The Sun. — London, England, 1820-05-17 00:00:00

the Recruiting Service, be thought, might lie ad. vantageously altered. He wished Recruiting Parties to receive their pay and allowances from the Paymaster of the Regiment while they were away from the regiment, instead of from the Pay 'nester of the District• This, he thought, would Simplify the accounts, and if it did not do good by relieving them from their present intricacy, still the measure would be desirable on the score of economy. Before the year 1795, such recruiting essablishenents as at present existed were unknown. TheSr had only been formed in time of war, to settle more easily the accounts of Regiments abroad. A return to the old system be calculated would produce an immediate saving of 14,0001. tumidly, and eventually a s saving of 20,0001. Aright be expected. He had been on the recruit ing service, anti had had five or six parties under him ; sonic of these were distant from each other and train him a hundred miles and more, but he had found it perfectly, practicable to conduct the service on the plan which he now recommended CO the House. The (tiding-school at Pimlico, which had been formed to instruct cavalry in the lance exercise, it appeared to him wa.s no longer Vented. He wished to know why this expence Vas necessary. The reduction of three District Quarter-masters, which lie recommended, would give a further saving ; and the reduction of the establishment of the Adjutant-General in Ireland, which lie thought might be placed on the same footing as the Adjutant-General's establishment in England, would give a saving of more than 3,0001. The Staff of the Leeward and Windward islands, and of Gibraltar, he thought dispropor tionate. to the situations in which they were placed. On these a saving of 2,5001. might he effected, and other savings which he pointed out in cunnection with this subject might be realized, amountieg in the whole to 9,0001. The office of the Paymaster-General he did not think neces sary, us the Paymaster had not that controtd over those who were to furnish hilts with accounts which an efficient Officer ought to possess. To Li m it appeared that the Secretary of War might issue his warrants direct, without the intervention or a Paymaster-General. This plan had been act e d upon in Ireland, where an army of ditty Thousand men had been regularly paid without the aid of a Paymaster, and not the smallest corn plaiut had arisen on account of the absence of such an Officer. The Deputy Paymaster who had re tiled, received an allowance of 5471. per annum ; be wished to know why this was, 'when the per son who performed all the duty received no more 'bath 5001 / He objected to the continuance of Paymasters in the lonian Islands and other places abroad at an expellee of 1,7001. per ann. The increased expense of the War Office, which now amounted to 51,0001. per ann., he next noticed. In 1806 the whole establishment, exclusive of Contingencies, consisted of a Deputy Secretary at War anti 11 9 Clerks, whose salaries were alto gether- under 30,0001. In 1819 the number of Clerks had increased to 147, and the salaries from 30,0001. had been augmented till their amount Was 48,0001. He wished to know what made this difference between the expence incurred in 1819 and tuut incurred in 1806, when we were at war in every quarrer of the globe ? By a regulation adopted ie 1803, die Junior Clerks were to re.. teive 80!. per annum, 'and their salaries to be ginduttlly iticiedsetl for twenty years, but never 10 exceed 1501. He wished to know on what principle th e Assistant Examiners, sinc e . em ployed, had received salaries of 2251. and 2501. per, annum I With respect to the Commis sariat Department, be thought a change might be made that would produce considerable bene fi . He wished all contracts made to be sub sumed to the Commanders of Regiments, and by the reforms which be suggested he thought a sav ing might be made of 12,0001. in Great Britain, anti the further saving to be expected in Ireland Inieht bring the total' to 20,0001. The office for examining accounts in errear formerly cost the annual sum of 2,9001. It now cost 2,7001. Thus the charge was ouly 2001. more for the foreign aleeartment of the Army, when numerous . foreign yogis. were in our service, than was now paid ibetely Aar winding up the account. All these Were matters wide; required explanation, and he therefore thought it could not be denied that they Ottght to be referred to a Committee. After iouching on several other topics, he came to no lice the Comptrollers of the Army accounts. — •Prom the 19th Report of the Committee of Fi t:nice, it appeared that, in 1797, when the most active operations were carrying on in every part 'tn the globe,and the Army Extraordinaries amount ed to nearly 6,000,0001., there were two Comptrol lers,with salaries of 11001. each, which, with those 'of the officers under them, were something less than • 4 ,5001. In 1819, when the Army Extraordinaries amounted to little more than one million, there Were three Comptrollers, one with a salary of 2 0001. per annum, and two with salaries of 1,5001. .leach, beside 57 other officers, whose salaries made the charge altogether 1,2501. being an in crease of 8001. over what it was in 1798. He wished to know why this increase had taken place ) ` - -The system of the Military College might, be t hought, be advantageously changed, and an an nual saving effected. The present establishment of the College was unnecessary. These were Petty details, but it was on these that the saving's trere to be made, and these charges, though but .little in themselves, were enormous in their amount. The retrenchments which be should Propose would amount to about 400,0001. per an tun, and this was surely an object. He came • to the Superannuated List. In 1810, a re gelation had been made under which those only were to be superannuated who bad been ten years ' 1 the service, and who were incapable of conti ing longer in it, and to such pensions were to be P'anted not exceeding one-third of what had been t heir full p a y. Notwithstanding this Resolution,an under Secretary at War, who had been but six ~rears. and a half in the service, had, however , Pot on the List, and had received, beside liia other allowances, an additional 10001. per , s "num. In the Foreign Department, one person had served as a Clerk for five years, bad re ed on a pension of 4561. This w.as more than t i General O ffi cer received, who had served in all climates for 30 or 40 years, and wasted his health and his d she • s blood in the cause of his country.— th • " Aimy Medical Department, oue luau bad been superannuated, on an allowance of 8001. per annum, who continued to hold the situation of Physician to the Forces. Another 'person at the Medical Board retired on 6001. per annum, and held the situation of Physician to Chelsea College, which was a sinecure, and thuS he received 11001. of the public money for nothing. A Commissary- General of Musters had retired on 6001. per an- OWN, and held the situation of Secretary to Chel sea Hospital, and thus received annually the sum of 11001. from the Public. The Widow of an Ac countant received 4001. a year. In the Barrack Department of Great, Britain two officers had re tired on salaries of 8001. per anti., who had served hu! 9 years. Besides these, some gentlemen who hod been engaged in making tip the accounts of Gen. Delaney, received 5001. and 6001. a•year on account of that single business. Ought not such abuses as these be inquired into ? He now came to the Barrack Department. For the Barrack Offices there was a charge of 16,0901. Fo,r the alterations and repairs of buildings there was a charge of 53,0001. for Great Britain only.' He was confident that, if an inquiry were instituted, half the barracks now kept rip would be found useless. The tact was, however, that it was use less to recommend to Government ally system of economy whatever. So long as they could retain any thing like patronage in their grasp. 'they w o uld keep it, and they could only be made to change thek plans by the decision of that House. There was no hope of retrenchment, unless that House took the business into its own hands. It was with this view of the subject that he should move for a Select Committee. If he bad fallen into any error, instead of makine captions objec tions to what be had advanced, Ministers, it sin cere in their professions of regard (or economy, would assist him rather than oppose him, and sanction the inquiry, which he contended was necessary. He concluded by moving, That a Se lect Committee be appointed to inquire into the whole Military Expenditure of the Country, and report their opinions thereon to the house. Mr. C. LONG showed the duties of the Pay master General to be duties of importance, and connected with great labour. When lie came into office the accounts were in arrears for 25 years. All these bad been passed, and the ac counts were now in such a train, that all-the home accounts but those of the last year' had been passed also. For the superannuated allowance which had been referred to, he was not respon sible, The Accountant's Widow, who received 4001. per annum, was the widow of au , ac coentant who had held that situation at a time when the situation was one of very considerable importance. 'When the Hon. Member said the Act to which he had alluded had not been com plied with in. the cases of three persons be had mentioned, he might reply to him that it had not only been complied with, but that not one of the three bad received what he might have claimed under it. One had been in the service 50 years, and had not received what ought to have been his allowance, and the other two had not received any thing near what they might have claimed. — He proceeded to spew that Ministers, whatever might be said of their anxiety to preserve their patronage, had of themselves abolished all the Paymasters on foreign stations, but those of Malta, Gibraltar, and the lonian Islands. Lord PALMERSTON had hoped the subject of this night's discussion might have been suffered to rest till Friday. He would, in his reply to the Right Hon. Gentleman, be as short as possible, and if he should not answer him on every topic, the House would rerneniber that the Hon. Member had the advantage cii"eing able to choose his points of attack, on sothe of which it was not to be expected that he would be prepared at the mo ment to give that explanation which might be supplied. The Hon. Gentleman bad commenced his speech by an attack, which he did not think they deserved, on the COMMittees which had sat within the last two years. These he had been pleased to say had done nothing—or, at least, be contended that no good had resulted from their labours : be thought they lied displayed as mach industry, and as sincere a desire to do their duty• as any Committees thit had ever sat. With "re spect to the increase which appeared in our mili tary ,force in the present year over that of the last, he might - safely leave `"the - House to fo'rrn own opinion. If the events'of the last-year(which were known to the House) were not sufficient to convince them that the increase was necessary, he was sure that no argument that lie could use would bring conviction to their minds. .The House, however, must have greatly changed their opinions if they could think the increase which had taken place other titan necessary. The Hon. Gentleman had given it as his opinion, that by the means which he had suggested, a total saving of 400,0001. might be effected annually. He could not meet the Hon, Member at that time with a calculation opposed to his ; but if he might judge from the statements he bad heard from him be fore, be shonld not be inclined to estimate the saving! at any such amount. The question was not whether a saving would be effected by the arrangements be bad suggested, but whether its importance would not he more than counter balanced by the change introduced by that mode of organization of which he was the advo cate. The Hon. Member had said, if the people of England had exerted themselves to preserve tranquillity as the people of Scotland had done, there would have been no occasion for that in crease of the army which had been thought ne cessary. Stating this he wronged the people of England. The country gentlemen had every where exerted themselves to preserve 'the public peace, and the remark of the Hon. Gentleman was over thrown even by his own statements. He had re. presented Scotland to have put on foot a Yeo manry 3000 strong. If in this estimate he was correct, to make up the 25,000 yeomanry in Great Britain, England could have no fewer than 22,000. Colonel Darns said, he had remarked that there were only 554 yeomanry in Lancashire. Lord PALMERSToN replied, that the number sta tioned in a particular district could be no argu ment against him. Various circumstances might make the Government anxious to have more in one place than another, and it was not Lair from the number in. any particular district to aSsuine that there was any thing lik - eipatity to be charged on the people at large. But tltv Meatber proposed the sweeping measure of discharging all the dis mounted men. In England it had'been thought desirable to diminish the expense of the cavalry, by dismounting a number of men in each regi ment. Bit instead of viewing this as a measure of economy, the Hon. Member proposed the fur ther reform of discharging all these men. If this were determined upon, the next time the subject came before the House, they might expect to hear the Hon• Gentleman expatiating on the absurdity of having as many horses as men in the cavalry regiments, and proposing that some of the men should he dismounted, and these he might subse intently recommend to be discharged, and thus he might go on till we had no cavalry remaining. He skewed that the cavalry were necessary to be kept up to maintain the public peace, and to protect the revenue, and the opinion expressed by the lion. Member as to the propriety of adopting another system of organization of our army, did not appear to him to establish any ground on which Parliament could proceed to decide for the recommended change. The Honourable Member objected to the waggon train, yet he ad mitted that a great part of it was employed in re moving the cavalry baggage. If diminished, the efficiency of the cavalry must be diminished, as troop horses must be employed, or horses must be hired, whenever a removal of baggage was ne cessary. This would not be desiraole, and it was the duty of Government to provide for its remo val in the most efficient manner. With respect to the saving of -60 or 70,0001. which the Honour able Gentleman thought might be made on the infantry, he was inclined to think that no such saving would result from the adoption of his plan, while the diminished efficiency of that branch of our force would infinitely more than counterbalance any saving that might be made; and unless a certain force were kept op during peace, on which a larger force could be formed on time commencement of a new war, the Govern !tient would he exposed to the greatest embar rassment. The change which the Honourable Gentleman wished for with respect to the Guards was in direct opposition to Mr. Burke's plan for separate issues and separate establishments, and the recruiting system be showed could not be changed without great injury to the public ser vice. The Riding School at Pimlico had been established not merely to instruct the cavalry in the lance exercise but to introduce that uniformity into the cavalry exercise which had been wanting. Here men had been sent from every part of the country, that they might be instructed so as to be come riding-masters themselves, and this was found of great importance, and had much improved our Cavalry discipline. The Hon. Gentleman had expressed • surprise that the establishment of the Adjutant-General in Ireland was larger titan that of the Adjutant-General in England. This, he chewed, arose from the numerous subdivisions of the meth Such also was the case of the number of officers, employed in the Leeward and Windward Islands, and at Gibraltar. The General Officer at Tobago was also the commander of the forces in several other islands ; and in each of the islands the General Officer was Governor of the Island as well as commander of the forces. Upon the whole, if he were to follow the Hon. Gentleman through all his statements, he was confident that the 400,0001. which he thought might be saved would be reduced to a very small slim. The amount of the Salaries, Btc. at the War Office, which in 1819 was 48,0001. having been, as the Hon. Gen tleman stated, under 30,0001. in 1806, arose from this circumstance ; the establishment bad never been augmented in proportion to its increase of business, and an immense accumulation was the consequence, which had not yet been disposed of so as to admit of any reduction of the present j establishment. He did not think the Honourable Gentleman's plan fur settling the accounts, and issuing the payments of the Army, would be se 'conducive to time public interest as that now acted upon, For the period from 1811 to 1816, no fewer than 1286 accounts had passed the Board, -and only 45 remained from various causes unset tled. For 1817,113 accounts had been settled, and 21, frOm serious causes remained unsettled. The accounts of 1818 were now under examina tion ; those of 1819 were not yet due, It would from this statement be seen, that so far from there being at present an arrear of accounts as former ly, time whole 'business of the current period (as it was called),avas completely adjusted down to the end of the year 1816. The accounts of Agents were quite distinct from those of Paymasters. — When disallowances were made in the ac counts of Agents, they were either paid into time Bank of England, or set off against them on the payments they had to receive from the Pay-Office. The Hon. Gentleman was for going back to the old system in doing away the present establishment of a Commissariat Department ; proposing to supply the Army with meat and 'bread through the Commanding Officers of Regi ments. This arrangement, he was convinced, would entail a considerable increase of expense. From time experience which had been had of it, no arrangement had ever been made which had beep so beneficial as the Commissariat ; and, indeed,, it was.- obvious that contracts made on a great scale, as by this Depart ment, must be more economical than where each Regiment went to the butcher in the town where it should happen to be stationed. — There could be no surety to time butcher, in the latter case, that a great part of what he provided might not be thrown upon his hands, as a consea qnence of time removal of time regiment ; whereas in dealings with the Commissariat the contractor was sure of his supply, at least for some mouths. With respect to the Hon. Gentleman's objections as to the present establishment of the Quarter master-General's Department, he had to observe, that it was as far as possible on the same footing as in 1792, with time single exception of the Li, thographic press, which he believed had been pro ductive of a saving to the public, and was certainly highly serviceable in the particular part of time ser vice its which it was employed. With regard to the Comptroller's Office, as well as his own, it was to be remarked, that the business of examining accounts arising from a war, did not end with the war itself. it was not till after war bath finish ed, that. the accompts belonging to it were pro dticed. On the head of the Military College, the Hon. Gentleman had allowed that Great reduc lions had been made, but still not enough. The House would see when they looked at the papers before them on the subject, that an ar rangement was to take place on the 24th of June next, for consolidating the Senior and Junior Colleges. By this arrangement the bead of the Senior Department would be abolished, and many Professors dispensed with. On the subject of the number of Cadets admitted annually into the Establishment, it appeared that the total number of vacancies for -Ist commissions, in the year 1818, was 207. In the year 1819 there were 182. Allowing, therefore, that there were 200 commissions annually, he was sure the House would not consider that 70 new Cadets in each year were too many. The Honourable Gentle man made another objection with respect to the manner ofereating the Cadets. They were only boys, he said, and ought to be treated as boys. It was necessary that they should have some persons to instruct them in discipline ; and whether these persons were called by military names or not, he thought was of little moment. By the new arrangement, which was about to be effected, the Professors who at present attended only for two hours a day, were to give their at tendance for a period of six hours in summer and hve in winter. That he thought was as great a length of time as any man could be expected to give his mind, so as to be useful. The Honourable Gentler - nap also had thought fir to say, that it was not necessary to instruct officers before they joined the army, asserting that in ge neral they had forgot all they had learned at College in less than two years. The Honour able Gentleman, he believed, had himself been at that College, and he hoped that he could in his own case contradict his own argument. He trusted that he was not an instance of thet rapid forgetfulness. At all events, he hoped the obser vation of the Hon. Gentleman on this point was not true. His conviction was, on the contrary, that the young men from this establishment, by their general conduct, had shown the advantages the army had derived from it. He could also state, in opposition to the Honourable Gentle man's opinion, that the highest authorities in the army thought that this Establishment was necessary to a nation which thought it necessary to have an army at all. If we had a regular army at all, it was evident we ought to have a good one ; and we could not have a good one unless the officers were properly instructed in their duty. The consequence of there not being an efficient school for military men in this coun try, would be the driving them into foreign coun tries for that instruction. And it deserved the most serious consideration, as to what would be the evils attendant upon such a line. He requested of the House to reflect on the consequences of sending young men into foreign schools at that time of life when the mind was being formed into a stateof manhood. He wished British officers to be British, not only in name, or in birth, but in !belt feelings and conduct. lo reply to the Honour able Gentleman's remarks on the retired allow ances, be begged to remind him, that the alloW ances he specified were made previous to the passe log of the Act to which be said they were con trary. He had been in many errors that night ; and, amongst those, was his interpretation of the Act in question. Many of the retired allowances he complained of bad been granted to persons whose offices had been altogether abolished ; whilst the Act only ortlered that a certain liue should be observed in granting allowanceaeo offi cers retiring from ill health, or otherwise., when another took their place. He believed he had gone through all• the points of the lion. Gentle man's speech, and be thought he bad succeeded in shewing that no ground had beets laid before the House for gran ing him a Committee.. Nothing, he contended, was more simple, than for any Member to slew sufficient reason for being grant ed a Committee ; but the lion. Gentleman had entirely failed in this, It the mover could sheor that the question he desired to investigate was difficult to be comprehended, and that he could throw light on the Committee, or that he expecte ed the Committee would throw light on hint, then there was something like a cause for granting a Committee. But the subject was sufficiently clear of understanding. Commissioners had already been appointed, who had examined it in all its details, having sat several years for that purpose. The Honourable Gentleman, per haps, thought that every turn of the spade might turn up some venerable fragment of old abuses; but he would find that every stone bad beets already turned. He repeated, that no sufficient parlia mentary ground,had been given for granting the Committee which had been proposed to the House. It appeared to him that the Hon. Mover had so mistaken the facts, and the grounds of his con elusion, that be should be sorry if the House gave him any encouragement. He was the last peruser tO treat lightly any topics connected with the dis tresses of the country; but it ought to be remem bered by the Hon. Gentleman (Colonel Davies), that the burdens of the country, at this moment, were the consequence of that struggle which we had maintained single-handed against the concen trated lorces of the civilized world. He knew that the object of that struggle was not military glory ; nor was it for acquisition of territory ; nor even from the more excusable motive of as setting our rights—he knew it was a struggle for our very existence. It should always be remembered that the burdens eve at present laboured under was the price we bad agreed to pay for our deliverance. —(Hear, hear.) Mr. Ceectleve.olaserted, that from the speech sit the Noble Lord (Palmerston) it would appear that his Hon. Friend 'was contending for souree. thing dishonourable. All, however-, that his Hon. Friend had .urged upon the House oo this occasion was the propriety of - looking into the burthetis of the people, its order to see if it were not possible to alleviate ttiem. It was a question at all events, whether by an inquiry.they might • not make these burthens more tolerable to the nation, by showing tilem that there was no re lief for them. His HOn. Priced had taken a la borious antlosefol task upon himself in bringing these - aecountsebeforeebe attention of the House; • and he had shown, h ow a saving of stone limo sends might be effected. The Noble Lurd (I'.) said, that it was - easy to show reasons to the • House why a Committee, should be appointed.