The Sun. — London, England, 1842-04-13 00:00:00

I withdrawn, he would come forward with some pro position at some future day.—(Hear, hear.) But the question now at issue was s o clearly decided, that no such proposition could be satisfactory.—(Cheers.) They all remembered when the Hon. Member for Finsbury proposed his resolution, that the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of her Majesty's Government said he would take no other course except to give a direct negative to the proposition, and he had not heard any different opinion from him.(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord said that he understood there was a willingness to maintain that resolution of the House. He (Lord John Russell) was quite willing to . maintain that, resolution. —(Hear, hear.) That resolution was pasfal by the late Parliament, and was so far binding on the present Parliament that the Speaker enforced it, and if by making it a standing order of the House it could be made more binding he had no objection to that course, but in the absence of any proposition, and the question being one as to the reception or rejection o f the petition, he could only say , that he would give his vote for its reception as he had don e on th e former occasion. —(Cheers.) He thought it better when debates were going on with respect to an income tax, and when his Hon. Friend had a petition on the subject, which hemoved should be received, and when he (Lord John Russell) held two petitions in his hand, that they should not evade the subject before them.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. LIDDELL thought the House oug ht to have had some formal notice of the intention of the Hon. Member. He perfectly agreed with the Noble Lord, that it was impossible to evade the discussion of this question ; it had now assumed a form in which the public business would be suspended, if some decided determination were not come to. The Right Hon. Baronet had taken the course which he thought he was bound to take.— (Hear, hear.) They were without notice, suddenly called on to abrogate a rule of. the Howse which had obtained for 150 years, and if any one would consult Hansard, they would see that it was come to in the first year of William the Third, after the revolution of 1688, and" that, like most other rules of the House, it was not established without sound reasons. He thought the Secretary of State for the Home Department put the question on its proper ground, when he said that the rule was a remnant of protection to the Crown, necessary in order that the public business should not be obstructed by petitions, which, if they were once admitted, would flock in from every part of the kingdom. He believed that the fact of the Noble Lord (the Member for London) being on the other side of the House had something to do with the opinion he had come to on this subject. Looking at the firmness with which the Noble Lord had, on a former occasion, maintained the privileges of the House, would he, if he had been at the head of the Government, have taken the course he had now done ? " Credat Judmus—non ego." He thought at least that they should come to no sudden determination upon the subject, and that they should not come to a decision without taking into their consi deration the future convenience of the House. On these grounds he should give his vote against the motion then before the House, as he had already voted against the Hon. Member for Finsbury. After a few words from Lord FRANCIS EGERTON, which did not reach the gallery, Mr. THOMAS DUNCOMBE rose and said it was quite clear that there was but one-or other of two ways of getting out of the present difficulty ; the one was tor the House at once to receive the petition, the other was for her Majesty's Ministers to come down with a stand ing order, and pass that order, to the effect that no peti tion against a tax should be received. That, as he had said yesterday, was the proper way, considering the views of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, of dealing with the subject. But what did the Noble Lord, the Member for Lancashire, (Lord F. Egerton) propose ? He proposed that this petition should be withdrawn, and lie would see, in the curse of a few days, whether he could not ma ke a sort of feather bed fur lil.r Majesty's Ministers to fall down upon.—(Hear.) That was the way by which the Noble Lord proposed that her Majesty's Ministers should escape from the difficulty in which they were now placed, and the defeat which must at length, probably that very night, attend their opposition to the proposal before the House. .Now, lion. Members upon his side were not prepared in the slightest degree to compromise their principles. They had placed before the House and the country the g rounds which induced them to think _ that the people had a right to address that House by petition, on the sub ject of taxation, as they must upon all other measures under the consideration of Parlia, ment.—(Hear, - hear.) He maintained that they, as the guardians of the public purse, and as the representatives of the people, had a right to entertain those petitions, and that the people were entitled to advise them as to the dis posal of their own money in the same way as any proprietor of an estate had a right to direct his steward in the appli cation of his rent.—(Hear, hear.) That was his case ; and until they were prepared to controvert that position, it was no use to come down and talk about a practice of 150. years. Such arguments might then have done remarkably well ; they might have done remarkably well in the days of Gatton and Old Sarum, but they would not do at the present day. Public opinion was against them—common sense was against them—(Loud cries of " hear. hear")—and justice was against them. e wanted, therefore, to know vt hat was the use of the House waiting two or three days, in order that they might hear the resolution of the Noble Lord, the. Member for Lancashire ? The Noble Lord had voted with his (Mr. Duncombe's) party yester day, and he trusted he . would again vote with him that night. lie felt assured, at all events, that his Honourable Friend who had been entrusted with the petition would not compromise the interests of his constituents, but that he would again take the sense of the house as to whether those petitions should be re ceived.—(Hteir, hear.) Sir 1103ERT PEEL said that he could assure the Hon. Gentleman that he was not acting tinder any ap prehension of any fall whatever, nor did he want any feather bed to fall upon.—(Hear, hear.) He had only dischargt d what he believed to be his duty to the Crown and the public. He believed it to be his duty to maintain a usage which he found had pre vailed for 150 years—(" Oh, oh," from the Opposition benches)—not because it had prevailed for so long a period, but because repeated proofs of the inconve nience of departing from it had gradually confirmed into a long-enduring usage the practice which had originally been adopted. He had felt it to be his duty to maintain the rule, because he foresaw, that the ser vice of the Crown, and the country must be most mate rially prejudiced, as related to the means of obtaining the necessary supplies for the public service, by the operation of the practice of presenting peti tions ag ainst the supplies f or th e serv i ce o f th e year, and also by debating those petitions.—(Hear.) He still held the opinion that if the House departed from the practice—if they would allow petitions to be pre sented against taxes, and if those petitions were to be debated at length, controlled only by the discretion of in dividual Members then they would be establish ing a rule, from which, in his own opinion, a great public inconvenience might follow. He therefore opposed the relaxation of the rule ; and the House hitv ing determined by a majority of 31, for its continuance; it appeared to him that that common sense to which the lion. Gentleman had referred, dictated to him that when it was proposed on the following day, that an individual petition should be presented, it was his duty, acting upon the expressed opinion of the House to oppose the motion. The rule in dispute had not, however, the force of a Standing Order, and he admitted that a rule of /hat kind could not be main tained unless there was a very strong majority in its fa, vour.—(Hear, hear.) He did nut deny that the narrow majority by which the rule was supported was a strong proof that there was not a prevailing opinion in favour of the maintenance of the existing usage. But the expressed opinion of the House in no respect altered his own opinion. Still, as he be lieved that a rule of the kind could be maintained only when supportod by a very considerable majority, he thought that a majority of one only afforded a very strong indication that there was not a preponderating majority in that House in favour of a continuance of the existing practice. He was also ready to admit that the power which an individual Member possessed of offering a petition, and debating the question, whether it should be received, coupled with the inability of other Hon. Members, to prevent such a course of proceeding, induced him to think that the time might arrive when the Hon. Gentleman might achieve his object ; especially as it Would not be in the power of those who differed from him, to come down at four o'clock each evening, for the purpose of defeating such motions as the present. He was perfectly willing to make all those admissions, and it certainly appeared to him to be desirable that they should not be left to daily conflicts upon the presentation of petitions. There would thus be a great eonsumption of the public time, and a great interruption to public business. It would not, in his opinion, be creditable t') the House that day after day they should be engaged in constant conflicts upon such a subject. He did not, therefore, hesitate to say that he should be very unwilling from public con siderations exclusively to enter into those conflicts, and without at all departing from his own opinion, he was ready to yield to what appeared to him to be the pre vailing sentiment of the House. He did not deny that if any convenient mode could be pointed out of meeting the difficulty, he should be willing to desist from his opposition upon the question. He did that in deference to what appeared to him to be the prevailing opinion ; but he did entreat the House to consider the position of the House of Commons._ (Hear, hear.) What he understood his Noble Friend to say 'vas, that a very short interval should be given that they might consider whether they_ could be e• put on a sati s f actory feotin or net. He thought the lion. Gentleman who made the motion could not re fuse to withdraw it--(Hear, hear)—and he hoped all those who voted for the presentation of the petition yes terday tinder _the idea th at nothing would be done, would to-say, vote against the measure. He hop ed that if they were to have p et i t i ons from meetings that they might be public meetings.—(Hear, hear.) lie dared say that the petitions again s t the income tax would not proceed from hole and corner meeting s, but from meetingSt publicly call e d — (Litugliter)—a n d ne had no doubt that all those who were opposed to an addition in the assessed taxes, those who feared an addition to any taxes, and those whose incomes were under 150/. a year, would take an opportunity at these public meet ings of expressing their opinion against this tax,_ (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) I.ord HO WICK said he agreed with some of the re marks that had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman. The Right Hon. Baronet said that he thought they ought to. consider the position of the House of Commons, and he entirely cOncurred with the Right Hon. Gentleman ; but when he said that they ought not to consent to the with - It-awe' of the petitions presented by the lion. Mem ber fir South Lancashire, on that point he confessed that he could not agree with the Right Hon. Gentle man. .He (Lord Howich) thought that there was nothing sufficiently clear or distin ct in the statemen of his li on . F r i end near him, but he thought that conSi dering the position which the Right Hon. Baronet held in that House, it was for him to undertake the subject himself ; if he would undertake the subject, and would give them a distinct promise that in the interval of two or three days, 'he would come down to that House and propose on the authority of the Government, a resolution on Standing Orders, which would enable them to present petitions of that description, then he for one would strongly recommend to his Hon. Friend, the Member for Hertford, that he should withdraw the petitions he had now offered for presentation ; but he thought that anything short of such a promise from the Right Hon. Baronet would not be satisfactury to the country, or that. House. He therefore begged to ask the Right Hon. Baronet whether he was prepared to take the matter into his own hands, and representing as he did her Majesty's Govern ment in that House, to propose such a resolution as might have the effect of relieving the House froth the embarrasstnent of its present position. Sir R. PEEL said there were many occasions on which long practice would justify the House in calling a person in his (Sir R. Peel's) situation—he meant as leader of the House of Commons, as it was generally termed—to propose to it a certain course of proceeding ; but he thought that there were occasions, and the pre sent seemed to him one of them, on which it would be rather hard to impose upon a certain individual the task of proposing the means of obviating difficulties, to which lie• himself was opposed. Considering the opi nions which he (Sir R. Peel) had expressed on the mat ter, he thought that if he had volunteered such a reso lution as the Noble Lord suggested, he should have but provoked opposition to it. He, therefore, was not prepared to give the Noble Lord that assur ance which he had asked ; but he was prepared to remit Ins own opinions in deference to those of the House, and co-operate with those who thought a course different from that which he had pursued to be better. He was prepared to concur with any Hon. Member who might think it a better course to appoint a Committee to consider of the matter.— (Oh, oh, from the Opposition.) He thought the matter one of considerable importance, and he had shown that he would not persist in his own opinion against that of the House. If the Honourable Gentleman pre pared that resolution of which he had given notice, he (Sir Robert Peel) would co-operate with him in proposing it in such a shape as should be generally acceptable to the House, but considering the opinion that he had expressed upon the subject, the proposing of the resolution had better be committed to other hands. Mr. CUMMING BRUCE rose (amid loud cries of " Divide, divide.") He said he had been just about to make such a proposition as had just now fallen from his Right Honourable Friend who had just sat down. (The Honourable Member continued to ad dress the House for some time, but was inaudible during the greater portion of his address, in con sequence of the noise in the body of the House arising from the impatience of Hon. Members to divide.) He was understood to say that the best course would be the appointment of a Committee who would take the matter into its consideration, and report upon it. They owed it to their own dignity to inform themselves ofi the subject.—(Loud cries of "Divide, divide," "ques tion.") The great object of Hon. Gentlemen opposite seemed to be to induce the House to transfer deliberating as to the propriety of imposing a tax for the calm consi deration of the representatives of the people to the body of the people themselves.—(Cheers, and cries of " Divide, divide.") He thought it would be better to refer the subject to the consideration of a Committee.—(Divide.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought it would be of great advantage if the Speaker would have the goodness to state the exact difference between a Resolution of the House and a Standing Order. The SPEAKER said that the present rule; pro hibiting discussion on the presentation of petitions, was a j resolution of the House, and was, therefore, binding only on the present Parliament. The House had, du: ing the present Session, confirmed that resolution, and therefore during the present Session the rule founded upon that resolution could not be questioned. In another Session, however, that resolution might be questioned. If the rule were made a Standing Order instead of being de pendant upon a resolution of the House, it would not only be binding upon the present, but upon all future Parliaments until it should be rescinded. Lord MAHON, said, as one of the Members for Hert ford, and as one who had voted in the minority the pre vious night, he was anxious to make a few observations. He thought that under the circumstances his Hon. Col league should not persist in his motion.—(llear.) His Hon. Friend, the Member for North Lancashire had announced his intention of bringing forward on Thursday next a resolution upon the vote which he had given, and the sentiments which he had expressed.—(Hear, hear.) lie would put it to his Hon. Colleague whether the position of the question was not materially changed.—(Hear, hear, hear.) If that resolution were not sufficient, he (Lord Mahon) would not shrink from the duty of renewing the vote which he had felt it his duty to give.—(Hear, hear.) He would therefore request his lion. Friend to withdraw his petition. Should, how ever, the Honourable Gentleman perSist 'in his motion, he would move as an amendment that the debate be adjourned till Friday next, when they would have an opportunity of deciding upon the res )Itt • tion to which he had referred. Lord FRANCIS EGERTON said, it might, perhaps, be convenient to all that he should read to the House the notice which he bad given : "To move resolutiotions : confirmatory of the practice of this House, as laid down from the Chair in 1839, with respect to the reception of petitions and permitting the presentation to this house of peti tions against taxes to be imposed for the year ; the said resolutions to be Standing Orders of the House." Lord PALMERSTON said that he would recommend his Hon. Friend to accede to the proposition of the Nob.e Lord (Mahon), and adjourn the debate till Friday, provided the Right Hun. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) would state to the House that he was prepared with that intlueace %Inch he possessed, from his position, to support the proposition of the Noble Lord (Lord F. Egerton.) If the House had th a t assurance from .• the Right Iron. Baronet, that he would give his assistance to carry the Standing Order for the purpose of permitting the presentation of petition?, he hoped his Hoo. Friend would con sent to the adjournment. Sir ROBERT PEEL said that the Noble Lord assumed that he (Sir Robert Peel) was acting in concert with the Noble Lord (Francis Egerton) but such was not the fact. He was not aware of the resolution the Noble Lord had to move, and therefore it was impossible for him to give any positive pledge to support his resolution.—(Hear, hear.) At the same time he would say, that from what he had heard, he was prepared to agree generally in it. He would reserve himself upon the point of the Standing Order. If the House thought it advisable to present petitions on the subject of a tax, it was desirable that the intentions of the House should be known with respect to the debates upon them. As he had not seen the resolution, he could not give any positive pledge to support it ; but upon the general objects of the resolution he would promise the Noble Lord that he would give it his cordial support.—( Hear. ) Air. WAKLEY regretted the proposition of the Noble Lord opposite, and he regretted still more that it received any concurrence on his side of the House. Although they were not conquerors on last night, the nature of the contest showed who would be the victors on a future occasion. —(Criss of "Divide, divide.") He had long thought that the practice of petitioning was useless whip the practice of debating petitions was entirely prohibited. The great questions of the abolition of the Slave Trade, Catholic Emancipation, and the Reform Bill, were all carried by debating petitions. But now pe titions were simply presented to this House and disregarded. He thought it had .teen shown that they could gain their ob ject without any compromise. It was clear from the consti tution of the House, and the regulations that now prevailed, that they could succeed in presenting the petitions of the people against taxes under consi aeration without any compromise or stipulation: Why should they make that which was now objectionable still more odious, in order to obtain a privilege nhich they could secure without it ? Common sense told him that no such proposition should be acceded to. See what they had gained by the present discussion. They had debated the petitions, and by the debate they we. e likely to get rid of one of the most unconstitutional practices that ever obtained in Parliament. Ought they, then, to be parties to gagging themselves? Ought they not rather to try and obtain more freedom of speech when they came before the House in be half of their constituents? Nothing could be more reason able than the petition which had been forwarded to the Hon. Member for Hertford. Nothing could be more objec tionable than that the people should not have an oppor tunity -of expressing their opinions. ( Hear, hear.) They had now an opportunity of discussing petitions, but the proposal was that that opportunity should be now cut off. Is was better to enter into no compromise at all, but to take the division on the question whether the petition be received or not, leaving her Majesty's Government to bring forward any measure they might think proper. Sir GEORGE GREY said, as he understood the Noble Lord opposite, nothing approaching to a compromise had been proposed. A resolution already existed, binding on this Par 1i went, preventing them from receiving petitions; and the Noble Lord proposed to move a resolution merely repeating that. He confessed he did not we the use of such a resolution, bu', assuming that they adopted it, they gave up no right they at present possessed. The concession, in which the Right Hun. Gentleman stated he was prepared to concur, would open the door of the House to the people against taxes, with out in the slightest degree giving up any right that Members at Iresentp?s_sessed. Sir. WALLACE rose amid loud cries of " divide." . He thought if they did not go to a decision on that question, a great occasion would be lost to the people. Besides this nothing would induce him to forget his duty, whirli was to obtain the right of debating petitions. In the next session of Parliament he would take care that the rule should be again tested, that the constituents might know who the men were who were willing to let their petitions be debated. Mr. CURTIS thought the House and the country were much indebted to the lion. Member for Finsbury fur the way in which he had taken up the question. He thought the Hon. Member for Finsbury ought to be joined with the Noble Lord in bringing forward the resolution.—( Cheers.) It would not be fair to the Hon. Member for Finsbury, if, after all his ex ertions, the Noble Lord should alone hare the credit of bring ing forward the resolution.—( Cheers. ) Mr. O'CONNELL wished to know if there was any ques tion of adjournment before the House. The SPEAKER said there was not. Mr. O'CONNELL could nut see how they could lose any thing by adjourning the debate until after the day when the Noble Lord would bi ing forward his resolutions. There would be no compromise in consenting to such a proposition. They were all still of the same opinion that they had been, and by consenting to the adjournment they might perhaps get rid of all difficulty. He would therefore move that the debate be adjourned to Friday next. Mr. COWPER would willingly have pressed his motion to a division at once, but as he did riot see any great inconve nience from the adjournment, he v ould consent to it, although he must say that he thought the simplest way of settlii:g the question would be to• receive the petition, inasmuch as it ap peared tha`, the objection to receiving it rested solely on a point of practice; and in his (Mr. Cowper's) opinion, the simplest way of reversing a practice was at once to introduce a con trary practice. He could nut sit down without complimenting the Hight Hon. Baronet on the manner in which he had given way to the feeling of the House. He would not object to the debat e b e i ng adjourned to Friday.' The debate was then adjourned to FridaßlLLy. tta ARK . The Vie'.oria P vicr ark Bil o P l was read'a second time. NOTICES OF MOTION. Mr. WALLACE gave notice that, in the event of. the in come tax being earrkd, h should move, on putting the main question, that the words Great Britain be omitted, and the word England only be substituted.—( A laugh. ) Mr. O'CONNELL gave notice of his intention to move for a committee to inquire into the spiritual destitution of the Catholic soldiers in India. AFFGHANISTAN- Mr. ESTCOURT wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman the late President of the Board of Control, whether cer tain papers, which had been laid on the table of the House in the years 1839 and 1840, relative to Indian affairs, contained anyjustification of the Government of which the Right Hon. Gentleman was a member, for the expedition to Affghanista-. Sir JOHN C. 11011 HOUSE said that the Hon. Gentle man who put the question to him would of course permit him (Sir J. C. Hobhouse) to remind him of what had occurred with reference to the circumstance. Her Majesty, in the speech which she had addressed to both Houses of Parliament, on the opening of the session of 1839, had informed them of this expedition having been undertaken. In the course of the session of that year the Right Hon. Baronet opposite expressed a hope that every information would be given respecting that proceeding. Subsequently, in both Houses of Parliament, the production lof papers on the subject was repeatedly asked for. Those 1 apers were produced. No less than seven sets of papers were produced, of which four referred to correspond ence which had been engaged in between the Governor-Ge neral of India and his councillors. The late Government considered that those papers would give to the Houses of Par liament au opportunity of forming a fair judgment upon the matter.—( Hear, hear.) What that judgment was, if it was true that si ence gave consent, they had a right to form a pretty correct idea of ; for the Right Hon. Gentle man, the present Secretary of State for the flame Department, having fixed a motion for the 2d of April, 1839, with respect to Indian affairs generally, no more was heard II the motion after the product on of the papers. Besides, those papers, he could inform the Hon. Gentlemen that the Governor-General of India published a proclamation in which the matter was ex plained. He could only say, in conclusion, that those volumi• nous papers had been prepared with the greatest care. Mr. LABOUCIIERE wished to put a question to the Right Hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury, with respect to the amended copy of the tariff. He wished to know whether the Right Hon. Baronet would have any objection to insert the amount of existing duty opposite to each article, and also the amount of revenue actually received last year ? Sir ROBERT PEEL said he would take the suggestion into his consideration. With respect to a great number of articles it would be easy to adopt the suggestion. The only difficulty was that the specification of many of the articles had been altered. _ _ Mr. LABOUCHERE had understood that it was done in the first tariff. After a few words from Mr. GLADSTONE, Lord Joi.; Bus gam., and Sir R. PEEL, the papers were laid on the table. CHURCH PROPERTY. Mr. LAMBTON begged to know f.om the Right Hon. Baronet, in pursuance of the motion of which he had given notice " whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Govern ment to propose any legidation this Session on the subject of the enfranchisement of Church leasehold property." He thought the subject was too iniportant to be entrusted into any other hands but those of the Government. Sir R. PEEL said he could not hold out any expectations that her Majesty's Government would propose any legislation on the subject. THE TARIFF. Lord EBINGTON said he wished to ask a question of the Right Hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Trade. He observed that iu the proposed new tariff, the duty on cider had been mach reduced, whilst that on hops remained as it was. He wished to know if the Right Hon. Gentleman would allow the duty on hops to be re considered. Mr. GLADSTONE said that the rates of duties on these articles had been adjusted with due consideration ; at the same time that he said that, he should add that they were anxious to give an opportunity to all pet sons to be heard; the subject was still open, and still subject to consideration. Mr. R. WASON rose to call the attention of the House to the practice adopted by Counsel before its Committees, with the view . of . providing a remedy, having for its object the ad vantage of the suitors, and upholding the dignity of the judi cial tribunals of this House. The Hon. Member spoke in so low a tone of voice, and amidst considerable noise in the House; that we could scarcely hear a word of the Honourable Gentleman's speech.. He was understood to say, that the motion was for the purpose of applying a remedy to the evil which existed of employing three Counsel before Committees, by which great expense was thrown unnecessarily on the suitors. In alter ing this practice, he did not wish at all to affect the interest of the Counsel, or to reduce their fees, for he hoped that his motion would have the eff et of relieving the suitor without at all affecting the Counsel It had been said that the public had a remedy in their own hands, but he (Mr. Wasen) could not agree with such a supposition. T he greatest injustice and inconvenience was likely to arise from the very expensive nature of proceedings as now conducted to fore Committees. In the year 1832, he remembered that the Noble Lord, then Member for Dorchester, and now Mem ber for Dorsetshire (Lord Ashley), having a petition presented against his return, rose, and said in his place with characteristic manliness, that he had no doubt as to the validity et his return, but that he was not prepared to undergo the enormous expense of defending his seat before an Election Committee. The constituents of the Noble Lord came to his assistance on that occasion, and he was declared to have been duly returned. That was, however, an instar,ce of the great evils of the present system ; and it was manifestly desirable that that system should be remedied. It was a notorious fact, that the petition was presented against that Hon. Gentleman, merely for the purpose of putting him to extraordinary expense. The- consequence was, that many gentlemtn, thi,ugh differing from him in politics, subscribed many th usands for the purpose of defending his seat. Was it not notorious, that they could neither attack nor defend a seat, without an expense of many thousand pounds ? Cases that would be decided in the Courts of Law for a few hundreds, before that House cost as many thou,ands. In the longest case that ever occupied them, the Commi.te were obliged to adjourn on one Saturday, because they could not get Counsel to attend. The expense of that adjournment was enormous to the parties. Ile remembered a story that was told him of Mr. Harrison by a Member of this House; the Ilan. Member being in the Court of Exchequer, found Mr. Harrison warming himself at the fire, when he said to him, .‘ Why, Mr. Harrison, there are at least a score of Members calling out for you in the House of Commons."—" I should wonder if there were nut," said Mr. Harrison ; " for I am engaged in twelve election petitions, and as I cannot attend all of them, I think I am diTensing perfect justice by attending to none."--( Hear, hear, and Isughter. ) Ile thought it was not right t s limit the number of Counsel who should appear before those Committees. They ought to leave it to the judgment of the suitors how many Counsel they would employ. The reso lution on their books vies evaded every day—it was mere waste paper, ant it ought to be rescinded, and if he eou'd get the House to adopt the resolutions that he was about to propose, and which he thought would meet, and barely meet, the exigencies of the case, he would himself propose that the present resolution be rescinded. The resolutions which he was ab.iut to propose to the House were—first, that parties attending before a Committee of the House, and hay.. mg liberty to be heard by Counsel, shall, at the first sitting, deliver to the Chairman the names of the Counsel retained by them ; and, secondly, that on no account sl:ould any Coun sel appear before two Committees on the same day, unless one of them should have closed its proceedings. What objection should there be to those resolutions? the only interests that could possibly be affected by it would be the interests of some few Counsel, but he even doubted if ulti mately it would not be for the benefit of Counsel themselves. He would not have the least objection to postpone the o.)era tion of these resolutions until the close of the present Session ; but every one must see the necessity for an alteration. He called upon them to take care that they did not allow parties out of that House to shake their purses in the faces of Hon. Members, inducing them to submit to compromise to avoid expense; and, on the other hand, not to let Hon. Members, who unjustly retained their seats, to shake their purses in the faces of honest and bona fide petitioners, and defy them to proceed on the same ground. The Hon. Member concluded ' 1 by moving the resolutions. Mr. W ALLACE seconded the motion. The SPEAKER then put the question. Sir JAMES GRAHAM wished to know whether it was competent for the Hon. and Learned Member to propose his resolutions till he had rescinded the Standing Order. The SPEAKER said he thought that the Standing Order ought to be rescinded first. Mr. WASON said he did not interfere with the Standing Order. He only sought to add the two resolutions to the Standing Order. The SPEAKER said he understood the Hon. Member to confine Counsel to one Committee. Mr. WASON said he did not care if the number of Counsel were unlimitted. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that he understood the inten tion of the Hon. and Learned Member to be to restrict the number of Counsel, He had not himself much experience on the subject of Election Committees, but he had frequently attended them, and his experience would lead him to say, notwithstanding that some inconvenience did arise from emi nent Counsel being employed in more than one case, that the business was conducted with great ability, and if the Hon. Gentleman's resolutions were carried, it might deprive parties in many cases from engaging eminent Counsel. The substitu tion the Hon. Gentleman proposed was, to confine Counsel to some particular province in his profession. He ( Sir James Graham) felt bound, for the sake of others, to oppose the pro. position. Nothing, in his opinion, would be more unjust than to restrict parties in the selection of the Counsel they wished to employ, especially when the parties themselves were cognizant of thjs circumstances in which the lawyer was placed. Up n the whole, he must say that he d d not see any incon venience from the practice now prevailing of employing men of eminent talents and great experience, and the business, he thought, was satisfactorily conducted. He was not aware that suitors had any reason of complaint. The Honourable Gentle man was likely to be engaged in an election Committee shortly, and he would then be able to judge for himself of the utility or otherwise of the present practice. He would certainly oppose the resolutions of the Right Hon. Gentleman. Mr. WYNN said that the existing rule was never intended to prevent the employment of any number of Counsel, but in order to save the time of the House, it pre • vented more than two bei ng h ear d b e f ore t h e Committee. H. recollected that an Election Committee, of which a friend of his was a member—he meant the Middlesex Election Com mittee—sat a much greater number sof hours than the House of Lords had for seven years during the celebrated trial of Warren Hastings. If the propositions of the Hon. Member were carried into effect, they would have to retain one gentle man for then hole Session, because who could tell when any parti cular election petition would be heard? Every one was anxious to engage the best practitioners they could, and they would have to oe employed for the whole Session, during the whole of which time they were to receive no other retai ner . Th e H on . Mem ber here lowered his voice so much, that he was quite inaudible in the gallery; he was understood to say in conclusion, that he did not see how the proposal of the Hon. Member could prac tically be carried out. _ 31r 4 . WALLACE said, he was sure that every one must have felt much indebted to the Hon. Member who had just sat down, and who had devoted so much of his valuable time to the practices ofElection Committees, for the expression of his opinions on this question, and he (Mr. Wallace) was quite certain that the opinions he had expressed would sink into the minds of those who were opposed to them.—( Hear. ) The expo n,e of Election Committees was a grievous evil—it was a grievou. and gro ring evil—and he hoped to see some remedy. One gnat objection to the present system was that Counsel ran fri m place to place, and frJm Committee to Corn mittee.—(Hear, hear.) He did nut know whether this was a Joe Miller story or not, but it was notoriously nue. The late eminent Counsel, Mr. Harrison, had said, or if he had not actually said it he might have said it, that he was engaged on so is any cases, that it would be no more th an j us ti ce to the - parties to keep his fees in his pocket without speaking a word. If the Counsel could not do their duty, was it just tor them to take their fees? He (Mr. Wallace) could not understand how gentlemen, knowing that they could not be in more places than one at one time—he could not understand how their friends in that House could de- ' fend them in taking money without giving value for it.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) Lord Denman had set an example to the House. He would not allow himself to be imposed upon, and he at once adjourned the Court, considering he had been in sulted. He (Mr. Wallace) believed that the first Counsel at the bar—the first official Member of that House, was one upon whom that visitation was made. He believed Sir Wm. Follett was one upon whom Lord Denman shut his Court. He hoped to see this principle followed in the p resent case. But he ' rvefrey family of any note in Engla nd —that it was a l most ssion ryas afraid there was too much prof,sional interest comprised that ise ll d o m us e e m — b a e s rs a o hn f ct,hse po t e impos sible to find a favourable consideration in that House for the purpose of mitigating this great evil. There was also another THE SUN, LOON DON, WEDNESDAY MORNING, APRIL 13, 1842. t case. Hitherto they had spoken only of Election Committees, but he wished also to speak of parties to Private Bills ; before Committees on these Bills, Counsel acted in the same manner. Two or three would come and go on with the business for some time; then they would graduallyleave, and one of the junior Counsel would get up and speak —not of the I usinese that ought to occupy the Committee, but, as Members of that House sometimes did, he speaks against time—(Hear, hear)— thereby wasting the time of Hon. Members who had no right to be called on to do such additional duty. He contended that if Members were bound to declare that they would be present " from first to last," an exceedingly proper declaration, if they were obliged to attend in the Committee-room at a certain time and stay there without quitting the room till the Speaker took the Chair, was it fair that Gentlemen who were confoundedly well paid—( Hear, hear, and laughter)—for wasting their time, should not attend ? There really was a monstrous waste of time on Private Bills, and it would be an immense benefit to the parties cor.cerned in them, if both Counsel and Members were bound to stay in the room till they had settled the lousi ness that had called them together. He should wish if he could to prevent Counsel from speaking at all, and pursue a plan similar to that of quarter sessions, where evidence was taken and the opinion of the Counsel asked as to points of law if necessary. He believed that all Counsel before Committees of that House, whether for Private Bills or elections, did nothing but misrep esent the case on each side to the Lest of their ability.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that it was their duty, as he was sure it was their practice, and he thought they would not be feed unless they adopted h.— ( Hear, he ) In a conflict between a wealthy body such as the Corporation of London and a poorer interest, it was impos sible to say what confusion might not be introduced by the pewee of the purse, by employing three or four Counsel ; the smaller party would be driven to the wail, or forced to make an unfavourable compromise. That was done every day ; and it was a practice of which constant complaints were made. He was aware, however, that it was difficult to come to a satisfac tory adjustment upon the question. He confessed that he did not clearly see his way in the matter, but he was equally cer tain that the Right Hon. Gentleman who had brought the sub ject under the consideration of the House, deserved their best acknowledgments. There was now a rule in force to the effect that two Counsel only should be heard before a Committee. Now, it appeared to him that it would be desirable, whether this rule were continued or not, that two Counsel should be compelled to remain in each Committee, and not be allowed to run from place to place during the proceedings ' in the same way as Lord Denman had prev en t e d Counsel from running from Court to Court in Westminster Hall. lie believed that the course his Lordship had taken upon that subject had given general satisfaction. He hoped the House would take the entire subject of the proceedings before Committees into its serious consideration ; and if any improvement were suggested upon the plan proposed by his Hon. and Learned Friend, he was sure that he would not refuse to it his support. Mr. STUART WORTLEY wished to declare his firm conviction that -there. was one method of diminishing expense before Committee far more effectual than any which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had recommended. The remedy which he would suggest would be to establish a more satisfactory and competent tribunal.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He had the greatest possible respect for the authority and the opinions of the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government, and he should be disposed to look upon any measure of which he was the author with the utmost par tiality ; but he should own that he saw reason to become more and more convinced every day that in the experiment he had made he had failed in obtaining the object which he had in view.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet, with all his ability, could not perform impossibilities; and, for his part, he was convinced that it would be iMpossible, by any con trivance or design, to establish a sufficiently competent tribu. nal for the trial of election petitions, so long as they confined themselves entirely to the materials to be found in that House. —( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") The Hon. Gentleman op posite had talked of the enormous expense of the proceedings before those Committees, arising in an especial manner from the protracted nature of the proceedings. 'Now he would un dertake to say that if a scheme could be devised which %out , ' p'ace the constioition of Election Committees upon a satis factory footing, and which would render them competent ju dicial tribunals, they would diminish expense, not mer e ly by shortening the proceedings, but by preventing the agi tation of the questions that came before them.—( Hear. hear.) Cases which would never have been brought before a really legal and cempetent tribunal were brought before Election Committees, because parties thought it wo. th their while to take their chance; and those Committees, without any ade quate legal knowledge, we e called upon to act on the most contradictory decisions He could not allow this discussion to close without pro'esting against any attempt being made to patch up the pi esent system, and he hoped the House would remedy the grievances complained.of by remodelling the tribunal. Mr. O'CONNELL felt called upon to take a part in this discussion, as he had been himself alluded to in the course of it. He begged that it should be musticlistinctly understood that he made no complaint of the able and Hon. Gentlemen whom he had engages! as his Counsel. He had engaged them with the full knowledge that he could not have the whole of their time, and that he must take his chance as to how much time they could afford to give him.' There had beer. a clear understanding- between hint and them, and they had faithfully and honourably performed their part. This was an evil that was great in proportion to the eminence of Counsel. - As a member of the bar he repudiated the idea that Mr. Harrison .could have made use of the excuse attributed to him. His best excuse for not attending to the business for which he had been retained would have been that. he was actually at the time em; loyed elsewhere; but if he were not actually so employed, then he was certainly without excuse for his conduct. The Hon. G.entleman had talked of the expense being lessened by having junior Counsel to examir.e the witnesses. Now, it was well known that the most im portant part of a case was the examination of witnesses. That showed that however competent Hon. Gentlemen might be to suggest amendments in the law, these, were matters svhich were exclusively in the province of those who were in close attendance in the Courts.—(Hear, hear ) He was very much afraid that the experiment of the Right Hon. Baronet had totally failed. The question now asked was not what were the politics of the Committee, but what were the politics of the Chairman. He hoped the Hon. Gentleman opposite would not content himself welt giving these excellent ideas, but would come forward-with a plan for a different tri bunal. The delegated authority was called the House ; but it was not the House ; the public eye was not upon it. He thought the plan was first to have a register of the voter, so that it should be clearly ascertained who had a right to vote at a certain time, and let him vole at the en suing elqytion, whatever became of him in the mean time. Then, if there should be a petition after the election. let it come before a tribunal, which from its knowledge of the law of evidence, would be competent to pronounce a decision —a tribunal, the members of which would be taken from that profession from which were selected the Judges of the land, and let them be paid according to the value of their services. This would do away with all the gambl ng and spe culation which at present characterised such proceedings. He hoped that the Han. Gentleman opposite would turn his thoughts to the subject, and he (Mr. O'Connell) would be happy to render him his assistance to remedy this enormous, and, as his Hon. Friend had called it, this confounded mis chief.--( Laughter. ) Mr. W. 0. STANLEY said he thought much of the ex pense incurred in these Committees arose from the deficient system of registration, and a want of simplification hi the right of franchise ; and he was of opinion that if the right of fran chise and the Registration Courts were to be amended, the pro aceedings would be much simplified. Mr. AGLIONBY said he agreed with what had fallen from the Hon. Member who had just sat down, hut he would go even further back than the Hon. Member did, and simplity the mode of election. The question which had been proposed by the Hon. Member for Ipswich was one of great difficulty, and lie did not think they would find many Members in that House competent to do justice to its importance. lie did not gain anyth ing by dividing ; he thlaetmhbeesr would should chang e hi s mot i on , an d move f or shouldthink the suggest Hon. a Committee. They were bound, as far as they could by law, to lessen the great ' expenses incurred in these peti. tions, but he did not think that the plan of the Honourable Member for Ipswich would have that effect. As long as ta lent was appreciated, so long would they have the race run by men of the highest attainments, and he believed it would he impossible for that House to prevent such a proceeding. If Counsel were only permitted to attend one Committee, what would be the consequence? Why, eminent Counsel would calculate on the length to which Committees might ex tend, and would exact an enormous lee for their at teudance on those Commit le, s.— ( Hear.) He thought if a Committee were appointed to investigate the subject before which Counsel and agents may be examined, that an intermediate course might be adopted which would lessen the expense of the parties. He thought the advantages !o the members of the bar were but as a feather in the scale, arid that the interests of the public should alone be regarded. He hoped the lion. Member would change his motion, and would ask for a Committee to investi gate the subject. Captain FITZROY said, although he agreed with what had fallen from the Hoe. Member for the West Riding of York shire (Mr. S. Wortley), with respect to the hopeless ness of Election Committees being satisfactory to the House or to the public, as long as they were compost d of the materials of which they at present were ; yet he thought that the opinion of the House had been given so decidedly in favour of the present mode of constructing those tribunals, that any Hon. Member, who would move in the present Par liament to have the mode set aside, would have very little chance of success. He considered a better mode of construct ing those tribunals would be, by putting in the chair of each Committee a man of distinguished ability at the bar. Two advantages would be particularly desirable from the adoption of such a course. In the first place, Gentlemen who were placed on Committees were not generally well aware of the value ofevidences ,Much evidence, attended with no practical result was given before Committees, which would not be the case if distinguished lawyers presided. In the second place ob jections were often mooted by Counsel merely for the purpose of delay, and it was well known that Counsel frequently laughed at the frivolity of objections which they induced the Committee to entertain. If the Chairmen were eminent law yers, no such objections would be entertained. Lord G. SOMERSET said that a fair trial had not been given to the experiment of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tarneorth. He could not concur in the opinion that lawyers ought to be selected as the Chairmen of Election Committees. Men of ability and eminence were not always accessible, particularly when there was a great number of Com mittees, as at present, anti should a junior Counsel be selected to preside, he feared the result would be that some of the older gentlemen who practised before Committees would take that opportunity of showing up their junior brethren, and thus to advantage would be derivable from the plan suggested. The result of the Hon. Gentleman's proposition would be most mischievous to the suitors, and he did not think that he would gain more talent in the formation of the Committees. A great improvement would require the whole machinery to be simplified. The expense of Counsel was not the only heavy eharge on suitors, and if the Hon. Mr mbe: meant to interfere in the manner in which parties sho !d their salts, he must go far beyond lies present res. '111143 i, to which he must give his dissent, as he believed it vet mid not be of advantage to the suit ors. Mr. WASON replied. He believed his resolution was simple and adequate to the end hs pea,iosed. He thought it was hardly fair fur the Right Hon. Bad (met to ask him if he would test his resolution by the result of his own Elect:on Committee. It was generally admitted that the plan of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Rob ert P eel) had f a il e d, a nd the qu es t ion b ot h in the House and out of the House was now, What sort of a Chairman have you got ? If he was against you, it was con sidered that it was all up ; if with you, that it was all right. There being three of the Committte on one side, and three o the other, it was well known that the casting vote of the Chairman would decide all difficult ques tions, and the result of the Committee would be ju.t according to his politics. If the Noble Lord (Lord U. Somerset).would take the subject i n t o hi s cons i derat i on , he should b e per f ect l y sat sfied with his experience and ability.—(Lord G. Somerset appeared to decline the proposal.)—The Noble Lord Shook his head, and did not accede ; he should, therefore, withdraw his motior, and he should be guided by the views he might hear expressed on both sides of the House in deciding whether he should bring it again under their consideration or not. He ' felt persuaded that unless they put in the Chair a gentleman of legal knowledge, they would never be enabled to have the pro.. ceedings of Uommittees satisfactorily conducted. Mr. CHILDERS said, in his opinion the great evil was that the Counsel were much too clever for the Judges.— Laughter. ) The oppoAng Counsel made different points, and in some way or other the members of the Committee al most invariably leaned to that point which favoured their own party.—( Hear, bear.) Sir 11. PEEL sa'el that he certainly had been prepared, I from the notice a the Hon. Member for Ipswich, for a discus sion npon the merits of Election Committees. He had felt surprised at some of the statements of Hon. Members. The Hon. Gentleman who had preceded him had seemed to ques tion the impartiality of the decisions which had been come to in certain instances ; but there did Lot appear to be anything 'in the facts to justify that suspicion. Ile hoped the House would not be governed by what the losing party said of the procceclin3s of those Committees. Whatever tribunals they appointed, he woul I venture to say the losers would com plain. They would always be apt to impute some improper motive to those who hart decided against them. With respect to the appointment of a Chairman, he begged leave to say that that was no part originally of his measure. It was a proposal of the Noble Lord the Member for London, to which he (Sir R. Peel) had acceded, merely from a wish that there should be as much unanimity as possible upon such a subject. He confessed, however, that he had not himself been satisfied that the arrangement would he a good one. He hoped, however, the House would nut lightly decide that Hon. Members woo tried those petitions were not actuated by perfectly honourable mo tives. Ile was perfectly confident, from what had been stated by the lion. Gentleman who had just sat down, that the Com mittee of which be had been a member had decided impartially and to the best of their judgment. He attached the more im portance to the admlssions of the Hon. Gentleman from his respect for his private cheracter. Mr. CHILDERS del not mean to impeach the impartiality of Members serving on Committees. He had only said that they were not qualified to decide the questions that came before them, and to sift the conflicting statements of Counsel. Sir R. PEEL said, that he was surprised to hear that Coun sel were allowed to take any unwarrantable liberty, and that Cdairmen had not the firmness to interfere in such cases. Mr. EWA RT said, he did not understand the Hon Mem ber to attribute any partiality to the Committee, but to their inability to understand legal ques ions. For his own part, he did not think that with regard to private Bills and those Committees, they were as perfect as they should be, and that with respect to the latter, they should have three Judges who would control the Judges.—The motion was then withdrawn. DRAINAGE AND FISHERIES (IRELAND) BILLS. On the saotion of Lord Ei,lOT, the following Members were appointed to form Select Committees on these Bills : On the Drrinage Bill—Lord Eliot, Mr. Pigot, the Solicitor- General for Ireland, Mr. Young, Mr. Morgan John O'Cene nell, Lord Claud Hamilton, Mr. More O'Ferrall, Colonel Darner, Mr. William O'Brien, Mr. Christmas, Mr. French, Sir Arthur Brooke, Mr. Caleb Powell, Viscount Newry, and Viscount Clements. On the FisherieS Bill—Lord Eliot. Mr. Shiel, the Solicitor General fur Ireland, Mr. O'Connell, Sir Edmund Hayes, Sir William Somerville, Mr. Young, Sir Robert Ferguson, Captain Jones, Mr. Villiers Stuart, Viscount Courtenay, Mr. Alexander Murray, Viscount Adare, Mr. Pigot. _ FOREST OF DEAN. The Earl of LINCOLN moved for leave to bring in a Bill to provide for the relief of the Poor in the Forest of Dean, and other extra parochial places in and near the Hundred of St. I3riavel's, in the county of Gloucester.—Agreed to. On the motion of the Earl of LINCOLN, leave was given to bring i, a Bill to divide the Forest of Dean, in the county of Gloucester, into Ecclesiastical districts. ST. BRIAVEL'S SMALL DEBTS BILL. The Earl of LINCOLN moved for leave to bring in a Bill to abolish the Court of St. Briavel's, and for the more easy and speedy recovery of small debts within the Hundred of St. Briavers, in the county of Gloucester.—Agreed to INCOME TAX.—PETITIONS TO HER MAJESTY. Mr. BROTHERTON moved that there be presented to her Majesty an Address for a return of the number of petitions, memorials, or addresses presented to her Majesty from public meetings, town councils, conferences, or other bodies, for the repeal of the Corn-laws, from the Ist day of January, 1841, to the present time ; specifying the places from which they were sent, the number of signatures, and the prayer of each petition.—Agreed to. Sir J. GRAHAM said he was willing to give the Hon. Gen tleman all the information on the subject which his office would enable him to furnish. The. e wa-, no record kept, however, of the number of signatures attached to each memorial; but he would make inquiries on the subject, with a view to give the Hon. Gentleman every information in his power. INCOME TAX—ADJOURNED DEBATE. On the Order of the Day being read for resuming the ad journed debate on Lord John Russell's resolutions, Mr. BilOT H ERTON rose and said, that he had moved the 'adjournment before Easter in order to give Hon. Members an opportunity of consulting their constituents on the subject of the income tax. The Noble Lord the Member for South Lan cashire had thought proper to denounce those who had been guilty of the presumption of asking for more time to consider that important subject, and as he (Mr. Brotherton was one of those who had been guilty of such presumption, he hoped the Noble Lord would allow him to state in a very few words his view of the subject. la the first place, he would frankly own to the Right Honourable Baronet arid to the House, that when he voted in the minority for the adjournment till after Easter, that he was fully im pressed with the opinion that the country was against the measure. lie would, however, frankly acknowledge that he did not think that there was that opoosition to the measure of the Right Hon. Baronet in Manchester ashe (Mr. Brotherton) had anticipated.—(Ministerial cheers.) lie certainly did anticipate a different feeling to that which he met with. He re collected being at a large meeting in 1816, at which there was a most unanimous feclieg against the tax, and he could not account fur the present change ; perhaps it was because th e present generation had not felt the effects of the tax, and he believed they would not be convinced until they felt the hands of the Government in their pockets. Another reason might be that they sacrificed their own and their neigh beurs' interest to party. The Noble Lord (Lord F. Egerton) had stated that he had a petition, signed by 24,000 persons. He (Mr. Brotherton) was needy to admit that a great number of the names to that petition were of great respectabilit:, but that petite:sr hail emanated from no public meeting. There had been a meeting of the Town Council, and they were una nimous in a resolution against .the tax. Another reason, per haps was, that the persons could not distinguish between a property and an income tax.— ( Hear, hear, from Sir 11. Feel. ) But' there wan, however, a divided feeling on the subject. Another reason for the want of opposition to the tax was, per , haps, one which had been expressed by a friend of his, who said that the Right Hon Baronet would allow them to compound for the three years, and if they did so, according to their proits of the last three years, they would get a good bargain, for they had gained itotling —(Laugh'er. ) Ihe Noble Lord had stated that a great numbs of clergymen had sign; d his petition. He confessed fro.n what he (Mr. Brotherton) knew of the Manchester clergymen, this cireurne stance had little weight with him. They were almost to a man for supporting the French wa-. They justified the proceedings at Peter:oo, and when the case of Queen Caroline was before the eeuntry, there was scarcely a clergyman that was , not op posed to her. They were always opposed to the Corn.laws too, and never supported any measure calculated to relieve the poor. With reeve' to himself, he had but one opinion on the subject, and that was, he believed the tax to be unnecessary, and be lieving it to be unnecessary, he should not vote for it. He conceived that if monopolising had been re moved, the tax would have been uncalled for ; therefore it was monopoly that ren dered the tax necessary. He wished to have seen th expen diture reduced, but such was not proposed. With regard to the war in India, he thought that it was unjust at the com mencement, and that it was unjust to carry it on. He did not partake of the feeling that the glory of the country consisted in her triumphs in war ; hr considered her glory should be in t' e arts or peace. He thought no one could doubt the in justice of a men of real property being taxed in the same arnaunt as the man whose only income was produced by his industry. His (Mr. Brothertnn's) plan would be to tax all real property, not as a tenant tax in the poor rate. but as a landlord's tax ; and he would tax the funds and mortgages. He would exe m pt th e f armer an d t h e tradesman and the professional man. They might say it would be unjust so leave a tradesman untaxed, but the House mutt recollect that the tradesman and manufacturer paid 1,200,000 e of taxes on the raw ma erial. In his plan he included all mils and manufactures as real property. lie did not wish to pro pose, or volunteer a budget for the Right Honourable Baronet, but he mu t say that there was a broad distinction between a property and an income tax. He considered the proposed tax would engender grear odium from its inquisitorial and vexatious process. anti he had no doubt there would be on an unani mous voice in favour of its repeal ; but if the income tax were repealed he should be disposed o support a tax on real properly. Colonel 'A GOD said that the lion. Metiaber who had just sat down had very good hurnouredly told them that the inha bitants of Manchester were not unfays.urable to this tax. He (Col. Wood) hoped he shou!d be able to show that the whole kingdom was 'of the same opinion. He would jus t lay a calculation before the House. which he had made respect • ing this tax. He found that the number of occupiers of land whose incomes were under 501. a year, and who (lid not con tribute to the tax when la,t imposed in 1815, amounted to 1,114,778. The occupiers of land from 50/. to 1501. a year, which the Right Hon. Baronet proposed to exempt, amounted to no less than 432,534, making a total of no less than 547,312 persons to be exempted from the tax. The numbtr of occu piers of land that would be called upon to contribute to the tfx was only 42 :..62 He found that in trades and professions there were 100,000 underso/, a year, and 117,306 whose in comes were from 501. to 1501., .making a total of 218,000 to be exempt from the operation of the tax. The total number of persons who contributed to the tax in 1815 was 77,682. That was in a population of 12,000,000 of persons. The pa pslation was now increased to 18,500,000, bring an increa'e ' of one-third ; was it then a fair calculation to add a third to each 7—( Hear, hear.) The number of persons, occupiers of land, of trades and professiong, who contriouted to the tax in 1815, and whose incomes were above 150/. a year, was 77,632, to this he added a third, which would make 103,578 souls who then contributed to this tax ; there then remained to be added the owners ofland and others, and he made out the whole num ber of contributors to be 200,000 souls. Was it possible that out of a population of 18,500,000, the number that contri buted to this tax did not exceed 200,100 souls? He believed that was the fact; and it would not appear strange, when they considered that there wire about .3,444,000 inhabited houses, and the presumption was that there would be about 3,500,000 families, of whom 2,500,000 were without income; and he firmly believed that this was a correct calculation, and that th- number of persons called on to contribute to this tax would not - exceed 200,000 souls ; and what a difference would that exhibit between direct and indirect taxation? That return convinced him that an income tax was by far the most honest and most beneficial tax which could be proposed for the benefit of the people ; he thought it placed the tax on the shoulders of those who could bear it—these who had property whilst it shifted it from the shoulders of die poor, who were unable to bear their share in the taxation of the country. The Noble Lord objected to this tax, bscause he said it was a war tax, and should not be resorted to in times of peace. Could it be said that we were now at peace? He thought not. It was impossible to tell what might yet be the result of the war in India. We could nut consider this great country at peace. But whether at peace or at war, if the tax were a good one, it was one which, in his opinion, ought to be imposed.—( Hear. ) Gentlemen on the other site had tatioted them with the part they had taken on the Corn-laws, accusing them of havi gin that Hou e acted in a manlier incowistent with the speeches which they had made on the hustings. He must express his astonishmeat at such taunts, because he thought thst they had acted quite con sistently; he told his constiaients that he would ne,.r vote for a tax u, on co n f pur;,osos of revenm..—( Hear, and laughter.) Gentlemen laughed, but he told them that, and he argued then, as Le did now, that the duty upon corn was not for purposes of revenue, but for the sake of protec:ion ; the fixed duty of Bs., as propss.d by the Noble Lord, he thought would aggravate the evils under which the country at present laboured, and he should therefore give a decided nega tive to the Noble Lord's proposition, and in cluing so he consi dered that he should be doing his duty to his constituents. Mr. MANGLES said that he had listened with great at tention to the remarks which had fsllen from Gentlemen on the other side, but he had listened without conviction, and perhaps he might be allowed to express his opinion on the subject.— ( Hear, hesr. ) Every one must deeply regret the disasters which had lately occurred in Affghanistan, but still they were not called on to believe them to be the greatest disasters which had ever happened to this country; they, no chubt, all felt deeply the distaste's which h a d occurred there to our brave countrymen, aid fair countrywomen, but that was no reason for the imposition of an income tax.—( Hear, hear.) He ad mitted that the d:saster which had occurred in A ffghanistanwas great and griev ous , b ut i t di d not appear to him that the Right Hon. Hon. Baronet h a d b een b orne out i3O the remarks wlyea he had made relvive to the disaster. The Right Hon. Baronet said the other night that the disasters which had occurred in Afghanistan had not been equalled in British history—(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches.) The disasters surely were not so great as were those which happened. in the time of ---- : -- ce b ill the American wars. He begged now briefly to compare the 1 ting the saddle on the wrong horse. Let him iifirodu reseal affairs of India under the administration of Lord Wellesley, with to a member of the Government he supported, the P re re a s the present position of affairs there. He found that in 1797 , Chancellor of the Excbequer. Let him present to him to ": 108 of a lb the Indian debt was 17,059,0001., in 1803, the close of LordWel- 1 fright Hon. Gentleman the distinguished negotiator lesley's administration, it had in c r e ased to 31,638,0001. 1 Treaty of Ghent, by whose negot atien, after a long contest !L is ( Hear, hear.) In 1803 a n d 1806 t h e c h arges a l one exceeded i the negotiators on behalf of America, they did secure toor.b the revenue by 157,000/. But then you must inquire at what country the right o f passage to British vesse l s thr It rate he was obliged to borrow for the Uovernrrene In 1801 he an impassable branch of the St. Lawrence.--( Hear, hear,.}) al paid 14 per cent. ;in 1802, 8 per cent.; 180 e, 8- per cent. ; was the wordicg of this treaty that had c :used the whole of 1804, 8 per cent.; and iniBos, 9 per cent. In 1805 the debt was disputes about the boundary question ; it was that Itightifrel about double the revenue. The whole debt in 1839 was 31,987/, Gentleman to whose care the settlement of this dsa i ,a 4 ; or only n few millions more than in the administration of Lord was then committed, who might, i n 1816, ' a Wellesley, whilst the revenue had increased frown 13,000,000/. the territory was abandoned to any one, have setae. to to 29,000,000/.—( Hear, hear.) But now the Indian Govere- the dispute easily, but whose carelessness or mistakes haa_ s ' e f ment had a loan open, and they were borrowing at the rate of 'tailed on his' successors and their successors the difficul a nf ml y five per cent.—( Hear, hear.) He did nut hesitate to tell the the negotiation to which he (Mr. Buller) confessed he n'",4 House that five per cent. in India was not so high as three per saw the probability of a satisfactory result. The only Prl be cent. in England ; so that the Government of India, in this of a satisfactory result arose, he felt bound to say: lom as s dreadful state of depression—so much depressed, indeed, that interference of the Noble Lord to whom the negotiation a , s an income tax must be imposed on the people of England—can now entrusted, who he trusted would conduct it in s f s , have a loan open at the rate of three per cent. There were spirit he Loped would prove successful, riot only in this rle o ` o , two banks in Calcutta who were discounting, one at eight tion, but with regard to the other difficulties that had 4. 0 , and the other at ten per cent., whilst the Indian Government arisen in their disputes with the United States. ' could borrow at three per cent. that did not look as if the Indian lion. Gentlemen opposite toad them th a t it was all theirea finances were in so depressed a state. There w a s another cir- fault that there was any bad blood between them and Frso„ .o cumstanee which he might mention, which was, that. during the They were lavish in the approbation they bestowed °p time time of Lord Wellesley's administration, the wages of the sepoys condemnation the Hon. Member for Bolton had thrown o e u a t as , and solders were often a year in arrears, and now he was happy the Syrian expedition. But the lion. alember for Bolt cd " s f to say there was not a servant of the Government who was not consistent in his condemnation ;he had always disapr o e u c _ sb n paid up regularly every month, and yet they were obliged to the policy of that expedition. But which of the lion .. a s e r o lay an income tax upon their own shoulders to relieve this Go- Gentlemen opposite had disapproved of that policy ?—(Per Other vernment.—( Hear, heat.) He was aware that the expendi- They knew also that it was the party press of the opposr l v_ a , o , ture in India must exceed the revenue, otherwise there would that had excited the people of France more than any n o , be no occasion for a loan being open. But it happened now party. It was the press of the party opposite that bad,, a d that the affairs of the Government were peculiarly favourable. most unequivocally approved of the treaty of the 1 01 ' lie had endeavoured to contrast the affairs of India under the June. -( Hear, hear, ) Again, or, the war in Afghanistan I .. e h ri , administration of Lord Wellesley, with th e p resen t ti me ; an d h a d re f erred to the predictions of the Duke of Welling a s he should now say a few words relative to the loss of life in Aff- who, like Cassandra, had foretold that the war would only ghanistan ; and this lie should observe was not more than had to danger and difficulty. He gave the Duke of Wallin in t occurred on a former occasion, when the Government did not credit for his sagacity, but those on the other side had ae. deem it necessary to interfere, He r e ferr e d to the Burmese heeded the warnings of the Cassandra even of their own, '7, war, and he apprehended that in a financial point of view, it did —( Hear, hear.) Who were those who gave a delibeiaT r lt ,. not matter whether men died by the sword or by other means- tice of a motion to inquire, into this matter, and then, fl oe —(n Oh, oh," from the Ministers.) He apprehended not in a ened by the success of that war, had abantioned the nr ... financial point of view.—( Hear, he a r.) From a report of and by that silence gave more than approval to that policy? Major Tullock's which he held in his hand, it would appear (Hear, hear.) Let any Gentleman say that he was now he , .. that during the first year of the Burme s e war ninety-six men informed, and that now the emit had happened, they bad ss died in action, and 1,215 by famine and other causes; he all along that it would happen, he should in that case co e T i r o a is thought, in fact, that the numerical loss of life during the two ment them, as he had had occasion to compliment th e i e a years of the Burmese war was greater than that which has Member for Pembroke on that retrospective foresight Wis aor occurred in Affghanistan ; yet the Government did not think enabled him to say they ou g ht n o t t o have done _ b ap it neceasary then to impose an income tax.—( Hear, hear.) In thing that had afterwards turned cut unfortunsoog his (Mr. Mangles') humble opinion, the resources of India Some Hon. Gentlemen opposite deserved to be classed ata tt o were such, that if well governed, it would be able those reasohers of who it was said that events were I t he amply to support itself.--( Hear, hear.) The saving which only masters. With respect to the charges brought alean l e g e 11 might be effected, it the interest which was at present paid oe late Government about reduction of taxation, during te' e ol the debt of India were reduced, would be sufficient to support years in which Hon. Gentlemen n ow o n the Minis t l a t e the army in India. Now, with regard to the regiments which benches were in opposition, he (Mr. Buller) never hear were about to be sent to India. Th e Nobl e Lord said that of two instances—one in the case of Prince Albert, its wa tbo there were six new regiments about to be sent to India ; of they saved the country 20,000/. a year, and , another iD t aef these, however, he must say th a t t wo reg i m e n t s were i n t h e matters of the se int) , grant to Maynooth, which 00 place of those that were in China, and a no th er was gone t o voe d against.—( Hear, hear.) These we re the si as : replace those unfortu n at e men w h o h a d cease d t o exist; so t h at , matters in which Hon. Gentlemen opposite interfereddoo in fact, there were only th ree new regimen t s w hi c h t h ey cou ld the estimates at all, except indeed that they used to come of be called on to consider as requiring additional funds. He when the Army Estimates were voted, and military matediej thought that the Right Hon. Gentl e man had over-rated the military man used to hold forth on the necessity of inceeetes. fears to be entertained from the Mahomedan Powers. tie the grants to the army. In like manner, when the Nav/ is io should have recollected that their energies were broken before timates were being voted, Tory naval officers used to doe for thereth assumed the reins of power, and that much was upon the disgraceful deficiency in the sums grant e . t to expected frcm the Hindoo population, who detested the use of the navy. Let them not take cre",,' b e e, the Mahomedans from a recollection of their former cruelties. , themselves, then, for lessening the estimates, r;0 As he did not think any danger was to b e apprehended from on the contrary, they always increased them- i i the Mahomedan empire, so neither did he think any fear could charge against the late Government was, tha t trop justly be ente r tai ne d as t o t h e efficiency of the native army. creaeed the deficiency i n th e revenue b y an un d ue real' t o, Our empire in India, he believed, to be based on a sense of our of taxation. Why, in the case of the repeal of the houn d tee trutheilness in the mi n ds of th e na ti ves , an d h e b e li eve d th a t w h en t h ere was a million and a half o f i ncome /vow/ ?e , get nothing could shake it s stability.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Ri g ht H on. B oronet vote d i n favour of its removal. ;les In 1816, an insurrection broke out in India, in a loca- was one paint, on which he observed Gentlemen opposit e 4 the lily where the wh o l e o f th e p o p u l a ti on was M a h omme d an. something more than a mere accusa ti on. Th ey sa id tha ot ee Many murders of British subjects were committee ; yet, not- 1 reduction of the Post-office revenue was a great blow t h o se withstandi ng th e i mmense f orce w hi c h was oppose d to them, ; late Ministry, y e t th e y a ll owe d t h e ma j orit i es, o b ta i ne d by e rr the British fo rces re p u l se d th e M a h ome d ans w i t h immense I then in power, to swell mom 10 and 20 to 100. The p r e. loss. An in s u rre cti on i n B eneres was aceompanied with very j sent Postmaster-Gen era l vo t e d i n f avour o f the re' similar results. U n de r the s e cir c um s t ances , h e did not think I duction of that tax. He would only make on e it necessary to rais e so mu c h m oney by suc h . h ate f u l means mark more on this subject. Even if the that for the relief of India; all the information was not yet before could be brought against the late Governnaent , soa the House, and until it was produ ce d h e cou ld not consent to they had caused the deficit by the reduction of the rev` pi, the levying of an income tax.---( Hear, hear.) after all it would be no very serious charge against thel t 'ess H Mr. VERNON ARCOURT said he s hould vote f ur th e l et t h em remem b er, if th , accusation were just, the defici t t oe+ present measure, inasmuch as it did no t rest i n t h e l east on occasioned merely by th e taking off of taxes. If thFshet . Qt the present position of India, though th e G a ll ant C apta i n h a d were such as ought 'o be kept on, why Ministers raigne only brought his stateme n t d own t o 1809 . Th e c i rcumstances them on again.—(Ministerial _ci ies of , s Oh, o h.") , . t B ess' in which they stood were thes e . Th e Ri g h t li on. B aronet not understand that cry. They had the majority, and 1 11 : . t proposed the income tax quite i n d e p en d en tl y o f t h e fi nances o f therefore, in their power to do it, and they might as le_rept India.—(Hear.) That must be evident to all who had on the taxes he alluded to, as the taxes which Hon- the Ist° listened to the speech of th e Right H on . B arone t on t h at men sa i d they ought not to imp ose . Did they charge t i e siell subject. With respect to India, he must say that from first to last Government with crippling the trade of the country r ep e ctlf he had viewed th e recen t ex t ens i on o f our emp i re i n I n di a it impoverished and unable to bear tax a ti on ? Did they n ap with horror and d e test a ti on .—( H ear , h ear .) H e t h oug h t t h ey them of having increased the expense of the col tor were led into the Affghan war by an insane idea of protecting No. They accus - d them simply with taking e e e uur se° Asia from Russia n po wer; w h ereas i n f ac t, th e Aff g h ans t h em- I tion, which they them ache s could not summon al' t atre selves would have been a barrier against the advance of that i to put on. There was one topic ;ntroduced to se far 4 power. So lo ng as th e y rema i ne d on t h e ot h er s id e o f ' debates, in on vielneli he would beg t o t rou b: e t he 11 °`' be Go' the Indus n o di sas t ers were lik e l y t o occur ; b ut t h e case was few moments, because of the tone teken by Members of t io inve e far other w i se -hen we overstepp e d th a t f ron ti er. —( H ear, vernment on this occasion, which he never remembered e eoh hear.) With respect to Am er i ca , our pos i t i on was ent i re l y seen taken by the IMembers of an y f ormer Govern or e on different. It would be necessary t o ma i nta i n a strong f orce i n j but which he 11• d often heard imputed to Membe r ' lot of Canada, b e ca us e that coun t r y was riot equa ll y pro- posing the Opposition—he meant the system on the oap tected—it was more open to the attack o f R uss i a. the Gaseannient of depre c i a ti ng th e resources o f the c° istee; If they attempted to carry on war in China and Asia, to Much had been said about the disasters in Affgb an oo l, colonise Australia, and send expeditions to Africa, they must more had been said on that subject than was dee° l : o . el expect to pay heavy bills on these accounts. With respect to an occasion like the present. It seemed to him, if t d; th e . . the tariff and the income tax, it was evident that, even though agreed that this disaster was as great as they s e ' st phi' no alteration had been made in the tariff, a large sum would be great and serious sorrow would be rather more sil e it h Ib l , required for the service of the country. The question was, it was, and it did not betoken much sympathY l o f d 1 would an income tax, such as was proposed, be the hest means fr ends of the sufferers to come forward and tal hod I+f sir of meeting the deficiency ? and lie thought that the Ho- water in the House of Commons. If they . h a ew I + l nourable Member for Bolton had, last night, proved ! respect for the bones of these brave 'hell that n et see ° that to take two millions of the people by means of in lirect tax- I unburied on the mountains of India, it did naa e par a ion was not the same as taking the same amount by the I to be evinced in their using them as materials for Mn i ;Jfeee• mode proposed by the Government. He recollected that, in fare.—(Hear, hear.) He knew the way in win e sa id , 08 1816, when he had but one constituent--_h e —h e was G:ntlemen on the other side misrepresented what was par asked by the Duke of Newcastle to vote against the income this occasion. On last night he saw with great pans t he eel tax, but being against his conscien•ious convictions to do so, , Lord the Secretary for the Co'onies misstate what ila 1311 t; he said th a t h e would rather accent the Chil ern Hundreds. I said by the Right Pon. the Member for Edinburgh- ma p But the Duke of Newcastle told him that he had ma , the same I was at least satisfac ory, that the Noble Lord, who was ; S s reqae s t of all hi s Members—(Laughter) -and that he need I honour and geese teeing, amply and fully retractedi tote be wader no apprehension on the subject, becau e half of his I there was eoretractation of the cheer by which the mist! e gg „ i Me abers —(Laughter) —were going to vote in favour of the had been accompanied —a cheer which was tu' e a tas tax, and half of tnem wire gulag to vote against it.— discreditable he had ever heard. He (.‘lr. B.) laser! ta lk!: (C ifitinued laughter.) He now had the honour to le- I the Ilieht Hon. Baronet was very sensitive when they l e st present a constituency of three thousand persons, who we-e I the country having suffered greatly in the Walcherenl, as independent as any constituency in th , s kingdom. , tion. The Right Hots. Baronet, indeed, seemed to ta' oB - e tio: and 1 had not heard a word from them objeetiogsto time tax • expedition untie'. his especial protection. In 1810 a se Ith ir —( Hear, bear.) No WC was good in itself ; but he questeened . was mute condemning that expedition, and amongst t a s nisi,{ whe tier the necessity of the tax being established, the same ; voted .i. tavoLir of that ex edit on, and contended that iteve r i se tel_ sum that was required to meet the necessities of the country ! conducted and managed, was the Right Honourahletis, lr soul Ibe nisei by any means so efficiently and a a conaeniently 1 opposite. Atter hay ng thus supported that exped f l A gobt: as b the Plan of an income tax. That tax would not be Right Hon. Baronet ought to be lenient in the case t a , a (rfn burde ,some to th ,se classes of the community who were istan. Another subject was touched upon by the.,,a' e- oarTae least of all able to bear it.—( Hear, hear .) He would only say ! tleman who ha just spoken. When the Bight ta te : r i e acie°' a few words more with respect to what had bee a so eloqu ottly : I first brought forward this snbject, he alluded to the lit ale pus forth by the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Dun- !in the ',Mien revenue. On Friday la.t the B i g ln jeeat l P gasven, on the subj e ct of the oath which was required of the . Baronet brought forward the subject much more re bel co; parties paying the tax. He thought that if an affirmation in- The deficiency ,vas assumed at five millions, an d t d, r ee steul of an oath were required it would.answer as well. and ' sieer: d that this country ought to make up the Inman 't". while the produce of the income tax would not be thereby di- ' cien.l. The Right Honourable Baronet e ert t l i e iciee, minahed, the feelings of a respectable portion of the community England was not to make up the Indian foal its would be consulted .—( Cheers .) He begged, in conclusion, is not. then what was the use of bringing it _l4 it s to state that he would cordially support the measure of the If England was not to make up the Indian deficien e t t e well Government with respect to tle income tax.—( Cheers. ) left out of the debate it had' nothing to d o with „ _ ,holek s Mr. C. BULLER said he was extremely obliged to the tax. When he heard the matter first alluded to, n e tb ` e giro House for the very long time th•sy had allowed him to 'occupy from the manner in which it was brought forward by et tbe d ir it s attention on the last occasion ; he should not trouble them Hon. Baronet, that it was a more forcible argu tee- bo o il by repeating any of the objections that he felt to the tax itself; really was. In the country where people might e sta tete r ga he should only beg leave to remark that, from all that had oc- quainied with Ite•ian affairs, when they saw tbLg o t 0 8 0 corned since, those objections were forced on him even with made on this matter, they would exclaim—" a - e. - d greater strength than he had f e lt them before. In the first revenue of India Whoever heard of such a thiu: es la l 1 place they had since heard language from the Right Hon. great must be the rapacity of those Whigs, that the Baronet which appeaied to him peculiarly ominous as to the India could not suffice fur it.—(Hear, hear, and .77101'11.1 duration of this tax.--( Hear, hear.) henW the Right Hon. After this, they must cut off the head of 14 4 l etT o s Baronet first proposed this tax, he spoke of it as one which A deficiency in Indian finance had hitherto been 14 ' t a te t o was to he unpopular for three years, and but barely hinted at ru e. The expenses exceeding the revenue, was a w bott. d . the probability of its being continued for a longer period.— rare exception, owing to Lord William Bentinek, yCn7 r (Hear, hear-) out a few nights ago the Right hoe. Baronet party opposite always taunted for his economy. B ed Vdia n d o .' who really could not appreciate the force of his own manner cellor of the Exchequer e..er dwelt before upon an ? late a aei so well as Gentlemen who heard him, spoke of it not only as a licit, as a ground for taxing the people of England pai l niA tax to be imposed for three years, but spoke of five years as ciencies in the Indian revenue were, for the five •//:-. for r , the prebable period of its duration ; and what had alarmed 1814, 104 0001. ; for those ending 1819, 107-v l ' oo 4 + . l B Ol him still more, he did not say that the tax would be termi- five ending in 18.4, 27,000/. ; and, in 1829, 2, 878 ',00, ° sr nated wan at the end of fire years.—(Hear, hear.) At the it was a curious coincide nee, that in the year ,' r of the 0 end of that time he intimated that the subject would be taken there wassuch an Indian deficit, the present Chancell o r c onteS o ot i eta the gra% est consideration of her Majesty's Government, chequer. then filling thesame office which henow h e ' s:3 ,oo o, o ly arid according to the state of public feeling, and the feeling to take off the beer tax, which brought in an income ' ct P relto s+ a of her Majesty's Government, the tax would be dealt with. He quitted this subject of alluding to the argume nts te rl / 018 These were not the precise words, but such was the impres- used in that debate, because it seemed to him that the b pi sion he had derived from them. He must say, that in slew of fair question to, on discussed in the resolutions 0 f Lo rd) ile all that Gentlemen on the other side had said about the unani- Lord, the Member for London. He (the I:4 9 ble s ition• on miry with which this tax would be entertained, that he (Mr. certainly deviated from the usuil practice of °Priai a bt *eV Buller) had received such communications as to the feeling had deviated from the course adopted by th e e n the ' g ib+ existing in the country against it, that he was convinced when Baronet when in opposition last year, who. when bu t bil e be it came into operation the people Would feel it to be as odious Lord's budget was brought forward, opposed it, e ugh t VI I as it. had be er , f e lt to be in former times. He was convinced for sari none of his own ; who explained w as h a " egoble o glit that there would be a constant assault going on against '.his done, but refused to say what he would do. a il l t l ' er ) th o. it portion of the revenue, that there would be a constant agita- took a less prudent course, but he (Mr. B e bea t/ Ape ) tion kept up, which would not cease till it had been successful. it a mere satisfactory one to the countrY'one i.401/ 1. He therefore repeated that it was with great alarm that he saw was more manly arid straightforward, and theaeued° a step taken which, instead of giving security t o the finances would redound more to party , interest la the asa. t hel of the c o antry, would place a large portion of the Lord. The Noble Lord the Secretary of n whia' l s al revenue in an uncertain position, and would trierefore operate had told them that there were some points: the re w_ tio fe with dangrr to the public credit of the country. In entering agreed. They were agreed in the opinion th e t res i, Obl at e on the arguments that had been brought forward on this sub- deficiency, which ought to be supplied ' ver y bY ta res. ject, he knew that lie was entering into that wide field in which They were agreed also, but it was a new die e ° o3a nufs e e tiela the House had expatiated without much profit or advantage. tlemen opposite, that the trade, commerce, OIL in teroe,;oo o He could not see the exact logical application of the arguments of this country were languishing, and required t,7 l . acto ry ', t he/ that had been so frequently used on the other side. Thus of the Legislature to restoret hem. It was sat' so d 0 _ p er' when we say teat this tax is inquisii orial, you say, Oh ! are you that this was admitted by the Governmen t, eou rse b s s eel not going to war in Affghanistan ?—( Hear, hear.) When we ' were about to act upon it. Now they had ° d tw to In eet t O , say the tax is unjust, you say how can that be, when there is posed. The Right Hon. Baronet proposed ~,4 tssat i° os . 00;" a great war in China ?—( Hear. hear, and laughter.) If we , ficiency in the revenue by plans which imeora o,ore pram say this is a bad time to pat on such a tax, we are immediately which carried out the principles cf free tr.:a: oo t pruir,a for saluted with a taunt of having taken off the post office tax.— Both were taxing plans. The Right Hon- paa nt ry, I '4 die (Hear, hear.) Whenever these arguments. were used, to get hits met as for the expenditure of the cou roooo t l ea p) however absurd or irrelevant they miht be, Hon. Gentlemen hie free trade experiment, by a very large a o.jeart ed ia opposite were always ready to cheer hem—t Hear, hear)—on rect. r taxation in its most oppressive form•—, s , 11 1 bee/ whatever grounds they might be offered. Now let them see He proposed to deal with the great monostoee na ha d o der how these al guments would tell the other way. Suppose it I them up, and as a commencement. the Corn-law tar•ll to happens to he as you say — suppose there were really any sen -e sent to the House of Lords. He proposed in hi s en ° L o rd', in what you say—( Hear, hear, and laughter)—supposing these very rigorously with all the minor and least roet lies. Were all ie the course proposed bye Noble y - se ° to be fair arguments, how would they bear on his particularh re lie s to at case ? Suppose, individually, with regard to himself, it was cor er s g o To attack the great monopolies, to get from the ' n v" es , • wholly his fault th a t th e country was taeig h, iw o it s present the means of meetin the exiencies of the e as ked ,eeo te 1 condition; suppos e i t cou ld h e sa id t h at h e had taken away from were the characteristics. f the too • lans, and bet for 13 oib 7 ' the revenue of the country, 'hat h e h a d wise d th e ne e •aee of was superior ? The Gallant Colonel, the n.ni_ a, a nd a o . the expenditure, e el i t t a llow that, to e . pan the disaster, had favoured them with a very marvellous, I ,°' firop lei • • he ought t o h ave recourse to means that would inju e merle account of the persons upon whom t n sv e ...jd f- th at the peopl e , an d put on a tax w hi c h he consinered would fall. He said the tax on sugar c ,tietu to 'cord' thoroughly bad and mischievous ? Such arguments could ',lily gr 'atm degree than an income tax—he I , e s _ r e e' NO obi° telt in an assembly c :iistituted like that House , where a great the tax 'en sugar, as propifited by t" mend that rS°Plf die. more weight was attached to party hits than to solid argu ments of justice or p o jj e y.—( il e ar, hear.) ;'',w after all these the income tax would be borne by onlY ,* d el end et 'sl arguments and recriminations—were t, i,L. such a - lion • n s win) would dimini-h the priee—he forgot t0 . me ,00,000 r e , e s Y .G. title- it must mate Lilly injure :he pe se.- 000 burdens' we el s men opposite h a d t h e peculiar r i g ht to use—w. re , heyetiot such the capital empliosd by those '2OO, _ e _ bus dens , fter al: arguments as hit t; em, as well as those on this site of the Noble Lord's p an, in tead of inereasitig Irw this Pla n ' a f th Hine, ?—( Hear, hear.) On the subject of the Chinese war I have very seusibly diminished them. and "a corn ewrae 0 1 °er° they had a lotig &bete ten years ago, and thole who eefended I likely to give re: •t' to the manufacture: , ,tiec,.? ghat prO,' the policy of the Gov. rninent - never heara of these difficulties. I country:atm relief of these who were con 0 per and tin erode The matters in dispute were not attributable to party, but arose tt:e changes proposed by the it ght Hon. of i s lronet ? The 81. ' 4' tariff' m e Nom, from tne policy that had been pursued fiv e when, contrary to the judgment of many who warned them • or the various other articles mentioned which th e 0 . 0 10: years bc•flre, or of this counts were not consumers in iciisp of the consequences, they had opened die China trade, when 1 man consumed bread and sugar. The relief brea, land sugar.socee the same parties told them they would be compelled to c.,me j Lord.would have given on the articles of i . set t i hat th e . 1 t the/ into the conditions required by the Chinese Governmeet. ! have come home to every man. It bad beeniae classes , Im o oa t were ve i l of their expenditure having been in- j tax would confer a great benefit on the working m iddle °e l% , e+,', crease. by the affairs of Canada.l Then they i aeairs -Ie (Mr. Buller) Illig-It use must recollect that the object in taxing the the working: '' s o f It''' this argument against- either side, fer he had voted against the !to keep up the worst taxes pre i sin, on are ber for Brecon to o to hi. policy of the Government with regard to Canals; but how did ! taxes on bread, on sugar, and . 1 gcemmen necessariesid a l / the argumeots apply to Gentlemen on the other side? What ,' —( Hear, hear.) The Gallant l portion of the policy of the Government that brought on the in emphatic language had gi ve r n out t disturbances was discussed, in mat, the votes of Gentlemen 1 constituents. He e b eiu , Fen c t o e n g o t 1 l o a d f t a f h o e p r h e t a t i l i d g e e t s m o: y l k d h e i t c o l h i f em p h e e , b h u e e I T: e 'e r: l u:: so c , l , opposite did not help to swell the jrity ? Did they not aid . consent to a tax on Je tt ( in carrying the measures of the Noble Lord opposite ( Lord I would have been far o e B er_ e i e f o h n e t h h a a d t h fi e ni o sh e Stanley), who was then Secretary of the Colonies, . h .ve told the people h t e;enue of other persons bol l ,: in toS e v d er th c a o t obl • res ' be and whose department towards ILSanada was so conciliatory, a tax on bread f,r t B e e r , ) . ) be_ that one of the causes of the quarrel with the English Govern- State. If he ( Mr.. . er Lau m er tg t l a tt r he merely vs isliedeo_ciiieg ment was the tone and language used by the Noble Lord in : rathrreurious question—( „h t fed he Wes tou r h i° of Gentlemen opposite—he . n 1 he a be one of his despatches.—(Chee, s. ) Then there was an Hon. lit for the benefit hoedthe House wow . 01 i .i. round, but hep Gentleman last night —a facetious county Member—facetious on delicate e ' conclusion—he would ask the representativa! , i het, after the manner of the county Members — (great laughter) — to his . interestwhich of the two lans would peo t t h r: sigh: who said that one of the legacies left by the late Government protective onthe :whole ? It appeared to him t hat tec tive in t , to their successors, was the disputed boundary question with interests t had done great injustice to the I' l.° s - se w - nen,. the United States of America. Why, he should have thought Hon. Baronetallowed to diverge arg ue He M; Buller ) was not insensible to the tr il , is that Hon. Gentleman, if not from his .information, at least terest.( . side f i li - 'that free trail , on the other ot le ouze, . from his respectable age, would have known. that he was put • used f