The Sun. — London, England, 1842-03-04 00:00:00

~ L~~`~-c THE' SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY MORNING, MARCH 4, 1842. no attention could be paid to it, and that the law with the utmost rgour should take its course.—(Cheers; from the Ministerial benches.) With respect to the other individual, the Government thought it right to ad mit him in evidence, bearing in mind 'the great importance there existed to succeed in a convic tion of the principal offender, and bearing in mind the great 'importance to obtain as far as possible the most minute information respecting the matter. I am fully prepared to d efend the conduct of the Government (Cheers)—although I am not diposed to think that any person acquainted with the circumstances of the case will be at all diSposed to - question that conduct.—(Hear.) It so happened also that the individual, after the other application had been refused, himself applied. • The in dividual, after the other party had been admitted as evi dence, after having retained counsel, and given informa tionwith respect to the signing of the bills, thought proper to plead guilty ; and there have been complaints that through that plea of grtilty—tri which the Government, though they have been accused of it, were. I am sure, in no degree accessory—the public have been deprived of that develop ment of the whole circumstances which would have been made. Having convicted the offender, another important duty remained to be performed, naively, to re -esablisli the credit which had been so greatly shaken. To effect this no other means could be adopted than the difficult and laborious one of calling in the Exchequer bills, ex amining them Separately in the office from which they :tad been issued, stamping them with a mark to denote their genuineness. and then re-issuing them to the public. And here I should be guilty of thegreateet injustice if I did not pay a tribute to the assiduity and zeal of the Comptroller of the Exchequer, who, being called upon to perform a duty in some degree foreign. to the office which he. held, devoted his whole time for a very considerable period to thepersonal superintendence of the necessary arrangements. To his exertions on that occasion the public were in debted for the short time which elapsed be tween the presentation of the bills at the Exchequer and their re-issue to the public, and, therefore, to their not being exposed for a longer time to the inconvenience which must result from the withdrawal - of so large a mass of securities from the public service. —'(Hear, hear.) Having provided for this necessity, the Government proceeded to a task which was obviously necessary, namely, to institute an inquiry as to what were the re gulations of the office from which these Bills were issued, vvith a view to • recommending such alterations as might be necessary to prevent the occurrence of similar evils in future. For that purpose they selected individuals, of whom I need not say that as they are most distinguished for their ability; so they stand most high in character, as upright and honourable men—men who are neither likely on the one hand to be influ enced by popular prejudice, nor on the other to pay any deference to any wish which might be felt in any quarter to veil whatever might have been amiss, or to keep it back from public observation. To these gentlemen I cannot suffieiently • express my obligations for having, at great inconvenience to them selves, undertaken a public duty of a laborious and irksome character,andhaving devoted so much of their time,l trust it will be admitted with benefit to the public. Now, Sir, I do not mean at the present moment to enter into the question of the Report. Hon. Gentlemen are fully aware of its contents, and a time will come when I shall have to submit to the House regulations necessary for hereafter" 'establishing the whole question arising upon that Report, and, when it will properly come under the consideration of Parliament. I may here how ever remark, its an answer to those who thought the Government desired concealment of what took place in the office of the' Exchequer and the Treasury, and who taxed us With having admitted one of the pal ties as Queen's evidence, and induced Smith to plead guilty, with a view to screen the Government, there could not be a stronger proof of its fallacy, than the investigations of those gentlemen who had submitted the result of their labours to the House. The Government had the power to act — the Goveroment acted as .'I think the House will act when the circumstances are before it. But Sir, there is something more required, in -this case, as it appears to me i than the mere examination of official persons. It must be obvious, that in order to the completion of the crime, the details of which I have given to the House, there must have been two circumstances. One was a want of caution on the part of that department of the State—a want of caution I admit which has been shown for many years past. But, Sir, for 150 years no offence whateverhas been committed of a similar character. Nor had any thing occurred which could lead to a suspicion that Exchequer bills had been forged—and something more was ne cessary than a breath of confidence on the part of the individual in office, or want of strength in the official regulations, to tempt an individual to this offence. I say, Sir, and I say it advisedly, that this offence could not have keen committed in the midst of the in telligent community which inhabits the metropolis Without the person being in communication with some persons, I will not say who were conscious of the guilt, but I will say who must have had some knowledge of the transaction going on, and whose duty it was to have given information. Why, Sir, we gave the result of the first detection of the offence. No sooner were the proceedings taken against the individual Smith, than I received from various quarters details of suspicious cir cumstances that had occurred. I understood from one gentleman that be had been offered Exchequer bills for a loan, but he. rejected them, as they were suspicious, and this gentlemen gave me to understand that the same par ties had a quantity of Exchequer bills—these individually devoid of character—that were all ready for signature. These are circumstances, on the part o" the public, which require to be inquired into, • that we may properly understand the real nature of the subject. It is, therefore, with this view that I shall call upon Parliament to institute a specific inquiry —(Cheers)—not to be conducted by a Committee of this House—(Hear)—or by a mere Commisionappointed by the Crown ; but, Sir, by a Commission appointed by Parliament to investigate the real nature of these several transactions ; to see how business was transacted by these several persons ; to know whether they were men of such suspicious characters that honest men would hardly be connected with them ; whether for the money advanced on the bills they received in return an interest. beyond the market rate.—(Hear, hear.) These and a variety of other circumstances require to be rigidly and strictly investigated before the House can. be called on to come to any final decision on the question ; nay, before we can be called on to understand the nature of the case with which we have to deal.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, an inquiry of • this kind . requires the highest moral consideration ; it is essential that the . public of the country should know how business is conducted. It is quite right they should knew it, because if we believe that the per sons at the head of this 'office were well ac quainted with the duties they had to perform, and exercised Care and attention in their several occupations, and that these practices sell occurred, a different set of regulations will be necessary. Sir, there is perhaps another circumstance to which I ought to advert, which has been pressed on me by many gentlemen in a variety of ways. I allude to , claims for compensation. To the claims so brought before me, I have, as I conceived it my duty to do, given the most decided refusal. The granting of claims for compensation, in a case of this kind, is to take away feoni the public the greatest security they have against the repetition of such offences, and is to do. ail in your power to render such practices .of more frequent occurrence. Sir, if I were once to give my opinion that a man takine these bids were to be compensated for any loss. he might undergo, what could I do more, to re mwe all blame from him ; or what could I do more effectual to encourage a criminal individual to seduce , a public servant, being sure that the termination of the affair must be that he should receive, any money that he had expended ? I, therefore, Sir, have chosen to give the least-encourage ment to propositions of this kind, and I do most decidedly advise the House and Parliament to weigh wellnll the considerations of this case, before they are led away ' by any statements of party or individual hardship, • or individual suffering, before they yield to claims of this nature. . Sir, it appears to me, I confess, before the House car. enter on a question of the sort, that they must satisi'y themselves that ti - ese is some distinction to be drawn between the law as L applies to forgery on indi viduals, and also to forgery on the public—that they must make up, their minds to this, that it is not expedient to give to the holder of a forged instrument a remedy against the p. rty issuing it. I do not mean to say that there may not be instances wherein the House should forego this; rule, but I advise them to resist any encouragement to parties, be they who they may, that their claims will be satisfied before the whole nature • of the transaction be brought to light.—(dear, hear.)- For, Sir, if it should appear that these crimes have been committed by means of putting confidence in suspie cions individuals—nay, in individuals more than suspi cions, whose conduct in previous transactions had given a taint to them ; and if it should fur ther appear th - at there was a species of sc cresy enjoined when these bills were deposited as security that . was not usual ; if it should ap pear that the intereA demanded was greater than under similar circumstances Would be demanded upon fair and hoaourable transactions ; if it should ap pear that when a bill escapel from what I shall call the imprisonment in which it was put, that a premium was offered to g ot hold of that particular bill —if I say all these circumstances'should - be the result of inquiry, I think, until those points are made clear, that the Howie and the Government should ab stain from holding out the slightest expecta tion to any parties, that th ey are ca ll e d upon to prevent aaopool • of the .ordinary courac. Wi t h these views, th , refore,, I shall conclude by proposing to Parliatnen thatt . thtv 'should appoint a COmniis;:. - ion for the puree o; inquiring as to the receipt, eke elation, and pos3ess-ton of certiiii lorged Exchequer Bills.--(Hear.) An Honouralde Gentleman opposite . has given notice of a motion as an anentinerat to the one which I propos, - 2. for that pur ref.:rring this matter to a Selectpoie, Committee. I presume that the Honourable Gentlernae'a motion is, like IY.1:11e, fbr the parpoK, , of obtain:ng knowledge of evciything that has taken place. I prefer the motion I shall submit to the Ilons: to that of the Honourable Gentleman, and I trust that the Honourable 31emb:v will give me .credit not wishing; to throw army obstacle in the Way of this measure. I think that the coarse which I mean to pur sue is by_ far the lLtter one. By appointing Commissioriers they will have the power of seppointing parties,.- who constitute in themselves high legal authority ; they will not be liable to be influenced by any consideration relative ,to constituency- ; and they swill he best qualified to investigate th.) real circumstances of the case. They will have th eAlec;po,ver t 0... make 'the most searching inqu;r Y into all the points of the case, to w re h p i otl;l 4e ' -ae' 11 11c - ixe ufled t ;. and I, - enifidently- trust heir unknown to either ---i t haLther:will,..kenci, point Parliament a id Government will therefore in a situa nwat or the country -LEX tion to judge what is the course which be will be most advisable for them to pursue, and which conducive to the prevention of a similar crime, and the preservation of the public credit.—(Hear.) Mr. KEMBLE said that having been requested at the coinuitenceinent of the Session, by the holders of Ex chequer bills, to present a petition to the House on their behalf; and having found by the rules of the House that it was impossible that he could present that petition without the recom mendation of Government, he had waited most anxiously till the Right._ Hon. Gentleman had made his s t a t e ment. . With the greater part of what the ' Right Hon, Gentleman had said he (Mr. K.) fully con curred. That the subject was one of great importance there could be no doubt, and he should not have risen: to make any observations had it not been for something like a reflection which had been cast by the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon the holders of those Bills. He (Mr. K.) would venture to say on their behalf that someof the holders of these Exchequer bills would be found among the most respectable and honourable men that this great metropolis could produce ; and he, only hoped the House would suspend their opinion on the transaction under discussion till that full inquiry which the Right Honourable Gentlemen pro posed had taken place. He (Mr. had been-made ac quainted with the circumstances attending that transaction, but it would be unjust to the parties themselves to enter further into the discussion of them at present. He could only say if the Right Hon. Gentleman gave the consent of the Government to having that petition to which he alluded presented, it would be seen that the course intended to be pursued by the Right Honour able . Gentleman was just such a one as the holders of those bills would require. He was not at liberty exactly to read the prayer of the pe tition, but he might be allowed to read what was the conclusion of that petition. From it the House would see that the holders of the bills in question demanded nothing more than a strict and rigid inquiry into this affair—an inquiry which was due both to themselves and to the public at large. The petitioners went on to say, each for himself, that their conduct in the receipt of those Exchequer bills, and the advances they had made on their security, hedbeen an honest bona fide proceeding, perfectly regular, and in the ordinary course of business ; and therefore they solicited from that Hon. House, through such, means as its wisdom might suggest, a most scrupulous and effective investigation into - ail the circumstances of the case, so far as they were concerned and they were willing to state all they knew about it on oath, and to produce all books, papers, and writings, connected with it in their possession ; for they made this appeal to the Hon. House confident that the result would fully satisfy the House that the conduct of the petitioners in the receipt of such bills, had been honourable, regular, and unexceptionable in every respect.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. K.) confichntly believed that the gentlemen who signed that petition had nothing to keep in the back ground.—(Hear, hear.) They desired and expected a rigid examinati..7n 4 such in fact as the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. K.) would not now enter into details as the House was not in possession of materials for discussion ; he would content himself with merely remarking that the speech of the Right Honourable-Gentleman showed that an inquiry was demanded. not only for the sake of the public, but that it would be unjust to the holders of -the bills if it were refused ; con sidering, moreover that those frauds had been committed by persons_ in the employment of the Go , vernthent. He had now but to notice the amount of interest charged on those Bills. • It would appear that the interest charged by the lenders was no more than. according to the money rate at the time the advance was made ; and he would remind the House, that the great corpora tion of the Bank of England, four times a year, advertised to lend money, for a limited pes period, at five per cent. on Exchequer bills. The petitioners should not be blamed for doing what the Bank of England did ; and if they had in any instance taken higher interest than five per cent., he would remind the House that they h a d one so under the sanction of the Legislature, which had re-' laxed the usury laws for the benefit of trade.—(Cheers.) , The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER assured the House, in explanation, that the condemnatory re masks he had made referred to certain persons of whom he had received information ; but he never meant that a whole body of merchants were guilty of participating in the fraud.—(Neer, hear.) He should be very sorry if such an imputation should be attributed to him when he meant quite otherwise.— (Hear.) Mr. LEADER letzi one or two observations to make on what had been said by the Chancellor of the Exche quer and the lion. Gentleman. The Right Hon. Gen, tleman forgot that there were two questions of careless ness, ore on the part of the holders of the Exchequer bills, another on the part of the Exchequer bill-office. He would admit to the Hon. Member for Surrey, that many such as he represented had claims for compensa tion ; but he (Mr. L.) had the authority of a banker, a Member of that House, for stating that, long before the discovery of the fraud took place, tjtere had been rumours in the City that something was wrong in the Exchequer bills. He had told him (Mr. Leader) that he himself had had a narrow escape, and he had also authorised him to state the circumstances, but requested that him name might not be mentioned. As that Gentleman was a Member of that House, he could contradict him (Mr. Leader) if he stated anything incorrectly.—(Great laughter.) That Gentleman had stated to him (Mr Leader) that shortly before the discovery that the Exchequer bill fraud had taken place, a person had come to him and said that be wanted a loan of 60,0001., or any pert of 60,0061. on a deposit of Exchequer bills. Excheque r bills were, at. that time, at a premium of from 12s. to 15s. The person wanting that loan offered six per cent. interest for the money—money at the time being easily procured on good security, such as Exchequer Bills for four per cent. The banker having considered that subject, thought there was something about the transaction that.he did not like, and told the person on making the application that if he was in want of money he had better sell the bills than borrow money on - them at such a rate of interest. The same person, on the reference of. the banker, after wards went to one of the greatest capitalists in Londen, and made the same proposal ; the answer of the capi talist was the same as that of the banker had been : "You cannot afford to give such an amount of interest; if you want money so very badly as you repre sent yourself to do, you had much better sell the bills." Now, he (Mr. Leader thought, that when persons hold ing forged Exchequer bills could be proved to have received them under . such circumstances, they could have no claim whatever for compensation— (Hear, hear, hear)—for whatever might have been the amount of carelessness of parties connected with the Exchequer Bill -office, they could not excuse the gross carelessness of parties receiving Exchequer bills under such circumstances. And while the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been properly severe on those who had taken Exchequer bills under suspicious circumstances, the Right Hon. Gentleman had not been sufficiently se, vere on the ca,:elessnees exhibited at the Exchequer Bil!- office. He (Mr. Leader) thought that from the docu ments before the House,- from the letter of the Comp troller-General, and likewise from the Report of the Commissioners, it appeared that the country had a very fair subject of complaint against the Exchequer Bill-office.-- (Hear, hear, hear) Ile wished to ask the Chancellor of the Excheqta r if the statement which he (Mr. Leader) was agent -to make, was correct or not.—(Hear.) Ile (Mr. Leader) had been informed that at the time when the Exchequer Bill-office was remodelled, a person acquainted with that department had called the attention of the persons in authority to the fact that Mr. ,Beaumont, Smith . was possessed of great power, and that there was no check whatever upon him, his being the only depart ment in the office cn which there was no check. That representation had been made to the persons in authority! He believed that the present Comptroller-General was at the time Chancellor of the Exchequer.—(No, no.) At any rate, the representation had been made at the time the Comptroller-General was connected with the Treasury, and it was certain that that recommendation had not been attended to, because they knew that Mr. Beaumont Smith had retained that power, which he had so monstrously abused. It was not necessary for him to allude to other marks of carelessness in that office, for these would no doubt come under the attention of the Commission. But he had only wished to call the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the circumstance which lie had mentioned ; because a feeling had gone abroad ~that there was so 'much carelessness in the Exchequer, that those persons who had advanced money on fair interest upon those bills were entitled to compensation. He un , 'derstood that the stamped paper was - under the unchecked control of the same person (B. Smith), whereas in the Bank of England, the , epaper which was to be used for notes, was-“guarded as care fully, as it was after it had received the signatures. Mr. BLEWITT was understood' to say, that as the House seemed to acquiesce in the course proposed by the , Right H ~ Hon. Gentleman the _Chancellor of the Exchequer, he would not oppOseqt. But on looking over the Report which he held' in his hand, he was not sure that it was quite cleapthat any forgery had been committed. For it appeared.. to him that Mr. Beaumont Smith had every opportunity of getting the signatures, without having recourse to tbrgery.--(llear, hear.) With that exception, he coetrerred in the motion. Sir R. INGLIS concurred wii6- 'the Hen. Gentleman who had just, addressed the ...House, that the motion before the House begged the question, which ought principally to be tlitt, object of inquiry:— that. was whether, the bills were or were not forged. He should not have troubled the House, but that his Right Honourable Friend in some war prejudiced, the case of those who were bone fide holders.—(Hear, hear'.)' He came into the House without having made up his mind, and deter mined to reserve his judgment until he .should Intro learnt what course the Government meant to take. :But his Right Hon. Friend had drawn au analogy, which he (Si; R. Inglis) could not a g ree to, although it had r ece i ve d the sanction of a ;lig:llegal authority. It was that the holders of tilese had no more-right to compensation than the holders of ,or' ed'dank notes. The Right Hon. Gentleman would not deny that the; bills whit:* formed the subject of his motion issued fsom a Government de partment. Whether they issued :rout the left hand door or from the right hand door e'd not, matter mulch, but that they issued from a Government department was un questionable, and the distinction in the point of analogy between a note of the Bank of England and one • of those bills 'was, that in the latter case the um aided bill had been previously issued from a Gove..amens departme tits — (Cries of "No.") He Understood these bills wera . perfected by the Government. in every respect, except is the sig nature of the Comptroller-General ; that I._:e,paper NIT.* . Giivernment paper *; that the seal ryas the GovernmeLt seal ; and that the officer who 'i-shed it was a Go .vernment officer.—(Cries of " No, no.") But that would be a matter of inquiry. —(Hear, hear, aad a laugh.) His argument proceeded on the assumption that with the single exception of the' signature the bills in every other respect belonged to the Government, and that whether they issued from the office of the Exchequer - or the Exchequer Bill-office, in either case the bills, the subject of this motion, were bona fide issued from a Government department, and that being the case he thought his Right Hon. Friend prejudiced the case by drawing an analogy between the holder of a note and the holder of one of these bills. He thought, until he was contradicted, that the Exchequer bills,. whether issued fraudulently and by night, or honestly and in the open face of clay, had issued from a Government depart ment, and that being so that they were still bona fide. With that observation he would not interpose any other delay. Mr. F. T. BARING said he would trouble the House with a few wirds, and he could not but express his con . _ _ eurrenee with tleman opposi quiry, and sift vestigation. him as to the r (Hear, hear.)', that it was iM whit had fallen frOm the Right Hon. Gen e as to the propriety of Instituting an in ing the subject by a free and complete in :Hear, hear.) He fully concurred with tecessity of a Commission of Inquiry.,- L. The Right Hon. Gentleman had. stated, DosSible for a Government not to be sub- jact to suspici be impossible the subject, w screened if an; that House. but whether they were or not, it would to disabuse the minds of the public upon o believed that certain parties would be inquiry were not instituted by Members of He need not add a single word more, ex- cept as to an Westminster. observation made by the Member for He had stated that a communication was made to the .asury at the . time the arrangement of the Exchequer w Smith, and tl was one of the made, with respect to M. Beaumont le power he possessed. He (Mr. Baring) commission for conducting that business ; but after the ill passed, most, he might say the whole, of the carryi g the 'Bill into effect devolved upon him, he being the' ' Secretary of - the Treasury. and this - was the first time e had had the slightest intimation of tli.:l kind. He m ght add, that it was not till he saw in the newspapers e intelligence that the Government was taking propeg measures for pursuing the inquiry, that a hint of the kind had reached him as to the fraud that had been carrying on. 'With regard to Mr. Beaumont Smith, and the arrangement made for the selection of the officers, it should be stated that no recommendation for any officer, from the Chief Clerk of•the Exchequer down to the lowest in the office; - Was ever attended to, unless it came from ti heads of ' the department, and every, en deavour was made, by inquiries into their character, to select the est officers. No appliCation or recommend ation was ev r attended to exce . pt.those from the proper department nd the heads of the office. Unfortunately this was an instance proving that the greatest care did not alwais secure a good public servant, for if there was any teptimony of character in favour of one person more strong than another, it was in favour of Mr. Beaumont Sinith. He believed he - should do better in following th course of the Right Hon. Gentleman and not go into my discussion as to whether, as had been re marked by the Hon. Member fur the UniVerSity of Ox ford, the E. ' h.Nuer bills came out of one door or an other. The would see the expediency of waiting, till they were it possession of the whole facts of the case. He entirely neurred in the course taken by the Right lion. Gentk4nan. Mr. LEAOEB in' explanation, said that with respect to the necessity of additional checks in Mr. Beaumont Smith's department, the evidence giveri beforc the Com missioners proved that there was no check over him; and that the GovernMent might have had additional checks if they like Colonel BTHORP approved of the motion of the. Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which he hciped would elicit the truth upon the impor tant, questiori under the consideration of the House.. As the night Hon Gentleman had made such a motion - he (Colonel Sibthorp) could riot support the propesal ofthe Hon. Member for London as he should otherwise have done. (The Hon. and Gallant Member then proCeeded to read several documents, for the purpose of shoWing that Lord Monteagte . had discharged his duties as. Comptroller of the Exchequer with great carelessness.) He trusted that, in the investigation which was to take place, there , would be the strictest impartiality, that, when the result was made known, the public might see— he .would not say who was the greater rogue—but who was behind the eurtain.—(llear, hear.) Me would, when the result of that investigation ri as submitted to the House, closOy and minutely weigh every circumstance, andexpress his opinion on the ,subject. _ Mr. RICARDb expressed a hope that there would be no unnecessary delay in bringing in the Bill. • Mr. WAKLEY said as he had not been in the House. when the Right Hon.: Gentleman introduced the discus-. sion, he would be glad to know whether the Commission was to extend its' inquiry into all the circumstances un der which the'bills were issued, or Whether it was to extend it me7ely to the manner in which the holders be came possessed Of them. _lf the inquiry was to be re stricted to - the last point, he did not believe that the pub lic would be satisfied.—(Hear, hear.) His own opinion was that the people:of this country were quite willing that Parliament should vote remuneration to the bonu fide holders of 'hose, bills. He thought the people of this country felt that the character of the Legislature would suffer, if it allowed any party to be at a loss in con sequence of the gross mismanagement which had oc corred_in this department .of the Government.—(Hear.) Whilst, however, the , public were -Willing that - the bona .fide holders should be paid the amount which they had advanced upon the bills, he thought they.were at the same time justified in insisting that the most scrutinising I and searching investigation should be instituted, as to the manner in which those bills had been -issued from the lExchequer office or elsewhere.-L(Hear, _hear.) It was not known where they came . from, and the public wanted ' to know from what office they came ; and if it was proved to be the consequence of mismanagement on the part of the Government that those bills had been issued, from all be heard, from different 9uarters, the public were quite prepared that the bona fide holders should not suffer. Now they had an illustration of what was meant by responsibility, a word often used in, that House. They heard that this or that was done under the responsibility . of the Government. These bills had, it appeared, been issued from the Exchequer-office, therefore it was under the responsibility--of the Government. • He wanted to know what that responsibility was, and who were the persons that would suffer. lie wa, not desirous to in crease their mental suffering, but he, diet:not' like the pockets of the people to suffer for their neglect. There fore, if a course of neglectin the ExChequer-office had caused this fraud, he was anxious to know the result of ' the issue , of these bills, and ' who would escape, and on whom the responsibility would fall. He hoped in future less respect•would be paid to the declarations made in that House by the Government. -• . Mr. J. S. WORTLEY, who was at first inaudible in the gallery, was understood to say that Government had directed their attention to the mode in which these Ex ; chequer - bills had been issues], and the nature of the Ifraud committed. Ile . thought a few words were due due from his Right lion. Friend, in order to allay the I apprehensidns of the public. He thought it would be I well if his Right Hon. Friend would explain the steps taken in order-to verify the authenticity of those bills 1 which were actually in circulation. They knew per ! fectly well that certain steps ha.d been taken, and lie ap prehended it would' give additional confidence, if it were I shown that means existed at the time, of establishing the • authenticity of the '. bills in circulation. It appeared to ; him that some notice should be taken of another subject, ' which hid exiCrd''the Government to great obloquy— be ...:Iwthd to the proceedings in the late Exchequer bills transactions, and the examination of the fictitious bills (as we understood). No doubt his Right lion. Friends had given reasons, satisfactory. to the .House, for taking the course they did;. but they also knew that considerable blame %vas thrown - on the Government by perzons in pos session of the bills, and who felt themselves aggrieved at the courge pursued by the Government. lie had no wish :uither to detain the House on the subject. lie concurred in all the observations hitherto made, and he thought the course adopted by his Right Hon. Friend was likdly. to produce satisfactory results. Sir R. PEEL rose to make one remark relative to what had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman, the Member for IFinsbury. , He, said ' the public were quite prepared to gra,::, ildi compensation . to • the bona- fide holders. He (Sir R.lPeel) hoped the' House•would establish no prin ciple vvtaever on. the subject(Hear, . hear)—as it was desirable that they sheidd have a full and searching in quiry into all the circumstances on the-subject. .No principle ought to be established' until they had all the filets olthe case be,Ore them. His Hon. Friend. said that the ho ders of Exchequer bills could_ be charged with gresi negligence; and he said, at the same • time, that there nitight be cases where there might have been actual criminttlity, and . that the •Rouse ought . to establish the facts by making inquiries:- The Hon. Member for Fins bury asked if the inquiry would 'be complete. He (Sir It. Peel) apprehended, that the Corntnissioncrs appointed would have full power to protect the Crown, as - well us guard the interests of .individuals, and the power of call ingtaming the exact facts of the matter.—(l-Year.) m perso ns ,. papees, and records, an d o f asccr - Ire really thought t itwould not be expedi e nt to 'enter - into, further' argument on the subject. as to the manner in which they could ascertain-the • bills to..be .genuine... Neither was it necessary to - 'go - through the exact mode in which the inquiry would . be performed. lie believed the pub lic ware quite 'satisfied that the investi ga ti on was an effectual one. He did hope that• the :froase would studi ously avoid giving any opinion on the subject - of com pensation:;. ' that was a question that must come• f u ll y under; their consideration at a future elate ; he thought they should also abstain from laying, down any principle • till they were in possession .of the.whole.orthe facts. Dr. BOWRING thought the course that had been pursued bY the GovernmentVasimich to be commended, and Bagged to express 'a hope - that - the •cor tun i ss i on woul4 sit immediately, and come to a decision as quickly.; as poOble. - ' • Mr. E. TURNER wished to know what steps they had been taking to ascertain' what bills were forged and ‘vhati . ncrt, because it might be—he did not say that such was the case—that' Rapallo had taken off great quantities of those bills. lie thought it most expedient that the Commission should come to their'dectsion its soon its possible... That decision might be—'.though be did *n• :expect it---that the whole of - the forged bills should be paid ; and if such was the case, some limit • ough4 to be assigned in which parties should come in and Claim payment after. the Commission had come to thiir•deeisio n . TheCHANC ELLOR of the EXCHEQUER saidthat in answer to the question of the Hon. Member for . the to knbw why forged • I West. Riding of Yorkshire (Mr. Wortley), who wished were impounded, lie - bills, when presented at the Exche querthoutt most i xpedient not could . , s o u n c ly h '- a s t n a t t i e m t b h e a r t o i f t t h m o was • ' bills circulate amongst the, public and create confusion; and having beeninformed, by the best lee - al Advice that he could procure, that he was ''' • ' c r justified m impoun mg i those bil4;„ he,iwtnediately „a,l,c direc:tions to impound. .1 Ilion all and retain them, but giving noti c e at th e , same , ' time to the individuals who had possession of theri; - that if they required them for the purl o,e c f prosecutin the ends of justice, either prosecuting the individuals from whom they received them, or any -other persons who might be liable to such prosecutions, they could have ac • cess to those bills: The proof of having given such or ders was, that several parties having taken out some of those bills for the purpose of obtaining the ends of justice; had, by their means, recovered their money from the party from whom they had received the bills, and they afterwards returned them to the Exchequer, where they now were. With respect to the question put by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, he seemed entirely to have misunderstood the object of the Bill proposed to be brought in. The Hon. Gentleman sup posed that the Commissioners would recommend the whole of the bills'to be paid. Now payment of the bills was not a question to be referred to the CommiSsioners. They were to investigate the circumstances of the matter and report the whole for the information of that House, but the question of payment was by no means to come under their consideration. Mr. BLEWITT said .the Right Hon. Gentlethan had not answered his question about the word " forgery" being inserted in the Eight Hon. Gentleman's motion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was perfectly satisfied that no bills were issued but forged ones. When the Bill which he (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer) proposed to'lay on the table of that House came in, if the Hon. Gentle Man thought it necessary to make any alteration in the matter to which he referred, there could be no difficulty in making such alteration. Sir R. H. -INGLIS suggested that the word " issue" should be added before the word " receipt." The SPEAKER having, put the question, Mr. BLEWITT gave notice that when the Right Hon. Gentleman's Bill was brought in he would move the omission :of the word " forged" before the word " _ Mr. KEMBLE thought that he could state certain facts which came to his .knowledge, which would show that it would be much better that the word "repudiated" should be inserted instead of the word" forged."' The CHANCELLOR o f the EXCHEQUER thought it would be the better way to postpone the discussion on these points at present. It was getter that the title of the Bill should reMain as it now stood. When it was intro duced the matter could be discussed ; and afterwards, if it seemed necessary, the title could b altered. But that he did not wish to trespass .on the time of the House, he thought he • could give good reasons to show why the word 4 repudiated" was not the best t erm to be inserted. Mr. ;'repudiated " supported - the suggestion. - The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not think that the adoption of the phrase alleged to be forged would be an improvement, for many real Bills might be alleged to be forged. Let him bring in the Bill, and they might consider the title afterwards. At present he would adhere to his own title, but as soon as it was found to be wrong he should willingly alter it. The motion was agreed to, and Bill ordered to be brought in. thought it would be unwise to press the mction on the Government. He had another (Meet in seconding the motion, which was to state to the House his entire con= currence in the iew=s of the Hon.. 'Gentleman when he stated that railway communication would be of infinite benefit to Ireland. He (Mr. Shaw) should be very sorry 'to let an opportunity slip for promoting a measure which was of real and permanent interest to Ireland, an d in which no party feelings were involved. With regard •to the particular object now brought before the House by the Hon. Gentleman opposite he would not endea vour to prevent him pressing his measure, but he must say, front all inf.,rmation he had collected on the subject; as well from the Reports of the Railway Commission as from the -Report of the Committee of the House, he did believe that a system of railways might be introduced with the hest possible effect into Ireland, provided it were a combined, general, and economical system, in opposition to the system as undertaken by pri• vate bodies at present.—( Hear.) He thought that the question as to whether the system would be retnu nerattve or not, wood turn on the fact of the manner in which they were conducted—combined or not. If Gocern ment would introduce such a measure, and enact the necessary l i preliminaries, and, being combined'as he said before, th.it is to say, by having a common station in Dublin, and a part of the line, say eight or ten miles common to all the line, no doubt the measure would be remunerative, but it would only depend on whether it were conducted on that principle or by private body. He thought nothing should be done till the whole subject was properly before the House. There was another point, to which, however, he should not refer at length, relative to the increased facility of cominunicatlon between Ireland and the metropolis; birt he wouM say that the whole journey from London to Dublin might be performed in the time now consumed in the passage from Liverpool to Dublin, which was fourteen hours. The House had lately expended Considerable sums in improving harbours; &c., to facilitate this communication, and he thought they were aware of the great importance of making the communication as expeditious as possible. He thought the dangerous communication between Liverpool and Dublin ought to be put an end to as soon as possible. He thought if a communication were effected by rail road through Wales, thereby having long land travelling and a short sea voyage, the best results would take place.— ( Hear, hear.) He was convinced if the Government could be prevailed on to cons Per of the improvements that might be effected by a general system of *railWaYs throughout Ireland they would be secured a full return in the way of public economy, by saving, iii Post-office corn. munications and other Government objects, a sum-consider ably greater than any they would be called hpon to expend in promoting the object he was desirous to see advanced. lie thought his Friend should allow the Government to have an opportunity of looking further into the subject. If he refused his request, then he should ask his Noble Friend, the Secretary for Ireland, not to come to any positive decision on the subject. Mr. REDINGTON must say that the Right Hon. Geri _ _ _ . leman had backed his friend in a very indifferent manner. 1 hey were there for the purpose of affirming or negativ:ng the , present motion. Before he sat down he would allude to a , petition which he had presented to the House from •parties connected with the Railroads be ween Belfast and Lurgan, Dublin and Drogheda. Those parties did not seek immedia.e pecuniary aid from the Government. What the public wanted was that the Government should give a guarantee of 4s. per cent. for hal the capital that the former should advance, and then they would give the Government the entire control of the system. He also hoped that the Govern ment would enable the Proprietors to get their Bills cheaply through Parliameni ; for it would be impossible for any Irish Company to encounter such expense as the London arid, Bir mingham Railway had had to pay. Considering. the position in which recent measures placed Ireland, and that they did not make a large demand on the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he (Mr. Redington) hoped the present application would be agreed to. - Lord ELIOT thought there was a great discrepancy be tween the motion of the Hon. Me.nber for Roscommon and his speech. The gist of the latte: was, that no other means would do if the Government would not first take up the ques tion. Pe (Lord Eliot) felt himself in a difficult position, feel ing that if he objected to the proposition, he might be consi dered to undervalue the importance of railways to Ireland; ,whereas he thought no such thing. While he admitted that rapidity of communication was net of such ,importance in an , aesicultural as in a commercial and, manufacturing country, still he would say that the introduction of railways would confer great advantages on Ireland; not the least of which would . 1 e the employment and encouragement it would give to the labourers of that country. This latter benefit he was most anxious to assist in introducing. The Hon. Gentleman then referred to the position in which this subj et stood in 1839 ; and as re spected the Noble Lord who preceded him (Lord E.) in the office he had the honour to fill, no one felt more pleasur, than he (Lord E.) did in bearing testimony to the talents and ami able character of the Noble Lord, whose conduct and bearing had earned the just good wishes of all classes of the community, amongst whom none were more willing than his Lordship's po litical opponents to acknowledge the kindness of his heart and the generosity of his disposition. 11;s Noble predecessor, in the year 1839, proposed a plan to the House, the object of which was to recognise the principle that the Government should undertake the construction of .railways in Ireland. It was true there was some sort of security proposed to the Go vernment on the county cess of the counties through which the railways would pass. If the le turns from the railways should not prove sufficient to pay the interest of the money advanced, it was proposed that the deficieney should be made up from the county cess. He had no wish to goback to the consideration of the question in detail, .but as it had been made part of the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman, be (Lord E.) must say that he considered that species of security little better than illusory. -If a period of general distress should arise in Ire land no Government could come upon the counties to re imburse those advances,, and he doubted whether many of the counties would not hesitate before they consented to such terms. Dr. Griffiths 'calculated that the charge for railways upon counties through which they might pass would vary from ted. to 2s. an acre. f he. present county cess amounted to from 3s. 6d. to 4s. an acre, and, by the proposed plan, the liabilities of the counties _would be considerably increased. The whole of the county cess was defrayed by the occupying tenantry. fie ikocr u.,t what arrangement it might be props-ed to make on this subject between the owners and the occupiers of land, but, unless some arrangement were made, the whole expense would fall upon the occupier, who would derive little or no advantage from the railway. It was true that Parliament hail affirmed the proposition of the Noble Lord by a majority of 44, but so coldly had that proposition been received that the Noble Lord had t ken no lurther steps to carry it into effect. Thus matters rested from 1839 to 1841. Last year the Noble Lord had brought forward a stew proposition, the principle of which he (Lora Eliot) considered unobjectionable. It was merely a plan to facilitate the bringing together of the capitalists, and the persons connected with the district, and the only duty of the Government was to take care that the terms agreed upon between them should be fair and reasonable. But from what he had seen and heard in Ireland, he thought there would be great hesitatiori on the part of the counties before they acceded to the proposition. He would not say that if it were modified it might not be acceded to, but as it stood at present, he doubted much if the counties would accede. The proposition, as he understood it, was, that an amount of 4 per cent., should be guaranteed on the part of the counties, any surplus funds being to be divided equally between the county and the Company. He had already said that the proposition would entail great liabilities on the counties, and that great objection would be entertained to it in many of them. He would not shelter him self by saying that the Government had the measure under consideration—( Hear, hear)—nor raise illusory expectations. —( Hear, hear,) But he thought it sight to say that the Go vernment would not make any advance of public money, or give the guarantee which was proposed by the Gentleman who had last addressed the House. There were, however, other modes of facilitating and assisting railway enterprise, which the Commissioners pointed out, and which the Government thought it would be proper to adopt. The Commissioners recommended the Legislature to assist any body of capitalists that might come together for the 'purpose of promoting rail ways in Ireland, by relieving them from unnecessary, liabilities, and by establishing one fixed and uniform system of compensa tion, with less regard to the extravagant demands of private interest than bad prevailed in this country, and facilitate the Parliamentary proceedings with the, least pessible expense; that they should also be . protected from the ruinous competition of rivsl companies. To that extent the Government was dis posed to assist —( Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had referred to Fiance and Belgiuni. But the case of France did not apply to this country. '1 he system observed in France had alwa3s been opposed to that of this couatry. All the great public works in France were undertaken by the Government, and private competition was almost wholly unknown.—( Hear.) Belgium was a small country, and the expenses of the railways were easily,ascertained. But that would not be the case in Ireland, where the railways recommended by the Commissioners to be undertaken in the first instance, would cost three millions. The Hon. Gentleman talked of the refusal of England to give that aid to Ireland to which he said she was so well entitled. But he (Lord Eliot) thought the best' mode was adopted by the Government of investigating the subject. They had em ployed eminent engineers to make a survey of the country, and the results of their inquiries was placed in the hands of private persons, who would thereby be the better able to estimate the advantages of railroads, which would facilitate their enter , prises. The Hon. Gentleman said that capitalists would not invest their capital in Irish railroads, but lie (Lord Eliot) could inform him, on the best authority, that the shares on the Dublin anti Drogheda line, and also those on the Ul ster line, were better paid by the Irish sharcholdets than toe shares in England were. No shares 'had been for feited in Ireland, whereas a great many had been forfeited in England. The Hon. Gentleman then alluded to the enor mous increase of the imports and exports in Ireland; but it appeared to him (Lord Eliot), that such an increase in the' imports and exports was no argument for the intervention of Government with regard to railroads, because those imports and exports had increased without any aid from Government. He thought that he would only be holding out a delusive hope to the people of Ireland if he consented to the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman. He was aware that the course of conduct pursued by the Government might he fable to some misappre hension, but he thought it better to meetthe proposition of the Hon. Gentleman by moving . the previous question than by ac -ceding to the proposition to encourage expectations which might never be fulfilled.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. O'CONNELL said the Noble Lord had spoken with candour. He held out no hope of railroads for Ireland, and 'thereiore be did not bring forward anything that would lead them to expect something when there was nothing intended.— ( Hear, hear.) They now knew that Government would do nothing. They said they were right in doing nothing, and whether right or wrong they would persevere. The Noble Lord went en to disparage the agreement of the counties and the mode of levying the tax. But this mode was perfectly familiar; and the more so because all public works in Ireland had been erected by that very tax, and the advances made by the Goverernment had been. all p a id by means of that tax. Next, as to what the Noble Lord had stated respecting some of ti,e counties not being likely to give their consent. He had received information on this point,' which led him to think that the Noble Lord's belief was not accurate. He had reason to !now that most of the counties were perfectly ready to come into the agreement. In most• of the counties on the , different lines, the Grand Juries had actually declared their assent to the mode proposed. In some conni leg. the Grand Juries had made no declaration at all, but be thought he was boane out in saying that no Grand Jury had declared against it. Oa this point he thought the Noble Lord laboured under a mistake. if the counties were testedto-morrow, the result would prove to be as he had • stated with regard to Grand Juries. If it were the quest ion whet her the counties should be absolutely liable, it would raise a different consideration ; but the entire revenue of the line, whatever it might be, would be the first protection to the country, and if they were only borne ouS by a Government guarantee, there was no in obability that the counties would - be called on for a single shilling; on the contrary, the rate of profit had been esti mated so low by the Commissioners, tl at it was impossible to have any railroad that should pas; any of the principal towns, but it would produce that rate of interest, especially if the lire was constructed under Government superintendence, without the waste of expenditure of private railways, on the Drogheda line, which bad been referred to, the expense of passing the Bill was 36,0001., and the whole of that expense, under Go , vernment management, would be spared. He confessed that he could not agree with the Hon. Gentleman who bad spoken before him, with respect to Government superintendence cf railways. One great evil of railways in England was, that wherever there was a railroad, there was a monopoly. and amp !' nopoly without yemedy, for there could not be any rival line on 1 account of the expense. It was a constitetionalprinciplein Fong land, that the road MIS the Queen's highway, but they had introduced an anomaly into their system by giving the highways of England to public Companies. Now, Ireland wes as yet untoniched, and though of course, he sheauld prefer the lines to be under the manage ment of a Government more friendly to Irelihd, yet, what ever the Government might he, he thought it would be ah ad= vantage if the railroads of the country could be put under Go vernment 'inspection and Government responsibility. They did not call on this country for any money to be advanced ; they only asked for a guarantee upon ample security. The expence of obtaining an Act of Parliament would be entirely done away with, and there would be an opportunity of-,making the road in the cheapest possible manner, vi bile no roads would be constructed but such as would be likely to be useful, as d which would have a probability of a return for the outlay upon them. The Noble Lord had spoken of the advantage Ireland would derive from the able Report of the Commissioners, and the convenience it would be if railways should hereafter be c nstrucsed. But of what use was an excellent Report if it was to he followed by wo consequence ? ( Hear, hear. ) The Report bad an effect, and a very prejudicial one; it esti mated the profits of those undertakings so ow that nobody would venture to embark his capital in them. The Report stated that no more than 6 per cent. could be expected to be reaLzed (corn the expenditure, and that statement had thrown a damper upon private speculation. The Noble Lord, the late Secretary for Ireland, did not persevere with the measure he had introduced, not that he disapproved of the plan, but be catoe he foresaw that with the opposition given to the measure in that House, it was not likely to succeed elsewhere. The Noble Lord had, consequently, abandoned his own thorough conviction that it would be moat advantageous to have the plan carried out in Ireland. He (Mr.. O . C. ) had only, in condo sion, to express his regret at what he had heard that evening, and to implore his Hon. Friend not to press his motion. Lord ELIOT said in explanation, that he doubted whether it would be expedient, in the event of the failure of the railways, to come upon the occupiers in the counties. With regard to the Grar.d Juries, it appeared to him that they were not al ways to be considered to speak the sentiments of the tenantry. Captain JONES said that he did not think that the Govern ment would find that the rate.payers in counties would consent to be taxed, even though such were the wish of the Grand Juries. Mr. S. O'BRIEN thought that the Government ought to take up the subject, because the Government would be anxious to gise convenience to the public at the. smallest cost, while private individuals would do the most they could to obtain the' greatest profit. The expense of conveying the mails on rail ways would have been saved, if this system attic formation of railways had been adopted. If they had to begin again the sys tem of railways in England, he should say that it would be the most politic course for the country that such principal lines as the Great Western, and the Birmingham ought to be opened at the national ex pense. With respect to Ireland, there were oilier considera tions which, although they might be forgotten in this country, were not forgotten in Leland. Those who• like him ( Mr. Smith O'Brien) were favourable to maintaining the union be-- tweet' Ireland'and this country, said that the United Parliament ought to legislate for Ireland in the same manner as her own Parliament would have done.—( Hear, hear.) Now with re gard to this question, the circumstances of England and Ire land were not analogous. In England there wrs a large Fur plus capital. In Ireland all the capital that could he com manded could be advantageouslfotpplied to the cultivation and draining of the land, and therefore it was not a use ful application of capital to embark in railways.—( Hear. ) It was the duty of Government to assist the people of Ireland in carrying a general line of railways through that country, and he (Mr. O'Brien) maintained that it was also the interest of the Government to do so ; that both countries would be approxi • mated by such a measure; that Lancashire and Yorkshire were equally interested with any part of Iceland—( Hear, hear.) — and certainly when 6,000,0001. or 7,00,000/. would give a gene ral line of railways throughout. all parts of Ireland, that sum was so insignificant that, in ills opinion, it should not be spoken of at all by the Government. So far as the county which he represented was concerned, he felt it his duty to bring the matter under the consideration of the Grand Jury at the last. Assizes of Limerick, and they expressed .the most anxious wishes that a general system of railways should be undertakerS as soon as possible. A ter a few words in explanation from Mr. SIIAW, Sir H. PEEL said, he inferred from the speech of the Hon. Gentleman who had brought forward the motion, that his object was to recommend the Government to undertake a system of railways in Irelend 'at the public expence, and that they would advance a sum of money to carry out those objects. Through out the whole of the Honourable Gentleman's speech, that appeared to be his object. However, he (Sir R. Peel) was bound to suppose, from the Right Hon. Gentleman's dis claimer that he had no such intention, that he did not mean those expenses should be borne by the public, but that they should be undertaken by private individuals. When it was stated that an advance of public money was an insuperable objection, the Hon. Gentleman ( Mr. French) said, with correctness, that it was not his intention that those works should be done at the public expense ; but he (Sir R. Peel) should say that he thought that disclaimer of the Hon. Gen tleman also at variance with the context of the Hon. Gentle man's speech. If there were any doubts upon the subject, the motion of the Hon. Gentleman itself had completely sit them at rest ; because the Hon. Gentleman did not .propose that an address should be proposed and voted by the House itself, but that the House should resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, for the purpose of preparing an address to the Crown—for the preparation of an address where money formed no object. The whole House was the proper authority to address the Crown, but a Commit tee of the whole House was 'the proper authority where any pecuniary demand was sought to be granted ; and, therefore, again he said, it he argued from the speech of the Hon. Gentleman, lie should have thought that an advance of money was his object. He (Sir R. Peel) granted that if party considerations could have influenced her Majesty's Go vernment, that should have been, of all others, the very pro position in which, as a party movement, it should be his studs to acquiesce.—(Cheers from the Ministerial benches, and ironical cheers from the Opposition.) He had no doubt that if her Majesty's Goveinment had said at once that they were ready to undertake a system of railways, in Ireland, that they would have conciliated a great number of supporters amongst the Irish Representatives.—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) But in the vresent state of the finances of this country, would the Hon. Gentleman say that 6,000,000/. or 7,000,000/. could be a matter of such insig nificance, or so utterly unworthy of thought, that her Ma jesty's Government should beat once ready to undertake and become the makers of such an extetisive system of railways. If he (Sir R. Peel) thought the Government could honestly incur such a risk in the present state of the finances of the country, and if it was a matter of indifference to them whether they undertoek a fresh expenditure, no doubt the Government might have conciliated a considerable number of valued sup porters ; and therefore if her Majesty's - Ministers had not taken that course, it proved they were actuated by far better mo tieee.—( Ministerial cheers.) He declared most 'sincerely that if he thought such an expenditure could be encountered with profit—if he really did believe that the under taking by the Government to snake 540 miles of railways in Ireland would be for the permanent and real advantage of Irelaad, mar.y of his scruples would be thereby removed ; but he be- Revert it would be for'the real interest of that country that Irish gentlemen should act on the principle which had been attended yvith such satisfactory consequences an England—( Hear,'shear)i-2thiC it Would •be infinitely better if they were uuderiaken by private speculation. He really did think that when Hon. Gentlemen asked for public money that they did not ask for what would be advantageous to that country. When he looked at the whole history of the Irish Parliament, whose experience they (the Government) were now asked to follow—when he considered the grants of that Parliament, and when he recollected the giants to the Royal Canal, the Grand Canal, the Tyrone Canal, and the Shan non Navigation, he knew what would be the consequences. Mr. FRENCH was understood to say that some of those undertakings were not at the public expense. Sir ROBERT PEEL said that surely the Tyrone Naviga tion was undertaken at the public expense, to afford facilities far the working of the collieries on account of the exaggerated statements then wade of the value of the coal mines. He would undertake to assure the House that if those things were left to private speculation tie individuals engaged in them would weigh accurately the possibilities of remuneration and in terest for the capital expended, and then no doubt they would net be undertaken, .unless there were very good grounds i mnd recommendsu to hope for success ; but h e should say y the them m to of that to advise her Majesty's Government to expend to ex 6.000,000/. or 7,000,0001-, an undertake that extensive system of railways at an expense that probably might not be r emunerative—after bringing to. ether an immense congregation of labourers—and then a . ter giving undue incentives to exertion upon their part, it would be a weakness, and would only increase the evils and distre-s which they attempted to remove. The Hon. "Gentleman said that he..( Sir R. Peel) had in 1839 opposed the scheme proposed by the late Government for the introduction of railways in Ireland. It was quite true he had done so ; and he had then acted on the very same principle upon which he now acted. If there was a certainty that those railways in Ireland would pay the amount expended upon them, it might be different ; but if not, he very much doubted the policy of the G overnment interfer ing in them, c r of forcing on speculations'of that description ; they would not repay the expenditure. They had all the ex • perience of England to direct them in the matter, and no doubt they would cerive the greatest advantage from it. Why ' did not the gentlemen of Ireland determine upon one line of railway—suppose from Dublin to Cork or Limerick—then it would be quite fair to give such advantages or facilities as Government suPerintendenee could afford, if they wished it. They had the land in Ire land already surveyed. They had their plans made out, and a country particularly favourable in point of geological ad vantages. Why not then leave the matter to themselves ; first, were the proprietors willing to permit their lands to be taken upon a different principle from that usually adopted in this country ? Were they willing to permit a valuation etf them to be made, not accoseling to the estimate of the proprietor, but upon some fixed principle, as in Russia or Prussia? if the pro prittors wre not willing to do that, ho should tell the House that the Government woo d have very great difficulty in seizing upon the land, of any gentlemen, and forcing them to part with them. If proprietors of land were willing that their own arbitrary estimates should not be acted upon, that might indeed afford a great facility. If the price of those lands were to be fixed or determined, suppo .e by Government Commissioners —here again, for instance, would be the means of profiting by the experience which they had of railways in England, by taking a price that would compensate fur the lands, and prevent, very great exactions; the country might profit by that experience, and might thereby avoid many of the evils and embarrassments which had arisen in England. Surely the competency of the people of Ireland to undertake these works were not denied? . If they resolved upon one line of communica tion and forgot political or party divisions, and the asperities to Which they led—if the people of Ireland applied themsel es in downright earliest to enter upon those speculations they would —they must succeed.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Hon. Gen tlemen on the opposite side admitted in their speeches in this House ' that the resources of Ireland are rapidly increasing that they are improving every day—that their agricultural pro duce is, increasing—shoiving that they could rely upon their own native resources. Why, then, did they'ask for needl ess a s s'stance from the Government? Could not the people of Ireland: show that they were equal to the task which the people -of England and Scotlan d hail accomplished 2 ( ilear,diear.) Let the people of Ireland, in the first in t ense , prove by the tranquillity of their country, th a t cap i ta li sts could safely expend their capital there. But then it was sad that went of tranquillity, and the heat of agitation, prevented capitalists from speOulating with their capital its Ireland. But if that country were perfectly tranquil—if its people were united; tog, ther for their mutual advantage, the money those ; capitalists (who, as the Honourable Gentleman oppoate said, were overflowing with wealth, and seeking out remote quarters of the world wherein to apply it with advan tage) when they had reason to suppose that their soccula tions would be good in Ireland; it might be depended upon that, mercy would flow into that country in great abundance. What, fur instance-, was the account of the Railway Commis sioners with reference to the railway already completed in Ir. - un A de n rta l k l e o n N ,.he m b E tl t i tt ev a e a d, n b n y t p h r e iva o t p e p i o n s d it i e v land--,the Dublin and Kingston Rail wa y ? Th a t was a ra il wa y under stood to say, that the Gove rnment had ad i v (bl an ueal c il e csh d . ' ilo m n . e a y s for that railway. . Sir,R• PEEL said that nil have been ; however, the re port lo which he th en a ll u d e d was t h at o f a C o mpany relying upon their own. resources. Ile ree,ollected per fectly, well when Lord Morpeth was about to introduce an extensive Government sc h eme - of railways—when he lisd se lece:la railway irom Dublin to'Cork, to be executed b y the Govetnment—he had met willeo great deal of oppositi on fr orn Govetnment in other parts of the country, who said that was not fair to select one single line of railway—that nojing could be done unless three .lines were commenced tha 3,800,000/. should not be expended in the complex tion of one line, but that a sum of money should be advanced for the commencr merit of three n et' lint& He (Sir R. Peel) thought that the consequence would be, that there would be imputations upon the impartiality of the Government; and, so far from giving satisfaction, it would be said that there should he some other lines selected. Taking advantage, then, of all the errors in the completion of railways in England, and having the advantage of any assistance which Government could give in seeing those works properly conducted. and in malting new a•rangernents-with respect to the purchas* of land, and affording facilities tier the purpose of preventing enormous expenses, he (Sir R. Peel) did not despair that Ire land would easily, by the assistance of the Irish and English capital be capable of conducting railway speculations to a satisfactory issue. His proposition was not founded upon any indifference or hostility to Ireland, but under a real and conscientious belief that the interference of Government would only check the enterprise of private speculation, and be an im pediment to the success of the undertaking. The SPEAKER then suggested that unless a grant'of pub re money was wanted, the terms of the motion, "that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House" should be omitted. _ Sir R. PEEL submitted that the House should guard most strictly against the principle of establishing a precedent by ap proving of that mode of s.rginating giants of money. Mr. WAKLEY said the Government was placed in a very awkward situation when they refused so reasonable an application as that made by his Bon. Friend (Mr. French). He hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would act on his own re commendation with respect to Ireland. It was in the power of the House to make Ireland prosperous. It was not neces sary that there should be a grant of money to carry out this recommerdation. It was only necessary for the Right Hon. Baronet to act fairly to Ireland—to give them social rights and privileges equally with the people of this country. By this he would carry out the resolution. He did hope the Right Hon. Baronet would not forget his own recommendation, but that he would set to work, and give to Ireland the benefits which this ceuntry at present enj- , yed. Lord S. RUSSELL rose, but was for a considerable time inaudible in the gallery. He was understood to say, that he did not object to the form of the motion before the House, but he thought the Government ought not to make any publ c grants fur the firrnation of railways in Ireland. He did not think that it was well for the Minister of the Crown to grant money under any circumstances to particular branches of the community; but when grants were made, they should consider the benefit of all. He thought, therefore, that the House of Commons ought to be much more disinclined to make grants of money than they had of late years. He thought this argument told not only in the present case, but against many motions of pact years. ( The Noble Lord here spoke so low a tone of voice as to be almost inaudible in the gallery.) On the 30th of June, 1841, a motion was made that the House should resolve itself into a Committ. e of the whole House, to consider an Address to her Majesty, stating to her Majesty the blessings the country enjoyed under the Established Church — (Laughter)—and to assure her Majesty that it was the duty of the Government to employ a cos tam portion of the wealth of the country to the extension of the Established Church ; and hutnbly representing that the House would cheer fully accede to such measures as her Majesty should re commend, to enable the people of this country to enjoy the blessings of worship in the Established Church.. For that motion there appeared 149, and against it 168. Had that motion been carried, it would have led to very ; considerable grants. Mr. POWELL, in answer to the Hon. Member for Fins bury, begged to say that the rich landed proprietors in Ireland did not reside in that country, although they received their in comes from it. Mr. FRENCH slid, after what had passed, he weekd with d,aw his motion —Motioa withdrawn. COPY RIGHT BILL. _ _ Lord MIA HON, in moving for leave to bring in a Bill for the amendment of" the law relating to Copyright, said he should not attempt to raise any discussion. The subject had been so frequently discussed in that House, he thought any further discussion would be better reserved for the second read ing of the Bill. He wished only to slate the principal altera tions which he proposed to make. It was provided in the 811 brought in by Mr. Sergeant Tal:ourd that the term of protection should be sixty years, commencing at• the death of the author ; and the Bill he (Lord Mahon) lo tended to introduce reduced the term to twenty-five years. He should also introduce a clause to gua•d against the possible suppression of works by the descendants of the author, by giving a discretionary power to the Legislature. These were the alterations he should introduce into his Bill. . • Mr. WAKLEY thought that twenty-five years would be found as objec.ionable as sixty. He hoped when the Bill was brought fo;ward the No le Lord would be prepared to show why authors should have a different title to dun. works from any other inventor. If the Noble Lord could satisfy ti e House on that subject he wa- quite sure he would be successful. Unless he could satisfy the House upon that point he hoped ho would be unsuccessful. Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. CORN IMPORTATION BILL. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he aid not see First Lord of the Treasury in the House, but he wished to ask when it was proposed that the Corn Importation Bill should be read a second time. Sir G. CLERK said the question would be brought on to-morrow (this day) at five o'clock, when, he doubted not, the Noble Lord could 6.,thin the information he wished. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at Half-past Nine. • MEETING OF THE SOCIETY OF FRIENDS TO FOREIGNERS IN DISTRESS. A meeting of this Society was held yesterday at -the London Tavern, Bishopse-ate.street, for the purpose of receiving the report of the' present year, and of electing pensioners to the funds of the Society. Joins/ . LABOCCHERE, Esq., was called to the Chair. The SECRETARY read the minutes .of the • last -meet ing, and the Report, by which it appeared that the funds of the Society were in a very satisfactory state. After paying all the expenses, Which amounted t o 2,1 . 39/. 12s. 5d., including th e ex p enses for the pen sioners, and for sending home 140 individuals, a balance of 3031. 3s. 9d. remained in the Treasurer's hands. Since the commencement of the Society, relief had been granted in 59,214 cases, at the rate of 1,20c1. per annum. To meet the expenditure, besides the receipts of the annual - dinnei-, which amounted to 1,1601., and the an nual subscriptions received by the Collector, the follow ing donations were received : From her Majesty, 100/. ; Queen Dowager, 10/. 10. s. ; the Queen of Haeover, ICI ; King of the Belgians, 501. ; Duke of Cambridge, - 25/. ; Duchess of Cambridge, 101. 10:4. ; DucheSS of Gloucester, 101 10s. ; Duchess of Kent, la 10s. ; King of Prussia, 5001. The number of eandidateS to be placed on the Pension List amounted to 37, but of these the funds of the So ciety did not permit more than nine to be elected. Tile following is the number of individuals from each country who were relieved •in the last year :—Africa, 74 ; Asia, 18 ; COrsica,.6 ; Denmark, 71 ; France, 141 ; Germany, including Austria and Bavaria, 873 ; Greece, 7 ; Java, 1 •, Italy, 53 ; lonian Islands, 1 ; Netherlands , 311 ; Poland, 49 ;. Portugal, 20 ; Prussia, 201 ; Ragus 4 and Russia, 11 ; Sicily and Naples, 5 ; Spain, 44 ; 'Sardinia and Genoa, 1 ; . Sweden, 77 ; Turkey, 2 ; Switzerland , 40 ; Venice, 11 United States-, 16. Mr. TIARKs moved, and Mr. 1-11EiNINGS seconded, the adoption of the Report, which was passed unanimously . The Rev. Dr. 'SCHWABE moved the thanks o f the Meeting to the Chairman and Treasurer, John La bouchere, Esq., and that he be requested to continue. in the same office for the ensuing year. He was aware 0' the many claims which other duties imposed upon 10 time, and therefore they should be the more e a teful for that time ivhich be devoted to the interests oflteir SocietY• and the benefits which thereby accrued to it. He trusted, however, that lie never would have cause to regret th e sacrifices he made for the interests of the • society, and that while he cell:aimed _to be a benefactor to the diS - . tressed, he might obtain many valuable blessings for hini",. self, and it was their wish that the. Almighty Giver 0' all good.might long preserve and.euable him to continue to be the protector and benelhetor of the Society.—(Hea r.) The motion having been seconded, t The CHAIRMAN said that he thanked‘the meeting Inn s warmly for the kind manner in which his name had been received. lie could assure the meeting 'he felt 9 deep interest in the welfare and success of the Socie t ) (l ' . The - more ne looked into the subject, the' more.convine e „l he felt that the institution had a strong claim upon 9 . " who were interested in the well-being of their fe llo% : creatures. It was at present in a very prosperous cow; dition ; and he was happy to state that they were n o n / obliged to encroach upon their funded capital of 7,75 o f .The. reason was partly owing to• the liberal donation the King of Prussia.—(Loud cheering.) He c ( . )11 ; tributed very liberally to every leading instit une o s in the country, bilt the largest contribution lie made W . lO to that Society, w hich was the more valuable, because it, , y ela a proof of the estimation in which the Society was e es s by that illustrious' individual, who was eminent ne 1 „;,. for his high rank than for the anxious desire he ren - f fested to promote the temoral and spiritual, welfaier,, all.—(cheers.) But notwithstanding that liberal coin bution of the Icing of Prussia, they should keel' I l i. mind that they were not able to relieve all the cants for relief. The number was increasing: f' o year to year, but he trusted that not only by their olio contribe ions, but also by raising up new frie nds . behalf ()I' the Society, they would enable the institution, not only to keep the.number of p ens i oners a t present on the list, bat even to increase that number.—(Hear.) ,he Mr. DoxAT said he could n o t avo id e xpress gratitude 'ne felt for the interest t a k e n in the Inst itt lm by their excellent Ch a i rman , b u t h e cou ld assure - .. ts that much and highly as the lame of Labouchere"E;‘, respected at home, was prized and blessed abreaihile many a foreig ner - w h o expe ri ence d th e benefits o f generosity and .devotion to their cause.—(Chee rs.) The CHAttotAn. said it was gratifying- to anni t le ft that they had received, besides the annuity- of 50 0 ,, i _ by the late Charles Piesoliell, for unsuccessful e t z `„ , dates, 10/. from a lady in Bath .for the shine pu r e Oc t and that Mr. Brandt charged himself with the supPel of another candidate. The Auditors of the last year Were re-VP° i ns t r e t e rez - The following Directors were elected Jon "`" - n Be" hazes, Robert F. Gower,. David Salomon-, U. A. Preller, and J. L. Lemme, Esqrs.: thegeet i n g rr stt rS:treudt.i Scrutineers were then appointed, and , -----_____ . . . ACCIDENT 'TO Mw. JONES, THE COMEDIAN.-7-.l e public will regret to learn that Mr. Jones, for many y , ars u. n .: wet . w'r o rivalled in his line at Covent Garden Theatre, lately an extraordinary and serious accident. Mr. Jones, whi le ool , the act of advancing hastily towards the fire-place , bY 10 ,,, means entangled his foot in the hearth-ruz, and fell bean against the stove, with such violence as to s calp c .nsiderable extent. In consequence of this accident tee t h he been under the constant care of an eminent surgeon tilu,ri„n,' the last fortnight, but we are happy to learn that our 01n dramatic' last the skl as favourite is at lenght convalescent, and will s hortly uul accustomed avocations. Last week the following extraordina r y fortune occurred to Mr. liiddulih, aged 0, tormerlY n3" 11- butcher in Clare-market, but who, from advcrsities had.ned fortunately become so reduced in circumstarces as to be nb ll f,a. to Ilecome an inmate of the union-workhouse,. in °Tome, street, Fitzroy-square. After rema'ning there sou 37, c ope has b e cope of a law-suit terminated in his favour, by Which he Possessed of funded property and estates to the on 9un w ith his atioeney, to take possession 0: his unexpected wealtlreAY 30 . 0001 . We 'n .slay he quitted the workhouse in conll'aq Mr. Loigh, the Mayo? of LiverpOol, who is ''. a w ing reported to be the richest commoner in England, has , i ,_i; w ill ehange,oerf the list month, received an accession of fortune under o : , tha t of sOms old ! F ,4,y, who lived somewhere at the south -GA °1 , town. . - . . RAILWAYS IN IRELAND. • Mr. - FRENCH rose 'to move the following resolu tion t—" That this House do resolve itself into a Commit tee of the whole Muse, for the purpose. of preparing an Address to her Majesty, praying that she would be gra ciously pleased to recommend to Parliament, that such measures shall be taken as may appear most likely .to secure to Ireland the advantages of railway communica tion." He, had. more than once expressed his conviction that unless the• Government undertook the construction of railways in Ireland, that country would remain with out those great advantages ; and the opinion of several eminent practical .men, whom - lie had consulted, was that the Government Ought to take up the question. The questien narrowed. itself to this consideration. Would they refuse to so large x portion of, the empire as Ireland the power of raising sufficient funds on its own credit, to develope its resoarces by the introduction of railroads? ' He would prove there was no hope leA of having railways in Ireland, exeVtthe GovernmeeL carat) forward to lend. them assistance. ' Up to 1838-there had been no less'. than 112 private Ac 3 - passed - for the con st:uction of railways in-England and Wales ; 21 for the construction of railways in Scotland ; and only eight for the construction of rail Ways in Ireland. But Ireland was not'even so well off as might be, imagined from the inspection of these figures ; Cot- out of eight Bills, - ;ive had ,remained unacted on up to the present monieut ; and while the whole of England and Scotland had been traversed by railways, 'in Ireland, a line of seven miles from Belfast to Lurgan; and another of six miles,. from • Dublin to Kingstown, were all that private enterprise had been : able to accomplish. Whether it was that the report of the Railway CominisSioners had un derrated the returns that were likely to be made for. capital invested in railv.-ays, or that capitalists were deterred irpm embarking in such speculations, through ignorance Of the intentions of the Government, he woull -not stop toinquire ; but he would take that opportunity of stating, that , the returns of the profits on the Dublin and - Kingstovn railway, showed that an interest of,B per cent. had been realized on the capital invested. He would 'ow briefly considtT what had been done by 4 11 the late overnment.. in relation - to this subject. Li 1836 they !ad .issued - the -Railway Commission. The Commissioners' wero men of the highest character and of the . greateU scientific - attainments. They' were Mr. Drummond, Dr. Barlow, Sir John Burgoyne, and Dr. ' Griffiths. 'On the 11th of March, 1837, they made their first report, which was • very brief, but contained one recommendation which had the effect of - deterring capi talists froth embarking in railway undertakings in Ire . land. - The reconnujudlui,.. --Was , . That tlye,aectlnn - uf - 1 the great tines should not be kft to private capitalists. That was sufficient to tlestroy the hopes of railway enter prise in that country ; and this gave him a strong claim upon the mnsideration of the house. The .The second re port was thade in June, 1838, and it was attributed to one of the!ablest men of the present age, the late Mr. Drummontl. The report showed that the best way to give Ireland the advantage of a railway sys tem was that the Government should undertake the manfigement, whereby the enormous prelimi nary expenses—law and Parliamentary—and the extravagant compensation paid to owners of land, which were incurred by all the English Railways, would be avoided. The Parliamentary expenses of the English Railways amounted in the aggregate to 1,716,000/. The result waS that the public were obliged to pay 100 per cent. higher under the system pursued in this country than uncle* that pursued In Belgium l4 l a, le m r i a le te fo o r f ..p t i r l a s.. - 3(t., for coa l s fr o m id. v se e n l n e g rs i , n f i o t r h m la e t s te to r n c e o f u r n o t n r i y i d i . % a: , to 4d., and for manufactured goods from 2d. to 6d. Ile trusted that the benefits of such a system would • be ex tended to Ireland—that the errors committed in the con struction of other railroads may be avoided, and that the benefits of railroad communication, with all the ad vantages and improvements-of the best system, combined with a Moderate expenditure, may be secured to her The speculator must be sanguine, in&ed who expected that a railway with two parallel lines of road would, in Ireland, tic - a remunerating one. Still, they ought to ex tend to leland the advantages of the railroad-system. In 1836, his Noble Friend had brought forward his Act for the construction of lines of railroad in Ireland, and obtained the sanction of the Legislature to the expendi ture of two-millions and a half. He hailed the proposal as a haprly omen, and endeavoured to impress on the House, that it would k• a more judicious application o; - that sum; if it was applied to the construction of given portions of three great lines to tie north, south, and west, and to be distributed. among them in equal pro portions. Ile read a resolution of a public meeting, over which the Right Hon. Member for Dublin presided, re- - cOmmending the plan for forwarding three lines of road. The Itou,e would perceive thatu-this :subject had been six years under discussion. How ever much he might regret the late change of Ad- Ministration, he still hoped that the Noble Lord, the a s n ti t d o f e th present Secretary for Ireland, would sho w th e same anxiety which had been shown by his p re d e c essor t o .ce ot of i ng contribute strength communication, d especially, e - to render t h o Irempire.tdan a N source tih advance .the social condition of a country th an improve ments in its means of establishmen t - of railways. The Governments of Russia, Austria, and the United States had devoted their parti cular attention to that subject. In England, there were now 1,750 miles of railway, which had cost 60,000,000/. ; of which 10,000,0001. had been swalloived up Parliamen- - tary expenses, and of - that sum 6-,726,000/ were abso lutely and.unntietssarily thrown away: The most direct and easy mod:: ofcommitniCatiOn would contribute to the mutual advantages of Kith this country and Ireland, and increase that identity of _interest upon which so much dependi the prosperity of tOth 'countries. He trusted that those considerations would have their due weight, and influence upon the mind of the Right Hon.-Baronet at the head of her Majesty's- Government, and that the , Right Hon. Baronet would either adopt those recommen dation. or any other means which might be thought best to promote these objects. There was another fact which he (Mr. French) thought it right to state to the House. Perhaps Hon: Gel - Wen-len were not aware that the • Government in every instance had gained very consider able by the adVances Made from time to time for rail ways. The system of making those advances was this:- 100/., suppose,. was lent, at.s per cent. for eleven years, the Government had-that money for 3 p er cent., which in, eleven years amounted to :W., showing a clear gain of f those facts, and Chancellor of the Exchequer Was aware was not riPir could contradict him (Mr; French) if he 22 per cent. on every transaction of that nature. The showing t. the imports (aln'dheexHpoonrisMoefinihreerl'atlenfroeradar:rty T re c .a n r t oc sr that the than any words could do, how essential it was s interests -of Ireland should he attended to. In propor tion as the resources of Ireland were developed, would the burdens of England. be diminished and those re sources would be speedily and fully deVeloy:d by allow ing them to use, what was - used with no eparm,,, 0- hand in this country; viz, railway, commun iCati• lie felt he ad too - lon trespasr4ed on the time of tIIQ .House, and of -on he should therefore conclude with t he motion which he had giv en notice—a` That - this House do resolve itself g into a Committee of the whole House, for the purpose of preparing an Address to her Majesty, praying that she would be graciously pleased to recommend to Par,- liament, that such measures shall betaken as may appear most likely to secure to Ireland the advantage of railway . communication." The SPEAKER inquired if the motion of the Hon. Member was intended to raise money (as we understood). . Mr. FRENCH said his object was to call the attention of her Majesty's Government t o the subject of Railways in Ireland. Mr. SHAW rose to second' the prop osition. H e had a two-fold obj ect i n v i ew; first, he hoped. that his Hon. Friend would not persist press i ng his motion on h er . M.jesty's Government.—(Loud laughter.) He intended to sup t iort the motion, but he felt that at the present tim considering the great measure to be introduced by bet Majesty's Ministers, and considering that the Go vernment at the present moment were not in - a position to obtain such information as would enable them to come to a satisf:cery conclusion, and considering tha i Fa de cision were taken upon the subject no% it would be un fai-Ourable-JYtile- views' iVhich he (Mr. Shaw) held in common with the Hon. Gentleman, therefore, he NEw N No w read] 1 1 A thore cs of ~ i rY Colb u , II„ z n rzly, in c ~., A] •-orrec k ; 1 ". the nu -l'irf:ffrered of 11 °A 1 A1 n SLAY] THE, Wilt b, - - "nett • _ 0 e( Hero k Pbdew Lboo l t i ; P :; Pe P at Na , e .ec o td., tiNDE / 1 1 F , AT h A }T A Y II b "Peal t art; Y ; 1, sk• aPta ' l 'aty PL/ 1 , n cl t whic o nhtrle ; th e tq e o Yre N. 1(4, I. p t Z l li f n ioe : l l ,ec"4 1)) ;i " " 114 Ilat es e ! 2s, f jr ti leriti• C,* r I t'~ 4 the ir l 'eaP( with A.ro