The Sun. — London, England, 1824-06-25 00:00:00

PARLIAMENT, HOUSE OF LORDS, JUNE 24. ROYAL ASSENT. The Duke of MONTROST, the LORD CHANCELLOR, and Tail SIIAVI‘F.SIIURY, as his Majesty's Commissioners, brought down the Royal Assent to the following Bills : The New Churches Bill, the Snperanuation Allowances Bill, the Irish Insurrection Act Bill, the Great Sessions in Wales Bill, the Chelsea and Greenwich Hospitals Felony !till, the East India Possessions Bill, the Earl Marshal Authoriza lion Bill,' the Crown Debts in Ireland Recovery Bill, the Marine Insurance Bill, the Southwark Bridge Bill the Thames Tunnel Bill, and the Irish Mining Company Bill. The Marquis of LOTIIIAII took the oaths and his seat as Baron Kerr, by the death of his Father. Lord CAT HO RPE presented a petition from Colchester praying for the gradual Abolition of Slavery.—Laid on the table. Mr. Powr LI. presented an Account of the Receipt's and Dis bursements of Shoreham Harbour for the last year.—Laid on the table. SOUTH AMERICA. The Marquis of LANSDOWN, before the Order of the Day should be read, wished to take that opportunity of ad- dresaing a few words to their Lordships on a subject which would not take them by surprise, as it was one to which he had exiled their attention at an early period of the Session, he meant the State of the Relations between this Country and South America. After the sentiments which had been ex pressed, and the declaration made by his Majesty's Ministers on that occasion, lbw months had been allowed to elapse without one step being taken to establish those relations on the footing olewhichit was universally acknowledged that for the interest of all parties they ought to stand. He had, however, had the satisfaction at the time to see the principles and - opinions on which his motion was founded, adopted by his Majesty's Mi nisters. All he meant to impress upon them was, that in con sistency with their declaration made at that period, that no considerable time should elapse ere they shoold recognize the ndevendence of the South American States, if there was no opening on the part of Spain to do it herself, and that this country would consider herself freed from the engagement of keeping the initiative for Spain, they ought once more to con. -shier the importance of taking the last and decisive step equally called for by the opinions and honour of the country and the. interests and prosperity of trade. Recognition might be deemed a mere matter of form after all that had been done, hut all knew that the most important consequences were de rived from the peculiar modes in which things were carried into effect. There was nothing more important than that it -should be tattle impossible for any Court in this country to throw doubts on the recognition of the independence of those States which it must be the desire of every one to see firmly established. Without speaking of South Ame rica, there were two States, at least those of Colombia and Buenos Ayres, whose independence was as well esta blished as that of any State in Europe, and indeed better than that cf the country itself in behalf of whom delay in the recognition of the former bad been granted. It was his Arm conviction, that, at the present moment their independence might be properly recognised ; and it was his anxious hope, that previously to the next meeting of Parliament, in pursuance - to the declarations made by his Majesty's Government, such recognition would have taken full effect. Should this hope be disappointed, he should then exert himself, as far as it lay within his power, to insure the attainment of so desirable an object. The Earl of LIVERPOOL stated, that the conduct of his Majesty's Government, during the whole Session, had been perfectly plain, distinct, and explicit. When the Noble Mar quit had brought forward the motion to which he had alluded, he (the Earl of 'Liverpool), in explaining the course of policy , eirsned, had stated that three points were to be considered._ 'With respect to the first, whether there had been any engage ment between - this country anti other States, Spain excepted, which formed a bar to the consideration of the question, he had then declared, and he should now repeat, that this country was bouad by no engagement, expressed or implied, with any State in Europe, to delay the recognition of South American inde pendence ; that his Majesty's Ministers considered themselves complenAy free to exercise their own judgment according to eircumstances; and that whatever way their judgment Was exercised, the question was purely and solely a British ques tion. The second point related to the propriety of allowing Spain to take the first step in the recognition of her former colonies. All that had s'etce passed had confirmed him in the opinion, that as the recognition by the Mother Country was the only one de jerc, till it had been made, some degree of . inconvenience would always exist between that country and , other States. But this he had not represented as a bar to recognition, but only as a reason to make an effort, hopeless perhaps, but not the lees just on that account, to induce the Government to be the first to make that recognition. ire had now no difficulty to state that every effort to that ef!:ect having failed, his Majesty's Government did not con vdve itself precluded by any obligation, - moral or of any other nature, from recognizing the independence of the South American States, but felt itself as free both in policy and obli get],in of c i t y kind towards Spain, es it hail done in the former instance towards other States. The third and last point to which he had directed their bords!iip's attention at the time was toe face that Commissioners and Consuls had been sent io ageertain the state of those countries, and to form a j.udg -intent whether their Governments had acquired a degree of per manency which would ailbrd grounds for completing the recog nition of their independence. This was the only point on which the question now stood, and when he stated that that in formation had not yet been received in this country, he stated that which he trusted must satisfy the [louse that there hod been no unnecessary delay. lie repeated that this country was urder no obligation, direct or implied, to delay her recognition •of th , S th American States when it should appear consistent terests and cilaracter to :nake it. The question was .:;tely open question, and his Majesty's Government •o - t on the information which they should receive on its aro ; ,1 oi the manner most consonant with the welfare of the COo :7. He hoped that he had made the House perfectly nn de:.:.,:: what was the present state of the relations between this Gointry and South A:neriea. PROTEST AGAINSI"I'HE EARL MARSHAL'S BILL. - Lord HOLLAND, before proceeding to the motion for which he had given notice, was desirous that the minutes of Friday, the tdth, Saturday, the 19:1i, and Monday, the 21st of June, ! should be read. lie could not but express his satisfaction at seeing on the last day of the Session, previous to die proroga tion,-suc:i a state of the House. Ile was happy to have the good fOrtune of addressing so numerous an assembly of Peers. lie felt much satisfaction that the delicate of otter—for delicate lie could not but.coli it, which he was about to bring forward, would receive the .cooslderatioa of so full a lions". He felt satisfaction also, that if iiris recollection as to facts, that tie spoke in the presence of man:. I?._!:sons who • witnessed what had passzLl, and he was sure. whatever might be their opinieu with too:poet to toe hill, would acknowledge the correctness of his statements where they were correct, or set hits right if he should in any respect be to error. This he not only looked forward to ; he exoected that those who were present would bear 101 l evidence to the statement of facts 'he was shout to make:-, and upon which lie should call upon their Lord sliips to give their sanction to the resolution with which lie intended to conclude. But if their Lordships should .not agree to adopt his proposition, they would at least bear •- this in mind,—teat it was not impossible, even at the short est notice, to procure a numerous meeting of that House.- -Their Lordships had given a practical proof that at this very late period of the sesszon, a fait attendance of Peers could be obtained on 24 hours notice. Those persons, therefore, who had such a feverish apprehension on all subjects connected with this important Pill as it was called, must have had a full oppor tunity to att , ..id'they pleased. He then mo ve d that the mi o mites be read. [Here the minutes were read by the Clerk. After some :m•era across the table between. Lords Liver pool and Holland, it was a greed, that toe minutes of the first -two days should only be read,. in as far as they related to the Earl .%larshal's Bill, but those of Monday enure.]—His Lord ship also moved the reading of the following - . Pit OTEST. " DISSENTIF,!•7T.—Because, on general principles, I object to any concession to Roman Catholics, either collectively or in dhitlually ; and the Bill violates the Constitution, a Protestant by enabling a Papist to hold high office near the perso:i of are Kir. , and dispenses with those oaths which .Protestants.. with . v - bound to take. Because the practical effect of dispensing a . the oath of supremacy to Papists, must of necessity create constitutional jealousy on the part of the Protestants, thereby g - A - . erating feuds. and aniziosittcs, most especially at the prese n t tune, when Papists avow their intentions by language and acts 8 ° ',u , disti,uisett, that they cannot be inisunacrstood. `• Bec..tuse to sanc:ion the separation of the oaths of alle g;`:•-“_: and supremacy, is to establish a most dangerous and _ ala:m:i7:f preecient, in asmuch - as the union of cnurch and state, forms - the basis of our constitutional greatness and ex.ccl ,kncei freedom a n.l secur i ty. An d lastly, because at this very • latc period of the S'',tsion, and at the early hour of five o'clock, - i-,- . : - ;t - e Peers arrived at - t± , e House, the present decision cannot ••1 2 : ! . considered to be the sense oi: this House, many Peers being absent, a nd the House talten quite unaw a ies. For these rea sons, end having the welfare o...iny coqntry indelibly at heart, I st . ,l , f.nr ily protest aga,ti,: a Lonstrit c ourse of t this Lill, and ot ' aer measures o f a simi lar nature wh ich ar,.. (Signed) . . p-cwre6lion. " N EvroAsTLE. S " ABINGDON." Lord flO that he-bed no oc en , m ke lii.A ofresi f e t tr Z s re right teti th of .dissentiug• on to nia It was cer ;protestations tainly a strange circumstance that he, who, whether wrong or justly, had most abundantly used that right, should find himself called upon to make animadversions on a protest entered on their Lordships' Journals. He hoped he should prove that he held that privilege to be most invaluable and sacred. He com plained of the present dissent on two grounds :—First, that the fourth and last reason left a general impression with respect to the proceedings of the Ilouse exactly the reverse of what those proceedings should have . proiluced ; and secondly, be cause out of the origiral propositions which were not lass than sever., only one was fairly matter of judgment, and the other six included a potent misrepresentation of the proceedings of the House, or a potent want of recollection, and a direct reflection on the honour of the Ilouse, accompanied by a complete denial of the authority of that branch of the Legislature, tending to subvert all respect for the laws of the country. It was said, amongst other things, that very late in the Session the Bill had teen read a third time at the early hour of five o'clock, whilst Noble Peers were absent, and the House taken unawares,. What was likely to be the impres- • sion produced by this assertion on persons unacquainted, as posterity might be, with the hours at which the House trans- ; acted business ? Would they not imagine that something corn-I pletely new to the British Parliament had suddenly sprung up at the close of the Session ? That the House being taken by surprise had expressed no opinion upon the measure ? That it had been hurried through with indecent rapidity, and that no pains had been taken to draw attention to the subject ? Was not that the impression which would remain on the mind of e4'ery man who read the Protest ? But so far from this being the general complexion of the transaction, the Bill when in troduced had in substance and for object that which had been under the consideration of the House during the greater part of the Session. It had come recommended by individuals of high authority, and of various opinions on the merits of the Catholic Question. It had formed part of a Bill which had been rejected, it was true, but which had been rejected on other grounds, and it was the very part against which no objection whatever hail been urged, except one of form. ,The arguments of the Protect, and the most difficult part of the task which he had imposed upon himself was that of abstaining from remark ing on those arguments, applied more stronely to the Bill which had been proposed by the 'Noble Earl opposite (the Eacise Oaths Bill) and which had passed withontany opposition and become an Act of Parliament, than to that to which they immediately referred. It was even expected that the same Noble Earl would have proposed the latter ; but he had explained Inc conduct in not doing so, not by saying that he objected to such a measure, but by showing that the dignity of the Earl Marshal so difired from that of the individuals for whom he legislatured, that they could not be united in the same Bill, and also that there was an urgent necessity for the passing of the latter to enable the Hovern ment to go on with the important arrangements then in progress. —Could any man after this say, that the Ilouse bad been taken by surprise, and the measure not expected ? Not a day had passed since the period to which he had alluded, without some conversation taking place in the Ilouse 'n the propriety of in troducing such a Bill. A stroke of Providence had at last re duced the Earl Marshal to a situation in which he would soon be compelled to appoint a Deputy, and it was the sense of both Houses, that he ought to be relieved from such a situation.— Was it then fair to tell posterity that the House had been taken ' unawares? He should stand up for the privileges of the Majo rity thus far, that they must have the means of recording a court ' ter statement. The Noble Lard then referred to that part of the Protest which stated that the measure lied been proposed at a very late period of the Session. Late with reference to what ? To other Sessions and years ? Their Lordships' Journals would show that it was a week later last year when a Bill which was acknowledged to hove an unconstitutional object, the. Irish Insurrection Act, was introduced to that House and passed.— Year after year, Bills coercive of the liberty of the subject and enacting severe penalties had been brought in still later. Were they to be passed without opposition, on eccouut of their nature, and were those which obtained concessions, however small, to be alone resisted ? The next point related to the early hour of five o'clock. Now in these few words there were two propositions : first, that five o'clock was an early hour ; se condly, that the Bill had been read five o'clock. He disputed both. In the first place live o'clesk was the hour adopted by • their Lordships for proceeding to public business, out of courtesy and convenience to all parties. It was too much therefore that because what the regular practice of Parliament allowed to do had been done, that should be recorded on the Journals of the House as a crime. But he contended that it was later than five o'clock when the Bill had been read a third time. As far as his recollection went, as soon as the minute hand had reached the figure twelve, he had gone to the table, and took the Bill in his band. He then heard sonic person say " move, and go on," hut he answered, " no, let the Petitions be presented first." —Eight Petitions were then presented on different subjects, one by a Noble Friend near him, which oecasioned some con versation at the table. A Noble Duke, it friend and relation of his (the Duke of Richmond), had then presented live, and stated their heads another Noble Lord inA presented one, anti a Noble Earl had moved some returns, which had been ordered. It was not sill alt this had been done, which had taken seine time, that he (Lord li.) had risen. He certainly had not delayed the House by many observations, but he had moved that the Order lof the Day be read, - and afterwards that the Bill itself be read a third time; and in doing so he had spoken a few sentences, not to create a debate on a subject on which he believed all were agreed, lint enough to draw attention :o it. lie did not deny that he was anxious the Bill should pass at an early hour, because he wished that it might go tlwough one stage in the other House the same evening. The Protest said that the third reading had taken place before Peers had arrived ; but he contended that there was a considerable number of Peers in the House, and he declared on his honour that if any one of them had proposed to postpone the third reading to allow other Peera to arrive, he would have consented to it. He would not ' have been afraid in that case of too full an attendance, but rather of a loss of attendance, for at five o'clock the benches of the House were generally much better filled than at half-past six or seven. And if there were a wish to surprise the House, it might much more easily be done at a later than an early hour. This was proved by the practical experience of tkat very day, for a Bill had came up enacting the severest punish meats on the subjects of this country, on principles not to be found on the statute books. And yet that Bill, notwithstanding its importance, had been passed the very same night,, and when there were fewer Peers present than when the Earl Marshal's. Bill had been read a third time. The. Welch Judicature Bill had also passed late, and when there were only eleven Peers in the House, as a division had proved. He wished either of the Noble Lords who had sieeed the Protest, had divided the House, when the Earl Marshal's Bill had passed, alai he was sure that five or six times that number would have been found to be preseet. That Protest said that the decision In favour of the third reading was not the sense of the Ilouse. Let their Lordships look to time consequences of such doctrine, if it were allowed to question the sense of Parliament as ex pressed in its votes. What were the laws ? Were they not what contained the sense of Parliament, and if the manner in which they had hem passel was to be considered, would there not be an end of them. Would their Lordships have. the . Test Act tried that -way, the law which excluded thitholica from Parliament? Let them hear what an old Protestant historian (Ralph.) who lived 70 years after, and who having been brought up a Puritan had no prejudices in favour of Popery, said about the manner in which it had passed. He had said that the whole had been carried rather like a riot in a' mob than as by the Representatives of the people. Was not that act on that account the net of Parliament? Was it not to be considered as expressing their eense ? Sense or nonsense it was their vote, and the law of the land, and every Peer wl'io took his seat was also ahead to take the oaths which it imposed. The Protest said many Lords were absent ; but it was not on t'ais Bill alone that many Lords were ab sent : they were equally so on all Bills, and he had never known but one inset:. 'a of the absolute majority of Peers being present in that House. The whole number was, he believed, 3M ; and he did not recollect any division on whidi 176 bad been found present. The Noble Lord then shewed that their Lordships had been summoned on all the stages of the Bill, and might therefore have attended to oppose the third reading if they had pleased. Ile then shewed that there were two precedents, one in 1701, anti the otherinp, for ex punging Protests front the Journals of the Ilo use , on the ground, it was believed, that facts h ad been incorrectly stated, for one of them had been so effectually expunged, that no trace remained on the books or in the puhlications of the time. —But he did not propoee to follow that course. He would revert to a still older precedent, committed to posterity by , the pen of L or d Sh a f tes b ury . lie mearh the protest signed by that b l l o l b , le wi P li e c e h r , a f n o t r i a t l i l le til i e rs e t ro t i i ri n T e i . t men of the House, against that • the Peerage of this country, byi:eix.raileTien'gi(f).nroitihiel:beeirrtshrianghota. oath previous to the discharge of their functions—that bill which was licentiously ca ll e d t h e Bi s h op ' s T es t. The language of the protest was thought to deny the authority of Parliament, but it was left with its reasons on the Journals, to go down to pos terity. His last ransack should be with respect to that part of the present dissent, in which the Noble Lords who said the House had been taken by Bill, and measures of the same sort which were now in a course of pro.);ression." I _t would appear, therefore, that their Lord s'arPriss, protested " against this shis were taken unawares by things in a regular train of pro `—Ws hjr;:siup then moved a 'Resolution, minutely gression detailing the connn menceanent. and progress of the bill for dis pensing with the oath of supremacy to the Earl Marshal, from its itaroductien to the third reading on the 21st instant. Lord ABINGDON vies wy: in the habit of addressing their Lordships, but felt himself:called u upon to state the reasons which ss induced him to sign the dlent alluded to in the speech of the Noble Lord opposite (Lord !Tolland). The Bill at present no ,ticed he conceived to he periec . tivinconstitutional. _lie there fore looked into their Lordships journals to see if any protest to it had been entered, and finting one, he felt no hesitation in signing it—more particularly as we understood his Lordship,_ who was for the most part inaudible below the bar) that if three months longer had elapsed, lit should have had no opportunity of expressing an opinion on the measure. The Bill stated, that it was expedient that the Earl Marshal should be permitted to exer cise the duties of his office without subscribing to certain oaths, but he (Lord A.) thought tlios2 oaths necessary, anti that the oath of allegiance to his Majesty was not of itself, in the case of Ho man Catholics,a sufficient safeguard for the Constinition. The Noble Lord then proceeded to illostrate the foregoing opinion, but in so low 4 tone as to prevent us' from catching the exact import of his expressions. 'il understood him, however, to say, that h e f e lt no dislike to Roman Catholics personally, nor did he object to the Bill in question from Such motives. With the qualifications just enumerated, he was quite willing to agree to the motion of the Noble Lord. The Duke of NEWCASTLE was so unused to address their ' Lordships, th a t he trusted they would excuse him from follow ing the 'N o bl e B ar on opposite (Lord Holland) through the nu merona details embraced in his speech. Ho .should content himself with what he conceived to be a short statement of the facts of the case. He, however, had no objection to make to the temper in which the present motion had been introduced that nothing hurtful to his (the as he wasof.Newcastle's) acknowledget. g had been uttered by the Noble Lord. He also wished to say, that in no respect was he ini mical to the Noble Duke who held the office of Earl Marshal ; but on the contrary would rather render him a service than a disservice. The present Bill he considered a favour to the Roman Catholicsa and as such it met with his decided opposi tion. Under any circumstances be should have protested against it; and to the last hour of ,his life would continue in the same sentiment. With regard to the fourth reason assigned in the Dissent, he should assert that every thing alleged in the Protest was true. Ile never would subscribe to what he did not consider truth: As every other person, however, he was liable to error ; and though he would not admit that he had fallen into such in this instance, if the house conceived otherwise he was willing to abide by its decision. lie must at the same time affirm, that he thouehathe , liillirectuestion was passed with in deceot rapidity. On Friday last the first notice of it was given to the! louse, and on Sato May it was read a second time, its commit tal dispensed with, and read a third time and passed on Monday. He saw it was then five o'cioek , --it might perhaps have been five minutes after that hour, but he certainly thought the time un usually early for a Bill to be carried through the House. He knew it to be a fact that several Noble Lords were absent on that occasion because they were too late. If any thing he stated was erroneous he was cony for having fallen into the mistake ; and although he was reluctant to retract any opinion he had expressed, lie was willing to subscribe to the sense of the House. In conclusion, he was not prepared to differ from any part of the statement contained in the motion of the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Holland), and left himself entirely at the mercy of their Lordship's decision. Lord CLIFDEN said, that a, great deal had been said about the Pope, but for his part he thought there was as much dan ger of Jupi ter becoming again dominant. He was averse from all asperity of language in treating of the Roman Catholics and • their claims. The Marquis of LANSDOWN denied that it had ever been his intention to abandon the subject of the dispensation for the Earl Marshal. The Duke of RICHMOND said, that having been appealed to by the Noble Lord (Lord Holland), he rose merely to state that it was past five o'clock when he presented five petitions to the House on Monday last. The LORD CH NCE LLOR felt himself bound to say, that after a Bill passed that House, it must be taken to expr:ss the sense of the House generally, whatever might be thought of the measure out of doors. if it were supposed that the sense of the House was not correctly expressed, a means remained of determining that point (though not immediately), and a repeal of the Act might be moved at a subsequent period. Ire would also observe, that if a Bill passed at eleven o'clock in the morning, it was nevertheless to be taken as the sense of the House. With respect to the oath of supremacy, to which allusion had been made, he believed he was borne out by all his predecessors in saying, that it was substan tially contained in the oath of allegiance. The oath of su premacy in the case of Catholics Was only deemed necessary, as Lord Hale said, to unrivet the errors which crept in by means of Popery. As to the motion before the House, he had no objection to admit its allegations, he only wished it to con tain all the facts which had occurred. lie should therefore moved that after "Saturday" should be inserted, " a Bill read a first time on Friday"--aid subsequently, that it was read a third time, " the house passing over the Order of the Day for the Welch Judicature 13111." lie did not, however, wish to say, that all orders should be taken precisely as they stood on the Order Book of the House. But he was pretty eert,da that if, for . instance, the division on the Welch Judicature Dill had been taken eariier on the night referred to, the result, in stead or beim , e i g h, to three, would have been very differentl y collected. It U 95141: tily was not unnatural that Noble Lords seeing the rotatiin tie orders for discussion, should suppose that a particular one which stood last might not come on first, and. n'ria. Lord LAUDERDALE said, the House knew no rule by which the tirst or second order, or any other was to be peremp. torily disposed of. The LORD CHANCELLOR explained. Lord HOLLAND agreed in opinion with his Noble Friend who spoke last (Lord Lauderdale). After what had fallen from the Noble Duke oppogite (the Duke of Newcastle), he should add, as an amendment to his motion, what he thought would express the unanimous sense of the House—namely, that those who had signed the Dissent should subscribe only to such reasons, or parts of reasons in the present Motion as may appear to them to merit their approbation. The question was then put on Lord Ho'. LAND'S motion which was agreed to : aftz:r which, the House Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. MISCH. LLANI:OUS. The House was summoned in the usual way to hear the Royal Assent given by Commission to several Bills. Mr. HART DAVIS presented a petition from the Retail Brewers of Bristol, against certain provisions of the Beer MIL Laid on the table. Sir J. YORKE presented a Petition from Mr. Glennie, an Actuary, for some improvement in the law relating to Friendly Societies.—Laid on the table. Mr. HUME brought up the Report of the Committee on Piivate ilusincss, and made some observations on the imperfect accorm . dation provided for the reception of Private Com, mittees.—The Report . was then htid on the table. Sir J. NEWPORT •presented a Petition, signed by 2,5a6 Roman Catholics of the County of Waterford, praying for re laxation of the Laws of Disqualification which effect their body. The Petition was couched in temperate but forcible language. They stated, that there was no hope of pacification for Ireland, unless a complete abolition of .distinction was effected.—The Petition was laid on the table. Mr. C. PELFIAM presented a Petition from Whitchureh, . against Negro Slavery.—Laid on the table. ' ' 11ISII CURRENCY. Sir H. PARNELL said Aliat,_ he was anxious to know from the Right lion. Gentleman opposite, if it was intended to take any steps towards assimilating the currencies of Great Britain and Ireland: • . Mr. WALLACE said, that every hour he considered the subject he was morn convinced of the importance of it ; and he hoped to be able, in . an early stage of the next Session, to bring in a bill for assimilat'lng the currencies of the two coon tries.—(llear !) . Trus.4.cmPQRATIONS. Mr. BROUGHAM. said that, intending in the next Session • to bring in a bill respecting Irish Corporations, he wished to move for the production, of certain returns calculated to throw light en the subject. He then moved for certain returns. Mr. GOULBURN said he was not disposed to acquiesce: in the motion-to the extent mentioned- by the Hon. Gentleman. After a few words from Sir-J. NEWPORT, Mr. GRATTAN, and Mr. ARERCROMRY, the motion was negatived without a division. PETITION FROM THE DEBTORS IN THE SURREY, I yr bore i le o o l :I f I ltheO Gaol against certain GAOL, AND CASE (IF' CA PT. O'CALLAGHAN. C D S Ato7s id in i the ll regulations which iethie-osseurtroepyresent a Petition from imposed upon tliem many grievousrestrictions. These renrictions and limitations were contained in the Gaol Act, the 4th of Geo. IV. c. 64, w hi c h gave some rules, but in so undefined a manner that it became the dut y of the House to guard against ;b e abuses which might be practised by the unpaid Magistracy under colou r of it, BY the 12th and 14th sections . the Justices of the Peace were entiticd to. lay down such rules as to them might seem meet. There was no saying to what ex tent this power might be carried. If they prescribed one ounce of bread and a glass of water to the debtors, he saw no objec tions which could be made to it under that Act. As to the Surrey Magistrates, against whom. the complaint was made, he begged to say that he heard nothing which could derogate from the high respectability of those Gentlemen who composed the Bench; and he was sure that his Hon. Friend below him (Mr. Denison) and the Chairman,. w ith whom he (Mr. H o bh ouse ) had the honour of b e i ng acqua inted, were incapable of perpe trating injustice; yet after the treatment which Captain O'Cal laghan had received from the Bench—(Hear, hear!)—he was induced to look with suspicion on every thing which they did. The petitioners complained dial one hour only was allowed them for providing food and other necessaries; and that on Sunday the period was limited to half an hour. Their friends might reside at a distance, and if they did not arrive at the gaol between eleven and twelve o'clock, the time fixed, they must be obliged to wait twenty.four hours, till they could obtain an interview with them. The Act of Parliment said, that " food should be introduced into the prison at pro per hours ;" but the regulations of Ilorsemonger-lane gave only one hour. The Act provided that the restrictions and limitations, as to food and mccesStaries, shotild be so fixed as to prevent expellee, profusion, and extravagance. Look to the re gulations ; nothing except bread and water is allowed ; and on inquiry, he found that the cruelty bore so excessively on those who were subject to it, that die gaoler himself departed from the regulations. To allow the prisoners to purchase whatever food they chose was certainly more consistent with the spirit of the English law, than to fix the - quantity and the quality of it.— (ilear ! )—There was actually no cookshop, no huckster, no per son who sold b titling, within the limits of the prison ; and if a prisoner wished bread and chee s e, he could n o t ge t it. H e h a d heard that a girl, who hod gone to see her mother in the gaol, with a bun under.her arm, was sent back, lest she should give it to her and relieve her hunger.—(Cries of hear, hear !)--The petitioners complained of another regulation, which'allowed no visitor to attend them till after five o'clock in the evenhig • the consequence of' which was, that petty tr a desmeo ' who could not leave their business till a ft er th a t ti me , ant i th e lawyers, whose occupation did not permit them to conic abroad till a late hour, could not get access to the debtors for friendly intercourse or business. In the King's Bench. in the Fleet, and in the Mar ehalsea, there were no such regulations. In the summer season the prison was shut up at six o'clock in the evening, so that the petitioners were prevented .from walking in the evening in the purlieue of the prison, in order to obtain healthful exercise. Who were these who were subject to this great and monstrous description of punishment ? They were debtors—persons who were accused of no crime, and who demanded all kindness and humanity. Under there circumstances the petitioners prayed the Ilouse to amend the Gaol Act. He hoped something would be done to remedy their grievances, and to abridge the dis cretionary power of the Magistrates. He did not mean to say that they wilfully abused their powers ; but sonic of them had given rise to abuses to cautious and over-prudent conduct.—(llere Mr. Secretary Peel entered the House.)—He was glad to see the Right lion. Secretary in his place; he wished to have seen hint there when he presented the petition. The debtors asked the Right Hon. Gentleman to take into his serious considera tion the necessity of interfering With prison regulations. Ile (Mr. H.) did not know how the law stood; but he understood that the Magistrates had divested themselves of the power of doing this. In the ease of Copt. O'Callaghan, the Magistrates had referred him to the Visiting .lustices ; and yet these 3 ustices had no power granted to them by the Quarter Sessions. The evil cried loudly tier a remedy. Suppose a person was put into the gaol at twelve o'clock in the forenoon, by the regulations he could receive no food till eleven o'clock the next day..—( Hear !) so that he must fast 23 hours. The only relief he could obtain was by taking the gaol allowance, which was eighteen ounces of bread and water ; but even this pittance could not be got till nine o'clock; thus placing the unfortunate prisoner in a dilemma whether he was to that 21 or 23 hours, unless indeed his fellow prisoners shared their scanty allowance with Min. The Hon. Gent. concluded with moving that the petition be brought up. Mr. DENISON said that he agreed in many parts of the speech of his Hon. Friend. He disliked the existing Gaol Act, and he hoped that they would recur to the old system, which was infinitely preferable to the new. (Hear !) While he thanked his Hon. Friend for the compliment he had passed upon him, he (Mr. D.) could not receive it at die expense of his brother Magistrates ; for though undoubtedly they, like their fellow men, were liable to fhll into error, yet he could say with truth that no Magistrates felt it sincerer desire to do their duty, • and to promote the welfare of their country.—(Hear!)— lie thought the petitioners had directed their battery against the wrong quarter; it was not the Visiting Magistrates who were to blame; the fault was in the law of the land. One of the regulations provided that no spirituous or fermented liquors were to be allowed without the consent of the surgeon ; anti another gave the option to the individual to take the gaol allowance or to provide his own food. There was certainly a wide distinction between a prisoner and a debtor. Debtors ought to be treated with leindness and humanity; security of the person and not punishment was •the cause of their confinement. He admitted that there were two regulations which were very objectionable. The first was the limitation of the time for bringing in food; and the other the two great restrictions upon the intercourse of the debtors with their friends. At present the doors are thrown open at nine in the morning and arc closed at three in the winter season, and in summer they continued open till five o'clock.— Now he thought that the tune ought to be extended till four in winter, and to six or seven in summer, or, at least to a reasonable time. But as this matter would undergo a discussion before the Magistrates to-morrote morning, he would not allude farther to it at this time. As to the case of O'Callaghan he had neither read . the trial, nor did he know the particulars. lie had heard a re port of it from an Hon. Friend who was a - Member of the House; and on the Monday after the conviction he went to Horsenion ger-lane, and told the jailor that there must be sonic mistake about the restrictions which had been imposed upon that Gentle man ; and lie (Mr. D) requested that food, a newspaper, 84c. should be afforded to him ; and he referred to the surgeon 9.3 to the use of spirituous liquors. To his Noble Friend who pre sided on the Bench, the country was deeply . indebted; and no one could tax him with harshness or inhumanity.—(Hear, hear !)—His Noble Friend had no idea of that individual being treated in such a manner; and in a letter which he (Mr. Do had from him yesterday morning, he lamented the circumstance. I Although the Surrey Illagistrates could not be charged with an abuse of their powers, he thought it qudstionable whether they ought to sit in the House ; that is to say, both to make and to execute the laws. Ile merely threw out this hint ; but he hoped the Secretary of State would allow his merciful feelings to speak for Mr. O'Callaghan, and procure the remainder of his sentence to be abridged. He thought that the influence of the gross in sult which had been put upon that gentleman, and a conviction of his innocence, had prevented him from bringing his case ' before the Court of King's Bench, where he would have re ceived every indulgence ; but as the case came before the Sur rey Sessions, the Magistrates were bound up, and had no re medy but to send Mr. O'Callaghan to the county gaol, a place which was not at all suited for the purpose. Ile wished to see the old system restored, for little could be hoped for under the existing Act, .which tended to harden and sour the prisoner's mind._(Hear !) Mr. MA BERTA' said, the Quarter Sessions delegated the power to the visiting Magistrates. These Magistrates were accountable for their acts, and blame should not be thrown in discriminately on the Magistrates of the county, many of whom were not aware of the existence of their objectionable re gulations. Mr. Secretary PEEL said he regretted the Hon. Member for Westminster had reason to complain of his absence. Had he the least hint of the Hon. Gentleman's intention to present the Peti tion, he would have made a point of attending; but the House would not attribute neglect to him, as it knew public men had - several duties to reconcile. It sometimes happened that answers were required respecting capital punishments, and he had to wait till near post time for the decision. He regretted that he had not heard the Petition, but he believed that he un derstood its nature, and that it was a complaint from the debtors confined in - Horsemonger-lange Gaol. Before the Gentleman (Mr. Denison) complained of the law, he recommended him to look at the old law, and lie would find that one was a mere compilation of the other, and included no severities not existent under the old law. He (Mr. Peel) apprehended that he had no power to interfere in the penal case, and he felt the less interference he made with the Magistrates of the County the better, and the more consistent it would be with his duty and theirs. Every precaution was taken by the Act to guard against improper regulations, as none could go into ope ration until sanction e d by the Judge of Assize. If any thing harsh occurred on the part of these Gentlemen, lie was con vinced they would be ready to listen to proper suggestions, Ile could say nothing more than express his conviction, that every thing would be done by a body of Gentlemen like the Magis trates of Surrey which could be done. With respect to the case of Mr. O'Callaghan, it was not long since it was brought under his consideration. When it was, he immediately had an interview with Lord Eastnor, and he confessed he was satis fied on the propriety of the conviction. Mr. O'Callaghan was tried according to the law of his country. He was brought before a Jury and a verdict ofguilty returned against him, and the Magistrates on that verdict decided his sentence. He (Mr. P.) took care in his interview with LOrd Eastnor to en quire if the Magistrates, in considering the sentence, took into account the recommendation of the Jury. The answer was in the affirmative. Under all these circumstances, he did not think the sentence was severe or that Mr. O'CalLoglian should be recommended to mercy. There was also a complaint of that Gentleman's treatment in the prison, but he sent for the gaoler, and all those complaints were redressed. Mr. O'Callaghan was allowed a newspaper, to supply himself with provisions, and to see his friends. On the general question, as the regula tions of the gaol were to be submitted 'for revision to the proper quarter by the Hon. Member for Surrey, he (Mr. P.) saw no reason to interfere. Sir NI , DE CRESPIGNY said the whole power was in the hands of the Quarter Sessions. Mr. J. GRATTAN complained of the extension of the Gaol Act to Ireland. Sir R. WILSON thought the Right lion. Secretary should have asked Lord Eastnor if the Court took into account the severity of Mr. O'Callaghan's treatment for six days. Lord EASTNOR said he would defer any observations on the subject, as he was not. in the House when the Petition was read, until a Petition from Mr. O'Callaghan, which he under stood was in the bands of an Hon. i%le►nber, was laid before the House. It was only within the last three hours he had any no tice in the. country of the Petition being to be presented that evening. Sir F. BJRDETT was convincTd that his Hon, Friend (Mr. Hobhouse) did not mean to accuse the Right Hon. Secretary of neglect, in not being in the House when the Petition was first noticed ;.he merely offered an explanation why he brouglet forward the petition in the absence of the Right Honourable Gentleman. He was glad to find the Hon. Member for Surrey determined to bring the subject before the Magistrates of the county ; and he had no doubt, from that Gentleman's well. known humanity, that every thing necessary would be done.— lie could not help saying that a great share of the fault was in the l:tw, and alteratiohs simalti be made in it. lie regretted that a law should exist, by which a debtor was shut up in a so litary cell, and treated as a vagrant and a disgrace to society. Ile cared not for the corporal punishment—but the mental pain given to a man of feeling was fir more severe; and he declared that he would rather be hanged than tarifa as this gentleman appears to have, and be placed, like him, within the bars of a prison. He wished that the House would go back to old principles, and take away from the Magistrates the power of regulating the care of prisoners, and replace it in the bends of the recognised constitutional officer, the High -Sheriff of the county.—(Cheers.) Mr. HOBHOUSE . requested one word of explanation'. - He was sure Lord Eastnor would not be a party to any cruelty.— He was not one of the visiting Magistrates, and therefore not accountable for their acts. With respect to what had fallen from the iloaourable Member for Surrey (Mr. Denison), theueli in word he disagreed, yet in tact he admitted the whole case of privations and injurious regulations. He set eut with three points and in them all the Honourable Gentleman concurred. Ile trusted that the new-fangled system would be done away with, and the old system returaed. He would almost, rather than its continuance, that they went back a cen tury, and huddled men between four walls, without regard to vice or contagion. With respect to the case of Mr. O'Cal leghan, there was a case perfectly similar, to which he would allude without any intention of giving ofilence. A Gentle man (brother of Mr. Secretary Peel), was found guilty of an assault in shaking his whip at a person who offered-el Ladies under his protees,on—he was sentenced to a month's inipr:,en meat in the flip g's Bench. He (Mr. Hobliotore) had s ee n -e e e place where the Honourable Gentleman was coeiined—i a had friends every day to dine with him, and spent his thee agreeably. The Gentleman was a relation of the Rieio Honourable Secretary. Here he begged egein to aptilegise for saying so, as he did not mean to give effence. Ile ho noured the Gentleman for what he 'did, and he (Mr. Pub house) would have acted precisely in the same manner, though he suffer-cal a year's confinement for it. lie was the brother of the Right Ilonoureble Gentleman, and he passed his time in a good - room well furnished, where his friends might dine with 'him every day. Ills punishment was merely no minal ; but Mr. O'Callaghan was thrown twelve hours out of the twenty-four into a solitary cell, with brad and water only. This was, a disgrace greater than any corporal punishment, as his Hon. Friend had well observed. lie had seen Mr. O'Cal laghan, and he believed him to be a most respectable and ho nourable man. He must say he never knew a harder sentence, or one made so much more severe by the mode in which it was put into execution. There was a case in the Court of King's Bench a few days since for an assault, and the Chief .Justice Best instrusted the Jury to find only a farthing damages. As Mr. O'Callaghan had received a greater punishment than he was sentenced to, he thought there was a good case made out for a remission of the remainder of his punishment. Mr. Secretary PEEI4 assured the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hobhouse), that lie took no offence at the allusion to , his brother's case. When his attention was called to Mr. O'Calla ghan's business, lie naturally asked himself what punishment the Court of King's Bench would have probably inflicted, and his brother's immediately suggested itself. He, besides an. im prisonment of one month, was fined 5001. and - obliged to enter into recognizances to keep the peace for five years, in 3000/. The Magistrates of Surrey acted with perfect fairness to Mr. O'Callaghan, and as to his treatment in prison, he was treated as every person was who was found guilty of a misdemennour. The law cannot take into account whether the prisoner was a ' gentleman or not. No Act of Parliament said, be it enacted, because A. B. is a Gentleman. The law placed a certain power in the hands of the visiting Magistrates who were ac countable for their acts. Whatever causes of complaint there might have been, tleey were now removed, anti as to the Re ' commodation in different gaols, he must be excused from en tering into a discussion about them. Mr. DENISON again repeated that part of the gaol disci pline which he thought required correction, but at the same time he felt himself called upon to state, that he believed there was not in the country a body of gentlemen who endeavoured to execute their duties more strictly or more honourably than the Magistrates of the county of Surrey. It was true that they might have committed some errors, but who were not I liable to err ? perhaps the lion. Member for Westminster was free from this frailty ; if so, he must be very fortunate, but let not hint, who, in the execution of his duty, may be liable to blame, throw the first stone. If the Prison Discipline Bill was struck off she 6tatuta Book, he thought the . prisoners would bemuch sore otr, and subject to more restrictions. The Petition way. then icad, laid on the table, and ordered be printed. _ 311.. ABERCRO3IBY then presented a Petition from the individual whose name had been mentiomed in the discussion of the last Petition, The case, he said, had excited some atten tion in consequence of the nature of the effence, the recom mendation to mercy by the Jury, and the severity of the pu nishment. These circumstances alone had caused great public interest. The Petition stated the circumstances already pub lished, and the Hon. Member then proceeded to observe upon the treatment which the Petitioner had experienced for a whole week. He wished to know whether the Magistrates would really have passed such a sentence if they believed the indi vidual would have experienced such treatment. He thought the case particularly called for mercy, though the Petitioner rather wished for an inquiry into the general practice. Lord EASTNOR, as Chairman of the Quarter Sessions which had tried the petitioner, said he had no knowledge of either of the parties to the trial ;, that • the Court had duly attended to all the circumstances, and thought it their duty to mark their opinion of the assault. The provocation, about which so much had been said, was not of a kind to justify such an outrage ; and the provocation alleged by the prisoner's Counsel had not only net been proved, but had been actually contradicted by his own evidence. 3IABERLY thought the discipline imposed on the pe titioner had been unnecessary; and that the Magistrates ought, therelOre, to recommend him to mercy. The petition was then read, and after a few words from Lord EASTNOR, Mr. DENISON', and Mr. ABEItCROMIIT, was ordered to lie on the table, and be printed. EDUCATION IN IRELAND. Mr. Secretary PEEL brought up several ?apers relative to Education in lreland.—Ordered to be printed. INSURRECTION ACT. Mr. C. nuTcHINSON rose to move that the evidence taken before the Committee on the Insurrection Ac., be laid before the House. The Committee was not a secret, but only, a select Committee, and the evidence was therefore already known to many Members. It was however to be desired that no garbled statement of this evid.:ree should go before the public. Lie believed too that many Members of the Committee had under stood that the evidence would be laid before the House. The evidence taken before the Police Committee had been allowed to be published, even before it was complete ; and the same had been done in several other cases. The Report of the pre sent Committee did not contain the whole of the evidence taken before them, but only so much as went to support a re-enact ment of the law. He did not see what objections there could be to the production of this evidence. The witnesses were all respectable, and not likely to give evidence which they would wish to have concealed. It was publicity alone which would give any chance to the people of Ireland to obtain any retirees for the oppresion under which they now suf fered. Ile supposed the Committee had gone into all the great questions affecting the state of Ireland, including Tithes and Emancipation. All, however, that they lied produced as the fruit of their labours, was the Insurrection Act: He had no doubt the evidence would afford much useful information relative to the state of Ireland, particularly as to that of the labouring poor; and next Session the House week come to the subject fully prepared with all its details. Ire really be lieved, that if the distresses which prevailed in i r,-;and were to, take place in Yorkshire, Lancashire, or an other county of • England, all the force of the empire would not be sufficient to keen the people quiet. He concluded by moving that there be laid before the House a copy of the whole of the evidence taken before the Committee appointed to enquire into the dis turbed districts of Ireland. Mr. GRA'rTAN seconded the motion. Lord PA I.3IERSTON opposed the motion. He denied that the Committee had any wish to withhold from the House anY part of the material evidence. Two Members of the Commit.' tee had been nominated to select the evidence applicable to the Act, whether for or against it, and these Members were chosen • from different sides of the House. The Committee had dis tinctly stated that they had gone into a wide range of inquiry, which they could not possibly go through this Session. They added a wish_ for their appointment next Session, in order to go through the subject. The evidence, therefore, as it now stood, would indeed be a partial statement, to which the 1 - 10 r. Member had very properly so much objection. The Commit tee had no desire for concealment or mystery ; they had given the utmost latitude for examination and inquiry, and when their labours were completed, they would report the whole of the evidence they had taken. . Mr. JOHN SMITH supported the motion, believing that the publication of the evidence would be beneficial. Sir JOHN NEWPORT, as a Member of the Committee , declared the impression on his mind to be that it was intended to publish the evidence. He thought more dissatisfaction would be caused by the suppression than there possibly could e.