The Sun. — London, England, 1820-08-28 00:00:00

~1 oe iE Idly • the , ava- the arces imea e oc busi- 119 t, ge ,und ally and Wl' rard, wha► a Un- 3g oil meri their with' disa- time ; Whole rverat r 70, cased. I LIAM, [AMP lately irteelt_ arl o f naecl have )1100' Alt he gild C in his as sae :e the vena - T heir ged 1 0 a antl )on al; uts rfectlf the Luger A un' i n aTIP till to- Morrow morningat Ten o'Clock. PARIS PAPERS. FIVE PER CENTS. Wednesday. INln w ect Or tbe e red t" not el ; king ° ,l 01 1 t SP li le lei ihorte": 1% 5 7°94- Le' Patiu ti tbe' t rrti L,OOcV a 'I vie 5. , Dr' e#.9 ' he at t 5 1 , 4, 1,03 e tte- A nde he 7 10 I Y O f obi not* of boo• 78 f. 50 C. °f the 22d Sept. DEFE 1819RRED STOCK. 94 f . 70 C. 9i f 40 C. 42d Nlarch, 1820 SECOND EDITION. SUN-OFFICE, Hail-Past Five. HOUSE OF LORDS.—(Tuts EVENING.) The Debate ended soon atter.the period we ha ve mentioned, as to its being agreed to hear th e question argued by the Counsel on each side. Counsel being in consequence called In' M essrs. BROUGHAM and DENMAN were }ieara -L. 7,,„ support of the mode of cross-examina- ton S uggested by them, and the ATTORNEY and So t. , Lei Tou-GENERAL against it. Mr. BROUGHAM in t he course of his reply, alluded to the superior means Possessed by the Government, of paying • nesses to come from abroad, and of forcing th e and also of preventing witnesses from • com ing for THE QUEEN. T ile Earl of LIVERPOOL, on moving the ad . lent, took occasion to refer to this insinua tion of BROUGHAM, his Lordship declaring in the most unequivocal manner that unlimited Peci-nt, - ary means were placed at the disposal of QuEy.N's professional Agents, in order to • . . Pr o f - . ure the attendance' of witnesses, and that whene'r.er witnesses were compelled to attend in s , "PPirrof the Bill, the - same means would be tiled to 40 1Tipbrilt -.attendance of witnesses on behalf o f ,y 4 r HE QUEEN. Af ter a few words from Lord ERSKINE, ar- 0 that to avoid the diffit'ulties that pressed • them, it would be advisable to postpone th e furthe r proceedings till the QUEEN could Ila ve her witnesses ready, and in the mean time t° grant her a List of Witnesses, and the parti culars or times and places, the House adjourned " e received yesterday the Paris Papers of Th •-. 148 day'last. Those of Friday, which were this morning, have not arrived. Paris con tit, j a i tt very tranquil. TIN preliminary proceed ttg's Against the Conspirators were going on wit hout delay. T he KIN G on Wednesday held a Council of " liste r's) and transacted business with Marshal the n ut . e de TARENTE, Grand Chancellor of the te; " n of Honour. After the Council, the Mi laiste rs de asi;embled at the residence of the -e RICIIELFELT• The accou n t s f rom N ap l es , o f th e 7th i ns t ant, state that the utmost. silence was maintained re i"ting th e o bj ec t o f th e D eputa ti on f rom Pa :111°. Ac cor di ng to pr i vate l etters, t h e De ni4tiwl went f or th e p ur p ose o f neg oci a ting th e tl t 'l l nden ce of Sicily, to which the Neapolitan Z er4 lent would not listen for a moment. le : h ere is another report, on the authority of a h a r from Leghorn, of a dreadful revolution th vtli g taken place at Constantinople ; it is added, 'ne-fifth of the population had fallen vie s in the contest which took place. Sath RE QUEEN.—Iter r.IAJ ESTY came to town on . - , r uay at a l a t er h our th an usua l. O n h er ai - I: at the House of Lords, she proceeded to ouiS e i ti ring-rootn„ and there remained, attended 144 °Y Lady Anne Hamilton and her Chamber -4e4 h inqUired who was being examined t , to4k. her seat in the retiring-room, and did not en e l'or r Z e House. Her Majesty having been in joeri'll that their Lord.ihips were about to ad l're-15 she returned home about one o'clock. as t l: th e suddenness of her departure the crowd Per s :,; So great as usual, but a vast concourse of v °ar s s assembled in St. James's-square, in the l ~essi pP ° , the aft ernoon in expectation of wit his, 1 depart ure for ' the night to her villa. 'rove Place at half }last five, and her Majesty eel a tnidst•the loud cheers of crowds assem ;rippi/bis evening. her Majesty will receive the may fo r Address, in St. James's-square. The „, rate . k b —,•lving the Liverpool Address has_ not 4 .40 rd L ,"° appointed. It will be presented by Left and Mr. Creevey. 1- I' tte, 'ast st. - - , rs from King.ston Jamaica, of the 11th -‘p that General DEVEREUX arrived there (.11 P ., 18 t, from Margaritta—He a I; t, but her signals not being answered,_.n sailed to Rio fo r Prc'ekeded to Kingston for the purpose of 41 ati on 1 4r w; if°llovving is an extract of a letter from_ rer,''en dated the 24th instant :—" A I °7 . rti," l " was sent down here yesterday by the . fo , under the care of Mr. KAY, s ti L-ic: s it t g , er. lie was sent on board the Earl of f cr Packet ; not allowed any communicah -44,4 „ t arn the shore : and the packet sailed wit 'ills morning for Cuxhaven." PARLIAMENT, HOUSE OF LORDS, SATURDAY, Atld. '26: THE QUEEN. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat at with.: in five minutes of ten, and the Bishop of WIN CHESTER read prayers. At a quarter past ten Counsel were called in. Charles Curstein, a German Interpreter for the Queen, was then sworn. The Interpreter, who attended yesterday for the King, again attended this day. The last question and answer were then read. Barbara Crantz, the witness of yesterday, was then examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL. — The last answer was, " the Princess had got up, and,l had retired." The ATTORNEY-GENERAL.—Q. The witness stated, that she saw the Princess sitting on Ber gami's bed ; what happened after you saw her sitting there ?—A. 1 saw the Princess sitting on the bed, and afterwards I withdrew. Before you withdrew what did you see ?—I saw that she jumped up, I withdrew, and was frightened. I understand that you saw the Princess sitting on Bergami's bed. Describe what happened af terwards Interpreter—She asks if you mean during that same evening ? Yes ;at that very time.-1 saw the Princess on the bed, and I withdrew. Before you withdrew, what did the Princess do ; did she continue to sit on the bed, or what happened ?—She saw the Princess jump up. She then withdrew, for she was frightened. Some difficulty arose here as to whom the wit ness meant to describe as being frightened. It appeared that she meant to say that she herself was frightened. The LORD CHANCELLOR directed the Inter preter to give the. witness's own words, and be careful when she said " /," not to render it "she." I understand witness to state that she then withdrew ?—Yes. A Noble Peer desired the, Interpreter to put the questions to the witness in the first person singular, and not in the third person. Did you make up the bed in No. 12, Berga mi's room ?—Yes. Did you at any time, when making the bed, discover any thing on the bed ?—On the bed. On, or in the bed ?—ln the bed I have found a cloak. Did the cloak appear to belong to a female ? Probably : because behind it had a kind of capot or hood. What did you do with it aft(rwards?—As I took it out, I placed it asunder ' I unfolded it. IVhat time of the day was it when you found the cloak ?—lt was in the morning when I made the bed. Describe the cloak a little more particularly ? It was of silk ; the colour grey. Did you afterwards see any one wearing that cloak ?—The servant had taken it out of my hand. Did you see any body wear that cloak after wards ?—I saw a cloak. on the Princess the next day; but I cannot swear that it was the same. Was it a cloak of a similar description to that which she had found iu the bed ?—Yes ; it was of the same colour. You say it was of the same colour; do you know whether it was of the same substance—was it silk ?--It was silk. Had the cloak which the Princess wore a capot or hood, like that found in the bed ?—Yes; it had such a hood. [The examination here became such as we can not give. It related to the appearance of the bed in which her Royal Highness slept. The witness was much affected at Mutt compelled to give this sort of evidence. The Interpreter an nounced to the House that she was crying, and appeared about to faint. Some of their Lord ships desired that she might be supplied with a glass of water, while others called for a chair, that she might sit till she had recovered herself.] When the witness had somewhat recovered, the examination in chief was continued. Did you at any time, in making up the bed, ob serve any thing else on the sheets, or any other part of the bed ?—The interpreter observed that the witness, in her answer, made use of a word which he could not express in English without being permitted to ask the witness to explain. He was permitted to ask an explanation of the witness, and he gave the answer thus : G 4 When 1 once made the bed, I saw the sheets that they were vasted" (a German word explained by wit ness to mean that they were in disorder). Mr. Brougham desired his interpreter to explain the word. Curstein, the Queen's interpreter, ex plained it wasted. The adjective (wasted) is derived from a substantive meaning a desert. The Attorney-General asked the other interpre ter, Goulterman, what he meant by the word vasted, and desired him to translate it literally. This interpreter said he was rather at a loss to explain. The interpreter (Curstein) then said, that from the explanation of the witness, she meant to say that the sheets were stained. The Chancellor desired to know if all the parties were agreed as to the interpretation, and if so, to give the answer word for word. The inter preter Curstein theft said, that the witness was first at a loss to say what she meant, but that she afterwards explained herself by saying that the sheets were stained.—(Cries of Go on, go The Attorney-General desired the interpreter to attend, and be proceeded with the examina tion. What sort of stains were they ? [ln this place we must decline giving the answer, and one or two of the subsequent questions and answers. The witness was much affected by the delicacy of her situation, and the examination was inter rupted by her crying. A glass of water was given her, and some Peers desired that she should have a chair. The witness was then asked, What was the colour or appearance to you of those spots on the bed of Bergami ? The witness, still crying, hesitated, and in a faint voice said, " You will pardon me." The ques tion was necessarily pressed, but we must decline • -• • t titt'ti • th at giving the iiiiSWer, e xcept y g w s of such a nature as is considered amply sufficient in the Courts below td substantiate the charge of the criminal act.] The examination having been coneluded, BlidUGliAM observed to their Lordships that, he took it for granted, according to the un derstanding that had existed with respect to the evidence, that he 'should have an opportunity of cross , eiatnining all the 'witnesses on a future occasion. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that such an ar rangetnent would be contrary to the rules of evi dence which existed in the Courts of West minster. Mr. BROUGHAM said, that the irregularity al luded to necessarily arose from the radial of the list of witnesses. his object in addressing their Lordships was, that he might be enabled, after, the exathinatiOn in chief of the witnesses, to cross examine them as fully as the circumstances would permit, and, at a subsequent time, to proceed with the cross-examination on such points as he had it not now in his power to bring forward. Mr. DE MAN said, that he also had an impor tant request to make with respect td the exami nation of the first witness (Majocci), but it Would be affected by the arrangement to which his Learned Friend had adverted: The LORD CHANCELLOR said, the Learned Counsel were not to conclude that any rule had been made to the effect of calling up witnesses for a second examination. Ile could not see any thing more irregular than cross-examining wit nesses more than, once. Mr. BROUGHAM admitted the irregularity of the proceeding ; but pleaded .the peculiar cir cumstances which distinguished this cast from any other, in justification of the request to de part from the usual rule of practice. Their Lordships had given no information as to the situation or residences of any of the witnesses ; no instruction pointing out a convenient certainty of time, or a convenient peculiarity of place, when or where the alleged facts had taken place. The plan he had laid down for himself, in consequence of this denial of such necessary information, vt-as not to examine the witnesses at once, as it were, unico contextu ; but to confine his cross-examina tion, at first, to those points which arose obvious ly out of the direct examination, leaving it to a future period to avail himself of his own sources of information. He should now proceed to the cross-examination of the witness as to what im mediately suggested itself to him in consequence of the examinatio❑ in chief. The LORD CHANCELLOR permitted the cross examination to proceed, but intimated that their Lordships were not bound by any rule, such as had been argued for by the Learned Counsel. His Lordship, at the same time, recommended that the cross-examination should be deferred until the Queen should be prepared for her de fence. The witness was then cross-examined by Mr BROUGHAM, and the Queen's Interpreter tram slated the evidence. How long is it since you were chamber-maid at the inn ?—A year and three quarters. Were you married at that time ?—No. Did you marry after you left the inn ?—Yes. What were you before you were chamber-maid at the inn ?—I had served before. Where ?—At Bagherten, a little village. In what service were you ?—Chamber-maid at the Hotel. Were you in any other family as a servant ?-- Yes. In what family ?—ln several families. Name one of them ? Marvais. What is Marvais ?--Landlord of an inn. Were you chamber-maid there i—Yes. How long ?—Half a year. Where did Marvais live ?—At Bagherten, a small village. Who with beside ?—ln the establishment of the Duke of Baden. Were you servant before that ?— . l came to that place on leaving my father's house ; on leaving school. Did you ever live in any other capacity but as a servant ?—I was going to say I was in another place half a year. In what place ?—At Carlsruhe. Who with ?—Schnarval. What is he ?—A landlord, Were you chamber-maid there ?—No, house maid. What are the duties of that situation ?-1 cleaned the public rooms in the inn. Have you lived in any other situation but those you have mentioned ?—None. Lord ELLEN BO ROUGH here remarked, that as the two Interpreters sometimes differed in their translations of the answers, one giving them much fuller than the other, he wished to know which of then, was inserted in the Minutes. Mr. GURNEY, the short-hand writer, said, both the answers were inserted. The Bishop of PETERnououcu made some observations on the different interpretations that were given. Mr. BROUGIIAM resumed the examination. How long have you been here ?—Two days and three weeks. • Who did you come over with ?—With the Courier. Who carte over with you ?—Reissner. A n ybody else ?—Yes, 1 took my brother with me, for I did not like to come alone. What is the name of your brother ?—rrederic Kleinbech. How old is your brother ?—I do not kn ow ex actly, about twenty-eight years of age. Who paid your expenses in coming over ?—I do not know ; the Courier paid in travelling. Who asked you to come over ?—At Carlsruhe, our Minister, M. Bevstadt. Did any other person speak to you on the subject ?—When I was with him I saw nobody else. Has any other Minister or Ambassador spoken to you on the subject ?—Yes, M. de Qalling. 'What is be ?—I don't know. Did any other person speak to you on this bu- sineis' =Yens Arnbastaddt fit iYittitsiiniri while I was still at the Inn. Atiyht‘dy else ydo iteden. What is 111: Von kedtifilL—Thet toictstne he was Ambassador of Where did he live in Cat.lsruhe Heed at a of the name , Did lie live any *here else ?-.-I cannot say. Did he often cottth to the iiiri Whereqou were chambermaid ?—f fiever saw him at thAi Did lie examine ydii on this tibject ? Grimm asked me first; • ;1: Where was that ?—At Wirtembefr. Did you leave Carlsruhe to gOdany his busitiBS before you came here ?—Yes. Were ydii eir6r at Vienna ?-ISTo. Did you ever see Colonel Broven Major Deering dd not know what *'as did uame of the Gentlediah where,l has. At what place ?—At IlanoYer: When did you go to II atimrer was on leay.;- ing the Post him I was called to go there. Who called you to go there ?—M. Von Reden: Ho* long did ydu remain at Hanover on this occasion ?—Six or seven days, I can't say exactly: Were you examined there on this " suhjept They asked me whether 1 had seen - such 0.4 such things: What did you get for going there ?--LLA knari sum for the time I had lost. How much cannot say ; it was very little: Then it will be the easier reiriethhered ? About 16 or 18 ducats ; each ducat makes five florins. (flte'whole suiri is abotit 41. English currency. . What wages did have had tWelve . florins each; but we reckoned most on perquisites; • , ;• Did anybody 6156 give you . ' - atiy 'thing for gOinig,. — there I receited nothing else. I chi not ask time or place ; but have you re= ceived litiythitig girice ha - e been fetched: to go to Frankfort. • _ Who fetched yoti td Frarikiprt ?—The valet de chatnbre of the Hanoverian Minigter. How long did you reiriain at Frankfort ?—Four or five da•:s. . Were you examined there ?—They Asked me what I had seen, and I told them the same. As yOti told here ?—Yes, the same thing as I stated here. • What did they give you at frankfort ?—Tvvelye or fourteen ducats. Have yott received any thing . else since :—No; except from the Gentleman who fetched me front the post inn. The courier ?—No, I do not kitow who he was'; he was a stfanger: What did he give you ?--11 - 0 caused me twice to call on him, and said I mtist gcvto London. I - did not want to go, but he said I should be forced to go. Did he give you any thing ?--Yes, a ducat for my trouble. Did he give yoii any more %---Only the second. time, Did he give ydu nothing snore? The Earl of LAUDERDALE rose and interrupted: the cross-examination, Which he contended had gone much too far. A Counsel 'should be per mitted to elicit facts by cross-examination, Which might afterwards enable him to impeach the cre. , ' dibility of the witness. The LORD CHANCELLOR agreed with the Noble Lord who had just spoken, that the Cross examination had gone very far indeed. It was not right that a Counsel should ransack the whole life of a witness merely to find some act or - cir cumstance in it, which might enable him at a fu ture period to impeach the credibility of - that' witness. It was irregular and highly improper. The House is, in this point, very singularly- situ= ated ; for their Lordships must hear all the ex= aininations and cross-examinations before one- of them is allowed to ask a question. This was, in fact, an injustice to both parties. MIN BROUGHAM resumed—l wish this question to be put to the witness, " Whether her brother was ever promised any thing ?)"—(No, no ! from several parts of the House.) The question was not allowed to be put. Mr. BROUGHAM-The next question I would propose to her is, " Where are you now (No, no! from several of their Lordships.) The Duke of 11Amtvrox was of opinion that the question was a necessary consequence of the refusal of their Lordships to give, in the first in stance, a list of the witnesses and their places of residence. Lord SIDMOUTII thought, that the answers t 0.., the first three questions, put by the Counsel for the What is your name What are''' . you ?'—Where do 'ou live ?'—constituted the list required, and that no further qttestions were necessary on that head. The LORD CHANCELLOR wished to impress tut he minds of the Counsel on both sides, that the Ilouse was sincerely and conscientiously endea., , vouriug to do justice in the case ; and that they ought to be careful not to press any question upon it which they did not believe absohitely necessary, and within the limits prescribed. Counsel should repose in the honour of. the House, and the House would repose in the ho nour of the Counsel. Lord DoNoucumoat thought that the House . had fallen into great error in the course .of these proceedings. The House felt that it had done so. The Noble and Learned Lord on the \\Tool- . sack had admitted, that they had done what 'had , better not be repeated. In the examination of : Majocci, the cross-examination had been allowed to go to . a length highly improper.—(Order,. order !). Lord Grey thought the Noble Lord ought to confine himself to the propriety of allow lug the% question to be put, which was now proposed by Mr. Brougham. Lord .DoNourinuoat: could not see how h e was out of order. The Noble and Learizk'd Lord I-on the Woolsack had been allowed to :;ay the same thing, and had not been called to order. His Lordship was glad that the House ..f,.aw an d felt their error ; he thought the irregularity into which the House had fallen , --that their facility.