The Sun. — London, England, 1849-02-17 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 16. Their Lordships assembled at Five o'clock. TURNPIKE TRUSTS. . The Marquis of SA iSßUßinaevd for certain re turns relating to turnpike trusts. The Earl of GRANVILLE • was not • aware of the existence of any objection to the production of these re ' turns, but ho could hava wished that the Noble Marquis had'given notice of his intention to move for them. The Earl of ST. GERMANS thoug ht the Govern .' went had done wrong in including as they had done in the same Bill the very different subjects of highways and turnpike trusts: • The motion was then P agreed to. APERS. _ _ Earl GREY laid on the table certain papers relating to the subject of tran9portation. • The Marquis of LANSDOWNIi laid on the table certain papers by cote nand of her Majesty. 'Their Lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 16. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The following Bills were read a second time and .ordered to be committed:— ,Bradford Waterworks. Brierly Hill District Gaslight Company (for incor porating and giving all proper Powers to the said Company). Charing-cross Bridge (Amendments of Acts; Powers to alter authorised Approaches, &c.) East Anglian Railways (Ely and Huntingdon Railway ' Extension of Time). Edinburgh and, Glasgow Railway, and Edinburgh and Glasgow Union Canal (Amalgamation or Sale or Lease of the Union Canal to the Railway Company). reltwePl.Second District Drainage. 61.6 at Yarmouth Haven Bridge and Navigation Ina- provenient. Landon Hospital Incorporation. outh-Eastern Railway (Removal of Restriction against opening the Tunbridge Wells and Hastings, and Ashtord and Hasting Lines, Grant of compulsory Powers for purchase of Lands, Steam-boats). Taunton Town and Market Improveipent. Whitehaven Waterworks. NATIONAL EXPENDITURE. Lord JOHN HAY presented a petition from Windsor praying for a reduction of the national expenditure. POOR-LAW. Lord JOCELYN presented a petition from the guar dians of King's Lynn praying for some alteration in the , Poor Removal Act. POOR-LAW (IRELAND). ! Mr. J. O'CONNELL presented a petition from Balla, in the county of Mayo, against the Irish poor-law. The Hon. Member presented a similar petition from the cor poration of Limerick. PORT OF LIMERICK. The Ho.m. MExBER also presented a petition from the same corporation, praying that the port of Limerick might be selected for the departure of the American mail-packets, in case a western port in Ireland should be fixed upon for that purpose. NATIONAL DISPUTES. Sir J. PAKINGTON presented a petition praying that all national disputes might be settled by arbitration instead of by an appeal to war. Mr. BAINES presented a petition from Hull in favour of international arbitration. IRISH POOR-LAW. _ Colonel DUNNE presented a petition from a . .geneal meeting of poor-law guardians in Ireland, praying for an alteration in the order of rating, and for other alterations in the Irish poor•law. POOR-LAW. The-Marquis of GRANBY presented a petition from the guardians of a poor-law board, complaining of the increase of pauperism. Lord DUDLEY STUART presented a petition from Ilfarylebone, in favour of some alteration in the poor law. PUBLIC LIBRARIES. Mr. EWART postponed his motion with respect to public libraries to. the 3d of March. VOTE BY BALLOT. - ~ Mr. CRAVEN BERKELEY gave notice that on an early day he would ask for leave to bring in a Bill to repeal certain Acts, or portions of Acts, relating to the mode of raking votes for the election of the Members of Parliament, and to enable electors to give their votes by way of ballot. CHURCH REVENUE (IRELAND). Mr. J. O'CONNELL gave notice that on the Ist of Marsh next he would move for a Committee of the whole House to inquire into the Church revenue of Ireland. SAVINGS BANKS (IRELAND). " 'Mr. REYNOLDS gave notice that, on the Ist of March next, he would move the appointment of a Select Committee, to inquire into the circumstances connected , with the insolvency of savings banks in Dublin. MORTALITY AMONG THE SOLDIERS IN BARBADOES. Lord DRUMLANRIG intimated that he intended to postpone his question with respect to the mortality among the 66th and 67th Regiments stationed in Bar badpes until a future day. THE NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT. Mr. OSBORNE wished to put a question to the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Lancaster (Mr. Greene) • e TePh respect to the New Houses of Parliament. A circular- had been sent round to the Members of the House, by the direction of the Cora miesioners, soliciting Honourable Members to offer any suggestions they might think proper with respect to the fittings and arrangements of the new House of Commons. He wished to ask whether these arrangements would be allowed to interfere with Mr. Barry's original plan, and if so, who was to be responsible for the expense? Secondly, Whether the dispute between Dr. Reid and Mr. Parry, which had now lasted four years—(Laugh ter)—had been finally adjusted by the Commissioners ? Thirdly ; Whether the Commissioners had drawn up any report in which information was given as to the ultimate expense, and as to the period when the works would be completed. Mr. GREENE replied that the Commissioners had ' . deemed it expedient to send round the circular referred to, as they were anxious to receive suggestions as to the final arrangements of the House, with a view to the con venience of the Members, and the facilitating of public business. The arrangements upon these matters were not such as would interfere with the plans of the architect, nor with the estimated expense of construction. Every one must be aware that many secondary matters trifling in themselves, yet important to Hon. Members attending to discharge their public duties, were required to be arranged in consonance with their views 4 but which in themselves involved no great expense. The dispute between Dr. Reid and Mr. Barry had been arranged by the Commissioners in a satisfactory:manner —namely, that Dr. Reid should have the full arrangement of the ventilation of the House of Commons, and that his services should be confined to the House of Commons alone--the Commissioners allowing him all suitable opportunities that he might require for the outlet of foul and-•- the admission , of pure air.—(Hear, bear.) The Commissioners bad not prepared any re port of the nature referred - to by the Hon. Member; but, in obedience to the wishes of the House, a return had been prepared of the present and future expenses. An official return with respect to the general expenses rested with the Chancellor of the Ex chequer. ' Mr. HUME suggested that a plan should be prepared, 'showing the alterations that have been already made in . the approaches to the new Houses of Parliament, and what is intended to be done. Without some such plan, any person would find himself unable to judge what was intended to be done.—(Hear.) He found places that were • doers once now shut up, and places that . were windows once now turned into doors—(Laughter)- —but how many more of those changes were to take place, or what was to be done, the Members had no means of judging without some such plan as he had suggested. M. GREENE replied that there were plans showing the , t, tteretious in Mr. Barry's office, and that gentle neap, he was sure, would afford every facility to any of the I..fernbere in explaining those plans, and the altera• lions which had taken place,pa were in contemplation. Mr. HUM would leke ees know who authorised the ' experts:3 now going eu in, the, 4uilding, up and pulling clown ,tyre, ,or re, was reepeosible foe it?—(H ear .) Mr. GREENE was net aware .p rec i ae l y to w h at the a ' lon. Mk rnb •r refeered. With ret ereuce to the expe n se 1 j of the alaretions in tile appeueches,antatimate had been ' ?Teetered of the additional expense of those alterations. The whole of those estimates brio been submitted for • approva l to, the Treasury, and they had rec e i ve d t h e pp J lof hat department. ' . 41- - r' "WOODS AND FORESTS. . , L or d DUNCAN begged leave to ask the Noble : . Lord at the bead of the o vernment to whom the Meal , beranfahe House were to put quest%ivonsdrelatnindgiiotor had m es a t t- . ieracouneeted ssi:h the office of oo s s, • sieee tae Earl of Carlisle the Chief Commiassioner, been elevated to the House of Lords? The answer of Lord JOHN RU SSELL was wholly i Inaudible n the gallery. • MARTIAL LAW IN CEYLON. : Mr. BAILLIE begged to ask a q uestion of the Under - Secretary of State for the Colonies. He (Mr. Baillie) found, on referring to the papers that had been recently published relating to the colony of Ceylon, that a dispatch was received at the Colonial-office on the 31st Oct., 1848, communicating the important fact that executions under ' martial law had taken place in the island, and he also . fotiud in reference to those papers that we had received, no " dispatch had been since obtained from Lord Torrington. . ' He wished to ask whether any dispatch of a later date than Oct. 24, either disapproving or approving of executions . under martial law at Ceylon, had been forwarded by e , Earl Grey to the Governor of the island ? And it so, . whether there would be any objection to lay them on the table of the House, previous to any discussion upon the subject? . Mr. HAWES said the last dispatch that had been re ceived from Lord Torrington was dated the 24th October last, and Lord Grey; by a dispatch, had previously ap proved r _ , of the measures that had been taken to suppress the rebellion. : ' Mr. BAILLIE said, the Right Hon. Gentlemen (Mr. H a wes) stated, that previous to the dispatch, the ap - a" ilet3val of Lord Grey had been sent, but he did not state whether any approval had been sent after the dispatch. Mr. HAWES replied that a general dispatch had been sent approving of the policy of Lord Torrington, 81 , it. iid w e vcOsspatch had been sent out approving of • 4...t4i9tt ftael, martial law. axec EMIGRATION. fk. - . , m . -. :461 . A id be had been informed that great ( p i-?.,' t<s, - ; ' . .fr orts r * J il t. fegiiiemade at the present moment to force i se t . i l i doatm e rr ier4 r otee agricultural districts, and especially , 3 , -*rope ee - fre ee erite e blea e . He was surprised to hear \ a ...7 '* --- tteiseeewme4 - /**./ ii, and especially one that a gen. JV : 9 `" l "lAD had -teen sent down to that county to " . " -- ; ° " w ierrinhior avo oto the colonies at such rates • . voy ago THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 17, that the expenses of shipment, which were intended for five hundred emigrants, would be made to serve for a thousand. He was the more surprised at this, as he was credibly informed that there were arplications for 150 passages daily, and that fifty ships had already been dispatched • with emigrants daring the present year. It the case ,A as as he had been informed, he feared that it would tend greatly to discourage the accumulation of fund, voluntarily forming for the purpose of emigration to of; r countries. He wished, therefore, to ingqire whether a gentleman had been sent down to Dorsetshire for the purpose which he had stated? RIVER PLATE. Mr. EWART asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether there was any prospect of an adjustment of the difference existing between the Republics on the River Plate, and whether there would be any objection to lay before the House any correspondence which may have passed upon the subject? Lord PALMERSTON was understood to say that at the present moment it would be injurious to the public interests if the papers on this subject were laid before the House. SIR H. BULWER AND THE COURT OF SPAIN. Mr. BANKES begged to ask the Hon. Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, now that it was stated that Sir H. Bulwer had been appointed the accredited ambassador to another Court, whether the matters of difference be tween the English Court and the Court of Spain were adjusted, or were in the course of adjustment? Lord PALMERSTON replied that the negotiations on that subject were still going on. HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION ACT (IRE LAND). Mr. WALPOLE said the motion for the third read- Mr. HAWES said that he bad not received any no tice of the question, and was therefore not prepared to give an answer, but would do so at some future day. SITTING ON AS li-WEDNESD AY.—BRIBERY ing of the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act for Ireland was expected to take place on Monday next. As other important business was likely to come on on that day, he should be glad if the Noble Lord at the head of the Government could say whether the third reading of that measure was likely to take place on that day in preference to the other business. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he hoped there would be time to get through the other business of the day; nevertheless the motion on the Habeas Corpus Suspen sion Act would take precedence. THE ESTIMATES. Mr. HUME said he had put a question on this sub ject the other night, and the answer which he got was neither courteous nor explanatory.—(Laughter.) They had had estimates for voting 15,000,000/. of the public money at least ; and he begged to ask her Majesty's Government whether they were prepared, be fore the call of the House, to submit a statement—call it a budget or whatever they pleased—by which the House would be informed of the accurate amount of the expenditure of the Government and the means by which those expenses were to be defrayed. At the end of the last session they had had to have recourse to loans, which was much to be deplored and condemned; and therefore he begged to ask the Chan cellor of the Exchequer whether it was his intention to submit to the House a statement of Ways and Means as well as the amount of expenditure which the Go vernment contemplated this session. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said (as we understood) that the usual course would be followed. Mr. DISRAELI said he had seen a statement in the papers, that in consequence of the state of the country it was necessary to have a great increase of taxation. He certainly trusted that the usual course would not be followed on the present occasion. Mr. HUME was sorry to say that if this system was persevered in, he should be compelled to take a course which he feared would be considered very troublesome by the friends around him, but until he was rightly in formed as to the means of meeting these expenses, not a sixpence would he vote towards either of the ser vices. •He would be no party to any• such thriftless measure as this was, to spend the money first, and then look out for where it was to come from. As it was chiefly through the assistance of the country gentlemen that this expenditure was incurred by her Majesty's Ministers last year, he did appeal to them on the present occasion, and entreat them to join him now in an attempt to resist such an imposition on the country. Mr. VERNON SMITH said that his Honourable Friend the Member for Montrose had asked two ques tions, one of which was as to whether it was the inten tion of his Right Honourable Friend the Chan cellor of the Exchequer to lay the estimates on the table of the House, with such statements as would enable Hon. Members to judge of the diffe rence made through the recommendation of the Com mittee last year. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that that was not the question. What his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose wished to know was, what means the Government had in possession, or whence they intended to derive them, for meeting the expendi ture, and how far the estimates differed from those pre pared last year. In reply, he might say that all the matters to which the Hon. Member referred had been duly considered. He proposed to lay the estimates on the table of the House, and take the discussion on the second reading. Mr. WARD said all the decisions of the Committee had been duly considered, and such as had met with the sanction of the Board to which he was attached had been introduced into the estimates. Lord J. RUSSELL said that it was necessary to adopt a certain course in preparing the estimates; but every proceeding which had been recommended by the Com mittee of last year had been adopted. HABEAS CORPUS (IRELAND) SUSPENSION BILL. On the queition for the consideration of the report en this Bill, Mr. J. O'CONNELL proposed the adding of a clause securing the right of petition in reference to the repealing of Acts ; and, in doing so, he again took occasion to denounce the Government and those Members who supported them for introducing this mea sure to curtail the liberties of the Irish people. He insisted that no case had been made out for passing this Bill; but, at all events, if they must suspend the constitution in Ireland, let them take care to secure to the peaceful portion of the community the right of meeting to discuss their grievances. The Right Hon. Baronet who introduced the Bill had been ashamed to admit that it was isted—(Laughter)—but he hoped those who now enjoyed that honour would act in a far different manner. For his own part, he should give it every opposition which the forms of the House permitted. Mr. REYNOLDS having o❑ a recent occasion spoken of the manner in which the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland acted, with great pain, felt it his duty to a'k her Ma jesty's Government whether those prisoners now in cus tody in Kilmainham gaol, as noticed by his Honourable Friend the Member for Westmeath, were treated with the severity to which public attention had been called? He understood they were deprived of all opportunities of seeing the public newspapers, and otherwise punished with unnecessary severity; but, possibly, as that prison was under the control of a board of superintendence, the fault rested with them. Sir GEORGE GREY replied that whatever culpa bility attached to the proceeding the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland was ready to take his due share of it-4-inas much as he approved of the step which had been .taken under the peculiar circumstances of the case. The fact was, that six of them were removed from the criminal to the debtor_side of the prison, and indulgences allowed them which they had not before enjoyed ; - but they' then availed themselves of the facilities afforded to commu nicate with the public papers, to write articles and letters of a highly objectionable character. When remon strated with they refused to desist from the practice, and the consequence was that their removal again to the criminal side of the prison became a matter of necessity. Mr. F. O'CONNOR asked was it a fact that a Mr. Meany, one of those confined, had, for writing a letter to the Freeman's Journal, on the 9th of December last, been told by Mr. Shaw, the High Sheriff of the county of Dublin, that if he did so again he should remove to the criminal side; and that on the 31st of January, when he had written another communication, the High Sheriff again came and asked him why he did so ; to which Meany replied that as long as he had a griev a of, he should not be deterred from exposingucto c who injured i ai rjured him? It then appeared that the High Sheriff called for a p art y o f p o li ce , an d h a d hi m k na waybj force.—(L ou d cr i es o f " Spokeen;lemen might cry out " Spoke spoke.") Honourable , spoke," but ae if they were in that unfortunate i n divid ua l' s p os iti on t they would not say so. When the Right Honourable Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Depart ment admitted these things were done with the concur rence of the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, it was time that some inquiry should be made into the matter. — (Loud cries of "Spoke, spoke.") If the House granted him a Committee of Inquiry, he would undertake to prove what he bad stated. Five others were removed at the same time against whom no charge whatever was brought. Sir GEORGE GREY had only again to state,, that although he had not heard before of the particular cir cumstance! alluded to by the Hon. Member for Notting ham, he would again repeat, that they were removed from one side of the prison to another, and sent back again, in consequence of what he had already inform, d the House. With regard to a police force being used, that became necessary in consequence of the individual alluded to avowing his intention of using force if any at tempt were made to remove him. Mr. HUME asked the Right lion. Gentleman why it was that certain convicted parties in this country were denied all access to the papers, and treated in other re spects with a severity very unusual in this country? Sir GEORGE GREY replied, that though he was aware of what the Hon. Member alluded to, yet the Government had no power whatever to interfere. The Act of Parliament placed the discretion in the judges, and it was to them the application should be made. Mr. ANSTEY said his opposition was not at all abated, but as they had already decided the question, he hoped the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Limerick would not ask them to go to a division. He believed that the Hon. Gentleman had made various misstatements in his very lcng speech. For example, he said that the letters std proclamations of the Lord-Lieutenant would, littler the Bill, have all the force of the law, but in tiat he was grossly mistaken. The Act of Parliament gave no such power; it authorised him to arrest persons suspected of treason, and confine them to any one of her Majesty's gaols as long as it pleased him. The effect of the Hon. Gentleman's amendment would be to declare that a constituent assembly, met for the purpose of petitioning, would be high treason, and as he could not agree that such a precedent should be set, which was calculated to affect seriously the liberties of the people, he should feel bound to vote in favour of her Majesty's Government, if the measure were pressed to a division. Mr. E. B. ROCHE observed that at last a voice was heard in that House in defence of the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. English Members had spoken against it; Scotch Members had spoken against it; but a voice was raised from Youghal in its defence. They had now declared war against the Irish people; but he had no hesitation in saying that they would in the end be discomfited. Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL had heard of cottage law, and certainly, to say as the Hon. Member for Youghal had said, that that Bill would not give despotic powers to the Lord-Lieutenant, was the most absurd thing he ever heard of. Mr. ANSTEY, amid loud cries of " Spoke, spoke," denied he had ever said so. What he said was, that it gave him power to arrest persons for treasonable practices. The House then dived. The numbers were— ... 12 ... 94 For the amendment ... Against it ... Majority ... —B2 The report was received, and the Bill was ordered to be read a third time. RELIEF OF DISTRESS (IRELAND) BILL. intended to prevent the Irish people from en- On the bringing up of the report on the resolution deavouring to procure the repeal of the Act adopted in Committee of the whole House, appropriating of Union. When a Minister was not ashamed to a sum of 50,0001. for the relief of Irish distress, own such an object there was no hope for the people Mr. P. SCROPE moved the amendment of which he over whom he proposed to tyrannise; but in this instance had given notice, to the effect, that the sum to be voted the Right Hon. Baronet was too honest to avow the real for that purpose be a loan, and not a grant. Future intention of the Ministry in seeking this unconstitu- grants must be applied for, otherwise the House would tional Bill ; and he therefore had some hope the cries of be charged with allowing the people to die of starve the people of Ireland for relief from oppression would tion. It was, therefore, essential that a sound principle not be disregarded. The purport of the clause proposed should be at once adopted. The land in Ireland, if was, that whereas doubts were entertained how far the properly cultivated, was quite able to support the able- Act of last session applied to the holding of public meet- bodied population, and he did not see what right the ings, " that it should be declared that nothing in the 11th landowners and ratepayers of Connaught had to quarter and 12th Victoria should apply to the holding of legal their poor upon other districts. The proper course to meetings in Ireland," he was astonished that this pursue was to make the fee-simple of the land liable for measure should have been brought forward at all upon these rates. The present system rendered the cultiva such flimsy pretences as had been adduced in support of tion of the land impossible, for as soon as it was culti this Bill. It was most unjust to deliver up the liberties vated the produce was seized for arrears of rate. Sup of Ireland to the despotic power of a few individuals. posing an estate had arrears of rate owing, to the Its effect would be to place despotic power in the hands amount of 1,000/, that would be equivalent to a sen • of the Lord. Lieutenant and the Secretary of the Home fence of perpetual barrenness, inasmuch as no person Department, under whose control he acted. He con- would take the land subject to such a burden. There tended that the people had a right to conduct a legal and were many estates in this condition. The lands were peaceable agitation for the repeal of an obnoxious Act of in consequence uncultivated and thrown waste. What Parliament, which was struck at in the letter of the Lord- excuse had they for paying these debts of bankrupt Lieutenant. It was said indeed that the Government landlords out of the Consolidated Fund? These men had not interfered with the meetings of the Repeal benefited by the sums advanced, and by enabling them Association. They could not take credit for that as dis- to maintain their present position, they were nothing playing moderation, because the sittings of that better than dogs iu the manger. It was only by gra assembly had been suspended before the passing of the dually ridding the country of these ruined proprietors of Habeas Corpus Act. In 1817 the Marquis of Lans- the soil in the west of Ireland that any good could be downe opposed the suspension of the Habeas Corpus done. What he asked for the British public and rate Act, lest it might be brought into a precedent of evil payers was, that defaultin g l an d s s h ou ld b e so ld to pay imitation in future times. He should like, when he came off the arrears ot rates due. To that they must come at forward to support this measure, that some one should last; and until they did so every step they took would ask him why be had changed his mind, and what was only increase the prevalent destitution and misery in the difference of circumstances which i n fluenced this Ireland. — (He ar, hear.) He should then say a few change of opinion. He thought they ought to allow the words on the second resolution, which was to the effect addition of this clause to the Bill, to show, at least, that that the money should be expended so far as was possible they were not disposed to shackle the right of the people upon productive labour of the able-bodied peon There to petition against th e re p ea l o f an A c t o f P ar li amen t. were 21 unions in a state of insolvency. He would take He appealed to the representatives of Great Britain, be- Ballina and Westport as specimens. They had 9,000 able cause it would not effect what it was proposed to accom- bodied poor and a population of 38,000 men. These plish. It was said it wou ld b e t h e means o f i ntro d uc i ng 9,000 paupers, in two unions alone, they w e r e called upon capital into Ireland, b u t h e wou ld te ll t h em i t wou ld t o support, and he would a s k w h et h er they should not b e have a contrary effect, and c ause cap i ta l to l eave t h at em ployed in productive l a b our ? T he rel i ef wor k s l ast country. Neither would it put down agitation, which summer and the workshops in Paris would be thrown in existed only through the grievances it suffered, which his teeth ; but they were failures simply because the was now prostrate, and which this Bill would revive, paupers were employed in unproductive labour. When They bad made their election. They determined to rule employed in useless works men would naturally be list- Ireland by force, and they must pay for their own course. less and idle. But experience proved that, when pro- It was not the policy of former Whigs the present Govern.. perly guided, neither in moral feeling nor industry were meat were pursuing, but that of Nicholas, the despot of Irishmen deficient.—(Hear, hear.) Men revolted from Russia, who fomented an insurrection in Poland in 1830, employment on penal and useless works. Irishmen did in order to crush and utterly destroy the liberties of not want acuteness, and had, as well as Englishmen, a the people of that country. A member of that Ministry keen perception of what was intended as sham work was allowed to retain his situation, although he had from real work. As a proof that it was only necessary during the recess been writing articles in his newspaper that the works should be 'really useful and productive advocating the utter and permanent extinction of the works, he found that it was stated in another place last berties of Ireland. That individual was the Secretary night, by the N oble Lord the Secre ta r y f or t h e Colo of the Board of Control (Mr. Wilson), and proprietor of nies, that the convicts employed on the garrison the Economist newspaper, and y et, though receiving the works at Gibra ltar had earned 381. a head per an pay of his situation, he was allowed to continue his dis- num each, while the cost of their maintenance was not graceful course without check or contradiction. The half that amount. He asked then, why they c o u ld not Hon. Member concluded by moving the addition of the provide profitable em p lo y ment for their pau p ers as well clause to the Bill. as their convicts ?—(Hear.) Let them adopt th e rat i on . Mr. O'FLAIIERTY seconded the motion. He did system in the one case as well as the other, instead of not subscribe to all the violent expressions used by the shutting up the men in workhouses, and keeping them Hon. Member who had just spoken, yet he felt a grievous and their families in idleness.—(Hear.) Even if it cost a t the expiration of that time, injustice would be inflicted on Ireland by the passing of twice as much to keep them at work for a year or two, this Bill. As an instance, he would mention that, when it would be the cheapest in the end. They would be example of the the town which he had the honour to represent (G dway) sure to reap a return was proclaimed last summer, it so happened that the whereas by the present mode the whole was thrown himself as inte intended by the sweat w P e r a o t v o i - f judges of assize were in town, and, in charging the grand away. They oaght to imitate the ed jury, of which ho (Mr. O'Flaherty) was foreman, the Quakers in Mayo, who had_ . empl w oy the people profit- Learned Judge told them that the district was perfectly ably on 500 acres of l ih an a d i quiet and peaceable .—( Hear.) He should give the dente that man should . d d consi ere that in these measure every opposition in his power, though he felt his brow, and when they that opposition would bo fruitless. twenty-one unions there were not less than 3,000,000 On the motion being put, maintain acres of waste but cultivable land, which would form Sir GEORGE GREY said, the question was, whether an ample field for the labour of the unem the clause proposed by th e H o n. Member for Limerick ployed, he would ask, in the name o f corn should be added to the Bill, an d h e did not, therefore, mon sense, why th es e people should not be set to work? think it necessary to follow the Hon. Gentleman through These wastes were as capable of growing grain crops -all the statements he had mad e . He should not detain and supporting stock as t he wolds of Lincolnshir e , or, the House, but merely remind IlOn. Meinbers that, as on of other parts of England which were formerly waste, two form er o ccas i ons they h a d rejected a similar amen d ' but now converted into fertile land. Then again another ment, and that as he was not aware of any new reasons point might be urged, na mely, the moral effect of setting being now given for its adoption, he felt certain the mo - the people to work in the manner he p ro p osed. How tion would be nega ti ve d. could they ever expect any material improvement in the Mr. H. GRATTAN should again record his protest habits of the Irish people u nless they accustomed them to against the measure. But he saw no use in roloning continuous labour ? In that light alone the principle of the discussion, the more so as it was al readdiscussedemployment was invaluable, and constituted a rea y so reproductive often. All he could say to his countrymen was, that he the only sound and lasting foundation for future improve hoped they would bear their sufferings with that philos meta. He would not further detain the House, but, sophy which injured innocence was always sure to corn- thanking it for the attention with which it heard him, wand. He hoped, however, that those individuals who would conclude by moving the amendment. would be entitled to their liberty in March next might be Sir J. WALSH said the Hon. Member seemed on set at liberty ; he believed eighteen of those who were this question to be totally impervious to the teaching of now immured in prison, who had not been brought to experience.—(A laugh.) The Hon. Member had for trial; or, indeed, against whom no specific charge was many years called for an efficient poor-law for Ireland; adduced, and who were treated with a severity which and now when, mainly owing to his perseverence, an ought to be discontinued. efficient poor-law had been enacted, which had totally Mr. F. O'CONNOR believed, with the Right Hon. beggared a large portion of the country, and Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Depart- was likely in future to beggar more, the Honourable ()sent, that the question then before the House was the Member persisted in urging other theoretical notions with same as that already discussed, and he should not, that obstinacy which characterised deluded enthusiasts, therefore, detain them by any lengthened observ:ttiena. in the hope of carrying out some other part of their wild He was not, perhaps, justified in saying to the Iri • s sti schemes.—(gear, hear.) With one part of the Hon. Members who had now spoken in that House that they Member's speech he could concur. The Hon. Member had not acted as they ought to have done in Opposin g had i ,:caied, with considerable effect, a rate in aid. H e that measure, but in 1833 and 1834, when he repro - (Sir J.l'Ve-t,, " the Hon. Member l sh) must say t hat he was q uite sur p rised a t rented an Irish county, a greater set of slaves never ex the clearne Bll fit 's argument on this . 6 AT ELECTIONS BILL. Sir JOHN PAKINGTON said that the second read ing of the Bribery at Elections Bill stood for Wednes day next, the 21st. Now, that day happened to be Ash- Wednesday, and as it was the custom of the House to adjourn over Ash-Wednesday, he wished to ask the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) whether it was his intention to adjourn the House over Wednesday next, or to have the usual morning sitting? Lord J. RUSSELL was anxious, for the sake of the public business, to continue the morning sittings, and he should therefore propose on Monday that the House ad journ at its rising on Tuesday till two o'clock on Wed nesday, in order to give such Hon. Gentlemen as chose the opportunity of attending Divine service. WAR IN THE PUNJAUB. Mr. G. THOMPSON wished to ask the Noble Lord at the head of the Government whether he intended to lay the papers connected with the war in the Punjaub, in April last, on the table of the House? Lord J. RUSSELL said that the papers were not yet prepared, but as soon as they were ready they should be presented. NAVIGATION-LAWS: Mr. LABOUCHERE said that he intended to move the second reading of the Bill for the amendment of the navigation-laws; but having received an intima• tion from the Hon. Member for Stamford (Mr. Harries) that such a proceeding would be inconvenient to him, he intended to postpone the second reading until Monday, March 5. Mr. RICARDO wondered why there 'should be any such unnecessary delay. He thought that if postponed to this day week it would be quite long enough. Mr. HERRIES trusted that the Noble Lord would not be impelled by any pressure from behind to proceed in a' way which must be productive of great inconve nience. If from no other inducement, surely respect for the House would be sufficient. Lord J. RUSSELL said that as the prolongation was only from Friday to Monday, no unnecessary delay could be imputed. Mr. WA WN wished to ask the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether he was prepared to state what concessions Government were prepared to make in the shape of a reduction of taxation. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was not prepared to state now what reductions would be made, but they would be developed in the course of the discussions on the estimates. Mr. HUME thought the Right Hon. Gentleman ought to answer the question then. Did Government mean to take the duty off timber, because if they did not, this measure on the navigation laws would give the foreigner an advantage over the British shipbuilder, which would be a most unjust proceeding. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought it best to defer disclosing the nature of the reductions. The Bill was then ordered to be read a second time on Monday, the sth March. ARMY ESTIMATES. Mr. FOX MAULE brought up the army estimates, which were ordered to be printed. NAVY ESTIMATES. Mr. WARD brought up the navy estimates, which were ordered to be printed. Mr. HUME wished to know, in reference to these estimates, whether Government would lay upon the table at an early period, and before the discussion upon the estimates, an account of the difference between these estimates and those of last year, so that the House might see what reductions had been made, in accordance with the recommendation of the Committee which sat last year. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was surprised at such a question coming from the Hon. Gentleman, who surely must be aware that the esti mates were frequently altered before they were passed. CHANNEL ISLANDS. Mr. EWART wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentle man the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it was his intention to introduce any measure this session for car rying out the recommendations of the Commissioners who had reported on the state of the criminal law in the Channel Islands. Sir G. GREY said the matter was now under his consideration, and he hoped shortly to be able to intro duce a Bill upon it. COLLIERY EXPLOSION. Mr. CAYLEY wished to put a question to the Right Hon. Baronet the Home Secretary relative to a painful occurrence which had recently taken place in the county which he had the honour to represent. It must be in the knowledge of the Right Honourable Baronet that an explosion bad taken place at one of the Derbyshire collieries which had resulted in the loss of many lives. Similar accidents had fre quently happened before at the same place, and it was the opinion of the coroner and jury who had sat upon the bodies of the deceased sufferers, that they were caused, and caused alone, by unskilful and defective ventilation. The question he wished to put to the Right Hon. Baronet was this—whether he had ret..-ivcd a report of the in• • quest upon the unfortunate • persons that had been killed; whether he was prepared to recommend to the House any mode for the regulation and inspection of mines, and whether he could suggest any other course by which a repetition of such a fearful oc currence might be avoided ? _ . Sir G. GREY said he had received a communication from the clerk of the magistrates in the district im mediately after the accident happened, accompanied by a suggestion, that it was desirable that some gentleman should be sent by the Government to attend the ad journed inquest. He (Sir George Grey) communicated immediately to the coroner, and told him that Mr. Horner Smith and Mr. Tremenhere would be sent down to inspect the pit, in order that they might give evidence at the inquest with respect to the cause of the accident. He had received a local newspaper containing a report of the proceedings at the adjourned inquest, the evi dence given by those two gentlemen, the summing up of the coroner, and the verdict of the jury, which was "acci dental death," accompanied by a recommendation that pits and mines should be placed under the inspection of responsible officers appointed by the Government. That however, was not the first time that the subject had been brought under the attention of the Government. A Bill had been submitted to the House by the Hon. Member for Finsbury, but the House declined to entertain it, on the ground that the provisions were too complicated. It was extremely difficult to secure the proper inspection of mines in order to keep them in a proper and fit state for working. He had, however, placed Mr. Tremen here, who was an inspector under the Act relating to the employment of children in mines, in communication with various persons largely interested in mining opera tions in this country, and iu communication with large establishments on the continent, and that gentleman had furnished him with an interesting report, which would be laid before the House in a few days. The regula tions which it recommended were too strict and minute to lead him to hope that they could be adopted in this country, but at the same time he thought it would he desirable that the Government should have power to in spect mines where the safety of the persons working in them was endangered, and to compel owners to udopt some measures for their protection. The subject was still under the consideration of the Government, but the difficulty was to provide an efficient system of superin tendence without involving a large amount of expen diture. THE " COUNT OUT " LAST NIGHT.-COM MITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS. Sir J OHN WALSH referred to the " count out" last night. He said he wished to know whether the course adopted by an Hon. Member last night in counting out the House was not a most unusual one.—(A laugh.) It was unnecessary for him to remind the House, that in the past disputes had taken place, and that long dis putes had occurred thereon, as to whether forty Members had been present or not when a House had been counted out. It was equally well known, that when debates that were not of much public interest were before the House, or were expected, that Hon. Members had exercised the privilege which they possessed, and moved that the House be counted. He submitted to those who were acquainted with the forms of the House, that it was most unusual for an Hon. Member to move that a House be counted after one had been made, and during the time of private business. If any Hon. Members thought that by obtaining the counting out of the House that he thereby suppressed the discussion on some matter, he assured them that they were much mistaken—(Hear, hear)—as such dis cussions would press themselves before the attention of the House on thousands of inconvenient occasions. Mr. HUME had intended to have offered some ob servations on the subject. He had looked carefully through the orders of the House, and was convinced that any alteration of them might be productive of evil instead of good.—(Hear, hear.) He would suggest that whenever Hon. Members moved that the House be counted that his proposition should be seconded. Major BLACKALL said he was prepared to take a part in the discussion which was likely to have come on last night with respect to the passing of auxiliary measures for Ireland ; but he confessed after the pro longed discussion of Irish matters since the commence.. ment of the session, that he expected a disinclination to listen to them. He denied that there was any truth in the statement that influence had been used with him to thwart a discussion upon these matters.—(Hear.) On the con trary, he was most anxious to discuss them.—(H ea r.) Lord DUNCAN relented to a " count out" last ses sion before five o'clock, when the Alien Bill was ex pected on. The SPEAKER could only say that whenever an Hon. Member took notice that there were not forty Members present, it was his duty to count the House. —(Hear, hear.) It was not, hoa ever, usual for Hon. Members to make such a motion before the private busi ness had beeu transacted.—(Hear, hear.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL merely wished to observe hat many of the Ministers frequently came to the House at four o'clock in order to make up the requisite num ter, and returned to their offices whilst the private business of the House was being transacted. After some observations from Mr. J. O'CONNELL, the third reading of this Bill was postponed till Monday. COPYHOLD TENURE. In answer to a question, Sir G. GREY said it was not the intention of the Government to revive the Bill of last session, on the subject of copyhold tenure. . . . . . point; and it only showed what clear views he could express when necessary for his own purpose. lie was not aware whether the subject was before the House or not, but he believed it had attracted a considerable amount of attention elsewhere. It was reported, whe ther truly or not, he was not aware, that the door of the Cabinet was lately a little ajar, and that hearing a knock, the Premier had asked, in the words of the nigger melody, " Who's that knocking at the door?" and in reply, the head and shoulders of the Right Honourable Baronet the Member for Ripon had made their appearance. But whether it was that the Right Honourable Baronet did not like the company he found himself in, or to what other cause it was owing he could not tell, but he drew back saying, " I beg your pardon, I will call another 'day." He did not pre tend to speak with certainty upon the subject, but he believed the Right Hon. Baronet had been influenced in no slight degree by the understood opinions of the Cabinet on this question of a rate in aid. There were many general reasons why a rate in aid would in prin ciple always act viciously, and in the present state of Ireland such a rate would be peculiarly objectionable. If they taxed the wealthy and thriving people of Belfast, for instance, for the support of the poor in the southern and Western part of the country, they would be entitled at once to say you have given up the principle of local taxation—we are part of a great united empire, and we claim that this shall be made an imperial question, and receive imperial assistance. With respect to the other views of the Hon. Member for Stroud, they involved, in fact, the principles of M. Proudhon, and he was aston ished they should have been addressed to a British assembly. First of all he proposed to drag the land lords of Ireland to the ground by a weight of taxation they were not able to bear, and then, having beggared them, he said the land would then be liberated, and fall into the hands of other proprietors, who would be able to give employment to the people, and cultivation thus restored. He would have asked the Hon. Member, if he had not retired from the House, how the land would be benefited by this process, or the ruin of the present landlords. The destitution which weighed them down would still exist, and press equally upon new pro prietors. He could not see how they were to be bene fited by succeeding to an inheritance of burdens which had ruined their predecessors. In the next place the Hon. Member brought forward that favourite word 'with Irish politicians, " the public interest." This was again merely a repetition of the views of M. Proudhon—it was merely saying, le propriete est un vol. It meant to destroy the rights of private property after the manner of the Louis Blanc school; but it the Hon. Member would refer to the example of Williams-town, he would see that the plan he proposed had been tried upon a limited scale, and had been attended with the failure which was the in evitable fate of all such wild and mischievous schemes. Passing however from the theories of the Hon. Member for Stroud, he would state that his great and leading objection to the proposed grant was that it did not embody the principle included in the resolution which the Gallant Major behind him intended to propose last night, and which was well worthy the attention of the House. That resolution affirmed that remunerative employment was necessary, but the present grant con tained nothing that would act in that direction, or do otherwise than widen the circle of the evils now existing in Ireland. He was well aware of the difficulty of her Majesty's Government in dealing with this question. Common humanity induced not only them, but many of his own friends to shrink from refusing a grant to alle viate the destitution now existing, but seeing that the grant of 50,0001. was so totally inadequate to the ob ject in view, he thought he should but be discharging his duty by forcing h er Majesty's Ministers to the con sideration of more effective remedies. He was of opi nion that such remedies could be found; and though he had no wish to detain the House, yet he trusted they would bear with him while he briefly stated his views on the subject—views which were the result of much consideration and some experience. (Hear, hear.) Now he asked, whether the question of emigration had attracted attention in that House? He could tell them that, out of doors, it had attracted much, and would attract more; and, limited as the grant of 50,0002 was, if it had been intended to relieve these unions by applying it to promote emigration, he should have voted for it with some hope of its doing good. It was said by the Hon. Member for Stroud, and other English Mem bers, that Ireland was capable of supporting more than double its present population. But those who made that statement totally overlooked the actual state of the country. If they had the manufactures of Glasgow or the rich vales of the Lothians to fall back upon, it might be true; but when Hon. Members talked of Ireland sup porting a larger population, they forgot that this must be preceded by ameliorative measures, and that it would take a hundred years at least to arrive at the results they looked forward to. He believed that emigration would be beneficial if it was carried to a much more limited extent than was generally spoken of, if in connexion with it they applied topical remedies to merely topical evils. He was aware how unpleasant it was to the House to have private matters brought before its notice, but he hoped that he should be excused in stating the results of his own experience, his only motive being to show what could be practically effected, and the means of doing so. He was the owner of a considerable property, which came into his possession when he came of age, and was at that time principally in the hands of middlemen; a great portion of it was in the union of Listowel, which, though not in so wretched a state as some of the unions that had been mentioned, was also in a very distressed condition. He was happy to say that there were not five persons residing on his property who were receiving pa rochial relief, and yet the House would wonder that he had bees compelled to pay rates of 9s. 6d. in the pound to the support of the poor in other parts of the union. It was to him a serious fact, and he did not deny that he had a deep interest in the question of rates which thus swept away his property. From the time that he had come into the possession he had devoted himself to its improve ment, and also of the condition of those who resided upon it, and he could assure Hon. Members that it was a difficult and a tedious task the proprietor who entered upon it had—to encourage and aid the good and willing tenants—to stir up the apathetic, and, in extreme cases, to get rid of bad ones—however unpopular it might make him. It was indeed only by constant and patient perseverance that a poor could be converted into a pros perous and improving tenantry. He had always endea voured to prevent the sub-division of property. He had turned his attention to emigration as a remedy, and he had at length induced a great number of people, between one and two hundred, to emigrate to Canada, in 1847 and 1848. This, too, was at the time that the Colonial office was endeavouring to prevent emigration to the colonies, and when they were told that the Cana dians were setting their faces against any further influx of Irish paupers. Notwithstanding the difficulties and discouragements thrown in the way of emigration at that time by the Government, he was happy to say that every one of those who had emigrated, so far as he had been able to trace their fate, had been successful. The Hon. Member then read several letters from emigrants, for the purpose of show ' big the prosperity which had attended their removal to Canada. The subject of , emigration was very often talked of as an abstract question, and it was therefore that he had taken the liberty of reading the documents to the House, as he thought they ought to carry a con siderable weight with them, although they had not the official character of a blue book. He was of opinion that they should trace many of the evils complained of to the effects of the law that gave relief to the able-bodied. Of the three Commissioners under the Act, two of them were connected with the Government of the day ; had the power of taxing and of sweeping away all the pro perty of Ireland. The people of England ought to know that this was not a mere landlord question, though it was frequently represented that it was. He declared that it was not a landlord question, but involved the happi ness of the entire community. They could not, if they wished it, ruined the landlord without ruining the tenant also. He was of opinion that the attention of the Com mittee upon emigration should be called to the evils which were inflicted upon the country by the operation of the poor-law. He had heard it said that things would right themselves, and that although in the mean time there might be great suffering in Ireland, the coun try would ultimately attain to a sound and healthy state. But he denied that any such opinions were well founded, and that unless they altered the poor-law, the condition of Ireland would be improved. Lord DRUMLANRIG said he could not vote for the measure of Government. Of all the speeches that had been addressed to the House, he had listened with most attention to the one that had been delivered by the Hon. Member for Ripon (Sir James Graham), and in that speech his Right Hon. Friend had said that the time was come when Government must review the entire taxa tion of Ireland. He thought that in the present emer gency of Ireland, Government ought to have been pre pared to have brought forward a measure of a compre hensive character. So impressed was he with the inten sity of the distress that prevailed in Ireland, that unless something were now done for that country, he believed it was never likely to recover from its present prostrate and miserable condition. After what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Ripon (Sir James Graham) he (Lord Drumlanrigyoould not understand how that Right Hon. 1 1 Gentleman could vote . for the grant, although he had said he could not give his assent to the continuance of such demands. Now it was evident that unless this coun try had some security that this system of grants would not be continued for Ireland, it would only become the House steadily and firmly to give their refusal. in uttering what he had said, he wished it to be under stood that he was actuated by no feeling of bitterness towards Ireland—(Hear)—for he oelieved that no coun try had been so tried with such severe distress. He must, however, say that men had been sent into that House to represent Ireland, who had pursued a system of bullying and swaggering and endeavouring by every means to excite that most exciteable of people, the pea santry of Ireland; men who had never suggested during a long series of years any measure of a practical cha racter for Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) But what could they expect when an Hon. Member could come down to that House and make such ridiculous motions as moving for returns of killed and wounded at the battle of Bailin garry, during the late outbreak—(Hear, hear, from Mr. H. Grattan)— and also moving for a call of the House when he must have known that at the present season of the year it was next to impossible that such a motion could be of any effect. The same Hon. Member had also made a speech of a laughable, if not ridiculous cha racter, at a time, too, that Ireland was in such a miser able condition. He had been compelled to listen to that speech, which be did with no pleasant feelings, remind ing him as it did that " Nero fiddled while Rome was burning." The Noble Lord concluded by repeating that his hostility to the grant was not dictated by any hostile feelings towards Ireland. Mr. M'GREGOR said that, having voted with the Government for the proposed grant, he wished to be permitted to explain why he had done so. He had found a great difficulty in coming to the conclusion to vote in its favour,' especially when he recollected that Ireland paid no window tax and no assessed taxes, and also that she was free from the operation of many of the Excise • - 1849. taxes. He had also to recollect the great distress which the city he represented (Glasgow) endured from Irish distress, and that recently the influx of the Irish poor had quadrupled the poor rate in that city. He had, therefore, great difficulty in coming to the conclusion to vote in favour of the small grant of 50.0001. which th , Government had proposed; bur, when he recolheted that some of the unions had entered into engagements, and had, possibly, spent a part of the money now to he voted-(Hear, hear, and a laugh)—he could not hesitate to vote in its favour. He had, however, voted for it on the ground that it would be the last grant that would be taken out of the revenue of the country; and he ex pected that in future Government would lay on the whole property of Ireland a tax of so much in the pound, to meet the exigencies of the country.—(dear, hear.) He could not help referring to the extensive immigra , tion into Glasgow from Ireland, and of a class, too, inca pable of working—children, and old men and women. Taking into account the number of loans that had been made to Ireland, he would prefer that the present sum should be given rather as a gift than as a loan. He could not, under the circumstances in which many of the unions were placed, bring himself to vote against the present grant. Mr. NAPIER said he was satisfied if they thought that a people who had shown so much generosity as the people of this country had shown, would net be wilfully unjust—(Hear, hear)—and he felt that if the Irish Members would endeavour to instruct them as to the real condition of Ireland, they would do better than by an indulgence in language of a severe or retaliatory character.—(Hear, hear.) The difficulties of Ireland could no longer be evaded—(Hear,hear)—if Ireland was to be continued in political union with England. She was taken into partnership at the time of the Union, but instead of enjoying the advantages which that event promised her, she had only been made the watchword of party—(Hear)—and the battlefield on which party politics were fought. No one could doubt that it would be a great advantage to conciliate Ireland, and to assimilate her to the condition of England. That could not be done suddenly; but it must be recollected that Ireland bad now been for half a century united to England, and yet nothing could be more wretched, than the spectacle she presented. It could not be borne that she should be continued in such a position, and coming year after year, like a mendicant, imploring for aid.—(Hear, hear.) It was fit that that House should join together and endeavour, by wise counsels, to ascertain what were the causes which placed that country in her unhappy and miserable condition, with a view to their entire re moval and extirpation. At the time of the union it would be recollected that the religious and political questions which had so long agitated that country were not settled. But it came down to the year 1829, when the measure of Catholic emancipation was carried. He would remind lion. Members that at that time a great body of evidence was given before the Committee that sat upon that question, to the effect that nearly one-fourth of the population were without any certain employment.— , (Hear, hear.) At the time that Catholic emancipation was carried, it was understood that all parties were will ing to co-operate in improving the condition of the country. At that time the Catholic hierarchy of Ireland put forth a manifesto, declaring that Ireland wanted no further political advantages, and why, he would ask, did not the Government of England then take up the ques tion of the social evils under which Ireland laboured 7 (l-fear.) It had not done so, and England was now paying for the neglect of, that duty.—(Hear,) The Hon. Member then referred to the Committees which had sat upon the state of Ireland in 1830, 1833, and 1835, and stated that the reports of these Committees' had agreed in the neglect with which successive Go vernments had acted towards Ireland, and the necessity of an immediate change in the course of policy pursued towards that country. The recommendations of these Committees had been neglected, and hence that beautiful and fertile country presented at the present moment nothing but misery and desti tution.—(Hear, hear.) Each succeeding Commit tee blamed its predecessor, again and again re peating that one-fourth of the population were out of employment; and that the application of capital was the only means of bettering their condition. The House must not lose sight of the fact that Ireland had an en• cumbered landed proprietary, and that Although they had in the last session passed a Bill for facilitating the sale of encumbered estates, not a single property had yet been sold under the provisions of that Bill.—(Hear.) There was no labour fund or capital in that country, the pro perty was encumbered, and the resources of Ireland were diminished, while no stimulant was applied to industry. One million of the rental of Ireland was under the Court of Chancery, and there could be no improvement on those estates. It was a large series of practically simple mea sures they required for the amelioration of the country, and not what was called comprehensive measures. The recommendations of the experienced Secretary to the Devon Commission, in the year 1846, had not been attended to, and the report of the Commission ap pointed in the year 1845, just preceding the famine of 1846, met with a similar fate. The pledge given by Lord Lansdowne that there would be measures of an ameliorative character had not been fulfilled. The im perfections of the poor-law were manifest; but, on the other hand, he admitted that the generosity of the Eng lish people in relieving the destitution which afflicted his country had no parallel in English history. There were three classes of persons in Ireland subject to the payment of poor's rates—the proprietors, the tenant farmers, and the clergy. He admitted that the money contributed by , the English people had fed the hungry; but at the same time there could be no doubt that it demoralised the people of Ireland. After the cutting up of the roads and half finishing public works, it was well known that the poor population was in a worse condition than it had been found, the poverty of the country was increased, while its resources were diminished. That :being the state of things, property was called upon to bear the burden of the poor-law, which, even in ordinary times, should have been accompanied by measures to stimulate industry. When the Poor- law Act was passed, in the reign of Elizabeth, he found that that very session there was legislation for the purpose of re claiming thousands of acres of waste land in England, and the poor able-bodied population were engaged on useful public works. If the Irish poor-law had been accompanied by measures of employment, and the ener gies of the people aroused, then the burden imposed on property for the support of poverty could have been borne, and the country might have survived. Look at the miserable poverty-stricken condition of Ireland. He admitted that the Government had great difficulties to contend with in legislating for Ireland, but difficulty was no answer to duty.—(Hear, hear.) Nothing could possibly be more injurious to Ireland than holding out prospects of legislating for evils which the energies of the Irish people alone could remove. The proprietors had only shattered incomes—there was no market for labour in the country, there was an absence of anything like capital, yet 110 measure of a statesman-like character had been introduced. The measures brought forward by a Noble Lord, now called to his last account, and with whom he had not the honour of being acquainted, were of a character calculated to develope the resources of the country, and they characterised him, at all events, as an honest Englishman, anxious for the good of Ireland.— (Hear.) The agricultural improvement of the country was the main thing to be attended to, and they could not do that without capital. A few nights since they were promised a Franchise Bill, but it was legislation in that spirit which was the curse of Ireland. lie begged of the House to meet the difficulties which presented themselves fairly and honestly. The Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland said that the country required repose, and he (Mr. Na pier) begged, that as agitation had subsided they should have some measures for promoting the employment of the people. There never was a nobler opportunity, they might depend upon it, for a wise statesman than the pre sent, for reconstructing large portions of Ireland on a permanent and peaceful footing. He was not one of those who desired to screen his country from fair taxation; but they should candidly examine her circumstances, weigh her deliberately in the scale, and when they did so, place on her whatever burden she was in justice bound to bear. Capital, he repeated, was the great requirement. With regard to those ,proprietors who had capital, and who were willing to expend it on the improvement of their estates and the employment of the people—they were entitled to protection, for every man anxious to do his duty ought to be protected in the performance cf that duty ; and the best mode of effecting this was to care fully avoid the system of increasing the liability of the improving landlord, who, by the expenditure of his capital, and the encouragement of labour, increased the value of his property. Improvement ought to be a protec tion against instead, as it now appeared was the case, of being a direct incentive to increased taxation. If the Legislature, with increased wisdom, retraced their false steps, and legislated for Ireland in the manner which he had ventured to point out, they would set up that country again in the scale of nations, and in the progress of civilization, place her side by side with England. Mr. HORSMAN eulogised the interesting and in structive character of the speech just delivered by the Hon. and Learned Member for the University of Dublin, and stated that the circumstances which he had detailed were in themselves sufficient to induce him to give his vote in favour of the Government proposition, and against the amendment of the Hon. Member for Stroud. Besides, he could not support that amendment, inas much as it assumed that in acceding to the vote asked by the Chancellor of the Exchequer they had any choice in the matter. He was decidedly opposed to the prin ciple of grants in aid of Irish distress; but then the Government had made a strong appeal to their humanity, which he for one could not resist, and on any other ground they had not a leg to stand on. He felt and ad mitted, to the fullest extent, that those grants had a de moralising tendency on the people: but she question they had to consider was, whether, under the peculiar circumstances of Ireland, the appeal made to them should not be affirmatively responded to. When the crisis came, and the maintenance of the poor was thrown on the property of the country, the burdt•n of the rate broke down those by whom the rates were to be paid. A devastating famine stalked through the land—there was nothing like it in the history of the world—the whole property of Ireland was confiscated to the support of the poor of Ireland, yet still, the poor were in a state of famine. He could not, as a Christia❑ Legislator, re fuse, under those circumstances, his sanction to the vote, which was rendered imperative by every precept of the Christia❑ code. Nor could he attach to the vote the conditions required by the Hon. Member for Stroud. The Noble L ,rd at the head of the Government bad emphatically and properly declined to pledge himself that the present grant would be the last asked for the purpose of relieving Irish distress. lie did not acknowledge it as part of his policy, but he admitted he was bowed down to it from a feeling of its necessity. If similar circumstances :again arose he (Mr. Horstnan) would be compelled by those circumstances to support another vote; but there was ample security in the tone and temper of Parliament, and of the debate, which in dicated that they would not be trifled with on that im portant question, and that the Minister relying on future grants would prepare for himself certain defeat. He blamed Government for not lacing prepared with other measures of a more statesman-like character, and more eereen to reeve yermanent in Their results.—(Hesa mars) Instead of those measures, they had nothing bat a Committee, which was merely a make-shift wheti the time- for . action had arrived. The agriculture of the country was destroyed, and there should not now be any imp- elements ititerposed to it. revival. What Ireland requ:reil was the re-establishment of healthy agricul turist re lations. -There were three impediments to her agricultural improvements :—lesecurity Or life; tlie bur den of local texation,:and the difficulties and expense in the way of the transfer of property. Each of those was in process of gradual diminution: The first crime wee disappearing with the inducement to commit it—namely evictions and depopulation, both of which had been car dto the utmost extent. The burden of local taxation had been committed to the consideration of a Select Coniteittee, and he should not venture to anticpate their report ; but he certainly would feel surprised if they did not devise some system by which the idle and indus trious would no longer be classed together. With re spect to the difficulties in the way of the transfer of land, the Act of last sesAen for Facilitating the Sale of En cumbered Esti tes was a failure ;but, even if it had been the most perfect measure, it could not, under the circum stances of the country, have been operative up to the present time. The want of capital was one obstacle to its success. To carry out the provisions of that Act it was necessary that there should be a party willing to sell and another to buy ; but, in the present state of the country, there was, he conceived, few who would have any great anxiety -to become Irish proprietors. If, however, they removed the bur den of those rates from the property of Ireland, they would disentangle that law from the difficulties which surrounded it, and that, combined with other improve ments, would have the effect of making the Act-opera tive. They might also make a healthy .additions to the system—for if proprietors were no longer terrified by those rates a step in advance might be taken jn the for mation of small estates.—(Hear, hear.) Tee.re were many men not able to purchase extensive este see who, if these wer e broken down, would readily beconae pur chasers of sm a ll portions of them; and were that: .seine. a class of proprietors would be formed-who would be' - 4 immense benefit to the country. Holding these views, he was inclined to give his support to the measure. Ire did it upon no principle higher than that on which he would relieve a beggar, a dying beggar in the street. He might be told by political economists that he was wrong; that while he relieved the mendicant he oppressed so ciety. But there were occasions when there was more virtue in the suspension of a law than in its rigid en forcement; and if now he violated one law, he did so in obedience to another, to which he owed a more implicit submission.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. MONSELL begged to thank .the Hon. Gentle man for the kindliness of tone which pervaded his speech.—(Hear, hear.) The amendment of the. Hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. P. Scrope) might be : disposed of by the simple statement that it raised a mere peestion of words; for the Honourable Gentleman could .hardly really expect to obtain money from those districts to which it was shout to be advanced. His (Mr. Monsell's) object in rising was to direct attention to the system Of which this grant was a part—a system vicious and hurt ful to the empire at large, but especially to Ireland. He was not speaking of the introduction of an extended pour law—he thought that the greatest benefit ever cons ferred upon that country ; but the system of her Ma jesty's Government was that of bolstering up thopoor law by public grants—a system which squeezed capi tal out of the country, and made it possible for the Go remanent to abstain from introducing those auxiliarf 'measures without which the poor-law could not work. —(Hear, hear.) He did not care whether the money carne from England or from an Irish rate in aid—this system would break down the country.—(Hear, hear.) The mischief would spread; it was said that there were twenty-one unions in want now—there would be twenty more before the and of the year.—(Hear, hear.) The difficulty in Ireland was the• disproportion between capital and labour; and why did not the superabundan t capital of this country go to Ireland?—(A laugh.) Be' cause Ireland was not put into a state to receive it. 1 3 1 the system of large electoral divisions the capital th at was there was locked up, and mach was driven from the country, and, by not adopting some comprehensive mea sure with regard- to emigration, we were preventing the proper proportion between capital and labour from oh' raining.—(Hear, hear.) Grants from England dial Ire' land harm—(Hear, hear)—all he (Mr. Monsell) wante d was to see h, r enabled to raise money upon her own re' sources, and for that purpose he had not the least objee' tion to a rate in aid, or an income-tax placed upon land. But he protested against either if it was otily to prep up a vicious system which would destroy the re' sources of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. B. OSBORNE had listened with pleasure to the speech of the Hon. Member for Dublin University 0 1 ; Napier), a speech which the House had seldom hea ra equalled by any Member proceeding from the . Univer" sity.- 7 (Hear, and a laugh.) There was but one thin% to be regretted, namely, that he did not inform the,. House how he intended to vote with regard to the grill° —(A laugh)—but as he had maintained that all the, grants from this country to Ireland had been attend e d with unmitigated evil, it was fair to infer that he men' to vote against this.—(Hear.) He (Mr. Osborne) ba. felt compelled to vote against it because he thoughe bet l , : would be of no earthly use; the calculation sy" '• b h lie ved , that it would just last till-Saturday fortnlg (Hear.) He looked upon it as nothing opportunity afforded to the Government to delay those long talked-of measures with which her Majesty's _ Mi nisters had been big since 1841—(A laugh ) — measures that must be described as a sort of political " Mrs. 1-10 - roore tightoasne ris"—(A laugh)—only the darkest allusions were made to them in that House, and no man had ever yet seed them.—(Hear.) The grant would be of 110 use t o those whom it was intend e d t o re li eve; b etter t h at their pro tracted misery should b e p u t an en d to .—(oh I) This was a spurious humanity ; h e for o n e w o u ld seener, b swept from the face of the earth than drag on from 05 4 to day by means of Parliamentary grants.—(" Oh, oh, and a laugh.) It was only keeping body and soul t gether; the relief in the west of Ireland was not OW cient to keep men as men—it was justsufficient to debasa them to the level of brutes.—(Hear, hear.) The 00; cation of the English poor-law to Ireland was a gret bluneer; it was a curse to the country. In the soo t ' and west it was altogether a failure, and no tinkering' with a loan would meet the difficulties we had create Of the 130 unions into which Ireland was divided, 11 were in debt beyond their means, and thiS exclusive ° loans from Government and aid from the British AO; ciation; they owed 250,0001., having received 241,000 e . besides, and the association having also fed 200,0 00 children. In 36 unions paid guardians had been SP: pointed, and it wo u ld h ave to b e d one i n - half tb` unions in the south and west. Ireland had n o 10 4 than sixty persons to 100 cultivated acres, and, 1 1 like Engtand and Belgium, the greater proportion c ' d the population were engaged, not in manufactures e n commerce, but in ag r i cu lt ure; an d th e y were 400, mess is crowded in the di str i cts worse a d apte d f or tore. The largeness of the area of taxation was not oel a rod for the landl or d, b u t ma d e t h e s y s t em i n t o lerab l e to the claimant for relief. In most of the unions , seemed, he might have to walk 40 miles; one case b 9 ',, been stated where he h a d t o go 150. O n a corotter b inqui st lately in Newcastle it appeared that a man; a lt ,i his wife and child, had to walk three several journeY 9 d 48 Irish miles. S o lon e as t h e p resen t p ro p ort ion he' f good between the population and the rate of ,Value s ° o the property in the variou s un i ons , so l e pg 'would t" e people continue in a stat e of d es tit u ti on , a n d grants b e re quired. He warned the Government that It . ° l° e ei system of out-door relief went n for six months " Ireland, it would become impossible to save that unfortn" nate country. The same sore that was now eating into the vitals of the west and south of Ireland would soon exten", all over ;he kingdom. The Committee of th e H ous e °` Lords had declared the relief of the able-bodied as a polio/ that would prove injurious to the community. bit is l r e e t l o iy n f saidt ther.‘ta wouldb - b able-bodied dbiee population." i s a t t e i o p ri t . o ” u introduce rd t s o n d s downe, in 1846, s p o k e o f i t a being a system of a vi cious character, and one that " must lead to the coat" plete confiscation of the property of Ireland." And 0 ; 1 Noble Lord (L or d J . R usse ll) in 1846 said—" He (k -not expect such a law would relieve the miseries of Re.; land, and he much feared that instead of a remedy I would tend to perpetuate that Misery." And he pressed the hope that " s ome sc h eme for the cultiestie" of the waste lands would immediately be carried in to operation."—(Hear, h ear .) Th en , why had not t"; Noble Lord propounded hi s sc h eme o f home colonization' t —(Hear, hear.) He would tell the Noble Lord tb 6 s there must be a series of m easu r e f o r I re land ; that l' l w t one measure would relieve the destitution of tb l/ country; and he called upon th e N o bl e Lord not to throw the responsibillity of considering those in e . li ; sures upon Committees, as was now the practice l a almost every instance. Schemes of colonization e n d . of emigration would never roach the evils of Ire's° and lie would tell the Noble Lord that till he assimils te s , the laws of real and personal p ro p ert y i n th a t c oant%; and treed the land from the feudal fetters that se encircled it, no real benefit would be conferred on I r e { land. They were told that Ireland was in a State transition; but the only t rans i t i on h o saw was t h a t th e 0 were getting from bad to wor se . L e t th em not decei v e themselves with the belief that th e ev il s o f I re l a nd n, caused only by the conduct of th e peop l e an d the hi' lords. The great cause of the present state of Irel so d was vicious legislation. They used those landlord s G e long as they were useful to th em , an d t h e mome nt th e i l., were found to be of no use they threw them oil.—(H ea d hear.) People talked of g rants t o I re l an d , b ut b e e that since the Union n o l ess a sum than 18,0 00,0 0 had been lent to England and Scotland, and of that e slj e cl only 6,000,0001. had b een repa i d, whereas 9,000,0 001. been /writ to Ireland, an d o f t h at sum 7.000,0 00/• e t ' t been repaid.—(H ear .) H e did nut think, therefore , ° it' d when they struck the balance rightly the peop le ) England and Sc o tl an d h a d anyth i ng to boast is He would concl u d e w i t h th i s, that if their presente r , () )icy towards I re l an d were continued there would be-P e „ petuated in that country a state of things described or ; 11 h . an o historian—e No right, no control, the life no soe le of man nasty, brutish, and w illshort."—(Hear.), The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER -- , iis e endeavour shortly to recal the attention of the to that which it seems to have lost sight of for s - fo r hours, viz., the amendment of the Hon. Mon ber eo od Stroud. We have had fr om var i ous spea kers *trot many sp eiulations on the general state of Iteletl e atl 1410 or nothing h as f or a cons id era bl e time Pa st the said on the subject of the amendment brought bettr e . s l Hone by that lion. ;Gentleman. My Bon. who spoke last taunted the Hon. Gentleman the M his tier for the University of Dublin with having m ade be be speech without intor m i n g t h e H ouse i n what w a y es; intended to give his vote o n th e quest i on now befet s elf bat, to my apprehension, the Hon. Gentleman bi``; t eo is liable to tee charge which h e h as b r ought age in : so lse Member for for the Uni vers ity o f D u blin. He sop' about the improvement of waste lands; and, fro m s ops he has said upon that point, it might almost rto th ° posed that he was willing to give his suisPe,r t u poo amendment of the Hon. Member for Stroud_ p ; s tiol that subject he has. given ti m R ou ge. no,ing"'" h ~. 7 M 1 f r,