The Sun. — London, England, 1849-07-13 00:00:00

SIR ROBERT PEEL. The announcement in the Dutch Papers of the arrival of Sir Robert Peel in Holland, on the 9th, is absolutely without foundation. The Right Honourable Baronet spoke in the House en Friday night. On the 9th he was, we believe, at Osborne on a visit to her Majesty. On Tuesday, he, with his family, occupied her Majesty's box at the P,oyal Italian Opera ; and he is at this moment in London attending to his Parliamentary d uties. AUSTRIA. Kossuth his . recently published a proclamation at Pesth, which may be considered as the Magyar programme of the approaching campaign. Kossuth makes a new and imperious appeal to the sturdy patriotism of his countrymen. The priests are ordered to take up the cross and to head their parishioners in the defence of their religion and liberty. The people are .to arm themselves, as they best can, " with scythes, pickaxes, &c." The line of the Theiss and the fords of that river are to be defended, and the inhabitants of the towns and villages shall, on the approach of the enemy, leave their houses and homes, and, carrying away all provisions, take refuge in the fastnesses of the mountains and the islands of the morasses. They are further instructed to set fire to the places in which the enemy are quartered, and to molest them by nocturnal attacks. Kossuth finally states that the Hungarian army numbers 200,000 men; THEATRE ROYAL ? RICHMOND.—This little theatre commenced a season on Monday evening, under the di rectiOn of Mr. John Ryan, a gentleman well-known to the Rtchmond play-goers as a successful caterer for their gratification. The entertainments were varied and numerous, supported by metropolitan artistes of acknow ledged talent, and, if the reception of the company and pieces on Monday be taken as a criterion of future suc cess, Mr. Ryan will have reason to congratulate himself on the result of his speculation. The curtain rose, when the National Anthem was given in capital style by several vocalists from the two operas, who were engaged for the occasion. The farce of Slather and Crasher followed, in which Mr. N. B. Ryan, as Slasher, kept the audience in a roar from first to last. The celebrated Shawl Dance was admirably given by Miss C. Palser, and drew down a unanimous encore; a similar compliment was paid to the Misses Desborough and Furtle, who danced the Minuet and Bolero (as done by thorn before her Majesty and the Court at the St. James's Theatre lately) with elegance and effect. The petite drama of Monsieur Jacques introduced Mr. R Barnett, who played the hero of the piece with much feeling; the parts of Sequence and Vivid were excellently sustained by Messrs. G. Cooke and H. Lee of the Marylebone Theatre. The song of "I'm going for a Soldier, Jenny," was sung with great taste by Miss Marian Holmes, who possesses a soprano voice of much power and' sweetness, which she manages with the skill of an experienced musician. Some comic singing by Mr. N. B. Ryan and IL Saville created much merriment. The hit of the evening, however, was the Gitans,, by Miss Rosins Ryan, who gave that popu lar dance with much grace and spirit, betraying such great talent in the art as astonished and delighted her ateslitors, and produced a rapturous encore. The farce of Mr. and Mrs. White terminated the performances, in which Mr. G. Cooke and Mr. N. B. Ryan, as Major Pepper and Peter White, made some large demands upon the risible faculties of the audience, and which were heartily responded to. It is four years since the theatre had a lessee before, and Mr. Ryan's theatrical tact and industry will, we hope, render his undertaking a source of enjoyment to his patrons, and profit to himself. REGISTRATION or VOTERS.—The new law affect ing the registration of voters will come into practical operation on the 20th inst. hitherto taxes and poor rates due on the sth of April were to be paid on or before the 20th of July, but by the Act 11 and 12 Vic., cap. 90, it is declared "that after the Ist of January, 1849, no person shall be required, in order to entitle him to have his name inserted in any list of voters for any city, town, or borough in England, to have paid any poor's-rates or assessed taxe s e xce pt suc h as s h a ll h ave become payable from him previously to the sth of January in the same year, and that no person shall be entitled to be on any such list of voters unless the poors rates and assessed taxes, payable from him previously to the sth day of January, shall be paid on or before the 20th day of July next following." PROGRESS or THE CrtoLeax.—Mr. W. Baker held six inquests on Tuesday in various parts of his district, on the bodies of persons who died from Asiatic cholera, and verdicts to that effect were returned in every case. It appeared that the deceased, without an exception, had been living when attacked by the disease in districts where the drainage was bad. EMIGRATION.—During the ast six months 87,443 emigrants have sailed from the port of Liverpool. The number for the corresponding period of 1848 was 82,680.—Liverpool Courier. THE BISHOP OF EXETER'S BUTLER CHARGED WIT STEALING A PORTMANTEAU.—At the Devon County Sessions, last week, George Evans, butler to the Bishop of Exeter, was indicted on a charge of stealing a portmanteau containing clothes. The indictment con tained eight counts—the first four charging the prisoner with stealing, and the last four with feloniously receiving. The property was laid in the several counts as belonging respectively to the Great Western Railway Company, the Bristol and Exeter Railway Company, the South Devon Railway Company, and Master Francis Du Pre Montague. The prosecution was instituted by the Great Western Railway Company. It appeared that in May, 1848, Master Montagu lost his portmanteau on a journey from Bristol to Newton, and nothing was heard of it until the month of June last, when the police received information which induced them to search the prisoner's apartment in the Bishop's residence at Bishopstowe. They there found a quantity of articles marked " F. D. Montagu." Having taken possession of these things, they charged the prisoner with stealing the portmanteau, and he replied that he had brought a portmanteau from London by mistake, and he supposed the things were in it. Ile was then taken into custody, and it ap peared at the trial that in May, 1848, the Bishop travelled by railway from London to Torquay, giving his luggage ' in charge of the prisoner. A probability was therefore raised that the portmanteau might by accident have been placed amongst the things belonging to the Bishop. This being the defence set up by the prisoner, the chairman of the Session left it to the jury to say whether they be lieved his account, or whether they thought he had stolen the portmanteau. The jury returned a verdict of Not Guilty. In the course of the trial several witnesses testified to the good character of the prisoner, and the Bishop of Exeter said that if he should be acquitted he would take him into his service again with unimpaired confidence. THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY.—This Company, which is to have the government of Vancouver's Island, was formed by Prince Rupert, who, with other great men, applied, in 1669, to Charles the Second, and obtained an unlimited charter for ever, of all the land around and beyond the bay, which was to bo called Rupert's Land, together with an ex clusive trade, in order to make settlements as in other American colonies, and to extend the British trade. Also to find out a passage to the Western Ocean or Northern Pacific. The charter bears date the 2d of May, 1670, and Charles Bayly, Esq., was sent out governor for that year, with instructions to fix a factory, which accordingly was established at Rupert's River, in 51 deg. 29 m. north. Near 180 years have now expired since the Hudson's Bay Company claimed possession of their lands. LOUIS % PHILIPPE, THE DUCHESS OF ORLEANS, AND THE ~COUNT DE PARIS.—A correspondent who witnessed the meeting of Louis Philippe and his Con sort Amelie, with the Duchess of Orleans and her young sons, at Lewes, on the evening of Thursday se'nnight, describes it as a very touching scene. There was a considerable number of people assembled at the station, and, on the Queen of the Belgians and the Duchess of Orleans alighting from their car riage, it was with no little difficulty tha; way was made for the royal ladies to the room which had been given up to Louis Philippe, and who, advancing eagerly from it, exclaimed to those about him, " ?" (Where, where ?), as though searching for the new corners. There now advanced—the Duchess first, with the Count de Paris in her hand, who, directly he saw the aged Queen, ran up to her, and,' placing his hand affectionately on her arm, ex claimed, looking up at her, "Ma bonne libman! ma bonne Mamanl" Louis Philippe took the Duchess in his arms with every sign of joy and affection; it was the first time he had seen her and the young Count since the fatal day when they were separated at the Tuileries—the King to escape to England, the Duchess and her son to remain and try the chance of a Regency. The Duchess has a firm, almost martial carriage; her step is that of a heroine; but the deep mark round her eyes show that her woman's spirit has deeply mourned her own calamities and those of her husband's house. The King, who never looked better, led her to the carriage; the aged Queen (who, however, is as tall and erect as ever) followed with the young Count de Paris-3 fine boy, whose height and bearing make him look much older than he really is—ten years. The Queen of the Belgians followed with the young Duke de Chartres, a beau tiful boy, the second son of the Duchess d'Orleans, and after her the other members of the Orleans family in England ; and thus they entered the large carriage which had been prepared for them to proceed to St. Leonard's. As the old King entered the carriage with his young grandson, the people round about raised a " Hip , hip, hurrah," which seemed to sound not unpleasing in the ears of Louis Philippe, for he turned round upon the st e p and bowedd,aupde'said di so mething, but what our correspondent not hear. And, then, the " fortunes" of the Orleans family were whirled away.—Brighton Herald. WIGAN.—FATAL ACCIDENT AT KIRK LESS COL LIERY. —On Saturday week, as the men employed at the Kirkless Colliery were leaving work for the week, an accident of a serious nature took place. A man named Roger Fletcher, a roadsrnan at the bottom, and another man named Hugh Hughes, had finished work, :Ind got into the basket or tub to ascend the shaft, when Hughes gave tho usual signal to the engineer to start. Hughes was standing up at the time, and had old of the chains, but Fletcher was sitting down on the other side of the basket, as was his usual custom in ascending the pit. Im mediately on the starting of the engine, Fletcher fell backwards out of the basket on the bottom of the shaft, and injured his back very much, so that he was obliged to be conveyed in a cart to his residence in Fleece-yard, Wigan, where he lingered until Sa turda y morning last, whn he expired, leaving a wife and mother to mourn his loss. On Monday last, an inquest was held on Fletcher's body, at the Fleece Inn, and the jury returned a verdict of Accidental Death.—Manciseshr Guardian. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, July 12. Their Lordships met at Five o'clock. On the motion of Lord CAMPBELL, the Quarter Sessions Proceedings Bill was read a second time. On the motion of the Earl of CARLISLE, the Drain age of Lands Bill was read a third time and passed. CRIMINAL LAW CONSOLIDATION. Lord BROUGHAM introduced a Bill to consolidate the criminal law relating to homicide and offences against the person, which was read a first time. PORT PATRICK AND DONAGHADEE. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that after the large sum of money which had been expended at the national expense on the harbours of Port Patrick and Donaghadee, amounting to upwards of 400,0001., and the grant last year of 10,0001., by her Majesty's present Government, to enlarge and dredge the basins for the reception of large steam vessels, it is highly inexpedient to remove the packets from the station and give up the desirable communication between the south-west of Scotland and the north of Ireland. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said that the al teration had taken place for the public convenience. Lord DE ROOS contended that the harbour of Donaghadee ought to be kept up as a harbour of refuge. After a few words from the Earl of GALLOWAY, The Marquis of CLANRICARDE explained, and their Lordships divided, when there appeared— Contems ••• ... 18 Not contents ... •.. 31 Majority against the motion —l3 SITES FOR SCHOOLS. Their Lordships then went into Committee on this Bill. Lord REDESDALE proposed a clause to enable landowners to grant pieces of land, not exceeding five acres each, for the purposes of normal schools. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was understood to say he should not oppose the clause. After a few words from Lord CAMPBELL the clause was agreed to. The Earl of POWIS then proposed a clause to facili tate the exchange of sites for schools. Lord REDESDALE objected to the clause, because it was contrary to the provisions of former Acts on this subject. The clause was negatived w ith ou t a di v i s i on , an d t h e Bill was reported to the House. Lord MONTEAGLE presented a petition from an individual in favour of the Railway Accouats Audit . BilL Also a petition from the guardians of an union 10. Ireland, sign e d by L or d St uar t d e D ec ies, as chairman, praying for the appointme n t o f a resident assessor in each union to assist the guardians. Their Lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, July 12. MERCHANT SEAMEN AND PILOTS. Mr.I.ABOUCHERE(in continuation from our After noon Edition of yesterday) said—There were one or two statements in support of that assertion, independent of those reports, to whichhe could not help calling the atten tion of the House, because they came from authorities of the highest character, who had no bias of any sort to give a colour to their statements. Mr. Morley Wigram stated, when he was examined be fore the House of Lords, that he was engaged in the China and India trade, in which the character of our vessels were very high, and in which the captains commanding them were of a better class, better 'edu • cated, and more trustworthy. He stated, however, that that character did not apply to the merchant navy generally, and that he was afraid that the reports of the consuls were too correct. Mr. Richmond, another gentleman, observed that if he were to say that our English captains had improved within the last twenty-five years, he should state that which was not a fact; that the captains of our merchant ships were a less educated class of men than they were sixty years ago. Mr. George Frederick Young also said, although he thought that indiscriminate censure had 'been thrown on the commanders of those ships, he believed, taking into account the whole of our trading ships, that the captains of many fo reign ships were of a better class than the captains of many of our ships. The Right Honourable Gentleman then quoted a passage from the work of Mr. 31'1'0'1-land, to show that a preference was given twenty years ago to our ships in the Medit,rranean and Italian seas, and that the amount re quired by underwriters for an insurance upon them was less, but that now no such preference was given, and no difference was made with resp,:ct to the insurance. He (Mr. Labouchere) was anxious to call the attention of the House to a memorial which came from the Bombay Chamber of Commerce in 1832, which appeared to him to be of very great im portance. They stated with regard to the India and China trade, which, generally speaking, had a much higher class of captains than the Mediter ranean and American trade, that serious conse quences had ensued from want of discipline on board merchant vessels owing to a want of morality in the captains, and to the little respect in which they were held by their men. He also called the attention of the Government to another most important point, vii., that though the captains were generally possessed of sufficient scientific attainments the mates were not, and the con sequence was, that if any accident happened to the cap tain, the vessel was placed under the command of an in competent man, and the result had been that most serious accidents had happened. lie (Mr. Labouchere) had also stated that he believed that there was a great want of improvement .in the . discipline of the crews of the merchant ships of this country —(Hear, hear)—and that he believed this, in many particulars, necessarily connected itself with what he before stated as to the want,of properly qualified captains. He believed that where the want of discipline existed among the crew of a merchant vessel the cause was generally traced to the person of the master of the vessel. Ot this hi? was certain, that proper discipline could not be enforced unless they had some security that the captain would not improperly or harshly discharge his duties, for not only had he the care of a great amount of property, but the lives and comforts of many of his fellew-creatures were entrusted to his charge. He held, therefore, that these two subjects were closely connected with each other. He would not weary the House by quoting the reports of the consuls, but he would appeal to every Member in the House who was acquainted with the subject whether there was not a lamentable want of discipline in our merchant vessels. Our whale fishery, which was once of so much importance, we had almost entirely lost from a want of discipline on the part of the crews em ployed in the vessels engaged in that service. He believed that it had been transferred to America in consequence of the superiority of the American crews over ours. He now came to the third and main point, to which he was anxious to call the attention of the House—he meant the general condition of the sailor, which they must now look upon with regret. In the last year there had been no less than 14,000 desertions from the British merchant navy. That he thought was a sufficient rea son to induce him to call the attention of the House to the condition of these men. The relation between a merchant-seamen and his employer was one of a very peculiar nature; it was always so recognised and dealt with in every mercantile country. The sailor and his employer never entered into agreement with each other in the same manner in which the employer and the employed were accustomed to do in other trades. On this point he could quote the opinion of a gentleman who was a high authority in such matters, though not an Englishman, still one whose opinion was worth lis tening to—that of the American Chancellor Kent. This gentleman described the condition of the sailor in terms which he was convinced were not overdrawn, and he was sure the House would agree with him that it would be very bad policy to leave this class of men entirely to themselves to take their own chalice in forming their tontracts with their employers; and that it would be no more than right that the State should interfere for the protection of the sailor. He should state that in pro posing any improvement of this system he should not be introducing anything entirely new, but merely proceed ing upon grounds which had been laid down before and sanctioned by the Legislature. Experience had proved that in the contracts between the seaman and his employer much depended upon the character and of the agent employed by the sailor, upon his qualifica tion and trustworthiness. Without the trustworthiness of this person could be secured, they left the sailor ex posed to the greatest frauds. In America this object was mainly obtained by insisting that all contracts of this sort should be conducted through the instrumentality of a notary public, but in this country there was no class who managed these contracts equal to these notaries public, in respectability and qualification. This was a point greatly to be deplored. During the late Adminis tration a measure had been brought in to endeavour to improve this system by providing that no persons but those duly licensed should :be employed; and though, no doubt, this system had been produc tive of very general benefit, yet he could not think that it was sufficient to work that amount of good which was necessary ; it fell very far short of what was required. It was found still very difficult to in duce. persons of proper respectability to undertake these duties. In many instances licences had been obliged to be given to lodging-house keepers; and though they had excluded slop-sellers, still it was found impossible to draw the line in a proper place. It was quite certain that if they wished to accomplish any important altera• Lion in this system, to make the sailor satisfied with his contract, they must attempt to conduct this business through the instrumentality of persons of very different character than hitherto. There was also another point, to which he had directed his attention, and that was the sanitary condition of the seamen on board. No man could read the reports that had been laid before the House on this point, and had heard the manner in which sailors were stowed together, engendering the seeds of future disease, and, perhaps, of death, without feeling the necessity of some interference — that it was desirable to introduce some alterations. He had now stated the general points relating to the mer cantile marine where it was desirable to extend relief; and he would now proceed to state the details of the measure which he intended to lay before the House. He knew it was a subject which required great consideration, and he was conscious that any measure which he might introduce would be capable of great alteration. A t pr t chsaetn was a there responsiblee r e wa for the cdepartmentcondition t i o o f no thef the Govern ment sea men,hetweetnhertehewasa Admiraltyjuris jurisdiction i a c n t tine B di vid o e a d rd o antd' T fi r u a c d t e u ati andng there was no doubt but th a t t h e mercantile interest' had greatly suffered from this. lle, therefore, proposed to d give the Board of Trade an increased authority, with it increased responsibility. I n or d er to do this he should propose to add to the Board of Trade a department going by the name of the Board of Mercantile Marine, not to constitute a separate board, but merely to institute a separate department of the Board of Trade under this name. On this board he intended there should be two members who should have served as captains in the mer chant service, for he thought that the mercantile marine hsd a right to expect thst in a board like this it should THE SUN, LONDON, have some persons who understood its necessities and sympathised with its wants. He should first state, then, what he intended to do with respect to the first di vision of his proposed improvements—the qualification of masters and mates. At present there was a system of voluntary examination for these officers, and he thought that this had been productive of much good, but he had no hesitation in stating, after the experience he had had, that it was not sufficient. Without going into any detail, or making any particular charges, he would say that these examinations were not always exactly what they ought to be. Well, then, with regard to this part of the subject, he proposed in future that these examinations should be entirely under the superintendence of the Board of Trade, and that this department of mer cantile marine, which he proposed to establish in it, should grant certificates of three kinds. He proposed in future that every master and mate, pre vious to his being entrusted with the command of a vessel, should be obliged to pass an examination and to obtain one of those certificates. At the same time that he proposed that system for the future, he thought it would be inexpedient, unjust, and almost impossible, to apply this system to masters and mates who were already in service, seeing it to be unlikely that their education could have embraced many of those qualifications which will probably be insisted on under the proposed system of examination. Ho would propose, therefore, at first, that all that any merchant or mate in command of a merchant vessel should be required to do should be to go to this mercantile marine department and obtain a certificate, not of qualification, but of service either in the mercantile marine or in that of the East India Com pany, and that that certificate should entitle him to the command of a merchant vessel. He also held that in future any merchant captain, who should be satisfactorily proved to have misconducted himself, should be de prived of his certificate, whether it was one of service or of qualification. Perhaps, on that part of the sub ject, be might mention that he proposed in cases of gross misconduct, attended with loss of life or property, on the part of a merchant captain, that that should consti tute a misdemeanour, and that he should be brought to answer for it before the tribunals of the country. — (Hear, hear.) He believed, from the communications he had had from shipowners on this subject that that would constitute a very important guarantee to the shipowner against the misbehaviour of the captain. He now came to the remaining branches of this subject ; he meant the discipline of the crew and the condition of the seamen. lie believed a great deal depended on the character of the agent employed in drawing up a contract between the sailor and his employer, and some material improvement on the present system should be adopted —(Hear.) He proposed to substitute for the present system of licensed agents shipping officers who should be public officers estab lished at our principal ports, through" whose instru mentality those contracts should be carried out. He had received remonstrances from almost every port in Eng land on the extent to which the crimping system pre vailed; and to such a degree had it obtained at Quebec that the Colonial Assembly of Canada had established public responsible shipping officers at their ports, by whom those contracts between the sailor and his employer should be conducted in order to put an end to that crimping system. The condition of the sailor has been greatly ameliorated since that re gulation came in force, and the trade, which was con ducted in a way scandalous to the country, was now carried on with an infinitely greater degree of satisfac tion. Such a regulation would go far to remedy evils of a similar nature in this country. He proposed, therefore, that shipping officers should be established in the ports of this country, and he believed those officers might be made greatly instrumental in protecting the seamen, and also in disciplining the crew when they embarked on board of ship. He proposed that seamen were to be heard at those offices, and that all ships' agreements should be signed in the presence of the shipping officer, and attested and explained by him. With regard to the dietary, i❑ all well-conducted ships a scale was agreed upon before going to sea; and he believed a scale of dietary properly framed would be a very useful thing on board of those ships. He would also add that a form of log-book, properly drawn up, would be supplied to every ship, and that offences against the regulations would be properly entered in that log-book. He believed that by this means of fines some of the most frequent causes of discontent would be taken away from the merchant seamen, and that discipline would be better enforced. But he would add that he was so much impressed with the neces sity of strengthening the discipline of the merchant service that he proposed to give to captains having first class certificates, and commanding vessels of a certain amount of tonnage, a power which ho believed was necessary fur the welfare of the navy, and though it might be a strong power, it was one which he thought ought to be given. He proposed that for speci fied offences they should possess the power of imprison ment on board ship. With respect to this subject the log-book would be a material check. He believed it was for the interest of the mercantile marine that the hands of merchant captains should be strengthened with regard to punishment. A far more stringent discipline was in practice in American vessels. Corporal punish ment was there in the power of the captain, and he was supported by the American Government in inflicting it. It was to be remembered that the cir cumstances of trade had very much altered. During the war merchant ships were almost always near navy vessels, but the case was very different now.—(Hear.) He proposed when the ship returned to pert that her crew should be paid off before the shipping officer, and not on board, as they had hitherto been. He proposed also that that officer should hear what the crew had to say with regard to disputes that had taken place, and that in any disputes under 40s. he should have a summary power of adjudication, and even above that amount if all the party agreed that he should do so; but if they did not, then another course should be pursued. lie believed that by these means a great deal of dissatisfaction would be obviated, that justice would be done, and pettifogging and low lawyers would be pre vented from practising on the unwary.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the subject of the sanitary condition of ships, he proposed that a space of not less than eight superficial feet should be appropriated to the seamen on that part of the ship ap propriated to the men. There was another mat ter on which he believed the new vocation of the Board of Trade might be exercised with advantage. He re ferred to the question of the registry of seamen. The system of tickets had been found to be most grievous to the sailor, and ineffective to the pre vention of fraud.—(Hear, hear.) He understood that in Wapping they might buy as many tickets as they pleased.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") The only point on which the ticket system had had any operation was with regard to apprentices, and with regard to them there was no necessity whatever for keeping up the system of registration. He proposed, therefore, in the Bill he was about to introduce to give to the Board of Trade the_ power of putting an end to the registration department, and transferring it to the Board of Trade, by that means the system of registration would be done away with. He proposed that some fee should be taken by the ship's officers, and by that means and the fines a sum would be raised which would, as he calculated, amount to nearly 40,0001. a year; he thought, after the payment of the ship's officers, there would be a surplus of nearly 30,0001. a year, out of which he thought many useful purposes might be effected. He had no matured scheme with regard to that surplus, but he could not but think that out of that fund good service pensions might be' given to_ masters and mates in the merchant ser vice with good effect. He thought that anything that raised the master and mates would tend to good. He should be glad if the system ho proposed should oblige shipowners to give to their servants higher wages. Great good might be accomplished by a fund of such a nature ; for instance, in addition to the advantages he had mentioned, it would enable the captains of merchant vessels to wear badges emblematic of their good service, and which would en dow them with some authority in foreig❑ ports, thus raising them in their own estimation, which could not fail to be attended with the best results. The fund derived from the fines of seamen should be applied to the benefit of seamen themselves in general, and this might be done in connexion with — the Merchant Seamen's Fund, or in some other way. In the Bill there were several minor matters with which he itw o e u o l n d a n i n o e t d trouble vi s t i o h ne withHo u s respecte, except t to o advance mention vauc e notes. lie believed no more important subject could come under the attention of the House and the country than the one he had now laid before it, and he was most anxious that it should receive the dispassionate consideration of both. He was sensible that the laws which referred to this immense body were susceptible of great improvement, but he thought, with regard to the measure he had introduced, and was desirous of passing this session, that it would meet the wants of the mercantile marine and tend to improve the sanitary and moral condition and contentment of the great body of the seafaring population of this country embarked in that marine, which, as he had already stated to the House, were inti mately bound up with the welfare, security, and national defences of this country. It only remained fur him to thank the House for what necessarily was a lengthened statement. The only Bill he asked the House to pass this ses • sion was the Bill with respect to the light dues. With re gard to the important measures to which he had alluded in his address, he only sought leave to lay them on the table of the House.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman then handed in a resolution embodying the sentiments contained in his speech. Mr. W. E. GLADSTONE thought the House and the country were indebted to the Right Hon. Gentleman for the interesting view he had taken of a subject which had no exterior attraction. He should not attempt to follow the Right Hon. Gentleman through the many points on which he had touched. The plans which he had pro posed were of great importance, and with respect to the last it was perfectly obvious that it would require more detailed and prolonged discussion than could be given to it during the present session. Lie should, therefore, confine him,elf to a few of the subj.•cts. %With regard to the question of the light dues he was exceedingly glad he had succeeded in obtaining a considerable remission of those duos, and he thought that the corporation of the Trinity-house, whatever they might think of the consti tution of that b dy—he thought that body deserved the thanks of the House for meeting with enlightened judg ment the exigencies of the times.—(Hear, hear.) He regretted, however, that he had not laid the Bill he had respect to the light dues, as it would have i n th troduced upon the table simultaneously with t fo h r e m ß e t r l l l y w i been a practical recogni'ion of its purpose. He trusted the Hon. Gentleman had well considered the legality of the course he had adopted. Mr. LABOUCHERE—Hear, hear. Mr. GLADSTONE thought that the diversity of charges upon different classes of vessels in respect to the light dues was a very difficult matter. He said when a ship had sailed from a given point and had paid light dues, that it should not be called upon to pay them when it passed the same light and entered the same port homeward hound. Mr. LABOUCIIERE said a certain class of vessel, when it had once passed a light, was to be exempt when it returned, but other classes would have to pay both ways. Mr. GLADSTONE said, in reference to the question of pilotage, ho regretted that, with the views he had entertained, the question of the repeal of the navigation-laws had prevented him making the state ment earlier in the session; for though he anticipated unanimityplan, and though perf e ctly fair, ye ce o i f his vab le that the p ar ti es i ntereste d ti t i n was respect of might demand delay before it was settled. But the statement was incomplete, he had omitted any particular mention of the Merchant Seamen's Fund. It was necessary that the fund should be placed under better government, as it perpetrated many anomalies, and often neglected to provide ade quately for those who had the greatest claims upon it, whilst it unduly favoured others. He (Mr. Gladstone) suggested whether it would not be well to wind up the affair altogether, compensating those who had pensions, and arranging - with those who had inchoate claims; and to remodel it, for it was insolvent, and its in solvency was increasing from year to year. If it remained as it was, in a few years it would be absolutely necessary to legislate with respect to it. The Right lion. Gentleman had proposed to make an order for compulsory examinations, and he was not dis posed to conceive that such examinations were unneces sary. But there was one subject to which he must refer, and that was the regulation contained in the Bill by which the certificates granted to masters and mates were to be withdrawn. Now, he did nut think that there was anything in the Bill unjust but this, and he did conceive that it was unjust, nut to say anything of the icnpolicy of giving to a subordinate portion of an executive department that power, which was of so large a character that it was only exceeded in the consequences which were likely to ensue from it by the penalties ina rho s t e h d e upon m i t e h a e l o e ff e e u n r c t s e . s , o ß f y w t h h i e c h r e c g o u g l a n t i e e ti n c t e o was which take h n e had alluded the certificates of masters and mates of ves sels might be withdrawn by the magistrates of this jurisdiction, who would at any time be liable to actions for their proceedings, and the regulations would prove harsh in the extreme to the British seaman. These certificates ought to be withdrawn for any case of desertion. He was quite ready to bear his share in commendation of the British seaman, and no one could be more anxious that those merits should be duly recog nised and rewarded.—(Hear, hear.) None could think more highly or his qualities and capability for his work. Those qualities and that capability had long been proved; but yet if there were any deficiencies which it lay in their power to remove in order to render that capability the greater, it wee unquestionably their duty to remove them—(Hear, hear)—and in doing so it was their duty altogether to cli,regard the clamour that might be reined respecting the rights of the British seaman. He did not wish to say more, but there was one other remark which he felt compelled to make. The Right Hon. Gentle man, in his speech on the Bill for the repeal of the na vigation-laws, had observed that that measure was not intended to inflict an injury but to confer a benefit. In this he perfectly concurred; and he did not feel that they were in any way retracing their steps; but the question was whether this Bill was quite adequate to all its ob jects, and whether a larger, more comprehensive, and more effective measure might not have been introduced. —(Hear.) For his own part he was free to confess that he thought there might have been. Ho thought that the principle which had been adopted with respect to the masters and the mates of vessels ought also to be adopted with respect to manning the mercantile marine. They had emancipated the shipowner, they had emanci pated the shipbuilder, they had destroyed the monopoly of both, and why not destroy also the monopoly of the seaman.—(Hear, hear.) The principle which they had applied to the shipbuilder and the shipowner, which had to a certain extent been applied to the masters and mates of vessels, was equally applicable to the seamen. He was convinced that the system of compulsory examination would do good, great good, but still not all the good that might be accomplished. They might go further, and give to the seamen who man our ships the same facilities which the masters and shipowners enjoyed, and allow them to seek employment wherever it might be beneficial for their interests.—(Hear, hear.) It was a very remarkable and significant fact that during the last year not less than 14,000 of cur seamen had deserted the merchant service. It was plainly evident, then, that that service did not pos sess any very great or peculiar attractions, and no unnecessary scruples need be entertained respecting the introduction of rules by which its regula tion might be improved.—(hear, hear.) They had adopted the principle of building their ships and carry ing their goods in the best manner and at the lowest cost. Why should they not carry out this principle to the manning of those ships, and let the shipowner procure his crews and make his arrangements with any set of men with whom he might choose to engage.—(Hear.) That principle f could not, might not be adopted this session, but he must say that the next should not, ought not to pass without some Bill grounded upon it being carried through Parliament. He did not wish in any way to depreciate the present Bill of the Right Hon. Gentleman, or in any way to disparage his motives or his endeavours to improve the condition of our mercan tile marine, but he could not help saying that the Bill would have been better if the principle to which he al luded had been embodied in its provisions. Sir G. CLERK thought the Bill which the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed to introduce was one whch, from the reduction of the light dues that it would effect, was likely to be of great immediate benefit to the mercantile community. The Right Hon. Gentleman had asked for leave to intro duce a Bill, which he had stated he wished to pass this session. As Member for Dover, he must protest against a measure which so nearly affected the interests of his constituents being taken at so late a period of the session. The Right Hon. Gentleman had stated that the measure of LordSyd-nham had been defeated by local interests. He only mentioned this to prove that local interests did exist. He thought he had a right to complain of the late period of the session. It would have been just as easy to bring on the measure on the 12th of February as on the 12th of July. The alterations too which were proposed were very objectionable, and injurious too to the pilots; and from what ho had seen there was no such great excess of remuneration paid to them that it was necessary: those at the Cinque Ports had about 1101. per annum, and the others about 1201. Ile must ask too with regard to the examination of masters and mates, did the Right Hon. Gentleman imagine that the American Minister, or the American captains, would submit to this. He thought that not only the Ameri cans but also all the foreign Ministers would complain. Till a full opportunity had been afforded the country for considering the Bill, he hoped it would not be persevered in; but, at all events, if it were, it would meet with his most decided opposition.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. T. M. GIBSON observed that a pilot question never could be brought before Parliament without it always being thought necessary to introduce a clause to this effect : " Provided always that nothing in this Bill contained shall effect the rights and privileges of the Cinque-ports." There was always a reservation of that sort conveyed in an intimation that they might do what they liked without interfering with the Cinque Ports. Now it so happened that the Cinque Ports were the great grievances, they formed the subject of all the complaints and if they left them out of the Bill, it would be like the play of Hamlet with the part of Hamlet left out.— (Hear, and a laugh.) The speech which they had just heard was not the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet the late Vice-President of the Board of Trade, but the speech of the Hon. Member for Dover, and certainly the speech induced him to think of his Right Hon. Friend's scheme, for certainly he did not collect from his Right Hon. Friend's observation that he intended to grapple with the Cinque Ports in a manner that would become him as a Minister of the Crown. From the speech of the Honourable Member fur Dover—(A laugh)— it appeared otherwise. Now this was not a question affecting the rights of a large body of individuals; and though there might have been a time when the ne cessities of the country required that large and ex clusive privileges should be conferred on the Cinque Ports, that time had long since passed away, and instead of those privileges being a public convenience they were a public nuisance; he therefore called upon the Right Honourabie Baronet the President of the Board of Trade to deal with these Cinque Ports with a bold hand. He did not believo that the dis tinguished person who was at the head of them would throw any obstacle in the way of improvement, if proper representations were made to them.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the pilot system itself, it worked in this way: when ships do not want a pilot he is forced upon them, and when they do want a pilot they cannot get one, and for this simple reason, that they secured to the pilot a certainty of employ ment and income in fine weather, which induced him to take no trouble, and go to sea in bad weather. If they secured an income to him in fine weather, it was not likely that he would run the risk and danger, and incur the wear and tear by going to sea in rough weather, and the consequence was, that very often at the South Foreland, vessels which were compelled to submit to the charge of a pilot in fine weather, often ran the risk of be ing lost through the neglect of the pilot to go to s ea i n rough weather. With regard to the Trinity Corpor a ti on , he was one of those who h a d never joined in a tilt against them, because the evil of the light dues had been occasioned by the acts of the Crown and the Legis lature.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. CARDWELL said, if he understood the state ment of the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite, he had brought three questions before them upon which he proposed to take the opinion of the House. The first of these was to give an important relief to the mercantile marine, and as that measure was not to be disposed of in the present session, he should say nothing against it then. With regard to the second question of pilotage, the Right Honourable Gentleman proposed to bring in a Bill which he is anxious to pass in the present session of Parliament. It was merely of a permissive nature, to enable those parties who had the control of the pilotage to make certain remissions in regard to taking pilots where it would be expedient; end, at the first view, it certainly did appear a reasonable proposal, which he was not then prepared to object to.—(Cries of "Hear, hear.") At the same time, however, he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Manchester would feel with him, that it was but reasonable that those parties whom it would affect should have time to consider its provisions, and he should, therefore, defer any observa tions upon the subject till the second reading, when he would have had an opportunity of communicating with the parties interested in the Bill.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the third and by far the most important sub ject, the Right H on. G entleman ha d propose d a course which must be eminently satisfactory to the House. He proposed to lay before them in detail a comprehensive scheme with regard to the mercantile marine, and having done so he proposed to give the country a NU opportunity of considering the measure before any FRIDAY EVENING, JULY 13, iBlO,l opinion of the House could b) asked for. He would, therefore, be no party to raising any objection to this Bill at the present moment, nor did he think any of those obstacles sugg( steel by the Right Hon. Gentleman would be thrown in his way. lie promised the Pi4ht Hon. Gentlern;n to give his mo t :lelib?rate attention to the proposition, and in the communic. - ition which it would be his duty to hold with those parties whose interests are most affected by it, he would endeavour to arrive at a solution of the question which it is the Right Honourable Gentleman's desire to attain, namely, the best means of raising the condition of the masters, the seamen of the mercantile marine, and of promoting the social advantage and welfare of that class of the community. He had before him a statement of the existing law of the subject, which, did time permit, he should be glad to detail to the House; but, at all events, this he must be allowed to say, that the existing law gave a much larger control over the sailors of the mercantile marine than would be supposed by those who has listened to the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. LABOUCHERE said, it now being three o'clock, he trusted the Committee would at once agree to the resolution, end postpone its consideration till the second reading of the Bill. Some doubt had been raised as to whether the Trinity House had the power to carry out the arrangement in reference to the light dues, but he had consulted with parties competent to give the best opinion on the subject, and they entertain not the least doubt upon the matter—indeed, in the case of Scotland, some year s a g o, a remission was actually made in the same manner that he now pro• posed, namely, in conjunction with the Privy Council.— (Hear, hear.) He trusted that the Committee would now agree to the resolution, and he would fix the second reading for some day next week. Captain HARRIS gave the Right Hon. Gentleman great credit for the measure he had brought before the House, which no doubt had been dictated by a desire to benefit the mercantile marine ; but there was one pint which he had heard with extreme regret, and that was that it was intended to do away with the registry certificate.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. HENLEY said, afier the Right llon. Gentleman had quoted disputed evidence in such a wholesale manner, he did not think that it was quite fair, at three o'clock in the afternoon, to suddenly cut short the discussion without giving any party an opportunity of answering it. A resolution, agreeing with the necessity of intro ducing measures upon the subject was then agreed to. The House then resumed, and leave was given to bring in the necessary Bills. The House then adjourned until Five o'clock. The House resumed at Five o'clock. STRANGERS. The report of the Committee on " Strangers " was brought up, and ordered to lie on the table. BEXLEY WOOD. Mr. P. WOOD presented a petition from cottagers living in the vicinity of Bexley Wood, praying that, in the event of the wood being enclosed, they might re ceive a sufficient allowance of fuel. SCOTCH MARRIAGE BILL. Mr. BAILLIE presented a petition from a place in Inverness-shire against the Scotch Itlarriage Bill. AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS. Mr. W. MILES presented a petit i m from a place in Somersetshire complaining of the existence of agricul tural distress. BEER-HOUSES. The lIoN. MEMBER also presented several petitions from pleocs in Sumersetshire complaining of the spread of beer-houses. CHURCHES AND CHAPELS IN WALES. Mr. JOHN WILLIAMS rose to put a question to the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department relative to the non compliance with a portio❑ of a return relative to churches and chapels in Wales, which was presented to the House on Friday last. Tho Bishops of Llandaff and of St. David's were those who had neglected to make the returns, and he wished to know from the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Home Department, in the absence of the Under-Secretary of State, what was the reason of this? Sir G. GREY said that he way aware that inquiry had been made on the subject, but in the absence of his Right Hon. Friend he could not get any information. Mr. JOHN WILLIAMS said tie should place on the paper for to-morrow night a notice for the production of these returns. Sir G. GREY said, that if the Hon. Member would ask the question of the Under-Secretary of State, when he was in his place he would probably be able to inform him. COMMISSIONERS OF DEPARTMENT OF CUSTOMS. Mr. TIIORNELY rose to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether any reports have been made by the Commissioners for inquiring into the management of the Department of Customs; and, if such reports have bee❑ made, whether the Government will, in consequence, be able to effect any material saving in the cost of collecting the revenue of Customs; and whether the inquiries of the Commissioners are still proceeding. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that some time ago a report had been presented, and in consequence of which a saving had been effected of 60,0001. ; a report was now being made by which it was expected that 10,0001. more would be saved, and further inquiries would, no doubt, lead to further reductions. ST. MARGARET'S CHURCH AND THE CHOLERA. Mr. BERNAL rose to call the attention of the Secre tary of State to the fact, that while the cholera was advancing with great rapidity, the Members of that House were assailed by several nuisances which existed about the House, and particularly by the smell arising from the vaults of St. Margaret's Church, which were often so overpowering that the Members of Committees were obliged to close their windows. He would also advert to the state of sewer age, which, after all their expensive measures, was so bad in his own neighbourhood,ia mile from the House, that he had often been obliged to close his window. Sir G. GREY said that all the powers which were vested in the Board of Health were being used to clear away such causes of complaint, and he himself, when he had his attention called to such subjects, always communicated with the Board of Health or to the police. Mr. GOULBURN inquired whether a treaty which had been stated to be pending on the part of the church wardens of St. Margaret's, for a burying-ground, had been completed? Sir G. GREY said he was not able to inform the Right Hon. Gentleman. Lord ASHLEY said that the Board of Health had no jurisdiction to interfere, except where the cholera had broken out. They had no power to do anything for the permanent removal of disease. Ho admitted that the pre sent state of the metropolis was bad enough, but not anything like what had been represented by his Hon. Friend to his left (Mr. Bernal). There could be no doubt that the cholera was spreading rapidly in the metropolis, anti unless something was done no one could tell what would be the consequences. Viscount EBRINGTON said that many of the nui sances in the neighbourhood of the House had been removed, and the drains under it were in a healthy state; but the exhalations from St. Margaret's Churchyard, which it was stated affected parts of the House, it was impossible for the Commissioners of Sewers to keep out. Mr. HENLEY wished to ask the Noble Lord at the head of the Government whether, when the Health of Towns Bill was brought in, ho and those who supported him were not the cause of the metropolis being left out of the provisions of that Bill ? Lord JOHN RUSSELL sail it was thought necessary by his Noble Friend at the head of the Woods and Forests that a separate Bill should be brought in for the metropolis. He had spoken to his Noble Friehd with respect to the introduction of that Bill, and he had told him that ho thought it would not be desirable till the Commissioners of Sewers had proceeded further to bring in the Bill. QUARANTINE LAWS. Mr. HUME wished to know from the Noble Lord at the head of the Foreign Department, whether any attempt had been made by the Government to obtain from foreign powers an alteration in the qua rantine laws, which so greatly affected the commerce of the country; and also, whether there was any intention on the part of the Government, after the report of the African Committee, to remove the squadron on the coast of Africa? Lord PALMERSTON said he had had communica tions with some of the foreign powers, as to some regulation being made with respect to the quarantine laws, and when he got their replies they should be communicated to the House. With respect to the other question, there was no intention on the part of the UJvarnalunt to.remove the squadron. HUNGARY. Mr. B. OSBORNE wished to know if the Govern ment had received any information of the advance of the Russian troops into Transylvania? Lord PALMERSTON said the Government had re ceived information of the advance of the Russians into Transylvania, and of their having got possession of Cronstadt. RAILWAY AUDIT BILL In reply to Mr. HENLEY, Mr. LABOUCHERE stated that he had placed this Bill on the votes for Monday, and that should he not be able then to proceed with it he would state when he would. THE SPANISH TARIFF. In reply to Mr. ROBINSON Lord PALNIERS (ON stated that the Spanish Go vernment had modified their tariff; but still the duties were so high, that they would continue to encourage smuggling. NEW SOUTH WALES. Mr. SCOTT inquired whether the Government had received from Sir George Gipps, the Governor of New South Wales, a dispatch suggesting the propriety of establishing a second chamber: also, whether the Aus tralian Colonies Bill would be taken on Monday, and if so, when it would come on. Lord JOHN RUSSELL proposed to take the Supply and Ways and Means before these Bills on Monday. Mr. HAWES would ascertain if such a letter had been received. JERSEY. Mr. EWART referred to the Commission that had been appointed to inquire into the criminal lAw of Jar fey, and inquired what had been done? Sir G. GREY said the correspondence had Lot yet terminated. THE SCOTCH BILLS. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he wished to state the course the Government intended to adopt with respect to the two Bills which affected Scotland, the Registration and Marriage Bills; and he had now to state that, after the discussion the other day, and the opinion expressed by the House in regard to the sentiments of the people of Scotland upon them, that it was not the inten tion of the Government to proceed with these Bills during the present session. —(Hear.) He thought he might state, at the same time, that the speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. M‘Neill), whom he he did not see in his place, had convinced him that the marriage law of Scotland was or-j,'etiote,ble, and that it was very desirable that it bhould Ritered. He, therefore, begged to move the orders of the day iu re spect to these Bills 'in order that they might be dis charged. The orders were accordingly read and discharged. INCU.sIBER ED ESTATES (IRELAND) BILL. Lord JOHN RUSSELL intimated that he did not in tend to proceed with this Bill until Monday, several Hon. Gentlemen having intimated that they could not attend at twelve o'clock. The Bill was accordingly postponed until Monday. JUDGMENT (IRELAND) BILL—ESTATES LEASING (IRELAND) BILL. In reply to Captain PECH ELL, Lord JOHN RUSSELL insinuated that he intended to proceed with these Bills at twelve to-morrow. SMALL DEBTS ACT. Lord D. STUART inquired when the Attorney- General intended to proceed with this Bill. Would it come on to-night? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he intended to bring it on as soon as possible. If possible, he would bring it on to night. VAN DIEMEN'S LAND. On the motion for going into a Committee of Supply, Mr. ANSTEY moved far an address to her Majesty, on the subject of certain illegal ordinances or acts of Council for the taxation of the people of Van Diemen's Land, the attempts of Lieutenant -Governor Sir W. Denison to intimidate the Judges of the Supreme Court of that Island into declaring such ordinances or acts to be legal, and the grievances complained of by the colonists of that island in their peti tion presented last year to her Majesty, and printed by order of this House; and that her Majesty may be pleased to direct the local authorities in future to respect the independence of the judicial functions of that Court, and also to signify her disallowance of any ordinance or act subsequently passed by the said Lieutenant-Go. vernor in Council, for giving to such illegal ordinances or acts the force of law. This motion, he said, involved as much the conduct of Earl Grey, as it did that of Sir William Denison, because he had neglected to advise her Majesty with respect to the memorial which had been transmitted by the inhabitants of the colony to the Government of this country. One of the charges in the memorial was, that the Governor, Sir W. Denison, had interfered, by private solicitation, with the Judges of the Supreme Court, in inducing one of them to absent himself for eighteen months on full salary, in order to enable the Government to appoint a successor who would give a decision in favour of the Crown in re ference to certain actions which were then pending be tween her Majesty and some of her subjects in the colony. He would conclude simply by moving the resolution by way of amendment of which he had given notice. Mr. HAWES was understood to say—but was very indistinctly heard amid the buzz of conversation in the House—that Sir William Denison, the Governor of Van Diemen's Land, in what he had done in the mat ters referred to by the Hon. Member (Mr. Anstey) had acted entirely in conformity with the opinion of the law officers of the Crown. Sir William Denison then ,passed an Act through the House, which was the 11th Victoria, which had come home; and there was a peculiarity about it, namely, that though it had come home, and had not yet received the sanction of her Majesty's Government, all proceedings under it were valid. He was unwilling to do anything which should reflect on Sir William De nison, as with one exception, and that would be better described as an error of judgment, there was no fault to be found with him. On what ground was it then that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman made this motion? There was no other point in this case to which he wished to call the attention of the House. Mr. HUME wished to know whether her Ma jesty's Government refused to lay upon the table the letter conveying the disapprobation of the Colonial Secretary to the Governor. It was fortunate that in such distant colonies there were independent men, and he believed that judges had always maintained a character for independence. If the Governor had done wrong in interfering with Judge Pedder, he thought that all the circumstances of the case ought to be laid before the House. He could not think that the House would be sati•fied with less than a disavowal of such conduct, coupled with an introduction of all the documents relating to this point. Mr. GLADSTONE said he thought the Government, in dissuading the House from calling for these papers, was right, as he could not see any advantage to arise from their production. He wished to observe that all co lonial judges had not that entire independence of the executive which they had in this country. He defended the conduct of Sir William Denison in his government of the colony, which entitled him to the gratitude of the House, which ought not to do more in this case than the Secretary for the Colonies thought requisite, particu larly as ample justice had been done to the Chief Justice. On these grounds he was prepared to support the reso lution of the Government. Mr. P. WOOD said if the case of Mr. Justice Pedder was to pass unnoticed, the position of a judge in a colony was not an enviable one for an honourable man to occupy. The misfortune in this case was that the Governor was a military man, and it seldom happened, in that case, that such a Governor and the judges went on amicably for three years together. The military . officer considered any disobedience on the part of the judge as an act of mutiny.—(Hear, hear.) When the judges in this case pronounced these ordinances illegal, the Go- Governor declared there was only one course open to him, and that was to suspend the judges. Judge Mon tague was removed far being in debt, and yet the gentle man who succeeded him had 25 judgments recorded against him, and so great a hardship had the colonists felt that removal to be, that they sent home a remon strance against it. He (Mr. Wood) had no feeling per sonally towards the Governor, but for the administra• Lion of justice and as owing to the character of the Judges, there ought to be a public reparation made for the injury the Governor committed on the judges of Tan Diemen's Land. Captain HARRIS charged the Hon. and Learned Member, who spoke last with attributing personal mo tives to Sir W. Denison, but he entreated the House not to form an opinion of that earnest and distinguished officer from what they had heard from the Hon. Member who received his statements in his brief. Mr. ROEBUCK cared not where his Honourable and Learned Friend found the facts he stated, for the ques tion was, were they true? He granted that the judges at first certified the ordinance laid before them for their opinion to be legal, but when the question was raised, and the matter discussed before the legal tribunals, of which they were judges, they decided according to their oaths, and against the opinion they had previously given. The Governor then interfered and removed them, which he denounced as mostarbitrary and unconstitutional. The Governor was a military officer, and he agreed with his Honourable and Learned Friend, when he said that the frame of mind of such men, accustomed, as they were at all times to command, rendered them ex tremely unfit to be constitutional governors of any solony. On the present discussion the Governor wrote a letter to Mr. Justice Pedder, telling him it would be extremely convenient for him if he absented himself for 18 months. The Hon. and Gallant Officer stood up to defend his profession, but was the character of the judges of no importance? What would have been said of the Government at home, if, when the Lord Chief Justice of England differed from that House some years ago, they wrote him a letter, telling him it would be expedient for him to go to Italy for a year and a half?—(Hear, hear.) But then, said the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge, the judges in the colonies were not like the judges at home. But why should they not be so, seeing that the lives and proper ties of the colonists were at their disposal?—(Hear, hear.) And, if they were not what they ought to be, shame on those who were the cause of it. He asked the Noble Lord at the head of the Colonies, was that the way to treat new colonies, and if it be not the first of their duties to watch over and guard the administration of justice? It was not on the former conduct of the Governor they were to decide, but on that one act, and in his opinion he had interfered with the pure adminis tration of justice in one of the most important colonies. Mr. E. DENISON should not enter into the merits of the question at either side, for it did not become him to do so, but this he might be allowed to observe, that he deeply regretted what had taken place. The question, however, before the House was, whether a certain dis patch should be produced, and he, for his own part, was most anxious that it should be done, for he had no doubt that the Gallant Officer referred to would be found to have discharged his duty on this, as on former occasions, with integrity and honour. The House then divided, when the numbers were— For the motion Against it ... •.. . 72 Majority —4B Mr. lIUME wished to ask whether the Government had any objection to produce the dispatch sent out by Earl Grey, disapproving of the Governor's conduct? Under any circumstances he should move for its pro duction. Lord J. RUSSELL observed that his Noble Friend at the head of the Colonial -office communicated to Sir W. Denison the disapprobation of the Government, but considering the difficulties under which the colony was placed, he did not think there was any use in giving more publicity to that disapprobation; he thought the better course would be not to produce the dispatch, and should, therefore, resist the motion. Mr. ANSTEY asked how it was the Government could refuse the production of the dispatch for which the Hon. Member for Montrose moved, when, on the 25th of April last, they consented to the production of the correspondence between Governor Grey and Sir W. Denison, on the taxation of the colony, and the removal of Judge Montague. Mr. HAWES said that had nothing to do with Earl Grey's dispatch expressing disapprobation at the removal of Judge Pedder. Mr. ROEBUCK said that in a population so dan gerous and disorganized as that in this colony, the Go vernor should be above all suspicion; and he thought if the dispatch was not produced, he could not safely, under the hidden censure of the Government, efficiently dis charge his duties. SUPPLY—ORDNANCE ESTIMATES. The order of the day was then moved for the House to resolve itself into Committee of Supply, and the Speaker left the chair, Mr. HUME hoped that the Ordnance Estimates might stand over till Monday, till it could be ascertained whether the report of the Committee now sitting would be ready this session, which wuuld enable him to spe:.k from facts and figures. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that it would be only fair to give the Government time to consider the evi dence taken before the Committee, when it was com plete, which they would not have an opportunity of doing, if the subject was to be brought before the House immediately upon the presentation of the report. Ile, therefore, could not consent to the postponement of these vtilinntea. , O. the vote of 361,895/ fur defraying :he ex r enses pay all rwanee s of the o : d n ariee and Regi n, ering departreeete, Mr. HERRIES e}id that the home should be ec• queinted wish the evil; ece t :ken. and see the report of the Corr moree bef ore agree j ug to this vote. M 3. CO I iDEN 110P , :(1 the Noble Lord would not per,ia,t in f rrcieg on this vote for the °id, ante Esti• ma es, as the report of the Cenrmittce would be in the hands of Members by Saturday next. The House should have sorer , kimele,lge of the recommendations of the Committee before being called upon to vete this money. He should oppose going into Committee on these estimates. Lord J. RUSSELL said the Noble Chairman of the Committee had told him that the report would be ready before this day, and, therefore, he had fixed these esti mates for to. day. With regard to the propositions of the Committee, the Government must have time to be able to say whethqr the proputitions of the Committee should be recommended for adoption or not. It would be attended with great inconvenience further to postpone . these estimates. The Government must be responsible for these votes, and they ought to have time for full con sideration. Sir J. GRAHAM said that the report of the Coin- . mittee was presented that evening, and the report and evidence would be printed, and in the hands of Members on Saturday next ; but he thought that, considering the numerous topics that must arise for discussion upon the t reading of the report, the House and the Government should have the fullest opportunity for consideration, 1 and he therefore thought, upon the whole, that it would ri be better to allow the Governmeut to proceed with'these ; estimates on their own responsibility. Mr. HUME was surprised at the conclusion which his Right Hon. Friend had come to. The allegation that the Government were ignorant was erroneous, for the Hon. and Gallant Member for South Staffordshire j (Colonel Anton) had been present, and no doubt was fully informed of all that had taken place. He (Mr. Hume) had not considered the report and evidence, and how seould he be called upon to vote upon this impor tant subject in the dark? Was it decent, after five months spent in this inquiry, that it should be passed by without notice? He moved that the Chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again. Mr. FOX MAULE said, that on Tuesday each Mem• ber of the Committee was in possession of the revised report. If this° estimates were to be discussed on Mon day on that report, it was doing neither justice to the House or to the eeGovernment ur , as they could not p co ossibly have time betwn Saturday and Monday to nsider the voluminous evidence taken by the Committee. Mr. lIUME said, the proposition of the Government was, in fact, to vote the money first and take the discus. sion afterwards. It would be tar better to drop the farce altogether, and vote the whole sum demanded in a lump. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ob served that the question really at issue was, whether the postpenement would put the House in possession of full ' information or not. —(Hear, hear.) He admitted that it was desirable it should be in possession of such infor mation, but they could not have both tne report and the evidence upon which it was founded for very many days to come, and looking at the late period of the session he put it to the House whether it would not be better to take the estimates now before the House into considers tion, and to give the Government full time for the contd. deration of the Committee during the recess, in order that next session they might be prepared to propose such ; estimates as in their judgment were necessary, and could be undertaken on the responsibility of a Government. It was clear that by merely postponing the discussion until Monday next they would not be any more prepared to discuss the question of prospective reductions than they were at the present memeet. Mr. BERRIES said there was one important question occurred to him—were they to abandon all hope of effecting any reductions during the present year ?-•• (Hear, hear.) Surely the Government, with its know ledge of what took place before the Committee, would not say that they were unprepared to make some reduc tions at least. If that was the case, then he felt that the grounds for postponement became stronger. If they had the recommendations of the Committee in their hands the House might perhaps save some money to the public before next session, and if they could do so it would no doubt give satisfaction. If, on the other hand, he was told that it was quite hopeless to expect any re duction, he would ask why the Committee was ever sr pointed?—(Hear, hear.) Why they did not vote the estimates at the commencement, instead of postponing them to the end of the session ?—(Hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL replied to the question, whether no hope of reductions could be held out during the pre sent year? Certainly not. When the Government had seen and considered this report they might be able to propose some immediate reductions. But he was sur prised that the Right Hon. Gentleman, with his know ledge of the public business, should suppose that a re port, which recommended the reduction of 1,300,0001 in the cost of a public department, could be adopted or dis missed by the Government, without the fullest consi deration and inquiry. To propose any sudden reduction would not be the proper course. At present he knew nothing whatever of one single reduction that had been proposed by the Committee, nor could he promise that he would be prepared to make any on Monday. Sir WILLIAM MOLESWORTH said the Noble Lord stated he did not know of a single reduction pro posed in the report. He would give him one. It was proposed to stop the military works at Bermuda, Mall' ritius, and the lonian Islands, and if the report was be fore the House, founded as it was upon the evidence of Sir George Grey, and other officials, he was satisfied that the reasons for that reduction were so irresistible that it would be sustained by the House. Sir JA viES GRAHAM reminded the Committee that the House had already voted the number of men which in the majority of cases governed the force re quired to be kept up by the Ordnance. There were only two items—stores and new works at home and in the co lonies—with which they could interfere; but it would not be prudent to do that without full inquiry. The Hon. Baronet (Sir William Molesworth) had referred to three places where the Committee recommended the sus pension of military works. The saving estimated was 30,0004 Well, nothing could be easier than when they came to that vote to move the reduction, and the Roe. Secretary to the Ordnance, as a member of the Com' mittee, would either be able to agree to, or to show rea' sons against it.—(Hear, hear.) There were other re. duciions he should feel inclined to propose.—(Hears hear)—but he did not think they should urge the Go vernment to make reductions before they had time to consider them. Mr. COBDEN really scarcely understood the Right Hon. Baronet. He deprecated rashness, and yet be called upon the House to vote some millions of money without information which would be in the hands of Members in two day s.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. • Baronet told them there were 10,000 questions in the Blue Book, but he ventured to-say that not one Member would read these 10,000 questions, and many would not open it. But the report of the Committee was an able summary of these questions, for which they were deeply indebted to the Noble Chairman—(Hear)—and embo died the principal evidence on which the report wag founded; and it they proceeded, now that report bad been presented, to vote money without reference to it, he could only say that it would tell trumpet-tongued the country that which it already strongly suspected, that the House, instead of being the guardian of the public purse, was merely a screen for Ministerial ex travagance,—(Cheers.) Colonel ANSON, after referring to some circum stances which had transpired in the Committee, said the Hon. Member (Mr. Cobden) seemed to use one language out of the House and another in the House. He implored the House to proceed with the estimates. He was there ready to answer any objections that might be made to the estimates now before them, and be was sure the Government would lose no time in considering the recommendations of the Committee. Mr. COBDEN complained as to the alleged difference of language that the circumstances had altered. The report had been finished sooner than they expected, and that changed the position entirely. Now that report was ready, he repeated that it was most marvellous and incomprehensible that they could not wait till Monday. Mr. SPOONER expressed his determination, if the Hon. Member for Montrose divided the Committee, to support him. He could not at all understand why, after waiting all the session for this report, and delaying the estimates for it, they should now be called upon to vote them, when the report was at last presented, without having time to read it. Above all, he was surprised to hear that the Government were ignorant of its re commendations, because he supposed its members would have communicated with the Cabinet as to its pro ceedings. Mr. F. MAULE assured the Hon. Member that he had not felt himself at liberty as a member of the Com mittee to'communicate to the Cabinet the proceedings of that Committee. Mr. SPOONER replied that the business of Govern ment might be carried on in a way totally different from every other, but if a committee was appointed by part ners to investigate the state of their affairs in ordinary lire, no doubt the partners would ask the members of the committee what they were doing from time to time, and what was the state of pirticular accounts.— (Hear.) Colonel RAWDON deprecated any further delay, as uncalled for, besides making that House take part of the Execu ive Government, instead of confining itself to its legitimate functions. He heped the Hon. Gentleman would not persist in his motion. Mr. HILDYARD said that if this Committee had been appointed in hostility to the Government, he could have understood the arguments that had been urged for voting the estimates that night without waiting for its report.—([fear, hear.) But, on the contrary, having been appointed by the Government, be could not com prehend shy they watched its recommendations with such jealousy. The Noble Lord said he was ignorant of its recommendations. The Hon. Member for Perth (Mr. F. Maule) said he had not felt at liberty to com municate them. Well, then, the Government was in ignorance of the report. Surely, then, the Noble Lord himself should not take the responsibility of proposing these estimates while ignorant of the report.— (Hear.) Then, was it just to the House to ask them to vote in ignorance, or, on the other hand, to suppose that they would run to the conclusion of the Committee without ji:d t ,ring for themselves? He thought not. All he bad heard convinced him that the Hon. Member sht uld per sist in his motion, to which he would give his cordial suppor', because he did not think that the public money should be voted away in this inconsiderate manner, merely to allow Members to get into the country a few days sooner.—(Cheers ) After a few words from Mr. PLUMPTRE, Mr. W. BROWN suggested that tney might go on with their estimates, and then the Members of the Com- mittee in their speeches could explain the reductions ihat had been recommindeit.--(Oh.) Mr. DUNCAN could not agree to that proposal. If the House was to take its opioion Irom the Committee, it might as well adjour❑ at once, and leave tLe Commit' tee to do all the work itself. It ever there was an ar gument in favour of the shortening of Fathom* it Imrely they h a the lint in adjut till Mor M. I vault N estimat. Air. eireuuas be prow Mr.] tided, for reps make. t hey ha he thou obstruct e! 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