The Sun. — London, England, 1849-05-09 00:00:00

often deprived ourselves of a number of taloa voyages. In our anxiety to grasp everything for ourselves we raade (very one else, including our own colonies, so un enmfortab!e as to drive them to the necessity of adopting measures of counteraction and resistance against us, if we did not pave the way to more overt acts of hostility; acid instead of appropriating to ourselves the resources Of all other cauntries, we created a host of artificial diffi culties, end succeeded in rendering the ccean more hos tile even than the ancient poets had described it (Rear, hear,) It had been said that the navigation-laws succeeded in making the mercautile marine a nursery for the royal navy, and that the modern system of steam navigation required a larger number of hands to be trained. But he thought it would be found that the navy did not draw so large a proportion of the hands it employed from the mercantile marine. If, however, they were to rely on deriving considerable assistance from the mercantile navy, he thought there was little fear of the result when he found the increase of British seamen from 1823 to 1847 had been from 165,000 to 252 ,000—(11ear, hear) —and when he found that, iu British ships, the tonnage had increased 10 per cent. With these facts before him, he could not but entertain a very confident hope that we might still rely upon ob taining an adequate number of men trom our mercantile Marine towards the manning of our national navy. It had been said that there was a disposition in the mer cantile marine not to take an adequate number of ap prentices; but so far from that being the case, there were 10,000 more apprentices in the mercantile navy than Were required by the provisions of the navigation-laws. (Clear, hear.) Then it was contended that it was im possible for British shipowners to compete with foreign shipowners; but upon many grounds he must dispute that proposition. If they considered the strength and durability of British ships as compared either with the well-constructed ships of the United States, or the more cheap, but less enduring ships of Russia and the powers of northern Europe, he thought, whichever side of the 'comparison they took, they would find that the British shipowner did not suffer any material disadvantage, not withstanding the greater expense of construction. Several gentlemen who had been examined before the Committee had proved this fact. " Mr. Winter, of America, was asked, In what re spect should you consider that a ship can be built cheaper in America than in England; where would be the saving?—The only item in shipbuilding which, to my knowledge, is cheaper in America than in England, is wood, and this, for ships built in New York, has to bear heavy transportation, much of the timber being brought by sea from Virginia and Florida, and the plank from Lake Erie, a distance of 500 miles. The iron is imported from England, and pays a duty of 305., besides the expense of importation. Copper is also much higher than in England, and wages are nearly double.' " Mr. Graham, the secretary of Lloyd's, says—' The first-class British ships are the best ships in the world, and are superior to American ships.' " Captain Briggs states that such ships as he has spoken of, costing 20/. per ton, Would not stand A 1 for twelve years. The Americans have no ships that Would stand A 1 for twelve years in this country.' " ' A ship could be built in England quite as cheaply as in America, and an English ship always stands longer .than an American ship.' " You can build a twelve years' ship in England, and fit her entirely for sea, as cheaply as you can build an American ship of ten years: " As to the North, it was said— " A Hamburgh vessel, from 200 to 500 tons, iron fastened and coppered, costs, ready for sea, about 11/. a ton. Sho stands seven years Al, and no more. The English ship costs 201. a ton, stands twelve years A 1, and four years more, making sixteen years. The Ilarn burgh ship, therefore, stands nine years less on the first letter than the English ship. We deduct, as before, 1/. a ton for each year, and we find the English arid the Hamburgh ship are the same cost. We have yet to con , sider the expense of navigation. "It is, therefore, fair to assume that the English ves sel, as far as regards its durability, is worth, as corn- Pared with the colonial vessel, in the proportion of 22 : to 7." . _ ." If any ofeer proof be wanted that foreigners have • no advantage over England in the build and navigation of ships, we have it in the fact that when the shipping trade is depressed, and freights non-remunerative, the British shipowner is not ' the first ' to let his ship lie rotting in harbour, and the sailors fill the workhouse. The contrary is notoriously the tact. In those years of depression the foreigner is the first to lay up his vessel." "The Parliamentary returns prove, beyond all manner of doubt, that on every recurrence of distress in,shipping there is a great compitrative decrease of foreign and a corresponding increase of British vessels employed in the foreign trade." Did not this stand to reason, in addition to the assertions .of competent well-informed men, when they considered the resources from which shipbuilding was supplied ? We furnished the iron, we manufactured their chains, we furnished their sheet copper, their sails and cordage, upon all of which articles they had to pay duty, while we only had to pay duty on our timber; and it was stated by competent witnesses that the British shipbuilder had only to pay duty at the rate of 3e. fid. per ton, having teo at our command the best timber in the world. Th e attention of their Lordships had been called to the in crease of steam navigation, and he would ask what nation could fit out steam-vessels as we could ? It might be confidently asserted that in no class of shipping, and least of all in steam and iron built • vessels, could this country be said to stand on a dis advantage with any other country in the world.—(Hear, hear.) And when we had swept away the last imperfect remains of protection which we still retained under the navigation-laws, we should be in a still prouder posi tion. And he could not but think that his Noble Friend the President of the Council had met with unjust censure, when be was reproached fur having spoken of the existing navigation 'laws as shreds and patches. Why, what were the terms in which the former advo cates of monopoly—the most obstinate adherents to the navigation-laws—spoke of those laws since the passing of the reciprocity treaties? Mr. Young said that the protection was so inadequate where these treaties of re ciprocity existed that it could scarcely be called protec tion at all.—(Hear, hear.) But he was not without hope that the final and complete removal of monopoly in these matters would have the effect which almost invariably attended similar branches of industry and employment —that it would stimulate exertion and lead the way to improved methods and more economical modes of manegement. He disclaimed the invidious task of exa mining the short-comings and defects of our mercantile marine; but it would be unwise to Fide ourselves too much on its efficiency and perfection, because he feared there was mu .h connected with the seamen, the sani tary state of the ships, and the qualification of masters, that loudly called for amendment. The Noble and Learned Lord had alluded to a work entitled " Two Years before the Mast," and he had heard opinions expressed on this subject by the author of that work. He had not long made his acquaintance with out knowing that any opinion w hich he received from him, if liable to mistake, would have been sincere and straightforward. Mr. Dana had had long experience in observing vessels in the Bay of St. Francisco, and he said he thought the British sailor was a more thorough sea creature than their own American seamen—that in fact he was the best seaman in the world; but with re spect to the masters of merchant vessels, lie thought the American captains were better educated, more generally accomplished, and better instructed in those specific branches of acquirement most necessary for them.— (Hear, hoar.) The American ships compete with the cheapest built ships in the world; we could, with regard to strength and durability, build ships as cheap, and beat the American ships in the ports of the United States. That country, which could always present the largest number of ships, and offer the lowest rate of freight, must in the end secure the great proportion of the carry ing trade of the world.—(Hear, hear.) This was what gave their envied ascendancy to the Dutch. Low rates of freight would do for the traffic of the ships of the sea what low rates of travelling did on shore, they would create traffic where none appeared to have been wanting before they would suggest wants which bad no: been telt before; and not content with suggesting, they would satisfy them.—(Hear, hear.) S o that, consider ing that the repeal of the navigation laws would confer advantages on the foreigners, it they liked—assuming ' that in some particul a r p o i n t s we s h ou ld b e p l aced on terms of disadvantage with reference to them, and that sharp competition would ensue, yet, believing in the im pulse always given to trade when restraint was lessened, and believing in the rebounding elasticity of British trade to meet all rivalry, he could not doubt that we should secure by far the largest proportion of the mercantile traffic of the world.—(Cheers.) He could believe that a system of exclusion and monopoly such as our naviga lion code might have appeared plausible when our power was confined within narrower limits—but now, when there was no section or region of the world in which we had not visited the shores and occupied the seas from the Cape to Oregon, from Newfoundland to New Zealand, every obstacle, every impediment, was multi. plied ten-fold with regard to our own shipping, that of , our colonies, and all the countries with which we bad any communication.—(Hear, hear.) By our own prowess, and enterprise and activity , we had so dotted the globe, that to interrupt our traffic between our c olonies and the rest of the world would be to make our legislation to an extent which it had never been before, a universal Nuisance.—(Hear, hear.) He had endeavoured to lay the chief stress on the advantages which a relaxation of . the navigation-laws would confer on our commerce; but he was not blind to the colonial part of the question, as that which most immediately pressed on the attention of the Legislature. The way in which be regarded and explained the indisposition of the mercantile body to any snob changes as the present was, that he had gener all y o bserved when men of particular occupations and pur suits had been long addicted to them, and had acquired ,T 1 intimat e k now l e d ge o f th e i n t r i cac i es a nd difficulties by which these pursuits were surrounded, they were • averse to measures which tended to throw open their Pursuits to all the world, and became strongly disposed to retain all the difficulties which they were accustomed to. He must say that he believed if a royal road to geometry could be discovered, that discovery would be opposed by geometricians from a re luctance to see their favourite pursuit thrown op en to all th e wor ld. Th an ki ng their Lordships for the Patient attention with which they had listened to him, he would only further remark that whilst he antici pated the gr ea t est b ene fi ts f rom t h e a b o li t i on of the navigation-laws, by f a cilit a ti ng th e i ntercourse o f t h e nations of the world, a nd by th e enr i c h ment of t hi s with harmless wealth ; wealth whi c h th e N o bl e opposite had last evening denounced, hut which was unobjectionable when acquired by peaceful modes, still he dietions could h not listen quietly to that Noble Earl's pre .at the acquirement of wealth by the ate ileion °I the nevi th e eav 'lgation-laws would be attended with injury to eur nmer 4 c L i Power of England, with a deterioration of her te rests. n :_arine, and with danger to her national in °Pinions ; ;id e could bring himeeli to entertain such did not on the contrary think that the 14 S VS N. very opposite of all these predictions would result from the measure before the Houee he should be the last , man amongst their Lordships to propose or support it. He trusted that he had placed a just estimete on the naval pewer of Great lernain, as well as on her mercantile merino, rod that he was as alive as aoy or their Lord:l,ipe to the vast importance of maintaining in full vigour the national fleets, which at the moment when " Rule Britannia" had been sung in the 'streets of Paris were not likely to be abandoned to decay. But he did not anticipate any ie • jury to the efficiency of the British navy from the pre sent measure. Neither did he apprehend any danger to the national defences from its fe coming law. On the contrary, it was that, in his opinion, the effect of the measure would give increased employment to seamen, and infuse invigoration into the trade, manufactures, and commerce of Great Britain, that he supported it; and it was by instituting new rewards for the industry of the community, and by developing the resources of employ ment fur shipping, that the best guarantees would be ' found for the permanence of the national defences— defences which had hitherto been sufficient to render England the mistress of the seas, end by the blessing of God would long continue to maintain her in that posi tione--(C beers.) Earl NELSON could not help expressing his surprise that the Noble Marquis who brought the Bill forward should have looked with disdain on the expression of the public opinion and at the petitions which had been pre sented against the Bill. For his own part lie believed that the opposition shown to the Bill out of doors had been elicited by a very general apprehension as to ins effects upon the naval power of Great Britain. As to the retaliatory clauses which the Bill contained, they could never be enforced, and the first step after it be came law, would be to repeal those clauses. He would now advert to the opinions held by a person whose me mory had been brought to their Lordship's recollection by the Noble Earl opposite, who had connected the battle of Trafalgar with the cause of the success which had subsequently to that victory attended the British mercantile marine. He must assert that the distin guished man whose name he had the honour to bear, and whose memory deserved to be revered in that place —(Hear)—entertained opinions on the subject of the navigation-laws which well merited their Lordships' at tention. Although Lord Nelson had been dead many years his memory was not forgotten, and although the navigation laws had since he lived undergone great changes, still the principle remaked the same as in his day. He could not forget that Lord Nelson disobeyed orders and subjected himself to trial by court-martial in his determination to maintain the spirit of the naviga tion-laws in the West Indies. He pursued the same line of policy at Copenhagen, and he had manifested the deepest anxiety to spare the bloodshed which had oc curred at that city, in which he might have succeeded, could he have got his Beet away in time from Yarmouth Roads. Lord Nelson would never have been able to make good the national defences of England in the year 1801 had not the navigation-laws existed; for where could he have found sailors, or whence would England have procured her commercial navy, but by means of these laws? It was all very well to talk of peaceful ar bitrations; but, even supposing all the nations of Europe greed to resort to that mode of settling disputes, what security was there that some master spirit should not rise up and force on a war, and how could the British nation be sate if she had not a naval farce? Before he sat down he would call upon the Right Rev. Bench to resist the present Bill, because he saw in it the sure sources of en increase in the slave-trade. He called upon such of their Lordships as were free traders, to re sist it, because it was an imperfect measure, and must soon be amended. He called upon all who had the in terest of their country at heart to oppose the measure, and to trust to the experience of the past, rather than to the vague promises which were founded on imprac- ticable and unsound theories. Earl BRUCE said that there never had been a mea sure which he had a more perfect conviction was a right one than the present. If he thought the Bill would impair the naval efficiency of the United Kingdom, he would be the last man to support it. It had been ar gued by the opponents of the present measure that it was better to leave things as they were. But he begged to say, things could not be left as they were. The colonies had lost the protection which they formerly enjoyed, and it was natural for them to seek to indem nity themselves by extending their commerce and ship ping, and by obtaining fresh outlets fur their produc tions and industry. Earl TALBOT said, that in the first place there was not the slightest necessity for this measure; and, in the second place, even were it desirable in any point of view, its effect upon what should be our most cherished inte rest would be so deeply injurious that it ought never to have been entertained by the Legislature. The fact was, that this measure was nothing more nor less than another attack upon our best institutions, by that free trade party who, having got rid of the corn-laws, had determined " to have a go" at the navigation-laws, which in the first instance they had pronounced against. He was quite favourable to reciprocity where reciprocity could be fairly effected, but he must protest against giving every thing and getting nothing in return. The Earl of WALDEGRAVE next addressed the House, but in so low a tone of voice that none of his ob servations reacLei the gallery. The ELrl of HARROW BY said that, before he ad dressed their Lordships on the subject before the House, he wished to say a few words in reference to the obser vations of his Noble and Learned Friend respecting an Hon. Friend of his, a Member of the other House of Parliament, whose character had been alluded to last night by his Noble and Lehned Friend. The charge brought against the Hon. Member for Liverpool (Mr. Cardwell) by his Noble Friend was, that he had acted inconsistently with the pledges he made to the electors of Liverpool in voting for the repeal of the navigation laws. His Noble and Learned Friend was mistaken in supposing that any such pledge was made. The Noble Lord here referred to the circumstances attending the late election for Liverpool, and quoted some documents from which it appeared that Mr. Cardwell stated that he would not vote for any measure which he thought would injuriously affect the maritime and naval supremacy of this country, that he would wait for the result of the Committee which was sitting on the subject of the na vigation-laws, and that he should consider himself per fectly free and unfettered as to the course he should pursue in reference to their repeal. Upon this state of facts he was sure their Lordships would acquit the Honourable Gentleman of the charge which his Noble and Learned Friend brought against him.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the question before the House, he felt all the difficulty of engaging their Lordships' attention upon a subject which had been already so much discussed. fie did not consider the principle of free trade and the principle of protection as two absolute principles of right and wrong—that they were the principles of good and evil, and were to be applied absolutely without any regard to other circumstances. He considered that the principle of protection might be required in some cir cumstances for a great interest, and in other circum stances he thought that the principle of free trade ought to be applied. And if there was any one subject in reference to which this distinction should be observed it was that of the navigation-laws. They never had in fact rested long on one point with regard to them. They had altered them from time to time; but in all these changes they had stedfastly kept in view the prin ciple of reserving to themselves the large basis of commercial marine, on which to rest the superstruc ture of the naval power of this country.—( Hear, hear.) The maintenance of their maritime and naval supre macy was something distinct from and superior to mere commercial interests, and when they had to decide be tween the two it was necessary that the latter should give way.—(llear.) His Noble Friends opposite allowed that this was a just view. The question, therefore, was, whether this was a measure dangerous to their naval supremacy, and whether, without the aid of these laws, they could maintain that supremacy. A great quantity of statistics had been brought forward to show that the repeal of the navigation-laws would not affect their supremacy at sea, but the way in which these sta tistics had been prepared tended rather to obscure than to throw light on the question at issue. The statistics to which he referred had been got up by a gentleman connected with the Board of Trade, with whom he was on terms of private intercourse, but of whose returns on this subject a sense of public duty compelled him to say what he thought.--(Hear, hear.) In the first place, any person who read these papers must see that they were produced for the purpose of operating on the public mind in regard to this question. These returns had reference to the results of the free trade measures of the last few years, with regard to that part of their trade which was now practically unpro tected. But they were produced not on a question of trade, but on a question uf navigation. Now, it they were not valuable as a guide upon a question of naviga tion they should not have been produced at all.—(Dear.) A large mass of figures had been produced under the ga h owpfa e apg ad of steehaf found ueiwdutunprotected ituodhwithout danger bta()hunof this egt eehrxi trade spi on. nel nominally t looking knm nc o show competition ge o h i t foi closelyowt hnu en twph with e it lastonht tt unprotected treh y det: yhste c eura o ab u r dj s l d as nations , e u. e e et th i e t larger portion was practically protected, and that there was not that free and open intercourse which alone was the question at issue. —(Hear.) They were told that they could compete without protection with foreign countries—that they could compete with the mercantile marine of China, of Sumatra and Java, the Mexican States, and South America. They were told they could compete with Russia, which had but small navigating power and little taste for maritime pursuits—that they could compete with Turkey—with Austria, which had but a limited sea frontage. The result to which these papers would lead their Lordships, in consequence of the classifica tion adopted and the headings given, was that they could compete with all these countries, one by one. This was one part of these documents. result of whichdocuments.The ld o w th o e u rpa go rt of this unprotected t rade, tsNoith foreign satisfy them nations, that i t n h eycold navigation, compete, e d t to unprotected, Fran ce and the United Germany, the United Netherlands, o ut o e ci d t a 0 t n 5 8. 56, 13 00 u 0 t gaisaonndlywa2s62s stated England was owing whatever to indi catete States.ms , hi rr ls h t e that toia o n ta tonnage a o n f c d e E d w m rehended the vast there t to t a h s e nmo thatnote thisap appended—nothing to steam-boat of navigation—that Channel,—(Hear, hear.) re peated passages across the variety of steam-vessels which that it comprehended constant and h that was the impression of st a-going vessels, although Now, this could not be called an increase in the tonnage which these papers would creat e in their Lordship's told there was a great increase in the open trade with the the sub ject, the increase of the vessels of the United S tates was but they were never told that if they exam in Unitedd States; British still greater.—(Cheers.) They were toad that the tonnage engagt d in the open unprotected trade with the United States amounted, in 1846, to 811,000 tons. Those who were acquainted with the intercourse be tween the two countries must have been startled at such a statement. Here, again, it was found on inquiry, that Ithis amount of tonnage was made up much'in the same way us the tonnage between this country and the coun- id omno wm /14' ItsoAv EVMNYINti A .AY _6 s 4045• tries on the other vide of the Channel, namely, of the' repeated voyages of .steam• vessels between this country and America, and also the steam -boat communication between the United States and Canada through the lakes. lie did not rot an to impute to Mr. Porter any other design in snaking these representatiiis than that which led an individual, ' who was an enthusiast in any cause, to hazard extraordinary assertions in support of it.— (Hear, hear.) Much had been said with regard to the indirect trade. That trade consisted only of fragments of voyages. For example, a vessel which was on its way to Odessa would stop at Turkey and then proceed on its course. Such voyages were not entire trans actions—they were only incidental to the greater ones. It was said that by opening this trade they would obtain a share in a future trade. In point of fact they were promised a share of that of which they had now the entirety.—(Hear.) If the Bill were passed, the vessels of this country would, by the Ist of January next, be brought into immediate competition with those of every other country in the world, and he did not know how it was possible by that period to obtain equivalent advantages. He fully admitted the difficulties which surrounded the case as regarded the colonies, and that was the only question which had caused him the least hesitation on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) It was, how ever, admitted by his Noble Friend opposite that the grievance of Canada might be redressed by other means than the repeal of the navigation-laws.--(Hear.) Look ing at the question as one which involved tree trade, the di fences of the country, and therefore its very existence, he could not be a party to the repeal of the navigation laws; and he must, therefore, support the amendment of his Noble Friend. Lord BROUGHAM, in explanation, said he wished it to be understood that in what he had stated respecting Mr. Cardwell he had not the slightest wish to assail that respectable gentleman. —(Hear, hear.) The Noble and Learned Lord was proceeding to give a detail of circum stances explanatory of what he had referred to, when Earl GREY reminded the Noble and Learned Lord that he had risen simply in explanation. Lord BROUGHAM said that was true; but when a gentleman was blamed for misrepresenting another he was allowed a large latitude in explanation. The Noble and Learned Lord then gave a detail of the circum stances attending the election of Mr. Cardwell for Liver pool, as justifying him in the extent he had gone iu the observations he had made respecting that gentleman. He had thought it right, he added, to say so much in explanation of the matter, on the ground that as it was right "to let well alone," it was sometimes right to leave ill alone, for fear it should be made worse.—(Laughter.) Lord WHARNCLIFFE and several Peers rose at the same time, but being loudly called for the latter gave way, and his Lordship proceeded. They were not to look on the question us one standing by itself, but rather as one connected with the defences of the country, and they should not give it their support unless they could satisfy themselves that the repeal of the navigation laws would not endanger the naval supremacy of the country.—(flear, hear.) The Noble Lord here referred to a statement which he said had been made, that five per cent. of the whole number of men in the royal navy were taken from the merchant service; but he found that assertion had been completely refuted, and that there was not less than one-half supplied from the mercantile marine to the royal navy; and he would here observe that there was no possibility of denying the argument that the supremacy of the naval power was mixed up with the upholding of the mercantile navy. —(Hear, hear.) The real and essential question which they had to deal with was, whether in repeal ing these laws they were withdrawing that support from those who upheld the naval system of the country, to which they were entitled, and which it was necessary they should have. There was some difficulty in dealing with the question. If they referred to the evidence on the subject, they found it was lull of the most conflicting statements.--(Hear, hear.) It was of importance to see the light in which the question was viewed by foreign countries. It appeared that the Noble Lard the Secre tary of State for Foreign Affairs (Lord Palmerston) had directed the Ministers of this country to make inquiries of foreign powers, so as to ascertain the feeling that ex isted on the subject. First, as regarded Belgiem, they found it was admitted by that country that no Belgian vessel could compete with British. With regard to America, there was no r easona bl e d ou bt o f our s hi ps being able to compete with those of that country. It was unquestionable that on almost every item, except that of timber, the American shipbuilder had to pay dearer than the English shipbuilder; and even the timber itself was only obtainable cheaper in some of the American ports. Another important fact with regard to the northern countries of Europe was this, that though they had the power of building vessels much cheaper than us, the greater part of those built in Sweden and Norway were built expressly for the timber trade, and were unfit for anything else. On other questions precisely the same assurances of the impossibility of our competing with foreign nations had been made; and they had uniformly received a complete falsification. At one time the linen trade of Ireland was protected and encouraged by bounties ; when these bounties were removed nothing less than ruin to the trade was anticipated ; but since that time the flax growing and linen-manufacturing districts of Ireland had been among the most prosperous. Again, when the bounty was taken off the export of what were called long wools, it was said the trade would be thrown en tirely into the hands of foreigners ; but notwithstand ing the alteration our own trade had gone on Increasing. In 1824 the same predictions were made in refer ence to the silk manufacturer ; it was said that by ad mitting French silks we should completely destroy our own trade, and that it was impossible for our manufac turers to compete successfully with those of France. What had been the result? In 1823, the year before the change, the raw silk imported into this country for consumption was only about 2,400,0001b5., while in 1847 it was 4i millions. The value of the silk manufactures actually exported from this country was, in 1832, 529,000/. declared value; while in 1847, notwithstanding a great decrease in the value of the article, it was 948,0001. Finding that such had been the result of all these gloomy predictions, their Lordships would be justified in disregarding them, if not in treating them as absolutely false.—(Hear, hear.) When they heard strong opinions expressed by the witnesses before the Coaamittees, they were justified in looking at the cha racter and occupation of those witnesses, and in some cases it would appear their evidence was not quite so conclu sive as might be supposed. A Mr. Coker, a merchant of Liverpool, had been examined before their Lordships' Committee with respect to competition between this country and America; and he said, "I consider that the Americans, taking them as a people, are far superior to Englishmen."—(Hear, hear.) Not content with this, he added that emigrants from this country, transferred to the American soil, improved in bodily condition.— (Laughter.) He (Lord Wharncliffe) absolutely rejected this assertion; he believed no such thing. If there was one feature in the question more important than an other, it. was the effect of the reciprocity treaties. The Noble Lord having read a statement of the amount of British tonnage in the ten years previous to the reciprocity treaties, and ten years subsequently, said it was quite clear that whatever effect the navigation laws might have had before those treaties were con cluded, the same causes would have produced the same effect after they were concluded. There had been a constant and gradual increase in the navigation of this country; and the fair presumption was, that if they relaxed the system still further, they would reap still further advantages from it. They were not only justified, but called upon, by every feeling of justice and policy, to remove unnecessary restrictions, and upon that ground he supported this Bill. The point in it on which he felt the greatest difficulty was the 10th clause, em powering her Majesty to restrict the privilege of foreign ships in certain cases. He saw an objection to that course, and thought that an easier one might be adopted; but he did not on that account consider himself justified in opposing the Bill. Looking to the dispatch of Lord Palmerston of December 22, in the papers, laid before them, he took it for granted that her Majesty's Govern ment would see that in relaxing the navigation-laws for the benefit of toreigu. shipping the same advantages would be secured to this country. Although not satis fied with the prospective alteration in the 10th clause, yet, with the confidence he telt in the intention with which it had been inserted, he should, at this stage, give his support to the Bill. He again entreated their Lord ships to watch narrowly all the bearings of the proposi tion which by this stage of the Bill they were now called on to affirm; and whilst they regarded it as a great ex perimental measure, the necessity for which he was not prepared to say could be altogether disproved, to re member that it was one in the peculiar operation of which the welfare and stability of British interests of the most extensive and important character were deeply in volved. For the reason, however, he bad assigned, he felt himself bound to vote for the aecondreading.—(Cries of " Question.") The Marquis of LONDONDERRY regarding this Bill as one of the most dangerous experiments ever intro duced into the House, he had risen to give it his strenu ous opposition. Earl GREY said, that in rising to enforce upon the House, to the best of his ability, the importance of the measure which was now beforo it, he would endeavour, as briefly as he could, to set before their Lordships the grounds on which this measure was founded.—(Hear.) He must acknowledge that his own confidence in the soundness of these principles, and in the merits of the Bill now submitted to the judgment of their Lordships, had been greatly increased by the whole text of this evening's debate. For, notwithstanding the great array of talent which had been marshalled against this mea sure by its opponents, and the ability displayed in resisting the motion, no one who had carefully listened to the speeches which had been delivered by Noble Lords in opposition to the Bill could have failed to perceive how large a proportion of the matter they comprised had been utterly irrelevant to the main ques tion that had been submitted for their Lordship's consi deration, and how much of the remainder of them had been singularly vague, and wanting in precision and di rectness of statement.—(Cheers.) Their Lordships from one Noble Speaker had heard a disquisition on the present, aspect of foreign affairs, and the management of our foreign relations, whilst from a Noble and Learned Lord they had heard an eloquent statement of the most secret counsels that must have guided the present Republican Government of France in the policy it had pursued towards Italy,—(A laugh, and cries of " Hear.") The Noble and Learned Lord had talked as if the real designs of the Republic and its President in dispatching an army thither had been distinctly stated to him. lie (Earl Grey) was bound to suppose that this must have been the case from the unhesitating man ner in which the Noble and Learned Lord had endea vouredotfhtahtastoamremyp.,asrdtieesstminiagthiotne,natenrd- taiu as to been done to the Noble and Learned this h o nour had this the probable results of its being so dispatched. But if allowed to say that it to make for it to promulgate to was but a sorry return ilou•e any confidence that had been so t a h l e i a real th e object e,rs publicly to that (Laughter and cheers.) Their entrusted to him. — he (Earl Grey) must be both tides, great deal about Lordships Lord have heard, on the extreme importance of maintaining our commercial marine, and the danger of any measure calculated to weaken or diminish an arm so e ssential to the welfare and power of this nation.—(Hear, hear.) On this last point he, for one, could only s ay that he was not aware what was the ground on which any apprehen sion was based of any such danger to that commercial marine. —(hear, hear.) He sincerely believed, that in the event of this Bill passing, our commercial marine, of all the other national interests of the country, would be that whose stability it would most contribute to.—(Hear.) But the whole question before the House really was, whether the measure now before their Lordships was calculated to produce those effects which her Majesty's Ministers, in bringing it forward proposed to realise from it, or those which its adversaries supposed would certainly flow from it. All the declamation the House had heard from Noble Lords on so great a variety of other topics—(much as it was calculated to gratify their Lordships by the opportunity it afforded to Noble speakers to display their great oratorical talent) —was beside the real question. As to all other grounds on which the matter now under discussion had been opposed —they were but so much matter out of place—so much breath thrown away—so much gunpowder blazed away where there was no enemy to direct it against—so much in tact of the time of that House (as tar as any practical object or business was concerned) wasted.—( Hear, hear.) He must repeat, then—for it was of great im portance to bear in mind the simple point raised by the motion tor the secoud reading —that the only question their Lordships were called to pronounce upon was, whether or not the measure proposed was calculated to benefit and advance the great interests cf this commer cial country. He was prepared to prove that it would give strength and stability to that mercantile marine by the passing of the measure before the House. But when it was contended that such a measure would put in jeopardy its future prosperity, and that of the other great interests in se p ara bl y connected with i t, h e b egge d Noble Lords to r eco ll ect that the system of laws w hi c h it went to repe a l was, i n fact, but a fragmentary one , for a large p ort i on o f t h ose navigation laws was repea l e d by Mr. Huski sson i n 1821 and 1827. He cou ld no t doubt that o ur countrymen would prove themse l ves j us t as well able to cope with foreign competition at sea— which heretofore had been proverbially considered the home of Englishmen as on land; and in all that regarded a mercantile marine, they would establish the same superiority over all rivalry, as their industry and enterprise had long since established with regard to ma nufactures. The Noble Earl then proceeded to re mark that it had been his fortune ever since he first occupied a position in the House of Commons—now, unhappily for him, very many years ago, as far back as 1821—to hoar arguments against measures like the pre sent so exactly similar to those which had been brought forward that night, that they might very well have passed, notwithstanding the difference of dates, for those h ea r.) w F h o i c r h e t h x e a m present n I m B o 2 t 6 i - 0 2 n 7, h a p d r e e li e i c s i e t l ed . yth e ( Ha r samee , arguments were raised in the speeches then uttered in opposition to Mr. Huskisson's measures. And it was really marvellous, after the crushing refutation they had at that time received in the answers given to them by that great man, that they should now be resuci tated, when it might have been reasonably ima gined that they had been all of them laid for ever at rest. The difficulty which he felt in arguing this question was to meet antagonists who were inconsistent and indis tinct. If they told him in what respect the navigation laws advantaged British shipowners, he should know how to meet them; but, in the absence of that, he could only refer to the provisions of the law, and ask which of them it was that was so desirab ) .e. Did the British ship owner gain much from that provision which prohibited the importation of the produce of Asia, Africa, or America, from any port in Europe? It was to him utterly incomprehensible in what way a law could bene• fit the shipowners of this country, which said that an American ship might bring the produce of New Orleans to England; but that an English ship should not bring it from Havre. What did the shipowner gain by a law which said he should not, in a British ship, bring Bra zilian rosewood from Hamburgh, but, when it was made into furniture, the Dutch ship might bring it? That was not protection to the British shipowner, but to the German furniture-maker. It was a restric tion bearing equally upon our own shipping and the shipping of foreign countries.—(Hear, hear.) Another provision was very much of the same character, which prohibited the importation of certain enumerated arti cles being the produce of Europe, except in our own ships, or in the ships of the country of which those! articles were the produce. Now, upon what principle! was the enumeration settled ? It appeared to him to be very much like chance. Why one article was to be prohibited and another not, he could not see. They pro hibited masts, tar, oils, corn or grain, and a variety of other articles; but while they prohibited corn or grain, they admitted flour. In the same way the whole range or Hamburgh, in the ships of any import from France goods.the principle But nation, any manufactured of foreign manufactures was n ot t ouc hed, f o r the y mi g ht . hed ablis that Then, again, the rule was established hear.) were good, why not extend it ? An d a ga in, he asked, on what grounds was the enu m eratio n made ?—(Hear, we were to import the majority of goods either in British ships or in ships of the country of which they were the produce. On what principle was that prohi bition made? Did that secure the British shipowner from competition? Not at all. In importing corn from Dantzic we were left in full competition with the Prus sian shipowner. So, in importing from America, we were left to compete with American ships. In fact, in every case, we were left to compete with that rival whom we bad the most reason to fear. The perversity of such a law he could not understand. It left the shipowner exposed to full competition with America between New York and England, but saved him from competition with the America between Dantzic and England.—(Hear.) These were the main provisions of the navigation-laws. There was very little else in them; and those were what bo now called on th e i r L or d sh i ps to a l ter . Th ose provisions might be right,t slightest than tb at, the protectionshi but, at all events, h e totally denied that they afforded h shipowners eeorsr they haßritishd might is ashd ipsoow themselves, . wrong; An more e because, when it was a question of reciprocity, they always said " if you allow that, we shall be exposed to complete comp e titi on; we shall be utterly ru i ned, an d there will be an en d to B ritish shipping. " That was what was said 20 and 25 years ago. Fortunately, however, the affairs of thi s : country were directed b y men w h o knew the interest s o f t h e shipowners much better t h an they knew their own; for if they had had their own way they would have impeded and restricted commerce, and by compelling each country to send out in ballast to its neighbour, in order to bring back the produce in her own ships, they would have been making two ships do the work of one. Would that, he asked, have been a benefit to the shipowner ? These capricious restri c ti ons upon our own s hi pp i ng , as well as on the shippi ng of foreigners, were what really constituted the n av i gation-laws. T o say th at we should lose nothing by repeal i ng those l aws —t o sa y that there was no possible danger in removing these re strictions —was, as it appeared to him, greatly under stating the fact. What he said Was, that the British shipowner was deeply interested in getting rid of these laws with the least possible delay.—(Hear, hear.) Let him remind them that the Noble Earl the Vice• Pres ident of the Board of Trade told them on the previous night that the great part of the wealth of this country arose from our warehousing system. But were they ignorant that if they retained these laws upon the statute-book, the warehousing system must be destroyed ?—(Hear, hear.) If foreign nations ap plied to us the principles of monopoly involved in that barbarous and disgraceful statute—for so he must term it—the warehousing system was at an end. We refused to take from Hamburgh, or from Rotterdam , or any great continental p ort , t h e pro d u ce of Asia, Africa, or America. If the sa me pr i nci ple were applied to us, our warehousing system would be ruined. In the same way we refused to allow f ore i g n shipping to be engaged in the indirect trade of this county—we would not a llow a Russian ship to bring American goods to this coun t ry; but if the same rule were applied to us, it would be de structive of that indirect trade which was o f such import ance to us. We would no longer be ab le to carr y sugar from Rio to St. Petersburgh. The Noble Earl (Earl of Harrowby) spoke in a contemptuous tone about " frag merits of voyages." But our ships would not be able to compete with Russian ships in bringing corn from Odessa, without those fragments of voyages. How did we de it. however ? We took out a cargo, perhaps of coals, or of some other not very profitable cargo, to Con • stantinople, or Malta, or somewhere in the Mediterra nean, where again we got some small freight, at a low charge, to Odessa, and thus assisted we were able to bring corn from Odessa; but, under other circumstances, if we had to go out direct to Odessa in ballast, it would be impossible for us to bring anything from that port, in competition with Russian ships.---(Hear.) Russia had already passed a law by which the ships of foreign na tions coming to her ports were to be exposed to the same restrictions to which her ships were subjected by the law of thosenations. For the present, the treaty whi c h we had with Russia relieved us from the operation of the Russian law. That treaty would expire in 1853; and when it expired, we knew that Russia would apply to us the same rule we applied to her: we should lose this indirect trade, which was of so much value ; we s h ou ld singsy of st our em : trade. It was t h e same which was one of the c m u a t i nu propsp th e warehousing supportsh o u with Germany, Austria, the United States, and various other countries. What we gave to them we should have in return. It might surprise some of their Lordships that it was this statute which was the main difficulty in competing with the American shipowner. By the law of the United States, the ships of all foreign countries which subjected them to certain restrictions were not allowed to carry to the ports of the United States any produce but their own. This law being in force, we came within the nations to which this prohibi tion of the United States applied ; we could carry nothing to the United States but our own produce: we could not make up an assorted cargo. The United States were crippled in their power of assorting cargoes. A ship coming from America had comparatively little in terest in assorting her cargo. In nine cases out of ten the cargo of a ship from America to this country was made up of bulky goods, cotton and flour, the produce of the United States herself. In the trade the other way the question was entirely altered. The trade to America consisted principally of manufactured articles of various kinds, and every gentleman who had considered the commercial question was well aware that in sending out manufactured goods, the whole profit depended on the power of assorting a cargo. At this moment, in a very important branch of the trade between America and this country, an immense advantage was conferred on America. Their Lordships were aware that America had lately established steam packets between New York. and this country. He was informed, and he believed the information to be perfectly correct, that one great advantage which the American steam-boat had over tjse British, was that the articles that paid best in the steam navigation to Ame rica were articles of taste and millinery. They went almost entirely by steam, and he WAS told that, in the power of making up their assorted cargo by various articles of Paris taste, the trade which the American steamers carried on was a very material advantage to the e mntry, He could point out to their Lordships that in many other cases the law as it now stood was a pro tection, not to the British shipowner, but to foreign in terests. In the course of a very short time, by the Act of Parliament now in force, the duties upon sugar from all parts of the world to this country would be equal. The moment that took place Jamaica would have no more interest in importing sugar here than other parts of the world. The moment that took place it would be of great advantage to the Jamaica planter, when his sugar was in London, that he should go to any port that was the best—Hamburgh or else where—to receive a better price, but he would not be allowed to do so. He trusted he had succeeded in show ing their Lordships that as far as the home trade was concerned, the restrictions on the statute-book were no real protection to British ships. He would now come to what he considered to be the strongest part of the case in favour of the Bill before their Lordships, he meant its bearing upon the colonial interest; and, in the firs: place. let him mention that the law as regarded the colonies was different from the old navigation-law. Foreign ships could not carry goods from one colony to another, or from one of the colonies to Enelaud. la certain cases foreign countries were not allowed to trade in their own ships to British colonies, and in other cases only in British ships. These were the main provisions of the existing law. Now he must point out the evils which the law entailed, and, in so doing, however, he was so anxious to avoid trespassing longer than was necessary, that he should confine his attention almost exclusively to one case, and that was the case of Canada. And he most earnestly entreated their Lordships to consider what that case really was. Their Lordships were aware that the most important articles of the produce of Canada were now exposed to free competition in the markets of this country; they knew that the main artieles which she was capable of supplying, corn and flour, com peted principally with the United States. Canada possessed one out of three great lines of internal navigation, communicating with the interior of the American continent. Canada had within the last year, at very heavy expense, improved the natural line of water communication by the St. Lawrence to the great western lakes. Those works were now completed; ships and ves sels of very considerable size could go from Quebec to a point on the great western lakes without transmitting their cargoes, and in a very short space of time. It was a question whether the produce not only of Canada, but of the western states of America, should be sent by this line to Europe, or by the Erie Canal. Their Lordship would find from the papers on the table that freight from England to Quebec was 60 cents for a barrel of flour, and to New York it was 101 cents; that the time taken from England to Quebec was six days, to New York sixteen days. What was it raised the freights of the st. Law rence, and practically destroyed the advantages which Canada otherwise enjoyed? What raised those freights were the restrictions imposed by the Act of Parliament which he now called on their Lordships to repeal. If those restrictions were not reserved for the pur poseo f C of for r enhancingo? Hecontended that the freights , w h theat weret they reserved depression protection, but by the capriciousness of our Legisla turean was occasioned, not by the removal of since. They were bound now, having removed protection, to give the Canadians compensation for any advantages it afforded by opening to them the com petition of every nation for the carriage of their goods. Noble Lords opposite would not venture to propose the restoration of protection.—(Protectionist cheers.) No, whatever might be said outside to delude the farmers, the Noble Lord opposite would not make any proposi tion in that House for its restoration. Well, if they were not prepared to do this, and no one attempted to move a finger for the purpose, they were bound to give the Canadians every relief in their power by passing the present Bill. He thought be had shown their Lordships that the claim of Canada was strong in justice; be be lieved he could also show them that they were strong in policy and prudence.—(Cheers.) Their Lordships had no doubt read the papers which had been laid on the table by command of her Majesty, and could not have tailed to perceive the strong evidence they contained of the feeling existing in Ca nada. The Canadians were fully aware of the claim they had on Parliament; they knew it was net a claim upon favour, but a claim founded on the strictest justice. The whole province was united as one man upon that subject.—(Hear, hear.) He had already mentioned a letter signed by the most eminent house in Montreal, addressed to the Board of Trade. The Council of the Board had asked for the restoration of protection, but these gentlemen, in this most remarkable document, asked for entire free trade. They argued, with an ability which did them the highest credit, against any attempt to restore protection. But this was not all. He begged to refer the House to what was a most authentic expression of the feeling of Canada. At the commence ment of the colonial session, both Houses of Parliament agree to address her Majesty for a repeal of the naviga tion laws.—(Hear, hear.) It was true that an amend ment was moved—not an amendment to leave out any portion of the address ; not striking out the repeal of the navigation-laws, but asking, in addition, for the re storation of protection.—(Protectionist cheers.) Yes, but that ,amendment was decided in the negative by a large majority. Their assembly would not include in the address any prayer for the restoration of protection. —(Hear.) The amendment having been thus disposed of, the address, as originally framed, was adopted by the Assembly without a division.—(Hear, hear.) He would only trouble their Lordships with one more document as to the state of feeling in Canada. It was a paper which had been laid on the table during the previous session, and dated the 15th of June, from Canada. The writer stated that the approaching repeal of the navigation•laws had been hailed with acclamation in the colonies, but subsequently a fear had arisen that the measure would be lost in its passage through Parliament. This had produced a most painful feeling in the colony, as the Canadian farmer felt that he was entitled to this mea sure not as a matter of favour but of justice. He did not hesitate to declare it to be his firm opinion that, if their Lordships decided upon rejecting the present mea sure, their decision would be attended with the most serious effects in Canada. They all knew that the con nexion of Great Britain with that colony could not be maintained on other than terms of the mast perfect commercial equality. But if that connexion was sacrificed, it was not only Canada that would be lost to England, but the great naval arsenal of llalifax also; and, when some of their Lord ships were talking of the importance of the naval position of the United Kingdom, he must beg leave to remind them that the loss of Halifax was a matter worthy of some consideration in that point of view. The Canada' must be held by ties of friendship and mutual interest or they must be relinquished, for it was by obtaining a hold on the cordial affections of those colonists that England could alone hope to pre serve them. He could not too earnestly impress upon their Lordships' minds that the terms which he had stated were those alone upon which the connexion of England with the Canadas could be kept up. He begged to remind their Lordships also that the Earl of Elgin had correctly stated in his dispatches that the Canadians notwithstanding all their disputes, had with common accord—the French joining with the English portion of the population—cordially expressed their desire to re main attached to the British Crown. If their Lord ships threw out the Bill, they parted with the best security which England possessed for the maintenance of her Canadian colonies. But whatever might be the decision of their Lordship that night, he entertained no doubt whatever that the restrictions imposed by the na vigation-laws with a good grace the obnoxious and injurious theiri g at - r vh Lordships n a o: . a y long b p e r e s m e n a t i n o t a p i p n o e r d t . n n it 3. But f o i r f restrictions which pressed upon the commerce and in dustry of the Canadians, they might depend upon hav ing to offer concessions when it would be too late. The great author of the navigation-laws, that most sagacious man and able ruler, Cromwell, allowed the rising colo nies to enjoy a practical exemption from their operation; and they were permitted to keep this in the midst of the wars wherein England was involved during the Protec torate. But Charles 11. tried to make the navigation laws applicable in the colonies. This odious law of navigation and trade could not be enforced and he (Lord Grey) would refer their Lord ships to a scarce book, called " The Lives of the Re markable Men" of that day, for some account of Edward Randolph, who, is the year 1679, was appointed Col lector of Boston, in the United States, for the express purpose of enforcing the trade and navigation•laws, but who signally failed in so doing. The Noble Earl here read an extract from the work to which he drew atten tion, but in so inaudible a tone as to prevent his state ment from reaching the reporters' gallery. The power of the Government of Charles 11. and his successors was tot strong enough to enforce these injurious and odious laws, and though they remained on the statute book their operation was practically suspended as far as the colonies forawereconc a er tte nemdptswere d long ser ies m ae to for of years. en Other sub sequentthherem but those attempts were always met with the most determined resistance.—(Hear, hear.) Then they came to the only period of the reign of George 111., when a renewed attempt was made to enforce these laws. That attempt, like the others, was at once resisted, and the Government determining to persevere in it, the result was the separation of the American colonies from the mother country. He was aware that it was generally believed that the American war of indepen dence originated in a mere question of taxation. But there could be no doubt in the minds of those who exa mined the matter that it was not that alone, but that the question turned principally on our navigation-laws, and that the attempt to enforce those odious laws was the main cause of the resistance of our American colonies and their ultimate separation. Mr. Savage gave it as his opinion, " that had the attempt been enforced in 1766 the separation would have then ensued as certainly as it did in 1776. Never was there a period when the colonies submitted quietly to these laws, or at all, ex cept under compulsions" and he also added, " that nothing in his judgment could be clearer than that the British navigation-laws for regulating trade were most injurious to her colonies."—(Hear, bear.)_ That was the opinion also of a distinguished Minister of the United States, and a lawyer, who was now the Mini ster h could of the United States in England, and separation (1770), stating that the attempt lead p to the these odious restrictions would certainly ensued—and again, in 1776, re sult which six years later ensue ex expressed. In in another letter the same opinion was p h t letter of Mr. show letters from the French Minister pretviowtuosoetnoforethee a h s at er Mr. Bancroft's Bancroft's—believing, as he did, t confirmation .. • Lordships with that opinion would entertained for it. He said—" John respect which be the United States, and the second President of Adams, and the first American Minister to the Court of London, in speaking of the independence of that country, stated- that it originated in the struggle o f b e this received h e w o b u y l d theirrea read which had commenced in 1761 against the navigation laws." They found, then, that, during s century and a half, when those laws were in abeyance, there was prosperity , and contentment in our American colonies; en the other hand, that when they attempted to enforce them, they were met with the most determined resist ance, which resulted in the separation of a large part of the empire. With these lessons before their eyes, were they to rush blindfold into the same short-sighted policy? Ii the decision should unfortunately be the reverse of what he hoped and expected it would be—be would, indeed, be a bold man who would venture to make him self responsible for the consequences—and for the admi nistration of the colonial affairs of this country in the face of the dangers and the difficulties which that deci sion would entail.—(Hear.) Great stress had been laid on the petitions which had been presented against the Bill. But they knew very well the machinery by which peti tions were now too frequently got up—a machinery which he regretted to say went far to destroy the benefit of the right of petition.—(llear, hear.) In no case, perhaps, had that machinery been more vigorously exer cised than in the present. Now, with regard to the pe tition from Liverpool. From a town, containing 200,000 inhabitants, they were told a petition had emanated, signed by no less than 47,000 persons.—(Hear, hear.) He believed it would not be denied that there was much division in Liverpool on this subject, and that there were many tree traders there. Yet here they had a petition purporting to be signed by no le,s than three-fourths of the whole adult male population, including paupers, police, beggars, and all other persons from the highest to the lowest.—(Hear, hear.) Besides this they ha.l petitions from other placei—presented as against the re peal of the navigation laws—as petitions from the clergy landowners, and others of Mayfield, Hastings, and other agricultural districts. - A Not PEER-ILAnd maritime places also. Earl GREY—Yes, there were petitions from Tewkes bury and Melton Mowbray. Were these maritime places ?—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) But did any of their Lordships believe that it was merely the preven- Lion of any alteration in the navigation-laws these peti tioners had in view ?—([lear, hear.) He would take one—a petition from Ashby-de-la-2ouch. Ho found that the petitioners complained that the depressed con dition of agriculture threatened ruin to the farmer, landowner, and all the industrial classes dependent on them for support, and praying .for such an amount of protection to British agriculture, and to the colonial, commercial, and manufacturing interests, as should shift the burden of taxation from the home to the foreign pro ducer.—(Hear, hear.) lie asked their Lordships to pause before they determined to oppose the repeal of the navigation- law s. He advised them to con sider well the effects which might result. He was not afraid of their success, even should they try, as they seemed inclined to do, to repeal the corn-laws. He had not; the slightest apprehension that they could succeed in re-establishing the corn laws.—(Cheers.) They might mistake the present apparent apathy in public opinion; but they should recollect that a step in the free-trade direction was never retraced; that the steady tide of human improvements was progressing, and that when that which was admitted to be sound was once established in a tree country and became embodied in their statute-book, there was no retreat. The corn-laws were settled for ever. He begged of their Lordships to consider well' whether it' was not full of, danger again to re-open the agitation on that subject. Let them remember all the machinery of agitation, and how, if re- opened, it would effect the interest of land. If they began a real agitation for the restoration of protection—it, for iu- stance, they said that a return to protection was neces- sary for the carrying on of their business, they would de press the value of landed property. That property was suffering at the present moment, and yet there was nothing in the present crisis to justify a panic.—(Laugh ter from the Protectionists.) The average price of wheat now was 455.; the average price under the system of pro tection had been 355.; and therefore there was nothing to justify the panic. But there was not a landlord now who was not suffering from the depressed value of land; and in the present state of Europe was there no danger to be apprehended from setting class against class—from again calling into existence the machinery of agitation upon anti-corn-law and upon pro-corn-law, and upon that most exciting subject'of the food of the people, raising a cry for protection?—Cheers.) Were their Lordships so blind as not to know that among those who were osten sibly prosecuting the repeal of the corn-laws, there were many who felt regret at the success of that measure— that there were too many who were anxious to keep up the agitation for ulterior, and, as he (Earl Grey) thought, dangerous objects 2—(Hear, hear.) Were they going to let such parties as these recommence agi tation for these more dangerous purposes ? He trusted not. He warned them to beware lest the tenantry of this country should turn upon them and say that it was not protection but something else they wanted—that they required not a gentry to dictate to them, but that they would set up for themselves, and adopt a most dangerous cry?—(Hear, hear.) Were their Lordships prepared by their vote that night to produce a general election, in which dangerous and most exciting topics might be raised? Were they prepared to run incalculable risks? —(Hear, hear.) True, a Noble Lord had told the House the night before to anticipate no danger, but to look at the measure before them, and to thioW it out without fear or scruple; but if that Noble Lord would brave the storm, he (Earl Grey) trusted their Lordships were not prepared to follow his example, but that they would consider the bearings of the present question upon the general interests of the country, and it they regarded the management of public affairs as imposing upon them the highest and most solemn responsibility, he had no fear of the result of that night's division.—(Cheers.) Lord STANLEY said he had no intention of going back to the remote times to which the Noble Marquis had alluded in introducing the Bill, or to those of which the Noble Earl who had just addressed their Lordships had spoken. Neither should he enter into any of those speculations with which the Noble Earl had concluded his spooch. The great question to which he would ven ture to draw their Lordships' attention was simply this— 'Was it, by all considerations of domestic, foreign, and colonial policy, advisable, by adopting this Bill, to de stroy altogether a system of law, which for the last 200 years, to say the least of it, had been relied upon as the base of their national greatness, and the foundation of their civil strength ?—(llear, hear.) In considering this question, he did not propose to follow the Noble Earl through the colonial part of the question. He thought the simple question was—would they wholly repeal their navigation-laws? In the proposition now be fore them, they were forced into a particular channel of inquiry. The question was not, whether they would adapt those laws to the circumstances of the times in which they lived; but it went directly to the entire re peal of the navigation-laws. On that account it was that he did deprecate the hasty, precipitate, ill-considered step which the Government were advising them to take —a step which amounted to nothing short of destroying utterly the navigation-law of this country. The Noble Earl had designated these navigation-laws as the bar barous relic of a barbarous age, inconsistent with the refined and enlightened policy of a civilized nation, and unworthy of being retained in the statute-book. He (Lord Stanley) could recollect a time when the Noble Earl did not hold the opinion that these were the charac teristics of the navigation-laws—(hear)—when, at a meeting of shipowners, at North Shields, he said it was wrong to expose the British shipowner to competition, and still subject him to restriction. It was represented, too, that Mr. Iluskisson had approved of those views of the Noble Earl, expressed at that time, which no doubt he did. Adam Smith, on the other hand, said that these laws, dictated as they were in the first instance by na tional animosity, had been produced by the utmost poli tical wisdom. He would remind the House that when this last relic of a barbarous age existed, Mr. Huskisson was bound to arty that it was based upon the highest ground of national necessity—that of providing for their defences, and of affording security to their colonial pos sessions. Adam Smith, then, thought that these laws, commenced in a feeling of national animosity, were the result of the utmost wisdom of their statesmen; Mr. Huskisson justified their policy, on the ground of high political necessity; and Earl Grey considered them the relic of a barbarous age. Between those conflicting authorities their Lordships were called upon to decide. —(Cheers and laughter.) He would now vent u re t o re . mad their Lordships of the extent of the interests upon which they were required to legislate. Ile did not believe that the tonnage of this country was so large as the Noble Marquis had stated it at, viz., 4,000,000 tons, or that the number of seamen was so large as 232,000; but of this there was no doubt, that in that trade there was embarked an amount of capital from 54,000,0004 to 60,000,0001., that it employed, beyond the seamen en gaged in it, eighty thousand artificers, which artificers divided amongst them at least 5,000,0004 in wages, and the total freight earned by these vessels was 28,600,0004 Those were merely the pecuniary considerations of the question before their Lordships ; but there was another far above them. It was the consideration of their national defences and independence, and on that question they were, he thought, nearly all agreed. That their maritime superiority, so essential to their national greatness, was dependent almost entirely on their commercial marine could not be denied.— (Hear, hear.) Their Lordships were now called upon by the Government to put these elements of their greatness in jeopardy, and to be satisfied with the argu ments of the Noble Earl and his colleagues, that they might with advantage sweep from the statute-book last vestige of these laws. He would warn their Lord ships most earnestly to be careful not to act hastily the asyet upon any such recommendations. He was would incur such astonishedl til boldness of the Ministry, w great consequence upon thehir w rd of a die. The " Noble Earl, who respected popular opinion, com mented upon the petitions from tenant-farmers, who, althought if these petitioners were Earl preaellte injured themselves, had sympathy for others, bu not exactly what the Noble m i g ht value, was that a rea son he should disregard.tthees p s e u t c t li tt , aa instance, spresented from for as that grea t commercialcommumi p re sented from Liverpool? But Liverpool was not the on ly commercial town that presented petitions; no such thing. would ask, had any commercial town p e titione ß d ut 'n! ho favour of it? Not one.—(ll.ear, hear.) The Noble Earl acted as if the commercial and ship owning interests knew nothing of this su bj ect ,— (Hear, hear.) Now, he found that all the naval men in the country declared that if - they broke down these laws, it would lead to tIP e destruc tion of the naval supremacy of this entry. The Noble Earl then adverted to the machinery got up for the presentation of petitions, and yet he could say that never was any expression of opinion mo':e spontaneous. than that which took place with reference to th.is sub.- ject. It was, however, rather inconsistent on the part of the Government to make this insinuation, ‘O, lO were ge nerally understood to have used such e•xtraordinary means to procure a majority in that Hee ds° u pon this question. It was said that the commerci a l ch uses did not understand these navigation-laws. 'There w as, how ever, one thing certain, that they did not know th at these laws wire injurious to them. It was certain ly very strange that these parties should not find 'et it in the course of their business that these laws were : inconve nient or injurious to their interests. With n !gard to the case of Canada, with reference to the effect of these laws, that was, as that colony was now placed, .an ex _ T - IrIPT"TrIeTTCrir ceptional case. It was not likely that a colony wunld petition the Queen for the restoration of protection, when that petition was to go through the hands of the Noble Earl, and ho was to advise the answer. The case, however, of Canada, was peculiar. The differ enee upon the receipts from Quebec or Montreal was never great, and between which there were very heavy charges before a vessel could enter the ocean. These amounted, upon a vessel of 350 tons, to 1751. In truth, American vessels would not go to Montreal, closed up for five months in the year with ice, when they could export their produce from New York.—(Hear, hear.) The American ships would not, and did not, compete with English ships on the river St. Lawrence. The Noble Earl referred to the firm of Holme, Young, and Knapp, stated to carry on a very profitable trade in pig iron, but stated that they were seriously injured by those obnoxious navigation-laws. He could not, however, agree in that view. This House was said to have de clared that the people of Canada were most loyal, but recommended that their feelings should not be exaspe. rated by a refusal to repeal those laws. Now these gen tlemen, on a former occasion, stated that the Canadas sure anxious for annexation with the United States, and further stated it was impossible to retain a colony upon the principles of free trade. (Hear, hear.) This was the authority upon which the Noble Earl acted to conciliate their own sub ject. in Canada, addressed by this American friendly authority. Besides, Canada was not the whole of the Northern colonies. New Brunswick and Nova Scoiia called upon them to repeal those laws, because they were shipbuilding colonies. Those cheap ships, upon which they so much relied, were of no consideration, if the peculiar situation of Canada Was Liken into account, and they desired to relax the laws with regard to Canada. That might be done without opposition from the merchants of this country, by placing Montreal in the position of having goods exported con sidered as the produce of that port. Reference had been made to the petition from Jamaica. But the curious thing of it was, that the memorial from Jamaica did not ask for a repeal of the navigation-laws. They wished to have the order of the Queen in Couacil altered—and it was not fair, in the face of such a com plaint, to say that those people complained of the navi gation-laws, against which they did not complain at all. It was quite certain that while they were acting on prin ciples of reciprocity, they gained great advantages for this country in their commerce with foreign nations. Now, with respect to British tonnage, it was quite cer tain while it had fallen off to an immense amount that of Prussia had increased to a great extent. They en joyed 1,700,000 of shipping, and in that no power could reach them, if they took care not so to alter their navi gation-laws as to hold out to them an inducement to do so. They should also take care that they did not so inter fere with the interests of their artisans in their dockyards as to discourage them, and drive them to seek a field wherein to exercise their skill and industry in other nations. It had been said that the British ship builders in this country had nothing to fear from the fact of British ships being built in foreign countries; but let him remind their Lordships that there could not be a British ship built in a foreign country without dis placing a large amount of British labour, and diverting from this country a considerable amount of British ca pital.—(Hear.) Ile warned them to take care not by any act of theirs to trench upon and injure the inte rests of the labouring poor connected with this great question; he warned them not to set ono class against another; he warned them to take care of their artisans; he warned them not to drive their British shipowners to register their ships in foreign countries; and he warned many Honourable Members of another House, who, he must say, were not on this questio❑ representing their constituents, that they would have much cause, in the event of a dissolution, to apprehend the consequences which the Noble Lord said he felt so much alarm about. He, therefore, held that question to be entirely one of giving employment to the people —to be totally separate from free trade, and their Lordships would be much mis taken if they thought that British shipowners or seamen would be satisfied with an Act passed, if it should pass, with menaces—(Cheers)—which the Noble Marquis opposite thought proper to use.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord then concluded a speech of great eloquence and power, by invoking the blessings of Providence on this country to maintain that navy which was not the strength alone, but the greatness of that empire, and on which its very existence mainly depended. The Marquis of LANSDO WNE then rose and ob served that he was not, at that hour of the night, going to obtrude on their Lordships at any length, in answer to the eloquent speech of the Noble Lord who had just sat down. The Noble Lord said, that menaces had been used, but he defied him to state when or where they were so uttered.—(Hear, hear.) When the Noble Lord made the statement, there was a general curiosity to know what those menaces were, and whether they were given in public or private. But he would take on him self to say that the words, if menace they were, would never have been used, were it not that the Noble Lord himself said, manfully certainly, but ostentatiously, that he was prepared for the consequences of a victory on that question.—(Load cheers.) All he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) said was, that if he were prepared for victory, he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) was equally prepared for a defeat, and that was the menace which was used, and which was so much exaggerated. The attention of the Government had been for some time drawn to the subject, and after two or three years' deliberation, atter successive votes of the House of Commons in its favour, the measure had come before their Lordships. flow then could the Noble Lord ac cuse Ministers of being guilty of precipitation with re ference to the present question?—(Hear.) The Noble Marquis having concluued, . _ Strangers were ordered to withdraw, when there sp pc aced— Contents Proxies 6B -- 173 Non-Contents Proxies 44 163 Majority for Ministers - 10 The result was a majority in favour of the Govern ment, and was hailed with loud cheers. Their Lordships then adjourned at a Quarter to Fir. o'clock. PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS. ,From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons.) TUESDAY, NAY 8. STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE. The following Resolution was reported from the above Committee : That in the case of the Edinburgh and Northern Railway' (Formation of Slip Quay and other Works at Granton, Ex tension of Station at Edinburgh, Regulation cf Perth Stations, and Amendment of A c t s ) p et iti on f or additional Provision, the standing orders ought to be dispensed with :-- That the parties be permitted to introduce their additional Provision if the Committee on the Bill shall think fit.-- Resolution agreed to. THE " COUNT OUT" LAST NIGHT. • . The following Members were present when the Hopleyelli counted out last night : Sir Charles Wood Sir W. Somerville Mr. Baines Mr. James Clay Sir H. Williamson Mr.Poulett Scrope Colonel Thompson Mr. Aglionby Mr. Macgregor Mr. French Mr. W. J. Fox Mr. John Williams Mr. Meagher Mr. William Fagan Mr. John O'Connell Mr. Sullivan Mr. George Thompson Colonel Rawdon Mr. Lawless Mr. Cowan Mr. W awn Mr. Pilkington Colonel Salwey Sir A.ll3rooke Mr. Duncuft Mr. Lacy Mr. Taylor Mr. Stafford Mr. Henry Herbert Lord M. Hill Mr. Moore Mr. C. W. Martin Mr. Feargua O'Connor PARLIAMENTARY OATHS BILL. PAIRS. FOR. AGAINST. Alderman Ilumphery Mr. Blair Hon. E. R. Littleton Mr. William Cubitt Mr. Peto Mr. Henry Drummond Mr. Pattison Mr. Henry Currie Sir J. M'Taggart Mr. Bateson TO THE SECRETARY OF THE METROPOLITAN REFORM ASSOCIATION. Sir,—On Monday the 7th, the Parliamentary Oaths Bill was brought forward for a second reading. The most remarkable occurrence connected with the debate, was the appearance in it of two Members new to the present Parliament. The first was the Member for Leominster, son of Sir Robert Peel, who with a full share of hereditary talent, advanced strong array of the arguments, historical and others, in favour of the liberal view of the question. The other was the new Member for Sheffield, who dropped into his place as if no malignant Jupiter had ever bata by customary rules should have been closed; r kept him from his seat. lie rose after th e was listened to with an atte ntion which scarcely an y a nd t,searis w a have xDs commanded. a M nd e ed. mberEiin h such in circumstances forman would heavy, or he did not sp eak q uite loud enou g h for the Either th e general comfort of his hearers. Nothing is so en couraging to a speaker, as the covetous silence which increases in intensity as his voice tails. But the end of all, is to be heard. It was the forte of the writer of this, twn years ago to cia scribe the Member, then for Bath, as coming with an accession of power after an interval of re tirement. And the same judgment might be ventured again. The manner is improved in smootb• nes: and conciliatory effect; and the matter presents less of the partisan, and more of the statesman. In his speech at Sheffield, the Hon. Member seems to have felt as well as indicated, that processes of this nature were going on. The second reading was finally carried by 278 against 185 ; being 20 mere majority than last :es.' sion, and in a smaller House. On Tuesday there were speeches of considerable length on a motion to bring in a Bill for the formation of joint-stock banks, with a limited liability of the shareholders ; but it was finally withdrawn, ,and et eight o'clock the House was counted out. I am, Sir, your obedient servant, AN OLD REFORMER London, May 9, 1849. LONDON HOSPITAL MEDICAL SCHOOL.—This prizes aw arded for the past session were distributed on Tuesday by Mr. Char les B. Stutfield in the presence Li a large body of spectators; the gold medals presented by the governors were presented to the pupils distinguished for zeal and intelligence. At the conclusion of the die. tribution Mr. Stutfield delivered an able and eloquetti addres4 to the successful competitors. 1