The Sun. — London, England, 1815-03-01 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Ter.spAi, VE/3. - 24. The Heloon Voters' Bill, ttie Back 3 Milliiito.L • rein Amend- Anent Bill, and Freehold E.Vates's Bill, v.wc brotiglit up front the Commons, and read a firsttime. .. . TRIAL BY JURY IN SCOTLAND. The House went into aCommittee on the Scotch Trial by Jury Bill. The LoaD CHANCELLOR proposed a Clii”Se that the Jury should be unanimous. This clause was meetly inserted for further consideration on the report—but his own opinion was deciLledly in its fsvour and in this opinion the Marquis of Lans- Aown, Lord Erskine, Lord itedesdale, the Earl of Lauderdale, the Earl of Roslyn, and Earl Stan hope, concurred. . • • The Duke of MONTROSE and Lord IVlctvii,LE exrpressed themselves favourable to the bill, and Alt the Lords who spoke expressed their thanks the Lord Chancellor for the learning, - know ledge, judgment, and temper with which he had proceeded in regard to this bill. Lord 'STANHOPE seated, that on the :report he should propose att'_altetation ; providing that the Foreman ut the Jury should deliver the verdict as in England. ' After some flirty! ! conversation respecting amendinpnts, the. Bill'weut through the Committee, aia was reported.—Report to be fur ther considered on Friday.—Adjourned; HOW. OF COMMONS. The New Post Office Bill was read the first tine. Leave was given to bring in a Bill for,inaking egnal County. Rates in Lancashire. Mr. HILEY ADDINGJON had leave to liring in a Bill for procuring Accounts of Criminal Indictments, Trials, afid Cons'ict ons. The Bill was introduced, read the first time, and t.rdered to be read a second time to-morrow: Mr. LOCKHART stated his intention to move on the 14th of March fur leave to hring in a Bill to regulate the - sale of Growing Crops taken in Execution. A Petition was pr(-seated from Lancaster :fail against re peating the Insolvent Act. S:t.ne Petitions Were presented against the Corn Bill. 'Hie Ban', Loan Bill was read a third time. On the Report of the Jail Fees Abolition Bill, some con versation ensued-between Jr.N W. Dundas, Mr: Bennett and 141 r. Holford, and Sir J. 'Shaw, the latter wishing to intro duce a Clause enabling the City to levy a Rate cOrtesponding to the amount of Fees lost. The SPEAKER said that could only he done in a Commit ter q.t the whole, and for that purpose Bill must be re-com miit-cl, which Sir J.. Shaw moved. Mr. HOLFORD opposed it ; the amount of the fees being so inconsiderable as tis. 10d. on a debtor's delivery, it could he no great object to the Corporation of London. y The .Tailor of .Newgate had stated, that a debtor was never detained mire than two days beyond his time, whether from poverty or obstinacy he refused. to pay the fees. Sir J. SHAW said, that though the City bad considerable estates, they had a great expenditure to provide for. The motion was negatived, and the Bill ordered to be read a third time on Monday. In the Committer on the Bill respecting imported Citric of Limo, the addition of Is. per pound•was agreed to. The 11111 to exempt Packet Boats from Harbour Duties was read the first time ; second time to-niori ow. The L.,cal Puor Amendment Bill was read the second time. To !) e committed to-morrow. ADMIRALTY DROITS, &c. 11Ir. BENNETT noticed a sum of 9951. lately paid, and wished to know whether a public officer re tained- his situation after absconding from the country ? Also, whether the Chancellor of the _Exchequer would give any details to the House respecting a sum of 40001— paid to the Duke of York for entertainments given to his Royal High tress's brother-in-law, tile Kiug of Prussia He wished to know whether the First Lord of Treasury had received ally allowance for the en— tertainments lie gave to the Royal Personages ? (A Laugh.) _ _ _ The CHAVELLOR of the EXCITEQUER spoke in a very low tune of voice : we understoOd him to say, that the individual had wished to retire from his sditiation ; hat -that some circumstances bad prevented iks being: as yet filled up. - -As to the second question,.his..goyal Highness the Prince Regent had been ideat.e►l to order a grant to his illustrious brutiteY to Duke of York : hut lie was not aware that it was subject to any minute in quiry. The first Lord of the Treasury, be be lieved, had received no grant whatevet for his entertainments.. (A Laugh.) ORDER OF THE BATH. Mr. Gor,DoN obscrkd, that the new Order of the Bath was impOrtant it: the view of the pri vileges it conferred On individuals. Was the House to expect any contraunication of the subject, and bow were the expenses, it any, to be defrayed ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER Said, that be had received no commands 'front the Prince Regent to make any comtunnication to the lionse upon the subject. lie was not aware of additional expenses. DISENIBODYING THE "cum. Sci SAMUEL RomILLY said, he did not think it necessary to apologise for bringing agAin under the notice of the House a subject to which, in the. course of the present Session, be had already called, their - attention. If it remained exactly in the same situation as when he last noticed it, he should think, from its. great importance, that he was justified in imploring the 'House to give it the fullest conahleration ; but the fact was, that all the circumstances connected with it were now materially altered. At that'time more than five months had elapsed sine,;. the signing of the Pre liminary Treaty of Peace ‘vith France, and we -- IVeIT also in Nego c i a ti on w i t h t h e Envoys front .America for effecting a peace with that country. This likewise had since been accomplished, and now this country had been noit only nine months at peace with all the Powers of the Continent, but might also be considered . as at peace with the wh o le world ; for although the ratification of the Vi eliminary TteUty with America had not yet been received, there .tins - no reason to apprehend t h at t h e terms wmild - be rejected. " When he last no ticed this subject,. it , was asserted, that the Militia having . been called out, find embodied under the Act of the 42d of the King, it remained for the Crown alone to determine, under what circum stonces it shOuld be disembodied. lint the tact of a part of the remaining embodied for the long period of 12:oe months after a general peace the Contino:' - a - of Europe, was a thing' unexampled since that description of force had been first cErabliShed. The extreme importance of this subject mist be forcibly imp:-2sF,ed Upon every Initkd. It imposed a most scrions sNcri flee upon the lower orders of the people, by separating them from their families and occu iecting them to all the rigour of that of the mill vary ; chic the rich, on'the contrary, were riot at all affected by the operation of the measure, which they ~t a t rid of hy a pecuniary tax. It could not be drdiul that the sacrifices oldie mili tia-men were olds , sUbmit led to from absolute tie s . cessitv, and the grounds for their being called out were distinctly stated in the Act to be actual invasion, the dai n of invasion, or internal in surrection.'Even when the Act was first produced, so tenacious was the Legislature of the neces sity of imposing restraints upon the CrOwn, that it was expressly provided, that in no other cases shottld this force be called out but .1) i those h e -h a d mentioned ; and it was expressly ordained that -the King shoell publish the grounds tor calling it . out, in a Proclamation, if the Parliament be not sitting, or if sitting, to state what occasion exist ed for paling the measure in force. Tnis being the clear and incontestible nature of the law, - and no doubt whatever being entertained upon it, he would assert, With all perfect humility, that his opinion is, that at this moment, the keeping any part of the militia embodied is contrary to law. But, besides 'this, he understood that several of the men who bad been discharged were still ille gally detained. It therefore only remained to be said, what was the construction of the law, which involved no coMplicated intricacies. The learned Gentleman then. entered into a full explanation of the Act, from which he read a variety of extracts, and I:untended., that the doctrine now held, that when the King lied once called out the militia, .he had the liberty to retain them embodied for •stty length of time was illegal ; as thereby the only eerily which the militiaman had, that his liberty .. and life might not be sported with, was the re sponsibility of Alinisters. No doubt a great dis cretion was_and ought to be placed in the C'rplyn) as to determining when the causes for schlep the Militia had been called out had ceased ; het wlien it was clear to every ni*ti in the kingdom that all possible causes bad act'ually ceased, there could rental%) no great grseted 6)1. discussion. But if Lis Majesty's Ministers could say that at this Moment any one of the causes exist, with the least appearance of reason and truth, he, would not make this appeal to them. But he would say, as his own opinion, that there never had been a time during the whole course of his Majesty's reign when the causes fur calling the Militia out had snore. completely ceased. It Was a maxim of common sense, that when causes had ceased, their effects ,must cease 'also ; and he would defy Ministers to produce any 'instance of the Militia remaining embodied except (hiring the existence of actual war with an enemy. _Even at the conclusion of the last war, when nobody entertained a sanguine belief that the peace would be permanent, Ministers did not think themselves justified in keeping up this force, but disembodied the whole of it within five weeks after the Treaty had been signed. The period was not so long past, but that the House must recollect the con sequences of the ambitious strides of the then First Consul of France, when he made secret Treaties of Peace, and obtained large territories by invasion or fraud ; this was between the signing of the Preli minaty and the Definitive Treaties. Yet it was within a fortnight after the news had arrived, that the Secretary of State ;:cought in a-Bill to aug ment the Militia, and . urged. as a reason, that it was necessary to infuse a military spirit amongst the people ; and the Bill had actu lily passed, be fore the Treaty of Peace came under discussion. Ministers must, therefore, hate thOught, that this was a time When their duty called on them to avow wliat MIS the construction of the law ; and they then did not dare to assert the same con struction of it which they do now. .On the con trary, they disbanded the Militia, and immediately' called theta out again. The Learned Gentleman then proceeded to comment upon the opinion lately given ',by the Law •Otlieets of the Crown, who, on being applied to for Temoving all doubt as to the constrasetion of the A l ct, - had transmitted their opinion to the Secretsery of State, who had sent it to the Commander in Chief's . Office, from whence it had been circulated amongst the Com manding Officers of the Militia regiments. lie contended that it was the duty of the fsawOfficers to argue such a subject ; and that. it was not right to take their mere opinion as an authority for re moving all doubts upon it : they should have acted the parts of advocates between the Crown and the People, and not that of Judges. Yet amongst those who had given the decisive - opinion to which he had alluded, was the Chief Justice of Chester ; and other Judges, who might after wards be called upon to try causes in which their own .opinion had been previously formed.— . Ile then read the circular letter alluded to, and denied that the construethin of the Act by the Law Officers was just, that there was nothing imperative in it as to the time when the militia should be embodied, after they bad been once call ed out. To what a situation, Le observed, should we be reduced, if we suffered the word expediency 'to usurp 'the place of that of necessity—(Hear, hear') Minister's thus may take men away from their homes, and - keep theta fromitheir fa milies, and employments, .not as long as is necessary for the safety of the count r y, b ut as long as they thought expedient, and there is no remedy but the responsibility of Ministers. Was that, "he would ask, a sufficient protection, or even a sufficient consolation for the People ; There was no country whatever in which the ,Ministers of the Ciown were not respOnsible for their conduct ; but what greater (Langer could await a country, titan that Minister's should do what they think expedient, merely upon their own responsi bility ? Our ancestors, by the very construction of the Act, had thought it . necessary to guard against such an encroachment. But it must now be nuderstood, that his Majesty's Ministers may, at the present moment„ according to the opinion of the Attorney and Solicitor Geueral, call out the whole of th e Militia that had just been disembo hied, in con sequence o f an y turn the neg oc i at i ons may take at Vienna ; for the keeping of only °n Militia regiment. on foot-en a bl es t h em to call out all the rest, Nrithout any of the .safeguards which ~ the law had provided for the people. The L earu ed Gentleman then went into an elaborate ct;mpa ri3oll between the Local and the Regular Militia, and concluded with. observing. that tha- terms upon which they %vere ought not .to cease also .? The tendency of the doctrine now laid down was, to leave every thing hifilliensome under the Aa, and , take away . every thing berte ficid; for they maybe thus cruelly retained in the' service till ail the petty sytabbles amongst the fo reign Powers, and the pitiful ambition of those rrsons in their contentions for territory shall 'lc: satisfied ; nay, tVell till' the great force v,iiich nisters think it necessary to keep on the Conti nent, shall be recalled home. The Learned (Jen tleman then concluded with moving,— " That. nine months baying elapsed since the signing of the Definitive Treaty Of Paris,• and this Country being now at peace with the WhOld world, no causes are now in ex istence for continuing any part of the Militia embodied." Mr. BATHURST cosplimenos.l the Learned Gen man for having very fairly stated his own opinion'• upon the subject ; but it appeared that he had • only taken- a partial view of the matter, and had omitted to notice one part which he had, perhaps, thought not necessary to the question. He had - not alluded to our exact situation with respect to America, as . we •were actually at war with that power when be made his former remarks ; and he must know that we are carrying on the war at this Moment, and must continue to do so until peace is completely attained. With respect to oar foreign relations it has been thought necessary to keep up large .military forces, till every thing is settled on the Coutineitt ; and thus our situation, so far from being ditfeeent from what it was when. the Learned Gentleman spoke on the subject before Christmas, it is in feet ex s • actly the same.- - The propriety of keeping our. forces on the Contiueat is a topic on which other considerations are.existing. Ile thereforethought that the Learned Gee - dent-an had varied the point, because, before he did draw . rlistinction :)&![ wc:en the spirit and the legality of the act; but at present his remarks could not be considered as a fair con-, striiction air. Ile (Sir S:Romilly) has admitted, that in the words of the Act, there was no limita tion to .be found as to time, and lie had core reedy described the circumstances under which-, the Militia might legally be called out ; but he. (Mr. outburst) contended, if it had been designed that the,litia should not he kept embodied. after • the cause which .originally called them outslad• ceased, the settle caution would have been obServ ed in providing for their being disbanded, as was. thought necessary when describing the circum stances under,wl.iich they were to be etnbodied. The had been kept up undee existing cir cumstances on the responsibility .of Ministers.. The i-lon. and Learned Gentleman had worked himself up to say,- while speaking of the responsiss bility of Mini,4ers . , that the' Ministers of every country were responsible. • Did the Hen. and Learned GehtleMan reallymean to assert this ? if he did, he (Mr: Bathurst) could wish to know what he meant by. responsibility. If he meant they were responsible to the Despot whom they. served,- he would admit the fact, but he would deny that they were responsible to the people. The measure of keeping Op the-Militia did not in this instance rest wholly on the responsibility of Ministers, as it had the sanction of Parliament, who, six months after the peace was concluded, Lad sanctioned their remaining embodied, by voting - in supply the stuns wanted for their pay, clothing, &c. That llouse had negatived the motion brought by the Hon. and Learned Gentle man; 'and immediately after voted for the con tinuance of the Militia for two Months: longer.— Under these circumstances, be. contended, this measure in question, •therefore, (he repeated it)., was not one which rested on the mere responsi bility of Ministers, but on the _admitted necessity of the case. With - the , view the lion. and Learned Centleman took Of the subject, why, instead of .. bringing forward abstract leiestions, did lie not move the House to address the Crown to recall - the army now abroad, or to withhold the sup plies demanded to pay and maintain them ? The Hon. and Learned Gentle Man had seemed disposed. to assume that the country could only be•in dan-; gee of invasion .from a oeighbouring country. — Would it be maintained that means were not to be taken to guard against - such an event, not only w hen we were at war`with France, but also when we were at war . with Spain, with Russia, 'with Denmark, or any other country ? But the Mili tia had not been called out merely when invasion. was actually expected. At the time Lord North called out the Militia, he . had stated invasion to ben Mere bugbear. The principle bad been ad mitted, that the Militia were to be kept embol died to enabre the•G6vernment to, sehd out the regular army, when this because necessary for the_ security of the country. , The propriety of using the Militia in this manner must be acknowledg ed ; for ought a nation like this to keep her ar mies in a state of inactivity, till an ambitious Monarch, her enemy,' having conquered Moscow or Vienna, was enabled to tarn. all his forces to her - subjugation ? If it was legal to use the Ali"- litia, that'the regular force might be 'sent on fo reign service, it must be, felt Ministers, under-the present circumstances of the country, were justi fied in not disembodying it. Though peace was signed, we were not yet in a state of peace with America, and a considerable British force was at present necessarily employed on the Continent of Europe. This situation of things made it expe, client to keep the Militia embodied after the war was' considered to be terminated, and doing this Ministers had the concurrence of Parliament. He d e f en ded the. conduct of Ministers in Continuing to keep up some particular regiments of Militia which had been ordered to be disembodied. This at the time was faund expedient ; and did the Hon. and Learned Gent. mean to say it was the duty of Ministers to take the opinion of the Judges on the subject, before they decided on such a measure ? With the opinion Of one of his Learned Friends (the Attorney General), the lion. and Learned Gent. had quarrelled on account of his being a Judge. This was a little remarkable, after he had expressed a wish that the opinion of the Judges should be given on the subject.-- He had also objected tsi the appointment of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to one of- the situa tions he had the honour to boa This appoint !vent he defended at some length, and stated the two situations to have been formerly held at the same time by the late Lord Kenyon, who he be tts..-sd ss, st_ _ r Militia cm:cc called cat, agalu contended, alig;it legally be kept embodied by Ministers so long as /the sittultion ofithe country made such a measure expedieut. The argument of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman when speaLing of the Peace with Ame rica, if he were disposed to take it up, would go to,-justify .Ministers in keeping up the Militia in time .of Pcace, lest America, or France, or,soine :,other should not he faithful to its engage' ments. When the Militia was disbanded after the Peace of Amiens, things were on quite a ditf.:fent fOoting from what they had been in since the Treaty of Paris. The Peace at the time that measure was resorted to had been definitively con cluded. Since the last Peace was signed, great questions had still been pending ; part of out regular army was necessarily employed on the Con tinent, and to supply their place it had been nc•. cessary to keep up the M litia. When this sub lea was last brought before the House, it badl been truly stated that more regiments of Militia would be di3embodied as •soon as this cotild be safely done. This promise had been observeda and the remainder would he disbanded as soon as that conclusion had been put to the pending fle' guciations which they had every reason to hope and to believe would shortly take place. Head' mitted the cause of the Militia having been called out, but he maintained that circumstances bad justified its being kept up. The principle 0 3 which Ministers had acted in this instance bad been recognised by Varliameot in the distinetiou made between' the old Militia and.the,Locai in determining with respect to the latter, a lter what period it should be disembodied. The Ite gular Militia had always been intended to be left to the discretion of Ministers on their responsibility, subject to the controul of Par liament. He denied that this force so kept up with the consent of Parliament %vas at all to be compared to a standing army, and repelled the made by the Hon. and Learned Gentle." man as to the injury which the Militia itself must . Sustain from the course pursued by Ministers on this occasion. As to the evils complained of with respect to the persongl feelings of the individual' iii the Militia, who were kept from their homes , _compulsorily made to serve, and subjected to the lash, to use the words of an Hon. Baronet-7-4 (Sir S. Romilly said he had not used such words.) ----Mr.Bathurst.had uttered them as the words of an Hon. Baronet. This was the - picture drawn of per Sons subjected to military' discipline. Ili the Militia, however, it would be found that not more than one in ten served for himself ; ,rest were substitutes, serving from choice. H e did not mean to undervalue the sacrifices litt,,d el by these persons, but asserted them to be nece''' . sary for the general good of the countryt Thep might timink their case hard when they saw other corps disembodied, hut this was but a compara tive and not an absolute hardship. They migh t think it unlucky that their regiments were 11 0 r among those who were disbanded but while a partial disembodying of the militia was not tny lawful, this could not be prevented. The Rigl 4 Hon. Gentleman briefly recapitulated his objet' lions to the principle of the motion, and asserted, that what had been done by Ministers ih the pre' sent instance, bail already received not merely tu e ` tacit, but the positive approbation of Parliamen t ' • Mr. ABERCROMBY supported the motion at val e length. The grand reason why the Militia we re not disembodied was now acknowledged to be tha supposed necessity of keeping British troops ma Ilauders, for the fear of a rupture of the, beg ° ' ciations at the Congress. Ile 'found notbinP A ' however, in' the Militia Act _which authoris e ' :heir being kept up front a view to political con; sequences. He knew, from good authority, t fr3 c the circumstance of some regiments, being keP., emimidied, while others were disbanded, had bee' felt most deiTly by the men : and it also nolo; Qmately happened, that those regiments • had sheu'n the greatest zeal by volunteering th e i , services for Ireland, bad been the greatest- - ferers;by the very circumstance of their abse'' from England. • The aon. F. DOUGLAS said, that while NT: Y . e w e re 0-4 in a state of war, the country might always be c ° hr sidered as in danger of invasion. Our coast inig l a from time to• time be exposed to the landing 3 ; e5 depredations of the crews- of these large frig 0 1 emplOyed in time American service, as well 35 0 0 their numerous privateers, and the Militia vo i ri be a force well adapted to protect the countrY tii , such eases... The motion, therefore, had bis cited opposition. • I.l** The ATTORNEY-GEI4ERAL said, that sevcr° - ° serVations which had been made by his Holt. Learned Friend who brOught forward the pre sc : t o motion, made it absolutely necessary for hi ln „, ) , say something in vindication of that opt" ell which his Hon. and Learned Friend had SO commented upon. In the course of these e° 4o ments, his Hon. Friend had stated that ther e lc; no difficulty in the case—nothing technical bef .in short, nothing which any - Country g efi n 'ora might not easily have answered. For his ;di part, it was not his wish to take the meage r " h the talents of country Members ; 1 „tat doubt but most of them .were perfeCtly to form a fair opinion on the meaning of at' t 5 0. of Parliament ; and perhaps, bad the opinie°' many of them been individually asked , bicw would very much have accorded' with that s '" -a' be had given. He could have wisln'd t"' 3 , t ,Ther 4 " i vernment had taken the legal opinion o f lip who stood high in the profession. f` te 'oo`; had no doubt in his own mind,.tbat if his .1:1 0° IP Learned Friend had been applied to fo r 3 , ca 0 : 4 opinion, he would have decided in the sol. e . as he and the Solicitor4;eneral had guarding himself with certain distinctions* rol'egi it was well known most Gentlemen in th e i rdpig° sion-usually made use'of. He Vindicated 'd e rei against the observation which bad been ro` l fro tio t sleeting his holding, two olliecs, on the t OP; of the same thing havin:! been clone by a op the as honest, and as good a Judge as ever s ` ll I t Bench. He also alluded to an opinion scb.rjodges; been given on a military point by ell the / o t)e, t with the great I .dat .;r Jot Mansfield lC.l ue • i f t° the question was, " whether an Office r coo l , left the army could legally be tried by `r te qo o l „ Martial, for. an offence committed before . 01 , ted the service." Their undivided opi"! (Itild