The Sun. — London, England, 1824-03-06 00:00:00

to bmr all the inconrcnierice of payiny their tidies in kine, rather than submit to this attemptut exaaction Mr. GOIII,BIJRN said, it was illll.*Ali ;lc ira to te pre prt:ed to answer every individual CAM! t:ouNh icrward, too, with,,att notice. For the present, however, as to me cf the Ckrgymen alluded to in a particular parish trx Woodward), he could say, with the most perfect confidence, that a more respectable Clergyman did not belong to the Established Church ; and that he constantly resid e d n70:1 his li v i ng . lie should make inquiry into the subject alluded to by the peti tion; but he thought it right to say thus much, lest any one Member of the House should receive an impression unfa vourable to Dr. Woodward, upon the ex parts statement of the petition. ?,Ir. DAWSON spoke also to the . tmemplary character of Pr. Woodward, to his residing upon l living and expending :he produce of a considerable property he had here among his parishioners. Sir...lollN NEWPORT said, that, of course, no Al; - ober could he understood to pledge hiim,elt to the truth of the state ment in every petition he presented. had received the petition - in question from a Nobleman, a Lord of Parliament, who had pledged himself to the truth of its conterra,; and he ‘Sir John) thought therefore it would not become 'niin to say, he did not believe his lordship,.and. therefore to decline pre senting the petition.—(Hear, hear.?) The petitions were ordered to lie rot:_ the table, and be printed. SEA-BORNE CO A LS. Sir THOMAS ACLA ND presented a petition from Eit gm, _in favour of a repeal of the Duties on Sea-bone Coals - . IbOOTLE WILBRA HA 31 supported the prayer of the ;t4r. HEATHCOTE moved .that there he laid before the' Mouse a return of the quantity of Foreign Flour and Grain warehoused up to January, 1324,-,-Ordered. COARSE• LINENS. Mr. HUME, seeing the Right lion. the Chancellor of the - - ,'Exchequer in his place, wished to know whether h e co nti nue d in the.ue.terrnination to limit the withdrawing of the ,bounties to, Coarse-:Linens only, only at and under, wren-pence 'a yard ? Such a determination, in the part of 'Scotland which he repre -seated, would be attended with the .most, disastrous conse quences. Even under the annunciation of snCh a proposition, a complete stagnation in that branch of industry look lace. He .wished to hear from the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, whether it was his.ileision to 'limit the alteration to the coarse linens, or to apply it generally.— ( Hear, hear !) The CIIA:‘iTELLO2 of the EXCHEQI.IM in.re ply to the question put by the Ilonourable :Member For ber deen, that it was his intention to depart so far fro.n SlAterneut, as to make the reduction on those bounties apolicable, by a per centage to every class of Lioeni.L.. - ,(1-lear,. bear !) . , . .51r. 31ABi:111 4 1 . expressed his conviction that such a dis pensation of equal justice in all the branches of the manufac ture would give general Satisfa;:tion„ NEWRY. • Mr. BROUGHAM presente.l3. aintition from r -tants of Newry; against the Bill for Paving,, Watching, Clzan sing, and Lighting the Town of Newcy. After a "few words' front Mr. BrtuwxLcrT and Sir JOHN NEwPOttT, the Tetition was 'brought up, and ord , A - A to be printed. PLAN OF PINANCE,, Mr. WESTERN presented a petition tinm a town in ESsex, we believe BilleriCay, expressing- the dissatisiaction of the in habitants with the Chancellor of the ExchNiuer's Financial •Plans, and their hope that those plans . .would not receive the sanction of the . 11ouse.—Ordered to be printed. CO3IBINATIQN LAWS... . . . .. . _._ .. ...'fir.I3ENNET, -precanted a petition from the .Journ;ynre T 1 15. atter* of-London ofid•Southwark praying for the. Repeal of tile Combination Laws—eitlered to b.. - ! print:d. Sita DUTIES. • Mr.-BARING presented a petition from the Silk-manufac •turera of Taunton, against the proposed alteration of the laws srelative to the silk-Taste. It was, he sail, signed by every manufacturer (except one,. and his objection was not to the principle of the petition), and they all concurred in the opinion that the measure, if persevered in, would terminate in the de struction of the trade. • .114 Mr.. Baring) thought the subject deserving of the most• serious consideration ; for although lie Was, and ever had been, a friend to the ayetem of freedom in free trade, yet-be e thou g ht that the Lgvialatuee would do worse • tax: nothing by partial alterations. 'Theyought tirst to alter t. laws which tended to increase the price ofdebour. long ereethe corn laws were maintained, it wafteahautd to talk of free clietze of trade. The duty of 30 per cad...lse:lld not protect the manufacturer hare, for it was against a duty of SO per cent.' that they had to compete. The silk-trade was-so much dependent on • fashion, and France had so far got the start of us in dying, front • the. application of chyrnistry to that art, that he feared at first the situps would be tilled with French sal. Ile could not, therefore, rely on the principles of general competition in thi s article. It was to be considered also, that this was a flourish ing trade, and all that the manufacturer resuized was to be let alone; and after all, it was not a question ofereeiprocity on • . t he part of Franc, for she did not engage to lake ear steel :,or woollen manufactures in return. It was, therefore, neither jor,the general benefit, nor for the particular benefit of the trade concerned : be trusted, therefore, that his illisjesty!s :Ministers aaroald abandon the plan of interfering with it. He should cor tainly vote against it, unless th e proper preliminary steps were :taken by the repeal of the regulation laws; b?tween the master , an d labourer, and also put them in a state not to pay twice ite much for bread as the foreign artisan paid. At Taunton pm . visions were cheap, yet it could beslueNn that at Lyons and in Switzerland, where they had the raw materials, except India : and China silks, the price of provisions and labour was so low, that they could produce so a s totally to destroy our rratnufec tore. fir thought the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the E x chequer) had acted rather precipitetely ia not taking the opinion of any of the manufacturera. Who was the sponsor for the measure, he was yet to learn, asewellaawhat portion of the trade bad sanctioned the plan. ;Irire CANN' NO said, he .would not follow the Honourable alklertibez into the general field of discussion which alte flail opened ;- but he begged to call the attention of die House to the situation in. whietr the Hon. Member would place all dio'e • who were desirous of entertaining the principle of the general freedom of commerce. Tire Hon. Alember hail laid,. down principles which would put an end not only to this measure, —bat to all other branches of trade labouring under similar un natural restrictions, for the system was to remain untouched until' the corn laws were repealed;' for if. the principle applied. to this trade, it equally applied to the growers-of corn and wool. But h e (Ai n Caroling) denied that there was any reason for exemptin g the silk trade from The operatiorceif those general principle.: which the Hon. Member had away.: advocated. • Mr. DENMAN admitted abut they were not tawalt till all other regulations had been removed, but he thought the House, were to inquire what might be removed with the least injury to' individuals. This would create distress in the great menu lac. : toeing towns like Coventry and Nottingham -; it.weuld he an e injustice to them, therefore, to proceed in this measure, 'when' so many taxes might be repealed without a voice in tha country being lifted up against it. Who would be against the repeal or toe probete and le gac y d ut i es , en d t h e d ut i es on conreyances -oflami a or the window taxes? The question was not whether trade trade should be free or not but what duties should be taken off Mr. HUSKISSON said the. Hon. and Learned Gentleman had overlooked the main arrangement, for the alteration in eiVay a system of prohibition the most offensive of all others in its consequences, as under it the officers of the Excise were authorized to enter the houses, not of dealers only, but of any person, in search of smuggled silks. The real question was, whether the system of prohibition should be repealed ? Hon. Member for Taunton had stated that labour t•as higher here than in other countries ; but was it higher to this manu facture than to other trades and manufactures—in the woollen and cotton, for instance, and yet in those manufactures we com peted successfully with foreigners ? On the authority of a French writer, who had access to the best sources of intOrma tion, he could . state, that the report of silk goods from this country exceeded the exports of France and from that circum; stance, the House would judge whether, with a dirty of i 0 per cent., our manufaCturers would not be quite equal to compet •ing'with ,France -in our own market. 'rho llOn. ii,mtleman (Air. Baring) charg •d the Government with rtsliness, in not having the authority of individuals in the trade; but had he forgotten that there had been an inquiry by the other House of Parliament; and from the report of ther Committee, it would appear that all the manufacturers who had given evidence•were of opinion that the system had cramped the trade and,prevent ed the flowing of capital to it. Mr. DEVENPORT said a few words against the altera tion. Mr. ELLICE was-for . commencing the alteration of the sys tem in same branch of our industry not so liable to a succe3iful . competition on the part of f ore i gners . Th e silk trade was or recent introduction • here, and • was not a native manufacture. The cotton trade was generally referred to as analogous; but in that trade w e had the advantage of machinery. He agreed with the Right lion. Gentleman in thetadvantages which would re sult by removing all restrictions, but he (Mr. Ellice) was for making the experiment in some branch not so dangerous as the silk trade; and first we ought to begin with taking off those taxes which added heavily to the price of labour. The great objection lie had to the measure was this—that if 30 per cent. duty were laid on, that amount would never go to the reventie ; Silks could now be smuggled in at from 10 to Li per cent., and if they were to be allowed to be sold openly in the shops, he left the House to judge whether tht swipe, Jr or the revenue would profit the most. The Corn-laws mrlt soon have the o f the Legislature. • With them ttt 'beginning must I Ihe made, and then the manufacturers would be less disposed to throw obstacles in the way of the removal of restrictions.— At the present moment, whilst the masters complained that, from the price of labour, they were unable to c om p ete w i t h fo rci:mers, th e l a b ourers themselvesl complained that their wages would scarcely furnish thrm with the means of subsistence, Gs. a we J: being the sum no* paid. Mr. P 1 /H. said, that admitting as Ite.didthe full value of the generel principles, respecting the freedom - of trade, lie would ask of Gentlemen to select any other trade in which si milar prohihitions existed. The fact was, our general system was free; the prohibition was the except i on , an d not t h e ru l e. Our steel, cotton, and woollen manufactures were free; and when the Honourable Gentleman would here them begin with some other than the silk trade, so far from having a system to begin, we ha:l one to conclude, of which that trade WAS the remnant. - Mr. ELLICK and Mr. Pener. mutually explained. Mr. PHILLIPS gave credit to the Ministers for a sincere desire to adopt such measures as would be beneficial w the commerce of the country. Sir J. NEWPORT was convinced, that no greater benefit could he conferred on the country than would result front the measures proposed by his Majesty's Ministers. It was natural to suppose that difficulties must arise from a change in that system which had been so long pursued; but whatever they might be, they should be looked yin the face, and the sooner this was done the better. Mr. EGERTON said a few words which were inaudible in the gallery. Capt. Al /IBERIA' thought it was incumbent on every inde pendent member in the house to rapport his Majesty's Govern ment in the tneesure they had devised for relieving the public burdens, by taking off the duty on silk. Mr. T. WILSON was as willing as any other lion. Mern 'tier could be, to testify his approval of the candid manner in which this measure had been brought forward, but he could not help at the sane time expressing some - doubts whether the present :- wee a fit opportunity for carrying it into effect. The opiriiorehe had formerly expressed respecting the wool duties, remained unchanged, and applied with equal force to those on silk. Until by an alteration in the corn laws the people of this country Should be enabled to eat their bread as cheap as th e people of foreign countries, the repeal of the duties on silk would fail of the end it was intended to accomplish. He was convinced of the inexpediency of that measure at the present Moment, but belied one consolation, namely, that the Chan. eellor of the Exchequer had expressed his readiness to enter into a full discussion of the subject. 'When that discussion should take place, he '(Mr. Wilson) intended to exp ress hi s opinions, and the grounds upon which they were formed, at greater length. Mr. LITTLETON supported the petition. Mr. HUM would be glad to know who it was that corn .plained of the repeal of these duties. Who were the petitioners —were they workmen, or masters, or both ? lie would sup. p oite them to be both. Fir the evidence given before the CoiriMittee, this feet scented to be - established—that if the raw material of silk could be obtained upon - as easy terms as raw cotton,' there was no reason why we should not excel ether 'nations in the manufacture of silk as we did in cotton.—(llear.• hear !)—What would be the effect of this wise - measure ? Why, to take twenty-five per'cent. off the price of the raw Ifetiele, and to throw much more extensive employment into the/lends of the manufacturer ; for it could not be doubted that the- immediate effect of this redtshtiori would be an increased consumption ; and that therefore every man now petitioning against it Irons a mistaken view of the case, would be immediately "benefited by having full em ployment; and he (Mr. Hume) would venture to predict that every silk-weaver's wages would be increased twenty five per cent. beyond what they had been for the last six Months. %%'hat were they afraid of ?•' The home marhet could not be injured ; for that would - be at least as good is sites is now. With 25 per cent. less duty, on the rew trial, We should be enabled to compete with fOreign mar kets; while a duty of hl) per cent. on foreign manufacturee would be a sufficient protection to our trade. It was well know. M n that any .articles -were now manuf a ct ur ed i n tetindon and sent to the coast, ,where they were scald .as French goods.— Why, then, if we could now come so near-the foreign menufac . -• tures as to cheat the intelligent persons .who fancied them selves such good judges, what should we not be ableto do when the shines were taken o ff? If 30 percent: was not a sufficient protection to the home market, the trade was not worth pro tecting. lie was of opinion that the general result of- the mea sure proposed would be highly beneficial both to the Man-tithe turers and the dealer s ; a nd he was sure, notwithstanding their - present objections to is, that they would hereafter oin in thanking the Ministers for having passed it against their melit anon. Sir JOHN WIIOTTESLEY thought the representations made ur tht silk-manufacturers of the inconvenience they wtrz likely -t o experience from this measure - dcsenred attention. Ile, however, rove principally for the purpose of asking the Right lion. Gentleman, how long it was intended that the state of un certainty and.c9nfusioa which the, intimation of of the proposed repeal had Occasioned was to continue? FOr his own part, he thought this measura, as well as the others which had been brought forward with it, onklit to be even un. Ha was aware, 'that to ask for this would be asking a great 'deal ; he was quite sure, if the Right Hon. Gentleman would relinquish the- repeals he had proposed, and the sums intended to be appropriated to Windsor Castle and the new churches; and thmering those sums over the four years which his financial plau embraced, would repeat the window -tax, he would not - only - give greater satis faction, be affbrd a much more setisible 'relief to the whole country. I , dr: SMl'rll oppused the object of the petition, and said, t was quite a new doctrine that the "taking off a duty from a raw material could be injurious to the - inanitfacturers. He ex pressed his gratitude to Alinisters for the measures they had brought forward, and the spirit and energy with which they pro posed to carry them into effect--(Hear, hear!) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that after the proposition had been so ably supported by his Right Hon: Friends, and had received also the powerful and disinte rested support of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite - , he should not thiniC it expedient towaste the time of the House by entering into a long discussion on it, even if hia strength permitted hint to do so. Itis only object in rising was, to answer a question which had - been put to him by the Hen. Baronet, who had just sat down, - and the Member tOr Coventry, as to the course he meant to pursue. He was quite as sensible as they could be of the inconvenience of delay i • and if he were to follow hi s own impressions, be should have laid the details of time measure be fore the HOuse at an earlier opportunity. But he had reason to believe, that several parties interested in it wished to have some communication-with him on the subject. lie had been occupie:la great part of the day with some of these parties,.and lie believad there were others who still wished to see him. It was, however, his intention on Monday next, when the Cus toms acts shoultrbe before the House, to give a distinct expla. nation of th e manner in Whicth - it was proposed to effect this measure, in co n f orm i ty to t h e pr i nc i p l es he ha d b efore stated. (Hear, hear!) Alderman BRIDGES supported the petition, and said hedid not - believe that even 50 per cent. would be an adequate protection to our trade against many articles of French manu facture. Mr. CUR TEIS spoke against the repeal of the duties on silk, and said he could tell the Right Hon. Gentleman of a way by which he cotild set himself right with th e * country. If he would only sa y a word to th e m a b out t h e tartson leaiher, malt and hops,'he would receive a much mo re gratifying approial from the neople at large than all the plaudits of his civil bench or of that'side of the House could afford him...4A l aug h . ) Mr. MUNDY also supported the petition. The proposal of the Right li on . G en t. h a d create d considerable inconve nience in the counties of Chester and Stafford, as well as in that of Derby. ln.D . ,•rby he und ers t oo d t h at none of the manufacturers h a d s tock in their looms of legs value than 2001., and some of them as much as 2,0001. Mr. ITALDIM AND trusted that the Right lion. Gentle man would persevere in his measure. Nothing could he more certain than that every protection and bounty was detrimental to trade ; and that no trade was worth carrying on which could not support itself. The chief object of tile Chancellor of the Exchequer in repealing the duty on raw silk would, however, be frustrated, if he.did not at the same time repeal the Spital fields Acts. Thefact was, that many articles were manufac tured. in that place 100%. per cent. dearer than at Coventry. It often happen:A, upon the spur of the moment, that it was better worth while even to pay that additional charge than to send to Coventry; but he asked whether, as applied to foreign trade,' it was possible, tinder such restrictions, that the manufacturer could compete with other markets ? There was another topic he Would take this opportunity of mentioning. We were told we had a free silk trade with India; this he denied •, it could not be called a free trade se long as the East India Company could limit the number of individuals who were permitted to go out to India.—(Hear, hear !)—An instance of the in justice of this practice had lately fallen within his own know. , ledge. A person was educated in a silk warehouse in this country for the purpose of goin(r afterwards to India to en gage in that trade. It was well known that the number of persons acquainted with the value 'and nature of silk in India was extremely limited, and that coarse and fine de scriptions of that article were sold at the same price. An appli cation was made . .to the East India Company 'to allow the person he had - alluded to, to be sent out to a private house in India, carrying on trade there, and the application had b e e n refused. He did not complain of this, because their act justi fied the Company in this, but it proved that they did exercise such a controul. It had been intended to present a petition to the Board of Control, but this was abandoned, because he was told that there was not the least chance ctf its being heard. Before he sat down he would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman why he proposed to make the duty on Bertta . ' raw silk 3d. per lb. and that on Italian.raw silk 61. per lb. liehoped, since the House had recognised the sound principles of free trade, they would act upon them by establishing an equality in the terms upon which raw material should be received in England. Mr. PORTMAN supported the petition. Mr. WYNN, whO had given way to the last speaker, said lie did not remember since be had enjoyed a seat at the Medal rf Controul any instance like that which had been alluded to. The Board had frequently given - permission to persons to go out, after it had been refused by the Court of Directors. In no awe in which-the individual had the certainty of obtaining full employment was permission refused to him. Mr. 11A I , DI3IAND said, the person of whom he spoke had been educated for-the purpose -of going out to the house Of Pal mer and Co., at Calcutta, as a clerk. ;When the application was made for permission to the East India Company, they an swered there were a sufficient number of young men unem ployed at Cal cu tt a , an d th a t if M essrs. Palmer wanted sleeps, they might simply themselves there. Mr. WYNN said it was not usual to grant permission to persons going out merely as clerks, because they were not sure of employment one day after their arrival. It was, besidee, the necessary policy of the Government of India to suffer the natives and half-c,tietes to fill such offices as they were compe tent to ; and if Europeans were permitted to till these offices, the natives would he deprived of employment. Sir T. LETHBRIDGE supported the petition. Mr. EVANS (as we understood) was of opinion, that if the assessed taxes bad been taken off, to an amount equal to that of the remitted duties, it would have proved a measure much more beneficial to the community than that other remission, Or the remission of an equal amount of any indirect taxation what ever.—(Hear !) An Hon. Mites:melt (whose name, we did not learn) said, he should have a Petition to present to the Douse, the subject of which it might be very proper to mention at this stare of the •present discussion. It prayed for the repeal of tire existing duties on the trade between England and !rebind. 'These were at present on such a footing, that cotton goods were frequently sent from Ireland to the places of their manufacture in England. Mr. BARING, in addition to the important fact that had just been stated by the Hon. Member, would beg to remind the House upon the general object of re c ip roca l d irt i e s, that the question of' dation, as between this country and foreign states, was a totally different and distinct one from that of reetric lions on the trade between different' ports of the same empire. lie was of opinion, with other Hon. Gentlemen, that the low wages rind dense population of Ir e l a nd might prove the m eans of introducing manufacturers into that country with great bene fit and effect. It had been said by an Hon. Member who opened this debate, that he (Mr. B.) had been guilty of a great abandonment of the principle% of free trade which he had for merly advocated, in now coming forward with his expeptionitO them; but he begged to say, that whatever might have been the view which the p o liti ca l e conom i sts o f that louse had taken of the subject, ha himself heti never carried those principles further than to advocate a free trade of the raw material, and a free transit trestle of every other description ; and his object in supporting the principles of free trade to the extent and un der melte conditions, was, that this country might become, as it were, an entrerpOt for the commerce o f a ll t he world. But he never had maintained, that without any reciprocity whatever in the system of other European nations, Great Britain ought to open a free intercourse, as in manufactures, with the Continent. The argument of the economists, (as he might very properly term those Han. Members who had most entertained such spe culations), and of other individuals out of the House who were of the :ante way of thinking, went to this,—that every article caught -to be got where it could be got at the cheapest rate; — that ifa the people of Milan could furnish them with certain silks more cheaply than any other people, they had better get the would otherwise a erw t i commoditythat capitz : w i t;r ic o i t l n 3 se fil i a la n r ; e a b n e t e i n the wh et o ia ll i y Ou e s n o l f ployed upon this silk transaction, they might employ to greater Advantage elsewhere. That was the principle of the Gentle men he spoke of; but lie never carried it to that extent, for he was convinced, that if they carried on a free unrestrained trade with the Continent, while its ports were, in regard to many commodities, shut upon us, the consequence would he, that where our manufactures had tite. advantage of theirs, they would take them ; but where theirs exceeded ours, they would compel us to take them, or exclude us. Mr. DA VENPORT was unfriendly to the new system Of reciprocity he that extent to which it hadbaen carried, and par ticularly as •to the silk trade. He was tearful we should lose both the substance and the elindow,—that is, the trade and the revenue of 700.,0001e or 800,0001. which our Government had been accustomed to tier:ye ironsit. up The peti t ion, to be whichp w rinsaed front Taunton, w as th en b rought , and orered t. Mr. W. SMITH, after a few prefatory observations, brought up a similar petition from the mitchante, manufacturers, and others interested In the .worsted and silk manufactures of the city of Norwich.--Laid on the table,atitt Ordered to be printed. ftEctpIIOCITY OF DITTIFS.• CIJRTEIS said, that a d u t y was inittc*d- in France on British vessels of a certain de%cription, from which French ves sels of the same kind v;rer c'exempt in this country. Ile wished to know whether it was in the contemplation of Minister/ to do any thing on the subject.. Mr: HUSK /SSON rand that by the Reciprocity-err Duties' Act, his M a j es ty i n Council was authorised to impose on fo reign ships a countervailij'g duty equivalent to any additional duty which a Foreign Power might think tit to impose on Eng lish vessels. As duty of tide kind having been impoSed by. France, he should feel it his ditty to propose an O r d er in Coun cil mount for t. • Hehe establihad sh no ment of a countervailing duty to an equ a l a 1 eoubt that France, when this matter was communicated, weuldzsc e the Poli c y of removing the duty al .luded to by the Hon. Gentleman. GREAT. !HUTA i se NA ND SOUTH AMERICA. • Sir J. 31ACKINTO''" ,said, that having c a ref u lly per used the pap ers w hi c h tr t3re l ast night laid upon the table of the House, he rose to pr o p o se to the Right lion. Secretary for Foreign Affairs one ( , )1 ' tw o questions upon eubJecte eon-s nested with them. The fi rst of these questions would be, wile flier any answer had been received from the Court of Madrid to the Dispatch from thi"°Yerninent, dated the 30th .tan. ? (near!)—lf such an an swer had been received by his illa- Jesty's Government, he Pr esu rned there could be no objection on their part to lay it before the House. Ills second ques tion was, whether his 31a.Lestra Government possessed' the decree, or, if not the original even an authentic or accurate copy of the Decree said to have been Made by Ferdinand VII., professing to : regulate the c ommerce o f vast countries in South America that had I TV ceased to acknewledge his authority ? If such copy was in the possession of Ministers, he supposed there could be no ob jection to its f proottet.on. He should also be ..desirous--and to this he could anticipate no objectiona-that there shmild be laid before the House a copy of the treaty entered into between Great Britain anti Spain in the year `1810.; which treaty was referred to in that dispatch of the 30th of January, as grantin g to Britisinsubjects a right ' of trade with the subjects of Spain in the two hemispheres. — (Here, hear! )-ICow, he knew it 1,43 possible that that treaty might have been printed, or have been, in some shape or other, already laid before Parliament. if -- so, he was not aware of the fact ; but he presumed that tile treaty alluded to could not be that which was made with Admiral Apodaca, for that was made in 1809. If it had not been printed, he should either move that it be printed, or give notice of a motion for he pro duction, according to the answer which he might receive to the questions which he had addressed to the Right Hon. Secretary. Mr. CANNING observed, that to tine questions of his Honourable and Learned Friend he would answer separately, but he would invert the order in which those questions had been put. And first as to the supposed treat; between Spain and- Great Britain. No such treaty was in existence to the best of his knowledge. In the year 1810, when this country proposed to interpose her mediation between Spain and her Colonies in America, it was merely upon an- understand ing between the two Governments that the coast law of Spain was suspended as between the subjects of the two nations. No instrument, as far as he had ascertained, was in existence, in which this agreement was recorded. Any motion, there fore, by his Honourable and Learned Friend upon the subject of this supposed treaty would be unnecessary, for there would be nothing to produce. As to the second question propounded about the decree, he knew of that only as a wetter of public notoriety; but he really could not say whether it had been yet communicated to his Majesty's Government in that authentic shape that would entitle it to be considered as a document in their possession. Ile (Mr. Canning) rather thought it had not been so communicated, but that any knowledge ofit which might be possessed by his Majesty's Government was derived from its having appeared in the ordinary way in public journals. If, however, such a decree had been communicated to them, they would undoubtedly not object to lay it before Parliament. As to the third question, whether any answer bad been received from Spain in reply to the dispatch of the 30th of January, he had no objection to state all that it was in his power to state about the matter. He believed that an answer simply ac knowledging the receipt of the dispatch had been received by this Government. In reply to the remaining pasrt of what had been addressed to him that evening'by his Honoura ble and Learned Friend, ire would merely say, that there were circumstances which would prevent his (Mr. Canning's) stating to the Mouse at presentany thing further as to the precise state in which this country now stood with respect to America. We understood the Right Hon. Gentleman to add, that the dispatch in question. was not laid before Parliament while it was yet upon • its way to Madrid, because, had it been laid on the table at an earlier period, it was obviously possible that the Colin of Madrid might have read the important dispatch in question in the public papers of this country before it reached theol'in its more authentic shape. It was upon this account he begged his Hon. and Learned Friend to 'postpone his 'motion. The moment that an official answer should be received to that dispatch, it should be laid before Parliament.—(Hear !)—The scope of his lion. and Learned Friend's motion (for though it was shaped in this manner, it clearly went to this extent) was to induce his Majesty's Govervment to lay before Parliament such documents and papers as might shoW to the. House the ptincipl es upon which Government had hitherto acted, and intended in future to act, in regard to America. But he freely told his Honourable and Learned Friend, that if the communications which Ministers had already made on this subject had been such as to entitle them to the confidence of Parliament, he should resist every attempt to extort further information, or to compel the produc tion of further papers relative to these matters under the pre sent state of circumstances. If, on the, contrary, the commu nications which Government had made had not entitled them to the confidence of Parliament, his lion. and Learned Friend would be at liberty to take his own course upon this important affair. Sir J. MACKINTOSH, in explanation, said he had listened to every-word that had fallen from the Right Hon. Secretary ; b u t as at present advised, he saw nothing to induce him to alter his original intention, which, at a future day, he should be dis posed to carry- into effect. GAOL ACT AMENDMENT BILL. On the question that this Bill be read a second time Mr. G. BENNET intimated his intention of opposing seve ral enactments of the Bill in Committee. Re called the atten tion of the House to the severe inequality of the punishment of the tread-mill (to the discipline of which, properly applied, he was friendly), owing to the absurd varieties of construction upon which those mills were built in different parts of the country. The Hon. Member then referred to some calculations which had been made of the degrees of labour in some tread mills, compared with others. 'From these, it appeared, that taking the height of the Monument to be 172 feet, the persons working in some tread-mills ascended the height of that build ing 32 times, in others, 83 times, and others, aain 96 ties, in the cour se o f one d ay ' s work. • He next adver g ted , to a le m tter from the keeper of Lancaster-gaol, in which it was stated that 10,000 feet of labour (of ascent on. the wheel) was sufficient fur the labour of one man in the course of a day, and that! by a calculation it appeared that a day's work of 12,000'j feet of ascent was equal to the lab our o f- walking thirity seven miles on level ground. In the (Anumittee he would purpose to limit the labour of the men to 10,000 feet. and that of wom en t o 8,000 f eet, in tile course clone day. With reSpect to inferior prisons belonging to local jurisdictions, be observed that most of them were destitute of the ordinary conveniences of a prison; some were without bedding, some without allowance of fire, and others without any employment or religious instruction. To obviate those evils, he would move in the Committee, that the provisions of the bill should extend to those places—that the local Magistrates should be obliged to commit the prisoners to the county jail, and pay a certain portion for their maintenance, anti that they should be obliged to send lunatic prisoners to sonic asylum. .11r. PEEL said that he concurred with the last speaker en ' tirely in the propriety of not sending untried prisoners to the tread-mill. The last act gave the Magistrates the power of putting tireen tb such work, if the parties wished it ; but it was misconstruction of that Act to say, that Magistrates could compel untried prisoners to work, by threatening to withhold from them the prison-allowance, if they refused. He was sur prised at this construction of the Act, the words of which were, he thought, so plain ; hut to prevent any future mistake, he would introduce a clause, that no untried prisoner should be compelled to do any work against his will, but that whether he desired it or not he should not be put to the tread-mill.—(llear I respect to the plan of fixing a maximum of labour, he did not think it would' be productive of any good. If 10,000 or 8,000 feet of assent were taken as a maximum, a Magistrate would have no discretion ; and what might be an excessive degree Of; labour to one man, would be comp arat i ve l y light to another. ! The calculation of 12,000 feet of ascent on, the mill being equal to 37 miles of walking on level ground, was most extravagant and erroneous. It was founded on an assumption of the ascent on the wheel being perpendicular. lie denied that the labour at all corresponded to perpendicular ascent, or that it was equal with that of dragging up the body at every step. But he had not heard—what would be a more decisive objection—th a t the labour of the mill was generally prejudicial to health, and he knew of none other which gave a more equal division of la bour. As to smaller jurisdictions and local prisons, he thought the Honourable . Member's proposition of oblig ing the local Magistrate to commit to the O)ttnty in general be rather a disadvantage than a convenience' to the party committed. He wished that the power of local jurisdic lions could, without any violation of present i n t erests, he trans ferred to the judges of the land : but as they at present stood, h pr e es d e id nt n i o t t i - I t l h w in o lc ul e d he proposed, change wou ld b e a benefit. The not extend to interior prisons, but he begged it not to be understood that he was on this account indifferent to the state of those prisons—they might be the subject of a separate measure. With respect to the last point, that of luna tic prisoners, he did not see how the evil complained of could be remedied by the Bill .Sir T. BAILING was net averse to the use of the trc.atl-mill as a means of punishment, if subjected to proper regulations, by which excessive labour might •be avoided. Instances of great abuse had oc c u rre d from the want of such r egu l a ti ons. ne was a case of a woman committed in Surrey, who, though only a short time after her acconcletment, was, when sent to prison, put on the mill, from which she was soon after taken in a state of great exhaustion. Mr. 11. SUMNER complained, that the Hon. Baronet who spoke last had not given a fair account of Mrs. Loder's case.— Silo was committed for having had an illegitimate child, which was the third which she had borne to three different men. He would make a statement to the,Hotise which would prove that working at the tread-mill hats been beneficial to Mrs. Loden— On the 31st of October she was weighod—(a laugh.)—and her weight was 8 stone 2 pounds. She was weighed again on the 13th of December, having, in the interim, Worked on the mill, and her weight had increased 4ilpounds. On the 2d of June she wax weighed again, not having been on the wheel since the 13th of December, and it was found that she had /oat 2 pounds. —(:1 laugh.) Mr. WESTERN, as we understood, expressed an opinion unfavourable to thearead-mill. Mr. COURTENAY agreed with the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury, that the state of the small prisons was deserving the serious consideration of the Legislature. He approved of the introduction of the clause to prevent the prisoners committed previous to trial from being. employed on the tread-wheel. Mr. Alderman WOOD condemned the practice of placing women on the tread-mill. He thought that Mrs. Loder hail been very hardly dealt with ; and for what ? Because she had had three children by three fresh men. —(A laugh.)—lt was very singular, that whilst all the country prisons were filled with men committed on charges of bastardy, or for offences against the Game Laws, nothing of the kind took place in London.— (A laugh.)—lle hoped to see the day when no English Magis trate would be found who would set a female to work on the tread-mill.—(llear 1) The Bill was then read a second time. THE MUTINY BILL. On the question that the House do resolve itself into a Com mittee on the above Bill, Mr. HUME rose and objected to the measure, because it authorized the infliction of corporal punishment on 73,000 men. His attention Was particulary called to the subject by a circular recently issued by Lord Bathurst, recommending the total abolition of flogging in the West !Indies. He could not . ..understand why a species of punishment which was considered improper to be used towards slaves, should be inflicted upon freemen. Ile was convinced :that • the prac tice of flogging degraded the army. The Honourable Mem ber next observed, that the inhabitants in the neighbourhood of the King's Mews were greatly annoyed by the cries of soldiers who were almost daily flogged there. Independent of the corporal punishments, there were regulations connect ed with our military system, which made it surprising that the bill before the House should so long have passed without objec tion. One, immediately, which lie could instance, was the ar rangement as to the sale and purchase of commissions. Surely if there was one being more than another whose word ought to be undoubted, an officer of the army ought to stand in that estima tion ; and yet there was a regulation existing at the present nio meat which enforced the necessity of telling a falsehood upon almost every man who came into the service. Every officer who purchased a commission, and every officer who parted with one, was compelled to declare on honour that he neither took nor gave more than the regulation price; while it was notorious to the whole army—and must be notorious to the Duke of York himself—that, in nine cases out of ten, more was paid than the parties declared to. Suppose an officer to be challenged in a jury-box with this declaration—what would become of his evidence—would credit be attached to it ? He (Mr. Hume) did hope that, for the future, no officer would be called on to give any such assurance. .Upon the subject of the corporal punishment, lie was loth to detain the House too long; but he hoped that his Majesty's Ministers, while they were protecting the black slaves, wo u ld no t f orge t t h e w hit e ones . li e h ear d that there were some ships of war in our service, in which dis cipline had been maintained for years. without the infliction of a single lash. He heard that this had beep done in some regiments ' • if in one, why not in all ? Of lat e y ears , a system had been adopted of placing soldiers in solitary confinement ; he wished to know to what perio4Ts the confinement was used to be limited, and whether' Government had received any .report as to its effects? The plan of solitary confinement was one which he approved, provided the . power was not left open to abuse; but he was surprised to hear that, in some instances, men who were put into.tonfinetnenVlbecited their pay ; and that that pay actually went into the pockets of the officers who sentenced them.—(Loud cries of No, no.")—Well !he should be glad to be told what was th e p ract i ce o f t h e G uar d s, an d , indeet, of the army generally, in that respect. The -Hon. Member sat down, by moving an instruction to the Committee, to insert a clause in the Mutiny Bill, abolishing flogging in the army. Tf his amendment, in the present stage, was informal, he wo o/d move it when the House was in Committee. Sir HBNRY lIAftDINGIi replied to that part of the Hoo- Member for A berdeen's speech which referred to the punish" ment of soldiers in the barracks of the King's-Mews. He begged to state, that during the last 12 months one man onlY lied been punished from the regiments occupying those bar racks; but he thought decidedly that the power of flogging was essential to the discipline of the army. Mr. HUME explained. Sir It. WILSON had always considered corporal punish ment to be equally cruel, degrading, and unnecessary. In Germany, in France, and even hi Prussia, it was no longer practised. If it was to be got rid of at all,' it must be got ri of by positive law ; or else, where a commander recommended a s disuse, regimental officers might thro w th e bl ame upon him ef any accidental disorder that. followed. The present moment was most favourable fbr abolishing a punishment which wag disgraceful to the nation, and ruinous to the character of the army ; we were not now. as in time of war beating about the . country to enli s t th e re f use o f man ki n d ; ' but if the fear o f flogging were removed, we might compose our regiments of men to whom th e di sgrace o f dismission fronythe service would be a warning against misconduct sufficient. Colonel WOOD observed, that the present subject was a very good one to make a speech upon ; but, as far 3- 1 his experience had gone in the command of a militia regi ment, he thought he could not . have maintained disci pline without the poWer of corporal punishment. The HO nourable Member for. Westminster, (Sir Francis ..Burdett) had no doubt effected good by the attention, which he -had for merly paid to the question; and he (C6lonel WoOdi firmly be lieved that the Hon. Member would more recently - have touched upon it, if he had not been satisfied that no farther benefit wale likely to result from his exertions. With respect to solitary confinement, the Commander-in-Chief's notice had been draw , ' to that point of arrangement; and the utmost period of ir9- prisonment was limited to six weeks. He (Colonel Wood), however, strongly objected to sending men, by way of puni'sia meet, to the tread-mill; and so (while Honourable Meinbers were talking of the honour of the service) mixing refraecory soldiers up with common felons. Mr..lOllN Still TH, apart from every question of military detail, wax oppoacd to the principle on which military flogging proceeded. Torture inflicted upon the body could never pre-- vent men from committing crimes ; it only produced obstinacy in the sufferer, and p er h a p s • a spirit of brut a l revenge . His objection- was, that the pUnishment was at once cruel and in effective. O t h er an d m ild er measures could not too soon be carried into execution. Mr. 310Nt;TiwasOppoeed to the system of corporal punish ment. It was admitted that the practice had diminished within the last 20 years, and he did not hear, any where, that the dii-• cipline of the army had fallen off in consequence. The fault of our system was, that we held out too few rewards to the sol dier, and so were compelled to use compulsion to induce him to do his duty. In France, where commissions were given aces , sionally to private soldiers, and where to be dismissed from is regiment was consequently a loss, the use of the lash did not appear to be found .necessary ; and it had been aleo dispensed with in a regiment of our own (the Blues) in which there was a fund instituted to reward steady conduct. , The House then went into a Committee. Lord PA LMERSTON advertri to one point of t'ic . Honourable Gen.leman's argument—that. of the right of the Crown to dismiss officers 'without -the intervention of a Court-Martial. Upon that subject the opinion of Parliament .had been most clearly declared, that it was an inherent prerogative of the Crown, necessary to the preserv ation of the constitution. As to the arrears of pay in the eases of solitary confinement, they went to the stock-purse of the regiment, to defray the expences of recruiting, hospitals, and other things. The punishment of flogging was ancient--eit was derived from the Roman army to the Braish. It was neces sary, not only to the discipline of the army, but, to take that power a'ray from the prerogative, would be to endanger the constitution. Theobservations on foreign discipline must be taken with some allowance. The French army had not duo punishment of flogging, but they were less tenacious of life. —Surely no one could wish to see capital punishments in- I creased in the British army. While h.! was, with the army of occupation in France, he heard of several men of the Russian 'forces dying from the severity of flogging. In the Prusiden army there were two classes. On the first - offence, the men were degraded to the second from the first, in which they were not subject to corporal punishment. In the second class they were subject to stripes, which were :graduated by a scele—an ensign could inflict 10, a lieutenant 20, a captain 30, a major 40, and so on. This was not the discipline to be de : sired for the British army. 'He differed, in short, on funda mental. grounds from the propositi on o f t h e lien. Gentleman. The power of the Crown to order and dispose of the forces by sea and land bad been repeatedly and constantly recognized by statute.,:. _To interfere with that power in the deta;ls b •of the army was nothing lens than a . gross 'abuse of • the powurs of Pailrilyia.n‘liern.t.SMlTH protested against the'pri..Aciple by the Noble Lord. A mare monstrous proposition had never been made to the Holm; whose right of interference was so - emphatically preserved by the mode of providing for the main tenance of the navy and army. He was of opinion that military. flogging was a bl o t u p on t h e serv i ce, a stain upon the nationald character. He attributed the preservation of the custom to the love of power, and the reluctance to let it go inherent in human nature. Alr. lILTAIE moved a clause for abolishing corporal punish ment altogether, any thing in the Bill to the contrar notwith-. standing. The Committee divided on the clause. For the Motion - - - - 24 Against it - - - •SO Alajority against the clause 26 The Bill passed through the Cominittee—Report to be brought tip on Wednesday next. r. BROUG - HAAI moved for the production of the copy of the minutes on the trial of the . %lissionary Smith in Demerara. Ordered. The, Annual Indemnity Bill was read a third time and passed. 31r. HUSKISSON said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would certainly bring on the subject of the sugar dutieS on Moo. day next, as they would othewise expire on the 24th.inst;.' file ATTORNEY -GENERAL obtained leave Co bring in a bill to alter and amend the law's respecting insolvent Debtors. The bill was brought in and reaara tirst time, and ordered to be read a second time on Monday next. The other Orders, of the Day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at HALF-rASTONE O'CLOCK. EAST INDIA 110USE.—(FtunAir.) Adjourned Debate on the Motion for applying to Parliament for the Repeal of the 46th Clause of the Act 53d George 111. cap. 155, with a view to alter the discipline and powers of Professors in Hayleybury College. The debate upon this subject was resumed, when several more Gentlemen delivered their sentiments ; but nothing new was advanced. Sir G. ROBINSON was persuaded that the Company re ceived great benefits from the system pursued in the College ; but he was satisfied that it required much improvement. He objected principally to the statute of selection, and thought that so odious a power as it gave ought to be abrogated. He thought the evil would be obviated by giving to the Professors an in crease of power; but at all events he would leave the duty of amending the evils to the Court of Directors. Mr. K INNAIIID replied. On the question being called for, a ballot was which was fixed for Wednesday the 31st instant. CITY BUSINESS. • A Common Council was lipid yestertl:ir, iu consequence of a Requisition to con.ider of petitiorivg the House of Commons for a repeal of the flou , :e and Window Tax. Mr. FAVE r. r. shortly addressed the Court, and concluded by moving a Resolution for the Court to adopt a Petition ,to the House of Commons accordingly. The Committee appointed to carry into execution the Act of Parliament for rebuilding London Bridge, presented a re port of their proceedings towards carrying the same into exe cution, and of their having, with the approbation of the Trea sury, contracted with Messrs. Jolliff and Favell, to build the new bridge, and to complete the a pp roac h es t h ereto, f or 426,0001- —the new bridge to be built to the westward of the present bridge, so as to allow the same to remain for the accommodation of the Public, until the new one is finished, which is undertock to be completed within six years, and in the event of its being found necessary, in the progress of the works, to enlarge the waterway under the present bridge, due provision has been made for the same. The Report was read, and after some observations from Mr. TAYLOR, Mr. SMITH, Mr. JAMES, Mr. Alderman Wool), Mr. Deputy OLDHAM, and others, was ordered to be entered. Mr. Artorri.-it is with regret that we an nounce the death Of Mr. Viotti, the celebrated performer on the violin. He died in London, on the 3d instant, after a short illness, in the 69th year of his age. The name of Viotti, as connected with the musical annals of the age, will occupy a proud and prominent place, both as a composer e nd as a per former; a nd his memory will be long endeared to and cherished by those friends who had the happiness of knowing .and ap preciating his many admirable qualities in private life. He was a native of Piedcnont.