The Sun. — London, England, 1855-03-17 00:00:00

I ERIAL PARLIAAIE R OUSE OF OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.) Ile it ROYAL ASSENT. lik„, oyal Assent was given by commission to the C° bilk viz.:— the Exchequer Bills (17,183,000 e); Mu -1 raen Law Procedure (Ireland) 'Bill ; The 1e,, e _ 8 ,, the Marine Mutiny Bill ; Tea Duties Decline . IQ lon 13111 ; the Secretaries and Under-Secretaries e till. lere sl4 rds' Commissioners Were the Lord Chancellor, Th e i t r re.7 of Alderl e y, an d L or d M on t eag l e . l'I ) L ° r(ithips the n a dj ourne d d ur i ng p l easure. 4Le"()RD CRANCELLOR took his seat oo the wool lr,i "" o'clock. 4ottiii LisriAFTESBURY presented petitions from hlei e rm and other places, praying for the closing of L ori ouses during the whole of the Sabbath. kfte n IrtIONTEIGLE moved for a continuance of the he ti °' Penny e armee issued to the different newspa keP to the sth of Jannary, 1355.—Agreed to. ~.i ° l l o, 4 1 , ef ALBEMARLE presented a petition i'llith .4 '°l, Praying that the war might be prosecuted e utmost vigour. Tab rir, ORSES SHIPPPED TO THE EAST. !krib e 44ll of ALBEMARLE moved for a return of the il',. ° lhorses s hi ppe d t o t h e seat o f war b y her Ma ", '' G overnm en t in sailing or steam transports, for kttltPorposes, during the year 1854 ; the amount of e„„,, a g,e of, and the number of horses conveyed in, le, 4 7e" ; the number of horses that died on the pas -114"" were rendered unserviceable in each vessel ; `tabl i tll:, av erage expense of the conveyance of each horse. e lord stated that his object in bringing forward 'it t o l e °t was, if possible, to persuade the Minister of desist from the present method of shipping end, at least, to give a trial to the plan adopted ! 4 Re contend e d th a t th e s y s t em o f s hi pp i ng .Present pursued by the Government was the that could be by any possibility adopted. The 't , isuffered immensely from the cruelty ; it 7 . f '"as to the country, and utterly unneces .the services required. The difference be the Bail system pursued by the G overnmen t an d was in two points--the one was that the cavalry " 14.0 only allowed a width clear, while the horses a t g u ll were a ll owe d 3 or 4 feet. It might be that by g i v i ng d ou bl e t h e space to eac h h orse ti4'"ld be a double expense. He thought. he would ~ show satisfactorily to their lordships that the 11,13dending the Hell system would be one-third less 11ye _ ev ernment. The other point of difference was lib i javalry horses were never allowed to lie down. serenot what the length of the voyage was, the '!.ere never allowed a moment off their leis. In 'se n a - the e x p enses o f th e sys t em followed Go iie,,,t, there ' was, first of all, a platform to ' - l e ,d, upon which the horses were to stand, " 4 . ,1eb were raised pillars, posts, and each horse found itself wedged in Th e rails so t ig htly th a t it was h ar dl y a bl e to 14;h.'''he Government were also put to great expense T''ehase o f s h eeps ki ns an d ot h er contr i vances to 1 4,' horses f rom b e i ng c h a f e d by f r i c ti on . Wh en c a idered how many horses died on the pas sage et h ethe treatment they had received, ha thought ;7 1 of itself was a fact gr e atly i n f avour of a; qatena. The noble earl then referred to the Cthe system under which a greater space was t o :horses on board, and accommodation afforded 11 14 13 ', ing don and eeded to show that, takin q,ii I nto cons w ideration, pr oc there would positively be g a te d t he Gov e r nmen t an d th e coun t r y o f more th an h t ,,.er the expense that they were subject to under t t e _gt system. The noble earl then concluded by sa the best places for embarking ho:ses were 1 ' and Plymouth, as none of the difficulties he ett, there existed. ;5,,,,t1 of LUCAN agreed with the noble earl that !ite e ßbould b e conve y e d as f ar as p oss ibl e b y l an d. r i rrfectly ignorant of what was called the Hull Isi rl d until the l as t f ew d a y s h e h a d never h ear d it,;' , agreed w ith th e no bl e ear l th a t every horse Oeilit,to the power of lying down. H e also agreed „, t hat the re was a grea t l oss sustained by the I .. 4 gest in the number of horses which they con lie,l'reportion to the t onnage o f th e vesse l s ; f or P r oportion Was considerably above 10 tons for a ho r s e , S i tte r i ble earl stated to be the average in the telit; no but th e no bl e ear l had argued as if it was 4 4 °lv . of the Government to ship all the horses 0 th, l4 ,, li ing vessels ; he hoped it was nut the case ; 1tN1,, - "_,Zht that the experience of the last twelve t l ltti;gu thesmall number of losses which had arisen Oro it,itaecessive voyages made by the steam yes ilt..s4l7:llhow the greaCnecessity of employing steam C'elh" n i tt lie did not know of a single case in which I ik I Ito el had lost a large number of horses. , ii. f et th r?( ISI memory only, but he believed it to be 1 1 7; th,,,,,,t the Simla did not lose more than five ,e' c lt e ,.," "litnalaya, which carried above 400 horses, t7o, -'•;:. ; the Jason, out of 237 horses, lost only 6 ,ee ,'",, believed th ' at nothing could be more per ivl4o taking up, by the Government, of the emot ", P . Thug within the last 12 months, they ni:ll4Y carried 'the British cavalry, but the rench 1 .1e. 8 . °, Ylgether with a large number of transport 4q o ", a if they took the average that had been 1 1 4 1 k1 be found that it was not one per cent. well 1 11 1 14 , '' at where a system had worked so i 4i ve ry hazardous to adopt a new system which hi d Cot understand. I N :A_ N . MIJRE said that, if the only question at k ) , " to the comparative merits of steam and easel s as transports, he entirely concurred in 4"' of the noble earl who spoke last. There et no doubt that if steam vessels were at their 1, with capacity b e t ween decks, the length of pk el ge would be muc h s h ortened, and the suffering (thorses would be much less than in sailing vessels, it fittings and accommodation would be much co mplete. B u t th e noble earl seemed to think it'as transports, of which the Government availed c ould, at its own control, command steam vessels ttl e l / 4 ' 4 Pose of conveyi n g th e h orses . H e w i s h e d k b % ‘ l. O disabuse the mind the noble earl, and that %.i.Z`' l le, as to the number of steam-vessels at the S k i' of the Government. The Government took rtif the as they could, having reference to the na ,tol4lue service they were called upon to perform ; A:M e ting the vast number of horses which had L 'ae ci : Which would still have to be, conveyed from ‘te 4 t rY ter the seat of war, some sailing vessels s eeessit be employed. The question was whe -414.4 Which Y 4 he had been called the H oy t e adopted, or that system which had been car- M altader the auspices and directions of the best ti7.,, e ' es, should be continued. He understood t e r of the " Hull system" was to take a vessel Ot till u° tons, and strip her altogether 'tween decks 1 to stern. She was then fitted up with refe -4,441)' te * I L e kt d of the bat ehvourrsetsottobbee numberput on W ithout% we,retu an n y e r e e u g m a i r )an w y • them. Those horses, mood, were shipped as a matter of traffic i ' .., ep t 'tattlers at home and purchasers abroad ; ti t it '°re than four or five men accom ,de eta 100 horses. He understood the room It 1 4 4 'erses by the Hull system was 4,_i feet, ~ „the Government system it vas only lt, t ' k e t l L .,'lsat it was clear the Government system - "b it of more horses being shipped than the Hull l!ilt h, 7 the Government system horses could never i N;b'eX t t/ by the Hull system, the moment bad \M tl l - 'n the horses rolled about. He was in ,,ttllthe Clement the storm was passed, and the mo- V.to t : y essel became less inconvenient to horses, Yiti,Y few days they experienced far greater relief ~- , .,, i 4 0,„e l were enabled to lie down. He had a return 'IL tl l i" , Which stated that year the total number of it,l 4 t t "P u l 3 cd was 3,100 in sailing vessels and steamers. V4i h ''' 2 Were lost, being about 3i per cent.. of the lei in steamers, and of those in sailing trans- I t 4 sing an average of 3 4-sths per cent. The 1 . 4 4 .' 1 ,3th of the passage of steamers was 16 days— g:ttie,l'lrlie vessels 39 days. This clearly showed that 11,4 -4 4 of carrying by steam-vessels was far to be e e , ; ''''',,that of sailing' vessels ; but when steam , ti. m.. - "la not be obtained, and sailing vessels could 11 :P l ec:,' 11. se to, he maintaied that, according to the kZ 4 41" ) , - ' 11 ; by the return he had read, he thought NI h "° reason to find fault with a system by which 1 4_4 e : s e ett enabled to carry horses a distance of 3,000 iy4 kLarnall a loss as 3i per cent. hid fi lt - ;' of LUCAN again rose and said he believed f,,, 44 Y horses were 14 days or three weeks at sea, ilk;4,l r ,Z irlipeseible to work them again for a Form :l6 „" e • He had known a great many cases in the VA Ll , e ti 3 in which the horses suffered from fever in k l ' ti Ztl" l lEt ' ,ef two detachments sent after Lord CardBio - in the Dobrudscha—of that party, 11/4Vei i ,i 3 Royal Dragoons, and 12 of the 11th, never ili.. th zr ° lll the effects of fever . in the feet. He 1 1 , 1 7 t ef , a Government had a sufficient steam power ef44"eltnand, if they had made proper use of it. If ti 4 i ll tti seat to Balaklava harbour, he would under 144eY that they would find steam-vessels that ad Itit. a very large force of cavalry at Constant'. N b ier the next six weeks. Why could not the t titt l il cut bring home the Jason, the Simla, the 1/4\l/4 ti;' a e3r were of no use at Balaklava ; nobody \t tr e,,, e ,ail there. He did not think the Government It - " 4O W those vessels to remain idle in Balaklava I \l l % tii, /i i , i, iV i ke j ° of CAMBRIDGE—I entirely agree with Neto e ltd (Lord Lucari) as to the disadvantage of %Nl' carrying horses by sailing transports, but ILNti ),"eIP thinking that some arrangement might - 7 1 1 t 0 Which some of those large steamers might '.'ts t ," earry those horses, and I think a little ar -I,Ytii,„t would enable us to carry them with more LL lit '''' sailing vessels. The Himalaya was only a i k4 Nt ,,,i,.. °/). the voyage, and at an average of 39 l ie t i: - 'tight make two or three trips in that 1 6, 4 ty ~ therefore, do hope you will permit me Al t , to ° empress upon my noble friend the a lvan a k tt i ue derived by a regular course of steamers. 't,'',4,, ht e , , ,, lies the whole difficulty. (Hear.) I think 1 1 : 1 '1 41 °114,,, " have one steamer every fortnight to teary Oli o ; With reference to what fell from my noble 'de g , :,(Leril Panmure), as to the horses sent out Ili • - ,!,"Ps last year, I happened to he Inspector tt4M j _ d evalry at that time ; I inepected those . ,t-es ii. r y1 1 ...,,,Qad the advantage of having an interview Lt S l leod:° o dwin. I never saw the Hull system, but TM 0 1 explained to me that by that system the t ti,'ltil ei , teen cleared so, that thus room was found for ~, t a 4t lely, i'„ c lie down. Now, I beg to submit that it is ,1 1 :14 - ea u onvenient at sea that a large space should 1 44 " il 'ett e I.o u must carry dragoons and all their i`it, -; theref • h e' I don , t wi=b to give an 011 44, 4 e 0 . me ; t " -n .ei ee ie.- ieti;. I. do p t.:‘ , 44 . 0 . , • - ..,,, !. .n• . -_ . . .-, 11 114 , 1. .tl ' ar',, ..', i, ' '',' i !,! , y . ' ,' ,' !, .10t wel l k; W ere 'k' -,„,=. ..-• tIl ~- t • .1 ;11:;,.: • . if, , , they i l eeat 4 ," well fitted as any ships could he. There lilip e i 'ellee between battens and ehingles in '• and I must say I prefer the shingles ; but i , ;orre t out; • been l er 26 ' heigh j , i ‘ ovr -Iprf . - A. o DA' as sn a et, o of • bt es tbe7, tack', ta tee ti°ll Quote' tb ° 0 35 tio" ,r r fter 11 0 cor' THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 17, 185:i perhaps after a few months, the war will have ceased, and peace will have re t urne d ; but unless this house will con sent to address itself seriously to the present state of our pub lic education, we should still find ourselves surrounded by that mass of ignorance and crime which is now tarnishing' our national reputation, and, as I believe, sepping and un derruiningournational welfare and our national prosperity. I believe there is no question to which Pal liement is more bound to address itself, and I think that, if the house will favour me with their attention, I shall be able to prove this evening that there is no question to which we as a Legis lature ought to devote more anxious consideration. lam happy to say that, even from the events of this war, wo may draw some strong arguments in favour of education. (Hear, hear.) If there still are any persons who doubt the necessity of education, and who believe that to raise the people of this country as human beings, to teach them their duty towards God and man, is to unfit theirs for social duties and industrial pursuits—if there still are persons who linger in that belief I think I rosy only refer them to the positi on o f t h e British soldier as a satisfactory answer. (Hear, hear.) Ido not believe that any class of men were ever more rapidly raised in their morel and intellectual condition than our soldiers have been during the last forty years. ( ear, hear.) The Duke of Cambridge, in the course of his striking and able evidence—(Order, order.) Sir, I really forgot, but I will put itin another way. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) I may say, then, I heard from his Royal Highness that even in his comparatively short expe rience, short as compared with forty yearn, the progress of our soldiers in general education has been extraordinary, almost incredible. What has beenthe result ? Sir, I think I may appeal to the results of the last few months, to many of those letters which we all have road in the public press, and then confidently assert that never at any period did our soldiery prove themselves more worthy than during those extraordinary combinations of victory and disaster. (Hear, hear.) I confess, sir, I approach this subject with a deep sense, not only of its importance, but also of its difficulty. I feel, in bringing it before the house, and proposing legislation on the subject, it is due to the house that I should give some explanations of my rea sons and motives to vindicate myself from any charge of presumption. I have been influenced in this course be cause it has appeared to me that the late Government of my Lord Aberdeen had been either deterred by the difficulties of the subject, or else abandoned all idea of legislating upon it. Shortly after the formation of that ministry, I well remember that education was put in the very van of the professions made by the Government-- (hear, hear)—and very shortly after the noble lord the member for the City of London introduced a measure on the subject. That bill I will not venture to discuss at the present moment, but will venture to say there was agreat deal iu it that I was disposed to support, and which ap peared to me to be well worthy of consideration and dis cussion by this house—(hear, hear) —but, unfortunately, it never progressed to a second reading. (Hear, hear.) Well, sir, what occurred last year, in the session of 1554? That plan, the m os t i m p or t an t f nil educational plans, in my opinion, known as the Manchester and Salford Bill, was brought under the consideration of the house. That bill was the emanation of great patience, greet labour, expe rience, and the com bi na ti on o f men of all religious deno minations ; yet how was the measure treated ? It was re jected and thrown out on the petty quibble as to whether, according to our forms, it was a public or a private bill. (Loud cries of hear, hear.) Sir, I must also observe, that during the discus s i on on th a t bill th e T reasury b enc h was absolutely unoccupied ; and the Government having sub sequently given no sign, it appeared to me as if the whole matter of education hail been dropped. (Hear, hoar.) It was, therefore, under these circumstanced, and feeling that a subject of such importance should be dealt with by Parliament, that, at the close of the last session, I de termined I would make this single attempt on the subject. and I accordingly gave notice of this bill. In the ses sion before Christmas I put my notice on the paper for the 25th of January, and, shortly after, the noble lord the member for the City of London gave notice of his intention to introduce a bill, on , the 23d of January, two days previously, which bill has been introduced and laid on the table. I will not say that I know not whether but fur my - ootice this noble lord would have introduced the bill. (Hear, and a laugh.) I felt, however, I would not be just l e d i n w i t hh o l d i ng my notic e —(hear)—but I can didly say it is in no spirit of rivalry I come forward. I recoguise the exertions of the noble lord during many years iu the cause of education ; and had he intimated, at the close of last session, his intention to deal with the sub- ' ject, I never would have presumed to interfere in the mat ter, but would leave it altogether in the bands of the noble lord. (Hear.) Now that we have embarked in the question, I hope, with the assistance of the noble lord and this house, that we shall arrive at a satisfactory conclusion. (Hear.) There is one portion of this subject of the greatest possible importance, and to which I am very desirous to call the attention of this house, and more particularly that of her Majesty's Government, because it is not embraced either in the bill of the noble lord the member for the City of London or in that which I am desirous of introducing —I allude to the present constitution and action of the Com mittee of the Privy Council. Sir, lam greatiy dissatisfied both with the constitution and the working of that commit tee. In the first place, I think the committee has become far too important and intrusted with functions of far too great magnitude to continue longer without being recog nised as a department of the state, and consequently re presented in this house. (Hear.) My objection to the action of the committee is this, that whilst Parliament liberally votes sums of money for public instruction, Iven ture to say that, by the present action, these sums are alto gether misapplied. (Hear.) Ido not at all deny that they have effected much good ; but I do contend the sums are badly administered and misapplied ; and that the liberality of Parliament produces the minimum, instead of the maxi mum, of public good. (Hear.) We have increased th ese grants, and risen from the sum of 10,0001. or 20,000/., which used to be the amount voted in the time of the ad ministration of Lord Grey, until we have reached, as in the case of last year, the sum of 300,000/. Now, is there any case in which Parliament votes 300,000/. without having a responsible minister to account for its expenditure? (Hear.) There was a parallel case—the case of the Poor-law Board. After the institution of that board gentlemen of great ex perience and ability were appointed commissioners. Much dissatisfaction followed, and before many years the board had ho reorzanised as a public department, and canoe fine.n tly represented in this house. (Flear.) Why alio tad not education have a recognised department ? (Hear.) The time is gone by when these important matters can be dealt with in a half-and-half way; and the time has come when Par liament has a right to see a minister in this house respon sible for the expenditure of this money, and liable to be called upon for explanation at any moment. There is no other country which does not recognise the importance of a Minister of Public Instruction—France, the cantons of Switzerland, America. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, with these precedents abroad I will proceed to establish the necessity for such an officer at home. (Hear.) The first point I will take is one of paramount importance--I mean the providing of efficient masters. (Hear.) The Commit tee of the Privy Council have not discharged their duty on that point with either wisdom or success. (Hear.) I hold in my hand the opinions of several inspectors of education, all complaining of the want of better provision for masters. The fact is, our masters are so overtrained that when the time comes for their educational duties they are far above them, and consequently they take to other pursuits. Mr. Kennedy informs me in a letter that many of them betake themselves to holy orders; and therefore I think there is strong ground for inquiry by this house on that point amongst others. I believe it will be found that not above two-thirds of those trained for masters actually take to that occupation. So that we are devoting grants of the public money to the bringing np of parties much to their own advantage, but not all to the advantage of the pub lic. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Therefore I say the pub lic money is misapplied, and in more ways than one, for the grants are made rather to wealthier districts than to the poorer which require them. The minute under which the grant is made requires that two-thirds of the sum shall be made up by the locality; therefore, I believe, the poorer districts get nothing at all. Now, sir, I will proceed to show this by contrasting four of the poorer parishes with four of the wealthier of this metropolis. The parish of Clerkenwell, with a population of 74,763 souls, gets 81. 17s. 4,1. for books ; the parish of St. Giles, with 37,000 inhabitants, gets 31. 13s. 41. ; the parish of Shoreditch, with 25,000 souls,' receives nothing ; and the parish of Shad well, with 11,700 souls, gets nothing. Now, the wealthier parishes are these—St. Martin's, Lei cester-square, with 8,50 souls, gets 4651. ; St. Barnabas, with 3,000 inhabitants, 4101. ; Kea rish-town, with 5,003 inhabitants, 8461. and Kensington, with 30,000 souls, 2,1971. So that 145,500 persons receive 12/. Os. 8 ri., whilst 46,000 persons get no less than 3,9031. I ask is that the g th in e one yp y o e l i t c thata v• h i i c s h h ought eres to l o t i o n f fl t i h re e n m c t n h u i t s e h u o n u i s th e r i n w r i t e i h n com mittee of the Privy Council is now acting. This, I say, would be immediately corrected if we had a proper minister for the department, and one who would be responsible for the expeneiture of the money voted by this house. I will i n n o now, ,isicro, country which d w t i o li c c a h ll l a r t eg ten re ti t o t n o t s o ay th i e s s v t e a i t y e o li f tt e l d e u u e n at d i e o r n . stood. It may be said, " The question ought to be left where it is, we are getting on very well." Sir, I regret to say I shall be able to show that we are getting on quite scandal ously ; and I shall place some facts before the house of a startling character, making, at the same time, no state ment without clue authority. When the noble lord the member for the City of London brought forward the subject of education in 1853 he fell, and not unnaturally, into the error of taking far too flattering a view of the state of the question. But the noble lord, whilst adverting to the improvements that had taken place, never at all touched upon the deficiencies of our system. (Hear.) The statistics of the periods 1818,1833, and 1851. were very well known. It was ascertained that in 1818 there was only 1 in 17 of the inhabitants of this country at school; in 1833 there was 1 in 11 ; and in 1851 the proportion had increased to lin 8 of the population. Now this appears to be a great advance and improvement. (Hear.) But if you analyse the figures, and keep before you the dates, you will find that the advance between 1833 and 1851 is by no means of equal ratio with that occurring between 1818 and 1833. My own belief is that in many important districts of this country our condition in the period from 1833 to 1851 was worse than in the period from 1818 to 1833. York and Liverpool may be mentioned ; for in 1833 in Liverpool 1 in 7 and a fraction were at school, whilst in 1831 there was only 1 in 8 and a fraction at school in the same town. (Hear.) I will now proceed to call attention to the quality of the education, and inquire if those who go to school are properly taught. On this head four views of the question present themselves before me; first, the number of those who are without education; secondly, the quality of the education which they receive ; thirdly, our comparative state with regard to the rest of the world ; and, fourthly, the deplorable results of the neglect of this question. Mr. Horace Mann, in his able report on the census of 1851, sets clown the population of tnis kingdom at what I shall take to be 15,000,000. The number of childreh between 3 and 15 years he estimates at nearly 5,000,000. I find that of these only 2,144,000 children were at school. Therefore there remained nearly 3,000,000 of children without education. Mr. Horace Mann made a deduction of 1,000,000 for chil dren at work. Now I demur to this deduction being made at all ; for I say that in any country where education is conducted on a sound basis children should not be allowed to work until they were educated. (Hear.) But I find by the statistics of the census that only 600,000 children are employed. The rep art of Mr. Horace Mann showed that of the children between the ages of 5 and 12 years, there should be 3,03 0 , 000 at school, and yet we find only two thirds of that number in reality receiving education. I now come to inquire why these children are not at school. A common idoaprevails that they are at work. I believe that to bo a mistake. (Hear.) In Manchester there were 69,500 children between the ages of 3 and 14, of whom only 32,000 wore at school, 7,000 at work, and 30,000 neither at school nor at work. The general result was, as to the whole coun try, that 41 per cent. were sent to school, 12 per cent. were at work, and 46 per cant. were neither at school nor at work. Therefore, the children being at work could not be the (sense of the ereet deficiency in their education. The —• I that, if not so, they were not led to attach much value to the education afforded, which, was so bad that they cared not to let their children partake of 'it. Thii was the moat important part of the case—that those children who were sent to school did not receive the proper benefits of education. And here he turned, with feelings of humilia hien, to the comperison between the state of education in this country and in the rest of the civilised world. He grieved to say that, with the exception of Russia, Spain, Italy, and the slave states in America, England was at the bottom of the scale. In Switzerland there were, in many of the cantons, 1 in 5 at school; in Saxony, also lin 5 ; in the free states of America, 1 in 5 ; in France, 1 in 6 ; in Wurtemberg, 1 in 6 ; in Prus s i a , 1 i n 6 ; in Denmark, 1 in 7 ; and in England, lin n. But there was a still greater contrast in the nature of the systems pursued in these different ,countries. In Prussia the course of instruction in every elementary school comprised-1, religion ; 2, the German language ; 3,4, 5, the elements of physicial and natural sciences, geography, arithmetic, &c.; 6, singing ; 7 writing ; 8 manual labour, and especially instruction in agriculture. And religion, reading and writing, arith nietic and singing, were declared " indispensable." In Switzerland the course of instruction was-1, religion; 2, reeding ; 3, writing ; 4, linear drawing ; 5, geogra• phy ;6, arithmetic; 7, singing, • 8, elements of geo logy ; 9, history of . Switzerland; 10, elements of na tural philosophy ; 11, the " Rights and Duties of a Citizea." In Denmark few children were unable to read and write. A code of general regulations had been in operation since 1817, and the condition of education made constant progress. Parochial schools were everywhere established. Attendance at them. was not optional. for by a late law all children between the ages of 7 and 19 must be sent to public schools; and if their parents were unable to pay the children were educated at the pub lic expense. So in Prussia. The course of instruction in Denmark and Prussia included, besides religion and read ing and writing, arithmetic, geography, and natural his tory. In France, under the system established by M. Guizot, 1831, elementary schools were everywhere estab lished, in which the course of instruction was-1, moral and religious; 2, reading; 3, writing ; 4, arithmetic; 5, French ' • 6, weights and mee sures ; 7 , geog r a phy ; 8, his tory; 9, linear drawing; 10, singing. Every school was divided into classes, according to the capacity of the pupils, certain portions of Scripture were committed to memory, and every Saturday the Gospel for the ensuing Sunday was read by the pupils. In Germany, including most of the states in Austria, Wurtemberg, Hesse, Bavaria, &c., regu lations were established, requiring that every poor child be sent to school. In Hesse, for instance, public function aries every six months saw that all the children above six years of age were sent to some of the public schools ; and if the parents wore unable to pay the fees they were paid out of the public funds. In Holland no child of ten years of age could be uninstructed. And in the United States he need scarcely say how generally education was disseminated. (Hear, hear.) How different was the uses in England. According to Mr. Horace Mann, there were 45,000 scheols in England, in which reading was taught in 93 per cent., writing in 68 per cent., arithmetic in 61 per cent., grammar in 44 per cent., geography in 39 per cent., music in 10 per cent., industrial occupations —one of the primary objects of popular schools —(hear)—only 2 leer cent. (Hear.) Such was the gene ral character of our education. What was the condition of the Church schools, according to the reports of the Na tional Society ? Of the Church schools 30 per cent. wore not secured for educational purposes, 47per cent. were not even virtually secured • and so about 50 per cent. were dame :schools, or in cottages, corners of churches, &c. And . what was th e con diti o n o f the schools not b e l ong i ng t ee the Church ? Mr. Horace Mann stated that, upon a rough attempt at classifying them according to their efficieney, only 20 per cent. of the whole could be called " superior"l4o. about 5,003 in number. There were 7,000 only "Arid'. dling," 13,e00 "inferior." But the most startling laete was, that out of these last about 890 of the schoolome*se or schoolmistresses were unable to write, and signed their. returns with marks. (Hear, hear.) So that in 800 of our schools the masters and mistresses were unable to write their own names. (Hear, hear.) Thus then it appeared that not only was the proportion of our poor children educated much smaller then in most of the coun tries of Europe, but the species of instruction afforded in our schools was most inferior, and quits discreditable, as compared with that in foreign countries. (Hear.) What was the deplorable result of this fearful deficiency in education ? Need ho trace the connection between ignorance and crime? (Hear.) Statistical information upon that subject it was difficult to obtain; there were indeed complete returns of convictions at sessions and assizes, but not of summary con victions. The only foreign country whose returns of crime were complete, and with whom we could institute a com parison, was Austria. In 1840 the population of England was 17,000,0000, and the total number of convictions was 60,809. In Austria the population was 23,600,000, and the detected crimes amounted to 30,000. Thus, then, while the population of Austria was six millions and a half more than ours, the detected crimes in England doubled those of Austria. In other words, the crimes in England were as three to one compared with Austria. Now, Austria was a very well .educated country, and it was curious that the number of detected crimes appeared greatest in her mining districts which were least educated. Let them now look at the state of some districts in England. And first as to the metropolis. Take four populous parishes north of the Thames, and four south of the Thames. In Stepney, St. George's-in-the-East, Bethnal-green, and Shoreditch, there were 358,600 persons, and 44,800 children, of whom only 19,000 were at school. In Southwark, Bermondsey, St. George's, and Newington, there were 304,000 persons (making, with the four parishes first mentioned, a total population of more than 660,000), and about 56,000 chil dren, of whom about 36,000 were without education. There could be, alas ! no difficulty in divining the condition of these poor children. (Hear.) The report of the inspector of schools for the westerndistriet stated that in Devonshire, Cornwall, D - orsetshir e , and Hampshire, there were thou sands of poor children who were not acquainted with the Lord's Prayer, and hardly knew that there was a God in heaven ! (Hear.) This, he stated, was the rule and not the exception amongst the children of those who were in the habit of receiving parochial relief ; they were in a state of the most heathenish ignorance. In Newcastle there was a population of 87,000, including 18,403 children, and of there the ieepe.tvi of eohuulo staged Lhat, 11,400 were unaccounted for as regarded education, only 7,000 children attending schools. The same state of things existed at Gateshead, Hartlepool, Sunderland, and Shields. So in the eastern counties. Mr. Mitchell, the inspector, had lately ascertained from the colonels of seven regiments of militia lately embodied the state of the men as regarded education—the Cambridgeshire regiment, the North and South Essex regiments, the Ilmingdon, the East and West Norfolk, and the East and West Suffolk regiments. There were 5,600 men, of whom only 2,003 could write their names. (Hear.) The chaplain of the gaol atWorcester stated that out of 1,100 prisoners4so were totally ignorant; and he added that a" woeful amount of gross ignorance on moral and religious subjects existed among the great ma jority of cases brought under his notice." The excellent chaplain of Preston gaol (the Rev. Mr. Clay) stated that in three years the performance of his duties had brought him into contact with 1,700 men and boys, and 387 womenand girls, altogether unable to read; and 1,300 men and boys, and 280 women and girls, who did not know the name of the reigning Sovereign • and 1,290 men an d boys, and 290 women and girls, who Aid not know the meaning of such gentleman stated that there were a b ou t 2 , 000 pers ons com mitted as vice and virtue, iniquity or h o li nes s. 1n1849 that mitted to the gaol, of whom 48 p er cen t . wer e unable to read, 41 per cent. were ignorant of the Saviour's name and of the Lord's Prayer, 61 per cent, ignorant of the name of the Queen, 62 per cent. unacquainted with the meaning of virtue or vice, and 19 per cent. were unable to count up to 100. There was a similar report for 1848 ; and the rev. gentleman assured him that his statements were rather under the mark, and could be safely relied on as the result of careful personal observation, was as dreadful as it was disgraceful, things was disgraceful to the country, (Hear, hear.) It latelyf I a flattered a e r r s e:a : t p oh t ue to o s ie.ol b vu o eg a sh s t ityh o atfitiosiutfur rinstitutions,uber disturbed. m(y c .v e raa. l . n y B)dan j s oh u dtee c tl h tauor sgaf (Sirt: take at ji c t i a ey. t rlit e i,eheaae o akit f ti. ington) was struck with horror when he contemplated it. we set an example to other nations. A little while ago we our military system was perfect. That dream had been lest in other matters of groat weight and moment, instead of setting an example to other nations, we become their warning or their laughing-stock. He repeated, what could bo snore disgraceful, either to the country or to the House of Commons than that such a state of things should exist all around us. Were th ey to bear with it? Were they to say, " We are doing b e tt er every year ; we have liberal grants and an active C ommittee of Privy Council, and let us be content ?" Wa s it consistent with our duty to be content with such a state of things ener g y). 9 No, sir (ex claimed the right hen. baron e t with for one, will not be content. (Cheers inadequate I may be for the t as k I have.) And, however undertaken, I will venture to say that if the House of Commons allows a first a t d e u t o i f e s t h a i s n a g B C i h s r I‘ , s , t o i r a s n e tha n legislature. b : trbr s ( m a:sar i a ) a S r i . r ) , such a state of things to conti nue i t will neglect one of its s The rev. gentleman whose report I last referred to most truly uses that expression. He states, that out of the 2,000 prisoners of whom he spoke, 1 ,300 did not know the names of the months of the year, and 800 had never heard the name of the Saviour ! Most justly d oes h e say that their state is worse than barbarism. It is ignorance, gross and dense, of all matters, secular or religious. It is ig norance everything which can make them worthy of unhappy outcasts,the Se while they Saviour, or the the name of human beings. But, I repeat, it is worse a ti r l e an th b u ar s ba ig ro n n or s, ma f t or o t f he t c he these u n n a h m a existence of a God, are conversant with every form of vice, and familiar with crime of every ki n d . hear.) Yes, they are steeped in debauchery, ha iniquity—(hear, hear) — and for these wre tchedb rd ein e( g nn s ede y a o ir u n, pass stringent laws, and if they transgress h FI T e there arh can ar n t e h g e l m ect p o u f nish them severely, not reflecting if they areour really ignorance in C hurchmen, saolnemgei act s o l legislature. e alv . re ch u responsible a 1 1 o o r w th t h e i e r m a c t t o i e r n e% a i i n n , t f h r e o m d e o n u s r e like to know what these distinctions between Churchme n an d Dissenters signify to those thousands of miserable b e i ngs a and will insist upon teaching the Catechism; and oth ers aro paramounttold, e indeed e t e y w r d a , h s t y a h a ! C t b h this e r e iß a t u i i e n s Dissenters, and will not revere creeds. Sir, I should who are ignorant of the primary truths of Christianity ? (Hear.) I ask whether it is not a mockery to speak or think of such distinctions upon such a question ? (Rear, hear.) Is it not time anxiously and earnestly to consider, is there no middle term, no neutral ground, upon which Church men and Dissenters may meet, remembering the great car dinal doctrinesof Christianity on which we agree, thinking more of them than of the points (comparatively unim. poitwit) of Government and discipline on which we diff er ? (Hear, hear.) Ido not ask Churchmen to relinquish creeds and catechisms, I am a Churchman myself, and I will not consent to forego them. Neither do I ask Dissenters to accept anything they object to. But I implore them all alike--Churchmen and Dissenters—to reflect on this dread ful state of things which I have described, and to meet, or to endeavour to meet, in a spirit of toleration and forbear ance, and consider if the time has not come when some means should be adopted by which we may teach these miserable beings to whom I have referred their duty to Go.l and man. (Hear.) He would now state the nature of the measure which he had to propose. (Hear, hear.) He did so with the greatest diffidence, knowing the difficulty of the question, and ho did it in no party spirit and for no par ty purpose ; on the contrary, persuaded that if the subject were involved in the struggles of party it would never be settled, 'and his anxiety was to induce men of all parties to combine in the hope of solving this difficult question, and releasing the country from so disgraceful a state of things. (Hear, hear.) The first point he had to notice in his measure was one of doubt ; it was intended to be only permissive. He was not fond of permissive legislation, and knew of many in stances in which it had not conduced. to the public welfare. 1 But he knew the difficulty of the subject; and in his po- Gvernment infine , ,c linithoe-*t - •• pert:c ! i-; ,-; • r •,, • LUC pl 131' purposes of education to the present system of poor law relief, which had worked well, and, in his opinion, was applicable to the object he had in view. The noblest page muted that no AAA in our atatute-bwk wall that whic 11 .11, a a,/ucied. in the schools. And let it be recollected that the evil accu mulated every generation—that the parents, who them 301VOS were uneducated, were prone to disregard it, and , sst ablished in America, which everybody applauded, w hi c h 1 - 11 persons submitt e d t o with probably greater satisfaction la= they subscribed any other state impost whatever, could sot be transplanted into our own towns ?" ' the opinions of the hon. member for Manchester were— East, that religion should be taught; and secondly, that it might to be taught upon the American system. Well, I tale hon. members, in the spirit of candour and fairness, to . rig whether they really thought that the American sys -1 tarn could be adopted in this country? I think I can lialw• the house that it would be utterly impossible. In tenerica there was no one creed predominant. Lot me re- Hind the house of the mode and manner in which religion i :taught in America. Mr. Twisselton, an able and lis t languished gentleman, in his work upon the system of re -1 lgious teaching in the state of Massachusetts, states the f arowin„e facts :—This gentleman save he addressed a cer t dirt number of questions to the heads of the schools in the la iced States. He asked what the system of religion was t: to t was taught and how it had worked, and was informed tl tat the children received all distinct teaching according to t heir religious tenets. Then comes the question, " How do .t hey get it ?" The answer given is, " they are taught it at ho :e." Now, let me ask the gentlemen who advocate the intro lduc Lion of the American system into this country to say• • whether they are prepared to trust the teaching of rel ig ion to the children of England to their parents at home? Wha do they suppose is the home of those thousands to who , n I have referred—those thousands who have never he ar d the name of our Savour, and who scarcely know of th, I • existence of a God? Do not compare the state of a ye) , ii ‘g country like America, where there is a population so se, tnty and wealth so abundant, where poverty was al mc et• unknown, with the state of things in England, where we hada dense and pauper population whose education ha been long neglected. (Hear, bear.) I have shown you th at in all the countries of Europe religion was wisely put in fr, mt, and the first item in the educational code of all Ch ri Arian countries was religion. How then is religion to be ught in England ? Will you contend that in a popu lati oft so debased, so ignorant, and so irreligious as unhap pily-. e .xist amongst us, the wretched parents can or will tea eh their children as much religion as they ought to kn. ow ? In nay opinion if religion be not taught in schools it will not be taught at all. Well, in support of the sys tem: propose, lam fortified by the examples both of Pro test ea :t and Roman Catholic countries. First, I will quote Aire tr ia, in respect to which I find this account given of the ar ode in which the difficulty of religious teaching is met n--- " Vile Roman Catholic as the national religion is that tang itt in the schools of Austria; but dissenters from this fora t of faith are neither excluded nor separated, nor are they req , pied to engage in the religious services or peculiar cede sias tic al learning in these schools. In the Roman Catholic Bch( Mini the Jews, as well as the Protestants and other dis sent ere, arrive one hour after and leave one hour before the other pupils, these twe hours being occupied with religious servile a and instruction, such as was attempted in this coon_ try sex ne years ago. There are other non-Cath o li c schools, part ice larly in Transylvania and the military frontier, Gal ° ja and Silesia, Eohemia, and Corynthia, amount .l,oll7p'rimary schools, whose religious instruction is in acre ida nee with the creed of these countries, the oversight of whi ch "•s• committed to the clergy of each particular denomi rati .ore.." In Austria, then, you have the system established which I ve in tare to suggest for adoption in England—viz., teach ing ti se religion of the majority of the place ; but at the seines time showing the most perfect toleration to all others. In S n itzerland how do they act? " It t the majority of these schools the members of the dif ferei religious sects are received with a willingness and with a Ch ri stian charity which puts to shame our religions intoler ance., . Those who differ in faith from the master of the r sel cool are allowed to absent themselves from thg doctrinal lesse .ns given in the school, and are required to attend one of their o wn clergy for the purpose of receiving from him their should be destitute; and he desired to add a still nobler page to that book, providing that no man should be ig norant. (Hear, I.hear.) The areas within which he pro posed that the measure should operate were in corporate towns the limits of the municipal corporations, and in country districts the peor-law unions. He proposed that in the poor-law unions it should be optional to the rate payers to decide whether they would adept the act, pur suing in this reaped the precedent of the Public Libraries Act .f a recent session. If it be adopted, then I propose to elect an educational board, to be chosen by the rate payers at large ; that the management shall be placed in the hands of bodies popularly elected, following the plan pursued in the United States. But, it being most desir able that men of the highest education and position shall be members of the board, I propose that the qualification shall be a ratirg of 301. per annum, and that all the magis trates of the district shall be ex-officio members. (Hear, hear.) When the board is elected it shall have power to provide schools where they think them necessary ; to su perintend the general education of the district, to levy the rate for the purpose of maintaining the schools, and expend it. Sir this brings me to the volunta r y p r i nc ipl e . (Hear, hear.) I have thought much upon that subject, and the more wo consider it, the greater, I think, must be our general conviction that on the voluntary system we can not educate the people. (Hear, hear) I believe we can no more educate the people ou the voluntary principle as they ought to be educated, than that we can carry on a war or any other great enterprise by means of taxes volun tarily raised. (Hear, hear.) Government inspectors have afforded continued evidence that the people cannot be educated on the voluntary principle. But, sir, hardly a day passes that we do not receive beving-letters for assist ance. (Hear, hear.) I have in my hand a letter from a gentleman in the Eldon district in Sheffield, in which he says : " I beg leave to inform you that having been appointed to the newly-formed district of Eldon, Sheffield, containing a population of 5,500 souls, I built a church, which was con secrated in June, 1841, but it is still without a tower, and I have no schools built for the accommodation of the young. Chartism and infidelity avow in all directions their danger ous principles. (A laugh.) The young grow up in ignorance and vice. The temptations of a large manufacturing town arc felt iu numberless ways. Under these circumstances I am anxious to complete the work I have begun, and to raise a school for the reception of daily and Sunday scholars ; but local resources are few and scanty." Sir, I say the local resources ought not to be few and 'scanty. (Hear, hear.) I say that this district ought to pro vide schools without sending a bogging-letter for the pur pose. (Hear, hear.) Tho Rev. Mr. Kennedy, ono of the school inspectors, says, " Everything seems to point to a rate for education, for a want of proper funds leads to in efficient teaching" and other evils. In 1852, the same gentleman thus sums up his views : " There are 10 propositions on the subject which my ob servation leads me to affirm :-1. Elementary schools in general are not at this time being adequately maintained. 2. There is not a fair prospect, on the present system, that they will have a sufficient annual income. 3. On the con trary, there is in a majority of places a decline of income. 4. The endeavours to obtain yearly contributions to schools are harrassiug and vexatious, and the means sometimes re sorted to for raising funds, such as high fees and scales of fees, are injurious to the schools. 5. There is a painful and injurious uncertainty about the efficient maintenance of schools, also pernicious fluctuations of income, arising from such causes as the death of a benevolent landed proprietor, or of a liberal mill-owner, or the loss of a good !master, undoing ~ iti, a moment the work of years, and causing flourishing schools to fall Aq,deciy.,!.A...Many districts are absolutely unable -fli!onl;poierty to-`maintain good schools without extraneous 4fiainuatakk.,, , ,J. In Atricts where there is no absolute defi kne.. Of mwei- r y, 2l * .even where there is wealth, the schools :..re,,o ii suffeeted,to'languish from parsimony, or from in ..4ller6liee, anct,kieSra hostility to education. 8. It is desirable . 4 e al , iite the joai el iil-feelir , - ,T LI ..falo ` ie jeialmisiii an.. feeling often at present engen- doet ricetl instruction. Even in Fribourg, a canto,' governed •e among finferen religious denominations by contests for by ( lestiholic priests who are themselves under the influence of ;scriptioas to 'shools, &c., and to enable every deserving th e leteuits, Protestants may be found mingled with th e C a . school to have an independent income. 9. It is often very thol s it s in the schools, and are allowed to absent themsel ves desirable, but not,:feasible through want of means, to admit duri a g the hours of religious lessons; and in Argovie, a can some of the scholal's - free to school ; and, in some cases, ton - is , hich has lately so distinguished itself by its opposition wholly free 'schools ails-requisite. 10. The above-named evils t o vie Jesuits of Lucerne, I found that several of the pro &isnot be remedied, nor the wants s - applied, by other means feseore in the normal school were Catholics, and that the ut than by a vote for education." mos t tolerance was manifested to all the Catholics attending But I have other testimony from inspectors of schools, the ,ea ntonal schools." showing that we cannot go on as we aro. The voluntary ".le I Prussia every complete elementary school neces system is breaking down, and the only legiti ma t e mo d e of sarily- comprehends the following objects:-1. Religious in providing education for the people is by calling on them to strut ti on as a means of forming the moral character of chil contribute a rate for the purpose. (Hear.) But I think dren a wording to the positive truths of Christianity. 2. The these rates should ba assisted by public grants from the Gen ca; a language. 3. The elements of geometry, together Consolidated Fund, and that the whole burden ought not with ttie general principles of drawing. 4. Calculation and to be thrown oo the local rate. (Hear.) Therefore, in praci j cal arithmetic. 5. The elements of physics, geography, every case where the locality is called upon to provide a genes aal history, and especially the history of Prussia. 6. certain amount by rates, the public funds of the country Siugi re g. 7. Writing. 8. The simplest manual labours, and shall contribute in a fixed proportion. (Hear.) And this some I estructions in husbandry, according to the agriculture proposal is perfectly consistent with the course at present of the : respective parts of the country. pursued. (Hear.) Sir, I feel that the next proposal I "It was long debated in France how the difficulties arising shall have to make may, more than any other, give rise to from r , eligious differences should be overcome—whether they a difference of opinion ; bat the most anxious study I should I attempt to -establish separate schools for all the diffe could,give to the question has convinced me that the edu- rent set 3ts of Christianity ; whether they should open the cation of the country ought to be free. (Hear.) I pro- schools to all these various sects, and banish from them all pose, then, that all new schools shall be free schools, and religi out ; instruction ; or whether they should open the schools that whenever scholars are sent by the board to existing to th ati ifferent Christian persuasions, and commit the ma schools there shall be no charge for theireducation. (Hear.) nage; nen tof each to a master chosen from the most numerous lam well aware that upon this point a difference of opinion sect i a the department or commune of which it was the nor may exist ; but I think one of the weakest of the argu- mare eeelementary school. . . .- They (therefore) adopted meats of those who contend that education ought not to the t Ord alternative, and resolved to place each of the rmrmal be free, is, that the poor do net value education unless they schoi its of the different departments, and each of the primary pay for it. (Hear.) This argument I hold to be incon- ache( is of the different communes, under the management of sistent with human nature; fora man is glad to get agood a tea ewer selected from the most numerous Christian sect in thing for nothing if he can. The error arises, I bz.lieve, the d i-partment or commune in which the school was situated. from the fact—first, that we only know free education in They further arranged that the parents who differed in reli this country as conneeted with endowed wheels, the edu- gion i 1• om the master or director of the school should have the cation in a greater part of which is of an inferior quality; power- of requiring their children to absent themselves dur and, secondly, that the population confound education so ing th 5r i periods of religious instruction. . . . So far from conducted with pauperism. (Hear.) But the education religiCt4as education being overlooked in France, it is constantly of the poor relates not only to the individual himself ; it reform( Ito in the different decrees on the subject of education relates to the interest of the state—(hear)—and in this as of th c most deep and momentous importance ; and the re view every example and precedent leads me to the convic- ligioun education and moral character of the candidate mas tion that a free education is the best. Let us look to what ters are, strictly examined into before they can receive their has occurred in America in connection with this very eines- breve ts de capacite, enablin g them to conduct primary tion of free education. In Philadelphia, in 1835, there schouls." were 9,346 scholars in free schools, because those schools Now, V have given you examples of both Protestant were inferior ,• but the result of reformin g th em was th a t and ( fL . Violic nountriesin favour of the system— a s y s t em private schools became almost superseded; a nd i n 1845, whichin them all has been attended with the most instead of 9,346, there were 36,665 free scholars in Phila. perfe,,,t success, and which I venture to advocate. But is delphia ; while in 1852 the slumber had risen to 49,035. this p.n noiplo unknown in England? By no means. It . This occurred on depriving the schools of their pauper cha- has bee a tried in England. I haver on more than one °e recter, and showed that immediately they were thrown sion dry two attention to the signal success of the laudable open to , all classes gratuitously, the objection that the exertiot is of the present Bishop of Manchester, when ut people cared little for that for which they did not pay was the ho: ,d of that splendid school called King Edward's triumphantly met. In New York the question of free and School. (Hear.) In that school no dissenting child had non-free schools was also the subject of great discussion the relit ions doctrines taught there forced upon him. The I and division of opinion ; but the people of New York de- practical ' result has been this, that the children of every tided, by an overwhelming majority, -that the schools religious, denominatio n f ree ly came to participate in the should be free; and there are 700,000 scholars at this time advantai ;es of that school, and religious dissension was ut deriving the benefit of a free education, or one in five of terly nn known there. (Hear, hear.) At the present mo the whole population. (Hear, hear.) In Austria and ment th e same system was going on there and prospering. Holland the education is entirely free ; and I believe Well, I .ask what reason can be given against the intro that if you make education free in this country you dnctio a a such a system generally into this country which will promote its - interests, and that the whole system has be en. found to work BO advantageously in the other will be a better and sounder one than -if - You persevere in countriles I have mentioned? It seems to me that if hon. taking the existingochool pence from the scholars. In gentlemen will only approach the subject in the spirit of the countries where the free system does not prevail candour and fairness, there is no difficulty in it which can those who are poor are allowed to attend free ; but it not be , easily surmounted. Even the large number of would be difficult in this country to test who is and who schools. connected with the National Society do not insist is not able to pay, and the soundest plan will, therefore, upon th e teaching of the Chur c h C a t ec hi sm i n th e case o f be to decide that educatio n s h a ll b e f ree. This proposal,' Dissenting children. I,- therefore, submit to the house, however, is not essential to my bill, and I throw it out for looking' to the precedents of other countries, and the diffi the consideration of the h ouse . Si r, anot h er, and, as I culties of the subject in this oon n t r y, that this is the true think, an important element in nay bill, is that it does not solution of those difficulties. I will no longer detain the interfere with existing schools or with existing interests. house. I have now explained the whole of the grounis (Hear, hear.) We must not lose sight of what education upon which I think it is the imperative duty of radis hes effected, of the exertions of benevolence, or of the fact ment to legislate upon this subject. This bill may be un that in a great many instances the education is good. Bat successful in passing through this house, but I feel the I wish it to be understood that I interfere with no existing deepest conviction that the importance of the question will interests ; but that it shall be optional with every existing be increased more and more, and that ore long it must be school whether it will or will not come in union. If it do settled even a principle to the one I now submit. Sir, I not come within the union it will remain precisely where am willis ig to incur the risk of failure upon a question of it now is ; but if it come into the union, I shall respect such importance. (Hoar.) lam confident that even every existing school, on the condition, however, that the arsorgst my own friends I will be told that I have gone school shall be periodically inspected, and that they shall too f. sr—Churchmen may say that I concede too much, submit to the provisions of the act with respect to religi - while Dissenters will, perhaps, say that Ido not go fat ous teaching. The question of religious teaching I feel to be enowei. Well, I have endeavoured, with a sinlge-minded the most important of all, and the one most surrounded object, to deal with the question in a spirit of fairness and with difficulty; but I venture to ask the house whether justice to all classes and creeds; and in this spirit I now the dreadful state of things I have portrayed does not do- ask fer leave to introduce this bill. Be its fate what it mend that we should approach this religious difficulty in may, be its consequences to myself what it may, I shall the spirit of forbearance and moderation. There are two still possess groat satisfaction in knowing that I have pat ties in this country—the one to which I myself belong, always endeavoured to make my contribution to a subject insisting on the imperative necessity of religious teaching ; upon ' which I conscientiously believe that the welfare, the other insisting o n the s ec u l ar sy s t em . I confes s , sir, I the character, and the happiness of this country de canuot understand what the secular system is. Ido not pends„ (Cheers.) understand whether the subject of religion is t o b e b an i s h e d The SPEAKER having put the question, altogether, or that the Scriptures only shall be read and Mr. HADFIELD opposed the bill. After referring to doctrinal teaching be reserved for separate training. But I the progress which education had made within the last few ask the advocates of the secular system, first, to consider years, he proceeded to advocate the importance of estab the fact of our our haying an Established Church ; and, lishing Sunday schools in preference to day schools ; be secondly, that the immense majority of the people of this cause the difficulty of getting children to attend day schools country are attached to that Church. (No, no, from was se great that he did not believe that the number of Mr. Hadfield and the Nonconformists, and counter scholars would be greatly augmented if day schools were cheers.) Sir, I approach this subject with the most much increased. -He believed that it was the common de dispassionate intentions, the most disinterested oh- sire of persons of all creeds to promote the course of educe jects. (Hear, hear.) I know it is a question whether tion, but he was convinced that the object could never be the aggregate of Churchmen do or do not prepon- aocomplished by rates and taxes. There could be no real donate over dissenters, and that turns on the omission in success unless the voluntary system was adopted, and he the census to classify large numbers of the people—(hear) believed that compulsory rates, so far from assisting edu -but no one will deny that the Church is in an overwhelm- cation, would only retard progress and damage ex i s ti ng ing majority as compar e d w ith an y o th er d enom i nat i on. institutions. He was afraid that neither this bill nor that Mr. Horace Mann gives a census of the actual proportion of thenoble lord the member for London would meet with of the schools of the Church and of dissenters. the approbation of the country. Mr. HADFIELD—Day schools. Lord STANLEY. said, it- would - be eqiially difficult Sir J. PAKINGTON—Yes; and I find the total of day schools of the religious bodies to be 12,700 ; and the day and superfluous for him to follow his right hon. friend schools of the Church, 10,555 ; Independents, 453 ; Roman through the vast variety of important details which he had Catholics, 339 ; and Wesleyans, :381. We have, then, discussed, but he wished to take:this, the earliest opportu -10,555 schools in connection with the Church of England nity of expressing in the strongest and most decided man as compared with 12,700 of the various religious bodies. ner his approval of and adhesion to the general principles But, sir, we must not only consider the Established Church, upon which his right hon. friend had attempted to settle but the feeling of the country. (Hear, hear.) Assuming for the moment the secular system to be the best, I believe this question. The present time was most eminently fa that if you attempted to force it on the people of this coon- voura ble for th e se ttl emen t o f thi s controversy; thnetate of try, they would reject it. (Hear.) I maintain that the feel ing of England is against the secular system, and that you feeling was different in many respects from what it had been a few years ago, and there was upon all sides a grow ought to teach religion in your schools. The question then arises how to secure religious teaching, and reconcile it ing desire to effect some compromise and to make some with the most scrupulous regard for the conscientious feel- sacrifice in order to come practical arrangement. Some n , ings and opinions of dissenters. (Hear, hear.) The plan theories which were verys to a curr_e', and after discussion had i a f ew years ago had been I would venture to propose is, that schools in connection fully and frequentl y _ discussed, with every denomination recognised by the Committee of been coudem n ed by a majority both in. Parliament and in Council—whether Baptist, Presbyterian, or anything else-- the country. For instance, the voluntary system a few shall be equally entitled to claim the benefit of this act; but years ago wa s subject to this indispensable condition, that no child shall would not enter m uch more popular than at present ; he but ho into the was q n d question hoe far ' it could n e of i princ o iplewithregard be excluded from any school on account of its religions to thatt system, views. This I would apply equally to the Church and bee at all the education bills which had emanated b e adopted, and he thought it was impossi the dissenters. With regard to supplying educational defi leto ever y section of the house, without s ee i ng th a t ' e iencies by the creation of new schools, I hav e b ee n t o ld fr om e pure ly voluntary system was now supp o rted by a ver y that my measure would have been better had I struck out this part of my proposal; but, looking at the present state small minority. The hon. member for Oldham (Mr. Fox), 1852, introduced with great ability an education bill o f education in this country, I think every pl an w ould be in founded on the secular system ; a measu r e had also been incomplete which would not provide f o r ne w schools, fou introduced by the noble lord the Colonial Secretary ; and My proposal is, that the religions te a ching o f s uch schools now another one had been brought forward by his right shall be in accordance with the religious feeling of the dir e hon. friend, all of them, although differing in other re trict in which they are situated; that if a majority of spects, recognizing the principle of State interference, district is in favour of the teaching of the Church, it sha ll shall which principle had, therefore, i n his opinion, been adopted be taught—subject to the condition that Dissenters by a majority of the house. , (Hear.) They had for all practical purposes got rid of the purely voluntary theory, not be excluded from the schools ;but if the religious m jority of that district entertain anothe r . belief, then that Next came the purely secular principle • g so ro m un ti d ch of of the mischiefapect whichto lth it, he d • This, again, he the school shall be in accordance , with it, subject to - woultdsaayr strong feelings were entertainedpriwnitchiplree and, a ouh the same rules that all Church scholars should be re been ceived into the school. The hon. member for Manchester that gu eu p h o e n s e t e h n e 111):itentesnrdigonnoeratnoceouinr populationlwabho.cuhrinthgeyta had (Mr. Bright), in a speech at Manchester, at the commence by the gross and ment of last year, had admitted the importance of teach u e i left, that be was any feasible plan that would ing religion to thechildren. . He said— prepared to support almost give them the elements 9 f_knowledge, or at least enable "He could not see any connection necessarily between re them to acquire knowledge themselves. (Hear, hear.) ligion and arithmetic, for example, or between the doctrines He believed, however, that in the present state of ! feeling of Christianity and any of those other matters which formed in this country the secular system was one which it would the ordinary branches of education. He admitted, of course,. that if a man was thoroughly educated—and, speaking in a _beoti,tte,rly impossible to carry ou t . I n th e fi rs t p l ace , it Christian country, he might add, if ho was a complete Chris 7itilln be opposed by th e c l ergy of a ll d enom i nat i ons , num erng ian m a n—he must not only have that instruction which was to be obtained in the ordinary routine of schools, but he u in England and Wales alone, 15,003 able, active, must also have, from some source or other, a training and and educated men, exercising great influence in their re a:situation i 3 reati. .of ; , ' °:-oili,il3',, ; bet then there . spective localities. The feeling of the great mass of the were nii sort of k- . ' , „,: ri.' 4 ,.•:.;e11i,,,5; .e,f rcli b iou I laity Was also against a System 10-li011;ii•I not include souse and the teaching of those things as regarded the place wh ere mixture of reli g i ons t eac hi n g. Some persons w hot o h u o l u de gtt they were taught or the teacher by whom they wer e t aug ht.' that a no n -d enom i na ti ona l s ystem was the best w In a subsequent part of his speech the hon. memb er says— Willi ng, for the sake of in t he f e eling 15 of the country, but se curing it, to wait or 20 years 'until a change took place - ,' The question was, why Wa s it tt l §t 4 V BOl4 w hich was that ct hilt view, Tao was Waling W work wails! _ was ra --- - • as far as! the fitting of the ships is concerned, I may mention that the ships fitted up at Deptford was as creditable and satisfactory its could be. (Hear.) Lord, PANMURE said, with reference to the stearn vessels, the impression should not go abroad that any of them Iv re lying useless. There was not a steam-vessel in the :Black Sea at this moment that had not their duties assigned to them, or where the opportunity oc curred, these vessels bad not been brought home ; and wherever the Government amid avail themselves of steal" t-vessels they had done so. (Hear.) Aft a r a few remarks from the Earl of ALBE3I4IIILE in reply, and from the Earl of LIICAN, the motion was. withdtra CRIMINAL JUSTICE BILL. On the motion of the LORD CHANCELLOR, this bill v m read a third time. The 'Commons Inclosure Bill was read a second time. GENICKAL FAST AND HUMILIATION DAY. Earl, GRANVILLE moved that the Bishop of Sails bury t i 0 r , !que,ted to preach a sermon before their lerd ships ii Westminster Abbey on the morning of Wed nesda: r next, the 21st instant—that day having been order( cl by her Majesty to be observed as a day of general fast an ,house adjourned at 20 minutes to seven o'clock until onday. Hi FUSE OF COMMONS—YESTERDAY. The SPEAKER took the chair shortly before four o'clool ;, NEW MEMBER, The Tight Honourable W. KEOGH, the new Attorney- Genert: u for Ireland, took the oaths and his seat, on his re-elec ;ion, for Athlone. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The following bills were read a third time and passed : —Can' !)ridge University and Town Water, Over Dar wen C Pudsey Gas, Taunton Gas, and Woolwich Consu, tiers' Protective Gas. PETITIONS. Mr. ifHORNELY presented a petition from Wolver liampt. mi praying for the repeal of the newspaper stamp. Sir T. WALNISLEY presented a similar petition. Also a petition from the Leicester Gas Light and Coke Compf goy, against the Public Health Bill. :MUNTZ presented a petition from a newspaper proprit r;or in Birmingham, praying for the repeal of the newsp tper stamp. Mr. :MICHELL presented a petition from a place in the NV slt of EnglanJ, against the sale of intoxicating liquors on Sundays. Mr. , GOULBURN presented a petition from the Natior ol School Society, against certain clauses in Lord J. Ru- s ell's Education Bill. Sir ;,r. ANDERSON presented a petition from Glas gow p - ra.ying for the repeal of the newspaper stamp. Mr. S COBELL presented a petition from the publi cans of 'Bath, praying for the repeal of the Beer Act of last se Si ion. Mr. HORSFALL presented a petition from Liver pool a: r; :inst the openirg of the National Gallery and British :Museum on Sundays. Lord. It. GROSVENO ft presented a petition agreed to at a pt iblio meeting of the working classes of Westmin ster,'pr 4y iog that public houses should be closed during the whole c f Sunday. On the motion of the noble lord the petitior .was read by the clerk at the table. Mr. STAFFORD presented a petition from Nor thampt om, praying that the entire system of promotion in the Iraq by purchase may be abolished. Mr. 4...PELLATT presented a petition from a tallow boiler in t Lambeth, now a prisoner in Hor6ernonger-lane prison, . r'ating that twelve months ago he was indicted and con doted under the Nuiances Removal Act and fined 7i , OM, but being unable t 3 pay th e fi ne he had been imprisoned ever since. The petitioner prayed t ;riat the house take his case into consideration with a N i el , to his liberation. ROYAL COMMISSION. Mr. 'ULMAN, the Yeoman Usher of the Black Rod, ap F •eared at the table and summoned the house to attend a t the bar of the Peers to hear the Royal assent given by , commission to several acts, for which see Lords' report. UNFUNDED DEBT. Sir WILLOUGHBY gave notice that on the mo tion for going into committee of supply, he should call attenti( in to the state of the Unfunded Debt. CAPE OF GOOD HOPE. Mr. IR ENN fDY asked the Secretary of the Treasury whether in the present unsettled state of the eastern frontier c , f the Cape of Good Hope, it was the intention of the Go , re rnment to establish more frequent communica tion wi th that colony, by contract with a steam packet compa sy or otherwise. Mr. WILSON said the subject had been under con siderati,c n for the last two months, but no arrangement had yet, been come to. lETROPOLITAN GRAVEYARDS. Mr. 11 . BERKELEY asked the Secretary of State for the E tome Department whether he was aware that at many( ,f, the cemeteries in the east of London, for instance Kelde: ; Ground, Bethnal-green, Saint James the Less, Bethne d. green, and the Victoria-park Cemetery, they were in the daily practice of burying many bodies in one grave, ; ii id did not comply with the conditions on which they h• L( I been allowed to continue open, and that nearly 1.1 . 1 the cemeteries in the neighbourhood of London still ad o , ,pt the system of pit burial ; and, if he was aware i of this, whether he meant to prevent it ? Sir G. GREY said the Victoria-park Cemetery was not wit hi'n the jurisdiction of the Secretary of State, but sfht, nv nf. Vir g been sent into the llome-office, com plainin g .of their stite, an inspector had b.fm directed to report oit the condition of the other graveyards. The St. Jar aelo the Less ground had been violating the Order in Coui rc il, and a communication had been made to the manag , ni; on the subject. SOLDIERS' WIVES. Mr. ;KINN.A.IRD asked the Under Secretary for War if a ny order had been sent, either to Constantinople or to S et Mari, to send home those soldiers' wives whose services were not required as nurses or laundresses ; also, if any n ieasures bad been taken to provide proper ac commo ds ,tion in the barracks about to be erected at Dover an d elsewhere for the wives of soldiers who were permittet Ito marry ? Mr.. PEEL replied in the negative to the first ques tion. /With regard to the second, the plan of the bar racks at Dover had not yet been settled. BROWN BESS. Mr. 79 ORSFALL asked the Under Secretary for War w hether it was a fact that the 6th Regiment of Foot, n o w under orders for the Cape, were about to be sent out. with no other firelock than the old Brown Bess. Mr. P EEL said it was a mistake to suppose that the 6th Reo ment of Foot was now under orders for the Cape, b.ec:ause that regiment had been in service in the Cape fo): some years. It was armed with the percussion musket, and the detachment now about to be sent out to join . tt would be armed in the same way. SOLDIERS' KNAPSACKS, Mr. RERESFORD asked the Under Secretary for War wh ether a knapsack, known as "Brady's Patent," and co n. lemnel at Chobliain by a committee of officers convivial ding regiments, was not authorised by the late Secret at yat War for the use of the militia, and a great number of them issued accordingly, notwithstanding that a k napsack of a different pattern was established in the re: t liar army ? Mr. PEEL said it was optional with the colonels of militia, regiments to select what knapsack they thought best suited to their men. STAMPED ENVELOPES. Mr. T. DU1601118143 asked the Secretary of the TreasuLry when it was likely that the public would be able to obtain stamped sheets of paper and private enve lopes lior free transmission by post. Mr. WILSON said instructions had been given to the Board of Inland Revenue to make the necessary ar rangelaieuts for issuing stamped paper and envelopes, and in. about two months he expected such arrangement would be completed. The public would have 101. worth of stamped paper issued to them for the duty, but par ties requiring paper to be stamped for a less amount, would have to pay ls. beyond the duty. LETTER-CARRIERS. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE called the attention of the hon. member to the fact, that his promises, on the part of the Government, that the recommendations contained in thct Report on the Past-office, relative to the letter carriers of the metropolis, should be speedily carried out, remain unfulfilled. Mr. WILSON said steps had been taken for carrying out the. recommendation at once, and a notice on the subject would be issued to-morrow. THE BUDGET. Sir H. 'WILLOUGHBY asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he intended to make his Financial State- ment before Easter ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said there were several reasons, one of which was the period at whi ch the financial year would terminate. That would induce him not to make his Financial Statement until after Easter. GENERAL EDUCATION. Sir J. PAKINGTON rose to move for leave to bring in a bill for the better encouragenient of general education in England and Wales, and proceeded to address the house as follows :—Sir, I must, in the first place, beg to express my grateful sense of the courtesy and the fairness with which the noble lord has permitted me to-day, a day usually devoted to Government, to bring under the consideration of the house the motion of which I have given notice. It is perfectly true that after the postponement of my motion to which I consented in consequence of the state of public business, I might have laid the bill of which I had given notice on the table in the same manner in which the noble lord the member for London had introduced his measure upon the same subject, and that I might have reserved any statement I might have to make until the second reading of the bill. But I was unwilling to take that course, partly because there are several portions of this great ques- tion of the education of the people to which I am very de sirous of drawing tho attention of her Majesty's Govern ment and of the house in a preliminary statement, such as I am now about to make ; and partly because I confess I feel, that in my position as an independent member of this house, possessing no official power or influence, to have proposed a measure upon a question of this magni tude, without making any statement of the grounds upon which I did so, and of the nature of the proposal itself which I was about to submit to the house, would, in my humble judgment, have been an unusual course, and a course disrespectful to the house. I am in hopes that the House of Commons will consent to withd raw fr.r s I.: ;,,) . ;t:altion -f 1.1 , e ab- sorbing inter t 3 of LIP) ar3 engaged, an, - to devotP, irifi..ion ~ F ;411e..iti , 11 litiVu to be by far the niust invertant, and not only the mo,t important, but the most pressing of all the questions of the present day affecting the welfare and the institutions of ibis country, (Hear.) I hope that after a brief time, means now at their disposal, and he was satisfied that at' present no system would be successful which was not, to a certain extent, a denominational system. (Hear, lipa r .) Assuming, then, the two princiffes of State interferen ce and religious teaching, it remained to be seen w h at were the other requisites for an efficient educational I:me s s sure. Ho thought there were two others. They must have a full recog nition of, and a sati s f ac t or y means of in cluding, the sch ools now in existence. He did not believe that any scheme would work which undertook to remodel the whole educational system de novo, and excluded or re. fused to recognise existing schools. He was quite aware of the inefficiency of the existing means of education ; h e knew that our schools were insufficient in number and in adequate in the quality of the teaching they afforded, but still they gave instruction after their manner to a large portion of the population, and many persons took an in terest in them, and any scheme for sweeping them away would meet with such opposition that it could not piss through Parliament. His right hon. friend's bill allowed. these schools to stand aloof—it was a permissive, not a com pulsory measure. It permitted them to j oin on two reasonable and simple conditions. The *et, that of inspection, followed almost necessarily the principle of a Government grant,for, if Government gave assistance to a school from any public funds, the persons who contributed to those funds ought to know in what manner they were expended. The other condition which his right hon. friend desired to impose was more important—it was that of making the reli g i ous teach ing in all State-assisted schools optional, not compulsory. He believed it was only by means of such a permission that the existence of denominational schools, supported by the State, could be reconciled with common justice towards the various schools at present in existence. A purely denoixd. national system would necessarily be productive of great unfairness towards those sects which, being small and scat tered, could not establish schools of their own, and in order, therefore, to do justice towards such 'religions communities, it was not enough to give them the means of establishing schools of their own ; but they must also have legislative permission for the children belonging to them to frequent the schools established by public grants without being required to attend religious teaching. Although he had listened with interest to his right hon. friend's statement upon this point, he was not quite sure how far he meant to go, but he was sure that this scheme could not be worked out unless it were broadly laid down that attendance upon all relig ious teachi ng s h ould be optio na l w ith th e parents of the ch ildren. He did not understand how there could be any objection to such a pro vision. He could understand and respect the feelings of a man who claimed religious equality, but he could not understand the feelings of those who said they would. not allow the children of other sects to go to their schools un less they were permitted to force their own religious teach ing upon those children. He had no doubt that this per missive provision would meet with much opposition from various quarters, as it would neither satisfy those who de sired an absolutely non-sectarian system, nor those who desired a purely denominational system ; but the principle upon which it was founded was analogous to that which had been established 20 years ago, and had since worked so successfully in Ireland. That part of his right hon. friend's measure in which he proposed the establish ment of new schools seemed to him open to serious objection. (Hear, hear.) He was not ignorant of the necessity which existed for the establishment of those schools, and he admitted that the plan of having the religious teaching in them settled by the majority was the fairest and most equitable that could be adopted, but he thought that it was an experiment which would excite a great deal of angry feeling, and not be likely to succeed. But this was simply an addition to the bill which might be removed, in no way affecting its general principle. He thought the measure did all thatcould be expected is the way of reeog aising and including existing schools, and it else affirmed as far as possible the principle of local self-government. He thought it of great importance that districts were not compelled, but only empowered if they thought fit, toavail themselves of this bill, because he knew that in many places there was a strong feeling entertained against State inter ference in matters of education, and this feeling mainly Arose out of a dread of centralisation. In this bill three different provisions were made—they provided for Central direction and advice under the Minis terof the Crown; then they provided for assistance from the local public fund/ ; and at the same time, while the bill gave important assist. ance from the State, it in no way discouraged, but rather tended to encourage, the exertions of individuals and of public bodies throughout the country. The bill also recog nised various principles which he believed necessary to a successful educational measure ; it recognised the principle of religious teaching, also that of including existing schools in the system ; but, above all, it recognised the principle of local self-government and management. The rest of the bill, though very important, was, comparatively speak ing, matter of detail, for the full discussion of which ample opportunity would be afforded. He was very much en couraged at seeing the little difference in point of principle that there was between the present bill and that introduced from the other side of the house some time ago. He had no doubt that when the noble earl who presided over the board of education should introduce the bill, which wall understood to be in course of preparation, then both that bill and the present could be referred to a committee, and on consideration of the t wo , h e h ope d th at th ey would not only be able to carry an additional measure, but that they would silso:he able to do so by a large majority. (Hear.) Sir G. GREY said that the house was not called upon to pronounce any decision with regard to the measure which the right hon. baronet now proposed to introduce; but he now rose to express, on the part of the Govern ment, their cordial assent to the motion before the house, and to say that the right hon. baronet was entitled to great credit for the large, eomprehensive, and liberal na ture of the scheme which he had propounded. (Hear, hear.) He (Sir G. Grey) oaly wished that he could be sanguine as to the success of the measure ; but he was sure that this discussion would be extremely useful. With regard to the bases on which the measure of the right hon. gentleman proceeded, h e h a d on l y to state that they met with his concurrence. Reference had been made to statis tics; and, without pledging himself to their accuracy, he believed it was perfectly true that at the present time a large portion of the children of the lower classes re ceived only a very imperfect education, or none at all, and that this was a prolific source of crime. Zuch a state of things was not creditable to a Christian and civilised country. liere .. he must advert to" one point which - had' escaped the notice of time right hon. gentlernan." In this counts* we had never yet attempted a compulsory system of education—he meant. a system which compelled parents, tinder penalty, t o sen d their children t o school. Schools might be multiplied, but the evil could not be effectually remedied so long as a large portion of the community was indifferent to the value of education. Many people would not send their chil dren to school if they could make a profit of their labour. He did not say that ho was prepared to attempt a com pulsory system, but he believed that until it was attempted. a large portion of the community would remain unedu cated. He agreed with the right hon. gentleman in think; big that the voluntary system had failed to accomplish the objects intended.' It had no doubt done much goad, but it had not been able to keep pace with the increased popula tion of the country. He believed that there would be diffi culty as to the mode of applying the money raised for the purposes of education, but he thought; that the scheme of. educational boards was one as good as 'could 'be 'framed.' He was afraid that in the country districts the permissife. - nature of the measure might render the proposed system of little real benefit. He agreed that' it would be impos stoi unlessb e l e existing anticipateihnegrthere waßschools. i in some success sow.it whinaryeaganyr dengrafted plan to i s l e f w ugeneralpnit schools,educationaBstiithe et a dif ficulties c would be very great. They were, he concluded from the statement of the right hon. baronet, to be schools in accordance with the religious views of the majority of the inhabitants in the particular district. In the country districts ' the majority would belong to the-Established Church, and, in that case, was no provi s i on to be made , for the education o f the Children of those who dissented. from the Church ? The amount ot theproposedrato was not stated. (Sir J. Pakington—The maximum would be lid.) He (Sir G. Grey) fully agreed that the generalfeeling of the country was that religion should be connected with any sys tem of national education. This fact, he believed, had been sufficiently proved in the debates on the Manchester and Salford Bill. The supporters of that measure were of opinion that children should receive religious instruction when they were net at school. Mere was, therefore, no irreconcileable difference blitween the views of the right hon. baronet and of those who were the advocates of what was termed the secular system. The only objection which he should have to referring the bill to a committee was, that they might be travelling over the same ground which they had investigated when the Manchester and Salford . Bill was before the house, and thus there might be an in definite postponement of leg islation on the s u bj ec t. H e trusted that the right hon. ronet would not pre ss the se cond reading of his bill before Easter, and that - when the house cameto its consideration in detail, it would 410 so with a determination to accelerate the progress of education in this country. It had been said that pupil-teachers re ceived so high an education that they left the business of teaching to engage in other callings. He said that they should endeavour to elevate the education of the teachers, and to make their occupation more worth their while by giving them higher salaries. (Hear, hear.) Ps had l also been said that the grants of the committee of counc il h ad not been fairly administered amongst the pcArer:cl asses. He found from a Parliamentary return that in. Sp]t alfields there had been grants amounting to 770/. ; in St. George's. in-the. Bast, grants amounting to 2,8001. ; in St. Mary's, Tothill-fieldg, grants amounting to 1,3501..; in White chapel, grants amounting to 1,060 ; and in the different districts of Bethnal-green, grants amounting to 9 ,062/. (Hear, hear.) He merely now would add thitt he gave his most cordial assent to the introduction of the bill, and that he hope d it would tend to ad vance th e cause of edu cation in t is country. (Hear, hear.) Lord It. CECIL condemned the bill as not differing ap preciably from the secular system, and challenged the fairness of the right hon. baronet's statistics. Mr. W. J. FOX cordially re-echoed the sentiment of the right hon. baronet, that the advocates; of all the dif ferent schemes should endeavour to approximate to eac h other, and to concede all that was possible for the sake of obtaining some general scheme. In that spirit L o was willing to consider the bill now brought before the house, and ho regretted that the noble lord who last spoke had not done the same. Ono feature in this bill he particu larly admir ed 17 - 00 tut hhl would t i ra a ce l t l h ia t ls b d o r se s on c r li t o o o f l smNyo educated.er were t o be fre e ; an d 1 if the great masters made edu ca ti on a condition of of the se cu l ar system, but he would not allow i d e f u 1 s o n i ° d n a d u p th on e em ployment,iprairnecaitpaletos his preference of that system to stand in the way of a can did and even grateful consideration of the hon. baronet's b Mr. M. GIBSON also agreed with much that was in the bill. The rock a-head, he feared, was that in every school supported by rates some religion or other was to be taught. H o was sure the sincerely religious people of this country would not agree to support all sorts of religion out of rates, and therefore ho would far rather leave religion to be ta ug ht i n separate h ours an d by , different th te at he w ach o e u ru and he t oo k thi s oppor t un ity of giving notice on an early day move for leave to bring in a bill for f ree schools on the secular system, so that the house might have all the schemes before them together. Mr. ADDERLEY preferred this bill to Lord J o h n Russell's. Lord PALMERSTON—I am sure the house is greatly indebted to the right hon. bait. for the most interesting and able speech with which he prefaced his motion, showing as it did, that he had given his powerful and vigorous mina to the investigation of one of the most interesting and impor tant subjects to which a public man can devote his atten tion. With regard to the measure he proposed, until it is laid before the house, and we have.seen the details printed, I think it would be premature to express any decided opi t nion upon the comparative mer i ts of the scheme of the right hon. bait. and that of my noble friend the member for the City of London And heie I may remark that I think, in truth, some of the olsservations of the hon. gen tleman who last addressed the house oa the bill of my neble ftiend, rather anticipated future discussions, and perhaps therefore were not exactly in point on the present occasion. It is true, as stated by the sight hon. bait-, that there is a great want of some more efficient system for the education of the lower classes. I cannot, however) help thinking that ill ache dews* he hat; vauggratvd the 16 131 of tage,4 060 'la ochoer co ifs A i it sif' tli bo 1, 6 o l b : ifi ba ri ,e3 5 ojtP bets ~~ ~' ,~ ii l t