The Sun. — London, England, 1842-03-02 00:00:00

A --r ll ~~ ;+ 0 , , r f• Which had been acted on in many large towns. At this mo ment in Hertford a new gaol had been built. At Bath a new one was just completed. In Hertford, Peterborough, Scar- I T ° „ r s T i ts g h k s Wilts, Bucks, Chichester, Reading, Penzance, a,nTh es s u ttrY, and Plymouth, new gaols were about to be built. - and ." o 'e th i ee'rrdplaeCitesr,fisle, Leicester, Wakefield, Stafford, I3ucks, ta i the gaols were being enlarged. This showed t the matter was not stationary, and that there was a desire nninnstthetnpart the of the G overnment to do that which would tend ireprovement in prisons. The Hon. Gentleman °PPosite dwelt With some emphasis on the variation in the lPneishment of hard labour and diet. With regard to the e ar e li c i f r in bred labour, he (Sir J. Graham) admitted that the different eom struction of the treadmills in the country, and c onsider e ar e i 4 l sbe time of rrmainine on them, did cauos a matter into viriatten and punishment ; but this was the very gradually a wli oi rir the Government had instituted inquiries, and sa witheduced Progressively the variations would be. r s 83 at ' least to be unworthy of notice from inquiry,e Peet t o diet also, the Government had not abstained A fember , o f . The very ' cases quoted by the Honourable b ", 11 mad e h.. er e,lY showed how vigorously investigations had soled t h e ", toe Government. The lion. Gentleman men eiewing e.11% , s " a mother with a child at the breast not re ins seerBerallesent support, but he stated, sari the same time, that vesti gates .TY of State for the Home Deperit actuall in- ) did not -4 in Intl.,_ einatter-( Hear, hear)-and he (Sir J. Graham tiit o.toizthat a stronger case could have been adduced to Government was not allowing this matter to re elit ist , 51 `esr- He did think it a strong proof that a case so auts orit tould be brought under the inspection of a supremo fete. i' and that the supreme authority should inter:- s hin e , Gfiro.the course of the last two months, he (Sir ":'Petters -suarn ) had received Reports from the Prison i . " too t eum tlainine that the diet iii some prisons .o th e r....w. These . cases he had always forwarded bel'itie.g tofuat accompanied by his opinion that it fesent .destrable ake inquiries into the diet at the (fif ths asPlisceisr and in ever - case he was happy to say, that to hi s 4,lting Magistrate, had shown ' every disposition to attend re his ggestions. There was another very important matter "led o t i ° solitary confinement. He was sure that having Posit s h : Matter, as he could see the Hon. Gentleman op ;,i.rt, 1114. 4 '., 8 0 done, he might, perhaps, be allowed to read l a ''ght sf s 'ned by the Commissioners on that point. Te e(Mtais,P- Gentleman proceeded to read the circular, which . r netit o f, rules and regulations for the carrying the punish- Priso n stanary Confinement into effect. It stated that every 1 11 ° 11 1d b e contain a certain number of cells; that they "e %h tight and well bedded ; that the prisoners should Itith Zet to the discretion of the surgeon, and Le provided the 1;178, 'while those who could not read should be visited by he °t;:itwaster, or such person as might be capable . of th„8I th s 0 them instruction - that they should take exercise e V. Pen air and be ' lied with work at the discretion of h e l 4'istra - t 7. 1.1' Now, continued the Right Hon. fleab s e f the r eimeed at e the policy had led to the diminu 91t the the inflfction of capital punishments in this country. ts.tos amelioration of criminal punishment might be carried . k tsa,_ E s , e l t an extent. They might go on relaxing their s n tltsh o ;"'Pline till they arrived at a point at which crime of lr ellaa, - ,, t be receiving a premium. He was quite opposed ,LlSlsish,se re sembling cruelty, but their prisons must be places ,stslati os •gent, and they must not carry the mitigation of their Pd'ads ens 3 beyond that point. The Hon. Gentleman had t htt -ni r P e itson between the prison discipline of England s e s rd, %see' Ameriea. Now he had understood from Mr. Craw ,ne„ of 1 the Inspectors of Prisons, that the prison disci -47:2 witi`teerica was more severe than our own,. espe• to"" at", L re gard to corporal punishment, which was . in %Litt, extent discretion of the officers of the prison, ton,..'qie: - ` ll t that would not be tolerated in England. - wet e 4 that th of gaolers like all other arbitrary Zestrh:itilauhli!bille to d abuse, ( a ll chic r h )- cou ' ld only be checked by 840.. %kr' ten ence-- ea and from all that he had it ...most au perintendence was for the most part sufficiently plated 4 astnd-the system of prison discipline generally, while ;ta lks. 4 1 , - „Pted to intain the rigour of the laws, r ' t to -r°ll Princip m le a s of mercy.-( Hear, hear.) kith re 14eas ;UM silent system he was not prepared to give a decided „ 15 Ppol itt he was not inclined to agree with the Noble os sts :7se l ae • ,; e 2.th r a r t ita t t h . ere ere eat objections to it, that it 4 ,i st s s u ‘ ar i ion, and w could g not be enforced without ' ll th e ' P u ni shments.-( Hear, hear.) . He . had learned e w ere . , .akefield House of Correction _ prisoners before t t ,; , th e ~i4Djeeted to the silent system. Now . he thought ohm ine res amption should be that the untried persons Nitat °ce nt, and should not be subjected to pu aie dit oeti l t. Whereas compulsory silence was a serrou oil:: to „"--(flear; hear, hear.) He communicated this h i t .. 4 tc,,.." Magistrates, and the practice which he rt h t Caa, immediately given up.-( Hear, hear.) With rtr,'t i"s t ; H°ll gaol, in which there were . many Catholics, he , to f l,l . 'sk o d e ed any report of the abuse which the Hon. Mem- itotoN7th:lie-clergilyut he must say that if admission was refused men to visit and administer spiritual comfort asit tl )e N tni of their persuasion, it was not only cruel, and Go tt ts ss,serated for an instant, but it was absolutely unlawful fe te 's/ Is zest the express provisions . of a statute. The re- ' 4los e e rlai o t ed that persons visiting prisoners should do so un -1,4 ftertirestrictions ; but if those operated to prevent pri 44"gt to Ithreceiving religions education, when they did not ilis, - °,eorp ot , e, Established Church, he should condemn them. et i s ',was ;a' Punishment, it was true that the power of order le "t kr a T l en to the Visiting Magistrates, but mark how spar toke% i tsed- In 1840 the total number of male adults in 1 207 4 70 °1 England and Wales was 69A28, say in round tele sales ° f The Hon. Gentleman said there had . been t r to e. eor or I punishment in that year, but he did not s t m ale _ p a . . s.',Net s! 41°14, and Graham) realty . thought that lii"tatioen`lileenile prisoner violating rules, a slight personal tli r efrr r i e t was a very proper and even salutary proceeding ; ko qt; met to those 70,000 male adults he found that est ' a ttes t ! °f inflictions of corporal punishment did Ne ts ,' 'le. H ° s "en. So the returns stated.---( Hear, hear.) Ids'el li. ueit: pentlernan would ask him, after all, why he t 'esi o ' t hat h Y ' Now, he would tell the Hon. Gentleman to sN e t o e, thoufsht the House would have come to the con -4), IttZlnieh he himself had come, that progressively, Ir a , i st ,. , surely they were arriving at an improved state of t h l p is t a h r l is i :h li t 4 n e in this country. The Executive Government Oiats to that House •he was at that moment afford tes,,,;nee of th • el' He believed that the at t ,. their responsibility: . kas i s sYsles o 'l,a Committee would lead to a disturbance of sedo ' s 4 : b sd ' . l' T ßi b eh he was anxious to maintain for the present. sr o , ft on eh e chang e of persons at the Home-Office, had 4 '''ellt en aTlge in the principles which guided the Go kille o ot e t n 'this 'subject. - (Heir, hear.) He entreated the it 'les e6 ' to r ° is iis Pr s b the present aysstem. If any Gentleman 11.. Is s i e 4 eli t ! e o v ti e , d l t - h g assi :elore the House particular case for its con e facts of that case be stated and investigated. sFistrn'tstatnhos,shlnhillit would be far more conducive to the public l 'lL_Peintment of a Committee. Under these 11 ° , 4 • - '''''44 that the House would reject the tilt, WARLEy 14 4 6 1)1 e Lora ~, said h e was sure the information which k ‘ th e 4 d just receivede Secretary of State for the . Home Depart , ro e was °° k must be gratifying to him. lie heard .ii ' tueentchange whatever in that department of the Il tj ' °Li I*-V N '' lir A v ARA M -- As related .to that particular matter. 11'1,-EY Yes as related to that particular matter. tikk i k e ' ,4 Was going on precisely as it did . before; all the lla s ise s„ a tlons of the Noble Lord were faithfully adopted, B Sa ell l l ,, - IP r eeernent was such that it was highly desirable th at set be no change.. Now it had been said by a great e st seke celebrated writers, that the merits of great men o t , d tsso ;14 known until they were dead.-(Laughter.) In • tif , e.,_ it'd tai Itt . 'esenaed that political suicide, at all events, was a ,Is s ~st-i, ta '"(Lond laughter.) The Noble Lord lived to hear 'Vt"' t . ' Officially he was dead-it was " the late Secre `a Ot ‘te," t: t i t i i , h aft , and the late Secretary of State had the plea (' s he li ng his commendations from a quarter from Nle s , lis t e l ,d oo reason to expect. He was sure that the Noble ilt.r.'-ellexpecteil such commendations from such a bin - \ Iri 4 , 41 e had heard the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite l l h:sstli s se.rY different tone with regard to what was passing s ,- - Ohl sr,!e Government existed. That night, however, t 'sea l- d 1),A• Gentleman had spoken in a different manner st,st;,:dies, bee most free and most liberal in the com as), Yof which he had bestowed on the late Se bei 'ti kat e , k ts oi h i , ~ s for the Home Department.-( Hear, hear.) illilefkiNi7Jltened most attentively, in order . to . ascertain fi ve l 44 11,7 be en In the system of governing prisons which l'l a lto tt r s Os:....Gentleman would condemn ; but it appeared, si n " bOa.. aft giest laborious research-after the must atten- Zse s _sa oii er the most searching investigation which he iirl 4 t he t , ' to bestow upon the question then under discus -oEnts4t tshietis nothin g to condemn nothing to alter, in the "te 4 1 1 it - the late' Governmenthad pursued.-(Hear.) HO s ' as' 4 181 the Right Hon. Gentleman had not . said that 'la ''et ° was on that side of the House.-( Hear, hear.) '141„• G. et to ol F r 11, t cati fte ate to alter, and he trusted that the . Right . n it e n tlit,N h , V,would be convinced, before the discussion hi `et f4ci t Mpf„not given a satisfactory answer to his Hon. t h eli dstd2nts i n ,i7, s sa.r_Y, he would ask, to continually harrow vi ' ` 4 4... - ' L ine 1-1 bsuch representations as hai . 041 , y hi s „ s Ouse ohs tl - 'Pe of ,tt oh. Friend? He was willing to trust to cr„' th:esa r , he Secretary of State. He believed that he th:el t, t Y h k r tsn's of vigilantly and faithfully, but after t o ;_al st por ,: s e lrd of the Magistrates, he thought it was tOs4'ilbssessr,r,nners under their care.-( Heat:, hear.) If t liih k otsNhi s - '.‘ e xceeded their authority, the House . ought kt ;'4l Ili% et into its consideration, and give poor prisoners "'SOO f 6h s tiao o t i s °l s e law. In his opinion. such a state of t 't 'O l l vn t ake n '') ,oe allowed to exist for another week. Look tr lss t ‘' AI -slt stt ii; Place at Ipswich; there the chaplain had not tisi t • t e an a pst sat e prisoners, but had refused to do so by order hal ; tha,Per4L., If they sat down quietly under such state i.' -,-,. th --i„Such practices to continue, it was impos tie;4lteelBre Q ,, ll °'ise tould retain any portion of ' t lt i ,t) , e l . w ere -- - ' r espect. Nine-tenths of the crimes a ' th' cite'lN 44 Honourable Colleague had very 1 4 :atly to tcributable to ignorance and to poverty. tlioa th;!'itiai e weglect of the Legislature that there were to 4 . 1 4 411," tern..,ansl they ought rather to be objects of_com kss,t'ry t h 'af m i vi tY• He thought the improvement in the h l ta t `, l ‘tes - se a t e . p l i . a t ,,se much hid nut said, existed rather ettai,L to ~!andy 4 'Lice. The dimon of capital unish tlt ts.?reept`eitios great improvement-(Cheers)-b p t with asseee s ,.. s sss co rn _ savages u in the e;° Ii "inti- 6 ' Infli ct - '3, we were becoming . tsts a, bses el ds p • e d• The first inquest he hadeverluld -100 '''o "kil n ,' to had been upon the body of a black, t , ° 4 l Nr a l .444 had, the streets of the Metropolis in a state of k' q pltteti for , because he was in a state of destitution, ti K l ea t tl 'elii s ' al e rea t i nll t.irree month s , with heed labour, to the Sit e it S ltti oo . tee months, with hasl labour, to the 54,f Jaeolirao 1,0 C oldbath-fields. That man, a native h it 0 4 . , I . l ara e ' n atl been laced upon the tread-mill on igst o ,"io o 'le (ii t n,t l before the three months had elapsed he •.'' ita 43 -medical e* w akley) had no hesitation in giving it as as ) , s es against k op, a man, that the sentence passed i' t n o: ci t4 s i sp o l' n tt t ir it it,"tethueewse(v4 death. The tread-mill was exposed 4,4114t54 thtttuppos4 ills crest weather, and after the man had s„,No i , i'l it . 0 tre ad . ' 'lle v ' ‘ 6,-eathar tread he sat upon the bench, exposed 'slop became affected, and he died. t ti e Nia, 4 l t o Ma t , fi. that the Visiting Magistrates might have l eft • 1 ta Whet °ln Puishment, but there might be some rAtt eel 5.4 hither they Possessed that power.. Why . the i s ias,,iitle. for I se (11Atitr, iLterfered to prevent this punishment ,th I ttl s °l' n ea t • w aklea) could not tell. In another .4 441 4 0 rd I:',' had e ee n g Vbs. of bacon from an open shop in rep t ho e d I:,' si.._ Weeks sentenc(d to six months' imprisonment k e 7, 41, 1 ', H e .!_ ii eelcs of the time to be passed in solitary 1441 et te"t r tlail y g• e u ss 't state a few instances to the House. % • 4 1 , 14 aPort ntie t eals before Christmas, a man was sen iettr, je k . her for life for stealing a penny out of a th k k It o man w as L 'l 4 % 4 , l te a i i„ ,, , . sentenced to transportation for ifol,h_tt for of it nth half-sentenced out of a letter. Another t 000 ,6 wo k %Lanai:: .I:llnraitted by him (Mr. Wakley) from td Ist_eaqinette whom e The man pulled out of bed a 4 4 1 7 N thattuots her, si p res eo se h ab b i e t r ed a kicked it h:r b a i b s ou k t ne t e h s e d t i r tviti ll e 4 3 f a she t o l d, 'l ' he would rip the child out tin that sOt of a most notorious thief and ruffian. i ity ! sir : ti f h er. of th . a t . poor woman caused her death, o te an d r esta t , en !Prlogs and there was not a mitt ift let tot tot a those in the ease: The man was found a s t ett e , e tr tell' fors at which a man was tip s an s Ported f l kdh til this °ther or , for stealing a penny out list , 1 1 wa,s a r aan, guilty of the death of . a woman and , ,retts. ahn,‘._ etenced to le tr o hooq- . la o , it .twelve months' imprisonment 4ro,atttesi that obtain the was impossible that laws so admi t to lief t h e . . respect and confidence of the people. 1, , _. h lor rn o ,_ Ho would therefore proceed in right 4 tr: t ' t; l :j,_‘lst a ', 1 7 1 erl f min.al law, and the Go P vernincnt of the eeehng tone in which the Right Hon. oche seb; 'secret s ,. r 00.., h ,e, •Let, e ,tati berEY jo_r_.mt.hre .Home Department had spoken lo se ~`- ' ,otqs maj or; ,!_ei s led by them all--( Hear, Lear)._ 1) 0 ,, t ‘,' th e ': . ' . eAt w,:u1.;7 yin the House, he truded the Right ~,„_ll Jo.thnseene tiss e g so not allow the matter to rest, but would '''.. st io i ro s i Ilinovat:ti : e pt o n o n i t e a su C b e je m e m t. ittee, which should sues, s t o • -le o n i, , factslie naeneddmedatneroitalas egislatinn,gnaltie,- thee had already . y ought, after receiving the lie- THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EV port of a Committee, to proceed to enact measures that would adjust the law, and relieve prisoners from the cruelty and degradation they now suffered. Sir C. DOUGLAS said that with respect to his friend the clergyman, to whom allusion had been made, no man could have better discharged his duties, both as a clergyman and a Magistrate, than that Rev. Gentleman. The lion. Gentle man opposite bad said he wished that that clergyman were summoned and examined at the bar of the House. He (Sir C. Douglas) also wished he were examined at the bar, when an opportunity would be afforded him of vindicating his cha racter. In a paper which he (Sir C. Douglas) held in his hand, that Rev. Gentleman stated that only in extremely ag gravated eases was recourse had to severity, and he laid it down as a general principle that mitigation of the penalty in. creased the repetition of the offence. Mr. HAWES would only address a few observations to the House, because he felt himself under the necessity of op posing the motion of his Honourable Friend. The Hon. Member baring founded his motion entirely on the Report of the Prison Inspectors, who had full opportunity of visiting the gaols and prisons, it was a better means of arriving at good le gislation than any inquiry the House could conduct. Ile re. joiced to find that the subject had received so much of the at tention of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. At the com mencement of the last Session he had called the attention of the Right lion. Baronet to a portion of a Report that had been laid on the table of the House, and he was bound to say that he had paid him every consideration.. He trusted, therefore, after what had fallen from him, that the inquiry he had evi dently made would be attended with some advantage. He thought great and unnecessary prejudice had been raised against the system of separate confinement ; by confounding it with solitary confinement, against ashich there was a well founded objection both in America. He read an extract from the last Report of the American lespectors of Prisoill, showing that the ill effects consequent on solitary confinement, had not followed on separate confinement. By means of the Visiting Magistrates, the inspectors of prisons, and the rseice that might be taken of their Reports in the House by a Member of Parliament, there were facilities for de tecting abuses in prison management that had never existed before. Some regret had been expressed that there was not an uniformity of discipline, but when it was proposed to give to the Secretary of State some stringent powers of enforcing such an uniformity, it was strongly objected to by the House, and it was hardly fair to turn round and blame the Secretary of State for a want of that uniformity which he had not the sower to enforce. In the case of the Penitentiary that had been referred to, he thought much of the distressing and unfortunate results that had taken place, might have been avoided if the prison had been more immediately under the power of the executive. He explained that, in op posing the motion, he believed the Hon. Gentleman was more likely to accomplish his intentions by acting on the report of the inspectors, and building gradual improvements on their in formation, than by appointing a committee. He concluded by paying a high tribute of praise to the ability and general spirit of the speech of the Home Secretary. Lord MAHON concurred in the concluding sentence of the Hon. Member for Lambeth, who had truly said that the speech of his Right Hon. Friend would give great satisfaction to the country.—( Hear, hear.) And he thought that his Right Hon. Friend had given good reasons for refusing the Committee. He thought that the reports of the Prison In spectors showed that there was a gradual and progressive re form in the Government prisons. But he apprehended that whatever improvement might be effected, whilst there was in this country the punishment of imprisonment for a term of years, nothing like a perfect system would be introduced. To whatever • country they looked they found everywhere the most lamentable deficiencies. Opposed to the silent system was that of general communica tion of the prisoners; and to it also there were the greatest objections. In the gaol of Bedford, as appeared from the re port of the Inspector fur lest year, it was stated that the most deplorable moral evils were occasioned by the unrestricted com munication of the prisoners. A number of persons were brought in last year, in such a lamentable state of ignorance that they did not know the name of the Saviour—( Hear) — and the meritorious efforts of the chaplain to remove that ig norance were counteracted by the contaminating example of the prisoners. Two of the latter passed the whole of the time in swearing and other misconduct, to distract the attention of a third, who was endeavouring to read a religious book ; and others of them tore up the prayer-books that were given them, to make instruments of gambling.—(Hear.) He had a paper from the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancas ter, which gave an account of John Taylor, who was confined in Monmouth goal in solitary imprisonment. At the end of a few days he was dead ; a Coroner's inquest sat on his body ; it was proved that the unfortunate man had not committed suicide, but that he died from depression of spirits, and a fear, that being left alone, he would be haunted by ghosts_a feel ing that exercised great terror over ignorant people. There was also, in the sixth Report of the Inspectors of Pr:.sons, an account of a young woman in Bristol Bridewell, who, not withstanding her entreaties not to be left alone, being locked up in solitary confinement, twice attempted suicide. He (Lord Mahon) had been lately told, by a most respectable Magistrate, that to his own knowledge he had seen no less than six cases of suicide in the City of London which had re sulted from solitary confinement. In the Milbank Penitentiary several persons had also lost their lives in consequence of the system of solitary confinement. To what system of punish ment should the House have recourse ? Certainly it should not be to that species of confinement which resulted in loss of life. If prisoners deserved to lose their lives, they should be exposed to that punishment by the criminal law of the land; but they should not be exposed or subjected to a system of punishment which terminates in death. Again, he would ask the House to consider what was to become of the prisoners who were discharged after a long term of im prisonment? How was it possible for unfortunate prisoners, with a blasted character, to obtain employment in this coun try, where there was so much difficulty for persons of unble mished reputation to get anything to do ? Upon that subject he would ask the House to consider the expressions made use of by the Recorder of Exeter, in his address to the Grand Jury, at the Sessions ending January, Bel. That Learned Gentleman, having adverted to his own painful feelings in discharging the duty of passing sentence upon offenders in his Court for first offences, said he had often observed that such persons . (meaning prisoners convicted of their first offences) exhibited proofs of deep and sincere repen tance—of such feelings of repentance as lie was sure they did feel deeply and sincerely—in such cases he felt it hit duty to point out to the unfortunate wretches the advantages of good character ; but his heart sunk within him when he reflected upon what these poor people would have to encounter when they came to carry out their good intentions, and began to act upon the feelings of repentance which they then unques tionably entertained. When they were discharged, what be came of them ?—they were forsaken by their friends, and sneered at by their old acquaintances, until at length they were driven to the commission of some greater crime than that for which they before had been convicted." That was an opinion coming from a legal authority, and was certainly worthy of considerable respect.—( Hear, hears) Again, it was the opinion of the Governor of the Milbank penitentiary, that it was impossible to provide employment for prisoners when discharged from prison, and that is very easily accounted for, because when, as he (Lord Mahon) stated be fore, so many persons of good character found it difficult to pro cure employment in this country, it must, as a matter of course, be infinitely more difficult for persons of blemished cheracter to get employment ; and he. believed that many prisoners in this country 'were discharged from prison sincerely and heartily de sirous to avoid the commission of crime for the future, if they could but obtain employment. He was in favour of the prin ciple of transportation, because then prisoners were removed to a new state of society, where their former characters was no bar to their employment, or to their carrying their virtuous in tentions into effect. He (Lord Mahon) trusted that his Right Honourable Friend would turn his attention to the adoption of some means to provide employment for prisoners after their discharge. With reference to the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies, he (Lord Mahon) had seen a plan which appeared to bins to bo entirely and com pletely satisfactory with respect to prison legislation, and he thought that transportation did afford advantages not only to the criminal population, but to the public at large--it was be neficial to the public, who were interested in repressing crime --it was beneficial to the criminals, who were interested in procuring employment and being reformsd—and it was bene ficial to the colonies, who would have the advantage of addi tional labour. Upon the whole, he perfectly concurred with his Right Hon. Friend the First Lord of the Treasury, who, in the last speech he had made upon the subject, stated that the system of corporal punishment, combined with expatria tion, would more completely answer all the necessities of this country, than any other system which it would be possible to introduce into it. Mr. O'CONNELL was rather surprised at the 'speech of the Noble Lord. He first stated that he was in favour of a full inquiry, and he concluded by expressing quite a different opinion. He (Mr. O'Connell) felt himself bound to vote in favour of the motion of the Hon. Member for Finsbury, though he regretted it, because the inquiry he sought was much wider than was necessary. He was not aware that the discussion upon the subject would have taken so wide a range. otherwise he would have been able to support the motion more effectually. The fact was, that he had appointed two o'clock to-morrow for ob taining information upon the subject of prison discipline; but in the first instance lie should protest against what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. Wakley). .With respect to the mitigation of pu n i s h men t, i n hi s (Mr. O'Con nell's) opinion, it was one of the most consoling things for the Legislature and for the country at large, that the number of persons now put to death all over the country did not amount to the number of capital convictions that used to take place in the sessions of the Old Bailey, more particularly when the number of crimes were increasing almost daily. In Belgium the punishment by death was com pletely abolished, though there was something capricious in the relative amount of punishment inflicted for crime there. No later than the other day he saw by the newspapers, that a man who was convicted of the manslaughter of a woman, by giving her a blow of which she died,was sentenced to only one month's imprisonment. Yesterday he saw an account of the con viction of a man fur killing a woman, the sentence pro nounced upon was six months' imprisonment; and in the same newspaper, he saw an account of the con viction of a man who ran away with a letter, containing 2.55., and lie was sentenced to twelve months. He (Mr. O'Connell) would not be an advocate for having the punish ment quite so capricious, but what he meant to call the at. tention of the House to more particularly, was the complaints of Roman Catholics, or rather the complaints of the Roman Catholic clergy, fur being prevented from attending those pri soners who are members of the Roman Catholic persuasion. The Right Hon. Baronet read the Act of Parliament, and he said he was ready to work out that Act. He seemed to think that there was an evasion of it attempted, and that the object was to keep out improper per sons. The complaint was, that the Roman Catholic clergy were not allowed in the prisons unless they were specially called on by the prisoners, who were completely in the power of the gaolers andof the Magistrates, who were almost in every instance adverse to the admission of the Roman Ca tholic clergy, and consequently they were prevented from dis charging their duties. What was required was that the Roman Catholic clergy should be allowed to go into prisons to visit the prisoners of that persuasion, without being previously re quired by the party to do so, There was no person who more manifestly'required the aid of a clergyman than the party who hesitated to make the request to have the clergyman called in—he had little or no impulses towards repentance, and he of all others was just the man who required to be visited and roused by his clergyman. He (Fir. O'Con nell) would not dwell further upon this subject at present, as he meant to bring it specifically before the House. There was one fact, however, which he must state—it appeared that in the county of Middlesex a number of Roman Catholic ladies of station, of rank, and of fortune, had formed themselves into a society to visit the sick; they were prevented from visiting some of the Roman Catholic inmates of the prisons; there were no less than three meetings of the magi s t ra t es o f Mid dlesex ; the proposition that those ladies should be allowed to visit the prison was considered, and very poorly sup ported in point of numbers, but it was ultimately overruled.— ( Hear, hear.) Now if it happened in Ireland that a number of Protestant ladies were prevented by Roman Catholic Magis trates from acting sa laudably as those ladies in Middlesex in tended, no language could be strong enough to reprobate the conduct of such Roman Catholic Magistrates.—( Hear, hear. ) He (Mr. O'Connell) should say that it would be an uncharita ble and an unchristian act, and no credit would be done to any party capable of being guilty of it—(Hear, hear)—it was not likely that the Roman Catholic clergy could be supposed to nine within the meaning of those whom. the Act of Parliament called " improper persons. "—( Hear, hear. ) They were educated men, certified for by their Bishops . ; there was, therefore, no reason why they should be shut out from the discharge of their duties. The question was becoming every day more and more interesting, not alone to the pri soners and the clergy who were directly interested, but the interest was every day augmenting amongst the upper classes of Roman Cath o li cs . A c l ause was introduced into the Act of Parliament, providing that whenever there were Roman Ca tholics in a prison, a chaplain should be had for them at the expense of the county. That clause was struck out in the House of Lords—( Hear, hear)—it was to be la mented that a proposition so rational in its nature should not be acceded to; however, the clause was struck out, and some time ago an application was made to ap point a Roman Catholic Chaplain to a prison; the Grand Jury said they could not provide for him. The Roman Catho lie Bishop (Dr. Griffiths) said he would appoint a clergyman gratuitously, that he would pay him out of his own pocket; but the Midelesex Magistrates refused him permission to visit the prison, unless whenever he happened to be specially sent for. When he ( Mr. O'Connell) should bring tho=e, together with many other similar facts, before the House, he would respect fully claim a legislative measure to allow Roman Catholic cler gymen to go into the gaols to attend prisoners whenever they thought fit- There was also a very just complaint that in some prisons Roman Catholics were obliged to attend at the Pro testant service. Even these were grievances of a peculiar nature. This was a system which every one must consider cruel, and as for Christianity, he thought there was very little Christianity in those who would not. act to others as they would he acted by. Lord JOHN RUSSELL commenced by alluding, in a low tone of voice, to certain observations which had been made in the course of the debate, which bore no reference to the ques tion. The question before the House this evening was, whe ther it was fit that an inquiry should be instituted into the pre sent system of prison discipline. The answer to the proposal made by the Right llon. Gentleman was, that no benefit would arise from such a proceeding. He admitted that the present system of prison discipline was not the most perfect, but they were making such progressive improvement from year to year as could not be accelerated with advantage ; and by the system established by law they had every circumstance first reported to the Secretary of State, and then laid on the table of both Houses of Parliament, so that every publicity was given to abuses. It was only necessary that Members should ask the Secretary of State for any information, and the Secretary of State would be able to answer their inquiries, and he ( Lord John Russell) was sure that the Right Hon. Gentle man had shown his readiness to-night to adopt such a course.— ( Hear, hear.) Now, if from the statements made to the Se cretary of State it should appear that the law was not sufficient or that it required to he remedied, there would then be a case made out for any Hon. Gentleman to propose an amendment for such defect in the law, but he could net see that any good would be done by having a general inquiry into this law. His col league, his Hon. Friend, gave up half the case when he said he did not want a general inquiry. The Hon. Member said that inquiry was useless; all they wanted was a report. Now the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had just spoken had re ferred to one case of abuse, and on which he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had not received correct in formation. It was relative to the case of Roman Catholic prisoners ; and he ( Lord .T. Russell) confessed that there was a defect in the law on this subject, and he regretted that the law proposed by Mr. Langdale had not become the law of the land. It had oocurred to him (Lord J. Russell) when he was Secretary of State, and received applications relative to the admission of religious instructors into prisons, he thought first that they should be complied with, but, on hearing the objections of the Magistrates, he thought they were well founded; for though the applicants might be proper persons, and actuated by sincere zeal, yet if they opened the doors wide to all those who were willing to give religious instruc tion, the probability was that they would destroy the peace of mind of the prisoners by their contradic tory and, it might be, fanatical doctrines. Indeed he did not think that the state of the prisoners would he at all im proved by such indiscriminate • admission. He did not think that the Right Hon. Gentleman could Isroperly assent to such a measure, thegh he should be glad to see some improvement in the condition of the Roman Catholic prisoners. In this county there must be a great number of Roman Catholic pri soners, and he (Lord J. Russell) must confess it appeared to him that the decision of the Middlesex Magistrates was not jus tifiable under the circumstances; he could not see why the Roman Catholic ladies should not be allowed to appoint their visiting Committee, or why Dr. Griffiths, a most respectable person, should not have the power to send a chaplain of his own to visit the prisoners. But with respect to the motion made by his Hon. Friend, he (Lord J. Russell) did not see any prac tical advantage to be gained from it, because all the improve ments which could be made, had better be made by the Execu tive Government—( Hear, hear)—to whom it more properly belonged. And when a case of abuse occurred to a. Member which required explanation, he was sure every information would be given on the subject. He must. therefore, vote against his Hon. Friend if he pressed his motion to a division. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose to cor rect sonic error which had fallen from his Hon. Friend, who had adverted to the state of the House of Correction belonging to the University of Cambridge, called the spinning -house, and who gave an account of that house of correction, as described by the Inspectors three years since. No one could deny that that building was ill-constructed and ill adapted for the purposes of a house of correction. The Hon. Gentleman certainly added that there was a law-suit pending there between three parties, to which those inconve niences were owing; but if he had looked at the later Report of the Commissioners, he would have found that the contest between the town, the corporation, and the University was still pending, and that so far from the University refusing to remedy any inconveniences, the Inspectors of Prisons had communicated with the Vice-Chancellor of the University on the subject, who had referred them to his solicitor, in order that some remedy might be devised, and by the solicitor's re marks appended to the Report, it appeared that the law. suit was still pending, but that permanent arrange ments were being made, in order to secure the re ligious services of a chaplain, and to separate the male and female prisoners. He (the Chancellor of the Exche quer) thougnt that it would be found that every thing the University could do, it had done. But the Hon Gentlemen had made a charge of a more serious nature, which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could satisfactorily prove to be without foundation. He alluded to a suburb of Cambridge called Barnwell, which had grown up lately into a populous town, and had become the residence of a large number of per sons of bad character. He had stated that the lodging-houses were crowded with persons of the worst description ; and that there were men going about with dog-carts, who professed to be distributing religious tracts. If that were so, he ( the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not know but the Hon. Gentleman having summed every thing up, said that that was the only religions instruction which the University afforded to the inhabitants of Barnwell. If the Hon. Gentleman had taken means to inquire, he would have known that in this in stance, instead of there being any want of zeal on the part of the University, there was no instance where they had exerted themselves to a greater extent, or with more success. He would know that one gentleman alone, a Fellow of Trinity Col lege, though possessed of small means, had built a c h urc h there capable o f h o ldi ng more than a thousand individuals, and had taken the entire duties of that church upon himself, where he acted as minister; • and still finding that there was a growing necessity for religious instruction in that parish, he had completed a second church, by which the means for religious instruction was considerably enlarged. The Right Hon. Gentleman so far from denying the exertions of the University would, he, (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was sure, knowing his candour, be the first to admit that their exertions had been most strenuous and successful, Mr. BROTHERTON said he was quite sure that many prisoners were brought to take their trial who had no right to be convicted at all, but whose cases should have been disposed of in another way less expensive to the country. He had merely risen to represent this fact to the House, If anything could be done to improve the condition of prisoners confined in the House of Correction, and to reinstate ;hem in society, he should be glad to have it adopted; and if the Hon. Member should divide, he (Mr. Brothert on ) wou ld vote f or hi m, bu t h e would advise him not to divide.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. HARFORD spoke in so low a tone of voice, that he was scarcely audible in the gallery. We understood him to say that having been for some time Sheriff for th e coun t y o f Monmouth, his attentio n b a d been called to the prison disci. pline. He had found in the Monmouth prison no less than four men sleeping in one bed, and the gaol crowded in all parts, and the drainage so bad as seriously to affect the health of the prisoners. He hoped such abuses would be remedied. Lord G. SOMERSET, as a Magistrate of the county of Monmouth, felt called on to explain something relative to the state of the prisons in Monmouth. The attention of the Ma gistrates of Monmouth had lately been called to the subject of prison discipline, and a new county gaol was now being erected at an expense of from 15,0001. to 16,0001., and at this moment an inquiry was going on to consider how far it would be pos sible to improve the condition of the other gaols. A new gaoler from Bristol _had also been lately appointed to Mon mouth Gaol to ensure proper discipline, so that he thought it could not be said that the Massistrates. of Monmouth had neg lected to consider this important matter. Mr. DUNCOMBE was understood to say that he regretted should it Isis measure had met w ith so much opposition, as the only ar dg u u e n; i e v n e t o h f e a n; had good.hea r He against like eo knowsithatitlh e v ou a l t d ha n r o m t do? be pro it could After the kind manner, however, in which his . motion had been treated, he should not press the House to a division, but he hoped that when he allowed this motion to be negatived without a division, he should not be considered as ap proving of the present system.—( Hear, hear, hear.) There was no uniformity in the present system, and what he desired was, that the whole system of diet, labour, and disci pline, should be investigated by a Committee; and he had no doubt that a Committee appointed for that purpose would strike out some plan to mitigate the cruelties at present prac tised. But he did not intend to press the matter to a division, and not being able to obtain an inquiry, he was satisfied at least the discussion would be productive of good.—(Hear.) He was sorry to be oblised to state what he did respecting Cambridge, but he believed that the (prison at Barnwell re mained without any improvement, with the exception that prayers had now been celebrated there every Sunday. He warned the House that a strong feeling was abroad that, though they mitigated their criminal code, by their present principle they were only substituting the prison for the scaffold ; and that those who entered those prisons came out emaciated crip ples for life.—( Hear, hear.) He was well aware that there was a difference between the silent and solitary systems, and also that there were two systems of solitary confinement ; one in dark cells with a diet of breath and water, and the other well aired and lighted cells. He would not withdraw his motion, but allow it to be negatived without a division. The motion was then put,'and negatived without a division. IMPORTATION OF HILL COOLIES INTO THE WEST INDIES. Mr. VERNON SMITH said that having ventured to give notice of the motion which he was now called on to move he should be unwilling to call the attention of the House to it, if the Noble Lard, the Secretary for the Colonies, had ,taken upon himself to invite their attention to the subject. He begged to assure the House that it was not his attention to re tard the progress of improvement now going forward in the Mauritius and the West Indies, but because .he believed the views of the Noble Lord on the subject were calculated to re tard that improvement he determined to introduce the matter to the House. And not only were the Noble Lord's views, in his opinion, calculated to retard that improvement, but he believed from the rashness with which he treated the subject that he would endanger the safety and security of the inha bitants of India. In order to put the House in possession of the precise position in which the subject stold it would be necessary to recapitulate and go back to the subject as it stood when before brought under the consideration of the House. The House would recollect that after the passing of the Emancipation Act —that noble Act which was obtained by the sacrifices made by the people of this country to individuals whose estates would be prejudiced by its passing- s -it was supposed that the emancipated slaves would rather live in repose in their ener vated climate, than undertake those labours which the inha bitants of more northern climes were accustomed to. On such a supposition it was considered that the worst place from which a supply could be obtained was the East Indies ; and those who took any interest in the question would remember that an importation of Hill Coolies into the West Indies and the Mauritius took place, the former in the year 1835, and the latter in 1837. He did not wish to enter into any subject that could give offence to any person, but he would say that when the question of the introduction of Hill Coolies into British Guiana was under consideration, Lord Brougham whose eyes were always open to anything that affected the black popula tion, and who had done so much in this cause, made one of nding speeches upon th e O r d er his eloquent and hea rt-re , in Council on the subject in 1838, and 'their introduction was stopped ; and so strong was the impression produced, that tie. thing would satiate the desire of the country but the stopping of the traffic, and instructions were accordingly sent to the Governor of India to prevent their importation. In the year 1840, after his Noble Friend ( Lord John Russell) had been for six months in the Colonial-office, he conceived that some thing must be done on the subject ; but, jealous as he was of the privileges of Parliament, and upon a question so much agi tated, he thought it right the subject should be laid before Parliament, and he introduced the Colonial Passengers Act; but the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) suggested he had better issue an Order in Council, which, however, his Noble Friend did not do, considering that he could not issue an Order in Council, for the purpose of its being subsequently discussed in Parliament. But a few days after the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, the Member for Pembroke, made another proposition, that a Bill should be introduced on the I subject to Parliament, and that a discussion might then take P• lace That was the opinio n o f the Right Hon. Baronet, but his (Mr. V. Smith's) Noble Friend did not adopt that system, but he did so in principle, for a clause on the subject was inserted in the Colonial Passengers Act then .passing through Parliament, and he believed that that course was ap proved of by the Right Hon. Baronet. Thus the question stood; and in the debates that ensued, the Hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets took an active part in opposition ; but, not withstanding, the Bill was carried through several stages. In the meantime, the powerful machinery of the Anti-Slavery Society was put in requisition, and an outcry was raised against himsef and his Noble Friend for the part they had taken in introducing the measure. It was not till the third reading of the measure that it was. thrown out, and thrown out, too, by the agency of the Right Ho nourable Baronet (Sir J. Graham) who came down with one of those heavy-pounder speeches for which he was so re markable, and destroyed all chance of passing that Pill at that time.—( Hear, hear.) The course he took was one of delay, because he said, " that they ought not be called on to legislate on the subject without any definite plan being laid before them by the Noble Lord" (Russell). That was the course pursued by the Right Hon. Gentle man, and also by another Hon. Gentleman, whom he saw oppo. site—a Director of the East India Company, who pressed for delay till information could be obtained from India, and who presented a petition from the East India Company for that purpose. Such was the position of the question before the House at that time, and it would be seen that the House gave its solemn sanction to the introduction of Hill Coolies from India to the Mauritius and the West Indies. He knew that one Government were not bound to the measures recommended by a different Government; but he thought it a strange course for one Government to cast blame upon another for certain measures, and afterwards to adopt the very course which they censured before.-(Bear, hear.) He would next invite the attention of the House to a Report which had been lately presented to Parliament. It was a Re port drawn up by six gentlemen, appointed for the purpose by the Governor-General of India. One of those Gentlemen, namely Mr. Arthur, had left the country before that Report had been signed ; but of the other five a majority, consisting of three, had signed the Report. They stated that " they were decidedly adverse to the emigration of Hill Coolies from the East Indies to the Mauritius, under any circumstances." One of the rive Gentlemen, a Mr. Dowson, who had refused to sign that Report, was himself a merchant, largely engaged in the export of Hill Coolies ; and the other recusant, Mr. J. P. Grant, was iavourable, on the whole, to exportation a but there were some points in his minute which would lead to a different conclusion. He acknowledged, however, that there were abuses in the system, which he divided into three heads ; namely, abuses in India, abuses at sea, and abuses in the Mauritius.—( Hear.) He admitted, among the abuses in India, that the police did not afford the protection which they might afford to the Hill Coolies ; then among the abuses at sea, was a scarcity of water in the ves sels; but the strongest point against the conclusion at which Mr. Grant had arrived, was his own admission that at sea some of the unfortunate passengers had thrown themselves overboard. That did not prove that they were satisfied with their condition ; and although Mr. Grant had stated that they had thrown themselves overboard, in order that they might be picked up again, he (Mr. V. Smith) doubted the accuracy of that statement. The principal abuse which took place in the Mauritius was, according to Mr. Grant, that those who had formerly been slave-owners, did not show themselves fit to be trusted with the management of Hill Coolies. He (Mr. V. Smith) did not mean to say that he was decidedly unfavourable to the exportation of Hill Coolies, but he thought that Parliament should take no rash or premature step upon the subject. The next paper to which he should refer, and the most important of all, was a minute drawn ,up by Lord Auck land, the late Governor-General of India. The subject had been submitted to the four Counsellors of India, but the most valuable report was that of Lord Auckland, to whose humanity and good sense such a question might safely be entrusted. Now, if Lord Auckland had said that he approved of the order of the Government, and that he thought it might immediately be acted on, he (Mr. V. Smith) admitted that that would be a perfect justification of the course pursued by the Noble Lord opposite, however precipitate that course might be considered. Ile did not believe, however, that such an infere nce cou ld be drawn from the minute of Lord Auckland. That Noble Lord, after having stated that he had read the Re port of the Commissioners, proceeded to express his doubts upon the subject. He began by saying, that " all the atten • tion he had given to the matter had not enabled him to arrive at any satisfactory conclusion. It was upon no understoodprin ciple, but by the busy intervention of the Government agents, that the first emigrants had been induced to seek their fortunes in the Mauritius ; and whether many had done so for their own good or evil was a question which there had not been time or experience enough to determine." Again, at the end of paragraph the 2d, page the 9th, he stated that " he greatly feared that no act of the Legislature, and no vigilance on the part of the constituted authorities, could prevent fraud from being practisedopon the helpless Hill Coolies in consequence of their ignorance and their poverty." In alluding to a subject to which Mr. Grant had also referred, he stated that " the police appointed to protect these people were a most ineffi cient blanch of our service ; and that the establishment of such a body had, on the whole, ended in disappointment." Lord Auckland said in another part of the minute, that if the question were that of opening a sjstem of emigration to the :Mauritius alone, he would willingly admit that it might after a time be attended with much benefit ;" hit the Noble Lord added, that "after they had been satisfied of the safety of the proposed emigration to the Mauritius, they would have to consider that such emigration could hardly take place without its leading also to renewed emigration, chiefly on the part of British subjects, from Pondicherry and other British settlements in India." There was another passage which he would read to the House—" The home authorities alone would be able to determine how far the cordial co-operation of fo reign Governments was to be relied on for a steady enforce ment of a measure to protect the natives within the limits of their settlements." Now he (Mr. V. Smith) did not think that the Noble Lord opposite had any security that he would obtain a cordial co-operation on the part of fo reign Powers ; and he was - confirmed in his doubts upon the subject from the late refusal of France to ratify the treaty, in cluding the right of search ; and he could not but forget that that country had always shown herself extremely jealous of the prosperity of our Colonies. The more he looked at the mi. mute of Lord Auckland the less did he feel disposed to think that that minute would justify the Noble Lord opposite in pur suing the course ho had taken, without having previously as certained the feelings of Parliament upon so important a ques. tion. It would appear from the minute of Mr. Princep, an other of the four counsellors, that that gentleman was adverse to the passing of any law to protect the Hill Coolies from the frauds and impositions of traders. Those frauds, practised by the crafty upon the ignorant, took place in every society, acaerding to that gentleman, and therefore the Legis lature should not interfere in such cases. Now in his (Mr. V. Smith's) opinion, such a statement was alone sufficient to throw discredit on the minute of Mr. Princep. He would next refer to the evidence given by the Hill Coolies themselves, showing their opinion of the advantages of emigration. Num bers of them, who had been in the Mauritius, had been exa mined at great length, and, with the exception of a very f ew , none were willing to leave their country again, what ever might be the indemnity held out to them. From these statements he inferred that very few wished to return to the Mauritius, or to go back to the state in which they were said to be comfortable and well off. Under proper regulations, he thought that a considerable number might be fit, that he ca ll e d the b re e ad l y )e t li o o r ,e e d tur t r i i i , e a r t , , , d gu o la tl t i i e u r n s s foundwere ntootgo; and it was b ecause attention Of the House to the subject. Up to October 1841, there had been no overwhelming evidence that should have induced the Noble Lord to depart from the course laid down by the late Government. He would not allude to anything foreign to the subject, or to anything relating to any other department than that of the Noble Lord, as to the land of pro mise held out to the House and the country during the recess ; but at the commencement of the present session, the Noble Lord had introduced, with some appearance of parade in the despatch of business, two measures, both of which he might have found prepared in the Colonial -office, the Pas sengers' Act, and the South Au s t ra li an Act. Thepreamble of the former Act would' appear to do much credit to the Noble Lord's foresight as a statesman, for it was all proba bilities. It went entirely upon, " Whereas it is probable ;" and then, in case of all these probabilities turning into cer tainties, he proposed his Order in Council. If the late Secre tary of State had acted in this manner, they would hare been told that this was an ex .mple of the rash conduct of the Whig Government, its carelessness of existing institutions, and its readiness to break through them, to serve a purpose. He wished to know if that Order in Council was issued with any knowledge of the opinions of the East India Com pany upon it, for it was that body which, on the last occasion presented a petition adverse to the Bill. lie con sidered that the Noble Lord had put the question in the most awkward shape possible for the realization of the hopes enter tained by the planters of the Mauritius, and also' in the worst shape for the safety and security of the Hill Coolies themselves. Ile had issued an Order•in Council not to eat/Cute but to Prot pose to execute; it must have been issued as a compliment to the Mauritian planters. Was it hot likely that In India. they would be as anxious to secure and r e t a i n their supply of labour, for which there was a demand in the manufacture of sugar, and therefore be as anxious to prevent the exportation of that labour as the :Mauritian planters would ,be to import it ?—(Cries of " Hear, h ear ," from Lord Stanley.) The Noble Lord might cheer that, but if employment and sus tenance could be found at home for this class, would it not be better that they should be so employed, than forced to seek it CS f abroad that the The Coolies pn e i couldpa principal reason not g for e t have left them free to seek labour where it could be found, if they were given protection against imposition. at home ; the better and wider principle would have been to the employment m ea s measure forasuttblhhil themselves ci nt a rh i se l ae c adi g tve e da d great corporation the House hereafter, but the Noble Lord might perhaps indulge Council two days of if that- correspondence was in existence, ~g that between seen any the Nobly a t net only had the East India l Lord correspondence and telndia Board,ne d ha o n u dt b h i wo h e til a t bdhhaptda which Company or later be decided by ou this question, which must sooner pr b i y ag rbtl right Parliament. knowon b t. l c Lord in Noble v‘o .ba t lse h wait for the ' against himself the opening of Parliament, but issued his Order before. Was it that he did not wish to raise a discus sion in Parliament, or to excite t the similar measure was so anxious to excite agams such difference be of the late Government? Was there any and thee tween the position of these persons in 1810 his position his with time, as to induce the Noble Lord to change such a difference, then to this subject? If there was not the factious oppo.. id then the Noble Lord was responsible for G the opinion radt tdebutnoof t th n h a a t t t e beenp sition he had given to the measure of the late overnmert in 1840. In introducing the Passengers' Act, the Noble Lord had never mentioned the question to which he (Mr. V. Smith) was then ca lli ng t h e attent i on of the House ; but a fortnight after th e B i ll was pro d uce d, he foundna a marginal note attached to it, w hi c h m i g ht be considered to refer to the Hill Coolies, as it empowered the Governor-General of India, to adopt th e p rov i s i ons o f t h at A c t, if necessary, i n t h e possessions of Briti s h I n di a . Did t h e N o ble Lord by this mean to raise the question of emigration from India or not ? If he did, whsr not state so in the introduction of the Act ? if not, why had he issued the ord er i n C oun cil two days before th e m a e ll e e t d in c g ro o w f I P l.m ar a li d a e me la n w t, , t i h n u s s- tea sa d n o e f tio la n w ing ni ss o 'h e b athe ; had himself c Parliam ent? The motion for which he h a d g i ven no ti ce was for the prod uca tion of the instructions given b y th e E as t India Company to the Governor- General, w h o was now pr oceeding thithe r , on this subject. It was hardly p oss ibl e th a t the Noble Lord h ad suffered his Colleague to proceed to India without definite instructions on this question. H e w i s h e d to know whatinstruc tions had been given, as the N o bl e L or d had been a decided enemy to the exportation of the Coolies, haring, in 1838, made a strong speech against it, in which he represented that 4 :NING, MARCH 2, 1842 race of men as utterly incapable of having any will of their own, and that, in fact, they were more like a race of monkeys than men. But it now appeared that the Noble Lord was going to sanction the exportation of these creatures; he did not think that the Governor-General,: on his arrival in India, would be very anxious to put the measure into effect.— ( Hear, hear.) He considered the course the Noble Lord had taken was most inconsistent, having to the utmost opposed the measure of the late Government to the same effect, nothing material having occurred in the interval to change his opinion. But it was not merely the inconsistency of this course that was sufficient to justify him in asking the attention of the House. He was also most anxious for the success of some great scheme, which should induce the Coolies to seek a market for their labour under proper protection, so as to enable not only the Mauritius, but the West Indies, to be cultivated in a better manner than had hi therto been the case. Ile still retained the highest interest in this question, and that was the reason he had ventured to call the attention of the House towards it. He.wished the Noble Lord to state, therefore, what steps, if ally, he had taken on this subject with foreign Powers, which had been admitted by every authority to he necessary as a preliminary measure. He wished also to know if he bad had any correspondence with the East India Company on the question, as he should be glad to hear what was now the opinion of that powerful body ; for he trusted that the mighty were not so fallen that they could be overlooked by the. Noble Lord. The last point he wished for information upon, was, what were the instructions given on this subject, either written or per sonally, to Lord Ellenborough, either by the East India Com pany, or by the Noble Lord. Lord STANLEY said he must beg the indulgence of the House while he endeavoured to answer the various at tacks that had been made on him, and on her Majesty's Go vernment, for that which had been termed the rash and precipitate course which the Government had adopted on the present occasion. lie should endeavour to show to the House, that neither had his own conduct been, as stated by the Noble Lord, inconsistent with the course taken in 1840, nor that the Government had been neglectful of the interests of the various parties they had to consider, nor that their mea sure had been adopted without,due consideration and delibera tion. One charge which the Right Hon. Gentleman had brought against the Government was, that two days before the meeting of Parliament they , had thought fit to promulgate an Order in Council on this subject. that they might speak out of the necessity of coming before Parliament. It appeared also most suspicious to the Right Hon. Gentleman, that the Order should ha ve b een i ssue d j us t two days before thel meeting of Parliament ; now. for the pur pose of formally passing an Order of this nature, it was neces sary that the Council should be called together, and the Right Hon. Gentleman's own experience was surely long enough to have told him that it was not unusual to hold a Council at that particular period. It did appear to him (Lord Stanley) singular that the Right Hon. Gentleman should assume, that because that document appeared at a date two days before the meeting of Parliament, it did so appear for the purpose of withdrawing the qu es tio n from the consideration of Parliament—(hear, hear.) But the Right Hon. Gentleman said that this was a course which her Majesty's Government had no authority to take, and that in 1840 his Noble Friend would have taken a very different course on this subject. lie (Lord Stanley) thought that the Right Hon. Gentleman had forgotten thatas soon as Parlia ment had met, the Right Hon. Gentleman, having seen the Order in Council alluded to, asked him (Lord Stanley) if it was his intention to lay that Order on the table of the House. He (Lord Stanley) stated in reply that it w as no t on l y hi s intention to do so, but also to accompany it with such docu ments as he should deem necessary for its elucidation. Not withstanding that, the Right Hon. Gentleman gave notice of a motion for the production of the Order in Council relative to emigration to the Mauritius. The Order in Council kad been laid on the table, and the Right Hon. Gentleman's motion was postponed to the followir ' s day, then to the following week, and up to this morning the Right Hon. Gentleman's notice of motion referred to the production of an Order in Council that had been laid on the table of the House a few days after the meet ing of Parliament, and this morning it first appeared that the Right Hon. Gentleman meant to move for a copy of instruc • tions which he supposed to have been given by the authorities connected with:the management of Indian affairs to the Go vernor-General of India respecting emigration to the Mauri tius. With regard to the motion itself, he (Lord Stanley) concluded that the Right Hon. Gentleman would not press it, when he was informed that no such instructions as those he alluded to were issued, and that he (Lord Stanley) had con sequently nothing to produce. The Right Hon. Gentleman was exceedingly surprised at the course pursued by the Go vernment with respect to the Order in Council, in not having previously laid it before Parliament. He (Lord Stanley) hoped that he would never, either as a Minister of the Crown or otherwise, be wanting in respect to the Houses of Parlia ment. But he would venture only to say, that in his judg ment the course pursued by Ministers, in this matter, was Con stitutional ; and in advising the Crown, they acted upon their responsibility as Ministers, and had announced to Parliament the step they had taken, inviting from Hon. Gentlemen their condemnation or approbation, as it might be, with reference to that step. That was the course which the Right Hon. Gen tleman said his Noble Friend would not have taken. Why his Noble Friend had announced his intention, in Feb. 1840, to take that very course, that he had changed his opinions, and that he was going to make a change in his conduct, and that he was going to consult Parliament previously with re spect to the step he meant to take.—(Hear, hear.) He (Lord Stanley) ventured to say that Parliame n t wou ld no t have allowed suc h a step at the time, and would thereby have shown that they had no great confidence in the Executive of the day. The Right Hon. Gentleman had the kindness to tell them that if any further information had been obtained from the Mauritius, if any circumstances occurred to alter the state of things existing in 1840—th a t h e a d m i tte d t h ere were good grounds for pursuing a different course in 1842 from that pursued in 1840. He (Lord Stanley) would tell him that the circumstances were altogether quite different. He (Lord Stanley) would endeavour to show what were the grievous abuses against which Parliament had pro tested, and the manner in which the present Government meant to meet those abuses. They had been successful in meeting those abuses in three cases—in Mauritius, on the pas sage, and in India itself. He did not deny that great abuses had prevailed in the Mauritius, with regard to the Indians brought over there. Many of them had suffered great hard ships, and were subject to great cruelty. They had, however, exaggerated accounts of the extent of the mortality among the immigrants. He had bead it stated that in the Mauritius severe treatment hail brought on a mortality among the Ilill Coolies, who it was stated were treated like slaves. lie had made inquiries with regard to the mortality, and by a return which he now had, it appeared that the number of emigrants imported between the years 1834 and 1839 amounted to 17,028, and out of that number during those five years there had died just 999, or 1 in 17, or 1-17th per cent. during those five years. Was it possible that they could have received two accounts of the sufferings and morta lity that prevailed anion.. the Hill Coolies ? Now he should state his objections to the system of emigration to the Mauri tius, as it had been hitherto conducted. Parties united and paid an agent in India, for the purpose, without any restraint, of securing and making agreements with a number of labourers to come over to the Mauritius, and, tinder a contract, to serve a particular master for five years, at a certain rote of wages. The consequence of that was, in the first place, the emigrant brought to Mau ritius found himself, when he arrived, confined to virtual slavery for a period of five years. He entered into an impro vident contract in India, but that contract seas binding upon him. He found others earning larger wages than he (lid, and that he had no opportunity of bringing his labour fairly into the market. He found that he had imprudently received ad vances with respect to clothing and other articles which caused him to be in debt to his master rather than admitting of his receiving wages. It was no wonder then, that fineing himself in a state of compulsory servitude for five years, the Hill Coolie was dissatisfied with his situation. No doubt it was an importation of immigrants to give their services to the planters at a lower rate of wages than that which they could earn in the colony, and that the emigration was con ducted for the purpose of private advantage by private agents, to satisfy private ends. It consequently led to a vast amount of injustice and suffering. The Right Hon. Gentleman had told theni that he had confidence in Lord Ellenborough, to expect that that Noble Lord would not carry into effect the pro visions of the plan proposed to be carried into operation by that Nobleman. lie (Lord Stanley) should have neglected his duty very much, if before Lord Ellenborough had gone to India, he had not entered into an examination of this subject in all its details, in repeated personal conferences with Lord Ellen borough ' • and before th a t N o ble L or d l e f t t hi s country, a ll the premises had been agreed upon, which it was intended that he, in his capacity of Governor-General of India, was to submit to his Council as their measure upon this subject, and that Noble Lord entertained the fullest conviction that he should be able efficiently to legislate for protection against the abuses of the whole system. The Government would not have been justified if they had not fully communicated with the Board of Control on this subject, and he (Lord Stanley) admitted that it was very satisfactory to him that the individual who filled the office of President of the Board of Control concurred with his Noble Friend already at the head of that Board, that with his instrumentality they would be able to carry out a system of free emigration, not subject to those abuses which had been condemned by that House. The Right Hon. Gentle man threw out a suspicion against the Members of the East. India Company so unworthy of that body, that he (Lord Stanley) could not but suppose that there was not one of them that would not repudiate the imputation sought to be fixed upon them. The Right Hon. Gentleman said, " Let them lemember that the East India Company were sugar growers." Mr. VERNON SMITH here said something across the table, but in so low a tone of voice as to be scarcely audible in the gallery. We understood the Right Hon. Gentleman to say that his observation was that the East India Company was connected with persons who were growers of sugar. L6'r,t STANLEY went on to say that he could not believe that a great body like the East India Company, answerable for its own character, as for its own interest, would throw any obstacle in the way of free emigration from India to a place where the emigrants might have higher wages and constant employment, for the purpose of keeping in India itself a supera bundant population, whose wages amounted to but lid. a-day. The Right Hon. Gentleman asked what had occurred since the year 1840. What reasons had they to suppose that those abuses which were found to take place previous to 1840 did not take place in 1842 ? The Right Hon. Gentleman charged his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department with not having taken any step in 1840. Now what had his Right Hon. Friend said? Why that he was not prepared to legislate, because parties had changed, until he had heard from the Governor-General of India, or the Governor of the Mauritius. Since that time they had heard both from the Governor-General of India, and the Governor of the Mauritius, and both those officers had stated it to be their opinion, that emigration to the Mauritius might k.he conducted with safety. Now, who was the Governor of the Mauritius. Why, Sir Lionel Smith, who of all men on the face of the earth, was the most favourable to the slave. Sir Lionel Smith in •1840, wrote to the Secretary of State, stating th a t the Indjan labourer would be much better off in the Mauritius than in their own overstocked country. Since 1840 they had had the testimony of men above suspicion that there was abundant and sufficient protection afforded in the Mauritius against any fraud that might he practised on free labourers. Added to this, they had the Report of a Committee appointed in 1838 to in. quire into the practicability of preventing the abuse that existed in India relative to emigration, and from that Report it was clear that emigration might be carried on according to the plan proposed by the Government. He regretted that the Right Hon. Gentleman had so shaped his motion as to prevent him calling upon the House to express their opinion as to the course which the Government had adopted. Under the former system a person was appointed by a planter to select certain persons, but the altera tion that was proposed had not in it the least taint of slavery. It was proposed that the Legislature of the Mauritius should be entitled to vote a certain fund for the purpose of pro moting and paying for the free immigration of labourers from India, but they were to come only from certain ports which were to be appointed by the Governor-General. At each of those ports there was to be a Government agent whose sole duty would be to see every emigrant; a person to examine whe ther they went upon their own accord, or whether they had been deluded by false expectations ; to acquai nt t h em of the probable amount of their wages, to st a t e to them that w h en they arrived at the Mau ritius they would be as free as any person on the face of the earth, to see that the ship that took them out was' perfectly provided with provisions, see - that before the ship left the port it contained a list of the - emigrants on board, and not allow any ship to g o out of the port till all 4 conditions were complied with. But that was not all, there was a further provision to the effect, that a person was to be appointed at the M aur itiu s to receive those who had chosen to become emigrants, to compare the list, to inquire of each whether they had any complaints to make, to acquaint them that no contract that they might have entered into in India was binding on them, that they were free and ready to engage with any master, subject, however, to this limitation, that for forty-eight hours they should not enter into any contract, and that anything they might enter into should not be of a longer duration than one year. Such were the provisions of the measure, and he would ask any rea sonable man whether it was possible to make greater protec tions for the labourer ? But, added to this, if the labourer was dissatisfied AI ith the island, he might return at his own ex pense ; but if he had served these five years, then he would have the right to claim a free passage back. It was, therefore, clear that there was no interest in any person to deceive the emigrants, because the great object was to get those species of emigrants there that would stay. Under the old system, it was sought to get as much as possible out of the emigrants, whi:e under the new the great object was to make them as sa tisfied as possible. But then it was said that the Governor- General had in his minutes pointed out his doubts as to the policy of allowing persons to emigrate to the Mauritius. Now what did the Governor-General of India say upon that sub ject ? The Governor-General said, " The attention which I have been able to give to the subject has led me to no very sa tisfactory conclusion upon it, embracing as it does the difficult question of opening emigration to many distant and even foreign colonies."—( freer, hear, from the Opposition.) Oh, yes ; but the Right Hon. Gentleman did not go on to read the next words, " I am clearly of opinion that the present law, which to a great degree restricts the freedom of labour and improvement in the whole Indian population, is most objectionable in prin ciple; that it will probably become injurious and vexatious in operation , that it should not be regarded as permanent ; and that no safe opportunity should be omitted of relaxing it." These words the Right Hon. Gentleman did not read to the House ; and yet he told them that he should go freely into the whole question. Now, although the Right Hon. Gentleman selected a passage about the middle of the next page, in which the Governor-General stated, that feeling the extent and force of the difficulties, he could not indulge a hope, Sze. ; he did not go on to read the following word s: —" Th e i mpress i on to be taken from the evidence of the Hill Coolies who have re turned, is, I think, upon the whole most favourable; and it may be assumed, with regard to the Mauritius, that where there is prudence and good conduct, and an average share of good fortune, a Coolie may return, after a few years of labour in that colony, enriched and improved, and for the most part bringing with him the recollection of no great hard ship.' Were this system carried out, he believed that it would be of general advantage, and in the end many of the abuses which had been found to exist would work their own cure. "In this view, and under ordinary circumstances, and if the slave trade and slavery had never been, we might per haps approach the question of an open emigration with some hope of devising a principle which might be relied upon, and generally effective against abuse." Then the Right Hon. Gentleman quoted the passage speaking of the difficulty which attended open emigration, but he did not go on to read this passage :—" It will be for her Majesty's Government to decide whether distinctions as to the supply of labour can be admitted between the several Crown settlements. As respects the interests for which we are more especially responsible, I can say that j my objections are assuredly the strongest to dealings of this description with the colonies and settlements which are most distant." The sea passage from its very length, exposed them to suffering and hardship. " With Alauritius, however, the case is different. It is a British settlement easily accessible from India, and open to our observation ; and if the question were that of opening emigration to that island, I would will ingly attempt to meet the difficulty which might be opposed to us, and I should hope, shortly and gradually, in a very great measure to overcome them by a plan such as has been sug gested by Mr. Grant." The Governor-General stated that by the appointment of inspectors of emigration, and other means, they might do much towards preventing the oppression of it. Two or three years ago, there had been too much rea son to complain. "We could at the same time," said he, " always satisfy ourselves that the measures adopted in the Mauritius for the protection of the labourers when in the island, were operative and sufficient." The Governor- General came in the end to the conclusion that if the home Government were disposed to refuse their consent to a mare extended emigration, then at all events he would press upon them the necessity of repealing this most anomalous law. He appealed to the House whether the Right Hon. Gentleman had acted fairly in keeping back those passages ?—( Hear, hear.) Now, the other members of the Committee, Mr. ,Princep, Mr. Bird, and Mr. Amos, had all reported on the subject. Mr. Bird stated that upon the whole he objected to a relaxation of the present law ; but the House would observe that his objection to the relaxation rested, not upon the hard ships to which the labourers were exposed, but upon the ground of there being no superabundance of labour in India, and on the ground that in some places where persons had been anxious to obtain labourers they were not able to obtain them.—( Hear, hear.) But the other two gentlemen, Mr. Princep and Mr. Amos, expressed a decided opinion in favour of it. He saw nothing in either of their Reports to warrant the use to which the Bight Hon. Gentleman had applied them. The Bight Hon. Gentleman said that Mr. Amos was the echo of Mr. Princep. So far from that being the case, it appeared from his statement, that he arrived at his eonelusien on totally different grounds. But this fact stood recorded in a letter from the East India Company themselves, that whatever other difference there might be, these gentlemen were unani mously of opinion, that the existing prohibitory law could riot and ought not to be maintained : that the prohibition must be relaxed, though upon the mode of relaxing it they were not altogether agreed.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentle man had charged the Government with acting hastily in this matter, when in fact they were acting upon the authority of the Governor-General of India, the Governor of Mauritius, and the Board of Control in India, after a full consultation of the members.—( Hear, hear.) More over he would tell the Hon. Gentleman, though he must know it well, that there was no man more anxious for the early and speedy relaxation of this prohibitory law that the Noble Lord, under whom he served in the Colonial-office. lie must know, also, that almost the last dispatch, written by the direc tion of the Noble Lord, contained this passage :—" At the same time, his Lordship desires me to state, that he is strongly of opinion that the prohibition of the exportation of the Hill Coolies should be removed, with proper restrictions and provi giant for the health and return of the Hill Coolies.'' Now, they had enabled the Governor-General in Council to take those precautions, and unless he was satisfied upon that sub ject the emigration did not take place. They had taken those precautions which the Noble Lord directed to be carried into effect, with regard to emigration from Sierra Leone to the West Indies, aad which had been so effectual in preventing abuse, that not a single complaint had been heard. Under these circumstances he ventured to hope that the House would not think that the Government had dealt rashly and hastily with this question. They had provided, by every legislative enactment which they could devise, for the protection of the labourers; they had advised the Governor-General as to the best means experience pointed out as adapted for that purpose ; and they had further provided, that unless the precautions were carried into effect the emigration should not take place. With re spect to the clause of the insertion of which in the Act the Right Hon. Gentleman had complained, that clause was in troduced for this obvious reason: the Governor-Gereral had no power in the Mauritius of enforcing penalties for the vio lation of the Indian Act, and the clauses were inserted in order to provide for that difficulty. If the Right Hon. Gentleman thought proper to bring forward a motion condemning the conduct of her Majesty's Government in reference to this question, lie would be prepared to meet him upon it ; at present he would content himself with calling upon the House to negative this very insignificant motion. —( Cheers. ) NIL HAWES thought the Noble Lord had endea voured to evade the real question. If he had known that this general discussion was to take place on the whole subject of the emigration of Hill Coolies, he would have been prepared to meet the Noble Lord ; but he (Mr. H. ) was sure that when all the papers connected with the question had been fairly considered, he should be entitled to draw dif ferent conclusions from those which the Noble Lord founded on the despatch he had read from the Governor of the Mauritius. Ile (Mr. H. ) would content himself with saying that lie would not rely on the authorities of the Mauritius to treat. the Hill Coolies with justice and humanity. Ile recognized and admired the high character of Sir Lionel Smith, and remembered with gratitude and pleasure what that gallant officer had done for the coloured population while he was Governor of Jamaica. Not withstanding the disposition and ability of this Gallant Officer, lie (Mr. H.) still feared that no regulations made in behalf of the Hill Coolies, either here or in India, would be carried out by the authorities at the Mauritius. He (31r. II.) would ad vert to another despatch, in which, after describing the quar rels that took place between the Hill Coolies and their masters, the writer said that the former were of the lowest and most ignorant class in India, while the latter were " still mourning over the loss of their slaves." Those facts were sufficient to excite his apprehension; but when the clauses to which he particularly objected, came before the House, he would state his views upon the general question. He did not think that the immorality and sensuality mentioned in the despatch would be diminished by the plan of the Noble Lord. However, he ( Mr. H.) would not oppose the second reading of the Bill if the Noble Lord would agree t o fi x a dis tant day for the Committee, that he and other persons inter ested in this question might have an ample opportunity to dis cuss the objectionable clauses, and to take the sense of the house on them. He would only add that, however he differed from the Government on this measure, he believed they acted on the best motives. Lord STANLEY was understood to assent to the proposition, on condition that the second reading of the Bill should not be opposed, as he was anxious to proceed with the measure im-• mediatelv. Mr. HOGG was dissatisfied with the manner in which the subject had been treated that evening. His 'tight /fon. Friend avowed that lie introduced his motion for the sake of attacking her Majesty's Government, and between the vehe mence of the attack and the spirit of the defence, the attention of the House had been distautted from the real subject. To this, he (Mr. IL ); now proposed to direct. them. He must observe, that the conclusions of the Noble Lord were not borne out by his documents, nor bad he distinctly brought the case before them. The Noble Lord traced the proceedings of the House to the period when instructions were sent out by the Court of Directors to the Local Government, to prohibit the exportation of Hill Coolies. Previous to this time there had been a general outcry in India against the cruelties suffered by the emigrant Hill Coolies. A great meeting, was held at Calcutta, at, which merchants, bankers, military men, natives, in short, all classes joined in denouncing the conduct of the masters of the unfortunate Hill Coolies. At home the matter was brought before both Houses of Parliament. Lord Ellenborotigh, assisted by the Duke of Wellington, brought in a Bill in the House of Lords, but they had to give it up in despair, for as he (Mr. II.) told the Noble Lord, it was so clogged with con ditions and stipulations that it was impracticable, and that no emigration could take place under it. Then a petition from the Court of Directors was presented to Parliament. The result was that orders were sent to the Local Govern ment to prohibit the emigration of Hill Coolies. The Noble Lord, the late Secretary for the Colonies, stated that it was his intention to relax this state of things, and talked of a Bill and an Order in Council, but he shrank from the task, though by no means a timid politician. In the meantime the Court of Directo:s determined to take no steps in the matter while the question was before Parliament, and until Parliament had given its ()pinion thereon, showing a deference and respect to Parliament which the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire did not.—( Hear, hear.) Thus the matter had stood—so it stood now. When the subject was discussed before. his Right Hon. Friend said they ought to wait for the report expected from India. The report arrived on the very day he (Mr. H.) predicted it would come. Sic inc SClTarit Apollo —(Laughter)—and it coloured the atroci ties that. had taken place. Minutes from the Governor-Ge neral and Council also came. Sir Lionel Smith said the re port slid not deserve notice. If it were otherwise, he supposed the Noble Lord would have submitted the provisions he intended to enact to the Board of Control and the Court of Directors. Those proposed safeguards ought to have been submitted to the Court of Directors for their consideration. After consider ing the whole case, the Directors would have issued their instructions to the local authorities ; and those in structions, together with the proposed Order in Council, ought to have been laid on the table of the House by the Noble Lord, in order to enable the House to come to a conclusion on the subject.—( Cheers.) The House would then have had an op. portunity of hearing both sides ; but the Noble Lord, with ad mirable dexterity, had kept one side of the question eons pletely out of sight.—( Opposition cheers. ) There were 1 . 11(11*- mities committed in India as well as in the Mauritius, and as yet no one knew the law which it was intended to intr°a,ue4 on the subject i n I ndia. He (Mr. Hogg) was a NClrnr . of the Court of Directors, and he slid not k. low . wt" t were the regulati ons the Government propos e d t o inn odnee eon the subject .in India. — (Hear,. hear.) The N o bl e L o r d h 4 d proCeeded very well a+ tar as his own department w to :cot ,- cerned. The Order in Council would remedy the abu Sea ea - isting in the transportation of the . Coolies from India . to a a Mauritius, and would also remove the abuses complained 'of Ise existing in the Mauritius with regard to - the treatment of the% Coolies. But he (Mr. Hogg) wanted to know what meas'aree4 it Was proposed to adopt in ludia.—( Hear, hear.) T he lit : ought to know it. It ought to be laid on the table, and he . was not sure that the House ought not to require that the loral. , instructions of the Govertior ~ of India should be laid on the table before they proceeded to legislate on the Fit bje et. —Loud cheers.) He would not dwell at .: any length on the existence of the abuses in India, because existence of those abuses had been admitted. What h e wanted to know was the remedy which the Noble Lord pro posed for those abuses. The Noble Lord had talked a. great deal of the appointment of inspectors and protectors, hut on the would, tell the aauthority r o d f t hLaotrel all thes Auckl and, these inspectors lie;(Ah n . rl d o ' for nothing. The plan had been in full operation in Calcutta, ap g r g o were good ) tector? at the very time that those enormities were perpetrated, at the existence of which they had all been so much shocked.— ( Cheer's.) He was convinced that in such a country as India it was a vain attempt t o en d eavour to reme dy suc h a bu ses by such means. He w ou ld s h ow t h e H ouse t h a t th ere was th e . strongest ground for believing that those 15,000 or 16;000 Coolies who had been exported had been induced to go on ship board 13 , the grossest fraud.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Dowson, a Mauritius planter, had endeavoured to procure some Hill Coolies to emigrate, and fcr that purpose he had employed Mr. Caliput, an honest agent, to proceed up the country, anti had given him strict orders to explain to the Coolies precisely the terms upon which they were to be engaged—that they were to leave the country for five years, Mr. Caliput went, but his mission proved a fruitless one. Not a single Cooly would engage with him when be explained to them exactly the terms upon which they were to be engaged, and this was at a• time when they were engaging by hundreds with another agent who was employed by other planters in the same district.—(Hear, hear.) Could the House require a greater proof that gross fraud must have been practised upon these poor creatures ? (Hear, hear.) As .a confirmation of that assertion, he would mention the fact that the East India Company having established a toa plantation in Assam, and having thus proved that the tea plant could be successfully cul tivated in India, had given up the plantations Into the hands of private individuals. Those individuals had subsequently, applied to the Indian Government, stating that they should be, ruined for want of labourers, and beseeching the Government to send them assistance. The Indian Government sent an agent up into the neighbourhood of Nagpore to try and engage some Hilf Coolies to go to Assam. They were offered their expenses to As.. sam and back, and an allowance of three rupees a month ; and he begged to observe that in that country three rupees a month was equal to six or seven in the Mauritius. The agent of the Government found none of the Coolies willing to go. Several' of them inquired the place to which it was intended they should go, and they refused, saying they were unwilling to go to a country which had never been visited by any of their brethren, and expressing a fear that it was intended to send theta beyond the sea, and to subject them to the sanie horrora and sufferings as their brethren had undergone.—(Hear, hear.) An !o:her application was made, and Mr. Davis, who was employed on that occasion, r e p orte d that the Coolies were not willing to expatriate themselves—that they were extremely attached to their country, and that they had good reason to be so, for from the extreme cheapness of grain in the neighbourhood of N'agpore, no labouring population had such a command of the necessaries of life as the Coolies of Nagpore.—(Hear, hear,) A third attempt had been made to induce the Coolies to emigrate to Assam. and had beets equally unsuccessful —not one of them would go. That was strong evidence to show that the Coolies who had emigrated had not done so of their own free will—(Hear, hear.) If they conid con. voice him that those persons had emigrated of their own tree.will, he would not have the slightest objection to the plan of the alsible Lord ; but until he was so convinced, he should be exceedingly sorry to see the present law altered.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lotd had quoted, with a peat air of triumph, the opinion of the Gover. nor. General en the subject, as if it were in his favour; but he (Mi. Hogg) contended that the opinion of the Goverifor.General by no means bore out the Noble Lord.—(Hear, hear.) It was true that the Governor-General said that the home authorities pre. vented any general system of emigration ; but he also stated that he should he sorry to see the present law repealed, although he should be glad to see a relaxation of it with regard to parti. cular persons and places. The Governor-General, in that, alluded to cases of artisans in Calcutta contracting to execute buildings and works in the Mauritius, not to Hill Coolies. He was sure they could never legislate satisfactorily on the subject until they had entered into treaties with the European and Na. tive Powers on the coast.—(Hear, hear.) It this system of emigration were permitted, they would be virtually reviving the slave trade.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) They would take away from any moral influence the remoustrances might possess with other Powers on the subject of the slave trade, if they re. opened this system of emigration to the Mauritius.—(Cheers.) They had heard a great deal about the return of the Coolies, and of the extent of their comforts, &c., but this statement was made with reference to men who were sent back for the purpose of entrapping others.—(Opposition cheers.) Of the thousands of Coolies, there Were only `Xi of that number who had been examined. It might be said that he (Mr. Ilogg) had taken up very strong views against emigration at all, but he declared to the House that he had taken no view whatever upon the subject, except that which an imperative sense of duty urged him to take.—(Loud cheers.) Every man, whether influenced by duty, interest, or caprice, should have a right to go wherever he pleased ; it was imperative upon the State to see that those were protected who were not able to protect themselves. It was well to say protection had been extended to sixty or seventy Coolies, but what became of the thousands who were kidnapped ?—(Opposition cheers.) certain documents had been called for, which they were now told by the Government were not in existence. The only misfortune, with reference to the matter, was that the discussion of to-night only allowed Hon. Gentlemen to express their opinions, and nothing more could be done. Mr. 13110THERTON having moved that the House do adjourn, Lord STANLEY hoped that the House would not adjourn until some determination was arrived at. He trusted, however, that the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. V. Smith) would not press his motion for the production of a nonexisting document.—(Laughter tram the Opposition.) Mr. WAKLEY complained that no reference had been made by the Noble Lord (Stanley) to the treatment of the Coate women and children. Ile haul listened with much pleasure to the statements made by Mr. Hogg—statements which entitled him to the gratitude and thanks of that House mid of the public.—(Hear.) If the system adopted here were one of justice, that adopted to. wards the colonies in the Mauritius could not be just too. Since this matter had been last brought before the House, additional In. formation had been laid before them but that information was such as ought only to induce a further delay. The Honourable Member for Beverley had clearly pointed out that the additional information ought to make them pause before they carried out a system which he believed to be fraught with danger. Some most influential gentlemen waited last year on the Right Hon. Baronet, the First Lord of the Trea sury, relative to the existence of slavery in India, and it appeared that the /tight Hon. Baronet had previously considered Ile subject. He (Mi. Wekley) had seen those parties since, and theFhad anti. ciliated that some measure would have been brought forward on this subject. They considered it as an opprobrium on this country which haul done so much for the abolition of slavery generally, that it had done nothing to abolish slavery in India. He did hope that the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies would abandon the intention which he had expressed of still embracing the emigration of Hill Coolies to the Mauritius; and he further hoped, that the Noble Lord would present the House with all the information on the loather which had arrived at the Colonial-office before they went. farther. Then, the House, being in possession of that information, would be able to decide with much more confidence on the question. Mr. C. BUI.LEIt said he should support the Government men. sure, as a good, a wise, and a salutary measure.—(Hear, hear.) He had always thought that the fairest emigration should be at. lowed—all that was required was, in his miud, a regulation as to the mode in which that should be carried out, and he thought mea. sures sufficiently precautionary had been proposed by the Noble Lord' the late Secretary for the Colonies in the year 184 O. The Noble Lord proposed that precautions should be taken by the Governor. General of India to prevent fraud there, that similar precautions should be adopted in the Mauritius, and that the labourer should be at liberty to make whatever en. gagements he thought proper when he arrived at the Maurititt. He said that he agreed in the object of the Government, and he could not but express his gratification that the removal of one class of gentlemen from one side of the House, and the possession of their places by another, was followed, as it always sots., by removing the obstacles in the way of sound and practical measures. —(" Hear," and laughter.) He could not, however, agree to_ the manner in which the measure had been in. troduced, and he thought the Government were charge. able with want of due precaution. lie did not see why the Noble Lord should issue an Order in Council a few day? before the opening of Parliament, which could have no other effect than to unsettle men's minds,—(Hear.) It was an essentially medi. tative question, because the Noble Lord took four or five months • to collect and work, out ,his idea,' but he thought it extraordinary that the East Ind.i.‘Company.:wert not consulted on the measure, because, Without,their consent, it would be perf ec tly nugatory. The Noble ird had said lie could not grant papers which slid not exist. —(Hear.) However; whets the subject would be brought before ' Parliament, he could assure the Noble Lord of that hearty co.ope- : ration on his part which had been denied by Hon. Gentlemen Opp& site to the late Government.—(Cheers.) Lord STANLEY said, that the Hon. Gentleman ins mistaken' in supposing that he had had no communieatlim witht bef.East India Company. Ile had very frequent- communications with Lord Ellenborough when President .of the Board of 'Control ; and when he said that no instructions had been given, he ought to recollect that the motion was for the production of papers and despatches, which lie had no means of obtaining except through Lord Ellen.. borough. Mr. LINDESAY said that having come in a vessel front India, freighted with Hill Coolies, he could not reconcile to himself th* inducements that were held out to them to emigrate, but on' the • . other hand he did not see how they could be prevented Roth emigrating if they chose, and liked to get to the best market , for their labour.—(Hear, hear.) • • After afew words from Mr. C. nvi.LETI, Mr. BINGHAM BA. RI and Mr. Iloco, Mr. FOItIIES said that he entirely approved of a system of emigration to the Mauritius under proper regulations. Mr. V. SMITH replied. He rejoiced that the discussion had taken place, as it had elicited information of which (he House Was not in possession, and he augured ill for the measure from the ad. mission that the Noble Lord had not the co-operation of the East India Company, nor had given ally instructions to the Governor. General. As there were no instructions, therefore, he should withdraw his motion. LAW OF EVIDENCE. Mr. C. BULLER stated that he should not proceed with the Bill of which he bad given notice respeCting the law of evidence. Motion accordingly withdrawn. NAVIGATION OF THE NILE. Dr. BOWRING postponed his motion for Copies or Extracts of any Correspo»denee which has taken place at the Foreign Office, on the subject of a claim put forward by the British Consul at Alexandria, lot the right to navigate the internal waters of Egypt under the British Flag, till this day week. The Buildings Regulation Bill (No. `2!, and the Boroughs Int. provsmcnt llill (No. 2), were earls read a second time, and ordered to be committed. MARRIAGES (IRELAND) BILL. The Report on this Bin was brought up. CORN IMPORTATION ACT. The bringing up of the Report was fixed for this evening, The Apprentices Regulation Bill was read a third time and passed. The House then adjourned at One o'Clock. f r HOUSE OF LORDS, Marcie 1. The LOIID CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool sack shortly after Five u'Cloek. The Earl of ROSEBERY presented petitions from places in Stirling, Dumbarton, and Linlithgow, proving • - tor a total repeal of the Corn-laws. The Noble Larldis sented from the prayer of the petitioners, but expressed • an opinion that some alteration should be made in these. hiws. '4 •.I The Duke of RICHMOND presented a p e tition from . • - ing of c or n in t h e c i ty of London, stating the owners a n d occup i ers of 'mills engaged in the grind- sent duty on fl o u r did not aftiial them a suf f ic ient pre tection,; that they had hearil4ith regret,thata,naeaAnre was ahtni tti he introdneed to Ower that duty, and they tb a t the pre prayed their Lordships not to give their consent to the measure. ~ 4 / a ~ ; Y J. !;",) - ; 3-dft, , d , • ' , t G' .1