The Sun. — London, England, 1849-03-17 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, March 16. - - The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the Wool aack at Five o'clock. The Earl of MOUNTCASIIEL presented several pe titions against the rate in aid. Petitions with a similar prayer were presented by the Earl of WICKLOW and Lord MONTEAGLE. Messengers from the Commons brought up the second report of the Poor-law Committee (Ireland), which was ordered to be printed. REV. J. SHORE. Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition from Sud bury, praying their Lordships to adopt measures for the immediate release of the Rev. J. Shore, and to adopt measures to prevent ministers seceding from the Esta blished Church from being prosecuted ors uch secession for the future. OVERSEERS IN CITIES AND BOROUGHS. Lord CAMPBELL moved the second reading of the Overseers in Cities and Boroughs Bill. This measure was mainly intended to remove certain doubts which had arisen as to the construction of the existing statute re gulating the duties of those officers. The Bill was read a second time and ordered to be committed on Monday. The Earl of CARLISLE presented a petition from the West Riding, in favour of the Clergymen's Relief Bill ; also a petition, praying for the introduction of a com prehensive Public Health Bill. Their Lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 16. The SPEAYER took the Chair shortly before Four o'clock. TURNPIKE BILLS. On the motion of Mr. W. PATTEN, it was ordered that the time for the second reading of Turnpike Bills in England and Wales should be extended to Monday, the 23d of April next. BLACKBURN WATERWORKS._ The Blackburn Waterworks' Bill was read a third time and passed. CONSIDERATION OF REPORTS. The report on the Scottish Amicable Life Assurance Society Bill was considered and agreed to. UNIVERSAL RAILWAY COMPENSATION. The House then went into a Committee of the whole House to consider a resolution which was to be the foundation of a Bill to enable the Universal Railway Casualty Compensation Company (imposition of a per centage duty) to effect a composition with the Stamp office. Mr. HeME and Mr. HENLEY thought it requisite that some intormation should be given to the House before proceeding further. Mr. SPOONER said that the object of the measure was to pay a per-tentage on the amount of insurances Effected in lieu of the stamp duty on each separate in surance, which there would be great difficulty in doing unless through a measure like the present. The SPEAKER (upon being called upon) said it was absolutely necessary that a Committee of the whole House should consider the resolution. He had therefore advised the adoption of the present course. After a short discussion the resolution was agreed to, and a Bill founded upon it was ordered to be brought in. PETITIONS. Mr. HENRY presented two petitions, one from Pres ton, and the other from St. Helens, in favour of the repeal of the navigation-laws. Mr. SPOONER presented a petition from the soli citors of Warwickshire, praying for the abolition of the attorneys' certificate duty. Mr. FRENCH presented a petition from the grand jury of the county of Roscommon against the proposed alteration in the Irish poor-law. Mr. CLAY presented a petition from the captains and sailors of Kingston-upon• Hull against the rcpeal of the navigation-laws. Mr. MILES presented several petitions from places in Somersotshire against the Bill for legalizing marriages with a deceased wife's sister. _ _ _ Sir W. VERNER presented several petitions against the rate in aid. Mr. HUME presented several petitions, praying for a reduction of the public expenditure. The Hon. Mem ber also presented the following petitions:—From a numerous meeting of the inhabitants of the parish of St. Luke's, Finsbury, held on the 14th February, adverting to the present state of the country, and to the defective state of the representation, and praying for an extension of the suffrage; another petition from a meeting held in the National Hall, Holborn, on the evening of Feb. 15, adverting to the distress of the coun try, and complaining principally of the manner in which the poor-law is carried oat, tend praying the House would take steps to prevent the farming of pauper children; another petition from a number of Chelsea pen sinners at Chippenham, complaining of a per-cent age having been taken off their pay; and another petition from Mr. M'Dowell, who is now in prison, and who was tried at Liverpool on the 28th of August last, and condemned on a charge of conspiracy on the evi dence of certain policemen, some of whom, as he al leged, were not present, and could not have witnessed the transactions to which they deposed. Sir C. BURRELL presented a petition againt the re peal of the navigation-laws from a place the name of which was inaudible in the gallery. Mr. SCUOLEFIELD presented a petition from the congregation of Dissenters assembling in Zion Chapel, Birmingham, in favour of referring national disputes to arbitration. _ _ Mr. BOURKE presented a petition from the grand jury of Sligo complaining that the inhabitants of that county, and particularly the poorer portion, suffered from constant depredations on their cattle and sheep, and praying for relief. Mr. P. SCROPE presented a petition from the inha bitants of Stroud in favour of referring national disputes to arbitration. Lord H. VANE presented a similar petition from the county of Durham. Mr - . SCULLY presented a petition from a place in Ireland against the Rate in Aid Bill. An HON. MEMBER presented a petition from the Town Council of Cupar, praying for a reduction in the national expenditure. Mr. GOULBURN presented a petition from the inha bitants of certain hamlets in Surrey, against the Bill for legalizing marriage with a deceased wife's sister. An Hort. MEMBER presented a petition agreed to at a large meeting in Cornwall, praying for a more equal apportionment of taxation on agricultural produce. Lord MAHON presented a petition from certain soli citors, praying the House to remit the tax to which they are annually liable for the certificate to practise their profession. An HoN. MEMBER presented a petition from New castle-upon-Tyne and Gateshead, for the repeal of the duties on paper, newspapers, and advertisements. STEAM-VESSELS. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY wished to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty if six steam-vessels, the Myrmidon, the Torch, the Zephyr, the Otter, the Adder, the Dot terell, hare been sold, and if sold, for what sum, and to whom, and if such sale was by private contract or public auction. Sir F. BARING said the vessels had been sold in consequence of the purposes for which they had been used having been put an end to by alterations at the ports of Holyhead and Harwich. He had no objection to lay the papers on the subject before the House. THE LANCASHIRE AND YORKSHIRE AND SOUTH LANCASHIRE RAILWAYS. The Ear) of ARUNDEL and SURREY said, in con sequence of a dispute between the above-named compa nies, a disgraceful and discreditable scene bad taken place on the 12th inst.—(clear, hear.) He wished to know from the President of the Railway Board whether his attention had been called to the subject, and if so, whe ther he intended to take any step to prevent the repeti tion of such an occurrence. Mr. LABOUCHERE replied that the power which the Railway Commissioners possessed with regard to a matter of this kind consisted in this—they had the power of interferin g for the public safety, if the safety of the public was in danger, on the application of ono of the two disputing companies. One of these companies had applied to the Commissioners, but had not made such au a pplication as would entitle the Commissioners to interfere. The Commissioners had written to the com pany, and when they received their reply, making an application in the proper form, they would be prepared to take whatever ste,ps might seem necessary. The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY inquired if the Commissioners could, not interfere without an appli cation from one of the companies. Mr. LABOUCHERE replied that he believed they had no power to interfere without such an application. Of course if they had committed any breach of the law they could be dealt with by a magistrate. BURIAL-GROUNDS. Mr. URQUHART drew attention to the fact that the Government had promised to introduce a Bill with re spect to burial-grounds, and requested from the Noble Lord a distinct explanation of what were the intentions of the Government, and if they intended to introduce a Bill when they would do so. _ _ Lord J. RUSSELL rePlied that his Noble Friend the Chief Commissioner of the Woods and Forests had such a Bill in his possession, but he could not say when it would be introduced. Mr. URQUHART inquired if there would be any objection to a private Member introducing such a Bill ? Lord J. RUSSELL was glad to hear the Hon. Mem ber make the statement.—(" Hear, hear," and laughter.) IRISH PAUPERS IN GLASGOW. Mr. AJIASTIE presented a petition from a parochial board of the city of Glasgow, pointing out the enormous influx of paupers from Ireland into that city, and praying, 115 one means of preventing this, for the enactment, by the — oll3 e, of regulations restricting the number of steerage passengers carried between Great Britain and Ireland. Mr. u rtgurart, SICILY. rose to ask the Foreign Secretary whether the accuracy of statements made by him to the House had been King of the Two SieillV by the Government of the passed any communications on the subject have, b etween the two Govern ments, and whether he would put the House in possession of such commun ications ? very indistinctly Viscount PALMERSTON (who y i heard in the gallery) was undnerosteaoosondtrE t t N ! y t: i th r :t a n de e strictly speaking, there had been reply t h at, by the Neapolitan Government to any statement had made in Parliament; but the House General Filangieri, in the Neapolitan Parliament, had given a contradiction to the statements made by her a Majesty's Government respecting the conduct of the Neapolitan troops in Sicily. li e (Viscount Palmerston) would eng age t o lay before Parliament, in the early part of next week, the papers upon which the statements were founded, an d was on ly so rry that the great pres sure of public b us i ness h a d hitherto prevented him from doing so. Mr. URQUHART said that the Noble Lord had not touched the question in that i r T pa tof it which related to the invitation of I,9xd Atintc, t i? gples. Viscount PALMERSTON said the Neapolitan Mi nister at this court had pointed out to him that he (Vis count Palmerston) had made an inaccurate representa tion of a conversation they had had together, in which he (Viscount Palmerston) had understood that the invi tation to Lord Miuto had been given by letter. It now turned out, however, that the wish expressed that Lord Minto should be sent to Naples was not contained in the letter, but a wish that he should be sent had been ex pressed by th© Prince Castelcicala, and it was in conse quence of that wish that Lord Minto had received his credentials and proceeded to Naples. Mr. URQUHART was proceeding to press further questions, when he was interrupted by loud cries of " Order," and was at length stopped by the SPEAKER, who intimated that the Hon. Gentleman could not address any other questions than those of which he had given notice. Mr. URQUHART then begged to ask when the Nobe Lord would lay the papers on the subject upon the table. Lord PALMERSTON—This day week. THE POOR LAWS. Mr. BAINES, in reply to questions of Sir J. Pa kington, as to whether he intended to introduce any measure for an alteration of the law of settle ment, said that Mr. King was at the present moment engaged in diferent parts of the country in obtain ing information, and part of it had already been re ceived, but the Board were not yet prepared to make any further alteration in the law. Further, he might say that it was his intention to bring in again during this session the measure which he had introduced during the last, but he did not intend it to touch the mode of rating. Mr. WILSON PATTEN wished to know when the Bill to which the Right Hon. Gentleman had referred would be introduced. He was anxious to know whether it would be introduced before Easter or not. Mr. BAINES said that the measure would not be introduced before Easter. POOR LAW BOARD. Mr. HUME wished to know whether in the course of the present year they might expect any reduction in the large amount that was now appropriated for the support of the Poor-law Board. Mr. BAINES said that if the Hon. Gentleman would give notice of his intention to put the question on a cer tain day, he would give him an answer. Mr. FLUME said that he would put his question on Monday next. THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING-, MARCH 17, 1849. ANTIGUA. Mr. MACKINNON, seeing the Chancellor of the Ex chequer in his place, wished to put to him a question relative to Antigua. A few years ago an earthquake took place in Antigua, and, in consequence, a loan of 100,0004 had been made to them payable, with interest, by half-yearly instalments. He wished to know when the first half-yearly instalment might be expected, and whether any interest had been paid. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that last year an Act had been passed for the postpone. ment of the payment of the principal; but the half yearly payment of the interest was not touched by that Act. VOTE BY BALLOT. Mr. 11. BERKELEY, in answer to a question from Mr. B. Osborne, stated that he had already prepared a measure with respect to the vote by ballot at elections, and that he intended to bring it forward after the Easter recess. SCHLESWIG-HOLSTEIN. Lord PALMERSTON, in answer to a ques tion from Mr. Sandars, said that ho under stood it was the intention of the Danish Go- vernment, on the 27th of the present month, to impose a blockade of the ports of Schleswig and Holstein. The matter, however, was now under consideration, and he hoped the intention would not be carried into effect. ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. On the motion of Mr. PARKER, it eves agreed that the House at its rising should adjourn to Monday. PUBLIC EXPENDITURE. On the question for going into Committee of Supply, Mr. HUME said he had two motions on the paper, one relating to the reported explosior s from; fire damp, and the other having reference to the public expenditure. By the new rules, however, if he proposed the first, he should be precluded from bringing forward the other, and therefore, as the latter was of a more pressing nature than the first, be should postpone the motion relative to the mines till the next Supply night. Now the second motion was as follows :—" That, in the present state of the finances of the country, her Majesty's Ministers, before calling on this House to vote the estimates for the public service, should submit a general financial statement of the whole or expected revenues, and the total intended expenditure for the ensuing financial years;" and in the present state of the public mind it became the duty of the House to ex- act such a statement from Government. If the motion were irregular or unconstitutional he should be the last to press it upon the House, but when he recollected what had taken place on former occasions on the part of different Administrations, he could not help feeling that they ought to have a budget detailed to them before they voted the money, particularly when he remembered that last session they had no less than three financial statements, and yet at the end of the session they had to borrow money to make up for deficiencies.—(Hear.) The House ought to be put in possession of an estimate of the re• ceipts and expenses of the country, in order that the House might have the power of bringing the esti mates within the revenue. Ministers had the means of ascertaining with tolerable accuracy, or at least within half a million, what would be the expected revenue of the country, while they ought by this time to have made up their minds as to what the expenditure would be.—(Hear, hear.) The House, perhaps, was not aware that it was usual for the Administration, in the month of November, to call on the different departments to prepare their estimates; and the House ought not to be called upon to vote a single shilling until it was put in possession of the estimated receipts and expenditure of the country.—(Hear.) The House was the trustee of the public accounts, and it behoved every Member to ex amine them with the same care as if they were his own.—(Hear, hear.) At all events, if Government would not accede to his motion, he could only come to one of two conclusions—either they had not made up their minds as to the expenses of the country, or they were afraid to state them. They were afraid, perhaps, to bring the expenditure forward now for fear it should raise up such an opposi tion against them as would be difficult to contend against; but fortunately this was no party question. It was nothing that affected either Whig or Tory, and as therefore there was no matter of political partizanship involved in this motion, he called upon Members of both parties to give it their support.—(Hear, hear.) Now, ho could say no more on general principles. It there was any thing, or any circumstance, that could take the public accounts out of the category in which he had placed it, or out of the prudent course which he had recommended, he hoped they should hear some valid reason for preventing its being adopted, and he should bow to that reason, if he was convinced by it. He had looked for the last eighteen years at the system of the country, but he thought it necessary only to appeal to a few years, and he could not see how ho would be more likely to impress Hon. Members and her Majesty's Government than by caging to their recollection what their first act was on succeeding to the Government in 1830. On that occasion Lard Althorp, on behalf of the then Whig Government stated (and he believed there never was a mere honest man to his (Mr. Hume's) knowledge within those walls—(l.lear)—he would have taken the word of Lord Althorp as soon as the bond of most men) — when he introduced his budget on the 11th of February, that he considered it his duty towards the Government and the House to be fully prepared to state not only what the revenue, but also the expenditure of the country would be expected to be, and the changes which they intended to submit to the House. = Lord Althorp on that occasion said, " The estimates were then not all on the table, but he was anxious to state what reductions the Government had made, and what they in. tended to do." He (Mr. Hume) wished they were now in a situation to follow the example of the Noble Lord Althorp on that oc casion, for he stated first that the income of the country was then 50,000,0001. Then in the last year the expenditure was 59,000,0001. and upwards. Here, then, was 10,000,0001 of increased taxation, the re sult of the administration of the public funds from that Cperiod.—(Hear.) He stated these circumstances with deep regret, for he never experienced more rfwerpeerennea tette withthe foreign st a t es , an d economy and reform, grand p r i nc ipl es on w hi ch the Govern.. mee would act. It was re-echoed by Lord Grey in another House; and although a number of years had passed, yet Honourable Members to would recollect that say to period, and he wou ld put it to them whether the that declaration did not a ff ord great satisfaction try.—(Hear, hear.) He believedLordAlth°Pw nes oecsi olong -. as he lived, maintained and k ept to theserpr'aip Sincej Lord Althorps time, he (Mr. . Hume)to say that rule had not been observed. O n t h e contrary y now instead of being in a condition t o en j oy what w e ought to enjoy in a time of peace, namely, relaxation from burdens and relief from taxation, we have actually, since that period, been subjected to those heavy charges, amounting, in round numbers, to ten mil lions more than the expenditure of that period. He wished the present Administration would follow Lord Althorp's example. Now, he said Lo r d Althorp and the Whig Government of that day, h av i ng adopted that course before calling on the House to vote one single shilling, why did the present Government not do so now? He, therefore, said the House was bound to call on her Majesty's Government to do the same, Much, however, of the objection which he entertained to the expenditure of the Government with which Lord Althorp was connected was at that time relaxed, be cause the Government were carrying on measures of reform calculated to benefit the people. He confessed, however, that his Hon. Friend behind him was right when he had stated that he had been "hoodwinked," and in that fact the House and the country had been induced to assent to that increased expenditure in the same way as Sampson's locks had been shorn by Delilah.—(Laughter.) The way in which the Noble Lord proposed his budget of last year would never be forgotten, since it had led to a storm which had brought about very large reductions. And hero he would take occasion to observe that, whether the Government in office was Whig or Tory, all he wanted them to do was to put on the screw.—(Hear.) 1 W t hi i s w i't t a h s e . estimated expenditure of last year was 54,59 V00/ , the real ex p en dit ure was 59 00 , 0,0001. what reform had done ; and yet he had never asked for reform except that th e Ki ng, and Lords, and Commons might be removed out of the power of the oligarchy, and that the G overnment of the country might be carried on at a moderate rate, The liefvrsa Bill had endowed the naiddle-classes with vast power, and if they had neglected their duty, they were now smarting for it. With such an expendi ture the distress of the country could not be a matto of surprise.—(Much disorder prevailing in the House. (he Hon. Member complained that he could not hear himself read, and humorously referred to a ludicrous mistake into which one of the Members of the Government had fallen during the debate, the other night when a Right Honourable Baronet, according to his account, had fallen into a nap, and hearing one exclamation from his (Mr. Hume's) lips, had put a construction upon his words which were altogether foreign to their real meaning.) The Honourable Member then proceeded to continue reading an extract from a speech of Sir Robert Peel, in which the Right Hon. Baronet had called upon the Ministry of the day to render a full account of the means from which they were to obtain the sup plies before they were granted. He then con tinued to say that if he were to talk till four o'clock in the morning he could add nothing to the force of that appeal. He had now cited the authority of three Ministers, Sir Robert Peel, Lord John Russell, and Lord Althorp, all eminent men, and he sincerely trusted that the Government would now follow their example, and present a regular balance-sheet to the House, so that its Members and the country at large might understand what they were about. If they re fused, he should certainly divide the House; and he called upon Hon. Gentlemen on all sides to support him. Mr. Hume then concluded by reading the motion of which he had given notice. Sir H. WILL - OUGHBY said he had much pleasure in being able to second this proposition, believing that it would tend to produce an economical administration of the national finances. The course proposed was abundantly justified by a variety of reasons—amongst others, by what happened last session. In the last two years there had been an increase of between nine and ten millions in the national debt. He entirely disap proved of the Chancellor of the Exchequer being al lowed to go on the Stock Exchange and sell portions of stock from time to time, to raise revenue. The only light yet thrown on the present year's finances, was a statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman in the debate on Mr. Cobden's motion, that the income and the ex penditure would probably be equal. He much doubted this ; he thought it more probable there would be a great deficiency. Last year he had under estimated the expenditure by 1,700,0004, arising from three causes the Kafir war, the Irish distress, and the excess on the navy estimates.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet had argued that, as these three causes of deficiency were not likely to occur again, he should be able, by a reduction of about a million and a half in the estimates, to meet the deficiency which would necessarily arise from the cessation of the corn duties, the China money, and other causes. But was it not pro bable there would be a large extraordinary item for the war in India? Already there had been a vote of 50,0001. for the Irish distress; and he found there was already an excess on the navy estimates of 323,0001., of which some explanation would be required.—(Hear, hear.) The estimates, as they were called, were becoming less and less an index to the actual expenditure. The navy excess had risen in three years from about 140,0001. to 343,0001.—(Hear, hear.) It was a fact that in the last year about half a million had been spent on the navy estimates more than was voted.—(Hear, hear.) Though the 26th clause of the Appropriation Act allowed the sum voted for one item to be applied to another, it expressly said that the gross amount should not be ex ceeded. Hence the constitutional principle which en abled the House to control the expenditure was com pletely set at nought.—(Hear, hear.) On 26th February, 1847, the Secretary to the Admiralty had stated that 9,000 men were to be enrolled in the dock-yard corps, at a cost of 20,0001, and yet an extra sum of 50,0001. had been spent on this item. Unless the House could devise some method of preventing thelrecurrence of this, it was no use their voting estimates at all; they might as well leave them to be voted by the Board of Admiralty them selves.—(Hear, bear.) It was most important not to allow the Government to run any more into debt; it was equally important, before voting the estimates, to have before them such a statement as the Hon. Member for Montrose now moved for. He was convinced that in order to enable our productive interests to compete with those of foreigners, !some measure of real economy must be introduced.—(Hear, hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he was aware that the discussions on the estimates were generally of a very discursive character, and that it was difficult to confine them to the precise question before the House. He would not follow the two Hon. Mem bers in some of these topics which they hail introduced, and which were not necessary to the motion, to which he would confine himself as much as possible. This was not a new proposition of the Hon. Member for Montrose; he had frequently called on the House to reverse that which, so far as he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) knew had been the immemorial practice on those occa sions; and certainly the longer he remained in the House the more was he convinced of the wisdom of those rules for the conduct of its business which had been laid down in former times, and had been sanctioned by the experience of successive Parliaments. The rule that no vote should bo proposed in ways and means until justified by a previous vote in supply, was founded in good sense; and when the estimates prepared by the different departments had been voted, it then became the duty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to submit to the House the ways and means by which he proposed to meet that expenditure. It would be a sorry answer, at a time when an enemy's cruisers were interrupting our trade in the channel, and threatening to invade our shores, to tell those who claimed protection, that inasmuch as the customs revenue was falling off, it was impossible adequately to protect our trade, or our shores. He doubted very much whether such a refusal would tend to prevent the revenue from falling still further. The Hon. Member for Mon trose had drawn a comparison between the management of public and private revenues. There was a great dif ference between the cases; and in one point they were not only not analogous, but diametrically opposed to each other. When a man found his income increasing, be might be justified in spending more freely; but it had always been laid down in that House, and he held the doctrine strongly, that no improvement in the revenue would justify unnecessary expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth had laid this down as strongly as a man could do, in the very speech in which he announced a surplus revenue of five millions—he said he did not consider that that surplus justified him in calling on the House to vote a single six pence of expenditure beyond that which:the strictest ne cessities of the country required. Would the Hon. Mem ber for Montrose, after effecting certain reductions in his domestic expenditure, go to his tenants and say: " Having done this, I can now afford to reduce your rents, and I will not call upon you in future for what you have hitherto paid, and which you can fairly and justly pay?" Yet, that was the course which it was evidently the duty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to pursue with regard to the income of the country. It that income were at any time more than sufficient to cover the expenditure, leaving a fair margin, it would be the imperative duty of the minister of the day to propose some remission of taxation, and thus reduce the revenue to that which was actually necessary to cover the expen diture. Here again the circumstances which would de termine the course of an individual, were in direct oppo sition to those which should determine the course to be pursued in public affairs. In those instances in which the financial statement had been made at an early period of the session, it had always been when it was proposed either to impose or to continue a large amount of taxa , - lion; and the necessity of that course arose, not from the mere ordinary events of the year. but as a justifica tion of the measure proposed by the Government of the day in reference to a large amount of taxation. In 1845, it was done because the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) then proposed the continuance of the income-tax, which would otherwise have terminated on the sth April. In 1842, the Right Hon. Baronet made his statement on the 11th of March, when he proposed to im pose the income-tax. The Noble Lord now at the head of the Government had made a financial statement last session at an early period, when he was again under the necessity of proposing a contiuuance of the income-tax. With those three exceptions, the Hon. Member might go back to 1831, and he would find only one case in:which the financial statement bad been made at an early period of the session. If he would refer to 1835, the year about which so much had been said in connexion with financial matters, he would find that the statement was made on the 14th August. Lord Althorp, when making his financial statement on the 14th February, had said—" Though I thus early invite the attention of the House and the public to the subject, it is impossible to do it in any but a general manner. It will be quite in vain for me to attempt anything like accuracy as to the amounts of expenditure in the ensuing year." Yet the Hon. Member for Montrose now called for an adequate return of the probable amount of expenditure in the en suing year. And it should be remembered that the esti mates of the three great services had already been laid on the table of the House, and had been some time in the ' hands of Hon. Members; these formed nine-tenths or more of the whole expenditure. He had already stated, in general terms, that the probable amount of the miscel laneous estimates would not fall very far short of those of last year ; and he had also stated, at an early period of the session, what would be the probable expenditure of the year. The principle which had been laid down by the Right Honourable Gentleman the Member for Stamford (Mr. Herries) in the report which he had made to the Finance Committee of 1828 was the sound one, namely, that their first step should be to ascertain the narrowest limits within which the annual charges for the public service could be con fined, and after voting the estimates, to state the means for meeting the necessary expenditure. Such was the principle that a l wa y s regu l ated the proceedings of the House. H e h a e g agreed ye expenditure t h ausre t ee h ro e tfa R i it consistently s te limi tsntly thatwith which w a s theirt with its best interests, cou ld b e re d uced. He, therefore, invited the Hon. Gentleman to go i nto t h e discussion oa the estimates, which was the best t es t f or the expendi ture. He could assure him the Gover nment were ready theei Right t e u n Hon.ntary, o Gentleman to listen to the propositions that any Hon. Gentleman might make for a reduction of expenditure. They were prepared fairly to discuss the estimates, and to state their reasons for the amounts which they proposed. He could now only repeat the assurance he gave on a former occasion, that the expenditure for the year— assuming that the miscellaneous estimates were of the same amount as last year—would be within the income of the country. The Honourable Gentleman said that last year there were various financial statements made. They had, last year, endeavoured in every way to re duce the estimates, and Committees had been appointed to consider the expenditure. The Government, after making their financial statement, were obliged to wait the result of the inquiries instituted, and as soon as they ascertained to what extent they could make reduc tions, they made new estimates accordingly. When the Honourable Gentleman said that in former periods the financial statement was made earlier in the year than WM the Prtictice 10 present, he g3h9414 m 4190 that the financial year began also at an earlier period. Before the change made by Lnrd Althorp, the financial year began on the sth of January, now it began on the sth of April. The Honourable Gentleman was therefore call•. ing on the Finance Minister of the present period to do more than the Finance Minister of former times, because he was now called on to state the financial prospects of the year before it had begun. If the Hon. Gentleman referred to the experience of the last twelve or fifteen years, he would not find a single instance in which the income was stated before the estimates. No persons could be more anxious to effect any practical re duction than the Government. They were now endea vouring to revise the minor establishments, the estimates for which were not yet laid on the table of the House, with a view to making reductions in them. He was net anxious to lay them before the House till they had as certained what reductions were practicable consistently with the efficient working of these establishments. He thought it would bo more satisfactory that he should state to the House the probable income and expenditure when he felt himself enabled to do so, than that he should take that course when he could not state them with equal accuracy. They had been stated in general terms already. If that was all that his Hon. Friend re quired, and that was all that he professed to require, then he did not see the use of his motion; and in that sense he called on the House to reject it, in order that they might go into Committee of Supply. They could then, and not till then, properly discuss whether the es timates they proposed should bereduced or not.—(Hear.) Colonel SIBTHORP said that, although he was dis posed to place but little confidence in the motion of the Hon. Member for Montrose, seeing that he always sup ported the Government, he would vote for his proposi tion on the present occasion. Mr. COBDEN said that the answer given by the Right Hon. Gentleman to the proposal of his Hon. Friend was not a very satisfactory one. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that his Hon. Friend proposed what was impossible. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that what he stated was that he could not give an accurate account before the sth of April. Mr. COBDEN—But where was the necessity of voting the supplies before the sth of April?—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Even if it were impossible to postpone them till after that period, they might at least have an approximate statement as to the expenditure and sources of income before the sth of April.—(Hear, hear.) He wanted to have the whole estimate of ex penditure and income before them, but they did not get that. They got the army, navy, and ordnance estimates, but they had not got the miscellaneous esti mates yet.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman made use of one argument which seemed to him to be very extraordinary—namely, that they probably might be in a state of war—that the enemy's fleet might be ravaging the coast.—(" No, no," from the Chancellor of the Exchequer.) Certainly the Hon. Gentleman made use of that argument.—(No, no.) Surely he did not misrepresent the Hon. Gentleman. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—You do indeed. Mr. COBDEN could not see how he misrepresented his Right Hon. Friend, for he surely put the possible case of an enemy ravaging the coast. That was the first argument used by him. It assumed that after 33 years of peace they were about to go to war. This con stant tendency of considering war as the normal state of society was what he objected to.—(Hear, hear.) At all events, while they were at peace, let them have the advantage of peace.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Let them have at the beginning of the session the estimate of what the income and expenditure were likely to be. Although he admitted that the affairs of the nation were different from those of an individual, inasmuch as it might not be always in their power to confine the expenditure of a nation within its estimated income, yet, even in the affairs of a nation, the expenditure must in some measure be regulated by the income, be cause there was a limit to the income of a nation. When the nation at large was calling out for a re duction of expenditure, they ought to have the case placed plainly before them; and if they had the whole estimates before them, they would be the better able to judge, by reference to the sources of income, whether they could fairly and legitimately vote the expenditure, than they could when they were in total ignorance where the income was to come from.—(Hear, hear) The Right Hon. Gentleman knew from fortnight to fortnight what the progress of the income was— he knew what the progress of the Excise and Customs was. It appeared to him that it was for the House and country also to know, as far as possible, the state of the national resources. Surely there was nothing unreasonable in that. He did not propose to embarrass Government, or to throw any impediment or inconve nience in their way, by refusing to vote money on ac count. He hoped, therefore, his Hon. Friend would press his motion, and, if unsuccessful now, he trusted he would move at another time a substantive motion, that on all future occasions before the vote of supply an approxi mate estimate should be given of the income and expen diture of the country.—(Hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that his Hon. Friend had misrepresented what he said--no doubt unintentionally. He put the case of war merely as an illustration, without the slightest reference to the present or any other time, to show how impossible it would be under certain circumstances to carry out the course proposed for adoption by the Hon. Member for Montrose. Mr. HUME said that if the Right Hon. Gentleman had read his resolution he would see that he did not ask for an accurate account. There was the instance of Lord Althorp in 1834, and, subsequently, of Mr. Gaul burn, for the course he proposed. The House then divided, when there appeared— For the motion ... 48 Against it ... 97 Majority 8 —49 The House then went into Committee of Supply. NAVY ESTIMATES. Mr. WARD said that for reasons sufficiently obvious, he deferred making any observations in answer to the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir H. Wil loughby) till he commenced making his general state ment to the Committee. In his main observations he (Mr. Ward) entirely concurred. There was much truth in the observation that if an excess in the naval expendi ture was to occur perpetually from year to year, the estimates could not fairly be regarded as a just criterion of the national expenditure, and that • the House of Commons was not only entitled to call for an explanation of that excess, but even not to allow it to pass without animadversion, if it could not be satisfactorily explained. The present was the third vote that he moved since he became Secretary to the Amiralty, and he might say the first for which the present board were entirely responsible. There was first the excess of 185,000/. for the years 1845-6. This must be considered rather in the light of a supplemen tary vote than an excess. It was an addition to the navy estimates sanctioned under peculiar circumstances by the Treasury, and of which the present Board of Admiralty knew nothing. The money was expended before the present Government came into office, and the Hon Gentleman opposite and the then Chancellor of the Exchequer would, he had no doubt, assign satisfac tory reasons for that excess. Then for the excess of the year 1846-7, the present Board of Admiralty were only partially responsible, because the money was raised upon the estimate of their prede cessors in office. Then came the excess of 1847-8, amounting to 323,367/.—a large excess undoubtedly, and the first for which the present board were exclu sively responsible, and the weight of that responsibility he did not at all desire to underrate. He admitted the force of the argument urged by the Hon. Gentle man opposite against this unsatisfactory system. He thought that votes of this sort might be explained and excused, but could never be entirely justified.—(Hear, hear.) The House was prepared for the part of an ex cess for twelve months, though not to the amount which resulted at the end of the year. He stated in the House and more at large before the Committee that the causes of this excess were three: the first was the increase in the wages of seamen, which made a difference to the amount of 70,3241.; the second was that they had an average of 3,969 men more on the books than had been voted.—(Hear, hear.) The cost on this account was 245,0001. in 1847.8, as compared with 123,0001. for the year 1848-7. The third cause was on account of vic tuals, clothing, and medical stores; the amount of that these tThehye d estimate was 308,8641. In addition to this there was the cost of the dockyard battalions. The estimate on this head was in the first instance conjectural, because they could not know how many m en would enter into battalions, as it was to be a pu rel y voluntary en trance on the part of the men. The list had been filled l w u i p s o t u m l being u t c a h k thuse m th o e r fie most oeds tu rapidly p t teh economical, than they h meyod e Governmento anticipated.f considered proceeding, if they made arrangements at once for their organization, drilling, and clothing. The latter, which was a most expensive item, would be the last for five years. The total excess on this ground was 52,000/. If they erred in respect to these dockyard battalions he could only ex cp Withor n e s f o s r h rme i s gi t a r yr e d g w r it e toh t , t tbhheuet first tl cause,ns t g ep o f t a mt k h e ae n n ye b o y ue ni t e h t ar e y m e na w t ts a ot s fh o eu n nt l ic y me i re n : tainty entered into it, because men who entered the ser vice three or four years ago might only be receiving their wages in the current, financial year ; and the Ad miralty found it extremely difficult to deal with that ma tt e r . allowing ( ea a r h ea greaterr.) m regard be r of to menth e second booksofarou e n —the than had bee n vote d— t h a t h e admitted to be the root of anya evil.lltheexcessin th thing against w as Mr. H ume.) He did not mean that in the sense in which his Hon. Friend perhaps understood it; but, at all events, it was the great thing to be guarded against. The present board had given orders f or a ver y lar g e re duction of men th ree months after they came into office, when there was an average of 3,436 above the number voted. But then came the Irish relief service, the dis turbances in New Zealand, the Kafir war, the detention of ships in the Rio de la Plata, the disturbances in China and Borneo, in consequence of which the commanders at these stations felt themselves obliged to retain the full complement of their vessels. The number of men above the number voted for 1847.8 was on the Ist of March 5,300, the next month 4,778, next month 3,717, and the following month 4,134. The expenses connected with that single demand for the Irish service were almost in calculable. At ono period there worn on the coast one flag-ship, eight receivinships, three troop - ships, and thirty-one steam-vessels,g- five colliers and tenders, one naval transport, and two sailing-frigates. There were in all fifty-one vessels, with 3,100 men, besides a bat• talion of marines stationed at Spike Island. The price of coals rose from an average of 16s. to 21. per ton, because during the whole of that fearful period there was no such thing as a return cargo to be ob ta;ned, and freights were consequently doubled. All these expenses had gone to swell that excess for which the' Government were justly held responsible. No doubt the Treasury had paid alportion of that extra expense; butit was not a large portion, for there were few persons With whew he lea ilviskycl S 9 settle Acc94 l 4 gin his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.- (Laughter.) Somehow or other, in any matter between ' the Treasury and Admiralty, the former always had the best of the bargain. Under these circumstances, could the House wonder at the fact, that the excess under Nos. 1 and 2, had in the last year amounted to 303,4421. He had never attempted to disguise the fact-indeed, he had stated last year-that the number of men borne had greatly exceeded the number voted, and that unless it could be brought down, a large excess was inevitable. (Hear.) Some of the causes of the excess had been in operation during the past year. It ap peared from a return made up to the Ist of December, 1848, that instead of the average cost having been 361. 3s. I Id. per man, it had been during the first ten months of the year 39/. 95., and it had taken ten months to work down the excess of 3,947 men above the vote to 350 men below it. Whatever responsibilty was attached to that excess belonged entirely to Lord Auckland's ad ministration of the Admiralty. His Right Hon. Friend near him (Sir F. Baring), had nothing whatever to do with it. To him (Mr. Ward) it had been a subject of perpetual anxiety, as impairing, if not endangering, the administration of naval affairs by his late lamented friend Lord Auckland, which had, he believed, been conducted with as pure a spirit and with as great a regard fur the public interest as had ever been manifested by any man holding a public situation.-(llear, hear.) And he would take that opportunity of declaring, as the result of two years' experience, that he had never known a public man who had a better sense of the responsibilities which attached to the office than that Noble Lord. By his untiring industry, by his impartiality in the disposal of patronage, and his perfect self-command, he had gained the highest esteem'both of his Gallant Friends and of himself, and he regretted that his departure should have robbed him of the credit of a more econo mical administration of affairs.-(Cheers.) Every cause which had led to excess in past years had now been re moved. While the Admiralty had taken a sufficient margin as regarded the number of men, they had also brought the number within the limits o f ? the vote, and he felt sure that his Right Hon. Friend would maintain his vantage ground firmly and vigorously. He should be very much surprised if the past year was not the last one of excess in a time of peace.-(Hear.) With regard to the estimates of the present year, the discussions which had taken place on the national expenditure had sufficiently warned him that in submitting them to the House he had no easy task to perform.-(Hear, hear.) He did not say that they would please no party; because he believed that there was both there and in the country a party of practical and moderate men to whom any Government might safely appeal, if it showed an honest desire to combine economy with efficiency in the public service. -(Hear, hear.) He knew, however, that there were also two parties, one of whom always thought that the Government had done too little, while the other were constantly complaining that they had done too much. He was aware that there were soma who thought that, however the circumstances of this world might vary, in dealing with the great bul wark of England, not a ship or a man should be touched; and he knew too, full well, that he had in his immediate neighbourhood Hon. Members who would tell him that the reductions which ho was about to propose were merely a miserable instalment of what the country had a right to expect.-(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Hume, suc ceeded by a laugh.) He had thought so.-(Laughter.) Such gentlemen would not be satisfied with anything short of the standard of 1835, a standard which, so far as the navy was concerned, had been selected with as little regard to past experience as to the present wants and requirements of the country.-(Cheers.) It Wai not a very creditable coincidence that, while all parties in that House had concurred in taking that standard at the moment, because they were engaged in a struggle for popularity and place, no party had subsequently adhered to it. In the very next year, without the slightest opposition, the number of men was raised, under Lord Melbourne's government from 15,000 to 22,000, and under the administration of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, it was further in creased to 26,000. The number was then increased to 27,500, and in the years 1848-49 the number was in creased, with the addition of marines, to 43,000 men. It was impossible to assign specific reasons for such fluctuations. Something must be taken on trust, some thing yielded to discretion; but certain it was that the House of Commons had acquiesced in every increase.- (Hear, hear.) Now, happily, instead of leaving the House to either of the two extremes, the Committee of last year had recommended a middle course, in the pro priety of adopting which, as he stated in August last, the Admiralty entirely concurred. He then stated that the Admiralty agreed with the Committee that the navy was the proper arm of England, and that nothing but an ex cessive and ill -managed expenditure could deprive it of the respect which it had previously enjoyed. He fur ther said that the Admiralty were prepared to adopt the recommendation of the Committee, that there should be a general revision of the naval stations. The stations had been revised, and he thought that with a reduction of 3,000 men the Admiralty could provide satisfactorily for the honour and protection of the country.-(Cheers.) Since that time his Hon. Friend the, Member for Mon trose had taken the matter into his capacious head --(Great laughter.) To his (Mr. Ward's great sur prise, however, instead of adopting the standard of 1835, his Hon. Friend had created a new one of his own. He thought, perhaps, that if he proposed to go back to 15,000 seamen, 2,000 boys, and 9,000 marines. he could hardly expect the House to adopt his proposal. He had, therefore, chosen a very convenient half-way house-35,000 men-where he intended to stop till he could go further.-(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Hume.) Now, of course, he did not think that a reduction of 8,000 men from the number voted last year was so objectionable, so imprudent, or so unsafe as the reduction of 16,000 proposed by his Honourable Friend the Member for the West Riding ('dr. Cobden), but at the same time it was much too large, much too imprudent, and much too unsafe for the Government to assent to it. The Government proposed a reduction of 3,000 men; his Hon. Friend's proposition went 5,000 men below that of the Government, and after his Hon. Friend's reasons had been stated it would be for the House to decide between the two. He came now to the changes in form which would be found in the estimates. In that respect every recommendation of the Committee had been attended to. In vote No. 1, at p. 8, the House would find " the monthly excess of men during the present financial year;" under No. 5, the " scientific branch," including the cost of surveys;" under No. 10, " naval stores for the building, repair, and outfit of the fleet," &c; under No. 11, " new works, improvements, and repairs;" under No. 13 was an ana lysis of the expenditure of 1847-48; under 18, the Home Department disappeared from the estimates altogether, being tranferred to the miscellaneous estimates; and under what was No. 19 the whole cost of the con tract packet service was put under the head of Post office department, 50,0001. being thus added to the mis cellaneous estimates. Now the House had here not only the gross estimate and the net estimate, but they had also the revised net estimate; in other words, the esti mate from which his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer deducted 208,0001. in August last, under votes 8, 10, 11, 13, 14, and 19, which were given in a separate table in page 2. The House would, how ever, perceive that the gross estimate was the only fair point of comparison between these estimates and the estimates of last year; because what had hitherto ap peared as appropriations in aid were now paid into the Exchequer, and the country received the benefit. The gross unrevised estimate on nineteen votes for 1848-9, was 7,518,610/. The decrease on votes 1,2, 5,6, 7,8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 17, 18, and 19 amounted to no less than 1,703,3021.; the increase on votes 3,9, 14, and 16, amounted to 12,2001. The apparent saving was 1,691,1021. From this was to be deducted the whole of vote 18, for the home department, transferred to the miscellaneous esti mates 53,9501.; 611,6621. being deducted for contract packets, and 183,195/. for the packet service -Queen's vessels, stores, repairs, &c., there was a total re duction of 848,8071., leaving as the actual saving on votes No. I to 17,842,2951., as compared with the unre vised gross estimate of last year ; the savicg on the con tract packets being 25,6461., and on Queen's vessels, stores, repairs, &e., 75,515/. The decrease on the two estimates was 938,8561., and if there were deducted for saving by revised estimate of 1848 9, 208,0001., the net actual saving upon the estimates of 1849-50 would amount to 730,8561. Now, he might be told that there was some truth in these figures, and that he sought to make a comparison between the revised estimate of this year and of 1849 as actually voted. Many of the cal culations made evidently turned on that point, and it was to that he attributed the monstrous discrepancies as to the amount of saving which, by some, had been reckoned at upwards of 900,0001., while others had made it as low as 366,0001. But if the revised estimate and the actual vote of last year were compared, the result would be the same. The net revised estimate for 1848-9, with the credits in aid deducted, amounted to 7,726,6101., and the deduction of 208,0001., left 7,518,610/. as the actual vote of last session. -(Hear.) The vote proposed for this year was 6,260,7404 The apparent saving was 1,278,0001.; and, deducting the es timate for the three votes transferred, there appeared a saving on the not revised naval votes, Nos. 1 to 17, of 449,9081.; the saving in the packet estimate of 66,064/, brought the actual saving, as compared with 1848-9, to 515,9724, and with appropriations in aid now paid into the Exchequer, amounting to 214,884/., they arrived again at a net saving of 730,856/. He admitted that the figures were complicated, and difficult to understand, but such was, he believed, the actual saving as compared with the gross revised estimates of last year. He should be told perhaps that the Government had been duping the country, and had promised a great deal more than they had performed. In the statement made by him on the 20th of March, 1848, he had shown a saving of 456,8531., principally on works, steam machinery, and stores ; and he also held out a reduction in stores, &c., of 150,0004, making a total of 606,000/. 208,0001. was afterwards struck off in August; and here was a re duction of 730,0004 so that altogether there was a sav ing of 938,000/. He would now state in what way this saving had been effected. In the first place, he must state that, under No. 1, the reduction of men had been absolutely neutralised by the rise in the average price of wages from 36/. 3s. 11d. to 39/. 95.; which was the actual cost on the Ist of December, 1848, when the Ad miralty reverted, for the first time during the last ten years, to the rule laid down by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon, of taking the cost of vessels in commission as the basis of the estimate for the year. The result had been a reduction under the head of naval packets of 27,000/. Under vote No. 2 there was a de crease, as compared with the same vote last year, of 115,051/. There they obtained the whole benefit of tl e reduction, both in the number of men and in the cost of provisions. In vote No. 3 there was an increase of 9114 principally in the surveyor's department of the Admiralty, the object of which was to improve that de partment, and to prevent it from being so dependent as it had been on political changes.-(Hear, hear.) He could not speak of the present surveyor, without saying how fully qualified he had proved himself to be for his office. -(Hear.) Amongst the advantages which the public hag GinXiTeCl fr9l4 hip fICKYINCti Was s % gregOr efaelefloY • he superintendence of the dockyards. The vote for the arctic expedition having been ound quite in el quate to fit out vessels for such an expedition, there was an addi tion to the estimate of 24,822/. There was also an item of 6,500/. for the survey of the great Lagoon, running parallel with the Bight of Benin. It had been lately ascertained that the country had, as usual, paid dearly for the acquisition of geographical knowledge in Africa. The life of Mr. Middleton, by whom the survey was first undertaken, had been sacrificed; but another gen tleman, with a more iron-like constitution, who accom panied him, had survived, and was going out again'.to complete the labours which had been commenced. Under vote 6—the establishments at home—there was a reduction of 3,5541., arising princincipally from diminished superintendence in the dockyards, as recommended by the Committee of last year. On vote No. 8, under the head of wages paid in the dockyards, there was a reduction of 86,5681.; but of that sum 40,000/. was reduced by the revision in August lust. The estimates for this year included 8,926/. for addi tional hands in the dockyard smitheries, and 3,000/. for surveys of the yards, suggested by the Committee. For this the public had received more than an equivalent in a reduction of wages to the amount of 52,509/. On vote No. 10, referring to stores, there was a reduction of 342,8021. as compared with last year. Last year the vote was 1,511,6711. ; this year it was 1,168,8691. The reduction was composed of these items. The timber vote of last year was 489,0001. ; this year it was 386,000/. The vote for other stores last year was 533,000/. ; this year it was 492,000/.—the total saving on these two items being 167,000/., which we effected without trenching at all on the efficiency of the establishments. The reduction which took place con sisted in the amount of consumption. Instead of 28,000 loads of timber, the estimate was for 21,860. On hemp there was a saving of 12,000/., principally owing to a fall in the price. Under the head of coals there was an in crease of 7,0001. The estimate for contracts for Medi terranean steamer: was less than last year by 108,0001. The Admiralty began khe year with a heavy liability for engines, amounting to nearly 160,000/.; 20,000/. was put down to meet the wants which might arise in respect of steam machinery and steamers. Under vote No. 11, for new works, the gross decrease was 296,6671.; but 620,0001. having been struck off in the revision of last year, the net decrease for the present year was only 234,667/. Those who examined the estimates carefully would find the greatest possible improvement in the manner in which the items were stated. There was no mystification or uncertainty about them. It would be satisfactory to the House to hear that nearly all the great works in the dock yards were complete, including those at Woolwich, Chatham, Pembroke, and Deptford. Very little remained to be done at Portsmouth. The only heavy works remaining were those at Devonport, at Keyham and at Bermuda. Though the amount proposed for Keyham (120,0000 might appear large, the Admiralty had had great difficulty in inducing the contractors to reduce the amount below 150,000/., making the total ex penditure on that account 599,0001., or about half the sum originally contemplated. We had now, however, got into a better system of keeping accounts in the deck yards, which he was confident would be attended with the best results. As to the works abroad, those at Ber muda were in the least satisfactory condition of all. There was no place where so much money had been spent, with so little to show for it.—(Hear. hear.) The works at Bermuda had been going on ever since 1815, and up to three or four years since no one had ever heard anything like an intelligible notion of what had been done, was doing, or was about to be done. There had been all sorts of plans pro posed, all of which had been tried, and all of which had been successively abandoned. During the past three or four years, however, the operations had proceeded upon a distinct and intelligible principle ; the total cost of completing them, it was ascertained, would be 143,0001., but this outlay, if the House so pleased, could be spread very well over several years. That the works at Bermuda, so long and expensively in • progress, ought to be completed, would, he thought, be admitted on all hands: the importance of the place as a naval station with relation both to the West Indies and to the United States was beyond dispute: the House, however, had the matter in their own hands, and must exercise their own judgment upon it. Speaking generally with reference to the public works under this department. he would observe that during the years which the Hon. Member for Montrose insisted upon as the pattern period, these works were wholly sus pended, with this dangerous result in prospect—that, be fore long, Great Britain, as far as her naval stations were concerned, would not only lose her claim to be considered a great naval power, but would be in a position exposing her at any moment to a most peril ous blow from any other naval power that chose to assail her.—(Hear, hear.) Even in the extravagance which had followed that period of excessive parsimony the outlay of public money had not been at all charac terised by that recklessness of expenditure which had been exhibited by many of our railway c companies, whose affairs were direct,cl by men reported of the highest mercantile sagacity. Rely upon it, the best argument that diplomacy could use to check the angry passions which the wisest nations were subject to, was to show that their indulgence would be dangerous to those who yielded to them.—(Hear, hear.) In the 13th vote, Miscellaneous, there was a decrease of 13,147/., occasioned by the relinquishment of the plan of coast guard drill, the money already expended upon which, however, under the direction of Captain Stewart, had been most usefully employed. In the 14th vote, for half pay, there was an increase of 2,5121., or, upon the revised vote of last year, of 12,5121., an increase occasioned by the number of ships that had been paid off. As to the halt pay there existed grave misconceptions; the Hon. Member for Montrose seemed to regard the half-pay list as a sort of Government preserve for the sons, and nephews, and what not, of the aristocracy. God help these parties if they had no better resource than half-pay !—(Hear, hear.) The simple fact was, that the officers whose names occupied the half-pay list were, to a large extent, the very men who, having served their country during the war against France, had when that war ceased bean deemed to have merited their country's grateful care. Of the 3,857 officers in receipt of half-pay, no fewer than 1,915 were wholly incapacitated, as the result of their gallant services; and the Hon. Gentleman need not fear that the number was not diminishing. Between 1830 and the present time death had been at its work with these old servants of the country. In that period 2,034 names had been struck off the list by death. The Go vernment would take good care that no improper aug mentation in the list should take place; but it must be remembered, if there was no prospect of promotion, or of future benefits to be arrived at, no man who could get a crust in any other profession would enter the ser vice. —(Hear.) To the next vote, 9,7571., for good service pensions and allowances, he believed not even the Hon. Gentleman behind him would object. As to the manner in which these pensions had been allotted during the past three years, he would readily appeal to the judg ment of the whole service. —(Hear, hear.) In the vote for civil pensions there was an increase of 6,313/. neces sarily occasioaed by the reductions which had taken place in the various yards, involving, as a matter of mere jus tice, superannuation allowances in a number of cases. In the 17th vote, for transports, there was a diminution of 700,300/., arising from the circumstance that there would this year be fewer reliefs than had been known for many years past. The Post office vote spoke for itself. He would only, in reference to it, state that when the Holy head Company should think fit to propose reasonable terms, the Government would willingly transfer the packet service between Holyhead and Dublin to the Holyhead Company.—(Hear, hear.) As to future changes in the dockyards, these would, in future, depend in great measure upon the respective heads of the yards ; and, in their selection of the heads themselves, the Board of Admiralty must look less to the mere duration of past services than to the present aptitude for active and ener getic work in the candidates. With reference to the building of ships that took place last year, material errors were circulated. We began, certainly, in 1815, with an immense capital of shipping, and we had spent it lavishly. Since that year, the total reduc tion on vessels of all rates was 175 ; there having been 482 broken up, or cut down, or lost, and 304 built, the necessity for new building was clear. There had been an entire change in the calibre of the guns mounted by other countries, necessitating a similar change on our part; and the principle of ship-building itself had, as a matter of course, been to an important extent changed. The battle of the Nile was fought with 18-pounders; now, 60 and 68-pounders were common in all ships. The rate at which ships were building had been very much exaggerated recently. Most Hon. Members would have seen a statement in which it was asserted that there were no less than 67 ships of all classes on the stocks. This was not only an absurd assertion, but it was impossible to be true. There were only 36 ships of all rates now building, and the error most probably arose in the writer of the statement having taken into his calculation ships, the order for building which had long since been cancelled. It was the in tention of the Admiralty to adhere to the pro gramme laid down by the surveyor of the navy for the next five years, and to carry it out in all its parts. There was another point on which he must touch. It had been asserted that ships, if used well, would last forty or fifty years. This was a mistake. The average duration of men-of-war was fifteen years, and at the end of that period they underwent large repairs, which were almost as good as rebuilding them. The Canopus bad been held up as a model of what a ship ought to be, and the ex traordinary length of time that vessel had endured had also formed the grounds of much misconception. It had been asked why ships of a similar build, and lasting as long, had not been constructed. The Canopus was taken in 1798, and she cost almost immediately after she was captured 16,0001. to put her into repair. At five different periods subsequently—namely, inlBl6, 1826, 1831,1842, and 1845—she had undergone repairs which amounted in the aggregate to 135,5231., a sum which would have sufficed to have built two similar ships. The Nelson, again, had been cited as another example; but the money wasted in the decorations and carvings of that vessel was enormous, and then she was never fit for ser vice. The beautiful system of Sir Robert Seppings , of putting round sterns to men-of-war, had cost the country 1,500,000/, which was entirely thrown away.—(Hear.) He had little more to say, save to thank the House for the indulgence shown io him. He trusted the navy was in such a state as to satisfy all those who desired to se e England maintain her naval superiority. The Board of Admirality was taking measures to ensure responsibi bility on the part of all the heads of departments in all the branches of the naval service, and the Hon. Mem_ her for Montrose would find on the part of the Govern ment the strongest desire to carry out the most rigid system of economy, consistently with what they deemed the true interests of the country. He begged, therefore, to conclude by proposing that the number of seamen, marines, and boys employed in the ensuing year in the navy be fixed at 40,000. The vote having been put from the chair, Mr. [IUME said that the candour of the lion. Gen tleman had surprised him. No one who heard the details girea by him 9f the VXMIN4UCiI dad rfml9 99amaittecl in the naval department would be surprised at the efforts made by those who wished to effect a reduction of the expenditure. The Hon. Member had asserted that th© navy was in perfsct order. He had never heard any other statement from persons occupying the lion. Gen tleman's situation. Never was it acknowledged that any errors had been committed by the naval authorities. But was it not a reproach to the House to have sanc tioned such a system of extravagance as that which the Hon. Gentleman had exposed? The Hon. Gentleman had stated that in 1815 there was a large fund of ships form ing the naval stock of the empire. It he turned to "Han sard," he would find repeated attempts recorded therein as having been made by him (Mr. flume), in 1816 to 1825, in order to put a stop to this extravagance. Within those years, no less than 23,000,0004 had been wasted on the navy. But how was it that the Hon. Member had discovered all these extravagances and misdoings? Ile had moved the naval estimates during the last two years according to his own statement, and how was it that he had never before detected the faults he now laid hare? Whence did the light break in upon him? The Committee it was thatjhad brought all these wasteful pro ceedings under the public eye, that Committee for mov ing the nomination of which he had been so much abused. fie must say, to the credit of the Noble Lord who sal near him, that he deserved the utmost credit for his efforts and labours, but still there would be very great difficulty before any results were attained. Every Mem ber of the Committee, of whatever party he might be, had also done his utmost to promote the objects of the inquiry, and to expose the errors of the past manage ment of the navy. But notwithstanding the Honourable Gentleman's admissions as to the past, he must bear to be told that the actual management of the navy was not a bit better than it had been. The number of ships that were building, and the quantity of stores that was re quired, did not accord with the professions of economy that had been made. With respect to one point on which he had been somewhat unfairly subjected to blame —namely, as to the effect produced upon honest hard working artizans and shipwrights by the reduction of men which he proposed, he must beg leave to say that he had not been aware of the manner in which reductions of the establishments bore on individuals affected by them. All he had to say was that men were enticed from other oc cupations, and led to expect permanent work in the ser vice, and then the Admiralty in a sudden fit of economy —(A laugh) —yea, a sudden fit of economy, wh i ch contrasted strangely and oven violently with their habitual extravagance, discharged a vast number of these shipwrights, and threw them without resource upon the labour market. When he was told, as a rea son why the charges for building and repairing ships were so heavy, that the country required a certain force to be kept up, he must say that the mode of keeping up that naval force, by letting the ships rot in harbour, was most wasteful. Why not have a cer tain proportion always at sea in turn ? The fault lay in the House not looking more narrowly into the esti mates before they were proposed in Committee of Sup ply. In France and Belgium the Ministers were com pelled to justify ever item in their r es p ect i ve b u d gets before committees of the Assemblies previous to being permitted to propose them in the Houses of Assembly. He had vainly tried to enforce the same system here. He could not understand why the estimates should not be referred to a Committee upstairs before they were pro posed in Committee of Supply. Be made these remarks because he thought that by perseverance--(llear, hear) —he should be able to succeed in compelling the Ministers to take the course he pointed out. Let there be oblivion guaranteed for the past, provided the Government en tered upon a new course, now the errors of former Ad ministrations had been discovered and admitted. There had also been some very severe reflections made upon him, as if he had grudged the half-pay of the naval officers. He did not grudge any pay for past ser vices, but he did object to see young men entering the navy and thrusting aside older men, who were compelled to pass their lives in the re ceipt of half-pay, whilst they were burning to be actively employed in the service which they loved. His Hon. Friend (Mr. Ward) had stated that the service of the navy was carried on independent of patronage. That might be true as far as Lord Auckland was con cerned, and he hoped it would prove true for the future, but certainly it was not so as regarded the past, when patronage was certainly the governing principle. The Hon. Secretary for the Admiralty had expressed a hope that the House would not support his amendment; he would, therefore, proceed to state the grounds upon which he moved it, in order at least to enable Hon. Members to understand what it was he proposed. He had taken as the basis of his calculation of the number of men required for the navy, not the favourite year 1835, but an average of the five years from 1835 to 1839 inclusive, during which period the mean number of men employed in the navy was 31,469. The House was now asked for 40,000, whilst in the year 1840, when the Sy rian war was raging, there were only 34,000; and when the Noble Lord, the Foreign Secretary, proposed to add 7,000 marines to the naval force, he (Mr. Hume) had unsuccessfully opposed him. But he did not desire to bring the number of men down to the average of 1835-39, nor yet of 1840; but simply to reduce them to 35,000. Was he rash in asking the House to descend again to the level of the years 1835-39 ? He would even be contented if this was effected gradually, provided it was done; and of that the Hon. Gentlemen might be quite persuaded the country would at length make sure. Down the number must go. Would the House believe that the number of ships at present was 460—namely, 208 in ordinary and 252 in commission, added to which there were 32 ships now building. Let them put an end to building altogether. The proportion of ships em ployed on foreign stations since the year 1835 had very greatly increased. On the Pacific and south-east coast of America station there were, in 1835, 14 ships and 2,091 men. In 1848 there were on the same station 26 ships and 5,431 men, showing an increase of 12 ships and 3,340 men on this station. On the west coast of Africa and the Cape of Good Hope there were em ployed, in 1835, 13 ships, and 1,065 men. In 1848 there were 37 ships and 4,647 men, making an increase of 24 ships and 3,582 men. On the Mediterranean station, where, according to Sir G. Cocktu n, one ship-of-the line and 2 frigates w( re a sufficient squadron in times of peace, there were, in 1835, 23 ships and 6,236 men: in 1848 there were 31 ships and 8,337 men—making an increase of 8 ships and 2,101 men. Now, he would ask whether there was not on these three station an excess of ships and men, and whether 35 ships were not capable of doing all the duty that was required in those seas? All he asked for was, that a reduction of 8,000 against the proposed reduction of 3,000 of the Government, should be agreed to. Now, what was the proposition which he submitted to the House ? There were 59,000,0001. collected in the course of the year ; and out of that sum, and not out of the 11,000.0004 he proposed to make reductions. There were 4f millions expended in collect ing the revenue; but he was convinced that 2 millions annually would clear the whole expense. The estimates were characterised by most extraordinary extravagance; and the confessions of that night could not lessen the anxiety to diminish the expenses, for it was now admitted that they were in a condition to call upon the Government to have every department overhauled. — (Hear, hear.) The cost of collecting the revenue was as much now that 700 articles had been struck off the list as when they were 1,100 articles on which it was collected. He contended, and would repeat, that 2,000,0001. should cover the whole charge; but if they employed in one case nine commissioners, and in another seven commissioners, to do the work of one, they could not expect to have any limit to their expenditure.— (Hear, hear.) In addition to this he would make the crown lands productive, and in the civil list he would make a considerable reduction.—(Cheers.) Why should they have three or four pensioned chancellors, with 5,0001. a year, when one acting chancellor would suffice? Was it not possible that by abolishing the mock sovereignty in Ireland they might save 100,0001. a year? And was it not possible after the exhibitions they had had with re gard to the navy, ordnance, and army to make great re ductions in those departments? And in the colonies again, was it not monstrous that three or four millions a year should continue to be paid for their management when the people of England actually needed the neces saries of .life?—(Cheers.) He would ask whether out of that 59,000,0001. it could be denied by anY person who had looked into these estimates that a large sum might be spared?—(Hear, hear.) But if they wished to economise they must reduce the number of their men to the average to which he had referred, and must determine, as he hoped they would, that this vote should be reduced to 35,000 men. Sir F. BARING concurred with the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, in thinking that it was a great misfortune that that House sometimes looked with very large and liberal views at the public expenditure, whilst at other times they were inclined to throw themselves into the opposite extreme, and to reduce the expenditure below what was absolutely essential.—(Hear, hear.) Having been a member of the Committee which had sat upon this subject, he was inclined to admit that owing to irregularities or a want of system, there had been an expenditure which might have been saved. Still, they must remember the circumstances of the case. The introduction of steam, for example, into the navy, had changed the whole face of war, and it was necessary that this country should not be left in anunprotecteds tat ho e. lonks, andthey April, 1848, proposed there 5 ,947 men actually on the that 40,000 only should be voted. It was proposed practically, then, that there should be a reduction of 6,000 men in the course of the year; and the Hon. Gentleman now proposed a still further reduction of 5,000 men, making in all nearly 11,000. He did not think, however, that the Hon. Gentleman had made out grounds for any such reduction. The world was not quiet in 1835 or 1848• His llon. Friend forgot that they were compelled by treaty to keep up a squadron on the coast of Africa. That squadron could not be got rid of by reducing the number of seamen. That bad been a subject of inquiry before the Committee, and he trusted that the House would not, from motives of economy, so far give way es to reduce the number of men with a view of getting rid of the squadron. There was another point which hi s Hon. Friend h a d lik ew i se omitted to mention. We were bound to keep up five ships in China, Those squadrons created a necessity for 2,500 or 3,000 additional men. In matters of this kind, a reliance must be placed, to s certain extent on those who were at the head of the Go' vernment. It would be easy for him to show, by a com parison with the farce of other countries, that it would not be advisable to have less hands than there were; but he was glad to be relieved from such a task, which was always one of an invidious kind. He thought it better to place this matter on that which was the real constitu dtieonneael,gtrhoeunGdo,vveirzo,,mteloiatt of ff theits b d e a i y n gh being questionog the he best tf cojudges of the state of affairs. The Hon. Gentleman admitted he applications had from dt; Baring)that com d m i d e commerce raedgiou p it it, rotection; t e s c h t asking, under the present state of affairs, not unnatus v h rally,' i for the protection of a British ship of war, and e a r d Y n o o f t e b n ee n Since without he believed the first act that he performed in the House, tabhneed differentrel reminded ihned Admiralty,e 011 F: (5) ,.. since he had held the present office, was to answer. .1494 1 94 of o gull n$ 9facer, yrintln4 !MP _ i..'.........'...*".-......- ---/