The Sun. — London, England, 1815-02-23 00:00:00

people at large remained much in the sane senti ment as they entertained last year, and this sen timent ivas again exressed by the innumerable petitions which crowded the table of the House. there was scarcely a large town in the kingdom which had not sent up its prayer that no altera tion.he made in the Corn LAWS. They had seen no other alteratiOn take place, in consequence of the labours of the . Committee, hut an increase in the price of bresid ; .and thongh it had been said, that those who were guided by reason, rather than by feeling, were generally right, he. was of :aft opinion directly the contrary; . forin whatever related to the. subsistence of human life, those who were guided by feeling: were sure to have rea son -on their side. Thellouse being composed of the great. body of landholders in the kingdom, and the representatives of the people, must come to ,the discussion With feelings of another kind.— He did not mean to say, that there would he any . bias on their minds on this account, but only that having an interest in the laud, their feelings.. eauoot be expected to be. the same as those of the . po ; 'dace at large, who subsist on the produce of the land. It appeared a most extraordinary part Of the regulation, that the House was called on to prevent the importation of Corn into the country fur - three mouths ; and that there was still to he an . i,importation going on under the warehousing sys tem. Bit the time to which it was-proposed to allow the importation to extend to at certain periods, could not possibly answer the.porpose, as it would . he impossible to import Corn to the manufactur ing parts of the kingdom, as far as the Clyde and the Mersey, therefore a longer time became ne cessary to enable them in those parts - to obtain a supply. As Corn is a very perishable commodity, be conceived that us hen it is imported into this Country, to be kept in warehouses till the price attain a certain height, there must he some pro -1 iic,u ma'de fur the importer, as .other wise sustain a dead loss upon.his•property. Un lesS sonic clause were introduced to this effect, The consequence would be most serious, and no persons would be induced to import. But this Might be said to be only one of the - of the subject. On the principal point, it would, in his opinion, be most judicious in Government to re duce the importation price to 725. which would a sufficient protection to the farmer: The' first consideration should he the •interest of the consumer. The main body of the peo ple are the consumers, and riot the - growers. It was justly observed by Adam Smith, that the questions which must always be acquiesced'in are those which relate to religious opinions and the necessaries of life. He was confident that the price now proposed was laid too high. It was impossible that the importation of Fo nip Corn could produce the injury described ; for it had been admitted and proved that the whole annual quantity did not exceed one-fortieth part of the consumption, it was impossible that .this one part could affect the price of the 39, though that of the latter might affect the price of the one part. There were, certe.ittly, some c muses which bad operated of late, to affect !lie quantity con sumed; one of these was the return of the great number of prisoners of war, who amounted to about 100,000. This must have had some effect. .i.uothet cause was, the number of persons who bad gone front this dountry to visit the Conti nent, and who might amount to 50 or 60,000. The- combined effect produced by this change must have produced more effect .than had been coun teracted by the importation of foreign Corn. If this is the case, we ate 'likely •to have bread cheaper ; and if encouragement is . .given to the landed interest to continue the . price at 80s: it could not be expected that they would make any great reduction in their rents. 'He thought that this was no more aline to settle the price of bread or rent, than to settle what should be the ex pellees of the Peace Establishment, which the Bight Hon. Gentleman Opposite had said could not be, ascertained for tour or five years to come. (No, no, from the Ministerial bench.) He was firmly of opinion, that before the House should separate for the Summer recess, the price of bread, which we are now eating. -at nearly a shilling, xvould be nearer to 18d. than to that price. He wished the House would agree to go into a Com taittee on the subject, wherein clause by clause might he discussed. Mr. ROSE would advise the House against go ing into a Committee. The matter had already been under consideration two or three different times. A Committee had sat, and made a Report, 'and the Hon. Gentleman now says the House must shut their ears agahist its contents. He was ;is anxious a friend to the price of Corn being as low as possible, as any man could be, and this too, without such low price being injulions to tie grower: and for this mason he wishes for a full and free discussion. Col. GORE LANGTON said, that being conscious of the rectitude of his intention:, lie would divide the /louse upon the question of the Speaker leav ing the Chair. Mr. CALCRAFT was of opinion that discussion would afford the best n►ode of placing the subject in its proper light. Mr. PROTtiRROE thought that instead of the Hon. Member opposing the Speaker leaving the Chair, the properest step would have been to op pose the going into the Committee. It was now unfair to oppose the discussion. Mr. WHITBREAD said, that the Hon. Member behind. him (Colonel _Langton) had put the busi ness upon a footing to which it was impossible for hint to accede. It was unfair to the House and the Palk, that the i-lon. Member should take this step, which would make a false impres s'on abroad, and induce many Members to vote contrary to the way in which they would, after hearing all the arguments which could be ad duced. Ile trusted, however, that the Hon. Mcmber was not inexorable. Mr. PHILLIPS Said a few words against the di- Mr. ITOEINER spo!;e briefly to the , same effect. lie had coine down with the sincerest anxiety to bear the discussion that was due to the importance of the subject, to hear whatever could he said upon o great a question.—The House then divided, For the Motion of Mr. Gore Langton Against it Majority ----191 nsittee.—Mr. BARING rose. Mr. ROBINSON thoua , ht, as the three first Pe solittious were not objected to; it might perhaps be as well to tia.ss them at once, and take the dis cussion,. foiirths on' the general question wh e n they came to thic Mr. BARING said, his observations would he - founded on'the fourth Resolution, whiclebrought the whole subject before the House, The three first Resolutions were then read and - agreed to —On the fourth Resohititia., winch fixes the price at which \Vheat shall be ifitooTted , • Mr. Ross and Mr. BAniNG 'offered to .address the Committee.—The Chairman named - Mrßosts. Mr. 11 7 -nITBREAD reminded the Chairman that the Hun. Gentleman (Mr. Baring) having risen to .speak before the Right Hon. Gentleman pro- IRAed . .to pass•his'three first Resolutions, regarded as: haYing possession of the Com mittee, • - Mr. hose. denied that- the Hon. Gentleman had been in possession of the Committee. He had offered himself thus early, in consequence - of his having' been called on ,by the .Hon. Gentleman (Air. Baring) on a fosnier day. Ile was very willing to give way to him, as he had no wish to • trespass on the Committee before they were per fectly at leisure to hear • Mr. BARING would have been nappy to give way to the Blight lion. Gentleman, but that he had an intention of moving certain amendments on the Resolutions, which he wished to submit to the Conitnittee s at the commencement of the discussion. At the same time, had he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman would have taken upou himself this tesk , with.the sante ability which he had tlisp;ayed last Year, he should have been most willing to resign it to him. This, however, was that which he , could . not hope. Fle had been very much disappointed on the former day by the little part which the Ri s ,!:t Hon. Gentleman had taken in the proceelings, and this circutnstance, corn billed with the reports which lie had before stated to have reached him, had made arPl'ehei)sive that tie had changed his opinion with respect to the Corn Laws. Had he known there was so strong a feeling in the House hi- favour of the view he (Mr. Baring) took at the subject, as had been ac cidentally manifested, lie dui not know lint he should have abstained from putting himself forviard . on this occasion, in. the hope that the business %e u.(l fall into abler hands. He was glad.to see. that feeling to - which.he had referred more general than he had expected it would be, and he hoped the numerous eetitions which had been, presented in the last Session against the propused alteration would not have been presented in vain. Foe him self, his opinions were not at all altered from what he had stated them to be in the last Session, anti in the Session before the last. He bad seen nothing that ought to induce the -House at all to alter their conduct with respect to the Corn Trade, on the general principle, though certainly there was a derangement of the labour and of the agri culture of the country to be observed which called for a remedy. In cases of great commercial dis tress, though it was not consistent with the prin ciples which usually regulated the conduct of Para liament to vote an issue of Exstliequer Bills, to furnish the means oficarrying on trade, yet this had been done in some instances, as it was thought such assistance would break the tall to be appre hended, and considerably tend to remove the tem- • porary difficulties under which our continence la boured. Something of this sort, it appeared to him, might now be done, without injury to the public, and without abandoning those principles from which he would be the last man to advise that house to depart. To the measure now pro posed for the relief of the landed interest he had very strong objections. Notwithstanding a feel ing more favourable to his views titan he was pre pared to expect had been manifested, he still feared there was in the minds of a majority in that 'rouse a strong disposition to pass the measure now sub mitted to them in its present state.• Under this apprehension he should proceed to communicate • to the Committee the view he took of the minutes of the case. After a long war, the return of peace had caused that confusion and derangement in the agriculture of the country, which might have been expected. . The price of the produce, and, of course, the value of land, must be affected by such a change'; and it was natural that those • who 'suffered front it should come to Parlia ment to seek redress. The question now was, whether the Committee could or ought, on con sidering: the case of these persons, to infringe every principle by which the commerce of the country had heretofore been regulated, by giving them an immediate abstraction of the Corn Lass s. To do this was to do no less than to give them leave, by keeping up their rents, and the- value of their laud, to continue at a high rate the prices of labour and of food. He wished it to be con. sidered to what extent the landed interest was al. ready protected at the expense of the•constsmer s and closely to look at what they were called upoit further to do. For this purpose be would sub mit to them a few short estimates. Taking the population of England, Scotland, and Wales, at 12,500,000 souls, and assuming the annual average consumption of each person to he one quarter of wheat in bread, and supposing halt as much more to be consumed in Beer and Spirits, &c. Suppos ing this average to be correct, and that there were no Corn Laws at all to prevent importation, it would be found, from the prices which that com modity had borne in other countries from whom we derived a supply, that in England the average price of a number of years would have- been 455. per quart er . I n F rance and Flanders, the price on taking the average of a number of years, it would be seen had been 40s. the quarter. Al lowing ss, per quarter for the transtnission of it to this country, its price here must have been, as' he had before stated, about 455. per quarter; for under such a system, the price of Corn, in a ma ritime country like this, must be about the ave rage of all other countries. This would have been the state of the case had that situation of thing's existed whi c h h e h a d supposed. The Corn Law;, however, had excluded foreign grain, when the price of wheat did not exceed 655. the quarter ; making a difference of 20s. in the quarter in fa your of the agriculturist. .It would hencebe seen, that an annual bounty had been paid by a pop - u- ' of twelve millio ns an d a h a lf to the Cora 12,500,0001. in the Bread and Flour", which they consumed. Add to this half as much More for the Corn consuined in Beer and Spirits, _and 6,250,000/. must be put to the 12,500,0001. mak ing the total bounty paid by die consumers of Corn to the landed interest in a year, cot less than 18,750,000/. This was an advantage not enjoyed_ hy .. the janded interest in any other part of the .world.. Now .it was proposed to raise the price at which the importation of Foreign Corn should be prohibited, to eighty shillings ; and doing- this, au annual additional bount.y..of 14,000,000/.. was reqnired of the cow.. sumer. This, if acceded to, - Would raise the hOunty paid.for the protection of the handed in terest to 32,7.50,0001. As'lle• did not wish to s . ay any thing that could be considered as art all in flammatory, he wished it be understood that' he did not take'llpon himself to say; that so much went from the people into the pockets . of those :by whom their food oral grown, ,but .he , reserved to himself to consider if. it, were .necessary that any - part of _this should In making his calculation he had rather 'undervalued the surirpaid. by the .consumer.. If a calculation were 'maim in another way, on the rent paid on all the cultivable land, the. result would .be similar, 'and it worild lie impossible not to see that an immense bounty was given in this country to the agricul turist, which the agriculturist of no other cotu:try in the world was .supposed to be entitled to. 1 n France there were certainly persons possessed of great landed property.- They cultivated it and lived on it with that sort of hospitality which formerly was seen in England, but it was only in this country that the proprietor of-- landed pro perty could securely leave his farms, receive their produce and go abroad to spend it elsewhere. On the subject of the additional bounty proposed to be given he wished to address the Committee in particular. Notwithstanding he admitted distress to exist which called fora remedy,he was decidedlyof opinion that protection might be extended too far. It n ight be carried to a point which would be de structive to the manufactures of the , country front the incre as i ng p r i ce o f l a bo ur , consequent on that protection. They ought, therefore, to proceed with cautionary steps, and consider well the consequences of what they were doing, or their _proceedings might cause incalculable mis chief. He considered it would be a waste of time to comment on certain ingenious, but whimsical statements, which had been made in the evidence given in another 'place. He could not conceive that ill that House there could be any understand ing so constructed _.as. to require to be convinced that the price of labour might be effected by the price of subsistence. He would assume this to be conceded. The resolutions if carried would not fail to augment the price of Corn and Bread, and those of labour must he raised in progression. An Hon. Friend of his, who had spoken in favour of them, had declared lie would not support them if he considered thent likely to cause bread to be sold at a high price ; he, on.the contrary, was in favour of them. as he was Confident their effect would be to make it cheaper. Hebeheved the Hon. Gentleman to be sincere ; but be could nut coin prebend the course of his understanding, when it led him to look for such an effect from the mea sure in contemplation. The petitioners for a change in the Corn Laws declared if the importa tion prices of Corn was not raised to 80s. they could not live, and must throw up their lands.— If the effect of the change should be that antici pated by his Hon. Friend, they must all be starved ; for now their complaint was, that its.price was so low that 'foreigners could undersell them in the market ; and unless protected against them by the , Legislature, they must be ruined. If the change, then, should cause - the price of Bread to be lower ed, the farmers would be thrown out altogether, they must give up their farms, and the conse quence would be, ,that situation. of things which they were so fond of bringing forward to the alteration which they desired. Agriculture would be given up, and we nitist then depend on foreign ers for a supply of Corn, and take it at their price. It was impossible Bread could be cheap if the Re solutions were adopted. The argument of those who supported them would be consistent if they were to say; these will ensure you a steady supply, but you must/ pay for it, and it is better to pay a good price for your bread at once, than to be dependent on foreigners for the supply of an article of such primary importance. This he could comprehend, but that a measure brought in to give relief to those who could not live unless corn were sold at a higher price, would make bread cheap, was that which he could not understand. What was the case of this country ? It was that of a country which consumed more than it could grow, and which Must therefore have its prices regulated by the charges on that portion of its supply which - it derived frotn foreign countries. But it would be said, if these Resolutions were adopted, a suffi cient supply would be raised at home. • This, however, by the arguments of the supporters of the Resolutions, could not be, if the effect of them was to make the price of Corn low. Of what use could it be that this Measure caused barren lands to he turned into corn fields, if the low price of Corn was immediately to throw them out of cultivation ? He called upon the Com mittee to look at the returns which had been made at various •periods, and it would be found that in England—an importing coon try, the price "of grain had ever followed that which was named as a protecting price.— For five years before the year 1764, the ave rage price of Wheat had been 11.10 s. 7d. the quar ter, and an alteration was made in the importing price in that year, and the consequence was the average price in the five following years rose to 2/. 35., From 1701 to 1764, no considerable al t , teraiion had taken place in the price of Corn, Par liament having left it to itself, it had fluctuated according to the harvests in the different years, but not greatly. No material advance took place within the long period of 65 years, but in 1764, an alteration was made in the law, and its price was, in consequence, raised from 11. 10s. to 2/. 3s. th e quarter. From 1764 to 1794, no change of any importance was made in the Corn Laws, and the price of Corn was not increased, to any - considerable am ou nt. I n t h e fiif at all, years,ve endin g in 1794, the average price Was 21; 7s. the quarter. An alteration Was made J • re the average price was- 31. 9s. lie thought the was no doubt, that raising the importat i , °ll , price 9f Corn would i nvar i a bly ra i se the Pr`c of Corn and Bread. This he found on an spection of our imports and exports at different periods of our history. The great demand for Corn unquestionably arose from the increased poi inflation of the country, and from the military es tablishments, &c. which had been formed in the course of the war. While we were a great i lr1 „: porting country - our -prices had been low. . 1-1 knew that it bad. been asserted the prices qt C° 1 : 11 were low, when the importing price was 1411- A garbled abstract of the . returns at certain Pe riods might seem to prove this, but .be had littl e faith in the state me nt.. H e did' n o t b e li e ve the 1 importations of Corn injured the interests of agri - ; culture. Within the last 20 years, England had imported more over her exports, than ever sit e had done before a t an y'p er i o d upon recor d. IC was admitted such-great improvements in agrical tufe had never been made before, as had been made in this country within the last twenty Yea"' No Gentleman could go through the countrY without being constrained to admit that its Agri culture was in a flourishing condition, and to this it had risen during this season of importation This fact dispi•oved the arguments of the supporters of the Resolutions, and proved the increased de" mand for Corn which rendered a supply :necessarY: was caused by our increasing population, and did no injury to our agriculture at home. .But th .e fashionable arguthent seemed to be the ,great va" Joe of independence —th a t we ought to be hide" pendent of foreign countries for a supply of Corn , was that which the agriculturists wished to ests; blish. That by k ee pi ng out a ll f ore i gn C orn , an" by cultivating all sorts of land at whatever el." pence, we might procure an independent supl)lY' was that which could hardly be doubted; .but au," thing could be more absurd than for any delibc". rative body to decide on such a measure, as Which would be beneficial to their country. fit)' dependence in any thing would always be dear t° Englishmen, but that we should raise Corn on lands which were very good for other purposes , but good , ',for little f or C orn , whe n we 'nigh procure it at a much cheaper rate from oi l f neighbours, was a measure which he could not admire, though it was coupled with a Dui' thou of independence. What if the people '0 Norway and of Malta should, in the same waY' resolve to be independent, and scratch their bar': ren rocks. and sands to sow corn, instead of vs'Pr h : i . lug their mines, c arr yi ng on their fisheries, an d forwarding their manufactures, by which thei r might obtain with ease, ten times over, th e greatest supply their agriculture could ever far' nish. From M a l ta t h e y m i g h t sa il to E g ypt f ° l soil to spread ove r th e i r r ock s , t o rece i ve t h e see"; but what - would b e th e resu l t I Th e cons equenc4- of adopting such a s y stem o f po li cy wou ld b e this ---they would no , : h e a bl e to ra i se corn f or the population ; but they would cut down their poP u t i lation to their c orn . Th ey wou ld not cut t h e 11e . to the man, b u t. th e li m b s o f t h e man to t h e beat The soil of Scotland was bad in many parts f° g , the growth of corn ; but if she were separated, i s, formerly, from E ng l an d, an d d eterm i ne d t o u' o independent, declare no one should go there at e did not take hi s b rea d, w h at b ut m i sery could t 0 the consequen ce o f suc h a reso l ut i on, to attempt t? do that which nature had never intended her to ' lll O . The soil ofEngland was muc h worse f or the gro w ot corn than much of the land on the C uri e tinent. Bad h arvests i n t hi s country were rou'd frequent, yet to cultivate barren lands, it seelne it a new 'Syst e m w as to b e acte d upon, whiffh threatened to destroy all the sources of our tvea l : l , and power. H e did not say that th e fift e en 51° Bugs, propos e d t o b e a dd e d to t h e present imnP"li, i . tation price, would produce such an e ff ec t, bu t the plan were persevered in, that might be sacr l ficed, the l oss o f w hi c h wou ld b e most injuricilis. to the count r y. I t m i g h t never b e got back again, and our present advantages might be I°st in the same way as they were formerly gained , I v doubted not much more bad land could be bronl , i into cultivati on , if 80 s . were t h e protecting Pri("ii;. than if it was fixed at 70s. and still more 1 01 f ce. be done in this w a y, if, i nstea d o f 80 s. the price were fixed at 90s. or 100 s. ; but the q ues tion ` 935 ; 35 : would it be wise t o - wait the success of this e e - pensive experiment, an d te ll t h e peop le in tat meantime, that they should eat no bread but W 1 ,, j 1 1 was grown in the coun t r y ? N ot on l y wou ld t' ds measure be the me ans o f bri ng i ng poor lari ty into cultivati o n, b ut o f i mprov i ng t h ose alre3;t, , cultivated. One of the witnesses bad said th l i le in consequen ce o f time low price of Corn , could no longer use the hand-hoe in colt ivatingl y , fields. lie (Mr. B a rin g ) un d erstoo d o 'o while price was no object, the cultivator e u afford to hand-hoe, or hand-rake, his land V orf t to make it a perfe c t gar d en ; b ut h e could auoo, to do this no longer when, from competi ti o t Corn had beco me c h eap . H e did not see toe such improve me nt s were t h ose w hi c h t h at 0° Ji • ought to encourage at time public expense . . t i, this were done the re m i g ht b e co en d to t he 3 ficial improvem en t s made in agriculture, and the might possibly soon hear of a large water fla t nes s ing constructed t o be u se d i n d ry weat h er . '-i - L t ba niceties were not wanted. They might suit aa taste of some of the Corn growers, but they . „10 not answer the p ur p ose o f t h e consumers. enconragement giv.en to the landed interest in fo > end would h a v e t h e e ff ect o f d estroy i ng the „as nufacturing interest, aria then the Corn n'r°" 04 would be comp e ll e d to export t h e i r C orn, a n" of that great deside ra tu m i n t h e i r eyes the ina- i jo , en , this country an exp ort i ng country wou ld be g'l*.fica To raise Corn in consequence of the high r 11; to be ,paid for it, immense pastures w" uld i a; ploughed up, muc h wood would be grub' be: o - 1. 1). land would be ar tifi c i a lly prepare d f or t he gi 00 g of Corn for whi c h it cou ld never b e fi t , and b; raisin , of whi c h it s owners cou ld never o tt appropriating it, but for time bounty offered use that commodity. F or. thi s reason b e mu st cry)t lre giving any bo u nty i n a ddi t i on ' to t h a t q iarge# given, as most injurious to the country at d' and not less rightly cons id era bl e to the la holders than to the other members of th e re in' immunity, as they as much a s an y ot h e rs, w e Or terested in promoting- the public good._ S a to O f posing the Ho u s e a t tac h e d no importance .0 0 reasoning, still would he con t en d the preterls' 0