The Sun. — London, England, 1849-04-03 00:00:00

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, said he should not meddle with that, but he was surprised to find the Hon. Gentleman opposite recomm-nding the issue of Exchequer -bills. With respect to the army. the navy, and the other great departments, he had lecTt the expenditure of the year as much as possible within the income, and he should not willingly depart from that rule in the case of the new buildings. There should be the fullest information on the subject given to the Howe, but it was to be remembered that there existed certain contracts which could not be broken. Those contracts must be adhered to, but the Government did not intend to enter into any new contracts. Captain BOLDER() wished to take this opportunity of stating that he had, for the last three weeks, been sitting upon a Committee in one of the new Committee rooms, and that they had been so much annoyed b 3 smoke that it had been necessary to have all the win dows open and to sit with their great-coats on—(A laugh) —and the consequence was that he had caught a very severe cold. This nuisance had, however, been in some degree abated; but the ventilation of the Com mittee-rooms was most defective, and must produce at: injurious effect on the health of all persons who were compelled to attend in them. Tho room where the Committee of which he was a member sat was crowded during the day, and on retiring from it, and returning after an absence of five minutes, the 'odour was most offensive—worse than that of bilge water. Mr. GREENE said that the ventillation of the Com raittce-rooms, as well as of both Houses of Parliament, was originally intrusted to Dr. Reed, but by a resolu tion adopted by the Committee some time since it was taken out of his hands and committed to Mr. Barry, who had not yet had an opportunity of completing his arrangements. He (Mr. Greene) had no doubt, how ever, that a great improvement would be effected in the warming and ventilation of the rooms. Mr. EWART stated that in the room in which the Committee on the Insolvent Members' Bill sat it was im possible at one end of the room to hear anything that was said at the other end. Mr. GREENE had been informed that the best mode of preventing reverberation was to paper the walls with floss paper, but the llon. Gentleman might rely upon it that endeavours would be made to remedy the defect to which he had alluded. The vote was agreed to, as was also a vote of 10,0004 towards defraying law charges. On a vote being proposed of 50,0001. towards defray in the charge for consular establishments abroad, Mr. HUME suggested that a considerable reduction might be effected in this department of the public ex penditure. It was formerly the custom, when a Mi nister was sent to a foreign court, that a :Minister of equal rank, and generally with the same allowances, should be accredited to the British Court; but while we had Ministers at some foreign Courts who received the fall allowances, their representatives in this country had only third or fourth•rate salaries. Lord J. RUSSELL :observed that, in consequence of the changes which were at present occurring on the con tinent, it was, impossible to determine what alterations could be made in our consular arrangements. The vote was agreed to, as was also a vote of 50,0001. towards the charge for civil contingencies ; and the House then resumed. RATE IN AID (IRELAND) BILL. The order of the day for the adjourned debate on the second reading of this Bill having been read, Mr. BRIGHT said that, as a member of the Com mittee appointed by that House to inquire into the working of. the Irish poor-law, he had voted in Com mittee for the resolution in favour of the rate in aid; he had also voted with the majority by whom that proposi tion had been supported in that House; and he was pre pared to justify those votes. This appeared to him to be a question of life or money. It was evident from the testimony of witnesses examined before the Com mittee, from the evidence of persons in all parts of Ire land, and from the statements in the public papers, that unless funds were :provided from some source to relieve the distressed unions in Ireland, tens of thousands of their fellow-countrymen in that part of the United Kingdom must perish. He was not prepared to justify a rate in aid merely on the ground of its necessity, be cause it might be justly contended that the same amount of money might be raised by same other mode ; but he would justify the restricting of this rate to Ireland on the ground that during the last three years the rest of the United Kingdom had paid a rate in aid for Ireland to a greater amount than the rateable property of Ire land was now called upon to contribute. Within the last two or three years 8,000,0001. or 10,000,0001. had been given to Ireland from the revenues of the United Kingdom ; a very large private subscription had been entered into, the British Association having alone expended 600,000/. ; and by far the larger proportion of this amount (although Irishmen had supplied some portion of the funds) was contributed by the tax-paying classes of Great Britain, in addition to the heavy local taxes which had been thrown upon them for the support of Irish pauper immigrants into this country. In the city parish of Glasgow the poor-rates lastyear amounted to 70,0001., and it was estimated that two-thirds of this amount were required for the support of Irish paupers, many of whom had been brought over as deck passengers by steamers from the Irish ports. In Manchester, the amount required in 1848, for the relief of the settled poor, including those Irish paupers who had lived in the borough long enough to obtain a settlement, was 37,847/.; the amount for unsettled English casual poor was 18,6991, and for unsettled Irish casual poor, 28,0071. It was calculated that this expenditure of 28,0001. was equal to a rate of loid. in the pound on the whole rate able property in Manchester; but if they took only that portion of the property which paid the poor-rate, exclud ing the property on which that rate was remitted, the rate for the support of Irish casual poor would be not less than from ls. 3d. to Is. 6d. in the pound. —(Hear, hear.) Last year, the cost of maintaining the Irish casual poor brought a burden of more than 2s. Id. per head upon the whole population of that great community; and it must be remembered that Manches ter was, at the time, suffering from great depression of trade, caused by the high price of cotton, the panic of 1847, and the political convulsions on the continent of Europe. To show the great increase of the amount re quired in Manchester for the relief of the Irish casual poor, ho might state that in 1845 it was 3,4001.; in 1846, 3,2001.; in 1847, 6,5001.; and 1848, 28,007/. Now, the people of Manchester had not made clamorous com plaints against this heavy charge; but they did wish Hon. Gentlemen opposite to see that they—in common with other large towns, by whom the same burden had to a greater or less extent been borne—had already paid their share of the rate in aid for Ireland over and over again; and they did think that, under these cir cumstances, it became the property of Ireland to find, for a temporary period, the comparatively small sum which the Government proposed to levy upon that country.--(Hear.) The Hon. Member for Londonderry (Captain Bateson) had complained on Friday night of the tyrannical conduct of those who called upon the op pressed proprietors of Ulster to pay this rate; but he (Mr. Bright) found that the value of the rateable pro perty of Ulster was about 3,000,0001., and the sum that county would be called upon to contribute to the rate in aid would be about 82,0001. a year. For his own part, had he been an Ulster proprietor, he would not have raised his voice against this proposition, for the Ulster proprietors were only called upon to do what had been already done by others.—(Hear, hear.) It had been said that Mr. Twisleton had resigned his office of Poor law Commissioner rather than carry out this rate in aid. Now, the reason assigned by Mr. Twisleton to the com mittee for his resignation was not that the system could not be worked, but that Ulster was Ulster—that it was much more Ulster than Ireland—that Ulster did not wish to be put together with Munster, Connaught, and Leinster; but that it wished to be consi dered a portion of Great Britain rather than a portion of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that if, by this Bill, they succeeded in making Ulster really a portion of Ireland, a very happy result would be effected. The Members of that House, and her Majesty's Ministers had been charged with misgoverning Ireland, but he would remind lion. Gentlemen who made this charge that the course taken by Parliament with regard to Ire land for the last 100 years had been almost universally in accordance with the wishes of the landed proprietors of that country. The landed proprietors of Ireland, and especially of the north of Ireland, had had great power in that House, and their advice had been too frequently acted upon by the Government- He considered that the political course taken by the people of Ulster had been most fatal to the interests of Ireland ; they had bought Protestant ascendancy, and the price they had paid for it had been the degradation and ruin of their country.—(Hear.) He did not consider that it would be advisable to substitute an income-tax for the rate in aid. There were many Noble Lords and others residing in this country who already paid income-tax upon their Irish property, so that if the income-tax were applied to Ireland, no extra burden would be thrown upon such persons. In this case, as in others, whatever proposition was made . was sure to be the plan that was disliked; and he had no doubt if the Government had proposed an in come-tax for Ireland it would have excited quite as much hostility as the rate in aid.—(llear.) The conclu sion to which he (Mr. Bright) came was either that the malady of Ireland was incurable, or that there was a lamentable-lark of statesmanship in that House. Com prehensive 'schemes had been ridiculed, and deservedly in some respects, for they always came from the opposite (the Opposition) side of the table. The Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) when ho was in opposition, had suggested com prehensive schemes, and he (Mr. Bright) had wished to see that Noble Lord in office that he might have an opportunity Of proposing ',those schemes. He supposed, however, that the Noble Lord now found insuperable difficulties in the way of doing so. The Right Hon. Baronet op posite (Sir Robert Peel) had proposed another scheme somewhat vaguely, but if the , Right Hon. Gentleman could put it in shape and work it out for the regenera tion of Ireland, he (Mr. Bright) believed the universal feeling of the House would be, that he should cross to the Ministerial side and try his hand. He (Mr. Bright) had great doubt whether the Noble Lord now at the head of th e G overnment would object to change places any Memb er o f t h at House who would take in handlth and really se t t l e t h e Irish question.—(Hear, near, from Lord John Russell, and a laugh.) The re medies for Ireland had hitherto been ,force and alms. They had had 50 000 armed men in Ir e l an d t o k eep t h e peace, whil e on the other han 1 l a r ge vo t es o f money poets hadsai d had been ma tokeep the p eop l e al i ve. One of our de " The civil power may snore at ease, While soldiers fight to keep the peace." And he suspected that Governments had ben far too much disposed to rely upon the they could main tain in Ireland by the means at their disposal by that House, instead of grapplingliceourageously with the real difficulties of the question. suspected that the Noble Lord at the head of the ?overnment did not con template any policy of that kind, or he would have stated it to the House. He (Mr. Bright) considered it a gross delusion to suppose that they could regenerat Ireland by a poor-law or by a rate in aid. A poor-late added pauperism, because it was constantly inViting to idlenests! it dragged down those who paid rates, and demoralized those who received them. In order to apely a remedy to Ireland, they should know what was the matter with that country. He might say, as a general proposition, that in Ireland nobody worked .—( s', laugh. ) lie d d not mean that many persons might not be industriously fol lowing their occupations, but there was a general—an almost universal—absence of labour; there was a want of employment and wages. He mat some time since with an Irishman working as a navigator, and he asked him how it was that his countrymen did nut work in their own country as they did in this? His reply was, " Give us 2s. Bd. a day, and you'll see whether we would work."—(Hear, hear.) This was the great evil; there was in Ireland a lamentable want of employment, and consequently an extensive forced idlenes s s. He might mention to the House a fact which had come under his observation, as showing the general poverty of Ireland. He found that the legacy duty paid upon personal pro perty in Great! , Britain in 1844 was upwards of 44,000,0001. The sum paid in Ireland in 1845 was only 2,140,0001. So that, although the population of Ireland was nearly half that of Great Britain, it paid only one twentieth the amount of legacy duty. Ile found, also, that although Ireland possessed a population three times greater than that of Scotland, the legacy duty paid by Ireland in 1844 was little more than two thirds the amount paid by Scotland. The re ports of the inspectors to which the Right Hon. Member fur Tamworth had referred gave a lamentable picture of the condition of Ireland. That unfortunate country was in a state of ruin and disorganization which it was almost impossible to describe. Ireland possessed capitaleo a,considerable but still to a deficient extent ; but the land was held under circumstances which made it impossible that labour should be applied to it, and that productiveness should result. The raw material of the existence of the people was tied up. The legal en actments with regard to land made it a practical mono poly, which crushed not only the public, but also the landowners, for whose especial benefit that menopely was supposed to exist.—(Hear, hear.) Why, he would ask, should land be tied up more than any other raw material ? They had a political system based on terri torial influences, and therefore the House feared to touch the question of land, because it was apprehensive of interfering with political considerations. He did not see why political considerations should intervene in dealing with questions connected with land more than in dealing with questions connected with cotton, and he believed that nothing was more prejudicing England as well as Ireland than the absurd and monstrous system under which landed property in both countries was held. One difficulty in dealing with land was that arising out of defective titles, which was not easy to be got over so long as the present system of entails was maintained. However, it was a difficulty which the House might overcome, and to which its early attention ought to be turned. He would next advert to the question of settlements. He was not about to say that settlements should be pre vented by law, and that a man should not be able to make special provision for various members of his family but there was in the system of strict settlement bound up under the system of entail that which was productive of immense evil to land and of discord and litigation in families. The practice brought about a constant acces sion of incumbrances of one kind or another, until the largest property, together with the family interests, be came bankrupt under a load from which they could not escape. Irish gentlemen were suffering also from ano ther cause. They had been peculiarly extravagant. It was said that they kept more horses and dogs than were usually kept by persons of the same means in England. how, he had no objection to their spending money as they pleased, but if they did spend it they could not expect to have it too; and they could not expect that Parliament was always to step in and relieve them from difficulties.—(Hear, hear.) If the young gentlemen in Ireland, instead of remaining in the unen viable state of waiting for a commission, were to get rid of a little of the pride of family and of ancestry and ap ply themselves to business or some honest occupation, in which they would have an opportunity of raising them selves by their talents, it would be much better for the country, and their positions would be less humiliating than at present. Another evil in Ireland arose out of the great number of persons having only a life interest in the property which they held. They could not sell the property, and they had no motive to improve the value of the land, as any expenditure for that purpose might only be remunerative after their interest had expired. Thus the raw material was bound up and labour left un employed; and the result was that widely prevailing poverty now complained of. As population and pauper ism inc: e se 1 , the landlords, through the means of evict rnents and ejectments endeavoured, as by a convulsive effort, to rid themselves of the evils by which they were surrounded; and hence arose a social war, and that inse curity to life and property which had so extensively pre vailed. What was the remedy for this state of things? The Noble Lord at the head of the Government pro posed no plan, and neither had he nor any other Member of the Administration made any speech in the course of the session from which any en larged scheme of policy might be hoped for in the pre sent session, or early next session. He thought the Noble Lord had not acted wisely in not paying more im mediate attention to the question as to what should be done in future for the population of Ireland. The Right Hon. Member for Tamworth had proposed a plan, which he sums time before hinted at, to the surprise of every body, and to the delight of not a few. On Friday last the Right Hon. Baronet explained his plan with some what more distinctness, but he (Mr. Bright) doubted whether it was in that state that it could be laid before the House in that detailed shape requisite previous to its adoption. He admired the end which the Right Hon. Baronet said he had in view, and some portion of the means by which he would carry it out, but lie confessed with reluctance that it appeared to his mind at present in an impracticable form. He only trusted that Irish men would not suppose that everything was to be set right in their country by a commission, or they would be clinging more than ever to a remnant of property in bankrupt estates, and feel greater hesitation to take steps in the direction in which the Right Hon. Baronet wished them to proceed. The Right Hon. Baronet said he did not desire the transfer of property to take place by individual barter, or that the matter should proceed in its natural course, by which land should become unnaturally cheap. Now, he should like to know whether a man would go to Ireland to buy land unless the cheapness compensated for all the other disadvantages to be met with there? There could be no redemption for Ireland by a transfer of land unless by land taking its natural course, and becoming so cheap that capitalists in England, Scotland, and Ireland would seize it with all its disadvantages.—(lronical cries of " Hear.") By seizing it he meant that they would seize with avidity in that case; as in others, a favour able opportunity of investing their capital. He believed that much Irish capital would go to the south and west of Ireland to be invested in land if the measures which were proposed, and the ends which the Right Hon. Baronet had in view, were facilitated by that House.— The Hon. Member here alluded to the distressed state of Stockport in 1842, observing that property in that place was then depreciated to a lamentable extent, and that many thousands of persons left the town. About half the manufacturers failed, and property changed hands, pass ing into the possession of persons of more substantial means. This transfer of property was no doubt a painful process, but it must be submitted to under such circum stances; and he thought that in the present state of Ire land it was the duty of the House not to interfere with the ordinary and natural course of things. What he wanted was, that Parliament should remove every ob stacle to the free sale of land ; and therein lay the only security to be had for the restoration to prosperity of the present distressed districts in Ireland. The question of a Parliamentary title was most important, but he had been informed by a legal authority that the difficulty therein arose from entails to persons beyond those now living. Another matter requiring alteration related to intestate estates. He did not want a change of the law of primogeniture, so that there should be a subdivision of property here, as in France. It a man chose to act ab surdly, and leave all his property to one child out of many, he would not interfere to prevent him by law ; but, where a man died without making a will, it was the duty of Parliament to enact that the property left should be divided equally among the heirs.—(Hear.) If the system of leaving the property to the eldest sou were followed out among the middle classes, and in regard to personal property, it would lead to speedy confusion.— (Hear.) Although the alteration of the law which he (Mr. Bright) desired to see would not in itself destroy the practice, Parliament would cease to give its sanction to it, and gradually the owners of property would form a more just appreciation of their duty as testators.— (Hear, hear.) With regard to the owners of life in terests, they ought to have power to grant leases, not at low rents in consideration of great fines, bat upon such terms as would not defraud their successors; and they should be allowed to charge the estate with sums ex pended in really beneficial improvements.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to a registry of deeds, we had the Ordnance survey already, and it had been estimated that the ne cessary survey for a perfect registry would cost but about 9d. an acre, and to engrave the plat's could be no great addition to that cost; while, besides the advantage to the public, it was considered, and had been so stated might r d i d glihi t tn o e btehyee years' er v ad a:l u u c e epdn o r f nfh t o h ar e s e. l s a o n ra d Teh b e y y by Mr. Senior, he believed, that a regi s t r y wou ld tn, much as eight p an d d uti i e n s, too, fant a s ears t s a every facility given for letting land got from insol vent hands into those that might use it profitably. Then as to the waste lands of Ireland, the Government might take them at a valu at i on and divide them into moderate of esta the United tes, which would tempt ( purchasersfrom various parts Kingdom.—liear, ear.) These appeared to be the only means of at tracting capital tolreland. How could the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) expect to do that by fixing a maximum rate? Why, there was a time when there was no rate, and that did not attract capital.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) spoke about emigration. His remarks on vo luntary emigration seemed rather unwise; thing s that were done voluntarily were not always done well, neither were things that were done by the Government.—(Hear, hear.) But what was the relation of population to the i land of Ireland? In the reports on t h e tablet was stated with regard to Clifdeu , thut the resour ces of the union, if made available, would be amply sufficient for the support of its population.—(Heat hear.) Mr. Ha milton said the same of Donegal and Glenties, if culti vated according to the average of English counties; and Mr. Twisleton considered that the land of Ireland would maintain twice its present population.—(Hear, hear.) It cost a good deal to send a family to Australia or Canada; why not employ the money at home?—(Hear, hear.) Let it not be said that be (Mr. Bright) was proposing schemes which would be a great interterence with the rights of property. There could not be a greater inter ference with the true rights of property than the laws now regulating real estate; and in the districts to which the Right Hon. Baronet referred the property in labour of 4,000,000 of people was almost totally destroyed. But let the landlords of Ireland say whether the state in which they 1 1 4c1 been living was not worse than Anything - let it be said that he he proposes?—(Haar, hoer.) IN ea '-arial influence. would injure aristocratical and ter.i.- 1 What What were these worth now?—(Hear, hca,., n e t was Ireland itself worth ?—(Hear, hear.) Was re to the whole world the symbol and token of our dis grace—(Hear, hear)—and to an overtaxed people the source of amazing expense?—(Hear, hear.) Or was it said that we should weaken the union? Why, there had been no honest attenept yet to make a union with Ire lard; we had bad a union with Ulster, but never with the whole of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Surely, if ever there was a great opportunity for a statesman, it was the pre sent.—(Loud cheers.) This was undoubtedly " the hour" and we wanted "the man."—(llcar, hear.) The Noble Lord at the head of the Government had done many things for bis country, and had shown upon some occasions as much courage as in the state of public opinion it was necessary for a statesman to show ; but on this Irish gen stion he seemed to shrink from fairly meeting the ditliculty.—(Hear, hear.) Yet the charac ter of his' Government was at stake; ho could not in his position—be he as well intentioned as he might—defend himself to his country, to the world, to posterity, if he remained at the head of this Imperi4l Le gislature and still was unable or un illing to bring forward measures for the recovery of Ireland.—(lltar, hear.) The Noble Lard at the head of the Administration of affairs in Ireland, too, must re collect, that it was nut the highest effort of statesman ship to keep the peace in a country where very few men were anxious to go to war, and when he had 50,000 armed men, and the whole power of this kingdom to back him—(Hear, hear)—if that distinguished nobleman intended to be known as a statesman with regard to his rule in Ireland, he must be prepared with measures of a much more practical and directly operative character than any he had yet initiated.—(Hear, hear.) Let that great subscription be remembered which was raised three years ago for Ireland, when there came funds from the uttermost parts of the earth—from the Pope and the Grand Signior, from Red Indians in North America, and from slaves in Carolina; what could we say to all those contributors, who must be anxious to know whe ther anything had been done to prevent the recurrence of such a calamity ?—(Hear.) We must acknowledge to them that our boasted constitution utterly failed to grapple with this question. Talk not of our country hav ing had peace while so many thrones in Europe bad been overturned; tell up all the lives lost by the convulsions of the past year in Europe, the cessation of trade, the ruin of industry, the breaking of hopes and of hearts, and it could not be compared for an instant with the agonies that had been endured by our own population under our glorious constitution."—(Hear, hear.) Let us beware of laying the calamity at the door of " Pro vidence." The promises of God were not withdrawn; there was still sunshine and shower, seed time and bar vest; the affluent bosom of the earth yet offered suste nance for man. But man must do his part.—(Hear.) We must do ours.—(Hear, hear.) We must abandon the errors and the crimes of our past legislation. We must free the land—(Hear, hear)—and we should find that it was upon industry, hopeful and remunerative, free and inviolate, that we must build, as on a sure foundation, a permanent edifice of union and peace.— (Much cheering.) The Marques of GRANBY concurred in much of what had been advanced in the very able speech to which the House had just been listening. (Hear, hear.) The Government had neither come forward with a great and consuehensive scheme upon their own responsi bility, nor waited for the report of the committee, but had proposed a temporary p a lliative, whose effects, it might be feared, would be lasting.—(Hear.) The cases of England and Ireland were not at all simi lar, as had been alleged. If the rate in-aid were levied in England it would be raised on all property; but such was not the case in Ireland. Another case was, that in England the arrears of poor-rate were merely leviable upon a tenant for the time of his occupancy, whereas in Ireland the tenant was liable for all the arrears of rate, no matter for how long a time they had accumulated. He would now say one word on that most im portant point, the valuation on which it was proposed to charge this rate. Suppose a farm was valued at 1001. and let for the same sum, the amount charged would be Si,, of which the landlord would pay one half and the tenant the other. So far the arrangement. was perfectly fair.. But suppose that, instead of 1001., the farm was valued at 50/., his rent remaining the same; there would still be 51. payable for the poor rate, or 2s. in the pound. The farmer would deduct ls a pound from his rent of 100/„ ane thus the landlord would have to pay the whole instead of one-half of the poor -rate. Reverse the process, and then the farmer would be the sufferer. The present valuation was most unequal; and Mr. Griffiths had stated that a true valuation would not be made out till the end of 1851, the very period when the rate in aid was to cease.— (Hear, hear.) He regretted that government intended to make no effectual improvement in the Irish poor law, and that they would not consent to the only change that would make the rate in aid palateable— viz , a diminution of the area of taxation. The Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) imagined that such a diminution would increase the number of evictions; but it had been clearly shown that it would rather lessen the number of evictions. Equally erroneous was the idea that it would tend to reduce the people to a state of serfdom. He had, however, no hesitation in saying, that call him by what name they pleased, the man who was employed at labour in the open air was an infi nitely superior and more elevated and enlightened being than the man who was shut up within the tour walls of a workhouse. He was surprised at the tone and manner in which the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tam worth referred to the law of 1816. It was a strange boast to make that in consequence of that law the Go vernment had bean enabled to keep body and soul toge ther of 100,000 people. If they had passed the measure proposed by his late lamented friend (Lord G. Bentinck) for encouraging railways, they would not have had to keep body and soul together of 100,000 starving wretches. On the very day the Right Hon. Baronet made his speech a letter was written from Dublin containing a most deplorable account of the progress of destitution throughout certain portions of Connaught. (The Noble Lord then read a letter of a Dublin correspondent, in which a gentleman named Hines, writing from New port, stated, on the authority of a person officially con nected with the district, that fully 1,000 lives must be lost by starvation within the coming month.) The only advantage, as it appeared to him, which had been derived from the repeal of the Bill of 1846 was the importation of Indian meal free of duty; but would it not have been a wiser course for the Government. when the crisis ar rived, to have abolished the 10s. duty on Indian meal, and have maintained the duty on every other descrip tion of grain? He agreed that it was essentially neces sary that a cereal crop should be substituted for the cul tivation of the potato, but that could only be done by converting small cottiers into farm labourers. But how could they expect those labourers to be employed unless remunerating prices were secured to the cultiv,ator? The Noble Lord concluded by saying, that ho could not support the plan of her Majesty's Government, as he considered it both impolitic and unjust, and that if it were passed into a law it would reduce the whole people of Ireland to one universal level of misery and degradation. Mr. C. FORTESCUE felt it his duty to vote against the measure of her Majesty's Government. He ad mitted that Ireland ought at this juncture to make very extraordinary efforts, but he wished those eff irts to be made by means of another species of tax. He was de sirous to see an income-tax imposed upon Ireland for Irish purposes, and bearing upon every description of Irish property. This rate in aid was partial, and there fore unjust, as it would fall •i one class of persons only. Some Hon. Gentlemen, however, in opposing this mea sure, had taken up a principle for the occasion which they might hereafter (find to be very inconvenient. They had argued that there should be an entire fusion and assimilation of Ireland with England. This was a principle against which he must protest. He could not help thinking that they ought to rid themselves of a poor law and a poor-rate altogether. He looktd upon this as a great national emergency, in which the possessors of all kinds of property ought to be called upon to exert them selves. Suppose a foreign enemy were threatening Ireland at this moment the House would not think of calling upon the possessors of one kind of property alone to supply the funds necessary to meet that emergency. They would adopt an income-tax.—(Hear, hear.) But it was said that if the Government had proposed an in come-tax in place of a rate in aid, it would have met with as bad a reception as the present proposal. He did not agree in that. He did not mean to say it would have been received with acclamation either in Ireland or in that House ; but he thought it would been felt to have much more fairness about it than the proposal of a rate in aid.—(Hear, hear.) It had also been said that a rate in aid would be much easier collected than an income tax, inasmuch as no new machinery would need to be created. But as they were told that sooner or later they would be saddled with an income-tax, he did not see why they should not have anticipated that necessity, and have imposed it now. With respect to the rate in aid being more easily collected, he imagined that if the Go vernment had introduced the measure under that belief they must, by this time, have found out their mistake.— (Hear, hear.) For those reasons he would give his vote against the proposition of the Government. - When the lion. Gentleman resumed his seat some amusement was created by the fact of about a score of Members rising simultaneously with the view of fol lowing him in the debate. The Speaker, however, called upon Mr. DISRAELI, who said that the Hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Bright), in a speech which—although he agreed as little with the Hon. Gentleman as probably any Member in that House—he bad listened to with the greatest pleasure and gratification, as he must do to every demonstration of intellect which sustained the reputation of that assembly—(Cheers)—had described the session of Parliament for this year as an adjourned debate upon the subject of the affairs of Ireland. It was bin (Mr. Disraeli's) wish, before the House adjourned, to nn s .g u i e n e g e D ed, if tuhreiinrgdet possible, hliebe r in various atrioi terminating onus s t discussions sc someu ssi onptshr practical idebate,which conclu sbriion. Hon. Gentleman referred, and in which he (Mr. Disraeli) and the friends with whom be had the pleasure to co-operate had been obliged perhaps too frequently to interfere, they had on every occasion, when they had ben forced to criticise the propositions of Government, told them they were ready to agree to any arrangement that was necessary from the circumstances in which they were called upon to vote; but what they demanded as a principle, indeed a primary condition was, that the Go vernment should come forward and give some assurance to the House and the country that their temporary pro posals were not to be continued for ev er .—(H ear.) How was that movement received by th e G overnment and by individuals very justly influential in that House? The Government persisted for a long time in the course w i t h sion. to Thep come down I.d'spiwstnedtoththae A that House of Commons and make a proposition for a itw h w i e as n th o e t y on or ly i n a t necessary eAl the b s u e t s i c grant of public money which, even upon their own showing, could only meet the exigencies of the occasion for a very brief period.—(Hear, hear.) When there fell from the lips of a Right lion. Gentleman eminent in the enentry and justly influential in that H :tr o et u o s p,t e ,i ,. ti7h m rae p t a s : u i v e ci d h. ensition should be accompanied by a comprehensive a prop ech was the reception . which the intimation measure, ee ezesvernment that even the Right Hon. received from ,- -the Member for Ripon (Sir James Gentleman himself— eerde to recoil from the too Graham)—seemed after . ; i 'PO det. When catching f hazardous rere t h e lipsus use of of thetha that li great citou s masts., said he could not assent to the propolis. , h e ;o ( a M o r. f Disraeli) G e verb . li went comprehensive p a r g e h ra e n a t a i o v e f s m o e , 0a measure with unlessr respect w e we R h - u se ea . uses H o f 0 n d o i s u t r u a r b b i a o n c eG Gentleman t d l e ma n .Ie m w h h e i r c h dent worth to (Sir al and ßoh ert recognised reei measures. That threw out a sneer against comprehensive . ra T il o h l h a to t iel l e : o i i g na n dfl t ahe i on l Hon. Gentleman warned e e d n histtlheomg house ut sability brought htiiltithat yt i it was fai t s h g e e rades easy s t c t u oe s x : i t ai o lei n t rboyse mans, the ftobre 170 1a u gm se t. ' IC! . berexppreechteendsitYroemm measures, firm, 0, 1; tuai colossal they yiseawgk were receswti obstinate.b h a o s s . v l T it h t I eeThw. They were Go vernment prepared were t not o et aonlyThe il their proposition and to renew it, if necessary, every fortnight. But what had beenthe result had come forward with a proposition which affected to d comprehensive, and the fate of which they were call' h . and how ineffectual would be its results, the ready critic, proposal,upon to decide and to a t h h e a w t night—when, t — Ea e w a h b e i n t , wasaisf in a o dwarf conception,t e the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth, came forward hi. and capped their climax with a suggestion ot. l in troduced n ' s o vast and element ia tco character, multitudinous atrhaee t thater, debate and i of a interesting an an ew d important G b e y ntle it m s he (Mr. Disraeli) and his friends in the adop tion, of thed epithet to which he had referred. — (Hear , hear.) With reference to the proposition of a rate in aid , the point for anintthreod Memberuction, for had ßip ju e s ti justified the the t which use, had e right at e Hon. least, ,most ae the House to consider was whether that was an adequate proposition. frem th e papers I on It would thb appear, table, what was popularly called the distressed unions , for t h e maintenance of the poor during one year, was not less if th a h t e the expenditure ri right, of ht, than 540,0001., leaving a debt of upwards of 120,0001. in addition. It was proposed in the present Bill to raise, by means of a rate in aid, throughout all Ireland a sum which, he understood, was calculated to amount to 320,000/. Now to him it appeared that that proposition was essentially inadequate.—(Hear, hear.) If it pro duced any effect the proposition must be more than it expressed.—(Hear, hear.) Here were the distressed unions—he took, of course, only the twenty-one unions which had been referred to—he did not refer to the unions over which was impending a doom as terrible ; but here were twenty-one distressed unions which had expended in one year at least 240,0001. more than they had obtained from the rates which had been struck, and which had besides increased their debt considerably above 100,000/. Well, generally speaking, the fruit of a rate in aid would hardly be able to supply the deficiency incurred in those distressed unions when the state of Ireland was probably not so severe as at the present moment. It appeared, then, on a general glance, that this proposition of Government, if it meant nothing more than a 6d. rate in aid over the whole of Ireland, was an inadequate proposition.— (Hear, hear.) But there might be other objections to the proposition besides being inadequate. It might be an impolitic proposition, and he thought eiCwas so.— (Hear, hear.) lie thought that a measure which had been introduced to renovate the land of a country which suffered from a deficiency of capital, and which com menced by forcibly reducing that capital—(Hesir, hear) —could scarcely be called a wise measure—that a measure which in a country where all acknowledged .here ought to - be a stimulus given to self•exertion, reduced the excitement to self-exertion, could scarcely be called a discreet measure (Hear, hear)—that a measure which without encountering the difficulties which they themselves felt, or dealing with the remedies which others suggested, sought, or if it did not seek, tended to aggravate the burdens on property, could scarcely be described as a measure conceived in a states- - manlike spirit—that a measure which declared that Ire land was to be considered in a different spirit from any other part of the United Kingdom—he said that a mea sure of that kind could hardly be described i n th e present day as being characterised by profound saga city.—(Hear, hear.) He agreed with the liOnourable Gentleman who had just addressed the House with so much ability, that there was a difference between Eng land and Ireland. But they must never recognise it as an imperial difficulty. A county in Ireland might differ in condition from a county in England ; who doubted it ? All they could do was, by constitutional laws, to lay down great general principles, which all must recog nise, to which all must adhere, and by which all must b.: influenced. But in different portions of an an cient empire groat diversity of circumstance must occur. The tenure of land was different, as between Mid dlesex and Kent. Did the existence of gavelkind afford any reason why a different general policy should be ap plied to Middlesex than was applied to Kent? And so with respect to Ireland. There might be difference be tween the two countries; there might be geographical differences; there might be difference from geographical association. But if they mulcted the man of Kent in a tax to which the man of Middlesex was not liable, what sort of answer would it he to his remonstrance were they to remind him that his tenure was different—that he bore on his banner the white horse of Hengist, that the associations of their history were different, and that the system of their taxation could not be the same?— (Hear, hear.) The proposition before the House was a proposition which, historically, was inadequate; which, was tive n i l( t d; i i c in , ietoa w rtv h ; ca a hos t e a h r e o m olstt wasobje c a t a rad er i t o t i a w l a l y s , a t h d a e t e i e t p politically, was indiscreet. And if it w e re inadequate pni and 1 nation ii i tli s po o i on m i z i e l :. oi — o ou l b a tr n ih a u ti t o e n . _al(Hraetaer,thoeawr.h)ichHtehwe hole they go to th a t d eso l ate Connaught wh i c h cou ld these raiseae local its rates t — r i b ( national one? It was not a national rate, because a great a t I t i e b a b r a , , h e a a b r d ) — a w a h i l i c h b a c o u i l t d t n o o t p r a a y i s e a portion of the nation would not contribute to it, and es pecially that portion which was to be benefited.—(Hear, hear.) He knew there were gentlemen, and gentlemen representing English constituencies, wbo were little in clined to take the vi ew h o had been led on reflection to take. They thought th ere was a local interest at sta k e; that, tt oh the contribute m after e a s a re all, a t no t d h i at s hb l w e b a ug s ne a tn n ewr l ha r il i e s hn h el s or q ee u si sa a ib b t id b e l s e s h. with ltdh r ob e e y e p mf e ap e r t iera t e o d? They make a mistake.—(H ear , hear.) — lice ryas totally against considering th e question in so limited a light. If, as he thought, there was a shortsighted, and not a magnificent feeling, on the part of the mere English mem bers, that Ireland should be made to contribute what after all could not be a very considerable amount with reference to the exigency that existed, in what position did they, by adopting a Government measure, place themselves with the country and their constituencies, regarding it merely from an English point of view? It was called a vote of 100,000/, on the security of a law which might never be put in execution.— (Hear, hear.) 100,0001. were to come Irons the English Exchequer; what compensation they were to receive for it was a problem yet to be solved. But he would not dwell on the points. He wanted to show the Members representing English constituencies that the proposition of the Government was not only inadequate, impolitic, and illusory, but also unjust,—(Hear, hear)—and that if they assisted in the accomplishment of the injustice it would perpetrate, they would in fact be warring against their own interests and taking a course which hereafter they might have cause bitterly to repent.—(Hear, hear.) Some short time back he had called the attention of the House to the burdens on land in England. Whatever merit any proposition he made might have, the accuracy of the facts could not be disputed. None could deny that from the coarse and uncivilised system of taxation which had always seized on landed property taxes to a remark able degree had been laid on the real property of Eng. land. What were they going to do now? At a moment of unprecedented difficulty and unparalleled trial, when every man felt himself called on to make remarkable sacrifices, what what was the gist of this statesmanlike proposition? That the property which ba d alread y borne the brunt should incur fresh sacri fices. Was it to gratify some petty pique that English Members sup ported such a proposition? Was it for their interest or for the interest of the country that they should Salleti3ll by their votes to-night so dangerous a system, and so perilous a precedent?—(Hear, hear.) Ought they not rather to declare in language which could not be mis taken that the system of peculiar burdens on the agri cultural interest, either in England or Ireland, .was no longer to be tolerated?—(Hear, hear.) Those were briefly the reasons why he opposed the Bill on the table. The lion. Member for Manchester (Mr. Bright) had reminded the House that the Right lion. Member for Tamworth (Sir R. Peel) had taken that opportunity, not merely of expressing his opinion of the proposition of Government, but of expressing opinions of his own on the general policy which ought to be pursued with respect to Ireland. Considering only the great repute- , tion and position of that Right Honorable Gentleman, he (Mr. Disraeli) would receive with the greatest deference any communication the Right Hon. Gentlethan might make to the House on so interesting a subject. But considering the position of the United Kingdom, and the perilous state of Ireland, considering that the House of Commons, after sitting two months, mei about to ad journ for no inconsiderable period, without having de cided a single point, or carried a single measure except the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act—(Cheers)—he thought it would bo a mockery to argue the proposi• tion before the House without reference to the opinions expressed by so considerable an authority in so ample and frank a manner. Whatever might be the general opinion with respect to that exposition of a distinguished statesman, it must be conceded that after that expres sion of opinion, it was impossible that anything more should be heard in that House of the laisserfaire system.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Disraeli) remembered some two years !ago, when one whose loss he always lamented, but never more than when the con dition of Ireland was brought under the consideration of the House—(Hear)—that having risen hastily to support that measure, which the future proved to be so saga cious and statesmanlike on the part of Lord G. Bentinck —he had said that in dealing with Ireland commercial principles were not sufficient—(Hear, hear)—that there were circumstances in Ireland of a political nature with which political principles could alone cope; and that, in stimulating private enterprise, they might in that country call, and rightly call, on the State to interfere. Com mercial principles were insufficient, since the circum stances to be dealt with were not merely commercial.- - (Heer, hear.) He had received a reply that night from one who, with a very weak case, was a very powerful op ponent, and who exercised great influence in that House. 'the principle he had laid down to vindicate his advocacy of State assistance to commercial enterprise in Ireland was opposed by the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth, who repudiated the doctrine with respect to the political and commercial asp l z e c i csa t ro s the auue o lfdl f oae px( ti q lrdyo u u s ntuo t o i t o pt n htu , hei iiatnienuk:iletuwhi circumstances n o sui an a nu d acm v l :yds cleast less whichdt h t o h hu o og s e h (t 1r now principles p p, of wh lreland. He listened demolishing the to u the rgumlai R nt, ight t o h n Honourable bulde admiration B d u u e t t t o i m a e mrausvteenrg, revenged d n d truth;cou l a d undo the a even w attempt e a u r e ig p u ly t . Hon. Gentleman's speech was the proposition which on two occasions:the same Right Hon. Gentleman had de voloped.—(Hear.) When they considered that the state of Ireland was one which had baffled all statesmen— when they reflected on the position of any Government called on to cope with a case uf such aggravated diffi • culty, great was the responsibility of that man who came forward in a position so eminent as that of the Right Hon. Gentleman, and volunteered his opinions. It was on his part, no doubt, a high act of duty. Those suggestions ought to be received with great respect, but, at the same time, weighed with careful scrutiny. If they were founded on deep thought, fine observation, and matured_ experience, none more readily than he (Mr. Disraeli) could acknowledge those qualities, or support the policy which miglit bring those sug,estioss into action. Those sugges tions were numerous; they wire not all novel. Fa ili ties for the transfer of' land, plans to encourage en.i gration, propositions to permit the investmeet of public moneys in public works, were measures of great interest and importance, but they had been heard of before. The characteristic feature of the Right Hon. Gentle man's revelations was, that, somehow or other, the state or the society of England was to appropriate to itself those vast regions which were now the scene of so much misgovernment and misery in Ireland, and that, by happier management and more successful cul tivation, results quite opposite to those now realised would be attained, and the regeneration of Ireland would, iu fact, be occasioned by a change in the tenure of land under the happier auspices of the English Go vernment. A more elaborate exposition had been given by the Right Hon. Baronet besides the preliminary in timation afforded some weeks ago—not inferior in ability —not as the Odyssey to the Iliad, the setting to the rising sun, but still as radiant and fervent as his earliest effort. Combining those two expositions, he (Mr. Disraeli) could only conclude that the Right Honourable Gentleman anticipated at the bottom of his mind a considerable home colonization in Connaught. He referred to the time of James 1., and quoted the economical opinions of the wisest of Englishmen. But had the Right Hon. Gentleman considered the consequences of his proposition ? So far as he (Mr. Disraeli) could follow the Right Hon. Gen tleman, whom indeed he always followed with great at tention, there seemed one great pervading fallacy. The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to assume that lands were lying waste in consequence of the operasion of the poor-law, and that they were depopulated. They might be desolate, but they need not be depopulated. So far as.he (Mr. Disraeli) could obtain information, they were not so. There was a population on the waste lands who were quite sensible of the rights of possession and ready to maintain an adverse claim even though the title put forth be a Parliamentary one. In what position did that circumstance place the Right Hon. Gentleman and similar projectors ? But, said the Right Hon. Gentle man, " remember the plantations of Ulster." They were conceived by great statesmen, and they achieved great results. Ulster had, in trying times, maintained the connexion between the two countries. Why should they not be as successful in carrying out plantations under Victoria as they bad been under King James? When the the prime cause s of the success which had attended the Ulster plantation were examined, one could scarcely be induced to believe that the Right Hon. Gentleman was the statesman who advocated such a principle. The plantation of Ulster, notwithstanding a thousand difficulties, was successful from the inspiring force of a community of religious sentiment. Now, the Right Hon. Gentleman was not, he imagined, the states man to look forward to a community of religious feel ing to be the basis of his new plantation.—(Bear, hear.) Yes; but what the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed was to place there substantial farmers, men of great capital and considerable scientific acquirement. Now, he did not wish to hurt the feelings of any one, but it was pro bable that the great majority of those persons would be Protestants; living in the midst of a Roman Catholic population, who would not only regard them as intru ders, but'as men having an inferior title to themselves. He saw all the difficulty of plantations on the Protestant principle, such as took place 200 years ago. Were they to reproduce that source of so many calansi ies? He hardly believed that the House of Commons would au thorise that principle.—(" Oh ! oh !") " Oh ! oh r but they must deal with the circumstances before them, and if they called upon England to undertake an expe riment of such vast proportions, without considering all these circumstances, they would not be acting like states. men. Ho spoke entirely independent of the reli gious feeling—which he (Mr. Disraeli) would be as little ready as any man to evoke, and which he was sure the Right Honourable Gentleman would be the last man in the House to evoke when he said that a colony or plantation taking place in a country where the population had an adverse possession offered a prospect of the most calamitous kind.—(Hear, hear.) ,Would they plant these men in Connaught with out taking care that they were protected? But, if they were to be protected, how was it to be done? Why, by force, by arming themselves, and by the development of the military principle which always took place in these plantations. He did not believe that any attempt at home colonization of this kind, even if they proceeded in the mitigated forms and with the modified courses of the 19th century, could end in anything except in calamities which the imagination could not conceive, and which they would all hereafter deplore and wish to avoid. But the Right Hon. Gentleman would not carry his plan into effect as far as a forced plantation or colony, but ho would have a high commission to manage these lands. Now there was one deficiency in the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman, who proposed that his commission should be a local one, and that it should be on the spot. But he seemed to omit from his consider ation that these distressed districts did not lie alto gether. If the Right Hon Gentleman looked at the map of Ireland, and traced that extensive western coast from the Bay of Donogal to Bantry Bay, he would find that some of this district commenced at the upper part of Donegal and ended at Kerry, and that there intervened the counties of Clare and Limerick. He should wish to know where the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed to place this local commission, which was to be on the spot, and to supersede not only the metropolitan authority, but also the authority of the Viceroy. But, suppose this high commission established, say at Limerick, what was it to do? The Right Hon. Gen tleman, vague and shadowy as he was, and which became the colossal proportions of such projects, did descend a little into detail, and referred to those men. sures which the House had passed for the mitigation of the sufferings of Ireland. What were those measures? The Right Honourable Gentleman particularly dwelt upon the funds voted to pfomote drainage in Ire land, which funds were now under the manage ment of the Commissioners of Public Works. (Hear, hear.) Now, he would take that instance. Was there any Gentleman imagined that those funds could be better managed by a commission such as the Right Hon. Gentleman had recommended? If there were, he should like to know the grounds of such an opinion. He was reading the report of the Commis sioners of Public Works that morning, and he was cer tainly of opinion that if those Commissioners erred, which he was far from suggesting was the case, it was on the side of too much scrupulosity; but better ma nagement and greater discretion in the application of public funds he did not believe were anywhere to be found. Did the House suppose that these high Commis sioners would show more discretion, more vigilance, e bl g ic more economy than the Commissioners. o might pursue this train of analysis with respect to theapplication f the public funds. He cou ld not brin g himself to bel i e ve t W ha o t rk th s e ? Lo (C rd rie H s of "Hear,ighCommhear.")issioners could manage the funds raised by the poor - rate better than was done at n presen t by the guardians and vice-guardians. The Right H o n. Baronet had given credit to th e l a tt er b o di es, and how did he suppose that his commission would be able to administer these funds with greater ability? Take the railways. What were the High Commissioners to do if Government advanced 1,500,0001. to Irish railways ? Who would administer that ? Why, the directors of the railway. As far as the plantation scheme of the Right Honourable Gen tleman was concerned he thought it impossible—as far as the application of the present funds, and the mainte.e nance of the present arrangements connected therewith in Ireland were concerned, be thought it would be nugatory. Under the best circumstances, the High Commissioners would not be able to act more for the public advantage than the functionaries that now existed. But the third and more im portant feature of the Right Honourable Gentleman's plan was that of giving a Parliamentary title—(Hear, hear)—and before Hon. Members were fascinated by the large and eloquent views of an experienced statesman, they should .pause and consider whether the measure proposed were a matured measure, or a crude and ill advised one. He (Mr. Disraeli) had heard in his time many causes given for the miseries and misgovernment of Ireland, and there had been nothing more interesting than the variety of changes on that subject. At the earlier part of his public career it was supposed that Ireland had been miserable and misgoverned on account of the difference of religion between the two countries. Then it was found that the cause was not religious, but political, and that Ireland had not a sufficient number of Members of Parliament. Well, Ireland had an increased number of Members of Parliament; but she remained equally miserable and misgoverned as ever.—(A laugh.) Then it was discovered that the cause was not religious or political, but municipal. Ireland, it was dis covered, had no Roman Catholic aldermen. Well, she at last had Roman Catholic aldermen. They had seen in that House the Lord Mayor of Dublin, with his gold chain, and they had now a Lord Mayor from that city without one. But the misery and misgovernment remained, and at last it was discevered that the cause was neither religious, political, nor muni cipal, but material, and was to be found in the tenure of lands. That opinion prevailed some time, when the cause was suddenly discovered to be social. To the Right Hon. Gentleman was now due the credit of pro claiming that the real cause that Ireland was miserable muni cipal, material, nor social, but that it was legal. Ireland It a and misgoverned was neither religious, political, peared that all this time her Majesty's realm d o a f laugh.) had been in Chancery.—(" Hear, hear," cause, involved in a Chancery knew that when a gentleman gote i h n i v s n v carriages and suit he dispensed with some o Well, be thought that a sufficient less splendid, and his ser vants, that his banquets became that the same result raiment more scanty, he supposed large when • it got produced upon the nation at might be Hon. Gentleman had acted into Chancery. The Right • h considerable decision. ~ He had, in his own language an and as they House that he would give these properties a Parlia the offered wlt himself to cut the Gordian knot, and had told gien sary title. The lion. Member for Mauchoter had talked of the general registry on the continent, the effect of which, it had been stated, had added several years' purchase to the value of the lands. The Right Hon. Gentleman proposed to take the lands of Connaught and sell them under a Parliamentary title, which he (Mr. Disraeli) maintained would have the same effect as a system of general registry. The Right Hon. Gentleman would sell them first of all to pay the state for the sums advanced, or to defray the rates for which they were indebted, and, after paying those charges, he would hand over the proceeds to the proprietor. That property would be sold under great advantages, but what would he do to the property in Munster or Ulster? Did he mean to say that the solvent and provident pro prietor should bring his property into the market at a disadvantage e‘compared with the insolvent and im provident proprietor, w ho had not discharged his duty either to himself, to society, or to his country.—(Hear, hear.) Was an estate iu Con naught, on account of the 'aches of the proprietor, to be sold under these advantages, and was the Ulster proprietor to be told—" Your title is reasonably good, but there is a ruined and dissolute fellow in Con naught, nho has a Parliamentary title, and your mask t is 'lest' oyed ?"—(Eleae, hear.) He oppthed the planta tion scheme of the Right Hon. Gentleman, es he had stated, because it was impossible; his interference with the local funds, because it would be nugatory; and his Parliamentary title, because he held it to be unjust.— (Hear, hear.) He agreed with the Right Hon. Gentle men in thinking it expedient to reduce the area of tax ation, which his (Mr. ,Disraeles) friends had for some time been urging upon the attention of the House. The Right Hon. Baronet had alluded to the influence which the repeal of the corn-laws had exercised on the circum stances of Ireland. He was not anxious to introduce this subject, and thus to revive those perhaps too bitter disputes which he feared would again too quickly and too fiercely come under their consideration.—(Hear, hear.) But he felt bound to notice the observations of the Right Honourable Gentleman if he intro duced the subject. He had asked, what would be the state of Ireland if, with the potato famine in that country, Indian meal were still subject to a duty of 10s? The Right Lion. Gentleman always assumed that Indian meal could never have been introduced into Ire land except at a duty of 10s., in which he differed from the Right Hon. Gentleman. If he were forced by these allusions to refer to the repeal of the corn-laws with re ference to the condition of Ireland, he felt persuaded that when the future historian of our time —one, perhaps, as well acquainted with the circumstances, and as highly accomplished, as that brilliant writer whose absence he as deeply deplored as any man in that House—if he had to recount the past, and to tell the world that almost at the same time a statesman of this country introduced the vast experiment of a poor-law in Ireland, and, at the same time, not only disturbed, but destroyed, the assured and only markets which that country had, whatever might have been that historian's economic theory, how ever completely he might be bound to those dogmas which he (Mr. Disraeli) believed might be so generally true and so partially false, of this he felt pursuaded, that such an historian would say that the statesman who at the same time introduced that vast experiment upon a country which he also deprived of her markets, was embarking, not only in the most dan gerous, but also the most ruinous experiment, which any Minister had ever dared to venture upon.—(Cheers ) The question which had thus been brought under the notice of the House was one quite independent of any abstract truth, and completely apart from any of the theories of which they had heard so much. To enforce the joint operations of two such measures as a poor-law in Ireland and the repeal of the corn-laws was a political blunder as great as any that had ever been committed. It was quite true that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth might say that be was in no respect answerable for the poor-law, that it had not been inflicted upon Ireland by him. But whether or not he was responsible for the poor•law in Ireland, he should have remembered that that: poor-law had been passed before he proposed to Parliament a re peal of the corn-laws; and the House should remember that there proceeded from that succession of mea sures a combination such as the human intellect had greater confidence, because he had not heard Ministers themselves maintain that their own proposition was adapted to those which would be, probably, the perma nent circumstances cf the country. He had also ven tured to criticise the elaborate proposition of the Right Honourable Member fbr Tamworth, as delivered to them in the second of his series of speeches upon this subject. He should be glad to hear the third address of the Right Honourable Baronet, for doubtless they would have many speeches, each edition revised and corrected for public use. He need make no apology for thus dwelling on the sentiments of that Right Hun. Gentleman, as everything that fell from his lips must be of vast importance, considering his great experience of public life, and more especially considering his great experience in the administration of Irish affairs. When they recollected how many years the Right Hon. Gentleman had been Chief St cretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland they might naturally suppose that the plans which he propounded to the House were the quintessence of all the projects that he found in the pigeon-holes of his office in the Castli,atDublin. But whatever view that Right Hon. Baronet might take of the affairs of Ireland his suggestions would be calcu lated to web public attention, though they might not satisfy the public necessity; nevertheless . his opinions were to be valued not only for their intrinsic worth, but also on account of the position which their author occu pied in the House and the country. They were of value, likewise, because they were significant of the way in which public opinion was being formed and the quarter to which it was directed. He looked also at the opinions of the Right Hoe. Gentleman as proofs that the time had gone by for dealing with Ireland upon grounds of political economy, and it was something to have arrived It that when they remembered the propositions they had listened to, and what speeches had been made in that House session "after session, and oppore tunity &ter opportunity.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") When the affairs of Ireland were most pressing he had frequently found great satisfaction on taking up his newspaper in the morning when he perceived that there had been a meeting of MAI Members in Downing -street re:pecling some Irish railway, and greater satisfaction still when he came down to the House and found that another railway was to be supported. The capital, then, which his late Noble Friend had proposed to be applied to the purposes of Irish railways was now well nigh ex hausted, and in that very direction which his Noble Friend had pointed out. Let there be only another famine and all that his Noble Friend had proposed would be carried into full effect.—(Hear, hear.) He had spo ken respectfully of the plans of the Right Hon. Gentle man, and he entertained for them much respect, a senti ment to which they were fully entitled; and when the House had heard those views propounded to them, no wonder that some who did not always keep present to their minds what occurred in tha t House, should ask why he and those who thought with him had not likewise favoured them with views of Ireland—why they had not followed the example of the Right Hon. Gentleman, by also becoming painters. He could tell them that that had already been done. In adverse times, when they were political economists, he had put forward to them the necessities of the Irish and modes of relief. He should now, as then, oppose any proposition which tended to make any difference between Ireland and Eng land. The need of Ireland was an imperial need, and he maintained that it was as politic as it was highly wise and just, to treat Ireland as an integral part of the United Kingdom, and, with fitting assistance and friendly counsel, much might be done for Ireland that might be far more valuable than a rate in aid. It had been sug gested that Ireland would readily contribute, by means of an income-tax, to the necessities of her own poor, and he certainly should support his Hon. Friend the Member for Kerry it he brought forward a proposition to that extent. He should support an income-tax com bined with the workhouse test if it terminated that in justice to the land of Ireland to which he was strongly opposed ; and, as he considered that aid was required from the Imperial Exchequer, he saw no reason why it should not be contributed from an Irish income-tax. 6,000,0001. might thus be fairly brought into play, every species of Irish property might be taxed fairly, and there would be nothing having a tendency to never previously encountered, and many years might . induce mortgagees to foreclose. Tliat clas;of proprietors not pass away before it produced a state of society would then contribute as readily as any other; a fund in Ireland calculated to shako the institutions of the would thus he created for the relief of the Irish poor, and empire to their foundations.—(Hear.) The Right Hon. the pride of Ireland, the justifiable pride of the country, Gentleman had with considerable effect shown how the might be legitimately iedulged. That was his idea of an imperial duties of this country had been fulfilled, and income-tax; and no* he would seek to impress this upon upon that occasion he read to the House a certain letter the attention of the House, that if they wished to adopt written by a Lancashire man, warning the House at the the suggestion of the Right Hon. Member for Tam same time not to laugh. In his opinion that caution worth, they must revert to the law of 1838; and was perfectly necessary, for there was nothing whatever they must come to this, that they shall di in the letter to provoke laughter. It was a plain, minish the taxing area. But when they obtained straightforward statement of details given with unaffected such an income-tax as he suggested—when they had simplicity. It was calculated to produce great effect, stopped the great evil of the poor-law, then the State but there was not one line of it that did not admit of might aid the enterprise and industry of Ireland, accord being dwelt upon. There c er t a i n ly was no reason w h y i ng t o th e sugges ti ons o f hi s N o bl e F r i e nd, under the such letters should not be read, nor any reason why sanction and shadow of the Imperial Treasury. He did Lancashire might not prosper in the west of Ireland. not despair of Ireland; and one object at the present mo- But letters from Lancashire might also be brought for- ment was to meet difficulties of so pressing a nature that ward to show that recent measures of legislation had not a day should pass without thinking of some measure stopped the progress of improvement and checked the of alleviation and improvement. The time had arrived growing prosperity which Lancashire men might confer. when England and Ireland must learn to forget: it was He also held in his hand a letter from a Lancashire useless to go back to the past. It would be unprofitable man, part of which he intended to read to the House. or worse to examine minutely the blunders of some and It was a letter addressed to the Editor of the Times, the corruption of all. He hailed as a new era that period and bore date the Ist of December, 1848, with the when those recollections would vanish with the potato— signature " Francis Graham." As it had so recently ap- when the strife which had subsisted between the two peered in the Times newspaper, it doubtless was well countries would be consigned to oblivion. Petty and tra known to the Members of that House, but there was one ditional causes of dissension must he forgotten; both short extract of a few lines which he could not deny him- countries must really be united, and Ireland, like the self the pleasure of reading, for Mr. Graham took ex- Patriarch in his struggle 'with the mystic wrestler, would ceedingly just views of the present state of Ireland, and find that when the strife was over she had been contend of the consequences which the present poor-law was ing, not with an oppressor, but with a guardian angel. likely to produce in that part of the United Kingdom. Lord J. RUSSELL ssid—The Hon. Gentleman who Mr. Graham, part of whose letter he had to read, ad- has just sat down, to whom I have listened with the dressed the editor of the Times in these words :—"A utmost attention during the whole of his speech, has Lancashire gentleman, son to Mr. Eastwood, of Brindle- made it necessary for me to enter into details in reply to lodge, near Preston, who has got a lease for ever from him, extended far beyond the mere ordinary course of me of a large improveable tract, and who, in the two the present debate. But before I enter upon these years he has resided here h a s expended between 4,0001. larger questions, I think it advisable for a short time and 5,0001. on it (no idle man), having employed on to detain the House with some vindication of the project the average 50 labourers daily, and in summer some- of the Government which is now before it. That pro times as many as 120, most of them belonging to the ject is not, as the lion. Gentleman represented it, in properties of other proprietors, and there not being one tended as a comprehensive view of the present Admi single pauper on the large townland on which he re- nistration to relieve the distress at prts .nt prevailing in sides, containing 2,658 acres—on the valuation of the Ireland, or to promote at once the general prosperity of union being revised the other day, had his that country.—(Hear, hear.) It is intended only as a improvements valued at an increase of 115/. a-year, merely temporary measure, adapted for the cure of the though none of them are as yet in the slightest evils under which Ireland iii at present suffering, but is degree reproductive. (He wanted to show how the not a project contemplated to afford any ultimate or present poor-law was fatal to Ireland.) The result is, comprehensive relief.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") The Mr. Eastwood has dismissed all his labourers except Honourable Gentleman stated that the proposition of a twelve, and until a :change in the law takes place has rate in aid, as introduced by the Government, was unfair. completely ceased all his improvements and employment, Now, Sir, I cannot believe that any one would have by which so many families were supported, who are now said that it was unjust if we had proposed, in any or thrown upon the union as recipients of out-door relief." dinary year, or under ordinary circumstances, that the —(hear, hear.) He was OA from those indications of taxation of Ireland should be assimilated to that of Eng sentiment to find that not only the Right Hon. Gentle land.—(Hear.) When Ireland was not allowed to have man the Member for Tamworth, but the responsible ad- recourse to our colonies ; when she was not permitted visers of the Crown, were in the same boat with him; to trade with the West Indies or North America; when and he hoped that when the Noble Lord awoke from the even the trade with this country was fettered like that slumbers he was then enjoying that ho would turn his with a foreign state ; then it might be right that the attention to the effects of the poor-law in Ireland upon superior amount of taxation should be borne by Eng the success of Mr. Eastwood's speculation. The Noble land.—(Hear.) But since every restriction of this kind Lord would find that Mr. Eastwood had dismissed all upon her commerce has been done away with, it appears his labourers save twelve, and he had adopted the reso- to me that there would be no injustice to Ireland in lution of not proceeding with his improvements till the proposing that many taxes to which this part of the law was entirely changed. One immediate effect of this empire is subjected—such, for instance, as the was that a certain number of families became entitled land-tax, the assessed taxes, the duties of the to out-door relief. He should now call the attention excise, and the income-tax, should all be ax of the House to another case, that of Mr. Prior:— tended in principle and practice to Ireland.—(Hear, "Another gentleman, Mr. Prior, who has a similar lease hear.) But if this be so, it comes then to a question from me, and obtained from Government 8001. as a lo an , of expediency whether these taxes should be extended under the Act you refer to in your article of the 17th to Ireland. It appeared to us that we were imposing ult., the first instalment of which, 160/., he has already a lighter burden upon that country, under present laid out on his farm, having previously expended a large circumstances, when we proposed that a rate of no more amount of private capital on it, had his improvements, than 6d. in the pound should be levied on all the rateable effected with this Government money, valued, and his property in Ireland. But if we had proposed such a rates increased in an equal manner ; the consequence of s 3 stem of taxation as I have allu ded to, we mi g ht have which is, that the wrote last week to the Government, contemplated applying its proceeds to general Imperial saying he must decline taking the remainder of the 800/., purposes. The tax we do propose, however, we intend as his doing so would make him liable to pay a greater should be appropriated to the relief of the suffering part sum than he even now does, to support the paupers of of the kingdom only. Now, if it be just that we should other estates." Those were the views of the state of propose such a tax for imperial purposes, is it not so Ireland which the persons best qualified to bear testimony when we propose it should be entirely applied to Ireland, to them furnished to the public. But the leading Mem- and for the benefit of that country exclusively?—(Hear.) bers on both sides of that House were all for remedial Now, if there is any truth in this remark, so far as the measures,and earnestly professed a desire to stimulate pri- justice of the proposition is concerned, I believe that our vote enterprise and industry under the sanction of the state. proposal can be maintained with perfect justice. The But the proprietor of Ireland treated their laws un- Hon. Gentleman opposite who has just sat down has s s e su b. d gratefully or seemed to do so, for the obvious reason that the contemplated tax will be inadequate for it oo . that they could not use those laws otherwise than at jects. He took the amount ! at only about; 300, _ u. enormous cost. The House could not fail to have ob. Well, then, a sum of 50,000 L had been already voted by served the circumstances which under the letter be had the House; and assuming the Hon. Gentleman's calcula quoted bad been written. It was written in the tone of tion to be correct, there will be a sum of 350,0001. in the a man who desired to expostulate with The Times, alter course of the year 'applicable to the relief of Irish dis one of its indignant and powerful articles, exercising all tress. In the course of last year 390,0001. had been the influence which they were well known to exercise applie d to the relief of the distress in the whole of over public opinion. The writer of the letter appeared Ireland; but still carrying out the charitable views of net only to have that object in view, but he seemed also this country, the British Association had a large sum is to conclude that in the attempt of the Government to hand. I submit, therefore, that the sum of 350,00 . 01. carry out their views, they meant at the same time to wou ld b e a n ade q uate sum for the p ur p ose of relievltril confer a boon upon Ireland by facilitating improvement the existi n g and contem p lated distress in Ireland and employment. But the Ministers of the Crown might Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire says ourpropositLeon. rest thoroughly assured of this, that until the laws were is an unfair distribution of the burden tarnof rt altered the hands of all men would be tied. He would cause it falls entirely on the landed property quote again from the letter of which he had already read who are peculiarly burdened—on one r - ic 3i l s s i part of the sub an extract:— more than another. With regard to re rates to be col that as there we "Owing to the principles of the present poor-law, the ject , it appeared to us the aor, it would be eraeas nd nythethosey boon granted by the Legislature to benefit the country, lected for the relief h of I ) prep os e d tax in the same way. But by facilitating improvement and employment, is cons e et-eland tell us that a tax upon - lighter to collect t represent, mt eon wo uld s that b w e h a il f e a i t r h e e r y b a u r r e d burden than ill in on o t r pletely nullified; and until the law with respect to im- if those who_ provements on land being subject to increased rate for a property they' would accept an income and certain extended period, is altered, and until each pro- proposal—ifa, our and they I °i :hat sufficient relief would be ven perty or townland is directly liable to support the dead- 4 tution existing on it, by employment or otherwise, the trom ttl Y eir Pr srg as e ni stion—l can assure those Hon. Gentle handsmen there will be no such insuperable objection to their of every man, whether improving landlord or in- e t ropers tax proposal on the part of the Government as will prevent dustrious farmer, are completely tied, and the position use from adopting that form of impost which appears to of this country must go from bad to worse , a the ste p la to y . i " g be most approved of by those • t rested.-lear hear.) out of capital on land being completely put Ireland, then, being in the condition depicted in that the The Hon. M b f "m is In e stated in If ' h ern er or .....oneuester document, he could not help asking the House an d f the holidays that having now for some years ciditributed to the relief Government how thercould adiofur ta : l an . e Aslar of Irish distress in this country . Ireland was bound to with such a law in exist:le : 6'6l7' -( "tear, able Gentlem take —' ' ' part, not's as he could follow the nig I_lo. - ht e did t' n ° o u t r understand an all ' ' leans on that the Member for Tamworth , h esent oor-1 him °ley and - entirely but in part, in the eviation of the pressure which nowiththe Hon as giving in his adhesion to the pr p law; but, country. And in that opinion I concur w was that Right Hon. Gentleman prepared to go back to Gentleman. It is nothing to the present case to say, as the law of 1838?—for he was presumed to undertake has been said in former discussions as well as the re the workhous e test, and to maintain that it must be ap- sent , t h at the mo n ey contributed for the relief of Irish plied. But he had heard the Right Honourable Gentle- distress, from the Imperial Exchequer, was ill distri man talk of employing the poor on the roads, and he c onfessed himself rather at a loss to u n d ers t an d how bated or lavishly bestowed. That may be broug ht as a charge against the Government; but as far as the that was to be done consistently with a stringent Pon) m aintenance of the workh ouse teat. Ile further under- le of Great Britain are concerned, their re adiness is still the same to contribute to the ,distress where it stood the Right Honourable G en tl eman tooose a existed.—(Hear, hear.) The application of the funds, labour-rate as bad i n po li cy, and in many respects ob- therefore, had nothing to do with the question jectionable. H e h ope d that he was correctly stating l arge con t r ib u ti on ma de by Great Britain to the enter relief further the sentiments of th e Ri g h t H onoura b le Gentleman, f or distress.—(Hear.) I am not willing to uestio ns so it was mo s t i mportant that they should have his op i n i on into this subject of the rate in aid, because q of t h o o f distinctly. If the labour-rate were to be denounced how much larger and more important than the payment of for two years have been raised were the paupers t o b e em pl o y e d u p on th e roads of a sixpence in the pound country that was already o ver roa d e d ?—( Hear, hear.) in the course of this discussion. We have beard from lie had th us ve nt ure d t o g i ve hi s reasons for opposing the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, we the mea su r e of th e Government, and he could not help have heard from my lion. Friend the Member for Man believing that the reasons he had given were founded on cheater, we have heard from the Hon. Gentleman who the CipitilastsllCell pf the case. Lie dill this with the has just sat down, speeches of surpassing interest era TIIE SUN, iONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 3, 1819.