The Sun. — London, England, 1820-07-15 00:00:00

PARLIAMENT, HOUSE OF LORDS, JULY 14. BANK NOTES. Lord HOLLAND presented a Petition from Mr: James. Ferguson, Stereotype Printer, of New man-street, Oxford-street, setting forth his claims to the consideration of Parliament in the way of remuneration, on the ground of his having sub mitted to the _Wank Directors several years since, a Plan for the Prevention of Note Forgery, the leading principle of which he described and termed as the Intersection Plan," which he al leged was to a certain extent adopted in the plan which the Directors -eventually approved, and are now acting upon ; and praying to be heard by himself and his Counsel in support of his said claims.---The petition vms referred to the Com mittee on the Bill. PROTE'ATANT DNs ENT ERS. Lord - II oL r..t N D then presented a Petition from a number of Dissenting Congregations, asserting their loyalty and unshaken, attachment to the Constitutional Establishments' of the realm, and complainingof the operation of those laws----(we believe principally the Test Act.),which infringed their just and natural rights, in consequence of their worshipping the Deity according to - their own consciences, &c., and praying relief.—The petition was ordered to lie on the table. _ . PRISON RS IN RS GANCASTER.. • Earl GRO4VENOR . presented a Petition from a number of Prisoners confined in the Castle Gaol at Lancaster,. who were • committed for High Treason in the first instance, and ifterwa:rds.cOn fined on charges - of Misdemeanours, ,complaining of various alleged hardships and - grievances, of being compelled to work in a way in which they were not required by law ; of having the regular gaol allowance withheld frorn.them . , , and other al- - leged procedures of hardship and oppression, and praying relief. The petitism was ordered to lie on the tabl. CALICO PRINTF,R. The Earl of LAUDERDALE presented petitions from numerous Calico Printers in the Metropolis, in favour of the Calico Manufr.cturers'-Bill. Eikr INDIA vot.uNTEEtts. The East India Volunteers' Bill passed through a Committee, after a few words from the Earl GROSN'ENOR, approving of that description of force, and was reported without amendment. ALIEN BILL. The Alien Bill 'ivas, on the motion of Lord Viscount SIDMOUTII, ordered to be read a se cond time on Tuesday, the Lords to be sum moned. THE .QUEEN. . REPORT OF THE COMNiiTTEE OF PRECEDENTS. The Earl of SHAFTESBURY presented the Re port of the Committee appointed to search for precedents respecting. the communicating a list of witnesses to persons -accused. The Report was read by the Reading Clerk at_ the Table,. stating that the Cominittee had carefully search ed back to a very early period, but found no in stance of a Bill of Attainder, a. Bill of Pains and Penalties, or an Impeachment, in which a list of witnesses was granted to the accused. 'The Re- port proceeded to State, that they found only two eases, (and those of impeachment) in any mate rial respect differimg from the rest ; and of those the particulari were quoted, namely, the case of Mr. John Bennet, Judge of the PrerogatiVe Court of Canterbury, in 16c21 ; and that of the Earl of Strafford, in .1640. In these cases, as well as we could collect from the rapid reading of the Report, the substance of the chaiges was communicated to the accused, but not any list of witnesses. The Report was ordered to lie upon the table. MOTION FOR A LIST *Of wrrNEssEs. Lord EnstusE rose to bring forward his pro mised motion on this question. On a former evening he observed, that from what fell froth the Noble Earl opposite, in the course of some inci dental discussion of this important point, it ap peared to him that the Noble Earl had not forrned . his mind into any distinct decision on the question, which was an additional inducement to him (Lord E.) to come for Ward. If a- list of the witnesses were not to be given, the Illustri o'as Accused, in all probability, could not have a proper opportunity to prepare for her arduous defence. In stating the question, and considering what the nature of the Bill itself was, he did not mean to - contend that lists of witnesses were always communicated ; but when its peculiar form and tenor were duly considered, he 'Meant to Show the abSolute necessity; in point of fairness and justice, of their Lordships agreeing to his motion. The charges set forth by the 13111 were certainly of a criminal nature 4 or they were no charges at all, upon - any principle of law and justice. The Bill commenced with stating that her Majesty, SO long ago. as 1814, being then 'absent froth this country, and for several successive years, had acted in a way unmindful of her own high cha racter and station—had conducted herself in ft Way both in public and in private, highly unbe coming in various instances ; and it went on fur- , ther to allege that she had carried on a disgrace ful and adulterous intercourse with one Bartolo- Mo Bergami, and which continued for a long period during the Royal residence abroad ; so that this criminal intercourse was not stated as occurring at any particular place or time, but at periods within the interval of, six years, and at • places of remote distances from each other. This view of the Case would alone confer a peculiarity Of • ,character upon it./ Their Lordships were aware-that their tribunal, which was the source of all the statute law, was not bounded by those rules which were prescribed- to the inferior Courts of Justice, and that it was within their powerto impart a degree of indulgence to indi viduals brought before Its Tribunal, which it was beyond the power of the Courts below to confer or alloW. In this view, the whole proceeding shoulik be carefully reviewed, and they had to consider whether the Illustrious Accused was not placed in a situation, under the admitted princi nie of the Bill which fairly entitled her to what he was about to propose. If it could be shown frofn . any. quartet' of the House that it was incon- ' sistent with those principles of liberality and justice, the application of which were in their Ladship's power, to grant that indulgence which he called for, and which the peculiar nature of the case, in common fairness, demanded, then he should willingly withdraw his motion: He wish ed now, however, that the-Sca'les of justice should be held with art even hand ; and that no indul gencel incompatiOe with the principles of real justice, should lie imparted. In all cases of High Treason, ,copies of the Indictments, and Lists of -the 'Witnesses were given ; and .far , ther, a desc.ription 6f all the Jurors - that may he impannelled, that- it-may be known who and what they are, with a view to an ample scope of challenge on the part of the Accused. A List, of all the Witnesses was peculiarly necessary in all cases of the kind, with a view to the ascertainment of situation and character. It was with a reference to all these considerations. and circumstances that they would have. to try the validity of the im . portant charge-against her Majesty. There were numberless considerations referable to the charge, a-n(1 arising out of the situation of the Illustrious Accused, and the societies in which she felt into in Various .countries, which called for the utmost caution and nicest discrimination in deciding up- on. Undoubtedly there were many cases of di vorce from time to time before their Lordships, but not one instance in the least comparable, in point of importance or difficulty of decision, with that in question. Here were none of those ad vantages which were possessed by the crowds of cases, the gradations and different forms of trial and investigation which they underwent in vari ous Courts below, before they came to their Lordships • Bar for the final adjudication.. Let the long lapse of time, in the space of six years, be considered, the nurnber of witnesses, and the length of time which their examination must un avoidably take up; all which considerations com bined to evince the necessity, in point of justice, of furnishing the accused with a list of Witnesses Was it fair, he would ask, that theevidenee,:par• tially given (as must be the case, in the event ol those circumstances which the .rejection of his motion must induce) should go forth to the pub ; lic, whose anxiety to see - justice impartially ad ministered must naturally be great, and who must be 'dis,gusted.at seeing the protraction of the Trial which must otherwise ensue. It should always be remembered (and in saying this, he no charge against Ministers - of any thing that in their mind's was not fair and honourable),. that they were all subject to the laws---laws which were the boast and glory of England. If they had no means of averting those alternatives which he ap prehended, then the case would be different ; but every thing required was constitutionally. .Within their power, and they were bound to act commensurately with the great principles of ho nour and of justice. What was now asked for he felt to be highly material to the justice of her Majesty's Ca-se. The enormous, the nlmost death dealing penalties of the Bill, should be seriously considered in / the minds and bosoms of their Lordships : they had to consider all those diffi culties the Illustrious Accused had to contend with, the peculiar obstacles which the nature of the case presented,' and the close and combined investigation Which the rules of strict justice wouledemand. Let them cast their eyes to the ancient times, and at the period when the statute of William was deethed adequate to the counter action of the highest offences against the State ; by this and' the co=operating laws on those great subjects, a" list of the witnesses was required by all to be supplied to the accused, and which he urged in the present instance should be commu nicated to her Majesty's Law Advisers, with a reference to the 'due and impartial administration of justice in the serious and important case of the illustrious accused. The Noble and Learned Lord concluded by moving--- 1. That a List of the Witnesses to - be examined in the Case of her Majesty, be communicated to her Majesty's Legal Advisers. 2. That the cOmmankation of such Witnesses shall not exclude the examitration of any other - Witnesses that may be judged necessa , y. • a. That a Copy of these Resolutions he transmitted tq bar Majesty's Law Advisers forthwith. The Lon]) CHANCELLOR rose and stated, that on all occasions, but More especially one like the present, he felt himself called upon faithfully to discharge those duties which his situation, and being a Member of their Lordships' House, had imposed upon him. The House were emphati cally called upon to consider this important ques-, tion in itS different bearings and relationS. In deciding upon sitch a case, it was becoming to look to the principles and practice of those times, when caSesMore or less similar in their-Hatt/1 - es, were considered of and decitiod upon and they were not all Owed -to determine for - thetnselves in matters of fact or of law where precedents strictly apposite, were. to be .found clear and ap plicable. The great principles, of known law and of impartial justice were solely to regulate their conduct, and those .priociples equally ap plied to all the subjects of thertahn. -.No- man living could doubt that, a list of •witnesses com municated. to the accused would be of great ad vantage to a person whose duty it was to cross examine those witnesses. On. the other hand, it was to - be considered what the great principles..of law and justice prescribed, and upon a fair pre suming, what mischiefs may „result from such a disclosure. When they were 'called upon to "a, strict examination of witnesses in general cases, and also with respect to the statute upon which his Noble and Learned .Friend laid so touch stress, he would. say to him, in the spirit and lan guage of as great a Lawyer as ever this country produced (Mr. Justice Foster) ; that no man of common sense could deny that that statuteworked great injustice. His Noble Friend had admitte d that an improvementupon an excellent thing was still more excellent; but how. was this possible to be done in this case ? They should consider the necessity that results from this catfe. When he, had officially to prosecute for High Treason, he was emphatically told that he could not examine a single witness that was not in the list ; that he could not call one witness, the best:he might have to produce, who was not so specified. Were a fact done with the knowledge of fifty pers'Ons f not_ one of these could he call, thongh it was fm= possihe he coUldloresee baseness ailti perjury on .the paNti, of ..witnesses on the other side. if his Noble Friend, titughlme of the Jnos tured men liVing, had been 'Attorney-General in such circumstances,' he'wotild have grumbled much more than himself, if 'so restricted; But . the laW was cltar and pdgitive upon the amino man's Opinion Should go to destroy it ; but when his Noble. Friend, by a parity of law, was . placed in such a situation, he-found the absolute necessity of departing from it, as he argued- it was improper to withhold a -list of the witnesses s which, according to the statute, could nut be far nished, If , the-wisdom of ages never adopted a , clear and strut course, would they, in consider ing a case like the present, deliberately depart from it ? With respect to the practice of the Courts below, however partial he might be to those of their Lordships' llonse,' - it could not be assimilated to then/. The 'Legislature alone was competent to apply a statute to the proceedings of Parliament. The statute of William enjoined no such thing as the communication of a list of - witnesses ;' and he would ask his Noble Friend, what would . beecime of the Administration of Justite, either in chit or criminal matters, if such a list of witnesses were to be given preirious to the commencement of investigation ?. When just causes of delay Were shewn,. delay was alwayS granted. With respect to the particular case referred to, on account of the illukriotis rank: of the person accused, which his Noble Friend seemed to think constituted a "ground of exception, he would ask, how could such exception be made with safety to the general Administration of J ustice ? It there fore appeared tohim, under all the circumstances of the case, that the nnestion ought to be thus considered, whether they would sacrifice the principle that governs the general Administration of Justice ; (and insuch a case he really believed a great essential principle would be so sacrificed), or, follow that course which the long established law clearly prescribed ? If they would not say that they should govern themselves by the strict principles of known law and justice, then they should agree with the motion ; but on the con trary, if - , they felt they ought to govern them selves by these' rules and principles, then their Lordships would feel it their duty (as he strongly felt it to be his), to give the motion a decided negative. s • The Marquess of 'LANA)OWN thought the ar guments of his Noble and Learned Friend upon the_ case conclusive and unanswerable ; , for his part, he thought the motion required no Mote than that which was called for by - the strict jus tice of the 'case. The present question should • be considered abstractedly from all party feeling whatever, and he deprecated any thing that would appear to cast a slur upon their Lordships'. proceedings. Upon the •subject of precedents, he thought those adduced , had , no reference to, nor did they throw any light upon the present case ; it contained no satisfaitory information upon the subject. The present-was a case, which,-in volving a Bill of Pains and Penalties, ought the least of all-others to be regulated by_ precedent. I One of the divisiOns of his Noble Friend's mo tion removed ; he thought, the only, plausible ob jection that could be urged against it. Nothing was collected from a reference to foi - net Bills of Pains and Penalties which. was laid before the House ; if so, they might . have had a regular stream of justice flowing and increasing itself by the force of example and precedent. In another point of view, Bills of the kind were the least to be affected by considerations of precedent. What did that luminous-commentator, Mr. Sets= • tiee Blackstone, say upon the subject ? He sans, c 4 I speak of them (Bills of Pains an d Penalties); they are, enacted, pro maul, subject to la v, and can be referable to no li* _Whatever." Where was the laviyer who attempted to controvert this doctrine ? No ,map, even in this age of book making, had attempted to -controvert it. The House, he contended, eras at full liberty,to in quire what course would be the most .consonant with the adininistering principles of justice. Look= ins at the particular circumstances of the case, the immense difficulty the accused party had to struggle with should be considered. And again, he might say it was their duty to follow that course the most conducive to the substantive ends of justice. Refbrring to the wording of his Noble Friend's motion, he agreed that it could.not OM, sistently,yith justice or reason be rejected by the House. It would go to prevent , any inter ruptien of-the proceedings when once begun ; and on that ground he would appeal - to - the Noble Lord on the Woolsack, or to any. other Jittlge izil the country, if such an advantage -was not to he -expected from . it. Indeed, without such a clear course being adopted, the proceedings were liable to be obstructed from either side, the accusers or the accused, and then the uniform course of kis.; • rice their Lordships' peoc.e.edings may be dis:- turbed. In granting the list of witnesses, he con . tended their Lordships would do nothing militat- • in g against the soleMn, sacred principles of prac tice which, from the high nature of their func tions, they were bound to proceed upon. NM' would they be proceeding contrary to the At of King William, which had been already cited, in giving the accused all the benefit that could be derived from such an indulgence. 'They could, in conformity with that Act, Call new wit nesses if they should see occasion, to hear upon new points. In acceding to the motion of the Noble and Learned. Lord, they were not depart ing from any precedent; for it was acknowledged on all hands that the present occasion could ad ,- ' nut of no precedent, and it was, to him clear, that by following that _course they would avoid a n.ttch greater calarnity and, evil---they would avoid the interruption which must arise in the midst of the proceedings ; as it was allowed by the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Liverpool) that , delay might without heSitation be granted, on Occasion being shown. What could be more con trary to the ordinary rules of justice and more inconvenient, than a delay of from two to three . . motttlis at least occurring. in the course of the proe ceedings ? . And all this inconvenience and Hugs' tice was to be incurred merely.becaUse Ministers would not giVe that information of thich they had been in possession SQ long, and 'Web It. e so necessary to enable the CotinseiNh Vietisea\ pattx-too meet the accusation agains her. s 1 10 'entreated their Lordships 'to reflect on the cone sequences to be apprehended from all that had transpired at the bar of that Horiseall the ini* . pure and:l'6lll details of the accusation against lid Majesty', going forth to the public• to be canvass" 'ed and Commented upon, without their Lordships liting able to take' any steps to stop it. Ile cone juiced their Lordships to look at the state of Os public mind at:present, and to consider the in" creased state of inflammatiOn into which it would. be thrown by this circumstance, and then td, .weigh in their minds whether it was worth whil e ,, to incur. this by' refusing the simple 'request nod' made, on the grounds which he had stated. Be ; 'cause he' thotight it would be fUrthering the ends of justite, and entibljiig their Lordships to deal more speedily with the case, he should give his vOteldr the motion of his Noble and Learned Friend. Lord -LtvEapoor. said, there were few ques" tions of this description on which he had beed more anxious to delivet his sentiments than 4.. this ; because he must know but little of his Org, feelings,' or: of the character of the qUestion ,deliberation, if he could be induced tij 'hesitate one moment, after the appeal of the Illustrious' Personage," or - of 'the Noble and .Learned (Lord Erskine.) He was ready to agree witll • 'that Learned Lord that a Bill of Pains arid' Penalties' was :against all the ordinary rules and' principlesof Law. He was also ready to agre° with him that in' the .present case they ought td 4 proeeed . not by , ,precedent, nd .precedent, but by the forms a. principles of-substantial justice. But at the sin- 1 8 time he would contend that it was right for theol to`know how the precedents'stood after the BO bad been placed on the' table. Supposing it had, appeared that the precedents pointed the o thee way—that they were in favour of a list of wit' nesses being granted, lie would ask their Lord`. - ,ships whether it would have been easy for theta to have rejected the request for such a list. 10 contended, therefore, that the 'knowledge of pre' cedents was a necessary ingredient in the case, t° discover if light ‘ could'be had in their pr°; ceeding - ; - and it was on these grounds that he liaa supported the motion of a Noble Lord for a search for precedents. lie was ready to admit with th e ,Noble Lord, however, that the present eaf", would admit of no precedents ; wild that if j/ i , w e re consistent with substantial justice, a list 01. witneSSes ought to be granted.(llear, hear!)---- There was one point in the speech of the . Nobl e - and Learned Lord, Wherein he contended that there Was a 'sort of analogy betotWit this case aai, .cases of t high treason, and wherein he- stated a ll the advantages which, under the. Act of Kin 4, William, were given to the party accused, granting a list of the witnesses, on which he desirous of saying a few' wtafci4. The Leao„ Lord said,. he knew there were some'persons• tow - grumbled a little about this Statute eof William. Now, he would say, although his or . nion was that great inconvenience was- incui:ret' under that Statute, and he doubted whether justice it afforded in some instances was equal to 64 , inconvenience it occasioned in others, ,that would not tneddlo with that Statute. He had SC i ' justice, in some instances ; done under it both to 0": Crown and to the accused ; and on that accoau; as well as on account of its long standing, he w e , unwilling to interfere with it. But nevertikele,s-i the principle upon which it had been fouud.etoi., was alway s matter of doubt---not amongst , Jacobites only but amongst the'greatest evil`,' and -- most Constitutional Lawyers'. The ly doubt prevailed With reSpett to '7th-Ann ; wh i. ct whether introduced as an act of justice or an of mercy, enacted that the prictiee of givit l e g er witnesses was not to be in force till itit o the decease of the Pritender, so that this act 4 0 ( a dead letter 'on the statute book for upwar a , s I , seven -years. The case of Lord George Gov" °- e j hz believed, was tli.d first in which it was O l d upon. The Noble and Learned Lord (it` i f a , Erskine) had alluded to the greatest Col'& 4l , i l tional Lawyer—one who had been Most dispo-i el. to favour. liberty ; and what, he would ask-, ,1 / 44 , e , his sentiments on the subject of furnishing , ,i prisoner with a list of witnesses ? lie sait i, it had one advantage in it, it. was calculate" serve many bad purposes. The pu r poses- 'hided to were obvious, and was this single 1.),, vantage 'to weigh against the innumeraM f ;if pu'rposeS ? The accused Was allowed a list the -witnesses, against him whilst the Crow n w i l L at: ndite the'con . trary side ; and therefore, - e cif ever perjury was brought forward by the acc ll e e , , it was not -possible that the Crown could be i r o gf pared to controvert it. In drawing th e alratro, hetWeenlhe present case and cases of big li son, he could-only Say, that however degradgtsitill might, to, a feeling mind, be more than death ' it was not so in legislation. He would saY, o f except in case of treason, the giving list ialj VOtili!SßeS Was open to many, exceptions . . I t ni t :l4 give the accused the power •of bringing 3. iotl' case; it gave him also The eieWer 'Co act "Li, jas' midation. It might be the rrwaris of !q . opP p .' 3 o ° tice her.course.—of preventing their bei n -' .to bring their witnesses fair and free into C °l a tioi 3 (Hear !)---On the 'other band, some consUltor pre: was to be given,to the popular clamour juclice which Might be stirred up so as 0 0 , against the accuser,„ Let those who uteocl. think the law of this country seicentiforei: toward criminals, look at the tribunals o vir 13: c countries, and haVing seen the spirit of ton they Might then turn their regards own country, and pronounce upon its 0-7, . 0 ,-Wo They might then pronounce on those la ' • are the admiration of all foreign cbtalterlef'pc°6' , of every great *Titer ; under which lye + .-14A ' 0 —(Hear.) which o ; W v e c carne ld 1-11 a e iti e ) I f ; rte. 11 . e c s ; l 3 .3 r 4 : ct :s this case, and those prieciples in pa r e t ' be g .ie which there was now a 5 u t es!i l o ,, ri t ; tia n ever i prepared to say on this pent that