The Sun. — London, England, 1842-04-12 00:00:00

i N 01 1" 0O LW. !2*- 1 1 os• t 10 1) .11 xoti c f' n it 14 1 ' bri t " b d ou' e. 10' La „rot =01• I a 0 , , izut tiler Edon i 141. 1 ° tl2( )e hor o V i Lie t r o°l'.i 00 sa l !ojec l ' 0 )t ` , 3 as, t ot' 13111 i ;e 0 ; 10' et; 0 7 , ' aid P Cel r a len t ' gr j ibl e • 4 OW th' t 0 1'' )1 15i ' .. 1 11 , " o cr it i t tr the --.... 0. ee ef L i e need, when he heard the causes of the deficit,. lie rejoiced e . •t he. for . - tlith • one, had not been a party to tbe national calamity, sot s from,m year to year had male the resources of the State sa 0. 1 1 cient for its expenses. If he were called en to give p aw ltown of the policy that had led to that deficit, a great seat: of that pottcy he could not approve. He knew not t,teslisla interest was lensed when we went to Syria, and h erecit n-heel there th e d om i n i on of the Turks. lie knew not what ilase., r tgland had obtained from the blood of thousands te e ~,Z ean dawn Mount Lebanen, and flowed, mingling ixella pe se l "_e.s of the river Jordan. Be knew not what inteetst the eier e ' b er England had in the war in the reortheteet of India; th eme !' e wme England to set a tyrant and set imbe c il e on the twe e, Instead of a popu l ar ru l er ? It Wes stated that ten or l et ee thousand huinen beings had been sacrificed in this war s se 7 o 9lcl the Right Hon. Baronet put an end to that war by sseel!,aelfie interference? No, ten or twelve teousand more Ir k , u Probably be sacrificed, while the people of England had tegY tlae expense. He could not understand this way of ba eeett:t accounts, setting injury against itsjary. wrong agairsst le fee ' s ' Opal murder against murder. He could not see what vela , ( s . t the people had in this war, for which millions lie cont 1, the to lea wrung from a suffering people. l' aree ld not hut feel gratified to find that they were now ese et into something like sound principles of taxotion. Ne tt:l"Y had come to their aid ; so completely had the Right e le te Baronet, or the Right Hun. Baronet's predecessors, ex that7l'dthe means of levying new revenue from the people, eiloo it Was now necessary- to come, with no unaearing had, e lle 'erne other element of wealth. He confessed that the ar teneeot against a property tax—that it was only intend e d for a te e :If was --produced no impression upon his mind. He del te e ::' wtsether it was a war tax or a peace tax but whether or ; , Or was not a wise and just tax. He believed that if it tilte.29Y.itably levied, it was a tax which public opinion would os,e_"rely support. The Right Hon. Baronet, however, had e;e:toted his proposal with so much injustice, with so fe ;It wrong and so much injury, that he cou ld no t ' s e:, him his unqualified support.—(Hear, hear.) I n hi s se" the Ri g ht H on . B aronet h a d b een a l toget h er m i s l e d "he had confounded property and income; and he wan e:rised that a man of his acuteness could have been betrayed f e e 'ech an error. A property tax had very many recommen tee'uns; he believed that it was the wisest. the soundest, and c e, ohast economical method far taxation. The advantage of ,ixttkut taxation was that it cou ld b e l ev i e d a t a comparative l y Ae rie ! Coss ; the machinery, when properly managed, w as at tex''d with little expense, wh;le the machine r y o f i n d irec t t e a t , on was multitudinous, vexatious, and very fregnently led a e great abuse. Indirect taxation exposed them to all th;.ano tie t sto and vexation of the Custom-house, and to all Vdespotism of the Excise ; and the system of di- . taxation would get rid of most of those evils. Right Hon. Baronet, having introduced the wedge, would ;tabled to drive that wed ge so as t o a ff or d re li e f to t h e 0 re from those indirect contributions which he believed to ee t , he source of extreme and intens e su ff er i ng t o th e peop l e . there th e art i c l e o f co ff ee. H e would take the value at bits. ; e. ofi e was 84s. per cwt. levied upon it. The merc h ant ' s „ 1 , ,t t was not less than 10 per cent. By the payment of 84s. ie . 3 the merchant was obliged to put on an additional price of l e 4 d- 'per cwt. The profits of the retail dealer might A, es timated at lii per cent., and in consequence ofehe duty of al, 'id. he put on an a dditi ona l c h arge o f 13 s . 101 t to i n there was 235. 3d. in addition t o th e dot - of 84s. I' i t'd - hy the State, before the coffee couldresteh that consumer. res average price of tobacco was 4d. a pound, oh which a duty P P , n ,'• was levied, on which the importer and retailer had their 14.7. t, as well as on the original cost, so that 259 per cent. was oe .'ed onsthe consumers, in consequence of the system of indi ' taxation The price of sugar was 255., on which the e lc . ° ,r,tr and retailer levied 6a. eni. on the consumer. In the e nle of tea,the original value was is. 9d. per pound, and the eilr was as., on whie:n the importer and retailer had their pro 8 o an extent of 25 per cent., in consequence of the present le s ' e ros There were also many other articles which s ee would not then enter upon, but the o ne s he enurne -1,..v,„ were sufficient to show the lo sses sus t a i ne d 4 wltt community in consequence of the present system. With e'Pect to the tariff, he considered it advantageous as recognis • q!lroport ant principles, and he only wished that, together with i, vieak, he attacked the strong monopoli s t s ..—( H ear , h ear .) `ewes grateful for what the Right lion. Bar o n e t h a d d one , e 'd he i • - t i .. on y regretted that he did not do more. He was sure k." his (Dr. B.'s) side of the House would have supported the 1, 'Ott Hon. Baronet, an d if h e h a d d one so h e s h ou ld h ave hi s ti aoltl e but cordial support.—(Hear, hear. ) Mrs GALLY KNIGHT said, that having seen the vehe- Reoce with which the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet (1 1 , t ! - tort an d com b ate d, h e cou ld not suppress h i s des i re, as biped proprietor and and a county . Member, from stating f'sentiments on the question. The Noble Lord, the tlember for 11,1 ° u 44 %e endeavoured to establish two points. The first Was that eeessities of the country were net so great as had been till tr esented. and the second that if th ose necess it ies ex i s t e d, 1,1 Maid have been better r emove d b y th e measures propose d err Governme, than by thse which were rought forward by the e esent nt o . But whatever those necessities were, ' e :eY . were of the creation of the Noble Losd's Government, and c., 4 " country would never forget she legacy . his Govcrnment had 4 7 , le hind. If the matter were not notorious, he could repre , 4 ' l . it in the shape of a w•ll bequeathed by she late Govern sir, which he would read.—(Laughter.) Imprimis. To l a : Bons 5,900,000/. of debt. A war in China, a war with 44 4 ' at,ut an unsettled boundary with respect to America.— t e : r e . hear.) That was what was left by the late Govern to the country34' R. PEEL—there are many codicils.—( Laughter. ) % Mr. G. KNIGHT—Yes, there were hear.)cil but he t jateht he had gone far enough.—( Hear, They had , Provide tneans to carry out the measures which, I- owever aT u o eh they regretted they had been ever undertaken, it was te w uecessary to carry out, arid of which one was p. oduceve of (e r th e caleveity than a n y oth er which could be produeed in the , le e ters of England.—( at-, hear.) It appeared to him that, k %l llt eessities of the country demanded th e mo s t r ig o rou s ex "')Os on their part—necessities whi- h have been occasioned l a ; the extraordinary expenditure and impolitic measures of the t ia lt , Government. Taxs had been recklessly abandoned by the * tr,, l‘linistry. When they first took office, they had said that Tonics had tone so much that there was but little left to be I s: in the way of repealing taxatioe, yet, Lord Althorp had, ke:tty after that, taken off tee house lax, that tax which t ee 'l otirable Gentleman opposite were anxious to reimpose, k e it when taking it 'off, Lord Altho r p had said he was eZetued of what he wa s d o i u g, b u t the tax was so ~ to:nstilar, that he felt forced to take of the tax. Then, with . r e mt'd to the Post-office. 'Never had there been so reckless i kba n d onment orse large a resource. The Nob]: Lord had t, Cased the Rigist Ho„ Baronet of courting popularity. Fel s he was not courting popularity by proposing what had 1.,." b randed by the Gentlemen opposite with so many oppro „t,;:;'''''s epitheo. - --( Ilene, hear.) surely he was not courting Polarity by taking away from the great body of his supporters u per cent. of the protection which they at ,present enjoyed. "( Hear, hear.) Th e Ri g h t li on. B aronet was net l eg i s l at i ng `et cites interests, but fo r t h e b ene fi t o f t h e w h o l e coun try.-- i,,.!lesar, h ear .) Th e N o bl e L or d ha d re f erre d to hi s b u d ge t o f e e l Year. Now, when there was a good harvest they could I le i t 'et no revenue from a fixed duty on corn ; and, best es, V r , Ga'ly Knight) was convinced that they never ti e ~ -' Inainrain a fixed duty. Then, with regard to w e br duties, the change proposed last e,r n e ~,"' hate operated most injurioualy for the Crusades, differing li e '"`"t paint essentially front the plan now proposed. The lhoi;ton. proposed in the Sugar Duties would have destroyed 11i0t,:"..t Indian planter by admitting slave grown sugar and lb ~,tolated. those principles for which the nation had made )'ecoy sacrifices, and after all that hu )get would not have 4,.. - ` 4 Nd more than 2,C00,0001., and 5,030,0001. were wanted. ae;aa useless for the Noble Lord to try to retail his damaged k e lt'sieeted goods—he might try to sell his stinking fish, but t he "euld not be able to get it off his hands. He had not had 4 5 i 'lltortunity of consulting his constituents on the Right t o P. Baronet's financial scheme, but he felt himself authorised t'7lll the best judgment he could on propositions submitted o°ornament and to vote , upon them according to I s i s eittates of his conscience. If he displeased r ei , cossetituents thus acting they had the remedy in t4 P4 ' Ow n h an d s when an election took place. One see. the chief objections to the incline tax was its inquiei ,4 But it appeared to him that no groat mischief l 'lltd i result from the disclosure of the tae of a man's affairs r ° .. ., Commissioners who we sworn to secrecy ; besides. the e aocellor of the Exchrqutlr had stated that the .:Zill should be b t , -11. , 4 eed as to render the measure as little objectionable as :'''hle. He could not see the great mischief arising from 7 1t 'clostire wher very thing wee right ; in his own case he ' t, ° tdd not irin ad r ift he amount of his income were published at l oa r i e e-cross, because at present the income of every one was e l '""hel le the estimation of his neighbours, and he was es t ; et k e4 to live up to their erroneous calculation; while, 4eetlt-le other ease, he would only be expected to spend he could conveniently afford.—( Hear.) He thought a e e tariff would be a great benefit to the cenatnercial e , -41 't ansnufacturing interests, and to the people at large. He „,o a ' Perfectly aware that it would cause some capital to betaken 1 :t ofone b ran ch of ent e rprise and directed to another, but this I'. 5t happen under every great change ; no monopoly could be o,,,Zert up, no approach could be made to a more liberal policy t e t`netat some parties suffering some ieconvenienee, but the tittle community would find themselves in another year in a ittere advantegeous position than they were at present. ! wouldiPed after the tax had been in operation, many persons • t tsh at the expressions they had made use of with respect to ba' t' h , eve r day that the settleent of the qustion was ayed te o , s distress of the manufacturing classes inc e reased. Tho del Noble ` ,rel, the Member for London, had talked of Members upon that ti . de of the House having heads made of clay, but they would t 'll more deserve the reproaches of the Noble Lord if they I; r e to abandon a Government who would give them some % ; 4 tection and throw themselves into the arms of a party who 1 1 , °11 d deprive them of all protection. He acknovrholgod e 7 l the l an dl o rd s were hit very , hard by some of the r e ""Posals of the Government. the price of their co r n :,Itt now be diminished ; and, again , t hey we re hardl y (1- 't with in the article of timber, which the landed 4 P e - erietors had hitherto considered as a nest - egg to meet teY extraordinary expenses, such as the expenses of pateele as74eri g f - instance.— ( A laugh. ) But for his he , 1 , - `telti b n t - t . sor o r ' that his . was the only foot not pinched at a k•' k 1 '"d of preying public necessity. He felt on the whole : - 4, a teful thve for the plans they had brought se s e W a'd, and they ehoeld have his most sincere and cordial v ?Port...4 Bear, hear.) V• e e ' Ni r- ELI' lIIN STONE said he wished to state the grounds I. ' l which he should vote with the Noble Lord, the Member to e if t t he City of Loncon. He was perfectly ready to admit that fee 'ley were devising a new system of taxation he world rote eLa tax upon realised property. The present tax was a tax • - j• ''')O in come , upon . the hard-earned industry of she people ; 0' that be could not vote. It hat been calculated t , 3 . - Air. 111‘Gregor that if they were to impose a tax of four fo P "Rt. upon the rent of land and houses, they would derive 11 4 1 it an income of 10,000,0001 or 12,000,000/. .a -year ; \\, l i o 3 ' would thus be enabled to abelishma d ny of tha f main o tax t e b s, . ~,..,- , I t6l ,l ll 're vast b expense st T ln be co l lr b u t ng, Right Hon. Bar t Le c t on p e r r o t pTsed i ' to e 5y, ..,, , t ':c l real Only 3,0 e 00 ne ,00 . 01. or 4.000,0001.,. and if o th e e et o i l l d in. t w ax oo m ld ig b h o t t e better o a f s authority, o an Toilions b t e h e Reixgpbetnse Hon. s) 11 Baronet 'proposed to e t l t e i ncomes of three . and of thirty years' purchase in . precisely ; 41 10 - nee 'llne manner. If a .physician who had an income of s '.• th eee , /. a-year went to an insurance office, he would be told e' te at his income was not worth more than two or three years' Il e - tee e naoe, whilst 10,0001. a-year in landed property was worth 'ri ; 1 1Y Years • yet the Right Hon. Baronet proposed to tax both ' q,;"" same 'ratio. —(Cries of " Hear, heal.") Soveral Hon. S t e ''ltlemen in the course of the discussion had attempted Vto h '""w that the working classes of this country would benefit ` V' Y te . k . '. Proposed tax, as though they must be benefited by \ le, as• 4,.tetion from a tax to which others were subject ; but the k %:# 'At a 4 ,; i ttn classes knew that by loosening the capital with which s ..,, the'" were paid you must inflict severe injury upon them; Vin par t keew that when you taxed their bread h 0 per cent. in one k s `k. h t of the scheme, they could be no gainers by your taxing v t l / 4 , -: i n : ether classes three irer cent.—( Hear, _hear.) Upon look -4' '.• h„] at the tariff proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet, he felt Ne"' to 'ay that he thought it a great improvement upon the ee e t ng duties ; but there was one vice which pervaded the (It" ei it, namely, the continuance of differential duties.— f te e a,r, hear.) He thought that duties should be merely levied th e 4 e purposes of revenue. It was proposes! to impose a eta , el Is. only on Canadian timber. He could not C m l,"'e in the justice of thct proposal.—( Hear, hear.) e he t a ua paid nothing towards the taxes of this country ; she did soe. ' t e . i '' en par for the troops stationed there, and it was unjust . ' t t 'jure the op* of this country by admitting Canadian tim s, , 5 4,:i t i a nominal duty. duty. It was placing Canada in a better 4 s e TI than if she were an integral portion of the empire. 1. , 47 - 'll4lg to the prepesed plan, Canada wollit be better off ` ire :oresieio . ti W. W. JAMES deprecated the continuance of these discus --.' which, by.delaying the settlemot of the question, were inflicting the di+pest injury on the trade and commerce of the country. Many manufacturers had stopped their works until these questions shauld ha settled, and he considered it was now the duty of the House to think rather of,fietinfe thali of epeaking. The plan of the Right lldn. baronet was bold, comprehensive) end ?reit e ifeulated to attain its object, whiele Veli to raise a sufficient revenue :o meet the exigencies of the country. The plan proceeded on a broad and intelligible basis. The Right Hon. Baronet was like a skilful physician, who recommended his patient to take exercise. to use the energies of his body, and at the same time give him strengthening medicine. ( A laugh.) The very objections made to the plan of the Right Hor. Baronet seemed t-s him (Sir W. James) a ceinvineing proof that is its main outline it Was a good measure. He had looked over many of the public prints, to set the various different opinions delivered on the suisject at public meetings. There was, for instance, a petition trom Beading to the effect that. the flight lion. Baronet we about to ruin the agriculturists. In Lin colni`j re the graziers took the alarm. In fact, in every quarter especial fear for peculiar inters sts was expressed; hut the main festers of the plan, its general outline, remained untouched. tie did not exaggerate these things; but he should say that a nation like Englaied, which had for many years been the ad miration of the world, was more likely than any other to ex lite the jealousy of foreign states. It was un that account he thought that they should make every exertion in their power to maintain the eminent honour and grandeur of the country. It was said that a tax upon incomes would operate unequally ; but he believed that the inequality was much greater in the Ca =C of indirect taxes. lie felt, however, that to professional incomes. some relief should be granted. The case of is professional man with 4001. a year, was very different from that of a London proprietor in the receipt of the same amount of rent. The one could spend the wkole of his receipts, • while the other was obliged to make alum i• ion for future contin gencies. Fie thitueht there might be a clear claim to exemption when a person lays out a certain , urn in insuring his life, for that amount of his income he thought he might be exempted from the tax. Ile did not see that this alteration in the law would lead to any of that confusion which some other suggestions cer tainly would, and he thought it might be adopted by the Right Hon. Baronet with great benefit. Great inconvenience had been experienced from the manner in which the tax had been enforced under the former Acts. He would take the case of a person keeping an academy, and deriving also an income from shipping. He might suffer various losses from his connexion with shipping, and have his income greatly reduced. Surely it would be a very hard case to tax a person of that descrip. lion on his income derived from his academy, when he was deprived of the income he derived from another source. He hopeil the Right Hon. Baronet would manage so, that a person suffering a loss of his income from property classed in one schedule, would be compensated by a relief from taxation on property classed in another. He thought the tax would press peculiarly hard on the class he had men tioned, the class of schoolmasters. It vrou'el, he thought, be a great hardship, if they were taxed on the whole amount of the income derived from their pupils, while their profits were not more than from 51. to 101. on each pupil. Ho had mentioned in a homely way, but he hoped intelligibly, some of the altera tions which he thought might be advantageously made in the Right Hon. Baronet's plan. In outline it was great and com prehensive, and as such, would, he hoped, be treated by the House. He was sure that when the House came to consider the tariff, it would not treat it in a spirit of party, but in a spirit of moderation. Mr. WALLACE said, the Honourable Member who had last spoken had gone into the details of a measure that was not before the House, and had not entered into the measure that was before it. Ile had just told them that timber was the " nestergg" of the agriculturists, but he "would allow him, (Mr. W.) to suggest that there were other parties who also had their " nest-egg." The "nest-egg" of the commercial community was secrecy as to their modes of conducting their business. Their desire was not to have their modes of conducting business inquired into in any way whatever. Whatever the Com missioners may say, he could assure him % that all inquiry was out of the question. However strict the rules might be as to secrecy, it would in practice be repeatedly broken through. They were now debating the question of an income tax, and a great many things might be said in relation to the position in which the Right Hon. Baronet had placed the country ; and in the first place he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman had brought forward his budget at an unseasonable period, before the end of the financial year, which he thought was contrary to Parliamentary usage. In the course of his Parliamentary ex perierice he never knew a budget brought forward till after the sth of April. The budget was also brought forward piecemeal, and he never knew a Minister of the Crown a ho did not bring fore ard his whole scheme at once.—( Hear, hear.) That was his view of the matter, and if he were wrong he could be set right. He had also to complain that time had not been given to the country to understand the question. He had likewise to com plain of the partiality of the measure. He had, on a former occasion, adverted to a recollection of his that the Right lion. Baspect had stated that it would be unfair it an income tax did not embrace the se hole of the three king dems. Awl he woule now quote from a speech delivered by the Right Hors. Baronet on the 19th of April, 1833, and he was glad to see the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for the county Cork, in his place. The Right Hon. Baronet said, that, the Nble Lord (Althorp) did well not to propose an in come or property tax, as it could not be jus:ificd, except in a ease of extreme necessity, and to rais two or three per cent. by such nos .s would, he thought, be very unwise. Such a tax would be a great r. soiree in time of necessity, and should not be unwisely applied in time of peace. But if it were neces sary to impose such a tax Ite land ought not to be exempted. Now he ( Mr. Wallace) did not wish to see Ireland taxed, but he wished twee that England and Scotland were not taxed. He coeceived that Scotland should be as exempt as Ireland, and he should take the sense of the House upon the subject. With respect to a tax upon property, as dis•inguished from a tax upon income, the Hight Hon. Baronet had very much doubted whether it would favour the interests of the labouring population. Would the Right Hon. Baronet say so now ? In his (Mr. Walleee's) opinion, property and incense' were sync). nymous Hear, hear, fr am Sir R. Peel.) He meant in their applicatioo.—( Hear, hear.) He did not believe it would be possible for the Right Hon. Baronet, or the House, to impose a tax upon proper y separate from income. He con ceived that any distinction would be unfair. Now, it was said that 7d. in the pound was a very small amount, and not worth mentioning, b--cause, during the war, 10 per teat. was paid without asy difficulty. It should be recollected that, during the war, this country had the bail of commute at its foot. There was then continued prosperity, unceasing money mak ing. There. was no man engaged in any prudent kind of busi ness who dpi not go to bed at night richer than he rose in the morning.—( Laughter. ) Sir itOBER*I PEEL—It would be better to have a war again.—(A laugh.) Mr. Ns , ALLACE said, at all events, they should not first expose the affairs .of the distressed people, and thee take three per cen'. out of their pockets. On those grounds he thought Parliament ought not to insist ou this tax. Plenty of expe dients had been shown to which they could have ieeourse to supply the deficit of revenue, and he hoped, therefore, the House 'senild prevail on the Right Hop. Baronet to give up his scheme. Mr. LIDDELL sail, it was perfectly true that the commercial and agricultural claises of the community were looking with great impatience to the conclusion of the debate, but it was not to be expected that a measure affecting interests of such importance as the present did, should l ass without considerable discussion. He would, therefore, trespass for wine time on the indulgence of the House. The Hon. Gentleman who had just sit down,,bad in the course of his speech made one most important admission, which must he very satisfactory to the Right Honourable Baronet. If it were true, as the Right Honourable Gentleman had stated, that a property tax could not be laid on inde pendently of an income tax, what became of the opposition offered by Hon. Gentlemen on the other side? The Right Hou. Gentleman had brought forward his plan as a whole, and it would be unfair to the Government to consider it in detached parts. The only question was, did the exigen cies of tke country require , the snip° ition of the taxes which the Right Son. Baronet bad proposed? He had listened to the speech of the Noble Lord with surprise and with pain. It was not necessary to go back to the period when the income tax had been of iginally proposed, lie would recal the atten tion of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite to the year 1830. At that period they took office under the auspices of a wiser and better leader than they ever had since Lord Grev.--e ( Hear.) At that time their watchwords were, " Reform:Re trenchment, and Peace." The first pledge had besn speedily redeeMed 'by the Reform Act, and although he ob jected to some portions of that mea ure, yet he must confess that it removed many blemishes ; and it hail now given us a Government such as ,hed never before been seen es this country—a Government framed on a broad Conservative basis, and resting for support upon the people in stead of on a boroughmongering eligarchy, and any Govern. ment that might succeed them must likewise rest upon the people for support. With regard to retrenchment, there had been a retrenchment of revenue with an augment a• ion of ex penditure ; arid with regard to peace, tilihough the country was net involved in an European war, yet it was involved its war: likely to be quite as long continued nod as expensive • A Bri tish Envoy had been murdered in violation of the law of na tions, by a barbarian Chief beyond the Indus. That perfidy it use no; go unpunished; and that war had been left to em barrass the present Government by their predecessors, who had rushed into it in spite of the warnings of the most illuorioue warrior of the age. Surely, the result of the last election ought to have enlightened the Noble Lord's mind as to the estimation itt which his financial plans were held by the country.—( Hear.) Even among the supposzers of the late Government. the greatest diversity of open on existed on the subject. Flis (Mr. Liddell's) Hen. Colleague had at tip. , last election been proposed by the Mem ber fur South Durham and, in propo-ing him. that Hon. Gentleman had said, that although he supported the Noble Lord's Government, yet he would oppose them in the altera tion of the Corn laws. When his lion. Colleague addressed the electors, he expressed himself as approving of the Govern ment-, bto he also exereised his decided oppositioe to any mea sure inter erires with the sugar duties. Two other Hon. Gen dome'', the Members for North and South Shields, both of whom sat on the opposite side of the House, declared that they would vote for a change in the sugar duties, but that they would not hear of any change in the timber duties. The No ble Lord had referred to the speech of the Hon. Member for Wallingford, and alleged that the lion. Gentleman had de ceived and misled the farmers. He (Mr. Liddell) could say that if the farmers had been deceived and misled, it was not by tips R gkt Hen. Baronetor the Government. In many of theßight Hon. Baronet's speeches he had pledged himself to the princiele of the fluctuating duties on corn. It was perfectly clear that he had not, pledged himself to no alteration in detail. He (Mr. Liddell) considered that he (Sir Robert Peel) had redeemed every pledge he had given. If Hon. Gentlemen on that (the Moneterial) ride of the House had made use of strong ilan guage, let them he answerable for t.—(Hear.) He must say that there was great discontent among the cattle-dealers of the country. lie was aware that the fairs and the markets were in a state of stagnation, and it is believed that the apprelien sioii of the dealers had been raised by the ignorance of parties • who had expressed opinions as to what was likely to hay pen in that branch of trade. When he passed through York the other day he saw a placard announcing that the market was likely shortly to be supplied with meat at 3d. per pound. Could anything be more visionary than such apprehensions as these? lie would just refer to the imports into this country from Ireland alone, and he would read to the House some de tails extracted from a work entitled "The Revenue, Popula tion, and Commerce of the United Kingdom," thigh would show the extraordinary increase in the importation of reads' that had taken place within the last ten years from Ireland. In 1825, the imports were 63,524 cows and oxen, and in 1835 no less than 93,150 oxen and cows, being.an increase of no less than 34,6i6. Of sheep, in 1825, 72,191, and 1835, 125,452 head, being an increase of 53,261. Of. swine, in 1825, the number was 65.900, and in 1835, 376,191 head, being an in crease of 310,000. Why did he mention these facts, but to al'ay the apprehensions which had arisen. He found that at this moment butchers' meat was higher in London than he be lieved it had ever been before, with the exception of a small fraction ; for they could not obtain the best' butchers' meat for less thin 841. per pound. He thought every one would admit that it was not the interest of the landed proprietor or the agricultur.ets, any more than the consumer, that on any article there should be a high price. He (Mr. Liddell) believed that the Right Hon. Baronet would deal with their cumbrous tariff as it should be dealt with, and that he was fully alive to those great duties which were demanded of him as a Minister of a great empire. He (Mr. Liddell) had ventured to tell the Mouse the amount of the importation of cattle from Ireland. tie would el •• t !':•• , . portatlon ever made of Lye oxen into Scotland in one vessel 00 been made into Aberdeen, viz., 209 head of oxen, and 100 sheep. The vessel tilso contained 100 bones of salmon. Now, if such 'an extensive i pte mrtatien were td be et pected, he ieould like to ask Where that cddntry was` which was supply it? He had looked over the ireperts and ex perts of some of the countries of the north of Europe. From Finland the imports were 1,139 head. Prussia was a country which both imported and exported; but the import of cattle very largely exceeded the export in any one year. In 1828 the number of oxen, steers, cows, and cslves imported was 19.752 head, the eipoets amounted to 8,10 heall, being an excess of imports over exports of 11,551. In 1829 the im ports were 20,342, the exports 7,971, being an excess of im ports over exports of 12,371. In 1830 the imports were 17 391 head, and the exports 9,000, being an excess on the same of 8,939. In 1t431, which was a year in which little speculation took place, and for which he could not account, the exports only amounted to 13,000 and the imparts te'et,ooo, being an excess of imports Over exports of upwards of 5.000. In sheep, the importation into Prussia amounted in 1828 to 211.39 e head, and the experts 76,464, being an excess of im ports over experts of 134,928. He would riot trouble the House with the details, but the excess of imports over exports in 1829 amounted to 141,000; in 1830, 126,' 00; and in 1831 to 76,000.- Swine was also in proportion to that number. From this it would appear that Prussia was not the counry to send a large quantity of cattle to this country. In Denmark 1836 he found that the amount, of exports in to the whole world was 28.000 head of oxen, 5,003 cows, 6,900 calves, and 13,028 pigs. Let any person consider these statements, and say w'tether the apprehensions which had been raised were not visionary. He did not think that the proposed measure would reduce meat a penny per pound. He ventured to tint ble the House with these figures, considei ing, it to be his duty. connected as he was with a large agricultural county celebrated for its progress in farming and agricultural pursuits. He did so to allay the fears and alarms of persons cc:lleac:ea with these pursuits. These state Meres hit felt convinced would be received by them, for they came from an unsuspected quarter. In France the imports of lire animals in 1837, amounted in value to 537,000/. ; the value of exports, 422,0f 1 0/. showing an excess of value of imports over exports of 115,418/. It was not then from France that they had to dread an inundation of cattle into the English markets Ho believed that, if any part of Europe was likely to supply the English market, it would be Holstein and Denmark ; and even from them it would be at a great disadvantage, as a great part of the river Elbe was closed by frost, and many months it was ex paced to severe storms. With respect to the timber duties, he thought the alteration would give general satisfaction. There had been a large meeting in Sunderland on the subject, called for the purpose of passing a vote of censure on the proposition of the Rt. Hon. Bart. That meeting was attended by a very influen tial timber merchant of the town ',lk ho proposed the first resolu tion, and he found a seconder, but no supporter, and an amendment was proposed and carried. He (Mr. Liddell) was at the same time well aware that a very strong feeling existed on the proposed change in the timber duties. There was only one mere point to which he would allude, in order is prepare the House for a further notice on the subject. There was one proposition of the Right Honourable Baronet with which he could not agree.—(Loud ironical cheers.) Ile was prepared for that cheer. He alluded, as the House would anticipate, to the proposed duty on coals. Thera would be another opportunity, when that part of the subject was before the House, for him to make such observations upon it as his duty demanded. He merely alluded to it then to show that the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet had not his entice support. With regard to his proposition with respect' to coals he could not agree. At the same time he was per fectly willing to say that nothing could be more fair than thn principle upon which the Right Hon. Baronet imposed that tax. His intention in rising to address the House had been with the purpose of removing what he considered a visionary alarm, and he thanked the House for having so patiently heard hits. Mr. RIGBY WA SON said, sufficient for the day was the evil thereof.—( Laughter.) He should most certainly decline folloWing the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat dawn. He thought there were strong reasons why the Right lion. Gentleman should reconsider this proposition, and he would remind the Right Hon. Gentleman that there was a great difference between a property and an income tax ; this diffe rence had been recognised by Mr. Huskisson, and he had ex pressed his opinion on the matter in a clear and decisive manner. The incomes derived from industrial sources and funded pro perty were very different, and should not be equally taxed. Gentlemen opposite had asserted that they were similar, but assertion was not proof, and they had not adduced one proof in favour of their assertion. He thought that real property should be taxed, but industrial incomes certainly should go free. He was not going to treat this question as a party question; he was one of those who cheered the Right Hon. Boroiret when ho said that the time was come when property should bear the burdens of the State; little did he then think that the Right Hon. Baronet was going to subject them to this odious im post. If he had erred in thinking that there was a wide distinction between a property and an income tax, he had erred in common with the landowners of Dumbartonshi re and Ayr shire, who, in the year 1798, had clearly expressed their opinions on the subject. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had asked them if it would not be right to tax the professional man who earned 8 or 10,000/. a-gear, and the Right Hon. Gentleman said that no tax was just. if he (Mr. Wagon) had to choose between two species of injustice. he should say that it was better that the professional man with 8 or 10,000/. a-year should go untaxed, than that the man with a miser able pittance of 1501. or 2001. a-year should be made to contribute sto large a sum towards the maintenance of the state. All taxes that had yet been proposed pressed on the working classes, but no tax, inquisitorial though some of them were, such as the window tax —was so inquisitorial and so odious as this. He had put a notice on the paper, which he meant most certainly to press to a division. The Right Hon. Gentleman had re quested them to exert themselves; they would do so; the de ficiency was two and a half millions, and why should three and a half millions be added to it ? He thought the expo, iment of the Right Holt. Baronet, re'ative to the timber duties, was quite uncalled for; he did not depreciate the benefits which might result from that, but he did say that this was not the time to reduce the duties on timber, and to impose an income tax. . lie had set on the paper that this tax was most inquisi torial, but the Right Hon. Gentleman said that he would r , o the most he could to alleviate Unit. What was said, in 13; 6, by Lord Folkestone? That !.' , ,:obleman said that this tax was unjust i t princip e and inquisitorial in practice, and if they re moved its inquisitorial character it would no longer be an in come tax ; and Lord Brougham had expressed a similar opinion. He had set en the paper that this tax was a most immoral one ; and, in proof of this, he would inform them that in 18th there were 11,00) appeals t the commission in consequence of surcharges:, and of these 11,000, 7,000 did not appear. allowin4 themselves rather to be imposed upon than subject their affairs to public inve , tigation. lie would make one more observation before he sat down, aiot that was, that the Right Hon. Baronet, whiht he did not de injustice himself, must take care that injustice was not com mitted by others ; he must take oare that he did nut allow the income tax to become the law of the land, and then allow time tariff to be rejected by tne House.—(" Hear, hear " from Sir R. Peel.) He was glad that. the Right Hon. Baronet cheered, and he was quite satisfied; arid in conclusion he begged to thank the House for the attention with which the few remarks he had made had been listened to. Mr. C. W. Vs' YNN said that he felt the justice of the ob jections which had been urged by Hon. Members against this tax, and he was 'aware of the inequalities of the tax, but he knew of no other to which stronger objections would nut asply. —( Hear, hear.) He saw the objections, and he was ready to meet them and face them in consequence of the difficulties with which we had to centerl.—( Hear, hear.) He thought that in this question there would be no difference of opinion, imagining that every one believed that the time was come when they must in justice take some bold and decided measure, unless they wished to sacrifice that credit whiCh the country had constantly maintained. They were told they ought to resort to the measures proposed in the budget of last year. Now, that was an argument already disposed of ; the House had rejected the provusal, and the country at large had confirmed their decision. He did not think it necessary, therefore, to dwell upon that subject. Again it was said there might be an adJition to the assessed taxes. He remembered that, in the year 1798, such a proposal hid met with the concio rence i f the country ; but that wa; a period of peculiar emergency. There was at that time a triple assessment, and an increase of revenue had been obtained. Some of the largest proprietors in the kingdom were, however, opposed to the war altogether, and aveided, as much ae possible, contributing in any way to bear their share of the burdens to which the country was subject at the time. The taxes imposed fell, by this means, very unequally on the property of the country ; and the income tax had been proposed, under those circumstances, to remedy the ilicquality. tle believed it was owing to the that the country submitted so readily to a tax upon incomes. The great party who had ells• approved of the war had opposed that tax, and insisted on its repeal at the termination of the war. They succeeded in their pur pose. The country, however, had since fallen into embarrass. it enter, and some extraordinary effort should be made to support its credit. He confessed that ho felt great objection to an in crease in the assessed taxes, which he talt would press with very unequal weight upon the labouring classes. Again, it had been proposed to levy a tax upon successions. But he be. tweed it would be very difficult to carry out such a measure. It was easy, in raising a tax on funded property, to ascertain its exact amount ; but the same thing could not be said of real property Were they to have valuators appointed for the purpose, to fix the value of estates in the different parts of the country, and to determine the interest which each individual had in his property ? He thought such a system would lead to many difficulties and inconveniences, and that it would be more inquisitorial in its nature than the proposed income tax. It had been said that the income tax was a war tax; but he del nut attach much importance to that objection. The real questien was whether it was the hest mode of meeting the necessities of the time, and whether any other tax could ho fairer and more efficient. He confessed that the proposal of the Government was the best, in his opinion, which, under the circumstances, could be adopted. He did not labour under any apprehension that the tax would be continued after the ne ces,i.ies had passed away on which it had its rise. Mr. MACAUL AY ruse, and said, that since the House had decided that considerations of constitutional right and practi cal convenience should yield to a mere usage of 130 years, he, in the performance of a pledge which he had given to his con stituents would venture to submit to the House their wishes upon the subject then under, its consideration. Re trusted that before long it would be in his power te perform that duty in a manner more.regular and more agreeable to his own feel in.'s. He couet not believe in the long continnance of a n y abuse y which hail in its favour, for the time, a majority of a single vote, and not the shadow of even a single reason.— ( Hear, hear.) He would sta'e as concisely as he could, in pre senting a petition to the House—for his object was not vexation or delay—that he had been charged by the Lord Provost, the Town Council, and Magistrates of Edinburgh, in some manner or another to communicate to the House their opinion that the proposal to tax all kinds of income would lead to palpable in justice and oppression, would be unequal in its operation, would open the door to frauds, would debase the national character, and would render necessary the most inquisitorial arrange ments. Another resolution to the same effect had been placed in h s hands by the Chamber of Commerce of Edinburgh, and he had been requested to communicate, in some Parliamentary way, the substance of thatresolution. His own opinion upon the subject agreed v ith that of his constituents; and, that opinion had not been shaken by the speech delivered by the ,Right Hon Baronet the other evening---x speech to which he had paid the greatest attention. The real questions, as be thought, which they had to consider were these : Was the in come tax a tax which ought to be imposed only in circum stances of extreme emergency? and were the circumstances in which the country was now placed , circumstances of extreme emergency? His ans Aar to these questions was, that the income tax was one which nothing but the last extremity could justify, and that that last extremity did not now exist. With regard to the first objection to the tax, the Right Hon. Baronet had not said one word which affected it, or which touched upon it. He had not said one word tending to show that the In equality imputed to it did not exist, or that that inequality was not a frightful grievance. Instead of attemoting to prove that the inequality was not a most odious part of the tax, he had contented himself with showing them that it was an es sentiai part of the tax. Whenever any lien. Gentleman on the Opposition benches had said that the inequality was an in separable part of the tax, so often did the lion. G. ntlemen en the .;they side meet that assertion with applause. It was their principle—ho believed it was a sound principle—that it was next to impossible to separate a property tax from an income tax. He believed an income tax to be one of the most unjust and un equal taxes that could exist. He allowed that necessity might •:. • , i 13 to it, just as tiecesiity to , LOI fors, thoot - tn ils • ,amen just as tiecm , ,ity is of - - var to besiege towns, destroy suburbs, and ruin property, . without compensating the sufferers; because in great emergen- 111.11 SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVIINING. APRIL 12, 1842. eies the safety of the State Was (lid attpreme law, to tahich every ether consid-ration should yield. But inequality aifl injiistied so welt ad Wera admitted to exist in that tat were evils as great, that. ea c trarti6 necessity alone could lead them to sanction snail a rneasttre: It the: fax was unjust in substance. its made of collection was not led oppresalie: The Right Hon. Baronet appeared, on a former (wavier', to lean very much to an opinion expressed by the Hat. and Learned Member for Bath (Mr. fteebuck), ao opinion which lie believed was somewhat of this kind, that no hone't man should be afraid to state openly and honestly the amount of his pro perty. But was that a general feelina. Was it not a fact that people in this country ftlt ashamed to make an avowal of poverty ? Was it not a fact that men were anxious to look well in the eyes of the world? And did not that feeling prevail among that class in particular upon whom the proposed tax would press most severely? Waa it not a fact that half of their lives was passed in a con stant strugg!e against their poverty—in a constant struggle to appear a little above their real means? if thin were the cafe it would be to no purpose to say that a little philosophy would raise men above those feelings. While these were the feelings which people entertained, it would be cruel to despise :hem. For his part he should no more think it adv,sable to interfere with such feelings than that when he was in In da, he should treat diarespecifully that feeling among the native women of rank that it was a degradation that they should be seen unveiled, or that they should la/ seen talting with men. He knew that the f-eling was unreasonable, and he did not share it.—( A laugh.) But he did think that in legislating for a people he was bound in corniuon humanity not to treat their prejudittes with contenvil. He would appeal against the authority of the Right Honourable Baronet, and against the authority of the Hon. and Learned Member for Math, to the authority of one of the gtaivest moral philosophers, and certainly the greatest water upon political economy that ever lived— he meant Adam kim:th.—( Hear, hear, and chrers.) His declaration on that subject was strong, distinct, and expli cit. Ho said, that a tax on income could be raised only by means of an unusaal investigation into income, and such an in• ...... _se , vestigetion would necessarily be felt as more grievous than any tax whatever. Here, then, they had a tax, admitted to be in its own nature, and in substance, unjust ; pronounced by the greatest authorities, and felt by the body of the people, to he in the mode of cellection, the most vexatious of all taxes. This, then, was a tax which should be resorted to only in the last extremity. Did that extremity now exist? He denied that it di 1. He conceived that the Right Hon. Gentleman who carried this point on Frid y did not succeed in making out such a case . With regard to the question of Affghanistan, he thought it was no more than the truth to say, that though the Right Hon. Gentleman made a rhetorical use of that topic, yet what he said on the subject could be regarded in no other light than as mere sophistry.—(" Oh, oh I" from the Ministerial benches.) "Do you say," said the Right Hon. Gentleman, " that there are no disasters? Was there ever such a disaster as this?" And then, with great feeling, and, he had no doubt, with deep. sincere feeling, such as they must all entertain, he exclaimed, " Was there ever such a disaster—ever anything heard of like this—a whole army perishing, only one, two, or three persons. out of a great army, escaping to tell the tale of its destruction; and yet you talk of this as no extremity."—( Hear, hear.) He believed that in rme sense no person could feel more deeply than himself that this event was a deep and gainful disast, r ; not from any feelings such as those which an Hon. Member on the other side had at tempted some time ago to excite on that (the Opposition) side of the House ; for even if he did not consider that expedition defensible, and that was not a time for examining the question, he bore no share in the responsibility ; he was not even in Par liament when the expedition was sent; he was not in office till the expedition was over and Shah Soojah dethroned. There fore, in anything which he said on the subject, he spoke with out any sense of personal responsibility. But if every person who had read that story, if even foreigners who had read it, and foreigners entertaining no friendly feeling towards this country, were melted into sympathy, what, he might ask, must be the feelings of one who had been on terms of friendly intercourse with the brave and honourable men who had been bqtchered, and with the amiable women now at the mercy of the murderers of their husbands ?—( Hear, hear.) He could safely say that no public event which had ever occurred had given him so much pain. Disastrous in that sense, indeed—disastrous if they talked of disgrace to their arms—disastrous if they talked of the do mestic suffering entailed—disastrous if they thought of the brave men who had fallen—irretrievably disastrous if they thought of the feelings of some who were living—disastrous in a.l these respects all must admit the event to have been. But they were then to deal with it purely as a financial ques tion ; and the courage, the tremendous loss of life, the suf fering and wretchedness of the few who survived it, should not be introduced into the debate for the purpose of aggravating, fur the purpose of exaggerating. That was what he pro nounced an unfair, sophistical, and rhetorical use of this great calamity.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) The question which they were then to discus, was not a question of cala mity—the question was the income tax, as it affected pounds, shil lings, and pence. He would ask was it in the contemplation of that calamity that the Right Hon. Gentleman brought on his in come- tax ?—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear," from the Opposi tion. ) Was it not altogether an after-thought? This event, which was put in the fore front when the income tax was to be justified, was it even known when the income tax was de termined upon ?—(Cheers from the Opposition.) Had the Right Hon. Gentleman thought it necessary to add a single farthing to his Ways and Means in consequence of that cala mity ? And if he had not thought it necessary to make al addition of a single farthing to his Ways and Means, in conse uuence of that disaster, how could he call it, financially speak ing, a great and unparalelled disaster—a disaster such as ' was never known in the history of this country ?—( Hear, h , ar.) And though no information had been received from the Secretary at War, they were not altogether without the means of judging what would be the effect of the disaster in a financial point of view. Of course he did not mean to say that he could_ produce an exact estimate, or anything approaching to an exact estimate of the charge, but he could form some thing like an opinion. It was the ordinary course for the estimates to be brought in, and the supplies voted, before the Ways and Means were provided. Not having at present any estimate of the amount he could only say that he felt firmly satisfied that nothing could . be more futile than to cons itute 1 any comparison between the charge which this elisestrous event was likely to ley upon the country, and the charges even of the cheapest Europe in war—the charges of the last war it would be idle to talk of in comparison. His opinion was most strong and decided, as far as he could see, that the Government we e at present taking a very bold and spirited course': He knew nothing of the subject except what he saw in the public prints, but it appeared from all the information which lie had ob tained, that they were taking must vigorous measures for fur warding troops to the seat of the war.—(Hear, hear.) In all such measures they =tumid have his full and cord:al support, as much so is thiugh he sat en the other side of the Ileu,e. No sum of money, which was bona :fide necessary for tha• purpose, would be refused. Ile did not, however, antici pate, ,f ordinary rigour and prudence were shown, any disas trims consequences from the ovent to which he had referred. There was no deubt that firmness and prudence would be shown.—( Hear, betas.) There was no doubt that a Govern , ment,which had the Duk e o f W ellirgton fdr one of members, and which had access to the advice o so many eminent and experienced milita ry effort were not made Which cou ld ten d t o r e medy the disaster. meet, wou ld mss t inexcusable if every —( Hear, hear.) Besides, the Right Hen. Gentleman must vi remember that the principle ordinarily acted upon—he believed, invariably acted upon —was that all the troops sent upon such a service as this were a charge upon the Geverement. of. India. English Kyle should b ear t h e c ha rge o f the re-in flenerteohnitiennStusppsoesne thtaotut Right Hon. Baronet intended that the t he to India. Why, what re-inforce merits did he intend, .to send out there? He would - suppose t h a t 10,000 or 12,000 troops added to those which were in India would be most amply sufficient for any service for shish they a ight be designed. Noe, it he correctly re membered the army estimates, a regiment of 1,100 men in India cost 32,0001, or thereabouts. He believed the whole charge of the addition which the Right Hon. Gentleman con template' would fall somewhat under 400,0001. a year. Now, let them remember under what circumstances the income tax was introduced f irmerly. When the income tax was intrthiced in 17 93, Englan stood alone against France, Austria, and Spain : France ranging itself un the banks of the Mine, Austria bound this by a treaty, England not having a s i ng l e ally; Ireland in rebellions in that year ; the three per cents. at 50—under those circumstances, the income tax was introduced. 'there were then 300,000 soldiers in the army, 1110,000 seamen afloat ; . the navy estimates alone were higher than the whole estimates of the arm‘, navy, and ordnance, for the present year.—(Hear.) Of course he referred now to the year 1806. The late calamity was indeed a most seriqus and painful one; but it was not so great a.blow as to require that they should resort to a remedy which nothing but. the last extremity could justify.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He - must say it appeared to him that neither the proposition, nor the language of the Right Honourable Baronet was calculated to inspire a high and just idea of the spirit and resources of this country. Not. indeed, that he said the calamity was irreparable ; he now referred to his first speech ; yet wherever he (Mr. Macau lay) opened the French papers he found them using such language as this t—" See ,the signs that the English aristo cracy—that huge power which has been the terror of Europe. is now beginning to decline the most odious tax which could b devised, never before resorted to but in time of war, is about to be revived. Praise to the Minister who has shown such spirit." Were those terms of applause which an English Minister did seek to call forth ?—( Hear, hear.) He believed it to be a most certain and demonstrable fact, that at this moment England was better able (God forbid that the necessity should arise) to maintain a great war than she ever was in the whole course of her history.—( Hear.) Believii.g this, Ile could not wonder that politicians abroad, who knew the odiousness of this tax, that as soon as peace was restored it was the first which the voice of the whole nation compelled the Parliament to repeal— it was not strange that politicians abroad should form an err* neous Notion of the effects of the late disaster as esp:cted the power and resources of this country. Sir R. PEEL made some observations across the table. Mr. MACAULAY—The light Hon. Gentleman de clared that be had said nothing so alarming as be described. He (Mr. Macaula.}) had said what he believed to he important truths. He believed that the Right Hon. Baronet had taken advantage of the feeling naturally excited by the late calamity, and had used it with the skilfulness of a practised debater, to make it tell upon the financial question before the House, which was in fact a question totally distinct from it.. A few words with respect to another topic. The Right Hon. Gentle man had thought fit to , the state of the Indian said that there was a and he intimated that in ii i d n en t fia r ct o lic d te ui n t . e I i nl n d t i o il ae that. as Hight% well c Ha u s s o s in t r o : n E , 8 : ag i r a i: m nn e ed l t ! some mode or other it might be necessary for this country to make up the deficiency. surely it was important, before they voted away money, to know precisely for what purpose it was to be applied.—( Hear.) He (Mr. Alacaulay) must altogether dismiss from his view this unexplained demand, and confine his attention to existing circumstances and difficulties. Since the last war there had been twenty-two millions of taxes taken off, and he believed .he was not incorrect in saying that those taxes, if new in ex istence; would yield a much larger sum. Why was the tax which was the last imposed and the first re pealed, to be, without any overbearing necessity, re-inflicted upon the country. Consider for a moment the article of sugar. the Right Honourable Gentleman's memory appeared to fail him on that subject, when he said on Friday that he had never denied that an increase of revenue might he derived from the alterations proposed by tin late Government In tne duties on timber and sugar. The Right Hon. Gentleman said he used the argument with regard to ether things, but his (Mr. Macaulay's) memory was quite the other way, and he had got a copy of the speech mode by the Right Hon. Gentleman, which confirmed his impres sion. And he believed he may appeal to the whole House, whether the report was not almost verbally correct. The Right Hon. Gentleman then referred to that part of Sir R. Peel's speech, in which he said that h e could not expect to de rive an immediate revenue by having recourse to theveasures • of the late Government. Iherefere his (Mr. Macaulay's) memory was confirmed by the report of the Right Hon. Ba ronet's speech, and the only argument which he brought for ward, and which had received such an overwhelming answer from his Right Hon. Friend. ho said, on Friday night, he had not used with rega (I to sugar and coffee. The truth was, that when he eitt!red upcn that ~ process of exhaus tion," and enumerated the devices for obtaining a revenue, and when he came to t hat part of the plan of the late Government which he ought have repeated, he felt the diffi culty, and he now said that he had not used any arguments wttit respect to it, beenu , ••• he knew that they , eul.l h • utterly . flitting at,,l impotent. --(etteer , • ) 'utii i: , abu..ilicd of 1 now i arguments he returned for the first time to the itory about slavery, but when he (Mr. Macaulay) saw-hou'ples with regard to the revenue raised from slave grown tobacco.— ( Hear, hear. ) And slave growq coffee.—(Cheerse) On which a reduction had been made in that very tariff—( Hear, hear)-=how was it. possible for him under those circumstances to think that slavery was the real object in view, and he must confess diet it was a strong effort of charity on his part to believe the Right Hon. Baronet sincere.—(Laughter and Cheers.) If he were to find other reasons why a reduction of the ditty on sugar was not proposed as one of the means to meet the deficit of the revenue, upon looking to the whole history of the matter he might suggest that last year, when it was determined to turn out the late Govern ment, and the popular cry of slavery was raised, and a reso lution was passed in terms condemning the project of the late Government on philanthropic grounds, the names of one or two Hon. Members were mentioned in connextion with the subject.—( Hear, hear.) Now he (Mr. Macaulay) appeated before a constituency at all times zealous in the Anti Slavery sauce, and he found all the statements of the party opposite were treated as hollow pretences.—(Cheers.) Well, the Right Hon. Gentleman came into power after the vote of last year, and he did not propose a reduction of the duty on sugar because he knew that he could not propose a measure, which he opposed on moral grounds, without exposing himself to the charge of gross inconsistency, but an income tax was the price which the country had to pay.—( Hear, hesr.) The Eight Hon. Gentleman when he could not find reasons for his proposition, made them, and with one swoop he did away with 600,000/. derived tom the timber duty, and his firm belief was, that the throwing away of 600,000/. of timber duty, was a greater misfortune than what had occurred in Affghanistan. It was clear that they were going to loose 600,0001. in the one case, and he hoped that co great a sum would not be lest in consequence of what had happened in Affghanistan.—( Hear.) And when, instead of making an additional 500,0001. by tim ber, the Right Hon. Baronet pitched over the 600,00t4 they were receiving from it, and was forcing an income tax on the country to supply the deficiencies in the revenue, he must say that he seemed to him to be employed in making a deficit in order that he may have an excuse for imposing an income tax. —(Cheers.) Believing, then, that the tax could be proved, and had been proved, to be one which should not be imposed, except in the extreme necessity of the country ; that the Right Hon. Baronet had exaggerated the financial difficulties of the country ; that he had brought into the discussion of thesubject matter whi h should not be connected with it ; that he had made vague hints of the crippled state of the Indian finances, wthout giv.ng the smalles enlightenment on the subject—that he had refused a plan simple and plain, and which would benefit the public, while it would partly supply the deficiencies, —that he had thrown away sources of revenue. Under these circumstances he felt he would not be discharging his duty if hedid not vote for the motion of his Noble Friend.—(Cheers.) Lord STANLEY said, that he was anxious before the debate carne to a close—especially after the speech they had just heard from the Right Hon. Gentleman who last sat down —to state as shortly as he could the grounds on which, not without reluctance, but from a conviction of its necessity, he concurred in that course which was unanimously resolved upon by her Majesty's Cabinet as the only course—as the fitting course by which they should meet the great difficulties of the country, and endeavour to find a remedy for the financial and other embarrassments bequeathed to them by the late Government.—(Loud cheers.) Widely as Gentiemen on both sides may stiffer as to the course they were taking, and to whatever vote they may come on the present occasion, it was satisfactory to him to know that much of the time of the House had been saved by the concurrence, more unanimous, or, at least, more general, than he ever remem bered on any question approaching to the present in weight and importance, as existed with regard to the premises on which their conchision is to be founded.—(Cheers.) The fact of a deficiency was clear, palpable and notorious.—(Cheers. ) It is admitted by the Noble Lord, that for a successioniof years there was a continued increase of a deficiency in the revenue to meet the annual expenditure of the country. He stated th truth—not the whole truth—but ha stated the truth with re gard to the deficiency of the present year of 2,500,0001., and for the next of 2,600,0001. But he went further ; for, now being no longer in office, he charged them with those acts for the purpose of creating that popularity of which Hon, Gentlemen on the other side were so fond. They were now no longer charged w.th the responsibility of proposing taxes as a Government to meet the financial em barrasments of the country by vigorous rheasures.—(Cheers.) The time for mate shifts had passed away.—(Loud Cheers.) The time was came to when they must take same effectual mode of equalising the revenue with the expen diture, and they thought it right and necessary . to raise the amount of taxation requisite to meet the deficiencies.- 1 ( Hear, hear.) Here was another admission made by .Gentle man on the other side—namely, that the commercial interests laboured under a state of great depression and difficulty, and on every side it was admitted that there was a great and growing deficiency; that that deficiency must be met; that no temporary expedient could abate that deficiency, that it is impossible to do away the evil by a temporary plan to meat the evil, and that they must raise the amount required by taxation, and that commerce labouring in distress must not be subjected to any additional burden. —(Loud Cheers. ) Now, here were admissions made not only by that Gentleman, but by every Member on both sides of the House who had ad dressed themselves to the consideration of the question that then engaged their attention ; and they had also another valu able admission, he believed from the Hon. Member for Taun ton, the Vice-President of the Board of Trade; prom him the had an admission that if they were now to have recourse the scouted and condemned budget of last year, which they Noble Lord brought forth in his resolutions, that that budget, and a large increase of taxation in addition to it, would be in sufficient to meet the present emergency.—( Hear, hear.) These were the unanimous admissions made by the House when it came to discuss the question of how they were to meet the de ficiency. And now, not to be behind Honourable Gentlemen opposite in admissiona, they, on this side of the House admitted that the income tax was a measure which, except in a case of great emergency, could not be justified, The question before them, then, was this : Is this such a case of emergency ? If Hon. Gentlemen opposite admitted, as they must admit., the necessity of equalis ing the revenue and the expenditure ; and if they cannot show, as a less objectionable mode of meeting the exigency, they must come to a direct taxation. He said direct taxation, because the Noble Lord h. sso carefully worded his resolution, as to iiit conceal beneath it a most impolitic ambiguity; the )dif ference of opiai which he knew existed in the ranks of his supporters with regard to the kind of taxation to be resorted to. Having now mentioned the points of agreement, he might now be permitted to mention the , points of disagreement among Gentlemen on the otheeraide of the House.—(Hear.) The Honourab'e Member' for Ipswich, who seemed to have got up a little scheinof his own, which at the proper time he would propound e r> the House, in dis cussing the question of the emergeney said, he (Lord S.) en tirely agreed with him, that peaee'laad its times of emergency as well as war, and admitted tire they were in that condition i n which d.rect taxation must be resorted to.—( Heir, hear. ) By the confession of the don. Member for Ipswich, the bring ing forward a property tax was a wise and politic measure. ' But. the Noble Lord, if he admitted a property Sax at all, contended . that all equity and 'justice and sound sense required them to' admit an income tax also, and that if they threw out the in come tax, they could not for a moment stand up;and support a property tax. But, said the Noble Lord now, admitting that I couple them both together, the present . circum staimes - of the country give no reason for introducing a property tax as any direct tax whatever. They had also the testimony of anniher Gentleman on the other side, the Member for Greenock, and he states that in his judgment a property tax end an income tax must go together; the House could not object to one and not to the other ; tkat if they resorted to direct taxation, it must take effect on all property alike, de rived from incomes of every,description. In this he entirely agrees with the Noble Lord ; but he would be found to differ from very many gentlemen on the other side of the House, who were exceedingly ready to tax all real property—(heer, hear) —who cared not how heavy were the burdens they laid upon the landed •or funded property—(Hear, hear)—but who took especial care of all property arising from un certain and contingent sources. Then the Hon. Member for Coventry when he came to discuss what they should take instead of a tax or income, or property, referring to the bud get of last year, said that they were periectly right in the state of their relations with foreign countries, not to take the duties on sugar as part of their budget. With regard to the timber 'duties, the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat dawn, had told teem thae the loss on the timber duties was equal to the great financial diastar that had occurred in Affghanistan, of which he shouln presently have a word or two to say to the Right Hon. Gentleman,—(Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches. That was the language held by the Right Honourable Gentleman on the other side, while the Hon. Member for Coventry, speaking of the same duties, and the same reduction of them says, that for the extension of the commerce and the general community, it was impoasibe to propose a measure more beneficial. Here was a sample of the agreement and the harmony among gentlemen en the other side of the House, when we propose to meet the emer gency which they cannot deny ; they cannot avoid all sorts of differences among themselves without being able to point out any better expedient. Now what are the circumstances in which it is justifiable to have recourse to an income tax? It was not the emergency of a state of war alone, but the emer gency of that state of things in which the revenue was• insuffi cient to meet the current expenditure; a state of things which, if permitted to go on, must injure the credit, and con sequently damage the prosperity of the country.—( Hear.) The Noble Lord told them that in no case should an income tax be resorted to, except in a time of war : he dial not think that that admission of the Noble Lord was very complimentary to the Government, by whose management and policy, the finances of the country, at the end of twenty years peace, were brought into such a state that there should he a necessity to resort to an income tax to supply the deficiency.—( Loud cheers from the Tory benches.) To that extreme measure, which heretofore had been considered among the peculiar re sources of the country in a time of war—(Cheers)—but neitner could he admit that in the present state of things they were in such a condition as that described by the Hon. Member for Lewes, who said they were in a state of profound peace. A state of profound peace. Letthem look at their relations with all the world, relations that had been bequeathed to them by Hon. Gentlemen opposite—(Cheers.) Let them look at the state-of their relations in the North, in the South, in the East, in the West I Let them look at this moment.—(Oh, oh, and cheers from the Ministerial side s ) He earnestly hoped, and he was sanguine enough to believe that their differences with the 'United States of America might be brought to a friendly and happy conclusion ; but he asked when ever had it been necessary for the state of their Canadian provinces to keep there 20,000 British bayonets ?—(Cheers. ) When before, in a state of profound peace, had it been necessary to maintain in Canada an army of 20,000 men ?—( Cheers.) A state of pro found peace ! Look at China. Look at the war they had stirred up there, and let them tell him the amount of financial difficulty they had created. Let them cakulate. if they could, the amount of financial embarrassment which they had secured them for time fortune of the war.—(Cheers.) Do not measure it by the number of troops, by the 0,000 or 10,000 men of all arms, and by the fleet which they had there, but was there not a war, then, of which no man could see the result, and in which every man knew but little glory could be ' reaped by the British arms, while there was much uncertainty whether or not, they might encounter signal disaster and failure. A state of profound peace 1 Look at India. Let the Right Honourable Gentleman turn his eye to that portion of the Indian empire, of which the Right Hon. Gentleman had spoken, contending that the disasters in Affghanistan, even nude a mere sophistry and plausible argument. The state of Affghanistan mere sophistry ! The Right Hon. Gentleman himaelf, was glad enough to disclaim all personal responsibility for that, state of things.--(lmmense cheers from the Ministe rial benches.) The Right lion. Gentleman who had subse quently filled the situation of Secretary at War, must have had means in his official capacity of calculating to a certain extent, the dangers and disasters they were likely to meet, and well end wisely did the Right Hon. Gentleman tell them, that when the expedition was undertaken he was not in power—(Cheers) —that lie was not in the Cahinit—that he was not even in Parliament ; that so far from counselling such a war he was not even in England, nor a Member of the Administration till the expedition had come too its completion. Ah ! but then came the time when they were warned by the Duke of Wel lington what would be the result. They would recollect the prophetic sagacity with which he told them that triumph they might that he had full confi dence in the bravery of their troops, and in the g allantry and skill of the army, but when they should have succeeded then would come the difficulty of -keeping possession. -And you did succeed, and you slept on the top of the volcano, and on woke only to find yourself overwhelmed by the fiery tor n nt, 'I he 'Right Hon. Gentleman admitted, indeed, that this was a great disaster, but that, in a financial point of view, it was nothing at all—that, in afinancial point of view, while, addressing a British House of Commons, he said, was the only light in which i they had to view it.---(Oh, oh, from the Opposition.) Even on the low ground he would meet the Bight lion. Gentleman, , and tell him that he takes a false view of our financial diffi calties, occasioned by their miserable policy, with regard to Affghanistan. Would the Right Hon. Gentleman, the late President of the Board of Control, coincide with him? He knew the Bight Hon. Gentleman's knowledge of India, and his official connexion with that department had taught him to estimate more gloomily, and he believed more truly, the financial embarrassment consequent on the disasters our army had sustained in Affghanistan—the disaster which, they were told by the Right Hon. Gentleman, was not, in a finan cial point of views worth the 609,0001, they were going to give up en the timber duties. But they were going to send out ten thousand men more, and that would not cost more than 25,000/. ; and that, in a financial point of view, the misfortune was a mere matter of sophistry. and in a financial point of view contemptible. Contemptible, was it? How did he view the declaration of the Right Hon. Gentleman as to the Freemasonry of Islamism? What did he tell you of the religious feeling that had been excited ? What did he tell you of a great Maliometan success? That it would fall•like a spark upon, tow. That when he forms an estimate of pounds, shillings, and pence, of the loss of these brace men —(Cries of " Oh." and " Hear)—when he made his calcula tion—(" Oh, oh ")--when he has made his calculation of the sum of money—(" Oh, oh ")--he was quoting the Right Hon. Gentleman's own words; and he told those Gentlemen who cried "Oh, oh," on this occasion, thouet he admitted that the disaster—a disastei not less than W i lifilheren—yet he affirms that the loss is less than the amount given up on the timber duty; that on the present occasion they had only to deal with it as a financial question, and one which was to be prop 'so d merely as a measure of pounds, sinning., and pence, would the Right Hon. Gentleman say, when he had calculated the amount of pounds, shillings, and pence, by which we are financially to measure this great disaster to the British arms. I say he has omitted in those calculations, or rather those fearful anticipations, which would necessarily arise in any man who gave a moment's considerrio is to the subject, all these consequences that might arise from this great Mahometan's success, which was falling like sparks on tow all the consequences that might Spring from that Freemasonry of Islamism which extended from Morocco to Coromandel.—(Cheers.) If our Empire in India resin upon that prestige of opinion, who shall calculate is a financial point of view the ruinous and extravagant expenditure to which we must he led, it we intend to support our character its India, and maintain, against the spread of the feeling to which he had alluded, as well as against the memory of recent disasters, the opinion of the invincibility of British arms. Was not the Right Hon. Gentleman aware that besides the deficiency of 2,500,0001., there was also the war of Affghanistan to be provided for, and the recent disaster to be repaired.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") However gloomy were the apprehensions of her Majesty's Go vernment at the beginning of the session, they were not fully aware of the extent of the disasters in Affghanistan.— (Cheers.) Still they had foresight enough to think of making provision for the evil that might come.—(Cheers.) They did not ant upon the aphorism of the Hon. Member for Ips wich, that sufficient for the day was the evil thereof.—(Tory cheers.) But, in January last, they did know that it would be necessary to call for an increase of taxation, not without consi dering all the objections which would be raised against any measure of taxation which they might bring forward.-- ( Cheers.) They knew how skilfully and ably, and how un fairly—(Cheers)—those objections would be brought forward— hut yet they came to the conclusion that by indirect taxa tion alone they would not be able to meet the difficulties which were not of their creation. —(Cheers. ) But that by the financial arrangements proposed by his Right Hen. Friend, they would be able not only to meet the deficiency, but at the same time greatly to relieve the commerce and industry of the country. The Noble Lord opposite said that all difficulties would have been avoided if the House had conceded the budget which he had brought in last year. In proposing that budget the Noble Lord had spoken of the howl of the old slave-holding party.—( Cheers.) But the Noble Lord had this year an oppor innity of again proposing that part A his budget, and the House had condemned it as far as regarded that item, and he sent up to the other branch of the Legislature a bill framed upon an opposite principle.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord disclaimed being the enemy of the landed interest, and yet he said that what he should propose would be an increased impost upon the assessed taxes, and a new duty upon the transfer and succession of real property. The noble Lord argued as if real property had escaped from ally taxation, and overlooked all the argument of his Right Honourable Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who showed that the land now paid taxes equal to those paid by personal property in various forms.—(Cheers and counter cheers.) lion. Gentlemen who cried, " Oh, oh !" were not conversant with real preperty.—( Great cheering, and tries of " Oh, oh !") They did not know what were the bur • dens actually borne by the land, nor what were the duties im posed upon the transfer of real property by settlement and conveyance.—(Cheers, and cries of "Oh, oh!") He would not weary the House by going through the whole of a subject which had already beets nearly exhausted. He would not deny that an income tax must partake of an inquisitorial character. Neither would he go the length of the Hon. and Learned Mos her for Bath, who said that no honest man could object to make public his real circumstances ; for he (Lord Stanley) could understand the ease of an limiest man to whom it would be most inconvenient and painful to be compelled to say exactly what his income was.—( Hear.) Still he thought it was possible to avoid such inconvenience, and to divest. the impost of much of its inquisitorial character, and to guard against any greater breaches of morality than would be involved in such. an increase of the assessed taxes as the Noble Lord himself did not hesitate to propose. To the ' inequality of the tax, he confessed he did not see so high an objection. He had heard an Hon. Gentleman, he did not re member whom, say if such a tax wore to take off the national debt—if it was to set the country free for the future from a la-ge proportion of the debt, and if for that purpose they were going to raise ten or fifteen per cent. or even twenty per cent., he would not object to an income tax. Now, in his (Lord Stanley's) view, such would he a case of gross injustice and the present was not. They were not calling upon the country to pay its past incumbraeces, nor to provide for future exigencies. They were calling upon every man of this country, according to his moans, be those means what they might, ex empting those of very moderate incomes, but upon every man who had a competency they were calling to coutributo from his resources to the payment of the expenses of the year. Whether incomes Were derived from fixed capital, and were 'such as remained after expenditure had ceased, or whether they were of uncertain tenure, or were mese annuities, they were calling upon every mats in his situation (it might be unfortunate for him to be in . the plssession of a larger income at a particular time) they were calling upon every individual in the country at large to provide fur the annual expenditure of the country. So fa; from its being an unequal, ut just, and oppressive mode of proceeding, he be lieved it to be a wise, sound, and politic mode ; very difierent from the system pursued by the late Government, but not, in his mind, less deserving the attention of the country, becaust not altogether following the precedent set by that Govern ment. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Tippe rary, in a very eloquent speech—[The Noble Lord was here reminded that the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Sheil) to whom he alluded • was Member for Dungarvon.l The Noble Lord then want on to say, that he had been so accustomed to consider the Right Hon. Gentleman as his (Lord Stanley's) re presentative—(Langhter)—that he had totally forgotten that the Right Hon. Gentleman had ceased to sit for Tipperary. 'The Right Hon. Gentleman the other night in taunting his ( Lord Stanley's) friends and thole on that side of the House that supported them, hai quoted two lines from the poet Waller— " Still as you rise, the State exalted too ; Knows no disturbance while 'tis changed by you." The quotation would have applied still better had the Right Gentleman gone cn and quoted two lines further— " Changed is the world's great scene, when without noise, The rising sun n'ght's vulgar light destroys." (Laughter.) From an opponent he (Lord Stanley) must say, that that was a most flattering testimony to the change which had taken place, and ho knew it would be more emphatic if they looked that the change took place without noise. There was not so much fuss and bustle ; more business was done; where things were dark and obscure and uncertain, and men got perchance into the right path, they knew not how; for the present they would keep it, and would diverge from it —they saw nothing but what was under their nose—(Laugh ter)—but the moment the change took place, which had been alluded to by the Right Hon. Gentleman, all that had been dark became light—all that had been confwion became order —men saw obstacles in their path, but found thernselv,s able to surmount those obstacles, and did not go stumbling into every puddle which might lie in the way of those who walked by night. He (Lord Stanley) did not think that the Right Hon. Baronet required any vindication for preferring his own Flan to the course of the late Government as indicated last year, and as partly shadowed forth in the course of the discus sion by Hon. Gentlemen opposite. Whatever alarm might be said to be felt as to the present measure, be re peated he did not think that they required roy vindication, nor that. they were fairly to be charged with hesi tating to confront great interests, or with seeking for them selves popularity. They proposed a measure, which he trusted the House would adopt, and which, he believed, would meet with the general approbation of the country at large—a mea stire against which he was, at least, justified in saying that the interval of Easter,which was so earnestly prayed for, had not pro •duced that universal burst of execration which seemed to have been expected—a measure, moreover, which proposed to raise the credit, and redeem the embarrassments of this country, at a time when its commercial interests required it—a measure which had extorted, even from strong political opponents, this honourable testimony, that it was an honest, a direct, and a straightforward measure.—(Cheers.) _ . Mr. LA BOUCHERE said, thal the Noble Lord who had just sat down had addressed the House with his accustomed , vehemence and ability; but he was sorry to be obliged to add, with much less than his accustomed fairness. He (Mr. L.) should nut attempt to follow the Noble Lord through all the glaring misstatements and misrepresentations which he had made. But there was one which he had heard with peculiar regret, and to which he would not say, in justice to his Right Houotirable Friend, the Member for Edin bargh (Mr. Macaulay), but in justice to the House and his (Mr. L's. ),own feeljngs, he thcught it necessary to call the immediate attention of the House. He thought the mis-statement so was and obvious, that it must have struck every Member equally that had heard it, as beyond almost any thing which had been a precedent in that House in the way of mis-statement. The Noble Lord said, and he (Mr. L.) took down the words at the time, that his Right Hon. Friend had treated the disaster which had occurred to the British army in Affghanistan as a mere financial question, and he added that the Right Hon. Gentleman had estimated the loss of brave men by pounds, shillings, and pence. He (Mr. L. ) therefore ventured to say, that as nothing could be more irn. proper and odious then such a sentiment, as the Noble Lord attempted to fasten upon his Right Hon. Friend, and nothing could be more different from the general' character and dispo sition of the Right Hen. Gentleman; and also from the words and arguments used by him on the occasion referred to, he (Mr. L.) really felt it almost unnecessary, for he was sure there was not a man in the House, who had listened to the Noble Lord, on whatever side that Member might be sitting, that was not aware of the answer which he (Mr. L.) was now going to give. His Right Hon. Friend in very eloquent and forci ble language, has cleared himself of even the possibility of an impuation. He had expressed that which all must feel, namely, deep regret at the disaster, he trusted temporary disaster, which had befallen the British army ; but he had added that they were called on to con sider not of the policy that led to that conduct, nor of its mili tary consequences, but solely of it as a question of finance; .and in that sense, and in that sense only, had spoken of it. He (Mr. L.) thought that his Right Hon. Friend was justified in using that*, argument when they were called on to vote a tax founded on those circumstances which might be alleged as one of the reasons for the tax.—( Hear. ) He ( Mr. L.), therefore, thought the Right Hon. Gentleman perfectly justified in using such an a r g ument, and it was not worthy of the Noble Lord to ref* to it as he had done. The injustice of such an allusion I* thought the Noble Lord must, upon reflection see, and would, no doubt, regret it. In truth he (Mr. L.) attributed that departure fom the usual fairness of the Noble Lord to those symptoms of irritation which they had seen persons connected with the Government in the course of these debates evince. Notwithstanding the confidential tone with which they had spoken to the House, and the country, of the ,financial s cheme they pr o p ose d, h e cou ld not help attributing ver y great doubts being entertained by them, as to whether the country would receive that mea sure with such entire satisfaction , as they affected to believe. The Right Hon. Member for Tamworth, in the speech which he had addressed to the House on Friday night, expressed his astonishment at his having encountered determined re sistance on this subject. He (Mr. L.) could am sure the Riglit ilonturable Gentleman that neither on the present occasion, nor on any former one had he expressed him self toward; him in a manner inconsistent with personal respect, which he felt more for the character of the iiight ile. nourable Gentleman, than for his high and 01E0011 stalks% Put at the same time, in spearing for himself, he (Mr. L.) must say, that when a Government brought forward a measure, cf which he, in his conscience disapproved, and which he thought dangerous to the country, he felt it his duty to offer it determined oppoei. tion. He would give such a measure no factious or vexations opposition for the purpose of delay ; but by every means which the constitutional ruled of the House allowed, lie would oppose the Income TS4C Bill on its Grit, second, and third madiegre and if he ;did not do so he did not think he would b e d o i ng his d u ty to his eionstitnents and the country. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member far Tanawerth bad taunted the Late Government with having clung to offieh, at though supported by very small majorities', and contrasted their situation with his (Sir R. Peel's) own,. supported as he now was by a considereble majority. lie was surprised to beer the Right lion. Gentleman using language of that kind, and thought he must have fnrgottrn the history of the year 1835 ( Cheers) —when there was a Government which remained in of a very considerable time, although it was not only not supported by a small majority, hat. Wm *squally, (taring the whole ',cried of its existence, in a very considerable niinerit r.— (Cheers. ) fie did not mean to reflect on the erinduct of the ,tight Hoe. Gni:lsmer] on that ommeon. Ile bail no doubt hut that the Night Hon. Gentleman had thee been act nated by very proper neives, but it was a little too much, aft er the events et 181 e, for the Right Hon. Gentleman to be so elated by his having now a la. pe naajoritn cs to taunt the Lite GOWN nment with having held Atte although only min ported by a small one. The Right lion. Gentleman had said that the late Government had deemed ;'reposing their ;dens of commercial reform until they had no chance of carrying these. Now the late Government at its first advent to power, when it was strong in puldie support, and strong in the sup port of a large Parliamentary majorite, had proposed an alter ation in the timber duties. That prepositive' the ;tight lion. Gentleman and others acting in concert with him, had by raising the cry against free trve, and appealing to the influence of those interetted in supporting monopoly, been enabled to defeat, and knowing that, was it surprising thet they should hesitate to bring forward their measures of commercial reform until they felt that further delay would be dangerous to the in terests of the country, and having felt that they proposed those measures to Parliament, and staked their existence as a Govern. merit upon the issue.—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord who bad just sat down had said that now, for the first time, they (the Opposition) admitted that it was necessary to make seine effort to place the revenue and the expenditure upon a satis factory basis. Why, that was the point taken by his Honour able Friend, the Member for Portsmouth, in proposing the ad. dition to the *mooed taxes in 1840; that was the_ground taken by him last year in bringing forwardhis budget. Gentlemen op. polite had objected to the measures they hadproposed to re medy that deficiency, but they certainly bad no right to say that the necessity for making some finanical effort had neve' , bean acknowledged until now. The Noble Lord had gone on int t h o aekm s e a e y t goof corio a s t oper l o i t a ( p, eoisi proposed last Mr. ys: Labouche re)year won ln o h w a d admitted em inadequatei t edthat to and that it would be neceihary, is order to do so, to resert so additional taxation. He (Mr. Labouchere) would admit what he had stated, but he (31r. Labouchere) had else said that, although he believed the budget of last year would, if now adopted, be insufficient to make tip the whole of the deficiency, and that rather than suffer that deficiency to remain, it was the duty of the Government to have recourse to direct taxation, yet, that if the alterations then proposed in the sugar duties, in the timber duties, and in the Corn-laws, had been adopted, the deficiency would have been so small as to afford no excuse to the Government for resorting tench a measure as the income tax.—(Cheers.) Hon. Gentlemen opposite themselves, therefore, had created the necessity for the • income tax, if any such existed—(Cheers)--and the House ought to be aware, and the country ought to be aware, and the country was becoming aware, that if there were any necessity for the imposition of the income tax, that tax was the price they were paying for the continuance of the sugar monopoly and the Corn-laws.—(Loud cheers.) He had not heard any reply te that point from Hen. Gentlemen opposite.—(Cheers.) In all their speeches they had cautiously avoided all allusion to that part of the subject.—(Loud cheers.) The Noble Lord had thought proper to say. that if they objec ted to the Government propositions they ought to state what course they would recommend. Although he (Mr. La bouchere) acknowledged there would be muck force in that argument, yet he could not but express his surprise at hearing it from Hon. Gentlemen opposite.—(Cheers.) When, during the course of last year, the then Government proposed their financial measures, which were opposed by Gentlemen oppo site, those Gentlemen at that time cautiously abstained from giving any opinion as to what would be the proper measure to be adopted. lie (Mr. L.) did nut mean to say it was their duty ,to have gone into the technical details of the measures, but they would not give the smallest indication of what they thought ought to be done. Hon. Gentlemen opposite then said it is enough that we negative your measures ; we will not say whether we think new taxes ought to be imposed, or whether other changes should be made in the commercial policy. The Right Hon. Gentleman had on former occa•jons protested against having recourse to the system of loans, but on that oc casion he cautiously abstained from committing himself merit to that extent.—(Cheers.) He (Mr. Labouchere) had thought that conduct unworthy of the Right Hon. Gentleman.—(Loud cheers.) He (Mr. Labouchere) thought that no Gentleman, occupying the high position of the 'tight lion. Gentleman, ought n under such circumstances, to have so comp'etelv ab stained from stating what were his general views. his "Noble Friend (Lord John Russell) had not adopted such a lineof conduct.- 5 , Cheet s.) \Vith that frankness which belonged to his character—( Cheers)— and which did him so much honour —(Loud cheers)—his Noble Friend, in proposing his re solutions, had gone into details to a degree almost hor tiering on the verge of indiscretion—(Loud cheers)-_ lie (Mr. Labouchere) almost thought his Noble Friend had, in his ingenuous frankness, gone too far; but he (Mr. Labou e) would not imarsel pith him for having dime so. Tho R ght Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Tamwortie had ex pressed great indignation at the idea that it should be supposed that he had adopted any of his measures from those of his op ponents. The Right lion. Gentleman said that all his mea sures were original ; that they were exclusively his own, and was extremely uffended at the idea that it should Le supposed that he had received any hints from the measures of his predecessors, He had no fear, but the country could do impartial justice to all. Has thought the Bight lion. Baronet hai attempted to run away us its, credit v Bich did not belong to him. lie bad left ethers the battle and the burden of the clay, and lied given diem no very great support—if his conduct could not be charac terised as a et , sided opposition. He then stepped forward in the eleventh Ileum when be found that hi att m he sei t r id o e u w t ag as a tu i r w ri r i s n o g n , te hen it found it was impossible to resist the application o f th a t principle, he then endeavoured to g to whom the country was indebted. He (Mr. Labouchere) would not waste the time of the House by debating this ques tion; he was perfectly willing to leave it to the public at large, being satisfied that hs judgment would do justice to all. The 'tight Honourable Baronet quoted the speech, and the resolutions of Lord Althorp, when he proposed his resolution to the House of Comment upon the subject of taxation when the repeal of the malt tax was proposed. He quoted the resolution of Lord Althorp, and his language on that occasion, and attempted to show that at that time Lprd Althorp Was favourable to a property tax. He (Mr. Latent ehere) had looked to that speech, and to that resolution, and he was really as onished at the attempt. of the Right Hon. Gen tleman in striving to prove that Lord Althorp was favourable to such a tax. Ile should observe that at that time certain taxes had been repealed, and it was thought necessary to resort to a property or income tax. Lord Althorp said, if they re pealed the malt tax they must apply a property tax. Did "Lori Althorp by that say that lie was favourable to a property ant/ income tax? The Right Hon. Gentleman should have stated, when quoting the opinion of Lord Althorp, that Lord Althorp dal net at all contemplate a property tax. Lord Althorp said that, the country should never receive less then ten or twelve millions from such a tax. What hat/ misled the Right Hon. Baronet, was that Lord Althorp had frequently stated that abstractedly, and in theory a property tax was the must just of all taxes, but be said its inquisitorial process was most disadvantageous. It was this that ought to deter the House from laming this measure into a law unless it was convinced of its real necessity. It was a part of the English character so feel disgust at any investigation of their private affairs. This was a valuable part of their character. The independence of the people would revolt at the investiga tion of their affeirs by the Government officers. The income tax was accompained by an ingnisi , orial process; it was a necessary part of the tax, anti to attempt to do without it, became a scarcely less evil, as it would fall unjustly. Now, if this were the case, he would then ask whether it was worth their while, whether it was safe, whether it was politic, to proposes tax of this nature to the country; even if they themselves were of opinion that it was the beat course that could be pursued, they should not adopt it, unless they could act. on it under such circumstances as would speak fur them selves as being of advantage for the country. foe its honour abroad and its safety at home. He should only detain the House with one or two more observations ; and they should he confined to the tariff. lie could only say, with regard to it, that it contained much of infinite value and importance ; and he regretted to say that that which appeared to him to be the most valuable was that which had excited the greatest opposition. He. approved of the duties upon corn, cattle. and provisions—that was no new opinion of his. lie perfectly agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman, in the determination to which he had arrived relative to those articles, and if he had been in a posi tion to have proposed a tariff, he should have proposed a simi lar one to that of the Right Hon. Gentleman, so far as these articles were concerned; and whatever opprobrium might at. tech to those articles, he was ready to bear his share in it There was no doubt that these measures must produce the most beneficial results to the general interests ; and he believed that the removing of the duty from foreign metals, would be of great advantage to the industrial portion of the community. He was glad to hear what the Right Honourable Gentleman had said relative to the commercial treaty with France.--(The Right Honourable Gentle man here lowered his voice so much, as to be almost inaudible.) He was of opinion that they were dealing with there trade questions in a 'twiner in hich we could afford to deal with them ;et the same tkaire lie thought that those questioni should be looked at with asview to avoid fresh taxation. He would only conches , by saying that he opposed the tax from a deep conviction that it was not necessary. That summed up the whole of his ob jections. He did not say that there might not be circum stances in which the imposition of such a tax would be ad» circumstances tihik there now e v x is i a s h te le d. ;_ rH t en ti r e , did r n . o ) t thi H n e k t d h id at tr ot h adoptingabisan and the distasteful proposal g on the people of any sufficient reason for imposin f t t h h e is ir eo fe u e n li t i r ,g y q. a ; lo ax w ri a oa s o li f e r n aid to tha tis t e b i y r the Government they would be holding out a signal of distress ich would dr the people unwillin e to foreign nations, and a version ndthat to uc they sh a tax, w would excite th roug h ou t th e s y count a feeling of to hear it even at periods h when the p ren ublic exigencies imperatively demanded its imposition. Lord STANLEY wished to offer a few words in explanatien. The Right Hon. Gentleman had commented upon an expres sion of his, with regard to which he should be sorry to be mis understood. In alluding to the affairs of A ffghanistan, he hut stated that the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Macaulay) had treated much too lightly the impOrtanee of that national disaster. He thought that to look at the mater merely in a financial point of view. would be to Cott eider it in a very narrow and imperfect light. 119 thought even in a financial point of view, the Right Hon. Gentleman had very much underrated the disaster; but cer tainly if he had said anything which attributed to the Right Hon. Gentleman's personal indifference to the loss of life which had occurred, he had no intention of imputing to hiss anything of the kind. If he had not chosen Ins words . very nicely be hod not the least intention of imputing to him a feeling of indifference.—( Hear, be_ar ) Y tin t a h n a c t ia he l point of not have felt indifference in any o Mr. MACAULAY said he neirei the h view. What he had said was a financial point of view the re that he could not see what in cent disasters had to do with the other h i n y n 7 to address the House amidst loud Lord F. EGERTON rose __ divide. Mr. of" Divide, divide, present question.—( Hear, BROTHERTON moved the adjournment of the de Mr. bate. Mr. 13LEWITT seconded the motion. Lord F. hear.) EGERTON was proceeding to address the lime when