The Sun. — London, England, 1820-10-10 00:00:00

PARLIAMENT, HOUSE OF LORDS-MONDAY. THE QUEEN'S DEFENCE. [Continuation of Yesterday's Proceedings.] CuaULEi MILLS, Esq. was next called in and eX. amine(' bs Mr. DENMAN. _ _ Q. You generally reside at Rome ?—A. I do. Did you reside there in the summer of 1817 ? I aid. had you then the honour of seeing there her Rual.llighness the Princess of Wales ?—I had. Did you call upon her Royal Highness called upon her Royal highness upon her ar rival. Do you know how long she remained in Rome? I remained there myself but twelve days, there fore I cannot tell how long she remained. You left before her Royal Highness ?—I did. Had you the honour of her Royal Highness's t cquaintance before that period ?—I had. Daring the twelve days you have spoken of, were you repeatedly in her Royal Highness's to use ?—I dined at the Hotel Europa most days w;th her Royal Highness. Can you inform us whether at that period she was visited by persons of rank ?—She was. Can you mention some of their names ?—The witness mentioned the names of an Italian Ba roness and a Duchess who were appointed to wait upon her Royal Highness as maids of ho. LOUT. • Had she a guard of honour also ?—She had all the same marks of distinction paid to her at that priod which were paid to other Royal Person ages residing at Rome. You have mentioned two Ladies who were ap pointed to wait upon the Princess as maids of honour—were there other persons of raukin the h‘bit of visiting also ?—There were. Can you mention any of their names ?—Lord Ki.lworth visited her. The Abbe Taylor was a v:onstant guest. At other times, besides at dinner, were per sons of rank in the habit of paying• their respects to her Royal Highness ?—Persons of rank came to pay evening visits. Was Bergami at that time her Royal High- Chamberlain ?—He was. Did he in. that character dine at her Royal Hiliness's table ?—He did. Have you often seen her Royal Highness and her Chamberlain Bergami in company together ? --Frequently. Did you ever see the smallest impropriety of conduct between these individuals ?—Never. Does that answer apply to the period of her Royal Highness having been in Rome as well as to other periods also ?—Perfectly. Did you pay your respects to her Royal High ness at Pesaro, in 1819 :—I did. On my return from Venice, I called at her Royal Highness's villa near Pesaro. Her Royal Highness was out airing when I called—but when she-' returned she sent her carriage and Equerry 'and Mr. Wil liam Austin to desiie one to come to her that evening. And you went ?-1 did. flow long did you remain ?—I arrived at her house about seven or vight o'clock. I remained tiwre the evening, supped, and returned to my Did you pay your respects to her Royal High- I.tS3 the following day ?-ller Royal Highness sent. her carriage and her equerry to show me whatever was worth seeing in the town of Pesaro. Did. you afterwards wait upon her Royal Highness ?—I returned with the carriage, and dined.with her Royal Highness. Did you remain that evening in her company ? —After having walked with her Royal Highness in the grounds, I remained an hour and then pro ceeded on my journey. Had you the honour of paying your respects to her Majesty after she became Queen of England ? —I was at Rome when her Majesty arrived. When was that ?—ln 820. Can you state the month ?-1 . hardly know the mouth, but I think 'it was in February. Had she received the account of the King's death ?—She had. 'Had she assumed the title and dignity of the Qaeen of England ?—She had. Had she then two ladies of honour appointed to attend her I—She had not. Was there any guard of honour in attendance upon her Majesty ?—There was not. Notwithstanding this circumstance, did per sons of tank in Rome, English and Italian, do themselves the honour to wait upon her Majesty to pay their respects ?—Several. Did you know those persons ?—I can speak of those who wrote their names in her Majesty's book. We cannot hear what was written ; I ask you what persons of rank you saw ?—I saw none ; I Gull knew it, or heard of it. Did you happen to know at that period whe ther the funeral of his late Majesty had taken place ?—I think it had. Do you know whether Bergami was Chamber lain to her Majesty in 1819 and 1820 ?—iie was. Was there any difference in the general ap pearance of her Majesty's household during the three periods in which you had the honour of seeing her ?—Noue. Did you ever see any thing in the conduct of these two parties towards each other in the slightest degree derogatory to the character of the Queen of England, or likely to wound the moral feelings of her country ?--Necer. Did you, in your intercourse with her Majes ty, ever see her Majesty conduct herself, in pahlic or private, in a way which could justly be called exceptionable ? :The ATTORNEY-GENRRAL objected to this as a leading question. Mr. DENMAN said, that the charge against her Majesty was, that both in public and private she hiul r.nducted herself in such a manner as to bring disgrace upon this country, and to put the . 1.04)ral feelings of its people at defiance. Here j was an individual who had had an opportunity of making correct observation upon her Majesty's conduct, and he contended that his Learned Friend had no right to object to the opinion which he might, with that opportunity, have formed. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that if this ques• tion was objected to for the sake of regularity, they must hear the objection formally stated. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, he only ob. jected to the leading manner in which the ques• tion had been put. Mr. BROUGHAM contended, that there was no• thing leading in the manner in which the ques. tion had been put. The Lonn CHANCELLOR saw no objection to the question in the abstract. Lord LIVERPOOL remarked, that if evidence was let in as to the general conduct of the Queen in one instance, it must be perm;tted in others. The LORD CHANCELLOR.—The opinion of a witness may be received in evidence, as to any thing which may have come under his own ob servation. The question was then repeated to the wit ness—and he answered, " I never did." At any time when you have seen Bergami and the Queen together, did you ever observe any thing in the conduct of the former disrespectful, or such as in his situation you were induced to think unbecoming ?—No; he always conducted himself towards her Majesty with the utmost respect. There was no degrading familiarity between them ?—None whatever. Cross-examined by the ATTORNEY••GENERAL. Q. Did Bergami dine with her Royal High ness at Rome ?—A. He did. Where did he sit ?----In no particular place. I have seen him at different parts of the table. Have you seen her Royal Highness and Ber gami at other places in Rome have seen Bee gami in attendance upon her Royal Highness at other places at Rome ; at the Corpus Domini and elsewhere. How did he attend her ; in what capacity ? As a Chamberlain. Where was her Royal Highness at the Corpus Domiui ?—ln a box. Where was Bergami ?—Behind her Royal Highness. Standing or sitting ?—When I saw him he was standing. Were any other of the suite there ?—Several. How many times did you dine with her Royal Highness at Rome ?—Upon the first occasion three or four times ; quite as many. Do you recollect the names of the persons who called upon her Royal Highness ?—Many Cardi nals and Ladies .of Distinction ; the Cardinal Gonsalvi was one. I usually left after dinner, and the company came in the evening. If there were many persons there, you can enu merate some of them ?—Her Majesty generally saw company in the evening, and I dined with her. When you say that many other persons called, do you mean that you heard so, or do you speak from your own personal knowledge ?—From my personal knowledge, I was there one evening, and I saw them as I was going past on others. On the evening, or evenings which you were there, can you name any other person of distinc tion whom you saw, besides those you have men tioned ?—I cannot. In 1819 you paid a visit to her Royal High ness at Pesaro ?--I did. Did Bergami sup with you and her Royal Highness at Pesaro ?—lle And dine the next day ?—He did. Can you mention the persons who dined at her Royal Highness's table at Pesaro ?—There was Vass7.li, Bergami, Madame Oldi, and William Austin, and two other persons with whom I was unacquainted. Was Louis Bergami one of those persons ?—I cannot say he was ; I am nut sure that I am ac quainted with his person. Then the only occasions on which you saw her Royal Highness were at Rome and Pesaro ? They were. _ Re-Examined. Q. Did you know her Royal Highness before she left England ?—A. Yes, I had that honour. By a Peer. Q. Did you feel any objection to sit down at table with Bergami ?—A. I cannot say I did. When did you leave. Rome ?—ln April last. You did not leave Rome in consequence of bearing that proceedings were contemplated against the Queen ?—No. By Lord LI VERPOOL.—In 1817, when you were in the habit of visiting her Royal Highness at Rome, did you see any English Ladies who called at her house ?—lt was at a time when there were not many English at• Rome; I did not see any English Ladies. By Lord MArisner.o.—You have stated, that in 18120, at Rome, her Royal Highness took the style and dignity of Queen of England ? The LORD CiiiiICELLOR.---This question has already been stated. Do you know that application had been made to the Government of Rome for a passport far her Majesty the Queen of England ?—I know that an application was made to the British Consul. Do you know whether application was made to have her Majesty designated as the Queen of England ?—I know there was. By Mr. BROUGHAM through the Lord Chan cellor.—lfow do you know this,,?-11cr Majesty told me. (Thes e questions were ordered to be struck out.) Did you know that Bergami had waited at table as a servant ?—Cornmon report had inform ed rne•—(Struck out.) By Lord FALMOUTH.—When you dined and supped in company with the Countess of Oldi e were you introduced to her ?—I was introduced to her the first time. What were her manners F—They were unob trusive and natural. Did you consider them as those of an Italian Lady ?—I did not consider them otherwise. Was the Italian she spoke good—pure Italian? —She spoke with the accent of Lombardy. You did not think that indicative of vulgarity ? All persons have it who come from Lombardy. By Lord Livcaroor,.—Was the Italian she spoke grammatically correct ?—I am not suffi ciently versed in the language to answer that question: Did you ever, discover any thing incorrect to your knowledge. - ?-1•To. When were you introduced to Countess Oldi? In Isl 7, when her Majesty arrived at Rome. Earl GREY—How long have you been in Eng land ?—I arrived in May. Ilas any application been made to you for in formation respecting the conduct of the Queen in Italy ?—Never. JOSEPH TJEULLIE (a Frenchman)examined. Q. You were a Colonel on the Staff, formerly in the service of the Viceroy of Italy ?—A. Yes. And afterwards upon the, taff of France ?—Yes. Are you a Chevalier of the Orders of the Iron Crown and Legion of Honour ?—Yes. had you a brother a General of Division?—Yes. Do you know Bergami ?—Yes. Where did you first know him ?—lle was Marechal de Logis (Quarter-master) in the first regiment of Italian Hussars. In what year was that ?—At the end of 1800 and the beginning of 1801, and the eighth year of the French Republic. Was your brother the General who command ed Bergami at that time ?—He commanded a brigade of cavalry (two regiments), and the' first Hussars was one of them. Were you Aide-de-Camp to your brother ? Yes, t *as Aide-de-Camp to my brother Gene ral Tieullie. What was the conduct of Bergami at that time ?—(Objected to by Mr. PARKS.)-The con duct of a good sub-officer and a good soldier, who had never had any thing to reproach him self with. Did your brother knowßergami at this time ?Yes. Did he conic from the same country ?—Yes, they are countrymen. Did Bergami ever come to the dinner or sup per parties of the General ?—No, I never saw him there. Did you continue to know Bergami then, or was there some interval before you saw him again ?—A great deal of time intervened. Did you ever see Bergami at the evening par ties of the General d'Alamberte ?—No, I did not see him, but I knew that he went to the house of M. d'Alamberte. When did you see Bergami the second time ? —On the frontiers of Spain, in the year 1808 and 1809, at the time when Marshal Suchet com manded a division of the French army, which proceeded to Spain. In whose service was Bergami at that time ? He was in the service of General Pino. In what manner was Bergami treated by Gen. Pino ?—With a great deal of confidence, because he was a person who had the General's own con fidence. Did you visit Gen. Pino?---I Visited Gen. Pino when business of the service required it. Did you see Bergatni on these occasions ?—I have sometimes, not always. Do you know of your own knowledge that Bergami dined with General Pino's evening par ties cannot affirm that. In what estimation was Bergami held by Gen. Pino and the officers, and how was he treated by them ?---He was received with the greatest con fidence, as a man who enjoyed the whole confi dence of a person in the situation of Gen. Pino. In what esteem was he held by the officers ? Ile was very well received as an honest and faithful man. Cross-examined by Mr. PARKE. Q. Did you know Bergami when he was in pri son at Lodi ?—A. I never heard any thing of it. Was Bergami a servant of General Piuo's fa mily ?--He was a confidential courier of General Pino, and entrusted with his affairs. The Duke of CLARENCE here expressed his dissatisfaction at the translation of, the last an swer. The French word was particuliere, and he should like to be informed whether that word had ever been translated " confidential." After a conversation between several Noble Lords, the French word was ordered to be in serted iu the Minutes with the translated answer. What do you mean by the word particuliere Do you mean a private courier, or what ?—lres, he was a courier particularly attached to Gen.Pino. Did you see any thing of Bergami between. the year 1800 and the year 1808, when you saw him in the service of General Pino ?----Nu. At what period of the year 1808 or 1809 was it that you saw him in the service of that Ge neral ?----I do not particularly recollect. It was when General Pino's division was marching on Barcelona. But can you say about what period of the year it was think it was about the beginning of winter. Can you not say whether it i-as of the year 1808 or 1809 ?--I cannot say precisely. lam almost sure it was the beginning of winter. How long had you an opportunity of seeing Bergami in the service of General Pino ?—As a division does not always remain together, but are detached, I cannot say how long he remained where I was. Did the division march at the time ?—We did not actually go on the march, but moved to pass the river Hue. Was Bergami always hi the dress of a courier ? —ln common clothes. Were you ever in England before ?—Never. When did you first come to London ?—Six weeks ago. Have you remained in England ever since you came ?--The first time I remained in England 21 days. Where did you go afterwards ?—To Paris, to my house, where I am established. Did you remain at Paris, or did you go any where else ?—i never moved from Paris without leave of the General of Division and the Minister o f War. Were you at Beauvais when you went to Pa ris ?—ln going to Paris, I was with a messenger at Beauvais. I passed Beauvais in the oigbt; the messenger did not stop. • t P You passed through Beauvais the nig h co w Yes ; I passed through it at night with t he , is rier, and it is always night by the time ,cour chesrßeauvais. f a `''‘DO loNa.prson .N oof the na2,4 1 1 „Si 411k 4 -‘, tYlkiiVes at . *alio ?-114 ;q. lfnffep ers°- that name from Lugano. Did you see him at Paris ?—Yes, once. , N 7 o :i Was that when you were last at Paris ?---'' i it was before my first coming to England. 111 0 How long ago is it ?—I think between to ° '' three months. Had Rossi any one with him when Yo u . hint ?—No ; he was alone: ; Had you then heard of the tumult at Dove rf Yes, I had read an account of it in the Fre t the papers. Did you communicate that to Rossi ? ----SLit i nothing was said about it. o ce, Never ?—Not by me. I saw him but i. ° u p and that was for only about a quarter of on ` l° That was the only time you saw him .---- ,ii. Who applied to you to come here ?—The Q u '" ~ How did she apply to you ?—By letter. , [The witness very composedly took snuff (Jur ing his examination.] ' Lif ts Mr. WILLIAMS declined re-examining the ness. What were the different degrees in the se rlif i s i in which Bergami was ?—The lowest degr e e ier , hussar, the next is brigadier, and then (lun g. ' master, and then marshal de logic. fo r Lord CATHCART.—What description of sl a g t tion do you consider that held by Bergami o° l General Pino to have been ?—He was eda m ' n o . . to General Pino as courier of trust and c ° ' dence. V' Was he attached to him as a domestic ? r ' There is some difference in this partici' o r ' si , Courier to a person of rank is not looked on a servant in Italy. fs' Do you know from whom he received h is •J d t lary ?—I know nothing about that, because 1 101 not belong to the household of General Pin ° ' Ll l6 ' was my superior officer, and I could not me d . with his private affairs. Do you know whether Bergami's COBllec ti ?' with General Pino had any relation to his pu h - llc o,i service ?--I have already stated twice tha t i i , was confidential courier; further I cannot ° p a . because I did not belong to the household, $ 0. 4 could have no knowledge of the private canc er of my superior officer. The witness was then withdrawn: CARLO FORTE examined. of By Mr. BROUGHAM through the medial:oo the Italian Interpreter.—Q. Were you e ! courier in the service of the Princess of W ill —A. I was. • ' ' h When did you enter into the service of her Roy's t - I" nets ?—On her departure from Milan. Do you recollect if that was iii 1817 ?—Yes. 00 1 In whose service were you before in Italy, before yoa _ .. .1 into that of her Royal Highness ?-1 was in the sera the Viceroy of Italy. ..-7 • 4° In what quality were you in the Viceroy's service • chief courier of the capital. p 0 1 You said that when you entered the service of oe, - .:1 , cess. she was going away from Milan, where Was she IVO° . To Rome. Did you apply to be taken into her service ?—Yes, I a id '' , Now what was your motive fur making that applicati on ' Because I was at that moment out of place. ~ o n You told us that her Royal Highness was going to bad you any relation there ?—Brothers. Any other near relative ?—'The Duchess de C o logne. What relation was the Duchess to you ?—My aunt. the . In what carriage slid her. Royal Highness travel o ,,tet• ' journey from Milan to Elaine ?—ln a small English 1110. - „ar How many other carriages had she with h e r on that- ) " ' ney ?—Two more. a n d Of what kind were these two?—One was a Cabriolett a. the other a Bastadella. Ca f ' What sort of carriage was the Bastad e lla ?—ft is - riage covered, with four seats inside. i i g nr Now, was the landaulet you have spok e n o f an Engl° 3 riage ?—lt was. Was it different from the bastadella ?—lt Was it of quite a different appearance I—lt was, with e l different seats. th at Did her Royal Highness have any other carriages o n journey I—No. el. li. Now, in which of those three did her Royal Il i g . ' travel I—ln the landaulet. Had it glasses as is usual with such carriages I—lt ha d. Had it any curtains ?—Yes. of What sort of curtains 1—Sill:. idt , Do you remember whether those silk curtains tErew $9 . ,,p bf up and down with a spring ?—They were pulled 61 °' wef t means of strings, which kept them combined, and they lifted up with a spring. - „4" Now, do you remember leaving Rome to go to Sep ii lia I—l do. Did you travel by night or by day?—By night and J a f' Did you pass the first night on the road ?—Yes. , z . i i4ati' When did you rest the fi rst day on the road ?—At ' A 5 at nine in the morning. , .., When did her Royal Highness rest the second day' ten in the morning, at Loretto. And at what time did you arrive at Senegaglia ?---T n4 fat ; lowing dy, at 1 o'cloc Do you a know a person k • of the name of Sacchi or S accb'°i.. —I know Sacchini. Did he accompany her Royal Highness on the joa ntir# have just been speaking of?—He did. A ff How did he travel on that journey ?—From Milan O br ie: cone on horseback, and from Ancona to Rome in the c n g oil letter from Loretto to Rome the same as the day bef(taie at Loretto I mounted on horseback myself, and aeco ni r her Royal Highness to Rome. Did you mount at Ancona or Loretto?—At Lorett?.oelf Front Koine beck to Senegaglia, how did Sacchit" b oat . " and how did you ?—Sacchini was in the cithriulettar " ,r , ' and I was on horseback beside the carriage. fill What was his business in going before the carriage ' order the horses and pay fur them. 7 a orof s How did you travel on that same journey •-•-• 4' horseback. ..i s )ts tll 'be r Did you accompany the carriage on horseback • f , 0,, to t . When you near any ge, go on Royal Highness's were carriage 1 sta —About did half y ou a mile before ..„1, ing the end of a stage. Do you mean to say, that excepting that half mile' f r 43 os ways kept close t the cariage ?—I c. Did Sacchini o r der the r horses of th e Princess whe n i t : o f i ) : ‘ before her, as you have described, during the 1 01 1 - . j ai ' journey front Rome to Senegaglia I—He did, spa r 1,-• them Did any o ther at the same ti rso me. , i onei . pen ride as courier on that iiii' There was not. Ce r"l If there had been, must you have seen him - ...- l e t because I was always there. . ncis u • on % t V h h a o t t o r: e t: s l i t: ri ff 1 — with e h , e e r , Rzy h a e l , it Highness oyal ll i giltitnit tit CoL:of test of Oldi, Bergami. and Victorine. tha O t n j Did you ever see her, in the morning, Ott the ii" In tie journey? 11a_p Verydi d i d V o i cftt often i i o i en filege n e l . ra p l l ,; v f sit her iiitt0t...:_i,.,.,0 5,1:05; Countess of Oldi ?—Sometimes. 5..- ro ' ln ' t ' middle, did the Countess of o:di sit in the carriage • 4 liere Do you mean in the middle, between the, 133, fight, Royal Highness ?—Her Royal Highness W 55 "-Willy' i roef Baron was on the left. and the Countess in tlie;stie.i.:ni the Do you recollect whether during front Milan to Rome, and front Rome to ' , , ca rratt c ,.. r isg‘ Countess of Oldi ever travelled in Ali,' ' , th e ' - co ndo' ,§. Loretto she was taken ill, and Went into the sc fit., lo ot Whose place did she take in that carriage ? v any part ,eincegly,,At Witc ": 01 2111, Do 7 , Atte lat Atte; th t_ ere it 4 41 . the: f Pule