The Sun. — London, England, 1849-03-17 00:00:00

IMPERIAL P ARLIA3IEN T. Viscount PALMERSTON said the Neapolitan Mi nister at this court had pointed out to him that he (Vis- HOUSE OF LORDS, March 16. 1 count Palmerston) had made an inaccurate representa- The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the Wool- Lion of a conversation they had had together, in which sack at Five o'clock. he (Viscount Palmerston) had understood that the invi- The Earl of MOUNTCASHEL presented several pc- tation to Lord Mieto had been given by letter. It now titions against the rate in aid. turned out, however, that the wish expressed that Lord Petitions with a similar prayer were presented by the Minto should be sent to Naples was not contained in the .Irl of WICKLOW and Lord MONTEAGLE. letter, but a wish that he should be 30,5 had been ex- Messengers from the Commons brought up the second pressed by the Prince Castelcicala, and it was in cense report of the Poor-law Committee (Ireland), which was quence of that wish that Lord Minto had received his ordered to be printed. credentials and proceeded to Naples. REV. J. SHORE. . Mr. URQUHART was proceeding to press further Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition from Sad- questions, when he was interrupted by loud cries of bury, praying their Lordships to adopt measures for the '• Order," and was at length stopped by the SPEAKER., who immediate release of the Rev. J. Shore, and to adopt intimated that the Hon. Gentleman could not address measures to prevent ministers seceding from the Eats- any other questions than those of which he had given blisbed Church from being prosecuted for such secession notice. for the future. Mr. URQUHART then begged to ask when the OVERSEERS IN CITIES AND BOROUGHS. Nobe Lord would lay the papers on the subject upon the Lord CAMPBELL moved the second reading of the table. Overseers in Cities and Boroughs Bill. This measure Lord PALMERSTON—This day week. was mainly intended to remove certain doubts which had THE POOR LAWS. arisen as to the construction of the existing statute re- Mr. BAINES, in reply to questions of Sir J. Pa gulating the duties of those officers. kington, as to whether he intended to introduce any The Bill was read a second time and ordered to be measure f r an alteration of the law of settle committed on Monday. ment, said that Mr. King was at the present moment The Earl of CARLISLE presented a petition from the engaged in diferent parts of the country in obtain. West Riding, in favour of the Clergymen's Relief Bill ; ing information, and part of it had already been re also a petition. praying for the introduction of a corn- ceived, but the Board were not yet prepared to make preheneive Public Health Bill. any further alteration in the law. Further, he might Their Lordships then adjourned. say that it was his intention to bring in again during this session the measure which he had introduced during the last, but he did not intend it to touch the mode of rating. Mr. WILSON PATTEN wished to know when the Bill to which the Right Hon. Gentleman had referred would be introduced. He was anxious to know whether it would be introduced before Easter or not. Mr. BAINES said that the measure would not be introduced before Easter. POOR LAW BOARD. HOUSE OF CO,WMONS, March 16. The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four o'clock. TURNPIKE BILLS. On the motion of Mr. NV PATTEN, it was ordered that the time for the second reading of Turnpike Bills in England and Wales should be extended to Monday, the 23d of April next. BLACKBURN WATERWORKS. The Blackburn Waterworks' Bill was read a third time and passed. CONSIDERATION OF REPORTS. Mr. II UME wished to know whether in the course of the present year they might expect any reduction in the large amount that was now appropriated for the support of the Poor-law Board. Mr. BAINES said that if the Hon. Gentleman would give notice of his intention to put the question on a cer tain day, he would give him an answer. Mr. HUME said that he would put his question on Monday next. The report on the Scottish Amicable Life Assurance Society Bill was considered and agreed to. UNIVERSAL RAILWAY COMPENSATION. The House then went into a Committee of the whole House 0 consider a resolution which was to be the foundation of a Bill to enable the Universal Railway Casualty Compensation Company (imposition of a per centage duty) to effect a composition with the Stamp office. Mr. Hems and Mr. HENLEY thought it requisite that some information should be given to the House before proceeding further. Mr. SPOONER said that the object of the measure was to pay a per-centage on the amount of insurances affected in lieu of the stamp duty on each separate in surance, which there would be great difficulty in doing unless through a measure like the present. The SPEAKER (upon being called upon) said it was absolutely necessary that a Committee of the whole House should consider the resolution. He had therefore advised the adoption of the present course. After a short discussion the resolution was agreed to, and a Bill founded upon it was ordered to be brought in. PETITIONS. Mr. HENRY presented two petitions, one from Pres ton, and the other from St. Helens, in favour of the repeal of the navigation-laws. Mr. SPOONER presented a petition from the soli citors of Warwickshire, praying for the abolition of the attorneys' certificate duty. Mr. FRENCH presented a petition from the grand jury of the county of Roscommon against tho proposed alteration in the Irish poor-law. Mr. CLAY presented a petition from the captains and sailors of Kingston-upon-Hull against the repeal of the navigation-laws. Mr. MILES presented several petitions from places in Somersetshire against the Bill for legalizing marriages with a deceased wife's sister. Sir W. VERNER presented several petitions against the rate in aid. Mr. HUME presented several petitions, praying for a reduction of the public expenditure. The Hun. Mem ber also presented the following petitions:—From a numerous meeting of the inhabitants of the parish of St. Luke's, Finsbury, held on the 14th February, adverting to the present state of the country, and to the defective state of the representation, and praying for an extension of the suffrage; another petition from a meeting held in the National Hall, Holborn, on the evening of Feb. 15, adverting to the distress of the coun try, and complaining principally of the manner in which the poor-law is carried oat, and praying the House would take steps to prevent the farming of pauper children; another petition from a number of Chelsea pen•. sioners at Chippenham, complaining of a per-cent age having been taken off their pay; and another petition from Mr. M`Dovvelt, who is now in prison, and who was tried at Liverpool on the 28th of August last, and condemned on a charge of conspiracy on the evi dence of certain policemen, some of whom, as he al leged, were not present, and could not have witnessed the transactions to which they deposed. Sir C. BURRELL presented a petition againt the re peal of the navigation -laws from a place the name of which WAS inaudible in the gallery. Mr. SCHOLEFIELD presented a petition from the congregation of Dissenters assembling in Zion Chapel, Birmingham, in favour of referring national disputes to arbitration. .Mr. BOUIIKE presented a petition from the grand jury of Sligo complaining that the inhabitants of that county, and particularly the pooror portion, suffered from constant depredations on their cattle and sheep, and preying fur relief. Mr. P. SCROPE presented a petition from the inha bitants of Stroud in favour o! referring national disputes to arbitration. Lord 11. 'VANE presented a similar petition from tle county of Durfic re. Mr. SCULL - Y pfesented a petition from a place in Ireland against the Rate in Aid Bill. An LION. MENDER pres , .inted a petition from the Town Council of Ctipar,, praying for a reduction in the national expenditure. kr. GOULBURN presented a petition from the inha bitan of certain hamlets in S urre y, aga i ns t th e Bill for legalizing marriage with a &ceased wife's sister. • An EON. MEMBER presented a petition agreed to at a large meeting in Cornball, pra3icg for a more equal apportionment of taxation on agricultural produce. Lard MAHON presented a petition from certain soli citors, praying the House to remit the tax to which they are annually liable for the certificate to practise ths-ir profession. .An HON. MEMBER presented a petition from New castle-upon-Tyne and Giteshead, for the repeal of the duties on paper,•newsp %pers. and advertisements. STEAM-VESSELS. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY wished to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty it six steam-vessels, the Myrmidon, the Torch, the Zephyr, the o:ter, the Adder, the Dot terell, have been sold, and if sold, for what sum, and to whom, and if such sale was by private contract or public auction. Sir F. BARING said the vessels had been sold in consequence of the purposes for which they had bee❑ used having been put nn end to by alterations at the ports of Holyhead and Harwich. He had no objection to lay the papers on the subject before the House. THE LANCASHIRE AND YORKSHIRE AND SOUTH LANCASHIRE RAILWAYS. The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY said, in con sequence of a dispute between the atove-named comi a ttics, a disgraceful and discreditable Leone had taken place on the 12th inst.—(Hear, hear.) He wished to know frotn the President of the Railway Board whether his attention had been called to the subject, and if so, whe ther he intended to take any step to prevent the repeti tion of such an occurrence. Mr. LABOUCHERE replied that the power which the Railway Commissioners pos:,,essed with regard to a matter of this kind consisted in this—they had the power of interfering for the public safety, if the safety of the public was in danger, on the application of one of the two disputing companies. One of these companies had applied to the Commissioners, but had not made such an application as would entitle the Commissioners to interfere. The Commissioners had written to the com pany, and when they received their reply, making an application in the proper form, they would be prepared to take whatever Steps might seem necessary. The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY inquired if the Commissioners could not interfere without an appli cation from one of the companies. Mr. LABOUCHEIZE replied that he believed they had no power to interfere without such an application. Of course if they had committed any breach of the law They could be dealt with by a matgistrate. lAL-GROUNDS.. _ Mr. URQITHAR, I drew attention to the fact that the Government had promised to introduce a Bill with re spect to burial-grounds, and requested from the Noble Lord a distinct explanation of what were the intentions of the Government, and if they intended to introduce a Bill when they would do so. Lord J. RUSSELL replied that his Noble Friend the Chief Commissioner of the Woods and Forests had such a Bill in his possession, but he could not say when it would be introduced. Mr. URQUAXE' inquired if there would be any objection to a private M em b er i n t ro d uc i ng s uch a Bill ? Lord J. RUSSELL was glad to hear the Hon. Mem ber make the statement.--(.6 Hear, hear," and laughter.) IRISH PAUPERS IN GLASGOW. Mr. A. HASTIE presented a petition from a parochial board of the city of Glasgow, pointing out the enormous influx of paupers from Ireland into that city, and praying, as one means of preventing this, for the enactment, by the House, of regulat ions restricting th e num b er o f steerage passengers carved between Great Britain and Ireland. SICILY. . Mr. URQUHART rose to ask the Foreign Secretary whether the accuracy of statements made by him to the House had been impugned by the Government of the King of the Two Sicilies; whether any communications on the subject have passed between the two Govern , ments, and whether he would put the House in possession of such communications? Viscount PA.LMERSTON (who was very indistinctly heard in the gallery) was understood to reply that, strictly speaking, there had been no contradiction male by the Neapolita n Government to any statement that he had made in Pa rliament ; but the House was aware that l I'llar.lier . i, i n t the' Neapolitan Parliament, had Genera made by her given a contradictimonento Majesty's He co _act of the Govern . Neapolitan troops inSi cily. ( Viscount Palmerston) respecsttiantrtrets would engage to lay before Parliament, in the early pert papers upon which the st a t ements of next week, the were founded, and was only . sorry that the gr eat prevented him from pres sure of public business had hither to doing so. Mr. URQUHART s a id that the Noble Lord kad not touched th e quest i on i n t h a t par t of it which related to the invitation 9f Lord Minto to Naples. ANTIGUA. Mr. MACKINNON, seeing the Chancellor of the Ex chequer in his place, wished to put to him a question relative to Antigua. A few years ago an earthquake took place in Antigua, and, in consequence, a loan of 100,0001. had been made to them payable, with interest, by half-yearly instalments. He wished to know when the first half-yearly instalment might be expected, and whether any interest had been paid. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that last year an Act had been passed for the postpone. ment of the payment of the principal; but the half yearly payment of the interest was not touched by that Act. VOTE BY BALLOT. Mr. A. BERKELEY, in answer to a question from Mr. B. Osborne, stated that he had already prepared a measure with respect to the vote by ballot at elections, and that he intended to bring it forward after the Easter recess. SCHLESWIG-HOLSTEIN. Lord PALMERSTON, in answer to a ques tion from Mr. Sanders, said that he under. stood it was the intention of the Danish Go vernment, on the 27th of the present month, to impose a blockade of the ports of Schleswig and Holstein. The matter, however, was now under consideration, and he hoped the intention would not be carried into effect. ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. On the motion of Mr. PARKER, it wes agreed that ;he House at its rising should adjourn to Monday. PUBLIC EXPENDITURE. On the question for going into Committee of Supply, Mr. HUME said he had two motions on the paper, one relating to the reported explosions from fire damp, and the other having reference to the public expenditure. By the new rules, however, if he proposed the first, he should be precluded from bringing forward the other, and therefore, as the latter was of a more pressing nature than the first, be should postpone the motion relative to the mines till the next Supply night. Now the second motiun was as follows :—" That, in the present state of the finances of the country, her Majesty's Ministers, before calling on this House to vote the estimates for the public service. should submit a general financial statement of the whole or exeected revenues, and the total intended expenditure for the ensuing financial years;" and in the present state of the public mind it became the duty of the House to ex act such a sestemt nt from Government. If the motion were irregular or unconstitutional he should be the last to press it upon the House, but when he recollected what had taken place on former occasions on the part of different Administrations, he could not help feeling that they ought to have a budget detailed to them before they voted the money, particularly when he remembered that last session they had no less than three financial statements, and yet at the end of the session they had to borrow money to make up fur deficiencies.—(Hear.) The House ought to be put in possession of an estimate of the re ceipts and expenses of the country, in order that the [louse might have the power of bringing the esti mates within the revenue. Ministers had the means t,f ascertaining with tolerable accuracy, or at least within half a million, whet would be the expected revenue of the country, while they ought by this time to have made up their minds as to what the expenditure would be.—(Hear, hear.) The House, perhaps, was no: aware that it was usual for the Administration, in the month of November, to call on the different departments t prepare their estimates; and the House ought not to be called upon to vote a single shilling until it was putin possession of the estimated receipts and expenditure of the country.—(Hear.) The House was the trustee of the public accounts, and it behoved every Member to ex amine them with the same care as if they were his own.-- (Hear, hear.) At all events, if Government would not accede to his motion, he could only come to one of two conclusions—either they had not made up their minds as to the expenses of the country, or they were afraid to state them. They were afraid, perhaps, to bring the expenditure forward now for fear it should raise up such an opposi tion against them as would be difficult to contend against; but fortunately this was no party question. It, was nothing that affected either Whig or Tory, and as therefore there was no matter of political partizanship involved in this motion, he called upon Members of both parties to give it their support.—(Hear, hear.) Now, he could say no more on general principles. It there was any thing, or any circumstance, that could take the public accounts out of the category in which he had placed it, or out of the prudent course which he had recommended, he hoped they should hear some valid reason for preventing its being adopted, and he should bow to that reason, if he was convinced by it. He had looked for the last eighteen years at the system of the country, but he thought it necessary only to appeal to a few years, and he could not see how he would be more likely to impress Hon. Members and her Majesty's Government than by ca'ling to their recollection what their first act was on succeeding to the Government in 1830. On that occasion Lord Althorp, on behalf of the then Whig Government stated (and he believed there never was a more honest man to his (Mr. Hurrie'e) knowledge within those walls—(Hear)—he would have taken the word of Lord Althorp as soon as the bond of most men) — when he introduced his budget on the 11th of February, that he considered it his duty towards the Government and the House to be fully prepared to state not only what the revenue, but also the expenditure of the country would be expected to be, and the changes which they intended to submit to the House. t Lord Althorp on that occasion said, " The estimates were then not all on the table, but he was anxious to state what reductions the Government had made, and what they in tended to do." He (Mr. Hume) wished they were now in a situation to follow the example of the Noble Lord Althorp on that oe casion, for he stated first that the income of the country was then 50,000,0001. Then in the last year the expenditure was 59,000,0001. and upwards. Hare, then, was 10,000,0001 of increased taxation, the re sult of the administration of the public funds from that iperiod.—(hear.) He stated these circumstances with deep regret, for he never experienced more satisfaction with any opinion expressed in that House, than when he heard the Noble Lord state, and repeat again and again, that retrenchment, non-inter ference with foreign states, and economy and reform, were to be the grand principles on which the Govern-. ment would act. It was re-echoed by Lord Grey in another House; and although a number of years had passed, yet Honourable Members would recollect that period, and he would put it to them to say whether that declaration did not afford great satisfaction to the coun try—(Hear, hear.) He believed Lord Althorp, so long as he lived, maintained and kept to these principles. Since] Lord Althorp's time, he (Mr. Hume) was sorry to say that rule had not been observed. On the contrary, now instead of being in a condition to enjoy what we relief from f e ro o m f taxation, peacen weme 11;yr:talc/I xt actually, f o r tl o g m h ough t toburdens enj enjoy andy in in round numbers, to ten mil since that period, been subjected to those heavy' o a re m" th a at 3g' the expenditure of that period. l c i h o a n r s ge m s, He wished the present Administration wo u ld f o ll ow Althorp'slirhigexaGniple. Now, be s a id L ord Government of th a t d ay, h aving Althorp Lord and the adopted that course befo re callin g on the House to vote d on o e s s o in n g o le wpHe shilling, why did the present Government not therefore, said the House was bound to call on her Majesty's Government to do the same. Much, however, of the objection which he entertained to tho expenditure of the Government with which L or d Althorp was connected was at that time relaxed, be cause the Government were carrying on measures of reform calculated to benefit the people. He confessed, however, that his Hon. Friend behind him was right when he had stated that he had been "hoodwinked," and in that fact the House and the country had been induced to assent to that increased expenditure in the same way as Sampson's locks had been shorn by Delilah.—(Laughter.) The way in which the Noble Lord proposed his budget of last year would never be forgotten, since it had led to a storm which had brought about very largo reductions. And hero he would take occasion to observe that, whether the Government in office was Whig or Tory, all he wanted them to do was to put on the screw.—(Bear.) Whilst the estimated expenditure of last year was 54,5961001., the real expenditure was 59,000,0001. This was what reform had done ; and yet he had never asked for reform except that the King, and Lords, and Commons might be removed out of the power of the oligarchy, and that the Go vernmen t of the country might be carried on at a moderate rate. The Reform Bill had endowed the middle-classes with vast power, and if they hal neglected their duty, financial year began also at an earlier period. Before they were now smarting for it. With such an expendi- the change made by Lord Althorp, the financial year tuns the distress of the country could net be a matter of began on the s;h of January, now it began on the sth of surprise. —(Much disorder prevailing in the House, the April. The Honourable Gentleman was therefore calls Hon. Member complained that he could not hear ing on the Finance Minister of the present period to do himself read, and humorously referred to a ludicrous more than the Finance Minister of former times, mistake into which one of the Members of because he was now called on to state the financial the Government had fallen during the debate, prospects of the year before it had begun. If the Hon. the other night when a Right Honourable Gentleman referred to the experience of the last twelve Baronet, according to his account, had fallen into a nap, or fifteen years, he would not find a single instance in and bearing one exclamation from his (Mr. Hume's) which the income was stated before the estimates. No lips, had put a construction upon his words which persons could be more anxious to effect any practical re were altogether foreign to their real meaning.) duction than the Government. They were now endea- The Honourable Member then proceeded to continue vouring to revise the minor establishments, the estimates reading an extract from a speech of Sir Robert Peel, in for which were not yet laid on the table of the House, which the Right Hon. Baronet had called upon the with a view to making reductions in them. He was not Ministry of the day to render a full account of the anxious to lay them before the House till they had as means from which they were to obtain the sup- certained what reductions were practicable consistently plies before they were granted. He then con- with the efficient working of these establishments. lie tinned to say that if he were to talk till four thought it would bo more satisfactory that he should o'clock in the morning he could add nothing to the force state to the House the probable income and expenditure of that appeal. He had now cited the authority of three when he felt himself enabled to do so, than that he Ministers, Sir Robert Peel, Lord John Russell, and Lord should take that course when he could not state them Althorp, all eminent men, and he sincerely trusted that with equal accuracy. They had been stated in general the Government would now follow their example, and terms already. If that was all that his Hon. Friend re present a regular balance-sheet to the House, so mired, and that was all that he professed to require, that its Members and the country at large might then he did not see the use of his motion; and in that understand what they were about. If they re- sense he called on the House to reject it, in order that fused, he should certainly divide the House; and he they might go into Committee of Supply. They could called upon Hon. Gentlemen on all sides to support him. then, and not till then, properly discuss whether the es- Mr. Hume then concluded by reading the motion of timates they proposed should bereduced or not.—(Hear.) which he had given notice. Colonel SIBTHORP said that, although he was dis- Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY said he had much pleasure posed to place but little confidence in the motion of the in being able to second this proposition, believing that lion. Member for Montro se , see i ng t h at h e a l ways sup it would tend to produce an economics; administration ported the Government, he would vote for his propotie of the national finances. The course proposed was tion on the present occasion. abundantly justified by a variety of reasons —amongst Mr. COBDEN said that the answer given by the others, by what happened last session. In the last two Right Hon. Gentleman to the proposal of his Hon. years there had been an increase of between nine and Friend was not a very satisfactory one. The Right Hon. ten millions in the national debt. He entirely disap. Gentleman said that his Hon. Friend proposed what was proved of the Chancellor of the Exchequer being al- impossible. lowed to go on the Stock Exchange and sell portions of The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that stock from time to time, to raise revenue. The only what he stated was that he could not give an accurate light yet thrown on the present year's finances, was a account before the sth of April. statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman in the debate Mr. COBDEN—But where was the necessity of on Mr. Cobden's motion, that the income and th e ex . vo ti ng the supplies before the sth of April?—(Cries of penditure would probably be equal. He much " Hear, hear.") Even if it were impossible to postpone doubted this ; he thought it more probable there them till after that period, they might at least have an would be a great deficiency. Last year he had under- approximate statement as to the expenditure and estimated the expenditure by 1,700,0001„ arising from sources of income before the sth of April.—(Elear, three causes the Kafir war, the Irish distress, hear.) He wanted to have the whole estimate of ex and the excess on the navy estimates.---(Hear, hear.) penditure and income before them, but they did not The Right Hon. Baronet had argued that, as these three get that. They got the army, navy, and ordnance causes of deficiency were not likely to occur again, he estimates, but they had not got the miscellaneous esti should be able, by a reduction of about a million and a mates yet.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman half in the estimates, to meet the deficiency which would made use of one argument which seemed to him to be necessarily arise from the cessation of the corn duties, very extraordinary —namely, that they probably might the China money, and other causes. But was it not pro- be in a state of war--that the enemy's fleet might be bable there would be a large extraordinary item for the ravaging the coasts—( , No, no," from the Chancellor of war in India? Already there had been a vote of 50,0001. the Exchequer.) Certainly the, Hon. Gentleman made for the Irish distress; and he found there was already use of that argument.--(No, >no.) Surely he did not an excess on the navy estimates of 323,000/., of which misrepresent the Hon. Gentleman. some explanation Would be required.—(Hear, hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—You do The estimates, as they were called, were becoming less indeed. and less an index to the actual expenditure. The navy Mr. COBDEN could not sec how he misrepresented excess had risen in three years from about 140,0004 to his Right Hon. Friend, for he surely put the possible 343,000/.—(flear, hear.) It was a fact that in the last case of an enemy ravaging the coast. That was the year about half a million had been spent on the first argument used by him. It assumed that after 33 navy estimates more than was voted.—(tlear, hear.) years of peace they were about to go to war. This con- Though the 26th clause of the Appropriation Act allowed stant tendency of considering war as the normal state of the sum voted for one item to be applied to another, it society was what he objected to.—(Hear, hear.) At expressly said that the gross amount should not be ex- all events, while they were at peace, let them have the ceeded. Hence ,the constitutional principle which en- advantage of peace.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Let abled the House to control the expenditure was coo- them have at the beginning of the session the estimate pletely set at nought.—(Hear, hear.) On 26th February, of what the income and expenditure were likely to be. 1847, the Secretary to the Admiralty had stated that Although he admitted that the affairs of the nation 9,000 men were to be enrolled in the deck-yard corps, at were different from those of an individual, inasmuch a cost of 20,0001, and yet an extra sum of 50,0001. had as it might not be always in their power to confine been spent on this item. Unless the H ouse cou ld d ev i se the expenditure of a nation within its estimated income, some method of preventing theseeurr ence o f thi s , it was yet, even in the affairs of a nation, the expenditure no use their voting estimates at all; they might as well must in some measure be regulated by the income, be leave them to he voted by the Board of Admir a lty them- cause there was a limit to the income of a nation. selves.—(liesr, hear.) It was most important not to When the nation et large was calling out for a re allow the Government to run any more into debt; it was duction of expenditure, they ought to have the case equally important, before voting the estimates, to have placed plainly before them; and if they had the whole before them such a statement as the lion. Member for estimates before them, they would be the better able Montrose now moved for. He was convinced that in to judge, by reference to the sources of income, whether order to enable our productive interests to compete with they could fairly and legitimately vote the expenditure, those of foreigners, tsome measure of real economy must than they could when they were in total ignorance be introduced.—( Hear, hear.) where the income was to come from.—(Hcar, hear) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he The Right Hon. Gentleman knew from fortnight to was aware that the discussions on the estimates were fortnight what the progress of the income was— generally of a very discursive character, and that it was he know what the progress of the Excise and Customs difficult to confine them to the precise question before was. It appeared to him that it was for the House the House. He would not follow the two Hon. Mem- and country also to know, as far as possible, the state bers in some of these topics which they ha 4 introduced, of the national resources. Surely there was nothing and which were not necessary to the motion, to which he unreasonable in that. He did not propose to embarrass would confine himself as much as possible. This was Government, or to throw any impediment or inconve not a new proposition of the Hon. Member for Montrose; nience in their way, by refusing to vote money on ac he had frequently called on the House to reverse that count. He hoped, therefore, his Hon. Friend would which, so tar as he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) press his motion, and, if unsuccessful now, he trusted he knew had been the immemorial practice on those oeca- would move at another time a substantive motion, that on sions; and certainly the longer he remained in the all future occasions before the vote of supply an approxi. House the more was he convinced of the wisdom of those mate estimate should be given of the income and expen. rules for the conduct of its business which had been diture of the country.—(Hear.) laid down in former times, and had been sanctioned by The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the experience of successive Parliaments. The rule his Hon. Friend had misrepresented what he said —no that no vote should bo proposed in ways and means doubt unintentionally. He put the case of war merely until justified by a previous vote in supply, was as an illustration, without the slightest reference to the founded in good sense; and when the estimates present or any other time, to show bow impossible it prepared by the different departments had been would be under certain circumstances to carry out the voted, it then became the duty of the Chancellor of the course proposed for adoption by the Hon. Member for Exchequer to submit to tho House the ways and means Montrose. by which he proposed to meet that expenditure. It Mr. HUME said that if the Right Hon. Gentleman would be a sorry answer, at a time when an enemy's had read his resolution he - would see that he did not ask cruisers wore interrupting our trade in the chann e l, an d for an accurate account. There was the instance of threatening to invade our shores, to tell those who Lord Althorp in 1834, and, subsequently, of Mr. Goul claimed protection, that inasmuch as the customs revenue burn, for the course he proposed. was falling off, it was impossible adequately to protect The House then divided, when there appeared— our trade, or our shor es . H e d ou b te d very much F or the motion... 48 whether such a refus a l wou ld ten d to prevent the revenue Aga i nst it ... 97 from falling still further. The Hon. Member for Mon- Majority trose had drawn a comparison between the management The House then went into Committee of Supply. of public and private revenues. There was a great dif NAVY ESTIMATES. ference between the cases; and in one point they were Mr. WARD said that for reasons sufficiently obvious, not only not analogous, but diametrically opposed to he deferred making any observations in answer to the each other. When a man found his income increasing, speech of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir H. Wil he might be justified in spending more freely; but it bad loughby) till he commenced making his general state always been laid down in that House, and he held the ment to the Committee. In his main observations he doctrine strongly, that no improvement in the revenue (Mr. Ward) entirely concurred. There was much truth would justify unnecessary expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) in the observation that if an excess in the naval expendi- The Right lion. Baronet the Member for Tamworth had ture was to occur perpetually from year to year, laid this down as strongly as a man could do, in the very the estimates could not fairly be regarded as speech in which he announced a surplus revenue of five a j us t criterion of the national expenditure, millions—he said he did not consider that that surplus and that the House of Commons was not only justified him in calling on the House to vote a single six- entitled to call for an ,explanation of that excess, but pence of expenditure beyond that whichthe strictest ne- even not to allow it to pass without animadversion, if it cessities of the country required. Would the Hon. Morn- could not be satisfactorily explained. The present was her for Montrose, after effecting certain reductions in his the third vote that he moved since he became Secretary domestic expenditure, go to his tenants and say: to the Amiralty, and he might say the first for which " Having done this, I can now afford to reduce your the present board were entirely responsible. There was rents, and I will not call upon you in liana) for what first the excess of 185,000/, for the years 1845-6. This you have hitherto paid, and which you can fairly and must be considered rather in the light of a supplemen justly pay?" Yet, that was the course which it was tary vote than an excess. It was an addition to the evidently the duty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to navy estimates sanctioned under peculiar circumstances pursue with regard to the income of the country. If that by the Treasury, and of which the present Board of income were at any time more than sufficient to cover Admiralty knew nothing. The money was expended the expenditure, leaving a fair margin, it would be the before the present Government came into office, and the imperative duty of the minister of the day to propose Hon Gentleman opposite and the then Chancellor of the some remission of taxation, and thus reduce the revenue Exchequer would, he had no doubt, assign sstisfac to that which was actually necessary to cover the expen- tory reasons for that 'excess. Then for the excess diture. Here again the circumstances which would de- of the year 1846-7, the present Board of Admiralty termine the course of an individual, were in direct oppo. were only partially responsible, because the money ethat sition to thos e w hi c h s h ou ld d eterm i ne t h e course to be was ' ra i se d u pon th e estimate of their prede pursued in public a ff a i rs . I n t h ose i nstances i n which cessors i n office. Then c ame the excess of' 1847.8, the financial s t a t ement h a d b een ma d e at an early period amountingrspsibl to 87 of the sessi on , it h a d a l ways b een when i t was proposed and the first for which the p resent b oard were excht either to i m p ose or to cont i nue a large amount of taxa.- sively e lion; and the n ecess i ty o f t h at course arose, not from he did not at a ll d es i re to underrate. He admitted responsible, 3 ;n 3 d thel.—aweight large f excess responsibilityundoubtedly, the mere ordinary events of the year. but as a justifica- the force of the argument urged by the Hon. Ge n tl e . tion of the meas ure p ro p ose d b y t h e G overnment o f t h e man opposite against this unsatisfactory system. He day in reference to a large amount of taxation. In 1845, thought that votes of this sort might be explained and it was done because the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. excused, but could never be enti re l y justified,—(Hear,reel) then propo se d t h e cont i nuance of the income-tax, hear.) The House was prepared for the part of an ex which would otherwise have terminated on the sth cess for twelve months, though not to the amount which April. In 1842, the Right Hon- Baronet made his resulted at the end of the year. lie stated in the House statement on the 11th of March, when he proposed to ira- and more at largo before the Committee that the causes pose the income-tax. The Noble Lord now at the head of of this excess were three: the first was the increase in the Government had made a financial statement last the wages of seamen, which made a difference to the session at an early period, when he was again under the amount of 70,3241.; the second was that they had an necessity of proposing a continuance of the income-tax, average of 3,969 men more on the books than had been With those three exceptions, the Hon. Member might voted.—(Hear, hear.) The cost on this account was go back to 1831, and he would find only one case in:which 245,0001. in 1847.8, as compared with 123,0001. for the the financial statement had been made at an early year 1846-7. The third cause was on account of vic period of the session. If ho would refer to 1835, the tuals, clothing, and medical stores; the amount of that year about which so much had been 'said in connexion estimate was 308,8641. In addition to this there was the with financial matters, he would find that the statement cost of the dockyard battalions. The estimate on this was made on the 14th August. Lord Althorp, when head was in the first instance conjectural, because they making his financial etatement on the 14th February, could not know how many men would enter into these had said—" Though I thus early invite the attention of battalions, as it was to be purely voluntary en the House and the public to the subject, it is impossible trance on the part of the men. The list had been filled to do it in any but a general manner. It will be quite in up much more rapidly than they anticipated. Th e vain for me to attempt anything like accuracy as to the list being thus filled up, the Government considered they amounts of expenditure in the ensuing year. Yet the would take the most economical mode of proceeding, if Hon. Member for Montrose now called for an adequate they made arrangements at once for their organization, return of the probable amount of expenditure in the en- drilling, and clothing. The latter, which was a most suing year. And it should be remembered that the esti- expensive item, would be the last for five years. Th e mates of the three great services had already been laid on total excess on this ground was 52,0004 If they erred the table of the House, and had been some time in the in respect to these dockyard battalions he could only ex. hands of Hon. Members; these formed nine-tenths or press his regret, but the step taken by them was only in more of the whole expenditure. He had already stated, conformity with the feeling of the country at the time. in general terms, that the probable amount of the miscel- With regard to the first cause, many elements of uncer laneous estimates would not fall very far short of those tainty entered into it, because men who entered the seta of last year ; and he had also stated, at an vice three or four years ago might on l y be receiving early period of the session, w h a t wo u ld b e th e th e i r wages i n the current f i nanc i a l year ; and th e Ad. probable expenditure of the year. Th e principl e miralty found it extremely difficult to deal with that which had been laid , d own by th e Ri g ht Honourable matter.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the second cause Gentleman the Member for Stamford ( [lorries) in —the allowing a greater number of men on the books the report which he had mad e t o th e Fi nance Com m itt ee than had been voted—that he admitted to be the root of of 1828 was the sound one, namely, that their first step all the evil. Th e great thing to be guarded against was should be to ascertain the narrowest limits within which any excess in th e num b er of men.—(" ll Qar , hear," from the annual charges for the public service could b e con- Mr. Hume.) He did not mean that in the sense in fined, and after voting the estimates, to s t a t e th e means which his Hon. Friend perhaps understood it; but, at all for meeting the necessary expenditure. Such was the events, it was the great thing to be guarded against. Principle that always regulated the proceedings of the The present b oar d h a d g i v en orders for a very large re- House. He agre e d w ith t h e Ri g h t H on. G ent l eman duction of men three months after they came into office, that it was their duty to ascertain the narr owes t li m it s when there was an average of 3,436 above the number within which the expenditure of the country, consistently voted. But then came the Irish relief service, the dis with its best interests, could be reduced. H e, t h ere f ore , turbances in New Zealand, the Kafir war, the detention invited the Hon. Gentleman to go into the discussion on of ships in the Rio de la Plata, the disturbances in China the estimates, which was th e b est test for the oxaen di. an d B orneo, in consequence of w hi c h t h e commanders turn. Ile could assure hi m th e G overnment were ready a t these stations felt themselves obliged to retain the full to listen to the propositions that a n y n on . G en tl eman complement of their vessels. The number of men above might make for a reduction of expenditure. They the number voted for 1847-8 was on the let of March were prepared fairly to discuss th e est i mates, and to 5,300, the next month 4,778, next month 3,717, and the state their reasons for th e amount s which they proposed. following month 4,134. The expenses connected with He could now only repeat the assurance h e gave on a that single demand for the Irish service were almost in former occasion, that the expenditure for th e year— calculable. At one period there were on the coast one assuming that the miscellaneous estimates were o f t h e flag-ship, eight r ece ivin same amount as last year—would be within the income thirty- one steam-vcsselsg-ships, three troop - ships, and five colliers and tenders, one of the country. The Honour a bl e Gentleman said that naval transport, and two sailing.frigates. There were last year there were various financial statements made. in all fifty-one vessels, with 3,100 men, besides a bat- They had, last year, endeavoured in every way to re- talion of marines stationed at Spike Island. The duce the estimates, and Committees h a d been appointed price of coals rose from an average' of 16s. to 21. per because d ur i ng t h e w h o l e of that fearful peri o d m to ak co in n g sid th e e r ir th fl e na e n x ci p a e l nd s i ta tu te re m . ent T , h w e er G e ov o e h r i n ig m ed en t t o , afterwaiton,t there was no such thing as a return cargo to be ola. the result of the inquiries instituted, an d as soon as tamed, and freights were consequently doubled. All they ascertained to what extent they cou ld ma k e re d u c• these expenses had gone to swell that excess for which tions, they made n ew es timates accor di ng l y . wh en the the Go vernment were justly held responsible. No doubt Honourable Gentleman said that in former periods the the Treasury had p a id a ! port i on of that extra expense ; financial statement was made earlier in the year than butit was not a large portion, for there were few persons was the practice at present, he should recollect that ;he with wheal he les s d es i re d t o se ttle an account thait his Right Hon, Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.- he superintendence of the dockyards. The vete for the (Laughter.) Somehow or ether, in any matter bet ween erotic expedition having been !ound quite heed, quite to the Treacury and Admiralty, the former always had the fit out vessels for such an expedition, there was an addi best of the bargain. Under these circumstances, could Lion to the estimate of 24,822/. There was alio an item the House wonder at the fact, that the excess under Nos. of 6,500/. for the survey of the great Lagosn, running 1 and 2, had in the last year amounted to 303,4421. He parallel with the Bight of Benin. It had been lately bad never attempted to disguise the fact-indeed, he ascertained that the country had, as usual, paid dearly had stated last year-that the number of men borne had for the acquisition of geographical knowledge in Africa. greatly exceeded the number voted, and that unless it The life of Mr. Middleton, by whom the survey was could be brought down, a large excess was inevitable, first undertaken, had been sacrificed; but another gen (Hear.) Some of the causes of the excess had tleman, with a morn iron-like Constitution, who accom been in operation during the past year. It ap- panied him, had survived, and was going out again to peered from a return made up to the Ist of December, complete the labours which had been commer cad. Under 1843, that instead of the average cost having been vote 6-the establishments at home-there was a 361. 3s. 11d. per man, it had been during the first ten reduction of 3.5544, arising princineipally from months of the year 39/. 95., and it had taken ten months to diminished superintendence in the dockyards, as work down the excess of 3,947 men above the vote to recommended by the Committee of last year. 350 men below it. Whatever responsibilty was attached On vote No. 8, under the head of wages paid in the to that excess belonged entirely to Lord Auckland's ad- dockyards, there was a reduction of 86,5631.; but of that ministration of' the Admiralty. His Right Hon. Friend sum 40,0001. was reduced by the revision in August lest. near him (Sir F. Baring), had nothing whatever to do The estimates for this year included 8,926/. for addi with it. To him (Mr. Ward) it had been a subject of tional hands in the dockyard smitheries, and 3,000/. for perpetual anxiety, as impairing, if not endangering, the surveys of the yards, suggested by the Committee. For administration of naval affairs by his late lamented friend this the public had received more than an equivalent in Lord Auckland, which had, he believed, been conducted a reduction of wages to the amount of 52,5091. On vote with as pure a spirit and with as great a regard for the No. 10, re f err i ng to stores, there was a r e d uc ti on o f public interest as h a d ever b een manifested by any man 342,802/. as compare d with' last year. Last year the holding a public situation.-(flear, hear.) And he would vote was 1,511,6714 ; this year it was 1,163,8691. take that opportunity of declaring, as the result of two The reduction was composed of these items. The years experience, that ho had never known a public timber vote of last year was 489,000/ ; this year it man who had a better sense of the responsibilities was 386,000/. The vote for other stores last year was which attached to the office than that Noble Lord. 555,0001. ; this year it was 4 92,000/.-the total saving By his untiring industry, by his impartiality in the on these two items being 167,0004, which we effected disposal of patronage, and his perfect self-command, he without trenching at all on the efficiency of the had gained the highest eeteem'both of his Gallant Friends establishments. Tho reduction which took place con and of himself, and ho regretted that his departure sia'ed in the amount of consumption. Instead of 28,000 should have robbed him of the credit of a more econo- loads of timber, the estimate was for 21,860. On hemp mical administration of affairs.-(Cheers.) Every cause there was a saving of 12,000/., principally owing to a full which had led to excess in past years had now been re- in the price. Under tho head of coals there was an in moved. While the Admiralty had taken a sufficient crease of 7,000/, The estimate for contracts for Medi margin as regarded the number of men, they had also terranean steamers was less than last year by 108,0001. brought the number within the limits of the vote, and The Admiralty began the year with a heavy liability for he felt sure that his Right Hon. Friend would maintain engines, amounting to nearly 160,0001.; 20,000/, was his vantage ground firmly and vigorously. He should put down to meet the wants which might arise in respect be very much surprised if the past year was not the last of steam machinery and steamers. Under vote No. 11, one of excess in a time of peace.-(lfear.) With regard for new works, the gross decrease was 296,667/.; but to the estimates of the present year, the discussions 620,0001. having been struck off in the revision of last which had taken place on the national expenditure had year, the net decrease for the present year was only sufficiently warned him that in submitting them to the 234,667/. Those who examined the estimates carefully House he had no easy task to perform.-(Hear, bear.) would find the greatest possible improvement in the He did not say that they would please no party; because manner in which the items were stated. There was he believed that there was both there and in the country no mystification or uncertainty about them. It a party of practical and moderate men to whom any would be satisfactory to the House to hear Government might safely appeal, if it showed that nearly all the great works in the dock an honest desire to combine economy with yards were complete, including those at Woolwich, efficiency in the public service. -(Hear, hear.) lie Chatham, Pembroke, and Deplord. Very little remained knew, however, that there were also two parties, one of to be done at Portsmouth. The only heavy works whom always thought that the Government had done too remaining were those at Devonport, at Keyham little, while the other were constantly complaining that and at Bermuda. Though the amount proposed for they had done too much. He was aware that there Keyham (120,0000 might appear large, the Admiralty were soma who thought that, however the circumstances had had great difficulty in inducing the contractors to of this world might vary, in dealing with the great bul- reduce the amount below 150,000/., making the total ex wark of England, not a ship or a man should be touched; penditure on that account 599,000/., or about half the and he knew too, full well, that he had in his immediate sum originally contemplated. We had now, however, neighbourhood Hon. Members who would tell him that got into a better system of keeping accounts in the dock the reductions which he was about to propose were yards, which he was confident would be attended with merely a miserable instalment of what the country had a the best results. As to the works abroad, those at Ber right to expect.---(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Hume, sue- muda were in the least satisfactory condition of all, ceeded by a laugh.) He had thought so.-(Laughter.) There was no place where so much money had been Such gentlemen would not be satisfied with anything spent, with so little to show for it.-(Hear. hear.) The short of the standard of 1835, a standard which, so far as works at Bermuda had been going on ever since 1815, the navy was concerned, had been selected with as little and up to three or four years since no one had ever regard to past experience as to the present wants and heard anything like an intelligible notion of what had requirements of the country,--(Cheers.) It was not a been done, was doing, or was about to be very creditable coincidence that, while all parties in done. There had been all sorts of plans pro that House had concurred in taking that standard at posed, all of which had been tried, and all of which the moment, because they were engaged in a struggle had been successively abandoned. During the past for popularity and place, no party had subsequently three or four years, however, the operations had adhered to it. In the very next year, without the proceeded upon a distinct and intelligible principle ; the slightest opposition, the number of men was raised, total cost of completing them, it was ascerteined, would under Lord Melbourne's government from 15,000 to be 143,000 L, but this outlay, if the House so pleased, 22,000, and under the administration of the Right Hon, could be spread very well over several years. That Baronet the Member for Tamwortb, it was further in- the works at Bermuda, so long and expensively in creased to 26,000. The number was then increased to progress, ought to be completed, would, he thought, 27,500, and in the years 1848-49 the number was in- be admitted on all hands: the importance of the place creased, with the addition of marines, to 43,000 men, as a naval station with relation both to the West It was impossible to assign specific reasons for such Indies and to the United States was beyond dispute: fluctuations. Something must be taken on trust, some the House, however, had the matter in their own thing yielded to discretion; but certain it was that the hands, and must exercise their own judgment upon it. House of Commons bad acquiesced in every increase.- Speaking generally with reference to the public works (Hear, hear.) Now, happily, instead of leaving the under this department. he would observe that during the House to either of the two extremes, the Committee of years which the Hon. Member for Montrose insisted last year had recommended a middle course, in the pro- upon as the pattern period, these works were wholly sus priety of adopting which, as he stated in August last, the pended, with this dangerous result in prospect-that, be- Admiralty entirely concurred. Ho then stated that the fore long, Great Britain, as far as her naval stations Admiralty agreed with the Committee that the navy was were concerned, would not only lose her claim to be the proper arm of England, and that nothing but an ex- consilered a great naval power, but would be in a cessive and ill -managed expenditure could deprive it of position exposing her at any moment to a most peril the respect which it had previously enjoyed. He fur- ous blow from any other naval power that chose to ther said that the Admiralty were prepared to adopt the assail her.-(Hear, hear.) Even in the extravagance recommendation of the Committee that there should be which had followed that period of excessive parsimony a general revision of the naval stations. The stations the outlay of public money had not been at all charac had been reaLed, and he thought that with a reduction terised by that recklessness of expenditure which had of 3,000 men the Admiralty could provide satisfactorily been exhibited by many of our railway companies, for the honour and protection of the country.-(Cheers.) whose affairs were direct , d by men reported of the Since that time his Hon. Friend the, Member for Mon- highest mercantile sagacity. Rely upon it, the best trose had taken the matter into his capacious head argument that diplomacy could use to check the angry -(Great laughter.) To his (Mr. Ward's great sur. passions hich the wisest nations were subject to, was prise, however, instead of adopting the standard of to show that their indulgence would be dangerous to 1835, his Hon. Friend had created a new ono of his those who yielded to them.-(Hear, hear.) In the 13th own. He thought, perhaps, that if he proposed to go vote, Miscelaneous, there was a decrease of 13,1471., back to 15,000 seamen, 2,000 boys, and 9,000 marines. occasioned by the relinquishment of the Ilan of coast he could hardly expect the House to adopt his proposal, guard drill, the money already expended upon which, Ile had, theretore, chosen a very convenient half-way however, under the direction of Captain Stewart, had house-35,000 men -where he intended to stop been most usefully employed. In the 14th vote, for half till he could go further.-(" Hear, hear," from Mr. pay, there was an increase of 2,512/., or, upon the revised flume.) Now, of bourse, he did not think that vote of last year, of 12,5121, an increase occasioned by a reduction of 8,000 men from the number voted the number of ships that had been paid off. As to the half list year was so objectiunable, so imprudent, or so pay there existed grave misconceptions; the Hon. Member unsafe as the reduction of 16,000 proposed by his fir Montrose s: erred to regard the halt-pay list as a sort ' Honourable Friend the Member for the West Riding of Government preserve for the sons, and nephews, and (11r. Cobden), but at the same time it was much too what not, of the aristocracy. God help these parties it large, much too imprudent, and much too unsafe for the they had ne better resource than half-pay !-(Hear, Government to. assent to it. The Government proposed hear.) The simple fact was, that the officers whose a reduction of 3,010 men; his Hon. Friend's proposition names occupied the half-pay het were, to a large extent, went 5,000 men below that of th e G overnment, and after the very men who, having served their country during his Hon. Friend's reasons had been stated it would be the war against France, had when that war ceased beau for the House to decide between the two. He came deemed to have merited their country's grateful care. now to the changes in form which would be found in Of the 3,857 officers in receipt of half-pay, no fewer than the estimates. In that respect every recommendation 1,915 Here wholly incapacitated, as the result of their of the Committee had been attended to. In vote No. 1, gallant services; and the Hon. Gentleman need not fear at p. 8, the House would fi n d " t h e monthly excess of that the number was not diminishing. Between 1830 men during the present financial year;" under No. 5, and the present time death had been at its work with the " scientific branch," including the cost of surveys;" these old servants of the country. In that period 2,034 under. No. 10, " naval stores for the building, repair, names had been struck off the list by death. The Go and outfit of the fleet," &c; under No. 11, " new works, vernment would take good care that no improper aug improvements, and repairs;" under No. 13 was an ana- mentation in the list should take place; but it must be lysis of the expenditure of 1847-48; under 18, the Horne remembered, if there was no prospect of promotion, or Department disappeared from the estimates altogether, of future benefits to be arrived at, no man who could being tranferred to the miscellaneous estimates; and get a crust in any other profession would enter the aea under what was No. 19 the whole cost of the con- vice. -(Hear.) 'lo the next vote, 9,7571., for good serv i ce tract packet servic e was put un d er the head of Post- pensions and allowances, he believed not even the Hon. office department, 50,0004 being thus added to the mis- Gentleman behind him would object. As to the cellaneous estimates. Now the House had here not only manner in which these pensions had been allotted during the gross estimate and the net estimate, but they had the past three years, he would readily appeal to the judg also the revised net estimate; in other words, the esti- ment of the whole service. -(Hear, hear.) In the vote mate from which his Right 'Hon. Friend the Chancellor for civil pensions there was an increase of 6,313/. neces of the Exchequer deducted 208,0001. in August last, sarily occasioned by the reductions which had taken place under votes 8, 10, 11, 13, 14, and 19, which were given in the various yards, involving, as a matter of mere jus in a separate table in page 2. The House would, how- Lice, superannuation allowances in a number of cases. ever, perceive that the gross estimate was the only fair In the 17th vote, for transports, there was a diminution of point of comparison bet,veen these estimates and the 700,300/., arising from the circumstance that there would estimates of last year; because what had hitherto ap- this year ba fewer reliefs than had been known for many peared as appropriations in aid were now paid into the years past. The Post office vote spoke for itself, He Exchequer, and the country received the benefit. The would only, in reference to it, state that when the Holy gross unrevised estimate on nineteen votes for 1843-9, head Company should think fit to propose reasonable was 7,518,610/. The decrease on votes 1,2, 5,6, 7,8, terms, the Government would willingly transfer the 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 17, 18, and 19 amounted to no less packet service between Holyhead and Dublin to the than 1,703,3021.; the increase on votes 3,9, 14, and 16, Holyhead Company.-(Hear, hear.) As to future changes amounted to 12,200/. The apparent saving was 1,691,1021. in the dockyards, these would, in future, depend in great From this was to be deducted the whole of vote 18, for the measure upon the respective heads of the yards ; and, home department, t rans fe rre d to the miscellaneous esti- in their selection of the heads themselves, the Board of mates 53,9501.; 611,662/. being deducted for contract Admiralty must look less to the mere duration of past packets, and 183,1951. for the packet service -Queen's services than to the present aptitude for active and ener vessels, stores, repairs, &c., there was a total re- getic work in the candidates. With reference to the duction of 848,807/., leaving as the actual saving on building of ships that took place last year, material votes No. Ito 17,842,2954, as compared with the unre- errors were circulated. We began, certainly, in 1815, vised gross estimate of last year ; the saving on the con- with an immense capital of shipping, and we had tract packets being 25,646/., and on Queen's vessels, spent it lavishly. Since that year, the total reduc stores, repairs, &s., 75,515/. The decrease on the two tion on vessels of all rates was 175 ; there having estimates was 938,856/, and if there were deducted for been 482 broken up, or cut down, or lost, and 304 built, saving by revised estimate of 1848.9, 208,000/., the net the necessity for new building was clear. There had been actual saving upon the estimates of 1849 50 would an entire change in the calibre of the guns mounted by amount to 730,8561. Now, he might be told that there other countries, necessitating a similar change on our was some truth in these figures, and that he sought to part; and the principle of ship-building itself had, as a make a comparison between the revised estimate of this matter of course, been to an important extent changed, year and of 1849 as actually voted. Many of the cal- The battle of the Nile was fought with 1 8-pounders; culations made evidently turned on that point, and it was now, 60 and 68-pounders were common in all ships. The to that he attributed the monstrous discrepancies as to rate at which ships were building had been very much the amount of saving which, by some, had been reckoned exaggerated recently. Most Hon. Members would have at upwards of 900,0001., while others had made it as low seen a statement in which it was asserted that there were as 366,0001. But if the revised estimate and the actual no less than 67 ships of all classes on the sucks, This vote of last year were compared, the result would be was not only an absurd assertion, but it was impossible the same. The net revised estimate for 1848-9, to be true. There were only 36 ships of all rates with the credits in aid deducted, amounted to now building, and the error most probably arose 7,726,610/., and the deduction of 208,0004, left in the writer of the statement having taken, into 7,518,610/, as the actual vote of last session. -(Hear.) his calculation ships, the order for building which The vote proposed for this year was 6,260,740/. The had long since been cancelled. It was the in apparent saving was 1,278,000/.; and, deducting the es- tention of the Admiralty to adhere to the pro timate for the three votes transferred, there appeared a gramme laid down by the surveyor of the navy for the saving on the net revised naval votes, Nos. 1 to 17, of next five years, and to carry it out in all its parts. There 449,9084; the saving in tho packet estimate of 66,064/., was another point on which he must touch. It had been brought the actual saving, as compared with 1848-9, to asserted that ships, if used well, would last forty or fifty 515,972/, and with appropriations in aid now paid into years. This was a mistake. The average duration of the Exchequer, amounting to 214,884/., they arrived men-of-war was fifteen years, and at the end of that again at a net saving of 730,856/. He admitted that the period they underwent large repairs, which were almost figures were complicated, and difficult to understand, but as good as rebuilding them, The Canopus had been held such was, he believed, the actual saving as compared up as a model of what a ship ought to be, and the ex with the gross revised estimates of last year. He should traordieary length of time that vessel had endured had be told perhaps that the Government had been duping also formed the grounds of much misconception. It had the country, and had promised a great deal more than been asked why ships of a similar build, and lasting as they had performed. In the statement made by him on long, had not been constructed. The Canopus was taken the 20th of March, 1848, he had shown a saving in 1798, and she cost almost immediately after she was of 456,8534, principally on works, steam machinery, captured 16,000/, to put her into repair. At five different and stores ; and he also held out a reduction in stores , periods sub sequen tly- name l y, i nlBl6, 1826, 1831,1842, &c., of 150,0004 making a total of 606,000/. 208,0004 and 1845-she had undergone repairs which amounted was afterwards struck off in August; and here was a re- in the aggregate to 135,5234, a sum which would have duction of 730,0001., so that altogether there was a say- sufficed to have built two similar ships. The Nelson, ing of 938,000/. He'would now state in what way this again, had been cited as another example; but the saving had been effected. In the first place, he must money wasted in the decorations and carvings of that state that, under No. 1, the reduction of men had been vessel was enormous, and then she was never fit for ser absolutely neutralised by the rise in the average price vice. The beautiful system of Sir Robert Seppings" of of wages from 36/. 3s- 11d. to 89/. 95.; which was the putting round sterns to men-of-war, had cost the country actual cost on the Ist of December, 1848, when the Ad- 1,500,000/, which was entirely thrown away.-(Hear.) miralty reverted, for the first time during the last ten He had little more to say, save to thank the House for years, to the rule laid down by the Right Hon. Baronet the indulgence shown io him. He trusted the navy was the Member for Ripon, of taking the cost of vessels in in such a state as to satisfy all those who desired to see commission as the basis of the estimate for the year. England maintain her naval superiority. The Board of The result had been a reduction under the head of naval Admirality was taking measures to ensure responsibi packets of 27,000/. Under vote No. 2 there was a debility on the part of all the heads of departments in all crease, as compared with the same vote last year. of the branches of the naval service, and the Hon. Mem -115,051/. There they obtained the whole benefit of ti e her for Montrose would find on the part of the Govern reduction, both in the number of men and in the cost of ment the strongest desire to carry out the most rigid provisions. In vote No- 3 there was an increase of system of economy, consistantly with what they deemed 911/., principally in the surveyor's department of the the true interests of the country. He begged, therefore, Admiralty, the object of which was to improve that de- to conclude by proposing that the number of seamen, partment, and to prevent it from being so dependent as it marines, and boys employed in the ensuing year in the had been on political changes.-(Hear, hear.) He could navy be fixed at 40,000. not speak of the present surveyor, without saying how The vote having been put from th e c h a i r, fully qualified he had proved himself to be for his office. Mr. HUME said that the candour of the Hon. Gen. -(hear.) Amongst the advantages which the public tleman had surprised him. No one who heard the details had derived from hie services wake greater efficiency in given by bilnof the extravagance dud waste committed in the naval department would be surprised at the efforts made by those who wished to effect a reduction of tha expendituns. The Hon. Member had asserted that the navy was in perf ct order. He, had never heard any other statement from persons occupying the Hun. Gen tleman's situation. Never was it acknowledged that any errors had been committed by the naval authorities. But was it not a reproach to the House to have sanc tioned such a system of extravagance as that which the Hon. Gentleman had exposed? The Hon. Gentleman had stated that in 1815 there was a large fund of ships form ing the naval stock of the empire. If he turned to " Han sard," he would find repeated attempts recorded therein as having been made by him (Mr. Hume), in 1816 to 1825, in order to put a stop to.this extravagance. Within those years, no less than 23,000,0001. had been wasted on the navy, But how was it that the Hon, M em ber had discovered all these extravagances and misdoings? He bad moved the naval estimates during the last two years according to his own statement, and how was it that he bad never before detected the faults be now laid hare? Whence did the light break in upon him? Tte Committee it was thatpiad brought all these wasteful pro ceedings under the public eye, that Committee for movs ing the nomination of which he had been so much abused. He must say, to the credit of the Noble Lord who sat near him, that he deserved the utmost credit fer his efforts and labours, but still there would be very g reat difficulty before any results were attained. Every Mem. her of the Committee, of whatever party he might be, had also done his utmost to promote the objects of the inquiry, and to expose the errors of the past manage^ ment of the navy. But notwithstanding the Honourable Gentleman's admissions as to the past, he must bear to be told that the actual management of the navy was not a bit better than it had been. The number of ships that were building, and the quantity of stores that was re quired, did not accord with the professions of economy that had been made. With respect to one point on which be had been somewhat unfairly subjected to blame —namely, as to the effect produced upon honest hard working artiains and shipwrights by the reduction of men which he proposed, ho must beg leave to say that he had not been aware of the manner in which reductions of the establishments bore on individuals affected by them. All be had to say was that men were enticed from other oc cupations, and led to expect permanent work in the ser vice, and then the Admiralty in a sudden fit of economy —(A laugh) —yes, a sudden fit o f economy, wh i c h contrasted strangely and even violently with their habitual extravagance, discharged a vast number of these shipwrights, and threw them without resource upon the labour market. When he was told, as a reta sun why the charges for building and repairing ships were so heavy, that the country required a certain force to be kept up, he must say that the mode of keeping up that naval force, by letting the ships rot in harbour, was most wasteful. Why net have a cer tain proportion always at sea in turn ? The fault lay in the House not looking more narrowly into the esti mates before they were proposed in Committee of Sup ply. In France and Belgium the Ministers were com pelled to justify every item in their respective budgets before committees of the Assemblies previous to being permitted to propose them in the Houses of Assembly. He had vainly tried to enforce the same system here. lie could not understand why the estimates should not be referred to a Committee upstairs before they were pro posed in Committee of Supply. He made these remarks because he thought that by perseverance—(Hear, hear) —he should be auk to succeed in compelling the Ministers to take the course he pointed out. Let there be oblivion guaranteed for the past, provided the Government en tered upon a new course, now the errors of former Ad ministrations had been discovered and admitted. There had also been some very severe reflections made upon him, as if he had grudged the half-pay of the naval officers. He did not grudge any pay for past set vices, hut he did object to see young men entering the navy and thrusting aside older men, who were compelled to pass their lives in the re ceipt of half-pay, whilst they were burning to be actively employed in the service which they loved. His Hon. Friend (Mr. Ward) had stated that the service of the navy was carried on independent of patronage. That might be true as far as Lord Auckland was con cerned, and he hoped it would prove true for the future, but certainly it was not so as regarded the past, when patronage was certainly the governing principle. The Hon. Secretary for the Admiralty had expressed a hope that the House would not support his amendment; be would, therefore, proceed to state the grounds upon which he moved it, in order at least to enable Hon. Members to understand what it was he proposed. Ile had taken as the .basis of his calculation of the number of men required for the navy, not the favourite year 1835, but an average of the five years from 1835 to 183 9 inclusive, during which period the mean number of men employed in the navy was 31,469. The House was now asked for 40,000, whilst in the year 1840, when the Sr rian war was raging, there were only 34,000; and whell, the Noble Lard, th e F ore i gn S ecretary, proposed to add 7,000 marines to the naval force, he (Mr. Hume) bad unsuccessfully opposed him. Bat he did not desire to bring the number of men down to the average O f 1835-39, nor yet of 1840; but simply to reduce them to 35,000. Was he rash in asking the House to descend again to the level of the years 1835-39 ? He would even be contented if this was effected gradually, provided it was done; and of that the Hon. Gentlemen might be quite persuaded the country would at length make sure. Down the number must go. Woul 1 the House believe that the number of ships at present was 460—namely , 208 in ordinary and 252 in commission, added to which there were 32 ships now building. Let them put an cod to building altogether. The proportion of ships on' ployed on foreign stations since the year 1835 had very greatly increased. On the Pacific and south-east coast of America station there were, in 1835, 14 ships and 2,091 men. In 1848 there were on the same station 26 ships and 5,431 men, showing an increase of 12 ships and 3,340 men on this station. On the west coast of Africa and tho Cape of Good Hope there were eln".. ployed, in 1835, 13 ships, and 1,065 men. In 1848 there were 37 ships and 4,647 men, making an increase of 24 ships and 3,582 men. On the Mediterranean stations where, according to Sir G. Cockbu rn , one ship-of-the lin! and 2 frigates w, r e a safficient squadron in times of peace, there were, in 1835, 23 ships and 6,236 men: in 1848 there were 31 ships and 8,337 men—making 11 , 0 increa eof 8 ship s an d 2 , 101 men. Now, he would 55°. whether there was not on these three station an e xcess of ships and men, and whether 35 ships were not capabl e of doing all the duty that was required in those sees' All he asked f or was , th at a reduction of 8,000 spies", the proposed reduction of 3,000 of the Government , should be agreed to. Now, what was the proposition which, ho submitted to th e H ouse ? There were 59,000,000 " collected in the course of the year ; and out of that stll , and not out of the 11,000.0001. he proposed to mak e reductions. There were 41 millions expended in collect' ing the revenue; but he was convinced that 2 millions annually would clear the whole expense. The estimate s were characterised by most extraordinary extravagance; and the confessi ons o f t h at night could not lessen the anxiety to diminish the expenses, for it was now admitted that they were in a condition to call upon th e Government to have every department overhauled. -- (Hear, hear.) The cost of collecting the revenue wa s its much now that 700 articles had been struck off the list as when they were 1,100 articles on which it was collected. He contended, and would repeat, that 2,006,0004 should cover the wh o l e c h arge; b ut if t h e y employed in on 3 case nine commissioners, and in another seven commissioners, t o d o t h e work of one, they c ould not expect to have any limit to their expenditure. -- (Hear, hear.) In addition to this he would make the. crown lands producti ve , an d i n t h e c i vil list he wou ld make a considerable reduction.—(Cheers.) Why should they have three or four pensioned chancellors, with 5,0001. a year, when one acting chancellor would suffice? Was it not possible that by abolishing the mock sovereignty ie Ireland they might save 100,000/. a year? And was it not possible after the exhibitions they had had with re" gard to the navy, ordnance, and army to make great re- ductions in those departments? And in the colonies again, was it not monstrous that three or four millions a year should continue to be paid for their managemen t when the people of England actually needed the nee" ^ series of ,life?—(Cheers.) He would ask whether out of that 59,000,0001. it could be denied by any person who had looked into these estimate s that a large sum might be spared?—(Hear, bear) But if they wished to economise they must reduce tile,. number of their men to the average to which he hel l referred, and must determine, as he hoped they would, that this vote should be reduced to 35,000 men. Sir F. BARING concurred with the Hon. Gentlema n who had just s a t d own , i n t hi nking that it was a gree t misfortune that that House sometimes looked with ve i l large and liberal vi ews a t t h e pu b l i c expenditure, w hilst at other times they were i nc li ned to throw themso l r eo into the opposite extreme, and to reduce the expenditur e below what was absolutely essential.—(Hear, Having been a member of the Committee which ba d sat upon this subject, he was inclined to admit that owing to irre g ul ar i t i es or a want of system, there had " been an expendi ture w hi ch might have been saved' Still, they must remember the circumstances of th e case. The introduction of steam, for example, Int l the navy, had c h ange d t h e whole face of war, and .1 was necessary that this country should not be left 111 an unprotected st a t e . I n A pr il , 1848, there were 45, 94 ‘ , ',. men actually on th e b co k s , an d they proposed now t ha t 40,000 only should be voted. It was proposed practically , then, that there should be a reduction of 6,000 men in the course of the year; and the Hon. Gentleman now proposed a still further reduction of 5,000 men, makin% thi in all nearly 11,000. He did not thi n k, h owever, the Hon. Gentleman had made out g roun d s for any su c h reduction. The world was not qui e t i n 1835 or 1848' His Hon. Friend forgot that they were compelled by treaty to keep up a squadron on the coast of Mies' That squadron could not be got rid of by reducing th° number of seamen. That had been a subject of inquiry before the Committee, and he trusted that the House would not, from moti ves o f economy, so far give way /i / to reduce the number o f men with a view of getting ri d of the squadron. Th ere was another point which his Hon. Friend had likewise omitted to mention. We were bound to keep up fi ve sh i ps in China, These squadron , I c ti re m a t a e t d ter a s of tiec t e his ity ki f nd, areliance or 2,500 e) r 3, must ooo be additional wet p l ace d to certain extent on t h ose who were at the head of the Go vernment It would be easy for him to show, by its' c i parison with the force of other countries, that it won not be advisable to have less hands than there were; bu t a , he was glad to be relieved from such a task, which wa s always one of an invidious kind. He thought it bct to place this matter on that which was the real constitu tionalo ground, viz., that of its being a question of c o f % dence, the Government of the day being the best jucl e r_, of the state of affairs. The Hon. Gentleman admitted that commerce required protection; and if he (Sir_. Baring) did not admit it, he should be reminded of it very often. Since he had been at the Admiralty, had not been without applications from different parties' asking, under the present state of a ff a i rs , no t nuna rally, for the protection of a British ship of war , _ and believedsince b ehad th e h efirstld the e t that presenthe per forme , me wasd i n t othe answer Hous.ea: c 1 40 2 11914 of a ga1 1 4 1 41 citiver, whether be THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING-, MARCH 17 1 1849 - eXpl, SpE