The Sun. — London, England, 1820-02-19 00:00:00

* 4 ' 5 Pi° Y ; i .) (41 0 1) , . 1 , .1 , , p. ic iv( C Cel 11 5 I d tr arise. heads were more in the country than in. town at present—more occupied with cockades, music, and the other accompaniments of elections, than he cOuld expect that they would be with any thing that he might say. lie could not expect that the subject would be discussed at present ; he could only do his duty by protesting against the conduct • .4,1M-inisters. The departure from the ordinary 5 1";1ctice, he insisted, was wholly unnecessary. Be foie the last recess the 1 - louse had voted a force of DOI •fewer than 11,000 additional men, in conse ittPAce of the then disturbed state of the country. Ile, felt no alarm at the sta!e of the c , ototry now, and he believed that there were nt-ver sounder sleepers Oran the subjects of his present Molest V Why then ‘Virsbe called upon to let these 11,000 men re bain a charge to the country till the 25:1t of June ; and if he did so, what cha'ice would lie fhttve of successfully opposing their being conti ri,ired then. Every one knew, that after the King's iiirth,day, as it was caVed, the 4th of Jotte, no Nnendanee emild be procured Without difficolty. • hut then Ministers miglo reply, the subject might he brought on sooner. This was as it ili'ght hap but they must heal in mind how great the Pressure of public business would be in the wow!) tel May, lie thought the Noble Lord was bound to state now what were his objections to br,inging forward the Civil List in the usual way, as it u 'ottltl not at all interfere with the rising of Par 11.4atent at the time he hail mentioned, since the three Acts ►which might be necessary, could he %set! in one single day ; and, tor . Ins part, he • tli►l not see whence opposition. to them was to Lord CASTLEREAGH reminded the Right Horn ► Cite!!!letnau that the present case was perfectly distinct fro , .i any that had preceded it. It was ' n ecessary for the Crown to open to a Parliament the business to be submitted to it in a speech from the Throne. But it were advisable that the existing Parliament should not be renitired to go through the business of the year (and the Crown's corning to such a deci•ion io the preseet case he had stithed) then be aperehended that it *as not natural to adopt that course which the flon. Gentleman bad thought ought to be Preferred. Now, with respect to the Civil List, if 44 Y, doubt could be entertained on the suhject of Vie constitutional controul of Pat liament not brin g recoguiaed by Ministers, that do , ibt *mild be removed by the intention which they hail announced of coining to that House l c' make such a grant o s account, as should Prevent the accumulation of any at r ear, before the assembling of the new Parlia !neut. On that occasion the question could he discussed. When it was known that tl.ose Re 'venues called Hereditary, which were strictly he seditary, were such in amount that the Crown never could in Any case maintain its splendour but by throwing itself open to the linerality of P,r linilient, all suspicion must be set at rest. It l utist be clear, that the course adopted by Mini eters could not leave the smallest doubt that it Was their intention to act On the principle which had been acted on in every similar instance. The ltight non. Gentleman had stated, that !he Civil List had been recently arranged, so as to guard 'against the occurrences of future difficulties. The arrangement alluded to he had approved at the time of its being made ; but because he approved of it, then did it follow that it was equally appli cable to another reign If Ministers bad taken a different course, the arg ument of the Right Hon. Gentl eman m i g h t have been revelled with touch "wire effect. He would state Ministers were , 'anxious to meet all their embarrassments. Ile Would assure the Right Honourable Gentleman, that if he thought there was any disposHoll On the part of the Government to take the di•cussion orthe Civil List in a new Parliament rather than in this, tie did oot do them justice. They had been well satisfied with the present Parliament on every occasion, and he had no doubt, that if - the question were broiight before them, they would he well disposed to provide for the Civil List with ill due regard for eco,orny, but with that wise l iberality e.trich would prevent the Crown from incurring debts, which it had always been felt . ought to be avoided. He therefore thought that he had a -right to claim for Ministers that they should have time allowed thetn, under all the pe culiar circumstances of the case, to weigh well the proposition which they would have to bring forward on this subject,befors they submitted it to Parliament. Mr. TIERNEY contended, that the Civil List p.oght to have been brought forward without del uy. lo Providing for it lie was always anxious to guard against incurring debts. He would give the Crown n° More than was necessary, but still enough to n ave it from the necessity of inclining debts. The 11 0'")tiot of the personal expences of the King had b een re gu l ate d on a R e p or t from a Committee of that, House three or four years ago. "-he C HANCELLOR o f th e E XC HEQUER Could not „ Ltlit a b le under . at the view which the Right Honour fir,, Gentleman had taken of the subject. In the a Place, he had supposed that there was no in ut "rity for considering any of the funds belong g to the Crown as hereditary revenues. Mr. "1 - teaNEY begged to say, that lie hal ad riitted that considerable hereditary revenues be hthr,ed to the Crown : not the whole of what had - -so been called. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained the arrangements made by the Consolidation Act 131 1786, and - other Acts. The hereditary 'eve n, "es of the Crown lie showed would be wholly mstifficient to answer the put poses of the Civil List. At present the Crown possessed no more ire hereditar y revenues than 5 or 600,0001. He intended to move for a grant on the earliest day On Monday next), in order ..to make good such payments-as might be necessary before the sub ject could be again submitted to the considera tion of Parliament. The grant which be pro- Posed .to move would guard against the accu mulation of any arrear before the 25th of "_April, when it was proposed that the new Parliament should • assemble, and between that P e " and the :ill! of July there would be upporiunitit s for 'amply discussing t he subject. By Alne corn h ' e jell it ks as proposed should be taken, : 11 01 only would the authority of Parliament over. the Civil List be rectignized, but all the ittconvc eicects that had been apprehended would he oh lie showed that the rummer in which the Civil List was now granted was different from that in which it was formerly granted ; that the conditions were multiplied; and that the reason ing which might once nave been applied to it was no longer applicable. He had much satisfaction in stating, that instead of any additional burthen being thrown ou tie people, a considerable sav ing might be made by, a new arrangement. — (Hear, bear, hear !)—Ministers had no wish to employ a greater force than they were autlio. rized to employ by Parliament ; -but it would be remembered that, in the last Session, a provision was made for a considerable force, which was af terwards disbanded. Those retained, even with the augmentation which had taken place, still fell short of the number which had been voted, so that .1 renewal ut the Mutiny Bill would authorize Ministers to maintain eken a larger number of Ho ops on f o ot than were at present in arms. All that was necessary now to be biought under the considera , ion of Parliament would be au Act to continue the Mutiny Bid, one to renew the Ex piring Law 4, and one to make a grant On account of the Civil List. These would all be very short and very simple. He had further the satisfaction to observe, that there was no immediate want of money, as the stun• remaining from the grants of last year, it was expected would be fully suffi cient. Mr. Hume said, the [louse was aware that there was an Act, the 54th of Gro. 111. c. IGO, which granted the Prioress ~ f Wales, now Queen, an annuity of 35,0001 By the demise of the King this was done away. tie wished to a<k if the Act he had tnetcioi.cd was intended to be continued with the other laws about to expire ? Lord CASTLE E said, that pains had been takeo to guard a!yiust any inconvenknce being felt in tho qoarer which had been alluded to. Mr. BaouGnam had been so anticiparpl in the view which he took o f t h e conduct of Ministers, by the observations nt his Might Lion. Friend - (Mt. Tierney), that lie had very little' to trouble the [louse with. At the same time, he felt it ne cassat y to say something on the very extraordi nary course which hat been parsued. With re ,p e et to :he subject broached just now by his Hon. Friend (Mr. he did not mean to say one word about it. He believed he might as sume that this teas the first time that such a com munication had been made to than House as that which was I:0W before them, :Ind he was certain, that it was the first time that :a communication so precise and ..pecific had ever been made from the Throne to announce a dissolution of Patna went. To dissolve a Parliament had been consi dried one of the most sacred and peculiar prero gatives of the Crown, and as often as it had been tottch-d upon, those who spoke on it had been answered by some Minister, that they were not to attempt to bring this two debate, as Par liament IVtIS not competent to broach,or to enter tain, a question on its own existence. This was stated without affecting that right (cdtich lie should be perhaps one of the last men in that House to deny) of calling in ques , ion the conduct of Ministers, by giving the Crown !hat advice on which it had thus exercised its discretion. The House wai now placed in a new situation, as it was called upon to give an opinion on the question, whether or not the dissolution about to take place has been well advised. called upon, it was not surprising that the House should proceed to the discussion. It was now for them to decide, aye or no, whether they ought to he dis solved or not. For himself, personally, he cared not how soon the dissolution took place, and should rejoice in its occorriog within a very short peri , ll. But he thought it his doty to make one or two remarks. In the first place, lie bad to pre some that Ministers had considered the suns of. inconvenience which would be occasioned if an election took place all over the Country in the very middle of the Assizes. He presumed that this bad been considered. But it appeared to him that no o pportunity c wild be afforded to the Judges to delay their sittings as they had done on a for mer occasion, for the Easter Term would come so quick upon them, that they would have no time to come and go if this were attempted; and that could not be done now which was done in a for mer instance during the long vacation. He had to congratulate the Home on one admission, late and tardily as it had beets made, that there was henceforth no cause for alarm on account of the state of the country. It would be remembered that the last time they met, such was stated to be its situation—such the vice that had crept in among the lower classes, that they were not merely discontented, but disaffected to the Government, and conspiring to overthrow the Constitution of their country. Plots against the Government were then said to exist, which made it necessary to call on Padiament to pass some of the strongest measures that could be adopted to put down the disaffection which existed all over the realm. To these the Gentlemen on his side of the House objected, but they were told that the facts were such as to make the coercive measures then recommended necessary, and they passed. The dissolution would at once put an end to one of the measures then deemed so necessary, and we should again be plunged into that state which but a few. weeks ago was contemplated as one of such immi -1 neat dangeri No man who bad heard the argu ments urged on the opposite side could doubt the real motive, (he did not say any thing against the : dissolution,) for postponing the consideration of the Civil List. He believed (and every one would- laugh at him were lie to affect I not to believe it) that their object might be ex pressed its one short sentence—that it was their wish that it slt•old be left untouched, seeing that it woald be a much more handy thing for those concerned in arranging the Civil List to • bring it forward and have it disposed of by'a new Parliament,' rather than by one on its death-bed, which could not exist more than six months, and . which might be dissolved as soon as it had given its assent to the proposed arrangement. These were his feelings on the course pursued by Ali : nisters ; he had no objection to the intended this ! solution. . Mr. CANNING said, the attention of the House had been called 10 a new cpiestion by the Learned Geutletuan. He would lead the House to suppose that something hit ked behind which Ministers were -afraid to avow. lie did not kLow how to answer thi,, but by , :enying that any thing was kept out of sight that his Majesty's Ministers were not prepared to debate, if fit opportunity offered for doing so. The Learn ed Gentleman could oppose Ministers on the de bate on the grant Proposed for the Civil . List ; but the question which would be brought before the House would be framed with a just regal , : to economy, and at the same time with that (the absence of which the House would resent) care to maintain the dignity of the Crown which was necessary. Whether Ministers consulted these two objects was the only subject which could with propriety be discussed. The Hon. aid. Learned Gentleman had taken two objections to a debate on the dissolution of Parliament; and if he had understood him right, there never had been :etch a debate brciught forward, or attempted to be brought forward, but those most active, in it were in a manlierground down by the opposition of the /louse. The Learned Gentleman might remember that Addresses to the Crown hed been moved and carried in that House, praying the Sovereign not to interfere with their proceedings by dissolving the PatliamAtt, and that answers to such ad dresses had been returned from the troe•n, as suring them that nothing of the kied was intend ed. When he recollected that such proceedings had taken place, what there was nee.' in 'he course now to he pursued he could not sce, trod how the present proeeedieg trenched on the constitutioeel tights of Parliament he had yet to learn. Both the Right Honooreble aced the Hon. and Learned Geutleman had argued as if to prolong the exist ence of Varliament after the demise of the Crown had been the old, recognized, and common law of the country. it - was herdiy accessary for hint to say, that tic law and the prectice had been the other way. By tile old Con stitution of the Country, the Parliemeot hail terminated with the life of the It had been necessary to pass a special Act, to - give Parliament an additional existence in par ticular cases, and prolong its sitting, for various reasons, beyond that period at which it wool(' naturally expire. The Act providing that Parka meta should continue to sit for sitemonths after the demise of the Croivn had been passed in the time of King William, with a view to a disputed succession. In such a case, it was felt that it would be exceediegly inconvenient that no Parliament should be in existence at the time of the demise of the Crown. The Act passed in tile reign of King William was made retitle nent in the time of Queen Anne, hut with a view to the same circumstance—front an apprehen- - sion of foreign interference, it was thought equally necessary. It was true that since the accession of George the First two cases of diffe rent character had occurred. It was true that in those cases the Civil List had been determined on by the first two Parliaments in those reieus. But Gentlemen were aware that neither of the cases were analogous to the present. It did not thence necessarily follow, that a 'different course elrould be pursued in titis instance Irons that which was then preferred. But this he would contend, that, though no deviation from that course was impos ed, still the cireinns! mice gave Ministers a lati tude of discretion. lu King Williatu'e time, the Act was passed with a view to a spe=cific case. The same was done in'thefollOwing reign. lie admitted the accessions of George' 11. and George 111. occurred under circomstaocre differing esseitii,l'y from those to which those acts referred ; bw the preseot accession lie would contend was not ana logous to either of the two which preceded He was afraid that he bad not made hirneelt uo derstood. What be Meant Was :—ln the t iro cases of King William and Queen Anne, a dis puted succession was apprehended, and on .het ground the law in question had passed. 'l' he cases of George 11. and-George DI. were differs et, and so a course was followed which the Right Hon. Gentleman and the Learned Gentlemeo were of opinion ought to be followed now. Bit in his judgmint the present accession was not analogous to either, and therefore Pa rliament Was not obliged to act on those precedents. In no case before had the House been sitting at the time of the demise of the Crown ; in no case before had the Royal Authority been transferred previous to the extinction of life in the illustrious wearer of the Crown. The House had then to look to circum stances. During this they would find . Parliament engaged in the discussion of matters the satisfac tory termination of which was hopeless within the limited period allowed for their sittings by law. 'We find the public with an expectation (no matter how excited or by whom) that a dissolution of Par liament must speedily take place. In this situation of things it was for Ministers to consider what was best to be done, and be thought the Hon. a nd Learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. Brougham) who was the first to take the field—who was the first to sound the alarm to his constituents, or to those be wished to be his constituents, wassOf all others the pet son from whom he should least have ex pected that Ministers would tte accuses! of pre cipitation, because they had hastened to gratify his sanguine and ardent expectations.—(A laugh.) —They were anxious to be in the field as well as hint, and to see the combat ; and they could not but think it ungrateful in the Honourable and Learned Gentleman 'that he should thus assail them for having determined on giving him' an opportunity of realising all the advantages which he had promised himself. %Yid) so many opi nioes afloat in the country as were called forth in the present instance, lie would ask if that well and- steady attendance could be expected, which were indispensable where discisseious of such importance were to be brought "on ? Was it to be expected that Gentlemen wont(' give their attention to basiness—would devote their days and nights to the public service, as regularly as could be wished, while their minds were so pow erfully attracted to other objects ? Under,sech circumstances, to dissolve the Parliament Seemed tet hint to be the most proper course, and, in the public notification of it which had been made, he thought there was a degree 14 fairness in the con duct of Ministers, which had been tnet with-on no similar occasion. - Mr. ,BaouG,Ham. in explanation, complained that the obsel vations applied to !lint rested on a complete perversion of fact,. To 'nutke out what be was inclined to, say, the Might Ho nourahle Gentleman on this, as on mitoY other occasions,, had been oblii,ed to fabri cate part of a speech, and had thought proper to make him "Complain of the •precipitation with which Ministers proceeded to the dissolution. - He would appeal to the House, if so far from Co plaiting of it, he had not rejoiced in it for him self. The House had heard this, the Right Gentleman had heard it, tend yet he thought proper to represent him as lyaV . ing complained, when in reality he had rejoiced. So much for this joke.— As to a discussion never Navin4 taken place on the subject of a dissolution, this was what lie had not said. Bur be had asserted that a Minister of the Crown, when this sobject was touched upon, had always been ready to say to the House, `• this is no business of yours." He wished to show that it was un►constitutional to call on Parliament be forel►and to approve of its own dissolution. • Mr. MACDQN.LD complained, that a series of precedents had been proposed io he departed from on the present occasion, without any special rea son. tie contended that the course which had been pursued by former Kings of England was pioved by the manner in which it had bee:► 'met 'by the people tbrough their Representatives, to be that which migl►t safely have been resorted to on the present occ , Hon. Front the - conduct of rlit►inter, in this instance, it seemed probable that tl , ey were conscious their views woutd not stand the test of a General EleetiOn, q'he question was then put and agrced to. GRAMPOUND, PENRYN,(:.\MELFORD,.AND BARN- ti'i`~l~l' i.l' Lord J. Rust I.L sa,(l, he should not trotthlc the :on; on the present occasion. He proceed ed Inietly to set forth the expediency of vreventing the issuing of >ivy Wtirs for the Borooglis Granyound, riot Yn, Cdtneitord," 611,1 liarnstaplc. lie spoke in 1W t that his argnihents were in:Audible in the exptessrd a eontictinn that the ion 5e decided respect ing these Boroughs woula Le (001'e satistactorfly discussed in a new Parlieloient than in one about to expire ; and accordingly moved, that no new writs should be issued. Lord CAsTLEREAGn said, his view of the sub ject did not differ very materially from that of the Noble Lord. Itie wished to keep the question as neatly as possible as it now stood, till a new l'arlia rnent should be assembled. fie merely suggeste►l that some (K:i-hltieS would be found to atise from the measure •tn question to which he wished the Noble Li,rd and the House to turn their attention, . h tt at the same time he did not oppose the bring ing in of the proposed Bill. Mr. IVYNN approved of the Bill. Nobody could doubt the power of a new Parliament to deal with those Boioug,lis as it should think fl' ; but lie coioeuded; that many difficulties would be thrown in the way of disposing of the question in a satisfactory matthei , ilafter the present dissolw ion -Members should be returned for those Boroughs, against whom Ito corrupt plactices could be prov ed. lie saw Ito objectiou to bring in the Bill. Could that House sAy, that it %rook legislate On the principle that Boroughs were so coitupt, that they were no longer fit to return Members, aid at the same rime allow M.onbeis from those Boroughs to take their seats iri th.t House, upon the occur'. retire of a new Eleciion I. If corruption were proved to have existed to that extent, that th.!re were groom! s for the introduction of these Bills, the House was bOlintl to take care that the furtlit‘r_inquity in•o the question went without pr,j,dice to Che ensuing Pailiament. boiler these circumstances he most' heartily concurted in the'Bili' of the N'oble Lord. He had only one thing to hope with respect to it, which was; that it nhould go Co suspend lie Bo rough of Barnstaple front the exercise of its elec.. time franchise iu company with•the other three Boroughs which were the object of the Noble Lord's Bill.. He thought sufficient satisfactory evidence .1),:d been adduced, of the corruption of that Borough to wartant such a step. He thought the, plesent a ttrtking oc4asiou for showing that - the House possessed ih4t important means of de against Ole inroads of corruption, and he hoped they Would not send the Bill away without taking measures that the question should be ;runs ferret! Ou the same state to the ensuing Pariia went. Lord JOHN 'RUSSELL in explanation observed, that he should have no objection to concur in the suggestion ot the Hon. !Member with respect to the Borciugh of Barnstaple, which he should ask permission to include in his Bill. With re spect to the objection urged to the Bill by the Noble Lord (Castlereagh), on .account of the demurrage likely to he made in the House of Lords, he c.•t•tainly could not anticipate such a course. it did not appear to him . very probable that the House ot Loids would ask f•-!r all the evidence that had been brought lomat d on the subject of Grampound, Pent and Ca rnellord, merely because the House bad alre.►dy gone through that evidence, or solely for the pt►r pose of seeing if it were justified thereupon, its passing a Bill like the present. He certainly thought the Bill of that importance, that he should move that it be read a first time this'even ing, and that the Borough ot Barnstaple be in cluded in its operation. CASTLIMEAOI4 observed, that Iris Aserva- tions bud tutiely been intended to point out the difficulties likely to be opposed to the course the Noble Lord Was about to pursue.—(lirar !) The Bill was then read a first time, and or dered Co be read a second time on Monday next, and to be-printed. ANSWER FROM THE ADDRESS TO THE THRONE. Lord JocELVN brought down Answers to the two Addresses voted on the night preceding. The first stated, that his Majesty felt the truest satisfac tion in reeeivinz the afectionate, loyal, and duti ful Address of Condiletice and Congratulation from the H ouse of Commons, and that his Ma jesty assured the House that he should ever feel anxious • to- preserve and promote their liberties. The second 'was as tollows " GEORGE It. " 1 have received' with. satisfaction the loyal and dutiful Address of CotidolenCi;::which the liotrse of ~Connuons has' presented to me, on the 14O.Melancholy death of my beloved Brother, the Duke of Kent, ma gratifying proof of their con stant attachment to my person, family, and Government. ~ G. It." On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the Ex-