The Sun. — London, England, 1855-05-11 00:00:00

) 09 ;god ti° oo o r 9 ° a , fte' v iDO rn so f ' ; 6 let 13° 0 fis /e d kOF pER c0111" AIPEIIIAL PARLIAMENT. "USE _OV COMMONS-YESTERDAY. (Continued Ain, Our impression of yester da y . ) err tr ~,,. THE INDIAN ARMlriinuation said - Ile waui,,-_'•ItkINE PERRY, in,, hat gall a nt officer . to ali ne , he .I_i':_,,w‘ cite the opinion..ool late th Sir C. Napier, oligh t to observe already referred--- officer went ou t to India om . wi th th_ that that gallant Nay a eistrongest prejudice agamst the au E d a u st uf r o n r d t r u a n C ate.ly he te,ea, everything connected with it, vereTaittea.hioeself to print; but, after haeovdinggasienrevr for.ln hinllfc.ampargns with the Indian army, h e wa im mortal honours by the victories which hnehde gwahviele: ~,,,, at their head. this was the opinion it is a very Rae , Y °Pinion of the army generally thatlB'. 4 fl s eetl v ill Y• The Indian artillery I really think is h sre e artillery in the world. Its practice is i a s d t m h i e r a m b o l e s t . 4 Peri ot s . ea n a good deal of it. The Royal .k. fiela , io 4 a !cieutifie corps; but as a practical I in the field.. l corps ery thhi4 that errssiog mountains, jungles, rivers, and in every mianythbee I n *, 4t artillery can be called upon t0r 9 ,16' eaw anything better than the Indian Artillery.' dole!t qa1.1:1;e1 , 11 b s a e it terd oi l c ii s t p o h e s sameed,or, r s more b o j r e e c t ready: - ." to o thinkdt o ht eheteai t onr h fd e a uro l mtffiy o y i . • morel 4 0 14 Y is nearly perfect. . . There cannot_ ser a, or itnpossible to have a more brillian 11 s the Eurc,- hn:finer body of men than the Ar e tille: l 3 , of Bengal. ,!'ith!,roust say of the natives, s wi,,__a More devoted set of me a n s ea 41141 regard to the Bombay army, ommittee i tl,Privat'llgliby Cotton had often said to him substantially ' i t a c , -'''' what he thus expressed before a c ewan his n o g t al b l gallant t fo f n 9 n e d n' Cl' certai-blilat conceive that there is a not any.wllg re !, not ia India and I think I 11.?,1Y. sayy they iletvalan the Bombay a rmy ; they a more effective army, ‘Hk to an y place ; lle•e,,ster boa an objection to ember te nd h Y e a. May require a contingent to-morrow, , th yo e u y can kic,4ws, atever numb r f them you Please. European trnon-;4e,Y,k;ht well,ebuot if they are mixed with in the world." 44aioilh!'elak gallantsth are fully equal to any , on being ineei 18 ag (Sir G. Berkeley', tOrMghe th '4 ' 4 as to what he thought of the Madras army,iio n sa o id f ht it Very good indeed. What was th f e artily? Gott with regard to the medical staff o de ns, tcsis lordship to serve w ' lar war, and , l ,lae,i ) , whole almost of the Peninsu as my fortune t o ile Indian irti4j,,Crcilgh Beveral campaigns in India, one period 'ltte was44lPaigo I do not think that at any (litter), nor but ' i l n h t a h v e e a4 thir; - a W°4nded man without his d?oleAm.„ li tai s ° arlY co mfort it was possible to give h ' Gough bore this it ,in reference t commissariat, Lord • the At , liiperiazt o the iddurig iaratta tpstimony. H e sa . Then, P r ll r nay ekePa'gla and the SufleJ Ent) aign, the n army admit that at length . an titsio t he ~fort lops was never one dayy ea without its regular bthe organise 'lca of ~ rig direction had been made of a most !,:11„4.4Zilid tra w as quite ready to "Port Corm under the command .i übt, ustify the high ,114,tuati„ Zi-e-loarie who would, vro4lll attetti trusted . that t 4 41 t ' 4 sic ~ , Pt about to be made-he• h contingen , he bad heretof n o o re d o o tained. There I t s d i,i o oT ieer . essini one---th raise a Turkish vieelltainatio„it, with Indian soldiers. , hi ser ils 14,,°!. na su 4 a,c l been displayed in t themselves in every field Cop' by lot th:',Qad distinguished Certainly, if due h have been se9ur t ed s . Cie s ,„, r Y the ', twenty y if th'ellrl'ent h.. le itY of the to avail themselves Drii et Bervices"o taken, they had failed would have ti lt ,. e ll oot a ,°,f the men whom all India ea st r e s p m s tg which her Majes y' stated this without whel'teritiee ' 'no most efficient. ervice of organ ic, h ad b ee _ of caating any disparag li ern e npon the officers ih`" e t snd cetcarinduced to enter upon the s thatgresti4ter!apiiing that contin e g d n that he should state Nic e , d l ien e of v Ls at stake demand!, ' h the occa 14Leinsudmueta were of that eminence which t But truth and in Indian story. !Pets-,. a "1--noe b names, known names ~ aa the °, ore nam men whose , , illti 'Lot , case when he referred to he mentioned tile a aele 4`,,2ltat those officers ? When he mentioned th e Ham a ot,`. general Patrick Grant, and is4 a t h,les ~ one who -if parliamentary of Minister of wo el ) part h 0 did not prevent preceden t it-would be the tar i kr . tat the present time the the post of mill tfe.,, nlYt ter e Who Was ve rse d i n conduct f taking_ the jii,, 4 ,ilet of 81 and who was capable 0 1 41 ' -Let th• ' There unemployed.. *;e'llr e - v'lle affair s of our armies at the Present i ili ,, , i 4 ) C am . is gentleman was 'e din th all odgson, a whom Sir . i Brieadier -41,, er m ka e tugboat terms. Ther e was a so 0 n. w Gover e ltr 4 l , t hßd vir,/,111, w hom, as the house well knew CT C. Napier had ati,c‘ase, -,•,_ ocen able to persuade to take a subordinate at. !. that no use had 6 4 tat. 'Now non- employment of men of that kind 454,'141s 4' calamity. In complaining made of it. Ar t o poi of the Indian army, it was essential that he sotto r hinch 014 what use might have been communi. th,in, wit, attention to the subject, and Ilssa'htlit4 !;iilitary men upon the subj m ec a tl y he ent a Euro -151._ kite „uonbt that under proper arrane a emu _ ett740,,23.1 ° cl i, from 2 0,000 to 25,000 men from forming India to the had not 414telorl.t. ItectZ: ,i might be despatcheddnyof the highest to,'Ntchle' that itavvs° InfollTleathayt a large army so as to It.'4ii:l(l that it " II y e of the Euphrates, could s have 2,', 4 , led ~4ct°ll with treoovpas valley of the Euphrates, so as to With troop B in Georgia. No one a, body of k t4lOO ,41,4411441 history without knowing the:vice t rk, t r t lial gt , 'Y w onld be of the most essential suecfszed. The i t , ere . i, the that in which we were now e not unlike . trtt.,11,441 waer, °dome was in some of its phases difficulties of tial n such Viar y) ' i L l e sate; ,There were . the eameoin. H ( Gl4l ii itt i ttleki knowl;gilffietilties India o f whichi s, I,44,oB,lllteieneta;e; l tl i n ys state o f things i t , (~.io ,' 'A be most useful in the resent f auch a thing 'kit " 8 Pre-e, It was too late to think seasono h a d set in. e n men m ' B f carried m 1 1 , 14 ,4 1 , 1 4 : 5 ,1 6 ti io rocstnpaign, as the rainyymen might henieint v,ke ti N the next campaign, to a convenient the te kt t r r 41 the differentports of India proceed to ~i. elide might Nov war „rzveus whence they t heir 1 1 ill That such 'an was perfectly. a l rea dy found a P' 'meats having had a doubt t hit. l tay fr e fact of two regimen, Perry) jei'l Iveulrlv, liidia. He (Sir E. tertainei a different feasible was 1 4 4-roul ii.,.‘•,e said by those who iv, k la pia L'selr, that it easy and he could . qii tlit ee i , 11(1 state vague generalities, en for him to get up f the subject qsel?lsi h it i t , e il wit tii„, h 7 , the would also, he aii,,tea not i l-, -e aurnewhat general. It . safe to denude I-'1;t1 t0rU41,1.'4 that it would not be sa w v a e s ry ver n y ature d awal of a Itia4l-eaa 144'6'4%9Pa. It was well known . that objection `4'rilet.t.i''ol.centl,,,,'°4l Dalhousie to the with . r ion which tile, cov„tr,wiellqic4valry regiiLeats. Theofascertaining b o t pi r n might not Plan vvh• I'llliPosiu , -,. had no means. ieh he o glt t o h.. 1 ' 44 *(1 re • (I "" a correct view of those *l4 ..i",,, ' r a - ,or oho . -•-• ee scot out w inctia to replace I wghilllcellts WTI: ' 4 "e t as this, that the freshly ~,-', woul d b ,Service i a „ eat out to L'enilla e 'at bett 'fl prevailed Thella, out raw er thau the 4 Aem which now e-')t c ella' recruits boys, 0 C rimea. This, as it seemed to i most' Y f whom were mere _. s th e -a as ill Le ath 'f. on unaccustomed hardship • ti: discult snoopsr (113. e . J c.tiorn°llWhienhacc t 4 of th Y°f settl' rela- Yso eefac le g 1 4 a mixed corps d arm° th 'lit IN " l e ilea era tt4hoorei;llht, hao.4:elialtie4iteberasnatil alootieqat th Ives It hail been ou. might be urged, viz., tbd question. He 14,Lienlweiver, tat' sutculty 0 W t n the effect of that me- hopdoors, that a late order tilpit,ll th at i' woUld be in the a no of some hon r .. )7Q "a,°fPuttine 114 d a few ev n* recollectiong. co taken the oPP° , " 71s c , 4°l e ''g a clileatio e in-ssin President of the Board Poo this matter 4 to the l laventl e orandum in 1,1 1 -.1 0 , , m an he ~. From the answer of the right ~,,A il,, eloatiat.,_ 444:1 inferred that the mem ‘ l 7e e t , ti o l n its faes'°3 frotn her d jesy,nothing more 1 0 11 etj N r s re wit PlirPOrte to inea ni n, eant n and that ~ l a w.. 400 h i t eLeraB to give to Indian officers an honorary in India. 1, ` ,. , g as ; th e 4 , th ask which they bore nclum• its only liteliil la,ell 415 , th, i ' le 50d sole effect of that memoraex____t ti le s, ,4,4 refore, that no liberty to command' 'f7l i°lficerseellferred upon India„ffieers, and hence,,ey OhN ho t ql, 14'2° the'ellioyed with Queen's troops, /14 Ortt I ght t 44,1 n time of Abercromby, which se ahoy ti c a '• give oi dere. Even if the reading stillit fell 'lli " I t of 1' taetuoranduna were incorrect, anie,i'eLlei4lawliat the exigencies of the times and of moment that they '1 % 4 ' 4 of 4ded• The $ 't* h at this nNtrt, 1,4(341)0,4 460,050 ri is srmyup with . wards of 10, 000 Wh a t kl!liefeehte requireditrat'teis large army should r b s e titAie4;"' 48 any army in the world. Our Officeon, 48 t super a °r ecempan 's Were, as a body and in thr tohitlgstliior to thoseYof'any other nation. -Bat,._,. h7vitef icirei""n",,° ?racers were not to be compared with d other hi a Nit t , 4 ' an' 114-41.40.118. lie required in thisbranch of the i„Rh N , that v_ininistrative reformer require 'ltketlposts. 4, men shwa(' be found t fill the ete t h at r o i l ., At testhepresent moment there were several Isi'atiehrestioils of ns waiting ing Nl in e re, l'arYquestio "t" for settlement. There . 'Ain.' of military . IN y ed the of trainiePr,onnedtiooni of recruAlro,f these „ d ttllksZilwicelai :rcactiiest geoarinsideratiLayfrom milits:rjt 1113 e :te l.° , tY 4th 4,z-- • AnY measures which m."....tis_ 14:",411 th e wh lee to these matters could only_ bein 7aet, tOt"Fa the t e th e 5 e arnlY were dealt with ; d ei !' roatter°Piniou of the best military authorities l amation !IcNl l l a the‘4, 11l 110 satisfactory reformation . could be ) ra 4 1,,'; ,, of tl tters, unless a complete amalgamation It was 11 ) N. t • tt ' 111 4 li're, Queen,, and Company's services., _,..,„ was lP,tibicl4tlt'-it witl"h Point of v.els , that thisenauji of India. t rtitieit,itothoesitaatsiouoilueaireqtlirel_faorituhebenefit h t India the military ttlt'lßsll4l.:ei did not-rtmo l u n fe a French exPraerssyieat-a-t 1,;:l, sY .‘ ,ll l i to l , in order to this it was ne%e r ss tbe con beltftilt,s % ,, 41 . pr e3 ' e a should be a royal army, under n t of India' pi a N ay , rat, of the impreuie govern° w hi c h he 4 ai ) 1 : ciet. nother ittiportant question upon,_ one, for t hik B t a 4 h 4 lv t *; ,i,,4° tltileh, although it was a delicate ti of such ll'lrj nh'arlia-11°' good arise from the h la .. klf e • went Re affirmed that mention q-sea 1 4 th e lit force in IN atie 4) nsti t , ° lode in whith our m officers were at bpitilhie all far fa, ifltarl. A. large number of. e . e r n e ar w y as some tlrlet 4 t q!; Ip, „ 1 :°41 the control of . public army itself-a the ota iflaff•eeciad had mutinies in the It was the 1 • 1, tt, l Be st „I°ll hano for years. opinion. Nor facts like tilk Easeto io","°81:44.11 to shrink from grave.f ii,t neeti,tt %ern fair).- 14 4, 4. 8 t t i 1 1e fbd itt Y which they might be met. He_ b n h of this .r in the face, and, i J:i e e . s .e si v b e l d e tf c h :re 41.1117 Were a royal army mune, a loyalty th s ll, l ee er e 4a, (rhsappear in the allegiance de,Pntst'lbers ` ll al to the- position of I.° to exalt 4 4 '4 h,, k t'al w , a, oUld see that he had no desires asM te'ebeyedr,TY at the expense of the Que ld be en qe j 44 44 hi,Tat, as a whole, the latter won a al troops. only last, Act no t I,,rebee oue.r than the former. He needed tic lis 'ln t , 1554 t, .clive, Virellesley, Lord Lake, and There th ' 4 l i 4441 e, •p aPier, to prove this position. 114 IV l lst oae .the Indian array to vie with those . which , i s , al eel, ntiotied '4'll ee*44 it. hld b ' Indeed to make the Indian wh o ? . th e ah sole rbother. Bou e bound as closely as P the vw,trtry ~,i el_ ,eoDiatry. Ile. would and, following iilltll,ll te l t e ohi c il a Y s to try, us r . might be, d Algeriahad 'set us -with I,,ta 41.,a''te:ir ariny, make itingradually as national in t:eivol,l ~Ole ~ea Possible. So far he had traced the ben_es ii;'°W ere Posed change as regarded the State ; he t,lele,l t tee lisitler it in relation to the soldier himself. te tei,licill eve'aeM4tter in this light, he thought that t 1,,;4i papa th. Would be advantageous both tohe forces lkiltt4„„ o,..ootapally's men. The Queens ap. skilitsr,:-.liR <era to theta not only those . staff tkgßtler.yll stoc'i Were so numerous in' India, ‘. b r u o t_a t l h s: thZti,,,gtibft 09 of ti,,political posts, which were no.N_V,a/r;nmen. i,alit ) Z4 of (t 1.1714,11 service, often filled by AA ,),),°: the t:3(l`,-;a°rolaany would also be d m fited. The field of militar y y 4' 'al, t 4 h ,e3' 1 ~w i e ; l as tuliteagpo ofpaentinr hrgrer military reward tlqieh.'mtZ-I;:`,4t Presenrt°astteain(.) In addition to this they tllpliclelll44ll4.elr; 4444°111cr;; sera7lingy at e i Q ngu ee e n nee a w n it h h milir tj,:t tae°es thatc?„lll,l tont helph thinking ba that it was perfectly_ s s l aar, t halou e ~_Lie great advantage which would arise from 4 'l are t,e'oeuld be lost to the State. The h°r " g le pra t G a 0 (1 a letter from Brigadier-General Mayne, e tl, tenteitcr tn - ,°il a.,_native gentleman who had acted as te„ll3, !Illation r ~w.. Goipm and Sir Charle n e Napier, question I,,,tetit ‘Ti.teeete,°l his v . iews. . There w_ase. ‘tk.%er ntbaeoir'' %nth this subject t? l lt was this, 0. 1 41,,,, .„ the 0.:,.1th briefly adverting. Thel4 't4°llld he algarnation of the royal nd Indian wia - ft he would ‘v lattc:. wagistinee°tlll f the empire, plet!,, or whether he Indian_ army hob i a que th e v,_ Portion of the forces Grenville. f course men ; thishu t %.0,1;1114l4,j1 for tgWCf 4iord I. i.iat there wr y stit(icera.t!on .of military ....csi-it vroldd tend to Iretth°lllndian army a mere 1/44-A4istlykn49 e. vimiao6o--4-913 •14(.401! to the, plan of Lord fate of things would, he thoughts degrade the dignity and lo ver_theefficiency of the Indian troops. Of course, if the dun which he then advocated were approved by that house it would require to be gradually introduced and the changes should be made with consideration and care. He did not .vish to disguise from the house that the principle of the plan which he had ventared to bring forward was no new 'hiricr. It had been brought forward by Lord Grenville in 1813, in one of the most effective statements which had ever ")cen made within the walls of parliament. Many of the .:harwes foretold in that speech have since come to pass as ictual facts. Amongst other matters, Lord Grenville went fully into the question of the amalgamation of the Indian army with that of the Queen's, and gave it as his opinion that such an amalgamation ought to take place. But there was another authority yet stronger on the point. Lord Grenville was not a military man, and he had never been in India. But he (Sir E P6rry) would next cite the opiu i in of a man who had been in India, and who was acquaint ed with military affairs. Lord Cornwallis, on his return to England round the Cape, in 1791, applied himself for months to the consideration of the constitution of the Indian army, and to the best mode of making it available for the purposes of the state. It came to the knowledge of the Board of Control that Lord Cornwallis bad consi lered the matter ; and, upon his arrival in England, Sir G. Dundas wrote to him to know what were, the details 'of his plan. Upon that Lord Cornwallis proposed a most elaborate scheme, at the same time expressing his opinion that no scheme could be permanently useful unless, as a preliminary measure, the whole of our force in India was transferred to the royal service, to be conducted for the future on the principles which regu lated the royal army. At the same time, Lord Corn- wallis said, it was to be clearly understood that all his Majesty's troops serving in India were to be perfectly sub ordinate to the comp Any's government, and to receive their orders through the court of directors. To carry on this thread of authorities, to show how Parliament up to the present time had dealt with the question, he would read the opinions which had been given since 1794. In 1813, Lord Grenville made his great speech on the subject, and the company presented an able minute protesting against the. change then proposed, on the ground that if their army were incorporated with the Queen's they would loss all prestige and patronage, and become cyphers. ' That defeated the bill, but in 1833 the question was again raised before a committee, and the then Secretary to the Board of Control circulated a number of queries to Indian offi cers as to the expediency of the change. A vast body of evideine was collected, which would be found in the re port. He admitted that there were but few great names to be found amongst the witnesses, ,except Sir J. Mal colm, and his views were identical with those which he (Sir E. Perry) advocated. Mr. Elphinstone disapproved of the project, but his authority was not so great as that of Sir J. Malcolm. He now came down to the last Parliamentary committee that sat on Indian af fairs, and, strange enough, in that committee this great question was not so much as mooted, and for that reason, he had no recent evidence of which he could avail himself. He admitted that there were some difficulties surrounding the question and those difficulties divided themselves into two classes—difficulties of principle and difficulties of de tail. The difficulties of detail he would pass over, as being better adapted for discussion in committee upstairs, but there were two or three difficulties of principle which must be settled by the legislature. The fact was the objection raised by Lord Grenville was, that if the Queen's army were to be the only army serving in India, it would bo necessary to make the Government, of India a royal Government. He did not shrink from that proposition, nor from expressing his opinion that such a change would be highly beneficial to India. The legislature had not, however, thought right to adopt that course, but for twenty years had been gradually taking away from the company every vestige of power, and leaving them at last without any function whatever. But the question had already been tested, for we had at this moment in India 30,000 Queen's troops acting under the control of the civil servants of the com pany. Therefore if the Government still preserved this phantom of a company, the lhtter would retain the control of the army of the Crown. Lord Cornwallis had con sidered the difficulty, and had provided for it by suggest• ing that all despatches should pass through the Board of Control, and that the Horse Guards should have nothing whatever to do with the administration of the army in India. But there was a still more serious difficulty, The Indian service was apprehensive that if the armies were fused, Parliamentary and aristocratic influence would regulate the promotion, and that those officers who had not high friends in England, would be passed over for those who had. He could assure the house that if he believed it likely that such would be the case, he would not support the proposition for a moment. Ho did not ,fear the erection of any new abuse in the distribution of patronage. It was not easy to eradicate old ones, but we were at that task at present, and, under such circumstances, to establish any new abuses, would be a task of such enormous difficulty that no minister of the Crown would attempt it. But they had in India the principle established which Parliament y h st a e d m odisf covered to be the true one—namely, a mixed seniority and selection. He admitted that in India the system of seniority had been carried too far, but recently selection had been added with the best possible effects. Such being the case, he believed that the fears which were entertained in some quarters against his project were per fectly chimerical. He had a body of evidence to show the mixed system as it was carried on in the French navy, furnished' to him by Admiral de Chabannes, and in this country it had been most available in providing captains for the Baltic fleet, A third_ difficulty was one which had been put to him by some military men—namely, how would it be possible to amalgamate the com pany's. army with the Queen's while purchase was the system of promotion in the one, and seniority in the other. The obvious answer to this was, that the two sys tems existed in the Queen's service, seniority and purchase, but there was another answer, and that was, that if the war continued, purchase would completely disappear. Any one who studied the Gazette for the last few weeks would see that, as a military fact, the system of purchase had alre idy disappeared. One word as to the comparative effects of the two systems. He had read carefully all the authorities in favour of pi:motion by purchase, and he found them all to have one basis, namely, that such a sys tem permitted the advancement of young men to positions of command ; but the Royal Commission deelared that for this purpose the system of purchase had failed, seeing that the average age of major-generals in the Queen's ser vice was 65 yea's. In India, where the much-dreaded seniority system prevailed, the average was only 62. These,_ however, were questious of detail. He thought ho had shown the house that these were facts which it was very desirable should be investigated by an impartial tribunal. Papers had been showered upon them from both services, much information would be elicited, and besides, the inquiry he proposed would be perfectly parliamentary. He felt that he had left many topics, but they would afford a wide field for the speakers who were to follow him, but if they should be advocates for the East India Company, he begged them to remember that during the last 70 years, whenever a project inimical to the inte rests of the company was brought forward, the most plausi ble and ingenious arguments were used to deter the house, and that whenever Parliament, in its wisdom, slighted these predictions, subsequent experience was sure to prove them to have been perfectly valueless. He ventured to predict that, if the house granted him this committee, such evidence would be offered as would enable Parliament to add another to their important measures for the amelio ration of India. (Cheers.) . The hon. member concluded by moving the resolution. Sir D. L. EVANS seconded the motion. Sir J. FITZGERARD did not see how any amalgama tion could be accomplished between the Indian army and the European army. The expense of removing an army from , India to the Crimea would be enormous. To induce the Sepoy to leave India, he must have double pay and dou ble batta. But he was perfectly certain that the Sepoys never would be able to endure the march and the service that would be required of them. Under all the circumstances, he saw no possible benefit likely to arise from the appoint ment of a committee, and he should therefore oppose the motion. Colonel DUNNE said the motion divided itself into two distinct parts ; first, as to how many troops could be spared from India to go to the Crimea. That was a ques tion for the executive Government to decide. It was a question of policy to be considered by the Government, and not one to be submitted to a commit:ee of the House of Commons. No doubt, if the East India Company said they could spare 20,000 troops from India for the pur pose of prosecuting the war in the Crimea, it would be the duty of her Majesty's Government to avail themselves of their services. The second proposition of the hon: gentleman was to amalgamate the Indian army with the Royal army, but that was a proposition which had always been strenu ously opposed by the East India Company, and until the whole government:of India was transferred to her Majesty's Government it would be unadvisable tohave an army paid by one Government and acting under the authority of another. The recent appointments of Indian officers to commands in the East had been greatly detrimental to the officers of the Royal army, and but little compliment was paid to her Majesty's officers when they were told officers from India were to receive commands over their heads in the Crimea. References had been made by the hon. gen tleman to the appointments which had been made to the Turkish Contingent. He (Colonel Dunne) was, however, of opinion that a Turkish Contingent would never exist, because it would be impossible to induce Turkish soldiers to serve under Christian officers. The officers of the Royal army had, nevertheless, been passed over in the commands which had been distributed with respect to foreign troops. One gallant friend of his, Colonel Chesney, a highly dis tinguished officer and a man well acquainted with the East, had actually been appointed to one of these foreign legions, and after having received his appointment was removed to make way for an Indian officer. To make a rule that the whole of the commands in her Majesty's service should be thrown open to Indian officers would hardly be dealing fairly with .officers of the Royal army. Her Majesty's officers felt proud of the high honour and chivalrous conduct of their Indian comrades, but did not think it either just or fair to transfer them to commands in the Royal army over the heads of the regular officers of that army. He was acquainted with several officers who had served through the whole of the Spanish campaign, but they were only recognised to this moment as civilians, notwithstanding the distinguished services they might have performed, and under such circumstances the hon. gentlem an had no right to complain that the recent order merely con ferred upon Indian officers honorary rank. If the proposi tions of the hon. gentleman were acceded to, he (Colonel Dunne) believed that the services of none but officers could be obtained, because it could not be expected that the Indian army could be transferred from India and placed in her Majesty's service. Indeed, most of the Indian troops would be useless out of their own country. Many of them objected to cross the sea, and at the siege of Moultan they refused to work in the trenches. Though admirable troops in India and admirably commanded, they were not dis ciplined like the Royal troops, and they had seldom gained a victory without having been headed by British officers. Sir J. W. HOGG said he had listened with great atten tion to the suggestions made by his hon. friend (Sir E. Perry) in introducing the motion, and, having heard his hon. friend's panegyric upon the Indian army and its efficiency in every department, he had certainly been somewhat sur prised to find that his hon. friend, knowing the authority under which that army served, had arrived at the conclu sion that it ought now to be transferred from the authority by which it had been organised, and under which it had gained its present state of efficiency. The hon. gentleman spoke of some possible diiersion that mig ht be made by the Indian army in the present war, and then proposed that a Committee of the House of Commons should sit upon the question, and arrogate to themselves the functions of the Government both as to the policy of the war and the mode in which it was to b e con d uc t e d. (" N o no," from Sir E. 1 Perry.) The hon. gentleman had certainly spoken of expe. ditions to the Persian Gulf, to the Crimea, and to the val -1 leyegaels call o i u of transferpnt os h n e ft oom E r teuthopher committee Be s ot : hnt e te s ti; ei , edfuet consideration mentioning ttiioonn discuss f motion of his hon. friend was this--to in the first place how the army in o most available for -the present war thtehecommomnily:teaes.sesyteirraellys,lo - u t c h h e Go subjects yern inen_ would t. be T .h to e consider and inquire India might be made . 61 0 40131 v . „ ...i,,;„‘ ,_ ___,„.. ; and certainly it was " vii i nija in". 4 to tikv wsr, iv ay that —+ ri•v•ver ' after a committee had been sitting moflth after--month, re - porting to the houSe, and discussing the conduct of the warilarsotheecominiottbe ought to bo appointed to inquire how far the Indian army might be rendered, not effectual for general purposes, but actually available for the-pre sent war.. He would, however, tell his hon. friend that that was not the question which ought to be considered. The real question was, whether the Indian army, or any part of it, could be spared from India consistently with the safety of our Indian possessions. (Hear, hear.) That was not a question for a committee of the House, of Commons to determine. Nay, it was not a question to be determined by the Government of this country. It was a question to be decided by the Gavernor-General of India alone. The Governor-General, if he were the man he ought to be, and if he were a man of such experience and talent as he ever bad been, was alone competent to say whether a soldier could leaVe India with due regard to the safety and security of that mighty empire. This question, with regard to the Indian army being available, was not one of specula tion ; it was a question of fact. The experience of half a century showed that the Indian army had always been available. Had there been any, difficulty in rendering that army available for the expeditions to Egypt, Ceylon, Java. the Mauritius, the Eastern Archipelago, China, and _Althanistan ? He must, in passing, ex press his opinion that the Affghan war, th oug h f oug ht by the Indian army, and paid for by the Indian treasury, was essentially a European war. His hon. and learned friend might say that ho referred rather to the Indian offi:ers than to the Indian army ; and that was not so much a matter of speculation as of fact. Tier M ,, jesty's Government had Stated that they wanted the services of Indian officers, and what was the result ? Within a few dais, almost with in a few hours, hundreds of IndiAn officers volunteered, and at this mo ment there were many Indian officers serving this country under Generals Williams and Cannon. His hon. and learned friend had thought fit to constitute himself a judge as to whether the proper officers had or had not been selected. His hon, friend had named men whose distinction was recognised throughout India, and he (Sir J. Hogg) would be glad to see those gallant officers em ployed in the service ; but he must say that the officers who had already been selected were men of high distinc tion, and he was satisfied they would show themselves deserving of the confidence that had been reposed in them. His hen. friend proposed, by his motion, to in quire into the steps which it might be necessary to take if it should be deemed advisable to constitute the In- dian army a Royal army. He thought his, hon. friend would have been a little more logical if he had established the condition precedent, instead of proposing to enter into an inquiry which was consequent upon a condition that did not exist. His hon. friend had told the house that he had nothing definite to suggest. It appeared to him (Sir J. Hogg) that the hon. gentleman was enamoured of some change, and that if he could only obtain some change he did not care what it was. The hon. gentleman first put upon the paper a notice of motion for a kind of roving commission to inquire and see what Heaven would send them. The hon. gentleman, however, now asked for a committee.- He (Sir J. Hogg) was sure that if the hon. and learned gentleman was sitting on the bench where he had 80 long presided with honour to himself and advan tage to his country, and if any one were to make him such a . proposal as he had now submitted to the house, he would regard it as a kind of political bill of discovery, to see if anything could be discovered upon which some thing could be founded. (A. laugh.) His honourable friend had directed attention to three prominent points —the amalgamation of the two armies ; whether there should or should not be a distinct, separate, local army for India ; and, if there were to be a separate, distinct, local army for India, whether or not that army should be a Royal army. The hoc. gentleman said he felt a little diffi culty with respect to the subject of amalgamation, and ha (Sir J. Hogg) wag not surprised that he did se. Indeed his only surprise was that his hon. friend had not been more sensible of the difficulty, for he (Sir J. Hogg) re garded such an amalgamation as not merely a matter of of difficulty,but of impracticability. The two armies were, indeed, absolutely antagonistic the one to the other. In the Queen's army they had the system of purchase and exchange, and they had continual reliefs to different parts of the British empire, bat in the Company's army there was no purchase. In that army officers were gratuitously nominated to commissions; they did not rise by purchase, but solely by seniority ; and so rigid was that rule of seniority that exchange was precluded. In the Indian army, the junior lieutenant not only had a right to have the stipulated number of lieutenants above him, but by the rules of the service he was entitled to have thesame identical individual officers above him, and the rules of the service did not permit of any exchange under any circum stances. Then, with regard to the system of reliefs, the Indian army was a local army, and not only were its ser vices confined to India except under circumstances of pe culiar emergency, but, as a general rule, the ariny-ofeach presidency was confined to that presidency. He thought, then, he was justified in saying that the constitutions and arrangement of the two armies were not only different, but that they were actually opposed the one to the other There were, however, some other matters which his hon. friend had slurred over, but to which he (Sir J. Hogg) would ask the attention of the house. In the Indian army every officer, after a certain number of years' service, was entitled to retire upon the pay of his rank. There were also dif ferent funds —as, for instance, funds for widows and orphans, the contribution to id' was compulsory—pe culiar to the Indian army. How, then, was an amalgama tion to be effected? Would they assimilate the Queen's army to the Company's army, and give the former these boons, or would they, assimilate the Company's army to the Queen's and deprive them of their vested rights and. interests ? He asserted most confidently that amalgama tion was absolutely impracticable. What he bad said so far applied to the English officers and men ; but how would the suggested change affect the sepoys ? He would ask the house to listen to what Mr. Macaulay said of the sepoys. He said I--- "A hostile monarch may promise mountains of gold to our sepoys, on condition that they will desert the standard of the Company. The Company promises only a moderate pension after a lon - 4 service. But every sepoy knows that the promise of the Company will be kept, he knows that if ho lives 100 years his rice and salt are as secure as the salary of the Governor-General, and he knows that there is not another State in India which would not, in spite of the most solemn vows, leave him to die of hunger in a ditch as soon as ha ceased to be useful." • That was a true description of the sepoy at the present time. Now, the sepoy had failings, and hii prominent fail ing was suspicion, dislike, and fear of innovation. He (Sir J. Hogg) did not exceed the bounds of fact when he said thatany innovation excited and alarmed the distrust of the sepoy, even though ft were for his own benefit. He would read to the house the opinion of an officer of the Indian army, the historian of the Affgban war, with respect to the danger of tampering with the Sepoys, in consequence of their dread of innovation. Mr. Kaye said— "The people of India will bear a great deal, so long as they are used to it. They are very intolerant of change. They do not understand it. They are timid and suspicious. Benevolence and wisdom may go hand in hand in our mea sures, but the people are not easily persuaded that what wo are doing is for their good." This apprehension of change was peculiar to the people of India, and every man who had ruled that country had acted upon the principle of altering as little as possible the condition of the sepoys for fear of exciting some misap prehension. He (Sir J. Hogg) thought he had shown that the amalgamation of the two armies was impracticable, and he contended that, as they could not have such amal gamation, the army of India must be a separate, local, distinct army. At this moment 9-10ths of the army were natives. It must not only be a separate and distinct local army, bu'l it must be a native army.. We could not hold India by an exclusively European force. This country could not stand the drain of money and treasure the two treasuries of England and India could not stand the drain that would be necessary to hold India exclusively by a European force. If they could do so it would be perilous in the extreme, fatal to India, and fatal to our hold on that country, from the disaffection and jealousies which it would excite in the native mind. The army, then, must be local and native, but it must be officered by British officers in order to be effective. These officers must be familiar with the language, the religion, the usages, and the prejudices of the sepoys; and, if such were their quali fications, they could not fail to conciliate them and command their affections. (Hear, hear.) Without such qualificatio: s, instead of conciliation, we would have. alienation ; and this brought him to a remark of his hon. friend, As ho spoke of Indian officers as if it were an advan tage to be always looking to his native country. Now he (Sir J. W. Hogg) contended for exactly the reverse. The Indian officer, to be effective and useful in the capacities he had indicated, must go out young—he must go out not too old to be transplanted. He must take root in India, and feel and look at India as his home; and not only must he remain in India, but remain in the same regiment, that he might know the peculiarities of the natives at large, as well as every man individually in the regiment. The result showed that this was the fact. At the present moment there were I,ICO officers in the Indian army who, if they pleased, might retire on pensions, but who were so much attached to the country and so devoted to their profession and their men that they did not avail themselves of the privilege. (Hear, hear.) A European force could not be in itself a local force in any sense similar to that of the native army. It ought to be identified with the native army. If it was so, it would be a source of strength and confidence; if it was not it would fail to be either. (Hear, hear.) Then there were about 30,000 Queen's troops for the defence . of the Indian empire ; but these were only auxiliaries to the native army. They went out as auxiliaries, and remained such, their stay being usually short. In 1827 the Duke of Wellington said with reference to this very topic, " The queen's army are and must always be regarded as auxi liaries, and auxiliaries only, to the Indian army." Now, was this the effect of mere speculation ? Was this army in its present condition the work of any theory? No; like the best institutions of the country, it grew up and was altered as the exigency of circumstances required. It commenced from small beginnings, gradually increased, and slight changes were made in its constitution till at last it arrived at its present state of efficiency. (Hear.) It was a fabric reared by the wisdom of a hundred years. With it was associated mighty names and mighty interests. That fabric might be pulled down and destroyed by the imprudence and folly of an hour. (Hear, hear.) In the early periods of the Indian empire we had no army—there were jealousies and appreheneious in the way. The first soldiers we had were few in number, and they were Europeans: We had then no natives, and to show the jealousy that existed, he might state that the first we employed were the descendants of Portuguese, who were called topasses." About the middle of the last century, however, we got into disputes with the native princes, and then commenced the organisa tion of a native army. At first there were only three Bri tish officers to a regiment, and the Indian army had no officer holding the King's commission till 1780. The first regiment was formed, he believed in 1750, and was at the Battle of Plassy, under Lord Ciive. Such was the origin and constitution of the army as it now existed in India— , a separate and distinct local army, having the aid of her Majesty's troops, which wore changed after particular periods of service. It might be said, why could we not have a local Indian army which would at the same time be a royal army ? This raised the question, Sought the army to be transferred to the Crown ? His honourable friend said he would change it from being a local army, and thereby add to its honour, dignity, and consequence. He contended that the effect would be exactly the reverse. As an Indian army it had acquired glory and distinction such as no other army could exceed. Instead of having the dis tinction of being a separate army, if we Ounsferred it to the Crown it would become a kind of local army—it might become a sort of Ceylon regiment, or a West India regi• ment, but we would do away with all its prestige and its glory. (Hear, hear.) In 1832 Mountstewart Elphinstone, in reply to questions put to him on this subject by the Pre sident of the Board of Control, first spoke of the separation of the two governments, the civil from the military, as follows : "The separation of the civil government from the mili• tary would probably not answer in any country, but let at of all in India. The grgat problem there has always leen to maintain the subordffiation of the military power to the civil, and to preveut clashing between the governors and co mmanderg - in - chief. In this we have nqt always beery successful even when both drew their authority fafir the Same source." Then, epeakinglif the transfer of th; ain:iy e n the Crown, he said : " In that case, if the pride of officers was fora moment flattered by a more immediate connection with the King, that feeling would probably be altered when they disco vered that, from a separate service, which had a reputation and pretension of its own, and was the sole object of atten tion to the military department of its Government, they even sank into an inferior branch of another army, and scarcely known to the Commander-in-Chief." (Hear, hear.) That would be the fate of the Indian army •if it was transferred to the Crown, the "civil government being left with the East India Company. His hon. friend seemed to assume that he was fighting the battle of the Indian army and Indian officers, and as a foundation for `the assumption, ho read a single extract from a letter of a distinguished author. He (Sir J. W. Hogg) denied that his hon, friend spoke the wishes of the Indian army. He did not pretend to speak for the Indian army on this sub ject, but he had at least as good means as his hon. friend of knowing its sentiments, and be believed that nine tenths or ninoteen-twentieths of that army would strenu ously resist an amalgamation or transfer to the Crown. (Hear, hear.) His honourable friend referred to the opi nions of Lord 0 omwallis on this subject, and gave a short statement of what had passed at that time; but, as he did whole not give the statem en t, b e would supply the defi ciency. It was truethat before Lord Cornwallis left Indialie entertained the idea of en amalgamation of the Indian 'army with the Queen's, an d th at on h i s way hd me h o matured a plan which, on hi s arrival, he su b m itt e d t o the Government. But the moment the intentioa of Lord Cornwallis to recommend such an amalgamation became known iu India, the greatest ferment was created in the army, committees were formed and sat in London and different parts of the kingdom, and delegates were sent from the army in India. His honourable friend stated that the East India Company collected evidence. Now, he denied that the East India Company had collected evi dence; what was done was the spontaneous act-of the offi cers themselves, alarmed at the change contemplated. As far as his recollection of the facts served him, the " dele gates" sent over here by the Indian army were requested to change their names to agents, and they were received ~ y the Chairman of the Court of Directors and the Presi tent of the Board of Control as individual officers. He would now simply read them a portion of one report made by these delegates while the matter was pending, and another when it was concluded ; and the house then might draw their own inference as to the value of the argument founded on the opinions of Lord Cornwallis. Here was the report of the delegates—their own account of one of their verbal communications to the chairman :- - -- - "That we felt it our inclinatio;;;;;ell as our duty, to treat the Court of Directors with every respect; that our situation was unprecedented, as was the cause which had principally induced it. In all other cases, as public ser vants, we could look with confidence towards them alone as the channel of redress ' • but in the.present instance, where we had every reaso n to believe a change of masters was intended without deigning to consult us, we conceived that our being officers did not deprive us of the liberty en oyed by every other description of British subjects, namely the asserting, by every legal means, our natural rights as men. We were not slaves, to be transferred at the will or caprice of a master ! No Power had a right to convey its armies to another. That the officers in India had con tracted to serve the Company; if they were to be trans ferred to the King, it must be with thar own consent, and on such terms as they chose to stipulate." That was the case which his hon. friend coolly and delibe rately cited as a precedent for the change now sug gested, and represented as likely to be acceptable to the Indian army. When it was all over, and these same dele gates made their report to the various committees consti tuted in India—a nice state of things-truly for an army to be forming committees, and sending delegates home to re present them—they said : "It is with the sincerest gratification that we are at length able to congratulate you on the final adjustment and transmission of the new military arrangement Our brother officers will, we tryst, need no assurance from us, that we have not been deficient in zeal and exertion to obtain for them the solid advantages of rank, respectability, and ultimate independence, at the price of as few pecuniary sacrifices as possible. They will recollect that at the opening of the negotiation the subject was novel and the result hazardous ; that a system had been formed and supported by the highest authority and the most overbearing influence, which threatenej the subversion, root andjbranch, of those establishments to which; from long habit and from convic tion of their peculiar adaptation to our situation, we are firmly attached. We have happily succeeded in obtaining an arrangement constituted in most parts on the principles, which our constituents have themselves recommended. The reform has been temperate and cautious, and promises in time to be effectual. The principal causes of complaint have been removed, improvements have been introduced, and room left for further ameliorations when the system shall have stood the test of experience." Now, that was the course which the Indian army adopted in 1793 and 1794. What was, the state of that army in 1793 and '94 ? He meant as to the advantages they en joyed. They resisted the transfer to the Crown at a period when they did not enjoy any one of the advantages which had singe been conceded to them. At the period he had mentioned there were upwards of 1,500 English officers in *ho Company's service. Would not the house be astonished when ho told them that the highest rank to which those officers could attain was that of colonel ; that there were only I'2 colonels, 23 lieutenant-colonels, and 23 majors; that there was no retiring pension, no privilege of furlough to Europe, none of the advantages which they now en joyed? But yet, in spite of the position in which they were then placed, they resisted, as he had shown, the pro posed amalgamation. (Hear.) Mr. Dundas, then Presi dent of the Board of Control, was not an advocate for the amalgamation. Heproposed not amalgamation, but a trans fer to the Crown. However, Mr. Dnndas and Lord Corn wallis both saw what his hon. friend had not seen—namely, the difficulties of the case. They both consulted—which his hon. friend, be feared, had not done—the wishes of the In dian army. They were practical men, and they abandoned the scheme, which until this moment had never since been deliberately revived. His hon. friend had alluded to Lord Grenville. Now, there was a very distinguished officer who took a part in these very discussions, and who, when he had attained a mature age, was again, in 1332, interrogated on the subject of amalgamation, or transfer to the Crown. 7k.is w as what Colonel Sherwood said in reply : - " " V A period of nearly 37 years has now passed over since the Bengal, and indeed tho whole of the Indian Artillery were informed that Lord Cornwallis had proposed to the home authorities to ' incorporate them with the Royal Artillery, and to relieve them regularly from Woolwich.' I have a lively, mad I may say a painful, recollection of the sensation produced by this promulgation. The major part of the regiment was then at Dum-Dum, at their annual practice. A meeting was held upon the occasion, where the proposition was looked upon with absolute horror, as destructive of all those hopes, rights, and prospects with which we had entered the service a nd had remained with every disadvantage for years. The road to Woolwich' was pointed out as the road to ruin and despair. We thank God that this calamity was averted from us, and we for- vently pray it may so continue." That was the opinion of Col. Sherwood, looking back to the transactions of past times and answering the question put to him deliberately in writing. But, upon general principles, could it answer that the civil authority in India should be vested in one body, and the military in another ? His hon. friend was conversant with Indian history-. He would ask him whether such an arrangement answered in the early periods of that history, and whether he remem bered the endless differences which existed between the Queen's and the Company's officers before the harmonious union now established ? At that period the Queen's officers Went out with a great idea of their own importance. They held their commissions from the Crown, and did not serve a company of traders ; and the result of such ideas was that constant collisions occurred. But let the House look n ot, alone to the military, let them look at the peaceful pro fession to which his hon. friend belonged. Look to the Supreme Couit of Calcutta—to their arrogance when first constituted—to the injuries they did inflict and the ruin they would have inflicted upon India if their career had not been stopped by an act of Parliament. (Hear.) Why, it had been the aim and object of Parliament ever since to try, as far as lay in their power, to remove these ano malies, and they had at last succeeded in rendering the authorities, civil and military, subservient to the civil Government. His honourable friend had spoken as if ho would give the Company's officers the advantage enjoyed by the Queen's officers—namely, of coming home here and of getting commands ; but ho had not adverted, to the subject of reciprocity. (H e ar, hear.) If you' gave the Indian officers commands here, the necessary con sequence was that the Queen's officers must be eligible to all the civil and military staff appointments in India, from which they were now entirely excluded. Bat it would be impbssible to employ the Queen's officers for the pur pose of filling such appointments. No person could fill those appointments without passing some kind of examina tion. At the present moment there were 5,000 officers in the Indian army, 1,000 of whom were upon detached civil or military service. His hon. friend would allow that this at present formed some sort of vested interest, and were they to withdraw from the Indian army the whole of these advantages and let in the whole of the Queen's officers ? Could those officers be severed from their regi ments, and had they the necessary knowledge of the coun try, the language, and the prejudices of the natives? It was quite impossible that the Queen's officers, going out to India for a short time, could be so qualified, and this was quite inconsistent, moreover, with what he considered a requisite for India —namely, that you should have a local army. He did not think he was addressing a single indi vidual who did not wish to do justice to the Indian army, and whe did not recogfaise the glorious deeds of that army. (Hear.) But his hon. friend had read a most unfair °ate logue of victories, and had told the house they were fought under Queen's officers. Now, why were they so fought? Because the company's officers had been carefully excluded from such commands. (Hear.) So, those officers were not only to have their pride wounded and their interests de stroyed, but were afterwards to see held up, in a kind of juxtaposition injurious to them, the exploits which the Queen's officers had achieved. During the last 15 or 16 taarrmyy occasion, had a eig w ht hen to itcowmapalvaoin ue?hsAafeeddtweheat poy officers of m as a tb the d n soilain o years there had been eight gre a t occasions on which the Indian army had taken the field ; n amely, in the cam tl paigns of Affghanistan, Scinde , Gwalior, the Sutlej, the l Punjaub, and China; an d onl y on one of those occasions was the chief command give n to an o f ficer of the Indian arm y. Was not that an injustice of which the I n di an the Indian army in chief comma n d ? It was when Generals Pollock ls Pollock and Nott were employed to retrieve the disaste rs of Affghanistan. He could not , then, be told that th e officersr e ffi a e s o e rne wowfhetyrhe einferiorthey w e r Queen'se to army; r not ms nyd so ; fc o e o rmu without o n y o t employed compete pretending to s a y they were superior to the latter, he need not hesitate to assert that they were in every respect on a par with them. But it might be said that when there was a mixed army of Queen's and Company's troops that might be a reason for giving the chief command to a Queen's officer. Admitting that it was so, he then asked, what did they do w ith t h e i r divisional commands? For those divisional commands officers were required with a knowledge of the localitie s , languages, and population, which none but C ompany's officers were likely to possess. How did they divide the the divisional commands in the eight great campaigns to Which he had referred? Fourteen were given to Queen's officers, and nine to Company's officers. Was that fair . ? Was it fair, mot in reference to individuals, but to the public service, to keep these divisional commands rive lndia for • Queen's offic e r s , w h o m i g ht perhaps hav e ar • din only just before obt a i n i ng these appointment d s, an who were placed over the heads of the Company's officers, who had carved their way to distinction by their swords ? (Hear.) e Indian But there w ere o th er emp l o y men t s i n th I • an army from which Indian officers were practically excluded. Hada, an Indian offi cer ever h a d th e c h ie f command at Cale t Madras, or B om b ay ? P er h aps th e h ouse would be astonished ta, when he told th em th a t i n I n di an hi s t ory, from the days Plessey to th e g l or i es o f t h e S u tl e j an d Punjaub, they " L o d, never had an I n di an officer fitted for a n y o f those chief commands, if, indeed, such an inference were to be drawn frOM cue feet,44o ao i iaa (deer had (Ter be en peleeted THE SUN, LONDON., FRIDAY EVENING, -MAY il. 1855. to fill any of 'them. This matter bad been urged -again'and again on the Government by the ,India,n . authorities, and had been urged by himsaf as strenuously as he could urge any suit, but uniuccessfully. Daring the time he had mentioned, there had been twenty appoint ments to chief command, four of them being appoint ments to the command of the whole Indian army. The latter he gave up, for. when there were 30,000 Queen's troops in India it might be fair to give the - gene' al com mand to a Queen's officer. But the other 16 vacancies had also been filled up by Queen's officers, despite the anxious remonstrances of the Indian officers. There was an excuse for this course during a certain period. An illustrious Duke then at the head of the army had a strong opinion on the subject, and he (Sir J. Hogg) was not ashamed to say that he respected even the prejudices' of such a man. He therefore did not blame the Government for yielding to the strong feeling of that great man on the point. He was bound to say that on one occasion the noble lord the member for London did use his efforts to obtain a subor dinate command for an Indian officer, but they were un auccessful. The illustrious duke had so strong an im pression of the necessity of employing a Queen's officer that it was painful to press him to take a step in opposi tion to it. But since his death there had been three com mands vacant at Madras and Bombay, and in May last he (Sir J. Hogg), when ho heard the rumour of the appoint ment of General Anson, whom he admitted to be a diAin guished offiJer and an honour to his country, came down to the house and asked the light hon. , e - entleman (Sir C. Woo;l) whether the Government intended' to recommend an Indian officer for the command? He waS met by a vely curt, and in manner not very courteous, reply, being cut short by the answer that her Majesty's Govern ment had not taken the subject into consi aeration. (Hear, hear.) That might be the case, but the rumour that Gen. Anson was to be the man turue 1 out to be true, and he (Sir J. Hogg) made up his mind to adopt a different course in future ; and, on the occasion of the next vacancy, he gave notice of a. resolution, rather a strong one, in their little Parliament in Lombard-street, with respect to the conduct pursued towards the Indian army. The result was that a letter was written by the Chairman of the Company in accordance with the resolution, and to that a brief ready reply was written by the same right hon. gen tleman, giving, on behalf of the Government, an assurance that in future the claims of the Indian officers should be considered ; and of the sincerity of that assurance he had no doubt. (Hear.) The present motion was, in fact, the renewal of the charter discussion. Hitherto the Indian Government had always possessed and exercised the privi lege of levying, organising, and disbanding troops. That was an essential privilege, function, and attribute of the ruling power. Without a Company's army they could have no Company's government. A civil authority sup ported by an army not their own might aspire to the name of agents, and might be potent for mischief ; but they could not aspire to the name, dignity, or utility of a Government. This, which was true in respect to every Government, was more especially true with respect to India. If his hon. and learned friend thought it would conduce to the public in terest to review and reverse the settlement for the govern ment of India, so lately arrived at, let him say so. Let him make the attempt openly and avow his object, but he (Sir J. Hogg) prayed the house not to tamper with such a subject, and not to trifle with such topics as the Indian army and empire. Let them not give their ,support to a motion which would strip the existing Government of al" substantial power, and degrade it in the eyes of the coon try, while it would continue and even increase every evi said to be found in the existing system. (Hear, hear.) Sir DE LACY EVANS said, as he understood the ob. ject of his hon. and learned friend in proposing the ap pointment of a committee was to carry out the very object which he had himself more than once advocated, he had no option but to support the motion, without, however, bind ing himself to any proceeding which such a committee might think proper to adopt beyond that of giving power to the Government to employ the officers of the Indian army in Europe, as they were employed in India. He did not think the actual terms of the motion justified some of the arguments which had been advanced by the hon. gen tleman who had just sat down. The hon. gentleman sup posed that a question was to be submitted to a select com mittee as to the propriety of sending an expedition to the Persian Gulf— Sir J. HOGG intimated that the hon. and learned mem ber had used that argument in his speech. Sir DE L. EVAN 3 was not quite sure that the hon. and learned gentleman had introduced such an argument judi ciously—(a laugh)—but, after all, it was a mere argument. There was one part of the speech of the hon. gentleman in which he perfectly concurred—namely, that portion of his remarks which related to the injustice done to the eminent and distinguished officers of the Indian army. Rut while admiring the good feeling of the hon. gentleman on that point, he was rather surprised to find that his arguments completely supported the motion now under discussion. The hon. gentleman objected to tilt). introduction of such a motion at this particular time. Now he (Sir de Lacy Evans) thought there could not be a more fitting time than when the Government were looking for support from all quarters. The hon. gentleman was anxious to preserve everything in India in statu quo. Hon. members representing the Court of Directors had opposed every change, declaring that each one which had been proposed would subject the Indian em pire to ruin and perdition. Now, considerable alterations had been made in the Government of India within a very recent period'. The honourable gentleman at that time predicted the most serious results, but he still remained a member of the distinguished body with which he had been so long connected, and had not pointed out any serious results from the steps then taken. There was another part of the hon. gentleman's argument which tended to support the present motion. The hon. gentleman had intimated that, under the company, the Indian army had shown a considerable propensity to mu tiny. That surely was an argument in favour of some change in the existing system. One of the causes of predis position to mutiny was the want of a supreme authority in thearmy. There had been mutinies amongst the officers as well as amongst the men, but if they were recognised as officers belonging to this vast empire they would not be so ready to throw off the bonds of authority. (Hear.) In sup. porting this motion he did not advocate any serious altera tion in the organisation of the native regiments, because be considered their organisation essentially good. But the Go vernment had formerly made use of the Indian army in re gions beyond those to which they were limited by enlistment and in the present state of public affairs he thought it would be very desirable for a select committae to be appointed to investigate whether there should or should not be a change made with respect to the availableness of Indian officers, and especially of officers connected with the European part of the Indian force, for European and general imperial •pur. poses. He considered the proposition a perfectly reason able one under present cir,lumstances. (Hear.) If it should be found that the authorities in India could give almost an assurance that no internal convulsion or foreign aggression was likely to take place for a considerable period, why should the Government be deprived by any technical or legal difficulties from employing some pOrtie'n of the army, especially the European part cf the army, in the interme diate territory, to co-operate in the present contest ? lie did not think the employment of the sepoys in the Crimea wuuld be at all desirable, for there they would be quite out of their place. But there were European troops, and he did not know whether it would not be useful for these troops to be a little brushed up in the warfare in the Crimea, by which they would gain experience and confidence. He knew there were impediments in the way of the employment of the East India. Company's troops in the present European contest. In order to induce Indian officers to enter upon that service additional rank must be given,and ifGovernment were to make it known that they would rank equally in Europe, and that their services would be available in Europe as well as the services of the Queen's army, it would be a great ad vantage to the country. With respect to the statement of the hon. member as to the non-appointment of Indian officers to high commands, he (Sir De Lacy Evans) con sidered it a most scandalous thing that the officers in the Indian army should be deprived of these high commands, and see officers who knew nothing of India appointed in their stead. He was glad to hear that a promise had been given that another system should be adopted. Bat he should like to see something more definite, for another Minister might say, " My predecessor made a mistake." (Hear, hear.) As a Queen's officer, - he would say this, that if a selection had to be made, he should be ashamed to accept an appointment over the heads of men who, in the knowledge of the public, had proper claims to such appoint ment. (Cheer s .) The state of the Indian army was most anomalous. The Indian officers enjoyed a number of ap pointments, but not honourable ones; aid if an Indian officer distinguished himself, he only acquired a sort of social acquaintance. He should like very much to know whether any plan had been devised by which it was in tended practically to render these officers available for the Queen's service in England. It was most desirable to un derstand whether it was intended to remove all the legal difficulties to the employment of these officers in European warfare. (Hear.) He thought the motion of his hon. and learned friend a modest one, and that no dangerous conse quences were to be apprehended from its adoption. He con sidered it, extremely inconvenient and injurious to the public service of the country that ably and distinguished officers should not be liable to be employed upon every'ser vice in which they might be found useful • and believing it most desirable that the s erv i ces o f such' resin should be available to the Government, ho heartily supported the motion of his hon, and learned friend. (Cheers.) Mr. ' V. SMITH said the hon. and learned member who had submitted this motion to the house seemed at the end of his speech to shrink from his own proposal. The opinion of the hon. and gallant gentleman whohad seconded the motion was most valuable, but he did not seem to have looked at the result. Now it was to the resultthatthe house was bound to look, and he thought he should be able to show that a committee to inquire into this matter would be a very improper tribunal. The real point before the house was this—" Is this a question for a committee of the House of Commons ?" And, in considering that question, he entreated the house not. to be led away by any anxiety as to the warfare in which the country was engaged. He was prepared to say that it was the duty of the house and the Government to search in every direction for assistance, whether in India or any other quarter,in which it could be obtained. The late Government bad brought officers who had distinguished themselves at the Cape of Good Hope immediately to bear upon the Crimean expedition, and he saw no reason why the services of India officers might not be sought for the same purpose. (Hear, hear.) He agreed with the hon. and gallant general who had just sat down that Indian officers ought to be promoted to commands in India, but he did not think that would be the necessary re sult of the inquiries of a committee. The hon. member for Honiten (Sir J. Hogg) had referred to some inquiry which hehad on one occasionmade of the President of the Board of Control. Now, if the Lon. gentleman ever asked such a question again, he should receive as long 'an answer as he liked. (Laughter.) But he could not promise that an In dian officer should be preferred to a Queen's officer, if the Queen's officer should b e a man of greater merit. The rule ought to be that the best man should be put into the situ ation, whether he belonged to the Indian or the Queen's troops. (Hear.) In drawing Indian officers to serve in the Crimea, that was the rule to be abided by. Whilst the country was absorbed in the consideration of the war le the Crimea, other portions of tho empire ought not to be neglected. Now, was nut India an important part of the empire ? Now, so far as that country was concerned, with what power wore we at war ? Why, with Russia. Fur the last half century, repeated warnings had been given of Rus , ian aggression in India. Now, if we were to strip India of her best officers, we might lose our prestige in India and give a positive invitation to Russian aggression. (Hear.) (Hear.) That was a question that ought not to be now out of sight. (Hear.) In considering the! harem the house, he assured the hon. and rather in favour man that, if ho had any prejudice, it was g a llant ma gentle of the Indian ar. He admitted that w rd e a m ou i and those ties which wo re beneficial in lessa and times, gehtlayaside discipline he admitted that the etiquette of ae ro u tine might be very useful in time of te e s. h dttest men for every throw them aside, and select in war we must . His hon. and learned friend place in. the Queen seemed to hold ver ' y s s c e lle v a i p ce th b e y m t e h m e orandu mire rank which had been iss u e d suggestion, C o mmander-in-Chief gao and which officers of the at his (Mr. Smith's) Indian army Evans) had said that. did not con s ider Lacypiite so insignificant a boon. The gallant general (Sir this was s only question of social rank. He (Mr. Smith) apprehended tha t th e Cent of theialtioiladlibl would be - • I ; to give to Indian-officers by right the social rank which hid hitherto only been given by courtesy,,Aied to pre v_eit their being considered as inferioi in point of precedence to officers of the same standing in the Queen's army, as he believed they had hitherto been •conei dered. Besides this, he believed that its effect would be that if an officer had becOme say a major-general in the company's service, he might be sent to the Crimea or else where without requiring a new commission, and would rank according to the date of his original commission, and not according to the date of such appointment. At „pre sent, when in India a company's and a Queen's regiment were serving together, the officers commanding them ranked according to the dates of their commissions, anti the effect of this memorandum would be to apply the same rule in Europe. Therefore, to a certain degree, it did con fer military as well as social rank. Though he should have objected to the proposal first made by his hon. and upon this; learned friend, th a t an address should be voted to her Ma jesty praying h er t o appoint a eommission sub ject, he thought th a t an i nquiry before such a commission would have been preferable to that now proposed. The best course which the hon. and learned member could have taken would have been to have called the attention, of the house to the subject without asking eitherfor a commissien or a committee. Under all the circumstances he hoped the hon. and learned member would see the expediency of not pressing his motion to a division. Mr. OTWAY thought the present was a most appropri ate time for the discussion of this subject, because we now required assistance from all quarters. Indian officers were just the men whom we should be disposed to select for ser vice in this war. It was a very important consideration, that in consequence of the casualties which had occurred iu the Crimea, there were really very few officers who had served Et sufficient length of time to enable them to supply the vacancies with efficiency, and it was therefore neces sary that they should open the door to the entrance into the army of the Indian officers. He found upon looking over the regiments of the Guards that the junior captain iu the Grenadiers had only seen three years' service, and in the Fusilier s there were 18 officers who had only seen 13 years service among them. He was aware that it had been urged that they ought not to tamper with the native troops of India, but he could not understand how the Crown would be more likely to tamper with the natives than the East India Company were. In giving his vote for the committee he was mainly influenced, however, by one con sideration, and that was a desire, in the terms of the motion, that the house shoUld consider and inquire how the army of India might be made available for the war in Europe, and to inquire into the steps necessary to be taken if it should be deemed expedient to constitute the army of the East India Company a Royal army. (Hear, hear.) Mr. PHILLIMORE considered that many dangers might result from transferriug to this country so large a force as that of the Indian army without the checks and restraints with which the government of the army of this country was surrounded. Mr. DANBY SEYMOUR expressed considerable doubts as to the propriety of bringing forward so important a question as this at the present time. A very short time had elapsed since great changes had been effected in the Government of India, and the result of these changes had not yet been sufficiently tested. He thought that the question of the amalgamation of the two armies might well be deferred until the transference of the Indian empire to illhe Crown and the abolition of the East India Board. Mr. M'GREGOR considered the question before the house as one of grave importance, and one which ought not to be lightly dealt with by the House of Commons. He felt deeply that there never existed a House of Com mons which treated grave subjects with so much levity ; but a time was coming when hon. members would be called to a strict and severe account for their conduct. (Hear.) That night's debate would, he warned the Government, be the first of a series of debates on these questions, and they were mistaken if they thought they could get rid of them in the manner they seemed disposed to adopt. Sir E. PERRY replied—He regretted the determination the Government had come to on this question, which they had not treated with the gravity due to it, while they had evaded to meet the practical point of , the *motion altoge ther. The Government said that the committee was un necessary, for they had the power, by the exercise of the Queen's prerogative, to employ the Indian army i n E urope; but that was not so facile as they seemed to imagine. As to the practical point, how our forces in the Crimea could be increased in the most effective manner, that they had a voided to discuss. Under these circumstances, ho should certainly press the motion to a division. The house then divided, For the motion Against it Majority against the motion --109 MR. LAYARD'S MOTION. Mr. LAYARD said—Before proceeding with the orders of the day, I wish to say a word or two in order that there may be a clear understanding with regard to my motion. I think the noble lord at the head of the Government mis understood my intentions when he stated that I was about to force my motion on the house on Monday next. I had certainly no such intention. When I requested the noble lord to give me a night, he declined, and said I must find one for myself, and I then intimated that I would bring my motion forward on going into Committee of Supply. I understand that on Monday night there will be an impor tant motion in another place, and perhaps it would be for the convenience of the house if my motion were postponed till a later day. (Cheers.) I think, therefore, I had bet ter avail myself of the kind permission given me by the noble lord the other night, and find a day for myself. (Laughter and .heers.) EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL. On the motion for going into committee on this bill, Mr. CUMMING BRUCE said that, considering the late hour of the night (half-past ten), and the short discussion which had been had on the bill, and that many gentlemen desired to have an opportunity of delivering their sentiments on the measure, he would object to go on with the debate, and he should, therefore, move that the Speaker do not leave tho chair till some future day. (Peals of laughter.) As that would be an inconvenient motion, he should move that the debate be adjourned. Lord PALMERSTON hoped that the hon. gentleman would not persevere. This was a question of great itn portance, and at that hour the house generally began to till. He could not consent to the motion for adjournment, and he hoped the house would feel that it was trifling with a great question to pretend that at that hour of the night they were not capable of giving consideration to the bill. If hon. members would condense their speeches, all who wished to speak on this question would have ample time to do so that night. Mr. lIADFIELD trusted that the house would a.,ljoitz n the debate. There were six other bills down for discussion that night, so that the public time would not be Jost by the postponement of the debate on this bill r Alter 'a. few words from Mr. BLAUKEURN, who con trasted the course taken by the C,'overninont with respect to a bill concerning the whole people of Scotland with that which they had pursued with respect to one inefely affecting the local management of the metropolis, Mr. DISRAELI appealed to the noble lord at the bead of the Government to consent to the adjournment of the debate. It was perfectly clear that the discussion must be a lengthened one, that it could not be concluded that even ing but must be adjourned, and nothing would therefore be gained to the public service by commencing it at the late hour of the evening at which they had then arrived. Lord ELCHO said that he .felt there was the greatest desire on the part of the people of Scotland that this bill would be proceeded with without delay. The principle of the bill had been fully discussed on the second reading, and he therefore regarded the tactics of the hon. gentle men opposite as directed to postpone and eventually defeat a measure on which they had already sustained a defeat in a fair stand-up fight. In deference to the real feeling of the people of Scotland on this question, he hoped the noble lord at the head of the Government would not con sent to. he adjournment of the debate. • The Earl of MARCH could not allow the noble lord opposite to assume to himself to represent the feelings of the people of Scotland, which he believed were hostile to the present measure. This bill was one of vital importance to the people'of Scotland, and it was therefOre the duty of hon. members from that part of the country to secure its full and adequate . discussion. As he believed this was im possible at that late hour, he should vote for the adjourn ment. Mr. E. ELLICE, jun., expressed a hope that the noble lord at the head of the Government would not consent to the postponement of the debate. There was now a much fuller attendance to discuss the bill than (from the dryness of th• subject to English members) there was likely to be if the debate was brought forward at an earlier hour in the evening. The opinion of the people of Scotland on this question was sufficiently shown by the fact that there was a majority of three to one of the Scotsh members of the house in favour of the bill of the noble and learnd lord. Mr. FRANCIS SCOTT hoped that his hon. friend would press his motion for adjournment, as there had been an understanding that the debate on this bill should not come on after half-past ten o'clock in, the evening; Such under standings between the leaders of parties should be kept even if they were made in the lobby. The LORD-ADVOCATE denied that there bad been any such understanding. So far was that from being the case, that he positively refused to agree to such an arrange ment Mr. SCOTT said, that at all events it was his impression, and that of those who were with him, that there was such an understanding. He could not, however, rest his case on such a trivial ground. It was trifling with the people of Scotland to bring forward a debate of so much importance at an hour of the evening when it was imro sible that it could be fully and adequately discussed. So far from the opinion of the people of Scotland being in favour of this measure, it was clear f rom th e pet i t i ons that it was directly the reverse ' • for while the petitio ns i n f avour o f the bill were signed by only 1,400 persons, those against it received the signatures of 20,000 persons. honeying that it was impossible to finish the discussion that night, and that the debate must, therefore, be adjourned, he should cer tainly oppose their going on any further at that time. Mr. V. SCULLY obierved that Irish members were ac cused of obstructing the-progress of public business if they objected to proceed with any Irish bill, however important, at one o'clock in the morning. (A laugh). They were never able to bring on their business at the hour at which the house had thea arrived, and if it was to be settled as a rule that no Irish measure of importance should be brought on after eleven in the evening, he believed that not even one would be discussed in the course of the session. Mr. STIRLING said that if infustice had often been done to the people of Ireland, that was no reason why in justice should, on this occasion, be done to the people of Scotland. He should certainly vote for the adjournment, believing that it was impossible for them then to give the subject the attention which its importance deserved. The petitions that had been presented . upon this bill showed quite clearly that the opinion of the Scotch people was net in its favour; for while there were only 3 4 petitions, with 1,412 signatures, in its favour, there were 3.. W, with 2_4M: against it; and 309, with 16,87 3 signatures , praying for !t e alteration and amendment. Under these cireunist/o h ouse rh felt himselflully justified in prote stin g against th proceeding with it at that hour in the evening. The house then divided— •. 119 For the adjournment ................. 165 ...... Against ... i j .. a . j . ............ ................................. .............. ........ —46 Mr. C. BRUCE then m oved that it be au instruction to o t o th t e w r o t o b i t l l h s e , n t h e w e o s o n h e 0 r o e l s lt!tei Ti e r t o m t h i tt e e p e a t r o o c d h i i v a i l d s e c h th o e o l b s, i l th l i o n contemplated by the bill. The bill involved two principles—. expressi ustru c t itohno thou approval hi c h h a eox pro p osedel additionalnodt i le w d pael moans itneoecamaainlvve pr in c ipl es, the first, the association ofretigious with secular instruction, and the second, the extension of the means of education. h T o h n e . o m bj e e m et h o er r s th to e What he wanted was to maintain the parish sch oo l s". their existing connection with the Church,.whil educationthe supporters in those of d i strict s th e bill t w o provide here such were . j LORD ADVOCATE assenjted to t he motion. of the debate. The After a few words fro m M r. mng Bruce, Mr. Dunlop, and M Macgregor, Mr. Cum adjourned to Monday next. r• Cowan, the debate was The Infants Marriage BM The tite asjo, 21 Rai ''' v " reuttleanaliiiii: *NA Was 0.4 -- ' —_ _ 6 1•9 , 44 tin.. _ _ • 'The - Weights and s feasure Bill was read a second time. The Ecclesiastical Property (Ireland) IEII was read third time and pissed. The house - then vent into committee on the - Religious Worship Bill, which passed through that stage. On the motion for the second reading of the &niers - House Drainage Bill. Sir J. SHELLEY hoped the noble lord would not object under w o u o g u h l dt thisht ha that te bill. t s n h ci e u Hy t e. p o in to postpone the bill until some d ay a ft er next M o nd ay, all is Lt Nuisances ohradt Ew Ba Removal ; I m rNr o Gv i v T a d l eod ß Nf i I n l tr ; h when it mi g ht b e shown that the local b oar d s ,. un d er the the committee be po s t poned until Widnesda w o va was e d r t that o d do inexpedient. Re thou g ht th at it was highlydesirable coursew that a bill should be passed as soon an possible to render house drainage . as effectual as possible, in the face of cholera and other epidemics which might break out at any time when th e !owner set in, If the .house was not disposed to agree to this, he should throw the responsibility on them and the Government. He moved that the committee be fixed f o,r this day. Lord PALMERSTON thought that the bill might - stand for this day. • Sir J. SHELLEY withdrew his motion, and the coin mittee was fixed for this day. The Personal'Estates Bill was read a second time. GOVERNMENT OF VICTORIA. • • Lord J. RUSSELL moved for to bring in a bill to enable-her Majesty to assent to a bill, as emended, of the Legislature of Victoria, "to establish a constitution le an • for the colony of Victoria." Mr. LOWE was very sorty to be obliged to trouble the - house at that late hour with two or three observations, hut the great importance of the question, and the novelty as well as the very undesirable nature of the course about to be adopted, must be his excuse for doing soe The noble' lord gave notice of a bill to enable her Majesty to assent to an act of the Legislative Council of Victoria as that act had been amended. This • was a very-extraordinary motion. He would say nothing now of thebill, which could be die. cussed when it was before the house, but the form in which they were a b out to legislate was extremely objectionable, and he w as t h e more inclined to oppose it because he saw, from bead a notic e th at had been given what was intended to an npted in th e Council of New ' South Wales. In 1850 act w as Pass'ed, giving to the Legislative Councils of the Australian colonies power to frame n ew cons tit u ti ons f or themselves. Under that ' statute th e L eg i s l a ti ve C ounc il o f Victoria had passed that power .h a d be an act , th e pream b le of which recited been given it to •do so by: the statute of 1850; but then the acts overleapt and transcended by the Legislative Council of 1850, presuming to r th e powers contained in the act eneal nume and also to invest the Council • roue Imperial statutes, which it did not now possess, a w nci th a e , reat many powers of Parliament could confer upon wllich nothing but an act many respects altered the relation t h eoliNvbile it likewise in cil to the Imperial Legislature. This Legislative Comas Council of Victoria bad no more anthacktthe Legislative had any small knot of perso ns assembling t4a-Pass than room in the colony and calling the mse l ves a t u t/ n ether in a The Legislative Council, however, took it upon meeting, The pass this act, reciting the limited' powers given to • 43 by Parliament; and then, being conscious that it had ex ceeds those powers, it sent home, together with this bin, „horr act, which it suggested that Parliament Should pass is order to legalise,what it had done. Now, it would ' be most inconveniefft, as well as not very creditable, for the British 'Parliament to accede to such a request, while it would also be most inexpedient as an• example to ' the other colonies. Certain limited powers having been granted to the Legislative Council, it ought to have con fined itself strictly within its authority ; and whatever was wanted beyond those constitution powers should take the form of a gift and concession from the Imperial Par. liament to the colony, instead of the colony taking it in a shape that was illegal and void, and then sending its act home, accompanied by another short act, asking Parlia ment to confirm and ratify its irregularity. If this mo tion had been for a bill to assent to the act of the Legisla tive Council of Victoria, the course pursued by the Go vernment would have been sufficiently objectionable—but it was more objectionable still, because it was not merely • a bill to enable her Majesty to grant her consent, but really a bill to enable the Legislative Council to pass that which it had set up, though utterly void of law. The house was therefore asked, in fact, to give validity to -a law - which the Legislative Council had no authority to make, and which her Majesty had no power to agree to. The matter, however, did not stop there. The Legislative Council of Victoria, having passed an act which it had no power to pass, and then sent it h ome t o b e ma d e val i d, the noble lord did not approve of certain portions of this colonial act, and thought it not advisable to adopt them ; and, therefore, he had amended the colonial act by strik ing out those objectionable portions of it and inserting others in their place ; and then he asked Parliament to pass an act to enable her Majesty to assent, not to the bill which the Colonial Legislature had adopted, but another bill which the noble lord had devised. A bill when thus altered was no longer the same measure, but must be re • - garded as an entirely new one, and therefore the bill now proposed to be legalised could not be consideredas the bill that was passed by the Legislative Council of Victoria. As the noble lord had amended this bill, he presumed that the House of Commons could also amend it. (Hear.) If not, the simple effect would be to deprive the house of the power of amending an act of its own, because the act would be as much the act of this house as if it had never passed the Legislature of Victoria, that Legislature never having had power to pass it. They were, therefore, involv ing themselves in a me ss o f inextricable confusion, diffi culty, and anomaly, and they were placing the house in a situation in which it ought not to be placed—namely, in the situation of submitting to the dictation of a colonial as sembly as to what laws it should pass. He objected, therefore, entirely to the course which the noble lord pro posed to pursue, but he would suggest two courses, either of which would be free from any objection in principle. The noble lord might stand upon the ad of 1850, and say to the Legislative CounCil of Victoria, " You have ex ceeded your powers ; you- have done that which you had , no right to do, and I therefore send back the act , in order that yen may amend it." But, as the case was said to be one of emergency, the noble lord might also introduce a ' bill vesting in the Governor-General of the Australion co louies power to as-eut to the act so amended at once in the • name of her Majesty. That bill might also bo coupled - with another making such concessions to the Colonial Le gislature as the Legislature had assumed to itself without the - authority of Parliament, and giving to it the lard fund, and anything else which the noble lord thought it ought to have. The other course would be to do in effect what they now asked to do in substance—namely, to sweep away the machinery of enabling her Majesty to assent to a bill which the Colouial Legislature had never passed, and to legislate directly on the subject (bear, hear.) If the noble lord thought the house ought to make a constitution for the colony let them do it—(hear)—but let them have- , the question brought fairly before them, so that they :night know what they were about. ire protested against the plan of passing an r..ct to enable her Majesty to assent, • not to an act that had been passed by the Legislature of Victoria, but, to another and a different act, which, even had it been passed by that Legislature, had been passed by it ultra vires. (Hear, hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL did not think that either of the courses proposed by the hon. gentleman would be prefer able to that which the Government desired to adopt. The lion. gentleman was mistaken in supposing that it was pro- . posed to insert in this act provisions which the Legislature of Victoria had not sanctioned, but the,hon. gentleman was quite correct in stating that the enactments of the Legislature of Victoria were ultra vires, that they interfered with certain imperial acts, and that they touched upon matters which were strictly within the province of her Majesty and Parliament. He proposed, therefore, to take generally the act of the Legislature of Victoria as far as concerned its own constitution, but to omit certain propo sals which would limit the power vested in the Crown of disallowing the acts passed by the colonies. The bill, therefore, although it would certainly not contain all that the Legislature of Victoria had proposed, would not con tain anything to which it had not given its assent, and thus, iu his opinion, would be within the powers given bY Parliament to the Australian colonies to form constitutions for themselves. It must be recollected that both of these constitutions arrived in this country during the last re cess. If they had been sent back they could not have ar rived in time to give validity to these acts in the course of this session. The hon. gentleman said they would getinto inextricable confusion ; because a similar course would be pursued with regard to othercolonies. WithregardtoNew South Wales, it was quite true a similar course would be adopted, but the constitution proposed by the Legislative Council of New South Wales differ&l in some important respects from that proposed for Victoria. In Victoria, for instance, it was proposed that the Legislative Council I should be elected, in New South Wales, that the Legisla tive Council should be nominated by the Crown. With re gard to the, Legislative Council, the Government thought it • right that the wishes of the colony should be consulted, but when the act was passed with regard to Victoria and with re gard to New South Wales he did not apprehend there would . be any difficulty about the other colonies. With regard to Van Diemen's Land, they had already a cOnstitutionwhich was strictly within the powers given by the act of 1850, and that constitution having been laid before the two Houses of Parliament, had already been confirmed and approved by her Majesty in Council. With respect to South Australia, the constitution was agreed to, but the Council afterwards had several discussions and divisions, the result of which was a desire to indulge the Legislative Council in their wish to have it referred back to them ; and, accordingly, the matter was referred back, with discreto to the Governor to propose to the colony, whether elective or nominative, a Council i n suc h a ferm that he mig ht be' able to consent with ou t f ur th er r ef e rence to Farhatent. But he thought it in conven i en t to send this propos al not 0 changed.7l Victoria and New South Wales to be re-disc u ssed, wh it appeared their mind upon the subject' wasavers, bin., discussing•these 45. He should be quite ready, in they ought nto point out in what way he tho ught wou ld be Pe__ As the hon. gentleman said the schedules o w e parte . berg allcm'' se ewer to discussion, and if hon. mem bers tt d, it was in —a _ those schedules ought to be omi ho e u gb, of course, it was a of Parliament to alter theme would 4o so. With re. matter of discretion whetherthey this subject, he would say, spect to general legislatiosne on d in Australia that the manage s great desire was ex o Pr e s s and the revenues arising from ment of the waste lan ds , , disposition of the Colonial Govern. them, should be at the u tupon which the Australian colo ment- It was a a"--- and it would be most convenient if a • t great value, e carried into effect. mem se purpose wer e G. my suggested that leave should be given to bill for that p n. Alr . , -- t iesnoble now, but that further time should be bring in lord for re-considering the neati taken by the words from Mr. ADDERLIt "" After a few given to bring in the leav e w " g • of On the m o t i o n the ATTORNEY-GENERA.L a n d eave of was given to bring in a bill to continue an act of 13 14 Vi c t or ia, to enable the j u d ges of the courts ' common law at Westminster to alter the forms of The bills were br oug ht i n and sea pleading. house adjourned at half-p as t one o ' 1 a first time, an d the • A HARD SKULL —In the ------------ Calla o (Peru) . News of Feb. 10, we read as follows :—The approaching carnival sea son promises 'to be rich, rare, and racy in its character. By reference to our advertising columns, it will-be-seen that a butting match is in contemplation between the_ steward of the Wild Pigeon' and a rain celebrated for his strength and courage. It is almost unnecessary to add, that th e c h allenging party is a coloured ap. the Hoare idea of the s t rength of his skull may be formed from fact of hi s h av i ng, a d ay or two 31,1C8, head of a porter cask, upon which a heavy would make no impression. b ag .b e en just 'received From an official report, whi c h i st i ve to the cultivation by the French Government, relative that the results of the of tobacco in Algeria, it appears the 81st March, 1855, have season of 1854, ending on the ehauvyttsdin hammerthe year on all points of the exceeded those of the ri acquiredt p r e ceding hnut :t io_ ei o the considerable prov provinces c extension.e e o t Oran ed by the Government up to mar c l ua l t -itk pu a m_Auts to 2,93041 kiligrammeap acTonhldoe n t y ot a l n d Constantine th a t t h h a e; e p a Ott of AM' BB2{ " °°°•. t a h t s 31st0 9t' loo f a tb f