The Sun. — London, England, 1842-07-29 00:00:00

to him, that, on that repeal taking place, he would' take from England the goods he now procures from France 'and Germany ; for here he could pay for them in Ame rican produce, while there he could not. Chartist meet ings are held in the market-place every evening. There seem to be here three descriptions of Chartists ;—first, honourable and considerate men of all classes in society, from the large manufacturer to the lowest workman, who think the Charter the fittest instrument of national im provement, who zealously defend it, but who help the progress of any other cause which seems to them likely to improte the condition of the people—these are increasing in number ; second, zealous and honest, but misinformed noisy men, whose attachment to the Charter is little but bigotry, and whose obstruction of all other efforts is doing nothing but mischief to themselves; lastly, every public move ment drags after it the refuse of society. The men who would cry with Lord George Gordon, " No Popery;" at Birmingham, "Church and King;" and at Nottingham or Bristol, "Reform;" who would be rick-burners in Sussex, and Luddites in Yorkshire—these men now find the cry for the Charter the most convenient cover for emir dishonest purposes. It is to be feared that con tinued distress----lhe hunger which makes men mad, and the constant influence of bad example—are driving or seducing some of the well-disposed into this desperate class, and that the term "spread of Chartism," means to too great au extent, the spread of this dangerous and un happy spirit. But what can we say strong enough of the system which keeps up such a state of things ? If all went right, there would be no influences on which a man's happiness materially depends which would ordi narily he so much out of his daily sight and touch as those of a political kind. Just as the organic functions of saimal life are performed without consciousness, so sitould the rightful duties of the Government take effect uu the people, without their being driven to the necessity of daily, unceasing, harassing, and dangerous agitation. While .the stoma ch, or heart, or brain of a man are healthily fultillino% their proper purposes, he feels them not; but when they become diseased, he is ren dered painfully, conscious of their existence. So it is with Government; and a corstant state of necessary po litical excitement is ample proof that something is radi cally wrong. At Nottingham everybody is indignant at the silly or wicked assertion of Mr. Gaily Knight. " Worse and worse worse and worse ! worse and worse!" is the universal cry. Very lately a number of gentlemen met for the purpose of commencing a subscription for the relief of the distressed operatives, and hoped to obtain 1,000/. in aid of it from the Manufacturers' Relief Corn- 1 mittee. They found, however, that the number of per swis to be relieved was so great that all they could hope to raise, dispensed with the utmost parsimony, would, nut last more than three or four weeks. This seemed more like tantalizing the people than relieving them, and the attempt was given up. There are numerous benevolent societies attached to the different places of worship in Nottingham. Many of these have given written state ments of their belief that distress is nut only severe with out former example in that town, but is rapidly increasing. Many instances occur of almost total desti tution of furniture, and a new class of brokers has sprung up, who deal in the miserable remnants of the conve niences and comforts of better days. Deaths, and it is feared nut a few, have occurred from starvation. The .Magistrates have suppressed the practice of large bands of men going begging in the town, but these bands have . . _ inr.v betaken themselves to the country, and lay farm houses under contribution. The feeling of the people is, t!lnt God gives plenty, and man starvation. The :,!,,,ker was much struck with the remark made by the of a working man, that it was grievous to see what 1-ntv God in hip goodness had spread over the fields, they, and thousands more, could not iouchl it. AI my are becoming exasperated, not only with the pre scut Government, but with all government; oppression making them mad. It is grievous, too, to be told that distress has commonly fallen most heavily on those who were industrious and provident in better days. It takes lunch suffering- to break down their praiseworthy feel ings of independence ; besides which, as they then trut , :d only to their own industry for a livelihood, now that fails them their whole stay is gone. As i io the coining winter nobody would speak of it without a shudder. At the whole of these places the object he pursued was to induce their local friends to procure a clear, strong, and immediate expression of public opi nion, in order that the success already attained in prin ciple might be pushed into act before the approach of terrible winter.—(Cheers.) He said to them, that whatever the Conference might have done as a means of public instruction, it could do nothing towards actual reveal or suspension of those laws, but as a machine transmitting the pressure from without—the pressure must come from the people themselves.—(Hear, hear.) If they could find no stronger mode of expressing their opinions and feelings, he urged them to memorialise :Members of Parliaiient to stop - the supplies; for even if that stoppage could not be accomplished, yet. such a me morial would, perhaps, be the strongest form in which they could express themselves.—(Hear, hear.) At Hinckley I am told they will not hear a Chartist. Their 4.;estitution is too advanced for them to listen to any -plans but those of immediate relief. At Leicester and .._Loughborough a few, who call themselves Chartists, but who are too noisy and too unreasonable to do anything to the cause they espouse, but injure it, prevent the bidding of public meetings, except at the risk of great disturbance. With full - knowledge, therefore, of the sentiments of the mass of the people in those places, it is perhaps very likely no stronger expression will be given; aid this Sir R. Peel may, perhaps, interpret as a sign of their acquiescence. He will woefully deceive himself.— (Hear.) Two branches of a public sentiment, hostile in the highest degree to the principles of his Government, hold each other in check simply as to the noise they make. Still they not only exist, but under that very silence. they are fermenting and ripenine , for re sults which will make him tremble.—(Loud cheers.) lif this, its in other cases, just when he has dressed his spieeelies, and with his dangerous facility of putting sieglefacts for large conclusions, be has gained his de bates, and stopped for a moment the mouths of his op poneets, a state of things in this neighbourhood will burst upon him which will upset all, and show him up once more as a Minister of mere words.—(Cheers.) Mr. Chapman concluded his important and impressive speech amidst much applause. The Rev. Mr. BONNER, of Bilston, said, that before he came to London he had thought that in this metropolis was concentrated all that was patriotic, and noble, and good.. ; but his experience, short as it was, convinced him that it also contained much that was foul, base, and de grading. He had attended two meetings in London, which were assembled to hear the statements of the De legates respecting the distress of the country and its principal cause ; and he never saw in his life such con duct as was adopted by those who interrupted the meet ings. But he thought he could see in the countenances of those men the channels through which ran the secret service money of the Government.—(Cheers.) He did not believe that, they injured. the cause of the League, :eel they certainly did not serve that of the Chartists.— ( Hear, hear.) He had seen in the Morning Chronicle an assertion that it was false to say that the unemployed men in Bilston were seizing food by force. But he had ceiyed communications from Bilston, which he would read to the .meeting, and which showed that the men were seizing provisions by force, and obtainin g money by force, and he expected that he would shortly have to ei_ennaunicate to the Conference the announcement of a still more fearful state of things. The Rev. Gentleman then read the following letters, which produced a deep impression on the meeting. He begged to say that he had not solicited this information, and that the letters wo_Te written to him without any previous communication with his friends upon the subject Bilston, July 23, 1842. " My dear Sir,—Things are much in the same state here, only we begin to thing we have nothing to hope fur from any steps that have been or can be adopted now to relieve us, and are disposed to sit down quiet and wait events. On Wednesday the men employed in breaking stones at the Union-house set off in procession after their day's work, through Wolverhampton, Bilston, and Wil lcuhall; their object was to show the rate-payers who were so employed, and thus give an opportunity to dis cover any impostors. About 350 started, but a thunder storm dispersed some, yet at last 200 reached the Swan Bank, opposite my house; they were peaceable and or derly, but a poorer body of men need not be seen con vince our rulers that, as a nation, we are going down, and that our artizans and labourers will shortly lose all their old English character. In the evening bodies of from 10 to 20 visited the shopkeepers, and for the fast time demanded relief. The notice for a drop of the M liers' wages expires next Saturday, and I am old they will not submit; the consequence will be this end of the • county will require military as well as the Potteries, thus increasing the evil to the middle classes. More furnaces. are to be " blown out," and a further reduction has taken place in the price of iron this week. All will not, how ever, procure trade and employment for the people, while we refuse to take in payment for our manufactures what the farmer has to pay with, and what we want most, cheap food." Should the colliers of both ends of Staf fordshire and those in Shropshire stand out for their wages, the iron works and potteries must stand for coals, and then we shall have a fear ful increase to the number of the unemployed. The Chartists have called a meeting by placards on the walls throughout the district, the meeting to be held at Swan Village, West Bromwich (a very central point), on Monday next. A Mr. O'Neil is to address them, and they are to deliberate what steps they shall adopt to p reven t their " being ground into the dust ;" and the placards say further—" That by powerful resistance they (the forgemen and miners) may obtain all that they Want" The language used at their (the Chartists') room in Stafford-street, I am told, was very strong, and a plan for their future operations was promised to be disclosed in a few days. There is a heaving of society that indi cates the working towards seine crisis, and 1 fear it will not be long 'ere it overtakes us in one common ruin. Our overseers are appealing this day to the Poor-law Commissioners for further help to collect the rate, and attend to the removal of the poor. In their memorial they say that they do not expect to obtain from the 1,0001 still owing upon the rate granted on the 16th of April last, more than 2013/., and that it will be as much trouble to get that sum as it used to be to collect the Whole rate. That during the last three weeks, from the Ist of July to the 21st, seventy-one orders of removal have been made out, and last night fourteen more were made out, being sufficient work for the assistant over seer without expecting him to collect rates. " Believe me to be, yours truly, " ROBERT BEW. WSPA PElt Rev. W. H. Bonner, London." --Z _.* - W “Bilston, ul 26, 1842. N,'\ , o ,tMy dear Sir—E vents have made rap y id promress Adwirds a crisis here, w i t hi n the past ten days • -and t ' at the p resent moment o ur town is quite a scene of alarm. We. have just 'had a body of men —near 500—from the , neighbourhood, march into the town, who are now con , .;-:' round to the houses and , k , , suiting or whether they shall go and stop all whether they shall go heliv:themseives, this moment h h 1. .. * it pita in the neighbourhood. I have had agePtleman With me w .... / ., ° un a k.,, l: " 3 eu through Wolver hampton, wilf en h a u, and TT wow.. w - unt an q he reports an immense number of colliers and miners were assem bling in that district, and going round to stop all the works. lle left them taking the direction to our pits at Bunkcr's-hill. We are now, lam persuaded, entering upon a scene of confusion ; Bread or blood' is chalked upon the walls, and it is openly talked of to have a regular disturbance next Monday at our wake. Already we hear of marked men. I could give you the names of several of our ironmasters thus marked for popular vengeance. Last week a party came to my house ; on the door being closed, they cried out, It's no use shutting the door ; open it, or we will burst it open, and help ourselves ; we want bread, and bread we will have.' On some loaves being given them, they left. Surely the men who have grasped the reins of power cannot be so blind and be wildered as to imagine that such a state of things in a district like this can last many days, or that it is safe to allow it to be so. I envy not their position ; I would not, for all their power, be subject to the dreadful and bitter curses denounced upon their heads—curses deep and long, by the unemployed, as they stagger, through weakness, from our doors. "There was an immense meeting at Swan Village, near West Bromwich. I have n9t, heard the result. Excuse these hasty lines, and believe me, &c. " S.—Yesterday (our market-day) we might just as well have closed our shops ; there is really no business doing." . _ _ " Bilston, July, 27, 1842, " My dear Sir—On Monday the town was very quiet, as the meetings at Swan Village and Walsall tempted many to go there. At Swan Village the meeting was very large ; some reports say from 10,000 to 15,000; but I think, from the best authority, there were from 5,000 to 7,000. The Rev. Mr. Stocks succeeded in get ting a hearing, but their great man, Mr. O'Neil, was the principal speaker. He advised peace and obedience to the law, but used very strong and imploring language. I hear Lord Dartmouth passed the place during the meeting. In the evening meetings were held at Wed nesbury and Bilston, and the people were very importu nate for relief: At Walsall, after holding a meeting, a body of miners set off to the collieries at gently, and stopped those men they found at work. Yesterday morn ing the men employed breaking stones at our Union house, finding the guardians intended to pay them sd. instead of 11b. mutton and oatmeal, and considering it a drop of wages, refused to go to work, formed themselves into a procession. and marched through Wolverhampton, Willeuhall, and Bilston. About 300 passed my house. They then returned to the Union house, and threatened if relief was not given to commit violence. After consult ing Mr. Hill, a Magistrate, the guardians who could be got together, about six o'clock, p.m., agreed to give them ' the wages as if they had worked, so that the men gained a great victory. To-day they are working at the old wages, and are emboldened to ask for a Sunday allow ance, as well as for the six working days. The board meet again to-morrow, as the applications for relief are much on the increase. The miners in the neighbour hood of Walsall were all stopped by those already out of work ; after a meeting at Wednesbury, they went round in a body of from 200 to 300, soliciting relief: The tradesmen gave them food, and, in some instances, mo ney, to the amount of 2s. and 3s. at a house. To-day has, however, has been the most important ; large bo dies of from 200 to 400 have passed through this dis trict, either compelling the men at work to desist, or else giving them warning of the consequences if found at work next week. The notices for a reduction of wages expire on Saturday night, and they are determined not to go in at the reduction. This afternoon about 300 passed through the country between Wednesbury and Bradley. About 400 have come to Bilston, from Wal sall ; they called at Bunker's Hill Colliery, and com pelled the men to leave work ; also at the Bull Holes' Colliery ; they then came up the town, and in some in stances took bread and meat by force, and in many cases the shopkeepers gave them what they demanded, and some closed their shops altogether. " The Magistrates are now at the King's Arms Inn, swearing in special constables, the town is in a very alarming state, and though I do not fear a riot, I do fear the men will take food where they can find it, and thus subject themselves to the law, and the town to the ex pense and unpleasantness of having, a military force placed in it. Besides I see no prospect of amendment, for the manufacturers have almost no orders, and are, not able to sell the little they do sell but at a serious loss. Sir Robert Peel is not, cannot be ignorant of the state of things in this and other manufacturing districts, a state of things hourly getting w orse , an d he is not honest in saying the accounts of distress are exaggerated. I am surprised Government do not leave everything else, and turn their attention to the condition of the starving thousands, daily increasing around them. One common ruin appears to await us all, if our trade is not immediately revived • charity will do nothing for us, and poor-rates will shortly bring us all to one common level. I am more and more convinced that free trade measures are just and right, and will remedy our distress. , " I have just heard that 400 colliers or more are gone to the neighbourhood of Dudley from Wednesbury and Bilston, and that a large meeting is to be held to-morrow to arrange for a general strike. "fam, dear Sir, very truly yours, " ROBERT BEW. " Rev. W. H. Bonner, London." "Bilston, July 27, 1842. " My dear Sir—We have been, and arc now surrounded with, scenes which cannot be allowed or continued, with out leading to the complete breaking up of all social older. Our town has been completely occupied, since noon, by a body of near 1,000 men, seizing provisions from the shops when denied, and causing so much alarm that many of the tradesmen in the upper part of the town closed their houses for safety. Just below me they carried off some legs of mutton, and, on a grocer and provision dealer giving them some loaves of bread, they commenced devouring the meat in a raw state, and almost ready to fight over it, and the crumbs of bread which fell while they were devouring it. They have been round to the whole of the pits in our district, and compelled the men to leave their work. This was effected without se rious injury to any. In case of resistance, as in a few instances, they ducked the men in the pools, and threat ened to kill them if they attempted to work again. I attended a meeting near my house last night. I suppose there were near 2,000. It was adjourned until to-morrow evening, when they are to adopt certain resolutions, of the same character as those adopted by the colliers in the Potteries. I fear we shall be subject to the same scenes of confusion then as to-day. One man whom I addressed said, What are we to do ? We cannot live many days unless we take by force what we cannot get otherwise.' I replied, But how unjust to fall back upon the tradesmen, who are almost ruined as it is, and two thirds of us must close our shops ere long.' Then,' said the man, ' come with us and fight for it ; we mean to do so next week ; this is the only chance for us ; we can only die by the soldiers, and we may as well be shot to death as starved.' This is a sad state of things. I anti cipate some of our friends wijl give you more particulars by this post, therefore trust you will excuse brevity. " Yours very truly." Mr. SHAR3IAN CRAWFORD, M.P., next addressed the meeting. He said he had no personal interest in manu factures, his entire income was d er i ve d f rom l an d, an d he could not therefore be supposed to advocate the views he entertained from any personal motive. He was con vinced that the success of the cause which the League advocated was as essentially the true interest of the agriculturist as of the manufacturer. He conceived that those who were connected with land and advocated the existence of the Corn-laws, entirely mistook their own interest. He was of opinion that the Corn-laws instead of raising rents tended to lower .them and keep them down, and tended to diminish employment (he spoke of the agricultural labourer). No rents were so high as those drawn from districts in which manufactures were connected with agriculture. They were much higher than the rents drawn from districts whore the tenant relied solely on the production of corn, as the means of paying his rent. He advocated the occupation of land by small farmers, whose capital was their labour, instead of its being let out to large capitalists. The advantages to the country at large from the occupancy of land by small farmers would be inestimable. When the labourer was prosperous every class in the community shared in that prosperity ; but when the selfish views of monopolists were carried out, as at the present time, the anomalous state of a prosperous class in the upper circles living in the same country where the labouring classes were starving, was the consequence. Sir R. Peel had stated the annual income of this country at 166,000,0001. sterling, and was it not a most extraor dinary thing that with such an enormous wealth as that the great mass of the people should be starving ? Some thing must be lyrong in the institutions of the einpire to cause such a state of things. With respect to ma chinery, though in its immediate effects it was injurious to the operative by throwing him out of employment, yet it was ultimately productive of great advantages by the increased demand for labour. The Hon. Gentleman here entered into lengthened details to show the advan tages resulting from a division of the land into small holdings, and read extracts from a pamphlet, published by himself, to prove that four acres of average land would be amply adequate to support a working man and his family, allowing sibs. a day of food to every member of a family ; whereas, the dietary in the English workhouses was to each individual only 18 ounces of bread, and three ounces of cheese, while in Ireland it was still worse, namely, seven ounces of meal and 3-ilbs. of potatoes. That allowance was divided into two meal's, because, as the Commissioners stated, great incon venience would arise from having a third meal or supper. In proof of his theory, he referred to the condition of operatives in Belfast, where the mills and manufactories were being shut up, and the labourers were in conse quence thrown out of employment, and having no law to fall back upon were in a state of starvation, while such of them as had small holdings were comparatively well off. In the agricultural districts, according to the Re port of the Commissioners, pauperism had ls tely increased 30 per cent., and in some places 50 per cent. The influx of puupers from the agricultural into the manufacturing districts and towns, which was the consequence of that increase of pauperism in the former, ,greatly aggravated the distress prevailing in the manufacturing districts, and he, therefore, told manufacturers that it behoved them to look to the condition of those labourers who were connected with land as that condition had a great influence upon the poor-rates, which they had to pay. Though he did not think the Corn-laws were the sole evil that affected the condition of the working classes, nor looked upon their repeal as solely conducive to the re moval of such evil, yet he insisted that without the re moval of those laws no other measure could be adopted which would be beneficial in its operation to society. The repeal of the Corn-laws should form the basis of every measure for improving the condition of the opera tive community. They ought also to l oo k to the im provement of legislation generally. Hereterraenddtocot exertions of the Anti-Corn - law League, trasted them with the proceedings of the House of Com mons, which, on this subject, were not in conformity with the sense and interest of the country, which he be lieved to be properly represented by the League. He, therefore, suggested to the Conference to adopt a resolu- tion indicative of their sense of the conduct of the House of Commons in despising their exertions on behalf of their starving countrymen. After a few further observa tions, the Honourable Gentleman sat down amidst much applause. On the motion of the Rev. Mr. BROWNE, the thanks of the meeting were given to Mr. Crawford. The Chairman declared the Conference adjourned till to-day ELECTION COMMITTEE. IPSWICH. The Committee met again yesterday morning at eleven o'clock; P. M. Stewart, - Esq., in the Chair. Mr. AUSTIN resumed his address.-The Learned Gentleman commenced by discussing at considerable length the bearing of the Treating Act. With re spect to alleged acts of 'treating, he contended that there was no evidence tracing the fact to the knowledge of the sitting Members. Again, what were the alleged acts of bribery ? If he (Mr. Austin) went to a friend of his and asked him to dine with him, and in the course of the dinner he requested his friend to vote for a certain party, and that friend complied, they might just as well strike that man's vote off the book, as to say that those persons who had break ! fasted at the Salutation were rendered incompetent to vote. He would then proceed to the question of what they called agency. He had endeavoured to strip the case of its colour-to crack the shell, and to come at the kernel. He said that Mr. Bristoe never was the agent of the sitting Members. He said that Mr. Cooke never was the agent of the sitting Members. They had no au thority whatever to act on behalf of the sitting Members. Supposing this questionable case to be a case of corruption, Mr. Bristoe had no authority to act as he did, nor had Mr. Cooke. He said it was the highest injustice and cruelty to visit on the head of the sitting Members the misconduct of those parties. It would be as much in justice as to visit upon the heads of *Mr. Moffatt or Mr. Gisborne the conduct of the parties in the affair of the Orion. He said that Mr. Bristoe and Mr. Cooke never were • agents. They were no more agents for the sitting Members than they were for Mr. Gisborne or Mr. Moffatt themselves. These seats had been vacated by a Committee in the present session of Parliament, on account of acts of bribery of the - most profligate description. They would recollect that the writ was for some time suspended--they would recollect that discussion after discussion took place with reference to removing that suspension. It was ultimately removed. There could be no doubt that the disclosures made on that occasion must have had a certain moral effect on the electors of the town of Ipswich. The same thing happened in 1835, when Mr. Kelly and Mr. Christopher lost their seats upon a similar petition. On that occa sion the vacancy was filled up by Mr. Wason and Mr. Morrison. They obtained their seats easily and tri umphantly in consequence of the moral impression made by the disclosures against the Blue party on that peti tion. The same thing happened the other day. The two gentlemen were easily and triumphantly re turned in consequence of the moral effects which had been produced on the electors by the late petition. Mr. Morrison was returned by a large majo rity, upwards of 100 ; but the majority at the ate elec tion, was upwards of 140. The sitting Members must have been bold men, indeed, to have determined to carry their election by corruption. No ' • they went down de termined that not a shilling should be spent in cor ruption. What did Mr. Gladstone say to Mr. Ridley ? " If there is to be money spent, we shall lose our elec tion." He hoped Hon. Members would remember what their expenses at their elections were, and then he (Mr. Austin) would tell them what Mr. Gladstone's were at the last election ; and he would also tell them what Lord Desert's expenses were. Mr. Gladstone paid the enor mous expense of 2501, and Lord Desert paid the same. He (Mr. Austin) would venture to say that no Member of Parliament had been returned in the present session at less expense, even beginning with the Hon. and teamed Member for Bath. Mr. PROTHEROE-The remark does not apply to all. Mr. AUSTIN-The Hon. Member was one dissentient; but he (Mr. Austin) would venture to say that the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath paid a greater sum than 2501. at his election. He (Mr. Austin) would read the items of the expenses at the late Ipswich election: Travelling expenses, 371. for certain voters from London and Newcastle ; the expenses of twenty voters from Woodbridge, &c., 26/. 14s. ; the ex penses of the detention of three vesse l s beside the Success, 241 16s. ; the expenses for constables, in cluding the constables employed in the procession, 120/. 2s. 6d. ; expenses for messengers, 31/. 6s. 6d. ; expense for hustings, 331. 17s. Bd. ; committee-room, 20/. 4s. Id. ; expense for horses and carriages, 421. 17s. 9d. ; the band-for he supposed they would not wish to have an election conducted like a funeral-391. 19s. ; ringers, 91. 9s. ; the procession, in addi tion to the constables before-mentioned, 281. 12s. ; clerks, &c., 15/. Is. 10d. ; dinner for the clerks at the election, 31 Is. • the rent of the assembly room, 31.'; Mr. Jacobin's bill for attendance, 12/. 13s. 10d.; and miscellaneous expenses, 11. 4s. 6d., making in the whole 4591 Os. Id., which being divided by the figure 2 would give 230/. for each of the sitting Members. There was not one farthing further expenses whatever, and that money was paid by Mr. Hunt. Not a farthing was paid for bribery, as there was no bribery whatever at the election. Upon this state of facts they were called upon to unseat the sitting Members, and lie asked them whether they did not ex pect from the manner in which the case was opened. that extravagant acts of bribery would be proved ? The Learned Gentleman read a great number of au thorities on the question of agency, and con tended that Mr. Gladstone and Lord I)esart were not bound by the acts of Mr. Cooke or Mr. Bristoe, Even if those acts were held to be corrupt, he put to the Committee that Mr. Hunt was the only accredited agent., and by his acts alone could the sitting Members be bound. The conduct of Mr. Hunt had been pure and upright, and the whole expenses which he had incurred only amounted to 460/ for the two sitting Members. He had done his duty. He had attempted, and he felt he should succeed in establishing a great Parlia mentary principle. Here they were called upon to unseat Members because some fool or some scoundrel had, in an alley of that city, bribed a voter, and this without proof. He felt that law and justice were on his side, and he entertained no doubt that the Committee would come to a resolution exonerating the sitting Mem bers from the charges brought against them, and declare them duly elected, and discharging them from all suspi cion which'had been attempted to be cast upon them. He would sit down, therefore ; and if lie did not succeed he should be more astonished than he ever was in his life. Mr. TALBOT then proceeded to call the following witnesses : Mr. Hunt examined—l am a solicitior. I have been connected with Mr. Gladstone. It was at my suggestion that Mr. Gladstone became a candidate for Ipswich. Be fore I left London with Mr. Gladstone I was aware of the principles of Mr. Gladstone as to the conduct of elections. In the year 1839 I accompanied Mr. Glad stone to the borough of Sandwich to canvass the borough. Mr. KINGLAILE objected to the examination as irre levant. Mr. Hunt—Mr. Gladstone told me before the elec tion took place that no moneys beyond the legal ex penses were to be spent. • On my arrival at Ipswich I saw persons connected with the party supporting Mr. Gladstone and Lord I)esart. I told them all the prin ciples upon which we came to canvass the borough. I told this to Mr. Cooke and Mr. Bristoe, and a number of other partizans. I considered that I was the manager of the election. I made out a list of 'returns. I canvassed with Lord Desert, and all applications were made to me respecting the election. I am a stranger to Ipswich. I took the returns every day. On two occasions I took the returns at Mr. Steward's private rooms, es it was more convenient. I communi cated to Mr. Steward, on that occasion, in the most distinct terms, that the candidates would not spend any money, and he fully concurred in that arrangement. This was at Deck's rooms. I have the account of the expenses which Mr. Austin read. I never gave any authority to Mr. Cooke or Mr. Bristoe to act at the election. I never gave authority to any one except Mr. Steward. In May, I gave Mr. Steward a cheque for 10/. to remit to Mr. Jacobin in London. In June, I gave him another 100/. ; and on my arrival in London, I sent him one for 1001 I then received a letter from Mr. Steward, suggesting that I should send 290/, which I did, making altogether 500/, which was the precise sum of money I had received from the candidates. A less sum was ex pended, and Mr. Steward is now in my debt. Cross-examined by Mr. PHILLtes—I have not been at many elections. I have heard that every candidate disclaims bribery when he goes to an election. lam quite a stranger in Ipswich, and I relied very much on the local friends of . the candidates there. Mr. Steward lives in Ipswich. I met him the night I arrived in Ipswich, at Deck's room. I did not know of the tickets being given to the voters. I heard that some of the parties in Ipswich in tended to give breakfasts on their own account. I can vassed with Lord Desert two days. I canvassed in com pany with Mr. Cooke on the Monday. I did not know at that time that he had been reported for bribery. I should have gone with him, even if I had known it. I believe he is a very respectable man. If the landlord of the King's Arms supplied breakfasts to the voters I did sot know it. I never knew that refreshments were given on the day of the election until I heard it in this room, and believe now that there is some mistake. I have met Cooke at the Little Carlton Rooms. I think Mr. Cooke told me that he had been sent to Newgate by the House of Commons. I had intercourse with him after that, for I believed him to be a very re spectable man. I did not tell Lord Desert or Mr. Gladstone that a person had been canvassing who had been committed to Newgate. I did not think it was my duty. I was not aware of certain voters getting 30s. for their travelling expenses from Harwich until last Thursday week. I should not have paid 30s. for a voter coming six miles. I believe that the money was paid by M r . Steward out of the money I sent him. There has beta no account given to me of the tickets issued to the Blue voters. I know Mr. Bristoe. I canvassed with him two or three votes. I told Mr. Steward that no expanses would be paid except travelling expenses. By Mr. AUSTIN—I never intended for a moment to treat with Mr. Bristoe on the footing of an agent. From the conduct of Lord Desert and Mr. Gladstone they never loOked upon him as such. I never felt bound by any act of Mr. Bristoe. He had no authority to contract any debt on the part of the candidates. The same answers distinctly apply to Mr. Cooke. I told Mr. Steward, as distinctly as a man could speak, that the candidates would not sanction any expenditure of money. I never gave the slightest authority for the breakfasts. Several ap plications were made for breakfasts, but I said " We are prepared to lose the election, rather than sanction such a course. I used all the means in my power, to avoid any illegal expenditure. There is not a farthing due from the sitting Member to any person in Ipswich, on account of the election. At the time of the election I thought travelling expenses were legal ; if I had entertained a contrary opinion, I should not have allowed it. It was my duty to avoid every expense beyond the legal ex penses. It was my duty, and my decided intention. The Committee then adjourned till eleven to-day. PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS. (From the Votes and Proceeettngenf the Monaco' Commons.) WEDNESDAY, JULY '27. BRIBERY AT ELECTIONS (No. 2.) BILL. Question put, " That the 26th Clause stand part of the Bill :"—The Committee divided : Jlionby, H. A. dam, William' Bowriog, 1)r. Brotherton, J. Callaghan.'D. Cobden, Richard Colebrookc, Sir T. Crawford, W. S. Duncan, George Duncombe, T. S. Dundas, Admiral Ebrington, Viscount Gibson, T. M. Hawes, B. NORITY—AYES, 39. Hindley, Charles Pulsicwd, Robert Hollond, Robert Roebuck, J. A. Hume, Joseph Sheil, R. L. Hutt, W. Thornely, Thomas Mitchell, T. A. Tufncll, H. Morris, David Turner, Edmund Napier, Sir Charles Vane, Lord Harry O'Connell, D. Wawn, J. T. O'Connor Don Williams W. Palmerston, Visa. Wood, li. Parker. John Wood, G. W. Pechell, Captain TELLERS. Plumridgc, Captain - Protheroe, Edward Allix, John Peter Anti obus, Edward Ashley, Lord Astell, William Baird, W. Baring, W. B. Baring, H. B. Bateson, Robert Blackburnc, 1. Blackstone, W. S. Boldrro, H. G. Praniston, T. W. Broadley, 14. Bruce, Lord E. Buller, Sir J. Y. Campbell, A. Clerk, Sir George Cockburn, Sir G. Colquhoun, J. C. • 3rrY, Right Hon. 11, Crime, W. Darner, Hon. G. Douglas, Sir C. Duncombe, Hon. A. Eaton, R. J. MAJORITY—NOES, kotlett, Sir William Forbes, William Fremantle, Sir F. Fuller. A. E. Gaskell,Jaines Alilnes , Gladstone, W. E. Gore, W. It. 0. Goulburn, Henry Graham, Sir James Grogan, Elward Hamilton, W. J. Hardinge, Sir H. Hawkes, T. Herbert, Hon. S. Hodgson, Richard Hornby, John Howard. P. H. Hussey, Thomas Inglis, Sir R. H. Jerinyn, Lord Jones, Theobalrl Lascelles, W. S Leicester, Earl of ' Lincoln Earl of Litton, Reward Eliot, 'bird Escort, Ilickham Flower, Sir James Lowthir, J. H. M , sterman, John Mcyncll, 11. Buller, C. Hardy, John 3). Morgan, Octaviui Mundy, E. Miller Neville, Ralph Newry, Viscount Nicholl, J. Parke, C. W. Peel, Hon. Sir R Polhill, ;Frederick Pollock, Sir F. Praed, W. T. Pringle, A. llushhrook, Colonel Sandan, Lord scarlutt, It C. Sibthorp, Colonel Somer.et. Lord G. Stanley. Lord Stuart, H. Sutton, Hon. h. M Taylor, J. A. Trench, Sir F. Vivian, J. E. Worsley, Lord Young, John TELLERS. Darby, George Henley,,,OrYarner IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, July 28. The Earl of SHAFTESBURY took his seat on the Woolsack in the absence of the Lord Chancellor shortly after Five o'Clock. A Message from the Commons brought up the Tithe Commutation (England and Wales) Bill, and several other Bills: EXCHEQUER BILLS BILL. The Duke of WELLINGTON moved the third reading of the Exchequer Bills Preparation Bill. Lord BROUGHAM saw nothing objectionable in the Bill except the first clause, which made the Assistant-Comptroller of the 'Exchequer responsible to the Treasury, which he had not hitherto been. The LORD CHANCELLOR at this time took his seat on the Woolsack, and was congratulated by several Noble Peers on the restoration of his health. After a few observations from the Duke of WELLINGTON, • the Bill was read a third time. The Noble Duke then moved certain amendments, which were agreed to, and the Bill passed. CUSTOMS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The Earl of RIPON having moved the third read ing of this Bill, Lord MONTEAGLE said that he wished to take that opportunity of alluding to some points connected with our commercial policy. He perceived that it was proposed in the Bill then before the House, to re move the duty which had been imposed on the exporta tion of cement-stone in the original tariff. lie wished to ask what were the motives which had induced the Government to alter their intention upon that sub ject. He had a few words to say relative to the position in • which the Corn question was left by the Government. It was known that there was now a considerable portion of foreign corn in bond ; and he was happy to think that a considerable portion of that corn was at present likely to be released; lie should rather find, that our markets would be relieved in that way than by any special interposition of the Government, which would free corn from the duty to which it was by law subject. The effect to the consumer of the admission of 1,200,000 quarters of corn on the payment of a duty, or without any duty at all, would be precisely the same in the one case as in the other ; because the price would be regulated not by the amount of duty paid, or by the absence of all duty, but by the amount of corn in the market as compared with the means of the people to consume that corn. The only effect, therefore, of admitting the corn duty free would be to put so much money in the pockets of the holders of corn. There was another part of the question to which he wished to direct their at tention. If the price were low in this country the admission of 1,200,000 quarters of foreign corn would be considered as an evil, because it would glut our markets ; but, on the other hand, if the price were high, the admission of foreign corn would be consi dered as a benefit, inasmuch as it would afford a relief to the . consumer. But what was the operation of our present system ? Why, it produced the very opposite result from that to which lie had alluded. If a rise in price were anticipated, not one single pound of foreign corn would be introduced for the purpose of remedying that rise ; but, on the contrary, if a fall in price were anticipated, the result would be that foreign corn would be taken out of bond for consumption ; and the farmers would suffer from the double circumstance of an abund ant harvest at home, and from the importation of large amounts of corn from abroad. There was no fact, in his opinion, which - could offer a more entire refutation than that to which he had thus alluded, of the principle upon which the existing Corn-laws were 'founded. He had no objection to make to the present Bill in particu lar ; but he believed that the evil in question was one which would be inseparable from any sliding-scale, how ever ingeniously it might be contrived.—(Hear, hear.) He had a question to put to his Noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Ripon), relative to the position in which we now stand with regard to our commercial connexion with Portugal. They knew from public report that there was every probability that we should be able to enter into a commercial treaty with Portugal ; and he con fessed that he looked forward to the conclusion of such a treaty with peculiar interest. He wished to know what was the present state of our negotiations with respect to that treaty, as far as her Majesty's Ministers thought it prudent to disclose them? He had a second question to put to his Noble Friend, relative to the negotiations between this country and the Brazils, with respect to the expiration of our present treaty with the Brazils. He believed that the two Governments put a different construction as to the time of the expiration of the treaty. He wished to know at what time the treaty would expire in the opinion of our Government, and also if there were any negotiations going on with respect to its renewal? The third question he had to put to his Noble Friend was, whether her Majesty's Government had taken any - step respecting the late ordinance of the French Government relative to the duty on British yarns, and whether any step had been taken by her Majesty's Ministers with regard to the expressed inten tion of the Belgian Government to give a qualified ac ceptance to the French ordinance, by imposing a higher duty upon our yarns? lie was aware, however, that the intention expressed by the Government of Belgium could not be carried into effect without the consent o! - the Chambers. The Earl of RIPON said that the Government had been induced to remove the duty they had at first pro posed to raise upon the exportation of cement-stone, because they had found, upon inquiry that it would only have the effect of throwing a number of industrious people out of employment. lle would not then follow his Noble Friend into any discussion upon the corn question. There was, at present, a notice on the papers which would enable them to ascertain under what cir cumstances corn had hitherto come out of bond. As to the questions which his Noble Friend put, he had first to reply that it was perfectly true that her Majesty's Go vernment were in negotiation with Portugal, of which the object was to put the commercial relations of the two countries, in all their essential branches, on a more satis factory footing. The disposition of the Government of this country was to act with perfect fairness towards Portugal : and he had no reason to suppose that the Government of Portugal was disposed to act in any other spirit towards us. With respect to the Brazils, his Noble Friend had asked him when it was that the British Government considered that our ex isting treaty with the Brazils would expire, and whether the Brazilian Government agreed with them upon that point, and whether there were any negotiations going on for the purpose of renewing that treaty. Her Majesty's Government were of opinion, as their prede cessors had been, that the present treaty would not ex pire until November, 1844 ; but the Brazilian Govern ment, who had taken a different view of the matter, contended, and they had not as yet desisted from the opi nion, that the treaty expired in 1842. That question, as well as our commercial relations generally, with the Brazils, was under the mutual consideration of the two Governments. He was not, however, at present in a position to enter into details upon that subject. With re gard to the ordinance published in France respecting our linen-yarn, and the course taken by the Belgian Go vernment in coincidence with that of France, he could only say that her Majesty's Government had felt it to be their duty to make such representations to the Go vernments of France and Belgium as the circumstances of the case seemed to them to require. The Bill was then a third time and passed. THE NEW POOR:I. AW.___ On the motion of the Duke of WELLINGTON, the Poor-law Amendment Bill went through Committee; was reported to the House, and ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. HEARING OF COUNSEL. Lord CAMPBELL rose, pursuant to notice, to move that no, Member of the other House should be heard as counsel at their Lordship's bar. He could bear testimony to the -Hon. and Learned Gentleman to whom he referred being a barrister of great honour, great zeal, great learning, and ability, and one than whom none could perform their duties in a more bold, able, and disinterested manner. But their Lordships were not to look to the character of the indi vidual, but to the consequences of the system. They had, in common with every other judicial body, the power of determining who were, and who were not, to act as counsel before them. The Court of Common Pleas had recently determined, in opposition to an order of the Privy Council, that the old rule of that Court should be enforced, and none but sergeants-at law should practice there. The Court of Queen's Bench determined who should be callectto the bar, and even the Insolvent D e bt ors ' C our t, an d t h e C entra l C r i m i na l I Court, and the Courts of Quarter Session, had all exer cised the same power. As their Lordships were a judicial body, there was no objection to a barrister being a Member of the Commons, appearing at their bar as an advocate in cases of appeal, or even of impeachment. But when they had under their consideration a legisla tive measure, in which they had a concurrent jurisdic tion with the House of Commons and the Crown, was it expedient, was it decorous, that a Member of-the other House, who had to consider, or had considered the Bill in his legislative capacity, and who might have at a future stage to reconsider their Lordships' decision on the Bill, to appear at the bar as the professional ad vocate of a party either for or against it ? If such a practice prevailed, what would be the consequence ? An eminent Member of the bar, being also a Member of the House of Commons, might receive a retainer, which he could not (according . to the rules of his profession) re fuse, to defend or to oppose a Bill upon which he should have in the House of Commons to give a vote according to his conscience. It might be said that this was a ques tion with which the House of Commons alone ought to deal, but he repeated that it concerned their Lordships ; inasmuch as it. regarded what persons should be alkvved to appear at their bar in the character of counsel.—(Hear.) Upon these reasons he thought they ought to interpose to prevent such practices from being established, for if they did not then interpose, the practice would be established. This was not a special case in which no other counsel could be employed. He would refer to precedents on the subject, and after very considerable research he could only find three instances in which anything of the kind had occurred. The first of these was in 1616. lie believed it was not generally known, and he therefore felt it his duty to mention it to their Lordships. In Sir Henry Fin's case leave was given to plead at the bar of their Lordships. He rather ap prehended that it was passed over in curium. It was sent before a Committee of the House, and never came before the bar at all; therefore it could not be entitled to the :lightest weight. From 1616 to 1693 there were ninety instances of leave having been given to Members of the House of Commons. A very distinguished case occurred in which leave was given to Members of the House of Commons, which was the case of the Bill to dissolve the marriage of George IV. and Queen Caroline. Leave was then given to his Noble and Learned Friend and Mr. Denman to appear at the bar of their Lordships as counsel against that Bill. Now even that case was not to be considered a precedent for allowing a Member of the House of Com mons to plead as counsel at their Lordships' bar, for or against a Bill. When a Bill came from the House of Commons, every Member was supposed to agree to it. If the Speaker said the "ayes" had it on the third reading, or any other stage, every Member was supposed to acquiesce as much as though a division had taken place. When leave was given to Mr. Brougham and Mr. Den man—though at the time they were deeply in the confi dence of Queen Caroline—they being her Attorney and So licitor-Generals—even on that occasion there was a stipu lation made that if the Bill came into the House of Com mons they should not be permitted to vote upon it. Lord Castlereagh made art application for the Solici tor-General and Attorney-General for the King to ap pear at the bar upon the same stipulation. Therefore it was on the distinct understanding that they were not to vote for or against theßill. But in the case of the Sudbury Bill, the Bill had passed the other House, and the gentle men had voted upon it. There was one other precedent to `which he would refer, and that was in 1830—the case of Sir Jonah Barrington, who was a Judge in Ireland, and there was a charge made against him of malversation in his office. A resolution was agreed to in the House of. Commons to adiress the Crown to remove him from his office.- Those resolutions were communicated to their Lordships, and an inveaigation took place. and wit nesses were examined, but the case did nit attract any attention. The same objection was then held as on this occasion. Mr. M4Queene had written a very valuable book on the subject of the practice of the House of Lords, and he said distinctly that no Member of the other House could plead as counsel on any Bill of a legislative nature. For these reasons, he trusted their Lordships would establish this Standing Order. He re. gretted it had not fallento a person of greater experience in that House, but he trusted they would not look to the individual but to the importance of the subject. lie would therefore conclude by moving that it be a Standing Order that no one should be heard at the Bar of the House as counsel for or against any Bill who is a Member of the Commons House of Parliament. The LORD CHANCELLOR should confine what he had to say on this motion to a few observations. He certainly could not bring his mind to support t he motion. It was not his intention to follow his Noble and Learned Friend through the extensive details which he had gone into, because no one could doubt that their Lordships had the authority to refuse hearing counsel at their bar. One argument of the Noble Lord was that the practice would cause great inconvenience, but he (the Lord Chancellor) did not know where the inconvenience had arisen. Another argument of the Noble And Learned Lord was that it would introduce a new system of bribery. Now, considering that his Noble and Learned Friend had been a member of that profession, in which he had prac tised so long, and in which he was so much distin guished, and knowing as he did the character of those who pleaded at the bar, it was the greatest injustice to suppose that any case of that description had even arisen. It was an imputation of which he was sure they were un deserving. It appeared to, him that it was very doubtful policy to introduce a new Standing Order on the subject. They might object to a person from the other House of Parliament pleading at the bar but those persons might resign their seats. and they might still appear at the bar in the same character, and use the same arguments which they would have done before. He could not persuade himself that if the journals of their Lordships' House were searched, many precedents would be found in which Members of the other House had appeared at the bar, in support of, or in opposition to, a legislative measure. If their Lordships thought it necessary to alter the practice, he hoped they would not do so without an anxious inquiry as to whether they should lay down a general rule or not in each case as the occasion required. He also objected to measures of this nature, which were general in their form, but were really di rected against an individual, and framed for a particular occasion. —(Hear, hear.) It was unworthy of the House to legislate in such a manner. If it were necessary to legislate on the subject at all, let the measure be brought forward in the early part of the next session, and con sidered in a Select Committee. Before he sat down he wished to say that Mr. Waddington was appointed to examine witnesses, in the case of the Sudbury disfran chisement, before it was known that the Noble Marquis who had taken charge of the Bill wished that any other forensic assistance should be provided. Lord BROUGHAM entirely agreed with his Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack in his objections to the proposed Standing Order. To propose a new Standing Order was one of the rarest and one of the most difficult tasks which any of their Lordships, how ever learned, however experienced, however skilled in the usages of Parliament, could undertake, In the last thirteen years, during part of which he had had the ho nour of sitting upon that seat, which was now se much more worthily filled by his Noble and Learned Friend (the Lord Chancellor), and was for six sessions occupied by his Noble and Learned Friend beside him (Lord Cot tenham), there had been no new Standing Order proposed, except in one instance, when he (Lord Brougham).pro posed one, and then it was referred to a Select Committee, and on that occasion their Lordships considered the framing of a new Standing Order so important, that they called in the assistance of the two Chief Justices and of the Chief Baron of the Exchequer. The acute ness of his Noble and Learned Friend, which never perhaps failed him before, had failed him in this in stance ; and his steady judgment, which in all cases was direct and level, was warped by the peculiar view which he had taken of the subject, that it was an imperative duty upon him, above all, to meddle with their Lord ships' Standing Orders.—(Laughter). His Noble Friend said the judgment of an advocate was warped by a re tainer. Well, what had that to do with their Lordships? Some of them might have known as well as his Noble and Learned Friend the effect of a retainer in warping the judgment.—(Laughter.) But what of that? What concern was it to their Lordships now?—(Great laughter.) If it concerned anybody, but the party directly concerned, and the more concerned, as the retainer was larger— (Renewed laughter)—if it concerned anybody else it was the House of Commons.—(Hear.) He did not deny that a retainer might warp the judgment. He did not deny that it might be—that it had been—a cover for bribery. But it did not concern their Lordships. It was a matter for the House to consider, within what limits it should restrict the professional labours of its Mem. bers.—(Hear, hear.) His Noble and Learned Friend had referred to the occasion when Members of the House of Commons (of whom he had the honour to be one)—appeared at the bar to defend her late Majesty Queen Caroline. His Noble and Learned Friend was of opinion that their appearance at the bar on that occasion was not to be taken as a precedent, because he (Lord -Brougham) and his esteemed Friend, now Lord Denman, held at the time the offices of Attorney and Solicitor-General to her Majesty. But his Noble and Learned Friend showed the most profound igno rance as to the facts, and th e most i nconce i va bl e careless ness in his statements—(Laughter)—for Dr. Lushing ton, who was also a Member of the House of Commons at the time, and was not the official adviser of her Ma jesty, was retained, and did most ably plead at the bar against the Bill of Pains and Penalties.—(Hear, hear.) His Noble and Learned Friend said that he (Lord Brougham) and Lord Denman ought to have accepted the Chiltern Hundreds, and that they would be sure of being re-elected on account of their popularity. Indeed I Where did his Noble and Learned Friend learn so much of the facility of re-election ?—(Laughter.) Why this was another instance of his Noble Friend's ignorance of the facts. For he (Lord Brougham) actually gave no tice of his intention to accept the Chiltern Hundreds, and also gave notice that he meant to retire from the House of Commons only for a time. But he was given to un derstand that if he did retire he would not be re-elected. He denied the statement of his Noble and Learned, Friend that Members of the House of Commons appear ing as Counsel at their Lordships' bar were not as amenable as other Counsel to the decision and control of their Lordships. Let any Counsel, being a Member of the other House, do anything of which the House thought it would be proper to express its disapprobation, and he was sure that they would visit his conduct with the same censure, and to the same extent, as the conduct of any _Counsel not possessing a seat in the House of Commons. There was a Standing Order of the other House passed in 1692, and renewed in 1695, that was to say, in the best days of our Constitution, prohibiting Members of the House of Commons to attend at their Lordships' Bar, but that order had not been enforced by the other House. If; however, they did . not e n f orce it, th a t was no a ffair of their Lordships. He eia not see any possible harm that . could result to their L or dship s froc, ii, .1 . .t 1), other House appearing in tlu i LAX. 1, 1 therefore, with which they had nothing whatever to do, in which they had in his opinion no business what ever to interfere. His Noble and Learned Friend had disclaimed any intention of wishing to intro du.,e his motion with any particular reference to the case of the Sudbury Disfranchisement Bill, in which Mr. Roebuck was to be heard at their Lordships' bar. But if his Noble Friend had no such wish, it was cer tainly a strange circumstance that his Noble and Learned Friend had introduced his motion the very day before Mr. Roebuck was to have been heard. With regard to that Learned Gentleman, he would take that opportu nity of saying that a more inflexible man in public and private life lie had never known ; and after he had said that, it was but small praise to add, that he had never known a man of larger information and greater ability. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said he saw no reason why they should interfere in the present case by introducing a new Standing Order. Lord CAMPBELL replied. He disclaimed any in tention of introducing his motion for the purpose of pre venting Mr. Roebuck, as an individual from heir g heard at their Lordships' bar. The reason why he had brought for ward his motion before that Hon. annearned Gentleman had been heard was, that the fact of his having been so heard, might not be quoted as a precedent against him self in bringing the subject under the consideration of their Lordsips. He defended his motion on the broad principle, that a man should not be a judge and an advo cate in the same cause. The motion was then put, and negatived without a division. The Court of Chancery Offices Abolition Bill went through Committee, was reported to the House, and ordered to be read a third titre to-morrow. LIMITATION OF ACTIONS (IRELAND) BILL. The Order of the Day having been read for the second reading of the Limitation of Actions (Ireland) Bill, The Earl of GLENGALL opposed the motion. The Bill involved considerations of great importance which, he thought, could not be fully considered at the present advanced stage of the session. The Archbishop of ARMAGH supported the Bill. Its object was to assimilate the law in England and Ireland. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE hoped the Bill would not now be persevered with. It involved various and complicated details ; and, he thought, that nothing but evil consequences could follow from a hasty inter ference in the case on the part of their Lordships Lord Cottenham, the Earl of Wicklow, and the Bishop of Derry, spoke in favour of the Bill. The Earl of GLENGALL again expressed his dis approval of the Bill. The LORD CHANCELLOR supported the Bill. Its would be best discussed in Committee. After some further conversation, the Bill was read a second time, and was ordered to be committed on Tuesday. The Drainage (Ireland) Bill was read a third time and passed. The Election Petitions Trial Act Continuance Bill, and the Wide-streets (Dublin) Bill went through Committee. The Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction Bill, and the Licensed Lunatic Asylums Bill were read a third time and passed. The South Australia Bill went through Committee, and was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. Some other Bills were forwarded a stage, and the House adjourned. HOUSE . OF COMMONS, July 28. The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour. SOUTHWARK IMPROVEMENT BILL. The Lords' amendments to this Bill were agreed to. ATHLONE ELECTION. Lord G. SOMERSET brought up the Report of the General Elections Committee, fixing Monday, the 22d of August, for the appointment of a Committee to try the merits of a petition against the return for the borough of Athlone. COURT ()F EXCHEQUER (ENGLAND) BILL. On the motion of Sir G. CLERK this Bill was read a third time and passed. WESTERN AUSTRALIA BILL. The Report of the Committee on this Bill was re ceived, and to-morrow was appointed for the third reading. DONCASTER. Mr. S. WORTLEY presented a petition from Doncaster, stating that that town contained 11,000 inhabitants, who were distinguished for their good sense, honour, and loyalty ; and the petitioners prayed that if it was contemplated to transfer the' elective privilege from any borough, the claims of Doncaster might be considered. CLASS LEGISLATION. Mr. HUME presented a petition against class legislation, and all restrictions upon food. The Stamp Duties Assimilation Bill was read a third time and passed. BANKRUPTCY LAW AMENDMENT BILL. Mr. MACKINNON gave notice that in Committee on the Bankruptcy Law Amendment Bill, he should move a clause to the effect that no party after he had completed his 70th year should be imprisoned under any bankruptcy law. RAJA OF SATTARA. Mr. HUME gave notice that he should to-mor row present a petition from the dethroned Raja of Sat tara. COMMON LAW COURTS (IRELAND) BILL. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that the Order of the Day for the Committee on the Common Law Courts (Ireland) Bill should be read, for the purpose of being postponed. FRENCH CLAIMS. Mr. DIVETT rose to put a question to the Right Hon. Baronet as to the present state of the proceed ings of the joint French and English Commission, on the claims of certain English merchants for serious injuries to their ships and property by the French au thorities in the Bay of Portendic. So far back as 1832 very serious outrages were committed upon British merchants, and in the course of time a Commission was appointed by the Trench Government, but he was sorry to say that it only led to protracted discussion on the part of the French Government ; and questions of that sort actually involved the neces sity of reprisal on our part ; therefore it behoved them to approach the subject with great delicacy, and not to produce irritation. This was a subject which in volved the peace of France and this country, and the peace of the world. He had brought the subject under the consideration of the House, in order to ob • tain from the Right Hon. Baronet an expression of his opinion with respect to these proceedings. He had little doubt what the nature of that expression would be, because on several occasions the Right Honour able Baronet had spoken in a manner which showed that his opinion was in favour of those persons who were suffering under those proceed ings. In a speech delivered by the Right Honourable Baronet, on the Navy Estimates, in February, 1842, he spoke in strong terms of the conduct of the French Government, and he said he did not think that they could be vindicated in the course they had taken. He (Mr. Divett) thought it right to state to the House the means which the French Government adopted to appropriate to itself the trade with the Por tendic. The Hon. Gentleman was proceeding with the detail of the unjustifiable manner in which the French Government proceeded to interrupt their trade with the Portendic, for which purpose they carried on a war with the people north of the Senegal, creating a loss to the claimants of not less than 100,0001., when Mr. ROEBUCK rose to order. He did not think that the Hon. Gentleman was justified in discussing at such length a subject respecting which he had merely given notice of putting a question.—(Hear, hear.) He therefore wished to know whether the Hon. Gentleman was in order. The SPEAKER said that the Hon. Gentleman having risen to put his question on the Order of the Day for going into Committee upon the Common Law Courts (Ireland) Bill, it was impossible for him to interfere. Mr. ROEBUCK said he understood that all mat• ters arising upon moving the Orders of the Day should be merely relevant to those Orders, otherwise he should not have risen. If it were otherwise, it Would raise the question upon the resolutions he was about to move. Mr. DIVETT said that he did not wish to do any thing which would be contrary to the sense of the House. The Hon. Gentleman was, however, enter ing at length upon the subject, when Sir ROBERT INGLIS rose to order. He begged to repeat the call made upon the Hon. Member by the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath, to confine himself to the question of which he had given notice. Mr. DIVETT said it was necessary for him to make a statement relative to the question, but as it appeared to be against the feeling of the House he would sit down by merely putting the question of which he had given notice. Sir R. PEEL said, that as the Hon. Gentleman had determined to bring the subject under the consi deration of the House in the form of a question rather than of a motion, he thought it incumbent on him, in answering that question, to adhere to the ordinary rules by which the conduct of Ministers in answer ing questions was regulated. He was not at li berty to enter into the discussion, but he was justified in answering the quesiion put to him. What ever feelings he might entertain on the subject of these claims—and they were strong—he thought the wiser and more dignified course to pursue was to abstain from all harsh and contumelious terms.—(Cheers.) And if he used forbearing and temperate language, it should not be thought incon s i s t en t with the strong' feelings which he entertained as to the justice •of the claims of those persons whose interests were involved in the subject. At an early period of the session he held out strong ex pectations that these claims would be satisfactorily arranged, and his Noble Friend, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, held out similar expecta tions. He was not, however, enabled 1.3 col:fit - LA these expectations, but he could assure the Hon. Gen tleman that he gave no expectations which he was not justified in giving, in consequence of the assurances which the Government had received. The Hon. Gen tleman who was interested in these claims, more from a sense of their justice, he was sure, than from any personal interest he had in the matter, wns, he sup posed, aTvzire r-lvt ' - between . . r. Government, and he thought it was better that the matter should remain in its present state,• than raise any discussion which might throw impediments in the way of the settlement of the question ; and when he looked to the origin of those claims , the delay and interruption thrown in the way of th e i r a dj ustment, he could not but feel confidence that a great country like .France, animated by i s, strong sense of j ustice and keen feelings ofhonour, wou'' compel a just settlement of these claims to be made. As he had before stated, he would not say more 0 0 this subject ; he thought the Hon. Member had el ; ercised a sound discretion in putting a question ontiq and not making a distinct motion. He trusted, how ever, that the Hon. Gentleman would not construe the forbearance and moderation with which he had spoken on this question into any indifference as to the importance of the sub;ect.—(l-fear, hear.) Mr. DIVETT said he should be quite content with the statement of the Right Hon. Baronet, on the assrlr' mice that the subject should not be allowed to sleep' but would he followed up by the Government. Sir R. PEEL said within the last few days a cm' munication had been made to the French Govern; ment, the delivery of which had only been postponed in consequence of that lamentable event, which, Ns ha t ; ever might he thei.r political feelings, he was sure had excited the deepest sympathy with the sufferings o f the Royal Family of Frarce.—(Hear, hear.) What ever delay might occur, he was quite sure that the British House of Commons would respond to the feeling he h a d expresse d , b ot h towar d s F rance an the Royal Family, on the subject.—(Hear.) LAW CO'[JRTS (IRELAND) BILL. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, e ll the motion for reading the Order of the nay' for goin g i n t o C omm i ttee on t hi s Bi ll, said that it was one of great importance, involving tl' e r interests of a great nu m b er o f p ersons; a prope inquiry into wh ose cases would require communicatio n with the authorities in Ireland. In the present 5 0 1. of the bu s i ness o f th e H ouse, an d t h e importance °., giving a full co ns id era ti on t o th e su bj ect, h e f ou nd ?' impossible that this inquiry could be gone into t h , session, or the Bill p rocee d e d w ith. B ut he fUI wished to g i ve no ti ce th a t at t h e commencemen t the next ses s i on , he-should certainly renew a Bill whio would give effect to the provisions of the present one! in order to ensure th a t sav i ng o f expense w hi c h he -was sure would be the ultimate result. Mr. O'CONNELL concurred in the propriety °f postponing the Bill. The Bill was then postponed. CONFERENCE DEPUTATIONS TO VIE MINISTRY. Mr. FIELDEN, seeing the Secretary of State f °l ' the Home Department i n hi s pl ace , w i s h e d t o put , a question to him o n a ma tt er p ersona l to himsel f In the report of the interview of the Delegates from the manufacturers in London with the Right 1 -I ° ll ' Baronet, on the 26th inst., as given in the Morro . it Chronicle and other newspapers of yesterday, thel appeared this s t a t emen t : "Si r J. G ra h am sa id that it appeared from a statement made by Mr. Fielder), the Member for Oldham, that the improved machinery' h a thrown out of employment 35 per cent. of the hands„,e, a ; gaged in the mill s w h ere it h a d b een adopted." The question he (Mr. Fielden) wished to ask the Right fle fl c i Baronet was, first, :whether he had said what belt , been reported to have said ; and secondly, if he to what statement of his (Mr. Fielden's) he referral' Sir J. GRAHAM, before replying to the questl e of the Hon. Memb er , wou ld jus t o b serve that f could not hold himself resp ons ibl e f or th e re ports,° . what had taken place on the occasi o n re ferred tO e Be would make one observation in passing. If th b e ti ' t reports were published, not on any authority, from ex parte statements drawn up from ", mere recollection of the parties themselves, o fi e fidential, he might almost say familiar, intercours_ which at present took place between deputations fro:, the country and the Ministers of the Crown, must not cessarily be destroyed, and it would be the duty , Ministers in their interview s with suc h b o dies to pre _ serve a rigid, he might almost say a s u ll en. silence. - :i (Loud cheers.) The Honourable Gentleman that he (Sir J. Graham) had misrepresented . (Mr. Fielden). He (Sir J. Gr a h am ) h a d eert 3P : o '. asked a question of the Deputati on re l a ti ve to the in' troduction of machin er y i n to th e co tt on mantilp,,, ; tories of late years, and as to the effe c t s produced i _L' that introduction. He had certainly asked o°4 question, and if he recollected rightly he had heto in the Hon. Member for Oldham state, in his plane Parliament, that within the last five years new fli a. chinery had been introduced into the cotton mannt ture, the effect of w hi c h h a d b een t o di m inish t employment of manual labour thirty per cent., and that .consequently manual l a b our h a d b e en displac e to that extent. He h a d as k e d th e gen tl e men of Deputation if they agreed with the statement of Hon. Member for Oldh am , th a t manua l labour /:s c , t been displaced by machinery in the cotton rannui 6 . ture during the last five years from 30 to 35 P„,,, . °r ten t h e The Deputation stated that they differed fr om Hon. Gentlemen in opinion. He (Sir J. c had stated to the best of his recolleceor v passed. If the Hono u r a bl e Gentleman e ked him de (Sir James Grah am ) t o w h a t particular bate he referred, as the one in which the Hon- Member had m a d e th a t statement he would admi t ' h a t had - that he could not r e f er t o th e particular debate, but he had a strong impression on his mind that the Hon. Member had made some such _ statement in his place in Parliament. If the Hon. Member on" tradicted him he was bound to bow to the Hon' Member's more perfect. recollection, but he certainly' had asked the question bona fide, under the i m p r ession that the Hon. Gentleman had made such a statement' Mr. FIELDEN had no recollection of ever ,haring, made any such statement, either in the House or 0 0 " of the Rouse. It was impossible he could have O ne so, because such a statement would be at varianc e with the fact, mad with every thing he had spoken or written on the subject. In proof of this would refer the Right Hon. Secretary to the form ° 1 " a petition - he (Mr. Fielden) had drawn u p in 1 . 841, when it was expected there would be further legishr . tion on the factory question, and a copy of whir, with other papers, he placed in th e ha n d s of flee Right Honourable Baronet the First L or d of In ," e Treasury, when he honoured him with an intervie!: on the 4th of October last, and in that document he had stated that in 1840, as compared with 1835, in the county of Lancaster the increase of turning ma . chinery was 53i per cent., the increase of the con' , sumption of cotton 44 per cent., and th e increase. o f the number of hands employed in th e factories orai 21 per cent• He would take an opportunity of gi g' ing to the Right Hon. Secretary a copy of this draft petition, and humbly recommend the f ac t s co ntaine d in it to his serious attention. • Sir J. GRAHAM said he thanked the Hon. Gelc tleman for the explanation which he had g i ve n, 05 1 exculpated him for the charge of inaccuracy. Sir R. PEEL said he could confirm what the 11 0. Gentleman (Mr. Fielden) had stated, as it was sistent with what he had said in October last. i:` . ; protested against the course purs ue d, i n re portil'. those interviews ; it was rather hard that, after giviL i° two hours of most patient attention to the Depor; tion, he should be made responsible f or a repo" which was totally inaccurate in the general imPr e6 ' sion it conveyed. 4e Mr. AGLIONBY called the attention of th(!. Boy to a misrepresentation in the Times newsi r aper m what he had stated last ni g ht w ith regar d . to 7, borough of Carlisle. He wa s th ere re p or t e d t o b 3„ said that before the period o f th e Reform ]3ill the v ii was hardly an election which was less expensive tit the election for the borough of Carlisle, an d that si% that period it had been one of the mos t e: tpensive, h j e the country. What he did stat e was , tl tat till "" f period of the Reform Bill, there was no conis tituev e : more expensive; that since the Reform Bill, the er p ; pense had been extremely small, and that the prae_ti l ;a of head-money had never existed since tha.:t per'. until the last election. The St. Asaph and Bangor Preferm en t B I M We l ' through Committee. Mr. O'CONNELL postponed the motion of vol l he he had given notice with respect t o th e ca 6e o f , Queen against Duffy, in consequ e n ce ( as IN und c ,.,;; stood) of the absence of the Solicitor-Gel teral Ireland. MERCHANT SERVICE. Captain FITZROY rose t o move f or leave to btf, in a Bill t o requ i re an d regulate the Rl4jfie nation of all persons who wished t o I) ec °l j s . masters or chief mates of merchant ve ge s k The Honodrable Gentleman said he woli'd the House in the first place what was the preset dition of our mercantile marine ? Sin ce the r i n our merchant vesseN had increased exceeding Y, by : number. The cessation of war had been folio of the spread of our shipping over every 1 y es 'the globe. During the war the m erc hant sets of this . country sailed in convoys, or in ' twi t ; f ou nd_ tb,e it panics of two or three. At present they bearing singly to every quarter of the g lobe, became additionally necessary to ascertain the c 3 .13 fications of the commanders. The East India- Corn' pany's marine was the last mercantile establishment in which an examination of officers was insisted 11 1 )°11 In our immense mercantile marine, numbering UP: wards of 20,000 vessels, of about 500 tons burth i e t 'i; there was no examination of kind : v ,.. ' of respect to the ri,.;;: ., . ,- 1 4 ,:o7! -.:,• :••,, " o ever able :1?1.1 _:F commanders rdgh 1 ' 11 2 5 instances in which the indignation of 'Englishmen 7 d roused at the condi: .t of those w!!t , were intros ` . l . ,m" •• with the e.., - 1 - , ‘ 7 • ' cu b . , c t. Government would be directed to the su Je., His present object wa s t o i n t r oduce a m easure d which had been prepared by a great rannbr e practical and experienced persons connected with shipping interests. He would remind the House thatthe i one of the m os t mar k e d recommendations n , in Report of th e t e r r i n tt et s ,shish h9d • • of Boards should be constituted for the examination ht Officers in the merchant service. It plight be hoUg 'Perhaps OWner 44).11Unant ODITA mod= 'Lile len u 4 , 4 ,_ pnkc "ze the rye s o f 1 : le Once THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY MORNING, JULY 29, 1 342. , •`4, :/T'