The Sun. — London, England, 1849-03-07 00:00:00

Vlitrb Mbttion SUN OFFICE, Seven o' Clock. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. (THIS DAY.) HOUSE OF COMMONS. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Twelve o'clock, but some time elapsed before a House was made. THF _PEACE MOVEMENT. Mr. BROTIItRTON presented petitions from Lan cashire and North Wales praying that all national dis putes may be settled by disinterested arbitrators. Captain HARRIS presented a similar petition from Christchurch. THE NAVIGATION-LAWS. Sir EDWARD FILM ER presented petitions from the mayor mad corporation of Gravesend, and also from the owners and masters of ships who had sailed to all parts of the world, praying that there might be no alteration in the navigation-laws. THE FINANCIAL MOVEMENT. Mr. PAGE WOOD presented petitions from several places praying that the expediture of the army, navy, and colonial agents may be reduced to the rate of 1835. RATE IN AID. Sir D. NORREYS presented. a • petition from the Union of Mallow, praying that the rate in aid might be equally applied to the whole of Ireland. - REPRESENTATION OF SOUTH DERBYSHIRE. The SPEAKER announced that he had received no tice of the death of Mr. Mundy, the representative for the Southern Division of Derbyshire. TRANSFER OF REAL-PROPERTY. On the motion being put for the second reading of this Bill, Mr. H. DRUMMOND said that, previous to entering on the peculiar merits of the question before the House, he felt it necessary to state. a few of the facts out of which it had arisen; and in the beginning he must say that this was not a matter in which the lawyers only were concerned, for it was peculiarly a question in which the owners of landed property were especially affected, and in which they were almost solely interested. With the altera tion—if it were effected—the lawyers, as a body, would have no reason whatever to be dissatisfied. He would, therefore, now simply repeat that in taking up this case of the difficulties of landed property it was necessary for him to show how the present emergency of the proprietors had been brought about. The difficulty in which landed proprietors were now placed was no new thing ; it had always existed, even from the very period of the conquest, and ho might say before it. To show that such was the case he would read them an extract from the book of a celebrated lawyer. But he must previously remind the House that all lands under the feudal system were originally held by military tenure. Each holding supplied its men capable and ready for warlike service, and wherever the occupant was unfit or thought to be unfit for such ser vice the lord of the land did not hesitate to remove him, and put another that was so fit in his place. This had led to the supposition that there were some peculiar qualities in, and some singular rights connected with, land. But he must contend that it was neither more nor less than, a commodity, disposable as other articles were to be disposed of, and capable of be ing dealt with as all other commodities were dealt with. The landlords of these days, however, required other than military services, and, pretty much like their suc cessors in the prisent day, frequently got into debt. Their creditors, unable to force them to payment, or to seize their land, in consequence of their means of resist. ance, naturally went to the judges. Well, this lawyer said that the judges, also naturally, when they were sp. plied to to give power and authority to seize the land, said no; but it the landlords keep the laud, they shall not have a hoof to put upon it. The remedy for the evil was certainly at the best inconvenient, generally dan gerous, and sometimes impossible. The landlords them selves, too, when inclined to get rid of the inconvenience of debt were equally at a loss. They had nothing to give in discharge of their obligations but their land, and that they were unable to pass away, and hence their distress. It was true that a great part of this system died away at the close of the- Tudor dynasty. But was there of necessity any reason in the power now exercised by the Court of Chancery, which was first of all to say, when any unforseen contingency arose in the transfer of property, what course was to be adopted, and secondly, to devise the means of carrying it into effect. He thought where •• they had an hereditary aristocracy that was csiential to that condition of so ciety; but he did not think it was necessary to every other. But he was not going to enter into that su bj ect . The expenses o f sales of property were immense, owing to these causes. He held in his hand a list which suffi ciently exemplified the costs arising on the sale of small properties. In one case, where the value of the pro perty sold was 5001., the costs were 1241.; in another, where the value of the property sold was 1501., the cost of transfer was 501., and in another, where the value of the property sold was 6201., the expense of trans'er was 2001. He said, then, that every attempt that had been made to diminish the expense of transfers under the present system was entirely useless. He should be glad to know how they could predetermine the length of a conveyance. If they wanted to shorten the recital, they must shorten the deed itself. They were completely in the hands of the lawyers at present. The landowners knew nothing whatever about the titles to their land. A solicitor brought them a paper to sign, and they signed it, and put their hand upon a seal, and then repeating after him, they signed and delivered it as their act and deed ; and they knew no more about the contents of the document than the poor, helpless young girl who came to sign her marriage settlement did of the nature and operation of that instrument.--(Hear, hear.) Now, he contended that it was above all things nicessary and desirable to cut up the root 'of those evils. The only means by which the House could effect this alteration efficiently was by a register in the first place, and by making the entries on the register book evidence of the transfer of the property. There were great objections to registra tion he knew ; the best summary of those ob jections was to be found in the third volume of Sir Edward Sugden's " Vendor and Purchaser," where he summed up all the objections. The question was, who was to register ? Oh, said the landlord, I am to register. Why ? Because lam the owner of the land. Oh, said the lawyer, on the other hand, I am to register. Now, an equity lawyer was very like a police man.—(Laughter.) A policeman never saw a man with a good coat on his back but he wished to have him before a magistrate, simply, because he was the owner of a good coat, and envied him for it.—(Laughter.) Talk to a lawyer about your property, and the first question he asked was—has there ever been an examination of your Title. He (Mr. Drummond) believed substantial justice would be done in 99 cases out of 100 if the House passed a declaratory Act that every man from this hour should have a Parliamentary title to all his estates. Lawyers had a perfect horror at the notion of a man's having possession of his own estate.—(Laughter.) He would say to landed gentlemen, if they wanted to get this done without bringing their title-deeds and laying them upon the table before every pettytogging attorney, that he would advise them to support this Bill.—(Hear, hear.) They thought, no doubt, that was not very palatable. There was a Commission sitting at the present moment, and he (Mr. Drummond) happened to know some of the " secrets of the prison house." An eminent man on that Commission said to a witness—" I know very well there is not such a thing in my belief as a strictly marketable title, and I know that a court of equity will nut compel any man to take a title that is not free from doubt, either as to matter of fact or of law. We then submit, on the part of the vendor, an abstract of title to coun sel, and request him to advise upon that ab stract, with the view of stopping up the loop holes in the title ; counsel then gave their opinion; what can be supplied was supplied, and what can't he sup plied was a matter of consultation with counsel, and then the conditions of sale are settled." That was a legal question put to a witness by one of the most eminent men, and the answer of the witness was that he did not disagree with the words in the interrogatory, Now, Sir Edward Sugden said that out of 50 titles the 50th only was bad. That showed, at all events, that the ex amination of the title was a great difficulty under the present system. In framing this 11:11, he (Hr. Drum mond) had to consider, first of all, this House ; and, secondly, his (Mr. Drummond's) position in it. He must know how far the landed gentlemen in the House were prepared to go. They could not bore a hole with a saw. If ho knew the extent to which the landed proprietors would go, he would then frame his Bill exactly to that point; but he had been compelled to frame his Bill without knowing exactly where be was to slop, and under the apprehension that he might stop short. Now, one objection to registration was the making it compulsory. (Hear, hear.) Now, if they meant to have a compulsory registration, there must be a machinery already prepared on the same day to receive every title-decd. Now, in Edinburgh alone there was business enough to fill 400 folio vo• lumes at least. Ile thought registration should cer tainly be voluntary for a great many reasons; any thing that was compulsory with property was always dangerous; and, secondly, vi ew i t as they would, they were laying the foundation for altering the whole body of law; and he thought the more cautiously they pro ceeded the More the House would feel its way. The Honourable Gentleman went en to say that he had no personal motive in bringing this matter before the Hoase, and ,concluded by saying that he should not propose to go into Committee with the Bill until the courts of law again sat at Westminster, when the House would have the assistance of the ablest lawyers in the House in discussing its merits —(Cheers ) The SOLICITOR , -GENERAL was satisfied that the Hon. Member (Mr. Drummond) would not find among the members of the profession of the law any difference of opinion respecting the great evils arising from t h e complication ee porlance of simplifying the and the great im p transfer of property and of raising money upon it.— ( ll ear.) That - s the strong desire among the members of the professio n , so far as he was acquainted with their feelings. Irohlieelittehre Hon. Member introduced his 8111 ho (the sV • General) looked at it with a sincere desire that i t would remedy the existing evils. lle-believed,however,if it were carried into effect Just as it stood the only persons that would benefit by it to a great extent would b e th e whole class lawyers.—(lfear, hear.) The question of registra lion had attracted the attention of lawyers for a con siderable time, and the objections to it had not come from the lawyers, themselves. Fifteen years ago, when a Commission on registration made a report, only one lawyer of any considerable eminence w a s found opposed to it. The greater part of the opposition to registra tion had always "'An from country gentlemen. He believed they Would-be the persons principally benefited by it. With respect to theßill, a few observations upon some of its provisions would convince the House, and ho hoped the Lion. NeLuber for I SlArrey, pi the utter hopelessness THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, MARCH 7, 1849. of ever carrying it into effect.—(Hear, hear.) The sub ject generally was involved in a complication of difficul ties, and while he admitted that considerable improve ments and alterations could be made in the existing system, he was bound to add that the system of local re gistration suggested by the Hon. Member for Surrey was not calculated to accomplish the object he had in view, nor would the Commission which the Honourable Gentleman proposed to establish succeed in removing the difficulties which surrounded this momentous question. Now, in reference to the Bill itself, after passing over the first six clauses, which related to the establishment of a registration commission, the House would perceive that by the seventh clause it was provided that all docu ments should be registered, and also all evidence relating to the title of land which the owner should think of importance for the purpose of establishing his title to the property, and then further down there was a direc tion that it should be lawful for the owner to register a description of his land. It was, therefore, left doubtful whether the owner was to register merely the deeds and documents relating to the land, or the evidence of title in both ; but it was clear from the language of the clause that when any registration was completed it should not be necessary for the owner to prove his title. By the existing law, however, the registration was not complete evidence of title, but this Bill provided, by the 29th clause, that the party who had registered the document and evidence of his title after the lapse of thirty years should become the absolute owner of the lands to which the deeds and evidence referred. Now, by the interpretation clause, the owner of the land meant a tenant for life, with re mainder to his children, so that if a maa who had regis tered a title to property were to die without issue his brother, or his brother's children, could not claim to be registered as the owners.—(Hear, hear.) That might, indeed, not be the intention of the framers of the Bill, but that really would be the effect of it.—(Hear, hear.) The Bill in fact took no notice whatever of remainders, while all the pro tection that was given to the public that a man should not register another's property, was that the party re gistering should give six months' previous notice in the Gazette of his intention to do so.—(Hear, hear.) But how could that notice prevent a party register ing his neighbour's , estate with his own? True, the Bill provided that any party doing so should be guilty of felony, but what protection was that when it was taken in connexion with other parts of the Bill?—(Hear, hear.) The other provisions, indeed, were still more ab surd, if he might be allowed to use the expression; for in stance, the registration was not to be an open one, and any party who was desirous of searching the registrar could only do so by first going through the expensive proceeding of proving his title to the land he claimed. No such proceeding, however, was extorted from a party who wished to register an estate, which, in his view, was rather a strange anomaly.—(Hear, and laugh ter.) Then again, having proved his title, a tarty was not at liberty to search himself, but was bound to depend upon the search of the registrar, and if he were dissatisfied with that search he could only search himself by obtaining an order of court. The Bill, however, omitted to specify how or where that order of court was to be obtained. He pre sumed, however, that the cheapest mode of obtaining such an order would be by summary applica tion to one of the Chancery Courts, but then of what avail would even that be when the Bill provided that before a party could amend or annul an entry he must first prove his title? The result then would be that the Bill would be productive of endless litigation, instead of amending the present system, and a party who might be anxious to put the owner of an estate to expense and trouble had nothing else to do but to register himself the owner of the estate, which registration at the expiration of thirty years would give him the title, and before the real owner could annul this entry, he must go through the expense of an action at law to prove his title.—(Bear, and laughter.) It was a difficult matter indeed to secure an effective system of registration, and it was equally clear that it' they could hit upon a perfect registration, it would be a great desideratum, which the Bill totally failed to supply.—(Hear.) There were other parts of this Bill which were no less anomalous than those he had already referred to, but he would not trouble: the House by going through them. He could, however, as sure the House, and the Hon. Member who had introduced the Bill, that he had carefully considered it, in the hope of finding that some of its provisions were calculated to remove some of the evils of the existing system, but be was satisfied that if it were referred to a Select Commi:tee the Honourable Member for Surrey would find himself constrained to give up clause after clause as being impracticable, and that, in fact, the only improvement that could be made in its provisions would be to give the Bill up altogether.—(Hear, and laughter.) Upon that view of the case he would suggest that the better course for the Hon. Member to pursue would be to withdraw the Bill for the present. He confessed he should not feel dis posed, eeling the strong desire that he did on the subject, to meet the motion for the second reading by an express and direct negative ; but he would ask the Honourable Member whether it would not be advisable to withdraw the measure with a view to the further examination and consideration of the subject, which it would be admitted was one of very considerable difficulty, so that with the assistance of others he might be enabled to introduce hereafter a Bill which would carry into effect his own views and objects in a better and less objectionable mode. Mr. WOOD said he had listened with great anxiety to the speech of his Hon. and Learned Friend the Soli citor-General, but he regretted without any hope being held out that the desirable object which they had in view would be carried out more fully and completely than could be done by the present Bill. He feared, from the way in which his Honourable Friend ter minuted his speech that the prospect of so desir able an object being effected as that proposed by the present Bill was as indefinite as in 1832. In that year a Commission was appointed, which was composed of men of the highest eminence in all ranks of the profes sion, and of men also who were thoroughly acquainted with the theory and practice of convect ancing, and it came to an unanimous conclusion that a Bill for the general registration of real property was imperatively demanded. That was not a new idea, but one entertained by every eminent lawyer, from Sir Matthew Hale downward ; and he must say that Honourable Members had not done justice to the lawyers, for they were the only persons who agi tated the subject until the Honourable Member had happily taken it up, but they were invariably opposed by the country gentlemen, who were the parties really _interests din the matter. He could not help alluding to the words of Sir Matthew Hale, who, in the time of Charles 11., saw the extreme necessity of a measure like the present, and who took that large and compre hensive view of the mode in which land should be dealt with that was generally entertained throughout the country, but which was then confined alone to the enlightened few. He said that the regis tering of all conveyances would prevent much litiga• tion, and do away with many opportunities which were afforded to parties to cheat and defraud others. He also said that in England our greatest inland trade was the buying and selling of land, and that, therefore, greater security ought to be given to creditors in that respect, and to persons who lent money upon the security of land, and that the buying a n d selling of land ought to be as free and un controlled as that of every other commodity. Chief Baron Gilbertson and Mr. Justice Blackstone, and every other legal authority up to the time the Ccnsmis sion was appointed in 1832, entertained the same view. That Commission not only recommended registration, but pointed out a definite plan by which it could be carried out, and the conclusion they arrived at was nut only participated in by lawyers but by the country generally. When the Noble Lord the Member for North Devon brought forward a measure in 1836, the House was counted out, there being only twenty seven Members present. Under those circumstances, it was perfectly refreshing when the Honourable Member for West Surrey gave notice of his intention to bring in a Bill of this description, and thought his (Mr. Wood's) name was upon the back of it, and al though he did not mean to follow the example which Has witnessed the other day, arid to repudiate his con nexion with it, he begged to say that the whole credit of the Bill was due to the Hon. Member for West Surrey, and to the other gentlemen who assisted him, and that he only saw it after it had been prepared. Many of the objec tions which had been urged by the Solicitor-General he attributed to his not having had time, in conse quence of his numerous avocations, to look inconsistent told the i l into th e Bill, b ecause many of them were totally bad with the Bill If hi s Friend House itse th lr a ' t the Government were prepared to bring forward another measure for complete, full, and effectual system of registration, he confessed that he 'would have been infinitely gratified. A committee of g ent l emen was appointed, two years next April, to inv es ti gate the subject, which t heydid with a great deal of earnestness; but they hadonly lately been told that the report was ready, and it would have been still furth er d e l ayed but for the notice of the lion. Member. He did not mean to say that the Bill was completely effectual for all th e purposes- which it was intended to accomplish, but it was quite sufficient on the present occasion to maintain the principle of the Bill, and to show that it was capable of being fully considered in Committee. The objections raised by the Solicitor- General would be found in no way to apply to the prin ciple ' of the Bill itself, which was t o g ive s ome better security for the titles of land, and to diminish the in creasing expense of the present system of conveyance. —(Hear, hear.) The subject was too large to enter into all the existing evils ; but he would refer to a publication of Mr. Tyrrell, who was one of the Commissioners in 1832, in which ha mentioned eight remarkable cases of fraud in conse quence of the want of a proper register. A person had paid 20,0001. for an estate, but it was afterwards found that the fee was only held for three lives, and another claimant coming in three years after wards, he was obliged to give up the whole property, and so lost the whole of his money. Such a state of things ought no longer to exist. Frauds were every day being committed, and were becoming a matter of common occurrence. England was the only country in the whole world which did not adopt the system of registration, and it had been established in France, Belgium, and Holland, and also in Ireland, and in some counties in England. When they made a serious change o f the ki n d suggested, they ought to leave persons free to register o r not as t h ey l i k e d , b ut w h en property was Once registered every subsequent transaction or transfer with respect to it ought also to be • regis tered in order to make a legal title, In Middle• sex the important business • of registering was effected by the attendance of a merely formal personage, and not of those who conveyed or w they!y,interesteci in th e matter. Noautheerneticoatthioenrwwlases required of the accuracy of the statements. The objections urged against the Bill were more in respect of its details than, Of its: principle, and the proper arrangement of these details could be easily effected. He agreed with the Learned Solieitor• General that the indices were the most important part of the Bill ; but their nature would also suggest themselves in carrying out the purpose of the Bill, as they could consult, with that view, the indices used in Bavaria and other continental states, as well as the plan reported It would be well i o p r o n t h b e yt Househe Commissionerstake t i h n at lB t 3 hey did not adopt a stereotyped form of index, which could not be altered without ass Act of Parliament. He hoped the House, being satisfied of the necessity for such a measure, would not consent to its postponement or abandonment, unless her Majesty's Government would state that they would undertake the preparation of a similar measure on the subject, which he regarded as one of the utmost public importance. Sixteen years had already elapsed since the report of the Commissioners of 1832, and if they had to wait five or six years longer, it surely was time for the country gentlemen to bestir themselves, in order to get removed those improper imposts which at present pressed upon land. Every Honourable Member who had purchased land must be aware that the soli citors' charges were often as much for a small as a large property—sometimes the conveyance was 5/. per cent. upon the whole purchase.—(hear.) Mr. SLANEY said, though he could not deal with the technical parts of the question, yet he was firmly im pressed with the belief that at no time was a measure of this kind more required than at the present moment. When all the great lawyers concurred in the necessity for such a measure, and they had a knowledge of the evils that at present existed, he thought it was time to pass a measure of this nature. If the Government thought the measure an unfit one, and ought not to be sent to a Committee up stairs, he hoped they would give an assurance that they would at the earliest possible moment bring forward a measure themselves. Though the present state of the law affected the opu lent and wealthy classes most injuriously, yet it operated with increased severity upon the middle and industrious classes, who were prevented from investing their savings, as no doubt they wished, in the purchase of land. The facility which they should possess for this purpose was withheld from them, and hence that stimulus to the culture of land and to industry, which it was the duty of the House to foster was in a great measure destroyed. Besides these classes had greater charges put upon them than the upper classes. If they looked at the sale of land for some years, they would find that, in consequence of the heavy legal and other charges, the loss had been equal to five years' purchase, for instance, in consequence of the difficulties of proving title. He trusted the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Drummond) would perse vere until a measure, with a similar purpose, was passed into a law. Sir G. GREY quite agreed with the Honourable and Learned Member for Oxford (Mr.; P. Wood), that the House was much indebted to his Honourable Friend opposite in introducing the Bill before them. It his object had been to elicit the opinion of the House upon the expediency of establishing a general system of registration, not only with the view of keeping up the value of property, but of facilitating its transfer, and at the same time diminish the enormous ex pense, his object had been fully answered, since no opinion had been expressed hostile to the necessity of such a measure, however much some Hon. Members might differ in its details.—(Hear, hear.) And looking back to the period, which many of them no doubt recol lected, when Registration Bills were before the House, it was satisfactory to find to-day that a great change existed, both in the House and in the country, as to the benefits such as measure was calculated to confer. He should have no objection to vote for the second reading of the Bill on the principle that registration was required. He would not follow the Hon. and Learned Gentleman in detail; but would caution the house against consenting to the second readings of Bills because they con curred in their principles, since they thereby adopted details which perhaps had not been duly considered. Bills were frequently sent up to Committees, and were there remodelled, and rendered altoge!her different to their original state; and when sent back th e y were no t unfre quently proceded with as if they had stood as at first. With respect to what had been said by the Honourable and Learned Member, as to requiring a pledge from the Government that they would bring in a mea sure, he had to state that the Learned Solicitor- General considered that the present Bill would fail to effect the object fur which it was introduced. He (Sir G. Grey) thought it would not be fair, under the present circum stances, to proceed with the Bill. It was now two years ago since a Commission was appointed headed by Lord Langdale, and composed of other men competent to deal with the question; and when the House knew that they would shortly report to the House he thought it would not be well to proceed with this Bill until the Hon. Gentlemen and the House had seen that report. The Government could give no pledge as to what course they should adopt until that report had been presented. That report would receive the atten tive consideration of the Government, who would do everything in their power to facilitate the object which the lion. Gentleman had in view. Mr. HENLEY could not give his consent to a measure of this kind until he had seen the details.—(Hear, hear.) A registration was in force in Middlesex, York, and Ireland, and he had never heard it stated that any of the difficulties or expenses referred to had been thereby obviated. This Bill had not effaced from his mind the great difficulties involved in the question. He agreed with the Solicitor-General that it would be better to withdraw the Bill, and to introduce another after the report of the Commissioners had been presented. The vast expense of the macbiuery was too great a matter to be left in the bands of a private Member of that house. Mr. EWART thought it would not be well to proceed with the Bill in the absence of the report, and intimated that he should vote against the Bill, but with this quali fication, that the Government should subsequently intro • duce a Bill. Mr. MULLINGS said the Bill woulil be attended with infinitely more expense than the present system. He had perhaps one of the largest conveyance businesses in the west of England, and as a matter of course vast quantities of property had passed through his hands, and he was prepared to assert that the present expense had been much reduced, and that the length of the conveyances was caused by the frequently numberless provisions which they contained. He must dissent, therefore, to the proposition of the Honourable Member who claimed support for the Bill, on the ground that it would reduce the expense of conveyance. Property was usually valued, nut so much in regard to the claims of the owners, or their relations to it, as to its value and rental. He would undertake to prepare the sale of an estate, seized in fee, in ten lines; but where provisions were made for children and others, much language was required. He could not concur with the principles of the present Bill, and he must, therefore, oppose the second reading. Mr. MUNTZ thought that something ought to be done, and must be dune, in order to simplify the transfer of real property in this country, but it ought to be done without consulting parties that had no in terest. No plan would work well which allowed title deeds to be looked into by any parties other than those who had an interest in them. Mr. 11. DRUMMOND having replied shortly, Strangers were ordered to withdraw, but in conse quence of The ATTORNEY-GENERAL rising to address tho House, no division then took place. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, on our re-admission to the House, was moving that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. After some observations from Mr. H. Drummond, Sir George Grey, and the Lord Advocate, Sir ROBERT PRICE said, he should vote for this measure, and against the amendment, in order that the registration of estates might be simplified and their trans fer rendered more easy. Sir H. VERNEY would support the second reading of the Bill, believing that it would be productive of great good. It did not go so far as he could wish, but still it was a step in the right direction. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House divided, is hen there appeared— For the amendment of the Attorney-General 45 Against it 55 Majority against the amendment ...-10 A result which was received with loud cheers. The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed on the 22d. AFFIRMATION BILL. Mr. PAGE W 001), on the motion being put for the second reading of this Bill, said that his conduct in proposing the second reading would be directed by the proceeding which might be adopted with respect to it by lion. Members present. If the Bill were not opposed, he should confine his remarks to a very brief compass. If it were opposed, he should, of course, of necessity, enter at some length into the reasons for its adoption.— (Cries of " Not opposed, not opposed.") Well, then, he should simply content himself with moving the second reading of the Bill. The Bill was then read a second time and ordered to be committed on the 28th. LIFE POLICY ASSURANCE BILL. After a few words from the ATTORNEY•GENERAL and Sir H. WILLOUGIII3Y this Bill was read a second time. POOR .LAWS (IRELAND) BILL. The resolutions of the Committee on the Rate-in-Aid Bill were brought up by Sir W. SomEnvu.LE, and agreed to. EFFECT OF THE POOR LAW s h pe e ef cclerkt parishh o e f the m aei in t Brighton, d ii s c t e o n o e . Captain PECIIELL, i n mov i ng for copies ' of the se veraltin withio Union il l e ffor t toeamrnss thewrec rcserietvisietedrrye.tbeoyi? r r e k t John Ledger, his wife and family, whose relief was withdrawn by the Godstone guardians, pursuant to the instructions of the Poor-law C omm i ss i oners, founded on the opinion of the law officers o f t h e C rown, said that his object in moving for these papers was to abolish that odious system of oppression by which a poor man, if he had any means whatever of a partial sub sistance, was compelled to abandon his family. The course of which he spoke was one in which a man capable of serving his Queen and country was prevented from doing either by the uasettled state of th e poor-law. The Poor-law Commissioners had in 1846 submitted a case to the law officers of the Crown, for-the purpose of ascertaining whether parishes who had in curred expense for removal before the Poor-law Amend ment Act was passed ought to beindemnified by others. The decision given was against thedefrayment of such ex penses, and he might say also against the opinions of many of the highest legal men in the country. By this decision fully one-third of the pauper population of this country had been made irremovable. This opinion was obtained in August, 1846, and ;et no notice whatever was given of it to the several unions for more than two months afterwards. Nevertheless, although there had been several attempts to tinker up the poor-law, and he had repeatedly asked the Attorney-General in that House when ;he state of the law was to be settled, it was 113 until the 25th of November that the Queen's Bench had come to any determination of the matter. Yet, though the Judges had decided that the interpretation of the Act by th© Poor-law Commissioners was correct, his (Cap tain Pechell's) constituents had rebelled against it, and were determined to resist it. He did not mean in any way to include an allegation against the present Hon. Member who was at the head of the Poor-law Board, when he designated their conduct as being in accordance with their usual course of bullying; neither would he allude to the late President of the Board, whom no one could be lamented more than he was by him. When that Hon. Gentleman entered upon his office he had looked for better things; nor had he be en disap.• pointed. He had evinced a constant desire to mitigate the operation of this law upon the condition of the poor, and had he been spared he might have been the instru ment of much greater good than that which he effected. —(Hear, hear.) He had hoped that when the Honour able Gentleman who was now Chairman of the Board entered upon his office, that the system was cleansed of all its evils, but it appeared that there had been so much that was bad mixed up in its constitution that eradication of the mischief was impossible. He said the House had great reason to complain of the way in which the whole matter bad been treated. Al though the most eminent men in the House, and others out of it of great legal knowledge, declared it could not be the intention of the Act to settle persons who had resided five years in a place, yet the country for two years were kept in that extraordinary state by the Poor-law Commissioners.—(Hear, hear.) The Poor-law Commissioners in their annual report merely just noticed the fact. They said they had submitted the construction of the Act to the Attor ney and Solicitor-General, and they believed the country was generally satisfied wii h their construction of the law. That document was signed by George Nicholls and Ed mund Head. The House ought to have those gentlemen before it, to say why they mystified this subject, and why they kept the country in this state, by which parties were put to the greatest ex pense, and the poor to the greatest misery that could possibly occur. It might be said Lord Denman had given a decision which was opposed to the opinion of the Attorney and Solicitor-General. The present President of the Poor law Commission acknoaludged that the construction of the Act had been 'cult d by Lord Denman, and parishes had been saddled with expenses wholly unnecessary. In one pa rish of Brighton the poor settled in the teen cost 1,168/. ; and it was in order to get an explana tion from the President of the Poor-law Commission, and to rectify the difficulty which the Poor-law Commis sioners had thrown on the country, and in order to see what power there was to obtain a remedy from them, that he had brought this subject before the House. There might be three courses. The first course was to get the money from the persons who had caused all those difficulties. Mr. George Nicholls and Sir Edmund Head should be applied to for payment first of all, and in de fault of them he should look to the Government and the Peor-law Commissioners to reimburse the parish for the expense of their non-resident poor when the law was un settled. Then, again, tho Hon. President of the Poor-law Board should bring in a Bill to enable parishes to repay this expenditure. He did hope something would be done where so manifest an injustice had been created. The Poor-law Commissioners had had their amusement, and he now called upon them to pay the bill. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said his Honourable and Gallant Friend was aware that the Poor-law Commissioners could not have the papers under their control. As it was his duty, so he at once stood up and took the whole of this matter and the responsibility of it upon himself. The Poor-law Commissioners had nothing to do with the matte!. ; they merely acted on an opinion given them by his Hon. Colleague (th e S o li c i tor -G enera l) an d himself on the construction of this statute ; and he (the Attorney- General) was prepared to abide by that opinion. The question as to the construction of the clause was whether the proviso was retrospective or not, or whether it w as c l ear l y prospect i ve . H e and his Hon. Colleague gave th e quest i on t h e b e st consideration they could, and they came to an opinion upon the Act, which they gave to the Poor-law Commissioners. They were not singular in that construction ; many Hononourable and Learned Members in the House and many lawyers out of it gave the same opinion, that the proviso was not retrospective. He (the Attorney-General) appre hended he did his duty in putting the best c w o a n s s t r u n c e t t i o n te h e bla c m ou e ld b e u e p a o u n s e t h h e e A h a c d t, e a e n t d h la , d e the concurrence of the Learned Judges in his opinion. Ile apprehended that no blame could attach to him be cause he'gave an opinion two years age upon the con struction of an Act of Parliament, which the Court of Queen's Bench had since overthrown; nor could the Poor-law Commissioners be blamed. They had no power to send a case before the Queen's Bench, though he, in his capacity of Attorney-General, mooted this mat ter in the Queen's Bench on their behalf, but the Court held that they had no right to decide sooner for one party than another.—(Blear, hear.) In this case then there was no ground of complaint, at, all. He alone was responsible for the opinion he had given —not the Poor-law Commissioners, and he was prepared to take it upon himself.—(Hear, hear, arid cheers.) Lord DUDLEY S I'UART said, notwithstanding what had been stated, it was quite clear that the opinion:of the Learned Attorney-General was wrong, and that his lion. and Gallant Friend the Member for Brighton was right.—(Elear, and laughter.) The con stituents of his Hon. arid Gallant Friend had, in com mon with others, been put to a great deal of expense by the opinion of the Learned Attorney. General, and the complaint therefore of the Hon. and Gallant Gen tleman was not ill-founded.—(Hear, ht ar.) The papers Caen ought to be produced. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL —And so they will be. Lord DUDLEY STUART in that case had nothing further to say.—(Hear, and laughter.) Mr. HENLEY gave it as his opinion that neither the law-officers of the Crown nor the Poor-law Commis sioners were to blame in the matter. Certain parishes had applied to the Poor-law Commissioners for advice as to tne construction of au Act of Parliament, which led to their laying the Act and case b e t ure t h e A ttorney and Solicitor. Generals for their opinion, and in their pri vate capacity the Poor-law Commissioners had forwarded it to the various parishes throughout the country for their guidance in arriving at a proper construction of a diffi cult Act of Parliament, but it was quite optional for those parishes to adopt the advice or not; and ho hoped the House would not consent to r e - o p en i ng of the ac counts which had been incurred in consequence of the opinion.—(Hear.) Mr. BAINES could assure the Hon. Gentleman that the Poor-law Commissioners had no power whatever to consent to the opening of the accounts, which had been audited and finallyjsettled.—(Hear,:hear.) His belief was, however, that the parishes had not suffered much from the opinion of the law officerasinQeodufeetnhb,esy C B ro oenn w ee n h, being sr of another; but, at all ev en t s , op u fpa parish p e therAbsyand mightp a parish i sh Court hße vbey the loss, if any, had not been so great as was repre sented by the lion. and Gallant Member who had in- The Poor-law honour to suc ceedct r () er ei d u mw e e ies d r.sei o t nn h eo e rt s t o u w b b j hl e ae c mol t . -;hi ( ne i t e hi a l ea r d , r, hearattthe er.,) for all they had done was, not to advise certain pari s h es as to the course they had to pursue in referenco to a particular Act of Parliament upon their own responsibility, which they had no power to do, but lay a case before the At torney and Solicitor- General and forward their opinion to the different parishes as the best advice that could be obtained on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. BANKES thought the lion. and Gallant Mem ber who had brought forward the motion had more cause for complaint than seemed to be allowed by many Hon. Members who bad takes part in the discussion. He felt that a degree of blame attached to the Poor-law Commissioners for having advised the Government to resist his suggestion to introduce a declaratory Bill, and at once get rid of the difficulty which arose from the construction of the Act. Under these c i rcumstances, o c e f r s the o t Hon. e C . r ti o n w d n , Gallantand t that ac count Member the parishes had no option but t o f o ll ow the opi the opinion of t e h e e m l p a l w ain o t ffi was a perfectly just one.—(Hear, hear.) The ATTORNEY-GENERAL perfectly recollected the Hon. Member making the suggestion to which he had just referred, but the Hon. Member was w rong i n supposing that the Poor lawCommrei r sionershad advised fact Government not to adopt ea hear.) The was the Committee which was then sitting upon the po poor-laws - ined that a declaratory Act ought no to b© introduced. asde ter Mr. BA AKES said the Learned Gentleman was not quite correct. He happened to be a Member of the Com mittee, and he proposed that the first thing they should consider was this very Act, with the view of introducing a declaratory Bill. His proposition was however rejected. Captain PECHELL was glad that the papers were to be laid before the House because the matter could not rest here.—( Hear, hear.) He considered it his duty to follow up this subject, because he considered the House would not sanction so great an act of injustice as tha which had arisen from its bad legislation. PENSIONS, &c. After some further discussion, the return was agreed to. Mr. HUME moved for the following return, with some slight modification, which was not distinctly heard in the gallery:-_A list, alphabetically arranged, of all persons in England receiving salaries, pensions, pay, profits, fees, emoluments, a llowances or grants of public money, between the sth day of January, 1848, and the sth day of January, 1849, the amount of which exceeds 2001., stating the total amount received by each individual, and distinguishing the sources from which the p a y men t s are made, -and the aggregate of the whole ; similar list of all persons in England receiving salaries, pensions, pay, profits, fees, emoluments, allowances or grants of public money , (not including those persona paid by wages), be tween the sth day o f J anuar y, 1848, and the sth day of January, 1849 th e amount of which is not above 501., an d not excee ding 2001. sterling each person, th e tota l amount r eceived by each individual, and di s ti ngu i sh i ng the sources from which the payments are ma d e, and the aggre gate of the whole ; so as to exhibit i n t h ose two lists ever y p e rson in Eng land in the receiptof o f 50/ from those and upwards • from all other sources of public money (the Church Mr. BANKES, i n moving ex cepted). Al so , t wo similar lists for Scotland, and two similar lists for Ireland.--Agreed to. THE TWO SICILIES. for an account of all Ord nance stores ret urne d from that departmen t t o a ny con tractor in the y ear 1848, for the purposo of be in g s e nt to the Sicilian insurgents in arms against her Majesty's ally the King of the Two Sicilies, with the consent of her Majesty's Government—said as it would affect our character as a nation, he thought it his duty to call the attention of the House to the subject. It was a remarkable fact, although legislation upon matters of domestic policy was canvassed in all socie ties, that in that House alone did it happen that our foreign policy was BO little entered upon. Matters ro- lating to our intercourse with foreign states were either too early or too late for discus sion, but there was always some reason given by some one on the Treasury benches why the present was an inappropriate occasion to discuss those particular subjects which people out of doors were freely discus sing. If all matters with regard to our foreign policy passed with advantage to the State and to our own character, undoubtedly it might be reasonable not to dis courage that mysterious sort of tranquillity which hitherto for a long time has prevailed in regard to our relations with foreign powers. But they looked about them, and they saw that was not the case: our relations with foreign states were not altogether of an entirely satis factory nature, and ho thought that an humble individual might be excused if he spoke of the political cir cumstances which were now passing- before their eyes, and brought the matter prominently befure the House. In many of those countries with which it was our interest as a great commercial nation to be on terms of friendship, things were not in a very satisfac tory state. True it was that there was no war, and he begged to say that he was as much opposed to war as the Noble Lord the Stcretary of State tor Foreign Affairs, and that he was most desirous to promote an amicable and peaceful policy, and would avoid all those sets which would, by any possibility tend to disturb exist ing tranquillity, and which would lead to hostility, and when they saw at present, wherever they turned their eyes, thut our relations were not of that umicable de scription which was desired, he felt authorised in bringing the subject before the attention of the House.—(Hear, hear.) He would touch for one moment upon the events of last year, and draw the attention of the;House, in the first instance, to our relations with the kingdom of Spain. At an early period of the session, last year, our relations with that country were not of that amicable nature which was desired. Rumours of an unpleasant description were afloat, and questions were put to the Government which elicited only very short answers, until at last those ques tions were interrupted by a signal fact, viz., the arrival of our ambassador, who had been sent away from the Court in disgrace, the whole particulars of which had never yet been explained to the House. In reference to the matter, he submitted a motion to,the House in the month of Juno last, and one of the highest authorities of the House told him that the motion was premature. Not meeting with that degreelof encouragement, without which ho had no desire to trouble the House to vote upon any subject, he did not pr ess hi s mot i on to a divi sion, and indeed the Noble Lord (Lord Palmerston) would not give him an opportunity of having a direct division on the subject. Up to so late a period as last week proceeuings had taken place with regard to our relations with the Court of Spain, but in that House they had heard nothing upon the subject of them. It was with the recollection of what passed with regard to Spain that he took the opportunity to refer to another branch of our relations —that was our rela tions with the kingdom of the Two Sicilies. 'then it appeared that the King of the Two Sicilies bad, unfortunately for himself, invited to his Court a diplo matic agent of this country, who had been instru Len tal in fomenting insurrection in Italy, and latterly rebellion in Dome.—(Hear, hear.) His efforts, how ever, were ineffectual in putting out the flame which he had raised, and having made every place too hut for him he came home. The presence of such a nobleman was sure to have its natural effect upon the insurgent party, and an opposite effect upon those who were arrayed against them. What were their re lations with Sicily when these negotiations ceased he did not know, as no official accounts had been furnished. They had, therefore, to rely upon the accounts published in the newspapers. If, in point of fact, Sicily did become an independent nation, it was only right—it was absolutely necessary that the Houses of Parliament should have been in formed of a great change of that description; more especially should the Houses of Parliament have been informed of such a circumstance, since such a course was opposed by the treaty of Vienna. Then, again, the King of the Iwo Sicilies was recognised in the Queen's Speech as the Kiug of Naples; and they had been left to form their conjectures as:to the cause. Subsequently they learned from rumours floating through the town that arms had been perinitwd to be sent by that authority for the supply of the insurrectionists early in the past autumn. Though he (Mr. Baukes) knew that arms bad gone from this country, he did not believe that they had gone ith his cogaizence. He could not believe that a Cabinet Minister, occupying a high position in the councils of his country—he heard, therefore, with surprise the Noble Lord nut only acknowledge that the fact was perfectly true, but that he saw nothing objectionable in it. He must, therefore, at that time, have considered Sicily an independent state, since on no other ground could such conduct be justified. 'there must surely have been a time when he acknowledged the independence of that kingdom. It appeared that the contractor employed by the Sicilian insurrectionists applied to the Ordnance office for armF, because he had not time to get them else. le re. The Ordnance rt fused to comply with his request, an the matter was referred to the Noble Lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Affaire. He die not know what degree of control the Noble Lord possessed over the ordnance department, but of this he was satisfied, that the Ordnance-office would not act without his authority, and that he gave it and did not deny that he had so acted. He could not conceive under what circumstance it could be right to give the high sanction of the authority which the Noble Lord held in the country to the arming of insurgent, against their lawful King, supposing there had been no distinct recog nition, on the part of that King, of the in dependence of the revolted province. There were other circumstances of a painful nature to which he might allude, such as what had been stated positively in that House had been denied in the other, but he would not further advert to that subject. He would merely conclude by making the motion of which he had given notice. He understood there was no objection to the substance of the motion, but he (Mr. Baukes) adhered to the whole stattreent, as he believed it was the only way of eliciting the truth. Lord PALMERSTON said that it was true, as the Honourable Gentleman had stated, that he should have no objection to produce the papers he moved for ; but he felt bound to object to the latter words of the motion, because it implied opinions with respect to the question between the Sicilians and this country which the House was not in a condition to decide upon. He had no objection to the motion for the account of all arms furnished to the Sicilians, but he must object to that part of the motion in which the Hon. Member called the Siciltans insurgents.—(Hear, hear). The Hon. Gentleman had stated that there never was a fitting and proper time to be found to discuss fo reign questions in that House. He must, however, compliment the Hon. and Learned Gentleman on having found out a time which he had thought fitting and pro per—namely, the time when he was perfectly ignorant of the matters that were pending.—(Cries of " Hear, hear," and laughter.) The House was not at the present moment in possession of the documents to correct the fallacies of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. Ho (Lord Palmerston) wholly denied the second assertion of the Honourable and Learned Gentle man. It was true that when discussions were pro posed on matters of intricate foreign negotiations, when those discussions were brought forward at an improper time, that it was the duty of the Government, and he hid invariably adopted that course, to decline entering into a discussion founded upon papers that had not been laid before the House; but he had never declined entering into a discussion founded upon papers that had been laid before the House. Those who wanted to find fault with the Government that adopted such a course were to blame, and not those who really wished for information.—(Hear.) There was a great difference on this subject, as on many others, between the Hon. and Learned Gentleman and himself; he seemed to consider that all persons who took up arms in vindi cation of their rights were insurgents.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Gentleman belonged to the old school, who thought there was a' divine right in kings to govern wrong. The Honourable Gentleman had stigmatised the Sic,ilians as insurgents; he would not go into the question; the Sicilians had bad a constitution for cen turies; the rights they enjoyed under that consti tution had been confirmed by their Sovereign in 1812, when their ancient constitution was remodelled and reformed. At that time their Constitu tion was sanctioned, article by article, by the word of the Sovereign of the day. He (Lord Palmerston) asserted, therefore, that if the Sicilians rose in arms to assert their rights to a constitution, they did so for the purpose of asserting a right that had never been abrogated. Ile could not concur with the Honourable Gentleman in stigmatizing the Sicilians as insurgents.—(Hear, bear.) The Honourable Gentleman had said that the rela tions of this country with Foreign Powers were not in the situation he should wish to see them in.-- (Hear.) He (Lord Palmerston) thought some of the views of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman would lead this country into that condition with Foreign Powers he did not wish to see.—(Hear, hear.) He (Lord Palmerston) denied that the relations of this country with Foreign Powers were in an unsatisfactory state.—(Hear, hear.) He asserted most unhesitatingly that the character of this country stood high with foreign Powers, and that the moral influence of this country —a moral influence founded upon the good sense and en lightened conduct of England—was great among foreign nations. Foreign countries had seen, in the midst of events which had shaken other countries to their very centre—(Hear, hear)—that England had stood un shaken—(Hear, hear)—aud that had given confidence among foreigners in the people and Government of England. Foreign nations felt that the British Govern ment and the British people were fitted and willing to give advice when asks d—(Hear, hear)—and that advice was valued and respected, and not spurned and condemned, as had been asserted by the Hon. and Learned Member. The Hon. and Learned Gentlemen had adverted to the interruption of tse intercourse between this country and Spain, and had complained loudly that no information had been given on the suttject. All he could say was, that the papers on that subject were laid on the table of the House last year; and it nothing had been dune upon the subject, he was not to blame fur it, and the fault lay with the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, and not with the Government.—(Hear.) They might remember that the Hon. Gentleman had a wonderful, but a somewhat defective, and certainly a very short memory.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) The Hen. Gentleman had referred to the mission of Lord Minto to Naples, and had stated that his interference had been essentially mischievous, in provoking the hostility between the King of Naples and his Sicilian subjects. Ho Would again tell him that he was wrong in his facts, as well as in his conclusions.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord left this country on his mission on the 17th Decem ber, and reached Naples on February 6th. He presented his credentials on the 7th of February, and yet the Hon. Gentleman asserts that the disturbances which occurred at Messina were in consequence of the excitement pro duced by Lord Minto's declaration after his arrival in December. —(Hear, hear, from Ru per te of the L 19409 great cheering, and laughter,) Now, with respect to the mission of his Noble Friend, the Hun. Gentleman said 'that the principal object of it was to excite the subjects to rebel against their sovereigns.—(Hear.) Mr. BANKES—I said just the contrary. I said, not that he excited the subjects to rebel, but that such was the effect his acting on his instruction s.—(Hear, hear.) Lord PALMERSTON—The Hon. Gentleman was so much accustomed to produce effects which he never desired that he (Lord Palmerston) was not at all sur prised at his confounding intention with effect on the present occasion. Now, he denied the Hon. Member's assertion with respect to the effects as well as the inten tion. It was not true that any such effects as had been ascribed to them had been produced by the exertions of his Noble Friend. Lord Minto was aware when he went on his mission what was the object of it, and that while his first duty was to procure the fulfilment of the articles of the several treaties his next was to bring the opposing parties into a position of mutual peace and amity.—(Hear, hear.) The honour able Gentleman might as wed say that the missions of his Noble Frier d to Rome in the beginning of last year, was productive of the events which occurred at the be ginning of the present, or rather at the close of last year. —(llear, hear.) Now, ho could tell the House that the interference of Lord Mints was at the express request of the King of Naples, or as the Honourable Genileman wished in strict diplomatic phrase, to designate him, the King of the two Sicilies—that interference was at the ex• press request of the King himself.—(Hear, hear.) Now the Hon. Gentleman misread treaties. He asserts that the title of the King of the Two Sieilies was con ferred by the treaty of Vienna. It was very true that ' by that treaty the Sovereign was empowered to enter upon his donalnien , e Mr. BANKES--With the title of the King of the Two Sicilies.—(Great laughter and cheers from the Opposition, and counter cheers from the Ministerial benches.) Lord PALMERSTON—True with the title of the King of the Two Sicilies, but though King of the Two Sicilies, he was in fact King of Naples, But title did not give a right to territory, and it was just as reasonable to question the justice or the courtesy of any man who used this mode of address as it would he for any one to suppose that because the sovereign of this kingdom was formerly styled King of England and France, he was necessarily entitled to a portion of the territory of that country.—(clear, hear.) Beeides, the right to territory or of title did not give the right to overturn Constitu tions. The title was one thine; the territory was another.—(Hear, let ar.) He regretted that the Hon. Gentleman had not waited until the papers con nected with this subject were laid on the table of the • House. He regretted it especially, because, although it was better for the Hon. Gentleman, it was worse fur the House.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) These papers would disclose that he now might tell him that it was the most earnest desire of her Majesty's Go vernment to continue the friendly relations of this coun try with the kingdoms of the two &eines. That had been the desire of the Government at all times, and never more than during the period when these negotia tions were pending.—(Hear, and cheers.) The desire, indeed, was at all times expressed, and expressed to preserve a perfect union between the Sicilies •and England.—(Hear, hear.) Now, with regard to the papers he had no sort 01 objection to produce them.—(Hear.) Then, with respect to the papers regarding the matter to which the Hon. Member had alluded of the arms which had been supplied to the Sicilian insurgents. The contractor for the supply of arms to her Majesty's Government had sent in a certain number of iron guns. Having a contract also for Sicily that gentleman had applied for leave to take them out of the stores to send them to that Island. He had been applied to by the official authorities on the subject, and he had, with out hesitation, given his assent for that purpose.— (Hear, cheeis, and counter cheers.) But it was done in a moment of inadvertence; and, as such, he stated it. Upon a review of the circumstances, however, and con ceiving that such a proceeding might be offensive at the Court of Naples, her Majesty's Minist e r a t t h at Court had been duly instructed to explain the matter.—(Renewed cheering, and counter cheering.) Let not Hon. Gentlemen suppose that this fact was with out a precedent—(Hear, hear)—or that it was an in variable practice. The Government of France had al ways allowed the sale of arms out of the public stores for any people or kingdom whatever.—(Hear, hear, and cheers, and repeated cheers.) He bad no objection, he repeated, to produce the papers with this alteration in the terms of the motion, that the words after " to the" should be left out, and others substituted, which would prevent the publication of the political portion of the affair.—(Cheers.) Sir J. WALSH said that the Noble Lord had entered upon an unusually discursive course on the present oc casion. But he would rather follow his precept than imitate his example, and confine himself simply to the merits of the case. He did not perceive that the Noble Lord had in any respect answered the observations of his Hon. Friend, nor had he in any way shown that the duty of this country had been fulfilled under the treaties into which we had entered at the Congress of Vienna, and which the mission of Lord Minto had made m ,re difficult than they were, if not impossible. It was simply this —were we neutral in the struggle going on between Naples and Sicily, was the position of Eng land that of a neutral power, and it' so was this transaction inconsistent with the position and character of a neutral power. That was the plain question which was raised by the motion of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Bankes).—(Hear.) It appeared that a contractor applied to 'the Ordnance for some of the Queen's stores, for the purpose of sending those arms to Sicily; that the Ordnance applied to the Noble Lord, and that they received the sanction of the Noble Lord for issuing those arms out of those stores. It did appear to him (Sir J. Walsh) that this veil of the contractor was so transparent and so thin a pretext that it utterly failed. It was impossible to argue, with a perfect knowledge of the facts which the Government seemed to have had of the contractor not concealing the purpose for which he ap plied for those arms, but that it was just as much the act of the Noble Lord and the Government, as if they had directly sent those arms on the applica tion of the Sicilian Government. If there was a difference, there was something unworthy the character of a greet nation in effecting this object by so indirect a means. That was not the whole of this transaction. The Noble Lord had very acutely dwelt at considerable length on those general topics ; but he scarcely adverted to his (Sir J. Walsh's) Honourable Friend's motion. He disposed of it in his light easy flowing strain, in some five or six sen• tences, and then he sat down; but the whole of this transaction was not even now fully before the House of Commons. It appeared there was a reconsideration of this question. The act of the Noble Lord had come more formally before the consideration of the Govern ment—(Hear, hear)—and it appeared that the act of the Noble Lord was not approved of by the ma jority of his colleagues.—(Hear, hear.) His (Sir J. Walsh'e) Hon. Friend had remarked that the House of Commons was almost the only society in which topics relating to foreign affairs were almost tabooed, a subject on which the House was scarcely allowed to enter ; but there was another society in which there was a similar exclusion, and that was the Cabinet. —(Hear, hear.) It appeared the Noble Lord mono polised the whole management of those things without any communication with his colleagues, and that after wards when those subjects were brought on more formally the Government felt it necessary to disavow them ; and their instructions were given by the Government to its Ambassador at Naples that if any explanation was de manded it would be said to the Neapolitan Government, on the part of her Majesty's Government, that such a step was inadvertently taken, and was taken without due regard to the consequences, and taken hastily, and without fully weighing the construction that might be placed upon it. Ho said that was a position which he deeply regretted that this country was placed in. He said those apologies and those retractation for that equivocal and clandestine act struck at the honour and character, and reputation of this great country. He did say, when the Noble Lord dilated in his easy flowing manner on the moral force which England possessed, and on the weight which was naturally attached to her great character in all her diplomatic transactions and proceedings of this kind, underhand in the first place, and disavowed and apologised for in the second, were calculated to weaken and destroy that moral force. That was the real ground, and the very narrow ground on which the question stood. He and his Hun. Friend (Mr. Bankes) did not intend on the present occasion to raise the general question of the politics of Sicily, or to go over the field of Neapolitan and Sicilian affairs. His Hon. Friend made this distinctive motion in order . . to invite the attention of the House to the matter which he had brought before it. Mr. MACGREGOR said, if he had known this ques tion would have been brought under discussion, he would have brought facts and statements to bear upon it, which would have given it a very different complexion. He would say, if the Noble Lord the Se cretary for Foreign Affairs could have been justified in any interference whatever with the affairs of other countries, it would have been in the affairs of Sicily. Ho did not think there had been anything like that interference with which the Noble Lord was charged. He (Mr. Mac gregor knew that country well, and had travelled over many countries called despotic, but in no country did he ever see so many military executions for pre sumptive crimes as in the Island of Sicily. The Sicilians had acted with the greatest harmony, and there was the greatest domestic tranquillity. With respect to what was done either by the English or French Admirais, ho considered it was neither more nor less han two gentlemen walking across a field, and who interfered to prevent a great many people from ill-using a woman and her children. That was what was done at Messina. There never was a greater act of humanity than that done by Sir William Parker with regard to the people of Messina. lie (Mr. M'Gregor) had no hesitation in say ing the Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreing Affairs had done more to preserve the peace of Europe since the beginning of 1848 than any Minister who had ever had the management of foreign affairs in this country. —(Hear, hear.) Ile said that not from ally personal feelings, but merely from his (Mr. Macgregor's) own actual experience and personal knowledge, and his com munications from other countries. Mr. JUAN O'C ONNELL congratulatnd the Noble Lord, the Seer. tary for Foreign Affairs, on the full determination on his own part, and en the part of the Ministry, to recognise the entire right and justice of a nation to demand the government of ita own affairs.—(Laughter.) Ile trusted he should have the benefit of the Noble Lord's support when Ireland made the same appeal.—(Laughter) —for the case would be equally as stroll as that of the Sicilians. The Irish peoplo had advocated their lights by peaceable and constitutional means. He congratulated the Noble Lord on his approximation to better principles.— (Laughtor) Lie 144 onici Oulu wuiuv diviuu ;ight iu Kings. neither was there a di v i ne rig h t i n a Parliament. The Noble Lord also said that country labouring under circumstances of misfortune was not made for sovereigns and Governments to trifle with. Neither, he would add to this, was the Irish nation made for Sovereigns and Governments, and though the people of Ireland had great affection for their Sovereign, they had no attach ment for his Government. The Noble Lord spoke also of an ancient constitution which ought always to be re cognised. He (Mr. O'Connell) would remind the House of the ancient constitution of the land--(a laugh) . —which had endured for 800 years, and which was dis tinctly recognized in 1782 by Parliament, for in the words of an Act which was then passed, it was declared that the rights of the Irish nation had been established for ever.—(Hear, hear.) The ration, how. ever, was deprived of those rights by succ,ssive Parlia ments; but he hoped when he brought the subject more formal!) , u: dt r the consideration of the House he should at least have the support of the Noble Lord.—(" Hear," and laughter) He telt that he ought not to sit down, wtthout saying a word or two as to Lord Minto's peace ful mission.—(L,tighter.) " That mission," said th e Noble Lord, " was one of peace and consolation."—(A laugh.) Well, they had no means of judging what in structions were given to Lord Minto, as they had not seats in the Cabinet, nor had they the paper relating to the matter, but they could at any rate judge of the mission Ly its fruits.—(Hear, hear.) Well, then, they saw him going first to Sicily, and holding secret inter. views with some of her sons, which led to war and op pre sion.—(Hear.) Then, they saw him going to Rome, and tratereising with Alizz'ni and the Prince Canino, and going into a public balcony to salute a riot ous populace. Then they saw him going to Sicily, and there his proceedings had been followed by one of the most disastrous wars which had Liken place in modern times. If this was a mission of peace, he should lik e to know what was a m i ss i on of war.---(Cheers.) After a tew observations from Mr. HENLEY, Mr. HUME was glad to hear that the Noble Lord had emitted that the naval force of England had pre served the peace of Europe, because he trusted when he shout.' propose at an esrly period a reduction in the army and navy, he should have a fair field.—(Hear and laughter.) He gave the Noble Lord full credit for sincerity when he expressed his conviction that England with her moral force had succeeded in securing the peace of Europe, and he hoped the Noole Lord would be prepared at the proper time to support a m ,, tion for a reduction of the forces.—(Loud cries of "Hear, hear.") With regard to this particular qucstiun nu doubt the Noble Lord had asked with the ; best intentions, but he doubted much whether the fat, of a minister high in office stating in another place th the policy of the Noble Lord in reference to Sic had been adopted with the sanction and privity of t Cabinet, was calculated to increase the Noi Lord's own moral influence abroad.—(Cheers.) T Noble Lord's defender h a d ta lk ed about the Noble Lord and his Admiral having interfered from moti vs of humanity; but he for one deprecated the use tf such a justtfleation, because, if they were always o fall back upon motives of humanity in any of our finest arms who fought our battles as so matter of duty might be induced to abacdon us by motives of humanity.—(Hear, and cheers.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL said his Noble Friend (Lord Palmerston) had been accused of going beyond the bounds of the motion, as it he had introduced other subjects besides those directly relating to it, but the fact was that the Hon. Member (Mr. Bankes) who made the motion had alluded to a number of matters which were not strictly betore the House. From point to point of the Hom. Member's statement did his Noble Friend give answers which he (Lord John Russell) thought were en' tirely satisfactory to the House.—(Hear, hear.) Now he was not the only Member who had entered into statements which were entirely irrelevant to the account to which the motion related. Did the House ever hear of a motion of censure with re gard to the acts of a Government brought in under the shape of a motion for an account of a certain number of guns which had been supplied by the Ordnance?— (Hear, hear.) IV as that not a strange mode of censure when the account had not yet been laid before the House, and when the Government were not unwilling to produce it ?—(Hear, hear.) Was it not unallowable to iutroduce a statement of the conduct of the Government with respect to a particular matter when the means of deciding upon it were not in the possession of the House ?—(Hear, hear.) That, in fact, was the whole question at issue and nothing more, but the occasion was so tempting that Hon. Members could not refrain from going into other matters.—(Laughter.) The Hon. Member for Limerick said that was an occa sion to introduce the question of the repeal of the union, and the Hon. Member for Montrose said it was a good opportunity for stating what should be the amount of the estimates, and what reductions should be made.— (Laughter.) The House would see the consequence of that inconvenient proceeding, for instead of moving for an account of the number of guns supplied by the Ord nance, and ending there, statements had been introduced with respect to the kingdom ot the Two Sicilies and our conduct towards it. Among ether misunderstandings upon the question before the House, there appeared to be one with regard to what pasted in another place on the same subject, in substance to the effect that his Noble Friend (Lord Palmerston) had said he maintained that he had done perfectly right. Now, his Hon. Friend said nothing of the kind, and had ofered no opinion upon the subject at the present moment. The lion. Member for Montrose had stated that whatever might be opinion of the other members of the Cabinet they dif fered with the Noble Lord (Lord Palmerston). Nothing of the kind had occurred. The fact was this:—His Noble Friend, some months ago, received an applica tion from the Ordnance-office with respect to the supply of guns, and he then said that he had no objection to assent to arms being given, but it was not thereby intended that that country should be inundated with British arms, nor that this coun try should be demanded of her arms.—(Hear, hear.) lustruetiuns were afterwards given to her Majesty's Minister at Naples to offer an explanation, and to state his regret at %hat had occurred. He did not wish to enter into the merits of the question, nor as to the rights of the King of the Two Sicilia, understood without reference to the papers of the time of the tran'actions of 1812 up to 1816. The papers certainly did not justify the Honourable Gent leman in saying that Lord Minto bad raised the insurrection in the Two Sicilies in January. as ecknowlsdged by that treaty of Vienna—as to the right secured to the people by the assent of the ancient and hereditary Prince of the Two Sicilies in the year 1812. All these matters were of very se rious import, which be thought could net be well by going to Naples in the month of February. Lord Minto went to Naples in February, the King having expressed a wish to communicate with our Ambassador from this country, and Lord Minto, who accepted the office, consider, d that he might be of use to the King in arranging terms between him and the Provisional Government of the two Sicilia. He (Lord J. Russell) was told that no such Government existed, and that Lord Minto was not justified in the course he adopted. The Noble Lord then referred to the establishment of a Provisional Government in Belgium, which he said this country did not hesitate to acknowledge. We replied to the statement of the Hon. Member for Limerick by saying that his statement that the case of Italy was similar to that of Ireland reminded him of a story told by a friend of his, who had travelled in Sicily. A child told him that she would go to England by land, but he said she could not, as Eng• and was an island; but, said the child, Sicily i s an _ island too. (Laughter.) That was the resew ) blance between Ireland and th e T wo Sicilies.—(Hear.' of the Hon. Member had attended to the affairs of Sicily he would have found that the King of Naples was the first King who gave his people a representative Consti tution, and without any foreign advice whatever. -Lord Minto was far from having advised anything democratic. He advised the Sovereigns with whom he was brought into contact, whilst they supported, their independence, to make such reforms as were required by the wants of their people. He (Lord J. Russell) believed that with regard to Italy, as well as to 'lsoter parts of E urope , t h at if such advice as that gi ve n - by Lord Minto in 1848 had been given, and given with success, teensy years before to Austria, Prussia, and Italy, 'he beleived the disasters that had occurred would have been averted. If the Sovereigns of Italy had allowed their people some liberty —if they had good represeue tation—if, in short, they had given some outlet to the intelligence and desire of the peopl. for political power, which, with the progress of know ledge and the existence of peace, had been rendered ab solutely necessary; so far from bloody civil war arising in Europe, they should have been spared the scene of past havoc, and instead of beholding a transition from the most complete and absolute despotism to the most wild and rabid demo cracy. They should have had the introduction of constitutional governments, and would have beheld a better state of things in Europe than existed at the presens moment.—(Cheers.) Mr. URQUHART rose amidst loud cries of " divide." He said the state of things in Sicily was another instance of the mischievous nature of the interference of this country w ith foreign States; and if a similar course were pursued in the future, the name of this country would be brought into contempt in the eyes of the world. Mr. BANKS was quite ready to adopt the engges tions of the Noble Lord, and withdraw the word nn sightly as applied tc the Sicilies, and he would make his motion to the following effect : An account of all Ordnance stores returned from that de department to any contractor, in the year 1848, for the purpose of being sent to the Sicilians, in arms against her Majesty's ally, the King of the Two Sicilies, with the consent of her Majesty' s S ecretary of State for 'oreign Affairs. It the Noble Lord would consent to the motion in that modified shape, there would be no necessity to divide upon it, but if he did not, be must persevere in his motion. Lord PALMERSTON not assenting to the motion as amended, strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the House divided, when there appeared— For the motion ••• ••• Against it ... Majority against the motion The motion was consequently lost. The House adjourned at Six o'clock. ... 39 ... 124 ...-85 MED. At Brisbane-house, Ayrshire, on the 26th ult., Isabella Maria, eldest daughter of General Sir Thomas Macdougall Brisbane, Bart, G.C.8., On the 4th inst., at Darent-villa, Westerham, James Han sard, Esq , aged 68. On the 28th ult., at Stevenage, Hertforshire, Mrs. Aire ton, aged BG. On the 28th ult., aged 84, Jasper Peck, Esq., of Temple Combe, Dorsetshire. 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