The Sun. — London, England, 1820-10-09 00:00:00

PARLIAM ENT. HOUSE OF LORDS-SATURDAY. TIIE Q,ITEENS DEFENCE. [Contination ty . S'aiurduy's Proceedings.] Earl GREY thought the more desirable /course would be to adopt the suggestion of the Noble- Lord en die woolsack; namely, that of calling itt:Maknci, ;Ind putting to , him such questions Ls. 32.tigLt. justify the course of examination pro pcleti; . . •- vrapoi or. saki he had no ebje..rtion "to tbe actin"; ttpun the. ssto;ffestion Nutted tr.), Q.ati wal the iCoore dispoccti ogree »o 11, lest . e vpiaion of the House sltoulti be in- conflict that to which the JudgPs 'night cei - rre--- Fiat hittiwif fly!. itlCjitit'd to atiopt the opiaioq t,e thoui , ht t eaitt-itt be anticipb2tl the J.vAges woltld deliver. • `ll be Cf.):lll , A-1 were then called in and asl:ed .tb_•er they bad objection tite witaiosfi beipz re-m4allt-41 ? t tie Afargwis o LA.NSDCPMN aciral4sce-1 in the icisti , -.c-.of the rennnrk.s of hits and E.co•rt Earl 1 . ./f r.), r.t 33 F. tk .1. E. c n teaaded that th& gvef-t. (31.01t_stet. to toe put. , rCte fiorm (;tiAvcEts...o3L- 2 --" I . am noW t 4 ask sth,e c'upset 171) wltet..4er they objec.t. - EG - A2aj(3c-ci Joti:4 , 4 calCied, and haviri; the questioa put to . • 'Thq Ar Far.VEVIGENF-11A7,---' " E feel placed in air at4ktcurd sititatira, &het i win tell yoas Lord.- ships why : Vow' Lortisilips rec•ollect that wa i s Ciao,- times cross-i-carniaed. Your Losd s bips i i tvcollect . .au option lyeirT given to Frit , itds On the otht-r 'side., whether Cyr Rot.. they would have furtlir tros's-exaraba 7 ;it2l7 of the witreoi.s., or , wb.-ethr they would " have tyefare tire other part of the. 43i11,:oras closcd. 3.1 y Lords, they bail that option, und they prr- L':ri.ed the delay whic.34 nyi l - . place, in order to prepate their cw;e._ I say, if they tneant to par tue this tootle of examination, knowiqg as 'they (10 the law ,on the subject, it was their duty to baim.cf)Te to your hortkhips herore they opened tbeir ease (srippe-ing your Lordshiv wirou'el hare i4vlged them trith that.) in order that those in support of the Dill have vl opportunity of aco.tiering and conarnentipg ripen it. My if tWis iS. tione in this caie, it must he done with r, - ; sl.ect to all the witnesel examined at .eardsbips' bar- ft is said., that at the time the wrr not aware of this circ. urastance. Why, Who .mrar,the witne called . 7 " The Loan Cil A KGE5.4.0 1 1t-'- 44 do it appre-‘ behd . that the House means -that that should be nrf.r,uai upon. But the question is, whether you .mss:?thx.ido what you are trerfectly authorised -to do, withhold your rorilenti - " by ..k.TroilyEy-G-cyFRAL—" }Fora the situa ti.ort is -which .here stfand, and after what is posed., I'do not feel au.thorise4 to .give my con .your. Lordship CVltlunkni use to do it, do it, but otherwise. I cannot give Lll r consent." The Learned. Judges here retired to confider the questions put to them, 241.- 11aouGliAm- 4, ‘ in the mean time, my if your Lordsl-ips pleas, we will call an othe,r; witnesi%." CHAILLOUTE LaNnz.%l" then ilpprouched to Vlejivrit of the sat. Mr. BnouGnA)4.—My Lorti4 Lady- Okarlotte Lindsay- has come to il)form your Lordships of restlt a her research. -The 1,0111) Cll.lVcELLorz..—Does any person 14,'Al to put any question relative to timf letter? Mr, Bit ur, I).‘ :have none. my Lord. The Loan CLEts - cm.ton.—Q. la , s yinir Lady silip searched for that letter ?—A. t leave Have you been at le to find. it ?---No, I have L•ot. fPia believe it not to be in s . eiistence ?—I be , Lew!: it not to by in existence ; I have it not. Hare vett reason to believe' that it could tie iii the fzinto j tly of any ether per.sou than yoarself ? I hat , e not. Examined bs Lord LAUDERDALE. 'Q. Can Lady Charlotte Lindsay state the grounds of her brother's . request as contained i n that letter ? Mr; BRO UGHAM objeetett to the answering of the ;question, as the Noble Lord was now going to examine the contents of that letter.---o.t this time there was a considerable noise in the Itiotzte" .) The Loan CHANCELLOR rose and said, will the 'Noble and Learned Lards now in the House giviine their attention ? I understand Lady CharleftteLindlary to have said.: that she left the sertice of the Queen ;inconsequence Of a rec.:nest frein her brother contained in a letter. Now. I conceive that to the extent of asking Lady aarlotte what were the terms in which the re qqesiwas made, a question may be asked ; whe ther-it can' be allowed - to go farther (and in some views it possibly way) I don't.limow. Mr. Bitoccium—l beg pardon ; I really oils.- understoOdAite question. Lori L:kunEnoAts.-----it is a question that caanot !be refused to be answered. have aright to examine her Ladyship as to the contents of that letter., Can plur Ladyship state the grounds of your brother's request in that lettert—l have no dis tinct recollection of anything which the letter contained, except the request and laBvice of my brother,. that I showld not remain in the service of the Princess, and some pecuniary arrangements, .which were to take place. _ Does.youi Ladyship rece.ilect when the advice was given, what was the reason assigned ?—I do not recollect what in that letter was the reason assigned:, have some indistinct idea that the reports, before alluded to, must have been men tioned,in that letter; but I cannot say positively.. Whaf,reports?—The reports I mentioned in answer to the cruestim of a Noble tsord yester day, of an unpleasant and degrading nature, that had ingLuenced ine.in resigning ray.situation. Lord they reports of a co trary description of conduct in her :Voje* 6ty to that.which- you have sworn'—They were. hi er Ladyship withdrew. The Hock now suggested that •Mr. Brougham might, during the absence of the Judges, call ano ther witnes, if he were prepared. (7,111 r; Bi;ouGnAm-LlCettainly ; my LOrd. Call John Whitcomb. _ John, ll 7 bitcomb baying - arrived at the Bar, Lord LIUDERDALE objected to the examina tion of a witness durirsg the -absence or the Judges, upon the principle-that if any objection were taken to a question pat, the J urges might to be present to hear the arguments for and against that ob- jection. , • Lord HOLLAND 'thought that it was only, , ne ces.sary for the question to be rut its a clear manner to the Julgo, its ortier to enable them to r ums tl n n", r He did not think it was at all requisite for the Judges either to lwar theevi den ce on H the arguments which might be ad dressed io the ouse. • Lord Livnapoon would not ohject to the course proposed, but he considered, in order that the Jur!ges. might perfectly understand the dis_ inned point., it was absolutely neeesssry they should hear the arguments of:Coonsel, and if a n y ditilrniny nf this sort arose, he . shOuld: certainly move to wait their return. .After some 'farther observations from /riord.- 4.lAnx.sns...hy, . Lord EastitxE, and Lord L.10.13E•1t a).4.LE, in explanation, ;he witness was sworn and examined. JOns; AViliTcosin eiatnined.' Q. In what situation of life arc you .?--- 2 A . I am valet to' the 'Horn Keel Craven. Dow long hove you been in that •situation ? Upwards of six yearS, not seven: Were you is his service at the time the Prin. c•o!. , :s of Wales , was at Na was. • Do you recollect.the first night of your arrival at Naples in ultatnrOotn Bergami slept :— . .No; I do net. . , • Hase, yob. ever seen the room in which he slept ?—,Not the first bed-room ; I neVer was in that. Do you recollect the second room in which he lct}al—Perfectly well. Was there a passage communicating frob that room tO the room in which the Princess slept 1— There was a passage from one end of the hon - se to the other, conamitnicating at the, further end wi:h a terrace. 13*.. , rgarni slept towards the ter-. race ;, the Princess slept in the front of the house. Do you recollect the room in wthiclin yoUng Austin sleptl , --ffes, it was neat to that of the Prioress. 00 slept " in the room next to Austin's 1— Ifieronymus.\ , What situation In the Princess's 'Service 41 Hieronymus hold at that time ?--=The situation a a page, I understood. Do you remember where Dr. Holland slept ? In the next room to Hieronymus. --- . Are the three rooms last mentioned all on the Side of passage I—Yes: . Was there a door from Hieronymus's room into the passage 1--Yes. Where did the door of Dr. Holland's room. open allot her : passage. Was Dr, Holland's room at the corner of the two passages of which you speakl—lt was. Did the door of Dr. Holland's room open in the passage nearly opposite .to Bergarni's door? --flergarni's room did not open into that passage. Do you remember where Mademoiselle Du mont siept?—ln a room over Dr. Holland. She slept in a room nearly over that ,of Dr. Holland ?—Yes. Have yonever been in ,that room ?—Yes, fre gnently. Ifave yon been in that room by night as well as by day I—Yes; late as well as early. At the time you have been so; "in that room of Dumont, were you with her alone ?--Yes. Whet Carried yott there ?—She invited me to go there. When you have been in the room, has any per son been there besides yourself and Dumont ? s - Sonkietimes Annette, another servant, has been there, but not long ; she went away when she saw me there. Have you ever been aione.with Dumont in her chamber?—Very frequently. At the time you have been alone with her, has the doer been locked or not I—lt has been locked. The SOI4CITOR-GENER L said it was impOssi ble not to object. to this course of evidence; it was manifest the purpose which the Learned Counsel had in view. Mr. Dr..nAN.—" My Lords, we do not wish to press it further. The LORD On 'iCEI.;I.OII.—c 4 You have pressed it as far as you could."—(Laughter.) ' The latter question and answer were then ex punged from the short-hand writer's notes, Do you recollect a masked ball at Naples, given by the Queen ?—I do. Were the servants of ,her Royal Highness in character I—Not all of them. How were' 'they dresshd I—Sicard Bergarni, and Hieronymus in thelurkigh fashion. In the early part of the evening I—Yes. Did they afterwards change them for plain dresses I—LSicard and Hieronymus went away. I did not see them afterwards.: Did you , see' Bergami afterwards ?—Yes, in plain clothes, walking.about•with me. Were there any refreshments handed about ? —Yes. Was he assisting the other , servants I—Yes,. once or twice, carrying refreshments. IYere yott at Naples the whole time the Prin eess was there I—Yes. Hove did Bergaini conduct himself towards her :—The same as the rest of the servants. Cross'-examined. Q. Did you live in the bOuse Yes, for a few days, How many ?—Throe or four. You then - liaed at Mr. Craven's lodgings ?-2 Yes. ' . Yon Lave dc.ictibed a passage, *as it as you have stated Dr. lioliand room was in the corner,?--Yes. Was the,:re.uot4 pu t s loge leadiug - from the din ing-roorn by Dr, HO 's into the, pasiage?— , Yes. IVfs froliautl'srOoni ou the right ?—Yes. nia,Nt'rok - n tife ilk ;va:i c the ropoi, of .Dr. on' the zighttNiia thet/e a:brhh.ll room of f the ter,: occupied think not. Bey . ond that and nett to it did Bergami sleep ? Yes. Was there not a door leading from Bergami's room into the first passage ?•-1. ant not certain. .You.say lkrgtuui's room was at the end of the imSsage; could you go into his room from that passage ?=-Ves, by door. Ber,,garni's mom was toward the garden, was it a corner room, or, was there a cabinet beyond it? tlo not remember any cabinet. Was thre'not, in tho passage near the stairs Avhich ledto burnout's room, a door ?—There Iva.% one leading-to the room of Hieronymus. N4ttit - . 4 .le;'e not another ant not Sure. Was there not a second passage leading from flergarni's room to that of the Princess ----There was a sort of inner room or pa , ,aize. %Vgs there not, near the root of the staircase, a dog!. 'ending to this communication ?—I think there •Was. - Lord ERSKItit here referred to Dumont's testi mony • m hen she swore she always slept alone. His object was' to ascertain, whether the witness, NV hi trorni) ; ever was in het room during the night Ivhile she was in bed ? " This question was objected to by the Soraci- Tou-GEEuAr., who said, that Dumont could not be criminated ley any indirect question, if she could not bedirectly criminated. • Lord ERSinNE maintained that the question was perfectly legal, and referred to his own practice in a case bdfore Lord Ellenborough, when he pia such a 'question, which was objected to, and he then tendered a bill, of exception to the decision of the Lord Chief Justice. Ile (Lord Erskine) had subsequently put, and had heard other C(*.nsel put similar questions, with out interruption. His Lordship said, every judge or Cotknsel had a right to put such questions, but it was perfectly open to the 'witness to refuse an answet to any questions tending to criminate her self ; but here the witness, Dumont, had an swered the' question, " Did you:: sleep alone" in the aflirmqtive, and therefore it was competent to ask any question tending to impeach her tes timony. The Lo4in CHATELi.OIt said, if the question had been asked, and . an answer had been refused, then no evidence Could . be called 'to. criminate the witness upon that point. if the questions put to .Dumont were put for the ptirposeof Making her acknowledge that she - had' been guilty of an of fence, and denied it, they could not call Wit : nesse& to prove that she had conunitted it. Lod EImSKIN'E said, Dumont .had not refused to answer the question ; but she had sworn that she had slept alone, and he wished to know whe ther she had slept alone. Lord LIVERPOOL said Dumont might reconcile her testimony by saying " I did certainly admit this man to a criminal intercourse, but I did not sleep with him." - Lord ERRSKINE persisted in his right to pia the question. - Lord LAUDERDALE objected to The question. The LOIN) CHANCELLOR said that the ques tions put to Dumont had been for the purpose of criminatitig her, and as she had denied the offence imputed to her, they would not adinit of the question now put by Lord Erskine. The Marquess of BucKIN . GnAm said a few ords. Examination continuer!. Lord IA AUDERDILE.-Q. Where did you sleep at Naples ?—A. In the house. In the room next to Mr. Craven ?—Every night. You did not go to any other bed during the night ?—No, but I did not go to bed before twelve or one o'clock. Lord EasKrNE.—You afterwards went into lodgings ; did you continue to sleep there ?—Yes, I never slept in the Queen's house after. Lord L kunranALE.—You have been six 3 t•ars with Mr. Craven ?—Yes. Where did you first enter his service ?—At Hammersmith. Had you been abroad before ?—No. What was the month of the year in which you entered his service ?—I do not recollect, but it was six years ago. Did you speak - . French and Italian wlipn you first entered his service I—French, bat not Ita lian. Were you at Pesaro a year ago'?—Fifteen months: since. Do you recollect Bergami coming there to Mr. Craven ?—Yes. Did he shake hands with sou like an old friend ?—He pressed my - hand as he went up stairs. By a PEER.--Did you ever go into Dumont's bed-room after you went into lodgings at Na ples f,--Yes. Have you seen any body else in her bed-room at any.time f—Only Annette,.to the best of my recollection. The Judges here returned, and the Lord Chief Justice Abbott delivei•ed their unanimous opinion in the negative upon the question which had been submitted to them. He would take the liberty' of stating to their Lordships, in addition to what had been agreed to by his Learned Colleagues, that upon any grave and serious case, if the Counsel had omitted in his cross-examination to lay a proper foundation for his defence, it was sometimes the practice, and it was much better at certain times and seasons, to break in upon the ordinary regulations. Ilford LivmtrooL thought that if . the Counsel for the defence deemed it necessary to their case, this' was an instance in which such an allowance shoilld be granted. 'The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that in grave ; t t 3713 11.1portant t':asi it was perfectly - coro ; 1 with the practice of the Courts below -t° re witnesses to the Bar flir the purpose of mining to particular points which might apl*, desirable. s The questions, hatveerxaccordiug strict form, mast he put through ti e'Court: It was 4 , !lkreed tliVNajocai skould be. broag: ll \ to tile Bar. of LIVERPOOL suggeSted, that as it was probable the iv,itness_wotilii be S OiIIC Co ll° before he appeared at •the Bar, CounSel had bC t.. ter be directed to go on with some other buss. 'less. ab IVO C/ Mr. BkouGuam stated, that he was infor by'his Learned F; end opposite that the Witn es ' would be then-. in a few 'minutes. The Laitn Cn.t.NcELLon--Very well ; t ll ‘ 6 - your own Cilirs , ,?. 0 Th 6 eodore 31 tipeci, at this momen;. to , liar when the following examination took Pl ac '': Mr. BIIOUGILIM suggesting the questions to B - Court THEODORE . MAJOCCI, •re-examined• Q. Do you recollect having - seen William Ca r ; rington, the valet of Sir W. Gell, at Ituccinelli' —A. I do not remember that. Do you recollect • having seen Sir W. G'") , En lisle servant near Rome, any where ?—Th i ' do not remember. • [This answer was received with lam - Alter 1)1 ( ,the, strangers heion , the Bar, with loud Cries 41 " Order!" on the part of the House.] 'Do you remember ever having seen Sir. V" e Ham Cell's servant any where seen him, 1 think, at itome, but not at RAIL: a. nelli. Did you ever tell any one that: Baron OtnpW i employed some one to get the keys of her It°Y, g . e Highness, in order to have others made ► them not. . Did von ever tell to Sir William Gell's seriak lt any thing, of that kind, or to the like effeCt 1 have never spoken of this. Did you ever tell him that a person had b ee ° employed for the aforesaid purpose by Oniptel Arid that he confessed it to the police, a nd 115 _, A been l discharged in consequence ?-1 never anyssuch conversation. Did you ever tell any one that if the Prin os4 had not ordered her servants to take no noti c , e ( of the. conduct Ompteda, ypu would your e ' have killed him like a dog ?--I never said such a thing these things are quite new to un''. Did you ever speak of the villAitm and ingrnt l i f trade of Baron Ompteda, 'after having so 10 1 l eaten and drank in the house, and c om plain . ° his having brought suspicion on the servants :. Never:' ',: ;41 Did you ever talk of Ompteda to the Engl'' servant of Sir W. Gell by name nev°`' Question repeatcd?—•Never, Mr. Oaoutarim said he had nothing m ore t: ask of the witness, and asked if lie m ight 1) , allowed to recall William Carrington for t` jt ' purpose of negativing the testimony they (i just heard. The Loan CIIANCF.LLOR. allowed that o' l 'l tain occasions mi . ght arise to warrant such a Pr ° ‘ ceediug, but it was very irregular. Mr. Bitolion.tm was anxious to confront Tv' jocci with William Carrington, and in order to prevent him Prow Weniptinglo shelter hig's e under the plea that he had said thee things to some one, though he did not know who. The, Lo RD CHANCELLOR.— You had better as him ik - he never said them to any one. Lord: Llyurtroor: . begged the HOUse to coo e . der how far they were going in admitting t'' witness to be, called back for the purpose of , re' examination. lie was perfectly willing that sli e e ' cial . permission should on special grounds granted, bu't ,he hoped the flouse would I°'" at such a license with peculiar jealousy. ' • ,•th Lord LAUDERDALE thought the question, ~, respect to the evidence of Majocci, ought to looked at in a differek point of view frail' and which had hitherto been suggested. Their bor t ci ships must have remarked, that when illaj °c . was questioned as to his recollection of the 19 ; '' ron Ompteda, he. said he remembered a Gero''',. Baron but that he could not recollect the oa rjj ,, c ,, Now he should wish him to be asked, if he r ` le membered holding a conversation with an Y ° l f relative to a certain German Baron:4 lle hear!) Majocci was accordingly called back, and ag 3i° questiOned by Mr. Brougham. Sir Did You ever have , any.conversation with William Gell's English servant, respecting 1- 1; conduct of that German Baron of an extravae name:—Never. I never si - Joke of him. Mr. nRHUGHI,SI said, if it was their Lordshirt wish that any more general quer,tions be put' r, the purpose of she tin that the witness o '4 held such conversation with any body, it cou tlot be put ; but that her Majesty's Counsel did desire to examine any fuether. t he No further question being suggested bj House, the" Lordships won Mr. 110 UGIIIM begi.,re, their iordship:. nave William. Carritl,ton recalled. 7 1 ' Wm. CA It RI NG T 0 N (') /mined h j Dr'. - -ova Q. What did you hear Majocci say respec t the Baron Ompteda- ?L.-A. He told me that be , employed the chambermaid to procure th e e oe s of her Itoyal in order to have false `made. Cross . 7 examincd ilw A T olt NEY-GENET t G Q. Where 'was tltiz. supposed conversation `t Majocci held ?—A. Do..va in the court-yard. Where Who was present E--Ile was by .himself• ow came you to meet him then I°s H accident. ofi g What was he doing at that time ?--- -- Il e t b e tt preparing the Queen's carriage. She Wa s going to'Rome. Did your master go to Roi that day • went there. t o' s How long was it before they set off, tiT, bt be communication was made to you ?----1t 111 " . '• an hour or an hour and a hrlf. lioit';• n' Oh! it might be an hour or an hour and but•bow long was it ?--About an hour. L ! wrts. 1\ *I, ‘,a } (1j 0 ` l 'Pte; , : 1 bl ti 44 I i()t CE tic) Zit 0 'IA 41 Ir 4, 1 ik ° tn 'llv. {l l4 '