The Sun. — London, England, 1815-02-23 00:00:00

, - - - •••••,. o , s , ...1..41 1 / 4 -0.,, CIMI l O.; 'fell nothing more than the eviden ce be tote the other House to prove it. . It was ins-- Nate to read that evidence, without seeing the Partiality with which it had been drawn up. prom the style of the witnesses -examined, it was cl ear they were. all on .one s id e, but .nothing e conclusive against them than there evidence could have been hoped front the examination oF-a set of witnesses, • all of the opposite party. : In. 1 04 t hou g ht the price then named as 'the importation "ee, a satisfactory price. It was for bins to shew 10 13 r that which was then a protecting price, was. TRI t sufficient now. It was said his expences were Incr eased. He (Mr. Baring) hoeentle- Men wh o treated this subject 'gen p er d ally; some wo G uld go a little into the detail, and shew what these ex- Nnees were, and how it happened that they would oat be lessened in consequence of-a declension- in. tae price of. Corn. .All his expe nces ( except i ng, b t "es), he ma i nta i ned, must follow the price of t 'ead• It was said the expence' for horses was greater than in 1804; but as these were the P r oduce of the farm (of some farms at least) though th a t produce • bore a -higher p r i ce t ha n "'"rty, it was not to ••be taken into consi-. deration as a serious augmentat:qn of the exe . P'oces.of which they complained. Thl.: seeds, hat- I l le l ss ' and blacksmith's. work were menti one d.— „ hat- Ills' only gave an additional charge for labour, -L „'-'inels must' decline w ith t h e pr i ce of suStennce. `he i a ncreased charge for manure, • and the coin -I.lints founded on it, he considered as absurd.— ," cakes were spoken of as increased in priee ; : D ' lt it was evident that the miller would sell them ( 1 ' t he far mer at half price, rather than throw - l ern away, as the seeds must be useless to him tv aeu the oil was pressed out. It was in one in 4tinee where 2s. were formerly paid, as many. t,citleas were now demanded -for the same quail ti„tY. Of this article. there could be no diminu t'oo in quant i ty; and it was therefore impossible 0 I - arty G ent l eman not to see, that it must he sold for that price which th e f armer could afford to Pay. So much for the general merits Of the coin- Plaints, of the Petitioners. The price fixed upon ti 4 those who had given evidence before the Coin ttee, as that 'which would protect the farmer, l a's eighty shillings, and • the siitnesses who stat, t'' this, universally stated on the supposition that all the charges for taxes, labour, and rent, l ' er e' to remain the .same. .As_ the farmers took ii.e . Corn at a low, and every thing else at a 11l price,. in order to make out their case, 10* could the Committee give • them relief under such circumstances, when they must 1.: 1-0w it was impossible hit- the high prics of t.tils our to continue, if the price of Corn de r:enied ?• One of the most sensible 'of the wit.;- sse s wilo were examined; had 'been asked, "Jf bulelaieulated on wheat bein g so ld .at Bs. the sa ute I .' the exp ences o f -the farmer continuing the is!'i• ' W!tat Would be his ,profit ?" The answer ve- a %,,,,,. • t au, ~ -0, that " if the question were founded on t at . ti;!'e',farmer would lose 21. 105. thequastei . lah o 's could not be, as hisexpences for horses, xhit 11r ' 81e. must of necessity be diminished .to ad u--as,7ifil his sellin g his Corn at that price." • This they °th e , had . a ,,,_ wordi, telling the Committee that asked a very foolish question ; such - a one as the th e 1 ' Y Could not- have thought of asking, if Y lad h a The sy nc ''. . 01 1 e sensible man among them all.— witness, was asked this- question—" Are ti otill. rh o. , d i H Y of the expences of the farmer the same, 1 / -4 g° the value of his , produ ee is diminished ?" sh. l e answer given to this' by Mr. Webb, who, it "°41(1 be remembered was himself a farmer, was ' that th e y m i g h t b e for sonic! short ti me , h ut cou l d . t b i Q t he for any numb er o f years. " This answer be t'"hglit conclusive, and every one of the wit ilcs ," bad answered to the same effect as Mr. erb e °b, though not so very distinctly and to the 7 Pose ; and- all wanted a protecting price of s • if their charges were to continue the same b a , i t P r eewil.- It had b een sa id the rents paid had t 00titug to do with the q uest i on. He should like r7tis„ bear some 'Gentleman s t ate t hi s i n that Com te e, and g i v e his name to it. Among the wit fsses examined was a Mr. Brodie, a great Scotch Z 4le l e haut, wh o h eld an estate for which he paid , l tit.rt per annum. Some years ago, he had paid m te sa e lands but about 20001. This rent h a d vepadvanced from '2Bs. per acre to 51. and some 61. ills neighbours had theirs raised to 6,7, and benPer acre. He considered his landlord had e . 1 t moderate in only increasing his rent from ...;3 1 t ~, ; 0 51. from 20001. to 60001. Were they to told, that if his rent were lowered again ~..-coook that it would make no difference ? Nettling was m ore c l ear than that it would, ,! 41 e 1 " g more obviou s t h an the fallacy made lie of by those who asserted the contrary.— tesseousidered the measure now called for lume n),and improp e r, as a moderate sacrifice on N. Part of the la n dh o ld er would answer every tisie ° se. On the average, a fourth produce of the ;a d we nt to the landlord, a fourth to the tenant, C iat the other two-fourths were expended in 4iise ges• Now , talon 'takin ta g Bs. to be the gross pro- ft of the l an d , 20 would go to the landlord, 20 % v . 'e tenant, and 40 for Charges If the landl or d (t old • a., 'go back to take but what he took 20 years: rs.Nut t would rece i ve but 10s.; but still, though 1)r,,,t4g but one-eighth of what had been the ti lmio i ee of the land, he would be in as good a si. , foi,t„)" as that in which he now stood. Let a e l , d `.'.l,be d educted.fro m the profits of the tenant, iii i , l ti u'arth from the suns set apart for charges, t ake,, i t . e . result ' would be 25 'shillings might be 'lse ~- : ..r °' " the 80s: and this , would bring down th e re,c of the quarter of Corn to' . 555. BLit if kid a'l"lord shoidd go back only half so far as he the rie'ioPosed that be should—if lie only lowered I t , 4 .0 f an estate, which had been raised from l e t . . 11 i ° , (3 " to 1500/. that might enable the tenant .'et we ."' C)l:u_at-,605.- and lea‘e a „ good maygin 4,,, ll the sl.-Ilin••• price and the present Protect" ` '"ll li t i t l( '- e ' °1•• ( i's s . b l.' 'here was . something which . f ' nu t to Escap e . of ~i tc h the notice the Comnrittee, e f ern WaS the difference between the present and • ler style of 1 01- t h e cot . .. living among the farmers all ..10 ult.y. Formerly a bottle of port was Avii i it a „ in 4I .411, 011 b ' , lt luxury ; Ina riots', go where you vt , a he g thefarmvrs, you will generally find thby if'Alict toot lett 'of Madeira to put beside their Port. 1 .11,-ev ensure them for indulging in luxuries Ati t , e°4l (l iffn, 1 ' •-•( to purchase t tem, e t odurckl that they should come to Pat-- LI, 1 I] ament and petition tc be supparte4 - in thew ;it the expence of the community at large. Yet thi s was what . they were now d o i ng, f or every one who kne w Any thing at all of country matters,, knew that the farmers now drank their wine with as much gout as any Gentleman in that House. If, notwithstanding ail he had said, the Commit tee did not think any 'of these things worthy their consideration, if they thought the landlord ought -to abate nothing of his rent, the tenant give up nothing of his profit, still would he main tain, that . a protecting price of eighty shillings was that which could lint be justified. Of the witnesses before the Cononittee, Mr. Maxwell, and Mr. Crabtree, ha'd mentioned 755. as a good protdcting - Mr. - Mann., had spoken of 725. as beingr,snflieient. After this, if the Com mittee did not take itito ,their consideration the alterations in the :4_iyiee of 10.30ur . , of rent,. &c. Which ought to take place, nor the change which might be made by the tenant in his mokol still would 80s. be a most extravagant price to fix, as that at which foreign COrtimight be import ed. Mr. Henny had cal - Mated,' ,tirat 7s: br Bs. 'per bushel would be a ,proper...protecting price, and therefore if they came to decide on the single naked question, what shduld be the stun tley ought! to •name, .they must: be, of opinion 80s.. would be too high. Whatever the Committee did, he trusted they would look at the "subjeet with eyes very different from - those of the Com!: mittee who. had sat up stairs. He was not,against, giving the farmers relief for some distress be believ ed to exist at present. This indeed could not be denied, and thotigh it might be said that the farm ers ought to be more cautions in taking their leases and purchasing their land, still lie was dis posed to assist them, prOvidtid it could be clone without injustice to the Public. This it appeared to him might be effected by raising the importaL tion price higher for a limited period. He would propcie that the present price should be taken' as the pr .. - ecting price. 'I his done for a period to be then to be gradually lowered, would, he thought, give the farmer time to recover him self, and ten 'to 'bring things back' w their old state by gentle degrees He should first move, that the words " for a time to be limited," should be inserted in the early part of the Resolution before the House. The question. respecting the Bank. Restriction Act, he considered as not re motely connected with this subject. The Paper Currency, and the Country Banks; it appeared from the evidence, had had considerable influence on the price of Corn. A permanent measure with respect to the Corn Laws ought not be decided on at present. What he recommended he pro posed as a temporary expedient. !Having moved as an Amendment to the Resolution before the House, that the words " for a time to be limited' ! should be introduced :he stated it to be-his in tention to suggest the propriety of substituting in the after part of the Resolutions, for 80s. 765. which pt ice he felt disposed to prefer, in the- pre sent instance, to 725. Mr. PRESTON said he could not suffer the pre sent question to pass without giving his - decided opinion on the subject. He then- began to s_ hew the great advantages of agriculture, from the time of that most sagacious and politic Prince Henry VII. ,in whose reign it was a ll owed that pasture land was a . clear profit, bat tint the cultivation of corn was a great risk, and therefore ought to be protected by all fair means that were posSible. That great sage of the law, Lord Coke, was many. years afterwards, when the subject was better un derstood, deCidedly of the same opinion. 'Froth the time of Lord Coke, agriculture had risen in estimation, and Was now arrived to that height, that during the late tremendous contest, had, en abled this country to triumph over all her enemies. He confessed he was not surprized to find that th e , Citizens of London were impatient and clamorous against paying 30 per cent. more . for- their bread than was paid in the country. There was no rea son for this : they ought unquestionably to have their food as cheap in London as at Exeter, where meat was sold for sd. and 6d. the pound, which in London fetched 10d. He was clearly of opi nion, that unless the Parliament encouraged the agricultural interest of the country anti supported the farmers, which was the only sure way to make bread cheap, the worst consequences mus Sir F. FLOOD requested the indulgence of the [louse till he said a fe w wor d s on • the present pestion, which he was the more induced to offer o their .consideration, because neither of the last speakers had said a sy ll a b le on the state of Ire land. He adverted to a meeting which bad taken place in the county he had the honour to repre sent (Wexford), consisting of laymen, spirituals, and other agriculturists—( (Y laugh) ;—and from these proceedings, it would be seen, that such meeting was of one opinion that there could be no distinction or difference of interests between the agriculturists and the manufacturers,,and he who was not a friend to either was an enemy to both. Ireland had in the course of eleven years sent. to this country eleven millions of quarters of grain, and this was a fact which ought to con vince this country how very important the con nection - between the two parts of the United Kingdom was to each. Viewing things in the light he did, he thought the House was it) duty bound to encourage the agriculture of Ireland; and he should therefore vote for the largest shin. Lord BINNING, said, that after the very clear manner in which the case had been opened by his Right Hon. Friend . (Mr. Robinson) he had hoped that all the Gentlemen who took part in the ills cusSion Would have abstained from examining it as a question of party, and.above all, that they would have abstained from throwing out topics of . inflam illation. He was sorry to find that in this hope he had been somewhat disappointed. The Gen_! denten on the other side had attempted to narrow the question as with respect to those who took the side of it that he did, but to indulge them Selves in a very wide field of discussion. They stated the question shortly to be a question between the landholders and . the whole community ; and sometimes they put the land-owners on one side, and th e p oor on t h e other. He must de n y that this was any thing like a fair statement of the case. He should contend that this was no question be tween the interest of the country Gentlemen and the Manufacturers, or between the Landholders and the Poor. When they talked of the whole coar:;!d;:t7, lie couhl riot exactly see what th e y meant. they fo rget , that upon the Land holder' depended the farmers, the labourers they employed in - agriculture, and tire different mecha nics and little shopkeepers in the country towns, that were supported entirely by the agricultural interests. If all the persons thus interested in the prosperity of agricniture were reckoned, he . believed that the majority of the country would be found on the side of the question which he supported, and that those who were called in ar gutnent the whole community, would he found to be - a minority. When an Minoru - able Gentlenian' (Mr. Baring) had stated that Corn might be im ported ai"45S a•tfUarter, and that all the excess of price above that was a tax levied on the eonimu- • dity for the benefit of the Landholders, he was really surprised at hearing such an argument - from a Gentlernairso acute andsclear -in his CO mprehen- Sion. What was that contiguous country from, whose ports we were to . be sapplied at that price-?' It was' France. It -;.was• therefore - necessary to , compare the situation- of that county with that of Great Britain.' France had a population of 26 or' - 27 millions, a revenue of about 35-millions, and a debt of 70 millions. • In Great Britain (he should dot speak of Ireland at present) the. populatiOn was 12 millions and a half,' the taxes 'GO Millions a year ; and 'the. debt between 8 . and 900 millions. It therefore appe3redthat the people of France viere taxed the rate of less than one pound •for each • individual, while the people'of this Country Were taxed at the rate of five'pounds for each. "Under' such unequal circumstances, it was r idiposiible that there could be 'an equality of prices; - The IlOn. Gentleman thought proper to make many remarks on the onode•of expense of the farmers and their families. It appeared however, surpris ing, that he should have forgotten the growth of the wealth and magnificeifee of the trades-people within the same time. They, too, occasionally indulged themselves with wine .as well as _the farmers ; but he was so 'far: from being.displeased at this, that he was' happy. to:, see the, increasing wealth of - the mercantile part of the community. He must deny the statement of the Hon. Gent. that the landholders of other countries resided more upon their estates than time landholders of Eng land. He believed that -the very reverse. was :the fact. He believed. that therevras not. a country upon earth where the -landholders resided so much Upon their estates. ; - They:there_fortned the Connecting link • between the crown and the peo ple, and diffused-blessings .thraugh.the:Conntryin consequence or their residences superior to what the owners of other 'countries did : and yet this was the -class of people that it . was now ,en deavoured to hold up to public odium- An' Hon. Gentleman who spoke on a :former night (Mr. Marryat)., had•professed the g - reatest,.disintereg 7 edness in the capacity. of ••a - country-gentleman, amid had spoken of the -great. increase of ,rent 9n. a farm-that was' in his family for a long time. This increase the Honourable Member, seemed to think was too great, -and therefore .that it ought to:be given up' for the good , .of • -the •country.,,Such conduct he would allow to be very ,disinterested. An - Honourable, Gentleman (Mr. • Baring) -•had stated the evidence on the report, as if no one bad 'thought of a highe r price th an ' 80 s: • H e might, however, see in that report that Mr.Artbur Young, Mr, 'Wakefield,-and others, did think of a higher price, and stated. it. For hiS part,. he could not attach much Weight to the evidence of. Mr. Mant, which had been so much relied on up on the other side. Mr. - Mant was not a farmer, but a merchant (a very respectable man no doubt), -but he was a merchant who had taken .a farm.— He-had not stated the result of his experience for he had none ; but he had stated what be-supposed that his experience would be in future, from the calculations that be had made. As to the taking Off the Property Tax, he would allow that that mast in ike some difference, but not:nearly so great as was generally ;opposed. On an average calcula tion of a•farm of a hundred acres, all the direct taxes, including the tenant's property tax, might be calculated at -181. I's. 4d. while the poor rates alone amounted to 33/. 19s. 2d.. He would rate the tenant's -property tax at 2s. 6d. an acre, at the very highest. Now, as the average of a wheat crop was at least three quarters to the•acre, if We were to divide this half-crown by three, it would appear that ten-pence a quarter was as much as that Property Tax affected the price of Wheat: The Parochial Taxes, on the other hand, might be considered aka charge of 2s. 101. on the quarter. The removal of the Property Tax, be sides, could not be considered as clear gains to. the farmer. Other taxes were necessarily imposed their place. The addition to the• Assessed Taxes Would be felt by the farmer, and, as he heard that they now drank port wine instead of ale, the new of 20/. a tun must also partly be paid by them. In the depressed state of agriculture for the last 12 months, some relief was absolutely necessary.— Numbers of persons-had been t'nrued out of em ployment, and the pressure of the poor rates was become intolerable. It would be said by some that this depression was but temporary. Supposing even that. it did proceed from temporary causes, that - would not remove the burden from the diffe rent :parishes. Most enormous losses had been suffered in. the last year ; and If some speedy remedy was not administered by.the wisdom and firmness of the Legislature, the agricultural inte rests of the country might soon-be completely ruined. It. was not asking for a minimum, of price, to ask for. a price to be fixed at- which foreign farmers, might be allowed. to import' their Corn, duty free. The price of Corn in, all the markets of England and Scotland was in a great measure governed by the price at Mark-lane. He believed it was perfectly true, as had been stated by one lion. Gentle Man, that it was time increase and improvement. of Our agriculture which principally enabled this country to get out of the desperate contest in which we had been so long engaged, with honour and success. Ouragricnlthre could not be, carried on upon -an extended - and improved scale, but by the applicati on of large capitals. It was impossible to give time farmers a remedy for what losses they had already met, but it was pos sible to save them from still greater 'losses. He believed. that the country never yet sustained so great, a loss as it would suffer now, if the legisla ture were'not to interfere. A great deal had been said against the improvement of poor lands. if such expressions were to go forth as the senti. mews of the legisla:ure ti',.:on the sabject, it would cut up all improvement by the roots. ..the light lands w ou ld be first throw n o ut o f cultiva v n oninto degenerate and inferior pasture. In many districts of the country a want of capital wag. still strongly felt ; so slow was the applica tion of capital to agriculture, even where there • had been encouragement. How much slower would be the - application of it, if it was pointedly discouraged. by the legislature ? When an Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Baring) talked about attempting to cultivate sand - and rocks, did be recollect what was the state of the County of Norfolk. before the- new and scientific system of agriculture bad . been introduced there ? Norfolk was now a pat tern to other countries which were more favoured in their soil. From the improvements of agricul ture, we might now see the progress of cultivation up the sides of bills, which .bad never before been ploughed. We saw black moors now yielding to- . • the plollgh, and giving crops, not of wheat, .but of oats and rye. On the subject of Ireland, should forbear to speak at present. It - was not that he did not feel it of the-most vital impor •cance, and a principal feature in this question 3 , but he .wished now to come to the great question,- --what was the country from-which thee. Gentle men on the other side expected to draw.their.sup ply ? He thought that it could not be too often rung in the ears of the House, that that country was France.- France, previous - to.therevolution, was not an exporting country. it- had, however, since, been greatly improved by doing away of mapy- , .abuses,' that existed prior to the revolution, and, by thealivisiou of lands that took plate subsequent • to-it. :He then read an extract from a letter which.' he had received front an' English GentlemarLin. .Paris, stating the very . .prices of Corn:in France, and the impossibility of our ageiculturist s , contending againSt them witholit Parliamentatiy protection. France was :now •ready to export all her surplus produce to this country,:and her .last. harvest had been .most abundant. Supposing that. the system should. be- establi s h e d o f d epending upon F rance for our,supply, , and a scarcity s h ou ld take place i n that country,..whAt,wOhld then be come of us ? put this Supposition on the,groand of our being long at peace with France, which he ardently . hoped-might- be the, case,: and:which, from the Wisdom - and virthes'-of 'that expellent King,-who,succeeded Our.lateierremy s as well as;the• temper and moderation of his Majesty's Govern • ment,-he was led to - expect!. :Rut supposing a war. to take place, .when • France,- that- , had' become our granary, should declare - herself our -enemy. In that caw, it would clearly be in the power of France,iby refusing- a_suppiy 'of corn, to placethis• country - . in-a.most, diStressed-.-and perilous•situa lion., He hoped, indeed, that even wars might; its future be conducted upon more liberal principles. than hitherto ; but still he could not risk-the en tiresubsistence of the nation on sitch a hope, and be content to. rely on the generosity of an enemy. ; ‘• The - Plough, the Loom, and the Sail,"•was an old and - favourite - device to this country. The , plough,.hoWever, was placed first in rank s as he thought it deserved to be.. Did Gentlemen now wish to degrade it froth that rank which it was formerly coneeived to be entitled to ? Whatever might be said of the importance of foreign cern merce, the whole amount of it did not exceed ones , tenth of our internal trade. If from;the ruin of agriculture, the means were diminished of 1)!V -chasing manufactures at borne, the dot Wing of . our foreign - co:Nrn;:vce svueid not re pl ace the • country in the situation that she is in at present. • •Mr. ItOSE said, that•on a former night-an Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Baring) 'bad assumed, that he - had entirely changed his opinion and view of the subject. He would venture to say, that his mo tives were as disinterested aS• those of any other 'Member, and that there was nothing which could bias his conduct against the common interests of the country. Ile certainly could not agree with that Hon. Gentleman - in his statement, that a bounty . of IS millions was now given by the coin. immunity to the landholders . of this country : nei ther could he agree with hint as to the facility of - bringing corn front France. He was convinced that ss. a quarter was far less than the expellee- of - carrying it. AlthOugh in sonic countries, as in Po land, corn was easily collected at the sea ports by , Means of great navigable rivers, yet the corn Which was exported from France was•collected in different districts, and broUght at a considerable expellee to the ports front which it was afterwards to be exported. There certainly was last year a most redundant harvest in France, and Corn could, therefore,- be sold cheap ; but he did not believe that France wOuld ever be a great exporting court- • try. He had always, however, a decided objec tion to being- dependent upon foreigii supply. He had always said, " Protect the Corn-growers of this country in the first first place, give them.a Moderate anti reasonable, protection, and then afford every facility and relief to the consumer.'' Tl.s had been r always - his opinion-, and he bad never expreskd any Other. He belieVed that no thing could be "more mischievous than an tin.. shackled importation. • •When, however, last year it was proposed to change all the -laws that regu lated and controuled the exportation of Corn, he opposed so great and sudden an innoyation in a sys tem,of laws that had existed for 500 years. He thought i t ras h an d i mpru d ent to overturn that sys tem on the sudden feeling of the moment. He, how ever, then said, that if they-- had thus chosen- to grant a free exportation of corn at all times and • under all circumstances, they shoidd be particu larly cautious with - 'respect to allowing importa— tiOn. , As to what had been said of the evidence of Mr. Webb, he must observe -that that -Gentle man was so perfectly convinced that prices could not be kept up to what they bad been some t . iree back, that in all his leases, he put a condition that the rents were 16 'NI as the prices fell. As to the new taxes, he did not see hove, they could affect the farmers. A to the poor-rates, he was inclined to believe that they would rather fall than rise. uninformed as be felt himself upon this sub ject, and wishing to Obtain,informathlt, he had voted for the appointment of a Committee to inves tigate it. The Committee Sat a considerable time, and bestowed considerable pains ut:on the investi giition. As he had not, however, at the tnae heard the whole of the report read, be should now comment upon those parts of it to which be would have objected if he hart been present. In the first place, there was a mistake in the report, which