The Sun. — London, England, 1824-05-12 00:00:00

• 'l4 the state the country - he represented the people as being , fistesal for the happiness they now enjoyed , and as having returned to tobstitutionaiga wholelorne opinions. He sup posed the Right Hon. Secietaty shared those sentiments ; and be would tisk whafadvantage was to be derived from continu ing the punishment of this man ender-the. pisting circum *pees ? He had been willing to believe in the sincerity of the mild and temperate language they had heard, but he wanted to see it illustrated by acts. Mr. JAMES said this was the last case 'of Mitgistrriel op- Passion arising out of the period at which the petitioner had been made the victim of politicaffeeling. The petition did not iiraY for a remission Of the sentence, and, in fact, the prisoner had re fused to petition the Cron for that purpose, when he had been advised Ida° - st. by - those who were ashamed of the pres.sion which he endured. The petitioner only asked the "louse to consider his case, and preferred being a martyr in the cause of truth and justice. . . _ 111 r. Secretary PEEL, saki that the objects of the petition were two-fold. The onerelated to his conduct previous to Ms .1) Tosectition and trial, the other -to the punishment which fol *wed it. Respecting the first; lie Must appeal to the Hon. and Learned Member for the fact of his not having been made acquainted with the petition until yesterday. The time to which it related was four years ago, two years before he had any connection with his leiajesty's Government. The facts, 'consequently, had never come under his official knowledge, nor had he the means of communicating with the -Magistrates' to whom they related, in the shOrt space of time which had inter. versed. He must observe that it was very extraordinary for the complaints of the petitioner to come forward now after haying slept for four years, and that his mere allegations ought -to be taken with some dedectiOns and allowances for exaggera tion. Upon the second part of the petition, he must say that he regretted to see such applications made through Parliament re specting the prerogative of mercy. But as the Judgment of the Secretary of State for the Home Department was necessarily questioned by such applications, he was not the proper person to say much-upon that part of the question. Ile would only mate that he had - net recommended this man as a fit object for the Royal clemency, and that it was not his intention to do so. The prisoner was tried upon five indictments""; the first was for Blasphemy ; the two nett for Seditious Libels ; the next. for a Seditious Conspiracy, and the other for a Blasphemous Libel also. Upon three of these lie was convicted, and the other two were not proceeded with. He was convicted of blasphe mous libel, seditious libel, and sedition ;- and for these three grimes he had received a sentence of imprisonment for four . years and a hill. He was not proceeded against without due notice, and in defiance of all warning he continued the sale -of. the libellous works. He and his father were engaged in the infamous practice of selling blasphemous publications. The. • father lived at Stodkport, and the son was sent to Macclesfield for the purpose of carrying, on the same trade. His wife Was apprehended for the same .affence, but she was liberated Again upon finding that he'had 'forced her to commit it. - He readily exonerated the lion. 'anti Learned Gentleman from any incon sietency in _presenting the petition, after conducting the prosecu tion. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman did conduct the prose cution but' ith not less ability than temperance. He had looked 'at the report of the trial, and he would read a part of the con 'elusion of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's Address to the Jury. " But, Gentlemen; after what I have stated, it will be for you to decide (for you are the only Judges here) 'whether the defendants met for any other- purp,-,e than that of stirring up insurrection against the Government." The Right Hon. Secretary then remarked, that the Hon. and Learned Gentle man had previously delivered his sentiments to the Jury as to the right of free discussion, and read the following conclusion of the speech :—" I have now stated the ease fully and fairly, for I never will hold langeage different from that you have heard as to the right of free discussion in the people." The conduct of the prisoner upon his trial was alio most indecent. After his sentence was passed he insulted the Court by hold ing up his hat, and making some very indecorous remark to this effect :—" Well, I'm pretty well satisfied, for I thought you'd hang me." He did trot mean to say that these things would justify an aggravation of punishment, but they were deserving of consideration hi reference to the question of ex tending mercy. to the party. When, therefore, he considered the circumstances under which the petitioner had been con victed, and the nature of his conduct upon and after his trial, he should be content with stating that he had not felt himself warranted in recommending the remission of any part of his sentence, and further, that it was not his intention to do in. Mr. HUME was sorry to - hear the opinion which the Right Hen. Gentleman entertained upon the case of the petitioner. The. first charge upon which he was convicted was a blasphe mous libel. Why, what was a blasphemous libel ? The petitioner did not know the contents of the book, or its title. lie always should object to such persecutions for matters of 1 opinion, and hoped the time was not far distant when they would be discontinued. Mr. SYKES was of opinion, notwithstanding what had fallen from the Right lion. Gentleman, that the case of the petitioner deserved consideration, and that the remainder of ete-e-ia-ee renamed. , Mr. Secretary PEEL explained. Ine Petition was then read. ;Zr. J. WILLIAMS, in moving that it be ordered to lie on the table, said that he had confined himself in his statement to the sentence passed on the petition, and had not gone into the circumstances anterior to the trial. lie thought it was a case for mercy. • The petition, after a few words from Mr. Secretary PEEL, wita.ordered to be printed. i Tilecsage.from the Lords here announced their Lordships' assent to several Bills. lord sT A Y presented a petition .. from 'Warrington against the Beer Regulations ; and a similar petition from Charley: . _ Air. tit - ATER presented a similar petition from Portsea. Mr. L. FOSTER presented a petition from several Attor. nits of Ireland complaining of the duty upon their annual liv?n max. Mr.. 1.. 1 7 -OSTR. also presented a petition from Ardee, against the bonding of Wheat. .Lord G. LENNOX presented a Petition from Chichester, against the 'Hides and Skins Bill. W. DUNDAS presented .3 petition from Edinburgh, against the Assessed Taxes; and several Petitions from Edin burgh against the Scotch Poor Bill. Uir. H. K. WlLSON.presented a Petition froni St. Alban's, against the Ber Regulations. NEGRO SLAVERY, Sir M. W. RIDEEi presented a Petition from Newcastle, agitinst Negro Slavery; and for the extension of the measures of Government to all the Colonies. He was sorry to dissent from so reany of his constituents, but he thought they would beet promote the interest of those whose cause they advocated, by leaving the subject in the bands of his Majesty's Govern ment, for further discussion of it at present, would, he thought,. be most mischievous. The Honourable Baronet presented a similar petition from Alawiek, a petition from Newcastle against the Beer bill, and -a petition from Bridport in favour of it. Bit. C[IRWEN presented a petition from Cumberland against Negro •Slavery ; another from Cockermouth ngeinst the Hides and Skins Bill; and another from the Bankers and - others of Cockermouth; praying that they might act as Notaries Public. Mr. LA WLEY _presented a petition from Birmingham, • against the Beer Bill. Mr. BAGWELL presented a petition from Clogheen against - any alteration in the Corn Laws. Colonel O'NEILL presentfid a petition from Antrim against 'the repeal of the Linen Bounties. Lord BINNING presented a petition from several Officers of the Court of Session in Scotland against the Stamp Duties. Mr. S. RICE presented a petition from Tipperary against the Tithe Bill of the last Session, and praying that it might be altered. lie was happy to say he thought there appeared a die position on the part of Government to make the necessary al terations. Captain BRUCE presented a petition from Alio& against Negro Slavery. : Mr. iticF, presented a petition from W Carmarthen praying for the Repeal of the indow Tax. AIL JONES presented a similar petition also from Car ,:extart>.en. Mr. B. WILBRAHAM presented a petition from Dover in -favour of the Hides and Skins Bill. The above petitions were ordered to lie on the table. ' OUTRAGES IN IRELAND. Mr..JOI SMITH presented a petition from an indivi 'dual named "Maccartet, complaining of injuries. which he (Mr.. S.) thought could be committed no where but in Span or I re . land. In 1.1322 his cottage was broken open y ou forty Mtn ruffians and burnt, and 'he, his brother, his wife and chi - severely cut and otherwise wounded. The affai r was taken up the Magistrates, and several individuals were apprehended ; lent although the offence was 'a capital felony they were ad mitted to bail, and subsequently brought to trial and acquitted. 'Three of them afterwards applied to him for certain costs un der the indictment, and distrained a cow for their payme nt.— die was lihnseKshortly afterwards accused of an assault on se veral of thes e persons, was convicted, and sentenced to six emontlis imprisonment. The prayer of the Petition was some what informal, as it asked the House to call for the notes of die Judge who tried the cause. In cases finm Ireland, Mr. Smith observed, it wag Moult to ascertain the facts, as there were enerally many xeneradietion e b etween t h e diff eren t p ar ties. But he 'had, in the present instance,•rnade inquiries which led ,• him to believe that the facts were correct; and that the peti ',toner's sufferings were attributable to political circumstances. —But there was always more tranquility where there were no' political - societies whatever. A.Aember, whose name we could not ascertain, spoke in de fence of the conduct of the Judge. He defended the Orange Societies, and thought a Protestant and an Orangeman_ were the same thin. —(Hear, and a laugh.) Lord MILTON begged to defend the great body of the Irish Protestants against the charge brought against thenahy the Honourable Gentleman. It was a charge that they belonged to associations of a seditious nature,. which ought to be put down; and which the Government had declared ought to be discouraged. Mr. Secretary CANNING thought the Noble Lord had misunderstood the Honourable Gentleman. He (Mr. C.) did not undertand the Honourable Gentleman to speak in con demnation of those Protestants Aim did not belong to Orange Societies. Mr. GOVLBURN also thought the Noble Lord had mis, understood the Hon. Gentleman. With regard to the particu lar ease mentioned in the Petition, he had heard some of the ,circumstances; but he had not heard of the trials, though he ,had no doubt they were properly conducted. Mr.. PLUNKETT said, the circumstances had been laid before him, and he had directed an inquiry, the result of which : was that - the parties were prosecuted at the expence of the Government. In their defence before the Magistrates, they alleged that the Petitioner had committed the first oat -rage against them ; but on their trial they offered evidence of an alibi. The Hon. Member must certainly have been mis informed as to the costs. It was impossible that they could have been chargeable to the Petitioner. He did not think the circumstances sufficiently strong to warrant ti proceeding against the Magistrates, though he did not,entirely approve of their conduct. _ _ _ _ _ The petition was ordered" to lie on the table. Mr. J. SMITH did not think the Irish Government had 'done all in their 'wer to puni3:l the perpetrators of these out. Tatress Mr.'DOHERTY denied that there was the least foundation for a slur upon the.administration of justice in Ireland. He never, in a professional experience of 1 7 yea rs, knew of. a po litical distinction being made on the Bench.---alear !) Mr. FITZGE:RALD said, the statement ".made by the At torney-General for Ireland afforded an additional argument for the putting down of political societies. It appeared that the prisoners had first admitted and justified the charge, and after wards had suceessfullyiwt up an alibi: He denied that the Hon. Member who prMated the petition had said a syllable in the way of imputation on the adtninistration of justice in Ire land. For his part be would say, that althriugh he admired the institution of !trial by Jury, he would rather, in a case wherein religious hostility was involved, intrust his life to a Judge than to a Jury. Mr. DOHERTY explained. • Mr. Secretary PEEL trusted-the ; petition - would not be printed, until there was time to make inquiry into the facts of the case. He did not, however, see what other coarse could have been taken by the' Irish overnment to promote justice, than that which they had taken. Mr. GRATTAN Raid he feared it was too true that there were party Juries in Ireland. Mr. J. SMITH explained. Mr. CALCRAFT thought the case was one which called for inquiry. The motion for printing the petition was then withdrawn. CAVAN ELECTION. Mr. ABERCRO3IBY presented a petition from several' Freeholders of Cavan, complaining that the freedom of election had been violated during the late election for the county. The Sheriff, it was said, had notified the election by a placard, Which had a figure of King William on horseback, and other Orange insignia at the head. They said also, that the place of election was surrounded by Orangemen ; that the . voters of the unsuccessful candidate were insulted, and compelled to apply l i even to their Sheriff for protection A man's life was lost in the struggle, and a speech was offered to the people by one of the Magistrates to' the Orangemen, saying that " they were a legalized constitutional body." This was not the first provocation which the Petitioners had received on similar occasions. On a former one, a County Meeting to address the Lord Lieutenant, the Orangemen so conducted them selves that the then Sheriff was obliged to dissolve the meet ing. The Petitioners prayed that the Sheriff might be called to account for his conduct; and that they might be protected in the enjoyment of such rights as the Constitution allowed them. He (Mr. A.) wished to know how many persons were on the panel of the Jury, which became necessary in conse quence- of the loss of' life to which he had alluded ; how many of those were Catluelics, and how many _ Protestants ; how many of each were sworn ; and whether those who were sworn were persons whose names were originally on the panel. In conclusion, he observed, that he was not for put ting down any Society merely on grounds relative to political or religious opinion, but solely on account of their conduct. 31r. MAXWELL, as Member for the county of Cavan, produced a copy of the only paper which was sanctioned by the Sheriff at the klection. It was a paper with only the Royal Arms at the head.—(Hear 1)—Ile had, on the Hustings, and afterwards by public letter, disapproved and disavowed the offensive publication alluded to by the Hon. and laearn'ed Geri"- tleman. He (31r. M.) regretted that a life had been' 'lost ion the occasion, and he particularly regretted that the offender had never been discovered. The man who was tried on the charge of being the murderer, offered such satisfactory evidence in his defence, that even the Counsel for the prosecution ad mitted that they had not established their case. With regard to the general charge which was made tegainst Orangemen, he would observe that he was no Orangemen, hut he believed that as a body they were united for the purpose of supporting the laws and religion of. their country, and he had not seen any thing in their conduct to induce a belief that they did not fully act up to their professions. But it had now become the prac tice to stigmatise them, and to speak of diem and the Ribbon men.together. Nothing could be more opposite than the views and practices of the two parties. The Orangemen, however, were attacked by many of those who did not dare openly to attack the Protestant religion, and who zhus• indirectly attack eel the religion through the Orange Members of it. The object of the Ribbonmen, their avowed object, was to violate the laws, to destroy all property, and to massacre the Protestants.— (Hear, hear!) SALARIES OF THE GOVERNMENT CLERKS. Mr. STUART WORTLEY gave notice, that on Thursday next he should have to present a Petition from the Clerks of one of - the Government offices, respecting the deduction of five per cent. out of their salaries for a superannuation fund. . Mr. HUME presented a Petition from the Synod of Angus and Mearns, praying that religious instruction may be extend ed to the negro slaves.-'--Ordered to he printed. • STATE OF IRELAND. Lord A LTHORP said, that in rising to submit to the House the motion of which he had given notice, he need not make any preface as to the difficulty of the task he had undertaken. He felt himself so oppressed by his sense of that difficulty, that he must bespeak the indulgence of the House, not only under the trespass he should commit upon their time, but under the in competent advocacy which he should be able to give to the sub ject. He felt himself, however, emboldened to proceed, from the conviction that, even were be to fail in persuading the House to adopt his motion, the discussion which it would create would be productive of much benefit. The difficulties in the situa tion of Ireland were theresult of a long course of events. Ever since we had obtained a footing hi that country we had treated it he was sorry to say, like a conquered country. And that great evil had been aggravated by the difference of religion between the conquerors and the conquered. The consequence of such a state of things was, distrust, violent party spirit, antta general hatred of the laws which were tainted by the vice of partiality in their administration. Thus were produced the difficulties which presented themselves in an almost insurmountable form, in the , situation of Ireland.: Nor were those the lei formidable, inasmuch as they were evils which required to be approached with Care; for it was obviously impossible to sap pose that the growth of centuries could be removed by any sud den, violent, or undigested. process.—( H ear, hear !)—lle had described the state of things in Ireland at the time of the Union, previously to which time, and under which circumstances, he was willing to admit that there would have been great danger in admitting the people to the whole of their privileges. But the difference which that measure had created was to be marked. The Catholics of Ireland, from being the majority, became the minority, when joined with the rest of the subjects of the Crown of England. Whatever danger there might have been before from a free admission of the Catholics to equal rights and ' power, it could no longer exist after this change; and it would have been true wisdom to have acted upon . that conviction. The evils attendant upon the Union were an increase of abseil ' tees, accompanied by a subtraction from the capital of the country. To restore the balance a wise Government would have made it a capital point of policy to put down the viTu lance of parties, and certainly to have abstained from giving encouragement to either party by conferring honour and emo lument upon the principals of either. Besides this, an equa lity of political rights ought to have been granted. Under such a course of government, if capital had been temporarily with drawn, it would have been soon replaced, and greater advan tages flow from it. The difficulty of dealing with Ireland was increased, because the greater part -of her evils were of a na ture which could not be provided for by legislative enact ments.—(Henr, hear !)—Taking this into consideration, he had come to the conclusion,, that a general.inquiry, into the subject was the mode b est calculated for.attaining eventual good. If the general nature of the inquiry were objected to, no mode would remain but to pursue the ;tame end by the appointment of separate Committees. This he did hat think advisable, in asmuch as the single Report of a Committee a that Ilouse,ap pointed for such a purpose, would car r y i n fi n it e ly more we i g ht it w ith than if divined into azveral reports upon distinct to.. pica as would then be the.ease. ~ lie was persuaded that a Report of that House, spewing the ttue interests of the people otalreland, and, if necessary, shaming the two parties into a more conciliatory course, would carry great weight with it.— The same objection which he grad stated . to separate Commit tees would apply to the fashionable mode of dealing with these' questions, viz. by a Commission. It was true that a Commis sion could move its investigation to the spot, but they could not properly report any remedy not within the scope of legislative interference; and what weight would any recommendation of theirs have, compared with the suggestions of a Committee of that House? He did think that a body of Gentlemen of that House, applying 'themselves earnestly to discover remedies for the evils of a portion of their fellow subjects, would carry with them a degree of respectability that would ensure attention to their words. As . to the Objections that might be urged against his .propositiOn, he did not apprehend that one would be the improvement in the state of Ireland, rendering it unnecessary. He did not expect to be met in that manner, because a Bight llon.Gentleman opposite had given notice for Thursday next, he believed of a motion for enquiry into the state of certain counties, with reference to the application of the Insurrection Act. Now, it was to be observed, that this Act would apply all over Ireland, therefore a separate inquiry would only par tially meet the question. It might also be objected that ar: inquiry such as he proposed, would occupy a long time.— This was most true, and for this reason it was that he felt indifferent as - to whether his motion were brought forward at the beginning, middle, or end of the Session. But if Ireland were in a state to require the application of the insurrection Act, no man could say that it was not in the greatest dameer. Lideed a view of such a state as Ireland was in, was enoughto make any one bid f a r ewe ll to th e p ros p e rity of England and the independence of the country. It was impossible to look at it without shuddering; and he would not believe that Gentlemen in that House would not come forward in such a case of emergency and interest, on account of the labour it would entail upon them. For what did they sit there—fir what did they offer their services to theirconatituents if they could not find time for the important business of the State ? The powers of the Committee - Should be large and extensive, beyond the mere limits of legislative enactments. There was no question which the House ought to be more cau tious in. approaching than that oi: Landlord and Tenant, and there was none which more 'loudly demanded inquiry ; than time state of the law on that estiblect in Ireland. In that country rent was paid by the latter in the form of a running; account of labour performed foie the landlord., There were many evils attached to this mode. It was inipossible under it to amesa any capital, without which so many things essential to the comforts of the females of the family could not be obtained.. If then any means could he found of giving the labourer his pay as in this country, a great benefit would be conferred. The question of Middle men, and the evils resulting from that branch of the system in Ireland, were too notorious to need any illustration on his part. Another important question was, the employment for capital. The House would not agree the other night with the motion of an Hon. Friend of his for a vote of public money to Ireland. Yet no one. who had heard the speech of his Hon. Friend could doubt that one of the great evils of Ireland was the want of capital, and• consequently want of the means of employment. It was his 'opinion that the danger of ad vancing capital to Ireland might be made to appear in a very diminished light. The Irish peasant knew his interest too well, he thought., by this time, to do any thing which should have the effect of frightening away so great a benefit. If his views were correct, how great would be the advantage of cir culating these impressions with all the authority of a Report of that House ? Ile had stated the other night that he thought a large reduction of taxes ought to be made in Ireland, with a view to the increase of capital. He had been blamed for this, as a proposal for removing the burdens of Ireland and placing them on England, and also as tending to raise Ireland to the rank of a manufacturing competitor to England. , He wished to God he could achieve so great a blessing.—(Hear, hear !) —He was afraid, however, that they were far from so de sirable a point. All his object in the recommendation was, that GoVernment should adopt a plah which should pro mote an incrirasad rate of profits in the absence of capital.— Another effect of such a course would be the tranquilization of Ireland, in the comfort of which every exertion would be amply repaid. What motives indeed could they want to any such course when they saw the eapenee Of maintaining a large standing army, and extensive police were before them, be sides that the system itself was One which ought not to be tole rated within the limits of a free Constitution ? There was a contagion about arbitrary power, which no exertions should be spared .to get rid of. The Grand. Jury Presentments was another question deserving the attention of the Committee, That iminense engine of taxation ought to be got rid of in some way or other. The next questipn for consideration was die Church Establishment in Ireland. He 'did not wish to affect the Established Church, but then he did not consider the inte rests of that .Church, and the wealth of the Clergy as syno mous. Connected also with this was the Tithe Question. — In England nothing was easier than to force the Clergyman to take his tidies in I:ind, if.there were any dispute as to the money agreement. in, Ireland nothing; w,as more difficult; and there were bCsides other 'difficulties and oppressions attached to the taking of tithes, that 'it was most necessary to get rid of. They already knew what bloodshed and disturbance these things had created in Ireland. Another point to which the attention of Parliament was forcibly called was the Orange and Catholic; Lodges, llc.distinguished neither of these—they were both bad, add he wished to see them both suppressed. It was not easy to p u t them down by l aw , to do which an attempt had been made last year, which had proved distasteful to a free country. Ilk exhortation and a wise policy might prove successful. The next great point, was, the disabilities under which so large a portion of the country laboured. By these they felt themselves to be a degraded. caste, under which the most galling feelings came in to aggravate any momentary die . - tress into the direst confusion and misery. He confessed upon this head he derived but little. hope from the political conduct of the Right lion. Secretary for Foreign Affairs. That Right Hon. Gentleman had now reached the highest point of fortune it was possible for him to attain. No situation which this country, Europe, or the world could offer him, could he promotion to him.—(Hear, hear !)—Let him then use the power which this exalted situation gave him, for the oolypurpose that power could be acceptable or desirable, viz. the purpose of doing good. It was not the title of Secretary of State, still less the paltry salary attached to the office, but the power of handing down his name to posterity as a benefactor to the public, tha'm, could give the Right Hon. Gentleman's present situation a va lue in his eyes.—(Hear, he r, !)--The past career of the Right Hon. Gentleman upon this subject, proved that he knew what he ought to do. He bad great power in his hands, and he (Lord Althore) called on him to come forward in a manly man ner, and carry his own wishes into effect. In doing so lie would secure the support of every liberal nian in the House, and of every man of talent and attainments ,in the country.—(Hear, hear, hear !) The Noble Lord concluded by moving the ap pointment of a Select Committee to examine into the present state of Ireland, anti report the same to the House. Sir H. PARNELL seconded the 'motion. He thanked his Noble Friend for the very able manner in which he had treated this important question, as well as for his general exertions in behalf of Ireland. The evils of Ireland arose, there could be no no doubt, froth the poverty of the people. The failure of a crop in that country was the sure forerunner of famine, the. prolific parent of every vice and misery. It was not sufficient that the people of Ireland should have employment—it should be such employment as would afford. them the means of better living. He had no doubt that a Committee, such as his Noble Friend desired, would be productive of the greatest benefits. Ile differed so far from his Hon. Friend on the subject of legi slative measures, as to think that they :night be made available to the accumulation of capital in Ireland. In its present con dition it really was surprising . that there was so much capi tal in Ireland. There could be no doubt that there had been ,a great accumulation 'of capital since 18112 or 1803. Ireland had the benefit of a free trade in corn . with England in 1806, which. had assisted towards the increase of capital. Already much had been done towards the improvement of Ireland, which in creased the security of capital embarked there. Amongst other things the rep ea l of the Usury Laws would be a great boon to Ireland. But these questions would be best treated by a Committee appointed with the powers proposed by his Noble Friend. Mr. GOULBURN would endeavour to confine himself to the question before the H o u se , and avoid following the Noble Lord and Hon. Baronet into the topics which they had intro duced. Those who did him the honour to recollect the part which he had taken when motions of a similar nature were brought before the House, would have little doubt as to the course which he must pursue on the present •occasion, would be satisfied that lie could not g i ve his assent to the motion. At the same time he b egge d that it might be understood, that he was opposed to no inquiry into the state of Ireland which could be advantageously conducted, and brought to an useful result. He considered the motion of the Noble Lord embraced too many objects. Time former state of parties, the old a nd present system of tithes, the situation of landlord and tenant, and as if these were not enough, the concession% claimed by the lloman Catholics, to which all the evils which afflicted Ireland were attributed. This last question, he was surprised to find the Noble Lord would refer to a Select Com mittee. If that were the fittest course to pursue, why had it been discussed in the House year after year ? Not approving of this proposition, it would be his duty to offer an amend ment to the motion, the object of which would be to post pone the consideration of some of the matters which the Noble Lord wished it to embrace, till the motion of which he had given notice should come before the House. The Noble Lord lied anticipated some of the objections which might be made AO his ; proposition, rma a -a had contended that the improved state of Ireland could not be urged in answer to it, when it was in contemplation to call the attention of the House to the dis turbed state of Cork, Limerick, Tipperary, Clare, and other counties. He, however, could not consent on account of local disturbances, to adopt a course which would affect the whole of Ireland. fri proceeded to defend the conduct of the Go vernment of ft:eland, which he contended was free from any partialities growing • out of religious persuasions. It would be found from the lists on the table that of the individuals em ployed by the Government. it would be found that to six Protestants, there were nine Catholics. He begged the House to pause before . they adopted the ideas of the Noble Lord with respect to the • wealth of - the -Church of Ireland. • H Goulburn) would admit that the Church of Irelarcd was fully endowed, more so perhaps than that of England ; but this ad mission made, it ought to be remembered that double duties attached to the Irish Church, and to secure the discharge of these the revenues ought to be ample. After some further re marks the Right Hon. Gentleman said he should move an amendment which would substitute for the inquiry which the Noble Lord had proposed, one of which he thought would se cure every benefit that could be hoped from carrying the mo tion. He moved to omit all the words of the original motion, after the word examine," for purpose of adding . those words, " into the nature•and extent of the disturbances in cef tain districts not subjected to the operations of the Insurrection Act." Lord MILTON contended that it would be better to enquire generally into the state of Ireland than to eater upon that par tial inquiry which the Right Hon. Gentleman h a d recommend ed to the House. This country ought to know the state of Ire land well to govern it properly, and at prt-sent he maintained that a great degree of grievances prevailed with respect to its. affairs. Ile believed there was no country in Europe in a similar state with Ireland. It was his hope that effectual mea sures would be adopted to afford adequate and permanent relief to its inhabitants. Capital could be found in England for Colombia and for other States, and, indeed, for States not in existence, but none could be: found for Ireland. Could English capital he taught to flow in. that direction, the greatest heneliti would follow. He, therefore, wished the motion for a general inquiry into the state of that country, as till that shotild b e known, the necessary rem e dy cou ld n ot b e suppli A. There were a number of persons in Ireland, to- whom he thought ad vice might be conveyed with very considerable e&ct.. To the Grand-Master of the Orange Lodge, and to the Post-Master General, advice might be conveyed ire a mode which, could not fail to lead to beneficial consequences. ,But a proper course had, as yet, never been taken. It had been the policy of the English I Ministers to govern 4-sthis of the people or Ireland bypeana of the remaining fifth. The arts of corruption were not unknown there, and he who could not get forward in.Engltuid commonly received preferment in Ireland. This was the way in which Ireland had been governed. Ile did not say that it was so now, but the traces of past misgovernment still remained. They could only be effaced by a long course of good government, and this could never be accomplished by the interference of Orangemen or Ribboniten. He noticed the oppressive laws to . which. Ireland had been subjected. Some of which, and among them one which made it death to marry a Roman Catholic and a Protestant remained at pre;ent unrepealed, but by implica tion and usage. To effect a general improvement in the state of Ireland, it was desirable by enlightening the people to dimi nish the influence of their priests. Ile earnestly contended that the circumstances of every part of Ireland ought to be fully known in England, and hence inferred the necessity of that in quiry for which the present motion called. Would any body believe that such an inquiry had taken place, that a Bill like that which the House, much to its honour, had rejected yester day, would have been brought before it ? Was there a man who believed that the Dean and Chapter of any Cathedral in England would have dared . to come forward with such a Bill. That Bill he considered to have' been generated by the state of Ireland, by the state of the law, and the state of the administration of the law in that country. He considered good likely to result from the limited inquiry proposed by the Right Honourable Gentlethan ; but as still great er good might be expected from the more general inquiry contemplated by the motion,- for that he should feel it to be his duty to vote. Mr. NORTH *aid that many aid various as were the evils which afflicted Ireland, the number and variety of the causes assigned for them were equallY great, each class of persons as signiag that which his own particular interest suggested. The mass of the unemployed population had been represented as one of those causes, and undoubtedly it was a true one. When the arts of civilization had not been tried to make peace and ins dustry go hand in hand and assist each other, it was natural that a people so energetic, with whom employment was a want, a natural appetite equally powerful with the desire of food, should become restless and turbulent. But there was another cause which should not be overlooked ; which was the powerful in fluence of habit. The habit of resistance to the Government was one which was transmitted from generation to generation; it was an example which they inherited from their fathers._ The first cause of this disordered state of Ireland was its imperfect conquest. From the time of Henry 11. to the reign of .Eliza beth, there was e continued struggle. 'The country was repeat edly overrun, but never subdued; and the conquest which was begun by StrOngbow, was left unfinished by Essex. Another powerful-cause of evil was the corrupting and debasing influ ence of the Penal Code. Who that looked through the history of the country would venture to say that he had a specific for a disorder so inveterate as this? For the insufficiency of employ , ment for the labouring portion of the population several reme dies had been proposekand among them was one which had much in it to recommend it to his mind—which was that of emigration on a large scale. It was one which reconciled itself the most perfectly With the feelings and character of the people. If he knew anything of his countrymen there was among them a love of novelty and a spirit of change, which was highly fa vourable to colonization. They spoke with enthusiasm of dis tant countries, which they fondly imagined to be more peace ful than their own; and were ever ready to seek— " Some safer world in depths of woods embraced, Some happier island in the watery waste." There would be found in every country certain natural deposi tories of power and influence among the people, who ought to be gained over to the support of the Government. One of the most powerful of those in Ireland were the Catholic Priest.. hood, who ought by all means to be enlisted in the cause of improving the condition of the people, by raising them and placing them in a situation of competence and respectabi lity. Th ere had a lso grown up within a few years past a consi derable body among the laity, whose talents, station, and charac ter hail acquired for them a powerful influence over their fellow Catholics ; but the influence of these had been much checked by the system of doubt and distrust which had grown up out of that party spirit, that like a moral Malaria spread its baleful influence over the whole country. No .man more ardently desired than he did the extinction of all party spirit in Ireland; but he must say that the course recommended by Gentlemen on the other side of the House for arriving at that object appeared to him the most mischievously calculated for inflaming and, perpetuating it. The most likely method, as it appeared to hirn, of neutralising the spirit of party was a steady and determining perseverance in that system of imparti• lity and disregard of personal consider ations and opinions which characterised the present Government of Ireland, and led him to regard it as the best calculated for promoting the interests of the country that it had as yet enjoyed. Much had been said of the share which the Protestant Clergy had in promoting discontent in Ireland ; but as far as he was enabled to judge between them and the Country Gentlemen who seemed disposed to array themselves against them, he was in clined to decide in favour of the Clergy. He thought the Noble Lord would be greatly deceived, if he anticipated any practical result from the success of his motion. The extent' variety, and nature of the subjects which would present them selves for inquiry, would serve only to distract and perplex the Committee. The description of persons they would have to ex amine as witnesses, the nature of the evidence that Would be placed before them embracing every opposite extreme of (minion, would furnish them with nothing but what they had already heard and read in speeches and pamhlets, until they hitei' been surfeited with its repetition. A s a n Irishman, he felt grateful to the present Government for what it had done, and was thank ful that it had not attempted more ; for the surest way, in his opinion, to defeat its. endeavours. to improve the condition of Ireland would be, by directing its efforts to too many objects at once. Much good had already been done; and he believed that the time would soon come when it would please Providence to enlarge and open the hearts of the English people to the recep tion of a just and liberal policy towards Ireland. If any modi fication or change were to be made in the institutions of that country, he trusted that it would come from the Country Gentlemen of Ireland themselves, and he strongly depre cated any attempt at such change from any other quarter. Let the Gentlemen of Ireland set themselves in earnest to this work, and let them begin the reform of the abuses of their country's institutions by reforming themselves.—( Loud cheer ing. )—Let them reform their country on the ruins of faction. If they did that—if they rooted out their own prejudices, the. English people would forego theirs; and he saw every prospect that Ireland would at length attain that pitch of fortune and prosperity which it was, the wish of every Gentleman of that country that it should attain. Sir J. NEWPORT said that, for one, he would deprecate any inquiry within the narrow limits prescribed by the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. North.) If ever there was a period when a proper inquiry could be made with safety into the affairs of Ireland it was the present. If it were deferred the House would be certain to lose an opportunity of doing much good, without doink any evil. Mr. STANLEY said that the Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. North) had drawn a melancholy picture of the state of Ireland, whose miseries be lead. declared were not casual, but appeared to be inseparable _from the nation. Deeply as lie re gretted its truth, he did not regret the oratory of the Hon. Gen tleman, which, he conceived, proved more than any thing else could the deep necessity for an inquiry into th cause of its evils. The only way in which he had endeavoured to meet the question was, by contending that they were of too extensive a nature to be remedied ; and he therefore proposed to leave Ire land to her solitary and unregarded misery. But he (311', Stanley) would ask, if there were no good to be anticipated from the inquiry, what advantage could possibly arise from the amendment ? Sir JOHN SF,BRIGHT supported the motion. The re-. medics proposed by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman could not succeed. Sir F. BURDETT considered the speech of the Hon. And Learned Gentleman a most able and eloquent picture of the n, state of Ireland, but the Hon. Gentleman would allow him to say it was not less inconsistent than eloquent. It was a speech no one could answer, because it was a complete' answer to it— self. The statements contradicted each other. The Hon. Gentle man lied drawn a high-coloured picture of the disastrous state of the country. The Legislature wcs called upon to prOb e the wounds of Ireland to the bottom ; but althongh that was to • • he the remedy, they were to have no inquiry. The Honourable Meenber who was for taking effectual measures supported the Amendment, which was a mere inquiry how the Insurrection Act had not produced the desired effect. DeScribing as he did ' the calamities of Ireland, the Hon: and Learned Gentleman had terminated his harangue by saying he would not support the . motion for inqiiiry. The situation of the people of Ireland • was sail to be such that they had nothing to fear or hope, yet they were to have no, redress, because the evil was above con- troul. A panegyric was then bestowed on the 'people whose privations bad stimulated them to 'exertions'. People who thus conducted themselves were surely entitled to inquiry with a . view of redressing their grievances. That consideration brought to his mind the Cetholic question, one of the great leading fea tures of discontent in Ireland. The people making a virtue of necessity, had remained patient without redresS in that re specs, but it mien be settled at last. The Hon. and Learned • Gentleman, with a facility of language peculiar to himself, had praised the Orangemen as possessing all that was good in Ireland. Ile might ask-why had the Hon. and Learned Member. been so ready to allovn that party so much merit, and withhold praise from othees? With respect to colonization, he• was sure Ministers would not sanction it, upon "a proper plan sod •., scale. Means should be taken to secure the comfort of mei grants upon a system different from that which had led tomi sery at the Cape of Good HOpe. It was proper Parliament at lawn should know what could be ddi)e for Ireland. It wax . important to the people of England to assist Ireland, and the English Gentlemen would'do well to consider, that in the pre sent state of distress, they were supporting the poor of Ireland. The evils of Ireland arose out of the extreme poverty of the peasantry. From - all lie had formerly heard, he thought that . time would' be hailed by all descriptions of persons in that House, when a full and fair inquiry into the state of Ireland should take place. If the proper time had not now arrived, be knew not when it could be expected. For these reasons he • should support the motion. Mr. PEEI. said, this was the second time lie had heard the Hon. Baronet express his-regret at not hearing the opinions of the Members of his Majesty's Government upon the subject under discussion ; but had not the lion. Baronet, whom he al ways heard with great pleasure, been so frequently absent front the House, he might have heard the subject discussed over and over again, and the opinions of his Majesty's Ministers givers . upon it usque -ad nauseam.—(A laugh.)—llad not his Hon. and Learned Friend Oita North) risen before him, he was about to express his regret that the forms of the House did not allow him an opportunity of correcting several misrepresenta tions of what he (Mr. North) had said, and which had fallen ha was sure through misconception from . the Hon. Baronet. This short explanation, however, which had just taken place rendered the remark unneceseary. Now with. reference to the general question, which in his (Mr. Peel's) ..opinion laid •in a. tnuch narrow compass than the Hon. Baronet (Sir Francis.Btudett) seemed willing to allow, he could not for his part • see so marked a difference between the proposition submitted to them . • by the Noble Lord and that which his Right Hon. Friend had moved as an amendment. They both meant to remedy the evils of Ireland: The one embraced a large field, the other confined itself to a specific remedy and surety. The remedy which his. Rt. Hon. Friend proposed to apply could not be said to be of a very partial nature when it propoSed to extend it to the whole of one. proiince (Munster) and to some of the counties of another. Go vernment had been accused of indifference to the distresses of Ireland ; but surely the conduct which they had adopted was a refutation of the charge. Last Session, when it was proposed to institute an inquiry into education in that country, His Ma jesty's Government would willingly have acceded to, had .it not been for the late period of the session. This Session, how ever, they cheerfully acceded to the .motion of the Right Horn Baronet (Sir J. Newport), and a Commission had in conse quence been appointed. The language of Government rove - . riably was, " Point out some specific grievance, and we will assist in finding out a remedy. Above all-things he (Mr. Peel) was surprised at the abuse which had been lavished on the motion of his Right Hon. Friend, which was the very same that had been submitted to their consideration last year by the Bon. Baronet who that evening seconded the motion of the Noble herd. lie was sure if he had an opportunity he would rise and vindicate his own motion from the aspersions that hact been cast upon it. The Noble Lord (Milton) had said that Go vernment wished to get rid of the motion by a side-wind. That was not, however, the case ; for the amendment of his Hors Friend was prepared inconsequence of a distinct pledge given • by him last Session, when he stated, that if at any future time he shOuld find it necessary to move for a renewal of the Insurrection Act, he should in that case bring the situa tion of the disturbed districts fully before the House. He - concurred in one or two objects brought forward by the Noble Lord, but in many lie totally differed. He was as strenuous an advocate for the cause of the Church as any man ; he thought there ought to be a difference of rank in it. It might suit a republican form of Government not to' have an established Church, but with 'respect to this country it could never be ad. vantageous. When this subject was under consideration last year, lie had the same opinions which he now had. He thought • that secret societies in Ireland were not beneficial; but he was more anxious to make an impression apon their minds by exhi biting the wishes of the Government, than by actual enactment. It had been said that parties who were engaged in them, if be longing to Government, might be dismissed. If this measly were resorted to, it would only increase party spirit in that country. He trusted that he had shewn that Government wetb sincere in their wish to . alleviate the distresses of Ireland, and that much good would accrue from the inquiry proposed by his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Goulburn). Mr. Secretary CANNING and Lord ALTHORPE rose; the latter gave way. • Mr. Secretary CANNING—In intruding between the Noble Lord and the House, and the motives which induce me to do so, will be a sufficient guarantee to the House, even if I thought it necessary to go into the arguments, not to go over the ground which has been so frequently argued. In the first place, Ido not intend to take any view of the great question which can in duce me to go into such a case as the Noble Lord conceives...-. There is nothing that I am aware of which can put the HOLISO and the country at rest upon that great question, excepting . advanced state of opinion, which was calculated to produce COD , version. But when the Noble Lord calls upon me to shew my sincerity, I, in the first place, as a proof of my sincerityin the opinions which I have embraced, refer to my public line of con duct. I deny that I have here or elsewhere shrunk from de claring my opinions. I may have been right or wrong—l may have been politic or impolitic in the line which I have followed, but in all the cases in which I have advocated the cause of the, Roman Catholics, I have studiously abstained from leading them to believe that I was a partisan to their notions. To them, therefore, or to those who have placed tjlemselves in such a situation, and whom I blame not for doing what they have, to those I neither owe nor will I render any .est- , planation of my conduct. I have reserved to myself at au times in or out of office, and I still reserve to myself, an unfettered disposition on that subject for its progress or success. I have come to no agreement with the Noble Lord or any man who shall take up the subject, in what mannef I shall proceed (I speak not in an offensive sense); but 1,. have supported every one who has brought the queetiert forward, and am ready to do so again when the occasion shall present itself ; and ,on every occasion I have been actuated with a view to the good of the country. Ever since t! . e Catho lic Question existed, the members of the Administee,ion h a ve divided upon it. It has so happened, it has come into the world as it were having differences of opinion respecting it. It is said that 1 am bound to take some steps towards accom plishing this 'object. But I deny that I am bound to do so in the way pointed out. I.thought it was more likely to be car ried under a divided Government, than under a Government united - upon that point, but divided upon different sub jtcts. I have held that opinion , but have recommend e d it. g always held it and acted upon it, I have no right to called on to explain. Th ere i s not a t i me in which. . 11 1 did not take such a line of argument to be proper, and is Noblebe called l.ord upon aHeg e tos thatexi)ln 6 Y which I did not hold suc h an op i n i on • and having donee I might be call e d upon to v i n di cate th e w i s d om of it, but I cannot The halleged proclaim incontsoismtey col leagues ies u a g n lit to leagues that the period is now come in which we ought to make up a common opinion on the Catholic question. This I deny,' holding the course which I have adopted. I certainly am not here by any wi s h or c h o i ce o f m y ow n • the result w ould have been much bett er for myself, perhaps, had I been far away; but perhaps the Catholic Question would have been in no better condition than it is at present. I believe with the Noble Lord, I wish as much as he can for its sup port, that will ultimately make its way, notwithstanding all the opposition it meets with ; but I am bound to say that there is a strong feeling against it in this country ; and I am iler suaded that it never can be carried consistent with the peeo k 3 , 71, 110 I, Li *hei ?Tie the tem inrg of ij 'tat (