The Sun. — London, England, 1849-02-06 00:00:00

: - -- - e - /r e c ut(' exercise a little petriotic discretion in merely re 'ening those speeelles which wore worthy of being r l e l - -tr tied, the other.; would soon be very materially si)ortened.- (Laughter alel cheers.) . ffi Mr. FUME t!lought half en hone a suekeet time that no Member uelit to eeceed an hour. Sir te_ PEEL Wa3 of o Gould be p•nten that every speech, M materially improved if it were limited to one I.?er•—(llear, hear) He certainly had heard the Hon. (,palber f or Montrose frequently exceed that time.— raeghter.) H e b e li eve d, h owe v er , th e y were all de b-cloents. There was a tendency to make speeches of I nd " length, a n d ever y one mus t f ee l th a t a g reat many Neches would have been greatly improved if the argu ments of the speakers had been more condensed. This -211 1 the general impression and if every Member would_ ' le t upon it it would have afar better effect than the of i t en e Po ition of any formal rule. He did not approve h Proposition that Hon. Members should not be allowedmight .t.exceed an hour, because many Lion. Membere t llltilt it gave them a vested right to speak during on the e , e le, and that they were conferring a favour'td eriod.— that pause when they spoke for a more limit , p eil.tighter.) There were many speeches , however,eveeurt, ..... eh Would h ave great ly su ffered by curtim sPeeebes made neither on the introduction ° se ri e g i esl motions ner in rep l y alluded to f - , e of the speeches of Burke, te t re limit some to e n e - leo; and, therefore, by attempting Catining, h a e nd other emi- Z c ir e s the Moose would run the risk of depriving itself_ o tru sted all act on the principle f, public of great instruction.—(Hear, hear.) 1.1 I si "' at lion. Members would d down by the Hon. Member for Manchester.. Members gt'eat dear of time might be saved if Hon. A :ot , ed consider . their arguments—(Flear, hear)—and earticularlv when it was their intention to speak h , if the): v ee ee . 73 , eet attend for a day or two and advanced li s tentot and ar d g i u s. „ - e el lts, and not repeat those already l h' hby any dry ru ew ic rt'rseefdooe—(ilear, hear.) By so doing they would effect be much more useful than might be imposed. The great o p u ri o nciple on which the distinction between i'Veuse ought to act was, to m m ak ent and other Members— hst.eeetolN rs of the G . o those who favoured the House with original 'notionsi,, 114'lelaber mean by a and those _ who did not. What did the Hon. .Minister . speaking in reply ? Did ...." raean every Minister, or merely the one who ..ight immediateTy follow the mover ? It fre tquently happened that a Minister cl ose d th e d e b ate. ea w supp os i ng th e Minister following the mover to eed on e h our , was any other Minister to speak, °P Was it intended that only o ne s h ou ld address the -4008 0 ? The adoption of a ru l e of this kind, without Sta ture consideration, would l ea d to great i nconven i ence. i t Was generally admitted that t oo muc h ti me wa s con itlented in speeches, and th a t too li tt l e was d evo t e d t o 431neSS ; . and the Ho n . G ent l eman oppos i te seeme d . s e t t klY to offer himself as a sacr ifi ce i n t h e fi rst in itilea•—(Laughter.) I% LIUME—If the Right Hon. Gentleman will, I " L gr• -- (Louri laughter.) th'l te r IL PEEL—I will.—(Continued laughter.) As t A'aon. Memb er too k the opportun i ty of so frequently " te esing the House he trusted that he would set a eeed example and would not be offended if, at the ex hint of some fifty minutes, he should receive a gentle s te t that his hour was almost gone.--(Laughter.) He i e rtll ted that those who had been in the habit of speak le to that minutes would adhere to that rule, and that fi ne who usually spoke an hour and a half would con. wee themselves much within the limits prescribed,—. et' hear, and laughter.) tle ir R . INGLIS said the object of the Hon. Member e 4ll. te save the time of the House, but it was not at all r ee l 'elY that it would have the effect of making the :tienum time proposed the minimum.—(Laughter.) ai sli v -_, COBDEN, as a member of the Committee, the mottos to state the grounds on which he should support shat'etion. The Committee were generally of opinion , the delay in the conducting of public business . was tviii r l etk ,t grievance, and every one left the Committee th e t es,e belief that very little had been done to remedy se e : v ". A. similar motion to the present received the 114 1 ef . four members out of twelve, and he did not the that 4 very strong feeling prevailed against . it; but ld hevegenerat impression seemed to be that the evil a'ou eiserst.corrected by the force of public opinion and the see med of lion. Members. The Right Hon. Barnet th at v 6 l to rest his hopes on some vague understanding certeiti;i• Members would limit their speeches to a Seth SelleS e lle ( Air. Cubden) had no faith in any it ooderstanding .being observed, and he believed that lo fe e tleh t ime was likely to be wasted in the present as w ale tnee sessions. No one cculd deny that Honour pea"tinNlembers were often in the habit of re ttild tht parguments which had been used by others, titi on.es 'set .was the House was flooded with rope tllleatl Wear, hear.) Be (Mr. Cubden) had fre which Y, abstained from speaking when the arguments 80„ . Me Lie had intended to use were so well put by other kNoblerabers. With respect to the suggestion of the poVi- Lord that a charge might be brought against a elstee, such charge must be founded on some public liip:ibitaiic;tdktoh_ is colleagues would have to defend him on lodi e • d g r ounds, and therefore it would not rest with one answer_ i‘ a three hours' speech, but his po ',ere e r t , ee defended by a dozen parties. The mem -1-.10,, le Government might be attacked by the whole /L e r, en e d as they formed only a small portion of the 1 46 1 : :e' ex h tra di p d ee n t e% t n See of titne.—j(Hear, any injustice in affording them hear He be "' d that a limitation of time would much improve the uit of the speeches.- 914 (Hear hear.) The great d ie was that they were too diffuse; that Hon. Members " tot k„ t iPt t o P sufficiently to the question, and were too It o t. e l luote fro m H ansard, and the reports to which all ite 3 , thi si nt .ernbers had a ccess. If an Lion. Member had °Ply e," te say, he could say it in an hour. It was 'id el l an Hon. Member had toss noting t.) say, and lik o n et know what he was oine• ly, that he was T he Y to speak for more than g an hour.—(Laughter.) eo eic r k te of Burke was the most unhappy instance that it Wlts '!_ilve been cited by the Right lion . . Baronet ; for te4 o4 ,recOrded that he generally emptied tli Ecouse 'Lie r ose ' eas e . • ii e was called the •` dinner-bell' of the ) arid it was said that And " He went on refining, dircthot!ght of convincing while Hwy thought of kid h e L il g; beeches every one must admit thtadt have been bet te ( ges had been cut into four they wou. li r B Peeches.—(Hear, hear.) that ; P ; NEWDEGATE begged the Home to . consider, q „,', they limited the privilege of discussing great la st tons in that House the result would be to give ad sittege to assemblies out of the House, who would con sei;r the right of discussion as solely confined to theme ()e s ) and look upon that House as the mere record sated of their enactments.—(Hear, hear.) He depre lthe: Any appeal on this question to those who recorded h 0 1 1 1" Passed in that House, because it was only just that t een !_ides of a question should be heard, and there had ptCtlitances when he had occasion to lament that the I,l l e had not had that opportunity.—(Hear.) .: Rouse divided, when there appeared— "r Mr. Gibson's proposition A tainst it 96 Majority against the restriction „ THE ADDRESS. -e h e rd ei• VANE brou ht u the report on the Address g P (l o P t kaiest Y he *. Th e he question that the report be read a second time, tke (4arquis of GRANBY said he hoped he would be 'e lle il re Be l f°l' occupying the attention of the House whilst 4 hree e e ..e. few observations on the Speech from the "ad ere _ .e•That Speech did not place the peculiar position taa;usP cts of the country in a fair light. It greatly eore'eerated t h °r-.tee • e Prosperity of the manufacturing and oue rei al classes, whilst it made no mention whatever of d th e - pezigrrieultural and colonial distress. With respect 4 ff • ,agraPh which stated that " the present aspect ti 'ors 'h e i%cos on th d enabled her Majesty to make large reduc ely on . ! estinvites of last year, he was quite sure that eeeetlete,,,,lee,the House would be most anxiona for such V rz eit te e l . to w nen they Were practicable, but he must be It iliti wtrraesh what prospects this year held out which (Ose was e e i titheni in reducing the estimates , when the ' We er, 6 10 31 eel upon last year to increase them ? th,7. 1 lees as Ile looked in vain for any distinction be e; klov eria d 1849, The Noble Lord at the head of l's, but 'stir said that last year there was a convul reased ' ere was no Convulsion when he proposed e t th West Member k elt o W est s. At that time the Hon. hs eer te ei pe oeh hiding (Mr. Cobden) had just made 1 ate ; ' - lear, g• ecY that there was no probability of war. k t a d " .B ?-... (u :') But what wes the present aspect of 't t , h eY Wo u ' h ell%) Let them look to the Speech, j ail lt h tor ee i d i t i l i ll e see announcenaents there that a rebellion tieseeXisted in l e r ar l still --(Rear, hear)—and had broken out in the Pun re.', the state )—and that a spirit of disaffection 111 11 3? of them wee t t ii h ee ri r.f)o lt " Ictii: jegte:rrre_pd_rr7aueaedtotn:"?nunetit—,sil e.c ( o te n a i r e , s yL h . ear.) At the same as most distressing; very verge- of insurrection. then tos e lect such a time as the' y d navy a v, In sip, di stress es . pect to the omission of any mention of or of th e a„the agricultural districts, ho could not NI,. its mien .tertnrceot were ignorant of its existence, Did they imagine that the growing 144!iseleetdiebIthatsithYe. free trade system had failed would be th v o slbe eeiz i w i tt e Vl mean% as these?—(Hear, hear.) He re beelle measures the prophecies which were made when ee :ttl ~ were passed, that wages would rise and 1 ;7 bee„uulefer halfprice. How had these prophe ef,at was y e rifled? lie would just show the House iTeesterah:tile condition of the labouring classes in ell ‘ttn e of e Lincolnshire before and since the so w e weretttwese measures. In those counties the old gall she '? eive shilling& For a family of five per _ team take__ 21. 4 e _ one of coarse flour to each mouth, at s. d. alb zd. • meatyof ••• ... ..• ••• ... 5 5 at 60. ... -- ... 174 ... 7 ci F r Total expenses 1, 4 tri l d per week ... ado a w ages, los. 1,. r. 2i ston egt , at 51d. es at ls. 10d. ... ... •.• ••• ••• ••• 11h • Total exp enses per week .. 5 Ili ,qh;l„t,, , Cr less than the old prices by 1 1 tire labourer's wages were 2s l he ••• ti l's " I Id. per week. He asserted ess• was worse N k t'as that all the legisla ) pi o ures of the Government had tended to red '4 Y t a home , uce b ,, t) or ent at to give to the foreigner, and to i k i l ) 4l hi a ° ats. How could they eat), the farmer to ex -4 ° ere c apital on the land, or to give employment to e 1 t'e r ', with wheat at 455. a quarter ?— (Hear, hear.) re, g:etted IN„,_ Government had not thought fit to show )] 4.4.lPath for those suffering classes, who were 4,, y 0 ,.. y he r leas inced that their distress arose from the free 4 ures which had met with the approbation of hitkr. illnk's Ministers. ittkor „-,,,,,1tE he wished to take that opportu 1' 'a lf -"tnig ` . ns to the Noble Lord tte off Decor two questio absence of the 4 . id,lat the Government, in the . n the % , ,1,7 1 ' , + 4; 9 4 the Board of Control. He * had seen i Bra ts tliVari N er ald a statement to the effect that the from teLesett_sed their Customs' duties on imports h ei oa Neo lv i f Y h to „.. r t an almost unlimited amount. He wis d "'A tph; i ltt Was true, and, if so, what were the am ' the duties had been raised ? He willied ... 4 7 .. 1 4i li its of o ly he n- rn up Ho less reze the o in int the the rain ;eat >use mid üb her 3 it ome uld did the uld an r~~ T B SUN.. _ to know alio whether any account of the tariff of Por tugal or Spain had been received since the last assem blage of Parliarnent ? Last session a motion was made requiring our consuls to send over thoSe tarn, but those ord-rs never had been obeyed. He was the more sur prised at this because our friendly relations with Por tugal never had been disturbed, and there was a core petent person at the Court of Li s b on to furnish su documents, and, although ou r intercourse with the Court of Spain was broken, he understood from the Noble Lord at the close of last session that we still re tained a Consul there perfectly capable of discharging . his duty in protecting the subjects of this realm, and in watching over the interests of our trade and commerce. Whilst he was upon this subject he might be per mitted to answer the inquiry made by the Noble Lord (Palmerston) the other night, as to whether, in revenge for the affront we had received from Spain, he (Mr. Baunkhe.) w ould go to war with her ?—(Hear, and a g The Noble Lord at the same time assured him a that he must not take to himself the credit of having caused the eXpulsion of the Spanish Minister. He begged to assure the Noble Lord he never assumed nor desired to assume any credit in tl•es matter, for in his mind there never had been a more bungling piece of business, nor one less likely to vindicate the honour of this country. The Minister of Spain was allowed to re main here for many days after our representative at the Court of Spain had arrived in London, affording a proof of the grefttest insult one nation could inflict upon another.—(Rear, hear.) If he (Mr. Bankes) had had the management of affairs, he trusted the Spanish Minister would not have been allowed to remain here, as Ambassador, for as many hours. M. Isturitz was, no doubt, a gentlemen of the highest charicter, fit to repre sent so gallant a nation ; but he should have been at once informed that he could no longer remain here as the Minister of Spain. In reply to the Noble Lord's inquiry, he begged to say that he would not go to war with Spain; but, if he had the power, he would find ou t w h o was the originator of the insult she had offered to this country. The real originator might be found, perhaps, in England, sittin at that moment on the Treasury bench. The Noble Lord had been pleased to say that the Opposition had become a war party, a charge which came with a very ill grace from the Noble Lord ; for, if they were open to such a charge, it was because they had taken the word of Ministers for it that the estimates of last year were necessary for the public service, and had assisted in carrying those estimates through Parliament, when the effect of an opposite course would have been that the plans of the Government would have been defeated, and Ministers would have lost their seats in the Cabinet. The words of the Noble Lord were, that the force then proposed was " necessary to a man." " Who," it had been said, " asked them to con gratulate the Crown upon the improving state of commerce, manufactures, and the revenue?" With reference to the expression of " satisfaction," which appeared on that subject in the Address, he (Mr. Bankes) could not join in that expression when he found that not ono Member representing the manufac turing interest had said there was a progressive im provement in manufacture s. Would the Honourable Members for Manchester and the West Riding of York shire say that the manufacturing interests were in such a state as to warrant expressions of congratulation? But, till they did so, could Ministers expect Honourable Gentlemen, from complaisance, to join in the expressions of satisfaction employed in the Address? With respect to the revenue, what was the result of the balance , sheet put that morning into the hands of Honourable Mem bers? The last item was the excess of expenditure over income, amounting to 796,4191—(Hear, hear)—then there was a sum of China money, 539,3051., a casual source of 'revenue; and the produce of the sale of old stores, 308,4151, was an item of the same kind. Yet Ministers called on the House, not to congratulate the Crown, but to express satisfaction at a progressive im provement of the revenue. Another million bad been struck off by the removal of the corn duties; and the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) had now bound himselt never to resort again to that source of revenue. " Would you not have done better," they had been told, " had you taken a fixed duty?" But now the Noble Lord said the fixed duty would have dwindled down. Lord J. RUSSELL—You would have had it now. Mr. B ANKES thought that was the most satisiac tory part of the prospects fur the revenue he had yet heard of hear.) When there was no more old stores to fall back upon, the Noble Lord would turn to a fixed duty. Yet it was in such a state of affairs that the House were to be called on, the day after to morrow, to make a new grant for Ireland. Mr. M. GIBSON believed it was true, as now stated, that the English trade in Brazil or the personal rights of individuals connected with that trade were not in so satisfactory a state as they ought to be.—(Elear, hear.) But he attributed that state of matters to the hostile policy pursued towards Brazil with reference to the slave-trade. They were seizing Brazilian ships under the authority of an Act passed by this House without the sanction of any treaty; they were acting only on the principle of might over right. But could it be matter for surprise if some difficulties still remained for trade to contend with, difficulties which had been created by persevering in a system of re striction ? Every one felt that there was an improvement in manufactures and trade.—(Hear, hear.) But every one knew at the same time that it required all the skill, enterprise, and industry that could be brought to bear on the trade of the country to keep it in a state of progressive prosperity. The country gentle men had, as the friends of tenant-occupiers, taken en extraordinary course. First, they did not ask protec tion. That was evaded. The Honourable Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli) never mentioned the word, but spoke of reciprocity.—(Hear, hear.) _ But Honourable Gentlemen threw censure on the Govern ment, because it pointed to retrenchment and economy. The smallest hint that there would be economy in the public expenditure, and reduction in the national arma ments, was received in a tone calculated to excite sur prise. Those Hon. Gentlemen ought to answer the question put by the Hon. Member fur Montrose. What would they have for the farmer?—(Hear, hear.) They came forward as the friends of tenant-occupiers, and yet did all they could to discourage the Executive from retrenchment and economy.—(Hear, hear.) The farmers called for the repeal of the malt tex; an Hon. Member from Essex had made an appeal on the subject. How could such taxes be reduced unless the expenditure were reduced? He was connected with agriculture himself; he felt his interests in tho hands of Hon. Gentlemen ; and he must he permitted to say that if they continued their present course the country would hold them re sponsible for the obstruction of economical measures, and the maintenance of large and unnecessary establish ments. He should besorry to tee agitation carried beyond the point of giving instruction—(lronical cheers)—be cause there could not be any safe legislation which was not founded on public opinion, and it was necessary to form a sound public opinion. The Royal Speech and the Address spoke of " attachment to our institutions," and of " the Constitution, founded on the principles of free dom and justice." That was rather a lofty flight. He wished the tone of the speech had been a little more qualified. He did not like the " matchless Consti tution" doctrine. He thought there were faults, and there were institutions to which there was anything but attachment. He did not believe the Roman Catholics of Ireland were attached to the Established Church of Ireland, or the Dissenters to the Established Church of England. But he wished to know how much had been the free gif s of the Government to the people —how far their privileges under the constitution had been wrested from their rulers by the strenuous efforts of the people themselves ? Therefore he did not dis courage the fair and legitimate discussion of public question:. The Hon. Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire, in calling attention to the expenditure, was assisting the Government to resist the pressure of pro fessions which, if the Executive had not something to lean against, must hurry it into a reckless and extrava gant course. He would only further express the hope that the Government would persevere in its commercial policy, and remove the differential duties which still deformed the tariff. The tenant farmers had a right to say the principle of free competition should be carried oue—(l fear, hear.) He hoped Ministers would bring in a good and whole measure on the navigation laws; if it were as complete as the measure for the repeal of the corn-laws, they would earn and merit the gratitude of the country. Sir J. TYRELL contended that in noticing the omis sions of the Royal Speech the Hon. Gentlemen were doing only what the Noble Lords opposite had done when they used to tear royal speeches to pieces. Seeing the indecent haste with which the Government had adopted the financial scheme of the Hon. Member for the West Riding, it might be imagined that they were actuated by a desire to vamp up his character as a prophet. If Mi nisters adopted the Hon. Member's plan, the least they could do was to give him a place on the Treasury bench. The Government might depend upon it that the agriculturists would not; be des royed without an effort being made on.their behalf. Meetings on an ex• tensive scale were about to take place in the agricultural districts, and the cause of the landed interest had lately obtained the aid of some noble converts in another place. Was it fair that agriculture should be exposed to com petition with the whole world when at the present moment several articles of manufacture were protected by a duty of 10 per cent. ?—(A. Member on the Minis terial side—" Not cotton articles.") He did not allude to cotton ; some persons had nothing but cotton in their heads.—(A laugh.) lie had felt it his duty to support Ministers in their estimates last session, but in conse quence of their conduct upon that point he would sup port them no longer, and would regard the proceedings of his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Ex chequer with great caution. Mr. WODEEIOUSE expressed his concurrence in all that had fallen from his Noble Friend (the Marquis of Granby) with reference to the distressed state of agri culture, and declared that there was every prospect that all persons connected with the occupancy of land would be exposed to intense suffering. Mr. FRE WEN also said that the agricultural interest was in a very depressed state, in proof of which he re ferred to the fact that the Noble Lord (the Member for South Durham) who moved the Address had at present several farms in Sussex thrown upon his hands. In the Weald of Sussex and West Kent it was impossible to find tenants for farms, even at greatly reduced rents. Half the farmers in Kent would be unable to pay the hop duty. Mr. J . O'CONNELL explained that in what he had said on the first night of the session he did not mean to say that L or d Mi nto ha d encourage d th e promoters of disorder in the Papal St •he merely stated the fact that cele a b t ra h te is d Lord Min States; . • other agitators to received Sterbini, Cicerovaccio, and 'lave been said,house. c uff e y a A t V h h i s a What, e s h i d e received the , if a foreign envoy to this country had would Mr. P. RENNET residence? T bore testimony to the distress under which agricult ur lately seen et was labourin g , and stated that he had ter whea . The farmers of good qua li ty se ll f or 38s. per quer their labourers were compe l led to di sc h arge many o f mast to they retained. reduce the wages of those whom LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, He would abstain from entering upon an investigation of the disputed questions connected with th&administration of the poor-law in Ireland. The inquiry into those dis puted points of administration had better be left to the Committee. He would only ray that, although the Go vernment would hell fast to the general principles of the law, he was of opinion that many improvements in it would be found to be practicable and desirable.—(Hear, hear.) What these improvements were would be better stated before the Committee, and he would not go into them now. It had been said that the course taken by the Government would only delay legislation, but so far as the Government were concerned there was no wish for delay. This was now but the third day of the ses sion, and he proposed the appointment of this Select Committee with a view to speedy legislation. — (Hear, hear.) No effort should be wanting on the part of the Government to bring the proceed ings connected with this question to a speedy issue, and to further any future legislation with the view to place the law on a more satisfactory footing.—(Cheers.) Ho made no doubt that the same desire of speedy legislation end of improving the law would animate every gentle man who might serve upon the Committee, end he did not despair of Parliament being able to come, during the course of the present session, to a satisfactory conclusion, and to make several improvements in the general law for the relief of the Irish poor.—(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving for the appoint ment of a Select Committee on the Irish poor-law. Mr. F. FRENCH said that it had been the object of the Irish Members last year to direct the attention of the House to the naturo and inevitable results of the ruinous legislation pursued by the House, by which the property of three-fourths of the Irish land lore's had been annihilated, and whatever energy and self-reliance had existed among the farmers and peasantry had been destroyed. Referring a sub ject to a Select Committee was always understood to be another mode of shelving it for the rest of the session, and the present would be, he feared, no exception to that rule. There never was any law in any country so universally detested by both the ratepayers and the re cipients of relief as the Irish poor law. The average amount of poor-rate in Connaught was 2s. 7d. in the pound on a valuation which was nearly double what it ought to be, while the average rate throughout England was only Is. 6d. in the pound. In several parts of Ire land the rate was proportionately heavy as compared with the poor-rate in England. He desired to ask, would it not be better to leave their lands untilled, like much of the land in the county of Mayo, rather than go on as a large proportion of the people of Ireland were now obliged to proceed? It was thus that many of the people of Ireland felt, and it was in that spirit that they said it was better for them to do that than have the fruits cf their hard labour torn from them by soldiery and police. By the provisions of English legisla tion those who had the administration of the poor law in Ireland were called upon to do four times ' the amount of duty that was imposed upon simi lar functionaries in England; and yet the Irish were taunted with being unfit to manage their own affairs. This was one ground of compla nt; another was, that Government did not state whether or not they would support the recommendation made by the Commis sioners. Before he sat down he wished to remind the English Members of that House that the Irish land owners had not purchased and had not inherited their estates on any such terms as were now sought to be im posed on them. The English had no right to bring the Irish proprietors up to their level in the way of poor law taxation. When he admitted the right of the poor of the country to be supported by the property of the country, he meant that the whole property of the country should support them; not that the land alone should bear the burden. He felt convinced that by a proper system of rating, by making workhouses self supporting, by subjecting all property to a due share of the poor-rates, the whole expense need not exceed 500,0001. a year, and the rating not be above Is. in the pound. Finally, he would add, that some declaration ought to come from the Government calculated to give confidence to the agricultural class in Ireland, and he did not hesitate to say that if they were not inspired with some degree of confidence at the present season, the i greater part of Munster and Connaught would remain unsown. Mr. FAGAN observed, that one strong reason in fa vour of the present motion was, that there existed so much variety of opinion on the subject of the poor-law. At the meeting of the I r i s h Members which took place recently there were as many opinions as there were Members present. The Hon. Member for Waterford was in favour of a townland rating; be (Mr. Fagan) was against it, and in favour of a modified labour-rate, as had been proposed by the Hon. Member for Stroud. The Hon. Member for Meath was against any poor-law whatever—(A laugh)—while the Hon. Member for Tip perary contended for a general union rate, to be imposed for the benefit of the aged and infirm, at the same time that a local rate was to be LAI for the able-bodied poor. He did believe that the complaints against the poor-law in Ireland were founded chiefly upon the effect of the abnormal condition in which the country was after three years of famine. In that time 40,000,0004 of the capital of the nation was consumed, and they should rather legislate on a state of things such as the country was likely to present three y ears h ence , than on that w hi c h now existed. In his opinion, the agitation against the por-law was caused mainly by the effects of the fa mine; and it was hardly fair to render taxation per manent merely on account of a temporary visitation of Providence. Major BLACKALL said that the Irish landlords had no wish to shift the responsibility of supporting the poor off their own shoulders. Although it was patent to all the Irish landlords that the Bill was working to their disadvantage, that fact might not be evident to English Members, and he therefore wished for inquiry. Ile hoped they would not make the present state of Ireland the basis of their legislation, but rather take ft as it was likely to be in a tew years hence; neither ought they to legislate upon the grounds which the condition of any district or province presented. Mr. BRIGHT said that although he had no fault to find with the proposition then made to the House by her Majesty's Government, he still could not overlook h . o fact that ther e was an extraordinary unan i mity of complaint upon that subject. But Honourable Members who came into that House from Ireland de ceived themselves if they thought that the corn-law— (A laugh)—he mea n t t h e poor -l aw—he had recently been thinking so much about the corn-laws, that perhaps the House would excuse his having inadvertently used the ono term instead of the other. What he meant to insist upon was this, that lion. Members who come from Ireland greatly deceived themselves if they supposed that defects in the poor-law had any very large share in producing the misery with which that country was afflicted. It was not the poor-law, but it was excessive pauperism which produced those results. They well knew that the English poor-law never had been the sub ject of so much complaint as the Irish, but if in any dis trict of England there happened to exist anything like the extreme pauperism that was to be found in some parts of Ireland, the English poor-law would be com plained of just as loudly as the Irish. He was happy to hear it said that the property of Ireland was not indis posed to support the poverty of Ireland; but ho did most earnestly hope that Hon. Members would feel that shift ing the burden of the poor-law from one part of the country to another, or endeavours t o s hi ft the sta ff o f t h e poor-law functionaries from place to place, would afford no substantial relief to any quarter. There was no rational ground for seeking to throw burdens upon the mort gagees in the manner which the Hon. Member near him suggested. If the lion. Member or any other person borrowed money of an English capitalist, and agreed to pay for that a certain interest, surely he ought to pay it. It he refused to do so there could be no doubt that cir cumstances would soon compel him to borrow a fresh loan on such terms as would give the lender not only a sufficient interest for the use of his money, but also a sufficient sum in addition to meet the amount of poor rates with which he as mortgagee might be charged. It would in the end come to the same thing, and the Hon. Member might be assured of this, that Ireland would never get rid of her difficulties till she got rid of her poverty. He was certain of this, that until la bour was applied to land, until industry was brought to the land so as to develop the resources of the country, things would go on in their present course, and the Irish landlords would be eaten up. Further he would say, that there was not wealth enough in all England to meet the necessities of the Irish people if that race were able to do nothing for themselves.—(clear, hear.) Land in Ireland was so overwhelmed with encumbrances that it could not be made to produce as land ought.—(Hear, hear.) They had much discussion in that House on the Bill of last year for facilitating the sale of encumbered estates; and in that House it had been made somewhat better than it was is the shape in which it originally came to them. But the Government was now unable to show that that Bill had done one particle of good ; on the con trary, be believed it had done much mischief. In his judgment, it was not of the least use to any one except the Irish lawyers. Legislation of that kind, or of any other, would not be of the slightest service to the Irish people until Parliament set itself fairly to the work of grappling with the land question in Ireland. There was no use iu landlord or tenant Bills; the profits of labour and of land must be made to support the poor of Ireland or everything would be eaten up.—(Hear.) Mr. STAFFORD agreed with the Hon- Member for Manchester, that nothing could be done till the laud question was settled. Two years ago he had the painf u l duty of stating the same arguments as that put forward by the Hon. M em b er f or M anc h es ter, and he believed that neither the Encumbered Estates Bill nor the Far mers' Estate Bill would work in many provinces until they dealt with the Irish poor in the manner he then in sisted upon. He would direct Hon. Gentlemen's atten tion to a paragraph which appeared last week in a news paper, showing th a t th ere was n o indisposition on the p trt of men of property in Ireland to pay a fair poor rate. It app eare d t h at i n t h e wors t electoral division of the worst province in Ireland there was an island called Arranmore, where such a vast number of paupers was to be found that it was impossible to know how to deal with them. A Belfast capitalist came forward and .offered to buy the island, whi c h b e l onge d t o a Noble Marquis, but he required, first, not that Government money should be ad vanced, or that he should be relieved from the poor-rate, but that the island should be made an electoral division of its .If. The Poor-law Commissioners acceded to the request ; the island was purchased by the Belfast capi talist, and the work of improvement and employment was progressing there. Here was a case where th e re sources of the land wer e d eve loped, arising out of the i man was just resolution of th e quest i on — w hat return to get for his m one y? lion. Gentlemen in England would be astoni s h e d t o find, on getting up in the morn ing, that the boundaries of their possessions were altered, half being placed in one district and half in another-- but such was the case in Ireland. The lines of division were drawn without reference to the parishes, sometimes without reference to the counties, in the most random manner. It w as f ormer l y sta t e d that these lines were irremovable, but the proposition for smaller areas, scouted in 1e47, was rece i ve d with wore favour HENRY was happy to have it in his power to in- I form the House that the manufacturing interest was at present in a state of considerable prosperity. He was connected with manufacturing establishments in Glas gow, Yorkshire, Belfast, and other places, and was also a considerable exporter, and therefore could speak upon this point with some degree of experience.—(clear.) The evidences of the fact were unmistakeable, and any person who would take the trouble to make inquiry upon the subject must ascertain that a course of prosperity was dawning upon the manufacturing interest. Mr. HUME said it appeared from the confession of the Hen. Member for Essex that the country gentlemen had supported large establishments, and that without their aid the Government could not have maintained them. That fact would not be lost upon the country. The country gentlemen who had taken part in the pre sent discussion had not explained how Ministers could serve the tenant •farmer unless by reducing the expendi ture to the lowest rate at which the Government of the country could possibly be carried on. It was his opinion that matters were assuming a better aspect in the manu• lecturing districts, and for that reason he would assent to the 11 th paragraph of the Address; but he could not admit that the Speech from the Throne was alto gether satisfactory. He concurred with the Honourable Member for Surrey in thinking that the Speech should either be treated as a document unworthy of notice, or should contain a plain and honest exposition of what Ministers intended to do in the course of the session. The debate on the first night of the session turned chiefly on foreign policy, almost to the exclusion of all consideration of domestic affairs. The Noble Lord at the head of foreign affairs made a dexterous reply, from which it appeared that England had assumed the character of police-officer to the whole world, and that whenever a king quarrelled with his subjects we were to step in and put matters to rights.—(Hear, hear.) He begged to remind the House that in the course of last session several hundred petitions were presented praying for economy, together with other petitions, signed by 2,500,000 persons, praying for a reform of the llouse of Commons. There was also a paragraph de ploring the insurrection in Ireland, and desiring a con tinuance of the powers that now existed for the preser vation of peace in that country. In the present condition of Ireland he would not object to that continuance; for, in a time of great difficulty, the Noble Lord who had had those extraordinary powers confided to him had exercised them with great discretion aed judgment. He' hought, however, that they ought not to be continued longer than was absolutely necessary, and that the Government ought to apply itself to the prevention of their neces sity in future. Now, with regard to England; was it not the demand for reform that rendered her unquiet last year? and were they now to shrink from inquiry into the revenue, or to refuse relief from the burdens of tax ation? Yet the Speech said nothing of the kind. It spoke of reductions in the different establishments, which ho supposed meant bringing them within the income; but no notice whatever was taken of the revision:of taxation, although that had been promised at the time the income tax was passed. Petitions had been presented last year for an increased representation of the people. Now, he found that in Canada, where the responsibility of self government existed, Lord Elgin had conducted affairs with great satisfaction to the people, and on the 18th of January, in his Speech to the Assembly, he said he was disposed to believe that an increase in the representation would be attended with considerable advantage, and he recommended that subject to their best consideration. And why did he do so? Because last year there were petitions from all parts of the country callling for a change. He admitted that it was gratifying on the 10th of April last to see all the respec table classes standing forward for the preservation of order; but what led to it ?—The demand for change by the working classes. He believed, however, that much more had been made of that than it deserved, and that advantage was taken of it to increase the military and naval establishments. But he would admit that it the Government refused all concessions as regarded the re presentation of the country they must be prepared by force to keep down the spirit of the people. There was only one other point that he would notice—that in the Speech the state of the colonies was entirely overlooked. There was an allusion to the rebellion in the Punjaub, but none to the rebellion at Ceylon or at the Cape of Good Hope—(Hear, hear)—and when ho reflected that in these two rebellions more lives were lost than in the insurrection in Ireland, he thought that the omission must have been made to cover the misconduct which led to them. To the tenth paragraph of the Address (which was to this effect—" That, whilst rejoicing that the insurrection in Ireland has not been renewed, we unite with her Majesty in deploring the ex istence of a spirit of disaffection; and that our serious consideration will be devoted to the intimation of her elajesty, that her Majesty is compelled with regret to ask for a continuance, fur a limited time, of those powers which in the last session were deemed by Parliament to be necessary for the preservation of the public tran quillity"), therefore he should propose to add the fol losing words:—" And we assure your Majesty that we shall, without delay, direct our serious attention to the consideration of the rebellions which have unhappily occurred in the course of last year in Ceylon and at the Cape of Good Hope, in order. to ascertain the extent us well as the causes of such rebellions; and we shall also endeavour to ascertain the causes of the distress and dis content that exists in British Guiana, the Mauritius, and other places." And to the next paragraph (which was as follows:—"That we most sincerely share with her Majesty the satisfaction which her Majesty feels at the revival of commerce from those shocks which at the sommoucsment of last session were to be deplored; that we learn with gratification that the condition of the manufacturing districts is likewise more en couraging than it has been for a considerable period, and that the state of the revenue is one of pro eressive improvement"), he should propose to add an amendment, alluding to the unequal pressure of taxa tion, the extension of the franchise, and, what he con sidere I most important, the reform of that House. He did not wish to take the sense of the House on these amendments, as he bad nit given notice of his intention to move them, but he felt so strongly what ought to be done, that he was anxious to put them on record. The Address was then :read, and on the 10th para graph, Mr. HUME moved his first amendment. Mr. G. BANKES seconded the motion. He concurred with the Hon. Gentleman that matters such as the amendment referred to ought to have been notified in the Speech from the Throne, and, if they were not, they should be mentioned in the Address. He concurred in the amendment, and if his Hon. Friend did not divide the House upon it, it was because, from not knowing what the Speech would be, he was unable to give notice of his intention to move the amendment. That also was the reason why some friends of his were absent the other night, for his Honourable Friend near him would have had many more votes if they had had the opportunity of giving them more notice. The amendment was then put and negatived without a division. On the second amendment being moved by the Hon. Member for Montrose, Mr. S. CRAWFOL said he approved of the amend ment, but he was at a loss to understand the cse of pro posing this and the former if the sense of the House were not taken upon them. They were too good to be allowed to drop; and he therefore appealed to his Hon. Friend not to permit this ono to be swamped without taking the sense of the House upon it. Mr. lIUME said he had pledged himself not to divide the House upon this amendment, but any Hon. Member could insist on a division if he wished it. The amendment was then put, and Mr. S. CRAWFORD calling for a division, the gallery was cleared, but after a short interval the door was re-opened, and we found that the, amendment had been negatived without a di vision. The other paragraphs of the Address were agreed to without amendment, and the Address was ordered to be presented to her Majesty by such Members as are of her Majesty's Most Hon. Privy Council. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE IRISH POOR- LAW. Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that be rose, pursuant to notice, to propose the appointment of a Select Com mittee, with a view to an inquiry into the operation of the Irish poor-law. His Hon. and Gallant Friend the Member for Portarlington (Colonel Dunne) had, in the course of the preceding session, proposed a motion simi lar to that which he (Sir W. Somerville) now had the honour of moving. That motion, however, did not meet with the approbation of the House, and the Government were very much blamed by m an y Irish Members for op posing it. He (Sir W. Somerville) thought then, and was of the same opinion now, that an inquiry into a law which had not at that time been fairly tried, and which inquiry must have been founded upon in sufficient information, could not have led to any satisfactory result, and would probably have obliged the Government to ask for the appointment of a fresh Committee during the present session, to obtain fresh information on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) But the case was different now. A year had elapsed, and although in the working and in the operation of a law of such vast importance a year was not a long period, yet so eventful had been the past year that the ordinary experience of many years might be said to be crowded into it. He was prepared now to redeem the pledge given by the Government on more than one occasion during List session, to propose a Committee to inquire into this most important and delicate subject. He had heard with much surprise from Irish Members, that they were disappointed in the course which the Govern• ment intended to pursue on this question. It was said that the Government should at once have proposed their measures, and have stated what alterations they in tended to make in the Irish poor-law.—(Cheers from Irish Members.) If the Government had pursued that course they would have been justly chargeable, and would have most certainly incurred the most eloquent and indignant denunciations from the Irish Members, for hav ing forfeited the pledges which, as ho had stated, they had on more than one occasion given during the course of last session. But independently of this consideration, he was of opinion that au inquiry into the operation of the poor-law in Ireland would now be exceedingly pro per and desirable. There was not a single individual either in Ireland or in the United Empire who was not interested in the well-working of this law.—( Hear, beer.) And such being the case, and the social con dition of many portions of the province of Ireland being so much disturbed, was it not fair that an opportunity should be afforded to gentlemen connected with those distriets to come forward and produce any evidence which would throw a light on the particular views which they held with respect to the New Poor-law? If upon inquiry it should prove that those views were not well founded, their rejection would be more readily acqui esced in after the inquiry by a Select Committee than if the House at once proceeded to legislation.— (Hear, hear.) It was possible that the Government had superior means of information on this subject, but that was no reason why gentlemen connected with Ire land should not be: afforded an opportunity of stating their views, and of being certain that those views should undergo the most patient consideration.—(Rear, hear.) FEBRUARY 6, 1849. in 1848, and now a boundary commission was appointed. He believed it was not premature to state that the tendency of that commission's report would be to make a very considerable reduction in the area of taxation for poor-law purposes. The Right lion. Gen tleman (Sir W. Somerville) said that the Government were upbraided because, having promised a Committee, they had kept th e i r word. Now all that he (Mr. Staf ford) said when the Noble Lord mentioned his intention of granting a Committee on the Irish Poor-law was, that he suspended his opinion until he should know what the Ministerial arrangements might be ; and what he com plained of was, not only that the Government had hitherto refused to lay any Bill before the House for the consideration of that Committee, but that they had also refused to specify what portions of the Irish Poor-law they were determined to take their stand on, thereby shrinking from their responsibility as a Government, and giving rise, probably, to unfounded hopes and vague misapprehensions in ,the public mind. Their conduct tended to confirm the report generally spread, that they had had recourse to this Committee because they were, with respect to the Irish Poor-law, a divided Govern. ment, and delayed legislation, because they were incom petent to come to a decision.—(Hear.) Col. DUNNE thought that the difference of opinion existing on the subject of the Irish poor-law justified the Government in nominating a Committee. Last year he had moved for a Committee on the subject, and the step now taken by the Government proved that he was right. The great mistake was to suppose that a poor law sufficient for an ordinary state could operate well under circumstances of extraordinary and extreme des titution from want of employment, and in some of the districts of Ireland the whole production of the land would be found insufficient for the support of the popu lation. The Hon. Member, after referring to the case of the Marquis of Sligo, who, he stated, paid 2,5001. for poor-rate, besides 6,0001. for family charges, and to othcr instances, observed that it was useless for any Irish proprietor to attempt to exert himself under the present law, for it paralyzed all endeavours he might make, the relief to the person receiving it being inade quate, while to the person paying it, it was ruin. ---(Hear, hear.) He was glad that a Committee was now proposed, for it would show the English Members that Ireland had not the same poor-law as England; it was different in the rating and in the operation, and, above all, it was bad in the administration, and required extensive altera tion. Irish gentlemen had no wish to repudiate the sup port of their starving countrymen; but the present poor law system required alteration. The support of the poor inside the workhouse should be separated from the sup port outside. Mr. SADLIER could make allowance for the meagre character of the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir W. Somerville), as he had so many duties to per form; but some member of the Cabinet would probably rise to answer the inquiries which had-been made in the course of the debate, and there were one or two other points to which it might be well to call attention; for instance, the mode in which the rates were recovered. When a rate had been collected as far as the collectors stated they were able to procure payment, a second rate was made to supply the deficiency in tho collection of the first, and was probably levied upon the same parties as before, the original defaulters going scot-free on both occasions ; this was practically a direct encouragement to a landlord to have upon his estate tenants who could pay a rack-rent, but who would be unable to pay poor-rates. Again, it would be impossiile to entertain the subject of a law of settlement in Ireland, unless it was understood what the Government (for it was not proper to leave it to others) intended to do with respect to the establishment of a good system of registration of births, deaths, and mar riages. As to charging mortgagees with poor-rate, that would prevent the investment of capital in Ireland—if indeed this had not been already done. Let the Noble Lord (J. Russell) address himself with practical, well digested measures to the question—what was to be done with the surplus agricultural population of Ireland? If the Government did not make a total revision of the sys tem under which Ireland had been cast as regarded unions and electoral divisions, they might depend upon it that no amendments which they could introduce would have the effect of relieving the destitution and giving full encouragement to the industry of Ireland. He hoped that the unions and electoral divisions of that country would be so constructed as to approximate to the size of the English poor-law unions; and he must express his regret that the Government had not stated explicitly , what measures of a remedial character they would in troduce for Ireland, while at the same time he thought that they should adopt some measure for the more effec tual recovery of poor-law arrears in that country. Sir G. GREY must admit that the Hon. Gentleman had called the attention of the House to a subject of great importance ; bat with respect to those details of the operation of the poor-law into which he had entered, and which he thought were fit subjects for reference in a Committee, it would be more convenient for the dis patch of public business to abstain from following him through the consideration of those details, especially as he (Sir G. Grey) agreed with him in thinking that they would be much better submitted to the investigation of a Committee. There were one or two points, however, in the speech of the Hon. Gentleman to which he would shortly advert. The first paint was with regard to the collection of the arrears of rates; and he had to state on this subject that a collector had been sent out to see to the collection of rates, and his return was that a considerable portion of those rates had been uncol lected, not from any inability to pay them, but from un willingness, and from an evasion of the law, where the law had not been enfdrced against these parties. Mr. SADLIER—From destitution. Sir GEORGE GREY—He was afraid that the remark he had made was applicable to many who were able to pay ; and he only hoped, if the Hon. Gentleman knew of cases of that kind, that he would place those cases in the hands of the Poor law Commissioners. He was afraid, however, it would be found that there was, in many instances, an indispo sition to pay the rates. With regard to the commission, the Hon. Gentleman opposite had made many remarks, and he had brought forward many instances to show that the original distribution of the unions was not on a uniform principle. In that he agreed with him—(Hear, bear)—and it was in consequence of that opinion that he had agreed to the appointment of the Boundary Commission. When the motion of the Hon. Member for Portarlington was last session disposed of he (Sir G. Grey) stated that a commission was to be appointed; and no also stated the same thing to him and a deputa tion of Irish gentlemen previous to that motion being brought on.—(Hear.) That commission had most diligently applied itself to all those details to which the Hon. Gentleman opposite had adverted, and they had transmitted a report to the Government, though the appendices and maps would not be delivered for a short titne to come. He would not enter upon a detail of all the matters contained in that report, but would only state from recollection the tendency of the re commendations which it contained. The report had been referred to the Poor law Commissioners of Ireland in order that they might fully consider the propriety of carrying out its recommendations with as little delay as possible. And when he said "carrying out" its recom mendations, he was nut to be understood as meaning that they were to be carried out in all particulars, or that they could be so ; but, with respect to the union workhouses, he believed that they could follow the views embraced in the report, and that they were anxious to correct, as far as possible, the errors which had been made in the general division of Ireland.— (Hear.) Ho believed the commissioners did not recom mend any alteration in the unions of Ulster ; but in other parts of Ireland they proposed that the principle of those unions should be adopted ; and therefore the tendency of the report was to alter the division of the unions in the other parts of Ireland.—(Hear.) As to electoral divisions, he could not hold out the hope,,that the commissioners were favourable to the views held by some Hon. Gentlemen ; but the tendency certainly was to diminish the area of taxation on the principle more than once stated to the House by himself and others though not in a way that must necessarily lead to great evils, by reducing the area of taxation to the extent ad vocated by some Hon. Members connected with Ireland. —(Hear.) He would not further enter upon the subject now ; but he hoped that the report of the commissioners would tend much to break the labours of the Committee about to be appointed. As to the questions put by the Hon. Member for Northamptonshire (Mr. Stafford), if he were to answer all those questions and refer to all the points noticed by him, he might as well produce at once the Bill which it was hoped they would be able to bring forward. He would not now occupy the time of the House by entering into detail, but he might state that the Government would not go into this inquiry with any intention of impairing the great principles upon which the Poor-law of Ireland was founded, or of altering the principles upon which relief was given. He understood an Hon. Gentleman opposite to ask whether the Government meant to confine relief to the workhouses, and to do away with the system of outdoor relief. He (Sir G. Grey) begged to inform the Hon. Gentleman that the Government enter tained no such intention.—(Hear, hear.) Their object was to facilitate the operation of the law, while, at the same time, they kept in view the great object the law was framed to accomplish, and which hecould not admit it had failed to effect—namely to avert starvation from the Irish people. He believed that, but for the amended poor-law, there would, during the recent period of dis tress, have been a mach greater degree of suffering amongst the people of Ireland. Mr. H. HERBERT observed, that there was great difference of opinion on this subject, and he feared that the proposed Committee would continue their sittings during the whole session without arriving at any practi cal result. A number of the Irish Members, of whom he was one, had an interview with the Home Secretary last year, and pressed upon him a diminution of the area of taxation; but this suggestion, although made by men practically acquainted with the state of Ireland, and whose opinions should have been entitled to consider ation, was not adopted. Ho believed that by energy, perseverance, and determination on the part of the landed proprietors, a poor-law might work well in Ireland; and that, although under any circumstances there must be a severe struggle, the difficulties to be encountc red were not so insuperable as had been represented.—(Hear. ) Sir L. O'BRIEN considered that the Government ought to have proceeded with legislation on this subject at once, and expressed a hope that such measures as might be deemed expedient would be submitted to Par liament 'without any unnecessary delay. Mr. MONSELL said that the great difficulty in the part of Ireland with which he was connected arose from the flight of those tenant-farmers who possessed capital, and the cosequent danger that a large portion of the !a nd in that district might be thrown out of cultivation. He (lid not object to the appointment of this effecting many he thought they might be the means of let trusted ct that ing important alterations in the poor-law. I hthaeve the Gove report rnmen of the Commissionalluded Government, if theythoughtit nece toby the H wotulde t H i o o n m o e f S theecr e H t a o r Sy s b e o a u n g d h t w u o n u d l e d r t a h i p e p immediateany c a o d n d s i i t di additiona l s t aff that might be required to carry out the arrange. ment.s contemplated by the Commission. It was most desirable that the doubt which now existed on this subject should be removed as pedily as possible; and he warned the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was on Wed nesday to propose a vote for the relief of distress in Connaught, that if the Government did not take care they would have to propos a similar grant next year for the people of Munster. There was a vast emigration going on from the South of Ireland, consisting not of the lower classos, but of capitalists—thus leaving the poor unassisted, and whose support must devolve upon the Government of the country, unless means were devised to give them reproductive employment. Mr. GRATTAN did not think the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet would give satisfaction to Ireland. The avowal that it was not the intention of the Government to abandon the idea of affording support to the able. bodied at once destroyed all hope that any scheme that the Committee might devise would be productive of be nefit. It had been attempted by the Red Republicans in Paris, and had totally failed. He would not ask whether the Right Hon. Baronet was a Red Republican; but he, at least, was trying the same system in Ireland, where it would not only fail, but would place the country in such a situation ns to render it impossible for any proprietor to reside in at all. He begged to correct an error into which an lion. Member had fallen in stating that he (Mr. Grattan) was not an advocate fur any poor-law. On the contrary, som e y ears ago , h e , i n con j unction with his brother and Sir R. M usgrave , b roug h t in a Bill on that very subject. Sir G. GREY explained. He had said that although he thought it desirable to institute an inquiry into the present working of the poor-law in Ireland, yet it was not the intention of the Government to retrace their stens and fall back to the minimum amount of relief under the poor-law of 1846. Mr. S. CRAWFORD maintained that the great cause of all the evils in Ireland was want of employ ment, end that that employment would be instantly given if the occupiers of laud were put in a position to be assured that for the labour they employed they would receive a just remuneration. Mr. ST. GEORGE said, at present persons possessing holdings at 41., and under, were exempt from paying poor-rates. He objected to this, and believed that it woul I be more advantageous to Ireland, if all persons holding lands were required to pay their quota. SCROPE hoped the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary for Ireland would take care that the Com mittee should be supplied with those statistical facts relative to the condition of the population, the tenancy and other important particulars in reference to the cir cumstances of Ireland, for which:he had moved returns, so as to enable them to resolve the question that would be brought before them. Sir W. SOMERVILLE did not think it possible that Government could furnish all the details for which the Hon. Member had moved a return, but he could assure that Hon. Member that every return he could command calculated to throw light upon the subject submitted to the Committee he should feel great pleasure in producing. The motion was then agreed to. TROOPS EMPLOYED IN IRELAND. Mr. GRATTAN the❑ moved for returns of the num ber of troops of the line or other forces employed in the insurrection in Ireland, as mentioned in her Majesty's Speech from the Throne; together with list anti names of the killed and wounded, and the number and descrip- tion of forces engaged on both sides; also, the amount of expenses and costs in sending troops from Great Britain to Ireland, and in moving the several regiments and other armed forces in various parts of Ireland, on the occasion of the said alleged insurrection. Mr. F. MAULE hardly knew what it was his Hon. Friend was desirous of obtaining. If he wished to know the number of troops employed in Ireland during the months of July, August, and September, when a dis turbance was apprehended, he (Mr. F. Maule) had no objection to furnish him with a return. But it was per fectly well known to all the world that, from the precau tions taken by the Government in Ireland, from the judgment displayed by the officers in command, and from the excellent conduct of the troops, no collision took place between the military and the people; and, therefore, no returns could be made, either of the killed and wounded, or the number and description of the forces employed on both sides. With reference to the expense of removing the troops from this country on that occa sion, the costs were defrayed out of the current votes of the House without any extraordinary vote for that pur pose, and as the making of the return would be attended with a vast degree of trouble, and would after all afford no valuable information to the House, he must ask to be excused from putting the country to the expense of fur nishing it. Mr. GRATTAN consented that the motion should be withdrawn, and it was withdrawn accordingly. On the motion of Mr. GRATTAN, the following re turns was ordered:—Return of the number andnames of persons arrested under the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act i❑ Ireland, and for what alleged acts or offences, the length of imprisonment, and it let out on bail, or otherwise. THE RAJA OF SATTARA. Mr. HUME moved for copies of any dispatch or cor respondence, secret or otherwise, from the Court of Di rectors of the East India Company to the Governor- General of India in Council, sanctioned by the Commis sioners for the Affairs of India, and communicating the decision of the Court on the question of the disposal of the Sattara State, in consequence of the death of the late Raja; together with all correspondence, secret or other wise, between the Governments of India, from the 14th day of October, 1847, and not already laid before Par liament ; as also, copies of all minutes recorded by Members of Council in India, and dissents, protests, or minutes recorded by any member or members of the Court of Directors on that subject.—Ordered. The House then adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock. PARLIAMEN TAR Y 1)1 VISIONS. :From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons.) DIONDAY, FEB. 5. PUBLIC BUSINESS. Motion made, and Question proposed, " That after Tues day, the Ist day of May next, Orders of the Day shall have precedence of Notices of Motions on Thursday, the right being reserved to her Majesty's ➢Ministers of placing Govern ment Orders at the head of the List, as on Mondays and Fridays." Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word " That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words," the Speeches of Members be limited in duration to one hour; but that the introducers of Original Motions, and Ministers of the Crown speaking in reply, be :exempted from this rule," instead thereof .—Question, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question." put, and negatived :—Words added : Main Question, as amended, put. Tne House divided : MINORITY-AYES, 62. Adair, R. Shafto Frewen, C. H. Rawdon, Colonel Alcock, Thomas Guest, Sir John St. George, Chris. Bernal, Ralph Haggitt, F. It. Scrope, G. P. Bouverie,:E. P. Harris, Richard Sidney, Alderman Bright, John Hastie, Alexander Smith, J. Benjamin Brotherton, Joseph Hastie, Archibald Stanley, E. Brown, W. i Ileathcoat, John Stanstield, W. R. C. Busfeild,William Henry, Alexander Stuart, Lord D. _ _. _ . Cayley, Edward S. Heyworth, Lawrence Sullivan, Michael Childers, J. W. Hope, A. Tennent, R. J. Clay, James Humphery, Ald. Thompson, Colonel Cobden, Richard Kershaw, James Thornely, T. Colebrooke, Sir T. Lacy, 11. C. .- Trelawny, J. S. Copeland, Ald. Littleton, E. R. Tynte, Colonel Crawford, W. S. Mackinnon, W. - A. Willoughby, Sir H. Duke, Sir James 31eaglier, Thomas Wilson, Matthew Duncan, George Mitchell, A. T. Wood, W. P. Ellis, Joha Moffatt, George Wyld, James Ewart, William Molesworth, Sir W. Fagan, William Mowatt, Francis TELLEIS. Foley, John H. 3lunta, G. F. Hume, J. Fordyce, A. D. O'Connor, Feargus Gibson, T. M. MAJORITY-NOES, 96. Anstey, T. C. llerbert, Henry A. Pinney, W. Armstrong, Sir A. Berries, J. C. Plowden, W. H. Armstrong, R. B. Hobhouse, Sir J. Pugh, David Bernie, 11. J. , Hobhouse, T. 13. Raphael, Alexander Bankes, George Ilogg, Sir J. IT. Rich, Henry Barrington, Lord Hood, Sir A. Russell, Lord J. Bellew, R. M. Hornby John Sadleir, John Bennet, Philip Ilorsman, E. Sanders, George Macke'', S. W. Howard, Lord E. Sanders, Joseph Blair, Stephen Inglis, Sir R. Sheil, R. L. Buller, Sir J. Y. Jolliffe, Sir W. G. Sibthorp, Colonel Bunbury, E. IL Labouchere, Henry Somerville, Sir W. Chartaris, Francis Legh, G. C. Spooner, R. Clerk Sir G. Lincoln, Earl of Stafford, A. Cobbold, J. C. Lockhart, A. E. Strickland, Sir G. Cowper, W. F. M`Gregor, John Sutton, 11. M. Craig, W. G. Maitland, Thomas Tancred, 11. W. Drummond, Henry Mandeville, Viscount Tenison, E. K. Dunne, Francis I', Masterman, John Thompson, Alderman Ebrington, Lord Matheson, Alex. Tyrrell, Sir J. Elliot, John E. Maule, Fox 1 Urquhart, David Ferguson, Sir R. Miles, William Vane, Lord IL Moyer, John Morgan, 0. Vyse, R. 11. it. 11. French, F. Morison, Sir W. Walsh, Sir J. Goulburn, Henry Newdegate, C. N. Watkins, Colonel Grace, 0. D. J. Norreye, Lord Wilson, James Graham, Sir James O'firien,Sir Lucius Wodehouse, E. Granby, Marquis of Ossulton, Lord, Wood, Sir Charles Granger, T. C. Pakington, Sir J. Wrightson, W. IL Grey, Sir George Palmerston, Via. Young, Sir John Grey, Ralph W. Parker, John TELLEI.II. Hawes, B. Fatten, J. W. Tufliell, H. Heald, James Peel, Sir Robert Bill, Lord Mum' PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS. From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons., MONDAY, FEB. 5. The following petitions for Railways were presented, and the Bills ordered to be brought in : Manchester Sheffield, and Lincolnshire (Con so lid a ti on an d Amendment Of Acts). Reading, Guildford, and Reigate (Branch to London and South-Western Railway). East Anglian (Ely and Huntingdon Railway, Extension of Time). York and North Midland (Deviation and Abandonment of Part of the authorised Lines of Railway between Market Weighton and Beverley, and Copmanthorpe and Tadcaster). Great Indian Peninsula Railway Company.: East Indian Railway Company (for making one or mere Railways in the East Indies). t South-Eastern (Removal of Restriction against asopening Hast ings Tunbridge Well s an d H as ti ngs , an d Ashford and 0 _ ir.gs Lines, Grand of com p u l sor y Powers for Purchase Lands and Steam-boats). Cockermouth and Workington (Branch to It t d e g b e a f v oo en t, Amendment of Act, and Power to lease to w Junction Railway Company). and Edinburgh and Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway , Glasgow Union Canal (Amalgamation, or Sale or Lease of the Union Canal to the Railway Company).._ in _goes- Stockton and Darlington (Alteration of Line cliffe and Stockton-on-Tees). Shrewsbury and Birmingham Acts Amendment, Branches, and Deviations. Edinburgh and Northern (A —Dunfermline Branch Devi ationn Dunfermline Parish , and s o as to p ass un der Town hill an i d Halbeath Tramways; Branches in connexion with those Tramways; Repeal of Agreement with Lessees of Halbeath Colliery; Increase of Capital and Amendment of Acts.) Edinburgh and Northern (B—Deviation of Dunfermline Branch in Dunfermline Pariah, and Alterations, CO that the sa me may pass over the Halbeath Tramway; Branches in connexion with Halbeath and Townhill Tramways, Increase of Capital and Amendment of Acts). Edinburgh and Northern (C—Dunfermline Branch ' Al terations in Dunfermline Pari s h ; L evel Crossing of Halbeath Tramway; Repeal of Agreement with Lessees of Ilalbeath Colliery; Townhill and Ilalbeath Branches; Increase of Capital and Amendment of Acts). Edinburgh and Northern (Formation of Slip Quay and ether her Works at Granto rs; E xt f 'Fa ‘T , ' Q rqtAtiql At burgh, Regulation of Perth Stations, and Amendment of Acts). The undernamed Railway Bills were read a first, and ordered to be read a second time : Lancashire and Yorkshire (Extension of Ashton Branch, of Clifton Branch, &c.) ANewcastle and Carlisle (Alterations of and Branch from lston Branch). - 7 Windsor (Extension of the Windsor, Staines and South- Western—Richmond to Windsor —with Power to the London and South-Western Railway Company to subscribe). Lancaster and Carlisle (from the Lancaster and Carlisle at Lancaster to the Preston and Wyre, &c.) North-Western (Extension of Lancashire Branch, Aban donment of William Lands Branch, New Road to Settle Station, Extension of Time for Purchase of Lands and Con struction of Works). Lancaster and Preston Junction (Junction with the East Lancashire Railway in Preston, and Amendment of Acts). Lancaster and Preston Junction Acts Amendment (Power to alter Tolls and for appointment of Officers). Birkenhead, Lancashire, and Cheshire Junction (Aban donment of part of Line, Extension to London and North- Western, &c.) CT CO NTROVERTED ELEIONS. The following is the list of Members who have claimed to be excused f rom serv i ng on Election Committees, as being upwards of sixty years of age : Sir Thomas Dyke Acland, Hon. Hugh Arbuthnott, Robert Baynes Armstrong, Esq., Edward George Barnard, Esq., John Benbow, Esq., John Benett, Esq., Richard Blakemore, Esq., Admiral Bowles, Joseph Brotherton, Esq., William Brown, Esq., Lewis William Buck, Esq., Sir Charles Merril( Burrell, William Busfield, Esq., Henry Combe Compton, Esq., William Sharman Crawford, Esq., Right Hon. Charles Tennyson D'Lvncourt, Quiutin Dick, Esq., Henry Drum. mond, Esq , Henry Home Drummond Eeq., Right Hon. Edward Ellice, William Johnson Fox, Esq., Augustus Eliott Fuller, Esq., Admiral Gordon, Wiliam Ormsby Gore, Esq., Right Hon. Henry Goulburn, Richard Harris, Esq., John Heathcoat, Esq., Right Hon. Charles J. Herries, ThornaelLaw Hodge, Esq., Sir John Hope, Thomas Houldsworth, Esq., Joseph Hume, Esq., Sir Robert Harry Inglis, Sir Edward Kerrison, Sir Charles Kuightley, Sir Charles Lemon, Right Hon. Sir Thomas Franklin Lewis, James Loch, Esq., major Macnamara, Lord Charles Somerset Manners, John Master. man, Esq., Thomas Philip Maunsell, Esq., William Ord, Esq,, James Pattison, Esq., Right Hon. Sir Robert Peel, Edward William Wynne Pendarves, Esq., Colonel Powell, Nicholas Maher Power, Esq., Sir Richard Price, Richard Prime, Esq., Richard Richards, Esq., George Richard Robinson, Esq., Sir George Henry Smyth, Richard Spooner, Eeq , Sir George Thomas Staunton, Sir George Strickland,; William Henry Tancred, Esq, Thomas:Thornely, Esq., John Ennis Vivian, Esq., Harry Spencer Waddington, Esq., Richard Walker, Esq., Edmond Wodehouse, Esq., and the Right Hon. Charles Watkin Williams Wynn. LAW INTELLIGENCE. COURT OF QUEEN'S BENCH, Feb. 5. (Sittings at Nisi Prins, at Westminster, before Lord Chief Justice DENMAN and Common Juries.) LAWRENCE V. PFIEL. This was an action to recover damages for assault and false imprisonment, committed under the following cir cumstances:— Plaintiff, - a smith, carrying on business in Hart street, Covent-garden, was in the habit of dealing with the defendant, of the firm of Messrs. Pfiel, ironmongers, in Holborn. Plaintiff, accompanied by his boy, went on the occasion in question to defendant's premises, for the purpose of purchasing some bar iron, and was then charged, on the testimony of a person named William Rennie, with stealing a rod of iron, with which it was alleged he left the premises. Rennie gave information to a fellow-workman, who pursued the plaintiff, and ul timately caused him and his boy to be taken into CUE. tody, and detained for the night on the charge at the station-house. They were placed the next morning be fore the presiding magistrate at Bow-street, and were by him discharged, neither the defendant nor his wit nesses appearing to support the charge. Plaintiff brought his action for the injuries of which he thus complained. Defendant pleaded not guilty, and a justification; the latter plea on the ground that plaintiff had been detected on a previous occasion by the witness Rennie, in the act of stealing a new hammer, the property:of the defendant, which he concealed under his apron. It appeared that when plaintiff and his boy were taken into custody they had not the rod of iron, which they were charged with stealing, in their possession. Witnesses were examined on the one side and the other. Plaintiff and his boy (Sims) called witnesses, and denied the charges made against them. The witness Rennie, on behalf of the defendant, gave testimony in support of the charges. Lord DENMAN summed up, and put the case to the jury, who, unable to agree i n th e b ox , ret i re d , an d , a f ter a short absence, returned a verdict for the plaintiff— Damages 50/. The boy Sims did tilt bring any action. Mr. Montague Chamber:4 Q.C., appeared for the plaintiff; Mr. Sergeant Shee for the defendant. COURT OF EXCHEQUER, Feb. 5. (Sittings in Banco.) HARDCASTLE V. HANSON. This case was an action by a commercial traveller against a merchant in London, to recover the amount of his commission. The cause was tried at last Ipsw:eh assizes, when the question turned on the construction of the agreement between the parties —as to orders, when paid for, plaintiff was to have a commission of cne per cent. on heavy goods, and 21 per cent. on general goods. Plaintiff, by his particular of demand, also claimed t'lo like per-centagea on moneys due previously to his engagement, but which were collected by him, and defendant bad paid more than sufficient to cover the whole of these per-centages, but plaintiff also claimed 301. and upwards as commission at 21 per cent. on moneys due by cus tomers previously to plaintiff's management, and which had been remitted to defendant by the customers them selves. This claim the defendant resisted, on the grounds that it was not within the terms of the agreement, and that it would have been especially hard upon him, he having already paid commission to the traveller who had obtained the orders. This sum of 30/. was the real contest. At the trial the parties agreed that the Judge ( Alr. Justice Mauls) should decide on the con struction of the agreement, each party . being at liberty to move the Court and review his decision. The Judge decided in defendant's favour, that the 301. claim could not be supported, but that as to moneys previously duo, but collected by plaintiff, he was entitled to a commission of 21 per cent. on the whole, whether the moneys were owing for heavy goods or general goods. On this the defendant claimed to be entitled to a verdict, as the plai❑tiff in his own particular of demand had claimed on some of these moneys 1 per cent. only; and the plaintiff asked leave to amend his particulars. Both these views the Judge refused to entertain, and a verdict was entered for plaintiff, subject to a reference as to amounts; the amount of the verdict would have been under 30s. Mr. O'Malley having obtained a rule nisi to enters verdict for defendant, or a nonsuit, Mr. Sergeant Byles(with whom was Mr. Palmer) now showed :cause, insisti❑g that Mr. Justice Maule's ruling was correct, and that the plaintiff ought not to be prejudiced by his particular of demand, as defendant could not I.e misled by it; but The COURT held that the plaintiff must be bound by his particular, adding that it would have been unjust to have allowed plaintiff to amend at the trial without also allowing defendant to pay money into court correspondingly, Mr. Baron Parke, at the same time, expressing his decided opinion that, on the true con struction of the agreement, irrespective of plaintiff's par ticular, defendant was entitled to, have his rule made absolute. _ _ Rule fora nonsuit made absolute. R will be seen that in adopting Mr. Justice Mantes ruling, plaintiff abandoned all claim to the 301.—the real contest; nor was it even mentioned by plaintiff', counsel to the Court. COURT CIRCULAR. WINDSOR, MONDAY. The Queen and Prince Albert took their accustomed early morning walk. The Royal Family walked and rode in the pleasure• grounds of the Castle. Mr. Mayer, of Liverpool, had the honour of submitting to her Majesty and his Royal Highness Princess Albert the silver cradle made for the Mayor of Liverpool, and presented to him by his fellow-townsmen, to commemo rate the birth of a child during his mayoralty. Prince Albert went out shooting this morning, at• tended by Colonel Wylde. Her Majesty attended by the Viscountess Jocelyn. Lady in waiting, took a drive this forenoon into the Groat Park. Lord Alfred Paget, Equerry in waiting, anion& ing on horseback. Mr. and the Hon. Mrs. G. E. Anson had the honour of dining with her Majesty this evening. • th e The Queen's privat e b an d was i n a ttendance Castle after dinner. Sir Richard A. O'Donel had an interview with Lord John Russell yesterday, at hie official residence in Downing-street. Mr. Alcoek , M.P , had an inter view with the Right Hon. H. Labouchere.yesterday, at the office of the Board of Trade. Mr. Pressly had an interview yesterday with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, at hie official residence in Downing-street. Dispatches were received yesterday at the Colo n i a l. office, from the Governors of the North American Co lonies, and also from the Governors of the M aur i t i us and Gibraltar. PANAMA.—The P e a w ci G fic ran S a t d e a a , m f r Navigation,om Callao ri ared em v m. hPearneY:sbsteamshipi New addition t o h er usual passengers and cargo, the mails in continuation with the company's steamer New Granada, which left Valparaiso Nov. 30, from the undermentioned ports, in Chile, Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, and New G rana d a, of the respective dates as undernoted :— Chile—Valparaiso, Nov. 30; Coquimbo, Dec. 1; Iluasco, 2d; Cossiasso, 2d. Bolivia—Colys, Dec. 4. Peru—lquique, Dec. 5; Arica, 6th; Islay, 7th; Pisco, 9th; Callao, 13th.—John Williams, Commander. Note of men-of-war and packets at the different porta from Valparaiso to Panama :—At Valparaiso—Her British Majesty's ships Asia, Constance, and Gorgon; French, Pouiovant, Brillante, Genie. At Callao—Her British Majesty's ship Naiad; French, Sarcelle, Genie. Panama—Her British Majesty's schooner Cockatrice. THE GERMAN SOCIETY' OF BENEVOLENCE AND CONCORD.—The Germans in London, like the Jews, are a self-supporting community. As far as their meant allow, they aid in maintaining their own poor; and, what is still better, in providing them with employment, which is the best means of averting poverty. Last night the annual dinner of the society by which much of this is effected was held at the Freemasons' Hall. It was very well attended, the proceedings being enlivened by some excellent singing. It appears that the society relieved 302 persons in the year 1848; and lookingafter_ o over the balance-sheet of the society, it is as well to a ass _ s _y . that, as the applications for relief are incre Tne asing y e enin l g t s ance from the benevolent is desirable. e euterttkiumots couchicied with I ball. \~ ~