The Sun. — London, England, 1824-03-03 00:00:00

gatisfY the just expectations or the people—that die 'Window Tax was oppressive and unequal, and that in the opinion of :that House it ought totally to cease from the sth April next. seconded the motion. If, the flouse ne gatived the .vote- of this -night, he thought' the people would -stave-no .hopes of witnessing a further reduetiOn of taxittiOn.— ne thought the statetnent . of. the Right 416 n. Gentleman. - att to preseht stateof the cotintry had been fair, and indeed rather under than over what he might have been expected to say. He hoped due attention- would be paid to the imnOrtant interests tilrected by the propositions which the thancellOr of the Ex, Chequer had hrought forward - ; and approved of the measure announced with respect to bounties, but could wish the change effected by spreading it over a period of ten iftrs. He concurred with the lion. Member for Westminster its thinking the public were not satisfied with the reductions *posed, and in thinking that the repeal of the Window Tax would be the greatest of benefits ; and further thinking . with that flotwrable Gentleman that this and the whole of the As-. seated Taxes might ' , arch , be given up ; he would now confine himself to the N 8 indow Tax. and begged to call the attention o£, the Hoose to a paper which had issued in the last year from 14e Tax-oEte, directing a new survey to increase the produce of the-Assessed Taxes. Had that project been persevered in, he wit confident their table would now have been covered with :Petitions from all parts of the country. He arg,ued at some let i gth against the maintenance of a Sinking Fund, which he - 'attended was not necessary to support public credit. He -alksapnroved of the grant of 500,0001. to build Churches, and complained that when the Chancellor of the Exchequer had gbt, the Austrian payment, he acted as if " the money burnt in 1 his pocket," and seemed in a hurry to get rid of it. Though no man could he more anxious than . he was to see the Stovereign munificently lodged, he thought before so large sum as three millions sterling was voted for repairs of Windsor Castle, an inquiry ought' to take place to ascer tain if the means of restoring that might not be obtained by disposing of some of the other Royal Palaces, He pointed cut various savings which might be effected, and calculated that these would produce a surplus. or from 26 to 27,000,000/. in the next four years, which would enable the Government to unction the annual remission of 6, or 7.000,0001. in taxes. Public credit might be well sustained, if Ministers would hold, out additional inducements to accelerate the redemption of the . Land Tax. Thi s w o u ld tak e a b ou t 40,000,000/. of stockfroni. the money market, which would not fail to support public cre dit He strongly insisted on the importance of keeping faith with the public creditor, but maintained that for this purpose a Sinking Fund may not be wanted. The Redemption of the Land Tax would he sufficient for every purpose. He did not wish taxes reduced on speculation, but let the effect of this measure be tried, and if it succeeded let reduction of taxes fol low. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would give this subject his attention, and if he would do so he (Mr. Maherly) would not press for the repeal of another tax, till the result of the experiment should be known. If the ight Hon. Gentleman did not choose to adopt this measure himself on hii own responsibility, let it be referred to the consideration of a Committee. This done, he was confident it would be found that the means which he suggested might enable Govern ment to sanction a large reduction of taxes, which would add to the happineis of the people, and make his Majesty's liovetiment the most popular one ever known, and this, too, on sound principles which would not bring them popularity for a day, but which would entitle them to the lasting gratitude of the country. . The question being put, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, I must confess, Sir, that I feel myself in rather a difficult situation for it is not only my duty to defend my own propositions which I submitted to the House the other evening, but also to explain the grounds on which I think I can support them, and those on which' I cannot acquiesce in either of the plans of the Al ember for Westminster (Mr. Hobhouse), and the Member for Abing don' (Mr. Maberley). I trust, however, that I shall be able to justify the course I took the other evening, and to show there are no grounds for acceding to the plan of either of the Honourable Members. The contest between us is of a novel nature, for the question between us is not, as to the decrease of taxes on the one hand, or the existence of those maintained on the other; but whether one or two particular modes should be adopted, to give relief to the people. Ido not clearly under stand whether the Hon. Member for Abingdon intends to support the Hon. Member for Westminster. Ile admits that say propositions are just and right in themselves, but he wishes to superinduce an additional reduction of taxation by a con tingent plan for absorbing the Land Tax. He is content at present to wave all idea of the reduction of the Assessed Taxes until his plan shall have been carried into execution ; when, if it should succeed, it will be competent for the House to do so. He cannot therefore, in consistency, support the lion. Member fer 'Westminster. Besides, his plan has been already before the House. It was last Session submitted in detail to the House, and it met with no very active or strong support from any part of the House. There may be good reasons for inspiring the law relat ing to the reduction of the land tax, with more life and vigour. will not deny the necessity of some reasonable measures that description. But it should be borne in mind that the c'reumstances under which the progress now goes on slowly, are (Eanietrically opposite to those under which it proceeded rapidly. The funds were then low and the land high. It could be easily understood that the landholder had then an interest to transfer his stock for the redenwtion of his land-tax, but though agriculture had somewhat recovered from that depres sion it had suffered, yet there were not the same motives now in operation as at that period. The purpose of the Hon. Member tor Abingdon was to take out of the market 30 or 49,000,000/. of stock. - The inducement, however, must be strong, or the plan would be inoperative; and I do not think he is justified, on the assumption of the perfect success of the plan, to propose the reduction of the assessed taxes. The Hon. Member for West minster prefaced his motion by a great number of remarks which I think were not strictly applicable to the subject; but, p4haps, as he looks upon me as having followed the same course on a late occasion, I have no right to animadvert upon him fur imitating what lie considers to be my example. He thinks, that when I expressed the opinion, which I sincerely feel, that it must be a gratifying circumstance to Parliament to look round and witness the improvement that has taken I place—an improvement beyond the most sanguine expectations, not only of Parliament but 1 believe of the Hon. Gentleman himself; for, though I have frequently heard him dilate on the difficulties and distresses of the country, I never heard him once say that he contemplated for a moment that it could be relieved from those difficulties and distresses, except by cer tain alterations in the form and construction of this House, to which I will not now more fully allude : I say it appears, that when I paid what I considered a just compliment to arlia inent, tne Honourable Gentleman thinks that I overlooked all the merit of the people, that I neglected what was due to the energy with which they met and the fortitude with which they passed through those difficulties and distresses, and the virtues.which for so many ages have characterised the people of - England.—(Loud cheers and cries of " Hear"!)—! hope I never shall be found so ungrateful towards them, who are themselves ever grateful to their rulers for the happiness they enjoy, as to forget their merits or refrain one moment from making those acknowledgments which it may lie within my power to offer for the conduct they have displayed.—(Hear, hese 1)—I readily admit, as all mankind must feel, that it is not to the exertions of Parliament alone and unassisted, that we are to ascribe the happy result we have attained, but to the energy and spirit of the people that we are in a great part to attribute the relief'; of the nation—(Cheers,)—and I am con fident that the sentiments 1 expressed last year in the speech to which lie alluded, are not justly liable to the reproach he has passed upon- them. The Hon. Gentleman has argued this even ing that, much disappointment has been produced in the coun try by my statement.. He says it was not calculated to give satis faction or becobie in any respect popular. He complains that it is so made but as to convey the melancholy and gloomy prospect of no reduction of taxes for four years to come. lam well aware that my propositions are not, in the_ ordinary sense of the word, popular; but it would surely ill become a person in my situa tion :to overlook all , the great principles which lie ought to apply to the regulation- of the commerce' and finances of the country,—(Hear, hear, hear !)—inerely to obtain a temporary Populority.—(Cheers.)—lf he did, I am sure he could obtain no solid credit for himself : he could confer no solid good on the country.—(Cheers.)—From the unpopularity of my state nUnts, if it is indeed unpopular, as the Honourable Gentleman asserts, I am at least entitled to say that it is utterly impossible his M ajesty's Government can have had any earthly object in drawing it up, except to take advantage of the first favourable opportunity to call into activity and life those sound and en lightened principles which every man, whether on this side of the House or the other,every man,l believe in Parliament, every man I may say in England or any other country, who has applied his mind to the consideration of the subject, 'deems not only to be of the greatest importance relative to the intercourse of nations with each other, but absolutely essential to the well-being of states. This I consider to be a legitimate object. It is, I ens sure, one of which I shall never have reason to be ashamed.— (Cheers.),—But though the Hon. Gentleman admits my propo sitions to be right, he says they are not popular; they are not calculated to satisfy the just wishes of the people. If this were the first moment when the reduction of taxtion was taken into consideration—if the same distress was still in existence that pressed upon the country three or four years ago, the ques tion would assume a different shape ; but now I contend the Bon. Gentleman is for beginning .at the wrong end. He for gets all that Parliament has done. He forgets that during the last three years, three millions of Assessed Taxes have been re p ea l e d in this country, and the whole in Ireland. He forgets, that from regard to the well-being and comfort of the poorer classes, Parliament has repealed upwards of three millions of taxes on malt, salt, and leather. He also forgets the important proposition considered last year, and which the House was in. duced to carry, as it were by acelainstioy mean the ,proposi tion for reducing the duty on the distillation of spiri te in Ireland, by which a sacrifice of the revenue, to the extent of 800,000!. was made. Parliament cannot do everf thing at once. So 'ri diculous an attempt would only throweall things into, confuf 4 iOn- I have shewn, in the instances of the assessed taxes apd duties on malt, salt, and leather, that the Parliament has mani fested every disposition to relieve the people; I care not whether the Honourable Gentleman considers this result as the voluntary act of GpVeenment, or as forced upon 'us by the other side, or on both by the clamour of the country. The fact remains, that Government and Par liament have shown every disposition to relieve the pressure of taxation at the moment of its greatest pressure; and 1 say therefore, it is too much to charge us with indifference to the wants and wishes of the people, because at the first opportunity we proceed to adopt sound principles for the future, even though we do so in preference torn immediate remission of taxation. I hope that Parliament will support us in these just principles, by maintaining and upholding which we shall be enabled atno ,distant period to contribute still further to the reductiOn of tax ation.—(Cheers.)—l think therefore it is the duty of his Ma jesty's Government to watch with incessant vigilance, the pro motion of these principles. I should be ashamed if I kept them out of sight for an instant. I have recommended the first step to mount the ladder, and I hope the House will not suffer itself to be run aw a y wit h, to give a more immediate gratifica tion to the alleged wishes of the people, but that it will take a wider range and more comprehensive scope, and support me in that plan whihh, whatever there may be in its details liable to objection, I have not heard an individual in the House say is in principle wrong.—(Cheers.)—l shall now allude to that part of the Hon. Gentleman's speech in which he considers my statement, as precluding all possibility of expecting any fur ther reductions of taxations for a long period. When I took a view for four years to come, I did so bec ause I wished to pro ceed upon safe grounds. f would not incur any risk ; I would no go too fast, lest I should be driven back, and do mischief instead or benefit. I admit that the remissiou of taxa tion must, in every instance, produce positive good (Hear, hear !) and the means of a still further reduction (llcar, hear, hear !) but no man who looks at the subject with the eye of practical experience, and the forethought which a per son in my situation ought to exercise, would calculate that the reduction of taxation would so immediately pro duce these consequences, as the Honourable Gentleman seem s to expect.' There can be no doubt that the effect of reducing the assessed taxes will be greatly to increase the remainder ; but it is , impossible to assume the improvement within any given and limited time. I extended my calculation of the state of the finances to the next four years, for thd' puepose of shewing what would be the result, if, during that period, the revenue did not increase, nor the expenditure diminish ; but in fairness I ought not to have been understoood to say, that I did not expect the revenue to increase, or the expenditure to diminish. Nothing in - my opinion can be more unwise than to make a mere sanguine calculation, leading to error and dis appointment. I conceive that in the course I took, I was jus tified by every principle that ought to guide an individual in my situation. The Honourable Gentleman thinks me wrong in estimating my surplus, because I included the re -payment of the Austrian loan. I could not leave it out, because, if I made it available to the general service, it must be added to the general account; and I made no additional charges, except those for the Churches, Windsor Castle, and the pictures. If this loan had not been repaid, I think the country is in a situation that would have warranted me in asking for a grant for those objects, and the only difference would be, that I could not have proceeded so immediately to effect a reduction of taxation. 1 shall take this opportunity to advert to a subject of great importance, which was introduced into the last discussion on these questions by the Honourable Member for Midhurst (Mr. J. Smith), re specting the duty on law proceedings.—(Hear, hear !)—I was not insensible, I hope I never shall be suspected of being insensible, to the evils of those duties, though I confess I was not so strongly impressed at the moment of drawing out my plan, with the evils that do and must result from the operation of those duties lam hound to acknowledge that it was my fault that these duties did not enter into my plan of reduction—(Hear, hear, hear !) —I am strongly impressed with the infinite (I think that is not too strong an epithet) evil of these duties, and I ' have endeavoured, by all means in my power, to find out a mode by which those duties may be reduced, and it is with the greatest possible satisfaction that I now state that these duties may be reduced without infringing on the principle of the calculation I submitted a few evenings ago. I am aware that I am making a statement that will expose me to reproach. —(Cheers from the Opposition Benches.)—l am happy then to find that it will not be the case.—(Cheers.e--1 feel grateful to the House for the kindness with which they allow me to correct my mistakes. I said these duties produced infinite evil, —they have been in existence more than a century, though that is no argument in their favour. The only argument I have ever heard for them is, that they have a tendency to prevent litigation.—Uiesr, hear !)—I doubt the fact ; but it is quite certain that whatever good may be produced from the prevention of litigation, is ten thousand times less than the evil they pro duce if they deny justice to one man.—(Cheers.)—On look ing into the detail, I was gratified to find that, in point of fact, these duties in England did not exceed 180,000/, and as to Ire land, though I could make no calculation, I think I may safely take the produce at 20,000/. The sum, therefore, to be made up to meet the loss to th e revenue will'be 200,000/. I have cast about to find the means to provide for this deficiency, anti 1 will now tell the House where I got them. There are two modes by which it is practicable to effect a reduction of taxa tion ; one is by finding other resources, the other by reducing the expenditure.—(Cries of " Hear, hear, hear!")—Don't let the House suppose that lam going to propose a new tax. I am not about to treat it as a matter of composition ; but it hap pens that in the calculation I made, I omitted to advert to an important source of revenue, vfrom which may be expected, though of late years it has brought nothing into the Trea sury—l allude to the Crown lands. By the provisions of the Civil List Act, this branch of the revenue is placed under a par ticular department; and the profits are applicable to the public revenue. They form part of the Royal property, but are al ways assigned to the public service, like what are called the he reditary revenues of the Crown. They have always excited the attention and vigilance of Parliament, as consisting partly of the royal forests, from whence comes the supply of timber for the navy. The income from this source has been considerably in creased, but it has hitherto been absorbed, or more in certain expences; in the formation of the new street.. No less a sum than 600,0001. has been borrowed at 5 per cent. on the credit of the new street. The interest has since been reduced to 4 per cent. These expences have now ceased. For some years the only sum paid into the Exchequer from the Crown Lands, has been a sum of 900 or 1,000/., arising from a lease of some alum mines in Yorkshire. I estimate, however, that in 1825, this branch of the revenue will he enabled to pay into the treasury a considerable sum, which, in 1826 and 1827, will be still further increased. I think I may safely venture to calcu late on 100,0001. per annum. In that way I shall find means to meet half the loss. The other half I expect to derive from the regulations now in progress for the more efficient ma nagement of the collection of the public revenue, I have re ceived a communication from my Right lion. Friend, who is at the head of the Commision ; and from what he has inform ed me is already done, and proposed to be done hereafter, I feel authorised to venture to calculate at least on an addi tional 100,000/. from that source. In my former statement I assumed 50,000/. for the Customs, but not for any other de partment. I think I can rely safely on this calculation; and I hope it will not be the less acceptable to the House on that ac count.—(Hear, hear !)—I do not think it necessary to follow the lion. Gentleman into the subject of the grant for building churches. His admission is just and important,. that he would be the last man in the world to object to the grant, if its-ne eessity could be elieWn. I 'should not have asked for it unless I was confident I could have shown the necessity, and that the money already granted for that purpose had been properly and beneficially applied. That question, however, does not affect the matter at issue between the Hon. Gentleman and myself. It appears to me, that the Hon. Gentleman is involved in a ra dical error.—(A laugh 1)—I do not mean any joke, I assure him (Hear, hear, hear); but he assumes that Government can afford not only the million I propose to take away, but also the 700,000/., lie proposes to take away. Mr. HOBEIOUSE (across the table) intimated that he al luded to the Austrian loan. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.—But what will the Honourable Gentleman do then for next year ? He does not take quite so business-like a view of these subjects as I am bound to do. I look forward to the next year. I do not deny the value or weight of the objection that the Assessed Taxes press on the people. I admit they press with severity, and therefore when I could I considered it right to lighten the pressure by a remission of 2,200,0001. The Honourable Gen tleman has referred to some censure that has been imputed to me for something that has been done in the collection of the duty on windows. The Tax-office directed the surveyors' to make a fresh survey of their districts, and it is true that in the letter there was certainly an allusion to the per centage that would be allowed if the surcharges were established. I am glad to give an explanation of what Government really intended in that measure, and of what guided me in sanctioning that survey.. It was represented to me that there was a great inequality, in certain parts of the country, in the mode in which the house tax was assessed. It was represented that some houses, legally liable, were not assessed, and that others of exactly the same rent, size, convenience, and nature, were assessed at different rates. Nobody will venture to deny that it is of the essence of justice in a tax that it should be equal, and that if evasion is practised by one pet:on at the expence of another, the difference taken from the latter is, in fact, robbed from him. It was found that the inequality in the case of the house tax prevailed to a great extent; and the result of the fresh survey was, that the total produce of the house tax was raised considerably - above the amount of last year. It has been objected that I ought not thus to screw out the last farthing • that the Act will authorize me to extort : but 1 will tell the Illonourable Gentleman What my object was in this emit . ' sur e yey. If it had turned out that by raising, the tax , equally and justly, the total produce had been increased beyond whnt I had calculated, Ishould have felt myself bound in justice, can sistency, and fair dealing, to have come down to this House, anti proposed a reduction of the rate.---(Cheers.)—But as the object of the survey was misunderstood, and it excited somuch clamour, I directed the surcharges not to be enforced: I feel it my duty to state, that I shall now direct the survey to be continued; for I do not think it fair for one man to escape at the ex penee of another. If it should increase the total produce of the tax, that will be a fair groMid for reducing the rate of the assessment.—(Hear !)—I am glad to have had this opportunity of giving this explanation here, where alone I can give it. .I will not trouble the House further. I shall not re-argue the question of the Sinking Fund. It would be useless, since the House has decided it, and I will not weary the attention of the Members with a repetition of arguments, which, however un palatable to th e Hon. Gentlem an , is perfectly satisfactory to the House. I presume that ,the Muse is not disposed to depart from the principles they have so recently sanctioned, and rescind the law they passed the last Session. The House cannot adopt my plan and his in concurrence. I think mine is the best under present circumstances, and I confidently leave the question to the decision of the House, satisfied that they will not consider that in the course I have pursued; I have not acted with in difference towards the Wants, wishes. and feelings of the people, but in an honest endeaYour to discharge my duty on sound and liberal principles. [The Rig4,Hon. Gentleman concluded amidst very great cheering.] Mr. JOHN SMITH, on looking back to the conduct of the people of England for some years past, considered them to have a claim irresistible to every possible reduction -of the public burdens. The country was now in a state of prosperity which he hoped would continue. He wished that 800,0001. were not to be withdrawn from that sum which might be re mitted to the people to erect Churches and repair a Royal Palace: He knew very well that it was incurring muchodium to oppose the building of churches, but he did oppose it ; and he could see no earthly reason why, cons istently with his duty he should be justified in voting away 500,009/. for any such reason. He was convinced that churches and chapels of the Church of England would grow up as fast as they were want ed, if the doubt were removed as to the parties obtaining permission to have service performed in them. He was one who had a high opinion of the plan of the Hon. Member for Abingdon, for redeeming the Land Tax. If the country should be plunged into hostilities, he thought the plan, if adopted, would furnish the country with the strongest means of supporting it. Mr. GIPPS supported 'the grant for building churches, and referred to the last Report of the Commissioners, to shew that they had been obliged, in many instances, to reject the appli cation of parishes. Mr. WHITMORE said, that what they had heard that night was calculated to reflect the highest honour upon the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, and nothing could more tend to develope the resources of the country than the plans which. be laid down to the House. He desired to express his grati tude to him, and he was sure he would also obtain the gratitude of the whole country as soon as the advantages of his measures began to be felt. It gave him great pleasure to see true principle followed by Gentlemen in power, and he only re gretted that the principle was not carried farther. There was one part of it, which was part and parcel of the whole, anti which indeed he might call the ground-work of all, and without which they could not attain their object, which was of the most vital interest to the pub lic whether regarded 'as producers or consumers, that yet remained to be done. The House would see that he alluded to the trade in corn. He trusted that all prejudice upon that subject would wearaway—he trusted that Gentleman would see the evil of the existing system—he trusted to see that true policy and principle which he knew to be good, not in theory only, but in practice all over the world, recognised and adopted by that House. Above all, he hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would, at least, prove true to his principles, and submit the ques tion to the consideration of the House. He should not now pursue the subject farther, but the strong feelings he entertained upon it, stronger than when he last brought it before the House had Prompted him to make these observations ; and, if they did not grow regularly out of the question, he trusted the House would excuse him on that account.—(Hear, hear!)—Upon a matured view of the subject he did not feel disposed to give his vote with the Hon. Memb er f o r Nlrest m i nster. H e thought the Right Hon. Gentleman h a d gone as f ar as poss i ble, and that it would not be consistent of keeping with his pl a n, i n w hi c h b e (Mr. W.) entirely agreed, up a considerabl e surp l us of in come over expenditure, to give up any further amount of taxation. However unwilling he was at all times to vote for the continuation of a tax up on the duty to do so upon the present occas i on .—(llear, hear !) give hi s vote Lord ALTHORFE said he desired shortly to state the rea sons why he shouldpeople, he must feel it his in favour of the proposition of his Hon. Friend. Re agreed ent i re ly i n the principles upon which his Right Hun- Fr iend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) H u n ' was acting; and had learned with the greatest pleasure, the intended reduction of the tax upont hat aw night, the pro c e s e t si t n e had con v i nced him that a more intolerable g in s e - iltf All the inquiry which he could make into that su bj e ct, grievance did not exist. his Right Hon. Friend had made an excuse for changing his arrangements ; but as long as can- - dour and integrit/ were considered virtues in th a t Ho u s e , his this trib ute to hi s Ri g h t H on. F riend, h e Right Honourab le Friend would have no occasion to demand excuse. In paying was affording . to himself a great pleasure and satisfaction, be cause a long Intimacy and fri en d s hip h a d conv i nce d hi m h ow well it was des e rved. The H ouse , if i t h a d atten d e d to t h e sentiments which he occasion a ll y expresse d, would be aware that he had a very s t rong feeling upon the subject of the Sinking Fund. The more he looked at that subject, and s a w money, together the reduction which had taken ace upon the interest of increasing prosperity of the coun try, the more he was co nvinced that there was no neces sity for supporting with the that Fund. The National Debt was no thing more than a perpetual annuity, with a fixed nominal amount, at which it could laci redeemed. It appeared to him, therefore, to be much the'same thing to reduce one-tenth of that nominal amount, onto buy up one-tenth of the annuity. If they applied themselves to re d uce t h e amoun t o f th e an nuity itself, or what is .eniinonly called the interest of the Debt, the mode was to reduce the market rate of interest upon money. Looking at the reduction of the interest on money which had taken place within the last two years, he could not view it as the result of the operation of the Sinking Fund, but of the increased wealth of the country. 'Wh a t was t h e o p erat i on o f this Sinking Fund upon the 27 milli ons w hi c h f orme d t h e inte rest of the debt ? He believed it was 150,0001. a year. Could the House believe that such an operation could have any effect upon the supply and demand of the market ? If not, would it not be better to give these five millions hack to the pockets of the people, as the means of accumulating further wealth ? (Hear, hear !)—These were the views which lie took of the question, and for these reasons he should vote for the reduction of taxes, and consequently for the motion now before the House. —(Hear, hear!)) Mr. TARING said, that the turn which' the question had taken was that which related to the propriety of maintaining a Sinking Fund ; and it must necessarily be one of the greatest questions that could demand their attention, when they had to decide whether a great country like this should go on with or without such a support to its public credit. The observations of his Noble Friend upon that subject, seemed to have created some impression upon that side of the House; he should take the liberty of offering a few remarks upon what his Noble Friend 'bait said ; and he must say, that when he remembered the respect he had always enter tained for his Noble Friend's talent, and more particularly for his good sense, lie thought the arguments just made use of were the strangest he 114 d ever, heard. I-lis Noble Friend had said truly, that the interest of the National Debt was an annuity, and that the capital was the nominal amount at which it could be redeemed. His Noble Friend had also said that the price of stock did not depend upon the operation, of the Sinking Fund, and in that he differed from him ; for he believed it en tirely to depend upon that cause. He rated much higher than his Noble Friend did, the effect of a constant purchase in the market, though comparatively small in amount. But be sides that, the public creditor would look to his security. And could any man of common understanding, who saw the alter nations of peace and war, which the history of any century in any country would afford, behold a Government borrowing in time of war, and paying off nothing in time of peace, and have any confidence in his security for payment? The result would be directly the reverse. A low rate of interest upon money did not necessarily imply a high price of stocks. In France it had happened that while the Government five per cents. were between 50 and 60, money could be borrowed in the market at two and a half. In Holland, at this moment, money could be had by private parties at less than three, and the Government were obliged to pay five, because they had no security to give, the resources being below the expenditure, and all men were able to see that sooner or later their capi tal must suffer. He was surprised to hear Gentlemen speak, as they often did, about the Sinking Fund, and he should like to hear any one of them say what would be the natural course of things in the event of war, if no provision were made for the payment of what had previously been borrowed ? He considered the Funded System and a Sinking Fund to be most applicable to the natural events which mark the pro. gross of nations. It was subject to abuse, but if used with moderation, it was a system of perfect wisdom. They must look to the possibilities of war, and lie was sure his Honourable' Friend, the Member for Westminster, would not be very backward in putting the country into :a war.—(Hear and a 1.-aigh.)—lf they had many Quakers in the House, the case would be different. But, however peaceful might be their intentions, insults might be put upon the country, and injury done to her interests, which could not be overlooked. Supposing they . should require to tnake t a remonstrance to' Russia or France; an anti) , must be' assembled, yet the cleud might pass over in a month. Would the House, think of taxing the country upon such an occasion, or would it not ba infinitely wiser to borrow the fewrmilljjpns that may be wanted, and make provision for repaying the loan in more tranquil times. - When a man became like the last, of 25 years dur ation, that was a different thing, and taxation must in that case be resorted to, as in the administration of Lord Sid m o u th. H e was not an admireri of that administration, yet when Lord Sid mouth saw that the war was assuming a permanent character, he came down to the House with a bold measure, and proposed a large imposition of taxes. He himself represented a popu lous town, where the right of voting was carried as low as al most in any place, and he was not insensible to market place popularity. By talking of the number of taxes repealed and other such topics, that popularity was easily earned ; but their first duty was to see what could be done with safety to the credit of the country, and with a view to its future means and resources. He chiefly rose to state his opinion that by taking away the five millions surplus, Sinking Fund it was called, and he confessed it had a bad name, that had fallen into ridicule, they would be destroying the credit and prosperity of the country. They would have no security without it—they would have no respect from Foreign Powers, who, on the con trary would laugh at them, the first time they went with their pockets empty. They had much better have their navy in dis order than their finances and treasury, for they were the real power of the county, and the heart-strings of all its greatness. If he might produce a •budget of his own after the example of other Honourable Members, he would offer some observa tions upon the - proposed manner 'of reducing taxation. He thought the remainder of the Salt Tax was not a good tax to repeal.—(Hear !)—lle knew that every tax was a nuisance, and was good to be repealed, but the, question for their con sideration was, what repeals would be best for the people at large. He: had inquired among, the lower classes, and he found that they thought nothing of the remaining tax upon salt. If they were asked what taxes pressed most heavily upon them, salt would be the last article they would name. He thought the manufacturers were right with regard to silks. Al though our silks might compete with foreigners after a certain time, yet if the importation of the foreign article' were allowed, our merfufacturers would be completely thrown out of employ at first. But if the importation were not allowed, then the duty on the raw material need not be taken off; and the duty, amounting to 400,0001. with that on salt, about 500,0001. might be employed in some other way ; and he should recommend the Right Hon. Gentleman to look at the Window Tax. It was always better to repeal direct taxes, than those which were mixed up with the price of an article. It would remove that most disagreeable of all persons, the tax-gatherer, who always came when he was least wanted.—(Hear !)—He entirely con. curred in the principles upon which the Right lion. Chancel lor of the Exchequer was acting. If he went on to pursue them, and peace should continue, they might soon find even the Three per Cents. to be objects of reduction. He had seen in Holland Two and a Half per Cent. Stock above par—be tween 105 and 106. With regard to the measure of his Hon Friend relating to the Land Tax, he thought it good as a mea sure, but he could not understand how it could enable them to reduce taxation. The Hon. Member concluded by expressing his confidence in the resources of the co untr y, if the principles recommended by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, were left to have their due operation. Lord ALTHORPE and Mr. BARING mutually explained. Mr. W. SMITH argued against some of the conclusions drawn by the Hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Baring). He thought the allusion to Holland was an unfortunate one. In that country his Hon. Friend had stated that the taxes were not equal to the expenditure ; and of course the capitalist would see that the deficit was made up by annual loans, and therefore be afraid of his security. He trusted that the Salt Tax would be reduced, because he objected to the machinery by which it was raised. He did not believe, hoirever, that the remaining two shillings would press heavily upon the people. He thought the Window Tax better to be repealed than the House Tax, because the latter was easier collected, and with the former would be abolished those vexatious inspections, would d re which people felt as a greater annoyance th an p a yi ng th e mo ney. The House Tax would only requir e th a t t h ey s h ou ld k a t i t they would see th e r e nt o f the house, It had b een argue d as if t h e cdu c andn of h rate , and accordingly.w tax destroy the whol e o f th e Si n ki ng Fund, which w a s by no means the case. He sh ou ld vo t e f or the motion. is L or d MILTON wi s h e d th e H on. Memb er for Taunton to reduction 00 0 the fix t o t consider the question in his powerful mind, whether the credit of the country did not rest upon some other basis than the Sink ing F un d ; whether it did not gain something from that House being in a certain degree the representatives of the people-- from the country governing itself in itself, and being subject to the controul of no master. He should like to know whether the Hon. Member) would not advance a loan to this or any other free country without a surplus, rather than to the Grand. Seignor with ever so large a one. It became a ques. tion, whether the Sinking Fund was necessary or not, for the whole gist of the motion turned upon that. He confessed he saw somewhat of injustice in this Sinking. Fund. It called upon all classes to pay a tax whose object was to raise the price of stock. Ile would ask, if such a fund were laid out in the purchase of land, whether it would not raise the price of,land ? Upon this ground, the country ought not to be taxed fora particular class. He objected to the maintenance of the Sinking Fund. There appeared to him to be two ways of reducing the debt. One was that of reducing the nominal amount, the other reducing the pressure of the debt by increasing the capital on which a operates. The amount of the debt was oppressive in relation to the extent of pro perty in the country ; therefore by increasing the capital they reduced the debt. As long as the Sinking Fund existed he thought the country had a right to call upon the House for a reduction of taxes. He felt that the Right lion. Gentleman opposite justly deserved the applauses which his conduct called forth on all sides. He hoped that he would not listen to the insinuations which would lead him not to repeal the Salt Tax, and that he would alter no part of his intentions with regard to Silk. In these measures he entirely concurred; but he cer tainly should not have chosen coals as an article of reduction, because it would not afford general relief, and he thought other parts of the country h a d as much claim upon them as the City of London. He approved of the general measures of the Right Hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer, but he did not think reduction had gone far enough, and therefore he should support the motion. Mr. HUME contended that the Government ought to give up the Sinking Fund, and by retrenching the expenditure, create a new surplus. To those who hesitated in voting for the motion out of respect to the Sinking Fund, he would pledge his existence that before they met again Ministers would have reduced the establishments to the amount which they took off. The Hon. Member then went on to argue that the military expenditure was too large, and that the Sinking Fund had al. ways been a delusion to the country. The Hon. Member con tended, that the loan' negociated with the Bank was improvi dent, and the supposed advantages derived from the Sinking Fund delusive. Mr. SYRICS supported the motion. Mr. HOBHOUSE (amidst a loud cry of question) replied. The question the House of Commons had to decide that night was, whether the people of England were to pay for four years 56,000,000 taxes ? He was sure whatever might be the opinion in that House, the general opinion out of the House would be in favour of the repeal. The House then divided.— For the Motion Against it - -88 - - - 155 Majority - -67 The other Orders of the Day were disposetrof, and the House adjourned at TWELVE O'CLOCK. THE ARMY. [From the LONDON GAZETTE of last night.] Commissions signed by the Lord-Lieutenant of the County- Palatine of Lancaster: Furness Troop of Yeomanry Cavalry—William Fell, Gent., to be Lieutenant ; William Fell, Gent., to be Second Lieuten ant ; William Town, Gent., to be ditto ; Wm. Town, Gent., to be Cornet; Edw. Stanley Richmond Gale Braddyll, Gent., to be ditto. . Liverpool Corps of Yeomanry Cavalry—William Wilson, Gent., to be Cornet. Wigan Light Horse Volunteers—John Lord, Gent., to be Cornet. Great exertions are making to complete the alterations, repairs, improvements, and new decorations In St. James's Palace, by the day appointed for the celebration of the King's birth-day. A letter dated Christinia, 3d Feb. says— " The weather continues to be still mild; with very little snow. There has been great activity in bringing down the timber, floats and deals, which has given us a large supply. Hence a brisk and beneficial export trade is looked forward to thi. year. The sea has continued open, and it is only within these few days that the channel froze and set fast several Vessels." PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Martis, die Martii, 1824. ROADS—Glossop and ,Marple Bridge; Wbitchurch, .Sar 26 ' l7 and Bullock Smithy, and Leeds and Collingham—Bills or dered to be brought in. Bolton and Citorleyßill read rk second time, and committed. Kidwetly—Bill read a third time, and passed. Blackburn and PrestonLTetition fro Clitheroe, in favour, to lie on the table. PLYMOUTH EMBANKMENT—Petition of Inhabitants of Ply mouth, against, to lie on the table. INGLOSUR ES —linelston (Derby)—Bill read a second time, ant committed. Chindley (Derby)--Petition from Glossop en' Brownside, against, referred to the Committee on the Bill. ~ CANAL—Glamorgan—Bill read a fi rs t ti me . B r i sto l an d Taunton—Petition for Bill reported, Report to lie on the table. • RAlLWAY—Redruth COAL TRADE—Newcastle Bills ordered to be' LIG HTII4 o—Camberwell brought in. WATER ' WORKs—Cheltenham POLlCE—Bathgate—Bill read a first time. IMPROVEMENT — Brompton-square—Petition of Owners and Occupiers of Houses, against, referred to the Committee 0 11 the Bill. CANAL RESERVOIR—Dearne and Dove—Bill read a second time, and committed. ComPANY—Blining (Ireland)—Petition of the Association for working Mines, &c., against, to. lie on the table. POOR—Hull—Petition from Kingston-upon-Hull, against, lie on the table. COAL DuTiEs—Petitions against the Duties on Coals, from Bungay,' Aylesford, and Stamford—to lie on the table. PUBLlCANS—Petitions of Licensed Innkeepers and Victuallers of the Wards of Cripplegate Within and Without, Coleman: street, Sutton-in-AMA:lad e :Reading, Great Yarmouth, sri." Skipton, for the repeal of the increased Duties on lA' cences ; to lie on .the table. . . . PENITENTIARY (Milbank)—Mr. 13ransby Cooper, Mr. B. Gordon, Mr. Tremaynei Sir John Virtottesley, and Sir M• Ridley, added to the Committee. FISHERIES (Scotland)—Petition of Merchants, &c. of Ar broath, for a general regulation of the Laws applicable to the Salmon Fishery ; to lie on the table, and to be printed. Wocm—Petitions of Merchants, &c. of Bradford,' Baildnu , Horton, Bingley, Bowling and Wibsey, Thornton, Clayton , Shipley, Wilsden, Birkenshaw, and Allerton, against alte ration of the Laws to prevent the exportation of British Wool; to lie on the table. WINDOW TAX—Petition of Inhabitants of St. Anne, Wee minster, and:St. Mary, Lambeth, for repeal thereof; to lie on the table, and to be printed. NOTICES OF MOTIONS FOR THIS DAY. I. Mr. Curwen—Copy of Memorial concerning the absence of the Attorney-General from the Isle of Mann; also, CopY of Patent of his appointment. 2. Mr. Wallace—Select Committee on Foreign Trade. ORDERS OF THE DAY FOR THIS DAY.. 1. Supply—Committee. 2. Marine Mutiny Bill—Committee. 3. Clergy Residence (Ireland) Bill--Second Reading. 4. Ways and Means—Committee. 5. County Courts Bill—Second Reading. 0. Mutiny Bill—Committee. 7. Revenue Inquiry Bill—Third Reading. 8. Church Rates (Ireland) Bill—Report. 9. Four per Cents. Bill—Committee. 10. Postage Rates Bill—Committee. 11. South American Postage Bill—Committee. NOTICES GIVEN YESTERDAY. Thursday, March 4. Sir Robert Heron—Bill to prevent the necessity of renew , ' of officif.l appointments on the demise of the Crown. (Dg' ferred from March 4.) Friday, March 5. Mr. Attorney-General —Bill respecting Insolvent Debtors• Tuesday, March 9. • Lord Viscount Althorpe—Correspondence between Richa-rd Newton Bennet, Esq. and Mr. Gregory, in the year 1023 , respecting the suppression of an Amnesty to the Ribbo? Lodges in Ireland ; also, a Memorial from,Messrs. Lesli e and Gore to the Lord Li eutenant of Ireland, on the case °f Thomas Hughes ; also, any Correspondence between th e , Irish Government and ie Magi s t ra t es o f th e C oun ties 0' Mayo and Galway, respecting an Amnesty to the Ribbon" men in 1820. Tuesday, March 23. Mr. Wilmot Horton—Bill for the regulation of thie.-11!3, foundland Fisheries. Tuesday, April 6. Mr. George Lamb—Bill for allowing persons prosecuted f° E Felony to defend by Counsel. (Deferred from March PRIVATE BILL—SEcoND READING for This DA I Camerton Inclosure. ASH WEDXESDAY.—HoIiday at the Bank, Exchequer, Eas t ' India and South Sea Houses. PRICE OF FOREIGN STOCKS IN LONDON, Mutat $, French Russian AT ONE O'CLOCK. Five per Cents. 102. Scrip, 15i pm. Six per Cents. 00. Five per Cents. (Metallic) 00. Ditto New 94. Five per Cent. Bonds, 87i. Scrip, 12i prem. I Five per Cent. Bonds, 1820, 00. Ditto 1821, 24k. Ditto 1823, 19. Prussian Five per Cent. Bonds, 981. i 1 Ditto New, 96. Danish Five per Cent. Bonds, 99.. Portuguese c Bonds, 92. 1 Scrip, 7. Peruvian Scrip, 00. Chili 831. Colombian Six per Cent. Bonds, 68. Mexican . Scrip, 8i prem. Poyais I 00. 1 New, 00. ( Hullett's, 1 prem. Mexican Minest A ng lo, i prem. Greek 21 prem. Bank Shares £23 2s. 6d. Seven per Cent. 95. Six per Cent. 94-102. Five per Cent. 100-102. Three per Cent. 76k. —.....-- - Neapolitan Austrian Spanish American HIGH WATER AT LONDON BRIDGE TO .MORROW Morning, 2 minutes after 4. 1 Evening, 17 minutes after 4• THE SUN. SOLEM QUIS DICERE FALSUM AUDEAT LONDON, WEDNESDAY, MARCH 3, 1524. Charleston Papers to the 25th January,ar- ved this morning. [From the Charleston-Courier of the 17th.1 (FROM BRAZIL PAPERS.)—In the proceedings of the General Assembly we find the report of a debate, which continued several days, on the subject of the titular honour of the Marquis Of Maranham, which had been conferred by the Emperor on Lord Cochrane. Senor Monte zuma contended, that the appointment should not be confirmed, inasmuch as the Assembly bad passed no law authorising such appointment The Resolution was supported with considerable warmth by many Members ; others were or posed to any proceeding on the subject, upon the principle, that under a Monarchical Govern ment it was an inherent power of the Executive to create Nobility, independeut of any legislative