The Sun. — London, England, 1820-10-21 00:00:00

PARLIAMENT, HOUSE OF LORDS-YESTERDAY THE QUEEN'S DEFENCE. [Continuation of Yesterday's. Proceedings.] After the first division, the LORD CHANCEL.. LOR said, " I am commanded, Gentlemen, by the House, to inform you, that they. have decided this question cannot be put:" BRODOILIM.—" Then my Learned Friends and I are to understand yoiir Lordship, that the House rejects all evidence of acts 9f agency, or subornation or witnesses ? Permit me to say, with all deference, that I think this topic has been considered in a light not exactly applicable to the preient case. Such evidence tendered in 'a prosecution against A. B. I know could not be received ; but I submit that this proceeding is .different altogether in its nature from the cases put:. Here, properly ”speaking in a technical sense, there are no two parties before the Court ; :and therefore the opinion of the Learned J udges, as far as appears to me, seems to indicate that they have viewed the question in a light not applicable to the present proceeding. In an or dinary -case in the Courts below, the witnesses may depart the. Court as soon as .they are cross examined: but here the witnesses are in constant attendance on this Court by order of the Court. I have no further argument on this point." Here the Learned Counsel paused.—(Cries of " go on" proceeded from several Peers.) Mr. BROUGHAM consulted with his Learned Coadjutors—(Cries of " Go on," again proceeded from different parts of the House.) Mr. BROUGHAM.—" My Lords, I was re quired to give information to the House when I should have closed this branch of my case. In consequence of the decision of the House, I beg leave to say, I have now closed that part of her Majesty's defence which relates to mai-practices against her." The Marquess of LAissnowN said, having given notice of his intention, as soon as that branch of the examination had terminated, to make.a mo tion for the production of that part of the corre spondence between Mr. Powell and Colonel 'Brown; which related to Rastelli, it would.now be his duty shortly to state the grounds of his motion. He thought their Lordships' could not, consistently with justice, and a due regard to the dignity of their character, neglect to probe to the bottom the circumstances to which that part of the correspondence he had mentioned related. Their Lordships knew that after, if not an order of their House, at least such - an intimation as could not but be considered as equivalent to an order, that none of the witnesses who had been examined at their bar should be withdrawn, one of those witnesses had been sent out of the country by one of the agents for the .Bill, with a passport from the Foreign Office, where no order had been given to withhold passports. The agent had in consequence been called to their Lord ships' bar, and been examined as to his motives in that proceeding.—[The Noble Lord read from the printed minutes, that part of Mr. Powell's examination on this subject where he stated his motives in sending Rastelli away to he to quiet the apPrehensions of the families••of the witnes ses for their safety, and to bring back .a paper which he sent out by him.]--Their Lordships had thought it their duty to examine the agent as to his motives, and having heard these motives from the agent on oath, they would find, if they believed Mr. Powell, and far be it from him to impute to that Gentleman that he had spoken any thing but the truth, that he had not given any particular instructions to Rastelli ; ought they not therefore to get at the precise nature of mission from the best evidence now left them for ascertaining—namely, the letters between Mr. Powell and Colonel Brown ? He thought the same grounds on which they had put the ques tion to the witness at the bar, were Sufficient to induce them to call for these papers. Their Lordships having made themselves the party to this Bill, he called on them to.consult what they had rendered their own interests, by demanding of their own agent a thorough explanation of his motives for violating their order. Was there any one among their Lordships, who, if he were the principal in a cause in any of the Courts, and his agent had in violation of the orders of that Court done any act to impede the 'administra tion of justice in the cause, would not not only consent, but insist on his giving an account of his motives in such a proceeding, for instance, as the withdrawing of a witness? If they examined the evidence of Mr. Powell, no objection could arise to the course he proposed, because, if Mr. Powell spoke the truth, which, as he had said before, he by no means wished to dispute, his sole mo tive had -been that Rastelli might assure the fa milies of the witnesses of their safety, and bring hack a paper with which he had charged him, and he had so stated in a letter to Col. Brown ; what objection then could there be to producing that part of the letter to Colonel Brown, which con tained that statement, .and the letter from Col. Brown, in which he assigned Rastelli's illness as the only cause of his not returning,• when by their production, Mr. Powell's testimony on these points would only be thereby confirmed ? 'Their Lordship could obtain nothing by the production Of the papers for which he moved but a confir mation of the evidence given by the agent, as to his sole motives in sending the witness out of the Country cothrary to their order, if that evidence were correct, and it appeared to him to be highly Important that that confirmation should be had. He therefore moved, that Mr. Powell be called to the bar of the House and dfrected to produce such parts of his correspondence with Colonel Brown as relate to the sending hack of Rastelli in September last, and to the cause g f his not re turning. The Eail of LivEurooLadrnitted this case was wholly different from that of any individual pro sfteuttie, in which no power existed that 'could ' hgally call for the disclosure of a confidential communication. 13nt ) 'altliOngh he readily achnit 7 ted that the House had, by ordering the attend ance of the Attorney-General in support of the Bill at their Bar, assumed a mixed character, yet. he contended that in appointing agents to prose cute the Bill, they had invested those persons with the usual privileges and immunities of pri vate agents, and had. given a confidential cha racter to all correspondence betweth them as agents for the Bill, which rendered its production in his opinion liable to all the objections against the disclosure of the confidential communications of private 'agents: .13esides, it might be impos sible to make "the required extracts without garb ling the contents of the letters, or making such a disclosure of the rest as their Lordships had not in their con temelation ; •if - their Lordships should therefore incline to the opinion that the part of the letters .moved for ought to be produced, he thought it preferable, and should therefore have less objection to procure the desired information, by referring the whole of the letters to a Secret Committee. Lord K usa~ 1 , at the commencement of these proceedings the Soble Earl opposite . had, with great appearance of candour, declared his wish that the whole proceedings from beginning t o end should be sifted to the bottom. Ile (Lord King) could not reconcile that declaration with the Noble Earl's opposition to the present mo tion. The Queen's Counsel had openly made a charge of conspiracy. Hastelli was proved to have been one of the most active agents of the' Milan Commission ; he was charged by .the Queen's Counsel as being a leading member of the conspiracy, and he had in a most improper wanner been removed out.of the Country by the agent of their prosecution. He (Lori King) thought this conduct so' flagrant , that in his opi nion, if a similar act were done in a cause pend ing, in the Courts below, the Court would not suffer the agent to continue in his office. He could not see what reasonable objection-the Noble Earl could have to the production of thercorres pondence. The object of the motion was to discover 4 - hether Rastelli had been sent out of the country from a mistaken though not impro per motive ; or whether he had been withdrawn' to prevent the exposure of the conspiracy charged by the Queen's Counsel. If this case differed from other cases in some instances, it dif fered also very materially in this, that there was no ascertaining. with certainty Ow was the prosecutor. The other day something like" an admission had been made by the Noble Earl on this subject ; which he now appeared dis posed to retract. •He should consider the rejec tion of the . present motion an attempt to screen the getter up of this prosecution from an inquiry, the juice of which would be cofirmed by that very re st jection. The Noble Eari n had said, that neither he nor his friends had any personal an xiety respecting the result of the present prose cution. He (Lord K.) could only say, that if they had not, they possessed — nerves of a firmer texture than were eyer possessed by any set of Ministers since the time of the Cabal ; for they had engaged in measures in which no man had ventured to engage since then ;. and which had left them exposed to a very serious responsi bility. These proceedings had been made a mystery by the subordinate agents, and the Mi nisters had, adopted the mystery. Some of these agents were known and some unknown : but it was known that the. Hanoverian Minister had been very busy in the business, for he had ex amined, engaged, and sent , over Barbara Krtiss. There appeared to be a mystery, a kind of double machinery, throughout the whole business ; and unless the House accepted the invitation of the Noble Earl " to probe the business to the bot tom," their Lordships' high-sounding professions about justice and impartiality would be ridiculed and held by the public in perfect contempt : and it would be insinuated that they had some im proper inducement for shutting out the inquiry. Lord ELLENBOROUGII thought it right to say, that he saw no reason to change the opinion which he had given on this subject on a former occasion. He did not believe that there was any mystery in this case. Ile was anxious that the truth should not be concealed, and in this feeling-he should vote for the production of the correspondence in question. He agreed, however, in the propriety of referring the documents to a Secret Committee. Lord Ross,LYN apprehended that it. was 'only for the protection of the client tilat agents were not allowed to give evidence. In this case it was the agent, and not the client, who was implicated; and in this view he thought the papers required ought to be produced to time House. He appre hended that the agents in the present case were acting for the llouse, with a view to the interests of the public, and the question was, whether that House, as the principals, were disposed to throw impediments in% the -way of getting at the truth. The Earl of LlvEitroor, considered the evi dence at the Bar of a different nature from the contents of written documents. Having stated his objection, he should not press it further. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that with a view to the justification of Mr. Powell in this case, he felt himself called upon to say, that if he had not made the objection which he did to the pro duction of these papers, he ought never to be employed as agent again—(lear, Hear:) — If it was contended that the agents for this Bill were acting for that House, and that therefore these papers ought on that account to be produc ed, he protested he saw no reason why, upon the same principle, they might not call for the brief of the Attorney-General, and the whole of the .correspondence which had taken place 'on this subject. If the parts of the letter required could be conveniently extracted, be should make no objection to the course suggested ; but he desir ed it to be understood, in saying this, that he by no means conceded the sacredness of the prin ciple which, had been so fairly stated by the Noble Earl (Liverpool) as to the general rule re specting the communication of confidential docu ments entrusted to the care of - agents. Lord REDEsnAi,E denied that any evidence had been adduced, which *fixed Ristelli 'as an agent. Lord P,llSlONEstibniittea, that the ads. Of gas telli had clearly placed him in the character of an agent. The Matquess of LANSDOWN said, that the nous%was as much justified itt,alling for tligiv lette•Os if the communication. betniee'n PONsien and Nonel Bro4tpifa.4..sllkn Having no 513:Rct banast i llie''Cititli should t e got at, he begged: leave so far to alter his motion as to move—That Mr, Powell should - be called on to produce the papers, and that those papers should be submitted to a Secret Committee. The Earl of LIVELPOOL suggested that a Com mittee be appointed to call for such parts of Mr. Powell's correspondence as they might deem ne cessary. Lord HOLLAND said the subject now resolved itself into a question of privilege. The Loan CHANCELLOR did not wish to limit the privileges of the House, but he should be sorry that any measure was adopted that left pri vate correspondence unprotected. The Marquess of BUCKINGHAM said, if the ob ject of their Lordships was to elicit the truth, he did not think that object would'be attained by merely submitting extracts of the letters to a Se cret Committee. If their Lordships deemed it necessary to break through- the ordinary rules, he thought they should give the Secret Committee more extensive powers. The Marquess of LANSDOWN repeated his The Earl of LAUDERDALE wished to know the precise words of it. The LORD CHANCELLOR then put the motion, which Was as follows That a Secret Com mittee be appointed to inquire into and examine the Correspondence between John Allan Powell and Colonel Brown, so far as relates to the Mis sion of Rastelli to Milan, and the cause of his not returning." The Earl of LAUDERDALE objected to the mo tion, and submitted to their Lordships, that there never was a more extravagant proposition than that now before them. It was contrary to all precedent, and calculated to destroy all con nexion and confidence between the. agent and his principal.--(Hear, hear !)—He conjured their Lordships to weigh well the consequences of establishing such a precedent, striking at the very root of confidential agency. He did not object to the correspondence between Mr. Powell and Colonel Brown, relating to the mission of Ras telli, being produced, and referred to a Secret Committee ; but he must beg to be particularly .understood as confining his admission to the cor respondence relating to this mission of Rastelli, and to that only. For this purpose, he should prefer, that. Mr. Powell be ordered by that House to lay before a Secret Committee, extracts of the correspondence between him and Colonel Brown, relating to the object of his seridina Ras telli out of the country. He could not foresee any objection to this mode of proceeding. If their Lordships thought lit to inquire into this matter in this particular cause, ,they ought to do it in such manner that the whole . country should not be the sufferers. Lord LAl:zsoowN thought that what his Noble Friend had stated, was an argument in favour of his first motion. His Noble Friend, however, was in error, when he stated that there was no precedent for the motion then before the House. Within the last years, even within the last year, a precedent was afforded in another branch of the Legislative. The other House of Parliament, in the case of a breach of privilege, ordered that the correspondence between Mr. Grady and Mr. Carew Smith should be produced. He saw no objection that his Learned Friend could have to the course proposed ; for the general way when confidential correspondence was produced before a Secret Committee, was that one of the parties in the case appeared before that Committee and doubled clown such parts of the precis& matter of the investigation. In this manner might Mr. Powell act with reference to the Secret Commit tee, so that they might be satisfied that the ori ginal documents relative to the subject were pro duced. He entreated their Lordships not to dis miss this subject lightly, it was one of the highest importance. A mystery there was with respect to this matter ; that mystery might be dispelled by the production of the correspondence, and he hoped their Lordships would decide in favour of the motion before them for that purpose. The Earl of LivERPooL stated, that the under standing which he had on the subject of the pro duction of the correspondence was, that it was the unanimous wish of the House that the correspon dence relating to the mission of Itastelli, between Mr. Powell and Colonel Brown, should be laid before a Secret Committee of that House. But he distinctly understood that it'was those parts of any correspondence between those two G entle men relating to that precise matter, that the House desired to have laid before them. He did not wish to be a Member of the Committee, but he thought there could be no objection to the at tendance of Mr. Powell at it, for the purpose of supplying the required documents. Lord LIUDERDALE said, the words of the mo tion implied that all the correspondence should be produced, and not mere extracts.—(Cries of " No.") Lard MORTON said a few words, but they were quite inaudible below the Bar. Lord LIMERICK deprecated the idea of expos ing the confidential communications between per sons confidentially employed. There could not be a practice more dangerous ; and convinced of the danger that must inevitably attend such a disclosure, he should, with all, his power, oppose both of the motions. Lord LAUDERDALE called their Lordships' at tention to the motion before them, which was worded in such a manner as to signify the pro duction of the whole correspondence between Mr. Powell and Col. Brown. He again repeated his protest against making a precedent of so dan gerous a nature to the interests of society in general. The Marquess trf BucKINGIIAM was of opinion, that not only extracts, but the correspondence it- self, should be laid betort their tordshin ra case of such peculiar importance, I the. The LORD CHANCELTUR said, that I ct House thought proper to divide , • " sioni • VI , d $ toany Elaption tending to compel th • ha d • ifid474l cohimly catilittr, ha N o uel ) • tp tie s ' .Brown's letters ? If the House agreed to slicig principle as that contended fol', what man ru it , senses would think of answering arty letter wr ten by Mr. Powell ?—(Hear, hear!) Lord REDESDALE said, . the second mot i°ll6 . P o i peared to him to be recommending a bad mtg l i e d , doing the thing proposed in the first, and ca ' c ii lated •to destroy every chance of jtrstice• e th their Lordships did not Mean to abide 13 %4 oath of Mr. Powell they ought not to have him. 5 Earl GREY, so fa s t. from thinking the Ineasureid proposed unjust, was convinced that justice c° ll , o . not be done without the adoption of one or otu d; of them. His object, in agreeing to the atnenb, went was, to obviate as far as possible the )5 jections upon the • other side. Their Lor dsbil t would look to the case. On the 21st of Augu s t an order was issued by that House, that the wit nesse's in' this case should attend, de (lie in diel lt and the Noble Lord opposite (Liverpool) I ' d % pledged himself that the order should , be O t to effectual. . It was afterwards found necessary ce call upon one of those witnesses to give evi den ,•o upon a subject of great importance in the i nv 'ir tigation, and their Lordships found that th e agent had acted in .contempt, in defiance of af, order, and sent the witness out of the Coul l ' C ' t ‘ In the course of the decision upon this subie, a c ; it had been stated by a High Authority . in tt, c House, that the in done to her Majesty's c' ltl. e . by the departure of the witnesses was irrepar avhi How, then, if their Lordships meant to prese t , their character as the highest Tribunal in the dom, could they think of pursuing any e or o ', until they had sifted that extraordinary cir col stance to the bottom? Mr. Powell had be called to state his reasons for having sauctio lle the departure of the witness ; and, without u leale ing any disrespect whatever to that Gentleto3ll4 the explanation was by no means satisfactory . then became absolutely necessary that the c° 5 respondence should be produced., Ali that required of the Committee was, to examine OP; correspondelce, and to report such parts of it it. the House related to the mission of Ras te i V e / •: consistently with the interests of the public. would, with the view of more effectually lrrjDa r ing the lionse to an effectual a.greement till this subject, propose that Mr. Powell slw` i produce .such parts of the correspondence I'4'; tween him and Colonel Browne as related to mission of Rastelli to Milan ; and he should P e submit a second motion, that the correspondeoc.. be referred to a Secret Committee, to report ,gip; the parts of the correspondence alluded to. ' lt examination to this effect was indispensable. to .would be absurd to leave it to Mr. Powe ll a make what extracts he pleased, indeed it w° ll ,' be a complete mockery to have any thing l' r " ,, duced before the Committee but the originals' , t Lord LIVERPOOL said, if the Noble Earl 0 1 ° 1 copies of such parts of the Correspondence as r e , lated to Rastelli, he would have no objection tL the motion, but he must object to the prod° c ; tion of the originals, which might contain no tte o not relating to Rastelli. The Secret Committc would then take rfieans to have those copies cl°ll verified. Earl GREY said, he should agree to the stic, ! gestioi, as he was to obviate all ties that might be raised ' to the investigatio%, truth. The Noble Lord then moved his afne n he meat to'that effect—for the production of t- • sealed copies, and the appointment of the C° lll- : mittee. Lord LIMERICK said, he should divide III: House against the proposition, as his objec t i °ll remained unaltered. Lord MANVERS thought- the character of t, l l l House compromised, by the absence of Ras te ' ; and the circumstance that such absence W B ' satisfactorily accounted for. He would give support to :anything that was calculated to eb l i date this most mysterious transaction.,—(ll ol•) Lord "SOMERS said, that nothing could tO r e g , effectually tend to destroy the confidence lie tween agents and principals than the niotion 13,1 1 . fore the House, if carried into effect. II if not know how any man could be at ease, " r 5, were in the constant fear of having his le tte exhibited to the public. Lord MANVERS said, it was necessary , P f y Mr. Powell's character, to have the nlY ste n , cleared. Of two evils the least should be ch ie f,. and that certainly was the production of the C° respondence. to Earl HAREwoon Said he was the last rna gl ,, authorise the violation of confidence, betw ee lor principal and an agent; but under the partilo circumstances of this case, their Lordshir s ,.. ucLlo o nothing to do, but to insist upon the prod, , of the parts of the correspondence alluded ° t i l e There was in the transaction something ul ) °, 11 t he face which 'required the House should sii ri t ro , ease to the bottom. He trusted that th e mittee would not exceed the authority with wt they were invested, and was convinced t hat t he ends of justice would be best answered by motion just proposed. Lord lIARDWICKE concurred in the p ro p e• tion, that a full investigation should take P la 'be , Lord GREY contended, that the confidence ea tween principal and agent would not be vie l3 n bie by the production of these papers. The : t his Earl continued. If their Lord,hips though' t he inquiry ought not to be prosecuted, th e ? Jo" whole of these proceedings should terminal e o e stantaneously, and if their Lordships 0 1° Iv a 'edged an act of injustice had been 0 01311 : 1 t bef which they could not remedy, and into whic," i f te could not inquire, he would then move Woe mediate termination of these proceeding g ' m od' Noble Earl concluded by moving, as a nB : ute ment, or rather an addition to the Irni n et . to tion, that the Secret Committee have PoW exam; TLS The , ord