The Sun. — London, England, 1824-06-11 00:00:00

t:Lostiy hear, objected to the manner in which these petitions were got up. Mr. GRENFELL explained, and the petition was ordered to be printed. IRISH CATHOLICS. . . Lord MILTON presented a petition from certain Catholics of Ireland, with The prayer of which he could not entirely' agree, because they asked for the disarming of the Orangemen. Ile thought this would be imposing upon that class the same grievance of which the petitioners were complained of. What Ne wished to see in Ireland was union, and an entire oblivion iof the past. He would remove from the Satute Book, and, if possible, from the memory of the people of Ireland, all that reminded them of the tyranny and oppression under which they had been governed. Sir W. W. WYNN presented a petition from Wrexham, relating to the case of Mr. Smith. Sir N. COLTHURST presented a petition from Cork, against the Warehousing Bill. ' After a few words from Mr. GRATTAN, Mr. BERRIES, Mr. C. HUTCHINSON, and Mr. BRIGHT, the petition was ordered to be printed. Sir N. COLTHURST presented a petition from Cork, re lating to Mr. Smith. IMPRESSMENT. Mr. HUME presented a petition from King's Lynn, com plaining of the system of naval impressment. The Hon. Mem ber said, that if any Gentleman who read the petition could dis sent from its justness and policy, he should neither envy him his opinion, nor any feeling he•possessed. Mr. C. HUTCHINSON said, that the petitioners did not state the extent of the grievance. —Ordered to be printed. CATHOLIC PETITION. Mr. C. HUTCHINSON rose to present a petition to the House in favour of the Catholic Claims, signed. by 900 Catho lic inhabitants of the City of Cork. He received this petition on Thursday last, and since then the state of the House had not warranted him in presenting it until that evening. If it were said that the number of signatures was small in comparison to the Catholic population, he could assure the House that that circumstance did not arise from the want of general feeling upon the question amongst that class. There never was a mo ment when a more universal anxiety was felt and expressed by them for the restitution of their rights, and he was happy to state that they were now unanimously agreed as to the pro priety of looking to Parliament for the origin of that act of Justice. These petitioners prayed for the total and unqualli tied repeal of the penal statutes under which they suffered, and rested their claim upon the broad principles of right by which all men were entitled to equal government. He was glad that the petitioners had made this appeal, and he wished to press upon the attention of the House the confidence with' which they looked to Parliament alone for relief, and the de termination they expressed to continue their exertions for ob taining it. After this he should like to know what answer he must make to his constituents when they asked him how it was that Ministers had allowed the Session bypass away without calling the attention of Parliament to this most important—to this imperial question, as he would call it, for it was the question of the union of the people. He wished the Right Hon. Secre tary for Foreign Affairs would tell him how he was to answer the Catholics upon this point. He could not tell them that it was owing to any misconduct of their own. Their attachment to the-Crown and to the Members of his Majesty's family was enthusiastic. They knew that in that Royal quarter there was, and ever had been, a strong feeling in favour of Ireland, and of every thing that was Irish. It was only for Ministers to have the honesty and the justice to advise the Crown, and relief would be cheerfully granted to the petitioners at once.— When, therefore, he found that the Catholics were thus attach ed to the Crown anti the Constitution, and that they discharged every private and public -duty with integrity and honour not to be surpassed, he could not turn round upon them and tell them that the indifference of the House of Commons to their grievances and complaints arose from any misconduct of their own. Neither could he find any thing in the circumstances of the country, or of the times in which they lived, that could justify the refusal. When he found all this to be the case, and when he further found the Popedom to be power less and unambitious, he could devise no apology for the conduct of Parliament. He was equally at a loss to find an apology for the supineness of the Ministers. He could find rone e not even an example, in the acts of those Governments to whole they were in the habit in that House (and none .mere than himself) of reproaching for the principles under which they acted. Under all these circumstances he felt, though he should be sorry for the Catholics to participate in the feeling, seeing that nothing was likely at present to be done in their favour—that there never could be a moment so favourable as the present for restoring the rights of which they were so unjustly deprived. He was proud to say that he had always advocated this as a sacred cause. Ile was proud to have imbibed his feelings upon the question fern a beloved and resptzted parent, and lie was proud of belonging to a family which, under every varying circumstance., had every exertion to effect the great object of emancipation. But he had not supported the cause in commiseration of the suf ferings of the Catholics, and on their account alone, but as a question on which the interests of the community at large were deeply involved. 'The Government would sooner or later be obliged to look at the question like men, for it was impossible to get rid of it by a side-wind. Until the Catholic populaton of Ireland were satisfied, there could be no security for the empire. Let the House look at what would be the state of Ireland, in ease of war with an active enemy on the opposite coast, if that country were left in its present insecurity. Ile hoped that the Catholics did not despair, for he was confident feeir cause must succeed eventually. That the petitioners did rot despair was evident from their appeal to that House. If tieere were Catholics who under such feelings proceeded to Violence, he was sorry for it, for he was convinced the cause could only be injured by their own misconduct. He moved that the p etition be brought up. Mr. B ECHEIt fully concurred in the prayer of the Peti tieeers, and was glad of every occasion to express his senti ments upon this question. He was anxious to caution the House against suffering the statements of misconduct and error eta_ the part of a few to weigh against the just claims of the Catholic population of Ireland. They who were spectators of ethea passed, were not qualified to judge of the feelings which led to these excesses. In fact they were only so many proofs of .the correctness of those argeunents which went to spew the ne cessity for removing Catholic disabilities. —(H ear !)—When he heard of violence committed in Ireland, he could not help pic turing to him.elf what would be the state of England Under the same circumstances.—( Hear !)—The country would ring front one end to the other with the clamour that would be raised; and a refusal to grant relief would shake the empire to its centre. If, on the other hand, the people should display any jod ifference to their grievances, lie should like to know whether ttiise who possessed rank and property would rot do every thing in their power to excite them.. He was confident that many of ,the most distinguished of those who now heard him woulld be amongst the first to stimulate the mass of the people to a just _sense of their degradation and suffering.—(Hear, hear I)—He _cordially supported the bringing up of the Petition. The Petition was brought up, read, and upon the motion of Mr. C. HierciiiiesoN, ordered to be printed. Mr. HUSKISSON presented two Petitions from Liverpool, but front the manner in which they were read by the Clerk, we --could not hear their object. Lord NUGENT presented a .Petition from Princes Risbo roogh, against Slavery in the West Indies.—Laid on the table. SCOTCH SMALL DEBTS. Lord A. HAMILTON rose to move for leave to bring . in a Bill to extend the operation of the Small Debt Act in Scotland, to double the present amount. He complained that the Re port of a former Commission upon this subject had been suf fered to lie upon the table for three years unnoticed, and that the Lord Advocate had suffered a notice which he had given to stand over so long as to be too late for the present Session. Upon the subject of Courts for the recovery of small debts, be held Petitions in his hand from the incorporated trades of Perth, Aberdeen, and another place, praying that their power should be extended to sums of ten or twelve pounds ..H a trusted that the late period of the Session would not be an ejection to the introduction of his Bill. Upon the me rite of the case he was.satisfied there could be no objection, and he thought none could be made up on the g round that the Re port had been three :years before them without any measure being taken upon it. He intended to introduce the precise Bill ,recommended by the Commissioners of Inquiry, making the 7 sum eo- which the Act would extend la instead of 5/. He moved for leave to bring in a Bill to .and amend the 30th and 40th of Geo. 111., cap. 46. The LORD ADVOCATE objected to the motion. The subject formed no part of the duty entrusted to the Committee. It was not only the creditor who was to be considered. The debtor required some consideration, and ought not to be left b . y summ ar y p rocess , a t th e mercy of the creditor. Most of the imprisonments in. Scotland were for small debts ; a circumstance !finch would not be overlooked by those who disapproved of i c i a n a p s r , is s onnient for debt.. The .Edinburgh Court decided 181 each day, at the rate of two minutes each cause— (A laug. )—and it was not desirable to extend such a system without much anti caution and consideration. The. whole •sub ject was under the considration of Government,; but. he had no.o l ,3jection to th e mere b r i ng i ng i n o f t h e Bill, i n or d er th a t tl.e House might see it, judge for themselves of the collies 17::ieh attended the ce: •The Lord Advocate, in con- - ciil3i6 l ll. shortly j..lstified his out the military force on room t affecting the p a u t z r l e 31A N i p : LL supported ticiePeace at Glasgow. motion. a l s o spoke in fove ae of the motion. In most, lirr. HUMID -caws V.-Ile-rein. the debt was . bt!t. 151., the e m 4$ Amprisonment fur nces came to more than that snna. debt, he wished to see it abolished altogether. In many parts of the world it had been already abolished with much advantage to commerce. After a few words from Lord A. HAMILTON in explanation, leave was given to bring in the Bill. STANDING ORDEna; Mr. BRIGHT gave notice that if iieCori r imittee now sitting on the subject of the StandingDrders relative to, Private Bills, did not suggest an aliqration nf the present practice, he should himself do so early in the next Session. INSI TRRECTION ACT. A Message from the Lords here announced their Lordships' assent to several Bills. Among - them was the Irish Insurrection Bill, which, on the motion of Mr. Gour.nuitx was imme diately read a first time, and ordered for a second reading on Monday. IMPRESSMENT. Mr. HUME rose to bring forward his promised Motion on the subject of Impressment. After. a few general observations on its importance, the lion. Gentleman proceeded to state that he had been deterred from bringing it sooner before the House in consequence of the pressure of other business. All that he should now ask, would be for a resolution of the House to inquire into the subject next Session, and for certain. Returns to afford the information which would then become necessary. He contended that the present system could not be justified unless it were shewn that the very existence of the Navy de pended upon its continuance. He had no wish to cripple the power of the Navy; on the contrary, he thought the changes which might he introduced would iucrease its power, and the number of volunteer sailors. It was admitted on all sides that voluntarily service was preferable to that which was coerced. He thought he could prove that the system of impressment had done much mischief to the service, by causing it to be viewed with apprehension and dislike. Even should this prove not to be the case, still the House, /by inquiry, would be enabled to shew that they respected individual rights, and had _at least at tempted to remedy the present admitted evils. The present practice of seizing and compelling persons to serve had con tinued for many years; and many opinions , of. an opposite na ture had. been given as to its legality. Lott legal or not, h e objected to it on account of its being inconsistent with our Constitution ; and he therefore cared not if it was legalized by five hundred Acts of Parliament. The subject had been ably argued (though he thought eroneously decided) by Judge Foster, on a question which came before him in conse quence of a press gang being resisted, and one of them kill e d , The Learned Judge thought the practice of impressment was legal through the prerogative, of the Crown, provided it was not inconsistent with any statute, or with public utility. He (Mr. Hume) fully concurred in this; and was prepared, in a .Committee, to shew that the practice was really inconsistent with public utility. It was generally admitted that there was no express law to justify impressment. It was founded en tirely upon the practice of the Crown. Even if it were thought to be generally useful this would not justify it, unless the utility was of a - degree to override all the con stitutional rights of the subject. Sailors in time of war were declared to be the best defenders of the country, but there was no class of men whose rights were so little attended to. The practice was generally justified under the plea of necessity, but necessity was too often the argument of tyrants. The fleet of the great Admiral Blake was manned chiefly by volun teers, and we ought always, if possible, to man our ships in the same manner. Whenever the practice had been complained of on former occasions, the complaint was always met by a called for postponement until peace should have arrived. A bill in 1779 had been brought in to alter the practice, but it had failed, because it was brought forward during a time of war. 1 (The Hon. Member here referred to Captain'Manby and other 1 writers on the subject to spew their opinion of the inefficacy Of impressment.) The .naval service had many advantages which the merchant service had not; and, yet the disadvantage arising from, force and the length of service counterbalanced the advantages, and caused a disinclination for oar service. —There were, however, some disadvantages even in the naval service. Irregularity of payment of wages had, he ad mitted, been greatly remedied by Lord Melville's Act. The. amount of pay, however, was small compared with that of the merchant service. He feared also that there was too much reason fur us to look at the practice in America. In the naval service of America, there was no impressment; so' that when the two navies canie into contact,, they were rat upon equal terms. It was impossible to say, that in such a case it was freemen lighting against freemen. Besides, America gave better pay than we did. Another objec tion to our practice was the length of service; a length so great, that it was difficult to distinguieli the case of an im pressed British seaman, dragged from his home, from that of the African black dragged from his. He (Mr. H.) really be lieved that the sufferings of the former were greater than those of the latter. Ile thought, on the whole, there could be no doubt that such a system ought to be put an end to ; but, at all events he thought they should inquire whether it was practi cable for them to abolish it or not. It caused an appearance of imprisonment on board a ship, which was irksome and discou raging even to volunteers. Another objection was the mode of punishment which was followed at present. Ile knew this was a very delicate subject; but he could not forbear noticing it.— One great object would be to inquire whether punishment could not be rendered more defined and less arbitrary than it was by our present maritime code. Government had sent out orders respecting the black slaves, but he begged to appeal to them in behalf of their white slares.—(Hear, hear!}—He did not care for " Hear, hear !" He repeated the expression ; and be thought sonic regard ought to be shewn towards the white slaves.— As to the former (the Blacks) it was ordered that no more than three lashes should be given without a regu:ar entry. Ile de sired, therefore, for the sailors, that a man should not be liable to be punished in the Navy without a Court Martial, except I in cases occurring in the face of the enemy. Re believed that the best and most humane officers entertained opinions unfa vourable to the practice of flogging. The chief argument used by the Hon. Member for Bramber (Mr. Wilberforce), was di rected against the giving of arbitrary power. In one case it had been carried to such an excess that there was no man in the ship who had not suffered corporal punishment. It was impossible to suppose that men would become volunteers un der such a system. In one case he found it was a practice to flog a man who happened to have a dirty shirt. A contrary practice had been found most beneficial to the interests of the service. That such severity was not necessary to the disci pline of the Navy he had the authority of a very intelligent Naval Officer who had written a pamphlet, in which he stated, that for 18 months that he was on board a 71 gun ship, not one instance of corporal punishment occurred. At the same time this Gentleman challenged any ship ii. the navy to surpass the ship of which he spoke in discipline and good order. The Ho nourable Member quoted other instances of a similar nature, and one in which a considerable increase of corporal punish ment had been found unavailing to suppress the practice of drunkenness. It was absolutely necessary to be attentive in the appointment of experienced officers to the exercise of such a discretion as that of arbitrary punishment over their fellow subjects. If this were done, volunteers would be found suffi cient to man the nary, and thus the odious system of coercion might be done away with. Another thing to be observed, to induce men to volunteer for the navy, was, a better distribu tion of prize money. In the case where the Captain had for his share 3701., the crew had 2.101. Surely this was not a fairpro portion, and some other ought to he adopted, if the system of 1 impressment are to be done away with. Another important topic to be considered on this subject was, the consequence of enforcing the right of search in case of any quarrel with a foreign power. It was evident to him, as far as he was a I judge that it was the sole cause of the last American war, and thus the cause of ninety millions of debt which that war cost. If they looked at the Message of the American President, it certainly was number one there, and there could be no doubt that this was the great exciting cause in that country which lighted up the.fiame of discontent. A Newspaper was ac tually started for the sole purpose of recording all the cases of impressment from American ships which occurrecL The Honourable Member here read the affidavit of a man named John Clerk, who stated that he had been taken from an American ship by force, imprisoned on board a British ship, flogged three times, and chained by the neck because he re fused to serve under the British flag. •He did not mean to say this not exaggerated ;he did not believe it himself, but lie contended that there should have been no cause given for any such statement or exaggeration. lie knew it was impossible to assimilate our navy to that of other nations, but some ' thing like an approximation to a parity of reasoning, might show that the thing was possible. So long as there was one hundred thousand men in the merchant service, lie could not see what difficulty there could be to man the Navy without impressment, if adequate inducement were held out. But in the present s t a t e o f t h e ser vice no man would voluntarily enter a ---he shunned it as he would his greatest curse. The ag gravated sufferings of the unfortunate men who suffered im pressment, ought of itself to be sufficient ground for in quiry: Besides which it involved a violent infraction of the liberties of the subject, and whilst their attention was drawn on one side by the situation of the slaves in the West Indies, aud on the other by the sufferinas of the brute creation, he thought a little time might be "'devoted to inquiry into the so ff ee ings of the seamen of En g l an d. The Hon. Member con cluded by moving as a Resolution—" That this House being well aware of the difficulties in the way of manning of the navy, and of the evils to which fo rc ibl e i mpressment o f sea ; men must lead, arid considering that a time of profound peace is the , beat for the consideration of so i m p ortant a quest i on , r esolve, that early in .the next Session they will take the sub ject into serious consideration, with a vie w t o suc h steps ae shall afford efficient means to man the navy, and ensure the best interests of the nation:" Mr. ROBERTSON secoutle the motion. An enquiry he thought might lead to a mitiptloo of the evils of impressment, but he was convinced that it would be impossible to abolish impressment. Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said, that in rising to oppose this motion, he should not follow the Hon. Member for Aber deen through the extensive range which he had taken. Although the question involved in his motion was impressment, the state of the nary seemed to he the topic upon - which his speech had turned. lie should, however, class what he had to say under impressment and discipline. Upon the first the Seconder had r ea lly scarce l y l e ft hi m any t hi ng the Icon. two heads to say, for he had given it as his opinion that the Navy could not do without it; and if no good were to be derived from ac ceding to the motion they had really better not go into any in quiry to excite hopes which they were satisfied they could not realise.—(Hear e was sure lie spoke his own and the senti ments of every Naval Officer in the House when he said that he had much rather man the ships of war without impressment. (Hear !)—But, with this feeling, after the best attention he had been able to give the question, he must say that it was his opinion that they could not do away with what he must call this leer, with safety to the country. When the Hon. Member declared that it was illegal, was he a ware t h at L or d M ans fi e ld , w h en a • sailor was brought before him who had been impressed, de . d ared that he had not shown that lie was exempt from impress ment under any statute, and ordered him back to the ship irons which he had been taken. Lord Kenyon also had stated that there was a right to impress recognized by the common to which all persons in seafaring employments were subject.— There was one clear reason why it should not be abolished—it was impossible that there should at the same time be enough of men to man the navy and the merchant service. It was out of all reason that more men than were wanted should be afloat ; and unless they were to keep the men that would be re quired in time of peace ready for a war, they could not do without impressment. What was the state of this coun try when a war broke out ? The seas were covered with our merchantmen ; the ports, no thanks to the Honourable Member for- Aberdeen, were full of ships, well appointed and ready for service, and the arsenals were full of - stores. They had a good corps of marines also, no thanks for it, how ever, to the Hon. Member for Aberdeen. Under these circum stances they had nothing to do but go out as the ships came into the Channel, and take the men they wanted. Any men would do for the merchant service to replace those they thus lost; besides which, the Navy from that moment took them under their protection. In the last war the country was put to no expence for the Navy, for the ships were all ready in dock wanting only men, whom they could get at a short warning. It was a total mistake to suppose that impressment was car ried on during a period of peace. It was never resorted to but in cases of great emergency. It was not fair for the Hon. Member to speak of the navy in the way he had done, for it was a profession, in spite of what he said, which had great claims upon that House. So far from there being an aversion to join the .King's service, the Admiralty had been forced to give the most rigid orders that volunteers should not be taken from the merchant vessels, and it was a most difficult thing to keep the crews of the merchant ships away from tlae men of war on a foreign station. While this was the fact e it was rather unfair - for the Hon. Member to make the statements he did, re lative to the great disi .e he declared there was for the navy. America was his favourite, but he knew that there was great difficulty in preventing the desertion of their men, and many had offered to serve on board the ships of the British Navy.— The condition of the British sailor was now snperior to that of any class on the same footing, and it was the daily study of the Admiralty to iniprove it. He should therefore oppose any motion for such a purpose, especially one which went to pledge them to do the next Session, which they all agreed would lead to no good. He next came to the question of discipline. The Hon. Member objected to Captain's having the power of flog ging; but the Hon. Member ought to have observed the dis tinction between having a power and using it. What would be the situation of a few officers over a large body of men, many of them the worst characters, if th e y had not the power, to de ter them from offence. But the r:xecutive was doing all it could do to check severity in corporal punishment. They had succeeded as far as they had hitherto gone, so that this was a practical answer to the Honourable Member's proposi tion. Besides which, lie did not think diet House the fittest to deal with such a question. It required soma nautical know ledge, the ignorance of which would really always prevent a Committee of that House from laying down rules for the con- • duct of a ship. If the Navy were paid as the Honourable Member suggested, once a week, they would not, he was Sure, like it so well as receiving their whack of money when they came home. The naval service lie contended was now the most popular, and it' not made discontented the Navy would con tinue very contented. They had got one boon which would do them more good than all the Hon. Member's speeches. This was the long service pension, which gave every man a pen sion for fourteen years' service, atal enabled him to demand his discharge and an increased pension. These things were dom.: since 1614, so that it was realty a r = ist unfair thing for the Hon. Member to come down there to make statements of what occurred forty yet:l.s ago against what existed at the present pe riod. He should certainly oppose the motion. Sir ISAAC COi'FIN said he , should never raise his flag again, therefore the House might safely take his opinion. If the lion. Member had not called the Navy White - Negroes, lie should probably have said nothing upon the subject. There was Admiral Mitchell, Admiral Trowbridge, and the celebrated navigator Captain Cook, were all men who had been impressed. So much, then, for men who were slaves. He had no doubt but 20,000 such slaves would be found on the records of the. Navy. For his p a rt he . cared not for th e l ega lity o f th e thi ng , the Navy must be manned, and lie would neveradmit that there was any slavery in obliging a man to wear a good coat on his back, a belly full of good victuals, and good medicine when lie was sick. He concluded by declaring that lie should give his vote for impressment. Mr. 11013110 USE said, he could very well conceive that a man might have a good coat on his back, good victuals in his belly, and good medicine when lie was sick, and yet be the ve riest slave alive. It was not the absence of these that made his Honourable Friend call the seamen of the Navy white slaves. It was the precarious situation they were in liable to be dragged away from his home . and friends at a moment's warning. lie had never heard of the exploits of the Gal lant Admiral opposite when afloat, but lie must inform him that the country knew what his Honourable Friend had done on shore, and expected much more from him than from the Gallant :Admiral. Even the. Gallant Admiral admitted that every Officer in the Navy desired a cessation of impressment. This of itself he should have thought would be sufficient.— The Judges had shown what they were by the decisions they had made in the impress cases which came before them. All who had written on the English Constitution considered the impressment of seamen the greatest blot and injustice to be found in the annals of the country. An Hon. Member had seconded the motion in a way not very favourable; but still the Hon. Gentleman could not withhold his support. On the whole he thought they ought to grant inquiry. The question was whether it was not a great acknowledged evil ? It could only be answered one way—What objection could there be to inquiry ? The gallant Admiral had said it.would excite dis content. It would not create discontent. Could it be said the seamen were satisfi..d, contented with the system ? With re spect to punishment in the navy, it was said men had been so flogged in the merchant-ships that they ran to the nary for protection. That very statement made out his Hon. Friend's case. Sir G. COCKBURN, in explanation, denied that he had ever said men were dragged to the navy like felons. Such a statement never escaped his lips. He had never said sailors were so degraded as to require flogging more than other men. He had stated candidly the effect of his professional experience. Mr. HOBHOUSE explained. Capt. GORDON was desirous of saying' a few words on the subject of impressment. He wished it could be dispensed with, but unless the Hon. Member, for, Aberdeen could change the whole system of the Naval Service, it would be found impos sible to induce men upon emergency to quit merchants' ships and enter into his Majesty's service. Twenty-five sail of the ling might be fitted out for service at short notice, but not wit - bout pressing. He was aware it might be said, the practice of impressing seamen was unjust, and lie was ready to admit it was only justified by necessity, but at the same time, should the exigency of the country require it, every individual would lie liable to serve. He expressed a hope that Parliament would never strike a de at h - bl ow to t h e N av y, by taking away th e power of impre ss i ng men to defend the commerce of the eoun. try. Without th a t power , t h e N a vy, which had so long been a terror to surrounding nations, would be reduced to a state of insignificance. Mr. W. SMITH was surprised the proposition of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen was not adopted. The present practice was attended by many evils, and. it was reasonable to suppose there would be a disposition to inquire how far the evil could be removed. The question had been argued in that House over and over again, and lie believed much good had arisen from the discussion. The Hon. Member saw no reason why the pro. posed inquiry should not be allowed. Sir G. CLERK admitted that it was in the power of the House to enter into any inquiry of this sort, but the majority of Members were not so competent to decide upon the . question as persons whose lives had been passed in the service. The Admiralty had taken especial care to remove and alter those causes of complaint which made seamen unwilling to enter into the Navy. They found no disinclination now to en en at a lower rate of wages than they ob ttaerinetdheinNthaevy, even merchant service. Impressment had not occurred during the last ten years. With regard to the difficulty of ob taining pay, it was true there was no possibility of paying sea men on foreign stations ; but it ought to be remembered that he preferred takin g his pay in the whack when he came borne. lle had also the power of letting his relations re -1 cciye lialf his pay whilst he was abroo4. rile only inconye. nience was the want of pocket-money going on shore. He admitted that impressment should not be resorted to, unless there was no other means of manning a fleet. When press-war rants were issued, some sudden emergency required a large naval force, which could not be raised by any other means.— From the earliest period of our history, the practice of impress ing men had prevailed. The Hon. Member for Westminister had said it was not consistent with the principles of the Constitution to drag meri from their homes, but the Hon. Member should not forget that men were liable to be dragged out to serve in the mi litia. The only persons exempt were se a m en , b ecause t h e y were required in the fleet. The plan of a general RegiStry was tried in the reign of William 111., and abandoned, because it was found inefficient. It was necessary the Government should have the power to commence war, when the interest of com merce and the country required that step. Mr. WA RRE supported the motion. Press gangs had clone wrong many instances. A Naval Friend had told him that an unfortunate coachman, with his box-coat and whip was im pressed on one occasion, and .sent out to a foreign station.— The Hon. Member deprecated the manner in which an officer had been mentioned by a public writer in a calumnious article, entitled " Blue and Buff." Admiral HERVEY;id, he had taken part in many discus sions where the object was to get rid of impressment which he found impracticable. In all cases of sudden armament ; the only effectual mode of raising a navy was by impressment. ' Sir R. WILSON supported the motion. Mr. HUME replied, and the House divided— For the motion - 38 ,',gainst it 108 Majority against tile motion -—7 O CATHOLIC BOARD. Mr. BROWNLOW rose, pursuant to notice, to refer a Peti tion concerning the Roman Catholic AssOciation to the Com mittee on the state of Ireland. The Honourable Member stated that on a former evening he presented a Petition to the House respecting the Roman Catholic Board in Dublin., Several Hon. Members on this oc cas i on o bj ec t e d to hi s mode of pro ceeding, and chief among them was the Right Honourable Attorney-General for Ireland. He thought there was a serious ness in the affairs of Ireland which might have warranted less objection as to points of mere form. His object on the occa sion - to which he alluded, was to make known that this Ca tholic. Association had extended its influence over all parts of Ireland, and he had introduced the subject in the hope that after the notice of Parliament had been fairly called to it, an opportunity would be taken by the Executive Government to get rid of the grea t ev il. Th e pr i nc i p l es o f t h e . C onst i tut i on had been violated, and the public peace disturbed by inflam matory speeches addressed to deluded and prejudiced persons. He knew not what there was to recommend this Association to the protection of any Members of the House. He spoke in strong terms of the misconduct of the Catholic Association, describing it to have assumed the functions of Parliament, and to have taxed the people of Ireland. If that House were to pass resolutions to protect their privileges, by puffin , * down the Association, in his judgment Association, it would not overstep the exigency of, the case. By • the motion he-was about to make, he hoped the attention of the Irish Government would be drawn to the subject. He concluded by moving that the petition should be referred to the Irish Committee. Mr. H. 'MISS seconded the motion. In doing so, he dif fered in some points from his Hon. Friend the Member for Ar. maigh. He had always given his humble support to die Catholic claims, and he hoped he should not incur the suspicion o f having become lukewarm in their cause when he expressed a hope that the Catholic Association would dissolve itself; as if it continued its sittings the friends of the Catholics would be found rapidly to diminish. He considered that an honest friend to the Irish Catholics was bound to say that he disapproved of the Catholic Association on the one side, as he did of the Orange Associations against which they petitioned on the other. Mr. Secretary CANNING said, the House recollecting the part he had taken with respect to the Catholic question, would not consider it other than natural that he offered a few words in explanation of the reasons which induced him to vote for the present motion. He supported it in redemption of a pledge which he had given on a former evening, not for the purpose of exonerating the Irish Government or the Government gene rally, from responsibility, but because the Catholic Association had been represented in England to be one of the causes of the disturbed state of. Ireland. On this account he voted for the present motion, as he should for that which the Right Hon. Baronet opposite proposed to make respecting Orange Associations, without fettering himself by any pledge as to the course which he should subsequently pursue. He should now have said all that was necessary for him to say, if his Hon. Friend had not seemed to consider him pledged to give an opinion on the case of the Catholic Association. He hail given no pledge, and could only now repeat what he had said on a farmer night in declining to speak on this point. He did not think an Honourable Member had a right to call on a Minister of the Crown for a legal opinion in a case like this, where it was a question of great difficulty whether the la* had been infringed, or very nicely evaded. He would ad mit that it constituted a case to be watched, but he was not prepared to say, that if the law had been evaded, it would in the present state of things be prudent to come to Parliament for a new one, which might reach the Catholic Association. Whether that would eventually be necessary, was a matter of deep and serious consideration on which, at present, he would give no opinion. He was awake to the grave responsibility which at tached to the Government on this subject, but must say that at present they were not prepared to come to Parliament for a new law that might apply to the case. Ile advised, or rather hoped, that whatever there was of a mischievous character in the Asso ciation, would exhaust itself before it became necessary to in quire how nearly they approached a violation of the present law, or whether it would be desirable to frame a new one to meet the evil. Air. C. HUTCHINSON opposed the motion, and described the objCct of the meetings of the Catholic Association to be to make known in the language of freemen, though oppressed, the grievances of which they complained to the public and the Parliament. He could not consent, on any account, to refer this Petition to the Secret Committee. ' _ Sir J. NEWPORT thought, if thi s P e titi on were sent to t h e Committee, the Petitions from certain Parishes in the County of Westmeath, and the Freeholders in the County of Cavan, against Orange Associations, ought also to go before them at the same time. He then read a paper descriptive of the proceed ings of an Orange Association at the commencement of the present Session of Parliament affecting to assume all the func tions of that House, and establishing a system of delegation throughout Ireland, with Committee of Finance, &c. This meeting was attended by the Grand Treasurer and Deputy of Ireland, Sir A. Bradley King and Sir H. Lees. He proceeded to read some of their resolutions, on which he proposed to ground the motion he intended to make. Mr. H UTCHINSON explained. Mr. H. SUMNER thought to refer the Petition to a Com mittee would be only putting off the evil. In a case of such danger' he thought the House ought not to separate without first obtaining an opinion from the Law Officers of Ireland whether the present laws could reach the Catholic Association. In the event of their not doing so, a new law ought to be framed for the purpose of meeting the case. Mr. Secretary PEEL was in favour of the motion. He thought the petition ought to be referred to the Committee as a matter of course. Assenting to the motion for not referring the petition to the Committee, he should not consider himselt re lieved from any responsibility ; but when any act occurred which might render it necessary, he should consider it to be his duty to subject the Association to the steady march of the law. Tins he should do in every case where the law was infringed, whether the parties were Catholics or Orangemen. He avowed himself an enemy to all secret and affiliated Societies, and from his heart he wished the Orange Associations were at an end. The formation of such societies formed a precedent for the establishment of others whose principles were different. True leyalty might find other ways of shearin itself; and he believed the Government sufficiently powerful' to protect the loyal without the aid of such associations. He thought it would be premature now to give an opinion on the character of the Catholic Association. _ Mi. S. RICE spoke againit Associations, and announced it to be his intention to vote for the motion of the Hon. Gentle man, and also for that of the Right Hon. Baronet. Sir P. BLAKE called on the Hon. Member for Armagh to use his influence, as he had avowed . himself to be an Orange man, to put down Orange Associations. There was an appa rent change in the language of the members of that Association lately, but he doubted their sincerity, remembering the words of the Poet— " Convince a man against his will, " He's of the same opinion still." Mr. DAWSON thought it right to say, that he believed the imputations thrown out against the Orangemen of Ireland were unfounded and unjust. They wished their conduct to be in quired into, and he was confident that they would come out of any inquiry that might be instituted with honour. He should vote for the motion. _ The motion was agreed to. Sir J. NEWPORT then moved that the petitions respecting the Orange Societies should be referred to the same Committee. The motion was agreed to. The other Orders were disposed of, and the House adjourned at THitEE o'CLoc this morning. An Officer on half-pay is about to be tried at Bordeaux for the murder of his wife, whom he is said to have detected in an act of adultery.. A peasant lately digging under a great stone at Balla, near Archuis (Jutland), found a piece of th e fi nest gold of hi ounces weight, fashioned into the shape of a brace let, or ornament fur the leg or neck, PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. NOLJSE OF COMMONS. Jovis, 10 0 die Junii, 1824. MESSAGE FROM TIIE LORDS—That they have agreed to East India Company's Agreement Bill, Harwell Road Bill, and Haw Bridge Bill, without amendment; and to chester Gas Light Bill, and Newton Poor Rates Bill, with amendments. That they have passed a Bill, intituled, " A.l Act fur ther to continue an Act made in the third year of his pre sent Majesty's reign, for suppressing Insurrections, and pre venting disturbances of the public peace, in Ireland." Also, a Bill, intituled, "An A c t t o em p ower t h e Gover nors andi Corporation of Etwall Hospital and Repton Free School, in the County of Derby, to extend and increase the objects of that Charity, and to make sales, and for other purposes therein mentioned." • Also, a Bill, intituled, " An Act to empower Sir Charles' Morgan, Bart., with the licence of Sir Chas. Joshua Smith, Bart. or other the person or persons claiming under a scple ment made on his marriage with Dame Belinda his wife, late Belinda Colebrooke, spinster, to g-ant building leases of certain copyhold lands, held of the manor of Stepney, Mid dlesex," &c. Also, a Bill, intitnled, " An Act for efFecting -an exchange of the undivided moiety of certain estates in the pa r i s h of Audley, Stafford, settled by the will of C a th er i ne Toilet, and now in the possession of Lawrence Armitstead, Esq. for a certain other estate, in Cheshire," &c. ESTATES—Jellicorse's, and Smyth's--Bills read a third time, and passed. Tollett's, and Sir Charles Morgan's—Bills read , _ a first time. ETWALI. CITARIT t ES—Bill read a first time. INstrtutEcTroNs (Ireland)—Bill read a first time, to he read a second time on Monday, and to be printed. SMALL DE 'yrs (Scotland) ACT—Bill to alter and amend or dered to be brought in. ROADS—Blandfbrd and Poole—Bill read a third tims, and passed. Shepley Lane Head—Bill reported, to be ingrOssed,. BamEwELL—Lanark and Glasgow I NAVIGATION—Medway EQUITABLE LOAN SociETy—Dublin TUNNEL—Thames NEW STREET (Marylebone) Bills read a 3d t.tric. NEWFOUNDLAND JUDICATURE and passed. SAVING BANKS GRAND JURY PRESENTMENTS NEWFOUNDLAND 111 ARRIAGEB PITELIC CREDIT (Ireland) NEW CHURCHES Bills to be read a 3 6 EAST INDIA TRADE time this day. ButDas—Southwark —Report on Petition for Bill read, and another Bill ordered to Le brought in. NORFOLK AssrzEs—Petition of Justices of the Peace, that that the Lent Assizes may be held at Norwich instead of . Thetford ; and Petition of Inhabitants of Thetford, against the removal ; to lie on the table. INPIIESSMENT or SEAMEN—Pwitions of Merchants, &c. of London and King's Lynn, against, to lie on the table. BUTTER TRADE (Ireland)—Petition from Strabane, for the regulation thereof, to lie on the table. WAREHOUSING (Ireland)—Petition from Cork, against, to lie on the table. CORN LAWS—Petition of Bakers of Liverpool, to be allowed to take 21 Winchester bushels of Wheat out of Bond for every cwt. of Bread they export ; to lie on the table. ORDERS OF THE DAY FOR THIS DAY. 1. Demerara—Adjourned Debate on Address. 2. Butter Trade (Ireland) Bill—Committee. 3. Marine Insurance Bill—Report. 4. New Churches Bill—Third Reading. 5. Magistrates Indemnity (Ireland) Bill—Report. 6. Lancaster County Courts Bill—Report. 7. Superannuation Fund Bill—Committee. 11. Entailed Estates (Scotland) Bill—Further consideration of Report. 9. Warehousing (Ireland) Bill—Further Consideration of Report. 10. East India Trade Bill—Third Reading. 11. East India Possessions Bill—Second Reading. 12. Ecclesiastical Benefices Bill—Second Reading. • NOTICES OF MOTIONS FOR THIS DAY. 1. I,lr. Wodehouse—To refer Petition from the Magistrates of Norfolk, against holding the Lent Assizes at Thetford, to a Select Committee. 2. Mr. Martin (of Galway)—Bill to alter the Law of Arrests in certain cases. NOTICE GIVEN YESTERDAY. • Tuesday, June 15. Mr. Hume—Returns relating to Impressment of Seamen. ',• For LITERARY NOTICE, see the Fourth Pag ST. BARNABAS.—IbIiday at the Bank, Exchequer, East India and South Sea Houses. ARRIVED. 1 Holland FOREIGN MAILS. Due. 1 America HIGH WATER ♦T LONDON BRIDGE TO-MORROW- Morning, 40 minutex after 2. ( Evening, 2 minutes after D• THE SUN. SOLEM QUIS DICER& FALSU)I AVD114742 LONDON, FRIDAY, JUNE 11, 18'24. ROYAL EXCHANGE, HALF-PAST ONE. Both the Stock Markets are closed this day ; but a little business has been done on 'Change irr Mexican, 11 sellers ;Colombian 4 to 2, and Consols 95k. Nothing ha's been done in any other security! One Express has arrived from Paris, and is said to have brought the French Rentes at 102 f. 50c. In our front page we have given some extracts from the Paris Papers ; their contents are unim portant. The following is an extract from a private letter:— " PAnrs, JUNE B.—ln consequence of the Ministerial mis understandings, great changes are daily looked for in the Car of Ambassadors. It is already determined that M. de Cars' man shall be recalled from the Embassy of Vienna, and that his place will be supplied by 'the Viscount Lodoys de Marcel lus. The latter is forming at present his household at Paris: and if new combinations do not disturb the arrangements agreed on, he will repair to his post the end of the month." Dutch Papers to the 10th instant reached towl; last night. They contain nothing of interest; except the following statement, which whites to a meeting which is no longer possible : FRANKFORT, JUNE 4.—Besides the new Congres which has been already . announc:A, there will be conferences in this city betweeh Prince Metternich, M. de Tatischiff, and Vis count Chateaubriand. • AMSTERDAM, JUNE I.—Exch. on London, 39 8; Two ➢Months, 39 6. Ilaunburgh and Bremen Papers to the 4th, and Brussels Journals to the 9th inst. inclusive, have also arrived. The Emperor ALEXANDER'S intended tour to the Eastern Provinces of Russia has been postponed till August. The . " Danish Government has concluded a new loan of five millions and a half sterling. The Constitutional Committee of the Nor. wegian Diet is said to have decided against granting their Sovereign an absolute vao. The Session of the States-Gene ral of the Netherlands was closed on the sth instant, with a speech from the Minister of the Interior, in which he assured them, on the part of the King, that the important subject 0 1, the corn trade, on which they had addressed his Majr37l would be examined with all the attention which it so especial,' deserved. The subjoined Petition from a most respect able body of Merchants of London, praying for the recognition of the South American States, will doubtless receive all the consideration from .; 37 1•41 1 lity , "v ever e; loon „, 1 , 4 Y :•S °CCU Nit s c 'en( : 1 013 , 4 ' 4lll iner 1 4, _ tala ‘