of the Government has proved Westbury - (Mr. Wilson) was, that these restrict ens that they are not higher in England than anywhere else. have not raised freights at all.—(A laugh..) I t has Your only case is the case of Canada, that asks for a been shown that the eases in which they have that elf. et ss. duty. Would you recommend it on that single ground, are exceptional cases. I did not expect to hear again or on the plea of continental menace and foreign compe until I heard from the light Hen. Gentleman the Mem- tition? Your strongest continental point is Prussia, and ber for Ripon, to-night, of the celebrated cochineal case. Prussia does not exist as a Government.—(H ear , hear.) "Ground nuts," I believe, the Rght Hon. Gentleman But it is not any of these singly, it is the aggre forgot.—(A laugh.) But he told us himself hoer these gate of these pleas that is to be the foundation of petty and exceptional inconveniences could be met. One this revolution.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") You got Gentleman had given us to-night a list of enumerated up your case in a hurry, and you attempted to pass it articles which may be applied to the long voyage trade, last year before it was understood. Dust was thrown to remove all those inconveniences. \Vie n the Right into the eyes of the public by your talk about the prin- Hon. Gentleman the Member for the Univers ty of Ox- ciples of free trade, with which they were still bewil ford (Mr. Gladstone), omitted to bring forward those der, d; about the discontent of the colonies and the propositions which we all looked for, I eas surprised to menaces of foreign powers; and on every occasion they hear the Right Hon. Gentleman say, on the authority of were told that it was necessary to what the Noble Lord some anonymous paragraph, that it was quite evident the usually calls the "settlement of the question."—(A shipowners would never consent to any change. I regret laugh.) And what is this perpetual sett!ement of the ted to hear that observation made by the Right Hon. Gen- question? It is to settle the questions that you have tleman, because I know it has produced a very injuriousef- yourselves unsettled.— (Cheers.) The Noble Lord looks feet in many quarters, giving evidence on the part of the about for a question for the session, and he finds among shipowners of this country of bigoted obstinacy, and, his trading allies some etude jejune theory. He takes coming from so high an authority as the liSght Hen. up the theory; there is immediate agitation; and having Gentleman, naturally not being doubted for its accuracy. produced agitation, he comes forward as a great states -(Heir.) I happ en t o h o ld in my hand the last report man to apeease it.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) That of the Shipowners' Soci e ty, dated the sth of March of is the whole policy of the Whig C'suvernment.— this year; and what do I read in the conclusion of their (Cheers and laughter.) Bat then they have a great address to the people of this country? They here ex- all) with whom they are perfectly satisfied—the Right press their readiness to discu ss , at the proper time, fully lion. Gentleman who has decidt d between reaction and impartially, all questions bearing on the practical and progress, and is determined to stand by pro amendment of the navigation-laws—they consider them- gress.—(A laugh.) But progress to what ? progress selves precluded from now offering any special sugges- to paradise or progress to the devil?—(Loud cheers Ind tions; but guided, they observe, by principle, they avow laughter.) The people of England do not want to hear they will be ready hereafter frankly to state their opi- any longer those indefinite windy phrases of progress. nions, impartially to weigh those of others, and to con- —(Hear, hear.) They want to know what you are pro cede with liberality when they cannot convince on all grossing to—what you are at—what you mean to accom points not involving fundamental principles.—(Hear, plish; and then they will calmly weigh whether that hear.) Now, after such an expression of opinion, so which you have promised is not more than you can pay. recently made by so important a society on this sub- —(Hear, hear.) We want, in short, to know from the ject, I must express ny surprise that the Eight Honour- disciples of progress what they are after. The Man able Gentleman should have lent the high authority of chester school are men, they tell us frankly what they his justly influential name to the expression of an are after.—(Hear, hear.) They have told us they will opinion of so contrary and injurious a character.-- attack the Church, destroy the land tenure, completely (Hear, hear.) Well, then, what comes of the case of change the electoral law, and do a number of other colonial discontent? I cannot understand, though I have things that may be perilous, that may be fatal to the listened with great attention to this debate, that the country, but at least, when advocating with them, we instances adduced this year on that head much enrich know what we are about; we deal with manly foes, and the factitious case of the Government. True it has been we hope and believe that we shall defeat them.—(Loud shown, and no one has denied, that there was on the cheers.) But these dilettante disciples of progress are very part of the English colonies, a feeling snore or less dangerous opponents; and I shall extremely regret that diffused that the repeal of the navigation-laws would one such mind, practical and experienced as the Right operate some advantage in their f a v ou r. The H o n. Hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Graham), is determined to take Baronet referred to the memorial from Australia—a his stand where he is —(A laugh)—because I, from this memorial which I believe has never been presented to moment, must express my reluctant regret, that where the House. It is not a new document. I alluded to it be is in consequence he will remain. —(A laugh.) The last year in some observations I took the liberty of Right Honourable Gentleman the Member for Ripon making, because it so happtned that in consequence of cannot acknowledge that public opinion is against this that memorial I received from the harbour-masters of proposition of the Government, because he says he does the ports in that part of the world statements which not find the Members for the outports against it. The were afterwards given on oath before the House of Lords, Right Honourable Gentleman seems to hold the right of from which it appeared that between the Ist of January, petition in great contempt. He says, " I find the Mem -1846, and the 30th of June, 1847, sixty-one ships cleared hers for these outports voting for the measure," though from London for Sydney, of which eighteen loaded with theirhe constituents are calling upon the House to reject a cargo home, and the other forty three proceeded to propos t iton.—(Her hear.) The Right Honourable other places in search of freight. Within the same Gentleman says, " Where are the two Members for period twenty-seven vessels cleared for Hobart Town; Liverpool ? Are not their names in the majority ? The fourteen loaded home—the others came home in ballast; Members for Glasgow, they also support, notwithstand twenty-five cleared to Port Philip; twelve came home ing the petitions from that city, the measure of the Go with cargoes, the other thirteen without. Between vernment. But it is possible men may have been November, 1846, and June, 1847, twenty-one cleared elected by constituencies wihout any frank or detailed ex for Port Adelaide from London, of which seven only oh- position of their opinions on the subject.—(Hear.) Men tained cargo. I want to know who, in the face of such may have been sent to this House—as lam sorry to facts as those, can argue that our colonies are suffering say my experience of the last few years shows can be from want of ships, or that any alteration in the naviga- done—pledged to support a particnlar policy, and when tion-laws can supply them with carrying at a cheaper they have come here they may have opposed it.— rate. I will not dwell en the West India colonies, be- (Cheers.) I do not know what passed between the cause the Government feel that that part of the case has Members for Liverpool and their constituents at the last already broken down. If this question was settled last election. It is possible that between them and their year there might have been some argument on the part constituents no communication took place on the subject of those colonies; but the Government admit in the of the navigation-laws. If so, it was a great neglect on same breath that the feeling in those colonies is very the part of the electors of Liverpool, and they deserve much reversed. True that in Trinidad there is the old the treatment they have received.—(Loud laughter.) feeling in favour of repeal—by the bye, there was a me- With regard to the Member for Glasgow, I have reason tnorial from Guiana in favour of the repeal of the na- to believe that the misconception is of a more unfortu vigation-laws; but it is generally understood in this nate nature, because I have been informed that the House that the moment the West India colonies found Honourable Gentleman had a very frank communication that the change in the navigation laws would not alter with his constituents, and left them with an undoubted their relative position in the market with Cuba and the impression that he was coming to London to vote other Spanish colonies, all desire for such a change against this BilL—(Hear, hear.) I have no doubt ceased.—(Hear, hear.) One important case—the most the Honourable Gentleman has good reason for important—that o f C a nada, remains behind; but that changing his opinion; but when he is confronted here has been treated to night in a manner that will not soon with the assertion that the opinion of Glasgow— be forgotten in this country.—(Hear, hear.) True it is which is most hostile to this measure—cannot be that the Legislative Assembly of Canada has petitioned opposed to it because its Members have voted for it, lam the Crown in favour of the repeal of the navigation- justified in referring to these well-known facts.—(Hear, laws; but in the same document the same assembly has hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Graham), required justice to its industry—in the same document in the third place, thought fit to change the whole tone the same assembly has required the re-institution of that of the debate by referring to a speech delivered by a ss. duty which they enjoyed—(Hear)—and if that docu- Noble Lord in another place. He has, as it were, meet is in the hands of the Government, no argument in changed the venue on the issue before us.—(Hear, hear.) favour of repeal of the navigation-laws can be drawn It was not the navigation-laws of England, but the corn that by the surest rules of logic is not equally an argu- law of England, that was brought upon the carpet; and ment in favour of the ss. duty.—(Hear, hear.) But we it was not so much the act of a Government that does have been informed by a high authority on this subject exist as the possible existence of a Government that does to-night, that if the ss. duty is not given back to Canada, not exist that excited the fervid oratory and impassioned in all probability Canada will cease to belong to the els quence of the Right Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear, hear, British Crown. What great responsibility, then, was and a laugh.) The Right Hon. Gentleman was some there in that statesman who counselled you to disturb what inconsistent in his taunts. Re said—" If you the arrangement you had made with respect to the im- doubt the wisdom of the policy which lam proud to portation of corn from Canada; and is it possible that have had a part in carrying, why do you not come for any one can believe—and still least of alt I should have ward and challenge its propriety? Why not ask us to expected the Right Honourable Member for Ripon— retrace our steps?" And then, immediatelyafter, theleight that any paltry change in your navigation-laws Hon. Gentleman says, "I look upon this division to can reconcile the people of Canada to your night as a stand-up fight, upon the question whether rule, which they feel has taken away that protection (Isis Government shall advance or whether it shall retro from their industry, and has in fact virtually dis grade; and I regard the whole protection system as at solved every political tie that subsisted between you? — stake to-ni g ht." If that be the case, if that be the (Hear.) It is well the people of England should know struggle you are now going to enter upon, the Right to-morrow the solemn opinion of one of their greatest Hon. Gentleman is scarcely justified in saying we are public men. It is well they should know to-morrow that avoiding the contest.—(Cheers.) I can promise the they must be prepared for rebellion in Canada—that they Right Hon. Gentleman that he shall not have to COM must be proper, dto lose that proud possession of the plain that ample opportunities are not given him for yin- Crown, and mainly because the people of Canada have dicating the policy for which he is responsible—(Hear, been deprived of that just protection to their colonial hear)—but I for one wish to avail myself of the expo industry which they enjoyed.—(Hear, hear.) But rience of the last three years—it is a magic time; it saw I cannot believe that the people of England can for a the foundation of your changes; let them be nearly moment suppose their coming forward to offer the Ca- completed, and then we can decide upon your policy by nadians some shuffling change in the navigation code of the very test to which you appeal. The Hon. Gentle- England can be any compensation to the people of Ca- man the Member for Midhurst (Mr. Walpole) has called nada, who feel so acutely on this subject, arid who, ac- the attention of the House to the consideration of the cording to the Right Hon. Gentleman, are prepared to great stake that depends upon our votes this night. He act so decidedly.—(Hear, hear.) Well, the colonial case has reminded you of the large amount of capit a l in is not stronger this year. It rests on Canada, and on a vested in this trade. He has reminded you of the vast docutneat wich, if it ,proves anything, proves that the revenue expended thereby in the wages of labour. Let policy of the House of Commons is to protect the in- me remind you also of one statistical fact which is true, dustry of Canada.—(Hear, hear.) And what is the and which is most interesting. Take all the male opera foreign case? The Foreign-office has been extremely tives in all the factories of Great Britain, all adults, and busy on this subject, as if the Noble Lord 'vistaed to all beneath 18 years of age, and add them together, and prove to the continent that hereafter the House of Lords the total computation will not in number amount to the had little to do with the Government of this country. number of the merchant seamen of England.—(Hear, The moment Hon. Gentlemen come to a vote—which hear.) The interest, therefore, is a great interest.— even in this Parliament I have proved they have some- (Hear.) Called upon to effect this great change, let times repented, for already the majority has dwindled me remind you of some circumstances that have occurred down ~to half the amount--(Hear, hear)—a Secretary since the commencement of that term of three years of state instructs our diplomatic agents, from which has so often been referred to as the test of political Vienna to Vent zuela, to communicate with foreign Go- and economic truth. Since that term commenced the vernments on the reciprocal alteration of their maritime poor-rates of England have increased 17 per cent.; code, on the same principle that the year before we corn- since that term commenced, it appears by the municated with the Consuls of England for the purpose last returns of the property tax, the capital of obtaining the most authentic and accurate information of England has b een diminished more than respecting the bad conduct and qualities of English sea- 100,000,0001.; since that term commenced, it appears men.—(Hear.) And here I must say that the Hon. that the average increa se i n th e savings' banks has dimi- Member for Huntingdon was very much misrepresented nished exactly one-half.—(He a r, hear.) These, too, are by the Noble Lord, for the Noble Lord argued the case facts; these, too, are details of great interest in the dime as if my Hon. Friend had conceded that the masters and cession of these questions.—(Hear, hear.) If this be seamen cf our mercantile marine were guilty of the con- not the handwriting cn the wall, I know not where duct and deserved the calumnious expressions which we kings and senates are to seek the sources of warning and find in the official papers of the Government. But what admonition.—(Hear, hear.) I agree with the Right was the answer of foreign states to the invitation of Hon. Gentleman (Sir James Graham) that there is more the Foreign-office? The dispatch of the Prussian Minis- at stake upon your vote to-night even than the naviga ter holds out no prospect of coming to any arrangement, tion code of England, precious as it may be. You can no wish to enter into any negotiation; on the contrary, by your vote this night beat down that great statistical he adverts to the altered state of affairs, and says that, conspiracy that has so long tampered with the fortunes "in the position in which this country finds itself it is and trifled with the destinies of a great country.— impossible for us at present to enter into any arrange- (Cheers.) You can beat down that great statistical con ment with you;"—at the first blush, an excellent argu- spiracy that commenced its labours by proving that the meat for not precipitating alteration and passing this English peasant was a serf, and consistently continued measure. But I read that document in this way. To me them by demonstrating that the British sailor was a sot. it says, " Things are unsettled; but if the Whig Govern- —(Hear, hear.) If you by your vote to-night commend ment remains in office—if we succeed in our foreign po- your patriotic:labour to the grateful sympathy of a grate- Hey, and establish a national flag—if we appropriate the tut people, then will you, by the recollection of your past harbours of Schleswig-Holstein, of the Northern States, prosperity, by the memory of your still existing power, and mouths of the Elbe—if by the favour of the English for the sake of the most magnificent colonial empire in the Government we become an important maritime power— world, now drifting among thebreakers, for the sake of the then we shall be prepared to open negotiations with you, suffering commerce of Great Britain, by the wrongs of a and to stand upon our rights."—(Hear, hear.) It is un- betrayed agriculture, by the hopes of Ireland, w t ill a y d o e u . necessary that at this hour I should touch upon the not, by the vote you are now coming other continental powers, though every case is I think cision which may to morrow smooth . th to e'ca a r r e ri w v o e r a n conn ive faith and energy to native an additional argument in favour of our hesitating, and teriance of British l toil, g hope to the tortured in )address the against any precipitate movement. I must say a few labour , and at ast administer ( n L d e o a u v d o c u h r e e e d r t s o . words, of course, upon the remarkable case of the dustry of a suffering Er r e o m se pi a r n e. d — e bet, not be , i , ng: able _to obtain a hearing, he, United States. I would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman Mr. CAMPBELL the President of the Board of Trade if his Government House; RUSSELL E seconded hored t h th e e . moved that the debate had been last year in the same position with the United amiastloudcries of Divide I" States as it is at present, would he have brought forward be adjourned. Mr. Hon. Gentleman would this measure, or made the expression of opinion nte as it was very desirable that foreign states a part of his case? I waes flights t not persist in his motion, d the Lord M J. ° I F tU F G () a !: rn Go vernment ' the House should come to a division that night. other night with indulging in imaginat h i e v sometimes confidential, The motion for adjournment was withdrawn, and the sionally in reply by a member of t but when I vocal to mind the trilling and even house divided I always interesting, and occasional For the third solemn manner in which the Might ns of the Govern- Llonourable Gen- Against it reading 275 ••• tleman revealed the communications ••• a -.• •• which 2l4 m ost with the United Sta tes —the conversations in the The Bill was then read third e most irreg mann er were brought ular Maority —4l w ith Mr. Bancroft , forwsrd to influence the debate public document • and Mr. WAWN th en move d the i nsert i on o f the f o ll ow• and which never a pp eared in a p ;and ing clause :—And b e i t enacte d , that no B r i t i s h s hi p en when I recollect t hat this yea r all we know of the % t i es - gaged in the foreign trade, which shall have discharged its cargo at any port of the United Kingdom, shall be the United States and Mr. Bancroft is omitted from the elements - compelled, under the Act 6th Geo. 4, e. 125, to take markable cases I ever recollect, and shows us the ine pilot on board, while proceeding in ballast to any port of the United Kingdom. penance of not deciding precipitately on this question— (Hear) —and the great advantage we should gain by Mr. LABOUCHERE felt bound to resist it. postponing, if only for a twelvemonth, the settlement. After a few words from Mr. Hume and Mr. Macenze lam not surprised that Mr. B ancro f t was so silent. have a document here whi c h I w i ll not read to the con, recommending the Hon. Member to withdraw hi e motion, it was negatived without a division. House, as every Hon. Gentleman will soon obtain it. Its title is the "Report of the The Bill was then read a third time and passed. Committee of Ways and Means on thesubject d time The Indictable Offences (Ireland) Bill and the Sum.. of American Manufactures," pre sented to Congress on thelast day many Convictions (Ireland) Bill were read a third and passed. . of February Ibis year, when General Taylor, standing on the steps of the Go vernment-house at Washington, must have had that docu ment in his pocket, and no doubt its contents inspired that peculiar protective character of his inaugural address with which all Hon. Gentlemen are familiar. But one part of this report is very germane to this discussion, as it expresses in a solemn manner the opinion of the Com mittee, which for four years has given its tone to the opinion of America, on the navigation-laws, and re commends that no change or modification should be adopted under any circumstances.—(Hear, hear.) RATE IN AID BILL. On the report on the Rate in Aid Bill being brought up, Captain JONES objected to the mode in which the Government were going to increase the taxation of Ire land at that moment. His belief was that the rate could not be collected, and that by farming it they endangered the whole system of poor-laws in Ireland. It would create dissatisfaction in the whole of the north of Ireland, which they would not easily overcome. Mr. BROTHERTON said he hoped that they were