The Sun. — London, England, 1842-07-27 00:00:00

, j it , - 1 -44;4: itt Afr qtmv • )6 • to tY/ , Seveh o' Cloch. AMEN ATION OF DR. NPJDOUALL. GREENWICH POLICE' COURT, (THIS DAY,) lir. JEREMY, the Magistrate, took his seat on the binich, and having disposed of several of the night charges. 1)r. l'etßr Murray M'Douall was placed at the bar, - who ,stated that he lived at Walworth, and was a medical man B: efore the charge was gone into, the defendant pro te,tol police interfering- with a legally con stituted, laoeting, against their refusing bail for his ap p,-nuance last night, and against the competency of the tr:honal. Se eerintendeet Mallen -deposed—about eight e'else% Iss: night I was at the Broadway, and in copse- ef information I received, I went to the Dissent :,ne; '!mise4 Ifigle - street. A party of police had been t hese ti eleas (stile chapel. There were about 1,300 .pursons - outside the chapel. There was a stream of per- Sss going towards. the Broadway. I was told that :Mail:all. was gone towards the Broadway. I went there. There was a great crowd. Arriving at the I;ronl s wav, I übserved M'Douall elevated ou the tatme, - an:l - addressing a crowd, which was con- t i Ily increasing.. The footway was impeded, and the earsiage-way was full of persons. I heard M‘l)ottali say, "The tyrant aristocracy of the country who are trampling upon the rights of the poor men." The words were to that effect, and I believe they were . his . very words. I heard persons in the erowd say the police had no business there, and They shied serve them - as they did at Kentish t mss ; what chance would they stand if they were to set open them. This was said, by a . person in a flannel jacket not known in the neighbourhood. I approached M‘Donall and said, this is not a legally convened meeting. I apprehend a disturbance of the peace, and you s mest desist. There must have been upwards of 2.000-nrisams present at the time. It was rather more iken half-past eight in the evening. I told M'Douall I . ‘v:Ss - 'superintendent of pike, and he must come down. telt! him I took plum. myself the responsibility of inters pt ing - the proceediaes ' s. He said let me announce it to the - meeting. I said No, you had better , come down. down. I think some slight force was used. I , siid to him, if you will promise to go away peaceably I eesznit you to go.. I directed the police to Make a .tnuroterh fare for him. He remained, and said he would . les long as he thought proper. I directed him to sss he taken. to the station-house. There was consider :, able excitement among the people there at the time. s.They • hissed, groaned, and clamoured against the An immense concourse of people followed us to the station. Those expressions were continued all the nay to the station. There were several attempts to rescue the prisoner from the custody of the officers who bad charge of him. Many of those present were strangers to the place. The conduct of the people was calculated to excite terror. I heard many persons express appre hensions for the puhlic peace. During eleven years' ex perience I have never seen an assemblage in this neigh bourhood so mischievously inclined. The place where they %vers., assembled was the Dover-road. Cross-examined by the Defendant-1 am aware there ssa: a mesting announced to take place at the chapel by a riararti. fdecline giving an opinion as to the legality , e: l 7.Plegalitv of that meeting. I did not apprehend u dis - im i ssise of the public peace from a meeting in the chapel. The placard stated that the meeting was to j!,)lsiticr the alarming distress of. the country. Mr. JEREMY—It was to be supposed that the meeting w0..1(i be of a religious character from its being in a chapel. Tit following handbill was then produced On Tuesday, July 26, 1842. -= cruicF. Esq., the eloquent advocate of the clainas of Humanity, will deliver a LECTURE, at iigh-street Ateeting-house, Deptford, on the present plsrming Distress in the Country. The Chair will be taken at 7 o'clock precisely. - Several Gentlemen (Delegates to the Conference Low ; tittle.. in Load n) will attend, and make a state -Intix the deplorable destitution of the population in , :ir io n ; parts of the. country. attendance of all classes is respectfully invited." erms-e.:amined.—l do not know Mr. Thomson. I am unable to say 'whether he is a parson or not. Ile is, I believe, concerned with the Anti-Corn-law Conference. I considered, from what I knew of the minister of the ...impel, that the meeting in the chapel could not lead to disturbance. I accidentally heard there was a dis- - surbance there, and went there. Ido not know of any rer , ou being in custody for anything that took place in ins , chapel. I did not hear that the meeting was ad- • jourited from the eimpel. I heard that Dr. INl'Douall was aticatt to address the meetin g . The persons, from whom I karncd that, seemed desirous that you should :address them. There are posts in the broadway, separating the open space from the street. tr. .11;at31Y—I believe it is enclosed with posts, and p arsons are permitted to put stalls there. Dr.ll'Dottall—l wish to prove that the Broadway is ti imNie ray, and that the householders have a right to uto•m - there. Mr.,.IERF.m.v.--That will make it rather against you, as you would he obstructing a public thoroughfare. Cross-c-xamination resumed—Mr. Hind told me he was alarmed—that the thing was serious.' I never - Wd you I would knock you down. The height is sb. - . feet. You Were assisted down by the police. The police present. Dr. M‘Douall—l desire. that the witnesses may' with- Ara w. h. JEREM 1,7 —Let the witnesses on both sides leave the Court. The witnesses then left the Cottrt. - • The cross-examination resumed—lt is usual to have :a crowd following a person when be is arrested. There rc.rtainly was a much greater crowd last night than on Aoy other occasion. You were not in custody when you came ,off 'the pump. I have no recollection of your saying to me, " Take it coolly." I made a thoroughfare for you vac y•-iste enough to enable you to get away. I believe you sa id you should please yourself as to which way you tvent. I Said, "Oh ! you won't go—then arrest him." 1. did not perceive you make any. resistance. I did not sear of any policeman being struck. I saw but few A•;: town,. and no children. A great part of those who sat 'founded you were the scum of our parish. .lEirt3sr —Oh ! Mr. Mallilieu, you should not snake ‘l ,-;e of such language. • D r . At 'Donalt—Did you fear that scum, as you call it ? - Ara: linen—Am Ito answer that question ? This may go on all day. 3 - E i t .y.stv—Then it must go on all day, or for se vm-1.1 days—the line of cross-examination appears to be f a h: one. • • Crossi-examination.—During the course of the evening bait was offered. f refused it. The person who offered bail offered tor escort you a considerable way home. I re fused it on my own responsibility. I said that in the excited state of the town I could not discharge you. " There was no 'damage done to property or person in - Deptford. that L . -know of, last night. Two persons otrered bail. I should have taken it under ordinary dr ,ennistances. One said he offered it from respect for your - I ,inviples, and another because he thought you a well. meaniitg man. Bail was first offered about ten o'clock. \tr. John Wade—l am 'a builder and shopkeeper, liv ing in Deptford. I am a trustee of the independent ( 1,41. I drew up the hand-bill produced, and it was by my direction, in concurrence with the Rev. .1. Pulleit,,the minister. It was not fur any discussion Oat meeting w4 s called. Its purpose was to excite sym lathy for the distressed, but not for an immediate sub - scri tion• s ubseriplion had, been forwarded before the p (queen's letter came out. It was to hear a lecture on the distress -of the country. The chapel was pretty full at seven o'clock, when I entered it. There was a little dis turbance at the commencement of the meeting. Some person' , who were strangers, wished to speak and enter • .iWo a discussion, which was contrary to the object of the t i meeting. The person announced a s lecturer did not ,come, but another person was asked to supply the , The disturbance passed off, and Mr. g a ylor proceeded with his lecture, and having ivneluded it sat dwn. There was a little dis tHeiginc, and the minister of the chapel dissolved Th e " flee ti ng . There were about 1,000 persons pres - ent. After the minister bad dissolved the meeting -the piaci , was cleared. The people walked out without nny disturbance.', The meeting seperated peaceably. There were pat* there. I think they were sent for by any brother. I understood from him that some persons jhad attempted to get possession of the platform at the beginning of the meeting, and that they had been sent for 5111 00n 2qu en ce. I saw the pollee remonstrate with some ner..ons who were disturbing the meeting, and endeavour lag. to get upon the . plattorm. I saw Dr. M'Douall He was not invited. He was one of the audience. I sa►improper in his conduct. The Rev. Mr. 31 otOng ram dissolved the meeting, by saying I dissolve this meeti os ng. , exam ig NI by Mr. M‘Dottall—The meeting aa Crs not et attired to `She frequenters of the chapel. Alll s l classs. were invites 40 a ttend the lecture. Any person was at. lib e rty to come in. 'lt was an assembly to hear a leztcre. There was a - _. Chairman,, but he was not he chair as a matter. of elect ad. The minister wok t course. Mr. Thompson and Mr. Taylor were. both strang :ors. I stood beside you on the platform. ,I saw ..netlfo ig improper in your conduct whatever: I heard york 9 Ay that a discussion should take pli:ce out of doors. S did.. not hear- the Chairman propose any adjournment.. Thert 1: was no right to adjourn the meeting. The meet int.7, hal not the power to elect a Chairman. No reso- Jui!lon was proposed. It was an invitation for the mi lli, ter and trustees to come and hear a l ecture. I know ho . tiii k - t about the meeting on the Broad wa y . I could n 0", gut 1-ar from your. gestures that you sere likely to 61. _ bycute.:. breach of the peace. Mr. Taylor was invited :me. Dr. Al'Douall, and Mr. Taylor and myself wa Pr ed away arm in arm. the r. Davis . a lal --- led.l am a reporter. I was present at treporter. ra Immediately after the minister had chair : taken the disturbance commenced' by a ze r t x' • ,11 in the gallery rising and proposing that a general should tak m e i ß i c a e tel as the lecturer had not Ziseti .lion areivt le. There was i one it , a inery dupepropose at great uproar. Some a at a ki d n i g tte rn b sl e tould take the ch-rtirf and the oar attempt was made to e ame very get on the table by a heat. An There was a violent resistarce to I iers(i a in the P';"v qt„,,, lion was put as to a working man taking - ghat.' The \ :. , as impossible to say if it was carried 4 'ha chair, but it put by the minister, but by some one 3t mint. It was not, iw: the body of - t t i ., - chapel. There was struggling bee for Jive or six minutes. During th em the two. partie4., three policeman entered the the - disturbance two- at' ed to increase the disturbance. shape!, which rather self heard.,a cry of - they have _§eulAtrilitil44, person,_-peinting-40. 'The:- minister, said, -.".1s this the Christianity of Jesus Christ,.to send for men to rob us of our liberty ?" There were. cries raised of " Turn the police out," and, on the other side, of "Turn out those Chartists." The clamour became general ; more police arrived ; Mr. Taylor got on the table, and something like order having been restored, he addressed the meeting at some length. After that another person got up in the body of the chapel, and began to speak. - The confusion was renewed. The minister - of the chapel got on the table, and declared the meeting was dissolved. Cheers were proposed for the Charter, and for F. O'Con nor, and for . Dr. M'Douall, which were given, and the cries of " Adjourn" followed, and I left the chapel soon after. When the persons were passing out I saw Dr. M'Douall on the table, attempting to speak. Mr. J. Wade stated that the chapel had not been granted for a discussion but for the purpose of having a lecture. I went to the Broadway, and saw about 600 people round the pump, and some young man was hold ing forth. The crowd increased to about 2,000. I saw Dr. M'Douall on the pump, but could not hear what he said. 1 left by the nine o'clock train for London. Cress-examined.—l am a reporter for the morning papers. I did not hear you make any observation before some one had proposed that there should be a general discussion. I came there as a perfect stranger. I saw nothing to alarm me there. It appeared to me to be a mere trial of strength between two parties. The object of Mr. Taylor's lecture was partly to show that the repeal of the Corn-laws would relieve the distress of the country. I have been at many public meetings, but I never saw so much disturbance at any meeting. Wm. Shvttleworth, R 183.—1 was ordered to the Chapel last evening at eight o'clock. 1 saw a man strike Mr. G. Wade, who was sitting under the pnlpit. The man afterwards pushed to go into the seat. 1 took the man into custody. I took him to the station-house. Mr. J. Wade's brother came up to the station-house, and said that Mr. G. Wade refured to charge him, upon which he was released. Police Sergeant Smith.—l was sent for to the Chapel, and found Mr. Taylor speaking. The Chapel was then quiet. I left a party of constables at the door, and re tired to the station. Shortly after eight o'clock saw females come to the station crying, and one nearly faint ing, and said that they were killing each other in High street. They were in a great fright. I returned to the Chapel, and found the place in a complete uproar, and persons struggling and pushing. Some one desired me to have the place cleared, and,l cleared it. Several of the seats had been broken down. I afterwards went to tho Broadway. I heard the people gay that M'Douall was gone there. (The witness then corroborated the testimony of Superintendent Mallilieu as` to the occur rences in the Broadway-which preceded and accompanied the apprehension of the defendant.) On M'Douall ; ap pearing to be reluctant to come down from the pump, I seized one leg, and, another constable seized the other, and we partly pulled and partly assisted him down. He refused to leave when required by Mr. Malliliec, saying it was a public place, and he had a right to be there. He persisted in remaining where he was, and I took him into custody. The mob was violent; calling out to rescue him. One person laid hold of Mr. Mallalieu, calling out at the same time " Rescue ! Put down the police !" I left Dr: M-Douall in charge of other constables, and took the man, whose name is Macslow, into custody. The crowd filled up the Market-place, and obstructed the carriage -road. Cross-eXamined.—lt was before the meeting in Broad way that the females came to the station-house., If you had requested me to assist you to keep the peace in the chapel, I should have done so. You used no resistance after you were arrester?, but you exhibited-a sullen re solution not to go away. I think you told the super intendent to take it coolly. Dr. ll‘Douall said be should call twenty or thirty wit nesses to prove that they lived in the neighbourhood of the Broadway, and were not alarmed. Mr. JEREMY—That may be. You may call ell the 2,000 persons who it appears agree with you in opinion to say they were not alarmed. It is a matter of nerve. Mr. Mallilieu was not alarmed, but the question is if there was anything to create alarm in the minds of the ordinary run of per sons. If there was, the assembly of such a crowd was a misdemeanour, or, at all events, a circumstance to war rant the interference of the police. Sergeant Lovell, It 15, was called, and, after describing the state of things at the chapel when the meeting broke up, said that Mr. Wade said such conduct ought not to be pursued in the chapel, and that it must be cleared ; upon which Dr. M‘Douall got on the platform, and said they should have a meeting in the open air. Cross-examined—l heard no motion for adjourning the meeting proposed. Mr. Hugham, a watchmaker, was at the chapel last night. Ile described the proceedings in the chapel us they have already been given in the evidence of former witnesses, but stated nothing to implicate I)r. M'Douall. In his way home witness went through the Broad way, and saw a mob collected there, and Dr. M'Douall mounted on a pump. Mr. Mallilieu, and the police then came up. Mr.' Mallilieu told I)r. M`Douall that this was not a regular meeting, and that he could not speak. The police assisted him down. Dr. M'1)ouall was asked to go quiety home. and he refused to go, he said he should go when he pleased. The police made way for him to go on. Ile refused to go. He was then taken into custody. Wit ness accompanied them to the station-house, and heard remarks made on the conduct of the police. Mr. JEREMY—Do you think if there had been no in terference by the police with the meeting that the dis turbance would have subsided ?—Witness : I think not. It the police had not interfered the disturbance would have been greater, and would have increased. Cross-examined—The tone of Mr. Taylor's address had reference to the Corn-laws. I heard two or three persons standing at the doors on the pavement say that it was a shame such a meeting should be -held. I was not alarmed myself. "These expressions were used before you were taken into custody. I saw two or three scuffles, as you were being conveyed to the station house. Several of the persons who - were scuffling, were violent in the chapel. This closed the case on the part of the police. Mr. JEREMY said he would then give his opinion on the case, which might perhaps save some time. If Dr. M'Dowall had any evidence to controvert the facts of the case, he would hear them ; but it appeared to him that the necessary consequence of the conduct of the defendant was to cause a disturbance of the public peace. He did not say that the defendant intended it, but it was a necessary consequence of his conduct. No one had a right to go to a meeting called for a specific purpose, and, nolens miens, to attempt to intro duce some other subject, and to eject the chairman from the chair. That was conduct of all others likely to create a disturbance, and, if the police had not luckily interfered, it would have led to some affray. It appeared that the defendant had been holding an illegal meeting at an illegal place, and at an unseasonable hour, and the least that he could do would be to hold deft ndant to bail to keep the peace and be of good behaviour for six months. • If anything like a previous concert to interrupt the meeting at the chapel could have been proved, he should have felt it is duty to send him to trial fora misdemeanour. The defend:4lA then gave security, himself in SCI, and two sur9ties in 25/. each, to be of good behaviour for six months. The defendant was then discharged. John Dowling of Chelsea, bricklayer, Conrad Warren, a coach-maker's apprentice, living at 4, Waterloo-place, J. Marston, and Thomas Vardy, charged with attempting to rescue P. M. M‘Douall from the police, were ordered to find bail for their appearance in the Court to morrow morning to have the charge investigated. The Court was then adjourned. • Dr. M'Douall, on leaving the court, was loudly cheered by the crowd outside. The court was crowded to excess, and we beg to return our thanks to the worthy Magistrate for his kind and courteous attention in affording us every accommodation in his power. COAL MARKET.-(THIS DAY.) Ships arrived since last market .day, 6. e. d. Chariot to l6 6 Chester Main Morrison's Hartley Nelson's West Hartley l7 0 New Tantield Moor l3 9' Old Tanfield .....«....» l3 9 South Pontop Tangeld Moor • lB 6 R. d WallslEnd Helton 1:0 6 Walk End Lambton CO 3 Walls End Morrison Walls End Stewart's tO 9 Walls End Whitwell l9 0 Walls End Hartlepool Walls End Bengt' • Hall '2o Walls End Adelaide Walls End Barrett ls U Walls End Brown's Deanery 15 0 Wale Ei.d Hopter l7 ti Walls End Seymour Tees l7 Wahl: Fr.d lees . Blythe l4 6 Cowpen Howard's Netherton Main 17 0 Wylam Walls End Killingworth Walls End Nor' huroberland 17 0 Walls End Perkins l6 6 Walls End ltiddelPs lB 0 Walls End Belmont W. E. lisaddyll'sHettou :Al 9 Walls End Haswell. STATE OF TRADE. (From the Manchester Guardian of this day.) MANCHESTER.—The remarks made in various quarters upon the account of the market which we gave last Wednesday, has induced us to make very careful inquiries on the subject in the best quarters to which we have access ; and the result of those in quiries convinces us that, with the exception of one trifling and incidental statement (which was not made in any positive terms, and which has already been cor rected), that account Was perfectly well founded. We are quite aware, that upon this point there are considerable, and, we believe, very honest differences of opinion, arising probably, in great measure, from the extent to which men allow their judgments to be warped by those political feelings which at the present time are brought to bear strongly even upon ques tions of a merely mercantile character. With po litical matters, however, we have nothing • to do here ; and we should have been undeserving of the confidence which the public have placed in our weekly statements on this subject, if we had permitted any extraneous considerations what ever to in terfere with the way in which we re cord the state of this important market. With these few cbservations, which circumstances appeared to require at our hands, we proceed to mention the state of business yesterday. In the yarn market there was a fair business doing on Russian account, and a little more demand for numbers and qUalities suitable for the East India market. The German buyers, on the contrary, have somewhat relaxed in their operations ; and th e and other market was not anima ted, thou g h p rices c ontinue per for skirtings, continues tiu without fweicdtelyelflortbms. suitable lhe demandfor r . shipping, any material change from last week. The advance upon inferior shirtings, which we stated to have been then demanded by the manufacturers, but not gene rally acceeded to by the buyers, May now be con sidered as fully established; and, in some cases, an ad vanee of id. to lid. has alsO been obtained upon the superior qualities. In domestics, - how ever, there is .446.1.441Koawinent in price. - ?or -printing - cioihs-; - --whieli ilave•suffered a long and most severe depression; there has been 4 little -more inquiry within thelast few days ; and parties willing to accept the very lowest prices that have been current, have found no difficulty in obtaining them, especially for 66-reed cloth, which is in rather better demand than the superior qualities. On the whole, we may state—and, we believe, without incurring any danger of the contradiction given to our statements last week—that there is, generally ipeak ing, more firmness in the market, and a more gene ral feeling of confidence, both amongst manufacturers and dealers, than has prevailed for a number of week's past ; and we are glad to find that this feeling is not confined to the Manchester market, but, as far as we can learn, pervades the Manufacturing and mercantile classes generally. ROCHDALE FLANNEL MARKET, MONDAY, JULY 25.—There has been a duller market to-day than Ive have had for some time ; but few buyers have been in the market, and a very limited number of pieces sold. Prices are, as formerly, very low. In wools there has been very little doing at any prices. ELECTION COMMITTEE. (THIS DAY.) IPSWICH. The Committee met again this morning at the usual hour, P. M. Stewart, Esq., in the chair. Mr. Kingslake resumed his address ; after which Mr. Austin rose on behalf of the sitting Members ; and at four o'clock the Committee adjourned till to • morrow. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. (THIS EVENING.) HOUSE OF COMMONS. The SPEAKER tool: the Chair shortly before Four o'Clock. Mr. B. HUGHES presented a petition from Car narvon against the St. Asaph and Bangor Prefermmt Bill. Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD presented a petition from Samuel Gordon, of Aungier-street, Dublin, which states that the just and humane prin ciple, that the Irish poor are entitled to be fed on the soil of their birth, has been violated by the Irish Poor-law Oct, and diverted into schemes of building prisons called workhouses, where. no work is to be done. That the English public are deceived by the reports of the Commissioners into the belief that the Irish poor are relieved, whilst, in truth, the CoMmissioners devour to 1r great extent those funds, in the support of their own establishments, which ought to be applied to the use of the poor, who are not relieved at ail under the present system. The petitioner prayed that-the 'Commissioners should be abolished, and that in their place a Board of Auditors should 'be appointed, whose duty should be limited to the auditing of the accounts of the Local Beards of Guardians. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from Mr. Cleave and Mr. Harris against any 8-, ant in favour of Mr. Hullah's system of musical education, without inquiry into thal of Mr. Mainzer. Dr. NICHOLL presented a petition from Cardiff against the truck system. Mr. O'CO.NNELL presented a petition from Bungay, complaining of the grievances under which Roman Catholics laboured. COPYRIGHT OF DESIGNS BILL. - The Report on the Copyright of Designs Bill, was postponed till Friday next. music. toit. THE MILLION. Mr. ACLAND presented a petition from a gen tleman of independent fortune; named Turner, stating, that he had anticipated the efforts now made to in struct the people in singing, not asking for any pecuniary reward, but praying that any grant of the public money might not be applied to any particular person or plan, but to the advancement of musical knowledge generally. NOTICES OF MOTION.—PARLIAMENTARY REFORM, Mr. S lIA RMA N CRAWFORD gave notice that, early next session, he should move for leave to bring in a Bill to extend the Parliamentary Suffrage, and to make other alterations in the Election Laws, with a view to effect a full, fair, and free representa tion ;of the people in the Commons' House of Par liament. LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND.) Mr. S. CRAWFORD also gave notice that, early next cession, he should move for a Select Committee to inquire into the state of the law of Landlord and Tenant in Ireland; also, the system of letting lands— the nature and duration of tenures—and the propor tion which the rent bears to :the gross produce in different districts of Ireland. 1 . 11. E strw,... toN. : llo**, ..:triti*ii§-4:Li.i_ THE CHARTIST LECTURERS. Mr. T. DUNCOMI3E gave notice that to-morrow he should move for a humble Address to her Majesty, praying her to take into consideration the case of John Mason, and the six other individual confined in Stam ford gaol, with a view to their immediate discharge. He did also move for the names of all persons who had been appointed to offices under the Board of Stamps and Taxes since the Ist of September last. (BRIBERY AT ELECTIONS. Mr. ROEBUCK gave notice that to-morrow he should Move three resolutions to the following effect : First, that. if the persons proved to have been guilty of the practices investigated by the Committee of In quiry into election proeeedings should escape without punishment l 'it would tend to bring this House into contempt ; secondly, that the said practices were a violation of the liberties of the people, and of the rules of the House; thirdly, that it appeared from ' what had taken place with regard to the elections at Nottingham, Reading, Ipswich, Harwich, Lewes, Penryn, and Falmouth, that the present laws were insufficient to protect the voter, and that there fore Mr. Speaker be instructed that no writ do issue to• fill up any vacancy in the representation of those boroughs till further legislative measures had been taken on the subject. LAW COURTS (IRELAND) BILL. Mr. LITTON gave notice of his intention to move certain amendments on going into Committee on this Bill. SHEIL gave notice that he should move a clause to be inserted in the Bill. BRIBERY AT ELECTIONS BILL. Mr. C. BULLER moved that the Order of the Day for going into Committee on the Bribery at Elections (No. 2) Bill be read, on which Mr. MACKISINON rose to move that the Bill be re-committed that day six months. The Bill con taihed two principles which he conceived ought not to be admitted, which principles it had not been in his power to contest before the Committee ; he, there fore, thought it right to state his objections to those principles before the Speaker left the Chair. He (Mr. M'Kinnon) owed his seat in that House to the local and personal influence he possessed in his neighbourhood, and the only danger he could incur with respect to losing his seat, would be by some stranger coming forward and bribing the constituency, and thereby depriving him of that influence which returned him to that House. He said, for the pur pose of satisfying the House, that he had no interest of a personal nature in the remarks he was about to make. The principles of the Bill which he con tended against, were those which militated, first against the common statute law of the land, and next, against the privileges of the House. He objected particularly to the" 15th clause, which gave a right to the Committee to examine Members of Parliament, or other persons, on their oaths, as to their own criminality. The principle of that clause was contrary to the spirit of the statute law. Was it in accordance with the importance of the subject to alter the statute law by a side wind—by a clause in a Bill to prevent bribery at elections instead of a measure being boldly brought forward, having for its professed object the altering of the statute law ? The next principle which he militated against, was that which provided that a Commission should be ap pointed, consisting of three Peers and four Members orParliament, to inquire into certain cases of bribery. He wished seriously to call the attention of the House to the importance of that clause. This clause was of vast importance, as it altered the customs of Parlia ment. The appointment of that Commission was vested in the Crown, and that was placing it in the Minister of the day. He did not say his Right Honourable Friend would do so, as they all knew his fairness ; but supposing they had a Minister who was determined by any violence to prevent his opponents sitting in that House. Supposing such a Minister found the Hon. Member for INlontrose and the Hon. Member for Finsbury an annoyance— (Laughter)—and supposing he wished to abate the nuisance--(Laughter)—he would get up a little bit of bribery in the borough of Montrose or th e borough of Finsbury, and a petition would be pre sented to the House of Commons, and the House of Commons being unable to investigate the busi ness, a Commission would be appointed.—(Hear.) The Commission might he a year making its report, so that a Member might be kept two years from his seat. By this Commission they made a Board of Record the judge of their privileges, and of all they held most dear. They formed it out of three Peers, one of whom was to be the Chairman, and four Mem bers of that House, all appointed by the Minister of the day. took for a moment at the absurdity of that arrangement. They denied a Peer the right of voting for a Member of Parlia ment, they resisted his interference with their privi leges, and yet by a singular inconsistency they wanted now to make a commission, having a Peer for its President should decide upon their privileges and become a Board of Record. Ne ve r wa s an ything mo re monstrous, it was the most complete anomaly he ever neard. And for what object was it to be formed ? What real objection had they to the Committee as now formed? The real objection was this, that they had no systematic method of obtaining remedies, for the evidence which one , Committee' wouldreceive atiotbei would reject. Tile consequence of that was, that the Report. of Com mittees On the same point fr e qu e ntly &tiered. They required then . some assessor, who would be' able to state what evidence ought, and what ought not to be received. Report said—he did not know whether it was true—that the , Noble Lord made this Commission for the express purpose of putting as President at' its head a Noble Lord—the Ex-Chancellor—Who •iits very desirous of obtaining such an appointment. Whether that was really the case he (Mr. Mackinnon) could not say, but such had,. been whispered in certain circles. He (Mr. 'Mackinnon) maintained that they wanted no Corn mission of that sort. If they wanted a supe rior tribunal, with an assessor to determine what evidence should be received and what rejected, in Heaven's name let Mr. Speaker appoint seven Members of that House, and get a Judge or a Sergeat-at-law to sit as assessor over this ,ont mmission, and direct the Members what ought and what ought not to be received as evidence. If any differences in the, determinations of Committees bad occurred, they had arisen, be was sm e, not from any corruption or partiality on the part of the Com- Mittece i but simply from their inability to determine, after the addresses of Counsel on either side, what evidence it was their duty to receive and what to reject. Tinder these circumstances he maintained that the Commission which Was proposed by this Bill was not only useless, but Wholly contrary to the law as it now stood. He thought that they would be injuring the institution if they allowed any one branch of the Le gislature to interfere with the other. He had much more apprehension of that House interfering with the privileges of the House of Lords, than of the House of Lords interfering with the privileges , of that House; but he was opposed to the Commission because it vio tated the principle upon which they had always acted, never to allow any Peer to interfere with election matters. He now wished to call the attention of the House to the 35th clause. A clause which .he conceived to have a most suspicious tendency. The Hon. Member then read the clause, which y provided that when costs, charges, and expenses, should be reported and or, dered to be paid by the inhabitants of any borough or county, the Clerk of the Peace or the treasurer of the county shall levy a rate upon the voters of the borough, city, or county, as the case May be, for carrying on the expenses of any petitions on the score of bribery. Now he called upon the House to look at the monstrous anomaly of this clause. Assuming, for example, that there were in the borough of. Ipswich 1,000 voters, and that of those 450' on each side were honest electors, and the remaining-hundred were the very lowest de scription of 101. voters, what were they going to do . by thiS clause ? They w ere, go i n g t o l evy a ra t e on the wealthy part of the community, who would have to 'pay the 'whole expense of petitioning. He could conceive nothing more opposed to the ordi nary principles of' legislation than such a mode of pro ceeding. He trusted, however, that those clauses to which he objected might be amended in CoMmittee ; .and if this were done, he could have no objection to the Bill: He should not, therefore, press the motion of which he had given notice, that the Bill should be committed that dgy six months. He felt that by then dividing . the Howe on such a motion be would only embarrass those *ith whom he usually coincided in opinion. • . _ Sir R. PEEL begged to assure his Hon. Friend that he could not feel any embarrassment as to the course he should pursue on that occasion, as he was prepared to act upon his own convictions respecting the measure. Mr. MACKINNON said that he wished to avoid voting against his own friends. He begged leave, therefore, to withdraw his motion. The motion was accordingly withdrawn. After a few words from Sir A. H. INGus and Mr. O'CONNELL .the House resolved into a Com mittee t -, n the Bill, Mr. GREENE in the Chair. Mr. C. BULL ;.R said that there were three clauses, from 34 to 37, which, although he thought the principle valuable, he had, upon consideration, made up his mind to withdraw fbr the present. There were technical difficulties which might prevent their provisions from being easily earned into effect. Sir IL INGLIS said he - would not follow the Hon. Gentleman in his details. The objection he had to the Bill was one ofprinciple, and perhaps there would be no objection to take the discussion then.— (Order, order.) . . On clause 1 beip_g proposed— Mr. O'CONNELL said it seemed to him that ar rangements could be made to pay head-money with out infringing this clause. He thought that if head money was paid before the vote was given, it would not come within the operation of the clause. Sir IL PEEL said that if money were paid before the vote was given, it would be considered as bribery. —Wear, hear.) If the- words "in pursuance of any usage" were left out, he thought it mould cure the objection of the Hon. and Learned Gentkinan. Mr. BERNAL agreed with the Right Honour able Baronet. To pay money before the vote was given was bribery under the existing law. With respet to basket-money, that was a sort of retaining fee, and was, in effect, 'decided bribery. Such a system ought to be put a stop to. as well as head. money. Mr. TURNER knew that, in many instances where -taxes had not been paid, they were settled by the candidates. He wished to know from the Right Hon. Baronet whether that was, or was not an of fence ? Sir R. PEEL was not competent to answer that question. Mr. O'CONNELL proposed the insertion of the words "" before, at, or after," in the clause. Tlie AT TORNEY-GENERAL thought the words unnecessary - . Mr. OVONNELL said that his object was to prevent the payment of money on any contract. But if the lion. and Learned Gentleman thought they would encumber the clause, he would not persevere in them. Sir R. PEEL thought it better to leave the general clause respecting bribery untouched, and then to recite that practice of paying various sums of money under the names of basket money, head money, &c., to voters prevailed at elections, and that those practices should be considered as bribery. Mr, O'CONNELL mentioned, as an instance of such practices, that at the last Belfast election one party had paid 7501 for car hire. SHEIL quoted the Report of the Compromise Election Committee to show that the stopping of direct bribery caused an increase of treating. He suggested the necessity of introducing a clause to put an end to the practice of giviug dinners to voters, which was often adopted in the place of head money. Mr. MILNES would suggest that it would be as well to insert in that clause something to the effect that there was a doubt as to what constituted bribery. He thought that was only fair to the constituencies in which that usage had prevailed. At the same time,, he thought the definition of head money by te Right Hon. Gentleman was perfectly correct. . Head - money no doubt was spent in festivities which succeeded the election. Mr. BERNAL thought what had fallen from the Right lion. Gentleman was deserving of very great attention. He remembered the Right HMI. Gentleman framing a measure to meet the great evil of intimidation, but he gave up that measure, as he found that to dove tail that measure (n that Bill would be to impede the progress of that measure.. He (Mr. Bernal) went the full length of the ..Right Hon. Gentleman about treat ing; and. unless they did something to remedy this evil they would do no good. They would find that as much mischief aroso after the passing of the Bill as before. It had been proved that a great sum had been paid to colour men in Newcastle. There were other men who did not arry colours, yet they walked before the colour• men, and were termed " gapers." They were all voters,and were paid. Now, all these points deserved consideration. To-morrow a Committee in No. 1, might decide that paying the colour-men and the " gaffers," ,was not bribery , while the Com mittee in No. 2, might hold that it was bribery. lie wits well aware of the danger of proving that clause, and he should, therefore, suggest that the Right Hon. Gentleman, who was sponsor to this Bill,. should omit the clause, and mrke the Bill a Bill of discovery, to discover bribery. Mr. S. WORTLEY was quite of opinion that no just conclusion on a subject of so much im portance could be arrived at, without Some proper tribunal. If this Bill should establish such a tribunal he could not help thinking that it would be sufficient to confine the enactment of the lst clause to the single purpose of removing the doubt which existed in the present law, which would then leave enough pdwer and discretion in the bands of the Tribunal. He agreed with the Hon. Member for liungarvon, that the practice of giving dinners to voters might, in marry instances, come under the head of bribery as much as giving m one y for a vote. lie must, however, be cautious in distinguishing 'Jet's-seen proceedings really intended to operate in the election by influencing the voters ; and bona fide festivities given at a time of 'exultation by a candidate to his constituents. He thought that they might have the existing clause on bribery, as it was with the addition, which might be placed in the preamble, for the purpose of removing the doubt which existed in the present law. Air. AGLIONBY - said the rem arks of the Member for Weymouth showed how difficu lt it would be to prevent bribery and corruption, but he showed no grounds whatever why the Honourable Member for Liskeard should withdraw his clause. If this clause did not do all that could be wished, it at least removed one. great evil. lie did not know what course he would pursue until he knew whether or not the words proposed to be introduced, namely, " before," " at," or " after," were adopted by the House. (LEFT SPEAKING.) IMPERIAL PAML/AIIIEIS T. HOUSE OF LORD.• Ju ruoß-LAW o BILL. (6:whaled front our Fourth Etiition of last night.) The Duke of WELLINGTON must interrupt the Noble Lord ; when he said they had acquired the name of bastiles, it was only from those who thought like the Noble Lord himself.—(A laugh.) Lord STAN HOPE contended that they were bastiles, the Commissioners only issuing their Iftires-de-cachet against the poor. They were prisons in their form, their seclusion, their rigour, and worse than prisons in the quantity and quality of the food given in them. Since the enactment of the law there had been a fearful increase of crime. The state of the labouring population must be various in different places ; but at the present time it was worse than it had been at any period of his recollection. As to the economy of the measure, which was to be one of its chief recommendations, in the agricultural districts the rates had fearfully in creased, in one place from 3s. to 1 ls. in the pound. He complained that the poor had no remedy under the law ,if it injured them ; it was adding insult to injury to tell them that they could go by a writ of certiorari to the Court of Queen's Bench. Cases of injustice and oppression had occurred, and in those cases the Poor-law Commissioners, in the per sons of the Assistant-Commissioners, had themselves been the judges. Their Lordships could not read a newspaper without finding recorded cases of starvation to death, and of suicide occasioned by horror of the workhouse. Had they not read of cases where petty thefts were committed for the sake of avoiding starvation in the comfortable asylum of a gaol ? Had not all this misery been occasioned by the accursed infamous Act, as the late Lord Eldon justly termed it ? They might repeal .the Act; but they could never recal to life the thousands who had been murdered in the rew prisons. He warned their Lordships to beware in time. There was no.animal so weak ur so tame that ill-treatment long continued would not rouse to anger. Charles the First was brought to the scaffold by the atten pt to levy ship-money, and Charles the Tenth, surrounded by powerful army, was hurled from his throne. Let them beware of the consequence of upholding this iniquitous law, or they would see similar events in this country —they would shortly see a general , convulsion. The Duke of WELLINGTON—ConvuIsion ! The Earl of STANHOPE—Yes, convulsion ; and he was very glad the Noble Duke had heard the word, anti he hoped it would be a warning to him. The Duke of WELLINGTON—Oh, I admire it.— , (Great laughter.) The En - iq of gTANHOPE wished to warn the Noble Duke what fate this Bill must work out for their Lord ship 3 individually and collectively—(Laughter and cheers)—if on being weighed in the balance they were found warning. —(Laughter.) ,The Noble Earl &In cluded by moving that the Bill be read a second time this day six months. The Earl of GALLOWAY (we believe) seconded the motion. Lord BROUGHAM (who was much cheered) said that he agreed with one observation of his Noble Friend, and with one only ; and he should take nearly the same course as the Noble Earl had marked out for himself, but had not very strictly followed, namely, not to occupy the time of the House unnecessarily long.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He had repeatedly consulted with , his Noble Friend on this subject, and had often given his reasons in that House for not agreeing with his Noble Friend in his objections to a measure which was proved to have operated beneficially fin- those who were the main and sole objects of the measure, and for whose good it was alone intended. His Noble Friend had brought. forward tha same charges which had already been dis proved to their Lordships' satisfaction. He had brought forward the same charges, without any change in his own terms—with the same vehemence, with the same ear nestness, with the same vague geueralities, and with the same unconsidered declamation.—(Hear.) If his Noble Friend had varied the charges in their form, if he had altered the tone of his vituperation, it he had in any sort limited the vagueness of his attacks, and alleged something specific against the Commissioners ' and the law, he (Lord Brougham) would have felt it his duty to reply to his statements, and to assert the usefulness of the law, of which he had been one of the most eminent pro moters. Be Would therefore occupy their Lordships no more than by referring in one short u ord to the con elusion of his Noble Friend's address, which had no novelty.—(Hear, hear.) Ile said that the conclusion of his Noble Friend's speech was no novelty, for more than once the Noble Earl had himself set himself the example.—(Cheers and laughter.) The Noble Earl used lavishly the terms " oppression and murder" as applied to the authorities, and " rebellion and con vulsion" when he addressed himself to the poor. — (Cheers.) The Noble Earl prophesied revolution and anarchy—a prophecy which, under the same circum stances amongst any other people, might, like other prophecies of evil, verify itself.—(Chters.) But he trusted his Noble Friend himself, in his calmer mo ments (if, on this subject, he was ever fated to experi ence a calm moment), would be sorry for the tone in which he had discussed, and the prejudices through which he had viewed this question.—(Great cheering.) If his Noble Friend should ever have reason to lament his indulgence in this extraordinary and most extrava pant course, he hoped the Noble Lords regret would be confined to the rpeeches themselves, fcr he believed that the good sense of the people of this country could not be so far led astray as to forget, as.other nations had forgotten; their duty to the peace of the land—their duty to the laW—their duty, as good subjects, to the Crown—as good citizens to the State—awl, as prudent citizens, to them selves. The Noble Lord sat down amid great cheering. The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Thursday. tsCHOOLMASTERS IN SCOTLAND.. The Earl of GALLOWAY presented a petition from It choohnasters of the parochial schools in Scotland. complaining of the inadequacy of their salaries, and pray ing Parliamentary relief. Lord ABERDEEN laid upon the table papers connec ted with the slave trade, and other documents which had been moved for. • A r• fr. . Jr!,ll. • • NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND). The Earl of CLANCARTY presented; a petition from a place in Dublin, against the system of National Education in Ireland. He bad given notice for to-night of a question which he intended to put relative to the es tab!ishment of agricultural schools, by the Board of Edu cation. His Noble Friend, the President of the Council, said it would be inconvenient to answer that question to night ; he should, therefore, postpone it till Friday next. COUNTY COURTS BILL. Lord SHAFTESBURY proposed the third reading of this Bill. Lord BROUGHAM said he believed this Bill to be a step in the right direction. Lord COTTENHAM complained that a number of new officers would hare to be appointed, and others would bk; displaced who would require compensation. '1 he Bill was then read a third time and passed. CUSTOMS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill passed through Committee. SLAVERY. Lord BROUGHAM said he had given notice that he should submit a proposition to the house upon the sub ject of slavery this evening. In the absence of his Learned Friend (the Lord Chancellor), however, he should postpone his proposition till Monday next ; at the same time, he thought it right to state that he could not consent to postpone it beyond that period. The Exchequer Bills Preparation Bill went through Committee. The Drainave (Ireland) Bill was reported, on the mo tion of Lord Wharncliffe, and ordered to be read a third time on Thursday. The Double Costs Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Thursday. The Fisheries (Ireland) Bill, was read a second time and ordered to be committed on Friday, The Mines and Collieries Bill was reported. The other Bills on the table were fora arded a stage, and their LordshipS - adjourned till . Thursday, at Ten o'Clock. HOUSE OF COMMOJVS, July 26. PORTUGUESE ARMY. Mr. LABOUCHEBE wished to ask the Right Hon. Baronet, the First Lord of the Treasury, whe ther he could hold. out any hopes of any payment being made to the unfortunate officers and soldiers who served in the army in Portugal. Sir R. PEEL said that in conducting the com munications with foreign Governments, he had had to contend in a more than ordinary degree with the impediments which arose from changes of Governments. That impediment existed in Portugal. The new Ministers professed naturally enough that they were overwhelmed with business, and required a little time to consider the matter. He had the satisfaction, however, to state that he believed that provisions were making for the payment of those people by half-yearly instalments. .Of course there would be a question as to the claims of those which would be adjudicated upon. Mr. BROTHERTON wished to say one word with respect to the erection of monuments in testimo nials to warriors. He believed that as long as they honoured warriors they would keep war itself' in fashion, and he was anxious to see more Members in that House who were disposed to cultivate the arts of peace. He knew that sentiment was very unpopular, but he could not refrain from entering his protest aga inst honouring men whom he conceived to be unworthy of honour. The amendments were then agreed to. REV. 11. MELVILL. Mr. HENRY KIiAIBLE said he hupEd that he might be allowed to vindicate the character of a near and dear relative, upon whom he con ceived an asprsion had been thrown by the Honour able Gentleman opposite (Mr. N. Gibson) in the speech which he had mad e upon hi s mot i on i nqu i r i ng into the distress of the country, the Rev. Henry Melvin. He did not believe that the Honourable Gentleman meant to say any thing prejudicial to the character of that gentleman, but at the same time he thought his views might , receive an unfavourable construction. It might appear from the Hon. Gentleman's speech that he was a mere political parson, whose object it was to ingratiate bimself with the Government by supporting their measures.—(Hear.) In the course of his speech, the Honourable Member quoted very largely from a sermon of the Reverend Gentleman, which h a d bee n r e p or t e d in a publication called The Pulpit. Ni,w, In ttiougbt it baldly tam that an individual should be trade responsible tor sentnnetits which were published without any authority. lie did uot offer any opinion as to its correctm ss or inverts ct- Less, but it was quite possible, from the manner in which the work was reponed, dint erroneous stateh.ents le;glit be conveyed. But, be that as it - might, he ven tured to say, that eo man was more capable of defending * . or less likt ly to shirk from any -statements that he had ' uttered, than the Rev. Gentleman. lie begged to say, that the allusions made to the Corn-laws were mostly incidental, occurring in a sermeu;--4ich was preached with no view to pubheation ; that they oct!urred in a sermon which was preached in behalf of the distressed manufac turers ; and that, as a proof that there was no want of, sympathy or zeal on the part of the Rev. Gentleman in advocating their cause, the result of that one sermon was a coLection of more than two hundred and thirty pounds.—. (Hear.) The Hon. Member, in the course of his observations, - represented his Rev. Friend as a man in cloee connection with her Majesty's Government. He did not know that it would be any disgrace to him if such were the fact, but lie believed the only fitundation for the statement was the fact, that he had been ap pointed by the Duke of Wellington to the Chaplainship of the T.;wer, and though he highly estimated that ap peintment, as comiLg from so illustrious an individual, it was totally unsoliciteci on his part, and the pecuniary • advantage 14 hich he derived from it , was exceedingly limited. With respect to the statement that the clergy were interested in supporting the Corn-laws, he begged to state that Mr. Melvill derived none, of his emolu ments nom tithes, the chapel of which he was the mi nister being conducted on that principle which was so dear to Hun. Members opposite, namely, the voluntary prin ciple. It was not fur him to say whether or not it was right for clergymen to interfere with po itics, but cer tainly no man could be more free from the charge of im properly interfering with politics than the Rev. - Henry Melvill. He ventured to say that he had never attended any political meetings whatever ; that he had never engaged in any political controversies ; any reflection, therefore, upon his character -on such grounds was extremely unjust.—(Hear, hear.) • Mr. Ai. GIBSON said he could assure the lion. Gentleman that he had not the least intention to cast any injurious reflection on the character of the Rev. Mr. The language which he had used was rather eulo g istic of his character than otherwise. He lied spoken of him as a distinguished and talented clergyman, deservedly enjoying the confidence of his congregation ; he scarcely knew, in fact, how he could have expressed himself in terms of higher approval. With regard to the publication called The Pulpit, he begged to submit to the Hon. Member whether the point to be considered was not rather the accuracy of the report, than whether the sermon was or was not published under authority. Ile believed that the work from which he had quoted contained as nearly as possible a verbatim report of the sermon of the Rev..H. Melvill. He did not understand the Hon. Gentleman to dispute its accuracy. He must take that opportunity of saying that he thought, as a general rule, that House had a right to complain of doc trines propounded in the pulpit by. the clergymen of the Established Church ; and that if political eco nomy was to be taught in the pulpit, they ought to take some steps for securing that the doc trine should be sound. (Laughter.) Ile begged to assure the lion. Gentleman that he had no ivish to speak of the Rev. Gentleman's personal character in this respect, and he would be very sorry to say anything of him which could, in the smallest' degree, wound his feelings. But Mr. Melvin, •in his p.,ipit, and as a minister of the Church of England, was public property, and was responsible to that House and to the country for the doctrines which he preached.--e(Criesof " No, no," and laughter.) Then what became of the connexion between Church and State 2—(Hear, hear.) Was the -ecclesiastical or the civil power to be uppermost ?. He thought it was a misapplication of the funds of the Church to make its pulpits a means of supporting the Corn-laws, and teaching the political views ofAy particular party. He said they were employin g public .pibperty in doing so. '1 hose on his side of the House employed lecturers to teach their views of the Corn-laws, and the other side might do the .same. —(Hear, hear.) They might employ lecturers from their private funds, and print and circu late tracts to support their views, but he not think they ought to sunc.ion the clergy of the Established Church in supporting their views of the Corn laws, and their systt m of political eeonomy,(Hear hear.) He did not think any person could denier to IL, soundness of the viers he then laid down.,, He would adhere to the opinion he laid down respecting Mr. Melvill's ser mon. To say the least of it, he thought it was indiscreet, and when he made allusion to the cleigy having a peen. niary interest, he begged to remind the Hon. Gentleman that he did not say Mr. Melvill had any pecuniary in. terest in supporting the Corn-laws, but what he said was, that if the clergy maintained 'the Corn-laws from the pulpit, their congregations may ask themselves if they had not an interest in supporting them. Mr, Melvill was a person of weight and influence, and therefore his opinions wire of more importance. He did not think it was any slur upon Mr. Melvin, to be in the confidence of her Majesty's Government, and his appointment to the chaplaincy of the Tower was a proof of that. He Lad not the slightest intention of casting any reflection on the re lative of the Hon. Gentleman. Sir It. INGLIS said that having been appealed to by the Hon. Gentleman he begged to say - he did not see what would be the use of articles of political economy to the clergy of the EStablished Church. Articles of poli tical economy made by the present Louse of Commons would not, he conceived, be much respected by the Hon. Gentleman. He denied the position laid down by the Hon. Gentleman that the clergy were responsible to that House.—(llear.) The conversation then dropped. COLONIAL PASSENGERS BILL. ' Lord STANLEY moved the Order of the Day for H the third reading of the Colonial Passengers Bill. The Bill having been read a third time, UR the question that the Bill do pass, • ' Mr. HAWES moved that the 811{ clause be struck out. He hoped to have not only the consent •,f the House, but of many of the MeMbera of - her Majesty's Government to that motion. Last year a similar clause had been proposed. by the then Secretary to the Colonies in bringing forward a measure on this subject, and that clause heti been opposed by the Noble Lord the present Secretary for the Colonies, .by the-present Secretary to the Board of Control, by the presunt.First Lord of the Treasury, by the Secretary to the . Treasury, by a Right Honourable Gentleman now absent, the. Secre tary of State fur the home Department, who , had all been anxious to avail themselves of the casual assistance of those who differed from them in political opinion, to oppose the then Go vernment as far as regarded that uwasate. The objec tion then taken to the measure was that there had been no definite plan for regulating the transportation of these Hill Coolies, and that was precisely the objection he (Mr. Hawes) took to the present measure. He could not but contrast the conduct of the termer Secretary for the Colonies (Lord J. Russell) with that of the present (Lord Stanley.) The former Noble Lord-had not in troduced his measure until Paiaament had had a fill ooportunity of discussing the subject ; while the present Secretary for the Coloniea had introduced the measure without any discussson, and had it not been that certain papers had been movedfor, the Bill, under the till of the Colonial Passengers Bill, might have passed without dis cussion. The Noble Lc-rd had objected to the measure of Lord John Russell, that there was no definite plan for regulating the deportation of the Hill Coolies, and that was precisely his (Mr. Hawes') objection to the mea sure of the Noble Lon'', and he would ask the Noble Lord what plan had been propounded on that subject since the measure of Lord John Russell ? Had the Noble Lord any plan—had he indicated any ? Cer tainly not. The Noble Lord had certainly written a most remarkable despatch on the subject, and that was all he had done. It would have been wise to have sub mitted to the House the conditions the Indian Govern ment had .entered into as the reason for passing the Bill, and they had a right .to know whether those conditions had been fulfilled. 'He thought the Noble Lord ought to wait till he had the assent of the Indian Government and the Government of the Mauritius to the measure. In these statements he was not saying a word against a system.of emigration conducted upon proper principles. If they could accomplish justice to parties emigrating to the Mauritius, he should not object to the emi gration of Hilt Coolies, but he contended that so desirable an end could not be obtained. He did not make that statement solely upon his own authority, because he found Lord Normanby stating, in 1839, that the Government was - decidedly hostile to any project for removing emigrants from the Mauritius ; and again, Lord Auckland had stated, in a despatch, that he feared such a systkm could not be carried out with out inflicting grievous injustice and fraud on a helpless people. Lord Auckland had said that no police regu lations would .ever be sufficient protection to the negroes in the Mauritius. The negroes were not provided with hospitals, and their living was extremely- bad, and they were generally very badly treated, and their complaints about the non-payment of wages were often passed by without notice. It could not be said that it was neces sary to send labourers to the - Mauritius with a view to the increased production of sugar. There had been no falling off in the production of sugar in the Mauritius, and there could not, therefore, be any necessity for the importation of labourers into the colony. He contended that if they passed the present measure, they would run the risk of a renewal of al.:very, that they could not adequately protect those poer people from fraud and oppremion. He entreated the. House, there fore, to pause before they passed the Bill, and to wait at least until they should receive further information on the subject. "lie lion. Member concluded, be moving the alteration of certain words, which would virtually defeat the object of the Bill. The motion having been seconded, Mr. G. BANKES supported the Bill. He was per suaded that the time was come, when they should !To• vide for a fresh supply of laiaatrers in our 11 est India colonies ; and he believed there was t.o quarter from which that supply could be so eenveniently or advantageously derived as frem the East Indies. There were but two sources of inanigration to which the West Indies could look for a supply, and those sources wet e, the one the coast of Afrieu, and the other the East of Asia. They haul has: the twidet,ee r.f tit Chas. Metcalf, who had bussed many it • in high office in the East hulk:, tn.d who In‘d suustqu« tidy been Governor of - Jwiuti.,.., ii,e q uottly, was well acquainte %%LI) the social posiion of both coun tries, to prove that there could be no objection to -the introduction- of labourers front the East Indies into the West Indies, except the length of the voyage, and that difficulty the Legislature would speedily remove. The present Bill, it appeared, did not provide for a supply of labourers to the West Italics, but he hoped that a Bill would be introduced for that pur- Pse early in the next session of Parliament. As respected the Mauritius, he was nut so• qualified to give an opinion ; but as respected Jamaica, lie thought he might venture to say that the result of all their in quiries was, that there wits no feur of oppression to per sous w this deseripOen. Vs Len diey t:rP introduced as labourers they w (Add be ie the inancoiate enj , :ymeot.i of equal rights and privileges with those! freed men who I , hail lost the mum) .of skate, and did not work more than they thought tit, which, in l,oita of fact, was was to the cultiv a ti o n o f so il s o trui t fui,-.and of so.txlcusill a colonv, Mr. VERNON SMITH said the Hon. Gentleman had introduced various topics-into the debate, hut kel'su not stated which way he intended to vote: He (Mf; Smith) did not intznd to follow him, but he thought:th e Report to which the Lou. Member alluded would 'ne"., l furnish the Noble Lord good pound for legislation. ' lie (Mr. Vernon Smith) would support the Bill, be' cause he thought it required every exertion on their Pse t l , to procure for their possessions a sufficient supplY . labour. At the same time, he would not do so if l' e f thought it interfered with the comforts or happincol, any individual ; and he thought that everything whL e • had occurred since 1840, made it more perilous to Ps' the Bill now than at that time. Sir A. GRANT rose to do an act of - justice to th e Noble Lord, the Secretary for the Colonies. Ile (Sir 4% 4 I, Grant) formed one of a deputation to' the Noble "1 horn the great body of the West Indian proprietors,' calling upon the Noble Lord to sanction the appoltitn' en of a Committee to inquire into the state of the West 1 0 ; dies ; and the Noble Lord consented to the appointw ee of that Committee with considerable reltukanco. Wh ° the Report of the evidence taken before that Comnlilt— was published, it would afford a complete refutation t" the assertion of the Hon. Member for Lambe:h, that West Indian proprietor could not do justice to an el'a nr ' cipated slave.. . Mr. HALVES explained. • „ Mr. BINGHAM BARING complained that the n ° ,: s Member for Lambeth was too apt to impute unwor t t le . motives to those who differed from - him in opinion. (Mr. Bingham Baring) had on a former occasion re: luctantly voted against permitting those persons to 0 1- grate, and he had been induced to do so because dle Hon. Member for Beverley had given it as the via° .of the Court of Directors, that some delay was ne ces ; sary in order to institute an inquiry before legislate'' on the subject. He agreed with the Hon. Gent 10 01; that unless security was taken that all the abuses wh' e l had been complained of should be put down, dist ! II would be improper to permit the immigration of 1-11 t Coolies into the Mauritius ; but he contended til l by the precaution's adopted, a proper administradt,.e of justice in the Mauritius was secured, and 4 0 recurrence of abuses rendered impossible. system of contract and bounty had been ")'", away with, and the labourer on hi s l an ding i,n 4l if island was free to engage with an y mas t er h e liken: a man were a bad master he would get no Sla Ve Lf (Hear, hear, from Mr. Hawes.) The Hon. Me ril- n ; was very willing to take advantage o f an inadver°4- word. Under the former system those bondmen slaves ; under the present .systene however, they we i ? free labourers. The Magistrates in the Mauritius " e „, impartial, and the comfort of the labourers would be s :t cured. It was not the object of the Indian G ov ernin,: , to encourage emigration from India to the Mauri n % and whenever wages in India should be higher d ig , they were in the Mauritius that emigration would 111 ' turally cease. ra t Mr. MANGLES had been anxious to hear by w argument the Hon. Member for Lambeth would 0 1 ) 11 / that which all political economists allowed to be % r right of every man, namely, the right to take his lab' r - d to the dearest market.—(Hear, hear. He had not W on a single argument from the Hon. Member e j that subject, the lion. Member having confi n himself solely to mere as .ertions.—(llear, In denying to the planters the. right of se eking., e labour elsewhere . than in the colonies, they were ( 10 ) 1 ,1 the planters less than justice. It was unjust to exP l o them to the competition of slave labour, and to f re t them the means of procuring an adequate supply "f to labour. It was also unjust to the Coolies to reftls!',. he allow them to seek employment in the colonies. Coolies had bt en improved by has ieg been in the 119 ritius ; they had become more muscular and ben ll ,i c s their moral faculties had been also improved, and % l a' had become a prudent and a saving race of men ; nt e,9 of them had remitted money to India, and all of that had become possessors of some property. He ne • t h knew an instance of a Hill Coolie being dissatisfied 0,/, his condition after he arrived at the Mauritius. ' Le thought it right that the natives of India shout` i allowed to choose what employment they pleased, ;In" go where they pleased in search of it. ss? Mr. HOGG.—The Hon. Gentleman opposlte to menced his address by saying that he was a frien.u n d free trade ; but he (Mr. Hogg) was not so much a fre to free trade as the Hon. Member, who would carry_,' to the extent of exporting his fellow-creatures.—(C heel ; If the motion of his Hon. Friend, the Member fsr , beth, were carried, and the objectionable clause were ta d punged, the measur es o f th e N o bl e L or d (Stanley)w ° l „,, still be in absolute operation, and the legislative ceedings which followed the Order of Council, issued ;tut wards the end of last year, he rendered nugatory-. . ec e t the discussions which had taken pla'se upon this still.), in both Houses of Parliament, after the interest re had been excited in the public mind out of door s, h contend that the Noble Lord was bound to take the 0 1"_„ nion of the House before he introduced any eas urevunptv: the subject. The Government were bound to Pr o c e -s ed "recurrence of the frightful scenes which had adoptedlndia. He ecoucrosme Se a mease the public to expect. He was sorry t o opP° n con' pdlaiffiteleredntthfartontihtt‘hlalto‘mol?ica:tiiii‘eii: , re supported by so many, in whose ucts he g e . Y nsise currei! ; but he was not to be blamed for the into ency of the Government. He had ever n shown any ru confidence by his votes in the general policy of the Lord; the late Secretary for the Colonies, but, where t" great cause of humanity was at stake, he felt bound !,, (1 say, that he had always felt the greatest confidence that Noble Lortl. 7 -(llear.) Every one admitted the " tiheasdhl:dd. evils and abuses had existed in India ; there was ne "' 5 ; pute on that point. The very hesitation shown 2 , legislating on the subject, was an admission that a b b e had existed. The Hon. Member then referred to evidence taken before the Committee, with respect to injuries inflicted upon the Hill Coolies, and the ge n° ,4 results of the system. How was it that they never lie°'"? of the Coolies in the Mauritius renewing the contr ac . l, l Why that fact itself was the most powerful against;. system.--(Hear, hear.) With respect to those wl" to turned to India, they were picked men who were re nt e d induce others to go to the Mauritius. He adnd! t :r,, that the provisions proposed by the Noble Lori o:ea calculated to remove many of the evils which had in the passage as well as in the Manr i s There was not. one word in the instructions of the ld Lord relating to the lodging of the Coolies. He we l : t suggest the establishment.of district hospitals for 9 , l e i, reception a: d fOr their medical assistance in the s t y e nesses incident to a new and unwholesome climate• if was not opposed to free emigration ; on the contra' it any plan of voluntary emigration could be devi: ho t should have' his most cordiel support. He knew $ the population of India would be benefited by su 'e lJ relief ; but be was convinced that under the pi - or dr plan free emigration would not be sufficient fo;- P. pose. Besides, he was greatly dissatisfied with the visions made for the return of the Coolies to their 4) „ e country ; nor were the precautions taken to g uard 7• natives against the impositions of crimps by any* to sufficient. They ought to be fully apprised by r io Government authorities, before their departure ; A t India, o: the conditions upon which they were auy o s to leave their country. It would amount to entire prohibition of the emigration, if the Inc h p Were compelled to take their families with them• fo r would be much better to make some arrangement' the transmission of part of their earnings f or the sull,"0 of their families, the latter remaining at home. He °t' also recommend that besides a careful survey of the no to be employed in the transport of labourers t° Mauritius, it should be made peremptory that the pasZe should be limited to the time of the monsoons. l o t Hon. Gentleman apologised- to the Hou se for hn v i• taken up so much of its time in the di scus sion (1 0 ‘: subject in which few would feel so strong 0 interest as he did. He hoped that "ijle our motives in promofng the abolition of Ac e- African slave-trade were misrepresented and misli!" - to stood by other nations, the House would do nothine give a colour to the assertion that we were keeping sly" in our own possessions. - Lord STANLEY - hl - )I,v yon 4.4orci _ would not reply to the 1 attack of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman upon 1 " 131 ,; . 0 a spirit of equal bitterness. There could be no qu o yi that, after the passing of the Slave Emancipation ni l "ar 1835, great numb( rs of Coolies were induced, by ftA lint reixesenialions, to enter into con:racts for 111- 10 with planters in the Mauritius. The abuses .wfr e ' r e flagrant, that, in 1838, a law was passed absolutely 0 venting the emigration of native Indian labourers , ., - o f Coolies and others, under any contracts. The eb . .i', o3 i• the present mbt, B rtao i n l l sts w e.e a u s rH t e o ,ea n yt io ot d hte i e f r y isa • amg that eaitli A ims t c e t :tpi t l o eer a fle l a l c o ltv w p • or t io. ?;o ri; g t the tl e' bition, because he thought th at i t was against trri-X principle of freedom th a t t h e nat i ves of India shouror shut up. withi n th e i m i ts o f t h e i r own peninsula,lig",4 citified front intercourse with the rest of the Having all the information from India which ee ui " t 'eti procured, there was no inconsistency, th a t i n forei.se being fully matured,. in adopting in 1842 that•li°,l4s which he did not think there was sufficient gm" -- e d, introduce before. So far as the passage was coneerflip the Hon. Gentleman did not make any objection.' i ce (Lord Stanley) did not take up the subj ec t for. the - t i ,. of the Mauritius, although he knew that the 3 hr• ritius would suffer if it ).ad not a sufficient sulr o f of labour; but he did so. because h e knew while the Mauritius would be benefited, no /Rite,. would be done to any one.—(Hear, h ea r.) The j 1 1,,f Gentleman, the Member for Lambeth, compl4int' — a the deception practised upon the people of Indi s 'je the manner in which they were induced to em bark. ••,‘, thought he would be able to show that all th 7.. grip ‘ alleys were toeoved. The system of kidnapet4', as it was called, took place in consequoice of 1" 11 ,'.„, persons paying for entrapping the lab ou rers and ieu!Oti; advances to the Coolies, which was the main stay trade. But the system of advances etas proll" 1 , by the present proposition. The Hon. Gentleman complained that the Hill Cooies were intoxicated Op iwprisened. The n:thst effectual means w ere taken, ) P revent such practic: s by th e present Bill. The 11`, 60 Gent!, man also oej( cti d that persons (-yen , tak' l , l l ,,,e board while the vessel w as (Nano. d.,wa the river. , did the present Bill p ro p ose to creal ith that evil? if the (;: , ptain of the vess( took nnv I,erson bl:Vso whom he oeght not, he forfeited his whole fr"g„.ll„ar: that he had now no inducement to take any - , e r e on board.—(Hear.) When it was said the contracts unfavourable, what was the contrast betw.een 11,./. systems ? confining the labourer to his own te ou i s tory, and not allowing him the liber of sPn ti l le ba emigration, he was able to earn only 4! ICs : a Y , being allowed to emigrate he could obtain 361. loss year, so that-the real hardship and cruelty of was in not giving him that liberty.-.—(llear, heari)i The Coolies 2.(111'g t — t „n or 1q was the vietv also taken f the (natter by. the ritius went there • noa as free men, tree to ityo stop as they pleased ; but if they returned with " ~-..._ year h a d been. Govt IN s rely right t contr been to e , Dire( had the'; and Th 4 ti k i