The Sun. — London, England, 1820-10-17 00:00:00

but be (Earl carnarvon) repeated it was of no consequence. It was sufficient for that House that there bad been an improper inter ference by persons who were not accountable to that House, and over whom their Lordships had no control. He submitted, as a proposi tion that could not :be denied, that influence and responsibility should go hand in hand. As in the present case, ,there had been influence with out responsibility (for the Hanoverian Minister was not answerable to the Parliament ; he con tended, with, perfect confidence, that the King's Counsel should be directed to withdraw that part . of the case,whiCh had been affected by that in fluWtce.- .The whole charge had been surround 7 ed by diplomacy. There was at least presump tive proof that . endeavourabad been made topre vent witnesses coming foiward on the. part of the Queen. Presumptive did he say ?—there was 'eery thing but positive proof. In short, the Sc hole proceeding, from its first commencement, had'been diio'aceful. Tice:evidence had been garbled by a petty German /despot, and this charge, so disgraceful, so garbled, and so Ger manized, was brought before that House for their • LOrdships to judge and to legislate upon it. In 'fact, it could not be known whether it a pro : ceeding'of the advisers of the King of England, or of the King of Hanover. 'There would, how ever, he hoped, be a serious inquiry in another p'..a.ce, into the whole of this transaction.. ,The 'advisers of the Duke of Cori wall might have to answer For their conduct at the Bar of that House: Their Lordships Were called upon to give an opi 'nion to-day, upon 'that very proteeding,, for tue manufaCturing of • .which, its authors might to morrow he 'brought for trial to their Lordships' Bar. It had been said by -the Noble Lords on the other side, that when" the whole of the evidence should have*been concluded, their Lord ships had only to decide Whether the preaMble of the Bill' had been proved or not ; but tliis he contended was not the question. The Bill of Pains and Penalties was an unconstitutional pro ceeding, never resorted to, I. 4 at under the worst of 'GovernMents, 'and whatever might' be proved again . st the Queen, he Would resist the passing of the Bill. Even if the preamble of - the Bill should be protetl, the utmost that House could, legally do Would be to libel' the Queen and expose them selves to the derision of Europe. He Would wish the'Noble Loids opposite to consider that re- Tentemce came " better late thannever," and he would 'wish also titt these Noble Lords would 'would the great- responsibility which they would encounter - 'by pressing the present pro-' ceeding. The Bill 'could not legally pass, and it must he a 'matter of regret to every well-wisher 'of his country, that the House and . the country had been disgusted with the ribaldry and the 'Odious evidence which had been 'offered at the Bar of that House. Lord MELVILLE moved that th,e proper officer '4lonld attend at the Bar, with such parts of the 'hooks of his Majesty's ship Poictiers,as were cal 'cula'ted to chew the situation which NV:Carring ton held on board that ship.—Ordered. Porni,cross-examined by the ATTo aNtEy-GENER.4.L. Q. You said, that . yoti'reSidedat the Ba.rona is that hotise now called the' Villa Bergami ?—A. 'Yes, at present it is. • 'How long has it been so called?--,-Little thne agO. How long ago ?—After that Membruza sold it it is about three months ago. Do you swear, 't?►at it was not called the Villa Bergami till. within. the last three months ?—lt was so called even before Membruza bought it, 'and after it was bought' again by Bergami it was 'called the Villa Bergami. How long is it since it was first 'called 'the Villa Zerzatni ?---He 'bought it in 1816. '.After Bergami purchased it, did you continue to work there as a carpenter ?—I Have you continued to work at that Villa until the time you left Italy ?----When he was the mailer, I worked for him, and when others were, 1 worked for 'them. • When did you last see Bergami ?a-I do not - quite recollect ; I 'think it was in August. Where ?—At his house. Any where else ?---I have seen him in no other -place, for I never went out of the house. Did you see him the • day you left the Villa Bergami ?—No. When did you see him before ?—I left the Villa Bergami on The 20th September. I saw hirn in August, but do not know the day. Will you swear yon did not see him in Septem ber ?-1 cannot swear, it might have been the latter end of August `OT beginning. of September. 1 took no memorandum, and cannot swear. How' long before you left the Villa Bergami did you see Bergarrii;—l left on the 20th 'Sep tember, and I cannot tell whether it was :at The Utter end of August or the beginning of Sep tember. How many days did you see him before 'you left do hot know. Was it a week , ?---Kore. * Did he not reside there when you left the Villa Bergami ?--No, iire' had left some 'time. • M:" ho desired you to come over here'--No one ; my own will. Do you mean 'to swear that you came volun tarily, and no one asked you to come came here of my own will, because I heard that the Advocate, Cadazzi, was receiving witnesses, and I went to him to say something in favour of that Lady, who had done me .a great deal of good.— (The Interpreter corrected himself)—a great deal of good. An objection having been made 'to the trans lation, the Interpreter (Spinetto) said, that his lira impression was,, that the witness had said " 'good to me;" but Mr. Cohen (the Queen's Interpreter,) told 'him, that " to me" Was not in answer. The order to explain the follow ing question was put 'to the witness • Did you mean that she was good to you, or to the people generally ?—To me and to all the people of the Barona. She did a great de•al of good to me .and to all the people„ generally. • Does he mean to swear that be went, to the Nclvocato . iCadazzi, of his own accord, and that he was not asked to go by any one ?-I`es ; I will swear that before any tribunal. Did any one apply to 'him to go I'o Cadazzi before he went to him ?—Noi . I heard that Ca dazzi received depositions,i4 favanr of that Lady, andl went When was it that he went to Cadazzi the 24th of August. . Was Bergami at that time at the Villa Berga mi ?—He was not.- Was Bergami at Milan At that time ?---- DENNIAN objected. How could the wit ness know whether Bergami was at Milan or not ? It was observed in reply, that he said he went to Milan to the Advocate, Cadazzi. The ve4tion was then repeated. Answer—As. far as I know; he was not. Then you came of. your own dccord, and no one applied - to you to cou*?—l came here by my own will ; 1' heard of the Advocate Cadazzi, and 1 went to him ; and -came here to speak of the -Lady' who had done . a great deal of good to all the people of the Barona: Do you mean to swear that you went to' Ca dazzi, the Advocate, of your own . accord, and that no application was made to you for that pur pose ?—Yes, 1 , swear that before any. tribunal. Did any one apply to you to go to Cadazzi be fore you went there ?—No ; 1 heard that Ca dazzi received depositions in favour of this Lady, and . 1 went. Did any person desire the witness to come over here to give evihnee ?—Yes, this Cadazzi, who told me this and this ; that if you have any de position to make you may .go, for your deposition is good. Did Cadazzi examine you`?—Yes. Was any one else present Did you - ; in consequence of what Cadazzi said to you, come over here of your own accord ? Yes ; because I told him, that if it had been a business which required me to go an hundied miles, I would go willingly, because I would go. After you had been examined by Cadazzi; did you see' any other person upon the subject of your coming over here as a witness ?—I have seen an other English advocate at Milan. When ?—The day after I saw Cadazzi. Who was with the English advocate ?—f was in his house, and saw no one in. I went there of my own accord. Did you see no other person after you saw the English advocate, besides Cadazzi on this sub ject ?—Not then. At any other time P—When he, the Advocate Cadazzi, came to the 13aiona, I saw him and an other person. Who is that person ?—I do not know. Was he an Englishman or an Italian ?—I think an Englishman, I did not speak to him, and took them to show the house merely. - Da you know Vassali I—Yes. Did you see him at any time before you set out from Italy ?—Yes-. Ilow long before ?—lt was in August; but I do not.know when ; I have not the date. Was it before or after you saw Cadazzi ? After. Did you come over to England by yourself or with other persons ?—l,farne over in company with my- head master Girolini, and three other persons. Where did,you see Vassali—at the Villa Ber gami, or at Venice ?—AtAMilan. Where?—Near his house. I saw him as he was getting into his carriage.' Did you call at his house ?---Never. Was that the only time you called upon Vas sali ?—I saw him many times in 1817 and 1818. Have you seen him on the subject of coming here as a witness have seen him here in this country ;in London. ",* Did you pay your o‘Cn - cpences in coming over here, as you came voluntarily ?—I have not. Who paid them ?—My head master, whO paid the expences for all. Who is your head master ?—Girolini. Is he your head master when you are at the Villa Biggami ?—Yes. What are you to be paid for coming here as a witness ?—When I went to the Advocate, I told him if this wa& to be an affair of a little time, I had no objection to go. INTERPRETER.-But I forget the first word the witness said, Question repeated ?—When I went to the Advocate I 'told him, if I was to go a hundred miles I would go without pay for that Lady. What are you to be paid for coming here ?—I told the Ad vocate that if he would give somethinglo my family I would go for that Lady to the end of the woe Id. Then you expect nothing fur coming here ?—Provided they take care of my family I have no expectation fur coming here. What is to be paid to your family I—A livre to my wife and ball a lime to each of my daughters a day. Is that all you ate to receive, or expect to receive, for coming here I—This is for the assistance of my family ; but. fur myself, if they give me any thing i will take it; if not 1 most go without. Hare you made no agreement with any one 'for what you are to have for corning here ?-1 have made no agreement at all ; but as other people have hopes, so I hare hopes. — (Laughter.) Then you hare hopes of reward for coming here ?—I have told you 1 hare no hopes; 'but for the benefit that Lady has done we I would go to the c.nd of the world. You said whim you were here last, that !tastelli came with the son of the head-master to the Villa Bergami; name of the head -master ?--Antonio Girolini. Is Antonio Gir o liui an architect, th e same as his f a ther?— He is more c l eve r th a n his father. what is the Did nut young Uirolini, on that occasioN take a plan of the house'?—yes, they made a little draWing, or design. Did young Girolini make the plan?—Fes, when he came to the Barona with Dumont and Hastelli. Girolini and other persons were itp stairs, and they made this drawing or plan. Did young Girolit,i‘go away with them,after they had made this plan a—No: the others went away in a carriage. Gird "' and R.istelli went ont at another door, and when they were there, they began to leap fur joy, and to congratulate each other. while coo were at the Barons, do you rememberany danc ing when her Royal Highness was there with Bergatui?—Yes. you know a person named Antocina ?—He was Lieu teliant of the parish. What is I he extent of the grounds of the Barona I.—lt is au estate of about half a perchieha. How many acres . ?—How am I to know ? I cannot know it. You say ymi hnow Airtncina ; has he not several daugh ters ?—tie has Is children, males and females. Were his d aug h ters present at the Barons?—They clime one day when her Royal Highness had expressed a desire to See all that fa,ltil y, from one mother and one fattier. "hat other persons were present at those balls?—They were all peopl e well brought up from a- fattier well brought up, and a mother well•brought up, and the father was pre sent. IVere there many persons of a low situation in the neigh bourhood at those !Jails ?—No. In What sitdation of life Were they genteel folks. We should call Antocina a gentleman, and the others were all gentlefolks. Do you know a person named Maria Gailette ?-- , Ptrhaps she may have gone there. Who is she ?—1 do not know her precisely. Does she not keep the public house -called the St: Chrism pher?—,YOu must be mistaken in her . name ;. that iliaaet the statue (tithe landlady ; it is Rosina. How long has An; lived tliere.?-- , A long time. Has she not been at those balls•? -. -L-Yes, she came because she was brought by the other girls ; she is n respectable wo man; she is not a had woman. Is she one of the ladies yon have described as the gentle folks frequenting those balls ?—Yes she came, and came only unce,.l his Rosina. But was she one of the gentlefolks ?—Shir was the mother of another girl who used to go there. Is there another inn at4be Baratta besides the St. Chris topher ?—There is ; Berganti is the master (the owner)* But who is 'the landlord ?—Giovani Angelo ; it is now the son, but before it was the father, who was called Antonio. .Did his wife and his sister go to these halls ?—They came only once. What is the wife's sister ?—She has no sister. Do you not know a person named Baptists a blacksmith, at the Barona ?—No. There is no Baptista, his name is An tonio Mouni. Were he and his family at those halls at any time ?—No. First of all he has no daughters ; he has only three suns. Were he or his suns there ?—No, I never saw any of hem. .You say you are a - carpenter ; did you ever do any thing to a door up stairs at the Barona ?—Yes; I have made all the duo; s. I was even at work at the house of the Lieutenant. But did you go up stairs to mend a door at fhe Barona ? How am Ito remember that ? I went up stairs a hundred times to mend one thing or another. But do you remember once seeing her Royal Highness when von went to mend a door ?—No ; its that time I have not seen her. 1 never saw her when I was mending a door. I have Teen her in the hall and up stairs, but not then. Have you seen her Royal Highness in a room up stairs ? Yes, in her oWn tooth. • When you were mending a door ?—No ; it was when I car ried a chest of drawers, which had bee❑ Rut out tif doors. . . tV here was it you saw her ?—ln her own , room. Was Bergami with her ?—No. I did nut see him. Did you not .see him any where upon that occasion ?—Nu, Will you'swear you did not see biro in the Princess's bed room ?-=...Yes, I cab swear before God for this. At any other time did you see him there?—l never saw him there,'never. Have . you never stated that you saw him there ?—How could I tell Such a thing, when I never saw filar. Did you never say so to any body ?—I have told you that I 'thaw nothing at. all of this affair. • IVill. you sv,e,c it ?—Yes; 1 can swear, even before God, that I never saw them in her ossn room. Did you never say that you had seen them ?—I have said nothing of this bUsiness before; it was not me who went op stairs; for I had always four or five men under me to work. Did you not say just now that you did go upstairs ?-1 have. said thtlt I.went up stairs to mend this chest of drawers. Have you never said, that upon that or some utht r occasion you saw the Princess and Bergami together in the bed room ? Herw many times most I say the same thing; I can swear that I never saw him there. But have you never slid that you had seen bins there never said, our havel ever seen. Po you know the wife of Ittrgami ?—I do. Have you ever seen her at the Villa Bergarui ?—Yes, be fore I set out for England she was there. Did you see the little Victoritte there ?—No, the little Vic twine was at a boarding school. Where was she at school ?—I do not know the place. You said many gentlefolks went to the balls at the Barons, will you state their names ?--1 cannot state their [tamer). Can you mention any of the ladies?—l might mention Ma rian Donorini, Jueseppi DOuorini, and other persons, if they were before my eyes.. _ . . Who is the Marian Donorini ?—At the Barons. Ask who she is; where she lives ?—At the Barona. Who is she—what ?—A girl well brimght up, and the Giver of gentlefolks. Is she not the daughter of a man who keeps one of the inns at t be•Barona ?—Yes; she is the daughter of Antonio. F..ittLGREY—The question 1 with to put is, in the first place, whether any proposition w,is ever made to the witness to give evidence against the Queen, and by W110111?-1%4). Did no person'speak to him on the subject of giving evi dence against the Queen?—There is Rastelli,as 1 mentioned the other day. . Was there any other person besides Raitelli ?—There was another of the name of Raganti. who when I went to his shop sometime to buy snuff or something of that kind told me— The ATTORNEY-GENERAL here interposed, and objected to the answer being concluded. Earl GREY observed, that in his opinion, the regular way would be to hear the answer to the question which had been permitted to be, put first, and then for the Attorney-General to state his objection. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that in .his own justification he should only call back their Lordships' recollection to a former part of these proceedings, when a witness happened, in giving au answer, to say " I imagine," and was Imo ceeding to follow it up, when he was stopped by Mr. Brougham, who said we can admit nothing as evidence from the imagination. On that oc casion the Lord Chancellor stopped the witness from conchiding his answer. The objection he had now to make, and the course he had now taken, - were of precisely the same description ; and he humbly presumed he had reason for so doing, inasmuch as their Lordships had already reognised and sanctioned a precedent for it. The witness had stated that Raganti applied to him, but when he was about to detail what Rja ganti had told him, it was plain that it could not be evidence, and therefore, with a ,view to pre vent it coming on their Lordships' minutes, he had taken the liberty to interrupt the witness. He repeated, in his own justification, that he stopped the witness in order to prevent that com ing on their Lordships' notes which was not evidence. At the instance of the LORD CHANCELLOR, the preceding question and answer were read over by the Short-hand Writer. The LORD CHANCELLOR.—Mr. Solicitor, have you -any thing to say in support of this objection ? The SOLICITOR-GENERAL.—AII my objection to this testimony is, that Itaganti is a stranger to all this; for he is in no way before the Court.— Personally, my Lords, I have no objection to any evidence. Appearing here by order of your Lordships to support the allegations of this it is my duty, in conjunctio❑ with my Learned Colleague, to point out such testimony as may be objectionable in a legal point of view. Having done this we have discharged our duty. What remains is for your Lord Ships. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, it was com petent to any Noble Lord who was of opinion that a hasty or wrong decision had been• Come to in the former case, whiCh .had been cited, to call for a discussion on the subject at present. Mean while he hoped it would meet their Lordships' approbation, that he should call Upon her Ma jesty's Counsel to argue against the grounds urged in support of the objection. Mr. BhotionAm declared that he should have been perfectly satisfied to have left to their Lordships the fate of his Learned Friend's objec tion, without any interference on his part. The evidence -as touching .Raganti, their Lordships would find in page 410 ; what-was the nature of the evidence which was afterwards given, and which had been noticed that day, would be hereafter discussed, when their LordshiPs c to the consideration of the whole of the t o Bence of the case ; b t he a rehended to fficient appeared in p 410 . uth orise su w ts witbk putting of this question. ther appeare-d e",,i, Rtatelli's testimsny that 44 , 4 anti s all ag.,, a , and an active .agiint of , 'the Milan. Comlnissli, Raganti came to kaste'lli and desired 1 10 4 go to the Advocate Vilmacarti, the kn own, : e avowed agent of the Milan Commission. ' t he went—the consequence of Raganti's conl'i rl ,g e him. What did he do there ? He was eXanOtt by this person—he made a deposition on 03 ,,,, He went before the Milan Commission a dal two afterwards, *here, he says, h e Saw t ci English Gentlemen and two I-talian amanuenshs What objection then could be made to prove tsi this man wis an agent, and an agent of the .., lan. Commission ? Raganti went to Rastelli i5l. self, a witnes's and an agent telling hid t O . O , before the advocate and the Milan Comtnissle, Rastelli, in consequence of this aPnlication, °at before Vilmacarti and the Milan Commission/o, fording, as he thought, sufficient proof of t o agency of Raganti to the Milan Commiss ioll, oB let in the question now put. But he entreated o f Lords to look to the necessity there Must b e he opening a door toithis species of evidence. h ea t was able to prove that the agent of an a i o came to a witness, and said, if you will c°,oo and swear against 'the Queen, I will giv e e r e such pad such reward,—he apprehended o'o4 was no man preparrl to deny, that it was 111 ,;) material to his case, most material to the' e d i c ii of justice, that he be alloWed to produce 5 7,,,1 evidence. If he could bring some one for i ii who could state that another had come t° % a d and told him ) that if fie Would swear that he '5 seen Bergami put his hands up the Prinr es p petticoats ;. if he could bring another who 113 1' ,t great offer made to him, if he ‘vould swear to '' t he he had never seen nor heard of, except fronl D id panders of the Milan Com Mission ; if he c° l 0 . skew that it was the agents of the Milan t',l mission, • those panders of fi lth and falseli°°ii who made these proposititms, he enanght it O i li ce be a . most awkward situation in which to e ij t that House as a Court of Legislature to shut ° to ) suclr evidence in all respect s . , so important ~ wards coming to a correct- decision. IVa . i t tle ll any one, judging of the last question" of the ' i t ; n who would say that it was not most materi a l her Majesty's case to admit this evidence/ i ' ho were able to prove that there was a syste l % e i the north of Italy of going about offering a r ise , to all that could be prevailed on' to tell f° et hoods against her Majesty ? Though he mic' l ,, ll iv . . be able to prove ' the agency of the Mita; Othe mission—though he might not be able to '4 ° to length of establishing the Milan ,Commissi ° ' e „. be the agents of Government, of my Lords L is , ' a s pool and Harrowhy, whom he only rrie n tioneu. e l his antagonists in that House, and as the Co er' :o of his Learned Friends, yeehe thought he sbl, go su ffi cient lengths to show .that the evi del :, ' l l , he had to bring on this point was of a Wir t m' portant and material nature. ...Time Milan 'l lt ,l mission, it was said, was not. now sitting ; till Colonel Brown was 'Still there, and might be s f , collecting evidence. Did Raganti go alV ut Q c l ' fering money to all whose indigent ci r cuinst au g t il rendered more open . td seduction, w ithou t t i , a employer? ' ,IV3len their Lordships, saw o c many *ere so empleyed,- they could li ce te il doubt th at a conspiracy did exist—that it o;i: i d against the Queen ; but by •whom still reO l ! ii ii to be -shewn. They charged a conspiracy ag 3 ,liJ the Queen ; they meant to prove that it i g exist, although they might not - be: able to b riti, it home to certain Lords, who were their Pl i ei cular _adversaries,. and who now set thero se r o up as Judges of the Queen. He looked 11 )a the question of the Noble - Earl (Earl Gr e Pto one of the highest importance, and one vild i ll o ti trusted their Lordships would feel it their to put. 1 5 ill Dr. LusniNafrox followed.upthe argunle n ,ith -ed ,ill his Learned Friend. Raganti was charg? ). being an agent in the business, and he the'ilig their Lordships ought to bear evidence aS ° e el' acts and .conduct of whatever related to th e 0 0 letting the testimony and bringing the 'wit ° , to the Bar of that House. The Milan o° l %o' sion did employ Raganti to go and collec t ce r nesses, which he attempted by bribery an el es se ruptiOn, and the consequence 'was, that wi til i v ei' were brought to that bar to perjure thetos e o ch Was it not, he asked, material to develoP practices as these ? The depositions of th it e f lol l nesses had been all sworn to before th e ' o we ( Commission. He did not know by wha t P - f r o o that Commission had been sent et ' t a ro' this country to act under a foreign , ment, and to adminster oaths; but it 10 5 0 ' t ol e that their falsehoods, so sealed by an oat h, e a t ° them the more liable to be faithfully adhe l 4 l . tr when the - witnesses were brought to the 'erg that House. - Was it to be said that this ment was not responsible, for the acts done he ir agents because it gave no authority for ta He did hope this would never be, adrnitt e vdi plea. They would be able 'to show the ir , ° ships that there were throughout. the 1 " 1- , e e } `, / the North of Italy, agents without n umbe r 01 . e ing out persons who had any -knowledgetes to transactions, offering them money and hc l er )o r e come before the Milan Commission andj tile r , themselves there, in order that they roig": e tjo rl be bound by some tie to' support that r here. • „ 1 011/ d e The ATTORNEY-G ENER 1: began his commenting upon the bold assertions -0(0'0 continually thrown' out front the other slue op° , t 1 Bar, assertions which were not founi)t the evidence. Amongst these assertions iilll which his Learned Friend had just illa C j o e lll ' t ni the depositions taken before the Milan te o sion, had been taken upon oath. Ra s 0 11-1 e self had said that he had not been to the witnesses' had given their evideoc' same effect. va t' to Dr. LU iiINGTON here interrupted the 1 ,0 1 • ti " tr.! Gentleman,. for. the purpose • of interrupt 0 , 6 51 a part of the evidence of Raggazont, rfoll of the printed minutes, which he read 45. ill ri IlerE w, D --y e I o fu,e it t Evid I►ad .tat abi, shi r Nvoi tiv• ,I itt , b ee , !lad th e i ,th e th e , ha s . den IP- 111 'the 411 Silji