The Sun. — London, England, 1849-05-08 00:00:00

'l. 13' . I SICILY. obligation by the sanction of • reli,:-.1; aed, - secondly, to exclude certain persons nho declined acceding to this m terms of the oath or affiratioe. Was it to 'he said that any human being, by ref ask , . tJ raili when about performing a duty, was to be iFvested f thc gation under which he undertook to perform that seleniii duty ? Would anybody say that an oath was not as binding and as strong in the case of a Jew a; anybody else ? The Jew said he believed in an oath, and pio fessed his readiness to give to his obligation the sanction of religion. They eat, drank, and dealt psi h the Jew, and he wanted to know why it was that they had not the Jew among them?—(H-Ar, hear.) In all probability they would find the Honourable Member for Ox ford to-morrow citing the authority of the Jew as a lawgiver on the marriage questi..n. He should like to know how that inconsistency could be got rid of. He asked the common sense of the House and of the country—he was fond of appealing to the com mon sense of both—what there was in the man, or in the men, who believed in.the Decalogue , to prevent him or t h im from becoming . a Member of the British lesgielature ? Jews were not aliens. There were many Englishmen professing the religion of the Je v. They were in that character honest men. Tiny professed that morality which Englishmen approved of and learned, and he could not uulerstand on what prin ciple or what reason it was contended they should not Le admitted to Parliament. He denied that the enact ment of the up asure would in the slightest degree un hriatianise , he House of Commons, and believing that the Noble Lord at the head of the Government hed fol. 1. w,d a wise course in bringing ferward the Bill, he should give it his hearty and cordial support. After a few words in ex2lanation from Mr. GOUL BURN the House divided, when there appear& d For the second reading - 278 Against it Majority . -93 The Bill was then read a second awe, and ordefed to be e.)mcnittee. . Mr. GOITLBURN inquired what course it was in tended adopting tomorrow with regard to the public busiutss ? Would the adjourned debate on the mar riage question, or notices of motion, have the prece dence ? Mr. S. WORTLEY hoped that Honourable Gentle men having notic-s of motion would allow the adjourned debate to take precedence. He appealed particularly to the 11 or. Members for Newcastle and Longford. Mr. HEADLAM observed that his notice of motion for leave to introduce a Bill rendering lawful the forma tion of joint-stock banks, based upon the principle of a limited liability of shareholders, stood first on the list. Jf he were allowed to bring in the Bill without oppesi lion, he was quite willing that the debate should be taken on the second reading. Major BLACKALL said if it were the wish of the Howe, he should not interpose his motion, prov.ded that other Hon. Members having notices on the paper would also give way, to &low the adjourned debate on the marriage question to be resumed. Mr. MACGREGOR couldnot consent to postpone his motion respecting the incorporation of Kensington, Chelsea, Fulham, and Hammeromith, into a Parini ttealary borough. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, - he. intended opposing the introduction of the Hon. Member for Newcastle's Bill, and unless there was a decided ex pression of opinion by the House aiverse to that course, he should persevere in his intention. Mr. S. WORTLEY thought the opposition to the Bill might be reserved till the second reading, in order to allow the debate on the Marriage Bill to be proceeded with. Mr. G. THOMPSON, in reply to Sir R. Peel, said he had already expressed his intention not to stand in the way of the adjourned donate on the Marriage Bill. LAND IMPROVEMENT AND DRAINAGE (IRE. LAND) BILL. The report upon this Bill was brought up and re ceived, as also was the report of the Committee of Supply. The Incumbered Estates (Ireland) Bill, and the Estates basing (Ireland) Bill were read a second time, and ordered to be committed. GOULBURN wished that the Hon. Member for Glasgow would say positively whether be could or would not give way to-morrow. Mr. MACGREGOR said he should positively not give way.—(Great laughter.) ACCOUNTS OF TURNPIKE TRUSTS (SCOT LAND) BILL. Mr. C. LEWIS moved the second reading of this Bill. Mr. FORBES MACKENZIE declared his intention of dividing the House against it. The galleries were cleared for a division, but none toke place, and the Bill was read a second time. LUNATICS (SCOTLAND) BILL. The LORD ADVOCATE moved the second reading of this Bill. Mr. F. MACKENZIE moved, as an amendment, that the House should adjourn. A division took place, when the numbers were— For the adjournment ... 24 For the second reading ... ... Majority .. ... . • -43 PUBLIC - HEALTH (SCOTLAND) BILL. On our return to the gallery we found Mr. C. BRUCE opposing the second reading of this Bill. He wishtd it to be postponed to a more fitting opportunity. The LORD ADVOCATE did not think that a Bill precisely on the plan of the law of England would have been opposed at all. He did not object to a postpone ment, it such were dc•sirable, but he should leave it to the House to d( tide whether any reason had been shown for postponement. After a short conversation, Sir GEORGE GREY said, that if any Honourable Member otjected to the principle of the Bill, ample time would be given before the Bill was pressed on through the House. Mr. OSWALD wished that time should be given for the public opinion of Scotland to be known. Mr. AGLIONBY supported the second reading. Ob jections to the 11111 might be taken in Committee. Mr. CHAR LERIS hoped that if the second reading was taken now, the Committee would not be hurried for ward. There were nine Scotch Bills on the table, and the people of Scotland were quite alarmed at the legis lative fecundity of the Lord Advocate.—(A laugh.) The LORD ADVOCATE reminded the House that he was under a pledge from last session to force on tho Bill tut fast as possible. It contained no new principle whatever, and 'he hoped the House would consent to pass the measure through its present, stage. After a few words from Colonel bIIBTHORP, Mr. A. HASTIE supported' the motion, approving as he' did the of the provisions of•the Bill. Mr. DUNCAN expressed himself favourable to the Bill. . . Mr. F. MACKENZIE moved the adjournment of the debate. The House diiided, when there appeared— For the adjournment ... 19 - • Against it ... ... 63 Majority against the adjournment —44 The second reading of the Bill, after a short conver sation, was postponed to this day. The other 'orders were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at One o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, May 7. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the Woolsack at Five o'clock. NAVIGATION -LAWS. _ _ Petitions aganit the repeal of the navigation-laws were presented by the Duke of Richmond, the Marquis of Londonderry, the Earl of Harrowby, Lord Wharn eliffe, and Lord Stanley, from certain banker, shipowners, and artizans of London, signed by 31,771 persons, and from various other places. Petitions in favour of the repeal of the navigation laws were presented by the Marquis of LANSDOWNE from Manchester and Dundee. EXCHEQUER-BILLS BILL. Oa the motion of Earl GRANVILLE, this Bill was read a second time. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE laid on the table certain papers relating to Sicily. NAVIGA'I lON-LAWS. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE' then moved the second reading of the Bill fur the repeal of the naviga tion-laws. He felt himselfrelieved from the necessity of de taining their Lordships at any great length, trom a know ledge that their Lordships were already familiar with almost all the facts and arguments of the case. He, how ever, must detail some of the reasons which induced him to make his motion, because he knew that in many cases the opposition to this Bill was founded upon a belief, he believed an erroneous, but he was sure a sincere, belief, that this measure would affect the naval supremacy of this country. It would be his business to endeavour to disabuse the minds of Noble Los da of that belief. II admitted that it was necessary to sacrifice some portion of our liberty to preserve the rest, so was it ni cessary to sacrifice some portion of the wealth and resources of the country tor the purposes of defence. But he trusted he should show their Lordships that such sacrifices as were desired by th e continuance of the navigation laws were not re quired. He c uld not go step by step into the history of those laws. The first attempt at a navigation law was in the time of Richard 11., but the year after its enactment it was found to be so destructive to commerce that the very Parliament which passed it Was compelled to repeal it. These laws were founded in the natural feeling of grasping at every thing in Com merce, which inv ar i a bl y b roug ht with it its own punish ment. ' The prosp er i t y o f ever y cou ntry must be invari ably founded upon the prosperity of other commercial couniriea—(Chee rs )— an d, consequently, all those at tempts had tailed. An o th er attempt h a d b ee n made to enact a"vigation-law by Henry VIII., and having protected the shipowner, h against thel e protected the peop'e to enter the ecrtain number shi p owner, of by ports o cling as might have been su pposed , that only a t w h e e re tim e e, Cromwell t ha t thebe permitted This scheme, enacted. present ,ilecl. I n t a: v ig ti a s not The object was to punish thecoi3 purely of a t n iu o u t . until s of the nEvigatiun-law was umercial nature, his object they had given to Charlft:h for the support which situation of this country IL might perhaps have be, n fair grounds for trying a stimulus Considering the then therethe might be given to present sacrifice of weal th experiment how far by a Holland were at the development of our marine circumstances, with regard tuuostrength. Our that time the very reverse of what they now. But though he admitted that might have been at the t i me ex P erin leHt fairly he by no means achnittei that that experim ent had b een successful. Fifteen years after those lawiibad been enacted he found it recorded in thtpt)msy, thsteamturng bo o k, the ~ D iary of Mr. Secretary ee t toy for this pos'ible to see any but women navigating boats, wa s i m . remedy as the men had all been pressed, and that as a em state of things, it had been found necessary e recom mend the immediate suspension of th e navigation-laws. . his Weuld pass over . thelisiOry Of those laws deter„ the reiene of tee Stuarts, merely e etetit g that their effect, at , er a f.-ev years trial, being feueet most disadvartra iN., cot4ider thie medificatioes were made, and on the eecessiori of Williatn 111. tim trade and ceir merce of the country we re in a very flouriAieg ceiriciNon. Ile would next go onto the period when at theeed of the American war Mr. Pitt tern; into effice—a name to w hieh he Lever ulluded but with the greatest respect, and for which many in that House professed an almost super .stitieus reverence. Mi. Pitt immedien ly on coming into effico persuaded of the importance in the then state of things.of introducing some relaxation of the eavies -tion-laws, introduced a measure for that purpose. That was at a moment when beyond ray other in the history •of England, the importance of the navy to the security of the country hid been proved, and at the close of a war in which the tarnished laurels in the - unfortunate war which had taken place, by land, in America, had been in a great degree redeemed by the glory of those seceesscs a h:ch from the victory of Roiltiey, in the Vi'est Indies, to the relict of Gibraltar. by Howe, in the Mediter ranean, hed ustabli&ed the naval supremacy of this country. and rescued her honour, enabling her to obtain a satisfactory peace. Was that a moment when any wise and prudent Minister would think of laying his hands on a scred ark, as some considered the naviga tion-lewa, in which the security of the navy, and con sequently of the country, consisted ? Nevertheless, Pitt at once saw the net essity of opening the cclOrrial trade, and introduced a me aiure for that purpose, but ehich his retirement from office prevented him from carrying, although this principle had from time to time been acted on by acts of authority on the part of suoces. sive.Ministries.--e(Hear, hear) He next came to a time within his own recollection. In 1807 he brought into the other House a measure for est.thlishing free inter course between the West Indian and American colonies and the mother country. That measure was oppos, dby Sir W. Grant, on the ground that it would affect the navy and mercantile marine & this country. Hee !urther staved, that such would be the inatne men t affordel to American vessels for geing to the West Indian islands, and engaging in the trade of them, that it was doult tul whether any sugar would be imported to this country. Now, remembering those allegations, and the powerful eloquence with which they were enforced, he had the curiosity to ascertain what the effect of that measure had been which was denounced as having so destructive a tendency. He had taken the year in which the measure passed down to the conclusion of the war, and he found, that while in the year 1807, the year in which that Bill was passed, the general tonnage of Bri tish ships was two millions and ninety-six thousand tons, at the conclusion of the war that tonnage had increased to 2,247,000 tons. • Tho Duke of RICHMOND—That included ships of war as well as merchant ships. The Marquis of LANSDOWN-E—He would then turn to the system with which they had now to deal, and look at the altered shape which the navigation-hews have taken, if shape it could be called, which shape, had none distinguishable. And on that part of the subject he had to state, that instead of the commerce of this country being girt about, as some would insinuate, with a coat .of impenetrable armour, it was clothed with a gar ment of shreds and patches, a system the most com plicated that ever was put 3a the statute book in the shape of an enactment.—(Hear, hear.) Under what protection was it, he would ask, that they now existed ? The fact was few were aware, and it would perhaps not a little surprise their Lordships when he told them that several most respectable witnesses engaged in shippi, g and commerce, called before a Committee of their Lordships' House to give evidence in favour of the navigation-laws, avowed that. until they were called upon to consider the subject, they had no idea that there was so little protection as there was.—(Hear, hear.) But when the subject was looked into, the absence of all that protection soon became apparent. They had, for instance, various treaties concluded, such as the United States, Mexico, Buenos Ayres, Vent rude, Rus-ia, Austria, the Netherlands, Prussia, Denmark, Sweden, Holland, Portugal, Naples, Turkey, Oldenburg!), Greece, and every one of these had been entered into independent -of the navigation-laws. They were rot all framed on the same principles ; on the contrary, they exhibited the greatest va riety of opinions and ideas. Some of them were terminable, others interminable. They contained diffe• rent catalogues of charges, and different conditions as to the engagement of vessels for foreign voyages, and taken as a whole, comprised a mass of contusion, d fficulty, and inconvenience, which made it not at all surprising that those having the deepest interest in them, found it impossible to discover under what law or what protection they were acting. That, therefore, had had the effect of suspending, in many instances, the operation of the navigation laws, and the general result of that had been, that year by year the amount and value of British shipping and trade had been progres sively increasing. —(clear, hear, from the Opposition.) He found that, while in 1816 the tonnage of British shipping was 2,783,000 tons, in 1848 it had risen to up wards of five millions of tons. No doubt it would be said that during that time the commercial prosperity and power of other nations had also increased, and that he viewed as ono of the best aspects of the times, for it showed how one nation benefited by coming in contact with others, and how the whole flourished by a system of commercial enterpfze. But it was also slid that the British shipowner and merchant was not in a condition to compete with foreign coun• tries without a large amount of protection being afforded him. Now, in answer to that, he would call the atten tion of their Lordships to the manner in which the Bri tish shipowner and merchant prospered in the very voyages and countries in which they were must exposed to that competition. lie had before him the proportion of English and American tonnage, and, as it was said that one effect of the present measure would be to enable the United States to beat the shipping of this country out of the marker, he would state that proportion to the House. For a great many years past, in the direct voyage, between this country and the United States, the English shipowner had gone totally unprotected. Now, whit was the issue of the contest net Veen him and the American in that respect? In 1836 the tonnage of English ships engaged in direct trade with America, and in competition with American ships, was 544.000 tone, and the American tonnage was 1,255,000, while in 1848 the English tonnage had risen to 1,177,000 tons, and the Amercen to 2,393,000 tons, thereby showing not only that the English shipping had maintainel itself, but that it had increased in a greater proportion during the time stated then had the American tonnage. And to show the proportion of British and foreign tonnage employed in the trade with the United States, he had to state that while the British tonnage in that trade was 1,177,000 tons, that of all other nations only amounted to 228.000 tons, so that the British tonnage was six or seven times the amount of that of all other nations so employed. Within the last few days he had rec - ived a letter from a very extensive shipowner on the subject, who stated, as the result of his experience, that his ships never got so good freights, and were never so successful, as when they sailed between two foreign ports.--(Hear, hear.) And that being what the present measure was intended to render more common and extensive, no one could say that its pasting would deteriorate the interest of the shipowner. He would now turn to the Baltic; but would first allude to the trade carried on by the British ship ping with Hamburgh. The trade carried on by British shipping there exceeded the amount of the trade of Hainhurgh itself, and had exceeded that carried on by shipping of all other nations. The tonnage of British shipping which sail from that port was 291,000, while the tonnage of all other nations was only 265,000 tons. Then if they went to Russia and the Baltic, where it was said competition would be more severe than anywhere else, as ships could be built there so cheap that the Esglish shipowner bad nu chance with such competitors; there timber was cheap, and the greatest facility afforded ler ship-building; but, notwithstanding that he found that while there had sailed from the port of St. Petersburgh 228,000 tons of British chipping, the ton nage, of Prussian and other foreign vessels trading there only amount d to 221,000 tons, so that in the very heart of that country, where timber was cheap and where cora petition the most materially ba feared, the British mer chant had maintained so decided an advantage and supe riority as might make him careless about future competition. But it might be said, if the present system works thus well, why introduce a change at the present time ? It must, however, be borne in mind, that although this country might be at present master of shipbuilding, it might not alwa)s remain so, and that there were be sides many other considerations to be taken into account, bkhich made it evident that unless a change wt's made in time, the duties now to be altered would have to be so when it would, perhaps, be more difficult and dangerous to do it. There were besides from 220,000 to 230,000 ions of English shipping engaged in indirect trade with countries, the treaties between which and this country were about to expire, and which, were they not secured, all that amount of shipping would be thrown out of employment.—(llear.) On the other hand, they would find that great disadvantages were occurring iu regard to this country, in its trade with countries who had no such prohibitory duties as this country had. For instance, most of the British vessels trading to French ports had to leave those ports II ballast, and consequently incurred great lois to the owners. The colonies also called on them t, pass such a measure as the present. The West Indian colonies were subjected to great difficulty in consequence of the navigation-laws, and Canada told them that the entire trade of the St.Lawren i c h Lawrence depended opening upon their abrogation. In consequence of of canals and other means of transit, the trade of Canada had been diverted through the United States, which had endeavoured to draw its trade away from it, and the only ri medy for that would be the opeuirg of the St. Lawrence —and it that was not done, could they imagine that the people of Canada would remain quiet? s op o s f ra d t e i v o e v )v 4 m C e a n n t a t d o s, a t i h i e i y ier we r r e e . It they bound to He believed that monopoly they r h ar ad t the way sources. IgPicveete;ul the e e c an o to insure prosperity. • The experiencehtor of the ) e ' orld afforded history • had seen endea voured lesson. They them a great and serious . Europe the greatest mono voured to be established in had in that respect in the is • ()lonics, and was - to obtain s3ips, c avowing his object might establish such a mo nopoly They had he fail in all those p ro j ects. Ships lie could not get , co they, but they had seen un not acquire, colonies he could us would swallow up British comm erce alto g e- British commerce were such, that when once it enterprise of iced a footing it pro gresseda basis which was not easi l y to a nd commerce he t ould not ucceltrate; and that wa s be cause the character and di s turbed or an advire their therefore, on to the establishment of of trade on nihilated. H© would, do so the positi me on he was c,.nfident that if they did not beco Lordships to pass the second reading of the Bill , an d their trade and commerce would occupy the c aisiderably worse than at pres . nt. In moving e cond reading of the Bill, then, and understanding that the Noble Lord opposite bed resolved to run the risk of re jecting it, he would say, for himself and his colleagues, risk that they were equally prepared to run thethe of its being adopted and passed.—(Cheers.) fr 1:41 .4 SU N. LONDON, TUESDAY Lerd BROUGHAM, in rising to address their Lord , ships, was ineouished to have heard of its being said, net many hours ago, that he, who had all along teen a sup ' porter of free. trade, should now turn hie beck urn and refuse to aid in pueing the crown open the last pillar of its triunaehs. He gleried in the core - pest referred to — he gloried in having obtained that moral triumph of what he believed to be the seundest principles of pert deal ehilesophy, and over the Most groundless preju dices by which its progress was ever attempted to be obstructed. But if there were any 'one drop in that cup of eride which was more sweet and palatable to him, it was the recollection that the most eminent statesmea had given up 'Lar prejudices against free trade, and had j. fined him in carry ing the repeal of the corn-laws. He hoped that after the long voyage their Lordships had among the dry details of statistics, and which it was their lute to continue somewhat longer, though not under the able and enlightened guidance of his Noble Frio-id (the Mai quis of Lansdowne), they would excuse him if he would resist the °ppm tunity of enlivening the sut . ..ifet', for one moment, by what long experience in that deliberative assembly Lad proved to him to be mere interesting than any, however important, statistical question.—(flour, hear.) But he must first positively veny the assertion that that was a question of free trade, or that the navigetiote laws had any rt of con nexion with it, fur some of their Lordships considered that this measure was a miserable fragment of free trade. He would ask, who was the leader of the great free-trade principle? Who was the eminent apostle of that doctrine? Whose work was it that constituted as it were the Sciiptural volume of authority for all free traders and all political economists of • that sett& ol ? Beyond all question, the great apostle of free trade was Ac am Stui h, the author of " The Wealth of Nations." And yet Adam Smith declared that as opu lence was less important than defence, the navigation laws were the wisest of the commercial regulations of England.—(Hear, hear.) Washington, the revered founder of the: American. constitution, and the father of American freedom, signalised his entrance into office, at the end of the American war, by a statement of the ebsolute necessity of America's taking measures, by the enneuragement of the American and the discourage ment of foreign shipping, for securing a maritime ascendancy in weir own ports.—(Fleur, hear.) Again, Maddistin, who on many questions differed from Wash ington, signalised his administration by the adoption of that course of policy which the navigation-jaws had sanctioned in this country. His argument was, that although such a policy might lead to some financial loss, or to some commercial restrictions, it was right that the interests of the revenue and of commerce should yield to the higher object of national security. lie (Lord Brougham) had also to state that it was the doc trine of Mr. Iluskisson—whose opinions upon that sub ject had been so misunderstood—that where com merce and marine came into antagonism, com merce shou'd yield, as it was neon our marine that the safety of the country mainly- depended.—(Hear, hear.) His Noble Ft iend had told them that it appeared from " Pcpye' Diary" that the navigation-laws had been found to have failed fifteen years after their nnact went. But it was not the navigation-laws that had led at that period to the decline of our marine. The fact was that Charles 11. had not maintained his navy in a state of efficiency from a want of the funds necessary for that purpose, or from a want of a desire to devote the funds at his disposal to the construction of ships or the payment of able seamen. His Noble Friend, in the course of his argument, had embarked in a sea of fieures ; but he (Lord Brougham) believed that his N Jble Friend could not emberk on a more dangerous voyage than by launching out upon the great ocean of statistics in the good ship " Board of Trade, G. E. Porter, master."—(A laugh.) Indeed he feared that in such a voyage the shipwreck of his Neble Friend was all but inevitatee. During the whole of his experience, from the year 1808 to 1812, in 1817, its 1824, and 1842 —during all these different crises in commercial affairs, he thought that nothing but evil ever arose from any of our statesmen founding Their mercantile. policy on details of figures .and statistical tables. There was no propositian which might not be proved by the statistical tables.—(Hear, hear.) It was well known that these statistics were done by a process of cooking.—(Hear and laughter.) The Comtnite e 'which had sat on that question had sufficiently elicited the process by which those tables were prepared. Yet upon these his Noble Friend had relied in support of his case. He h.d desired them to look to the state of Ame rican shipping. His Noble Friend had told them, on the authority of those tables, that while our tonnage had increased by such an amount, the American tonnage had only increased- by such another amount. His Noble Friend had said that all that was the consequence of pro tection. Now, it so hepte ned that he (Lord Brougham) had access to the same accounts to which his Noble Friend ht d access, and what did he find was the case? He had extracted from the report a few questions which would throw some light on Veit matter. "It appears," said a member of the Committee, examining the wit ness who had prepared these statistical accounts—" it appears, in pages 447-57, that you have taken the whole of the British, and only part of the American tonnage into your calculation," The witness admitted as much. " Then," continued the examiner, " can any clt gree of accuracy whatever ho ascribed to that account, as a fair statement of the comparative extent of British and American tonnage?" " Certainly not," said the witness.—(Laughter.) Suppose one asked his cook— " Is what you have served up for dinner good food or not?" and the cook answered, "Certainly not"—(Laugh ter)—would that be thought a very satisfactory meal to sit down to?—(Hear and laughter.) The witness was further asked, " Have l'ou no means of remedying this error, or of correcting this inaccuracy?" His reply was, "I do not know that I have. I rather think I have, but lam not certain."—(Much laughter.) Such were the statistics upon which his Noble Friend founded his case. Now, with respect to the old system of the navigation laws, as laid down by Mr. Iluskisson, they did nut object to his proposition. The policy had been adopted with the view of arranging the reciprocity system and the differential duties, and prohibition had been en tirely out of the question. Mr. Porter, Mr. Ri cardo, and all those who were for repealing the navigation-laws, had stated that it would be found the protected trade had not increased near so much as the unprotected trade. Yet it had been acknowledged that so false a heading had never been put in a hook as that which professed to describe the " protected" and " un protected" trades. It should have been protected and less protected. All the following places should be in a different class from that in which they appeared in the tables in question. The Roman States. Tuscany, Gibraltar, China, Java, the lonian Islands, and the South Seas. That made a difference of no less than 350,000 tons in the account, which was nearly one-half of the whole. Such returns, therefore, were not those upon which they could safely legislate. It was another part of the principle of the navigation-laws to keep as much of the carrying trade in our own hands as we could, and to keep other countries as much as possible from it. It had been said that 215,000 tons of shipping were now engaged in the carrying trade, which were likely to be put out of it if that measure were not passed. Now that west) fiction of the grossest—he was almost going to say scandalous nature he had ever heard.— (Hear.) He had never seen a more unfounded misre presentation. The calculations of tonnage had been taken from the number of voyages which the ships made. There had been 47 ships of about 7,000 tons entirely, and they having made 32 von ages on the year, the abovementioned amount of tonnage had been set down in the calculation.—(Hear, hear?) There was one ship called the Magician, set down as at 14,200 tons, yet she was only 96 tons burden, but she made 146 voyages on the year, and that was the way in which her magical amount of tonnage bad been made out.—(Hear, hear.) He would leave it to those Hon. Members of the other House of Parliament, who called upon their fancies for their facts, and their memories for their jokes--(Laugh ter)— to reconcile such an amount of exaggeration as that account showed.—(Hear, hear.) Allusion had been made to the Russian trade with this country. Now there was no question relative to the navigation-laws between this country and Russia. No goods could now be exported from Russia , _ unless Russia had been the entrepot fur the same. One of the witnesses examined had said with regard to the difference between Eng lish and Russian seamen, that one of the for mer would do the work of twelve of the latter.—(Hear, hear.) Now he (Lord 'Broughom) believed that to be au exaggeration. It had been said that they were now dealing only with the remains or fragments of the old navigation-laws. But he maintained that these fragmenti were of a large or gigantic•size, and in dealing with them he conceived they should not be dealt with in the contemptuous manner which the pro moters of the present measure treated them. Under the remains of that system no less than 1,500,000 tons of shipping were engaged—no less than '20,000 seamen were employed—and a capital of near 5,000,0002 em barked.—(Hear, hear.) Yet it was said that the present s 3 stem could not be continued, chiefly on account of the discontent of Canada. With respect to the trade by the St. Lawrence with the United States, he contended there was perfect freedom of trade between Canada and the United States, and that either might export to the other in their own shipping. What had induced Mr. Pitt to make a change in the navigation-laws of his time was the great changes which had taken place in the West Indies, the colonies, and the South American States, since the rassieg of the 12th of Charles 11. They had to be suited to the new condition of the world, and it was on that principle also that Mr. Hus kisson had acted in later times. Brazil, Mexico, all the Spanish possessions in South America, ceased to be colonies, and it became absolutely necessary that we should adapt our law to them, and treat them as foreign countries, and not as colonies. But even this had not been done without great sacrifices. If Noble Lords would look to our returns of seamen and tonnage for six years before 1822, and for the six years following, they would find that our tonnage' had fallen off to the , extent of 1,300 vessels, measuring 150,000 tons, in the course of the six years after 1822, and that it did not recover itself for sixteen years.--((fear.) He rested this assertion, not on returns made with reference to this particular question, but on the annual retutns made from 1822 to 1838, before this subject was agitated. He should now come to what he considered the gist of the ques tion, w hich he could not help thinking his Noble Friend opposite, conscious of the weakness of his case, had most carefully avoided. The policy of the navigation-laws —a policy continued by Mr. Huskisson through all, he would not say the changes, but the alterations which he proposed, was founded on the principle laid down by Adam Smith, that the great object of every island whose coasts were extensive compared with its inland territory, ought to be to encourage by all reasonable means the formation of a mercantile navy, as the foun r.a—nu(lldeedart,ohßeoarn.a)parltlet dation of a military navy, because it was impossible to have t h e one without t w h h e e :th h t e opposite, and ccmineece," had taken a of speech than any multiplication of Noble gtifiagr)euiarn tegesrobfyl Friend :tii.Bsthuoi o dp. i s ( A laugh.) The fact was, that Ilona. - commerce.—(" No, no " from Noble dame, in uttering these words, breathed a wish hostile t o ships, colonies, and FVENING-, MAY 8, 1849. Peers on the Ministerial side.) The best proof of it was an anecdote vehich arose on art occasion which he was old enough to I , :co:hec—the occasion of a festival et Guild hall, at v, hich he was present, end at which Mr. Pitt gave its a twist, " The Ships, Coloeics, and Commerce of England:'—(llcar, hear.) That was a most able retort un Napoleon, but would Lave been pointless if al that Napoleon wished wasiships, and colonies, and com merce. True, he had no mercantile navy—no commerce, no colonies—and the reason was because England had ships, colonies, and commerce, because she bad fostered the growth of that m agn ifi cen t mercantile marine—be cause she had encoura g ed that ' w ith o ut whi she never would have had a navy at all, because she bad for the ch last 150 years abided by that policy without deviation, except to adopt successive change* to keep that policy intact, for the purpose of promoting not merely the commerce of the country, but the growth•of a mercen tile navy arid the butldtng of ships and the raising of toeu.—(Hear.) He was stating now Whit be had stated in a publication on this subject so long ago as the year 1802. Ile had in that work attempted to show the bear ing of the principles of his great master, Adam Smith, and had maintained the great ad% tuitage of colonies to the mother country. 'I hose zealous individuals who 'were ‘N hat wet e called f= ee-traders !lever ceased quoting Adam Smith as a great authority, although they wished us to have no calottics hstover.—(licar, hear) They considered the colonial trade as a foreign trade, only returning ore capital, hut it was art abuse of terms to call our. colonial trade a foreign trade. It replaced two capitals, and was in all essentials a home trade. To trade with Jamaica instead of Brazd was to replace two capitals, the E'tglish capital and the J.ernaica capital. If any pet son would look to the valleys of We stmorc land or Lancashire; or going further north examine the counties of Inverness and Russ, he would see a proof of the soundness of this doctrine its the.very names of the villas —names suggestive of Jamaica, Barbadoes, Trini dad, and Demerara, and showing that the owners had built their houses, had cultivated their grounds, and ha 4 made the barren heath smile, by the fortunes accumu lated in Jamaica, Barbadoes,lnd our other West Indian possessions.—(Hear, h ear .) It became, there fore, not mer e ly our nat i onal glory, b ut our c ommercial proqn:rity, to ha ve th ese magn i f i cent co l o nial estabdsh. ments. They were , i n f act, but extensions of the terri tory of our usitive land.. Pro vi dence had bountifully cast our lot in an island f ert il e i n agr i cu l tura l resources, and under a climate w e ll calculate d to produce habits of daring and industry in our population. In one respect, however, our country was limited—it was limited in variety of production. The produce was not that on which a tropical sun had shone. But the wis• dam and gallantry of our ancestors had carticd across, the seas-- "The flag which - .braved a thousand years The battle and the breeze." They had planted it in the Antilles—in South America —in the Cape—in India —and even in China itself ; and had conquered for us the advantages of other suns and other climates.—(Hear, hear) Should we then aban don this empire ?—(No.) No, said his Noble Friend opposite. He perfectly agreed with his Noble Friend in the cosmopolitan principle of 'wishin, well to every country ; but then he could not go quite so far as his Noble Friend, and allow foreigners to share in that magnificent colonial empire, the outlines of which he had feebly attempted to sketch. He could never con sent that America should have all the benefits, and be left to its Own good pleasure to reciprocate:— (Hoar, hear.) Upun that question the Government of the United States had been sounded, and something like a disavowal had been put forth of the concessions promised by Mr. Bancroft. Now this Bill proposed to give an American or any other foreign ship, in a commercial point of 'view, the same benefit in the trade of this country as a British ship. It might bring home our colonist produce and take out our exports to our colonies, without any equivalent advantage to us, the foreigner not contributing one shilling to the expense of our colonial government. So much with regard to the colonial teethe With respect to the building of ships and the breeding of sailors, his Noble Friend opposite had said that no danger was to be apprehended.. If so, whence the petitions on the subject? How came the Liverpool petitions to be signed by as many as 47,000 persons? The Earl of H ARROWB"rt—And by the corporation. Lord BROUG HAM :—And, SS his Noble Friend, who once represented Liverpool, suggested, " and by the corporation." Sir James Graham might flatter himself that Liverpool was in favour of the Bill because its two Members supported it, if he could only explain away the " petition from that town against the Bill, with.its 4 7, 000 si g n a tures. In the very Bill itself he found an ally. It began by repealing a number of Acts, but the first section stated that it was also intended to " protect strictly and closely "—what?—the whole coasting trade of the court try.—(Hear, hear.) Why this distrust of the principle of free trade in navigation? Upon what principle was the 1 •1? (FI ) withdraw protection f rom co ouut ear. Nut surely because the coasting trade was the nursery it proposed to continu e to protect the home trade, sled of our best seamen, fur that was the principle upon which the whole of the navigation-laws rested. "Oh," s aid leis Noble Friend, " everybody should be allowed to carry his produce to market as cheaply as he could." Why, then, continue the restriction on the bringing of coals from Newcastle, or on the shipment of wheat from the corn- growing districts to the market of the metropolis?—eklear.) Why aas the agriculturist not to have the same benefit as the merchant in the cheap conveyance of his produce? Why was it that all traflic on our rivers and canals and along our coasts should be by British born subjects alone? But why not do it as well for the internal as the coasting trade? For the obvious reason, that they entertained no strong desire to• encourage the class of drovers and waggoners. Evidence had been adduced to show why the proposed change should take place. Now, some of the evidence adduced was most asoonishing.' For instance, Mr. Mitchell stated that two Englishmen would do as much work as twelve Russians. But his evidence went on to show that a great mass of the masters were so ignorant as to be unable to read or write. Now he (Lord Brougham) well knew men who had had ten times the experience of Mr. Mit chell, who had b een three times as long emp l oye d i n t h e shipping tr a d e , an d w hose respectability efts beyond all question —so me o f them being as goo d Whi gs as hi s Noble Friend s oppOsite— (Leugh ter)—and as zealous for the doctrine o f f ree trade—ani these men h a d g i ven hi m their distii.ct assurance that such ha d not b een t h e case within their experience, and that Mr. Mitchell must have been unfortunate if he bad employed captains, 50 per cent. of whom could not read or write.—(Hear.) He now came to the marrow and pith of the whole question. Could the foreigner, after this sweeping measure Should become law, undersell us in our two great articles of building ships and of navigating ships?—(Hear, hear.) Upon that question issue was joined. tie was about to prove that this would be the case. The first witness exam ined was a shipowner of the port of Leith and his evidence was confirmed by other persons. H e state d t h at h e b a d t r i e d to build a ship of 500 t ons i n the mos t econom i ca l man ner, possible before- this question arose, and without regard to it. The vessel cost him 201. per ton. Now, deducting the 21. per ton for the duty on timber, which might be abolished, that would leave the cost of the vessel 181. per ton. What would have been the cost of building the same ship at Dantzic? Why, 12/. per ton. —(Hear, hear.) But even supposing the charges to be spoke of an imme nse interest. 141. or 151 ., arid 124, that would be tatal.— ( Bear, hear.) When they they 16,000,000/. was embarked. The sum annually spent in the building of ships was 3.000,0001. The outfit building i n h o n t g n l o an le d s , s than and repairs amounted to 8,000,000/.—(Hear, hear.) The number of shipwrights employed was about 80,000 at 4s. per day —a set of men as industrious, as sober, as skilful, as any men of which the country could boast.—(Hear.) This was an immense interest, a great and magnificent branch of business with which Par liament was makin g f r ee, and upon he r warned them riot unduly to lay a rude hand. — ( and ' after Mr. Minton, an American, was exam in e d,ea wards some Russians and Prussians , and all gave evi- Now with respect to dence, every man for h imse lf. n the Baltic 3 1 . were wages. The wages of the master per month, and five per cent. upon the tonnage, making altogether about 5/. per month. In Belgium and Holland the master received only about 41, But what did he receive in England? 81. 10 s. —(Hear, hear) —Bl. 10s., according to Mr. Mitchell, f or a man who could neither read nor write, and 51. for a Prussian, who could do both.—(A laugh.) The men in the Baltic and. the other countries to .which he had referred re ceived from 305. to 355. per month ; in England, 31. (Hear, hear.) The price of food here was ls. 3d. per day; in those Other countries, 81.---(Hear, hear.) This was the result of the compai icon of English shipbuild ing and English navigation between this , country and foreign ports; and if anybody would look at the relative numbers and sums, arid observe the foundation in the distance of material and the different habits of the people in the one case, and, in the other, the nearness ' of the material and the other habits of the people—if any one would . look at those two points, the reason of the thing going along with the facts and figures—they would come to this conclusion, that it is impossible, without protection, for this country to enter into suc cessful competition with the United States and the Baltic, t ither in the building of ships or the sailing of them.—(Cheers.) Now; what did this Bill do ? It strengthened the monopoly of the coasting trade, and it coetinued the must oppressive of all the Navigation Act regulations, the provision that every British ship shall be manned by an English master, and that three-fourths of the crew shall be Englishmen.—(B ear , hear.) But why did the Bill retain the three fourths? For this reason :—They dared not give it up —they knew how much they depended upon these seamen.—(Hear, hear.) They knew what the consequences of not having them would be; and that all they could do and preach to these men about free trade—about the navigation-laws and the fragmentsof the system; or tell them from "Pepy'e Diary" down to this day, would never preserve to them or create for them that most invaluable be.dy of British seamen. — (Chet rs ) But bow important was it to maintain them. It was said, " you may have one-fourth foreigners;" but he (Lord Brougham) thought they could not mix one fourth foreigners with three-fourths English. That would be impossible. They might pass the Bill, but they would never be able to place one-fourth foreigners among three-fourths British seamen. And why ? Be cause they must have the same wages, they must eat the same food, and could not speak the gime language.—(Cheers.) But this would happen. Pass this Bill, inconsistent in itself, suicidal in respect to the coasting trade, and what would be the consequence? The English trader, or shipowner, or merchant would employ a foreign ship—(Hear, hear)—and not one fourth, but four- tourthr.—(ilear.) That would be the inevitable result. He would beseech their Lordships to pause before placing so great an inte rest in jeopardy -4,009,000 of tons of shipping, navigated by 230,000 men, tht so men being the nursery for our navy. What was the consequence of having the se men? A navy, which rides triumphantly upon every sea. What would be the other consequence? That war breaks onl--owiog t to the vile, meddling, inconsistent, and false policy every ! where pursued by this country—the policy of teuchieg . a verything. end gresping nothing—forgetting the gar : den , r' nroverb. "he who would touch a nettle most tzrasp 11 they went on in an open cay !bey might foresee a war, and they wou!d he prepared for it. Through no fault of the it own, through no misteke in their pelicy, yet they might be involved in a war, anti then how wits their navy to be manned and maintained? Before that series of immortal victories which had handed dean to fame the names of our St. Vincents and our Nelsons, our Duncans end our Howes, and which were the glory of our military service—just previous to the breaking out of the war which led to those brilliant and immortal achieve ments, they had only 16,000 sailors in the navy in all their ports and in all the liing'a ships. In less than six weeks 35,000 were added to the number.—(Cheers.) Whence came they? were they landsmen they had en listed? No such thing. They were sailors from the mercantile marine. When the war bad exhausted the navy, tend they had had recourse to the fatal system of enlisting quota n, as they we re called, from the pa rishes, there was seen one of the most di: graceful scenes which the country had ever known—the mutiny at the sore was entirely owing to their basing recount. to ianditnen in insetting their ships. In place of the 16 000 seamen, their numbers now were n- arty doubled —instead of 16,000 being ineintait.ed on a peace estab lishment, they had now 32,000 or 33,000, and there fore the increase in the mercantile navy as a nursery for the Royal navy was not out of proportion. He spoke in times when he would he a bold men who would take upon himself to pr. dice that the peace of Europe would be maintainer'. God avert the omen, but when they looked across tie Channel and saw a Republic whose fate was yet suspended in the ba lance and which rested upon a comprehensive military organization, who could say how long the peace of the world would be maintained? Ile knew very well why the troops had been sent to Civita Vecchia; it was neither to restore the Pope or • because Austria bad threatened to interfere; it was because no French Mi nister—no French President—durst refuse the French people, at least the people of Paris, an object on which they were bent. That was why the troops had been sent to the Papal States; that was why the general in command had written a letter for publication in Paris, declaring that he had landed all his troops without firing a shot. Why should they have fired a shot when there was no one to oppose them? Who could answer for the peace of Europe with that population in such a state? a population which had nearly driven the most peace able Minister under Louis Philippe to march an army across the Alps. He rejoiced at the great and glorious victories obtained by Marshal Radetzy, and only la mented that he had not completed his work by occupying Turin.—(Hear.) That was an error, because such an act of foolish forbearance-had led to bloodshed at Genoa and elsewhere. The great victories and the humanity of Marshal Radetzky had preserved Piedmont; Genoa was now at peace, and the people were now throwing off the yoke of the most base and degraded mob leaders which had ever infested a country, and he trusted that the Romans were now pacified, and zealously setting about the establishment of order. Still no man could look at the peninsula and be sure of the continuance of peace. In Germany, from the Baltic to the Adriatic, there was one disposition animating all breasts, a de sire to hake existing institutions, and subvert the thrones • which yet remained. The Russians had marched to the north, in order to save Hungary from the anarchy induced by her Polish invaders. Look ing at all these things, who could predict with confi dence that at the end of three months all Europe would remain in a state of perfect peace?—(Hear.) Was that time well chosen for making such a change? They were in 1849, the year atter that year of revolutions, 1848, before the waves of rebellion had subsided—was that the time for making a great and sweeping change in that system by which the navy had been created and maintained—was it at such a time that they were about to reduce their thousand ships to hundreds—was it at such a time as that, when they might be called upon to struggle for very existence—was that the time to break up that system which provided such a nursery for the navy? At any time it must bo impolitic, but it was hardly safe to do it then. Was there any pressure for the measure—any pressure from without? The friends of the Government were saying that they would do no thing—they were not bold Ministers. Now boldness was an excellent thing in any one; in a Minister it was an admirable quality—boldness of the right kind, boldness to refuse all pressure from without—(Hear, hear) — boldness to conceive measures for the good of the coun try, and boldness to propose them, careless to whom ho might give offence. There was another kind of boldness —a boldness in bringing forward large measures and put ting great interests in jeopardy. That was a boldness for which he had no admiration. That was a boldness; but the Minister was not bold at his own cost and charges, not bold in his own person, but vicariously—a boldness wherein the Minister did not confront his enemies, but made the country confront its perils. If they gave up that nursery for their seamen, why should they go on spending the fifteen or sixteen millions on the army and navy? A certain sect had lately sprung up, calling themselves "free-traders," but with whom real free traders could hold no communion, and employed them selves in preaching the reduction of all our great esta blishments. He was strongly of opinion that the step they were invited to take by her Majesty's Government was one which they could not wisely nor safely take, hecause if once taken they could not retrcce it. The coasting trade was to be left untouched, and the re straints on the seamen were not abrogated; so that another agitation would be got up—another Weal d° would spring up, in order to have the last remnant of the system thrown overboard; and if the Bill passed he would say that it would be difficult to meet them, He ' had stated the grounds upon which he rested his oppo siden to the measure. He had looked at the ques tion and applied his mind to its consideration with an absolute forbearance of all party motives --a throwing over of all personal feelings whatever, and he had discharged his duty in stating his opinion to the House. It was for their Lordships to deal with the measure. If the Bill were rejected, certain consequences, they were told, would result. Now, if it were a matter of minor importance he would have no hesitation in yield ing to his Noble Friend, for he desired no change, but when the fate of the mercantile marine, as well as the safety of the royal navy was at stake, his duty compelled him to a strenuous opposition to the measure the conse quence of which he so much dreaded. He desired no change whatever—he desired success to no party what ever, except to those who would honestly and manfully do their duty to the Queen and their country.—(Cheers.) What would be the effect of the measure upon the accursed slave trade? It would increase and stimulate that trade; for whatever tended to cheapen the car riage of sugar of Brazil would increase the slave trade on the coasts of Africa. When that fact was thrown into the bitter cup to sweeten it, he could assure their Lordships that it was a question on which he could come to no compromise whatever. Believing his argu ments to be sound, as an honest man, as an English man, and as a Peer of Parliament, he felt bound to say that he must oppose the further progress of the measure. Lord GRANVILLE did not think he was called upon to enter into the question as to whether this Bill inter fered with the free•trade policy, nor to follow the Noble Lord in the various observations addressed by him to their Lordships' House; but it certainly did appear to him with respect to the measure of free trade, and to the proposed change in the navigation-laws, that the more they endeavoured to remove restrictions from com merce, and the more they endeavoured to destroy even a limited monopoly, the better it would prove for the in terests of the country. The Noble and Learned Lord (Lord Brougham) had alluded to the commercial diffi culties of the question, and in that respect was more in clined to believe the opinions of the :shipowners. Now as to the petitions of the shipowners, it was to be ob served that they were the persons to whom they meant to apply the stimulus of competition. He had a great respect for the shipowners, and he did not think they would willingly mislead the public; but he doubted whether they themselves felt the alarms which they stated they apprehended from the passing of this measure.—(Hear, hear.) There were not more ships for sale at the present time than in former• years, and ships were in progress of being built at Southampton and other places. He doubted whether many who took part against the present measure knew what the provisions of the nuvigation-laws were, or how they would be affected by their repeal.—(Hear, hear.) They had a large body of merchants who were apprehending great danger from the repeal of these laws. Seeing, however, the great inc cease of trade which had taken place of late years, aid that free-trade had added to the wealth of the country, and materially increased the car rying trek, he thought it was necessary that a corre sponding change should take place in their maritime system. He would now allude to their warehousing system, and it appeared that the American Government had sent a gentleman over to this c,runtry to inquire into its eperation, and to make himself acquainted with the working; of the law. That gentleman had made a report, sad he held in his hand an American paper, in which the operation of the warehousing system was inv,stigit d and strongly recommended for adop tion in America, on account of its advantages to the commerce, the tonnage, and the revenue. —(Hear, hear.) The benefit the system had conferred on the country could not indeed be denied. Under their naviga tion-laws the foreigner might send his produce in ally ship he pleased, while at the same time if a merchant in their colonies did so, the ships and cargo would be seized. —(Hear.) The fact was, that the merchants found trade forced into a certain channel by the navigation laws, and it might be if that channel was somewhat widened it would bring in competitors, which would of course diminish the profits of those hitherto engaged in the shipping trade. The Noble Lord then referred to the evidence given before the Lords' Committee as to the operation of the navigation-laws, and contended that no one could doubt the advantages which a relaxation of those laws would confer on the country. The merchant was sure to du better by being left to himself. The Noble Lend next referred to shipping returns for a number of years past, for the purpose of showing the advantages which competition secured, and especially in regulating the prices of freight. He next alluded to that branch of the question which was in volved in ship Id ing, and said that whatever mig ht be the case as regarded a certain class of vessels, it was q uite certain that ships of the better class could be built cheaper in this country than in any other part of the world. The Bill on the table, if passed into law would be a self-acting law. If any danger existed of competition between this coun try and America , it would be well to strike while the iron was hot, and place the commerce carried on between 1 the countries on a safe and solid footing.—(Hear, hear.) He did not think it would become the greatest commer cial country in the world to begin a war of tariffs.— (Hear, hear.) It was complained that when they were letting loose the foreign trade, they had not at the same time let loose the coasting trade also; but as to the latter it was clear that EO foreigner would enter into co mp 1 e 1 tion with them. As to the British sailor, he bel ie ved.tl him to have a natural aptitude for maritim e pursuits, an d diet all he wanted was good treatment atid - to be — fairly Iremunerated. He believed that two-thirds of the seamen in the American service were British, and although the Noble and Learned Lord (Lord Brougham) had said that the .AuAricans work( their seenten herder and f d the to worse, he (Lord Granville) could not understand, if that were the case, how it teas that so many of the Bri tish seamen should enter into the American service. In regard to the statistical pat t of the subject, he sus.,ected from the manner in which the Noble and Learned Lord who had last spoke had inveighed egaiest-statistlcs, that he Lad found those statistics to tell 'against - himself. — (Hear, hear.) He thought, however, considering the high position that Noble Lord occupied—the many emi nent stations and exalted offices he had held under the Crown, as well as considering the commanding and sar• castie nature of his eloquence—that he ought not to have come down there and made the unjust and unprovoked i attack he had done on Mr. Porter—(Hear, hear) — of the Board of Trade. That Gentleman could not be there to answer for himself; and, therefore, the attack was all the more uncourteous. That gentleman hiving been desired to make up a statement of the comparative increase which had taken place in rrotecteal and ut pro tected trade, had stated that while protected trade hal of ly increased 94 per cent., tutprotecti d trade had in . encased 200 per cent. 'shut statement was in the main correct, and it shored that the navigation-laws, instead of increasing, was a drawback upon the increase of trade. With regard to Denmark, where they could build ships much cheaper than in this country, stud conse quently had is that respect the advantage of them, yet it was a curious fact, that the direct trade of Denmark should be three times as much as its indirect, and that they were at this moment advertising for British sea men to man their vessels. So far as America was con cerned, there could be no dread of competition. It was true that since 1815 the tonnage of American vessels had increased 108 per cent., the great increase being on the coasting trade, while our trade had increased 45 per cent. B u t was there no difference in the popula tion of the two c ountr i es ? I t was the fact, that while in that time the population of this country had only in creased 57 per cent., that of America had increased 143 or 144 per cent. So that w hil e t h e tonnage of American ships had increased as 362, its population bad increased 361. He at once admitted that could he see the slightest chance of this Bill injuring their commercial marine, and committing the ravage on commerce which it was predicted it would do, he would oppose it most strenuously; but seeing that the people of this country were as able to compete in shipbuilding, as well as in everything else, he had no fear that any of the evils predicted would befall them. At this moment there was no country which had ships and sailors to compete with them at once; the change must be gradual, and therefore time would be given before the struggle came, and as to the result of that struggle he had no doubt. Lord BROUGHAM, in explanation, said that Mr. Porter was a witness examined before the Committee of their Lordships' House, and therefore it was his right and duty to animadvert upon his evidence. Lord COLCHESTER said before making any altera tion in these laws, they ought to learn what were the in tentions of their authors and what had been their re sults. Lord STRANGFORD said that though he sat close to the Noble Lord (Lord Colchester), yet he could not hear one word in consequence of the noise below the bar. Lord COLCHESTER resumed, but was equally in audible throughout. His arguments went to show how protection had and would operate beneficially on the capital, commerce, and interest of shipbuilders and sea men of this country. The Duke of ARGYLE felt it his duty to give his reasons fur voting in favour of the Bill. He considered that there were three great general points on which that measure should be discussed. First, on the principal of free trade; secondly, its own intrinsic merit; and, thirdly, on the political situation of the country. On the first he believed that his opinions did not disagree with those of their Lordships. The arguments of the Protec tionists would go back to a repeal oF the reciprocity treaties; but he confessed that he could see much in mo dern commerce to encourage them to go forward in the principles of relaxation, although their acts might not be based upon reciprocity. It appeared to him that several natural cau,es were in operation to encourage the Baltic powers in securing the d►rect trade to their shipping. In considering the consequences of reciprocity, they should also have some consul. ration for the certain conse quences which must_have resulted from the adoptioa of a contrary policy. They could not take a middle course; they must have reciprocity either in restriction or relaxation, and in either alternative it behoved them to consider the results of this retaliatory policy. From a very able answer to Mr. Ricardo's " Anatomy of the Navigation Laws," entitled "Mr. Ricardo's Anatomy of the Navigation Laws Dissected," it appeared that in 1815 the reciprocity treaties were passed, and that in 1830 the English tonnage reached the height from which it fell in 1790, but which it had previously been unable to attain. From the returns of the tonnage in the Baltic trade, also, it appeared that the English tonnage exceeded 22-fold that of the Baltic Powers; and hence arose the presumption that when the Baltic ships were admitted to competition in foreign quarters, they would not very considerably distress them. If he thought that this measure were at all calculated to produce a prejudicial effect on the commerce of the country, no consideration whatever—not even the threatened resig nation of the Government should induce him to support it. But believing that it had no such tendeecy, he should not hesitate to give it his unqualified and cordial assent. The Earl of ELLENBOROUG II said he agreed with his Noble Friend near him, that letween the question of free trade, and the question raised by this Bill, there was no connexion whatever. On former occasions, when he happened to be in England, he had voted for mea sures, the effect of which was to produce a relaxation in their commercial code. He bad voted for those mea sures because he thought they tended to increase the wealth of the country, without danger to its essential in terests. He would vote against this measure, because he believed, that while it might possibly tend to increase the wealth of the country, it went directly to under mine one of its nearest and most important interests. It was impossible to exaggerate the importance of looking to the mercantile navy as the source from whence the navy of the country was to be recruited. Up to the present time they had maintained their supre maey at sea with honour and advantage to themselves, anti he did not doubt that were they called upon to fight to morrow, their men would distinguish themselves for their courage and national devotion, as they had ever done. But the suainteuance of their supremacy would depend upon the issue of the fight, and though ho hoped it would not be doubtful, still he could not disguise the fact that much would depend upon the commencement of the battle, and that France at the present moment was better prepared than they. She had a larger disposable force ready to engage in Euro pean warfare, the same number of ships, with a larger number of me n and marines, and better means of re. cruiting them. In considering that fact, and the ease with which a force might be transported from point to point, by a steam navy, it behoved them to be ex tremely cautious how, by a measure of this sort, they rendered their position still weaker by comparison. The Noble Lard then referred to to a petition from a body of persons it► the West Indies, setting forth the importance of the interests of trade, and of relaxing the restrictions affecting it. lie also referred to the Cana dians, who, if any body were entitled more than another to a relaxation in their favour of the restrictions o❑ na• vigation, were, in his opinion, most so; but he would not, he said, be swayed by either West Indian or Ca nedian; he shoal(' rather be directed in this question by a reference to the more immediate interests of Eng l►shmen. Ho felt that it the inhabitants of the pro vinces of this great empire banded themselves together in a mutual compact for mutual benefits, they might defy the world, but if they made the acquisition of wealth the sole and main object of their legislation, be assured they would fall as other nations had done be fore them, and when they fell, it would be " unwept, unhonoured, and disgraced." The Earl of CARLISLE rose, and moved that the debate be adjourned to this day. Their Lordships adjourned at a Quarter past Twelve o'clock. APPEARANCE OF TUB HOUSE OF LORDS LAST EVENING.—The lobbies and avenues to the House of Lords last evening were crowded as early as four o'c:ock by those persons who were fortunate enough to possess Peers' orders to the strangers' gallery, which wascrowded to excess. The whole of the space below the bar was likewise fully occupied, as it always is OR the evening of a great discussion. The space at the foot of the throne was crowded by gentlemen possessing the right of entree. In the Commons' gallery there were about twenty gentlemen, and the ladies' gallery, on the opposite side, was more than half filled with elegantly dressed ladies, who appeared to take a great interest in the proceedings. The attendance of Peers was early and numerous, the Marquis of Lansdowne appearing in full dress—" his constant custom " on field nights. DEBUT OF MR. F. PEEL IN TUE HOUSE OF COM MONS.—The son of Sir Robert Peel, the newly-elected Member for Leominster, made his maiden speech last evening, in favour of the second reading of the Bill for the emancipation of the Jews, and never have we heard a more successful maiden speech. The lion. Gentleman has alt the requisites for an orator. ' In To!ce, and manner, and pesonal appearance, he bears a great resemblance to his illustrious father. [his speech was not only eloquent but logical, and full of sound sense. He is in every way worthy of his sire. lie was much cheered, more particularly from the Ministerial benches, and has evidently done that which few Members do iu a maiden speech, secured the car of the louse of Com mons. BURGLARY.—A daring attempt was made on Sa turday night last to break into the back premises of Messrs. Giilott, Admiralty tailors, 36, Strand; foiled in their object by the strength of the fastenings, the thieves turned their attention to the houses on. either side, both of which they succeeded in entering. They carried off a considerable booty from the Lowther Bazaar, and did much damage to Mr. Taylor's, No. 37, by breaking open desks, drawers, &c., but fortunately did not find much there to reward their labours. The establishment of an American line of steam ships between New York and Ilavre is no longer doubt ful ; and the steam ship Franklin, which is as yet but hull-fini s hed, h as b een purc h ase d for the service by Mesas. Fox and Livingston, of New York. She will be ready for sea in about three months ; and the keel of a second steamer is to be immediately laid down.— .. Liverpool Albion:" PARLIAMENTARY MA' IStOil-S. (From the 'Votes awl Proceedings of Me Muse of Commons.) moNDAr, 31.147 7. PARLIAMENTARY -OATHS .FILL. Order for Second Reading read ; Motion made, and Question proposed, " That the Bill be now read a second time :' Amendment proposed, to leave; out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "nponthis day six mouthy:"— Question put, " That the word' now' stand past ofthe Question." The House divided: MAJORITY —AYES, 278. Gibson, T. M. Paget, Lord G. Gladstone, W. E. Palmer. Roundel' GIP), G. C. Palmerston, Via. Grace, O. D. Parker, John Graham, Sir J. Pearson, Charles Granger, T. C. Peelle'', Captain Greene, John • Peel, Sir Robert Grenfell, C. I'. Peel, Frederick Grentell, Charles W. • Perfect, Robert Grey, Sir George Philips, Sir G. R. Grey, Ralph W. Pigott, Francis Alßly, T. N. Adair, thigh E. Adair, IL Shaft° Adare, Viscount Aglionby, 11. A. Alcoek, Thomas Anderson, Arthur Anson, Colonel Armstrong, Sir A. Armstrong, It. B. Arundel, Earl of _ . Itagsha%; . , John Guest, Sir John ' Piii,iin;tori, --- .lltmes Baines, M. T. liaggitt, F. It. --- Pinney, W. Baring, t•ir F. T. II aily Lawton, Lord J. Power, Nicholas Bass, Thomas Hamner, S:r Johu • Powlett, Lord W. Bellew, it. M. liardcastle, J. A: -.- Pryse, Pryse Berkeley, Captain it 4rris, Richard Pus e y , Philip Berkeley, 11. F. Hawes, lien). I:awdon, Colonel ilt. , rkeley, C. L. G. Ilay, Lord J. Reynolds. John Denial, Ralph Ilaytcr, W. G. Wearily, Osman Birch, sit Thomas Ileadiatin, Thomas Rice. E • 11 . Black•dl, S. W. lleatlicost. John Rich, Henry .. Blake, Martin J. lieneage, Edward Robartes, T. J. Blewitt, Reginald Henry, Alexander Roebuck, JA. Brand, Thomas Herbert, 11. A. Romilly, Sir John Bright, John Ileywsod, James Russell, Lord J. Brockman, E. D. II ey worth , L. Russell, E. Brotherton, J. Dindley, Charles Russell, I', C. Itrown, W. Ilobhouse, Sir J. Rutherford, A. Browne, R. D. Ilobhouse, T. B. Sadlelr, John Bu'keley, Sir R. Hodges, T. L. Salwey, Colonel Bunbury, Eoward ]logg, Sir J. Sanders, George Buxton, Sir E. Hollond, Robert Scholefield, W. Callaghan, D. llorsman, E. Scully Francis Cardwell, E. Howard, Lord E. Seymour. Sir H. B. Carter, John B. Howard, C. W. Seymour, Lord Caulfeild, J. M. Howard, Sir K. • Sham to, R. D. Cavendish, C. C. Ilutt, William Shell, R. L. Cavendish, W. G. Jackson, William Shelburne, Earl of Cayley, E. S. Jennyn, Earl ; Sheridan, R. B. Charters, Francis Jervis, Sir John Smith, It. V. Chohneley, Sir M. Johnstone, Sir J. Smith, J. A.: Clay, James Keogh, William Smith, John B. Clay, Sir W. Keppel, George T. Smythe, G. Clements, Charles Kershaw, James Somers, J. P.l Clerk, Sir G. King, P. J. Somerville, Sir W. Clifford, Henry M. Labouchero, Henry Stansfield, W. 8.C.. Cobden, Richard Langston, J. H. Stanton, W. S.. Cockburn, Alex. Lascelles, W. S. Staunton, Sir G. Coke, E.;.K. ' Lawless, Cecil Strickland, Sir G. Colebrooke, Sir T. Lemon, Sir Charles Stuart, Lord D. Collins, W. Leonard,. T. B. Stuart, Lord J. Cowan, Charles Lewis, G. C. Talbot, C. Ti. Cowper, W F. Lincoln, Earl of Talbot,'J. H. Craig, W. G. Loch, James Taltourd, Sergeant Crawford, W. S. Locke, Joseph Tancred, H. W. Crowder, R. B. Lushington, Charles Tenison, E. K. Currie, Raikes 31`Cullagh, W. T. Tennent, P. J. Dalrymple, Captain M'Gregor, John Thicknesse, Ralph Davie, Sir H Meagher, Thomas Thompson, Colonel Dawson, T. V. Maitland, T. Thompson, George Denison, Edmund Mangles, R. D. Thornely, Thomas Denison, W. J. Marshall, J. G. Tollcmache, F. J. Devereux, J. T. Marshall, William Towneley, John Disraeli, B. Dull, Martin, C. W. '1 on - nley, R. G. . ..., Du, George S. Marti n , Samuel Townshend. CaPtain Duke, Sir J. hielgund, Viscount Trani, George Duncan,_Viscount Matheson. James Trelawny, J. S. Duncan, George 3latheson,'Colenel Urquhart, David Dundas, Admiral Milner, W. M. Vane, Lord H. Dundee, Sir David Willies, It. M. Verney Sir H. Ebrington, Viscount Milton, Viscount Villiers, Charles Ellice, E., Jun. Mitchell, A. T. Vivian, J. H. Ellis, John Moffatt, George Wall, C. R. Elliot, J. E. Molesworth, Sir W. Walmsley, Sir J. Evans, Sir De Lacy Monsen, William Walter, John Evans, William Morris, David Watkins, Colonel E wart, William . Mostyn, E. 31. Wawn, J. T. Fagan, William Mowatt, Francis Westhead, J. P. Fergus, John Ilulgrave, Earl Willcox, Brodie Ferguson, Colonel Moritz, G. F. Williams, John Ferguson, Sir R. Norreys, Lord Willyams, H. Fitzroy, Henry Norreys, Sir D. Williamson, Sir IL Fitawilliam, G. W. Nugent, sir Percy Wilson, James Foley, J. 11. O'Brien, John Wilson, Matthew Fordyce, A. D. O'Connell, J. Wood, Sir Charles Forster, Matthew O'Connor, Feargus Wood, W. P. Fortescue, Chichester O'Fiaherty, Anthony Woretly, J. S. Fortescue, J. W. Ogle, S. C. Wrightson, W. B. Fox, Richard 31. Ord, IV. Wyld, James Fox, W. J. Oswald, A. Freestun, Colonel Owen, Sir J. TELL'S& French, F. l'aget, Lord A. . Hill, Lord M. Gaskell, J. M. Paget, Lord Clarence Turnell, IL MINORITY—NOES, 155. Acland, Sir T. Farnham, E. B. Miles, P. W. S. Adderley, C. P.. Farrel*, James Miles, William Alexander, N. Fellowes, E. Moody, C. A. Arbuthaott, Hugh Fulmer, Sir E. Morgan, 0. Arkwright, George Fioyer, John Mullings, J. R. Ashley, Lord Forester, G. C. Napier, Joseph Bailey, Joseph Fuller, A. E. Neeld, John Bailey, J., jun. Fox, S. L. Neeld, Joseph Baldock, E. H. G.kidard, A. L. Newdegate, N. Bankes, George Gooch, E. S. Noel, Gerald J. Beckett, William Gordon. Admiral Ossulstou, Lord Bennet, Philip Gore, W. R. 0. l'acke, C. W. Bentinck, Lord H. Goring, C. Pakington, Sir J. S. Bernard, Viscount Goulburn, Henry Palmer, Robert Blackstone, IV. S. Granby, Marquis of Peel, Colonel Blandford, Marquis Greene, Thomas Pennant, Colonel lioldero, 11. G. Grogan. Edward Picot, Sir R. Bourke, Richard S. Grosvenor, Earl Plowden, W. H. Brackley, Viscount Gwyn, Bowel Plumptre, J. P. Bramston, T' W. Hale, It. B. Portal, Melville Bremridge, Richard HaWord, Sir H. Raphael, Alexatidir Brisco, M. Hall, Col,mel Reid, Colonel Broadley, 11. Halsey, T. P. - 'lepton, G. W. J. Bromley, Robert Hamilton, G. A. Richards, Richard Brooke, Lord Harris, Captain Rushout, Captain Brooke, Sir Arthur Ileneage, G. 11. W. Sandars, J. Bruce, C. L. C. Henley, J. W. Seynaer, H. K. Buck, L. W. Ilervey, Lord A. Shirley, E. J. Bunbury, William Mkiyard, It. C. Sibthorp, Colonel Burghley, Lord Hildyard, T. B. T. Simeon, John Burrell, Sir C. llodgsou, W. N. Smyth, John G. Burroughes, H. N. flood, Sir A. Smollett, A. Chandos, Marquis of Hope, A. Somerset, Captain Chichester, Lord J. Ilotham, Lord Spooner, R. Christopher, B. Jolliffe, Sir W. (1. Stafford, Augustus Christy, Samuel Jones, Captain Stanley, H. 11. Clive, R. 11. Kerrison, Sir E. Stephenson, Robert Clive, 11. B. Knightley, Sir C. Stuart, 11. Cobb()ld, John C. Knox, Colonel Stuart, John Cochrane, A. Lacy, H. C. Sturt, 11. G. Codrington, Sir W. Lascelles ' E. Tai for, T. E. Cole, Hon. ii. A. Law, C. E. Thesiger, Sir F. Coles, Henry B. Legh, G. C. Thompson, ..kidermal Compton, 11. C. Lennox, Lord HG. Thornhill, G. Conolly, Thomas Leslie, C. P. Tollemache, John Corry, li. Lindsay, Colonel Trollope, Sir;J. Cotton, W. 11. Lockhart, A. E. Turner, George Deedes, W. Lockhart, IV. Tyrell, Sir J. Dod, J. W. Long, W. Verner, Sir W. Douro, Marquis of Lopes, Sir:Ralph Vescy, lion. T. Drumlanrig, Vis. Lowther, Colonel Villiers, Viscount Duckworth, Sir J. Lowther, Henry' Villiers, F. W. buncombe, A. Lygou, General Vyse, K. H. B. 11. Duncombe, 0. Mackenzie, W. F. Waddington, H. S. Duncuft, John M`Nagliten, Sir E. Walpole, Spencer Du Pre, C. G. Mahon, Viscount Walsh, Sir J. East, Sir:J. It. Mandeville, Viscount Wellesley, Lord C. Edwards, Henry Manners, Lord.G. Williams, T. P. Egerton, Sir I'. March, Earl 01 Worcester, Marquis Egerton, W. T. Masterman, J. Emlyn, Viscount Maunsell, T. P. MIMI& Estcourt, J. B. B. Maxwell, J. P. Beresford, William Euston, Earl Meux, Sir Henry Inglis, Sir It. BURKE'S PEERAGE ♦ND BARONETAGE.--The new edition of this celebrated work has just made its appear. ance. The mass of information it supplies relative to the titled orders, and their wide spreading connexion, is truly remarkable. Every dem:enchant of a noble fa mily, however r, motely allied, is here recorded, as well as every intermarriage uniting the Nobility with the Gentry of the country, and every historical fact that can throw light on our ancient aristocracy. As a book of reference affording the most authentic information regarding all members of the higher classes of society, Burke's Peerage and Baronetage must ever prove mod acceptable. The present edition possesses several new and important features, and is, as usual, improved by a careful revision, and re-engraving of many of the armo rial illustrations. A curious list is given of all those Peers who inherit the high distinction of quartering the Royal Plantagenet Arms ; a Summary of " Peerage Claims," follows the history of the existing Nobles, and a full account of Foreign Noblemen, who are British born subjects, is added. THE LONDON AND NORTH-WESTERN RAILWAY. —The excellent condition of this great company's per- manent way and rolling stock, and the increase in the traffic receipts, will enable the directors to declare, at the next halt-yearly meeting, a dividend after the rate of 7 per cent. per annum, and carry a large balances to the credit of the following—viz., the best half year's receipts. We are thoroughly satisfied that the managers of the London and North-Western Company's traffics can and will, in the course of the next two or three years, save one hundred thousand pounds sterling per annum in the working expenses of the rail way.—Morning Paper. LIEUTENANT- GENERAL SIR JASPER NICOLL, ' K.O B.—This distinguished general officer who died on Friday at his seat near Reading, entered the army as an ensign in the 45th Foot, in the year 1793. He served under Lord Lake in the Mshratta war, and was present at the battle of Argaum and at the siege and storming of Gawilghur. In 1805 Major Nicolls joined Lord C4th cart's army in Hanover; in the following year he pro ceeded with the expedition under General Craufurd to South America, aid commanded a column at the assault on Buenos Ayres, in July, 1807. In 1808 he embarked for Spain, and commanded a battalion of the 14th Foot at the battle of Corunna in January, 1809, for which services he received the medal; soon afterwards Lieut.- Colonel Nicolls accompanied the expedition to Walcheren. Ile subsequently served many years in the East Indies, ard during. the Nepaul war be commanded the force which conquered the province of Kumawn in April. 1815. He afterwards commanded a brigade in the Pinciarre• Nwaicro.llAstetohmemsiaengdeeodfghl3ehu2rdtpiourfaen, itrnyldBi2vsis,i3olna,jworh.iGchene divi sion carried the left breach on the 18th of January, 1826. For this eminent service ho was the same year nominated a K.C.B. In 1833 Sir Jasper Nicolls became Colonel of the 93d Foot; in 1840 ho was removed to the colonelcy of the 38th Foot, and in 1843 to that of the ith Fusiliers, which is thus vacated. The late Sir Jasper Nicolls was also Commander-iu-Chief in the East Indies from 1839 to 1843. ILLNESS OF THE ARCHBISHOP OP YORK. We understand that the Archbishop of York has been so ill ppnfinytoed to hi s state, as W etoarebehacohowev e r, w b e e v d e daring t the his lGasrtafceewisdnayors. recovering from his serious indisposition.—Yorkshire Cavite of Saturday. SOUTHAMPTON, MONDAY, 11 O . OLOCK P.m.—The Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company's ship Pacha, Captain Weeks, has just arrived here from Malta, and Gibraltar. The Pacha sailed from the Thames about five weeks since, with a large cargo of warlike stores, comprising iron: guns of heavy calibre. shot, shells, small arms, muskets, small arms, muskets, ball-cartridges, gunpo wder, and other munitions of war, which have beers landed at various points on the coast of Sicily, on account of the insurgent Government. The Pacha cleared out bath from London and Gibraltar os tensibly, for Genoa, but after calling at the latter Fort proceeded on her secret mission to the island of Sicily. The Euxine arrived at Malta, from Constantinople, on the night of the 26th ult., Hibernia sailed a nd will, perhaps, reach here to-morrow. Her Majesty's shi p from Malta on the 26th ult., for England, and the Odia sailed the same night for Palcirmo. The Queen, 110, left Gibraltar for Devonport ton the 30th of April, and the Apollo troop-ship sailed for England on the Ist of May. NEW RAILWAY BILLS.—It is the intention of the House of Lords to pass a resolution to the effect that no railway Bill for construction. extension, or amalgsma• Lion, shall be read a third time before the 18th of May.