The Sun. — London, England, 1820-05-20 00:00:00

• ;i rci.• „J• I 1 k,r. Ile ist Pa i be rrfe' ;iiiv i * ,11 irl ;e t' A itte tie ol Lat , l t tli o if 1)001" re 4" Abe' co"'. to ol/ 0 1 111 w WI ;nu! elf 410,r9 fol- .mentiry Reforril Was prounded on the asst rt ion that there were whole tlasses of men onrepresented. This Was true ; belt there was now en opportunity to remedy this defect in a particular case, and the opportunity ought 'tot to be lost. To throw the Borough Open to the Hundreds would not be to create a new class or voters, but giving two votes to the Same persons. Could this be called a reniedy i The real object which the opponents of the mea sure had in view was, that the [louse should do nothing which savoured of Parliamentary Reform. If the House were legislating for the first time, they might be told, are you aware of the danger Pf giving the right of voting to a numerous popu lation at so cheap a rate as a yearly tenement of 51. value ? But this was no innovation. This Was s P"ken of in a County where it had been t ried• lie was convinced, that if the town of Manchester had the right of sending two Mem . hers to Parliament, and seas governed as other Oaces by good municipal officers, it would greatly Contribute to its tranquillity. He did not believe that were the elective franchise transferred to Leeds, it would make any addition to the strength of that side of the House to which he belon g ed. He thought, on tl,e contrary, that if they could secur e bill one of the seats, they would be per ' fettly satisfied. The only persons which he con ceived might he dissatisfied the present mea . sure, should be the violent Reformers, as it would dein ive them of their strongest argument, that the House would never do any thing to purify it self, He knew, however, by the speech of the Noble Lord, that no hope of any thing being done could he entertaiord, and that Cornwall would keep its forty.four Members. Fortunately, -however, the Noble Lord did not intend to op pose the second reading of the Bill, so that there would be a further opportunity of discussing the subject after the holidays. He therefore recons- Mended to Gentlemen (halite , that period to con salt their friends and the feelings of the country, and if they were then convinced that the present measur e was fit to be entertained and likely to rive general- satisfaction, he trusted they .would support it with their votes. Mr. WYNN could neither agree with the Noble Lord opposite, that the present case required the lame remedy as had been applied in former in stanees,nor that precedents were indispensable. The Present Parliament were as free to fix on a remedy a s the last, and if they could find a beer one, they mere not bound by any thing that had hitherto , "ken place to reject it. In the case of Gram- Plund, corruption had beets proved to prevail so emelt more generally titan in the other Boroughs which had been thrown open, that he thought the House might, without any compunction, de• Prive it of its Franchise. But if that right were taken away, there was no reason that it should be give n to the Hundreds who already had votes for th e County. This was therefore, he conceiv- V, an opportunity for transferrin the Elective l'ranchise, rather than for enlarg g ing it. With respect to the mode in which the transfer should be made, he should prefer that which he under stood was to be proposed by the Hon. Member for Northumberland. The greatest inconvenience arose , fr om t h e i mmense extent o f Y or k s hi re, an d the n umbers of its population. The right being diffusedi amon g st th a t mi g hty m a ss became almo s t _b _ e Collected bvailable for it was impossible that it should into one place, or that means should be form e d for its conveyance. This, too, was an e Which would increase every day, and it what "ow proposed were not done, it would foice Itself oltimately upon the House. He therefore ° tight it v er y p ro p er t h at Y or k sh i re s h ou ld b e d ivided, th a t t h e N ort h Ridi ng should return two k itibers and the West Riding an equal num ner, There were many objections to throw , ! open tfae Borough to the Hundreds. AaCry perso n w h o h a d a vote f or W otton B assett t also a vote for two other boroughs. If etite ele ct i ve franchise of Grampound were extend tt.tt." to the Hundreds they would contain no less s five boroughs. I t certa i n l y cou ld not b e le arned prop er t o ma k e t hi s a ddi t i on to t h e .„ pu ndreds which were already so fully provided. ilt)e Should t h ere f ore support the proposa l o f t h e _n• Membe r f or N ort h um b er l an d. Th e trans fer_.,) of th e e l ect i ve franchise to Leeds he did not tctln.ceive so advantageous, yet it it should appear 4 . ‘ ;' ) .R to th e H ouse , h e s h ou ld not oppose i t, s ;;: 11 would on ly b e in case those two propo aitous sh ou ld f a il , that he shou l d feel d i sposed to g i‘ e i e with t h at o f the N o b le L ord opposite. t ot SUMNER thought the House would give 41 : t oo just a h an dl e f or the i mputat i ons cast up of it : if they dealt n o t itt the present case in some t hC e modes p ro p ose d. H e t h ere f ore felt meat t h e g st a i t n to.th e N o bl e L or d, w h o h a d ta k en up vo ore ' D iect: %He conceived that nothing could be li on _ conclusive than the arguments used by the again uar ti bi_ „ Member who bad just sat down, C est C t ne proposition of his Noble Friend (Lord I'r°Perri"gh)• He thought them insuperable. da t i on 3'. he was of opinicm, should be the loon- Representation, and this principle would te.eatablished by transferring the elective Iran "lmeo to the County of York. Ile hop e d thi s of Peer not be the only case, and that the Boro ug h • h e Yo would be taken up too. In th a t c ase be fn should hope that two Representatives would o ct for each of the Ridings of Yorkshire. to movvßau-MottT stated that it was his intention as an Amendment in the Committee ridarttis,ththeeCounty of York be ' divided into two , one consisting of the North and East • ng, the tine franch. other of the West, anti that the elec on_ e lse be transferred from Greuspouud to ital.!): se divisions. sta.e•of should not have spoken on this i tf the Bill had Sot o f oe provisions been erea:gbe filled up ' in the Committee .. But Gentle wouldolen eedree?lleet, that this was a Bill for wi re e . 1 -f air into a Borough, and not merely all: • 1 1 . ancluse Grampound, a point on which Gear Pinions were • agf eed. The Right Hon. ile I ierney) had carried the prinei *tile Noble Lord himself ; for he Yee"led to I tit that Grampound was completely " 'butsoed, d that tect ~p an two seats remained to be e Gram pound forth 11:e ilea Bill representation. This was not the of th e N o bl e L ord provided for '.) l. !be cutup e lectors, and created them voters • Tbis was very different from ex g their political rights, and even should the transfer be *ifteied, be .i;id not kloY that lie shoold agree to this soft of compensar ion. 1r wis from that sorvivance of-pitrt of the right of Gram pound that be deliver! this ground for wishing to pursue the course atfop ed in former instances, that of oveewhelining c •trupt ion by the addition of a strong independent body. But should the Home determine in favour of the transfer, he could have no hesitation in saying that he should prefer the mode proposed by the Honourable Member for Northumberland. To the present Bill, its preamble, anti enactments, he should offer opposition in every stage. He apprehended that the principle of the wild theories of Reform, was the universal diffusion of the elective fran chise, and if be looked at the preamble of the Bill lie roomd sentiments recorded which tended .o confirm those doctrines. If he looked at its de tails, he found the tight of suffrage made so wide, 99 to throw what the House considered popular representation into the shade. Every person having held a tenement . worth five pounds a year far only six months, was to enjoy 'the right of voting. Now there were few places in England which possessed so extensive a right, and many where it was tar more limited. If Parliament at this day proclaimed th :r such was the principle of representation, instead of diffus ing general content, it - would' erect a standard by which other towns would compare the mode in which:Alley enjoyed 'the right of suffrage, and would disturb the peace of those who were now fully satisfied with their lot. He was, therefore, glad that not one single Member, with the excep• :ion 01 the Noble Lord himself, had declared that he would vote for the' Bill as it wai. Most had expressed a preference in favour of transferring the elective franchise to Yorkshire, a proposition in which he should feel himself dispoied to unite, if that if his Noble Friend did not meet with the concurrence of the House. 'He admitted that be looked with jealousy to the introduction of the principle of Parliamentary Reform, and that be was reconciled to it only on the ground of necessity, and in consequence of an existing evil. He could on no account agree to the enumeration of a proposi tion which led to the admission of a principle, the consequences of which might proceed muck further than the House intended to go. He was for throwing Grampound -open to the Hundreds ; and if, after that, some other Borough should be guilty of similar corruption, the transfer of the elective franchise might take place. In this he hoped he should not be consi dered as avowing a wish that such a case might arise ; on the contrary, he trusted that the lesson now to be given would prevent its recurrence ; that it would have the force of a warning, and would act as a beacon, to teach ether boroughs possessing similar rights to take care how they abused them, With this guard upon his senti ments, he should be disposed to consider the mea sure as candidly as any gentleman' who might be impelled by other views. He should prefer trans ferring the elective franchise to Yorkshire (sup posing the plan of his Noble Friend not to be adopted), because there the House would not be under the necessity of creating the right of vot iog. He thought it of great importance to take hold of some fixed principle, and the principle on which be wished to act was, that the transfer should be made on a basis that was already esta blished. If he must agree to a transfer, let it be to those who already enjoyed the right of voting. If he most retoim, he preferred reforming w i t hi n the circle of the Constitution. To attempt to create a new right, would be to furnish matter for endless discussion ; for all might differ as to the proportion of the numbers by whom that right should be exercised. It appeared that in 1800, the population of Leeds was 53,000. In 1810 it had in creased to 62,000, and it -might be presumed that if it bad continued to augment in the same ratio, it must now be about 75,000. [Here Lord J. Russell said 70 000].—Well, out of these 70,000 allowing 35,000 to be.rnales, and leaving out about 10,000 for nonage, the rest of the male population might be estimated at '26,000. Now the Noble Lord proposed, that not less than 8,000 of these should enjoy the right of voting. If this was not universal .suffrage, it would a t least create a belief that Padiament preferred an extension of the representation much greater than other places possessed. In the town which he bad the honour of representing, though the popu lation exceeded 100,000, the number of voters was only 4,000. The proposed arrangement would therefore create invidious comparisons and general discontent. It was said in the case of Wooton Bassett, that the same freeholders had a right to vote for three boroughs, but this would not happen in the present, for when the neighbouring hundreds should have receivedGrem pound, they would be saturated, and could take in no more votes. Time could be no object in transferring the elective franchise from Gratnpound to another place, when it was confessed by the Bill itself that voters would remain to be provided for, and that no other Borough bad yet been thrown open-in Cornwall. lf, after this, any other case of corruption should arise, the Noble Lord should have his admission, that a case of necessity was made out, and that it was proper a transfer should take place. He only Wished for some.de lay before such a measure should be adopted, and that the House should act by Grampound as it had done by Penryn. Should a second case then occur, he repeated that the Noble Lord would find there was no difference between them. He would take this course at present, in the hope of pre venting a recurrence of similar corruption ; h o t, it it should re-wear, it would overpower his re sistance, and he should give way. -Mr. WYNN, Mr. CANNING. and Mr. H. SUM NER, having mutually explained, Mr. GRENYELL gave his unqualified approbation to the Bill, so tar as it concerned the disfranchise ment 4 Grampound ; but he should preter thFit the elective franchise should be transferred to York shire, or some other county, instead of the town of Leeds. As to what leis Hon. Friend (Mr. H. Sumner) had said respecting Pettryn, be really thought that he could not have read the evidence produced on that case. lie would not else have so totally mistaken the bearings of the question. The evidence had proved th.t in the Boiough of Grampound almost all the Electors had been guilty of corruption. But at Peuryn,'out- of 300 Elec tors, bribery bad only been proved against eight. Would it be consistent then for the House - to punish 300 innocent individuals for the siike of eight criminals ? Should any morsure he intro duced into the House with such a view, he should do his duty in resisting it to the utmost of his power. ►slr. D. GILBERT bore testimony to the tespee tahility of the two Hundreds t►► which the elective franchise of the Borongh of Grampound would he extended, should that Mode of proceeding be adopted by the House. The voters, 4e conceiv ed, Would be as independent as any county elec tors. With respect to tl►e other modes ntoposed, he should certainly prefer that of which the Hon. Member for Noll humbelland had given notice, to that brought forward by the Noble Author of the Bill. lie then represented the evils likely to proceed from too (lit ect and general a dleleg►ation from the people. An assembly so constituted would engross the whole authority of the State, and atter sweeping Monarchy itself from the face of the land, would go through all the rounds of Revolution, till it ultimately settled in military despot►sm. He bad no fear that the transfer of the elective franchise from Grampoimd to Leeds would have that effect ; bur considering that rnea• Sure as the first step to such a system, he thought that it was one against which it became the House to be guarded. Sir J. NewpoaT. contended that ,Cornwall had already a greater share of the Representation of the Country than it had a right to command, , He approved of the proposed transfer to the county of York, and wondered at the objections started by the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Castlereagh) against making wealth and population the basis of representation. For that was the very prin ciple on which that Noble Lord had acted when Irelanii had been united to the British Empire. He had then taken the amount of the population and the taxes as the grounds of representation, and had carried that system to such a length, that when two places were found exactly alike, lots had beets drawn to decide which should have the preference. He thought that it was a wise and just practice, which did much credit to its author, and which ought to bring; upon the Noble Lord the reputation of one of the greatest practical Parliamentary Reformers that had yet existed. Lord CASTLERBAGH explained. 11r. WARRI3 expressed his disapprobation at the fate, which it required no great sagacity to see, awaited this Bill. Like other good Bills that had been brought in, and which were smiled on by the Minister at the time, be had no doubt that this Bill would be made quite a different measure when it came out of the Committee, tram that which it appeared when it went in. He was no, wild Re fOrmer, bothe thought this Bill went to effect a moderate Reform, in a way that conld not alarm the most timid. He should therefore give it his support, and he hoped that Ministers would give it their most serious consideration before they de cided to oppose the object pf the Noble Lord: Mr. W. SMITII 'argued, that if taxation and po pulation had not appeared to the Noble Lord to suggest the best grounds for granting the elective franchise, be would not have adopted it on a for mer occasion with respect to Ireland. By acting thus, he could not but think that the Noble Gold had sumilied 4 testimony to the goodness of this principle, which . he would now find it extremely difficult to get rid of : he did not see why the Bo rough of Urampound should be thrown open to the County of Cornwall. In no case did it ap pear to 1111:11 that this could be necessary or proper: he wished to know what great difference there would be between a housekeeper in the to .vn of Leeds paying scot and lot, and inhabiting a house for which he paid 51. per annum rent or upwards; and a 40s. Cornish freel►older? He thought the former likely to be quite as much enlightened as the latter. Mr. D. GILBERT remarked, that his Honourable Friend, the Member for Norwich, had himself, when he first came into that House, represented the Borough of Carnel:ord—he felt inclined to ask of his Hon. Friend how he 'got in for that Borough ? Mr. W. SMITH had certainly represented a Bo rough, and was free to state that the means by which he got in were perhaps mot such as would meet with the public approbation of that Hense. Mr. BATtritasT said, it was admitted on all bands that the Borough of Grampound was placed in such a situation by its misconduct, that some measure became necessary to present a recurrence of that which was the subject of complaint. It, however, did not follow that it was to be dis franchised. In similar cases the House had not disfranchised the offending Borough, but, by throwing it open to the adjoining Hundreds, bad admitted a number of purer irOters 'to counteract the evil. The question now was, what was the best to be done - with the Borough ire question ? To him it appeared that the 'preferable course would be to throw it open to tire.adjoining Hun dreds, as had been done , in tbe ease ot the other Boroughs. This was sanctioned by the practice of the House of Commons down to the last time of their meeting. It was admitted by the Noble Lord that there were voters in the Borough of Grampound whose interests ought to be consi dered, and the Borough upon the whole had not been proved to be more corrupt than Shoreham, if it had been proved to be equally corrupt. He therefore, in the present case, Saw no reason for adopting a remedy entirely new in its character. Mr. Hontropsa supported this Bill on princi ples very oiffereot from those avowed by some of its supporters; be supported it because it would go to prove that the House were disposed to adopt some system of reform; and this he would have stated but that he was afraid his alliance on this occasion would be as injurious to the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) in that House, as the alliance of the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Castlereagh) had been to biro in the Country. It there were Reformers who were not disposed to accept any thing short of the whole of their demands, he was not one of them. He was grateful for any thing that might be .given in port of the rights claimed by the people of this Country, a nd lie th,refore thanked the Noble Lord (Lord J Russell) not only for what he had done now, but for what he had done on former occasions, lie then briefly set forth the advantages which would result trout a Reform, which, lie contended, far from destroy log the blessings of the Coustitutiou, would Clltt• ble the Crown to maintain true dignity, while the people would gratefully fed that they were hi possession of the Government to which, by their true and ancient Con:ritotion, they wcre Mr. EDW. WAED rene,rked, thc.t a Clause could he introduced in the Committee to elf ct any al- Iteration that those who were dissatisfied it in its present torn might desire to mote ; and, therefore, on every account it appeared to him proper to let it go to the Committee. ‘Vhichever of the plans now suggested !should be adopted, he thought the result would be a specits of Par y Reform, effeeted in a way the l eas t likely to alarm those who were opposed to the views of Reformers in general. Oti evety account the Bill ()tight to be allosved to be read a second time, and passed to a Corniniit , e. Lord J. Russat.L, in itply, complained of the Noble Lord opposite, -tor opposi , g his motion on such weak grounds as those lie had sup ported himself on that night. It appeared that he (Lord Castleteagh) hid little in' say, but that the measure which be. (Lord J. Russell) pro. posed was diffes cot from that adopted in the case of Shoreham ; but this was as well known iu December last as it was now. lie could see no substantial ()hive ion to the transfer which he proposed. In Cornwall, the population ktiooonted to 217,000, arid 44 Members were refitment. in Yorkshire there was a population or 303,000 per ,Ons, and but 32 membeis were reit:rued. lo tine totmer cases one member was returned for every b,000; in the latter hot one was returned for every 12,000 persons. Under such circumstances he cook! see no solid objections to tire transfer of the elective franchise trout Cornwall to a town inYotk - shire. He was glad, as he was opposed to a cer tain class of reformers, to have an opportunity of proposing the reform which Ire now jiroposed, and which he regarded as perfectly analaguits to the 'ancient law of the land. - He indulged iii visionary schemes ; but he I bought the PiesideriC of the Board of Confront cherished visionary hopes when lie supposed - that the punishment of one Borough would restore all the other Boroughs in Cornwall to perfect purity. He had only to say, in reply to the Member for Northumberland, that if it met the wishes of the House, he would, wlrtn the Bill got into a Committer, be ready to close with his proposition, and he wished the Noble Lorry opposite might evince a similar disposition. Lord CASTLEREAGH, in explanation, said, he had agreed so far with the general principle of the Bill as not to object io its bring read a su-cottd time, leaving the points -on vsliich they Were at issue to be -disposed of in the Committee. lie hail . before stated his objections to the Noble Lord. lie was satisfied that it world not p.sa both.fjouses in its present form, and ti eittore he ,bad. suggested to the Noble Lord the. xpedi, trey of modifying its provisions. He hoped the Morse would see that in every respect he had acted w.th, every sort of candour, both in his public and Hi• vale character, towards the Noble Lord. The, Bill was then read a second time, and or. tiered to be comniitted on that day for nigi,r. The Clef k of the Peace Bill was mad a aird time, sod passed. ALIENS. Lord CASTLEREAMI gave notice, that after the holitlayi be would propose the renewal of the Alien sifl, and the Natu ralization of Foreigners Bill. MR. R. CHRIS TIE BURTON. The ATTORNEY-GENERAI, Preserttefra petition from the Wardell of the Fleet, stating,t hat one of the creditors of R. Christie Barton, Esq. (who having heen returned Metobte for Beverly, was released from confinement for debt, by order of the House of Commons on the I7t h 181 E) had corn uteneed an action against hint (the Warden) for an alle;ed permission to escape, and prailng t he protcoi,en ot the liouse. Referred to the Committee of Privihges, which %%;19 dirt cted ,to sit on Thursday. ihAt I loft wris nryth EIS n billl ;ran" ce ° I turn great (bey He Id be dd be Irect• prio' . 0 re' .3 [ II 1 awl ogre ° ItO c !lest l" c hi.fs of lie 0 th d nel irdt eford 11°‘ ri - ii' ll ;oiler joie ° stea 4 er tt Fa r! e d /0 a 1 ~i6 re' ' "Is' tho' t th'‘ :to, co' ADJOURNMENT FOR THE POLIDAYS • On the motion of Lit d CASTLEB.r:Miti, it wit, ordereti that at its rising the House should adjourn to 'l'hursday. PUBLICATION OF PROCEEDINGS IN A COURT OF 'WS I'ICE Mr. HOBUOUSE gave notice, that on the ►sth June he would submit to the House a Resolution respecting the right assumed by Judges of preventing by imprisonment and tine the publication of proceedin.:s in a Court of Justice. He was sorry that so important a subject should be brought for ward by one so little competent to recommend it to the con sideration of the House ; but he f , •lt himself hound, unless some Honourable Member of greater weight, or more exten sive legal knowledge, would undertake the task, to su,ituit motion on the subject to the House. BRITISH MUSEUM. Mr. BANKES gave notice, that nu Frh!ay he would move the usual Annual Grant to the British Museum. • CAPE OF GOOO HOPE. In a Committte on the Cape of Good Hope Trade Acts, a Resolution was agreed to, to continue the 5 7I h of the King for the regulation of the said trade. The Report on Thurs day. FREE PORTS In a Committee on the Fret? Port Acts, a Resolution to ex tend the provisions of an Act respecting the trade of Jamaica was agrees! to.--The Report un Thursday. . AMERICAN COLONIES. in a Committee on the American Colonies Drawback, a riesulution was - agreed to, to allow a drawback on goods ex ported to the British Colonies Anicrica.—The Report on Thursday. cusToms DUTIES REGULAT;OV The Custom Duties Regulation Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be•contmitted on that day se'nolght. IRISH DUTIES ON BONDS. In a Committee on the Duties fin Bonds (Ireland) Ac►, a Resol t ion was agreed to, the Report of which was 0 tiered to be received on Thursday. CORPORATION, OF CITIV,FfORti. On the motion of Mr. 1). W. HARVEY, a var•ety of Ac counts were ordered to he laid before the House .dative to the Writs of Error allowed by the Cursitor during the last three years. JUSTICES OF ASSIZE The ATTORNEY-GENERAL obtained leave to bring in a 'Bill to give full her •facilities to the procceding3 the C ,, urt of King's Bench, by giving certain powers to Jas , ices of As size. The Honourable and Learned Gentlem to soon atter brought in the Bill, which was real a fitst time, and ordered to be read a second tittle o t the 30th of June. ORDNANCE 1-:TIMATES. Mr. 8.. WARD brought op the Ordnance Estimates, which were ordered to be Fiord. The other Orders of ti.e Day were then disposed of, and at halt-past ten the 1-1.,u, adjourned to Th,tr,day next. THE Blittlan itpoc a s from a Par liamentary Return, that the nionbcr of persona who visited thi. National Hert,sitory ot Literature and from the 26th of March, 1819 , o the 25 - h of Match, 1820, wit , . 53 614. I r the year preceding, 1618-1819—they nmonnied to 63,253. Every year, sit,e, 1813, the dale tr,ta which the Return is made, the number o f has been progressivelyincteasiog. Wheu we consi der th,at during tke 211101 - His io the year (Aug. 4mi September), there is no minllSSl , m, awl that d , .r. ing the remaining ten months the ildyi ot adtms. ,ion in each week ate only three (viz. M ‘Veduesday, and Ft iday), it may be ie,g , arded as irakin proof of the iuttlicctual curiosity of tli4 Metropolis.