The Sun. — London, England, 1849-07-17 00:00:00

vhf b tCit•uL had d not to tea that Id be is ) bad rtain , but bad as leas) -ty 'so a land ; Irded G W!1.1 mig ht sbil' a f o re s hed , x ioa !Ova wer e rge ' ea' g of tb o jpoo ora lade Oble le b ken Md . ..:. ST. JOHN'S HOSPITAL. In answer to another question from Mr. HUME, Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to sate, that with llga rttnrd to St. J o h n ' s H ospital, lib Learned Fr i end the ney-Genera ace l would consider which way the inquiry 141111 pl. INCUNIBERED ESTATES BILL. B. OSBORNE that as the incumbored Estates Bill stood for tonight, he wished to know Whether the Noble Lord would inform them who the Commissioners were to he. tk Lo nrd JOHN RUSSELL could not at present state e r ames of th e C omm i ss i oners, b ecause h e h a d not re -teed the assent of the gentlemen to whom he had _offered the offices. He VT a s anxious that the persons moo ed Were appointed to the post should be qualified in A v ."3' respect for the duties they were called upon to saseh arge. REM UNERATION OF MEDICAL OFFICERS. , 1 1r. DISR AELI wished to know from the President to the Puar-law Board if the Poor-law Commissioners d a rort Come to any determination to increase. tie 0 - i inP ration of Poor-law medical officers in consequence ,r.etillieir increased duties in connexion with the Board of He believed the President of the Poor-law Commission had the power to make an order for t ti ,, e t r h e as 2 d remunerati on . I> would be very sltisfactory e prVession if the Hon. arid Learned Gentleman Would state the course he int,-nded to pursip. a , Mr. BARNES wai understood to say that the ques `ll3,n was under the comideration of the board. :I_ll reply to Mr. MACKINNON, I.ord ASHLEY stated that the Bishop of London 1"d intimated that interments in his diocese would . be ntl'Pended if the President of the Board of Health deemed it 4 cess arY, and that no resumption of them would take r tee until it was deemed proper to do so. INCUMBERED ESTATES BILL. t M. MONSELL asked what the Noble Lord in ended to do with respect to this Bill? Lord J. RUSSELL hoped to be enabled to proceed wtth it this evening; but if not, he intended to proceed With it to morrow: t ake DUNNE hoped the Noble LDrd would not a; 4 O the Bill at twelve o'clock to-morrow. The Irish eibiera Were d es i rous of confining the debate one night. Wording to the Lord VAN COUVER'S ISLAND. L INCOLN intimated that it was impossible, tht: i lle on hi s Hi . rules of the Hose, that he could bring on this siih-ct aiin this session. He fore ° i, t4)ll -eggi.d to withdraw it. Lord o (L' rd J. Ru sse ll) wou ld not as k t h e H ouse to meet f_rroorrow morning, see i ng it wou ld b e likely to inter " e with the eveninr, sitting, when he had is very im- Port ant motion t o b r i ng f orwar d, w hi c h h e should like to ace brought en and finished. Lord J. RUSSELL did not suppose that the early m e et iu g to-morrow would extend beyond three o'clock. 46 Ron. Gentl eman ' s m otion might come on soon after fi ve, and be concluded that evening. Sir W. CLAY and Mr. WALPOLE postponrA their m otions, the former respecting the expense of the new 14 onses of Parliament, and the latter with regard to the 48 e of Mr. Ry!and. Mr. lIUNIE had on the paper a motion simiLar to that orthe Hon. Member for Oxfordshire, but did it of intend to bring it forward, as he would content hinxself with su pporting the in.tion of the Hon. Member. REDUCTION OF PUBLIC SALAR i WS. i ~, 0 a the moti on f or t h e H ouse resolving tss If into a ' - ' or amittee of Supply on th e O r d nance estimate sto, move i s Ur. HENLEY rose, pursuant to notice, th at a re d uct i on of 10 per cent. be made in all salaries La the Ordnance department, and in all other depart did4ef Government at home and abr oad. the, sofficers :not wish to cast any imputation uon t. Pgaged in the public service. He was p anxiousrlts should o ou se ld e Cat the parties engaged in the public departmee, Perform, qualified to discharge the duties they h e a d d fo to r ii e ro: l l and that they should be fairly- remune rat as e it. services. He wished them to be as well off ether person s in similar situations. In fact he con tsidered it the best mode to secure the efficient perform hee 0 1 the duties of these offices. He then reeerred to ter report of the C omm i ttee pres id e d over b y t h e Member 4 4 imme Northamp on. That Committee did n ot i ee erntmend diate reduction of salaries, as they were of I).l:Anion that it should form part of a general considera 13fonuaotfiotuhse,,,e,.xupsenditure of the country. It was the duty of i ndividuals, to take a view of their :ltt.oeincial attairs, to adjust them to an altered state . of e gs- The last time there was a review of this subject time in 1831, under the Reform Government. At that . o r a Committee was appointed to revise the salaries of state, particularly those in the higher departments of the 1/ e ' and he should therefore call the attention of the ease to the position of the country to en and now, the means I.‘.a_l resources to meet its liabili.ies and excienditu H re e , la a tl s the prices of the various necessaries of life. T ie . not inclined to trouble the House with figures,_b . u u t fi r,, e' t st.o. compelled on the present occasion to do so. The p e ,!elhe he should direct their attention to was the ex venuiture, including the charges for collecting the IT irsosuhriude, n u i na n be lB rs 3 „ l in 1848, expenditure was 51,700,000/ ; in ;990 000/ and no doubt he should be ' • kie might be told, up to the 6th of January, it was placetold, that a great increase in the population had taken il in that period, The population in 1831 was ;,000; in 1 848, allowing for no increasein Ireland, " wes the''28927,000, being au increase of 18 per cent., while le Increase in the expenditure was 14 per cent., S t i i le tbilt the expendit ure bore a ratio of 44 per cent. to Pricre P , t • ilati cm.—(Hear.) Then if they took the average se corn, f l - the first 14 years, they would , or at east End 't t i 0 b down at tln t t ~,, e gout 575. per quarter, and was , th e "'creent to 455. It was one of the reasons also why the ratio of the present taxation was beyond the power ot i n e People to bear it, that crime had considerably . erea3e d- Now let the House see the relation Which the Pa'pu'a' ion bore with the number of their etrittenals. In 1831 the population of England (he did he mean to carry Ireland into the comparisen, in con- Englan d of the great distress in that country), but , ii ogland in 1831 it wes 13,897,000; criminals, 19,64 r ; e a Wh i„ ile , in 1848, with it p puletion of 17,497,000 the cri• i ga's wer e 39 349, bein ' ss an increase in the number of e et ' lllin ek He (Mr. He i nley) did not attribu buttat to a y a 'i uenaoraliz4tion on the part of the people, o the em ployment.et of the existence of great distress and a want of h For his own p irt he never found any period e ~en cheapness of provisions and employment combined, thet crime did not deteriorate; and believing that at the present moment there was cheapness of provisions and L e diminuti on o f cr i me, he believed it was solely from a a nt of employment. For the last ten years the Chan cellor of the Exchequer had a deficient income, and he Chancellor, a l t h ough his Right Hon. Friend, the present ü bancellOr, threw a shade over his statement for the Present year, he would not h. in the end find himself in a touch better position than is . pr cessi,rs. ede • The salaries, as he had said, were revised inand he (Mr. Hen -183.1, would Oh itv that since that time a reduction on . an average ' cent. at least,tookplace in average of 20 per thought P . that were so, then he and necessaries of life. a reduction of 10 per cent. he was, justified in asking the Crown. In doing e,e , all 'salaries received from as onl • re distinctly understood ) that, he begged to be what were called ter t, ' to those who technically hold called „ g who derived what was e ,P l acess" and not those s Since their dock-yard . e Z''s, such as tradesmen in in every l •t.. ar lc I . • ex cept the as h stick—(A laugh)—for which sixpencehad Y ho still d emanded ; and articles of consumption l' 'al iehenß frien 15 to 20, and in some insta n c es 50 p e r c, , n.. . eight Hon Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex euequer said o n a recent occasion that the fall of those Justified was equal to 25 per cent. in wages, which V et ified him the more in asking by his motion a reduc :eke, oF 10 per cent. The classes of public offices to "`"ell he meant to apply a reduction were those paid ( i ) . Ut of lion s , the Public Exchequer, and amounted to five tail ,:iins• There were the five heads of the revenue to 6 „ e el incomes were paid of 1,200,0001 ; the Excise, 5<58.244/.; Stamps and Taxes, 372 1251.; Post-office, th 2 °(101; Woods and Forests, 44,700/.; amounting in ~...,ftegregate to 2 , 6 44,00(4. Then the re was to be added t° se several items from the miscellaneous estimates, Z,,odner the htad of civil service, law and justice, educa tri colonies and consuls, boards of health, including a proneetY °l ' commissions, the expense of which were im _u,rly charged on the Consolidated Fund, and amount ',ll,owtot 183,000 e making altogether about 1,191,000/. i&rartiishsearrei wee,t the estimates for the Ordnance and the entire maw' 0001,; diplomatic services, 140,0001.; Lord JOHNI g 4,730 000/. the the army asked if he did not include pay of army and navy? the differentNLE.l7. proceeded with the relative prices of ,It. taken articles of consumption, and what reduction !had place. Meat, according to him, had fallen 10 _ e 15 And 17 per cent.; bread 25 per cent.; groceries 30 2 l s r cent glass, hardware, &c, &c., 20 per cent.; coals P e r cent; and in cotton goods and clothing, 20 to 30 rr s. nt. The same reductions took place in hosiery, l e o r hoes, in beer, and even in locolioEion—(.1. laugh)- 10 . even an omnibus took a p,rson now for threepenee a distance for which !?here was no good reason why that large class ot per a. who received fixed incomes from the Crown should . I °_t have their salaries reduced. For every employment, l owers humble, there was a mass of competition. That theere.d remuneration for labour. When they reduced !_ 4. price of corn they reduced the incomes of clergym-n ; Ittin now in scarce harvests there could be no rise. every article the producer's profit Was Cut u e _ e wn, while the consumer's means of purchasing W as reduced. Those elle wished to maintain the Public credit must apply themselves to cut down the pay leents from the public treasury that could be cut down. lie implorfd the guardians of the public honour to con- Sider whether it would not be wise to make a timely concession of this kind. It might cave an inquiry of another, and, perh"Pa, a more objectionable kind. To buy in the cheapest market and sell in the dearest was now the principle laid down for acting upon in every class of society. There was a less p asver in the people how to bear taxation. The state of Ireland was alarm i,hte• The poor in that country were strugeling between 'Le and death, and a large class, hitherto comfortable, were coming down to that condition. Every farthing that they could save they should do so. lie believed t his Motion to be just and proper, and should therefore Wove, "That a reduction of ten per cent. be made in all salaries in the Ordnance Department, and in all other departments of Government at home and abroad," thThe C HANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped at the shouldsea treat this que st i on apart f rom all personal consi rtions.—((lear.) The Hon. Gentleman said that he included all classes in the public service from the hig,rlnest- Paid f unctionaries down to the letter-carriers at 7s. 6d, Per week. navy. Mr. HENLEY —The law except e d, an d th e army an d The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Oh, then, this is the fine instahnent.—(A. laugh.) The law and the army and navy were to form another instalment. :-(ltenewed laughter.) Now, what was the motion ? That inasmuch as the price of srticlea now were about the same as they were before the Bank Restriction Act and before the revolution of 1788, the salaries in the public offices should be somewhere about what they were at that period. The Hon. Gentleman had referred to a Committee of that House in 1831; hut that was at a time when there was very great pressure from distress They went through ail the offices, and after taking all the circumstances connected with the subject into thei r consideration, they recommended certain reductions in the sal cries of the highest functionaries of the State, after which they did not recommend any further re• duction, upon the principle stated in their report, • that to fill thee offices the highest class of intelli gence was required, and that economy, to deserve the name, should be such as would not place these offices beyond the reach of men of moderate fortune, who, by the talent and industry which this situation oftener called forth, were more fitted for these offices, which required the entire attention of an individual to the exclusion or his private affairs. Such men should not, by sudden changes in political affairs, be in danger of being ruined; and he suspected that if they examined the annals of the country, they would tind that a large ponies of those officers had been ruine 1. Thet Committee had reduced the salaries of the highest paid officers of the State, including the First Lord of the Treasury, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Se cretaries of State, the First Lord of the Admiralty, the President of the Board of Control. The salaries of the highest paid officers were reduced by a thousand per an num, and some public officers were e ntir e ly cut off. The Committee compared the then salaries with what they were before 1780, and after considering all circumstances, fixed a permanent rate of salary. It should also be taken into cot ,ideration that a further reduction had been made in all salaries. above 1501. per annum, by the imposition of an income-tax. That tax made a material reduction in the salaries of the great body of persons who would be subject to the reduction proposed. The general run of persons were paid lower in propor lion than persons employed in similar occupations in private life. They had not refused to make any roduc• Lion in the number of persons employed in the public service. In one department of the revenue alone a re duction of two thousand persons had been made, and wherever it was possible they were making similar re ductions. lie did not undyretand the principle upon which the Hun. Gentleman wished to proceed. Now, he might observe that the - low rate of pay exposed the officers in the Revenue departments to great temptation. —(Hear, hear.) Postmen and other persons similarly employed should not be too much underpaid, as it ex posed them to temptations which it was desirable for the public protection that they should not be exposed to. lie did not think that because purchases might be made at a low rate that it would be deSirable to reduce sala ries, because that would be laying down the principle of fluctuation in the amount of salaries, and be making them dependent upon the price of articles of consumption, which he believed would be most prejudicial in practice, injurious to the country, and in the end a more ex pensive system than that now in operation. Ile should not, therefore, feel it necessary to fellow the Hon. Gen tleman through his mass of figures, but upon these grounds state that he felt it to be his duty to oppose the motion. Mr. NE WDEGATE said that he felt great pleasure in supporting the motion of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Henley) There had oeen a reduction in the price of labour in the country, and in the price of articles of clothing ate] con• sumptien, and the difficulty of obtaining emiloyment ha increased, arid therefore he thought that the hel !era of the high official situations under the Crown should not continue to receive the same amount of salaries which they did under another and better state of things. It the change in the monetary and commercial policy of the country had been a slight or temporary one, he could have understood the argumeui - , of the Chancellor of the Excheqaer, but after the change in 1844, and that in 1846, both of which tended permanently to depress the prices of a large interest, some great and decided reduc tion was absolutely requirtd. It, was said that salaries had been definitely fixed in 1831, But had the reduc tions then made borne any proportion to the reductions in prices during the same time ? With reference to that point, he must refer to what had recently passed in the House on the subject of official and declared value. The Right lion. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had spoken of this as a fanciful distinction, and the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) said, " Oh, that was Alderman Waithman's view." IVho Alderman Vaithman was he did not know; but the difference between official and declared value was simply, that official value was fixed 150 years ago, and had never varied since; it was simply a mea sure of quantity, while the declared value was the market price of the goods. In 1811 and 1818, the official and the declared value were as nesarly as possible at par, or, in other words, the prices affixed to the goods, and that realised were equal, but from that period an alteration took place, a depreciation in market value began. In 1820 it amounted to 3,-} per cent. In the four years from 1829 to 1832, this discrepancy had increased, and the de precia ion amounted to 41i per cent., while late returns showed it to be 56i pee cent., though, as h- was prepared to show from tables, the declared value was rated even higher than the price actually realised, and the real depreciation was 63 per cent. •He therefore approved of the principle in his Hon. Friend's motion, that a per centage should be taken from all salaries, in proportion to the depreciation which had taken place in the value of every other kind of labour.—(Hear, hear.) He indi vidually did not approve of the policy which had led to the result—(Hear, hear)—on the contrary, he had op posed it ; but he did say this, that if the country as a whole was to be made poorer—if labour was to be paid lower than before—let the principle apply to all and not to few, or to any particular class.—(Hear, hear.) This subject had been studiously ignored, and banished from the !louse. Then, at best, men did not dare to touch it, but it was well understood throughout the country, and ho was certain that ere long a monetary and a commercial change would be forced upon them of a character which few persons dreamed of in that House. Their system was one of impoverishment. It made the poor man poorer, and the rich richer. The returns of the income-tax showed that the number of per, , ons possessing 15,0001. a year had been reduced by 1,481 since 1846.—(Hear.) He should cordially support the motion. Mr. V. SMITH said, as a Member of the Committee referred to by the Honourable Member (Mr. Henley), he could say that he had so far correctly stated the views of the Committee, but he must add, that he indi vidually held that the House of Commons should urge up ,n her Majesty's Ministers the propriety of snaking not a sudden and sweeping reduction—(Hear, hear) — but a careful revision of all the offices, and, having done so, to cut down salaries wherever necessary and just.—(Hear, hear.) In that way he thought very great savings could have been effected— (Hear, hear) —but the Honourable Gentleman shrunk from that laborious process, and proposed summarily to deci mve the incomes of all persons, without rtoerence either to their services, or th.ir incotnes. Could thing be more unjust than such a coursea?ny (Hear, hear.) At the same time, he admirted there were many grounds for such a motion. As an instance of the anomalies which he thought existed, he might men don the large salaries paid to the Secretaries of the Treasury and Admiralty, 2,5001. a year, while other officers more important in their duties, like that of Pre sident of the Poor-law Commissioners, were much lower paid.—(Hear, hear.) In that case, however, they bed gone into the market, and got the best talent they could for so important an office, and it would be most unjust now to cat down the salary they had agreed to give. As to the Committee 01 1831, the transactions of that period took place under a very peculiar state of things; many of the great Officers of State having in fact offered to agree to reductions of their own salaries. He must. however, say, that in his opinion, the Hon. Gentleman deserved the thanks of the House for bringing forward the motion. Unfortunately, with all-the boast of eco nomy with whica the session opened, there had been fewer debates on these topics than in any other session since he had sat in Parliament. There had been many recommendations made by the Select Committee on Miscellaneous Estimates, which had not been attended to. For instance, he did not see why the expenses of the Postmaster-General's office, and the Tithe Commission, should not be brought before the House. With respect. to the salaries of the higher officers of state, the Hon. Gentleman bad quoted many facts as reasons for re ducing them which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not answered, because they were in fact unanswerable. —(Hear.) These reductions in price had taken place, they could not be denied. But then the settlement of 1831 was pointed to. Why, at that time the Right Hon. Gentleman would have to run down to his country house in a chaise and four; whereas he now took his day ticket on the rail like any other man, and if the saving thus effected was calculated, it would be found not 20 per cent., but 200 or 300 per cent. In nu merous other directions, if the subject was carefully re• viewed, it would be found that after making ample allowance for the dignity of a high officer of the state, the salaries now paid them were more valuable than in 1831 ; and if the Honourable Member had confined his motion to these salaries, he, for one , s hould have been ready to give him his supp or t.—(H e ar.) But he could not vote for a motion which indiscriminately sought to reduce the incomes of all the servants of the state. There were large 'numbers of them, he thought, too poorly paid considering the duty they had to per. form.—(Haar, hear.) Besides, i n or d er to obtain these situations they had given up others, they had made all their arrangements on the faith of the engagements entered into with them by the Governtnent. Many of them had insured their lives, and in other modes still further diminished their limited incomes, on the faith that they would continued to be paid, and he for one believed that the House of Commons, however econo mical it might be, would not be b 0 at the expense of a laborious and useful body of public servants.—(Hear, hear.) For these reasons, therefore, while he agreed with the general object of the Hon, Member, and would be happy to aid in effecting any practicable reductions, he could not concur in voting for a motion which, from various indications on the Opposition benches, he could not help looking upon as meant to punish (if it were car ried) the Ministers for having been successful with a commercial policy to which they were opposed. Mr. ROEBUCK rose to say a very few words on the motion, because he did not mean to vote upon it. — (A laugh.) Why that was a very good reason for speaking. —(A laugh.) He objected to the motion that it was an unjust one. It was what had been called a flash in I the pan." The Hon. Gentleman never meant it to be carried. It wasoposed, because certain measures I which h a d been carried in that House, such as the repeal ' of the corn-laws, had made things cheap, and it was thought that it would be a good blow at Ministers in re taliation to cut down their salaries. He asked the House it it could vote for such a motion?—(Hear, hear.) If the Hon. Gentleman had come and said. here is a thing that is u nnecessary, abolish it; here is a place overpa id , he would have voted for him • but when he came and said all sal ar i es were to be reduced' 10 par cent., he could not do so. He would ask, were all the working servants of the Government overpaid?—(Hear, hear.) It that was not the one, would not the reduction of 10 per cent. be a great injustice to them?—(Hear, hear.) If, as the Honourable Gentleman appear, , d disposed to do, they left the - great officers of the state un touched, and cut down the lower paid officers, be would say shame upon the House of COMILVMS, or the Govern ment that could do so. But the Hon. Gentleman drew a distinction between potent offices and place holders. He excepted the Lord Chancellor with his large salary, because his was a patent offic ,, , while he would cut down the poor letter, carrier with 12s. a week, because he was a place holder; why, it was ridiculous. Then, again, in another part of his speech, he spoke of the letter-carrier as a working man, and contrasted his labours with those of his carter, to whom he paid lie. a week. But he did not take into account the superior trust and responsibility. —(Hear.) He held that a man ought to be paid in pro- portion to the duties he had to perform, and if there were no dudes attached to any of these offiiies, let them be abolished at once.—(Cries of " Hoar.") He tre:.ted the labourer of the state just as he tr:.ated all other Ldeourers, and ho said the labourer was worthy of his hire. In the proposal before the House Le could not assent, fur he regarded it as unjust in principle. He objected to reducing all public salaries at the rate of 10 per cent., because he considered that s:mm? were under pail while others received exorbitant salaries. If the Hon. Gentleman cemmencf'd with attacking the high officers of the state, the Lords of the Household and Ladies of the Bedenatnb: , r, for instance, he would be certain of gaining more popularity than by hi; present motion, which proposed to interfere with the salaries of the poor letter-carriers, a class of men who, fur roost responsible and important duties, were ill requited, and ought not on any principles of justice or ground of economy to be deprived of any portion of the stipend now allowed them. On these grounds he dissented from the motion submitted for the approval of the House, and if the Hon. Gentleman pressed it to a division he cer tainly intended recording his vote against it. Mr. DRUMMOND admitted that the motion did not quite correspond in its terms with his views, but still as It went the length of pledging the House to a recogni tion of economic principles, he could not abstain from recording his vote in its favour. They had heard from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and from other autho rities on the Ministerial benches, that the prices of food and other articles of commodity were much reduced, but was not this admission tantamount to another im portant admission, namely, that the reduction consider ably raised the fixed salaries of the officers of the state, with whom th© resolution submitted to the House now proposed to deal. He thought it quite right, and he made this remark in reply to an observation from the opposiLe side of the House. that the resolution did not propose to deal with the Judges of the land, whose offices were patented, because their salaries were fixed by Act of Parliament. In his own mind he felt convinced that they should lighten the burthens of taxation on the poor by increasing those on the rich, and the motion of the Hon. Gentleman to some extent recognising that prin ciple, he should accord to it his support. Mr. HUME could not agree eith the Hon. Member for Sheffield in considering the motion unjust, for it pro posed to deal with all officers of the state, and the pub lic hid a right to he served at the cheapest rate prac ticable. All his reasoning on that point was erroneous, and many of the arguments which he advanced were un reasonable. If an opportunity bad been afforded he should have proposed a resolution pledging the House that all future appointments should be made at a reduced scale of salary, but, net now b ing in a position to do so, he would support the proposition of the lion. Gentleman opposite, although he did not approve of it entirely. The extravagances of society ought to he brought down, so as to prove beneficial to the public expenditure. He thought that lawyers were about the most overpaid class iu the country, and in his opinion there was no situation more extravagantly remunerated than that of the Lord Chancellor, wan all his patronage. It their inc , tmes wet e brought do wia , aq public establishments would be affected, the Bishops thong the number;. for the public money that paid the Bishops ought to receive an equal amount of protection as any other public money. The Judges, too, were overpaid. The diplomatic services were overpaid; and he contended that, with due regard to their efficiency, they could be considerably reduced. It the motion were carried, it would be a pledge to the country that the House of Commons was in earnest on the subject of economy and retrenchment of the public expenditure; and, with that view he should give his vote with the lion. Member who submitted the proposition for their consideration. _ _ Mr. HERRIEi felt himself compelled, on what he considered grounds of justice, to record his vo:e in op position to the motion. Having briefly adverted to the grounds on which the Hon. Me.i.br for Montrose de• Glared himself favourable to the proposition, the Right Hon. Gentleman said he did not believe it would be just or politic to take any given sum at once from the salaries of all public servants. It might be as v. ell to remark that the average rate of salary in the Customs and the Excise was 101/. It was a mistake to suppose that the present proposition was anything new, for inquiries had been repeatedly instituted since 1815 up to the present time as to the salaries of public servants, and reductions had been made in consequence. Out of 143,0001. paid to the heads of departments, a reduc tion had been made of 21,0001. In 1815 it appeared that 27,365 persons were employed iu all the depart ments of the public service, and their salaries amounted to 3,768 0001. He had no returns later than those of 1835, and he found that the persons employed had been reduced to 23,500, and till salaries had been reduced 2,786,000/, showing that the reduction in salaries had been in greater proportion than the reduction in a.e number of persons.—(Edear, hear.) If his Hun. Friend's motion had been in conformity with the recommendation of the Committee on the subject—if he had proposed that the salaries paid to public servants should be in con formity with the altered state of things, end with the labour performed, he (Mr. Herries) sould have sup ported it, but it was impossible not to admit that the men to whom he had alluded, the bulk of the public servants, performed their duties with a fidelity as d cor rectness which invited all praise —(Hear, hear)—and ho, therefore, c uld not sanction the motion as regarded such men, and he was more confirmed in the opinion he had expressed when he remembered that, as com pared with France, a fewer number of persons were em ployed in the public departments of this country, and at far less expense.— (Hear, hear.) He f..und, by a report made by the Minister of Finance in France, that vi bile in ihiscountry the revenue was collected at an expense of 61 per cent., the coilk ction of it in France cost 14 per cent., and the saving in this country was attributed by the French Minister to the superior class of the persons ho were employed in the collection. Under the cir cumstances of the ca,e, he felt he could not support the motion of his Hon. Friend. MUNTZ was of opinion that the motion before ,he House was of far greater importance than Hon. Members seemed disposed to c,,nAder it. People throughout the country thought that while so man) were suffering, it was not consistent or lair that the incomes of Mitusters s h ou ld un d ergo no reduction. It was noto rious that all those who had fixed salaries had gained by ne cessaries, lie wanted to eos k ir i lL i t, o mei w , the thongs which had taken place in the prices of ne f jus e a whatuedr presente i h ei principle st i no r c p oc profits and d p : t c c h e t ,, o t mo r continuehasns honesty tradersti h nt ahpie:drr parties workmen h nt. w d n e and wages were not reduced?—(Hear)—and if that were the case, why should not the salaries of the public ser vants also be reduced?—(Hear) The peopha out of doors were taking the present motion as a test of the sin cerity of that flouse, being of opinion, as they were, that the salaries alluded to ought to be reduced in the same proportion that they had been in their incomes. Articles of all kinds had been reduced in price—some of 11 ,, m so much as thirty per cent.; and why should not he salaries of her Majesty's Ministers also be reduced? In his own manwactory he should be ut t:o loss how to ,et; and a Government nvglit be looked upon as a large manufactory.—(A laugh.) lie saw no re4son why the commercial principle should not be applied to it, and salaries of i the servants of the public reduced n a proper proportion.—(tlear, hear.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL said those Hon. Gentlemen who had supported the motion had treated the proposed reduction as being one which it was desirable to make. He did not think, however, that such was the opinion of that House. His Hon. Friend the Member for Mon trose (Mr. Hume) usually laid down the doctrine that the salaries should be reduced to the scale of 1792 and 1793, but he had not ventured upon that argument that night. The Hon. Gentleman who had labt addressed the House (Mr. Muntz) had stated it to be his opinion that they ought to reduce the public salaries in proportion to the reduction which had taken place in the price of other things.—(Hear, hear.) But, in fact, the salaries of the hi=h officers of state were not in the proportion the Hon. Member supposed them to be. The salaries were lower, and the emoluments were lower, than when those high prices ho had referred to ha I been in operation. The Noble Lord then alluded to the proceedings of the Committee in 1831 and 1833, on the subject which was now before the House, and said that the' Committee had fixed the salaries of Ministers below what those salaries were in 1783. The Hon. Gentleman ought to see in what confession he would place the public offices if his motion were carried. Some of them were fixed during the war, and if the motion were acceded to great injustice would be done to many. Let them take, s e e r e e e x t s a r m y p loef, Statethe for • o th f e hi l s io l m t e g aorntiht .mFriend h t i c h h e itw ansoitnqbueiruenjd unjust t o lasttu meddle year, edde and wi t s b al t a n ri e e m s fix n e o d w , and would (Hear, hear.) In his mind the objection made by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Stamford, of the great hardship there would be in lowering salaries of 1001. or 150 L each, atAl that, too, of men who performed arduous duties for those small salaries, was unanswer able. Inquiries were made into the Treasury as well as the Home-office. Within the last two years large re ductions were made in the offices of Stamps and Taxes. and he should be prepared to make any reasonable re ductions proposed; but to say that a general sweep of the kind should be acceded to, he believed the House of Commons would not agree to it. The Hon. Member said he would not touch the law, because the judges took their situation s for life; but in his mind it would be a just principle to do so, because a Judge who accepted an of fice of 5,0001 a year for life should not be exempted, while a clerk with 801. held only de - ring pleasure, should have les salary reduced. The Hon. Gentleman also omitted the army and navy; but if he went into the cost of provisions, of chairs and tables, and beds, he did not see why the military and naval services should be ex empt, and the civil portion of the community not exempt. He believed that such an attempt, if made in the army, would be attend e d w i th extreme danger; and he also be-. lieved that the true way to make a reduction, that the only way to act w i t h economy was, to see that the du• afewprlofp3ouerlapdmerer n ed with r ea l a bili ty . B ut t o m a ke a lead tond t b . t , t m h dr noteei ffi c f t o uo r l t b i i e n e s c o u m as nt e . t a iH x n , ee and li ci f ea r v o be m l de r t th i h e i e d se s u st n w c a reduction o f n, o p o d confusion; and he hoped, therefore, the House would not agree to it. Mr. WODEHOUSE should support the motion. Ha protested against that doctrine which held they should ni t of timer I out ate i° ,otery the giP i° kjee'' lb° iedl of e ca . Cage an d the • THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JULY 17, 1849 do nothing, but leave things of themselves to come to rights. Mr. SPOONER contended it was of no use telling the people what had been done, or g )ing back to other pe riods, I.ke his Rigls.; Hon. Friend the Member for Seam ford, in order to what reductions were made. Since they had changed their commercial policy he thought the privileged classes ought not to be exempt any longer, brit suffer the same reductions with the other portions of the community. Mr. AG;LIONBY believed the motion calculated very much to mislead Hon. Members, and as to what the Hon. Member for Birmingham said almit the eyes of the country being fixed on that motion, he denied it alto gether. He believed the country did not care one far thing about it.—(Oa, oh.) The Hon. Member said that wages were reduced everywhere, and therefore officers of the Crown ought to be reduced also, but he denied that. He denied that any reduction had taken place in wages. He knew that in his own county (Cumberland) no reduc tion had taken place even in the agricultural classcs, for they give the same wages there they gave - for years past. He believed - tlin rcoti,n was not a practical one; that it was too general in its nature, aril he should therefore vote against it. Mr. GOULBZIRN observsd that no class of men de servel mere from Parliament than Honourable Gentle men who tilled the inferior offices in the state, and he should therefore protest against that class being sdected for reduction in their salaries. Li 1821, an address to the Crown was carried in that House with re'erence to the nunb of public otli , ..:ers, and the increase of sala ries since 1`97; minute inquiries were made—a great number of persons were superannuated—and yet his lion. Friend cams down in 1849 to reduce them still further. Mr. COBDEN said that on a former occasion, when the lion. Gentleman brought forward a motion to reduce the salaries of one department, be voted with him, on the understanding that the humbler offices should not be re duced, but now the Hon. Gentleman had gone much fur ther, even to the humble two-penny postmen. Now, he could not be a party to reduce the wages or pay of any man having twelve shillings a week. He would rather augment their pay, and the wages of the agricultural la bourer also, than be a party to reducing it. It he had confined his motion to the higher departments he would have had greater success; but he was new in the field as a financial reformer, and probably ho would have greater success another time by wording his motion better.—(A laugh.) But the salaries of the highest offices were uo.rrniti in this country.—(gear, hear.) Look at the American functionaries. .Had they better statesmen than Webster and Clay in this country? How enormous was the difference in the remuneration they received for their public services. Had we a better di plomatist, apart from his literary character, than Ban croft; and yet he received only 2,0001. per annum, when our ambas.ador at Paris received 10,0001. a year, and in Austria 9,0001. per annum. These were the class of salaries that should be looked at. There was also ano ther class he alluded to, the supernumeraries. There might well be a reduction in their number. In voting for this motion he wished to guard himself against affirming any principle other than this, that every re duction should be effected with a view to the efficient discharge of public duty. He thought the best way of eff'-eting this was not by the sweeping motion before the House, but by subjecting each department to a specific inquiry. To conduct such an investigation they could not have a better tribunal than an independent Com mittee of that House. Mr. PACKE said that by the policy advocated by the Hon. Member for the West Riding and his supporters, the wages of the agricultural labourer had been reduced bel the minimum beyond which he had stated he should be sorry to see wages ;enticed. He should give his curoial support to the motion. Lord J. RUSSELL, in explanation, wished to say, lest he had been misuuderstood, that all he meant to convey was—that when objections had been made to any particular department of the public service he had offered no objection to any inquiry ; as, for instance, when objections were made to the expenses incurred in the Home Department an inquiry had taken place, and a reduction of 3,0001. per annum had been effected. Sir W. CLAY wished to guard himself also from being understood as assenting to the proposition that the salaries of the humbler Government servants should be reduced. He should support the motion upon the ground that some diminution should take place in the large sala ries of the officers in the higher departments. Mr. BRIGHT said he did not at prove of the indiscri minate reduction of salaries. He thought that wages from 12s. to 30s. a week should not be reduced. As to wages generally, he was happy to say that there was a tendency to raise them, which would be materially felt next year, as the Hon. Gentleman would find. As for the question before the House, he should vote for it, and then for the proposed amendment of his Hon. Friend the Member for the West Riding. Sir W. JOLLIFFE said that instead of high wages and low prices, as the Hon. Member for the West Rid ing and his coadjutors had promised years ago, and had again promised to-night, they had now the greatest diffi culty in getting any wages at all.—("Hear," from the Op position.) He thought the public servants of this coun try were overpaid, and the time was come for a sweeping reform. Mr. HENLEY shortly explained that his motion was a true motion, and it related to salaries only, and had nothing to do with wages. The House then divided, when there appeared— For Mr. Henley's motion ... ... 102 Against it 142 Majority for going into Committee --40 SUPPLY. The House then went into Committee of Supply, Mr. BERNAL in the Chair. On the vote of 361,9001. for Ordnance stores, Mr. HUME said he expected some explanation of this vote. What did the Government propose to do with regird to the report of the Committee which had been sitting so 1 'net upon these estimates ? Colonel ANSON said that h. thought that report, able as it was, would be of little use without the evi denc-. The House would find that the recommendations in the report were couched in very light terms, and tended to the effsct that the Government would take theta into consideration during the recess. He could state that they would receive the most deliberate considera tion, without which the Government could not pledge themse lees to carry out these rs commendations. The recommendations that related to the artillery and ord nance, ho thought, could not be acted upon, as they were contrary to the opinions of the Duke of Welling ton, Lord Hardinge, and other experienced officers.— (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") The Committee recom mended that the number of artificers and workmen should be fixed at the rate usual in time of peace, and that no addition should take place without th, express sunctioa of the House. He could only say that, as far as this was possible, consistent with the large works which had to be entered upon, this ought to be done, and he had no doubt that the recommendation would be attended to. Then they recommended that in the colonies in the West Indies and Canada the establish ments should be reduced, especially in the smaller colo nies of the %Vest Indies; the Government could not have any reason for incurring unnecessary expenses in the co lonies—and he theretere had no hesttation in saying that this recommendation might be attended to in certain saes. The Committee, with reference to the largi, amount of stores in hand, had recommended that they should as nearly as possible be reduced to the amount required in time of peace. He did not wonder at tne amount at which these stores were valued, nearly seven millions, should have caused the Committee to make such a recotnniendation, but when the large portion 01 these stoles which had been superseded, rendered useless by modern improvements, was deducted, and those only taken into account which were fit for service, the quan tity would not appear so very large or disproportioned to our actual wants. If any forced sale of these stores were now made, it would be most imprudent, and with regard to the total amount of stores, it would be remembered that during the Government of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) and the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) addi tions had taken place to the artillery, and there was up to the present year nothing in the aspect of affairs to warrant them in making any material reductions.— (Hear, hear.) At the same time he had no doubt that the Government would give their best attention to the subject with the view of effecting every practicable re duction. He might say the same of all other votes which were placed before the House in the same simple form which had been recommended by- experienced per sons connected with the Treasury in 1845. He saw no reference in the summary with respect to the works at the lonian Islands, Bermuda, and other places, referred to on a previous occasion, by the Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark (Sir W. Atloleswortb). On re ferring to the body of the report, however, he found the case referred to first was Bermuda; the sum proposed for this year was 4,548/., certainly not a very large one. The whole sum to be voted for these works, in addition to that already expended, was 60,000/., though it was admitted it might be much more. Lord Grey, in his evidence, was in favour of these works being suspended. But there was a great difference of opinion, as shown in the eviden ce o f p ast governors and officials connected with the colony. That difference of opinion was, however, one reason why in quiry should take place, and he was empowered on the part of the Government to say that such inquiry should be made. The same should apply to the Mauritius, and partly to the loniau Islands, on the:assurance that part of the estimates, late though it was in the session, would be withdrawn, and that orders should be sent out imme diately to stop as far as possible all new works. He hoped that the explanation would be satisfactory to the Hon. Baronet, and he thought it should be so, b ecause, after all, the recommendation of the Committee merely amounted to a recommendation to the executive Go vernment to take the subject into consideration. He bad no wish to detain the House by any remarks of his own, but as the Hon. Member for Montrose had asked what the Government meant to du in the matter of these re commendations, he felt bound to state, on their part, that the Government were prepared to give their best con sideration to the subject, and to lay revised estimates be fore the House next year; and if these estimates did not meet the views of the Hon. Member for Montrose, or the Hon. Member for the %Vest Riding, they could then take objections to them. Before_ he sat down, he would just mention that the Government had already made a re duction of 320,000/. on the estimates of this year, and he hoped the lion. Member would accept that as an earnest of the desire to make every possible reduction. Mr. HUME said the Gallant Colonel had made a long statement, but had not answered the question, what was the number of the artillery? He was glad he h a d papers before him, because his figures would be right. He found that the charge for the ordnance was 1 ,429,6001. in 1834-5, while in 1848.9 it had swelled up to 2,827,0001., or double the amount. The Committee of 1828 had re commended a reduction of the number of artillery, but instead of that he found that the number had been es n• stantly and gradually augmenting until from 8 369 they amounted up to upeards of 14,000. He wanted sumo explanation of this fact. They were told they had 80 batteries in this country. Why, bless his sotil, what did they want with batteries in a country were the people were all obedient to the law.—(Hear, hear.) They had asked for explanation of this in the Committee, but none had been given. Then there was another point, the number of officers on the department had been aug mented without consulting the House, according to the recommendation of the Committee of 1828. But in doing this, they had appointed only senior and high-paid officers, while the complaints of their own officers in the colonies was that there was a deficiency of inferior offi cers, and that non-commissioned officers had to be ap pointed to do the duties. Under these circumstances, he hoped that the explanation he asked for would be given. Lord J. RUSSELL said the Hon. Member had first csketl his Hon. and Gallant Friend what the Govern ment meant to do with respect: to the recommendations, and now lie complained that he bad not told him how many artillery there would be. His Hon. and Gallant Friend was prepared to have told him that on Thursday night, so that it appeared they might as well have pne on with the estimates them —(Hear, hear.) He took upon himself the responsibility- of adopting the sugges• lion of the Mater-General of the Ordnance both as re gards the increase of the artillery, and the manner in which it was carried out, and he was glad to find the recomrnondations of the Committee so fully borne out by the G .vorninent. Mr. HUME, while he agreed that the artillery ought to be an efficient force, contended that it should be pro vrtioned to the infantry and the requirements of the Stato. Instead of addin, two alditional battalions, the proper c ,urse to have adopted would have been to in crease the number of MPH in the existing corps if that increase were demanded by the state of the country, which he denied. lie believed it would be absolutely necessary to check the expenditure which had grown up during later years, and he entered his protest against the utter recklessaess which was manifested in maintaining what could not be otherwise regarded than as war establishments. Captain BOLDER() considered, looking at the effi cient state of the artillery service in other countries, hat the time had arrived when they ought to increase the artillery of this country. The French had one gun for every 300 men, while we had but one gun for every 750 men. Mr. HUME thought that if justice were done the people no necessity would exist for keeping up the large war establishment now maintained. The vote was then agreed to. The sum of 151,6501. to complete the amount neces. sary for Commissariat and Barrack supplies. Mr. HUME said chat since the year 1838 this sum had been nearly doubled, and he had beard no argument ad vanced for such an incresse. Colonel ANSON explained that the additional number of men employed in the service, of course required an increased sum for commissariat supplies. After a few words from Colonel PEEL, The vote was agreed to. The sum of .15,8511. to defray the expense of the Ordnance-office. Mr. COBDEN protested against the further conside ration of the estimates at that late hour, after twelve hours' sitting. The subject was too important to be lightly discussed, and he suggested an adjournment of the subject. Lord J. RUSSELL could not consent to postpone ment, the more particularly as they could not resume the consideration of these estimates before Friday night. Mr. COBDEN pressed for postponement, adding that the country would not be satisfied with the Legislature voting away large sums of money at midnight without serious consideration. Mr. V. SMITH advocated a revision of the Ordnance Board, which was by no means an efficient body, in ac cordance with the suggestions of the Committee of 1849. Mr. HUME said, if anything could prove the impro priety of their proceeding with the estimates at the pre sent late hour, it was the speech of the Hon. Gentleman who bad just addressed them. There was a feeling out of doors that the Board should be altogether abolished; and if there was not a disetbsion in the present session, there would. be no change till next year, and he would .herefore suggest that the Committee should be ad journed till Thursday. Lord J. RUSSELL—With reference to the suggestion of the Hon. Member to adjourn the Committee, he did not see that the adjournment till that day would enable .he House to come to a better conclusion on the esti mates. Mr. MILES was in favour of the adjournment. After a few words from Mr. FOX MAULE, Sir W. MOLESW ORTH said it seemed quite im possible they could then go through the estimates. It was his intention on the seventh vote to bring under consideration the cases of Bermuda, the Mauritius, and the lonian Islands, and as his doing so would occupy some time, and as he would expect some explanations, he did not see the possibility of their now proceeding. After some discussion, in which Mr. HORSMAN, Lord JOHN RUSSELL, and others took part, Mr. HORSMAN moved that the Chairman should report progress, when strangers were ordered to with draw. It appeared, however, that the motion was not pressed to a division, and on being readm itted we found— Mr. COI3DEN addressing the house. Ho said the Honourable Member for Montrose had left the House in consequence of the conduct of Ministers persisting in proceeding. Common sense, decency, and jus tice forbade them going on any further that night, and ho should therefore move that the Chairman should re port progress. Mi. BERNAL.—Does the Hun. Member mean to divide the fit,use ? Mr. COBDEN— . -Certainly. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House divided, when there appeared— For the motion ... ... 14 Against it ... 107 Majority against the motion ... —93 Upon the vote being put, Mr. KERSHA W moved that the Chairman report progress._ _ Lord J. RUSSELL—If the Hon. Gentleman will allow this vote to pass, I shall not proceed further to night.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. KERSHAW, however, having intimated his in tention to persiit in dividing, Lord J. RUSSELL said, if Hon. Gentlemen meant to take such a course, however small their minority — (Hear, bear)—he thought it would be best to postpone the vote. He would, therefore, put them for Wednes day, in the hope that Hon. Gentlemen with Bills for that day (of which there were not many) would con sent to allow the Supply to come on, and he would endeavour to make an arrangement on those Bills on Another day. The House then resumed, and the report was received. On the order of the day, Encumbered Estates Bill (consideration of Lords' amendments), Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL hoped Government would not press the Bill through with any haste. It was quite evident the session would last longer than had been ex pected after the postponement of the supply. Lord J. RUSSELL said, he proposed to consider the Bill to-morroir at tar, Ire o'clock, as the amendments had been generally seen by Members, and had not been se riously objected to. Colonel DUNNE moved that the House should not sit at twelve o'clock to-morrow, and said he would di vide the House on it. Lord J. RUSSELL informed the lion. Member he could not do so, as other orders of the day were already fixed for the meeting of the llouse.—(Hear, hear.) Ile would not object to take the Bill on Thursday, at twelve o'clock, if the [lon. Member wished.—Agreed to. ATHLONE TO GALWAY RAILWAY BILL. On the order of the day for the House going into Committee on this Bill, Mr. F. FRENCH requested the Government to post pone the Committee until there was a fuller attendance of Irish Members. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that at such a period of the session these postponements were most injurious and could serve no object, particularly in case of a Bill like the present, which had the consent of both sides of the House. Major BLACKBALL also urged a postponement, as many Irish Members who wished to extend the measure had gone away under the impression it would not be brought forward that night. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed it would be impossible to extend that Bill at least.— (Hear.) No Bill for the benefit of Ireland could be carried if this course of postponing measures was to be pursued night after night.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. O'FLAHERTY begged the Hun. Member (Mr. French) not to oppose the wish of his own county, to let the measure pass. Mr. F. FRENCH denied that the county he repre sented or the baronies to be affected by the Bill were favourable to it. The House then went into Committee, and several clauses were agreed to, when Mr. F. FRENCh rose to move a proviso to the effect that the money advanced by the barony of Gal way should be repaid before any division of profits took place. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER op posed the proviso, on the ground that it was con trary to the arrangement on which the Bill had been introduced. After some conversation, in the course of which Sir J. Burke, Sir P. Nugent, and several other Honourable Gentlemen recommended the Hon. Member for Ros common to withdraw his proviso, and expressed their belief that the arrangement proposed by the Bill would be advantageous to Galway and the adjoining districts, The proviso was negatived without a division. The remaining clauses of the Bill were then agreed to. The Relief of Diatress,›lreland (No. 2), Bill passed through Committee. The House, in Committee, on the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, agreed to a resolution authorising an advance from the Consolidated Fund, not exceeding 50,0001., part of previous repay ments, for building workhouses in Ireland. On the motion of Lord ASHLEY, the Nuisance Re moval and Diseases Prevention Bill was read a second time. A Bill to amend the Metropolitan Sewers Act was brought in by Lord EBRINGTUN, and read a first time. The other orders of the day being disposed of, the House, at Half-past Two o'clock this morning adjourned until noon. Catesby Abbey, one of the most important and in teresting estates in Northamptonshire, is to be submitted to public sale by Mr. Robins, at Dave ntr y , on Thursday next. The difficulty of disposi n g of the p ro p ert y in its entire state has induced the p ro p rietor to divide the estate into several lotr. Catesb y Abbey, with the manors, village, cemetery, avenue of elms, end two farms, altogether about 300 acres, forming the principal This hc on lot, offering irresi stible attractions to the capitalist. The outlying farms will be submitted singly , and m uch competition ppertoiptieorntyiLielxsphecotweds allin the the neeviigdhenbcoeurohf ne neighbourhood. with the earliest pried of iegliek history. PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS. HOUSE OF LORDS, JULY 16. POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL. MINORITY. DfARUISES. Grey BARON/. Clanricarde Ilchester Auckland Lansdowne Mlnto Byron EARLS. Morley Camoys Besborough St. Germans Campbell Carlisle Shaftesbury Eddisbury Cowper Strafford Elphinstone Essex Suffolk Erskine Forttscue , Yarborough Lyttelton Granville Saye and Sale LIST OF PAIRS. Earl of Gosford Earl of Erne Marquis of Conyngham Lord Gray Earl Spencer Earl of Eglinton Lord de Manley Duke of Richmond Lord Foley Lord Southampton Earl of &Hand Lord Kenyon Bishop of Worcester Marquis of Exeter Marquis of Breadalbane Esrl Kinnoull Lard Poltimore Earl Cardigan Lord Suleley Earl of Jersey M a rquis of Winchester Lord Beauchamp Arehhi,h,p r4C-anterbury • - Earl Digby Earl of Effingham Lord l'olwarth Earl of Leiti ho Lord Brougham Lord Bateman - Earl Talbot • Earl of Oxford Viscount Com' ermere Lord Milford Marquis of Ely Lord Lilford Lord Wyliford Lord Carrington Earl of Aylesford Lord Crewe Lord de Lisle Duke of Norfolk Duke of Beaufort Marquis of Anglesea Viscount Sydney Earl Dude Lord Sondes Marquis of Donegal Earl of Glengall Lord Colborne Earl of Lonsd.ile Bishop of Manchester Earl Mansfield Bishop of Hereford Marquis of Hertford Lord llowden Duke of Buccleuch ( From the Votes and Proceedinys of the House of Commons./ MONDAY, JULY 16. • SUPPLY. Order for Committee read ; Motion made and Question proposed, " That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair:"— Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word " That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words " a reduction of ten per cent. to be made in all salaries in the Ordnance Department, and in all other departments of Go vernment at home and abroad," instead thereof:—Question put, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question." The House divided:-- MAJORITY-AYES, 149. Abdy. T. N. Forster, Mathew Philips, Sir G. R. Adair, R. Shaito Fortescue, Chichester Pi nney, W. Aglionby, H. Fox, Richard M. Power, Dr. Anson, Colonel Freestun, Colonel Price, Sir R. Armstrong, Sir A. French, F. Raphael,:Alexander Armstrong, It. B. Goulburn, Henry Reid, Colonel Ashley, Lord Granby, Marquis of Repton, a. W. J. Bagsha N, John Greene, Thomas Reynolds, John Baines, M. T. Grey, Sir George Ricardo, Osman Baring, Sir F. Grosvenor, Lord R. Rice, E. R. Beckett, W. Ilaggitt, F. R. Rich, Henry Bellew, R. M. Ilallyburton, Lord Richards, Richard Berkeley, Captain Hanmer, Sir J. Romilly, Sir John Berkeley, Henry F. Hawes, Benjamin Rumbold, C. E. Berkeley. C. L. G. Hay,.Lord John Russell, Lord J. Bernal, Ralph Hay - ter, W. G. Russell, Eduard S. Illackall, S. W. Heathcoat, John Russell, F. C. Blake, Martin J. Heneage, E. Rutherfurd, A. Bouverie, E. P. Ilerries, John C. Sanders, J. 1 Bowles, Admiral Heywood, James Scully, Francis Boyle, Colonel Hobhouse, Sir John Shaito, It. 1). Brand, Thomas Hobhouse, T. B. Shell, R. L. Brockman, E. D. Hope, Alexander Shelburne, Earl of Brotherton, J. Howard, C. W. Smith, Vernon Brown, W. Jervis, Sir John Somers, J. P. . Browne, It. D. Keppel, George T. Somerville, Sir W. Burke, sir Thomas Labouchcre, Henry Spearman, 11. J. Butler, P. S. Langston, J. H. Stanton, W. H. Callaghan, D. Lascelles, W. S. Stuart, Lord J. Carter, J. B. Lewis, G. C. Sturt, 11. G. Cavendish, C. C. M'Cullagh, W. T. Talbot, C. It. Childers; J. W. M'Gregor, John Thompson, Colonel Clerk Sir George Marsh 11, J. G. Thornely, T. Colebrooke, Sir T. Matheson, Colonel Tollemache, F. J. Cowper, W. F Maule, Fox Tufnell, H. Craig, W. G. Melgund, Viscount Turner, George Darner, Colonel Morison, Sir W. Vil:iers, Visconti. Davie, Sir Henry Mostyn, E. Wellesley. Lord C. Denison, J. E. Newport, Visct. Williamson, Sir H. Dodd, George Nichol!, John Wilson, James Duff, G. S. O'llaherty, Anthony Wilson, Matthew Duncan, Viscount Ogle, S. C. Wood, Sir Charles Dun4as, Admiral Owen, Sir John Wortley, J. S. Dundas, Sir David Paget, Lord A. Wrightson, W.B. Ebrington, Viscount Paget, Lord Clarence Wyvlll, M. Elliot, John E. Paget, Lord,George Young, Sir John Enfield, Lord Palmerston, Vis. Evans, J. Parker, John Fergus, John Fatten, W. =M=s. Ferguson, Sir R. Peel, Colonel Hill, Lord Mantle Fordyce, A. D. Peel, Frederick Grey, 11. W. MINORITY-NOES, 102. Adair, Hugh E. E wart, William Mowatt, Francis Alcock, Thomas Fagan, William Mullings, J. R. Archdall, Captain Farnham, E. B. Muntz, G. F. Bailey, Joseph Fellowes, E. Norreys, Sir D. Barrington, Viscount forbes, W. Nugent, sir Percy Bennet, Philip Fuller, A. E. Packe, C. W. Beresford, William Goddard, A. L. Palmer, Robert Blackstone, W. Gooch, E. S. Pechell, Captain Blair, Stephen Gwyn, Howel Perfect, Robert Blewitt,`Reginald Hardcastle, J. A. Pigot, Sir R. Bright, ,John Harris, Richard Pilkington,:JameS Brisco, M. Hastie, Alexander Portal, Melville Broadley, Henry Headlam, T. E. Salwey, Colonel Buck, L. W. Heald, James Sell°Wield, William Burghley, Lord Henry, Alexander Smith, John B. Burrell, Sir C. Heyworth, Lawrence Sotheron, T. H. S. Buxton, Sir E. Hildyard, R. C. Spooner. R. Carew, W. P. .. . _... Hill, Lord E. St . - anley, E. H. Chichester, Lord J. Hodgson, W. N. Strickland. Sir G. Clay, James Holland, Robert Stuart, J. Clifford, Henry M. Hood, Sir A. Taylor, T. E. Cobbold, John C. Hume, Joseph Tollemache, John Cobden, R. Jolliffe, Sir IV. 11. Tyrell, Sir J. Codrington, Sir W. Kershaw, James Vivian, J. E. Conyngham, Lord A. Knox, Colonel Waddington, 11. S. Currie, Henry Lennard, T. B. Wall, C. B. Deedes, W. Locke, Joseph IValinsley, Sir J. Devereux, John T. Lockhart, W.' Walter, John Dickson, Samuel Lopes, Sir Ralph Wawn, J. T. Disraeli, B. Lushington, Charles Willcox, Brodie Duckworth, Sir J. Meaginr, Thomas Willoughby, Sir H. Duncan, George Martin, John Wodehouse, E. Edwards, Henry Miles, William TELLERS. Egerton, W. T. Mitchell, T. A. Henley, J. W. Ellis, John Morris, David Newdegate, N. HOUSEHOLD WALLS. (From Eliza Cook's Journal.) We talk of " old familiar faces," And love them warmly and sincerely; But there are old familiar places That cling to us almost as dearly. Say, who among us, with a heart Where feeling's hnly sunshine falls, Can bear, untouched, to turn and part From even long known household walls? Walls, that have echoed to our pleasure, Walls, that have hidden us in grief, Been shaken by our dancing measure, And garnished by our Christmas leaf. The chairs, that we have drawn around The twilight fire, with friends beside us, When in that tiny world WO found The peace the larger world denied us. The table, where our arm has leaned, And held our brow in pensive thinking, The cosey curtain, that has scr(•ened When north-east draughts have found us shrinking; Oh! are there not some hearts, that ever A tint of love from these can borrow; And when they say " Good bye," can never Take the last look without deep sorrow? And how the spirit learns to talk To some old tree, or whitethorn hedge, Or worship some poor garden walk, As though 'twere bound by sacred pledge. Oh! many a throbbing heart will yearn To household wall, or old green lane, And many a farewell glance will turn, nalf dimmed, to peep just once again. At sense familiar noteless thing, Which we have dwelt with, till it seems A feather in the gentle wing, That nestles ail our happiest dreams. Oh! love, thou hast a noble throne In bosoms where thy life-light falls, So warm and wide, that they have sighed At leaving even household walls. Euzs Coos. CITY ELECTION. The death of Mr. Mattison is not Th li e liely, vacant we s e ea p r wee hend, to lead to a secen The d contest. fancy, is "bespoke. " hospitality, present Chief Magistrate, has been while g ratifying his own taste . for at the same time, creating fur himself "hosts of friends. It will be the most natural thing in the world that ho should be immediately a-ked to become one of the City's representatives; and we cannot imagine that he will hesitate a moment in accepting the offer. The state of the registration, owing to a certain strange de• cision in the Revising Barrister's Court, of which we have recently spoken, is much against the Conservatives, and will remain so until the new register comes into force in November next. But apart from this, they, like all other parties in the City, have largely partaken of the Mansion-house festivities, and, except a clear obligation of duty were shown, would necessarily feel a repugnance to oppose the natural elevation of a gentle man at whose hospitable board they had often passed a pleasant hour. We regard, therefore, the election of Sir James Duke as already certain. Nor can there be anything to regret in the change. Of the deceased Member this is not the time to utter a word of censure; but we may st least remark that his successor will fall behind him in no recommendation, while, to our taste, he will have the advantage in several particulars.— Herald. The death of Mr. Pattison having caused a vacancy in the representation of the city of London, at an early hour yesterday morning a requisition was in extensive circulation, and signed by a large number of the most eminent and influential of the City constituency. No other candidate was announced, and we have no doubt that, from his well-known popularity, the Lord Mayor will be elected without opposition.—Clirenicle. —_—_ VICTORIA HARBOUR OF REFUGE. TO TILE LOYAL INHABITANT% oF wEYNoIITH AND PORTLAND. Weymouth, July 14, 180, The Worshipful the Mayor (Andrew Lithgow, E sq ) has with much courtesy communicated to me, priv R ate t statingthe first i nte lligence, throug h Colonel Prees tun , M t h at his Royal Highness Prince Albert will lay .l . stone of the Victoria Harbour of Refuge, on Wednes day, the 2 5 th day of July, 1849, of w ill be given. which publi c not i ce JOHN OJilulNy IHARVEY.S, 89 : Weymouth, MEMORANDUM.—The Mayor of e) m a y received o uttt an d oCffiapcitaalinletAltearus in niug, Portland, ha ve this d. corroboration of the ahoy*. JeaN HARVEY. - - --- FRENC H PLAYS, ST; JAMES'S THEATRE.—Their Royal Highnesses the I)uke and Duchess of Cambridge, accompanied by her Serene highness the Hereditary Princess of Mecklenburgh Strelitz, and attended by the Baron Knesebeck, honoured this theatre with their pre sence last evening. UNIVERSITY or LONDON.—The number of candi dates for the matriculation this year was unusually large, amounting to 166. - COURT CIRCULAR. OSBORNE, MONDAY. The Queen and Prince walked at an early hour this morning. ilis Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, the Princess Royal, and the younger members of the Royal Family, walked in the grounds of Osborne. The Royal dinner party yesterday included her Royal Highness the Ductless of Moucester, the Lady Georgiana Bathurst, the Hon. Colonel Liddell, and Ge neral %Wimps. Their Royal Highnesses the Duchess of Cambridge and the Hereditary Grand Duchess of Mecklenburg Strelilz visited her Royal Highness the Duchess of Kent on Sunday, at Clarence-house, St - James's. Their royal Highnesses the Duchess of Cambridge and the Hereditary Grand Duchess of Mecklenburg Strelitz honoured the performance of the French play► with their presence yesterday evening. Mr. Yates had an interview with Earl Grey yesterday, at the Colonial•offce. Mr. C. Lushington, M.P., art] Mr. Robert Irgbsm (Directors), Mr. Hardwick (Solicitor), and Mr. Marsh (Secrec.ry), a deputation from the National Provident lestitution, had an interview with the Chancellor of the Exehcqu , r yesterday, at his official residence in Down rug -street. The deputation was r.ccompatried by Mr. John Wood, Chairman of the Board of Inland Revenue. Dispatches were sent off lasi' evening from the Colo- Mai-office, for the Governors of the West India Colonies. The marriage of Lord Foley with the Lady Mary Fitzsl-in Howard, daughter of the Duke and Duchess of Norftlk, was solemnized yesterday evening, in the Chapel Royal, St. James's. SPORTING INTELLIciENCE. TATTERSALL'S.—YESTERDAY. GOODWOOD STAKES. 10 to 1 agst Mr. Roles Collingwood, 6 yrs,9st 81b 11 to 1 agst Mr. Parr's Van Diemen, 3 yrs, sst 61b 12 to 1 agst Captain Wrather's Maid of MashaM, 4 yrs, 7st 91b—taken 14 to 1 agst Lord Exeter's Tophana, 4 yrs, Est 81b-= taken 14 to 1 agst Mr. E. R. Clack's Giselle, 6 yrs, 6st 121 b 14 to 1 apt Duke of Rutland's Fire-eater, 3 rs,6st3lb 20 to 1 agst Mr. Blake na Bacchanalian, 4 yrs, 55t 131 b—taken 20 to 1 agst Lord Eglinton's Plaudit, aged, 7st 71b ' Collingwood and Tophana were the only horses backed with any spirit; the former was in great force, and it the close of the betting was first favourite. GOODWOOD CUP. 5 to 2 agst Lord Stanley's Canezou, 4 yrs, Bst 111b— take 3 to 1 3to 1 agst Mr. Powney's T Hero, 6 yrs, lost—t 4 to I agst Colonel Peel's Tadmor, 3 yrs, 7st 41b— take 9 to 2 15 to 1 agst Baron Maltzhan's Standard, 4 yrs, 74 1 lb—taken 20 to 1 apt Sir G. Heathcote's Black Eagle, 3 yrs, 7st 41b—taken ST. LEGER. 5 to 4 on Lord Eglinton's Flying Dutchman—taken 1,500 to 50 agst Mr. Pedley's Chatterer—taken 5,000 to 50 agst Sir J. Hawley's Vatican—taken DERBY, 1850. 30 to 1 agst Mr. Gordon's William the Conqueror—t 30 to 1 apt Sir R. Pigot's Moultan—taken 40 to 1 agst Baron Rothschild's Decoy colt—taken 40 to 1 agst Mr. Pedley's Sweetheart—taken 40 to 1 apt Mr. Gannon's Deicoon 50 to 1 apt Lord Eglinton's Seneca—taken DERBY, 1851. 5,000 to 75 agst Lord Chesterfield na Brother to Drakelow 10,000 to 150 apt Mr. R. Lacey's Aristippus 5,000 to 75 agst Lord Eglinton's Bonnie Dundee 5,000 to 50 agst Mr. Howard's Bobadil 5,000 to 50 apt Mr. Howard's Grecian 5,000 to 50 agst Lord Stanley's Storm h,OOO to 50 apt Mr. Powney's Lamartine 5,000 to 50 agst Sir J. B. Mill's Mungo 5,000 to 50 agst Sir J. Hawley's The Confessor 5,000 to 50 apt Sir J. Hawley's The Ban 5,000 to 50 apt Sir J. Hawley's Balsamo 5,000 to 50 apt Sir J. Hawley's Miss Twickenham colt 5,000 to 50 ugst Sir J. Hawley's Testatrix colt 5,000 to 50 apt Sir J. Hawley's Haitoe colt 5,000 to 50 apt Mr. St. George's Bro. to Chanticleer —t SUTTON PARK RACES.—MONDAY. The Sutton Park Stakes of 10 soya. each, h ft, and 25 added. About five furlongs. Mr. Stebbings's Actress, 2 yrs Mr. Stewart's Wilmont, 2 yrs 2 The Birmingham Stakes of 20 sou. each, h ft, and 100 added. Twice round and a distance. Mr. Critchley's Sir Henry Hardinge, 3 yrs ... Mr. B. Green's Lammermoor, 3 yrs ... Miss Bunney and Skudar also started. The Innkeepers' Plate of 25 soya., added to a Sweep- stakes of 3 soya. each. once round and a distance, was won in two heats by Mr. Richards's Jack Cade, beating six others. ... 1 ... 2 SONNET TO LAMARTINE. ELECTED IN JULY, 1849, BY TWO DEPARTMENTS- LOIRET—SAONE ET LOIRE. Friend of thy country ! to her honour true; The bold asserter of each sacred right; Guardian of freedom! - Thou, whose genius bright In her extremist need impassioned As, to her aid, its blest resources drew, With fervid eloquence, t' instruct, delight, Cunvinee, control, thro' Revolution's night, As, with Promethean splendours, more renew: It e'er devotion, courage, probity, Urfl►nching energy, undying worth, Demand returns of gratitude on earth; Oh, Lamartine! thy name exalted high! On thy fair brow the bay with laurel blend; (This the reward of MAN! the other Ileav'n shall send) J. L. CHISWICK GARDENS.-11ORTICITLTURAL SOCIETY/ ‘ E V X e li d i ti n e ' S T d l .l " ;l — abt, Ti gu e s x et t i re t ni hi e s C i c i i n v e b n ;al S ed ot a . TtihsteoCwreaattiches July fete to be telly attended. Tee exhibition of fruits were truly superb. Much curiosity was manifest, d about some strawberries, named by the growers " Eleanor." They were indeed very surprising both as to size and colour. The growers were Messrs. Myatt and Sons, of Deptford, and Mr. Sheppherd, also of Deptford. The council awarded to each the certificate of merit. They were grown upon Roberts's Registered Horticultural Tiles. We found several hundreds of these tiles in the strawberry garden of the society. They had been em ployed for rearing those early specimens of this fruit. The tiles are made in two parts, elevated upon feet, chick raises them about two inches from the ground. The two parts are brought together round the stem of the strawberry plant, and the fruit rests on the top of the tiles. The ripe fruit is thus protected against the effects of heavy rains, or continuous wet, and also against slugs, &c., The moisture required by the plant is also retained, while the substance of the tiles absorb the heat of the sun, and thus greatly accelerate the ripening process. The exhibitors be:ore mentioned attributed their success in obtaining their fruit in perfection to their having employed this ingenious contrivance, which is really worth the attention of all cultivators of this fruit, after such publicly attested facts of its value. Mr. John Roberts, of 34, Esstch' ap, City, is the inventor, who has also introduced a new forth of tile for rearing melons, and another for accelerating the growth of grapes in the open air. His illustrated circular should be in the hands of all horticulturists. BALLOON ASCENT FROM WIEBBACIL—Mr. Gypson, the c, lebrated aeronaut, made a splendid ascent with his magnificent balloon, from spacious premises near the gasworks in this town, on Thursday last, the 12th, accompanied by a gentleman of the neighb.iurhood. The weather was remarkably fine, and the assemblage of persons to witness the ascent ci i i nm ain er i ) n se g . thTeh bondse gi gigantic a x t iht that a machine t left the earth, as her to terra firma, and soared aloft in a clear blue sky, till she became a mere speck in the distance. The intrepid aeronauts accomplished a safe descent at Inganston Fen, in the direction of Stamford, a trifle short of 20 miles from the place of ascent. Apart from the inte rest created by the ascent some novel machinery attached to the car was a gnat point of attraction, it gave the car of the aeronautical barque somewhat the appearance of the nautical steamer, having several small sails oe paddle-wheels on each side the car, both sides of which were worked by ingenious machinery in the centre, en tirely under the control of the aeronaut. Mr. Gypson candidly admits that in the teeth of a breeze the ma chinery would have difficulties to contend with, but at high elevations where calms generally pre vail the assistance to an aeronaut would be great. Should be be approaching the coast, as was the case with the celebrated Major Money, when he descended in the sea at Lowestoft, near Yar mouth, theft the apparatus could be worked to advan tage, and the course of the balloon steered away from the fluid element; at all events it is 614 enterprising scientific step out of the long beaten track of aeronau tics, an effort made to a dvance the science of aeros. tation, which we hope time and perseverance may con siderably improve. MELANCHOLY FATE OF AN AERONAUT:. (FURTHER PARTlCULAn9.)—Considerable anxiety has and Swansea through prevailed w i nee t k he re v g i a c r in d i i, ty }g o t r h e e a f r a d t i e ff Green (not Mr. Charles Green of Vauxhall celebrity), who it is feared perished by falling into the us atter an ascent ho had made in a balloon from the former town (Cardiff) on Monday lust. The balloon was the pro perty of Mr. Wadman, of Bristol, who had been an nounced to make the ascent, but throug h illness was prevented. Mr. Green un d ertook the trip, and departed from terra firma about six o'clock in the even i n g, a vast concour se o f persons witnessing the ascent. The machine, which was of large dim e n s i ons , conta i n i ng 700 perfect]}' square yard s o f s ilk , and requiring 70,000 gallons of gas t.) i ate Its course on t leavingi n it, was perfc h y e before earth N lr was Green over got th e into town the n car. the seeing to its y sound and secure, Mr. Wadman direction of Petiarth, Mr. Green liberating a parachute with a cat attached to it as he passed over. Soon after its course changed, the wind walling the machine up the Bristol Channel, towords the Monmouthshire Moors. and was in the course of an hour or so lost sight of by the inhabitants of Cardiff. The next morning, about five o'clock, the balloon was discovered at Wedmore, in Somersetshire, lying on the ground, about three parts filled with gas, and not at all injured. No one was with it, but in the car a coat, a pair of boots, and a pocket handkerchief were found. Inquiries have been made along that pact of the coast after Mr. Green, but not the least intelligence can be elicited of his lute. At dusk on Monday evening, the coast-guard, Mr. eleven son, perceived a balloon cr ossin g the Severn from the direction of Cardiff. It was close to the sea when first observed, and ono party states that he saw it dragging through the sea, and suddenly ascend to a great altitude. This leads to a supposition that Mr. Green, finding him self in the sea, pulled off his boots and clothes, and abandoned the balloon, endeavouriug to save himself by swimming, but perished ia the effort.