The Sun. — London, England, 1820-03-27 00:00:00

- 13 a `b-rWatClier. Never is snci► 'book "al►ctc ag Carlilesold. 1 heard of the meeting of the 9th cf August, it was a current report. It was also currently reported !hat the meeting was put off, and 'that there would be a meeting on the 16th I would, from this report, have attended the meeting, whether 1 saw Johnson or not. Johnson did not invite me there in order to take any part in the proceedings. Ile did not ask me to tittend for an illegal purpose. 1.3 y the CooaT- 7 -If you expected any riot .or tumult:lb - err; woutl 'you haie attended not; By Tohnson-1 # don't recollect how I became acquainted 'With you. I know Mr. Gee. Ile took - me, fb'r the first time, to your shop. CoußT—Did you ever hear from John soh- th'at drilling was going on ?—•I never ►1 id . Did you ever hear it mentioned, in his hear ing, th,tt it was going on ?—I do not recOliect that I did. •neitrucr 'nerlsr Lis neighltotir exprelS y tias.considerable property in Lloyd•street. There was nothing iu,the appearance of the proceedings different from those be had seen of benefit dubs. Some few fiad sticks. Thera were a good many young women amougst them. Saw no shops shut up until evening. Was at the meeting about half past twelve. He saw no one armed with long staves. Where he stood was the opposite angle to Mr. Buxton's house, Saw the cavalry arrive, and form in front of the house. Saw them ap- proach the hustings. No resistance was made. There sere neither stones nor brickbats thrown at them; if there were he should have seen theta. Cross-examined by Serjeant Caogs-1 stood near the Quakers' Meeting House, but farther down. 1 know Johnson ; never knew him until about three days before the 16th August. Did not know anyof the others. 1 had :ern Mr. Hunt before at a meeting at,Manchester. 1 took no part in the proceedings. The meeting I was at %yds the oneheln in Jantsary. heaid no expression of alarm before the 16th of August. I had heard of additional constables having been sworn in, and of a military force brought into the neighbourhood. I had also heard that there was to be a meeting of the Justices of two comities, and I consitlxred them precautionary measures. I ant sure I heard no. expressions of alarm amongst my neighbours, on account of the people assembling, I knew a meeting was to have been holden on the 9th of August. 1 did .not know, however, that it was for the purpose of electing Mr mbers of Parlia ment, like th.oie of Birmingham. I have seen this notice before. (A placard was put into Iti: lands, signed 11. Hunt, for calling ihe meeting.) itt-exainined by Mr. Hunt-1 can't swear that I have been a coma copy of this before the 1 meeting,. Did you ever hear the nature of it ; whether' it was confioed to tnarching or to arms ?—I heard it wag et.Crely confioed to marchiug ; I had no re.son to ,oppose it rvrr went beyond that. By the CounT, for John.on—l never heard Johu , on in my life say :Joy thing s e ol , ions. Sidney Walker, by Mr. hunt—l am a Lieute nant in the Bengal Native Infaotty. I have been frmil India one or two yea's. I was t i t Man chester on the 16th of Augoro last. My family re t,ide tl.ete. It consists of my mother, a sister, and her family. I observed the procession com ing in ; they were perfectly peaceable. I went afterwards to the meeting. Some of the proces sion I saw pass through Deausg.ate. I saw no thing in the course of the morning calculated to excite fears in the respectable people of the town, l‘ly mother or sis:er expressed no alarm. I did not hear any one express fears for the sc.fety of the town. I saw the military on the field. I stood about 40 yards from Mr. Buxton's !muse ; on the Deansgate side. Mr. Buxton's is at the side of St. Peter's Church. I did trot see any violence committed either in the field or the streets, in the course of the day, by the people. There were, however, two or tblee inclined to tight among thetwelves, but they were' prevented by thoSe about them. '.i'bey said they would not have a riot created. Up to the arrival of the cavalry, - I did no: see any thing like intimidation on the part the people. Cross-examined by Serjeant Flueeocx—Was still in the service of the Company, but his leave is out, and lie does not receive pay. I have a mind to retire, and am now a student of the Inner Tem ple. 1 was called to the meeting by notices on the walls; I did not see the Observer ; I had come in from the country ; I lived about 2 miles from town ; my mother lives in town, about four or hive loptired yards from St. Petet's-field ; I am not a nlimber of the Union, or of any political society ; 1 was told who the speakers Nould be ; I knew that Mr. Hunt was to preside there ; did not know that Dr. Crompton, Mr. Carlile, or Mr. Pearson were to be there ; I know Mr. Carlik's shop; I knew at the time he was under prosecution tor blasphemous libels. Mr. Hunt again objected to any inquiry being made about Mr. Carlile, who was not a defendant [ln consequence of publishing Mr. SCARLETT'S Reply, and the Charge of the Learned Judge, we are compelled to omit the remainder of the evidence adduced this day; but we shall insert it to-morrow, in order to make the Report of this im portant Trial complete.] At a quaver before seven the Court adjourned tu-niorrow (Saturn.,iy.) NINTH DAY. YORK, SATURDAY, NlAr.ett '2 5 . The Conrt met at the usual hour.—The Sub- Sheriff, having been accused by Mr. Hunt of using improper influence wits► the Jury, inquired if any of them had their summonses with them. One Was produced and read. The Jurymen bad re ceived the satne summons, and the Judge stated this to be that which was perfectly regular. Edmund Darby, examined by Mr. Hunt—l live in Manchester. and am a I►uildrr. I know Willie, the butcher ; I have known hint from two to three years ; from the knowledge I have of I►int, I would not believe him on his oath. Cross-examined by Mr-. SCABLETT—I have lied 20 wears in Manchester ; I never saw him examined in a Court of Justice ; 1 never was in one in my life ; I was at the meeting of the 16th of August last ; I was not at that in January.— It was timely out of curiosity I went there. I live in Thomas-street. It was on Thursday morn ing last 1 came to Yoe 4 a. By the CouaT—What is your reason for saying you wouln nut believe hill) on his oath ? My reason is, he has so often deceived me within these last four months, that I could not give credit to any thing he says. William I'l►illips also spoke very indifferently of Willie's character. John G. Roberts and Michael fleavyside de posed as to the generally peaceable character of the ttteetin►g. The Rev. Mr. Hindmarsh, a Dissenting Mini ster, examined by Mr. Hant—Witeessed the meeting, and saw nothing disorderly in it, no thing of resistance manifested to the military,— all Seemed jOy awl satisfaction. Cross•examined by Mr. SCARL.ETT — 7 Whilst they were coming up I was near the Quakers' Meeting•bouse. There was then a great crowd interposed 'between me and them. - 1 might be standing about 60 yards from teem. 'One'of my objects in going, was to see Mr. Hunt, of whom [bad heard so much. I had no connexion with any parry; I have kept clear of them for 30 years. I cannot say any thing of the banner bearing the inscription " Equal 'RepreSentntion or Death." I never said that the banners were not indicative of the character 6f - the meeting. I think " Equal Representation" is equal to " Liberty or Death." ' One is an ancient motto, but this is a contest in this country. Now will you say a mob which bad this was disposed to peace ?—I do not think it indicated any breach of the peace on that day. Liberty ►►r Death indicated no breach of the peace, nor do I think any of the other banners were in tended to be acted upon that day. What other day, then do not know ; I can only give evidence of the character of the meet ing of that day ; of the result I can say nothing. Would you think it safe to inculcate to such a multitude doctrines such as—Equal Representa tion, Liberty, or Death ? I don't think the peace of the meeting, or of the town, vvoull have been endangered by it on that occasion, there. Mr. Justice 13x1 LEY said, as he was one of those who called the meeting, the prosecutors were at liberty to slim that he was under prosecution for blasphemy at the time. Mr. Hunt thought it very hard to he made ac countable for every act of Mr. Carlile's life. 'Fite witness went on-1 know Mr. Wooler ; his shop is in Fleet-street. I have been in Car lile's shop ; that is also in Fleet-street. 1 believe it is called " The Temple of Reason ;" Office of 'The Republican and Deist" is over the door.— Never knew Mr. Hunt before the 161 h, but I saw hint at a meeting at the Crown and Anchor Tavern ; it was upon occasion of the death of Sir S. Ro milly ; Sir F. Burdett was in the Chair ; Mr. Mint was there ; many other public characters were there.—Olere there was another objection raised, but alter some conversation the witness went on.]-1 don't know that \Vooler or Cathie were there ; I have not been much in the habit of attending the trials at ; I was not at Car!ile's trial ; \Vooler is a publisher, I believe ; 1 never saw Mr. Hunt at any other place but the Crown and Anchor ; 1 never was at a public meeting before that of the 16th of August. The divisions marched in order, keeping a step, seven abreast. They did not march so regular as a regiment of sepoys. I can not say what number of persons were assembled ; they were' calculated at-100,00 ; the place was quite full ; I beard Mr. Hunt's addle's ; I did not see the carriage in which Mr. Hunt was. He-ex in - lined—Saw the persons assemble, but I cannot say in what numbers ; they were not in military order ; it they had I might have guessed their number. In August last I had not heard that Carlile was convicted of any crime ; Mr. Car lile's trial had not then come on, and I must pre sume a men to be innocent until he is found guilty. Had heard in Aegost that Wooler was tried, hut 1 do not know that he vas convicted. I never saw you in company with either of- them. Carlile 1 never saw in my life. I slept one night at my mother';, the other at my sister's, two miles out of town. The people in the field had not the appearance of regular troops. 1 saw no large staves. The people did not appear to me ready to fight for Hunt if there should be occasion, for they had no arms, By the CoußT—From seeing the divisions, you could judge whether they had been drilled ?-1 thought they might walk as well as they had nett been drilled. I should not think from their ap pearance that they had been drilled. I saw some of them in the streets. 1 could tell, by bearing the approach of a body of men, whether they were regular troops or not . . There was nothing of uniformity in their step. I did not observe that they were locked in walking. in the field the people pressed very close to the hustings.-- I think they were too close for offensive opera tions. Thelwall—ls a builder at Manchester ; was there on the 16111 of August. His house is , Oeti , 200 yards from the place of meeting. Has - family. His house is in Lloyd-street. ~i tee processions corning in ; they • manner. He left no alarm; I'll put you another—Dill you see the inscrip tion, " Let us die like men, not be sold like slavtsl"—l did not. We will assume then that it was thure ?—Do then. Do you think it would be safe to preach such doctrines as those to the meeting ?—1 considered it to be a general sentiment, on many occasions in public life, that the people are sold as slaves. I have often heard them say, after Members of Parliament were elected, that they are sold ; 1 don't justify it, but I give what I have heard. You think it sate, then, to preach ,such doc trines ?-1 do, pettedly so. You do think the people are sold as slaves ?-1 have not said so ; 1 din no politician. What is your opinion ?-1 au► not warranted in giving one. You think it safe to preach it, if it were true ? A man ought to preach what he thinks to he true. 1 say, there would be no danger in it, that day. Now, if a man si•onld he of opinion, that a re presentation at all was a tyranny, and that each individual should have a vote, would there be no I• • a- tes t danger ia patesehlog that —4 can't enter into tail inea.tous atneres t out, fri.,(!e it) 4 (peel ion. of eis detente, respecting himself lodivit!aaally, . Be consistent.. You said you think it safe to and the Sob-Sheriff of the County. A great part, preach all that is .teete ?-- , -I never said so. I only of Mr. How's speech, he observed, was taken up said that there would be no danger in preaching in complaints that he. (Mr. Scarlett) had intro it , that day. duceil metier boon himself which he had no right Mr. Gurney, the short-band writer, upon a to do. If the Lord of the Minor of Glastonbury reference to his notes, said the witness had said so. would only take the pains of learning a little po- Now that you have said it, do you mean to per- liteness front the !'arson, his friend, he would, sist in. it thought you only applied it to me perhaps, know that Codnsel never (ottani any as as a preacher. sertion that is not to be found in their brief. It Then you draw a distinction between a politi- would seem as if Mr. Hunt was the prosecutor, Ciall and a preacher ?-1 do. and Nit-. Scarlet; the defendant. Did he think that Do you think it would be safe in Et politician to he (Mr. Scarlet[) was so bed a practitioner as to inculcate upon the mob any doctrines he thinks say that which he knew could not be support true ?—Not altogether , ed in evidence, and which, in the end, would -Du voo think it would he safe to tell them they rather plejorliee than scree his cause ? Now, are sold as slaves ?—At a public meeting when in order to show Mr. Hunt that be had it is people come to ,sliscoss grievances, I think they his brief, he would reed for him that part of should state their opinions freely, even it they it. lie then read front his brief, that on arose; went to the extent you say. 'her banner there was inscribed " No Corn That they were sold as slaves ?—Yes ; I think Laws," awl a bloody dagger painted upon it.— a meeting ought to have rite same liberty of Now, from the evidence, it appeared that the deg speech as in the House of Comloons, or any pri- ger w,,:s not in fact painted upon it, and that it vale meeting of individuals. 1f they are at li- was only the handle that was red. Mr. Hunt was berry to meet at all, they should have freedom of pleased to say, that he only used' this with a dra speech. • matic effect to obtain the applause of the multi- Is Mr. ilindotarsh as tolerant hi religion as, in Role. Again, he was charged with endeavouting; politics ?-1 think they should he equal. to make a witness say Carlile was with him at the . And, r.erelore, chit every man who bast any meeting. Mr. Hoot, in speaking of the connec- °pillions in politics should preach them ?-1 think tion that this would imply, became very pathetic, lie may have his opinions about them. and even added tears to his rhetorical flourishes. N o our can controul that. But to preach ?—I Good God ! said he, is it not enough that I ant said if they were consistent with the H oeft:ats o f charged with being a traitor to my King, but '1 society. must be also charged with being a reneged° to Who are the judges of that ?—The constituted my God. - Connexion with Cathie ! not he for. authori•ies. i sooth ; and he added. that if that person was not Was it •your curiosity brought yon there now suffering it prison he would say what he wished to see Mr. liont.—Not Carlile ? No.— thought of hint 'Phis was a fine declamation, loft Did you ever see him ? No. l was it true ? Did not one of his witnesses, and his Are you amhitions of seeing hint ? Not perti- most respectable one, Mr. yas, say he "ia. , him culerly so. I did not know that he was to be in the coach with him lie would now come to there. I did nut see the placard. i :snot her and very important part of the de-, R e -exemined—lf you saw a placard signed by • fence. Mr. Hunt was certainly entitled to 700 pet sons, calling a meeting for Retorm in l'ar- make all the use he 'could of the absence of liament, would you think such a meeting either the Magistrates and constables as witnesses oil improper or ?—Certainly not. this oceasian for the. Crown. Ile might ask Mr. Justice BaveeY—As to the legality of it, wiry they wcre not called, and he (Mr. Searlett) he Can be no judge. would give him a short and satisiacrory answer. It any one delivered a speech calling upon the Whether the Magistrates who acted there, front whole Nation to do something in a place where it motives yet unexplained, used a lawful discretion; was afterwards.. circulated by many of the press to whether the coos:aisias were jestifiad in cots the farthest parts of the Kiogdow, would you ap- 1 science or in fact ; or whether the Yeomen, whets prove of that ?—lf it was to be done by violence, they surrounded the hustings on the 16th of An ! certainly sliotulil not. i gust, did eight or wrong, had no mote to do with Mr. Justice BAYLEY—Thep, when violence is the question before the Court, than whether Mr. used, you do not think it j..stitiable, whatever the Hunt was Lord or Bailiff of the Manor of - Glase means might be ?—No. tonbury, or whether lie bad.five thousand-or olio Then if you had hear4l that certain persons bad thousand acres. The reason for not calling them bribed-- was this : its the early part of the trial, be (Mr. Ss) Mr. Serjeant Ceoss,objected. as well as the other advisers of the Croseo e not Mr. Hunt---Oh, now we Come to the question. knowing what the opinion of the Learned Judge Mr. Justice BAY.LEY — Go on; ask the question. ts ould be, though they were persuaded the ine It the people at a meeting -had been told diet qttiry could not -at all affect this question, fleece'. Electors sold their votes tO a person who after- theless, had the Magistrates in attendance. Ho wards sold these for a place, would you not think made no allusion whatever, either to their cone that a fit subject for discussion ?--'That was pie- duct, or to that of the Yeomanry, iu his opening , cisely what 1 meant. when I said the people were What be thought, however, came about, the sold like-sleves. Learned Judge explicitly declared, that the coo' What is your understanding of -the . .phrase, duct of the Yeomanry or the Magistrates could " selling the people like slaves ?"—When they i not be at all material to this trial. He tv+4 6 receive motley fur their 'totes, ettt,theo are :sold persuaded stroll an itllplitV Was more an 0b... again by Members of Parliament, who dispose of lect with the defendants than any other, anti their ,liberties.without consulting their i n terests. 'die himself felt of what importance it mosii,d, This I take to be selling the .people. t,eto make it. B u t why r a ise wantonly 3 prejudice ag a i nst i n di v id ua l s , which could have With regard to equal representation , yo u have been asked if such a doctrine was sate ; did you no ,other effht •than that of distracting the hear any such preached by the speakers / I did not Jury ? If the question now was, whether th e hear the speakers. meeting was or was not a legal one, it would be John Robinson, examined by Mr. linnt.---,The a thous a nd times more important than whether meeting was peaceable ; saw no cudgels lifted Hunt -was there or not. In one case, their esti" againSt the military, nor any preparations made deuce woulti he materiel, in the present, onneces' to resist them ; had himself no fears lot his jeer- sary. This was his apology, if one were want' son or property. This was the last witness ed, for not bringing forward these Gentlemen, anti called. it was his justification for not alluding td them i° Mr. Hinter then said, this is the close of my his opening speech. 'The Jury would perceiv e case. how great an object it was with the detendant s Mf. SCARLET? rose to reply----The day was at to obtain this inquiry by soy means, and what length come when it became his dory to .atUrese . difficulty his Lordship had to repress every to e the Jury upon the winding up of this tedious, of their witnesses from gois'.g• into it. Thl s g though very important case. He could assure case had nothing to do with the c onduct them he felt too sensibly the great fatigue they the Magistrates ; it should be discussed as had gone through in its progress, ard the state of they were not in question at all. It it be 0 10 4 exhaustion, his Lordship was in, to be at all dis- assumed (bet the meeting in its formative posed to consume more of their time in doing that and progress was originally illegal, it catint' i than was absolutely necessary. It was ne.edlesa to Matter in what way it terminated. It must ILO „ remota them that it, the situation he VOW!, as be con•idered as if it had gone through all ill Counsel for one party, he could not be supposed forms and dispersed itself. If the Jury then agree d individually to have a feeling one way or tire i that the [question was the same as it there was 0 ° other. As a Minister of Justice, he had a duty to I interference, except as a circumstance (for if perform, and it, was neither decent nor candid to Yeoman had a stone thrown at him in the crowt t ; impute .personal feelings to him in discharging that it was a circumstance but not a cotteluaion), th e !. which his situatiots and his conscience imposed the festal is very unimportant. The law whiel upon hint the necessity of doing. . He found it provides against illegal meetings d e clares, that necessary to premise thus much . , because he meant a body of people assemble in an illegal marine ( ' fearlessly to unmask the hypocrisy of the defence, their separating peaceably will be no aat i s f a ctiol" and above to the conviction of his Lordship and because , if a man brings a crowd of persons 1° ; the Jury, that four-fifths of the evidence with getber, he cannot say that be will afterwards b c Which they had for so many days been tortured, able to manage them. Where was the man 111 g had no more •to do with the points of could command fifty. tbousaud, lead them ab u t , this case, than they would have with any like wild beasts, and make them tame or 9 : t other meetiog at which any of the defendants vage at his pleasure ? No ore ' - could, and 1 0 0 ever attended. Had the Jury to look at the of all, Mr. Hunt. The Learned Couns el tbe e , tone and temper in which the defence was con- commented upon his own witnesses, and ° A, ducted—who could say, whether this was a cool nied that any one could be said to be periur ee ii inquiry into the criminal conduct of a number of He asked , did it follow that in a cro wd of nea r detendants in a Court of Justice, or a renewal of SO , G OO persons , if one, in a c ertain p ert of it, st l e , that that attempt, by menace and intimidation, to do stones thrown, and five hundred did not that the e 6 that here which was done at Manchester. Melan- fore he was a perjured man ? Mr. Hunt called 7 ; choly, indeed, would be the clay, when that spirit witnesses to prove that they saw no stones 61' 0 1 )0 of intimidation—that scorn of good order, and he might have called as many t h ous a nds to say 1 .0 that defiance of the law, which is so cherished same, but that did not diminish Mr. Hult °/1 4 out of doors, and that too, by men, whose talents credit. Mr. Hunt seemed to rely on bneeesa fr 9 r . would have done honour to a better cause, When the number of his witnesses. This was part , 0 1, 0 Courts of Justice were turned into hustings, siod system ea hich, he would show by a speech of 011, the verdicts of Juries were sought, not by cool own, he had long been preaching. It was an at e reasoning, but popular tumult, melancholy would ject with the discontented to intimidate Okie be the clay when it would make its way into the concerned in the' adMinistration of justice• 4) 0, sanctuary of the law. He wished not to live to would read it from a Newspaper, in which ` see the clay ; butt be it far 'off, or be it near, person was reported to have said it. cut e trbiltit be felt that liberty, life, property, and all Mr. Hunt----My Lord, tiore is no ect,, o tti that could endear existence, depended upon a doe whatever that this is my speech. I don't "`" administration of the laws, be would not cease to whether it is or not. o it raise his lounble voice, and exert his strength Mr. SCARLETT — My Lord, I can't sue"' ',ere in resisting its approach. God forbid any up- these interruptions. Is Mr. Hunt to dictat e prehension of popular feeling should prevent him tot)? I from doing his duty. He despised, he defied Mr. Justice BAYLEY—Mr. Scarlett, l eis them, and he should despise himself if he did not. I not dictate. I think, however, you may re a d Mr. SCARLET? then proceeded to notice some jas part of your speech. r rl r 0~, ferret ZVby zneeti Beca, ver a bt pears lidsi wide the beep was ing d vilest Was .a'Ser Ileop ter ? .11614 that . Inot the train feast Why Ct? legii of th 'Litt thito lie st taleu lle had that tical tnd firld t ogre( lowe The 3 versE theAl rig ii fro m 6 0 1, thes4 hre e essci 'wen 2 of y affil deg . !. but lmp( he e then 'flocs hie 'of t 1 to t from Lir, lilt liiiv Bold Man port systi read Mee alum calli 1 claMd tiv,„