The Sun. — London, England, 1849-05-09 00:00:00

often deprived ourselves of a mettle , : of ehort voyeges. In our anxiety to gresp everytheg for ote - seiv:s t very one else, includeee our teen COluntes, so le:- comfortable an to drive them to the neees•ity of adoptine measures of counteraction and resistance against us, if we did not pave the way to more overt acts of hostility; and instead of appropriating to ourselves the resources of all other countries, we created a host oF artificial cliffi • culties, and succeeded in rendering the eeealt inure hos tile even then the ancient poets had described it (Hear, hear.) It had been said that the navigation-laws succeeded in making the mercantile marine a nursery for the royal navy, and that the modern system of steam navigation required a larger number of hands to be t rained. But he thought it would be found that the navy did not draw so large a proportion of the hands it employed from the mercantile marine. however, they were to rely en deriving considerable assistance from the mercantile navy, be thought there was little fear of the result when he found the increase of British seamen from 1823 to 1847 had been from 165,000 to 2 52,000—(Hear, hear)—and when he found that, in British ships, the tonnage had increased 10 per cent. With these facts before him, he could not but entertain a very confident hope that we might still rely upon ob taining an adequate number of ineu from our mercantile marine towards the manning of our national navy. It had been said that there was a disposition in the mer cantile marine not to take an adequate number of ap prentices; but so far from that being the case, there were 10,000 more apprentices in the mercantile navy than were required by the Provisions of the navigation-laws. --(Hear, hear.) Then it was contended that it was im possible for British shipowners to compete with foreign shipowners; but upon many grounds he must dispute that proposition. If they considered the strength and durability of British ships as compared either with the well-constructed ships of the United States, or the more cheap, but less enduring ships of liussia and the power, of northern Europe, he thought, whichever side of the comparison they took, they would find that the British shipowner did not suffer any material disadvantage, not withstanding the greater expense of construction. Several gentlemen who had been examined before the Committee had proved this fact. " Mr. Winter; of America, was asked, In what re spect should you consider that a ship can be built cheaper in America than in England; where would be the saving?—The only item in shipbuileing which, to my knowledge, is cheaper in America than in England, is wood, and this, for ships built in New York, has to bear heavy transportation, much of the timber being brought by sea from Virginia and Florida, and the plank from Lake Erie, a distance of 500 miles. The iron is imported from England, and pays a duty of 30e, beside: , the expense of importation. Copper is also much higher than in England, and wages are nearly double.' " Mr. Graham, the secretary of Lloyd's, says—' The first-class British ships are the best ships in the world, and are superior to American ships.' " Captain Briggs states that such ships as he has Spoken of, costine 20/. per ton, Would not stand A 1 for twelve years. The Americans have no ships that would stand A 1 for twelve years in this country.' ' A ship could be built in England quite as cheaply as in America, and an English ship always stands longer than an American ship.' " You can build a twelve years' ship in England, and fit her entirely for sea, as cheaply as yuu can build an American ship of ten years.' " As to the North, it was said— very opposite of all these predietiors weld r suit tr in the measure beicre the lieu e, h shituiti be the last man amongst their Lordships to propose or support it. lie trusted that he Teed placed a just estimate on the !level power of Great Britain, as well as on her mercantile merino, and that he was as alive as any of their Lordships to the vast impor • of maintaining in full vigour the netienal importance fleets, which at the moment whey " Rate Britannia" bad been sung in the streets of Paris were net likely to be abandoned to decay. But he did not anticipate any in • jury to the efficiency of the Briti-li navy from the pre sent measure. Neither did he apprehend any danger to the national defences from its becoming law. On the contrary, it was that, in his opinion, the effect of the measure would give increased employment to seamen, and intuse invigoration into the trade, reat,u'actures, and commerce of Great Britain, that he supported it; and it was by instituting tow rewards for this industry of the community, and by developing the resources of employ ment for shipping, that the best guarantees would be found for the permanence of the national defences— detences which had hitherto been sufficient to render England the mistress of the seas, end by the blessing of God would long continue to maintain her in that poti tion.—(Cheers.) Earl NELSON could not help expressing his surprise that the Noble Marquis who brought the Bill forward should have looked with disdain on the expression of the public opinion and at the petitions which had been pre sented against the Bill. For his own part he believed that the opposition shown to the Bill out of doors had been elicited by a very g , neral apprehension as to its effects upon the naval power of Great Britain. As to the retaliatory clauses which the Bill contained, they could never be enforced, and the first step after it be came law, would be to repeal those causes. He would now advert to the opinions held by a person whose me mory had been brought to their Lordship's recollection by the Noble Earl opposite, who had connected the battle of Trafalgar with the cause of the success which had subsequently to that victory attended the British mercantile marine. He must assert that the distiu guished man whose name he had the honour to bear, and whose memory deserved to be revered in that place (Eh ar)—entertained opinions on the subject of the navigation-laws which well merited their Lordships' at tention. Although Lord Nelson had been dead many years his memory was not forgotten, and although the navigation laws had since he lived undergone great changes, still the principle remained the same as iu his eay. He could not forget that Lord Nelson disobeyed orders and subjected himself to trial by court-martial' in his determination to tuaintain the spirit of the naviga tion-laws iu the West Indies. He pursued the same line of policy at Copenhagen, and he had manifested the deepest anxiety to spare the bloodshed which had oc curred at that city, in which he might have succeeded, could he have got his fleet away in time from Yarmouth Roads. Lord Nelson would never have been able to make good the national defences of England in the year 1801 lied not the navigation-laws existed; for where could he have found sailors, or whence would England have procured her commercial navy, but by means of these lawn? It was all very well to talk of peaceful ar bitrations; but, even supposing all the nations of Europe ',greed to resort to that mode of settling disputes, what security was there that some master spirit should not rise up and force on a war, and how could the British nation be safe if she had not a naval force? Before he sat down he would call upon the Right Rev. Bench to resist the present Bill, because he saw in it the sure sources of an increase in the slave-trade. He called upon such of their Lordships as were free traders, to re• silt it, because it was an imperfect measure, and must soon be amended. He called upon all who had the in terest of their country at heart to oppose the measure, and to trust to the experh nee of the past, rather than to the vague promises which were founded on imprac ticable arid unsound theeries. Earl BRUCE said that there never had been a mea sure which he had a more perfect conviction was a right one than the present. If he thought the Bill would impair the naval efficiency of the United Kingdom, he would be the last man to support it. It had been ar gued by the opponents of the present measure that it was better to leave things Ste they were. But he.hegged to say, things could not be left as they were. The colonies had lust the protection which they formerly. enjoyed, and it was natural for them to seek to indem nity themselves by extending their commerce and ship ping, and by obtaining fresh outlets fur their produc tions and industry. Earl TALBOT said, that in the first place there was not the slightest necessity for this measure; and, in the second place, even were it desirable in any point of view, its effect upon what should be our most cherished inte rest would be so deeply injurious that it ought never to have been entertain( d by the Legislature. The fact was, that this measure was nothing more nor less than another attack upon our best institutions, by that free trade party who, having got rid of the corn-laws, had determined " to have go" at the navigation-laws, which in the first instance they had pronounced against. He was quite favourable to reciprocity where reciprocity could be tairly effected, but he must protest against giving every thing and getting nothing in return. The Earl of WALDEGRAVE next addressed the House, but in so low a tone of voice that none of his ob servations reached the gallery. The Earl of HARROWBY said that, before he ad dressed their Lordships on the subject before the House, he wished to say a few words in reference to the obser vations of his Noble and Learned Friend respecting an Hon. Friend of his, a Member of the other blouse cf Parliament, whose character had been alluded to last night by his Noble and Learned Friend. The charge brought against the Hon. Member for Liverpool (Mr. Cardwell) by his Noble Friend was, that he had acted inconsistently with the pledges he made to the electors of Liverpool in voting for the repeal of the navigation laws. His Noble and Learned Friend was mistaken iu ,upposing that any such pledge was made. The Noble Lord here referred to the circumstances attending the late election for Liverpool, and quoted some documents from which it appeared that Mr. C1e,r ,1 .- -21 -*.o- 4 he measure winch he thought would injuriously affect the maritime and naval supremacy of this country, that he would wait for the result of the Committee which was sitting on the subject of the na vigation-laws, and that he should consider himself per feetly free and unfettered as to the course be should pursue in reference to their repeal. Upon this state of facts he was sure their Lordships would acquit the Honourable Gentleman of the charge which his Noble Ind Learned Friend brought against him.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the question before the House, he felt all the difficulty of engaging their Lordships' attention upon a subject which had been already so much discussed. Ile did not consider the principle of free trade and the principle of protection as two absolute principles of right and wrong—that they were the principles of good and evil, and were to be applied absolutely without any regard to other circumstances. He considered that the principle of protection might be required in some cir cumstances for a great interest, and in other circum " A Hamburgh vessel, from 200 to 500 tons, iron fastened and coppered, costs, ready for sea, about i l /. a .t,9,n. She stands seven years A l , and no more. The znglish ship costs 201. a ton, stands twelve years A 1, and four years more, making sixteen years. The Ham burgh ship, therefore, stands nine years less on the first letter than the English ship. We deduct, as before, 11. a ton for each year, and we find the English and the Hamburgh ship are tke same cost. We have yet to con sider the expense of navigation. " It is, therefore, fair to assume that the English ves sel, as far as regards its durability, is worth, as com pared with the colonial vessel, in the proportion of 22 to 7." If any other proof be wanted that foreigners have no advantage over England in the build and navigation of ships, we have it in the fact that when the shipping trade is depressed, and freights non-remunerative, the British shipowner is not the first' to let his ship lie rotting in harbour, and the sailors till the workhouse. The contrary is notoriously the tact. In those years of depressioa the foreigner is the first to lay up his vessel." "The Parliamentary returns prove, beyond all manner of doubt, that on every recurrence of distress in,shipping there is a great comparative decrease of foreign and a corresponding increase of British vessels employed in the foreign trade." Did not this stand to reason, in addition to the assertions of competent well-informed men, when they considered the resources from which shipbuilding was supplied ? We furnished the iron, we manufactured their chains, we furnished their sheet copper, their sails and cordage, upon all of which articles they had pay duty, while we only had to pay duty on our timber; and it was stated by competent witnesses that the British shipbuilder had only to pay duty at the rate of 3s. 6d. per ton, having too at our command the best timber in the world. The attention of their Lordships had been called to the in crease of steam navigation, and ho would ask what nation could fit out steam-vessels as we could ? It might be confidently asserted that in nu clue of shipping, and least of all in steam and iron built vessels, could this country be said to stand on a dis advantage with any other country in the world.—(Hear, hear.) And when we had swept away the last imp:elect remains of protection which we still reteinel under the navigation-laws, we should be in a still prouder posi tion. And he could not but think that his Noble Friend the President of the Council had met with unjust censure, when he was reproached fur having sp , ken 1 31 the existing navigation 'laws as shreds and patches. Why, what were the terms in which the former advo cates of monopoly—the most obstinate adherents to the navigation-laws—spoke of those laws since the passing of the reciprocity treaties? 14r. Yu nit said wes inauequate wnere tnese treaties of re ciprocity existed that it could scarcely be called protec tion st all.—(Hear, hear.) But he was not without hope that the final and complete removal of monopoly in these matters would have the effect which almost invariably attended similar branches of industry and emplcy went —that it would stimulate exertion and lead the way to improved methods and more economical modes et manegement. He disclaimed the invidious task of exa mining the short-comings and defects of our mercantile marine; but it would he unwise to pride ourselves too much on its efficiency and perfection, because he feared there was mu h connected with the seamen, the sani tary state of the ships, and the qualification of masters, that loudly called fur amendment. The Noble and Learned Lord had alluded to a work entitled " Two Years before the Mast," and he had heard opinions expressed on this subject by the author of that work. He had not long made his acquaintance with out knowing that any opinion which he received from him, if liable to mistake, would have been sincere and straightforward. Mr. Dana had had long experience iu observing vessels in the Bay of St. Francisco, and hr said he thought the British sailor was a more thorough sea creature than their own American seamen—that in fact he was the best seaman in the world; but with re. spect to the masters of merchant vessels, he thought the American captains were better educated, more generally accomplished, and better instructed in those specific branches of acquirement most necessary fur them.— (Rear, hear.) The American ships compete with the cheapest built ships in the world; we could, with regard (0 strength and durability, build ships as cheap, and beat the American ships in the ports of the United States. That country, which could always present the largest Lumber of ships, and offer the lowest rate of freight, Must in the end st cure the great proportion of the carry ing trade of the world.—(Hear, hear.) This was what gave their envied ascendancy to the Dutch. Low rates of freight would do for the traffic of the ships of the sea what low rat es o f t rave lli ng did on s h ore , th e y wou ld create traffic where none appeared to have been wanting before they w ou ld suggest wants w hi c h h a d no been felt before; and not content with suggesting, they would satisfy them.—(H ear , h ear .) So that, consider ing that the repeal of th e nav i gat i on laws would confer advantages on the foreigners, it they liked—assuming that in some particular p a i n t s we s h ou ld b e placed on terms of disadvantage with reference to them sharp competition wou ld ensue , yet, believingin e t u b d e t i h m a - t im pulse always g i ven t o t ra d e who n restraint was le ssene d, and believin g i n th e rebounding elasticity of British tr a d e to' meet all rivalry , he cou ld t doubt tha e t we should e secure by far the l argest proport i on of th traffic of the world.—(Ch eers .) H e cou ld believe' mercantile traffic system of exclusion and monopoly such as our na t vi a g t a a don code might have appeared plausible when our power was confined within narrower limits—but now, when there was no section or region of the world in which we had not visited the shores and occupied the seas from the Cape to Oregon, from Newfoundland to New Zealand, every obstacle, every impediment, was multi. plied ten-fold with regard to our own shipping, that of our colonies, and all the countries with which we had any communication.—(gear, hear.) By our own prowess, and enterprise and activity, we had so dotted the glebe, that to interrupt our traffic between our colonies and the rest of the world would be to make our legislation t 3 an extent which it bad never been before, a universal nuisance. —(Hear, hear.) lie had endeavoured to lay the chief stress on the advantages which a ri laxation of the navigation-laws would confer o n our commerce; but he w as not blind to the colonial pa rt of the question, us that which m os t immediately pressed on th e attention of the Legisl ature . Th e way in which he reg arded and e xplain e d th e i n di spos i t i on of the mercantile body to any Bach changesobse as the present was, that h e had g enerally r ued suits had when men of particular occupations a nd pur been long addicted to them, and had acquired are intimate by whi knowledge of the intricacies and difficulties averse to measures these pursuits were surrounded, they were Pursui t , tmeasures which tended to throw open their to.retain all the the world, and became strongly disposed to. He the difficulties which they were accustomed geometry must say that he believed if a royal road to would b e could be discovered, that discovery luctance to °Pposed by geometricians from a re to all the see their favourite pursuit thrown open patient attention world. Thanking their Lordships for the with wleich they had listened to him, Ile would the only further remark that whilst he antici patedaeigstio greatest benefits from the abolition of the nations of the by f ac ilit a ting the intercourse of the the world, a nd by the enrichment of this c eN °a atrY with harmless wealth ; wealth which the Noble wart opposite had last evening denounced, hut e hich as U nobjectionable when acquired by peaceful modes, "ill he • diet , n could not listen quietly to-that Noble Earl's pro of ,ta si that the acquirement of wealth by the abolition h e '_ av navigation-laws would be attended with injury to co ,2* al pewer of England, with a deterioration of her ter '' , etcial marine, and with danger to her national in 'BtS . 0 . f oph i . I e ing hi to in ns ,• if h he did could not br on the mself contrary enterta thiek that the tries on ths Gthor side of the Channel, namely, of the repeated voyages of steam vessels between this country an'd :1 merit), and also the stem •boat, communication bstween the United States and Canada through the lakes. Ho did not wean to impute to Mr. Porter any other design in making these representations than that which led an individual, who was an enthusiast in any cause, to hazard extraordinary assertions in support of it.— (Ilear, he'tr) Mach bad been said with regard to the indirect trade. That trade consisted only of fragments of voysges. For example, a vessel which was on its way to Odessa would stop at Turkey and then proceed on its course. Such voyages e ere not entire trans actions—they were only incidental to the greater ones. It was said that by opening this trade they would obtain a share in a future trad. In point of fact they were promised a share of that of which they had now the entirety.—(Hear.) If the Bill were passed, the vessels of this country would, by the Ist of January next, he brought into immediate competition with those of every other country in the world, and he did not know how is was possible by that period to obtain equivalent advantages. lie fully admitted the difficultie s which surrounded the case as regarded the colonies, and that was the only question which had caused him the least hesitation on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) It was, how ever, admitted by his Noble Friend opposite that the grievance of Canada might be redressed by other means than the repeal of the navigation-laws.—(Hear.) Look ing at the question as one which involved tree trade, the defences of the country, and therefore its very existence, he could not be a party to tho repeal of the navigation laws; and he must, the ref ore, support the amendment of his Noble Friend. Lord BROUGHAM, in explanation, said he wished it to be understood that in what he had stated respecting Mr. Cardwell he bad not the slightest wish to assail that respectable gentleman.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble and Learned Lord was proceeding to give a detail of circum stances explanatory of what he had referred to, when Earl GREY reminded the Noble and Learned Lord that he had risen simply in explanation. Lord BROUGHAM said that was true; but when a gentleman was blamed for misrepresenting another he was allowed a large latitude in explanation. The Noble and Learned Lord then gave a detail of the circum stances attending the election of Mr. Cardwell for Liver pool, as justifying him in the extent he had gone in the observations he had made respecting that gentleman. lie had thought it right, he added, to say so much in explanation of the matter, on the ground that as it was ' right " to let well alone," it was sometimes right to leave ill alone, fur tear it should be made worse.—(Laughter.) Lord WHARNCLIFFE and several Peers rose at the same time, but being loudly called for the latter gave way, and his Lordship proceeded. They were not to look on the question as one standing by itself, but rather as one connected with the defences of the country, and they should not give it their support unless they could satisfy themselves that the repeal of the navigation laws would not endanger the naval supremacy of the country.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord here referred to a statement which he said had been made, that five per cent. of the whole number of men in the royal navy were taken from the merchant service; but he found that assertion had been completely refuted, and that there was nut less than one-half supplied from the mercantile marine to the royal navy; and he would here observe that there was no possibility of denying the argument that the supremacy of the naval power was mixed up with the upholding of the mercantile navy. —(Hear, hear.) The real and essential question which they had to deal with was, whether in repeal big these laws they were withdrawing that support from those who upheld the naval system of the country, to which they were entitled, and which it was necessary they should have. There was some difficulty in dealing with the question. If they referred to the evidence on the subject, they found it was full of the most conflicting statements.—(Hear, hear.) It was of importance to see the light in which the question was viewed by foreign countries. It appeared that the Noble Lard the Secre tary of State for Foreign Affairs (Lord Palmerston) had directed the Ministers of this country to make inquiries of foreign powers, so as to ascertain the feeling that ex isted on the subject. First, as regarded Belgium, they found it was admitted by that country that no Belgian vessel could compete with British. With regard to America, there was no reasonable doubt of our ships being able to compete with those of that country. It was unquestionable that on almost every item, except that of timber, the American shipbuilder had to pay dearer than the English shipbuilder; and even the timber itself was only obtainable : . cheaper in some of the American ports. Another important fact with regard to the northern countries of Europe was this, that though they had the power of building vessels much cheaper than us, the greater part of those built in Sweden and Norway were built expressly for the timber trade, and were unfit for anything else. On other questions precisely the same assurances of the impossibility of our competing with foreign nations had been made; and they had uniformly received a complete falsification. At one time the linen trade of Ireland was protected and encouraged by bounties ; when these bounties were removed nothing less than ruin to the g trade n w g as a R a n t l i i c a i e p a a - t m e d a a ; a b fa u c t t a s i r n i li e g e that ri t a i t m s e of the efllaanxd had been among theostramidetihsttehpearxotsrppaoderretouowsfo. uwihdAagtbaeiwnte,hrwreohwecnnaltlehde bountylong wools,was t taken w as en tirely into the hands of foreigners ; but notwithstand ing the alteration our own trade had gone on Increasing. In 1824 the same predictions were made in refer ence to the silk manufacturer ; it was said that by ad mitting French silks we should completely destroy our own trade, and that it was impossible for our manufac turers to compete successfully with those of France. What had been the result? In 1823, the year before the change, the raw silk imported into this country for consumption was only about 2,400,0001b5., while in 1847 it was 411- millions. The value of the silk manufactures actually exported from this country was, in 1832, 529,0001. declared value; while in 1847, notwithstanding a great decrease in the vale. .e t h n 948,0001 had been the result of all gloomy predictions, their Lordships would be justified in disregarding them, if not in treating them as absolutelyfalse.—(Be ar , hear.) When they heard strong opinions expressed by the witnesses before the Committees, they were justified in looking at the cha racter and occupation of those witnesses, and in some cases it would appear their evidence was not quite so conclu sive as might be supposed. A Mr. Coker, a merchant of Liverpool, had been examined before their Lordships' Committee with respect to competition between this country and America; and he said, "I consider that the Americans, taking them as a people, are far superior to Englishmen."—(Hear, hear.) Not content with this, he added that emigrants from this country, transferred to the American soil, improved in bodily condition.— (Laughter.) He (Lord Wharncliffe) absolutely rejected this assertion; be believed no such thing. If there was one feature in the question more important than an other, it was the effect of the reciprocity treaties. The Noble Lord having read a statement of the amount -, a - stances he thought that the principle of free trade ought of British tonnage in the ten years previous to the to be applied. And if there was any one subject in reciprocity treaties, and ten years subsequently, said eference to which this distinction should be observed it it was quite clear that whatever effect the navigation was that of the navigation-laws. They never had in laws might have had before those treaties were con tact rested long on one point with regard to them. They eluded, the same causes would have produced the had altered them from time to time; but in all these same effect after they were concluded. There had changes they had stedfastly kept in view the prin- been a constant and gradual increase in the navigation ciplo of reserving to themselves the large basis of a of this country; and the fair presumption was, that commercial marine, on which to rest the superstruc- if they relaxed the system still further, they would reap lure of the naval power of this country.—(Hear, hear.) still further advantages from it. They were not only l'he maintenance of their maritime and naval supre justified, but called upon, by every feeling of justice and macy was something distinct from and superi or to mere policy, to remove unnecessary restrictions, and upon that commercial interests, and when they had to decide be- ground he supported this Bill. The point in it on which tween the two it was necessary that the letter should he felt the greatest difficulty was the 10th clause, em give way.—(Bear.) His Noble Friends opposite allowed powering her Majesty to restrict the privilege of foreign that this was a just view. The question, therefore, was, ships in certain cases. He saw an objection to that whether this was a measure dangerous to their naval course, and thought that an easier one might be adopted; supremacy, and whether, without the aid of these laws, but he did not on that account consider himself justified they could maintain that supremacy. A great quantity in opposing the Bill. Looking to the dispatch of Lord of statistics had been brought forward to show that the Palmerston of December 22, in the papers laid before repeal of the navigation-laws would not affect their them, he took it for granted that her Majesty's Govern supremacy at sea, but the way in which these sta- ment would see that in relaxing the navigation-laws for attics had been prepared tended rather to obscure the benefit of foreign shipping the same advantages than to throw light on the question at issue. would be secured to this country. Although not satis- The statistics to which he referred had been got up by tied with the prospective alteration in the 10th clause, a gentleman connected with the Board of Trade, with yet, with the confidence he felt in the intention with whom he was on terms of private intercourse, but of which it had been inserted, he should, at this stage, give whose returns on this subject a sense of public duty his support to the Bill. He again entreated their Lords compelled him to say what he thought.—(Hear, hear.) In ships to watch narrowly all the bearings of the proposis the first place, any person who read these papers must Lion which by this stage of the Bill they were now called see that they wer e produced for the purpose of operating on to affirm; and whilst they regarded it as a great ex on the public mind in regard to this question. These perimental measure, the necessity for which he was not returns had reference to the results of the free trade prepared to say could be altogether disproved, to re measures of the last few years, with regard to that member that it was one in the peculiar operation of part of their trade which was now practically unpro- which the welfare and stability of British interests of the tected. But they were produced not on a question of most extensive and important character were deeply in trade, but on a question e f navigation. Now, it they volved. For the reason, however, he bad assigned, he were not valuable as a guide upon a question of naviga- felt himself bound to vote for the secondreading —(Cries tion they should not have been produced at all.—(Hear.) of " Question.") A large mass of figures had been produced under the The Marquis of LONDONDERRY regarding this Bill head of unprotected trade to show that they could, as as one of the most dangerous experiments ever intros appeared from the experience of the last few years, en- duced into the House, he had risen to give it his streau gage without danger in competition with all the nations ous opposition. of the world; but on looking closely into the subject it Earl GREY said, that in rising to enforce upon the was found that of this nominally unprotected trade the House, to the best of his ability, the importance of the larger p ort i on was practically protected, and that there measure which was now before it, he would endeavour, was not that free and open intercourse which alone was as briefly as he could, to set before their Lordships the the question at issue. —(Hear.) They were told that grounds un which this measure was founded.—(Hear.) they could compete without protection with foreign lie must acknowledge that his own confidence in the countries—that they could compete with the mercantile soundness of these principles, and in the merits of the marine of China, of Sumatra and Java, the Mexican Bdl now submitted to the judgment of their Lordships, States, and South America. They were told , they could had . been greatly increased by the whole text of this compete with Russia, which had but small navigating evening's debate. Fur, notwithstanding the great array power and little taste for maritime pursuits that they g of talent which had been marshalled against this mea could compete with Turkey—with Austria, which had but sure by itsopponents, and t h e a bili ty displayed in a limited sea frontage. T ne result t o w hi c h t h ese papers resisting the motion, no on e w h o h a d care f ul l y wouldlead their Lordships,in consequenceofth ec l ass ifi ca . listened to the speeches which had been delivered by don adopted and the headings given, was that they Noble Lords in opposition to th e Bill could have failed could compete with all these countries, one by one. t o perce i ve how large a proportion of the matter they This was one part of these documents. The other part comprised had been utterly irrelevant to the main guess of this unprotected trade, the result e of which would go don that had been submitted for their Lordship'semconhsaid to satisfy them that they noultdionomrepeerter,eduntoproFtected, dherantisioituig,otti.ainadrihyoywagumeu,cahadofwathhetinregminainpdreereiosfhatuh with foreign nations , . in d i N iav e i ti g l , t a lian , s, r d and the United nilce rectness ee and o a f 2.rehigand affairs, a ttud dis t etu a isi m ti a o h n ag e e n m t e h n e t di- Germany, the U nite statement.—(Cheers.) Their Lordships from se N nt o a b s le pect p Slates. The tonnage of England was stated at n t 6,00u0t present whilst a from a Noble and tons, whilst that of France was only 262,000 to B there was no note appended —nothing whatever to indi- ut our foreign relations cite t o t hem that this supermritlytoefomEngland was owing Learned Lord they had heartdhat n mu e s lo t r ea e vi n en t s hu t ei a d t e e d m lt e .h il e t comprehended the vast tit the most secret counsels toward Go ard v s e tint Italy,—(A ) e • n .. 1 o ( f A . F l r a a ti n g c ' h, and cries of to steam-bow navigation—that variety of steam-vessels which made cons H ta e n a t r, at h id ea r r e .) - itrehseandt I p i h e r p s u u b e l d ic pealed passages across the y Channel.—( Now, this could not be called an increase iu the tonnage " Hear.") The Noble and Learned Lord had talked as h that was the impres sion if the real desi g ns of th e Republic and its President i n e w ,f hi stia i -g t ehi e n s g e vessels, paprs salt w g o ' u u l u d create in their Lordship's dispatching an ( army thither h a d b een di st i nctly stated minds.—(fleas, hear.) Theytrade ad were .r e also told there was a to him. lie Earl Grey) was b oun d to suppose that great increase in the open with the United States; t his must have been the cas e from the unhesitating man but they were never told that if they examined the sub . ner in which the Noble and Learned Lo r d h a d endea juct, the Decrease of the vessels of the the fears that s ome part i es m i ght enter- G. ; still greatcr.—(Cheets.) They were t o t ala h l er y eal object of that army ' s d est i nat i on, and dn,ted that t S h , v tonnage engagLct in the open unprotected trade ette3t with sri t vi the sa Ils tau re. the probable results of its being so dispatched. But if i u h as d to to be- Loid, he (Earl Grey) must be allowed to say that it United States amoun t, d, in 1846, to 811,000 tons. this honour had been done ,to the Noble and Learned Those who w( re acquainted with the intercourse any confidence that had been so t wee n th e t wo co ut arte, must have been startled at such was but a sorry return to make for it to promulgate —(Laughter and cheers.) Their 1 a ttt" , m( nt- Here, sgain, it was found on inquiry, that much it, the same en trusted to him. I this amount ot tonna.re was made up publicly in that Howe I way us the tonnage between this country and the coup- Lordships have heard, on both sides, a great deal about the extreme importance of maintaining oar commercial marine, and ti.e danger of any measure calculated to weaken or diminish an arm so essential to _ she 'welfare and power of this nation.—(llear, hear.) point lie, for cue, could only say teat he was not Orr this last aware what was the ground ou which any apprehen sion was based of any such danger to that commercial marine. —(Hear, hear.) He sincerely believed, that in the event of this Bill passing, our commercial marine, of all the other national interests of the country, would be that whose stability it would mcst contribute to.—(Hear.) But the whole question before the House really was, whether the measure now before their Lordships was calculated to produce those effects which her Majesty's Ministers, in bringing it forward proposed to realise from it, or those which its adversaries supposed would had heard from Noble L or d s on so great a variety (?f certainly flow from it. All th e declamation the House . other topics—(much as it was calculated to grant) , their Lordships by the opportunity it afforded to Noble speakers to display their great oratorical talent)—was beside the real qu e stio n . A s t o all other grounds on which the matt e r n o w un d er di sc ussion bad been opposed —they were but so much matter out of place —so much breath thrown away—so much gunpowder where there was no enemy t o di re ct it against —so muec in 'act of the time of that Ho use (as far.as any practical i object or business was concerned) wasted.—( Hear, hear.) He must repeat, then—for it was of great ira - portance to bear in mind th e s i m pl e point raised by the . motion for the second re a di ng — t h a t the only question their Lordships were called to pronoun ce upon was, whether or nut the measure proposed was calculated to benefit and advance th e great i n terests c f this commer cial country. He was prepared to prove that it woul d give strength and st a bili ty to that mercantile marine by the passing of the measure before the House. But when it was contended that such a measure would put in jeopardy its futur e p rosper i ty, and that o f the other greatinterests inseparably connected with it, he begged Noble Lords to recollect that the system of laws which it went to repeal was, in fact, but a fragmentary o ne, for a large po r ti on o f those navigation laws was repealed by Mr. Huskisson in 1821 and 1827. He could not just as that o ur countrymen would prove themse l ves as well able to cope with foreign competition at sea— which heretofore had been proverbially considered the home of Englishmen as on land; and in all that regarded a mercantile marine, they would establish the same superiority Over all rivalry, as their industry and enterprise had long s i nce established with regard to ma nufactures. it The Noble E ar l t h en p ro ceeded to re mark that had be en hi s fortune ever s i nce he first occupied a position in the House of Commons—now, unhappily for him, very many years ago, as far back as 1821—to hear arguments against measures like the pre sent so exactly similar to those vdhich had been brought forward that night, that they might very well have passed, notwithstanding the difference of dates, for those which the present motion had elicited.—(Hear, hear.) For example, in 1826-27, precisely the same arguments were raised in the s p eec h es t h en uttere d in opposition to Mr. Huskisson's measures. And it was really marvellous, after the crushing refutation they bad at that time received in the answers given to them by that great man, that they sh ou ld now b e resnci tated, when it might have been reasonably ima gined that they had been all of them laid for ever at rest. The difficulty which he felt in arguing this question was to meet antagonists who were inconsistent an d indis tinct. If they told him in what respect the navigation laws advantaged British shipowners, he should know how to meet them; but, in the absence of that, he could only refer to the provisions of the law, an d as k wh i ch of them it was that was so desirable. Did the British ship owner gain much from that provision which prohibited the importation of the produce of Asia, Africa, or America, from any port in Europe? I t was to h i m utterly incomprehensible in what way a l aw cou ld b ene• fit the shipowners of this country, which said that an American ship might bring the produce of N ew O r l eans to England; but that an English ship should not bring it from Havre. What did the shipowner gain by a law which said he should not, in a British ship, bring Bra zilian rosewood , from ,Hamburgh,. but, wh e n it was made into furniture,, tie Dutch ship might bring it? 'That was not protection to the British shipowner, but to the German furniture-maker. It was a restric tion bearing equally upon our own shippi ng an d t h e shipping of foreign countries.—(Hear, hear.) Another provision was very much of the same chara c t er , w hi c h prohibited the importation of certain enumerated arti cles being the produce of Europe, except in our own ships, or in the ships of the country of which those articles were the produce. Now, upon what principle was the enumeration settled ? It appeared to him to be very much like chance. Why one article was to be prohibited and another not, be could not see. They pro hibited masts, tar, oils, corn or grain, and a variety of other articles; but while they prohibited corn or grain, they admitted flour. In the s ame w ay the whole range of foreign manufactures was not to uched , for mi ght import mght import from France or Hamburgh , in the ships of any nation, any manufactured goo ds . But if the principle were good, why not extend it ? And again, he asked, on what grounds was the enumeration made ?—(Hear, hear.) Then, again, the rule was established that we were to import the majority of goods either in British ships or in ships of the country of which they were the produce. On what p rinci p le was that prohi bition made? Did that secure the British shipowner from competition? Not at a l l. In importing corn from D an t z ic we were left in full competition with the Prus sian shipowner. So , in importing from America, we were left to compete with American ships. In fact, in every case, we were left to compete with that rival whom we had the most reason to fear. The perversity of such a law he could not understand. It left the shipowner exposed to full competition with America between New York and England, but saved him from competition with the America between Dantzic and England.—(Hear.) These were the main provisions of the navigation-laws. There was very little else in them; and those were what he now called on their Lorst.etp. Thos. , z , gnz o t, ri g ht. or they might be wrong: but, at all events, he totally denied that they afforded the slightest protection to the British shipowner. And, more than that, the shipowners had said so themselves, because, when it was a question of reciprocity, they always said " if you allow th a t, we s h a ll b e ex posed t o complete competiti on; we shall be utterly ruined, and there will be an e nd t o B r i tish shipping. " That was what was said 20 and 25 years ago . F ortuna t e ly, however, the riffairs of this country were di recte d by me n who knew the interests of the shipowners much better than they knew their o wn; for if they had had t h e i r own way they w ou ld h ave impeded and restr i cte d commerce, and by compelling each country to send out in ballast to i ts neighbour, in order to bring back the produce in h er own ships,' they would have been making two ships d o t h e work of one. Would that, he asked, have been a ben e fi t to th e s hipowner ? These capricious restricti ons upon our own s hippi ng , as well as on the shipping of foreigners, were what really constituted the n av i gat i on-laws. To say t h at we should lose nothing by repealing those laws—to say that there was no possible danger in removing these re- , strictions—was, as it appeared to him, greatly under stating the fact. What he said was, that the British shipowner was deeply interested in getting rid of these laws with the least possible delay.—(Hear, hear.) Let him remind them that the Noble Earl the Vice-Presi dent of the Board of Trade told them on the previous night that the great part of the wealth of this country arose from our warehousing system. B ut were th e y ignorant that if they retained these laws upon the statute-book, the warehousing system must be destroyed ?—(Hear, hear.) If f ore i gn na ti o ns ap plied to us the principles of monopoly involved in that barbarous and disgr ace f u l statute—for so he must term it—the warehousing system was at an end. We refused to take from Hamburgh, or from Rotterdam, or any great continental port, the produce of Asia, Africa, or America. If the same principle were applied to us, our warehousing system would be ruined. In the same way we refused to allow foreign shipping to be engaged in the indirect trade of this county—we would not allow a Russian ship to bring American goods to this count r y; but if the same rule w ere app li e d to us, de structive of that indirect trade which was of such import ance to us. We would no longer be able to carry sugar f from Rio to St. Petersburgh. The Noble Earl (Earl o corn from "frag ments of voyages." But our ships would . not be able Harrowby) spoke in a contemptuous tonieCawboouultd..be t o o de c s o s m a ! How did w et i e th: we do it, however ? We took out a cargo, perhaps of ou t h o ß o s u e s Russian ships eots inof voyages. How coals, or of some other not very profitable cargo, to Con. stantinople, or Malta, or somewhere in the Mediterra nean, where again we got some small freight, at a low charge, to Odessa, and thus assisted we were able to bring corn from Odessa; but, under other circumstances, if we bad to go out direct to Odessa in ball ast, i t would be impossible for us to bring anything f rom that port, i n competition with Russian ships.—(lle ar .) R ussia had already passed a law by which the ships of foreign na tions coming to her ports were to be exposed to the same restrictions to which her ships were subjected by the law of thosenations. For the present, the treaty which we had with Russia relieved us from the operation of the Russian law. That treaty would expire in 1853; and a hen it expired, we knew that Russia would apply to us the same rule we applied to her: we should lose this indirect trade, which was of so much value; we s h ould cut up the warehousing system, which was one of the main props and supports of our trade. It was the same with Germany, Austria, the United States, and various other countries, What we gave to them we s h ould have in return. It might surprise some of their Lordships that it was this statute which was the main diffi cu l ty i n competing with the American shipowner. By the law of the United States, the ships of all for e i gn countries which subject e d them to certain restrictions were not allowed to carry to the ports of the U n it e d S tates any prod uce b u t th e i r own . This law being in force, we came within the nations to which this prohibi tion of the U n it e d St a te s applied ; we could carry nothing to the United States but our own produce; we could not make up an assorted cargo. The United States were crippled i n th e i r power o f assort i ng cargoes. A ship coming from America had comparatively little in terest in assorting her cargo. In nine cases out of ten the cargo of a ship from America to this country was made up of bulky goods, cotton and flour, the produce of the United States herself. In the trade the other way the question was entirely altered. The trade to America consisted principally of manufactured articles of various kinds, and every gentleman who had considered the commercial question was well aware that in sending out manufactured goods, the whole profit depended on the power of assorting a cargo. At this moment, in a very important branch of the trade between America and this country, an immense advantage was conferred on America. Their Lordships were aware that America had lately established steam packets between New York and this country. He was informed, and he believed the information to be perfectly correct, that one great advantage which the American steam-b oa t h a d ove r the Briti s h, was that the articles that paid best in the steam navigation to Ame rica were articles of taste and millinery. They went almost entirely by steam, and he was told that, in the power of making up their assorted cargo by various j prosperity and contentment in our American colonies; articles of Paris taste, the trade which the American on the other hand, that when they attempted to enforce steamers carried on was a very material advantage to them, they were met with the most determined resist the country, He could pint cut to their Lordships that ante, which resulted in the separation o a large part of in many other cases the law as it now stood was a pro- the empire. With these lessons before their eyes, were tection, not to the British shirowner, but to foreign in- they to rush blindfold into the same short-sighted policy? terests. In the course of a vary short time, by the Act If the decision should unfortunately' be the reverse of of Parliament now in force, the duties upon sugar from what he hoped arid expected it would be—he would, all parts of the world to this country would be indeed, be a bold man who would venture to make him. equal. The mome n t that took place Jamaica would self responsible for the consequences—and for the adini have no more interest in importing sugar here nistration of the colonial affairs of this country in the than other parts of the world. The moment that took face of the dangers and the difficulties which that deer. place it would be of great advantage to the Jamaica sion would entail.—(Hear.) Great stress had been laid planter, when his sugar was in London, that he should on the petitions which had been presented against the Bill. go to any port that was the best—llacebuegh or else- Bat they knew very well the machinery by which peti where—to receive a better price, but he would not be tions were now too frequently got up—a machinery allowed to do so. He trusted he had succeeded in show- which he regretted to say went far to destroy the benefit ing their Lordships that as far as the home trade was of the right of petition.—(llear, hear.) In no case, concerned, the restrictions on the statute-book were no perhaps, had that machinery been more vigorously exer real protection to British ships. He would now come to cited than in the present. Now, with regard to the pe what he considered to be the strongest part of the case tition from Liverpool. From a town, containing 200,000 is favour of the Bill before their Lordships, he meant its inhabitants, they were told a petition had emanated, bearing upon the colonial interest; and, in the first place, signed by no less than 47,000 persons.—(Hear, bean) let him mention that the law as regarded the colonies He believed it would not be denied that there was much was different from the old navigation -law. Foreign ships division in Liverpool on this subject, and that there were could not carry goods from one colony to another, or many free traders there. Yet here they had a petition from one of the colonies to England. In certain cases purporting to be signed by no lets than three-fourths of foreign countries were not allowed to trade in their own the whole adult male population, including paupers, ships to British colonies, and in other cases only in British police, beggars, and all other persons from the highest ships. These were the main provisions of the existing law. to the lowest.—(Hear, hear.) Besides this they ha I Now he must point out the evils which the law entailed, petitions from other places—presented as against the re and, in so doing, however, lie was so anxious to peal of the navigation laws—as petitions from the clergy avoid trespassing longer than was necessary, that ho landowners, and others of Mayfield, Hastings, and other should confine his attention a l most exc l us i ve l y to one agricultural districts. case, and that was the case of Canada. And he most A None.*.: PEELS—And maritime places also. earnestly entreated their Lordships to consider what Earl GREY—Yes, there were petitions from Tewkes that case really was. Their Lordships wer e aware th a t b ury an d Melton Mowbray. Were these maritime the most important articles of the produce of Canada places ?—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) But did any of were now exposed to free competition in the markets of their Lordships believe that it was merely the preven this country; they knew that the main articles which tion of any alteration in the navigation-laws these peti she was capable of supplying, corn and flour, coin- tioners bad in v i ew ?—(H ear, hear.) Lie would take peted principally with the United States. Canada one—a petition from Ashby-de-la-2ouch. Ho found possessed one out of three great lines of internal that the petitioners complained that the depressed con navigation, communicating with the interior of the dition of agric u lt ure t h reatened ruin to the farmer, American continent. Canada had within the last year, landowner, and all th e i n d ustrial classes dependent on , at very heavy expense, improved the natural line of water them for support, a n d p ray i ng .for such an amount of communication by the St. Lawrence to the great western protection to British agriculture, and to the colonial, lakes. Those works were now completed; shins and yes- commercial, and manuf actur i ng i nterests, as should shift. cols of very considerable size could go from Quebec to a the burden of t a x a ti on f rom ' t h e home to the foreign pro point on the great western lakes without transmitting ducer.—(Hear, hear.) H e as k e d their Lordships their cargoes, and in a very short space of time. It was to pause before they determined to oppose the a question whether the produce not only of Canada, but repeal of the navigation. laws. He advised them to con of the western states of America, should be sent by this skier well the effects which might result. He was not line to Europe, or by the Erie Canal. Their Lordships afraid of their success, even should they try, as they would find from the papers on the table that freight from seemed inclined to do, to repeal the corn-laws. lie had England to Quebec was 60 cents fur a barrel of flour, and not) the slightest apprehension that they could succeed to New York it was 101 cents; that the time taken from in re-establishing the corn laws.—(Cheers.) They England to Quebec was six days, to New York sixteen might mistake the present apparent apathy in public days. What was it raised the freights of the St. Law- opinion; but they should recollect that a step in the rence, and practically destroyed the advantages which free-trade direction was never retraced; that the steady Canada otherwise enjoyed? What raised those freights tide of human improvements was progressing, and that were the restrictions imposed by the Act of Parliament when that which was admitted to be sound was once which he now called on their Lordships to repeal. established in a free country and became embodied in If those restrictions were not reserved for the pur- their statute-hook, there was no retreat. The corn-laws pose of enhancing the freights, what were they were settled for ever. He °egged of their Lordships to reserved for ? He contended that the depression consider well' whether ie,was not full of danger again to of Canada was occasioned, not by the removal of re-open the agitation on that subject. Let them remember protection, but by the capriciousness of our Legisla- all the machinery of agitation, and how, if re. opened, it ture since. They were bound now, having removed would effect the interest of land. If they began a real protection, to give the Canadians compensation for agitation for the restoration of protection—if, for in any advantages it afforded by opening to them the cue- stance, they said that a return to protection was neces petition of every nation for the carriage of their goods. sary for the carrying on of their business, they would de- Noble Lords opposite would not venture to propose the press the value of landed property. That property was restoration of protection.—(Protectionist cheers.) No, suffering at the present moment, and yet there was whatever might be said outside to delude the farmers, nothi n g i n the p resent crisis to justify a panic.—(Laugh the Noble Lord opposite would not make any proposi- ter from the Protectionists.) The average price of wheat tion in that House for its restoration. Well, if they now was 45e.; the average price under the system of pro were no t prepared to do this, and no one attempted to tectiun had been 355.; and therefore there was nothing move a finger for the purpose, they were bound to give to justify the panic. But there was not a landlord now the Canadians every relief in their power by passing the who was not suffering from the depressed value of land; Present Bill. He thought he had shown their Lordships ants in the present state of Europe was there no danger to that the claim of Canada was strong in justice; he be- be apprehended from setting class against class—from lieved he could also show them that they were strong in again calling into existence the machinery of agitation policy and prudence.—(Cheers.) Their Lordships had upon anti-corn-law and upon pro-corn-law, and upon that no doubt read the papers which had been laid on the most exciting subject:ot the food of the people, raising a table by command of her Majesty, and could cry for protection?—(Cheers.) Were their Lordships so not have failed to perceive the strong evidence blind as not to know that among those who were osten they contained of the feeling existing in Ca- sibly prosecuting the repeal of the corn-laws, there were nada. The Canadians were fully aware of the claim many who telt regret at the success of that measure— they had en Parliament; they knew it was net a claim that there were too many who were anxious to keep up upon favour, but a claim founded on the strictest the agitation for ulterior, and, as he (Earl Grey) justice. The whole province was united as one man thought, dangerous objects ?—(Hear, hear.) Were upon that subject.—(Hear, hear.) He had already they going to let such parties as these recommence agi mentioned a letter signed by the most eminent house in tation for these more dangerous purposes ? He trusted Montreal, addressed to the Board of Trade. The Council not. He warned them to beware lest the tenantry of this of the Board had asked for the restoration of protection, country should turn upon them and say that it was not but these gentlemen, in this most remarkable document, protection but somethin g else they w a nted—th a t th e y asked for entire free trade. They argued, with an required not a gentry to dictate to them, but that they ability which did them the highest credit, against any would set up for themselves, and adopt a most dangerous attempt to restore protection. But this was not all. Ile cry?—(Hear, hear.) Were their Lordships prepared begged to refer the House to what was a most authentic by their vote that night to produce a general election, in expression of the feeling of Canada. At the commence- which dangerous and most exciting topics might be ment of the colonial session, both Houses of Parliament raised? Were they prepared to run incalculable risks? agree to address her Majesty for a repeal of the naviga- —(Hear, hear.) True, a Noble Lord had told the House tion laws.—(Hear, hear.) It was true that an amend- the night before to anticipate no danger, but to look at ment was moved—not an amendment to leave out any the measure before them, and to threw it out without portion of the address ; not striking out the repeal of fear or scruple; but if that Noble Lord would bravo the the navigation laws, but asking, in addition, for the re- storm, he (Earl Grey) trusted their Lordships were not storation of protection.—(Protectionist cheers.) Yes, but prepared to follow his example, but that they would that amendment was decided in the negative by a consider the bearings of the present question upon the large majority. Their assembly would not include in general interests of the country, and it they regarded the the address any prayer for the restoration of protection. management of public affairs as imposing upon them —(Hear.) The amendment having been thus disposed the highest and most solemn responsibility, he had no of, the address, as originally framed, was adopted by the fear of the result of that night's division.—(Cheers.) Assembly without a division.—(Hear, hear.) He would Lord STANLEY said he had no intention of going only trouble their Lordships with one more document as back to the remote times to which the Noble Marquis to the state of feeling in Canada. It was a paper which had alluded in introducing the Bill, or to those of which had been laid on the table during the previous session, the Noble Earl who had just addressed their Lordships and dated the 15th of June, from Canada. The writer had spoken. Neither should he enter into any of those stated that the approaching repeal of the navigation-laws speculations with which the Noble Earl had concluded had been hailed with acclamation in the colonies, but his speech. The great question to which he would een subsequently a fear had arisen that the measure would ture to draw their Lordships' attention was simply this— be lost in its passage through Parliament_ This had Was it, by all considerations of domestic, foreign, and preassoese e most painful feeling in the colony, as the colonial policy, advisable, by adopting this Bill, to de- Canadian farmer felt that he was entitled to this mea- stroy altogether a system of law, which for the last 200 sure not as a matter of favour but of justice. lie did years, to say the least of it, had been relied upon as the not hesitate to declare it to be his firm opinion that, if' base of their national greatness, and the foundation of their Lordships decided upon rejecting the present mea- their civil strength?—(Hear, hear.) In considering sure, their decision would be attended with the most this question, he did not propose to follow the Noble serious effects in Canada. They all knew that the con- Earl through the colonial part of the question. He nexion of Great Britain with that colony could not be thought the simple question was—would they wholly maintained on other than terms of the most perfect repeal their navigation-laws? In the proposition now be commercial equality. But if that connexion was fore them, they were forced into a particular channel of sacrificed, it was not only Canada that would be lost inquiry. The question was not, whether they would to England, but the great naval arsenal of adapt those laws to the circumstances of the times in Halifax also; and, when some of their Lord- which they lived; but it went directly to the entire re ships were talking of the importance of the peal of the navigation-laws. Oa that account it was that naval position of the United Kiegdom, he must he did deprecate the hasty, precipitate, ill-considered beg leave to remind them that the loss of Halifax was a step which the Government were advising them to take matter worthy of some consideration in that point of —a step which amounted to nothing short of destroying view. The Canada, must be held by ties of friendship utterly the navigation-law of this country. The Noble add mutual interest or they must be relinquished, for it Earl had designated these navigation-laws as the bar was by obtaining a hold on the cordial affections of barous relic of a barbarous age, inconsistent with the those colonists that England could alone hope to pre- refined and enlightened policy of a civilized nation, and serve them. He could not too earnestly impress upon unworthy of being retained in the statute-book. He their Lordships' minds that the terms which he had (Lord Stanley) could recollect a time when the Noble stated were those alone upon which the connexion of Earl did not hold the opinion that these were the charac- England with the Canadas could be kept up. He begged teristics of the navigation. laws—(hear)—when, at a to remind their Lordships also that the Earl of Elgin meeting of shipowners, at North Shields, he said it was had correctly stated in his dispatches that the Canadians wrong to expose the British shipowner to competition, notwithstanding all their disputes, had with common and still subject him to restriction. It was represented, accord—the French joining with the English portion of too, that Mr. Huskisson had approved of those views of the population—cordially expressed their desire to re- the Noble Earl, expressed at that time, which no doubt main attached to the British Crown. If their Lord- he did. Adam Smith, on the other hand, said that these ships threw out the Bill, they parted with the best laws, dictated as they were in the first instance by na security which England possessed for the maintenance tional unimosity, had been produced by the utmost poli ot her Canadian colonies. But whatever might be the tical wisdom. He would remind the House that when decision of their Lordships that night, he entertained no this last relic of a barbarous age existed, Mr. Huskisson doubt whatever that the restrictions imposed by the na- was bound to say that it was based upon the highest vigation-laws could net long be maintained. But if ground of national necessity—that of providing for their their Lordships threw away th present opportupity for defences, and of affording , security to th e i r co l on i a l pos , repealing with a good grace th e obnoxious and injurious sessions. Adammith, then, thought that these law s , restrictions which pressed upon the commerce and in- commenced in feeling S of national animosity, were the dustry of the Canadians, they might depend upon have result of the utmost wisdom of their statesmen; Mr. ing to offer concessions when it would be too late. The Huskisson justified their policy, on the ground of high great author of the navigation-laws, that most s a gacious political necessity; and Earl Grey considered them the man and able ruler, Cromwell, allowed the rising cote- relic of a barbarous age. Between those conflicting nies to enjoy a practical exemption from their operation; authorities their Lordships were called upon to decide. and they were permitted to keep this in the midst of the —(Cheers and laughter.) He would now venture to re• wars wherein England was involved during the Protec- mind their Lordships of the extent of the interests upon torate. But Charles 11. tried to make the navigation- which they were required to legislate. He did not laws applicable in the colonies. This odious law believe that the tonnage of this country was so large as of navigation and trade could not be enforced the Noble Marquis had stated it at, viz., 4,000,000 tons, and he (Lord Grey) would refer their Lord- or that the number of seamen was so large as 232,000; ships to a scarce book, called " The Lives of the Re- but of this there was no doubt, that in that trade there markable Men" of that day, for some account of Edward was embarked an amount of capital from 54,000,000/. Randolph, who, in the year 1679, was appointed Col- to 60,000,0001., that it employed, beyond the seamen en lector or Boston, in the United States, for the express gaged in it, eighty thousand artificers, which artificers purpose of enforcing the trade and navigation-laws, but divided amongst them at least 5,000,0004 in wages, and who signally failed in so doing. The Noble Earl hero the total freight earned by these vessels was 28,600,000/, read au extract from the work to which he drew atten- Those were merely the pecuniary considerations of tion, but in so inaudible a tune as to prevent his state- the question before their Lordships ; but there was ment from reaching the reporters' gallery. The power another far above them. It was the consideration of the Government of Charles If. an his successors was of their national defences and independence, and on that rot strong enough to enforce these injurious and odious question they were, he thought, nearly all agreed. That laws, and though they remained on the statute book their their maritime superiority, so essential to their national operation was practically suspended as far as the colonies greatness, was dependent almost entirely on were concerned for a long series of years. Other sub- their commercial marine could not be denied,— sequent attempts were made to enforce them, (Hear, bear.) Their Lordships were now called upon but those attempts were always met with the most by the Government to put these elements of their determined resistance.—(Hear, hear.) Then they came greatness in jeopardy, and to be satisfied with the argu to the only period of the reign of George 111., when ments of the Noble Earl and his colleagues, that they a renewed attempt was made to enforce these laws. might with advantage sweep from the statute-book the That attempt, like the others, was at once resisted, last vestige of these laws. He would warn their Lord and the Government determining to persevere in it, ships most earnestly to be careful not to act hastily upon the result was the separation of the American colonies any such recommendations. He was astonished at the from the mother country. He was awar e that it was boldness of the Ministry, who would incur such generally believed that the American war of indepen- great consequence upon the hazard of a die. The deuce originated in a mere question of taxation. But Noble Earl, who respected popular opinion, com there could be no doubt in the minds of those who exa- mented upon the petitions presented upon this question mined the matter that it was not that alone, but that the from tenant-farmers, who, although injured themselves, question turned principally on our navigation-laws, and had sympathy for others, but if these petitioners th w a e t r a e that the attempt to enforce those odious laws was the not exactly what the Noble Earl might value, main cause of the resistance of our American colonies reason he should disregard the petitions hfor i p o r s e ta se n n e w e t s d as f t r h o a m t and their ultimate separation. Mr. Savage gave it as great commercial communities, u s t us Liverpool 00l was not the his opinion, " that had the attempt been enforced in presented from Liverpool? B Petitions; no such 1766 the separation would have then ensued as certainly only commercial tow ld n t a h s a k t presentedhad any commercial town as it did in 1776. Never was there a period when the thing. But hewou of it? Not one.—(Hear, hear.) colonies submitted quietly to these laws, or at all, ex- petitioned in Earl favou r acted as if the commercial and ship nothingcept under compulsion;" and he also added, " that The Noble interests knew nothing of this subject.— theif tk t e hey d e broke struc in his judgment could be clearer than that owning hiear hear.) Now, he found that all the naval British navigation-laws for regulating trade were most injurious to her colonies."—(flear, hear That was the opinion also of a distinguished Minister of d m( o e w n n 'i t n hes t e ne laws, countryit declared would tion of the naval supremacy of this country. The the United States, and a lawyer, who was now the Min l i d - Noble Earl then adverted to the machinery got up for stet of the United States in England, and who could show letters from the French Minister previous to the the presentation of petitions, and yet he could say that never was any expression of opinion more spontaneous separation (1770), stating that the attempt to f ent however, t o make r rather t thisher inconsistent insinuation, w e o p r a e r part e o . f these odious restrictions would certainly lead tp, the ., re- . than that which took place with reference tothissub suit which six years later ensued—and agai jest. Government was, rnl in another letter the same opinion was of Mr, expressed. n'inl' 7 1 6 n, j t acridly understood to have used such ext • confirmation of this he would read a short letterextraordinary Mr. Bancroft s a ' means to • • procure a majority in that House this Bancroft's—believing, as he did, that upon that Lordships with question. It was said that ' • would he received by their opinion for it. lie said—" John loot understand these ' • respect which lie entertainednavigation-laws. There was, how- Adams, President of the United States, ever, one thing the second certain, that they did not know that these Minister to the Court of laws were injurious to and the first American them. It was certainly very London, in speaking of the independence of that strange that these parties should not find out in the originated ted the struggle course of the' country, stated that it. obusiness that these laws were inconve which had commenced in 1761 against - silent or injurious to their interests. With regard to that, during a century and laws." They found, then,_ the case of Canada, with reference to the effect of these a half, when those laws were in abeyance, there was laws, that was, as that colony was now placed, an ex- ceptional case. It was not likely that a colony would pi tition the Queen for the restoration of protection, when that petition was to go through the hands of the Noble Earl, and he was to advise the answer. The case, however, of Canada, was peculiar. The differ• ence upon the receipts from Quebec or Montreal was never great, and between which there were very heavy charges before a vessel could enter the ocean. These amounted, upon a vessel of 350 tons, to 1751. In truth s American vessels would not go to Montreal, closed up for five months in the year with ice, when they could export their produce from New York.—(Hear, hear.) The American ships would not, and did not, compete with English ships on the river St. Lawrence. The Noble Earl referred to the firm of Holme, Young, and Knapp, stated to carry on a very profitable trade in pig iron, but stated that they were seriously injured by those obnoxious navigation-laws. He could not, however, agree in that view. This House was said to have de clared that the people of Canada were most loyal, but recommended that their feelings should not be exaspe rated by a refusal to repeal these laws. Now these gen ' tletnen, on a former occasion, stated that the Canadas wire anxious for annexation with the United States, and further stated it was impossible to retain a colony upon the principles of free trad e .— (Hear, hear.) This was the authority upon which the Noble Earl acted to conciliate their own sub jects in Canada, addressed by this American friendly authority. Besides, Cenada was not the whole of the Northern colonies. New Brunswick end Nova Scotia called upon them to repeal those laws, because they were shipbuilding colonies. Those cheap ships, upon which they so much relied, were of nu consideration, if the peculiar situation of Canada was taken into account, end they desired to relax the laws with regard to Canada. That might be done without opposition from the merchants of this country, by placing Montreal in the position of having goods exported con sidered as the produce of that port. Reference had been made to the petition from Jamaica. But the curious thing of it was, that the memorial from Jamaica did not ask for a repeal of the navigation -laws, They wished to have the order of the Queen in Council altered—and it was not fair, in the face of such a com plaint, to say that those people complained of the nevi against which they did not compl a i n at a ll. g I tatwi-°ans- a lr it s, e certain that while they were acting on prin ciples of reciprocity, they gained great advantages for this country in their commerce with foreign nations. Now, with respect to British tonnage, it was quite cer tain while it had fallen off to an immense amount that of Prussia had increased to a great extent. They en joyed 1,700,000 of shipping, and in that no power could reach them, if they took care not so to alter their navi gation-laws as to hold out to them an inducement to do so. They should also take care that they did not so inter fere with the interests of their artisans in their dockyards as to discourage them, and drive them to seek a field wherein to exercise their skill and industry in other nations. It had been said that the British ship builders in this country had nothing to fear from the ' fact of British ships being built in foreign countries; but let him remind their Lordships that there could not be a British ship built in a foreign country without dis placing a large amount of British labour, and diverting from this country a considerable amount of British ca pital.—(Hear.) lie warned them to take care not by any act of theirs to trench upon and injure the inte rests of the labouring p oor connected with this great question; he warned them not to set one class against another; he warned them to take care of their artisans; he warned them not to drive their British shipowners to register their ships in foreign countries; and he warned many Honourable Members of another House, who, he must say, were not on this question representing their constituents, that they would have much cause, in the event of a dissolution, to apprehend the consequences which the Noble Lord said he felt so much alarm about. He, therefore, held that question to be entirely one of giving employment to the people—to be totally separate from tree trade, and their Lordships would be much mis taken if they thought that British shipowners or seamen would be satisfied with an Act passed, if it should pass. with menaces—(Cheers)—which the Noble Marqui opposite thought proper to use.—(Hear, hear.) 'lli Noble Lord then concluded a speech of great eloquence and power, by invoking the blessings of Providence on this country to maintain that navy which was not the strength alone, but the greatness of that empire, and on which its very existence mainlydepended. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE then rose and ob served that he was not, at that hour of the night, going to obtrude on their Lordships at any length, in answer to the eloquent speech of the Noble Lord who had just sat down. The Noble Lord said, that menaces had been used, but he defied him to state when or where they were so uttered.—(Hear, hear.) When the Noble Lord made the statement, there was a general curiosity to know what those menaces were, and whether they were given in public or private. But he would take on him self to say that the words, if menace they were, would never have been used, were it not that the Noble Lord himself said, manfully certainly, but ostentatiously, that he was prepared for the consequences of a victory on that question.—(Load cheers.) All he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) said was, that if he were prepared for a victory, he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) was equally prepared for a defeat, and that was the menace which was used, and which was so much exaggerated. The attention of the Government had been for some time drawn to the subject, and after two or three years' deliberation, after successive votes of the House of Commons in its favour, the measure had come before their Lordships. how then could the Noble Lord ac cuse Ministers of being guilty of precipitation with re ference to the present question?—(Bear.) The Noble Marquis having concluded, Strangtrs were ordered to withdraw, when there sp ptared— Contents Proxies ---- 173 Non-Contents Proxies 44 - 163 Majority for Ministers -- 10 The result was a majority in favour of the Govern ment, and was hailed with loud cheers. Their Lordships then adjourned at a Quarter to Five o'clock. PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS. (From the Votes and Proceedings of the Rouse of Commons.) TUICSDAY, MAY 8. STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE. The following Resolution was reported from the above Committee:— That in the case of the Edinburgh and Northern Railway (Formation of Slip Quay and other Works at Granton, Ex tension of Station at Edinburgh, Regulation cf 'Perth Stations, and Amendment of Acts) petition for additional Provision, the standing orders ought to be dispensed with : That the parties be permitted to introduce their additional Provision if the Committee on the Bill shall think fit.— Resolution agreed to. THE " COUNT OUT" LAST NIGHT. The following Members were present when the House was counted out last night:— Sir Charles Wood Colonel Raved= Sir W. Somerville Mr. Lawless Mr. Baines Mr. Cowan Mr. James Clay - Mr. Wawn Sir H. Williamson Mr. Pilkington Mr. Poulett Scrope Colonel Salwe Y Colonel Thompson Sir A.ll3rooke Mr. Aglionby Mr. Duncuft Mr. Macgregor Mr. Lacy Mr. French Mr. Taylor Mr. W. J. Fox Mr. Stafford Mr. John Williams Mr. Henry Herbert Mr. Meagher Lord M. Hill Mr. William Fagan Mr. Moore Mr. John O'Connell Mr. C. W. Martin Mr. Sullivan Mr. Feargus O'Connor Mr. George Thompson PARLIAMENTARY OATHS BILL. PAIRS. I'OR. AGAINST. Alderman Humphery Mr. Blair lion. E. R. Littleton Mr. William Cubitt Mr. Peto Mr. Henry Drummond Mr. Pattison Mr. Henry Currie Sir J. APTaggart Mr. Bateson TO THE SECRETARY OF THE METROPOLITAN REFORM ASSOCIATION. Sir,—On Monday the 7th, the Parliamentary Oaths Bill was brought forward for a second reading. The most remarkable occurrence connected with the debate, was the appearance in it of two Members new to the present Parliament. The first was the Member for Leominster, son of Sir Robert Peel, who with a full share of hereditary talent, advanced a strong array of the arguments, historical and others, in favour of the liberal view of the question. The other was the new Meml4er for Sheffield, who dropped into his place as if no malignant Jupiter had ever kept him from his seat. lie rose after the d e bate by customary rules should have been close d ; and was listened to with an attention which scarc ely an,): other Member in such circumstances wou ld ha ve commanded. Either the info rmant's heavy, or be did not speak quite bud e nough for the general comfort of his hearers. Nothing is so en• couraging to a speaker, as the covetous silence which increases in intensity as his voice falls. But the end of all, is to be heard. It was the fortune of the writer of this, tun years ago to de scribe the Member, then for Bath, as coming with an accession of power after an interval of i-e -tirement. And the same judgment might be ventured again. The manner is improved in smooth ness and conciliatory effect; and the matter presents less of the partisan, and more of the statesman. In his speech at Sheffield, the Hon. Member seems to have felt as well as indicated, that processes of this nature were going on. The second r ea di ng was fi na ll y carr i e d b y 278 against 185 ; being 20 mere majority than last ses sion, and in a smaller House. On Tuesday there were speeches of considerable length on a motion to bring in a Bill for the formation of joint-stock banks, with a limited liability of :he shareholders ; but it was finally withdrawn, ,and IA eight o'clock the House was counted out. I am, Sir, your obedient servant, AN OLD REFORMER. London, May 9, 1849. LONDON HOSPITAL MEDICAL SCHOOL. — T he prizes awarded for the past session were distributed on Tuesday by Mr. Charles B. Stutfield in the presence of a large body of spectators; the gold medals presented by the governors were presented to the pupils distinguished for zeal and intelligence. At the conclusion of the die. tribution Mr. Stutfield delivered an able and eloquent address to the successful competitors. THE SUN. LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, MAY 9, 1849.