The Sun. — London, England, 1820-07-18 00:00:00

7,QUE% e prOVie ed it " re-col3l'. •ow• hips . i l ia BO V, Private\ i er-and a irdaP mittee on at soul :id in I ' l4- 3C ClZlltrt. leral !Ye!, to cre si. Ise la •« • :onsent tO, : l e vote 01 th e COO the ne %t4 , Is e to thu and the calling namely? King t° matte r any one Minn 00 lurpri2e' racy, he Loin a so , end, th ° iven the it was iQ loan under the santtion oT the King-,if this were ' l l l Pnoseds, in his opinion, it 'was a: little extraor utlnarsr, now that Monarch wa s gon e t o his gra ve, "that the use of that' "plate should be taken: away gajesty. Iu his humble Opinion to sup:. PPse that such was the intention of the late King, w as to suppose that which wasiot very reSisectfill to his memory. If, - however, there had been any 'condition that the Qtreen, going abroad should fOrr • .eit the grant, surely; in common sense, Minis ti.teS had • no right to treat the accused " 'as a con , Mned person they had no right to deprive the_ tr i c --;en of the privileges o f h er hi g h rank, an d * Yen to withhold from her the means of living wit h decency as a private Lady. God have mercy 11 11,_ the mind ghat could advise having recourse to I Enril measures ; the effett of which'maist be to dtsast the people from one end of the antrY to the other. The cry of the Public was If be guilty, proceed against her openly, f a s t, S OY, and according' to the laws ; but God lcl that she should be irritated by acts like v t'iose of which he now complained." There was more consideration which, however, he was 714ctant to throw out. When the Queen was e 11 : 4 % here as Princess of Wales she was aftmme therefore and it might be contended that she was uerefor e incapable of holding property in her owa right. He, however, would not for a mo suPpose th a t th e Ki ng, separa t e d as h e h a d had th e ." l f ar so many y ears f r o m h er Majesty, would 4n, b• of availing himself of such a plea. He mention e d th at this might be urged merely t h at it he die i n s il ence. H e. wou ld n ow a s k th e ~e c ircumstancesif, und er a ll the circumstances of the fol Wises e was not justified in requiring on behalf n er Majesty their aid and assistance ? If it were .atr?ssible that he could obtain the unbiassed opi d ° IL of the Noble Lord on this question, confi int he was that, from the litgh character of that oble Lord, he might rest assured that he would :S t a re against every thing calculated unneces xf aril to irritate and wound the feelings of her lea lesty. He should be very well content to Nohei he question to be decided upon by the e Lord. for I ••Ile was satisfied that he, acting stomTliselfs would not hesitate to order the re that it of th e property.- He did, not know 1, 71. it was necessary for him to press this subject tha t ,9 1 1 the House. It could not be expected he should go into the minutice of her -- k ars Household. A t presen t s h e h a d no ar ti c l e sh-eir co mmand that was not hired, and the ablo'e of her esta b l i shment was utter l y unsuit a eto her hi g h rank. He hope d t h at Mi n i s t ers t , h e e House wou ld give him credit for speak truthtn without exaggeration, and he hoped sit e Noble Lo r d would save h i m f rom t h e neces - RY of pressing the subject more strongly on the " se- He hoped he should not be met by any tr gilrne c nt to spew that the plate belonged to the r° " in a strict rig ht, and therefore it was with d el- Such a state ment would not be satisfac tory /4 Juke Wished. rather to hear that the circum- Itl o nß -es , of the case had been misrepresented or misunderstood in the first instance, and that now or' r° P er explanation having been received, an older would be immediately issued to restore e h il „ late in question. This was the course which - Ted to see taken, and sure he was, that this tee): th a t wh ,_, ion would be most grateful to the co u L a n t ' s °` the majority of the House and of the ah ere r Y h at He concluded iv moving that alloffi s °uld be laid before the House, copies of orderedciail, Papers relative to a service of plate P r i g "Y 'the late King to be presented to the Righeness of Wales in 1808, and used by her Royal from tagi a „ d ss . ll P to the time of her departure in 181 4. l unrd C he s l im , As nufteamt,regretted very much that t h e cud have been absent on Saturday when bat ear ned Gentleman first made this motion ; Iph. still h mor e did he lament both the mode in tott ic it had been brought forward, and the fit t rse which the Learned Gentleman had thought tee: d Pt in his absence. He certainly 'had tiera lved a letter from the Queen's Solicitor-Ge istot. "IntnlllllCating the intention to bring this It ten r il ," ; but h e wou ld l eave it t o th e judg tom' n l the . Rouse to decide whether it. was cus withary t cp s ubmit such a motion to Parliament, whet s previously exhausted every other fo l d means o f o b ta i n i ng th e o bj ec t i n v iew, the desire d such a course wa s likely to produce pat e esired e ffect.—(Hear.)—He would not im laearhanT effect.--(Hear.)—He t o th e Ilonourable and f op ;t' Gentl eman, who ha d g i ven hi m cre dit th4ntertaining proper feelings and sentiments to - su bject, and to whom he was disposed tend slh p z er the • same justice ; but, with every a tt r t ,inn to view the Learned Gentleman's tetiticuc.. fairly and liberally, he was unable to deau,„ e it to the standard of fair Parliamentary - 'l5 and h entl em ., , e was sure that in the Learned krt. ,„``,n s place he should have acted a different Pri em 'Re question was asked his Right Hon. turd a (the Chan ce ll or o f t h e E xc h equer ) on Sas toesls'whetherlie (Lord Castlereagh) was likely that I T, the House that day ; but he did not know to s ,, i f 'tight Hon. F r i en d h a d b een asked if he Lean; had any k nowle d ge on t h e su bj ect. Th e Ge ntlemanPeculi a was no led doubt placed in a to act r situation, in which he must be supposed (Lo r d ll ,l, lc ler the directions of others, although he when h'astlereagh) did not know of whom. But th e L e heard the acrimony of remark in which inns earne d Gentleman had also indulged, he t s a - if his ob' t hat he could not have acted otherwise -of th Pet had been to aggraVate the feelings 'wor st e Pen Ple—(hear !)—and to stimulate the Part of .Colltentthepopulace to expressions of n dis ,whieh an d to rep ea t th ose ac t s o f outrage. of I • 'he had • 'bless and n ti le h i mself been an eye-wt r • co urse of which even the palace of the Sove been i se'sll had .had nsulted.—lf the Learne d Gent. even used th e dilio'ence which became him as a4 .aci inad e " Ca te, he could no t h ave come d ow n and .of the a speech 40 remark a bl e f or gross i gn orance v; ith ject --(hear hear !)—and so pregnant jest calc ulatedfirebrands out -o f th at to act as eHouse.--.-(Hear, hear !)—He thought, .11 refore, it was not toomuch hi msel , t o say, that when • I wa s not in the llouse, the Learned 11714tieman should have ascertained of his Right Ourable Friend whether he could give him any information on the subject before he made his motion ; andthat he should not have Made any obserVations or Ott any qaestiOni on the sub= ject of these papers, till a Munster was present who could answer them.. Having said thus mnch—and hoped he had not expi'essed him= self more strongly - than 'the nature of the case required—be came nO# to consider the Ciretiml stance on account of which the House were to have their feelings tortured ) and the public mind was to be ~ekcited, by statements apparently made fat 'the purpose of carrying up that system of inflaming the passions of the people, which seemed to be so steadily acted upon.—(Hear!) - 7 -- He should state to the House what he knew of this transaction; and in doing so, he could _assure the Learned Gentleman that he was not actuated by any desire to avoid the responsibility which he might be thought to have incurred. About three weeks ago (and it was not an unimportant feature of the case that it was of three- weeks' standing, notwithstanding the pressing haste which prevented the Learned Gentleinan from waiting two days), before the question took an official shape, a communication was received by his Noble Friend (Lord Liverpool) from the Lord Chamberlain; stating that. her Majesty had applied for the restoration of this plate. Lord Liverpool said, in answer, that it was not in tended to refuse the Queen either a proper resi dence, or furniture becoming her station.;' - and that when a place of residence was fixed on, the question of plate and furniture would be consi- . dered at the same time.. He was sure the sense of the' House and of the country would bear him out when he said, that if, on the Queen's arrival in this country) she had conducted herself with that feeling which became her situation and her sex, there was no person who would not have wished her to receive every thing that could conduce to her comfort and convenience under her* present situation. But when she could have recourse to the advice of those whose object seemed to be to instigate the basest of the popu lace to insult their Sovereign—(Hear !)—as he (Lord Castlereagh) had himself had the misfor tune of witnessing, he should not shrink from the responsibility of advising the King not to become the dupe of such arts.—(Hear!) —But when the question was taken up in this light, and the Learned Gentleman came down to the House to make a garbled statement=which he believed the Learned Gentleman would not have made had he not been misled—Lhe felt it to be his duty, and he thought the House would think it was its duty, not to enter into every quarrel which might be raised by a discontented member of the Royal Family; for if the House were disposed to entertain these questions, they would have an -ample harvest of such discussions.--(Hear !)--The Learned Gent. had described this plate as a pre sent to the Queen from his late Majesty; an d a great attempt had now been made, as on other ocba sions, to embark the character of the late vene rable Monarch in the question at issue, and to make him an authority for bearing down the pro ceedings now pending before Parliament. The House, he trusted, would guard against this at tempt ; for if Hon. - Gentlemen thought it their duty to assert -on the one side, it would be the duty oP Ministers to make assertions on the other. It would be well to reflect on the situation in which they would be placed, if called upon to investigate the disputes of the Royal Family with nothing but assertions. He had now to inform the House that the greatest' part of this service of plate was old plate belong ing to King William which had been converted to the Queen's use ; and so little was it antici pated that she should use it as her own property, that a formal list had been made out of the arti cles in the books of the Lord Chamberlain, of which the followinir was the title—" A list of his Majesty's plate in loan to the Princess of Wales while residing in Kensington Palace."—(Hear, hear !)—This list was in existence at the time when the plate was reclaimed ; and if her Ma jesty used it elsewhere than in Kensington Palace, she exercised a • discretion which was not war ranted. As the Learned Gentleman had been pleased to make assertions, he (Lord Castle reagh) was at liberty to make counter-assertions, and would say with regard to this plate, that the Princess of Wales not being satisfied with it, Lord Aylesford went to the King and explained this circumstance, afraid that he might have given offence ; and the King ' then stated, that he had no more control over that plate than he had over the crown lands.—(Hear, hear !)—From this fact a judgment might be formed of the sort of advice her Majesty had received from her Coun sel : he could only judge 'of the counsel from its fruits, and very pretty fruits it had produced on the present occasion. —(Hear, and laughter.) — He held in his hand a copy of the official letter on which this grave proceeding before Parlia ment was founded, and he thought that the read ing of it would decide the fate of this, the Learn ed Gentleman's first legal effort in this cause. The Learned Gentleman had recently asked leave to attend at the Bar of the House of Lords, as one of her Majesty's Counsel, and he could not help hoping,' that his professional - exertions there would prove more successful than they were likely to be on the present occasion.-- (Hear, and laughter.)—The letter was from Lady Ann Hamilton, and addressed to the Lord Chamberlain, in the following terms— " The Queen desires the Lord-Chamberlain to deliver her plate, given to her by his late Majesty, to the bearer John Hieronimus, her Chamberlain." He would here observe, that the Lord Chamberlain's answer, which had been read by the Learned Gentleman, stating that his Ma jesty had not given any orders for the removal of the plate from the Jewel Office, was so far from being a harsh answer, that it was positively the only one he could give. He again complain ed of the Learned Gentleman, because he either did not understand the question, or had neglect ed to give it that diligence which became a man of business. When her Majesty was about to visit the Continent in 1814, she desired her servants to take a more authoritative step than that which Lady Ann Hamilton had taken under her histrdctions, for she had' actually ordered them to pack up this plate ) with the intention of taking it with her : it was ac tually packed up for that purpose, and if the Lord Chamberlain had not sent note on the subject to Mr. Mash, it As-ould have' gone bat of the country ; and if it' had gone onttf the coun try, he (Lord Castlereagh) . did not know—per haps the Learned Gentternah could infOim him —by what proceSs it could have been brought back. This, however, was not the only • step taken by her Majesty ; -for, from Geneva, she had written a letter by Sir W. Gell, to a Mr. Cooper, ordering him to take the necessary mea sures to procure, her plate from the Lord Cham berlain, as at that time she was particularly de sirous of having it. He now hoped that the House was aware of the real nature of the case, and that it would perceive for what purpose this question had been agitated. If the only object had been to procure for her Majesty every necessary comfort and convenience, he had shewn that Lord Liverpool, when the subject was first mentioned to .him, had said at once that a proper service of plate should be provided. Ile again asserted, that this was an attempt to lacerate the peace of the country, by dragging the • present question into discussion. .He confessed that he had been pro voked to forget his duty ; and a Minister could not be guilty of a greater neglect of it than by entering so much' into a detail of circumstances that ought to be left to the conduct of the Crown itself, and which were never intended the made the subject of Parliamentary inquiry. If this question could even be shown, by any tortured construction, to affect her Majesty's comfort, and her present situation, he thought his Hon.Friend— he meant to say the lion, and Learned Gentleman-- (1 laugh I)—before he submitted a motion on the subject, should have exhausted every attempt to get information from his Majesty's Ministers; for the Queen's advisers, he might be allowed to say, had not found Ministers inaccessible. But, instead of communicating previously with the Ministers of the Crown, he had even brought the matter for ward when he knew there was none of them in the House who had any information on the subject The note of Lady Ann Hamilton was dated as far back as the Ist of July, and since that period lie thought the Learned Gentleman might have found time to make some inquiry of Ministers before he rushed into Parliament. He trusted he had satisfied the . House that the persons at the head `of 'the Government, so far 'froth thwarting her Majesty's -. comfort .and convenienCe, had shown a disposition to -promote it as' much as was in their :power ; and. that, so far .from thiS plate belonging to the Queen, she might just :a s well claim his (Lord Castlereagh's) estate, and the King had just 'as much right to dis pose of the one as of the othc;r. In 'conclusion, he hoped the: House .would .cordially join with him in putting a decided negative 'on the present motion.—(Hear, hear . Lord A. HAmivraN was by no means 'satisfied with the answer s of the 'Noble Lord upon all points, particularly where he .had contended that it was not in the power of the late King to make a present of plate. He (Lord A. Hamilton) would not have made any observation on this subject, had he not felt a firm persuasion that 'her Majesty had all along believed it to b.e her property. The very acts which'the Noble Lord had attributed to the Queen were evidence of this conviction. She had ordered it to be packed up because she" considered it her own beyond queStion. He admitted that if, as the Noble Lord had argued, the' King had it not in his power to make a present of this plate, then the case of the Queen had no merits on which it could be founded. The Noble Lord had ar raigned the conduct of the Hon. Member who had introduced this - . subject very severely, and, he might say, unwarrantably, as coming forward with a complaint of an unusual kind, and unfit for Parliamentary investigation. He (Lord A. Hamilton) -admitted. .that the subject 'was one which ought not, if it could 'possibly be avoided, to be -brought under the notice of the House ; but he . would ask, whether the peculiar situation of her Majesty was not such as to lead her to have no very sanguine ex pectations froni the justice of the King's Minis ters. When the Noble Lord talked so vehe mently of systematic. endeavours to inflame the public mind, did-he recollect the systematic en deavours to insult and degrade her Majesty ? (Hear, hear, hear.)—The prOof was easy, and the often-mentioned subject of the Liturgy in stantly presented 'itself. Was not 'that an inflic tion of injustice ? Were not the refusal of a ves sel to convey the Queen to England, and 1 - v‘r want of a fit residence here, to be looked upon in the same point of view 1 - Hes would appeal to any man whether she had even-the ordinary means of communications with Ministers ; and at this moment she was deprived of the aid of her At torney and Solicitor-General. But this Was 'not all. - She had to complain of injustice, not- merely from Ministers, but from that portionof the Press that favoured their view. Had she not been held up to the world, in one of the publiC prints, as a person,' who, for the ft - lte• Of :the peace. of the Country, ought to be . gritridvf, and:whether, as a martyr - or as a cCimitlal ycris .consequence ? --(Hear, hear !)—lf 'Ministers did their 'duty, ought they not to repress' girth . denunciations ? There was another pOint—inconsistent, he was sure, with the feelings of the-NOble Lord, and, he hoped, with those of his Royal Masten—'--Why was the Queen up to the present hour bblirred'to - s upply her wants for the conveniences of her household by hiring all articles of furniture ? . All these matters deserved conSideration ; and the contemplation of the whole case only more 'and more convinced himthat no subject had ever come before Parliament more unfortunate 'for the loyal Family 'and the Country at large. Mr. MARTIN could not patiently - hear the mis representations of the Gentlemen at the other side of the House, and opposed the motion.. Mr..C. HuTcniNsox thought there was rea son to complain of the temper displayed by the House on' the present *occasion when it was con sidered that-it was them who would have to de- cide gravely upon the Bill fraught with such im portant consequences as that at present pending in Parliament:: He thought there was reason' to complain that the House should be dragged for- ward, and forced to take a part in a discussion which had no connection with the main question. After what the Noble Lord had stated, he was perstiaded the motion of his Honourable and Learited Friend would not be persevered in. Ite thought the i Nohle Lord had made out a com plete case.—(Hear, hear !)—He begged to do justice to the Hon. Gentleman who had opened the discussion, who merited much consideration for the distinguished manner in which he ac quitted himself, although, in a Tarliame.ntary sense, he wished to convey, as far as he could in language, his reprobation of the course he had taken: He was sorry he should not have better informed himself on the question before he used- language which he conceived he was not justified in using , .—(Hear, hear I)—With respect to the tendency these measures would have to -agitate the public mind ) he must state his regret that Government, if they had the power, should permit to go unpunished a portion of the public press., He referred among others to the Morning Post. He had seen other Papers, certainly less respectable than the one he had just mentioned, which were guilty of an outrage so fak as to incite the people - to destroy the witnesses brought to this Cmintry in a case which had been alladed to. This Paper repre sented these witnesses as " enfans perdus,"—said that London was too hot to hold them—they were gone, and whether they would return, nous verrons ; which was as much as to say, " let's see if they dare to return." He was as great a lover of liberty as any one, as anxious for economy and for reform, and for a reform of that House to begin with, still he must say, he deprecated any attempt to intimidate ; and he declared, if any attempts were made to intimidate him froth his duty, he should be more determined and resolute in dis charging it. He lamented as much as any man that the subject should have been forced upon them, and he must says without . saying that the subject had been mismanaged:-:--(Hear; hear!)—lt was hard the public should be made to stiffer in consequence of the misconduct of the affair. He hoped the Queen would come out of this matter as pure as her dearest friends could wish, if she were innocent ; and if it should ap pear to be a persecution, he hoped ignominy and punishment would be heaped on the heads of, her persecutors. In the mean time nothing should be done which tended' to affect the impartiality of the cases Lord A. HAMILTON explained, Mr. STUART WORTLEY said, that after what he had heard stated on Saturday, he had certainly felt disposed to vote for the motion of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Dr. Lushington); but after the explanation which had been given that evening, he felt relieved, and he thought the , country and the House would feel relieved.— (Hear, .hear!)--In this state of the case he hoped it would' be a' lesson to thepublic and to that llouse, which would let them know that - there' were attempts at work to deceive -them into false compassion on this subject.—(Hear, hear!) —He. agreed with an Hon. Friend, who had spoken on the subject, that the 'Learned Gen tleman might not meant° make . use of such means on the present occasion for that express purpose ; but he must observe, that from the statement made by the Noble Lord, either her Majesty, or some one about her, must have known that" she had no right to this property. • :Mr. IfusKissox stated his' belief, that it was not in the power of the King to diSpose.of any part of the plate under the charge of the Lord Chamberlain ; at least not without the consent of his responsible advisers. He had happened to be in the Administration when Kensington Palace was ordered to be fitted up for the then. Pri ncess's reception. Amongst the articles required was a service of plate ; and he (Mr. Huskisson) was the 'humble individUal who suggested, that there would be found, perhaps, plate sufficient in the Jewel Office which might save the expence of an entire new set. It so happened that an adequate quantity of old Crown-plate was found, which was sent - to the silversmith's 'and re modelled, and handed over solely, as all the other things were, for the use of her Majesty; during - her residence at Kensington Palace. It was so entered in the Books of' the Lord Cham berlain 1808, when first deliVered. When the- Duke of Cambridge occupied apartments in St. James's Palace, he had the use Of a service of plate, as one of the Royal Family ; but when, in consequence of fire, he•was 'forced to retire into a private residence, the plate was returned. (Hear, hear !)—lt was always a rule to give the loan of plate for all residents of a Palace, which was regarded in the light of, furniture suitable to that special residence. The plate which was - at the Palace of Windsor, even for the use of the Kinff could not have been removed without an entry of its removal being made, in order that it might be traced where it went to. He conceived, therefore, that there could not have been a mis conception on the subject. Dr: LUSHINGTON, in reply, said, he did not court the office which - was put upon him as, one of. her Majesty's advisers ; but he hoped .being called on so to act he would neither fear nor be found wanting in the discharge of his duty. On Friday last, for the first time, he became acquaint; ed with the facts he had stated, and it was not till late on that day his Learned Friend (Mr. Denman); who was to have made fhe motion, told him he, was obliged to leave town. On that oc casion- he Suggested the propriety of sending Word to the 'Noble Lord, and understood from the Chancellor of the ExcheqUer, when he appeared in his place on Saturday, that he might be expect ed. The Noble Lord, however, did not come down; and he asked, was he to postpone his motion be , .cause of his non-attendan ce, and when he further n erred, saw the rapidity with which p ublic business was prs s lt: he it was on the d this discussion with an y view of agitati n g the public mind , s i e eo e f d forward duty b u t ? he denied that h e undertook had been as ch arged against him.