The Sun. — London, England, 1849-04-27 00:00:00

bad toteat pay was increased ; and he prop osed all claims in respect of them should be substan tiated_ by an action of debt, in which a judg ment, as in common law, might be obtained. Then with respect to the sale of land for the purpose of paying the arrears due for poor-rate, he found t hat there wou ld b e great difficulty in dating with that* subject, and as he wished to confine himself as much Ile Possible to the amendment of the poor-law, he pro red th a t on t h e non -p a y me nt of the rates the lessor should have the power of ousting the te nant. lie did no t t hi n k , however, there was any such extent ;t Pauperism in Ireland as might nut be rel ieved b y the rates as in ordinary years. He was surpr izsd to find that the a moun t o f a ble-bodied labourers w ho, with their families, received relief from the poor law durin g the months of June and July lest was not greater than in ordinary years. The number stated by the Poor-law Commissioners was 70,000. The num eer in England was much greater than in Ireland, being SOme 90,000; but at the same time there was not such a very after great di s proportion between the two. The quastiun, all, was whether, supposing that there was not every ye ar a very great scarcity ; it was possible for Ireland to go on supporting her poor b y law s made as efficiently as possible for that purpose. So far from the Country being pauperised by the poor-law, it was very much more likely to be much better cultivated if there was some security for the proper reqef of the destitute Poor. He begged leave to move to bring in the Bill. Mr. STAFEuRD said the Noble Lord had stated that he believed, in ordinary years, as distinct from years of famine, rates could be levied amply sufficient to maintain the population of that country. The difference between those who had acted under the gu'dence of the 11 ° 131 e Lord and those who had ventured, session atter session, to recommend a different course of pone ) , with regard to this difficult subject was this, that they had over and over again called the attention of the House to the fact, that the famine in Ireland did not, as the Noble Lord still seemed to imagine, leave the country where it found it. The poor-law in Ireland, as at present constituted, had a ten dency to feed pauperism rather than the income of the country—and, though be had urged over and over again, to the House, that owing to the inefficiency of the Poor-law, thousands of lives had been and were sacrificed, still the operation of the poor-law left the p ro p ortion be • tvreen p a uperism and the population as wide as ever. He had to express his regret that the Government had de termined upon what he might call piecemeal legislation. Th e Noble Lord had s lid he was not prepared to go into the question of the sale of land for the arrears of Poor-rates. hat he m•ea roe die& that considerable dis cussion had already taken place upon that point. (Lord Joint Russ, it appeared to dissent.) Well, then, he wished the Noble Lord would state the nature of the measures which he intended to bring forward on this subject. He began by detain; with the most difficult question of all—the maximum rate. It was true, he did not say the Government was Pledged to an irrevocable rate of ss. and 2s. That question he seemed to leave open fur discussion. But he did not say what was to be done in any electoral division where the rates exceeded 7s. From what fund was distress to be alleviated when that maximum had been reached? He ought to have ex plained from what source the funds were to come. It Could not come from the rate in aid fund, since that Would be sufficiently expended; it was difficult, there fore, to say from what source it would come, except from the Imperial Treasury. But ho omitted to mention another subject, which was mere important than either the 2s. or ss. rate. It was a matter of the greatest possible importance, namely, whether a ss. rate was to be merely struck, or whether it was to be bona fide collected. — (Cheers.) Let them have a 6d. rate, or of any other amount, but whatever was its amount let it be actually collected. He did not hesitate to say that unless the area of taxation were rendered smaller than the Com missioners proposed to make it, the working of the poor law would be even much worse than it had been. He considered that it would be far better if the Noble Lord had brought in a complete measure on the subject of the poor -laws for Ireland. He confessed that one of the greatest wonders he met with in the Irish poor-law was the mode in which the English and Scotch Members re garded it; because there was not one of them whose con stituents would not lose by the increased demands upon their purse, in consequence of the neglect of proper ad vice upon the subject, which was too often observable. The fact was, that unless they could render the poor law in Ireland favourable to employment, there was but little hope of their rendering it permanently useful. The workhouse test could not be properly applied, when their workhouses were full; and after all, after considering all the numerous ramifications of the question, they must always come back to the old one. Where was the money to come from? In many cases the recommenda tions of the Boundary Commissioners as to the new unions, were strongly opposed; but if they were adopted, twenty-one new unions, and twenty-one new union houses must be erected, and that too at the cost of the Imperial Treasury. Pronouncing no opinion upon the general question, ho should propose a resolution, the object of which was to pat a stop to the tendency to jobbing which this system certainly had. He should propose that the opinion of boards of guardians should be taken in reference to proposed unions, and that if the guardians refuse to make new unions, it should be com petent to the Thundery Commissioners to negotiate loans as they best might; but unless the guardians would do PO on their own account, such boundary of unions should remain undisturbed. As a gene ral rule, in assimilating the poor-law of Ireland with that of Scotland, ho thought that the tax should bear some proportion to the rent, and that when that rent was very large, it should be borne by the occupying tenant. The foundation of all their im provemeuts in the poor-law was bawd upon the area of taxation, although the Right Honourable G. ntleman the Chancellor of the Exchever seemed very unwilling to acknowledge it. The diminution of the area of taxa tion, was the change which they desired, but it was too bold a measure to introduce as a substantive matter of reform. They would approach it, however, as a pre liminary step, by recommending that it should be an in struction to the Boundary Commissioners to assimilate ss nearly as possible the electoral divisions of Ireland to the average size of the parishes in England, which, he believed, was about 2,000 acres. Before the debate closed . he hoped to hear from some member of the Go vernment that they intended to take steps with that object in view, and he could assure him that he had only taken part in the debate in order to point out what ap peared to him the material character of the measure which should be introduced, in order to provide a better operation of the poor-law in Ireland than had hitherto prevailed. Mr. W. FAG AN said, that although he agreed with the Honourable Member who had just spoken, that the diminution of the area of taxation might en courage employment, and that a great many thought it would have the effect, still it seemed to be admitted by every one, that it would also lead to clearances, wheh would have a co tr sy tendency. He did not think it justice that the Noble Lord should propose a greater tax on the tenant, and that without assigning any reason for the change. There was another point, also, upon which he thought it light to make a complaint, and that was, thet the persons deriving money from Government offices were exempted from paying the rate. The land lord of the Customhouse at Cork received annually 8001. from that establishment, and did not pay a single farthing. These were matters deserving of serious at tention, and he hoped that he might not have alluded to them fruitlesdy.—(llear.) Lord BERNARD said he wished to make a few ob servations on the subject of the area of taxation. He believed that question to be the root of the whole mis chief, and without entertaining the extreme opinions expressed by a great many, he certainly thought that the present divisions for taxation were much too large. The great question in Ireland was the area of taxation, which people were anxious to have brought to a settle ment. It was stated at a meeting held at Bandon, upon the subject of the poor-laws, that Lord Bantry and his son had borrowed 12,0301. to effect improve ment, but only expended 2,3001. when they found, in consequence of the area of taxation, that any further expenditure would not alleviate the pressure of taxation. In the union of which he was the chairman he had suggested a rate in aid of emigration, but they found that although they might remove by emigration some able-bodied persons from the workhouse, their place would be taken by other parties, who would be stimulated to apply, not only from want, but through a desire to obtain the means of emigration. He was convinced no change in the poor-law would ba effected without auxi liary measures. Railways would be must beneficial to the country. The grant made to the Southern Railway had been attended with the greatest advantage. H e hoped the Government would take means to establish railways in those parts of Ireland where they did not exist. Mr. P. SCROPE hoped the Noble Lord would adopt some provision, which would provide shelter for the houseless poor, thousands of whom are wandering a bout the country a l m ost in a state of nudity._ The workhouses also we re in a most de fective state, the . n - D ates being left without a c han g e of clothing. In the dying One hundred per week. There was another point with regard to the resp on sibility of poor-law officers . to which he wished to refer. Be considered that where ltfe veasubject alcst th roug h th e ir neglect, they oug ht to b to prosecutime He thought th e y ou g ht to „ fide eon the cri g i na l principle of the poor-law, and pro emrpPloymeut for the paupers of Ireland. With. ,ttte i sl to the question of a small area of taxation, the de s tit would be that the landlords would clear off their premi u u te tenants. A small area of taxation would be a !,1, for evictions. Memb HERBERT denied that his Hon. Friend the ruirein" for Northamptonshire said that a pot r-law was Cor ing Ireland, as alleged by the Hon. Member for on hie side was it stated by any Honourable Member Neith ' 4 ..e,,0f the 'Luse, to his personal knot~ ledge. reent er ', ad " tley believe that her Majesty's Govere kliew ireitam ditlimlty to contend with—for all who iud e , e d a n i d , moat be aware that that difficulty was and th ough : aPPelline. character, but what they felt creased fu Wt at that the difficulty had been in denied urfold by the course they adopted. tie able f" t limited area of taxation was objectim i ' °r all k n Ir e l and a new that the evils of the poor-law in 1141104 all"so from the great area of taxation, which th e eases bed to clearances or evictions. Some tni or , p r esent unions consisted of 51,000 acres, and the alth ou f litlruth i n t h e county C l are, was 12,000, gh i actes e . was well kn own t h ey never e xceeded 2,000 1 or his ei ° 'ie L e,t o r d Own part, he believed the Bill of the oule b a would do no good whatever, and that it sto o d un vouch better to leave matters even as they th e i sinb e i lev the present law. He would impress upon load .e L t ore' e t e herefore, that his measure was totally that `, 7 ( Pla te u)(//3° persons t the evil. The Noble Lord stated rd j f , ons were receiving relief last July. Rite'UN RUSSELL—Seventy thousand persons, :=ir families f atnilis titi tHEßl; ev B. But f a c t th ell, 70,000 persons, with their as, that 60 great IVO the dirt. culty now, particularly in the distressed districts, to as certain who was able• bodied and who was infirm, that the returns from tihicli the Noble Lord took those num bers could not be depend: d on. Mr. H. GRATTAN thought the measure was not positively bad or positively good, and certainly the Noble Lord 1 inaself did not expect it was such a one as to take Ireland out of all her difficulties. Tine poor-law in Ire land had totally failed; that was clear a-cording to the evidence of one of the Commissioners examined before a Committee of the House. They talked of emigration, but did history ever present such a spectacle as lour mil lion acres of land not cultivated, and yet the people leaving it for want cf employment? The Hon. Gentle-- man then went into a detailed account of deaths by starvation, and proceeded to state that, although a mil lion of mooey was collected every week in this country, yet these things were suffered to exist in an integral portion of the empire. Were they Christians, or men, he asked, who looked on such things with apathy? Such a calamity may be a misfortune to Ireland, but it was a disgrace to England. In London they would find absentees who cerrie d away two three, and four millions of money from their pauperised tenants, anti yet the people were dying of starvation. They might talk of poor-laws, and of a Rate in Aid Bill, but the question they should ask themselves was. whether Ireland was really united to England or not? He (Mr. Grattan) proposed in 1826 that the absentees should be taxed; and why, he would ask, were they not taxed now, seeing that these same men were the cause of all the difficulties which beset the land? What was the sort of legislation attempted now? He was glad to see the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth come back to the House, for he believed he had c nirage to plan a remedy and to carry it into execution.—(Hear, hear.) Let them send back the Irish landlords to cultivate their lands ar.d do their duty to their country. No, they would not do so, because they knew the advantages they derived from their residence; but there was a Divine and just Providence punishing them now for their misdeeds and misgovernment, and the misfor tunes they created were now coming back and falling on their shoulders. He had received a letter from a lady a few days ago, connected with a highly -respectable family, in which it was stated that the family property on which her jointure was charged had gone to ruin; that it was, therefore, unable to pay her, and she was, in consequence, reduced to a state of starvation. Then, with regard to the plan of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, was it to be similar to that in famous course pursued in the time of James the First, when the unfortunate inhabitants of an entire province were driven out of their properties with the cry of "To hell, or to Connaught?" What was to be their religion? Who who were they to be, and of what nation com posed? If the Right Hon. Gentleman wished to get some information of the manner in which plantations in for mer days were carried on, be might go to the theatre, and the performance of the White Horse of the Peppers would enlighten him. His Honourable Friend the Member for Montrose was unwilling that more grants should be made to Ireland. He was like others of the petticoat gentry, who had no hearts and no breeches pockets.—(Laughter) But the Irish people wanted not the benevolence of England; but justice. They wanted back their landlords; but this was refused, and hence all the misery with which this country was inflicted. To show the condition to which things were reduced, he might mention, that in one case he knew of an estate which cost some years ago 89,0001., and yet it would now be sold for 25,0001. He would ask the Noble Lord at the head of the Government, whether the Lord- Lieutenant of Ireland had not come over lately to urge upon him the necessity of having rotatory Parliaments? The Noble Lord shook his head, and he was sorry for it; but the fact was, they preferred persecuting an indivi dual, as in the case of Mr. Duffy, to the bringing forward of any measure which might benefit the country. In his (Mr. Grattan's) part of the country they were inundated by beggars from the east and west, who threatened by their poverty to swamp whole districts. The deprecia tion of landed estates was, in cons( quence, really fright ful, and instances had occurred to his own knowledge which would show, more than anything he could say, the condition of the country. In the county of Monaghan. a property, which in 1845 was worth 1,000/., came down in 1847 to 7001., in 1848 to 600/., and in January 1849, to 5661., or more than one-half its original value. In the county of Longford, a property in 11845, worth 1,5001. a year, came down in 1846 to 1,2001, in 1847 to 1,000/, and in 1848 to 8001. a year. In Cavan, another worth in 1845, 1,170/. a year, fell in 1846 to 9401., in 1847 to 6001., in 1848 to 5001, and in the present year to 4001. a year.—(Hear, hear.) Let the Noble Lord not go to sleep—(Laughter)—the Noble was napping; but let him listen to these statements and tremble.—(Laughter.) He knew of instances where gentlemen in the province of Leinster taxed themselves voluntarily to an amount ef 1 ls. in the pound, in order, if possible, to relieve the country from the frightful calamity which pressed upon her. He asked tor some great comprehensive measure, that might unite the common interests of the empire. Sir R. PEEL—I am exceedingly sorry at having heard the speech of the Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear, hear.) lam exceedingly sorry that it was my misfortune to have been present during that speech. lam most un willing that any impediment should be thrown in the way of the way of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Solicitor. General bringing forward what I believe to be a measure of the deepest importance to the welfare of Ireland—viz., a measure for facilitating the disposel of encumbered estates in Ireland—(Bear, hear)—other wise I think the House would permit me to have some opportunity, tefore these Irish debates close, of rectify big some great misconceptions which have taken place with respect to the suggestions which I recently offered —suggestions which I offered in no spirit of party feeling —(Cheers)—from no wish to embarrass In r 111-,jesty's Government—(Hear) —suggestions which I offered from the deepest sympathy with the suffering condition of Ireland, and from an earnest hope of contributing some thing to ameliorate her condition.—(Cheers.) Of all the misconceptions which have taken place, however, the only one which I shall now notice is the one which the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Grattan) has fallen into—a mis conception of the utmost importance—which is calcu lated to excite the deepest feelings in Ireland—which it is impossible for me to listen to and remain silent, for fear an inference might be drawn that, having been pre sent, and having heard it, and remained silent, I acqui esced for one moment in the justice of it.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman seems to suppose that I made some proposition, in a sectarian spirit, for the purpose of depressing the Roman Catholics and driving them out of their present holdings, with the view of substi tuting a Protestant population. Now, Sir, the very last thing that would enter my mind would be to injure the Roman Catholics by substituting a Protestant population in their stead.—(Hear, hear.) My object was to elevate the Roman Catholics, to im prove their condition, and not to gain any paltry ad vantage by introducing in their place the members of any other faith.—(Cheers.) When did the Hon. Gen tl in hear Iron] me the proposition that, in case there should be a redistribution of property, the Protestants should have the advantage? Was I not aware that the man Catholics had a large amount of capital which found no vent in the purchase of landed property? Did he think I was not aware that it was stated by the Cona• miseion over which Lord Devon presided that one great evil in Ireland was, that there was a large amount of accumulated property in trace and commerce which found no opportunity of investment in land? Does the Hon. Gen tleman suppose that, in case of facilities being granted for the purchase of land in Ireland, I wished to exclude the Ronan Catholic merchants of Cork and Waterford from having an opportunity of making an investment which they cannot now make on account of the barba rous tenure of land? The Hon. Gentleman says I wish to drive the noblemen and landed gentry out of Ire land. Mr. GRATTAN—You said so. Sir R. PEEL—No, Sir, I said no such thing. I wish to drive out no man; I wish to do no violence to the rights of property.—(Loud cheers.) But, what I say is, that if there are nominal proprietors who have no real interest in the land, who derive small incomes from it that are frittered away, not in the improvement of the land, but in law expenses in Dublin; that if I can give them facilities for rescuing themselves from their em barrassed condition, and transferring their estates to others who will perform the duties incumbent upon those who hold land, I am not injuring them; I an, in fact, doing them a benefit instead of an injury, and I am at the same time conferring an advantage upon the country, by enabling men with new capital and new hopes, new feelings and new aspirations with respect to its applica tion, to occupy, to the extent which they can occupy, consistently with the maintenance of the rights of pro perty, the encumbered and vacated soil. Injure the Roman Catholic peasantry by the measure I proposed ! Why, Sir, did I not hear the other night the Chancellor of the Exchequer say that, after four successive years of famine, in one union 15,000 persons were driven from their homes helpless and friendless ? Is that a state of things which the Honourable Gentleman would wish to retain ? I ask now if there is in Algiers or in the Punjaub after your successful military operations, or in any other portion of the civilized or barbarized world— will you show me a country, I ask, in which 15,000 people have been driven helpless and homeless from their houses, and exposed to the inclemency of the weather ?—(Hear, hear.) And yet here is one union in which that has taken place. I eon few! that ever since I heard it I have dwelt upon it in the hope of hearing that it was untrue. Just consider for a moment what is the case—that the strength of the people having been diminished by four successive of penury and p rivation, there should be, not in ya ten,er ears of not twenty, but in one . union, 15,000 human beings driven out by evictions, e eectments, and legal processes di H I ear, mar.) suggestions my main object was to When I offered my from their houses, helpless and filen es . people of England the pre lace. I aft afraid that after expend. e e great expenditure jusiwhich hev owhich h k t m h ei e tgi t i n t, n s r d u e s g m g o a l i ad her difficulties, they might be my object was to re moveing 9,000,0(10/ or 10,0.0(h1,0t0h0e/. tiinhvvreasiciueigngtoleroeleatieldinfprloatine the magnitude of the su i d ec abeve all—for I cared not their prejudices; about my plan or House of Commons that, no . rest in point of justice upon p s t the x . niary cousidera• 1 as in point of pecu and policy, as wee pen assure, my sug'e twithstandinP;etts tho condition of Ireland, in it was your other consideration to s i t n i° te ri—t : that, so far as English be subordinate—(Hear, hear) respecttLion, to atoppwlyh c o h u s b e l e v l i e e u s r v lel t e a. o r e l very I t the navigation -laws future, there is no questionh— "it in point of import men are concernoi, looking to the the nor any other—that approac.des of the s that if I can, con acee.—(Cheers ) What I said encuuabrancers upon the estates, fact sistently with justice to the noteiwnaaliptraotpertiehteortre s aud who will their land to others who have the m e n a e n w , hopes, I shall enter upon it with new views and awnhsferaroef on account of the encumbered position o but not only benefit these who are in this..miserfabthleeicronedsittaitoens And the existing, legal difficulties as to their transfer, I may possibly lay the foundation—not for immediate improvement—that I never contemplated--but the foun dation ultimately of a better order of things.—(Hear, hear.) After careful re flection I retain my deliberate conviction that all your other measures, the rate in aid, the alteration of the poor laws, the advance of money for railways, will all do posi'ively nothing, unless you can remedy that which I believe to be the great social evil of Ireland—the difficulty of effecting the transfer of land to the possession of those who are competent to discharge those duties which the possession of land involves. When I spoke of the settlement of Ulster I knew perfectly well the construction that would be placed upon the re ference. I knew perfectly well there would be persons who would say that I was proposing in the 19th cen tury that which might have been tolerable in the 17th. I knew it would be asked, " What do's he propose to do? Does he propose to drive the Roman Catholic in habitants to Connaught or to hell?" Nut to Connaught, certainly, for that is the district with which I proposed to deal; end as to the other, it is the last I should in tend.—(Hear.) I said that I was aware that it was 4 fatal blot upon the plan of James I.; that it made reit gious distinetions—that it gave religious preferences — that it desired to expel the Roman Catholic inhabitants for the purpose of introducing others upon whose alle giance there was a greater claim. I said this for the purpose of preventing the possibility of my thing sub jected to the charge which after three weeks has been preferred, that it was my object to expel the Roman Catholics. I have no sush object.—(Cheers) What I wished was, by creating a demand fur labour, to give the Roman Catholic percent an opportunity of maintaining himself in independence, My object was to secure to the Roman Catholic labourer, if possible, 8d„ or perhaps Is. a day—for that must be the foundation for all improvement in Ireland.—(Bear, hear.) I never believed the doctrine by which some have attempted to relieve themselves of the obligations belonging to them, that there is any inherent inability or indisposition to work on the part of the Irishlabourer. —(Hear hear.) I ask any English gentleman, who has met an Irish labourer on the road, and has entered into conversation with him, as I make a habit of doing when ever I meet otie, whether he has not left him with an admiration of his acuteness and his natural politeness, and with an impression that nature never intended him fur a serf?—(Loud cheers.) It is sometimes supposed here, that the Irish peasants are a turbulent class of men, whom no law can restrain, and no cultivation im prove; but I ask those who have seen them in the coun ties of England, whether it is possible to see men more obedient to the law, more patient and forbearing under much provocation, more industrious, more desirous to remit small sums to their friends out of the proceeds of their severe labour, for the purpose of paying their rents or keeping their families out of the poor-house? I therefore repudiate the doctrine that there is some inhe rent slothfulness or inactivity or want of enterprise in the Irish peasantry. At the moment when the Hon. Member (Mr. Grattan) was charging me with a desire to expel the Mali landlords and introduce English ones, I was engaged in reading a letter I had received—one of many hundreds I am receiving every day—which gives an account of an English company, their applica tion of capital to Irish property, and the consequences of it. It is an account of the proceedings of the Dra per's Company, who are entitled to a large estates in Ire land under the settlement of James The Drapers' Company proceeded for a long time in giving a lease constantly renewable to a single family. In 1817, how ever, the lease fell out and the company refused to renew it to the Rowley family, the lessees. This company of English merchants and tradesmen residing in London, with no intimate knowledge of Ireland, but influenced by the spirit of Englishmen, and by the sense of justice of Englishmen, determined to make an inquiry about their property. The state in which they found it is de scribed in the first report of a deputation which they sent over to Ireland in 1817—: " ' The bulk of the holdings would be inconsiderable in point of quantity, even if entire, but when subdivided are very small. There is a cabin and sometimes two on each holding and subdivision of holding. These cabins are mere mud huts, covered sometimes with straw, at other times with reeds, or swards, and are but rarely water. tight. The natural soil is the floor. Sometimes there is a hole in the roof to serve for a chimney, at other times the door serves as the channel for the exit of the smoke, and generally, but not universally, there is a partition between that part which is devoted to the use of the family and that part which is applied to the use of the cow, the horse, the goat, or the pig.' And their course of husbandry is thus described They grew nothing but oats, potatoes, and flax, and the course in which they follow each other teems rather to be accidental than regular ; the same piece of land is frequently sown two years suc. cessively nth oats. The small quantity of manure which is made upon the farm is applied to the potato crop; fellows are never made. The land is sometimes said to be laid down in grass, but no grass seeds of any sort are ever sown. None of the leases contain any covenants or stipulations as to the course of crops or cultivation of the land; in every respect every lessee is as much at liberty thereon as if he was the owner of the fee. It would not be literally true to say that there is not a hedge or a tree upon the estate, but there are so few that no advantage can be derived from them.' Such was the condition of the Drapers' estate in 1817. 'The comp any, however, were not discouraged. They went to work with the zeal, energy, and perseverance, honesty of intention, and singleness of purpose, the characteristic qualities of the British merchant ; and such has been the success of their labours, that not a trace remains of the condition of the estate as described in the above report. Comfortable, neat, and substantial farmhouses and cottages, with suitable offices, have been substi• tuted for the smoky cabins. Thu farms have been enlarged and fenced, an improved system of agriculture has been introduced, the subdivisions of farms prohibited, leases have been made on the most approved plan of English farm leases, with covenants for making and maintaining improvements, and for enforcing a proper rotation of crops, and these covenants have been rigidly enforced. Wild and previously impenetra ble districts have been opened by judiciously formed roads, extensive plantations of timber, as well as orna mental trees, have been m ide, and are now in a flourish ing state. Moneymore, the principal village on the estate, has risen from a poor hamlet into a prosperous town." Did this company, however, proceed in a sectarian spirit ? Did these Protestants deeply attached, no doubt, to their own religious views—neglect the fair claims of those who differed from them? No.— " A handsome church and Presbyterian meeting house, have been built in it at the sole expense of the com pany, and liberal contributions made for the improve ment of the Roman Catholic chapel, and an annual salary is paid by the company to each minister of those respective places of worship. There has been also built in the town by the company an excellent and now much frtquented hotel; and the trade in it has increased so much as to require the establishment of a branch from one of the Belfast banks." The example thus set by the Drapers' Company has been followed, I believe, by the Fishmongers' and other companies. I confess that I look to great advaneiges arising from the introduction of new capital and new views into Ireland ; and my firm conviction is that the relation of the Roman Catholic to the soil will be greatly improved thereby. As I happened to be reading the letter from which I have just read an extract to the House when the Lion. Gentleman attributed to me those views, with respect to the banishment of the Roman Catholic population, I could not resist the temptation of replying to the Hon. Gentleman and rectifying his mis conception. I trust I have now satisfied the house that it would be my last object to injure the Roman Catho lics.—(Hear, hear.) As lam unwilling to prevent the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (the Solicitor-General) from stating the views of the Government with respect to the measure they contemplate, I shall not attempt to notice any other misconceptions ; but I could not be present and hear this misconception without removing what, it justifiable, must have created, among the great mass of the population of Ireland, a most unavourable and unjust impression. —(Cheers.) Mr. HENRY GRATTAN said that the Right Hon. Baronet was totally mistaken. Ile had made no such charge as he seemed to imagine, but he said he bsdeved that ultimately that would be the effect if his proposi tions were carried out. Mr. J. O'CONNELL said that he would take upon himself to assure the Right Hen. Baronet that the opi nion of the people of Ireland generally was favourable to the plan he had propounded, and that no improper motives were attributed to him. Mr. 'FLAHERTY said his constituents were highly pleased with the plan of the Right Hon. Baronet, and on their behalf he begged to thank him. He com plained bitterly of the do-nothing policy of the present Government, and seeing no prospect of their introducing any measures beneficial to Ireland, he had left their side of the House altogether and taken his seat on the oppo site benches.—(A laugh.) Ilea as, however, no party man, but would support good measures from whatever party they originated. Mr. BRIGHT said there was no doubt this Govern ment and other Governments bad been to blame for the manner in which they had acted towards Ireland. They bad adopted coercive instead of useful measures, but still he thought that Irish Members were to blame themselves, as they had not only never brought for ward any useful measure for Ireland, but were always disagreeing amongst themselves as to what measures were useful. Lord JOHN RUSSELL submitted to the House that the proper course would be to allow him to bring in his Bill, and then to hear the Solicitor-General explain the provisions of the Bill which Government meant to bring forward with reference to the sale of encumbered estates in Ireland.—(Dear, hear.) Sir H. W. BARRON said that he rose to repudiate the charge which had been made by the Hon. Member for Manchester (Mc. Bright) against the Irish Mem bers.—(Hear, hear.) When the Hon. Member talked about divisions among the Irish Members, he (Sir %V. Barron) should like to ask him when English Members agreed upon great public questions?—(Hear, hear.) He had only to look to the bench below him (the Mi• n i s t er i a l), were the Right Honourable M tuber the Secretary for the Admiralty (Mr. Ward) and the Noble Lord at the head of the Government agreed on the subject of the Irish Church and the appropriation clause?—(Loud cries of" Hear, hear.") Looking to the opposite side, he would ask, did the Hon. Mc mber (Mr. Disraeli) and the Right Hon. Baronet who was seated beside him (Sir Robert Peel), did these gentlemen agree upon the great question of free trade which so agitated the country.—(Laughter, and cries of " Hear, hear.") among witha d t the the I t might suit newsp a p er scribblers to rin g th e c h a n ges a bout the topiche Manchester school—(Hear, hear)—but he denied th a t the Iris as b t e o s b e were expected among public men questions, than Me, m independently to that House. H e knewdivisiens was a f favourite o u the rit Irish one Members, gentlemen w ho were return ed M lf•sufficiency among the gentlemen was a great deal o Cries of "Linr, of the Manohoter N Hon i M e ember for would tell the anchester, that there hear")—and he would add, also, that they exhibited too much of vanity, and he would tell the Hon. Member that Ireland had suffered great misery from the effects of the policy which the Manchester school had succeeded in carrying out.—(Cri , s of " Hear" fr ens the Opposition.) Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. ENCUMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND) BILL. The SOLICITOR GENERAL rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill further to facilitate the sale of encum bered estates in Ireland. To make the plea which her Majesty's Government proposed intelligible it was ne cessaty that he should recall to the recollection of the House what they had endeavoured to do by the Encum bered Estates Bill of last session, and to describe the manner of carrying it into effect. The modes by which it was intended to facilitate the sale of encumbered es tates were embodied in a few general and distinct provi sions of that Bill. One of these was to proceed by sale, under the authority of the Court of Chancery. Another was to proceed by sale, not under the authority of the Court of Chancery, but so that the purchase money should be paid into the Court of Chancery, and distributed among the parties who were entitled to the estate, having an interest either as encum brancers or as owners. Both provisions had proved wholly ineffectual up to the present time.—(Hear, hear.) Totally independent of the measure itself, there were peculiar circumstances connected with Ireland, which made it very difficult for any measure to succeed. The House would bear in mind that it was of course essential to the success of any plan that the class of purchasers should exist; and he believed there was very great diffi culty in disposing of land in the circumstances which had latterly existed in Ireland. But undoubtedly there were difficulties in regard to the provisions of the Bill which created great impediments to its effectual operation. With respect to the sale which had been proposed to be carried on out of court, it was then thought that the most efficient plan would be to sell the estate at once, and to have any dispute which might arise settled inde pendently of the question of money. But, as it was ne cessary to give an absolutely indefeasible title, a series of notices, consents, and registrations was required; and, further, the estate must be sold for its full value. The forms of proceeding involved much expense, and the object of the present measure was to obviate those difficulties by resorting which had been esortingto acours s e ug w ge h s i t c ed hwhays un d ou btedly not and which had been before the Government several fora consi derable period; but they thought it best to create a com mission, who should be able to p e rform the functions which had been performed up to the present time by the Court of Chancery, who should be unfettered by the gentlemen, rules of procedure which now existed—(Hear, hear) — and who should also be-able to perform their duties without the expense arising from fees, and from the antiquated system which could not bo immediately re moved from that Court. The present proposal was not without precedent; and there was one in a case which was closely allied, and which seemed to have suc ceeded; he meant the West India Commission, appoint ed to distribute 20,000,000 of money among the owners of West India estates. They had to inquire who were the parties owners of estates, because the compensation was to be given to owners and inctunbrancers according to their priority. Tbey performed their functions not only without blame, but with the greatest possible praise, at very little expense, with very few appeals, and to the general satisfaction of those persons whose rights they had to adjudicate upon, and of the public at large.— (Hear, hear.) It was proposed, therefore, to appoint a Commission of three paid commissioners with a secretary; that those commissioners should follow the same course with the West India Commission ; that was, should themselves frame a set of rules for their guidance, to be submitted to the Privy Council of Ireland, and, when sanctioned by it, to have the same force as if they had been enacted on the part of Parliament ; that the Com mission should have power from time to time to alter and vary those rules First, it was proposed to lay a restriction on the Commissioners that they should not frame rules by which any fees should be levied. It was further proposed that the Commission should deal with applications which might be made to it within three years from its appointment ; though continue it wouldfor two y probablyears more. be t wasnecessary proposed t h a t to should invest the Commissioners w i t h all the p ower s of the Court of Chancery in respect to the p roduction of evi dence. Where application was made by the owner or incumbrancer of an estate they . would be empowered, having made such preliminary inquiry as they might think proper, to proceed to a sale of the property in such manner end in sech portions as they might judge best. With respect to the conveyance, it was proposed that the form of the schedule should be such as was usual in the conveyance of Crown lands, which, being executed by the Commissioners, should vest the property in the purchaser and give a title good against all chat- Is was proposed also that the l s e a n m g e e. p — ow ( H e resaor,f putting a purchaser in possession should be given as if a writ of possession were ex: cuted. It would not be necessary for him to bring writs of eject ment, so that he should be put in possession of the land at as early a period as possible, and with as simple a title as possible, and wi th a title not to be impeached. It was proposed that the mone y should b_e into the e among the parties entitle d to a share. Questions might Bank of Ireland; that it should be divided at once be raised as to the perso ns entitled to the p roperty; and it would be for the Commissi oners to determine the rights of parties. Theoretically, though scarcely practically, it might happen that the Commissioners would have to dispose of the land of some person who was not pre sent, and of whom they knew nothing. Any difficulty on that score would be prevented by careful examination on the part of the Commissioners. Though there were few good marketable tithes in Ireland, all parties having interests w ould be ascertained, and the Commissioners would be able to adjudicate so as not to dispose of the property of any person whom they had not heard. lie said so with the greater confidence, be cause in the West India Commission, by which large estates bad been disposed of, and before which numbers of claims had been discussed, he believed there aas not a single instance in which parties had complained that persens having a title had been overlooked, or that money had been paid t o any one to w hi c h h e was not entitled. If the case, h owever, should occur in the pre sent instance, Parlia men t m i g h t d ea l w i t h it ; but it seemed advisable to exc l u d e any prov i s i on on t he sub ject from a Bill intended to carry out measures which were generally thought essential to the regeneration of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) It was necessary also that the Commissioners should have power to send cases for the opinion of a court of law. Where the Court of Chan cery had made any decree or perfected any operation, the Commissioners should hold themselves bound by such decree, and should have power to complete the in quiries so originated. There must be a species of con current jurisdiction between the Commissioners and the Court of Chancery. It was necessary to determine as to which should have the priority for the purposes of the Bill If they created a special tribunal, and gave it certain high functions for those purposes, they could not render its jurisdiction effectual without vesting in it all the functions and powers necessary to the attainment of the object in view. Not only were the Commissioners not to he prevented from dealing with cases pending before the Court of Chancery, but in all cases where a decree of sale had been made by the Court of Chancery and not carried into effect, they should carry it into effect. The Commissioners would never act without application being made to them. When application was made to them they would have a paramount jurisdiction, proceedings in the Court of Chancery would be stayed, and it was by the Commissioners that sales would be c irried into effect. An appeal would be given from the Commissioners, fol lowing the precedent of the West India Commission, to a Judicial Committee of the Irish Privy Council, to be selected by the Lord-Lieutenant. It was proposed to place a restriction on appeals, giving the Commissioners power to decide whether the case was one in which an appeal ought to be taken. These were the general pro visions and objects of the Bill. It was desirable that titles hereafter in Ireland should be put on such a foot ing as to prevent them from getting into the same state r of complication as now existed. To make provisionfe that purpose formed no part of the object o f yet have generally a beneficial effect. Every acre of land sold under this commission wo uld be era Bill, which, though temporary in its op the present n ,would w ould indeed be a great misfortune if, after the held by a title which could not be questioned. • naptto e the same state of y ea rs, estates should fall again lapse of some 30 or 40 confusion as now existed, with onl y this difference, that the incumbrances might be of 30 or 40 years instead of 60. It was the wish of the G overnment to make a change in the system of judgments, so as to prevent them from becoming a permanent charge on the land. At present, when money was raised upon property in Ireland, the judgments w ere registered and created a general incumbrance on the estate. That evil would be remedied by an enactment which, however, would not have a retrospective effect. The Govern. ment had also considered whether it would not be pos. sible to introduce an improved system of registration in Ireland. That question was still under consideration, but the measure relating to it was not sufficiently ma tured to allow of its introduction into the House in the course of the present session; besides, as the Commission on registration was about to make its report, it might be desirable to wait until that document should be before the House. The feeling of Government, however, was that it was not enough to liberate the land of Ireland from incumbrances, but that it was necessary, also, to take advantage of its freed state to prevent it being again reduced to its former condition. The great object, however, which the Government, and, he believed, the Right Hon. Baronet, who had suggested a measure of this description, had in view was to afford an oppor tunity for the investment of capital which would result in the employment of labour.—(" Hear, hear," from Sir Robert Peel.) A wide discretion must necessarily be invested in the Commissioners ; they must have the power of deciding against the sale of m etol a t u ijot e in , s t s bi l fe l y :u itg l i d ) en t l h aa e dde c o i pt r ot c i u ot m hn : Tho ta f n ft, c )hr - a s tti o i ac f to t seem pu h ru e sr c ep a .o s s e ec: an estate, even though application for that purpose were en thn e t o t ho t ot h thi e ge m hr hind, otieet itohlisymwigohutld be hive m a p d o e w e b r y to pa s r e t l i l eg an il e i t s e t r a e te st o cd n , appli cation ii-t should appear that the nominal landlord was unable to perform the duties which properly attached to the owner of land.--(" Hear," from Sir R. Peel.) It was by no means certain that the success of the measure which he was recommending for the adoption of the House was beyond all doubt. 'lt was certain, that unless a class of persons could be found disposed to invest capital in Ireland, it was impos sible that any measure for facilitating the sale of estates could bo productive of benefit. Some persons might say of the present measure, as was said of the Incumbered Estates Bill last session, that it would be inoperative, and that no sales would be effected under it; whilst others might allege that it would deluge the market with land, and thereby greatly depreciate the value of that description of property, to the injury of all classes of the community. The latter evil would doubt less be guarded against by the good sense of the Com missioners: and as to the other objection, that no tales would take place under the Bill, there appeared to be reasonable ground for hoping that a large quantity of land would be brought into the market and disposed of judiciously. Many persons doubtless would he of opinion that this measure wont a great deal too tar; they woud be shocked by the appointment of a Commission, even for a short period, to supersede to some extent the functions of the Court of Chancery, and to dispose in a somewhat arbitrary manner of the property of various persons. He could only say to these psraons that the proceeding was justified by the emergency.—(Hoar, hear.) The only mode of providing employment for the people of Ireland was by enabling a moneyed class to obtain posses sion of the land, and the only way in which that object could be effected was that proposed by the Bill, unless, indeed, the House should think proper to adopt a stronger measure and give the Commissioners power to deal with estates as the Enclosure Commissioners dis posed of waste lends. He had now stated the provisions of the Bill as briefly as he was able to do.—([-Isar, hear.) It would be his duty subsequently to introduce a short Bill which would contribute to the end which this measure was intended to achieve. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman concluded with moving for leave to bang in the Bill.—(Che. rs.) Mr. STUART said, they wero all agreed as to the propriety of affording every facility for the sale of estates in Ireland incumbered so that they were of no use to the parties interested in them; but they would not proceed far in their work of a (opting measures for that purpose before they found that their labour was one of a very difficult nature. The mensure of last year had turned out a total failure, not owing to the circumstances of the times, but because it was a measure of complicated enactments on a difficult subject; not one of which was understood by Hon. Members who so earnestly called on the House to give it their support.—(Bear, hear.) Be fore such a measure should have passed they ought to have properly understood the difficulties they had to meet; and what he should have wished to have heard from his Hon. and Learned Friend on that occasion, and which he bad not heard, was a statement which would have enabled the House to comprehend what those diffi culties were with which they had to deal, He appre hended the principal difficulty was, that from the number of individuals having an interest in those incumbered estates, with which they were unwilling to part, they could not proceed to sell them without doing violence to the rights of somebody.—(Loud cries of " Hear ' hear.") They heard the other night, that in a b ill filed in refer. ence to one of them in Chancery, there was no less than 43 defendants, and that was what caused the difficulty. It was not an easy thing to tell the mortgagee) who was ninth or tenth on the list, that they would put up his property for sale whether he would or not, and hence the injury to private rights. It was said they had a prece dent in the Commission which was appointed to distri bute the grant to the West India planters, as compensa tion for the abolition of slavery. But that was no pre cedent at all. Here it was not a distribution of money, it was an interference with other people's rights, and a sale of their lands whether they would or not; and, at all events, the Commission referred to, when a disputed case did come before it, instantly placed the money in Chancery, until it was decided who had the proper claim to it. That .ought to be done in the present case. So far as he understood the measure, he thought it would meet with no better success than did the measure of last year.—(Hear.) Mr. KEOG a said, as he had been in the habit of accusing the Government for not bringing forward mea sures for Ireland of a beneficial nature, he considered he ought at the earliest moment state, that he felt a step had now been taken in the right direction in the measure which had just been detailed to the House. — (Cheers.) He had some understanding as to the object of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite in bring ing forward the measure; and he thought his object a good and great one, it being to relieve Ireland from the greatest infliction which could oppress any country, the difficult complicated, expensive, interminable litig ation of the ' Court of Chancery.—(Cheers.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had preceded him had said that it was the number of incumbrances of Irish estates which caused the present untoward state of things, but that he denied. It was not the number of incum brancest, but it was the expensive procrastinating tri bunal to which the investigation of those incumbrances were submitted, which caused the evil.—(Hear, hear.) He therefore highly approved of the plan of the Govern ment, which proposed at once to liberate the land. It was the land of Ireland out of which they were to supply labour to the people of Ireland. It was in conse quence of that land being bound up and rendered use less that so much poverty and distress now prevailed in Ireland ; and, as he understood the proposition of the Government, it was to emancipate that land from the trammels in which it was at present held, and render it beneficial for the people of that country.—(Cheers.) That was to be done in the speediest way, though with a due regard to the interests of the parties at present con nected with it; and while the House never would wil lingly perpetrate an aes of injustice,:yet they had to deal with a serious case—with a country on the verge of ruin; and as never yet was any serious reforms effected with out some one suffering more or less, they ought not to withhold their sanction to such a measure as the present, even though some parties might suffer by in —(lean) Mr. WOOD said the failure of the measure of last session was evidently owing to the circumstances in which Ireland was at the time placed, for who could have embarked their capital in Ireland at a time when the general social condition of that country was in the most disorgania d state, and when even, at the present time, they were obliged to keep upwards of 3U,000 troops in the country for the preservation of the peace. There was still a danger that the Commissioners might find a difficulty in acting so as to carry out the spirit of the Act, as he understood they were not to attempt to effect any sale until application was ma le to them by the parties interested. He thought that it would be well to wait for some time to see what the result of this Commission would be, as he anticipated it would obviate many of the difficulties and delays which at present attend the sale of property in the Court of Cancery. He thought that the two important facts to which the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) had some time since alluded in his speech, were very worthy of the consideration of the House, the first of which had been also adverted to by the late Member for Kinsale (Mr. Watson), relative to the duties and expenses of re ceivers of the Court of Chancery in Ireland, and the other which had been fully proved by Captain Hamilton, relative to the certainty of 27,000 persons, who reside on encumbered estates, falling on the unions. He (Cap tain Hamilton) said that if the landowners had capital to employ those persons, that there would be no requisition whatever for poor-rates. He (Mr. P. Wood) thought that it would be most judicious to accelerate, by every possible means, such a plan as that before them, to in vest this property in the hands of capitalists, and to give employment to those labourers who were at present on the land.—(Hear, bear.) He believed that this measure would not tend to injure any party; but would do much service to that country gene rally; yet he should say that if any party were in terfered with, it would be in a very trifling degree, and that such a case was not unprecedented, as could be seen by referring to the 20,000,0001. given to the West India proprietors, or in the case of railway property, when parties were obliged, by an Act of that House, to sell part of their estate. Ile also rejoiced that the benefits to be conferred on Ireland would not be confined to the present Bill, but that a Bill for the registration of pro perty would be introduced next session ; because he felt assured that it was owing to a want of title that much of the difficulty of selling land in Ireland was to be attri buted, and hoped that such a Bill would b also e intro duced for England, as there was a very great necessity for it. He considered that it would be well that this Commission would have a power to refer to the Court of Chancery, so that the estates in that Court might be improved, as the mortgagees generally do not care for the improvement of the property from which they derive their money, provided they get it.—(Laughter.) He should add chat he felt assured, notwithstanding what bad been said against gentlemen of the legal profession, that those gentlemen were most anxious for such a mea sure as that then before them, as being calculated to im prove the condition of that couutry.—(Hear, hear.) Sir R. PEEL said he could assure the lion. and Learned Gentleman who had just sat down that he, for one, never meant to insinuate that the body to which he belonged were unwilling to cos operate in reforms of the law. He himself was concerned in attempts at improv ing the law by the consolidation of the criminal law, and other measures which had been brought fur ward of a similar nature, and he was bound to say that in general there was on the part of the legal profession the most Jealous desire to co-operate in the improvement of the law, at whatever pecuniary cost to themselves.—(Bear, hear.) Now, without relinquishing any of the opinions which he expressed on two former occasions, he wished to reserve to himself entire liberty with respect to the details of the measure before him. He could not, how ever, avoid expressing his cordial satisfaction at the course pursued by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Solicitor-General, and at the general purpose and object of the measure which he had introduced.—(Hear.) He believed that the ordinary courts of law were admirably suited for the administering of justice between man and man, when nothing extraordinary occurred. Yet when a great social difficulty had to be contended with, his opinion was that they must step in beyond the limits of their ordinary rules of justice and establish some special tribunal untrammelled by the ordinary technicalities of courts for the purpose of solving these difficulties. Such was the course pursued on more than one recent occasion. But three or four years since, nearly all the counties of South Wales were in a state of insurrection on account of turnpike tolls. There was scarcely one in that House who was not familiar with the Rebecca riots. The Queen's troops were resisted, and it was found necessary to apply a remedy. They sent down a commission of inquiry, and they found it necessary to place these turnpike tolls on a new footing and peace was restored. A new tribunal was established. The Commissioners awarded 701., 601., and in some cases only 101., instead of 1001. These awards were ge nerally acquiesced in, and there were but two appeals from the Special Commission. Well, a few years since, there was also a compulsory commutation of tithes. Tho voluntary commutation did not succeed. The Noble Lord brought in a Bill, the object of which was to in form all parties that if up to the 11th of October, 1838, they made voluntary agreements as to tithes, they might do so ; but, if they failed to do so, then provision was made for compulsory commutation. A; special commis sion was appointed to decide between the parties ; the questions that came before them were very difficult of adjudication, but ho believed that s pecial tribunal b r ad given satisfaction.—(Hear, hear.) There more difficult question when t he y determined w t a o s abolish slavery in the West Indies. Compensation w as to be given to the owners of slaves for everywhsl o a l v a e o , f and 20,000,0001. was to b e distributed. The colonies had different usages. They resolved to meet these difficulties. They found it necessary to depart from the ordinary course of proceeding, and they there fore determined that a commission should be appointed. The lion. and Learned Gentleman the Member for Newark said it was an easy thing to do tbia•il,WlN oi l y PcersarY 19 allot to each owner the amount of money due. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman thought it an easy thing to de termine the value of each slave in Jamaica and Trinidad and to apportion it to the owners. If that was correct, it would be a good answer to the lion. and Learned Gen tleman the Solicitor-General. But these were not the duties of the Commission. They had a most compli cated duty to perform independently of this. They had to investigate and decide upon the Interests of " married women, infants, lunatics, and persons of insane or un sound mind, and all other persons labouring under either legal or natural incapacity, or inability." They were also to lay down rules and regulations which, if ap proved of, were to have the force of law. But, besides this, the slave partook of the real property to a hich ho was attached. Whenever the one was mortgaged the other was mortgaged also. How did that differ from the case before them? Any person having any claim or inte rest in any mortgage judgment, &c., upon any slave or slaves so to be manumitted, should prefer such claim be fore the commission, who were to decide upon it. Such were the duties of the Commissioners, and h e did not see how they differed in the present case. In dealing with this complicated question of landed property he believed unless they appointed a special tribunal—observing all the rights and principles of law and equity, avoiding doing injustce to any man, but unrettered by technical rules—they would not get at the root of the sod,' diffi culties of Ireland.—(Hear.) The gre it and main object was to give a clear, simple, Parliamentary title.—(Bear, hear.) No person would now purchase an estate in Ire land, and with it a loss, as he knew to be the case, and, in addition, perhaps, a duel, for anything the purchaser might know.—(Loud laughter.) If they gave the pur chaser assurance against indefinite charges for poor rate—if they promised that he should not be trou bled by incumbered proprietors, who had nothing but a nominal existence—(Laughter)—if they promised to the new purchaser, who proved that he had capital and that he could repay 4 per cent. interest for ad vances made for improvement, and 2 per cent. as a sinking fund, keeping at the same time a power of seizing the land and selling it if the money was not paid —these three inducements—a simple title, a guarantee against an indefinite poor rate, and a possible share in advances for permanent improvement on the land, would, he thought, offer inducements for the pur chase of land in Ireland which never existed before.— (Hear, hear.) It appeared that many persons were shocked by the invasion of the old property system. ' One fact was better than a thousand arguments. He therefore asked the Honourable and Learned Gentle man (Mr. Stuart) to accompany him in an excursion through the Court of Chancery in Ireland. And he weuld then ask whether, while such a state of things pre vailed, whatever the apparent pecuniary advantages, it was likely that there could be any purchases effected of Irish land. If the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman felt indisposed to follow him in this excursion, perhaps the circumstances—the purchaser's name in the parti cular instance was Mr. John Stuart—(Laughter)— might induce him to listen to the story. He would read Members an abstract of the account he had received, but he had the original letter with him, and should be most willing to show it to any Hon. Gentleman who might desire to see it. The gentleman from whom he derived it mentioned that feeling how careful the House should be in the reception of statements from out of doors, he had not forwarded the like without having previously submitted it to his solicitor, a gentleman well acquainted with the facts, and who had entirely confirmed the accu racy of the statement made. The statement set forth an account of what was called a sale under the Court of Chancery in Ireland. " A receiver was appointed over the estate in 1813. The estate was sold, under a decree of the Court, in 1838. After most tedious proceedings and great costs, it was di:covered that there was a technical defect in the title, and the purchaser was freed from the purchase. The estate was resold in 1843, under an amended decree. The present purchaser (his informant) thought that, after the previous investigation, purchasing under the amended decree, he should be safe.—(A laugh.) He paid his purchase money into court. In June next six years would have elapsed since he paid the money. He was. not in possession —(A laugh)—and would not be for two years more.—(Renewed laughter.) It was discovered, on examination, that the estate was less by 1,200 acres than the quantity stated in the rental; that parts of the property stated to be fee-simple were leasehold, with a power of re-entry and reservation of the royalties. That leases stated to have been made without powers were made with full powers, and were binding and valid. In 1848 it was discovered that several reversionary leases, not set out in the rental, were in existence and also valid. On these objections the Remembrancer decided in favour of the purchaser — that is, that the rule was invalid, and the purchaser thought he was released—and reported to the pur chaser that he should be released from his purchase. The vendors objected to the release. The Barons de cided in their favour, and reversed the decision of the Remembrance". The result had been that the pur chaser had neither received the interest of the purchase money nor the rents of the estate—(Laughter)—so far as to individual wrong." Now look at the social evils:—" All the evicted paupers of adjoining estates had crowded into it. In the course of the proceedings the widow of the vendor became the inheritor of the estate on the death of her youngest son. She died lately of a broken heart, without the common necessaries of life. On her death fresh proceedings had to be taken, news bills filed, new decrees pro nounced, and now we have to discover her heir in Ame rica. That such a system must prove ruinous to all parties, the vendors, the purchaser 3, the mortgagees and the tenants, is evident. The capital I had intended to expend in the improvement of the property will all be spent in law cost, in a fruitless attempt to obtain that which was profess' d to be sold to me. This is not an uncommon case. Two friends of my own purchased two estates the same dey I did, under the courts; Mr. —, at the end of four years, was forced to take what his counsel pronounced was not the title under which he bought; Mr. —, at the end, I believe, of six years, has been freed from his, after most expensive proceed ings, during which, I believe, the tenants have paid no rents, and have, by their lawl: as proceedings, endan gered the peace of the neighbourhood." 'rids was a statement of simple facts, and he would put it to the House whether such facts should be allowed to continue possible—(Hear, hear)—especially when the possibility of their recurrence could be prevented, not only without injury either to the nominal or to the prac tical proprietors of hind in Ireland, hut with the utmost benefit to all parties?—(Hear, hear.) Certain it was in his conviction that unless some distinct remedy was ap plied, and that speedily, the whole of the now solvent property of Ireland would certainly be involved in the same catastrophe with the insolvent property.—(Hear, hear.) He would ask any Hon. Gentleman who still had doubts on the subject to read the conclusive evidence given before the House of Lords by Colonel Gore, of Mayo, and Mr. Martin, of Galway—evidence which manifested the masterly acquaintance with the condition of Ireland which the exact and laborious inquiries of those gentlemen had given them.—(Hear.) For himself, he required no further re examination of the question to induce him to give his hearty support to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman oppoeite,whose whole conduct during his Parmentary career, whose high principles of action, whose well-natured and soundly tempered efforts to re form the laws of his country, were worthy of the great name he bore.—(Cheers.) Mr. BRIGHT could not allow this discussion to close without expressing his opinion on its subject. He had never listened to the deliberations in that House upon any question connected with Ireland, with half the de light which that evening's debate had given him.— (Hoar, hear.) A more beautiful explanation of a mea sure than that given by the Solicitor General of this most excellent Bill, he had never heard in that House or elsewhere.—(Hear, hear.) He could not find the slight est fault with the proposition, either that it went too far or that it did not go tar enough. There were, as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman admitted, other things to be done; but certainly the measure here submitted to the House was one which had begun at the right point, and was proceeding at all events to a considerable extent in the right direction—(Hear, hear)—aud he was satis fied, further, that though some Learned Gentlemen opposite and some other persons connected with the land in Ireland might regard it us a dangerous measure, there was no class in Ireland whose real safety was more con sulted by the Bill than the class of landed proprietors.— (Hear, hear.) For himself, he would say that, did ho not conceive it would conduce as much to their safety, and to the maintenance of their property, as to the safety and maintenance of the property of any other class, it would not have the warm support he was dis posed to giro it.—(Hear, hear.) He was of opinion that nothing could be more fatal than an attempt to maintain the property of any one class as against any other class; while measures based on sound principles, calculated to meet great emergencies, must be, as this measure eminently was, certain to be advantagenus to all classes in the country to which it referred.— (Hear, hear.) He had that night fallen under the displeasure of two Hon. Gentlemen, representatives from Ireland ; he was not about to say that he had nut laid himself open to some of the observations which had been made; but Hon. Gentlemen from Ireland would du him generally this justice, that on all occasions since he had sit in that House, he had almost always spoken, always voted, in favour of those measures which had met the approbation of the Members for Ireland, at all events sitting on that aide of the House—(Hear, hear) —while with respect to this especial measure, gentlemen from Ireland might perhaps recollect that at the close of the last session of Parliament he had made the p recise p roposition now f occ s a i l i o o: submitted to the House by the Solicitor-General.— (Hear, hear.) He had state d on that re of land in anything else was done with this t 9 ° be no appointed, to Ireland, a special tribu nal ough this subject should be refehrreed which the adjudication of all Court of Chancery in Ire qu,eishteieo,nfsremconwnheacttehdewhiathd beard of the condition of Ir:iitnogf effective sueh tri c h e o u e l a d l be y arl t i o am th e e nt, to show appeal unhesitiitingly t e t h e (. Hear, hear.) lie would. done land , he withoutwas he had never exhibited people of sa t t l!e sfie e d sta t b ht l a i st or those who represented them in that House.— whole of his conduct, in a ndou h t o o st f il l i ; He heartily thanked the Government for (Hear, • t l h re a l t and this measure, and hoped they would exhibit as much determination in pressing it through the House, as they had exhibited hear wisdom in concaving it and la} ins it h h e e a a r r d .) any attack mad e u p on bef s o i r r e J l:a l r y li A am L e s n u t.— ha ( d El n ea o r t , the Hon. Member by Irish representatives. The only fierce attack that bad been made that evening was not upon the Hon. Member,-but upon the Bill before the House, and this was by the Hon. and Learned Member for Oxford, who dui minced it has not being sufficiently confiscatory. Mr. J. O'CONNELL said that the Act relative to in cumbered estates which was passed last year had ren dered the expenses of the transfer of landed property in Ireland much greater than they had been under the law 14 it formerly stood, At the same tipe,lt® levet upon his satisfaction at the manner in which the present mea sure had been brought forward. Mr. lIORSMAN also expressed his approbation of the manner in which the Hon. and Learned Solicitor- General had brought forward the present Bill, which he greatly approved of. He must say that if there was any fault to be discovered it was that the Bill stood iso lated, and was in danger of being completely marred in consequence of the inefficiency of the other measure by which it had been preceded. Mr. HENLEY rose to observe that the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth had cited an instance of a transfer of land which had been impeded by a technical difficulty, whereas when the real facts came out the difficulties were, first, that there was a mistake of 1,200 acres in the quantity of land; next, that the pro perty in7tead of being freehold was leasehold ; and thirdly, that when the lease came to be examined it was found to contain some very ugly covenants. And yet, upon the strength of such a case as this, the Court of Exchequer in Ireland was to b set aside as incompetent. Sir R. PEEL stated that he bad not put the case in the way the Hon. Member had imagined. What ho said was that technical difficulties had been raised to the making eandtrgnsfer of the estate in 1838, whengoodwu the s a originally sl sold under the authority of the court, and that those technical difficulties were admitted and received by the court. Whereas the diffimilties which the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire had described were real difficulties, from which the courts of law failed to relieve the purchasers of the estate. Mr. MONSELL had never heard a speech with a greater feeling of disappointment than that of the Noble. Lord in bringing forward his poor•law amendment. Ile had a thousand times rather that the Irish poor- law re mained ai it was tha❑ that it should be thus amended. Mr. BANKES said it was Lord Strafford who first proposed to dispense with the law courts in Ireland, and to appoint a court of commissioners to examine into and adjudicate upon all matters connected with the transfer of land in Ireland. And this was one of the acts for which he was impeached. He (Mr. Berates) was anxious to give every attention to any proposition of the Govern ment on this difficult matter; bat, when he found such uniform supporters of a Liberal Government as the Hon. Member for Cockermouth, and the Hon. and Learned Member for Oxford, pointing out difficulties which oc curred to them in the way of its working, he might be excused if ho doubted whether they could hope for any beneficial result to accrue from this measure.—(Hear.) Sir H. W. BARRON inquired whether the Commis sioners would have the same jurisdiction where proceed ings had commenced in the Court of Exchequer as where they had commenced is the Court of Chancery? The SOLICITOR-GENERAL replied that the equity side of the Exchequer and the Court of Chancery would be excluded in the provisions of the Bill. Leave was then given to introduce the Bill. LEASES (IRELAND). The SOLICITOR•GENiRAL the]; moved for leave to bring in a Bill to enable persons having perpetual and limited interests in land in Ireland to make grants in fee or demises for long terms of years. The object of this Bill was clerly explained is its title. lie proposed to give power to persons having perpetual and limited interests in land to make leases of a portion of their property for terms of 99 years, for building or improve able purposes. As it was desirable that these leases should be all made in a certain form, it would be ne cessary in a few days to introduce another Bill upon the subject. Mr. J. STUART said it was not his intention to op pose the Bill ; but he could see no reason why one prin ciple should be applied to England and Scotland, and another to Ireland. Mr. SADLEIR trusted that the measure which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was about to introduce would be calculated to improve the system of tenant tenure; for nothing would so much add to improved agriculture in Ireland as such a measure. Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. LEAVE OF ABSENCE. On the motion of Sir J. HAMILTON, leave of absence was given to Mr. French for a fortnight, in consequence of the illness of a member of his family. POOR.LAW (IRELAND). —RATE IN AID. Sir W. BARRON hoped this Bill would not be pro ceeded with at that hoar of the night (ten minutes past twelve). Sir G. GREY said that, in compliance with the wishes of several Hon. Members, he consented to post pone the Bill until to-morrow (this day), when it would stand as the first order of the day. ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE (METROPO LITAN DISTRICTS) BILL. On the motion of the AT FORNEY-GENERAL, this Bill was read a second time. To be committed on Friday week. The House then adjourned at a Quarter past Twelve o'clock. THE ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH COMPANY. TO THE EDITOR OF THE TIMES. Sir,—ln your paper of the 14th inst. I find an extract 7rom the Builder, in which an accusation is made against .his company calculated to do very great injury to tho . . undertaking. The Elec'ric Telegraph Company have established a system of no ordinary complication and extent. Their wires stratch from Glasgow on the north to Dorchester on the south, from the cart coast at Yarmouth to the wept at Liverpool. They have brought upwards of 150 towns into instant communication with each other. They have a central office in Lothbury, London, and five branch receiving-houses in various parts of the metropolis ; and from the main station at Intlibury their wires (carried at a gn at cost in iron p . pes under the stre. ts) diverge to every town of importance in tho country. In the metropolis alone they have upwards of sixty persons in their employment, and at each of their country stations they have, independently of messengers, not less than two, and in many cases as many as ten signal clerks, all of them skilled in manipulating and interpreting the telegraph. The wires which they have set up for the use of the public alone are upwards of 9,800 miles in length, and extend over a distance of 2,060 miles, and, exclusive of those running tinder ground and through tunnels or rivers, are stretched on tyl less than 61,800 poste, vary.. ing from 16 feet to 30 feet in height, and of an average square of eight inches, with an expensive apparatus of insulators and winders attached to each. As the most trifling derangement of the wires or ap paratus will stop the communic.ition, it is obvious that the utmost care and watchfulness is requisite to prevent and detect accidents, and when is derangement does oc cur it requires the nicest combination to ascertain the exact point of the mischance, and great ingenuity and outlay to repair it without delay, and in such wise as to maintain tho free passage of the electric current during the operation. Accordingly tho whole distance is divided into dis tricts, each district having a superintendent, and under him several inspectors, and a staff of workmen, battery men, and mechanics, more or less numerous, according to the extent over which he presides. If these things be considered in conjunction with the central staff of engineers and secretaries in London, the continual replacement and renewal of instruments conse quent upon improvements in their mechanism, or their deterioration from wear and tear, accidi•nt or neglect ; the immense quantity of stores always on hand to meet contingencies, the great consumption of stationery, fuel, lights, &c., the rents, taxes, and other details, too nu• merous to mention here—l submit that a maximum charge for a message amounting to Id. per mile cannot fairly be considered as an exorbitant demand for the accommodation afforded to the public is ket ping open so teeny receiving stations, end the maintenance of the ex pensive establishment to which I have adverted. The telegraphic system is designed fur important and urgent messages, and could I violate the secrecy which I feel bound strictly to observe, I could show that not one dispatch in a hundred has been forwarded which has not been worth many times the amount paid for it by the sender. A commercial house at Liverpool will scarcely grudge Ss. 6d. for a communication by which a necessary pay ment may be made, an important order given, or a pro fitable operation facilitated in London; and the message from Glasgow, which traverses a distance of 520 miles in an instant, to summon a son from the metropolis to the bedside of a dying parent is scarcely to be judged overpaid at a charge of 14s.—considerably less than id. per mile. A long and expensive journey is prevented, or a neces sary one hastened—a bill accepted or protested—a re mittance made—a purchase Effected or countermanded— an important witness is summoned—the arrival or the loss of a ship is announced— an insurance is effected— advi ,e is asked, or orders given—in fact, an endless variety of important announcements, questions, and re plies pass daily through our numerous receiving-houses, and, I can honestly aver, have for the most part effected, and have Is .en acknowledged to have effected, an eco nomy and convenience tar beyond the Id. per mils of our tariff. An express message sent by porters or by a cab from the City to the west end of the town----say fresh four office to the House of C ommons, a distance of our miles, will cost 2s. 6d., and if the same message can be sent from Manchester to Liverpool, a distance of 30 miles, for the same sum, and in it shorter time, it cannot surely be deemed an ex Agin tray t demand. This letter has gone to so great a length that .I will not further trespass on your space in corroboration of my statement, and I have only, in conclusion, to explain to you that for a long time the receipts of the commercial telegraph were not equal to the current expenditure, and that though the undertaking is now remuneratwe,_ yet many of our wires are in far from complete and contin uous employment, and to point out to you that - We ments which may have the effect of preventing 'tis public from making the full use of the telegraphic iless commodation provided for them calculated not only to impede an extension of that are accommodation, butto preclude the co . company from diminishing the cost at which it is provided. 1 am, Sir, your obedient servant, J. LEWIS lirceeeso, Chairman of the Electric Telegraph Company. Lnthbury, Aptil 23. DEATH OF CAPTAIN SIR THOMAS Bonacnrus, K.C.B.—We regret to state that Captain Sir Thomas Bourchier, K.C.B. Superintendent of Chatham Dock yard, died at his o fficial ' residence, yesterday morning, at three o'clock. lie was a gallant and highly distin guished officer, and had seen a great deal of service. His health and constitution were broken at;China during the war, in which be commanded the Blonde frigate. He married a daughter of Admiral Sir E. Codrington, and was 58 years of age. CHESTER AND HOLYHEAD RAlLWAY.—Traffic for the wet k ended April 21, 1849: —Coaching traffic, 8961. 163. itd. ; parcels, :35/. 7s. 2d.; goods and cattle, 2781. 93. 3d.; steam-boats, 150/. 0;. 6d. Total, 1,360!. 13s. 3d., exclusive of toll from Shrewsbury and Cheater ConTany , end payment for conveyanoe of mils THE SUN, LONDON, . ritIDAY EVENING, APRIL 27,