The Sun. — London, England, 1849-02-07 00:00:00

EAST INDIA HOUSE. (THIS DAY.) A Special Ge n e ra l Cour% of the Proprietors of thin i"Vany was held to-day, at twelve o'clock, at the East ndia se at the desire of nine Proprietors of East 4 ndla Stock, as expressed in the fel:owing letter : " London, January 17, 1849. " To the Chairman and Directors of the East Indit. Company. " Honourable Sirs, l if ;_Yfe, the undersigned Proprietors of East India Stock, duly qua niZ b3' law, request that yen will convene, at your earliest conve takince, a Special General Court of Proprietors, for the purpose of g Into consideration the accompanying' Resolutions, and that - ""Will be pleased to publish the same with this, our requisition. " We have the honour to be, " Honourable Sirs, " Your obedient Servants, "JOSEPH HUME. "ARTHUR J. LEWIS. "J. SULLIVAN. "cnArtLEs FORBES. "JOHN POYNDER. "GEORGE FORBES. "JOHN BRIGGS. "CHARLES GRANT. "J. W. GRAHAM." „Thatk, by the treaty condoled between the East Ind a Company s e ” ' llB late Highness Pertaub Singh, Raja of Sattara, on the 25th t P h t rer, 1819; the territories of Sattara were secured to him and tre heirs in perpeteal sovereignty. That by the supplemental b r a t Y Or September, 1839, the said territories were confirmed to his 11 " APPa Sahib, as the nest collateral heir and successor, and to s 11.6. ln on the same terms as specified in the treaty of September, T hat this Court has heard with feelings of the deepest surprise Z i a alarm o f the contemplate d se i z ure, coring 3ation, and anne xa ti on, ~3 ' t he East India C o mpany, of the Sattara territories, in 'violation of '" e rights of the lawful heir; believing, as this Court does, that such seizure, confiscation, and annexation would be a most flagrant breach !the said t reat i es so so l em nly entered into and confirmed, would a disgrace and stain upon the British character, and would se ll:4l,lY weaken 'the confidence hitherto reposed by the princes and reaple of India in the justice and good faith of the East India COM kIY and of the British Government. "That under, such circumstances this Court deems it to be their imperative duty to declare their solemn conviction of the impolicy teel danger, no less than of the injustice of such a proceeding, and to e xpress their earnest hope that the Court of Directors and the Board tf Control will withhold their sanction from such a measure." " JAMES C. MELVILL, Secretary. The attendance of proprietors was very large. Sir S. Lushington took the chair at the appointed hour. Mr. RUNE, M.P., rose and said—Mr. Chairman, as one of those who have been instrumental in calling together this Court, and as the proprietors will 40 doubt expect some explanations as to the grounds on W hich they have been called together, an d th e o bj ect hich the requisitioni s t s h ave i n v i ew , I w ill p rocee d at ° ace briefly t o state t h em. It w i ll b e remembered, that in Dec em b er a C ourt was summoned. I was -tie of those who signed the requisition; but, being absent from town, I was unable to attend. the . L e object of that meeting. was to ascertain Iv : et her the Court of Directors contemplated the ;: B ,P, ° hsion of the treaty made with the late Raja of I ,Z` a ra, and thus to deprive his heirs of the property l' tc h appeared legitimately to belong to them by right. e°h feas I was among those who believed that no such Pro • kate.eechngs could take place without some further infor ,,_ ion however glee", they the Directors were not then, prase" L °eY may be now, possessed of. Had I been th e n t at that meeting I should have the an- 40.. adjournment of the Court, on th uncetaent of the Chairman that the whole matte r ems under the consideration of the Court, oge se°,l; with the papers which had just then arrived fr d om l iieislia•—(Hear, hear.) Such was my impression, an iteusequently took an opportunity of stating that was my adta s6 ion to some of the Directors whom I now see th ee i n d the t bar. I regretted much that any discussion coe v i' have taken place at that meeting, as I am ae ee n etn that any discussion, without the documents to e ` v . : j ar,Y to form a sound opinion, must inevitably lead s hoal at a conclusion opposite to that which we tesied arrive at if we had nad an opportunity of pe- , tech g hs the req u i s i te d ocuments. The possessioa of c ome lELh a of judging are necessar y before we can epe e "° a sound conc l us i on upon a ll t h e quest i ons wh i ch is such the attention of the Court, but more especially pili eh a course necessary when we have to decide upon is o tl e .q u estions of great i mportance; an d this question !ions ° Hi e w hich are in vo l ve d t h e mos t momen t ous con d a ls ' i n 4 f, Sir, I am correct l y i n f orme d, a f ter Mr. stat e the ab sence of Mr. Sull i van, ha d made his the ta i -,lt and su b m i tted his motion, upon which the "p u tt Chairman rose up and proposed the adiournaaent of the Court, you said that ee thMotion for the adjournment was submitted tlidcr...ground. that the question was receiving the con the :Loon or the directors, that is was sub jud i ce before ti"o"oo.trectors ' w ho would bring to it the best considera• th at t hey were enabled to do. You went on to state, p ie __es the papers which had recently arrived from India b e 7 , under the consideration of the directors, it would time r . t aetter to adjourn the Court, in order to afford r their Production and perusal by the proprietors. 40‘ecestatement would have induced me to advise my ther u urable and Learned Friend to postpone any fur had remarks until the di rectors an d t h e propr i etors h a d 54,1 4° °PPortunity of considering the papers. Now, Pri etc , wPPrebend that what was stated then led the pro nely -rs to imagine that the papers contained something --80roething which hid not up to that time been t broughthesc before us in this Court. It is quite possible that tag y t PaPers may be of a very important I . la . ture w , d hi v - end in a great measure to &ter the his o i p e in l i i e k n ely, hich but Whyt e formed . I do not know thatt tot myself may be tr ge ` w i : hare stated with respect The production of all N ers tith regard to others. tir e „ absolutely necessary before the proprietors can 4 0 , 1 ' 41 honest opinion, and come to an equitable decision fore them; and it would be at t he matters brough h t e 1 '.3 t . 14 f air, I think, to t t e e b e e whele of the proprietors for decision with respect to a th„.,",irectors to come th: s ." 01 1 which has been so long before the public, until f ullest information has been affrded them. Now, th Co u rt a j ourned to give the directors an opportu eit,„ e . tem producing these papers. lam sorry to see the re,noian shake his head.—(Laughter.) I would se,TY observe that a conventional feeling guides' the se,„"„uct of gentlemen in every station, and in every t0, , ,,hy which a fair opportunity is aff o rd e d t o every piaMi candidly expressing his opinion before a deter en. is arrived at.—(Hear, hear.) lam sure every i tv eete a the Court as well as myself, had I been present, its i t have concurred in the adjournment, and concurred e, he i r n the belief that the Court of Directors wished for alie t d time to consider as to the course which they that 'fl, ad opt.—(llear, hear.) I understood, in fact, h the e `u° 34 day of January had been fixed as •cro r ," ; a 3' on which they were to meet the etkiTeters, and to explain what they intended to do, • , (4 id tak e t h e i r opinion as to its policy and justice. t he hag ' he ar .) I say every man present, and every one b e read the remarks made . on that occasion, must war e t • 7 tlansressed with the belief that the documents Pos ss l oe produced, and that the adjournment was pr.o lonlktectin order that they might bo printed and cir 4„ilt,elvise among the Proprietors, and that they „ s ' ee e , - ; 'night be, enabled to have an opportunity ""nt oat to a decision before any orders were es.( oh t to India with respect to the territory of Sattara. cer a.) Now it is quite possible that men in 411, stations play 1 11 1, %sl ept y resort toexpadie . nts to . deceive, they l a s t e e_. coarse inconsistent with tam dealing, but !h4 atty 4 :9 such conduct will not answer with the public. ik e , ettin, therefore, that the fair interpretation . of the e 41 3 eft of the Chdirman at the last meeting was what els - Rated b efor - - , that the Proprietors were to have be' ore * I N, the, the hem ; and having had these papers be ore "deh • Y were then to take the whole question -640n is ° fle of th c ;h an, _ o e greatest importance T into . consider titertir6l","4lrry to find, from the intimation of the . ati ee w at he denies that any such in tle4 bee n ; is gircla Your intention, then, seems to 0 , na te ~,,oessain time. It was stated by an Hon. Gen ,:ttilj ee - r "Le last meeting who objected to the question MPer e ' l (tent, that they might again meet without the Young been produced, and that they might be ' , see are t ee htte—the question has been decided 41 ; 44 t. You hdavitee no longe r any right to interfere. d. the t t ,u L at th e t ors Nee, would take ers would so act was repudiate half was distinctly denied,such an advantage of the propr h ie- N ow, tin e °f the R a e th„' th e . .la, that we Sir, I complain on be that been deceived -I,ot the krOnll9o held. and the pledge given, l ea eoelluteeUourt was to adjourn, in order that h ave br edten a ...... ts from India should be published, have to e tint (Rear.) I complain that the Directors vet : deeparioodeueed these papers, and they have come Ne lla s " I t , to 'seize. conjunction with the God es th -a h ave e the Sattara territory, an W ith 6 whole _eeen sent out for the appropriation of ou t ot the territory of Sattara to the Company cl, th e ,; e here nce to any provision for the heirs easeo eased Raja. Now, Sir, if that is t ioa ' have On nio te lr to say that a t, transd pt*.teore ~.cti.screditable, more dishonourable, an eles tl e.rai ed :isk t elY to have a deep effect upon the terrtene has never in my long life been my lot to {s s : e Bri o he charge I thus make against the Direc- Vllie, s one, and must be investigated, I corn. _ O ll that you have stolen a march tl ,,s; -ro proerietors, to use a common phrase. 411310.a.es meoMplaia that you have stolen a march v°h" Unfairly, most improperly, and I ask you, 14 ,Y yellF it w_aa.right that you should have acted thus, and Aur d , r ezUsed to afford the Proprietors an opportu sil'• rit? l 'es 6eu saing the question after the production of the th Uleh ,Y ll what ground have you denied to us the right 1.0 possess of discussing all matters such as this, to,s'lleeially one in which the honour of the company ~kt,rerned, the faith of treaties, and the h ,1 1 4 4 es,, , ° F the English . nation . is inyclved?—(ciese a o - f bear.") For, Sir, if there is anything more I;tt'at4ble than another, it is that the faith of sacred No ,entered into between state and state should be ~suit e el violated And, Sir, I feel this the more be iu. • thi' ring the long period I have been a Proprietor, ateteiesa out y t t , l ;aoeeas i one i n selich I have attended have 'repeatedly stated that the I ka the tr (11 ! the East India Company was not owing more lq a ta i lr n w ,r of its arms than to.the good faith which it to "I Si i • - " a ined with native chiefs; and I have always sad peietsilat the combinations of native chiefs for no illi th !ach „ t ° Were broken asunder and rendered powerless, the , b ee rengthened in his relations with this corn. Ittlbnire they had no confidence in each other, as tuo — '°4 n ot be trusted, d that they put the most ai ll ti t 6 wr se f i 6 t i h t h iu this eon;pan " y`ena' account of the strict uti •ot W hiCh • - )1 all - it had kept, before the work', the 14 1 474, To e flgtigettients into which it had entered; eel e nter a re about to break agreements w hi c h • into with you in good faith—if you are fr TT-I.F, SUN, LONDON, about to set aside treaties solemnly entered into aithout peedily as possible.—(Hear, hear.) He thought no the sanction of the Proprietors, who by the tenor of the ,person who had read the discussion which took Act of Parliament under which we are incorporated obese at the last Court could sympathise with are themselves Governors, anti you are only appointed the sentiments of the Honourable Gentleman by them to carry on the g wernmena that confidence who had opened the debate.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. which has been heretofore reposed in you will be irre- Hume) made charges against his Hon. Friend the Chair parably shaken.—(llests.) I say you have acted most man of this Court, in language which he was sure the unfairly, because you led us to expect that our Hon. Gentleman would regret when he read it over in decision would be sought upon. the matter before his cooler moments. The Hon. Gentleman made use you came to a final decision. Under these cir- of the words " dishonourable," " disgraceful," and cumstances I will not enter into the general clues- " ill-advised," and the only comment he should tion whether treaties have been violated or not, mike upon them might be compressed into whether a young man who had been named as one sentence. They fell harmless upon his Hon. the successor of the deceased Raja, both by adoption Friend the Chairman, and only proved injurious to the and lineal descent, is entitled to the territory; and I be- person who had used them. But he was more lieve the person who claims to be the heir to astonished at the doctrine the Honourable Gentleman the territory has been indicated by the late had laid down with regard to the constitution of the Governor-General, Sir Robert Grant, as the real Court of Directors and the formation of the Company, heir—indicated, too, as such in all your documents. and he was the more surprised at this doctrine, because The question of his right, therefore, is quite inde it came from the lips of a gentleman who dendent of the question whether Pertaub Singh has was supposed to be an authority on matters betrayed or violated the treaty. The question is, is his connected with India. They e ere told by the family to be punished for any acts of which he may or Hun. Gentleman that the Court of Proprietors may not have been guilty? formed the Executive Government.—(No, no.) Some Mr. CLARKE said the Hon. Proprietor was out of gentlemen cried "No, no," but that was the meaning order, unless he int en d e d to conclude with a motion. of what the lion. Gentleman said ; but if that was not Mr. HUME replied that the Hon. Proprietor must the meaning of what he said, his words and observations know little of hi s p rac ti ce i t h e thought that he intended were altogether devoid of meaning. He said it was the to conclude without a motion.—(Laughter.) He was province of the Court of Proprietors to determ;ne the not, however, about to enter into the general question. powers of their executive, but ho very much doubted He merely wished to state that the successor of the whether the lion. Gentleman would be° able to sustain deceased Raja must not be held, in common parlance, that doctrine. Now, how stood this matter? When the implicated in any of the guilt which was laid to the discussion took place at the last meeting, his Hon. charge of his grand uncle. Having been informed by Friend the Chairman said the question was sub judice. the First Minister of the Crown that it Then said the Hon. Proprietor who introduced this mo was a fact that orders had gone our, with time, it was the duty of the Directors, according to the approbation of the Board of Control, to the Constitutional Government of India, before they confiscate the Sattara territory, he expressed his sincere decided upon,the question—before they communicated regret that the Directors had adopted so precipitate and their decision to the department who co-operated with uncalled-for a step, he begged to move that the Court them in the affairs of India—to call the Proprietors do adjourn for a fortnight or three weeks, together and con3ult them upon it.--(Hear, hear.) Now, in order that the papers might be in the hands that was the statement of the Honourable Gentleman, of the Proprietors. By law, he believed that the Pro- but he (Sir J. Hogg) denied that that was the prietors were entitled to copies of all documents which constitutional Government of India. Everybody were laid berme the House of Commons. He had could see the peril and the error at once of al'ow spoken thus strongly because he felt strongly the dis- ing a controlling body to form part of the Exe grace—he would call it the infamy, which attached cutive Government. It would be an endless to every one connected with the East India Company, source of danger for the Executive Government in consequence of the course it had adopted. If disgrace to be continually consulting the proprietary body upon attached to persons in private life who committed a matters like these. They had example of this every glaring breach of faith, how much more so must they day—every session they had example of this, more par condemn a great Company who committed such an act as titularly in the Foreign Department of the Executive this? It was not so much with respect to the stain of the Government. A question was asked respect deceased Raja's family that he spoke thus, but of the ing some matters pending, in the course of faith of the treaties which were about to be violated, negotiation, and the Foreign Secretary rose and stated and the disgrace which would thereby be brought upon that the matter was sub judice. It was under considera his name. The Honourable Gentleman subsequently Lion, and 'he could not answer the question for rea amended his motion, and moved for copies of the sons which the Executive Government and the papers which he had moved for in the House of Corn- Minister representing her Majesty did not feel -mons, in order that they might be circulated among the disposed to state. Perhaps a week or a fortnight Proprietors.—(Cheers.) afterwards the same question was repeated, and the The CHAIRMAN said he had no hesitation nor objet- Member was informed that the thing was done—accom tion on the part of the Directors to have the papers re- plished; but the Minister was willing and ready to lay the ferred to published and circulated among the Pro- papers before the House, that parties might pass their prietors.—(Hear, hear.) The proposition for the ad- judgment upon the conduct of the Executive Government. journment of the Court could not receive the assent of Then some one jumped up and said "We are always too the Directors. It would take some time to prepare the late or always too soon," upon which the Minister replied papers, and when the Proprietors had perused them, the that he had acted strictly in accordance with the eonstitu- Directors would be happy to attend to any requisition Lion. If the constitution was wrong, alter it, but while that might be presented to them fur the it existed adhere to it. It was at least the duty of their purpose of calling another meeting.—(Hear.) He could Executive Government, to adhere to it, and there was, not, however, resume his seat without calling the atten- therefore, np cause of complaint. That was exactly the Lion of the Court to the very hard terms in whi c h th e same in this Court. It was not competent for the Court Hon. Proprietor had spoken of the Directors.—(Hear, of Directors to wait for the decision of the Proprie hear.) At the last meeting he did not make use of the tors before they determined any question ; but it observation which the Hon. Gentleman had imputed would be physically and morally impossible to placethe to him. Indeed it would have been most unconstitutional government of this Company inj a proprietary body in him to place executive powers in tho hands of the numbering upwards of 2,000 persons. They were, Proprietors. therefore, bound to select some body to form an Execu- A PROPRIETOR rose to order. The motion had not five. If, however, that system was wrong, it was com been seconded. petent for the Proprietors to change it, or at Mr. HUME then proposed his moti on i n ex p ress t erms — least make an end ea v o ur t o d o so , b ut d o not " That the papers connected with the appropriation of let Hon. Proprietors get up in the manner they had the Sattara territory, and the decision of the Court, and just witnessed, and apply allures of ill names to the any minutes connected with that decision, should be laid Chairman and Directors, because they had done their before the Proprietors as speedily as possible." He had duty in acting according to the constitution and laws consulted the President of the Board of Control on the of the Company. (Hear, hear.) But when subject, and he was of opinion that that was the bast a man used harsh or hard language, it induced him to form in which to frame his motion. arrive at one of two conclusions, either the party using Mr. LEWIS seconded the proposition. such language had a bad temper or a bad cause.— Mr. CLARKE said no pledge was given by the Chairman (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Now his Hon. Friend had at the last meeting that he should produce any of the not a bad temper. lie was known in the House papers.—(Hear) No such inference or deduction could of Commons to be of an excellent temperament. be made from the observations which the Chairman sub- He had been tried beyond all men in the House, mitted to the meeting. and had been proved to be the man least open The CHAIRMAN was glad the Honourable Pro- to give offence, and the least open to offence. It prietor had made the statements he had, as it was admitted by common consent that, amidst prevented him from replying to the hard terms the heat and strife of parties, he was one of used towards himself and the Directors by the Hon. the best tempered men in the House. He never Proprietor (Mr. Hume). He could only truly and said a hard thing of any body, and seldom or never took distinctly state that no pledge of the kind was given to offence at any one, although he frequently bad good the Court of Proprietors. He only said that the papers cause to do so. The conclusion he had come to at all had arrived, and that they were sub judice under the events was, that he never lost his temper, and consideration of the Directors. It never, he assured the he cculd not for the life of him help think- Proprietors, entered his mind that first of all they were to ing that he must have a bad cause.—(Hear, hear.) be submitted to the Court of Proprietors, They were not It often struck him that whenever the Hon. Gentleman the executive government ; the time lied not arrived got up to speak upon this unfortunate Sattara question when the directors were to surrender that power to the lie felt a little uneasy in his temper. He could not Proprietors. The Honourable Member had been help thinking that the Honourable Gentleman felt correctly informed by the Hirst Minister of within himself as though he would rather say, the Crown, that the question of the right to " Alack-a-day, what a miserable hour it was when the territory of Sattara had been settled in con- I first took up this unfortunate Sattara, question. lam junction with the Board of Control, and that the confis- perfectly ashamed of it myself; and of the part I have cation of the territory had been determined upon. It taken in it."—(Hear, and laughter.) He could not for was not improper for the Proprietors to discuss the mat- the life of him, with all his constitutional good humour, ter then, but it appeared to him that they would not be preserve his usual equanimity of manner and feeling in a position to give a fair opinion until they had had when he got up to speak upon this topic, and an opportunity of perusing those papers which, as he he (Sir J. W. Hogg) could not help thinking that had said, would be circulated among them with the least the Hon. Gentleman heartily regretted that he was ever possible delay. He was un wilting- to name any peril- drawn into becoming the advocate of such a cause as eular day for the adjournment of the Court. When the this.—(Cheers.) Proprietors had mace themselves acquainted with their Mr. Home must really be allowed to say a word or contents another meeting might be caned by requisition. two in explanation. Often as he had occasion to Mr. DONALDSON said he was present at the last meet- complain of the Honourable Baronet being in ing, and certainly his impression of what the Chairman the wrong ho bad never known him so far wrong as stated with regard to the production of the papers was he was now.—(dear, hear, and laughter.) But, not exactly as that stated by the Hon. Gentleman who had withstanding the observations of the Hon. Baronet, he just sat down.—(Hear, hear.) did not regret one word, or one argument he had made Mr. LEWIS, as the mover of the resolution:at the last use of; but he must complain that the Honourable meeting, might, perhaps, ba allowed to state what his Baronet had taken his words without the previous impression was upon the subject. When he had con- remarks. What he said was this, the Court separated, eluded by moving his resolution, and after he as far as he knew, with the understanding th a t th e y had stated his arg umen t s i n support o f i t, an d were to b e informed of the decision of the Court, and to it had been duly seconded, the Chairman rose and stated have the papers before them before a final that he felt it to be his duty to adjourn the Court settlement was come to of the question. An on the ground that the time had not arrived for the adjournment took place upon that understanding, and it consideration of the subject, as it formed a matter then was in that belief that he made use of the words re underathe deliberation of the Court of Directors.— ferred to.--(Bear, hear.) With regard to the ex (Hear, hear.) Now he put it to any person-who heard planation of his Honourable Friend, in reference to the that statement whether the plain and only intelligible constitution of the :Company, the instance he had inference to be drawn from that declaration was not mentioned was exactly in point, for upon one that before an actual decision was come to on the Sat- occasion he called for papers which were not produced. tara question, and before a final dispatch was sent The Hon. Gentleman said, in that case, he (Mr. Hume) out to India confirming the decision, that Court had no right to pass an opinion upon what followed, but would have an opportunity of stating their views what was the case? Why, when these papers were and opinions on the matter?—(Hear, hear.) That was produced he himself moved in the House of Com the plain and common sense inference to be drawn from mons a vote of censure upon the Minister for what the Chairman's statement. True, he did not actually he had done. It was, therefore, not inconsistent with say that the papers should be laid before them, but the the constitution to discuss the decision of the Directors, only inference to bo drawn from the tone and manner of and his Honourable Friend, in future, when he got the Chairman was, that the papers would be forth c o m i ng , upon t h e h i g h h orse, wou ld do well to take care that he and the Court would have another opportunity of fully and did not ride him into the mud.--(Hear, hear, and impartially discussing the question before the Executive laughter.) He would not do more now than simply came to a final decision upon it. That was the natural say that in applying the epithets he had done he did inference which the statement of the Chairman led to; so sincerely, believing that the conduct of the Directors although he did not mean to say that the Chairman merited them, while he could assure the lion. Baronet, made any pledge, but he represented that it was dis- and he would give him credit for truth, when he said the tinctly understood that they should have an opportunity Hon. Baronet was mistaken in supposing that he (Mr. of discussing th - s question before the dispatch was sent Hume) fancied his cause was a bad one.—(Hear, hear.) out.—(Hear, hear.) Sergeant GAZELEE gave it as his opinion that those Mr. liEwsoN really could not understand what repeated adjournments of the Courts called for special ground of complaint the gentlemen who had been purposes were illegal and unconstitutional, and begged instrumental in calling the meeting could urge to give notice to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who against the Directors. The Honourable Gentleman was then standing counsel of the Company, and who who had just addressed them said they were who was considered the highest authority in the kingdom to have another opportunity of discussing the question. upon such points, that at the next Court he should put For his part, however, he thought they had already had a question to him upon that matter, and he hoped the the fullest opportunity for discussion and placing their Hon. and Learned Gentleman would come prepared to opinions before the Court of Directors, who, no doubt, give him an answer.—(Hear, hear.) had given them all the consideration that they were worth. A PROPRIETOR begged to asked if the notice of motion —(Hear, hear.) The Court of Directors was the only had any relation whatever to the question before them? tribunal to decide the question. The Court of Pro- The CHAIRMAN—It has nothing whatever to do prietors might give its opinion upon it, and the Hon. with it. Gentleman who had just sat down and his friends en. Mr. Sergeant GASELEE said, however that might tered at large into their views at the last Court, and he be, he was quite sure that the Honourable and was quite surprised that the Honourable Gentleman who Learned Gentleman would make a note of his notice had introduced the question today had not well consi and be prepared to answer his question at the next meet dered the proceedings of the last Court before he von- ing. He would now proceed to the matter in discus tured to make such sweeping charges against the Court sion. He had always expressed himself in that Court of Directors.—(llear, hear.) It was an odd thing that in courteous terms, and he had never failed to treat he should now be called upon to defend the con- every one with courtesy and respect. He sistency of the gentlemen who took part in the could not, however, help regretting that the Chairman discussion at the last Court, who had certainly put a had been placed in a most unfortunate position, because, construction upon the!statement of the chairman which assuming for a moment that the epithets applied to the by no means justified his being told that his conduct and Hon. Gentleman were not applicable to him, it would, at that of his co-directors was repugnant to every all events, be admitted that he had been unfortunate in principle of honesty or fair dealing, and a his words and expressions, if they had led to a misunder violation of good faith and the law of na- standing. It was a most extraordinary fact that in this tions, and calculated to cast an indelible slur and Court when words were misunderstood, they were stain upon the character of the Company.—(Hear, always misunderstood against the Proprietors and their hear.) How could that be? The Hon. Gentleman stig- rights, and in favour of the Directors.—(Laughter.) One matised their conduct in those terms because they would almost think that the words addressed from the had not allowed the question to be discussed before they chair were intended to be misunderstood, but he ven came to a decision upon it. Why the Honourable Gen- Lured at the last meeting to warn the Proprietors that tleman who introduced the resolution at the last Court they ought to discuss the matter fully then, for he was entered into long arguments to prove the truth of his quite certain that when they came again they would be position, and he was followed, true, not at great length, told it was too late; but the words of the Chairman by a seconder, who insisted that, according to the laws no doubt intentionally induced the meeting to think and usages of India, the heir of the late Raja ought to otherwise.—(Hear, hear.) He agreed with his Hon. be adopted and acknowledged by the Court.—( Hear, Friend that the impression he and others went away hear.) Well, then, these gentlemen, and every man with was, that the question was to be submitted to them who attended the Court, had had an ample opportunity again before any fresh decision was come to upon it, of giving their opinion upon the subject. At the last and it was a breach of good faith on the part of the Di- Court, the fullest latitude was given to them for doing rectors not tc have kept that promise.—(Hear, hear.) so, while the directors in no way attempted to stop the The CHAIRMAN—I trust the lion. and Learned Gen investigation. No doubt the directors were dis- tleman will not misinterpret what I did say, bat I will posed to be influenced by that discussion as presently read to the Court what I said. I deny most posi far as its merits deserved, and he was Lively that I intended such a construction to be put upon quite convinced they considered and duly weighed the my words as to lead to a belief that the question of the arguments adduced, on the last occasion of their meeting, Raja of Sattara would be submitted to their before they came to the resolution to send out the future consideration. Now this is what I did dispatch ; and ho was satisfied they were undeserving of say, and whether the fact I have stated is the vituperation which had been heaped upon them. correct or not the Proprietors will see. I should Major OLIPHANT said, it appeared to him that there be ashamed of myself if I ever said a single was very little difference of opinion amongst them on word holding out a deceptive belief. The whole the point in dispute; but he could assure the proprietors conduct of my life will gainsay anything of the that the majority of the gentlemen behind the bar would sort. I will read now to the Court what the ready an d willing to give their reasons for the course I did say, and aft e r th a t, I w ill no t answer s('-e y h was ad n 3urosued when the Court met again. In the any further complaint th a t may b e ma d e . wean time he m i g ht perhaps be allowed to state that Mr. Sergeant GAZELE E —It i s excee di ng l y disagree therediffereuce of opinion in the Court of able to be interrupted in this way. Directors upon the question, and as !the Chairman had The CHAIRMAN—I call you to order, because you already consented to the production of the papers, he ma k e a mos t unwarrantable attack upon me. This is could see ;reason for any further discussion.—(Hear,) what was taken by the short-hand writer:— Sir e J. W. OGO agreed with his honourable col- el t i s not m y intention to reply to the statements and Direction a papers for ev the re was no difference of opinion in arguments advanced as regards this case; when the pro thes to the propriety of producing the per time arrives I shall be ready to express my opinion cry pqmio, a g en t l eman, ndthe no r :atter whether ain reg ard to the appropriation of the Sattara territory ; but Proprietor or a Director,f was equally interested in f ac t lam nut prepared for it now. and therefore shall in the settlement therefore highly - desirable this question. It was not say a word in answer to the Hon. Proprietor. I laid before the _, that th e papers should be may state that the general question is sub judice. 4.11 tter disposed of as WEDNESDAY EVEN:ING, the documents are before the Directors, who will duly consider them, I am sure, with every attention to what is right and proper. I know they will act in consistency with the expressed opinion of this Court, that it is better to leave the matter at present in the hands of the Executive whom the Proprietors have no minated. All, therefore, I have to say is, that it will be in the recollection of the Court of Proprietors that, no longer ago than two or three months, a motion was made in substance precisely the same as this now before the Court of Proprietors. Under these circum stances, I am quite sure that I shall have the support of the Court in adopting the same course which was then taken—moving the adjournment of the Court. That is the course which was pursued on that occasion, and certainly should again be followed, now the matter is under the consideration of the Court of Directors. I therefore move that this Court do now adjourn." Now, if any Proprietor can put a construction upon that to the effect that before the Court of Directors came to any decision on the subject, it would be submitted to the Proprietors, I cannot agree with him. I had; no intention whatever to hold out such an impression, for, as I said before, it would have been unconstitutional for me to do so, as the Pro prietors have nothing lo do with the decision; and I must c wiess that I am rather surprised that the Hun. and Learned Proprietor should have attacked me in the manner he has done. The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN then rose to address the Court, but vi as called to order by The CHAIRMAN, who reminded him that Mr. Sergeant Gazelee was in possession of the chair. Mr. Sergeant GAZELEE, after complaining of the unwarrantable interruption of the Deputy-Chairman, and complimenting the Chairman for his impartial conduct in putting his colleague down, proceeded to in sist, that with regard to the question of ictegrity and honour ho stood upon an equal footing with the Chair man or any other member of the Court. The Chairman had read them his speech from the short-hand writer's notes, and he should be glad to know who it was that paid for those notes, or whether the short-hand writer was paid only for reporting the Directors, or for reporting everything that occurred. If the latter, he must say that some very garbled reports had been made of his speeches, indeed in many instances his speeches had been so altered that he did not know them when he saw them again.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Now, with regard to the subject -matter in dispute, he did not impute any improper motives to the Chair, but he did maintain that the Chairman had been placed in an unfortunate position by his language at the last Court having been misunderstood ; for, intentional or not, the:words ad dressed from the chair induced a belief that another occa sion woulal be afforded them for discussing the_question. But he must be allowed to enter his protest against the system which prevailed in that Court, whenever a troublesome question came on, of the Chairman moving an adjournment. He appreciated the value of the entertainments and good :dinners given at the East India House as much as any man , but neither good dinners nor any other in ducement ought to lead to the shirking of this question of the Raja of Sattara. It seemed to be always arranged that whenever it came on the Chairman should move an adjournment, and now they were to be put down by being told that their cause was a bad one becanse they did not keep their temper. —(Hear, bear, and laughter.) Did they see him out of temper? On the contrary, he was never more cheerful and inclined to be good humoured in his life.—(H ear . ) Now came the ques t ion. Up rose Sir James Hogg, an d turned all this into fun; but what was fun to him was death to the Raja of Sattara and his friends. Sir J.Hogg, had very great tact in turning things into fun and ridi cule, and that was the way in which the poor Raja of Sattara and his affairs were treated. He (Mr. Sergeant Gazelee) agreed with Sir J. Hogg, it c p t ow of er p to ar s i a ia y : the constit u ti o n o f the Court of Director s was bad, that it should be altered, and any o the Directors were bad that they should be turned out m ‘ I‘ It enwt Turn a us constituting o a s lol t iut very well h theefact for Court watsh, o m tshe a a d mt e inte t hn h e ei A r se at s annual. The Directors never gave him (Mr. Sergeant Gazelee) any invitation to any of their grand dinners.—(Laugh ter)—and he said from the bottom of his soul, turn them out.—(Renewed laughter.) The more people saw of the mockery of their proceedings the more would it be seen to be necessary th a t honest and upright men should be sent into th e C our t of Directors. Sir When J. Hogg likened the Court of Directors to the Foreign office of the House of Cotnwons, it was a very bad pre cedent. With gr ea t res p ec t t o him, he Mr. Sergeant Gazelee) would suppose that Sir J. Hogg was a member of a large constituency. Suppose a question of great importance came on for discussion, would Sir J. Hogg condescend to ask his constituents not to give up the re. presentative character, for that would be treating it as a matter of delegation, but to ask their advice ? He was sure in such a case Sir J. Hogg would not say that the way in which he would act would depend whether the election was near at hand or not.—(Laughter.) Sup pose the question was one of education, would he consider it as infra dig. to consult the Dissenters upon it, or would he treat them, as he did the Proprietors, as men of straw ? He (Sergeant Gazelee) did not mean to say that the electors were to control the votes of the representative, but he said every man would not consult his constituents, and say " Mr. So-and-so, you are the mover, and you, tMr. So-and-so, are the seconder of my nomination, what are the wishes of the constituency on such and such a question, I don't mean to say it shall influence me; but just, it you can, say what Mr. So-and so thinks, and I don't thick, it will affect • my dignity to attend to it." That was the whole question, It out of the Directors held up his hand, fifty others of the Di rectors held up their hands immediately ; if one of them cachinated, there were fifty others who cachinated im mediately. But if Sir J. Hogg could divert their atten tion from a matter by his fun, if he could make them laugh and tut n them from the subject under consideration, why his purpose was gained. Let the meeting contrast their demeanour when in office with their deportment when, as candidates, they came bowing and scraping to ask the opinions and the suffrages of the Proprietors. When those gentlemen got into the direction, was it to be tolerated that th e y were to treat the Proprietors with contumely. He cautioned the Proprietors not to be mis led ; the Directors were endeavouring to put this matter on a false point ; they were misinterpreting Mr. Hume's words, and were endeavouring to make the Proprietors believe that they, the Proprietors, wanted to take upon them the settlement of this ques tion. Even if the Proprietors were willing to do this, why they would be swamped by the influence of the body of Directors, and there would be an end of the matter. He (Mr. Serjeant Gazelee) claimed it as a right, not to dictate to the Directors, but to give his opinion. They might treat his opinion with contempt. but all he asked and prayed for was, that they should do him the favour of listening to that opinion, which was fearlessly expressed. But let not the Proprietors be misled; the attempt was not to alter the constitution of the Court of Directors, but it was to advise in the matter. He thought if the places were given away a Attie more according to merit, and less according to nepotism, the Directors would come out of these matters with a great deal more credit, and the Proprietors would not be laughed at. He be lieved the Chairman to be a most honourable man. He (Mr. Sergeant Gazelee) believed he had no sinister intention; but he said it was a little unfortunate that he led the Proprietors to believe that before the matter was settled they should be called together, not to dictate. but to advise in the matter. An Hort. PROPRIETOR said it might be in the recollection of the Chairman of the Court of Directors that he was present at the last meeting, and that he then made a suggestion after the Chairman's amend ment, a hich the meeting was pleased to approve of, and stated themselves ready to adopt; and therefore he was now anxious, particularly if Mr. Hume should be present, to state his views of what really took place, which he was bound to state as an independent proprietor fully confirmed the report which the Secretary had been pleased to read. He should be very brief in the observations he had to make, because really it could be stated in a minute. There was a motion made by Mr. Lewis, and seconded by some other gentleman, after which the Chairman immediately moved the adjourn ment of the Court, in the words reported, as nearly as possible, by the Chairman himself. There was then some discussion as to a matter of form only, and on that he (the Hon. Proprietor) suggested to Mr. Lewis and the seconder of the then motion to withdraw it.--ealear, hear.) He made that suggestion, because the. Chai rman's amendment would then, as a matter of course, fall to the ground. What then took place? If, as Mr. Hume supposed, the Chairman had made his amendment with the intention that the Di rectors would prepare the papers and lay them be fore the Proprietors, was it credible that the mover and seconder would have immediately withdrawn their motion? , Theyi, continued the discussion; for some time aferwards. Therefore he (the Hon. Proprietor) hoped, at least, after what he had stated, his Learned Friend, Mr. Sergeant Gazelee, would see he must have been altogether mistaken about the matter. Surely, after the statement now made, his Learned Friend would retract anything be had said harshly of the Chairman. (the Hon g Proprietor) had no interest in the matter further than to see that dis cussions of this kind among the Court of Directors and the bodylof Proprietors were conducted with decency and propriety.—( Hear.) It might be Mr. Sergeant Gazelee wa s a candidate for the directorship,—(Laughter.) g e could not say wether that was so or not, but at present he (the Hon. Proprietor) thought he, Mr. Sergeant Gazelee, had rather confounded the two characters of proprietor and director. Mr. LEWIS thought the sooner the discussion was dropped the better; but there was one question which he wished to put to the Chairman. Mr. Clarke had asked ~the Chairman at the last meeting whether or not he had referred the question to Mr. Elphinstone? The meeting all knew that Mr. Elphinstone was a per son competent to decide that question, and therefore it was necessary to see what his opinion was, both as to the construction of the treaty, and as to the position of the parties. He (Mr. Lewis) wished to know whether the Chairman had done so? A PROPRIETOR said that it was a most extraordinary thing that those who propounded the laws should have the power to explain them. It was for the judges to explain the laws, and not the Directors. The CHAIRMAN said when the Proprietors saw the papers they would see whether Mr. Elphinstone's name was mentioned or not. He could not answer the ques tion further. Mr. LEwrs thought the Chairman would find that to be the opinion of the meeting. The public would be startled to think that this question had been argued without reference to Mr. Elphinstone, and that the thing had been concluded without his being consulted. Mr. Ilutue's motion, that the papers be printed And circulated amongst the Proprietors, was then put to th e meeting and carried. The Court then adjourned. FEBRUARY 7, 1849. guage used by the Hon. Member who had just sat down, he felt convinced that the House would not shrink from its duty in granting relief to the poor of Ireland. But, although he felt grateful to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the solicitude he had expressed on their behalf, and for the ready manner in which he had come forward, he believed that the proposition was in itself wrong, and was calculated to take away the energy and self-denial of the people. The re sources of the cauntry were amply sufficient, if developed, to enable the people of Ireland to maintain their own poor, and what he contended ought to be done was, to pass some measure to bring about s uc h a resu l t. By making advances for the cultivation and improvement of the land the ener gies of the people might be stimulated, and the resources of the country fully brought out. Sir J. WALSH said the House had been called upon to vote upon no question which involved considerations of greater pain and difficulty than did that on the pre sent occasion.—(Hear.) When they had a deficient revenue, and when many classes were involved in deep distress, and were struggling under great privations, it was the bounden duty of representatives to exercise the strictest vigilance before they acceded to this vote. What assurance had they after their repeated sacrifices on behalf of Ireland that the condition of the country would be improved, and that they would not be called upon again to pursue the same J line of conduct and vote further sums of money ? He was convinced that no good could ever be done un!ess there should be a revision of the principle of the poor-law, and that that principle should be approached in a spirit of conviction that great' mistakes had been made in the constitution of the Irish poor-law. The Irish law had, he felt assured, been productive of only one decided effect, and Vast effect was the pauperization of the whole of the country. He could not understand hew the Hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. P. Scrope) had arrived at his conclusions. It seemed, indeed, most strange to him that the charging the arrears of the poor-laws upon the land could have any other effect than that of continually depre ciating the property which was the most stable in its cha• racter and most permanent in its value.—(Hear, hear.) To him it appeared perfectly clear that the more they imposed burdens upon land already allowed to be wrought out of all profit, and on which there was now evidently no stock to distrain, the more difficulties they would have to encounter. What, then, was this grant? Why, nothing more than a vain attempt to bolster up this system which contained within itself, without any further admixture, the seeds of its own destruction. (The Hon. Baronet then read from the evidence of the late Committee a number of instances to show that he was borne out in his assertion that the system had only been hitherto productive of evil.) They were doling out little insignificant sums which were fitted to postpone a conclusion, but w hi c h" were in fact only instrumental in aggravating the mischief of the end at which they were sure to arrive if they continued this poor-law in Ireland.—(Hear.) Heavily as the resources of England were taxed, and necessary as it was to economise the means at their command to the utmost, he did believe that it would be not only a wise policy but the truest economy to advance such a sum as would at once rescue that unhappy land from the distress in which it was immersed. But convinced that such a paltry pittance, sufficient to con tinue what he belived to be a great evil, but totally inade quate to permanently deliver a fine country from any of those miseries to which they had been so long subjected—thinking this to be the case, he felt compelled to throw upon the Go vernment the whole of the responsibility of this unwise and impolitic attempt, and should give the measure all the oppo sition in his power.—(Hear, hear.) Lord EDWARD HOWARD said that as the representa tive cf a borough in a district which was not only purely agricultural as to its character, but also singularly poor in its circumstances, he felt compelled to say a few words upon the subjeot before the House. He did not intend to enter upon the details which had already been so largely dealt in from all sides of the House, and especially from those gentlemen who came from Ireland— such a contrariety of state ment that no reliance could possibly be placed upon merely barren assertions. But, taking the broad principle of the necessity of relief where urgent and immovable distress ex isted, when he saw Hon. Gentlemen on the opposite ride of the House deprecating that relief, he was obliged to contra dict the declaration, that Ireland was continually coming as a beggar to that House to help it out of its distress. During the last winter, in ;;.his district, the ut most want had been endured, but it had been endured with a tranquillity and calmness which was equally honourable to the peasantry and those who were above them. He wished to be no advocate for rebellion—he was no apo logist for insurrection ; but of this he must warn the House, that this tranquillity might be tried too long. The Irish might be idle--and be was, with all regret, compelled to say so, that they were idle in their own country—but was it not notorious that they were proportionably industrious and able elsewhere? He was always convinced that in order to get out of any man a fair day's work they must give him something to work upon.—((sheers.) Let them remember that patience might be tried too long, and that if driven by distress there was a possibility that more money would be required to pay the troops and support the police, than was now asked for to save the people from starvation.—(Hear, hear.) He be lieved that a new era had arisen upon Ireland, and that the landlords had commenced upon a new plan of proceeding, and that the money now sought for would be well and judi ciously expended.—(Cheers.) Mr. HUME (who had previously risen), said that he did not regret that he had given way to the Noble Lord, but he must remind the 'Noble Lord that the money which had formerly been advanced for the relief of the distress in Ire land had notoriously been applied to the very purpose which he now so much deprecated—for the purpose of re bellion.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He did not blame the landlords of Ireland. There was no class of men whose posi tion he more deeply or sincerely commiserated, and whose position he verily believed had been occasioned in a great measure, if not entirely, by the false legislation of this country. Some of the landlords might not have done their duty, but, upon the whole, lie believed they were not so culpable as they had been represented.—(Hear, hear.) No mau had lifted his voice more frequently or more strenuously against this bad legislation than he had, and he would not on that account have opposed this grant. But he opposed it on principle, and he was firmly convinced that the advance of money from this country had no other effect than that of dislocating all the bonds of society. He opposed this grant on principle, because whenever relief was proposed it had always been declared that remedial measures should accompany every such grant. Those remedial measures had not been introduced, and therefore he opposed, and always should oppose, any such grant.—(Bear, hear.) Lie opposed it on principle, for the first step was th e great m i sch i e f . Evil only had followed from these grants. What he wanted was that Ireland should support her own poor. What was the case? Why he found that the average rating of Ireland was only, during the last year, 2s. 9d. in the pound, while he himself lived i n a parish (Whittlebury, in Norfolk, we un:lerstood) in which the rating for the poor was 16s. 6d. in the pound. To Ireland the amount granted last year in aid of the poor-rates was 231,4311. In Ulster the assessment had been is. 10d., while the money collected had only been . Is. Bd. • in Munster the assessment had b e en 3s. 10i1., and the money collected 3s. ;in Leinster the assessment was 2s. 40., the amount collected 3s. 2d. ; and in Connaught the assessment was ss. 7d., while the money collected was barely two shillings. Granting first one sum after another was plainly not of the slightest benefit to the people of Ireland, but was, on the contrary, far more injurious than beneficial, tending only to demoralise the people, and impoverish the whole country. They must remember that they were but stewards of the public money, and that it was their positive duty to resist the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr. A. STAFFORD, after paying a handsome compliment to Lord Edward Howard for his speech, said that before that Noble Lord complained of the conduct of the Gentlemen on his side of the House he should re collect what their conduct had been. Since he came into the House he had taken the trouble to cast up the statements, and he found that thirty-one unions in Ireland were in great difficulty, and twenty in a state of absolute bankruptcy. These twenty unions contained not less a population than a million and a half.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member (Mr. Hume) had amalgamated the rates in the provinces of Ulster and Connaught, and had produced a result which gave no idea of the average amount of rating in Ireland. It reminded him of an anecdote told of an old gentleman, 70 years old, who made an offer of marriage to a young lady of 20. She objected on the score of age, " but," said the old gentleman, " when we are united, our average age will be 45."—(Laughter.) He had no hesitation in stating that every grant of this kind would propitiate instead of alleviating the miseries of Ire land. —(Hear. hear.) The area of taxation was at the root of all evils in Ireland, and until they considered that subject, and with the view to an alteration in the poor-law, they might grant loans to double the amount of the national debt without producing any good effect.—(Cheers.) Sir W. SOMERVILLE alluded to the opinions expressed by lion. Members, and said they might turn and twist the question as they chose, but they could not prevent them selves coming to the conclusion that the grant was neces sary if they wished to preserve the lives of the people. He believed that not one of the remedies propounded to-day, if it had been adopted at an earlier period, would have pre vented the Government from coming down to the House and making the proposition now under discussion.—(Hear.) Ireland was, at this moment, suffering under the greatest calamity which could befal any country—the article of food upon which the chief part of the population subsisted had been destroyed for three consecutive years.— (Hear, hear.) Then, under these circumstances, what were they to do? The evils of Ireland could not be remedied all of a sudden; the process, whatever it might be, must neces sarily be of long duration, and if temporary aid was not given in the meantime the destruc tion of a vast amount of human life would be the consequence. If loans were given upon the repro ductive system, as recommended by the Hon. Member for Stroud, he believed that a much greater amount of money would be required than was anticipated by the House. He would state one fact, and leave the House to draw its own conclusion from it—viz., that under the Labour Reli e f A c t as many as 700,000 able-bodied persons were under the em ploy and pay of the Government, and if the reproductive plans proposed were carried out, it might with great reason be expected that the persons seeking relief would be treble that number.—(Hear, hear.) Whatever result might be ar rived at, he trusted that, at all events, the amendment would not be assented to. He believed, if the generosity of the House did not step in, a loss of life would ensue which would be dreadful to contemplate. But he felt, however, perfectly convinced that the Members of that House, and the British people out of doors, would not offer any opposition to the resolution proposed by his Right Hon. Friend.—(Hear.) Mr. HERBERT said if the House rejected the motion it would, in fact, amount to a sentence of death upon a great number of people. He h a d s p en t t en d a ys upon a relie f e Committee in Ireland in e n d eavour i n g to bring abouotunsom , unity of action among th e l an dl o rds of that c ountry. try but he found that it was utterly impossible to s ac complish Wm that object while the area of taxation remained it In fact, that was at the root of most of the country, and while that remained all plans o end in no permanent benefit.—(Hear.) f evils r eli e f i in would that of M th r e . E E x . e ß h . e m r u p p l e question was whether t 1 i mm ediate remedy Ireland, but because it was theon y qrjer,linEotsbupecpaoursteeditthe vf m as ot t r b on e of the e r C em ha e n d c y el f l o o r r an d without any means of a large body o food proposed for the relief of the existing f people in a Th b e an s district of Ireland, without support, were to h a ve any assistance em, of her Majesty's Government were and if the proposition wouldbe aff o o a rd t e h d e t s o hou th lders hear.) o f those who rejected it.—(Hear, if the Hon. Sir G. GREY said that Member for not passed the responsibility North amptonshire (Mr. Stafford) had come down to the House with any sufficient data respecting the area of taxation, they might, with some probabi ity of being effective, have brought in a Bill for regulating the areas of the townlands ; but he might state what he had a nd been there received ere w as , in related fact said the other night, that this was n o t th e subject before the all.' partfh e o r e t ) theor t which country,had only y us t e o aa small t a power under the poor-law as at present constituted to re: gulate these areas. He, therefore, thought that the Honourable Member had not acted with his usual fairness,e Mr. HERBERT explained that he only alluded to his own union. Sir J. GRAHAM said, that looking at the circumstances which had been proclaimed on the official responsibility of the Government, he felt convinced that the grant which had been propoied w inevitable. —(llear, hear.) To the propositions of the Hon. Memb er f or S troud (Mr. 4 Scrope) he decidedly objected. He objected, in the first ._, sr i• .. *I.. - % place, to the grant being made in the shape of a e• . , 4,4 IN because he firmly believed that it would bL .. • gether impossible to reclaim the money, and woule4, , . , H1i1"- loading Ireland with additional burdens to th • i t' .L.:2-2—, --: ,„...,\c' she was now found quite incompetent to , !:, - ~1/ mjr-:,(,st, - , , '`--1:'!!---- - objected to the second proposition, that t, _V '., , , is -- ,0:.:,4 '-: • , should be be applied to works of reproductive 1 -- , tie., - i , ..-*v 4 k:f_i ,"",./,A1 d u e r s o : p it h u a ti d on ai w ied as th g ie.#l4o r -- and --- ik - l a sxja v cause ha found it on the records of th • ' atle-‘':'•'- - -- ,- - : - s men who had supplied the reports on w• h \ .tlie ' - __L -- _, - .--,/ the last two years. t, Government tiroream ediab greaterle aewerexndte extent that tithgathnt the e a pv t oet t na h t e oduring He gave her Majesty's Ministers credit for the sin. cerity of their assertions, ho believed that they were soundly informed, and the attempt to apply Bush a prin. ciple would be neither more nor less than a sentence of death against multitudes. Then, again, they had the experience of a place not very far from that of the disadvantage of national workships.—(Hear, hear,) For these reasons be Houseshould . decidedly while o p v p o o t s i n e g t f h o e r: t am e p n ro d p m o e s n it t io t u h o e f n th b e ef G o o re ve th ru e . ment, he must decidedly say that it was the last time he would vote for .any such grant.—(Cries of " Oh, oh," and "Hear, hear.") The very Lst time; for, as remedy was to be their rule, he thought the time was fully come when it was their imperative duty to review the whole system of th e l oca l taxat i on of Ireland. The last time he should % say, because he believed that Ireland, with her resources, was fully capable of supporting her own poor. When be recollected the different circumstances in which that country was placed, when be re membered that Ireland was free from any tax on property, that IrelaLd Noss free from any of the assessed taxes, that with a, perhays, too improvident readiness duties to the amount of 120,0001. a year had been remitted on spirits manufactured in Ire land, he did feel that if the poor -rate was insufficient a rate in aid was inevitable, and that that rate must be collected in Ireland.—(.gear, hear, and cheere.) For these reasons he should oppose t)ie amendment of the Hon. Member for Stroud, and vote for the grant proposed by her Majesty's Ministers. Mr. FAGAN supported the motion. It'e was surprised that any Member of the House of Commons should ob ject to the vote, which was so imperiously called for ; and he was especially surprised at the ,lourse that had been pursued by the Hon. Member for ilontrose. He felt convinced that the vote proposed would not be ade quate for the purposes intended, but he was glad to sot that Ministers were taking steps in the right direction. Mr. DISRAELI trusted that Ministers would not call Won the House this evening to give a vote upon this subject He trusted that the Noble Lord would rise in his place and appoint another day for the further discussion of this question, as sufficient time had not been given to consider it properly. He could not agree with the statement that had been made by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Dorsetshire, that this would be the last vote they would be called upon to give with reference to this subject.--(Hear, hear.) If the Government would state that this was the last vote that would be taken on the subject, he had no doubt that they would come to a satisfactory conclusion. The Chan cellor of the Exchequer had made his statements from manuscript, and that was a reason why further time should be given to consider the subject. iVhatever others might consider of this grant, it was his opinion that the question involved in it was, not only whether the people of England should pay their own poor-rates but th ose of the people of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted the Noble Lord at the head of the Government would appoint an early day for the further consideration of this important subject., Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the consideration that had been stated by the Honourable Gentleman the Member for Buckingham that the papers connected with this proposition had been only till very lately in the hands of Members, was a reason why the further consideration of this vote should be postponed.—(Hear, hear.) On the othor hand, he begged to state that, it had been considered by her Majesty's Government to be their duty to state to the House, as early as possible, what it was their intention to do on the importrnt subject.—( Hear, hear.) With regard to the subject itself he thought the Honourable Gentle man had hardly stated the question fairly to Ireland, when he stated that it was a question whether the people of England were to pay the poor-rates of Ireland as well as those of their own country. When the matter came on again, he should be prepared to state more in detail his opinions on the subject, but he could not say that this would be the last vote the House would be called upon to give on this sub ject.—(Hear, hear.) As a Minister of the Crown, he would not bind himself to any such assertion.—(Hear, hear.) Nor would he say th a t a compre h ensive measure had been prepared to obviate the necessity for applying to Parliament for any further grant being asked for.—(Hear, hear.) He !would keep himself free upon that; subject —(Hear, hear) because circumstances might occur that would render it imperative upon him to ask for further aid.--(Hear, hear.) This, however, he would say, that her Majesty's Government had considered what amendments should be made to the poor-law, and when the Committee met on the poor-law he should be prepared to state his views and opinions to that Committee.—(Hear.) He would not say that those opinions might not be modified by the suggestions of Hon. Members for Ireland, but when he knew the determination of the Committee, hs would propose to:the House what he thought necessary on the subject.—Hear, hear.) He considered this vote necessary, and he felt no doubt the House would sanction it.—(Hear.) He had no objection to (postpone the consideration of this question to Friday next, as he could appoint no other day at present to consider it.— (Hear, hear.) The debate was then adjourned to Friday. The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at Six o'clock. THB BUTLER DIVORCE CASE.—PHILADELPIIII, JAN. 22.—A decision has at length been given in the Butler divorce case, by the Judges of the Court of Common Pleas of the city and county of Philadelphia. The decree of the Court was delivered by Judge King, senior judge of the Court ;and that decision is in favour of ➢irs. Butler. The document read by the Judge is of great length, but the whole may be summed up in the following brief sentence :—The Court de crees that it will not give any final decision in relation to the divorce prayed by Pierce Butler against his wife, Frances Anne (Fanny Kemble) Butler; and that the matter sha and may be sent before a jury in the Court of Common Pleas, there to be tried, and final issue given. This decree has given evident satisfaction to the public of this city. Last week ten puncheons of whisky were shipped from a celebrated distillery in this neighbourhood for Cali fornia l— Tipperary Free Press. 1) try 32 4 tittOn SUN OFFICE, Seven o'Clock. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. (THIS DAY.) HOUSE OF COMMONS. Tha SPEAKER took the Chair at a few minutes after Twelve o'clock. On the motion of Mr. Wilson Patten, Mr. Evelyn Denison was added to the Committee on Standing Orders. EDUCATION. Mr. PLUNIPTRE presented a petition from Maid stone against grants in aid of Roman Catholic Schools. REGISTRATIONS OF BIRTHS, &sc. In answer to a question from Mr. MAHER, Sir W. SOMERVILLE stated that the Bill for the Registration of Births, Deaths, and Marriages in Ire land, was under the consideration of the Government, but he could not now undertake to say when it viould be brought forward. HEALTH OF TOWNS BILL (IRELAND) In reply to another question from the HoN. MEMBER, Sir W. SOMERVILLE slid it was the intention of the Government to introduce the Health of Towns (Ire land) Bill. INLAND REVENUE BILL. The second reading of Lois Bill was postponed. RELIEF OF DISTRESS (IRELAND). The House went into Committee upon this Bill. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in rising to move that a vote be granted in order to afford relief to destitute persons in the west of Ireland, said it would probably be in the recollection of Hon. Members that a similar vote was proposed at the close of last session, and that the Government gave answer that it did not then think it expedient to bring forward any measure on the subject. They did, however, request the House to entrust them with some small-discretion for the actual preservation of life in that country, and there appeared to be a general concurrence in favour of that course. In calling attention to what had been done during the recess, he said it would have been seen by the report of the British Association that, although a larger quantity of potatoes were planted last year, the failure of the crops was nearly as bad as in 1847, and of course it was necessary that further relief should be afforded. The British Associa tion having exhausted all the funds placed at their dis posal, applied to the Government for a grant, and, in compliance with that application, 3,0001. had been ad vanced by the Government. Having thus stated what had been done, the Right Hon. Gentleman alluded to the necessity which existed for further allowance being made towards the relief of certain portions of the western coast of Ireland. He regretted that the papers upon the table of the House did not give a greater amount of information, but they would be found to con taia sufficient to justify the vote he was about to propose. He considered that it would be much more advisable that relief should be afforded by the Treasury of the United Kingdom, and that the poor-law was the best machine through which that relief could be administered. It was necessary that the most stringent regulations should he adopted to carry out any plan of relief, and it seemed to him that the poor-law would meet the state of cir cumstances, which was owing to the failure of that food upon which so large a proportion of the population existed. The Honourable Gentleman then read selec- tions from documents, showing the amount of dis tress which existed in various portions of the country. By a list of those who were in arrear for highway rates, it appeared that out of twelve, there were only four on whose lands there were effects at all, the rest being en tirely waste. As an instance further of the state of the country, ho might say that out of the lands in one union, which altogether was assessed at 11,919/., the acreage on which 11,4921. was assessed, were altogether either given up to the landlords, or in the hands of tenants so destitute as to be utterly unable to pay any rates. I any Hon. Gentleman would only 1-:ok at the amount of rates collected, the expense incurred in collecting them, and the amount voted for the relief of the inhabitants, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was assured that he would see that it would be utterly impossible to avoid granting the relief which he had to propose.—(Hear.) lie had already stated that in the Ballina union the sum of 10,000/. had been expended, but that it was altogether inadequate to pay the expenses. The same was the csse in the Dublin union, and in several others beside. The amount received on the rates had nevertheless been on the in crease during the last three years. At the end of Sep tember, 1846, it came up to 371,0001., at the end of September, 1847, it reached 638,000/., and at the end of September, 1848, it was 1,127,000/. derived from the land. It was, therefore, manifestly evident that no ade quate sum could be collected for the relief of the poor from that source, and that it was impossible that the poor could be sustained unless the House came forward with that aid which was now imperatively required. He did propose, therefore, that in granting the supplies, they should vote a certain sum for this specific purpose; and he was happy to say that there were means by which the money could be given without any public inconvenience whatever. He had last year proposed the grant of a certain sum from the Consolidated Fund; that sum was 1,700,0004 Of that amount he was authorised to borrow 100,000/., but from the increased revenues of the country that had been unnecessary, and it still lay in the Exchequer. Further, he had found that.it was unnecessary to spend the whole of the sum entrusted to him for the relief of Ireland by the sum of 106,0001., which still, therefore, formed a portion of the Consolidated Fund. Thus there was a sum at present quite available and ready for this purpose. He had also ho satisfaction of saying that a sum of 78,0001. had been repaid for advances made during the previous year, which he thought might properly be applied, and might very fairly be applied, to the object of this grant. When laying his improved estimates before the House last year, he had stated that in his opinion the available in come of the country would be equal to its expenditure within the amount of 292,0001. From the agreeable fact to which he had just alluded, viz., the increased re• venue of the country, he had been very satisfactorily mistaken, and he was happy still more to say that from the estimates which had been prepared for the present year he had full reason to believe that the revenue of the country this year will be fully equal to its expendi ,ure.—(Cheers.) Taking all these circumstances into consideration, he was quite prepared to ask for a sum - comparatively small sum—from the Consolidated Fund, of 50,0001. fur the relief of Irish distress. This was, as he bud stated, a small sum, but with the recol lection of what had already transpired, he was not dis posed to give much at a time, and with the 184,000 L already on hand, he believed that would be sufficient at any rate for all present purposes.—(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Baronet then proposed that the sum of 50,0001. •hould be granted from the Consolidated Fund for the relief of the distress in Ireland.—(Cheers.) Mr. P. SCROPE was glad to see that the Govern ment were at last alive to the necessity of not only re. lieving the distress in Ireland, but also of seeing hat the money which was voted by the House should be judiciously expended. Ile had voted most readily or the Irish poor-law, but unfortunately that law had been accompanied by a wasteful mode of granting relief, ind of dispensing :large sums in the most extravagant manner. Some two or three years ago they had granted 8,000,0001. or 10,000,0001. for the relief of Ireland, and a great portion of that amount had been applied to public works, and nearly the whole of which had been almost entirely thrown away. Indeed, he had been assured by a gentleman who was a witness to the fact that upwards of 100/. had actually been paid to the peasantry for breaking a heap of stones, for which, in the ordinary payment for labour, would have cost only thirty shillings. By this and numerous other in stances which he could cite he was convinced that it would be worse than useless to grant further moneys tt iless they took a security on the land. If there was no stock on the property, then if the advance was nob re paid, let the land be sold to repay it. Next, he was unwilling to grant this money unless it was also to be used in the employment if productive labour; for unless it was so employed they were only increasing the evil which they desired to avoid. That there was ample opportunity to employ his labour profitably was evident from the fact that, in eight unions, which comprised no less than 2,220,000 Acres, there were only 221,000 acres, or less than one- Toth, under cultivation. Now, in those eight unions, during the year ending 29th September, 1848, there had been granted in relief 222,311/., of which only 44,1951. had been collected in the shape of rates, while a sum of more than 160,0001., more than four times the sum collected from the inha bitants, had been given by the Government almost, he might say, as a premium for idleness. The Right Hon. Gentlemen had spoken largely, and he believed justly, of the resources of Ireland; and he quite concurred in the view that that country, if rightly administered, was fully competent to sustain all its own poor. But under the plan which they had now been adopting they were doing nothing more than rendering the work.. houses of Ireland like the national workshops of Paris, injurious alike to the artizan and to the country. They were, in fact, giving a premium for throwing lands out of cultivation, and rendering labour unproductive. The deaths in the workhouses amounted to one. fourth of the actual inmates, and in the course of the year in these establishments the amount of mortality was very great. It had been admitted by the Right Honourable Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) that Ireland was in an abnormal state, and he would ask why the Government hesitated to apply an abnormal remedy ? Having apologised for detaining the House so long, the Hon. Member con • eluded by proposing the following amendment as an ad dition to the resolution:—" That no appropr . iation of moneys taken from general taxation be in future applied in aid of the poor- rate of Irish unions, except on con dition; 1. That its repayment be secured by a lien on the rateable property of the union; 2. That it be ex pended, as far as it is practicable, in the productive em ployment of the able-bodied poor." Mr. CHRISTOPHER said, as an English representative, he was not prepared to concur in the vote. When he consi dered the very short period that had elapsed since this coun try granted eight millions of money for the relief of the Irish people, a very small past of which had been repaid, and of which he predicted a very small portion would return to:the Treasury—and when he saw that our:workhouses were being rapidly filled with able-bodied paupers, he prot ested against the House being annually called upon to sanction votes of this character. In the south of England the condi tion of the poor was as miserable as it was in any part of ireland, and he would ask, was it right or fair that the over-taxed people of England s.hould taken to make a further grant, more especially it Ito consideration that in Ireland there walisennoitinwcaosme-tax a rid no assessed taxes ? dthe House would amendment than the orignnael w m e o u tio d n ; rwa b th u e t r b s e up p p r e o r t t es t t h ed e gainst the vote altogether, andhethterufrtiesh people ought to ow lay down the principle that (flear, hear.) m aintain their own poor.—(Sear , . • , 44c. F. Luna po t w itimilugung the btropg lAn. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 6. IRELAND.—SUSPENSION OF THE HABEAS CORPUS ACT. - --- Sir GEORGE GREY said he rose, in pursuanee of the notice he had given on the first night of the session, to mk for leave to bring in a Bill for the continuance, for a limited period, of tie Act of last session for the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act in Ireland. Her Majesty's Government would gladly have dispensed with such a motion if they felt they could have done so consistently with their duty, and that the time had arrived when they felt that the ordi nary powers of the law, with which the Government had in ordinary times been entrusted, would have been sufficient to enable the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland adequately to discharge those responsible duties which attached to his office. The Government were deeply sensible of the gravity of the proposal which he (Sir G. Grey) had now to make to the House. They wer e no t insensible to those serious objections which might, and ought to be entertained, with respect to a temporary suspension of the constitutional rights of the people of ibis realm—(Hear, hear)—but they felt at the same time that there might be exceptional cases in which those objections could not obtain, and that there might be a conviction—and a conviction entertained by the best statesmen of the best times—that there were circumstances in which the very spirit of our Constitution demanded a temporary and partial suspension of those rights, in order to enable the Government to maintain the constitution itself, and to defend it against the assaults of those men who might be seeking its overthrow. It is one of those oc casions which was held to justify the appeal which her Majesty's Government made in July last for the Habeas Corpus Act in Ireland, to which appeal Parliament cor dially responded, thereby giving moral effect to that measure, without which it must have been compa ratively useless. But it was with a deep sense of the responsibility attaching to thole to whom the adminis tration of affairs in Ireland was confided, that the Government had felt it impossible, consistently with their duty, to recommend to Parliament. that these extraordinary powers should cease. In stating the grounds on which the Government had arrived at that conclusion, and on which be should ask Parliament to assent to their proposal, he at oar , . admitted that the circumstances under which he . In_ made this proposal as respected Ireland were wide l y different from • those under which the C_ie - " of this the rembetythesctthi asked to carry out the temporary misPe"tio°nstate that Act in July last. He was not there sow in place in Ireland, and that there . wer _ p arties un_ d. They any recent insurrection—immediately rneceownt— arms against their Sovereign p 2 Ire in, July last had been told the insurrecnonaad that the was a mock insurrection,ve had taken Grnment to suppress measures taken by the thet i h n ec" 4 s i p r ar el it aT o d f o v f alu th ab e le su e cc ons ess tab o u f la th ry e n a ti a st te on y It might have been a ° W ea r, hear)—he did not pretend those who got it up--( part movementece nhitnanaenthatloyalty country, for it would t eo o anr to state that in any _ it were unnecessarily cli,iizorifienteohLetiveeol there was of the people of that have been an d by the country, e force in Ireland.—(Hear , hear.) Although success might have attended the combined loyalty of the sub jects o f her Majesty in Ireland, and the soldiery , an d the constabulary force there, it was frightful to think of put down the horrors through which the inhabitants of that country might have passed before that insurrection was entirely suppressed ; and he must say that the reproach which rather attached to the Government in July last was that they had.been tardy in coming to that House to ask for those extraordinory powers was to some extent merited. The House could not have forgotten - the exhibition of violent and threatening language which occurred in the papers for many months- 1 -4y after day coming from persons in Ireland inciting the peo ple to take up arms against their Sovereign, and endea vouring to seduce her troops and the constabulary force from their allegiance, nor the details which appeared in those papers, showing how the people might defeat and de stroy those soldiers; and that constabulary force, in the execution of their duty. It was not right to treat that insurrection as a contemptible affair because it had failed. In June and July last he could not enter that House without gentlemen putting into his hands letters from persons in that corm- . cry, detailing the extremities to which the ineurree: tionary spirit was carried, and how, in some cases, gen their tlemen had had the lead t orn off the roofs ()f bels. houses, to be fused i n t o b u ll e ts for the rebel s. nose were the circumst ances under which the Govern ment. .eased had comp to Parliament last July fo r powers, and those circu ms t anc es have been proved to have ~ x isted by every day's ex p er i en ce since. He really felt he idle House by refer.. should be almost wasting the time 0- the n d ~ 000UX70 , mit ring further to the circumstances tha t ... 19 felt bused CO au there was one , or two doeliPe° -