The Sun. — London, England, 1842-04-09 00:00:00

tb . • to ° !PI 10 - t thy" ;tif heY that the renewal of a tax, inquisitorial in its clia -lin its pressure, and which has hitherto been the financial reserve of the nation in time of war, for by public necessity, and is therefore not advise Noble Lord resumed his seat amidst loud and Oheers.) IsiCh.LLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was bear the Noble Lord speak without pleasure. He sr of the Exchequer) had always listened to the with interest and admiration, but never more the delivery of the speech he had just concluded ; , were wanted to ccnfirm him (the Chancellor tier) in approbation of the course pursued by the if which he was a member, he could find it in id the reso l ut i on o f t h e Noble Lord.—( Hear, ing now heard all that could be urged against the Government, or in support of the alternative them, he (the Right Hon. Gentleman) was . that the House and the country would be more satisfied with the measure which the Nobl e Lord hid e k res , t ed by his resolution. The Noble Lord said the Go. ( I) ,` tnok too gloomy a view of the situation of the country. i kgit e Tett lion. Gentleman) begged not to be included Its ofe u°se gloomy speculators. He never uttered senti ttes `"sliorrdency or alarm, or of distrust of the capabilities 4 t t r gtes of the country ; but he maintained that it was ttt at we should precisely know our difficulties in order kite, 'night properl y endeavour to surmouhem. Nu .however abun :ant its resources, could ho free from ta u at at periods of difficulty, and that with which we had .i k e Nee, though furnishing much cause for anxiety, in ee ltito grou n d s f r t h e hi g h est conso l at i on . Th e N o bl e t,, 4 '"u our emergencies did not justify the measure of the tegelintelat. Whatever might he the Noble Lord's idea of an N 4, his speech fully justi fi ed the course he condemned. ke el - 'e Lord alluded to two successive years of deficient !btk e 2 ;,,the defi c i ency i n t h e fi rst b e i ng 2,400,00 W., i n th e ")° 0 •000/. Though the Noble Lord went no further, ei c ... ° ll, olat ory to hear him attaching a grave importance to is envy which he would not in 1839, when there being a 1 ,800,C00L, he (the Right HonouNble Gentle eter°Jatsed ased resolution that it was imprudent to reduce h of revenue, and the Noble Lord voted against it. 'lie rt d it theref o r e , as a s t e p i n t h e wa y o f i m p rove me n t on 41 4 of those with whom the Noble Lord is connected, to find ~le a dmitted the existence of a continued deficiency to a t i e; ° 'nits and that circumstance called for an energetic 't of n i tre measure to equalise the reeenne and the expernii 'o4 Lti tountry.—( Hear, hear.) The deficiency in the i : , ti kt e i :ntti not arisen in the present. year, or in the year pre- Oa S a t Was the result of eoatinued deficiencies during the 'tvira,,., without any effort, having been made to meet t H e believed th.t if the present state of things were et e , ° continue it would finally paralyse the energies of the qt The The contemplated deficiency for the present year N o s," hY the Noble Lord at 2,500,000/. ; but he would ask , r 4 Lord, as a great statesman, and as one w h o l oo k e d for t ° rule the destinie s of this count r y, to look a little to , u 'rei and to consid e r what the sacrifices were which 'll itl e V tr y might hereafter be called upon to ma ke. , the Lord Lad a d m i tte d t h a t th e - prese tt Government, 'ale,f came into' office, had 'found a deficienety,•and that . t ' L etie still continued, but he forgot to add that, inde lad„ktptf this actual evil, they had a prospect of incurring 'atonal expenses in future. The Government had to e`' ti le state of our affairs in China, and they could not kat : • oer reiateans with that country might involve us e t ' great additional outlay, however sincerely they is ee h °Pe to •be enabled to avoid it. But, su , to this evil, the Noble Lord stated that the manufactures of the country were in a most depressed 1.4°, end that they were called upon to adopt every means , 4111,Y t ,v , er for the purpo s e of affording to tho s e int e rests of e t of ti ; t ef- Why, what was the principle on which the mese 7i14 v e Government had proceeded? Had it not been to te os Lie utmost of their power relief to the trading and ma• , 6,,, n 1 interests of the country ; ,to amending those laws lof f9r lolated the importation of foreign earn and other arti takielgn produce ; and in deing this to p:ovideahe means 'ng the necessity of incurring a fresh deficiency, whilst il,kraltelieo that which had hitherto existed?—(Cries of hear.") The Noble Lord stated, that what- s. Xi' l L ght be the necessities of the country, they were ,th h as to justify the imposition of an income tax, upon beatowed all those u s ual epithets Of opprobrium to It4 e rY tax was 'more or less subject. He stated that it tee which should be imposed only in time of war, or of : , 4: ll4 ,,ergency, and reminded the house that in the year ‘to t .': t ritt found it necessary to resort to it, in order to pro td6ad`ae increasing necessities of the country. If the Noble tryreao the speech of Mr. Pitt on that occasion, he at e found that it was not. merely because the e ' a ' r was engaged in war, but also because it was 1,1 to maintain the public credit that he had :Oa e so large an income tax for the public.—( Hear. ) o tot ° , 4 that ground that Mr. Fitt urged. in the House the i rOi t ,l i n the first place, of the triple assessment which was lies%eatiou of the income tax, and ultimately of the income teti l • It was useless to say .that Mr. Pitt intended the in for a, source of revenue to b e had recourse to in time of tt the c on t rar y, M r . Pitt pl e d ge d th e p roper t y t ax f or r6,..."`Stnerat in times of peace of the loans created in time t.lli.So far was Mr. Pitt f r om e xpres s i n g an y o pi n i on tteteiticome tax ought never to be had recourse to except i~ t °l* war, that he expressly stated that it was a .t 'night be had recourse to elicnever any emergency at,44arise rendering it necessary for the purpose co stlt e the public credit end sustaining the revenue • kii i .tinintry, It wa s p er f ec tly t rue t h a t i n 1803 I,,'lttletrin had thought it expedient to repeal the tax ; i t tallington did not leave the loans which had been tinprovided for. 111 r .. Addington did not incur • out maki n g any prov ision for their ultimate redemp szt,r e repeal e d the ye operty tax, it was true, but he im ;lt4 of other taxes in lieu of it. He imposed a ° I . two millions—he imposed additional import duties. , - ` n ° l -Int of one millio n — a nd o ne mi lli on a ddi t i ona l o f a s- R tt e - " , and thus he iealised the fo it millions of property tax. Ate e -P edless now to examine whether the conduct of Mr Ad. a kt " o i n doing was expedis nt or not. %V hen the Noble Lord ePokes` 55 in in the assessed taxs, as net pressing gee d mit" alasses of the community, it shoul I be recollected rQ e thi. • amount collected from the the assessed taxes, by far ~,S,°,r part 'was' collected from those very classes. Mr. • "s e , ° ti stated in proposing the assessed taxes at the time he the p r operty " tax, that he proposed . them for vhf rose of taxing the. journeymen who were em )titt by shopkeepers, and who acted as ser e 4 to 2r the respect i ve proprietors of those shops. t;!tsea- brolte . out aeain the next year, and the tax was re- Oo tt i l ancl ott the pease it was again repealed. He (the or of the Exchequer) was one of those who at the e r N en t e ''i against the repeal, being convincul that if it had 11-°tinued for a short time, other imposts which pressed % trade and inanufactures would have h en relaxed ; red if that sacrifice had been ma,le, it would have pro ;',l( t n'iMensuree prosperity.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble , v'ti:4 l uo. had just addressed the House called in him (the jia'e'r of the Exclecieer ) to give authority to the opinio n . N aw e's Ilrough am who took a leading part in - procuring the the tax,' The Noble Lord (John Russell) called on Rive that au th or i ty to the opi n ion of Lard Brougham, glue Tha t • toe Noble and Learned Lord had stated in an intro s °di ou some which he published, that it was a tax !Icelj e glt. to be reserved for a time of war. But he (the tea th e of the Exchequer) thought that, ;n arguing dha re el of the tax at the time referred to, Lord of % In a, ' a id a great stress upon this p oint, that the Govern ae."44,eday was keeping up a wresta . blis . hment in time of a t tle t, this-tax was kept up to maintain them ; and so G ove aj this opinion in the House and in the country , that It:tere tt "'tient was obliged to refer the estimates to a Select 411) Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord (So rd John kt't alto referred to Lord Althorp's declaration in 1834, Osk e - „ w as unwilling to propose an income tax in time a nd called on them (the Ministers) to be governed i tt r ,decl arrat i on. But he (the Chancellor of the Ex ).had a r i g h t to c l a i m t h e support o f L or d Ol e " , and if his conduct was to be introduced • c ,"edent, it was a . precedent in favour of the measure (i t toeileider a ti on . What was the state of things on that cm -114 44, he repeal of the malt tax was proposed, and it was on 11 1 top e e , of the malt duty that the debate with respect to er eo a ' of the property tax took place. —( Hear, hear.)— t lt a es r nnt was 2 , 500,0001., and what did Lord A:thorp say? kjo e of the Exchequer at a time when it was the ' 4( 7 4 have a surplus in the coffers of the Treasury. He telvi t o,t of 1,500,000/. at the close of the financial year, t re tte tti . t h at sum it was proposed to do away with 2,500,0001. a t '4, 4l , • The whole sum Government would lose would be th 41 4, I ' to meet which they• bad 1,500,0001., so that had g! t tea e -4 re been effected, the consequence would be that at e i ,4 ed i t year there would be a deficiency of 2,500,000/. Q ‘ , 4 orls found himself in a situation in which the pre timtfisie e rnment were left by their predecessors—tbat is, with n eY of 0 500 000/ and.what was the language of Lord tM~is i ti t h!ni " lie s aid if the measure were carried, tk,Pos e a risible for him to effect the re d uc ti o n o f t a x a ti on te tte n the House unless by the imposition of a property V 4, e " ae the House may now adopt. lie said that with 1 11 1iloiency as 2,500,000/., he must resort to a property e a e r.) And he had the alternative of those sources of . I , ‘T woich were point e d o ut t o th e a tt ent i on o f th e H ouse t': O lt °hie Lord ; and he said th a t a t a ti me w h en th ere s e tol h a g growing deficiency of six or • seven years. He : i tnself i n suc h a position with 2,500,000/. deti lt"al et a.t he mu s t either abandon the propcsition of a n ll tie e 2, l2 tax, or impose a property tax.—( Hear, hear.) Ni t ere could be any strong precedent derived front the kq, lt il ill of the individual, it war that in a profound peace, in ! e r e was not, as the Noble Lord admitted, such a pre.- " 4 , the present occasion, Lord Althorp, in his capacity "144 Z the Exchequer, thought it his duty to propose a te; -"'" as the means of keeping up the revenue. It was . t l 7te r :' ° rtatice to maintain the credit of the country. It is Y t to watch carefully a system of l o a ns during peace. Its„tlip ei necessary instruments in war, because then trade "i and there are additional burdens on the , t ' k k k t c'e' t h bn t in war loans are contracted with a moral certainty net at return of peace the resources of the country would i e °, ofL'iberty to meet them. But when loins were taken in Vl,, a te, they must look forward to war with the certainty tteY lei e t neans would be crippled when that time arrived. .cm/r„ " been taut t-d with taking this plan out of the Of the State , this precious weapon in time of peace. e l 7. r ,nng to take this weapon out of the armoury of the 111 was most effective in time of war, what should li k Yit ers the Government that reset ted in a time ot peace to I Q s of":! loans, which of all others was best adapted to a tk 'to th 'r• But what were the objections of the Noble 14t ou kh e r ' income tax ? lie first says that by it we impose a 4 l e t t . te " i node. He thought that they owed this objection i lt ion in which the last election placed him as the !o tte 'NeV ir the City of London. He perfectly agreed with Iti tti N I.ord that to impose a tax on the funds t oe t' extremely injurious.--( Hear, hear.) But the tle` t t ofp al bore upon funded, as well as on every other "tr:' ) Per , y end was not, therefore, liable tothe objections ise e t r te - e u rged ' in 1831, when a tax on stock was proposed 'h s Ti t"narne of a transfer duty, and which was even sup tits etref . ;_ne Noble Lord, now so tenderly anxious on behalf of a ril s eer nolder. The Noble Lord said, if we taxed the funds I \ 'tete l ei ntrits would fly from the Exchange of London, d. O h k es t4. and tithe: towns, whose credit was unfettered 11, - : ° ‘''s one fact was better than a thousand arguments. te,‘th eti ~twoome t ax was propose d, th e f un d s w ere atot--the %%tile ` i te asure had been discussed, and scrutinized all ke k e ie s.) %, ° Qntry, :hey were above 90.—( Hear, and i t, ,ak ;6; 4 Noble Lord said the tax was miequal —sho t s ee ° coe„"‘ y;as not. He said, you might raise the money by t Yirilre — r i' t but would that tax press equally on all classes ? Qt e lcoe,"° him that no tax would operate more equally that t ' i t t ke r Ain e d t a; the inequality of which had been so much s lOsl i ttiO te o fs But the Noble Lord said that the tax was o! ' , fe t eat ' , character. Now he ( Air. Goulburn ) did not `ti, : !i n order to ascertasn the amount which different in- N e b ktr es ° ,l ll d nay, it would be necessary to make inquiries o: I,:,ti e L e as t o ' ln g nature, which it would be impossible upon all tptie e 'l to e lv °itt- Rut he hoped he should take every pre. ,tsiti e ij' t eaent the affairs of men engaged in trade from i e 'lr ee lect w se tt to their detriment to persons in th eir vieinity. ke'e s tits eri ,°,ted be to give every facility to part ies to make 1 14 ; etli 'flout having recourse to anyundue disclosure of thee I t Wit T v is tt . h ey Wit hout en' ering into the details of the measure he tie s t otis ° .uld be enabled so to frame it as to obviate many of the thj'es, e upon that head to former income taxes. Th t e e :na.le ee nad stated that the late Government would have 11 1 ,?lit equalise the expenditure and the revenue of f i ‘ei e tht t it their ficancial measures had been adopted; ann 4 e tr h e tn . Gentleman the late Chancellor of the Ex etsti ollee t et'mated the increase of revenue which ironic , rft °lttie"ed at t 1 'OO OM What would have been the result thei% . , t h o ' f the Right Hon. Coot:tertian opposite? ` the end of the year they would have found them. R onse ti nublie Le ' "ed as ti e tual utiegual l wes ( . lel, e klied fo r roP" t .- (The „, w it/0 chee r t'Lhever, 'te CHAN( have bee: se to hi f ll th Ch kneeor a Dns a ) laac Ito 'Ara 'yr t hi s 11 0. 0 7r) kris g there 0 klything rable to '" eEzeheliu f real P r ! ;_eNzent, of 1 P r " Teeth 7so na a Anc , quer, e . ., ° liavin E Althot:j , t ire of the nce '‘'i befor e v c ony' ;acv it stl l 'ee„,_ THE SUN, LONDON, SATUR selves with a deficiency of 800,0001., with a prospect of an increased deficiency at the end of the ensuing year from those causes to which he had alluded. The Noble Lord had stated several means of supplying this deficiency. The first resource to which he referred was a tax upon the succession to real pro perty. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had often seen reference to that subject, but he could not help thinking that those persons who spoke upon it were greatly mistaken in their views. There appeared to be a very general opinion that no thing but personal property paid legacy duty. There could not be a greater fallacy. Legacy duty was. paid to a large amount in the shape of charges upon real property.--(Hear. ) A very large proportion of the legacy du y at present. received was in fact derived from charges upon land. Another error was the supposition that all personal property paid legacy duty. There were many cases in which personal property might be settled in the same way as landed property itself. If, for instance, a man who had 500,000/. in the funds, married, and had his marriage settlement made in the ordinary ray in which settlements were made tf landed property, that property devolved upon the per s on w h o succ e e d e d t o it as exempt from legacy duty as any real estate whatever. The property which would be affected by the contemplated alteration was chiefly personal property of the value of 501., 100/.. or `2OO/. a-year ; and he asked the House whether in a time of general difficulty and embarrassment that was a desirable object.—( Hear, hear. ) He might state with a view to show by approximation, which was all that could be done, what was the proportion of real and personal property which at present paid the legacy duty ; he had eve in his possession by which he could show that a large proportion of the legacy duty had arisen from charges upon real property as contradistinguished from personal. He was afraid he had tired the llouse.—( Hear, hear.) It would he in the recollection of the House that, in 1796, Mr. Pitt introduced two measures one of which was to make lintled property, passing by devise, subject to a cuty ; and the other was to impose a similar taxation upon the legacy of rersonal property. In that Act, it was proposed to except settled pro perty, That Act was rejected, but the Act for imposing legacy duty on personal property was passed. In 1805, Mr. Pitt, not deterred by this rejection, again proposed a legacy duty on charges upon land ; and the proportion of the burl n of this sax, borne by charges on land to that borne by personal pro-' perty might be calculated from the fact, that in the six years preceding 1805, the duty paid on personal property alone was 5,100,0001. ; but, in the six years following, the amount de rived bore the duty on both personal and landed, was 8,860,0001. Now, deducting the former from the letter sum would leave 3,760,000/. as the amount paid by the land He thought it right to show, in the first instance, that those who declared that this present legal duty did rot apply to land were in error, and he hoped that he had satisfactorily shown that there was good reason for not resorting to those means of deriving an amount of rerenuo. But, if not, he could fortify himself with the opinion of the Hon. Member for Po. tsmouth, who stated in explicit language that it would not be expedient. —( Hear, hear.) A proposition was made on the subject in 1810 by the Hon. Member for Teignmouth, expressly to the s tine effect as that made by the Noble Lord ; and what did the lion. Member for Portsmouth say on that oceision ? He said that "Nothing was so delusive as to suppose that because a legacy duty attached •to personal property, nothing was on the descent of real property." And he went on to say that a great pert of it was paid by j ere sons considered free from all. liability to the duty. lie was glad,that these opinions fortified his own, though he might adduce others, but so far from Firer. ty not paying, the charges Pie . estates by tamps and other means was consider able. '1 he last point noticed by the Noble Lord, was a recom mendation to increase the assessed taxes. Those gentlemen who supported this resource, spoke as if the assested taxes feil truly on the higher classes. If any gentleman had been Chancellor of the ExChequer he would be aware that commu nications were constantly received, showirg that those taxes pressed severely on the less wealthy. It the Noble L .rd thought they could raise two millions by the assessed taxes, ne was in error, or he must lay it on the light and windows of the poor. Then, with respect to the house tax, a large portion of the houses of this country was exempted from the tax; about two-thirds of the houses were exempted altogether. The house tax, too, was only a species of proper ty tex, operating on one kind of property alone, and they might, by placing a heavy charge on amens house, attack his means through his habtta ion. The great weight of the tax, however, must fall upon the poorer classes of the communily. He would read to the House the words made use of by Sir John Key, when Lord Mayor of London, in relation to the house and window tax. That was an authority to which the Noble Lord ought to bow. —(Cheers and laughter.) Surely the representative of the City would al'ow some weight in the authotity of the Lord Mayor.—( A laugh.) It VMS, moreover, the opinion of a man not opposed to the Noble Lord, but one who had been con nected with Noble Lord, both in City and in general politics, and who was as much entitled to admiration in the one situation as he was in the other.—(Cheers and laughter. ) Sir John Key said that the City of London objected to the house and window tax as a tax unjust in principle—(Cheers prom the Ministerial benches)—as a tax that in its operation was oppressive and inquisitorial—(Ministerial cheers)—and vexations in its imposition and collection—(renewed Minis terial cheers)—and that no modification could make it a fair sod equitable tax. Having told the House what it was not, sir John Key proceeded to inform them what it was, aed he iescribed the house tax to I.e a property tax, but not an equal property tax ; a property . tax pressing upon one description of property only ; an unfair tax, a tax pressing unjustly upon he industry of the country.—(Cheers.) It was an income ax in its most odious form—( Continued Ministerial cheers) — because it touched not the. great masses of wealth, but pressed solely upon industry. The old income tax, said S.r John Ks., which had been so execrated, was a heavenly tax in eomparison to it.—( Loud cheering and laughter from the Ministerial benches.) '1 he Noble Lord surely could not have consulted his constituents Lefere making his speech this even ing, or rather he had consulted his constituents socabulary, and applied to the property tax, which they called a heavenly ax, those terms which they had applied to the very tax which 'he Noble Lord would propose to substitute for it.— (Cheers and laughter.) He was ashamed of himself for Having so long tresspasseJ upon the time of the House. but after the speech of the Noble Lard, ho had felt it would be impossible for hitwto abstain from addressing them in vindica tion of the financial measures of the Government, He hoped he had satisfied :he HMO that the occasion was one which called for exertion to overcome the financial difficulties of the country—that there was nothing in the present crisis calculated to produce feelings of gloom if they met itlike men, but that they were called upon to make an energetic exertion to repair the ilLances of the country, so as to place them once more on a just and proper footing. He would trust to their readiness to make good the want of income of the country when they found that the country required it. Time had been allowed for ascertaining the opinion of the country, and he hoped to find that the feel ing which was entertained upon that measure, when it was first proposed to the House, had been confirmed ; and although they would not, like the Lord Mayor of London, sty that it is a heavenly tax, they would, he was sure, be ready to submit to ;t, as the best means of repairing the finances, and enabling them to give relief to the trade, the manufactures, and com merce of the country ; and however he might differ in politics with the Noble Lord, the Noble Lord had no less admitted it to be one of the many evils existing in the country. Mr. WILLIAMS said that he had listened with great atten tion to the Right Hon Gentleman, and he regretted to say that he had not succeed in convincing him that the prop , sition of the Government was the best means cf making up the pre sent deficiency in the revenue. Although the Right Hon. Gentleman was confirmed in his opinion by that expressed by a Lord Mayor of London some 15 years ago, he (Mr. Williams) must say that that confirmation was not at all to his (Mr. Wil liams's) satisfaction. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER intimated across the table that the opinion he had referred to was ex. pressed not more than ten yeaani ago. Mr. WILLIAMS said it had not at all removed his objec tion to the Right Hon. Gentleman's propoition. He (Mr. Williams) was exceedingly pleased to find that the Noble Lord the Member for London, in his resolution, had adopted one proposition which he (Mr. W.) had expressed his intention of proposing to the House, viz., to subject all description of property, which was now not liable to the legacy and probate duty, as other property. The Noble Lord had made an addition to his proposition with respect to assessed taxes, and although he (Mr. Williams) considered the window tax as most objectionable. still he thought it was much better than that most unjust, unequal, and inquisitorial income tax, as it was proposed by her Majesty's Government. Notwith standing the opinion expressed by the Right Honourable Gen tleman, he (Mr. Williams) must say, that the tax, as it was pro- posed, was most unjust and most unequal. It was true, the Right Hon. Gentleman had justified that inequality, by the equality existing in levying other taxes. But he (Mr. Wil hams) had often complained in that House of that inequality, and of its great injustice. He had often shown in that House how this inequality existed. He was glad that the Right Hon. Gentleman had made that admission, and he had hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman's attention would be called to what he himself admitted to be an injustice, and thence to a general revision of the taxation of the country. There were one or two cases which gave great • dissatisfaction to the country. With regard to the proposition of the .Noble Lord, he must say, that he did not think the Noble Lord had made out a very good ease. In the first place, he (Mr. Wil liams) much preferred the timber duties proposed by her Ma. jesty's Government to those suggested by the Noble Lord. Her Majesty's Government had dealt fairly with respect to that very important article. He knew of no article in that country more important than timber; not only was it a very useful article in building, but, if the duty was lower, it would enable them to build their ships cheaper, and thus enable them better to com pete with the foreign shipowner. If they increased their ship ping, they 'Very greatly added to the employment of capital. It 3130 greatly added to the employment of seamen. He believed that nothing was so well calculated as a protection against foreign countries as the manning of ships in the mercantile ser vice. He must say that, with regard to the article of coffee, which was the next item in the Noble Lord's resolution, that he thought the Government had dealt most liberally with it, but he thought they had made too groat a difference between colonial and foreign coffee. He thought their proposal would have been much better if the difference which existed now be tweon colonial and foreign coffee—viz., 6d. or 9d., and Js. 3d., had been continued. He thought that a differential duty of fifty per cent. was an ample arid more than sufficient protection to the colonies. He did think that every encoutagement should be given to the consumption of coffee, considering the present position of China. He thought that a duty of sixpence a pound on foreign coffee would gi eatly increase the consump tion, and not at all diminish the revenue. With regard to the proposition with respect to sugar, he had already often expressed ats opinion. He could hope to see the treaty entered into with 'oreign countries where sugar was grown for the abolition of slavery. If they could accomplish this with the Brazils, Spain would soon adopt the same course. With regard to the other troposition of the Noble Lord, he had said often before in that House, that he was decidedly in favour of a free trade in corn. Rut if any duty was proposed, he thought that a fixed duty, such as the Noble Lord had before proposed, or one still less, would be infinitely better than the measure of her Majesty's Government, which had yesterday passed that House. But with regal d to the reduction proposed, he had before stated that he considered the present measure a eons;derable amendment on the old law • but still he thought that as much income would have been produced by an Bs. duty, and th It in the course of a year more, while at the same time the price would be less to he consumer. With regard to the taxes which hof been alio ished since the war, he must say that any tax that would fall on persons poss.asing property would be much more preferab.e ihan to have the assessed taxes restored. He euesi- .lered that the industrious classes were already moat unjustly burdened, and he, therefore, said that any :axes that would again r.ffect them ia a peculiar manner ought to be certainly avoided. After reading the res•dution of the Noble Lord, he must say that he was not at all prepo sensed in favour of the proposi ion, as set forth in these resolutions. ilut the Noble Lord had made consideraMe addit ons to hi, . . views in his speech, which had alteted his ( Mr. Williams's) upi.don etogether vt ith regard to the profe,sed mode making up the deficiency in the revenue cf the country. In consequence of this he had given no t to of his (Mr. Williaa s s) pro;:ositions ' which he still con sidered better than those of the Noble Lord. (Hear, hear.) I'he first propasition was with respect to real property, or pro perty of every description, not liable to the payment of the Came amount of duty as was then paid upon personal property to the legacy and probate duty. The No le Lord had not named what he (Mr. Williams) consi 'ered a most unjust dis tinction. Take, for instance, a man who lefLhis children 30/ If that property consisted of furniture, that furniture had to be valued, and if that turnitme was valued at .01. these children had to pay the legacy and pr bate duty _(Cries of .." Hear, hear") --if a rich Nobleman, worth 100,0001. a year, he paid neither taxes nor duty. The Ri3ht Hon. Baronet shook his head; now, he would ask him if the Duke of Cleveland, the Duke of Norfolk, or the Marquis of Hertford, who had just come into such immense estates, when these Noblemen paid any duty whatever upon their estate/. He (Mr. W.) was not aware that they were at all liable to any tax ; but if they were he was sure the Right Hon. Baronet would readily furnish the House with the information. Was he not right, then, in asking if such a state of things was not most unjust? Ho did not wish the rich man to pay more than the poor man in proportion to the amount of his property ; he only wanted all parties to be equal. lie thought it was idle to argue a principle so self-evident, if he could not anti4ate that arty argument founded on rs•avin could be advanced' against them. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had referred to the amount of taxes in the year 1825. He (Mr. W.) wished the Right Elonourable Gentleman had come to a later period, for there as as a vast difference in the value of property then and now. If he calculated the amount of pro perty as in 1625, and what it was now, he would have a mu c h larger revenue than he would have had in 1825. He hat heard persons who were well acquainted with this sub ject, and they had estimated the increase of property at from two millions to two millions and a half. Tt.e next part of his propasition referred to all annuities, pensions, divhiends, and salaries, and provided that they should be liable to a certaiti iin positton of taxation. For all salaries up to 250/. or 3001. a year, he proposed a tax of W. in the pound, or two and a half per cent. several gentlemen had stated to him that there was great objection to this proposal. If he did riot consider that the proposal was founded in justice, he would never have p'oposed it. He would state shortly to the H cruse his reason for im posing this tax. When they looked to the present state of the country, with the exception of those two great interests, the landowners and the NVest India Proprietors, who were protected by . monopoly created by legislation in that House with the exception of those two classes, a very class in this country was thi n in a state of suffering. The merchant, the manufacturer, the shipowner, and the labourer, all were in a state of great depres sion aid luffering. That he believed no one could question. If they compared these classes to the same classes of six years ano, they would find that six years ago they were able to pay twice as much taxes as they could now. Seeing then that this chess was in this state of suffering and distress, it weuld be unjust to add a greater weight to taxation to that which already pressed them down, not only so heavily, but so unjustly. Another reason why he made this proposition vess the value of money now and same years ago. During the war the salaries of public men were very much increased. They must also consider the fall in wages, and yet out of these wages the taxes principally came. He referred to a most able work written by the Right Hon. the Secretary for the Home Depart ment en this subject, who was a very high authority. He (Mr. Williams) had read a great many works, and he never read any in which the view of the writer were ex pressed with more ability, lse would say, with more justice. The Right Hon. Gentleman stated that the difference in the value of money now and in 1813, which was the last year of the war, was at least 30 per cant. Now there was net an indi vidual eho had ever expressed an opiaion on the subject, who did not hear opt the Right Ilona Baronet in this. But if he 01r. Williams) were to express an opinion, he should think that the Right Hon. Gentleman hail rather under-stair d the fact than otherwise. The amount of taxes in 1813 was 81,000,000/ , arid the value of gold w, , s 51.65. 2,1, the ounce. At the present time the taxes were about 58 millions, while the value of gold was ni. I7s. 100. In 1812 the price of wheat was 1225. 61., now the price was 625., so that they had to pay the same amount of taxes upon salaries, while they could get two qu'ar ters of W' eat when they could have but one in 1812. In 1813 according to the contracts at Greenwich Hospital, the price of beef was 9d. a pound; he did not know what the contract was at the present time, but a very large quantity was con sumed, and he thought he should not be far from the truth when he said it w s not more than 6d. per pound, so that they had a pound and a half of beef now to one pound in 1813. The present condition of every one who would have to pay the tax would make the burden upon him a great deal heavier than in 1834. He (Mr. Williams) never knew a man pay who had trot the means to do so. Hume in his " Essay on Credit," said, that under the Circumstances of heavy debt in which this country was placed, the revenue must be raised from a con tinued tax on annuities, or what was the same thing, from the mortgage of those annuities. They must come to this in the end ; the Right Hon. Gentleman said that a long time ago, and he (Mr. \V.) must say that it did the Right Hon. Gen tleman great credit, thathe had foreseen it. He agreed with the Right lion. Gentleman in one point, and that %%as that e ha' ever amount of expenditure this House might vote, it was bound to place the meant , of rai-ing it in the hands of Government, and that in a manner very differently from all that had been done of late.—(Hear, hear.) Now if his (Mr. NI illiaras's) plans were carried out, it would secure to the Government a sum of from 4 000,000/. to 4,500,000/., which would be amply sufficient for the exigencies of the country. He would make one more observation only before he sat down, and that was that too much dependence should not be placed upon the Bank of Erg land. He knew that the. Bank was very willing to accommo date the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but stilt it might be unable to afford the required accommodation. On the sth of January of this year, the Government had not above 3,60a,000/. to pay debt of 9,000,0001. ; and if, when appli cation was made for more advances, thirteen Directors had said, 6‘ No," in what state would the Government have been ? He would press this matter on the atten tion of the Right Hon. Baronet, as tieing a subject well wet thy of his consideratien. And again he would remind the Right Hon. Baronet, that in the course of a few years the Bank would apply for a new charter, and then it would be well tor the Right Hon. Baronet to be able to meet them, without being under any apprehension, or any dread, but on a fair footing of • independence. He thanked the House for the attention with which he had been heard, and he begged to give notice, that after the Noble Lord's motion was disposed of, he should move the following resolution—" That it is the opinion of this Com mittee, that, towards raising the supply granted to her Majesty, and for the reducing, as much as may be practicable, the duty new payable on malt, sugar, and tea, there shall be charged an nually the several rates and duties following, that is to say ; for and in respect of every annuity, pension, stipend, dividend, or sa'ary, p.iyab e nut of the public revenue of the United King= dem of the annual amount of 150/. to 300/., for every twenty shillings. sixpence; of 3001 to 5001., fur every twenty shilling-, one shilling of 5001. to 750/. for every twenty shillings, on shilling and sixpence ; of 750/. to 1,0001., for every twenty shillings, two shillings; of 1,0001. to 1,500/., for every twenty shillings, three shillings ; of 1,500/. and up wards, for every twenty shillings, four shillings, on the rains thereof. For and in respect of all lands, tenements, heredita , merits, heritages, and real property of every description, there shall be charged to every person on coming into possession thereof, by inheritance or bequest, a duty equal in amount to the probate and legacy duty now payable on personal property." Sir R. INGLIS said that„after the excellent speech of his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he did not rise for the purpose of following the Hon. Member through his sreech ; but he rose simply for the purpose of submitting to ha Right Hon. Friend, the First Lord of the Treasury, one alteration which he took the opportunity of suggesting now for his approval. The Right Hon. Baronet had pledged the ex istence of his Government upon the success of this great finan cial measure, but though he stated that, he expressed, at the same time, his willingness to listen to any co ernunicatic ns re lating to the details of the measure. The Right Hon. Bart. began by stating that he could expect no sacrifices on the part of those whose incomes did not exceed 1501. per annum. Admitting, therefore, that those whose incomes were below that sum, were not in a position to bear the tax, which ought to be levied on others, be begged to submit to the Right Hon. Gentleman, that an equal advantage should be given to those whose incomes should exceed 150/., that was to say, that those whose income was 2001. should pay the tax only on the surplus 501. He be lieved there was no modification of the Right Hon. BM onet's plan which would so much tend to make his measure generally re ceived, as this—the alteration would make very little difference in the amount expected to be received by his Right lion, Friend, but to the person whose income was only 1501., it would be a great and thankfully received boon. I'here was • another suggestion which he begged to make before he sat down ; he believed that the country generally would receive with more satisfaction a property tax of 4 or 5 per cent., than to be compelled to submit to all the machinery of the income tax. He begged to recommed these suggestions to the eon ! sideration of the Right Hon. Baronet, because he be'ieved they would greatly tend to lighten the burdens of the tax where they would press heaviest. Mr. P. M. STEWART said he considered that this threatened tax was a most inquisitorial, odious, and unneces sary imposition upon the people of this country, but if they ' were to be subjected to it, he agreed with the Hon. Baronet, the Member for Oxford, that they should endeavour to mak3 it as little burdensome as possible, and in that spirit he (Mr. S.) approved of the suggestion of his Hon. Friend that the 150/. ought to be made the unit in calculating the amount of the tax.—( Hear, hear.) To the last suggestion of his Hon. Friend he (Mr. Stewart) would make no remark, because he was going now to make desperate war against the proposition. The Right lion. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, said that he, as a financier, helped in 1816 in the hopeless un dertaking to continue for two years that tax, and he said that he was quite sure if she property tax had been continued for two years, after the close of the war, our finances would have been in a much more flourishing state now than they were. He (Mr. Stewart) said that in looking back in the defeat of the proposition of Mr. Vansittart to continue a tax which it was the duty of the Government in honour to withdraw, no one could look but with sympathy on those who caused the de fect of the revenue. He would just make ore quotation, to show the opinion that was entertained of that tax, by a man who might be called a high authority. Mr. raring, now Lord .Ashburton, thus spoke, after an eloquent and powerful speech, showing the impolicy of continuing that tax after the war:— " Since there is a debt of 820,060,0001., it is of little conse quence whether twelve more be added ; but it is of the great est importance that the people should be liberated from this mitt unjust, unnecessary, and odious imposition." Thr , se were the words of Mr. Baring in 1816, and he (Mr. Stewart) presumed that he might put them in opposition to the opinions of the Right Hon. Gentleman. New, the Right. Hon. Gen tleman said, and he (Mr. Stewart) agreed with him, that they (lid right in boldly looking their circumstances in the face; but the Right Hon usable Gentleman said that it was not merely the deficiency of 2,500,0001., for which they had to provide ; but they bad to cure the evils of a se: ies of de ficieneles for five or six yeses past. He (Mr. Stewart) must say that he agreed with the Noble Lord, the Member for London, that there had been a gloomy view taken of those matters, and that these deficiencies bad been magnified and mystified, because he did assert that the deficiency which they had to deal with now, as a financial country in high credit. was simply the deficiency of 2,E00,000i. To what an extent v as it magnified in the first instance ! The Right Hon Baronet, the first night of the financial measure, made a touching intro duction reletive to our affairs in Affghanistan, and he then mixed up with the question—he ( Mr. Stewart) must say he thought very improperly—the difficulties of Indian finance. He had no access to official documents which could throw any light upon his knowledge of Indian finance, but from the last account, written by Mr. Porter, which came down to the year 1840, it appeared that there was a large surplus in the re venue of the four Presidencies of India. He took it, tnen, that there was a considerable surplus at the present time in that quarter. With respect to China, affairs were not settled there, but in the accounts of the revenue, made up to the sth inst., there was a flourishing surplus of six hundred thousand punds, of which certainly upwards of three hundred thousand came out of the six mil ion of d011,r3 paid for the ransom of Canton. It 1,6111 impossible to convince those who were acquainted with the history of the income tax that it- was anything but a war tax to all intents and purposes, and nothing less than a war could justify a tax so inqui.itorial, and tl.e machinery by which it was levied. The Bill of 1806 had ten clauses, a Bill which Mr. Ponsonby had declared to be incompatible with the principle of the personal liberty of the subject. It was in 1798 that the first proposal for such a tax was made, and in 1806 Sir Henry Petty, now the Marquis of Lansdowne, again introduced the subject. But what a ere the circumstances of the country at both of those per loc; compared with the present? Mr. Pitt, in introducing the tax, said that if it were necessary to obtain a supply requisite for the vigorous prosecution of the contest in which they were then engaged, it was evident it must be obtains d by a sudden tax immediately productive. The sum required by Mr. Pitt on that occasion was ten mil lions of money within the year, whereas the deficiency required to be made upon the present occasion - vas only '2,500,000/. In 1798, when Mr. Pitt required to raise these ten millions of money, the Navy Estimates amounted to 13,642,0001., andithe Army Estimates to 8,840,0001. In 1806 when Sir Henry Petty made his proposition for an income tax, a loan of between eighteen and twenty milli , ns of money had been effected, and the Estimates for the Navy were 15,281,C001., and the Army Estimates 18,200,0001. How deferent were the circumstances of those periods from th 3 circumstances of the present. With respect to the imyrosements in the tariff proposed by the Right Hon. Bartnet, though some of them Y EVICNING, APRIL 9, 1842. were eery meritorious, _yet a great many of them were very artificial With regard to the article of timber he (M Stewart) protested against throwing away the revenue derived from that source ; it was a benefit which would be thanklessly received by the censumer, and would in every way go to injure our Canadian interests. There was another tax which had not been adverted to to-night, sad which he hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would see reasons for relinquishing altogether. He meant the tax of 4s- . per ton upin coals—a tax which would be most injurious : in its effects upon the shipping and commercial interests of the country. In all foreign coun tries, except Belgium, which was in ;tself a coal country, they took our coal on account of its cheapness, since, the duty was. lowered in 1835. With regard to corn, he was one of those . who advocated the freedem of the article from all duty what ever. He had voted with the late 'Government in behalf of a fixed duty, as being an iestaltnent of the principle of free, trade. As to sugar, he had supported the proposition, of the late Government respecting the duty upon that article, but he liked still better the proposition shadowed . forth in the commercial scheme of the Right Honourable Ba ronet. He thought that it was in the lower of the Legislature to indemnify the West luoian interest bi making certain regulations with respect to coffee and sugar. At present British eclo..ial sugar could not be used in breweries, and only in distilleries, when entered specially fee tl.at purpose. Could not such a regulation as that be done away wlt h ? Now. he pointed out these things for the purpose of showing that if the Colonies wished to come to a settlement of the question, they might i.e freed from many restrictive measures; and he believed they would thus Le eempeneated for any reduction of duty. With respect to the tariff of the Right Hon. Baronet, he wished to say that it appeared to him that it contained many anomalies, although he admitted that it also contained some useful. changes. There' was one item in the tariff, namely, that of apples, on. which he wished to make a few observations: He was stir• rised to find that the duty upon foreign applies was to be five per cent upon their value ; surely that was a nisei int, or it had been !Tinted in Kent.—( A laugh ) That duty was larger than that which lied been formerly levied; and it should he observed ti at the article was one of very general consumption. Again, he found that the article of hops had been left entirely untouched—(Hear, hear)—and on linseed cake the duty had been raised one third per cent. He hid alluded to these things, in order that they might undergo revision, and he hoped, cor rection. There was another point on which he wiz' ed to be allowed to say a few words. A petition had lately been forwarded from certain farrrers in Roxburgliahire who paid more than 00,000/. an nually in rent ; and they stated that it would be unfair to the Scotch farmers generally to assess their incomes at one-half of the rent. He believed that these who were best acquainte with the subject would say that. one-half of the rental was far more than the profits of the hot lees of well-regulated farmer s in Scotland. lie trusted, therefore, that that subject would he again taken into the consideration of the Government. The Right lion. Baronet, in introducing the income tax, had alluded to the condition of this country at a former period, when we had a mutiny at the Note, 'rebellion in Ireland, and disasters abroad, with the funds at 52. But there was now no mutiny at the Nore—( Laughter on the Ministerial benches)— there was no rebellion in I: eland, and the funds were at 90. Ile did nor, he admitted, hail that last circumstance as an in dication of national prosperity. The funds were high, and money a as invested in them because trade languished, and the re was no pr. fitable emplotment for capital. The Right Hon. Baronet, in his opinion, had exaggerated the difficulties of our present position ; the voile of the country would ever be ready to meet real dangers when they had arrived; but they would not pusilanimously magnify their difficulies, and fly to 'desperate expedients, which the necessities of their condition did net require.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. G. PALMER commenced by alluding to the taunts of the Noble Lord (Lord. J. Russell) upon the conduct of lion. Members on his (W. Palmer's) side of the Houite. He confessed he had voted for the third reading of the Corn Bill, though he was not satisfied that the protection afforded to the agricultural interest by that Bill was sufficient.—(Op position cheers.) He thought , the agricultural interest re quired more protection. The Right Hcn. Gentleman had taken the average of three years instead of fifteen, as, in his opinion, he ought. But he did not not think he was incon sistent in the course he adopted with regard to the Corn-law. —(lronical cheers.) It wad impossible for a person to vote for a question which embraced so many topics es the Coin law, and yet dialent from portions of it.--( Hear, hear.) He vo:ed for it, though he believed it was not quite satisfactory to the agi iculturists of the country.—(Opposi ion cheers.) The Right Hon. Baronet prop - sod it under the idea that wheat would be kept at a price between 545. and ohs. ; and if that were riot sufficient, he was su-e the Right' Hon. Baronet would be ready to alter the'law.—( Opposition cheers.) With regard to the income tax, he was well aware of its inquisitorial character—of the many inconveniences that attended it (Hear. he r) —but he was also aware, that the credit of the country must be maintained; and that was acknowledged by the Noble Lord anti the Hen. Member for Coventry. The courery should be placed in that position in which it was six or seven years ago—( Hear, hear)—and he believed that 6,000,01.0 would be requisite to support the credit cif the country. ' The Chaecetlor of the Exchequer would not deny that.—( Laughter.) It was for the sake of the credit of the country, and for that only, that he would give his vote for the in. come tax. When he looked, also, to the wars of A ff s shanistan and China, and to the necessity imposei on them of supporting the honour of the country in the' Ea.t, he should vote for the tax. With ressect to the tariff, he supposed that a new edition would appear on Monday—(Opposition cheers)—but he must say it was a tariff to which he could never consent.—(Renewed Opposition cheers and laughter.) He could never consent to such a tariff, in ordebto gratify the wishes of free traders. He would not consent to lower the duties on coffee and timber, and thereby occasion a great sacrifice of the revenue, in order to gratify free traders. The income tax'svas proposed for three years,but the reduction of the duty on those articles would occasion a permanent loss to the revenue, which must be supplied. It was said that the increased consumption of those articles would supply the loss to the revenue, but the same argument was used with respect to the reduction on the postage, and what was the result ? He hoped that the money would be put into the Exchequer account, so that the Right Hon. Gentleman would then consider, with respect to the, tariff, what was to be done. —(Laughter.) The present tax was one that would not press at all on the labouring classes, and it was much less burdensome than these that had been imposed in former times.—( Hear.) Mr. Pitt fixed 601. as the point of exemption, because that was estimated to be the average price of labour ; if 1501. had been the average price of labour, that should have been the point of ex. emption. The Hon. Member concluded by sayieg that he would give his strenuous opposition to the resolutions of the Noble Lord. Sir W. SOeIERVIL LE said that, after the lengthened dist us. stout which had taken. place on the subject before the House, he did not expect to throw any adtlitioaalslight upon it; yet, as an Irish Member he felt called upon to express his feelings with re gard to the measure then under consideration. If he viewed the matter in a partial light, confining his attention to Ireland, he would not hesitate to vote for the bringing up of theßeport. He felt grateful to the Right Hun. Baronet fur exempting Ireland from the opera tion of the tax. He also felt grateful to him for making it apply to Irish absentees, though he was afraid that he would not be able to catch held of them in the way that lie anticipated.—(Laughter.) Butt he was bound to consider this tax, not as an Irish represents. tive, but as a representative of the Imperial Parliament, with reference not to Ireland merely, but t o a ll interests and cl a sses ; and, viewing it in that light , he could not vote for the imposi tion of the proposed tax. Notwithstanding the remarks of the Hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Roebuck) in a former debate, there appeared to be but one opinion out of doors with respect to the i nqu i s it or ial nature of the income t ax— th e p r op osa l met with un i ve rsal disapprobation. believe that be at more (lucre overlookcce3sit for Y Its oppressive ch aracfer.— ( H ear, h ear. ) Th e didh a beliefle , d win e ct fi si c in i a e ei t : l lY nety o w hich existed was not th e result o f crea t e d reckl es s ex. peneiture,but of the too great readiness of Hon. Gentlemen on it; with llor sue b that side of the House to take off taxes. The fault was at least on the right side. — ( Hear, hear .) He believed that that deficiency might be made up with out r esorting to an income tax, by means which would at one time supply revenue, and afford relief to the consumer. With these views, tho ug h he felt grate f u l t o th e Hon. Baronet for exempting Ireland franc the operation of the tax, he would feel bound to give the proposal his strongest opposition. Capt. HAMILTON said he did not intend to accuse Hon. Members opposite of being the causes of the dilemma into which the Legislature had been brought. It was admitted, however, on all sides that there was a great deficiency, and the ques. tion Is how should it be supplied ? Should they adopt the schemes of the Noble Lord opposite, er the bold and stringent plans of the Right Honourable . Baronet! Those who complained, that the land did not pay its shame of the public burdens, and who insisted that it ought to pay the legacy duty as well as personal property, should remember the heavy duty the land paid already on the transfer of property. The income tax woul.i, of course, bear heavily on some classes and individuals, but if the Right Hon. Baronet were to erase all such items his scheme would be reduced to nothing. I t would press not more heavily than It was the nature of a general tax to do; and if it should bear hardly on the widow she would find some compensation in the benefits she would derive from the tariffand the new provision.law. Mr. SHIEL assured the Right Honourable Baronet that with goodwill—to adopt the expression of the Honouralele Member for Essex, who had just now addressed them— that with gosd.wlll the people of this country would submit to an income tax, however obnoxious, if, for the sustainrncnt of the honour and interests of England, that tax were indispensable. Under this impression, they would with promptitude imitate the example which our gracious Sovereign had spontaneously and mag nanimously given. —(Hear, hear.) But of that generous disposi tion of the people, the Minister should be slow to take advantage ; and he should avoid, with peculiar care, any exaggerated descrip tion of the embarrassments and perils of the country, in order to procure their acquiescence in an impost, of all others the most convenient to time Government—of all others the most harassing and vexatious to the public.—(Cheers.) Did the condition of the country—did the state of our finances—did past misfortunes, or existing difficulties—did impending hazards make the imposi. Lion of an income tax of truly imperative necessity. —(Cheers.) Ere many months should have passed, as was suggested by the Noble Lord who moved the amendment—ere many months, this question would be putt by that portion of the community who were the de peaitories of political power, and on the answer they, not the Mem bers of the House, should give, would the stability of the Govern. went depend, for then the merits of the Ministry would le tried by the truest test, .and their claim to public confidence would be determined, not by the acclamations of the majority here, not by the triumphs of a general election, but by the results to which the legislation of the Right Hon. Baronet would then have conducted. —(Cheers.) He (Mr. S.) admitted that the Right Hon. Baronet had acted a direct and bold part. He said that if he could rot cat ry his measures—if he could not carry the income tax, which was supported by many of his frie nds, and the tariff, to which several of his friends objected—he was prepared to take the course he adopted in 1835. Ile, however , was in different circumstances now, and magnanimity iwithiie permission, he lie m (Mr. S.) weuld say th e Ri g h t H ost. Baronet's what misplaced, for there was Itosoe risk that his public virtue would be put to so severea ter. Though It might be paradoxical to say so, still he (Mr. S.) would observe, that the Right Hon. Baronets first ditfleulty would be the result of his success, which would be one of those victories which it was net diffiCult to win, but not easy to follow up. When the ineotne tax had been in practical operation — when that which was now the theory of Parliament had bevoo e an actual burden on the public —when the full ineaning of that most significant expression, " an income tax," was thoroughly understood—when schedule D was perfectly intelligible—when they shou'd know, through the medium of that experience which was the best of all public instructors, the nature of an income tax, paid cut of what was well known as "the beneficial interest " in the Irish debates, meaning that from which a man's subsistence was derived—wh. n they knew that no allowance was to be set off asainsi the charge tor the necessities of life, tire, food, clothing, the roof over every English tradesman's head—when the privaey o f so many Englishmen was invaded by the retinue of inquisitors attached to the new tribunal—when they saw that investigation's on oath took place into the pecuniary car. cumstancts of every man, as often as your Commissioners, original, additional, and special, Omuta conjecture that more than 150/. had been recsived In a single year—when they had felt all the pains, all the humiliations, incidental to this odious tax—..when the income tax, in one word, shall have been brought home to them—then he. (Mr. Shicl) thought the peop le of this country would be dispoSed to ask whether, after all, this measure was unavoidable?—(Cheers) — whether there was not any other expedient to which the Minister might have had recourse ?—whether the possession of power had not tempted him to abuse it?--whether he had not availed hin.self of excited and enthusia.rc majorities, for the purpose of inflicting on the country a tax which, peither its present circumstances, nor its future prospects could be said to jaunty ?—(Cheers.) His opinion was, that he was mistaken in his view of the public necessities, and had overrated the exigences of the State, and that the people would pronounce their condemnation of a scheme of which a tax so inqui ' sitorial, so unjust, and so immoral, for Med the b ass. —(Cheers.) . We are told that this tax Is necessary to supply a double deficiency—sne that unhappily did exist, the other, to be consequent on a"great commerci a l experiment —(Hcar.) He could not help thinking that it was an error to add to an existing deficiency for such a purpose, to inflict a new wound in order to apply a favourite but formidable cure, a cure too whi:h was more than doubtful. If such an expedient had been adopted by his Right Hon. Friend, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, he would have been accounted an empiric of the most objectionable character. But it was the rids Torture of the Right Hon. Baronet to have those around him who entertained the opinion that was so admirably expressed by Waller at' a state,man of his time:— `• Still, as you rise, the State, exalted too, • Knows no disturbance while 'tis changed by you." (Cheers.) Ile was one of those who thought that the experiment of rise Right lion. Bart. was not after all of such value (though he admitted it had great merit) as to induce them to incur the evils of an income tax.—(Dear, hear.) The tariff of the Right lion. Baranct ought, at all events, to be perfect in order to induce them to submit to an income tax, as a contingent to such a con quence. The !lota. Member tor Renfrewaliire had gone through the tariff, and had mentioned a few articles that might be objected to. And he, (Mr. Shiel) was also, he must confess, at a loss to know why the Right Hon. Baronet had abolished the ditty on Canadian timber. Sir Henry Parnell, who seemed to be an au. thority on whom the Right lion. Baronet relied, did not state that the duty on Canadian timber ought to be remitted, nor could he draw any such inference from the passage which the Right Honourable baronet had quoted from him. Mr. M'Gregor, the Secretary of the Board of Trade, whose evict, nee before the Import Duties' Committee produced a general conviction that some change was required, who had spent some time in Canada, and written an admirable book on the counts y, says, that the duty on Canadian timber ought to be reduced f ora 10.. to _7s. 6d. Mr. APGregor had furnished the plat) of a tariff, in which that was the amount of the duty on Canadian timber. By the change the Right Hon, Baronet introduced he sacrificed 600,000/., and lie thought he ought to produce a very strong case to justify the abandonment of that sum. Some sorts of Canadian timber were eadispensible to the consumer in this country, so that the abolition of the duty on Baltic timber would not aff.mt the sale of the Canadian. The Right Hon. Ba ronet had been not taunted, perhaps, but his attention had cer. Wilily been directed to this subject again and again, and hi had as yet given no satisfactory answer. Now, with respect to the sugar duties, the duty on an article of universal and necessary consump. not), in ( n article of much riararkmurit iinpartance to the present mass of the community, the Right Hon. Baronet made tto change ahatever.—(Cheers.) He thought it was the feeling of that House, and the feeling of the country also, that the Right lion. Baronet, on this subject, had not given any satisfactory explanation. In this question, no one was more interested than the Noble Lord opposite, who, in 1833, introduced the celebrated motion, which reflected so much honour on the country, and the Government to which the Noble Lord was then attached, the Emancipation Act; and he knew that no pledge whatever was then given that the West Lidian monopoly shou d continue ; he believed he would agree that no intimation, no hint, was given that that monopoly should he preserved. The best proof that there was no stipulation, seas, that whets the East and West India sugar duties were equalised, and when the East and West India rum duties were equalised, of which equalisation thepresent Chancellor of the Exchequer was a strenuous opponent.—(Sorne dissent was expressed nn the Ministerial side to this observation.) The Right Hon. Gentleman slid contend most ener getically against this equalisatims—(Laughter)—if he was mistaken on a point of fact, he did not see why it should excite the risibility of Hon. Gentlemen, but he believed that they would find that that Right lion. Gentleman, in the discussion on the rum duties, slid in sist on the duties being maintainea. But, however, whets the East and West India duties were equalised, the instant they were put on a level the East and West Indies, which were formerly at variance, formed a junction, in order to preserve the prohibitive duties on foreign " sugar (Hear, hear, and cheers) —so that the West Indies that had gained twenty millions con ceded to the East Indies, which had made no sacrifice, to which the emancipation dad not extend, the advantage of the mono lady that hal been preserved to the present time. --(Cheers.) It would not be disputed that before the Import Duties' Committee, in the investigation into the sugar duties, the evidence of men of sagacity and experience prove) that the reduction of duty on coffee produced a great increase in the revenue. It was reason able to suppose that an analogous result would follow a reduction of the sugar duties—the revenue would be augmented, and the consumption of a necessary article increased—the trade. teit Brazil would be extended, and an itnpulso would be given to their commerce. Mr. M'Gregor had stated that a judicio.s alter ation in the sugar duties, which the Right Hon. Baronet had net touched, would increase the revenue by three millions. He might have an exaggerated view of the subject, bat you, having read that evidence, having changed that system, and acted In great measure on that Report, have you givers any satisfactory reasons for making no change in the sugar duties ? They talked of the policy of not giving encouragement to slavery, yet, in the same breath, they reduced the duty on coffee.— (Loud cheers.) They talk of the crime of encouraging slave labour, and reduce the duty on foreign coffee from Sd to 4d. At the same time they boasted of their desire not to encourage It was a notorious fact that sugar, the produce of slave labour, was refined in vast quantities its this country and exported to the colonies again. The tariff, he contended, furnished no induce ment to submit to the income tax, and if there were any substan tial arguments in favour of an income tax, they must not be drawn from the artificial deficiency which he intended to create—it must be from the existing deficiency that the argument must ap ply. With respect to the existing deficiency he could not help thinking, that if the Right lion. Baronet viewed his own conduct with any respect—if ids sliding scale was at all correct—if his prog nostics were well grounded—if they should t.ave by it an extended trade in corn—if there should be a great deal of corn brought from the many millions of quarters that could be supplied from Tatnboff—(Laughter)—that if this vast quantity would be subject to the tax, then he must feel himself that from this source the revenue must be augmented, and the deficiency would not be [tear so great as he anticipated.—(Cheers.) Admitting the de. • ticiency—deploring its existence as a fact that could not be contro_ verted—still let him venture to suggest that they could not blame the Whigs for that deficiency ; let them recollect, after all, that it was not by the Whigs that the hundreds of millions were added to the national debt.--(Hear, hear.) Perhaps the observation was just ; but they came not now to consider hose they got into the difficulties, but how they were to get out of theta.—(Cheers.) From 1830 to 1836 there was a sur plus of six millions.—(Cheers.) But let it be remembered that in. dependent of that there arose an expenditure for which the powerful minority might account.—(Cheers.) Let any man look to the replies of Mr. Jacob, from which it w. s evident that if even the duties to the amount of six millions were repealed, there would be no deficiency. He was very far from denying that every succession of administrations gave great relief to the country in the way of hope.—(Cheers.) In 1816 the party now upon the Government side of the House re introduced the income tax, and made it the foundation for the abo lition of several other taxes, making it the basis of their policy, on the abolition of other obnoxious taxes, that this should be imposed. But when Mr. Pitt first brought forward this tax, the country was in a state of the greatest difficulty; but he had not occasion to snake a speech half so long, or half so patriotic, as that of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, although at that time the mutiny of the Nore was recent--the rebellion in Ireland was at its height—the Funds were down to 52.—(Cheers.) But the moment of difficulty now came, and mark this—(Cheers and laughter)—he did not call upon the House to mark any statement of his—,but the Chancellor of the Exchequer of that day observed that the tax seas out. which should be kept in reservation for war. Now mark this, these were the words of Mr. Addin g ton—they were spoken on the loth April, 1802.—(Cneers.) On that occasion the present Member for Wilt.. shire (Sir F. Burdett)—(Great cheering and laughter)—said that he was not satisfied with saying that the tax ought to be repealed, but be wished it to be put upon the books of the liotue th the House had declared such a tax ought never to be imposed.—(Cheers and some laughter.) The repeal cf the tax was not sufficient to satisfy him—its principle should be stigmatised and branited.—(lte, nerved cheers.) For his part, he (Mr. Shiel) did not refer to these words on account of any value that could be attached to them, but only to show what Hon. Gentlemen, who sat rm the other side, might now say if they liked.—(Cheers) The language to which he referred was used in 1806. But compare that period with 1842. In 1806 all Germany had been humbled at Austerlitz—the power of Austria was laid prostrate. In that state of the nation's affairs, Lord Henry Petty brought in the Bill, and in the last clause it was enacted that the tax should be collected so long as the war continued, and no longer.—(Hear, hear.) For ten years the people of England had experience of the hardships of this tax, and if the Hon. Baronet succeeded in applying it, they would find as before, that it was like the blister which, the more it drew, the more it adhered. Was not the tax denounced by the greatest merchant in the world, by the man which the Government had sent out as the representative of this great nation to adjust the most intricate and difficult of commercial questions.—(Cheers.) There was another man to whom the public looked with venera tion—a man to whom the Right lion. Baronet, as well as all his countrymen, most look back with gratitude, he meant Sir Robert Peel—(Cheers)—who denounced the tax as inquisitorial and im moral—(Hear, hear)—who said that it was a mistake to say the tax did not press upon the poor, because, whatever pressed open the middle CILISM: bore immediately upon the pour, and that it was the roost iniquitous tax that could be imposed.—(Hear.) These were the persons by whom the tax was opposed, and who were those by whom it was supported. It was supported by Mr. N'ansittart and by Lard Castlereagh, but Lord Castlereagh had a stronger reason to adduce in support of the income tax than the Right Hon. Baronet had at present. Lord Castlereagh had said that they had had to raise 104,000,000/ in the year 1814, that they had had to raise 10'2,000,000/. in the year I Sl5, that they would have to raise 17,000,000/. in the year 18:6. Lord Castlereagh had stated that it would be necessary, if the tax were repealed, and he only asked to continue one half of it, to raise 13,000,0001. by loan for the sera ice of the current year, and to raise 6,000,000/. by loan fur the service of the succeeding year. Lord Castlereagh said that on that occasion, that although it was a war tax, tl.e effects of the war had not passed away, amt he appealed to the patriotism of the country and of the Parliament to sup port the public credit by consenting to the continuance of the tax. In that attempt Lord Castlereagh had not succeeded ; and as ould they have it said that in a Reformed Parliament the Bight lion. Baronet had succeded in carrying a measure which Lord Castlereagh, under such circumstances, had in an unre throted House been unable to accomplish ?—(Loud cheers.) The Right lion. Gentleman said that hue was averse to raising the re venue by a tax which would press heavy upon the poor. A laud able sentiment ; but how could the Right Hon. Gentleman recon. • rile his sympathy for the poor with his conduct in regard to the East and West India monopolies?—(Loud cheers.) These were left unscathed and untouched, while the wretched corkeutters, the unfortunate glovemakers, and the miserable bannetmakers were • sacrificed to the genius of commerce.—( Continued cheering.) The rights of the poor should be maintained, but not at the expense of justice.—(" Hear, hear," and cheers.) This tax was essentially unjust.--( Loud cheers.) It was a tax that touched but lightly on some clasies, and pressed with a destructive weight upon others.--(Cheers.) Let them take the case of a landed pro prietor, a mans having large territorial possessions ; a man sue- roweled by every coin Sort and luxury the imagination could devise; a man entirely exempt from care, and who, if he ever suffered from fatigue, suffered from the fatigue which Mr. Burke so eloquently doss ribed as the laborious lassitude of having nothing to do. Let the.n look at the man, secure in the possession of his estates, secure in the power of transmitting them to his children and their de scendants.— (Cheers ) New let than take the case of a professional man, engaged from morning till night, and °filmes foam night until the creak of slay, in the laborious occupation of his profession—let thet alook at the bodily fatigue which he must undergo, at the wear and tear of his faculties, at the sense of insecurity under which he must labour, beset day by day by the prospect of dying, and leaving his family in a state of destitution.—(Cheers.) Ises them look upon those two pictures, and theta let them say if it was just, if it was fair, if it was humane, that beth these tnen should contribute out of their incomes the same amount to the ince me tax thus levied.—(Continued cheers.) Was ft just ? (Cheers.) the would ask those Gentlemen opposite, who were born to affluence, who had never known a care or an anxiety, those `• Gentlemen of England who live at home at ease," who knew little of the cares which pressed on a matt in adversity—he would ask them if it was just that the same tax which was levied on theta should be levied on the officers in the Army and the Navy,— (CT vers.) On clergymen with small livings who were making an effort, an honourable effort, to educate their children as gentle tnon, and who were on that account the more entitled to sympathy from gentlemen, or widows, who, r, ith a small jainture, had perhaps to maintain tire or six daughters; or tresiewmen, who wens labouring hard fur fifteen or sixteen hours out of the twenty four, was it just, he would ark, to nnpose the same tax upon these permits, and to put them to the rack, in order to extort from them confessions of their circumstances.—(Laud cheers.) lie had heard it sari by some Gentlemen, by the Member for Bath, and by the Right lions. Gentleman opposite, that a fair man ought not to object to an exposure of his circumstances.—(Hear, hear.) Now he (Mr. Sine!) could not conceive anything more distressing to a man, strugsling with adversity, than to be thus compelled to reveal his secret calamities— ( Loud cheers)—and the distress must be greatly I aggravated by his being put upon his oath.—(Cot turned cheers.) T. Right Hon. Baronet would appear to make lightof this, and said that there was a great deal of bard swearing already in the Excise; but surely it was not judicious to introduce this system fuither. It - was not consistent with morality to make men's interests end the it oaths at variance, to give men motives f r perjury by holding out to them the prospect of escaping from pecuniary liability.— (Cheers.) The people of England were a moral people, but still they ought to pray that they might not be led into temptation.— (Loud cheers.) In the debates of last year touching the franchises of Ireland he had heard most eloquent denunciations of villianous perjury —he hoped that those denunciations would not be con maintaining and supporting the Government in such eillirts a might be on the present occasion required of them ? He had said enough to show the great difficulties under which they laboured— difficulties which he believed wou'd be overcome. They wou'd require great military and tinancal exertions to overcome those fined Co perjury in Ireland, and that those who had shown them. selves Pharisees .especting the franchise, would not prove Publi cans respecting finances, that they would not send the tax_ gatherer out with the Gospel in his hands to put a host of questions, and to tempt persons to perjury. There was impiety in the proposition. and it must produce an utter destitution of principle.—(Loud cheers.) It might be said he had been guilty of exaggeration— (Ministerial cheers)—but every word that he had uttered was borne out by the statements made against the tax in 1816. (Chee s.) But no man could be guilty of exag;eration half so monstrous as the advocates of this tax had been in drawing such a picture of the calamitous state of the country.—(Loud cheers.) If at the conclusion of the Right lion. Gentleman's eloquent ora tion on introducing the measure of the income tax, some person who for five or six years had lived secluded from the wotl,l, had entered the House and heard the bight Hon. Gentleman's pc: o. ration, tie would have been inclined to ask, what dreadful series of calamities could have befallen this unhappy country ? He would have asked, was England prostrate at the foot of an enemy atter an unsuccessful war had all the British fleets been destroyed at sea ?—(Cheers)—had the success if Waterloo been reversed (Loud cheers)—had—but that su ely must be impossible—had the armies of lieglan.l with Wellington at their head suffered disastrous defeat T—(Continued cheering.) What would be the astonishment of such a person on turning to the Queen's speech to find that her M jesty had received continued assurance from all Princes and States—(Continued cheering)—that they entertained the utmost anxiety to mainta.n friendly relations with this country, that the great Powers had combined to sign a Trea'y for the settlement of the Ottoman Empire and for the preservation of iv cc ? What would be his astonishment on turning to the speech of another Right Honourable Baronet the Member for Dorchester to find that Right Honourable Baronet staling that such had been the influence of the appointment of a Censer. vative Government, in preserving the peace of Europe that the French Government had agreed to reduce the French navy.— (Loud cheers.) What: Was the Right Hon. Barone‘ to talk of the pacificatory influence of a Conservative Government, to se cure the applause-s of the select audience—and a very select audience it was to whom that speech was addressed, and this from the Prime Minister, the Master of the Ministry—(Loud cheers) —to come down and appal that House, and to startle the country by vague and indefinite statements, that England was on the verge of destruction?—(Loud cheers.) Let them contrast that speech with the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet himself on introducing the Corn Bill.—(Loud cheers.) In that speech the Right Hon Baronet described the distresses of the country as being merely of a transitory nature—that they were dependent difficulties, and should he receive fur answer an extract from the Queen's Speech, which convinced them that there was no European war, and that because dangers were distant they should disregard them ? But with those disasters—in that state of financial diffi culty—what was the measure which this courarsy would resort to, or what was the measure which was proposed by Govcznment this country would consent to adopt ? There was, speaking of thu country alone, 3,000,0001. now to be sun:ltd. Did they enter tain the sanguine hope that in this next yrar and in the present complexion of public affairs, they would make a great saving by A reduction of the taxation ? He doubted whether any mar. was sanguine enough to entertain that hope. He doubted whether any roan cot.ld consid. r the present to be ar accidental or temporary detieit=wl.e:hrr or not they must calculate (it they were determii.e.l nor to resort to the reduction of taxation) upon ((min tied and almost indefinite taxation. He proposed a tax from which all persons with an in. come under 150/. a y..ar were exempt. Ice proposed a tax v hich no doubt hitherto was only resorted to in cases of war; but as the Hon. Member I. r Coventry had said, it would be miserable politi cal perantry to insist upon war as the only contingency to which :in income tax shou'd be applied. Tl.e question was, whether the public necessities were such as to justify the imposition of snob a tax ? The Noble Lard offered as a substitute for the present pro. posal, the bridet of la,t year.—(ldean) The Noble Lard nevus could have thought that war was the only contingency that ciuld justify an income tax. The Noble Lord never could hare thcught that there could be no political necessity in times of peace —not only in times of European pace, but of gcneral peace, when the whole political horizon wan undefaced by a single c:ourt —the Noble Lord could not have ttri ught that under such eircum. stances a property tax must be necessarily unjustifiable, because in the year 1833, when Lord Althorp was beaten upon the malt tax, and a proposal was made with retard to the house and window - taxes, Lord Althorp proposed, and the Noble Lionel (Lord J. Rus sell) supported an abstract resolution, to the effect that if the deficit in the revenue were caused by that reduction of taxation, the only alternative would be the imposition of a property tax. That was the resolution—(Opposit'on cries of " A property tax ")—proposed by the then Government for the purpose of persuadin.„; the Hou►e vf Commons from reducing the house and window taxes. And was it put upon record that a property tax might be available, while an income tax was disclaimed ? No; purposely and stu diously a property tax was considered irreparably alleal with an inc one tax ; and its the resolution it was expressly stated that if they caused a deficit in the year 1633, they should not have resort to the sugar dudes, they should not have resort to the timber duties ; the only alternative which should rescue them upon merely temporary causes (Hear, hear, and cheers) from the financial itillkuliies in which they would have been placed upon the bad harvest--( hear) —upon the monetary distresses of America--(Cheers)--and that his confidence in the resource* of the people of England continued unabated.—(Continued cheering.) For those reasons, he (Mr. Shiel) thought that the Right Hon. by that ccntingeney, would have been the adoption of a praporty and an income tax.—(Hear, hear.) Why, when a gnat party had supported that abstract resolution, was it possible n.w to Ilse and tell him that war alone could just.fy such a nwasure ?—( Near, Baronet had not made out a case for the infliction of this tax in Liras of peace—(Cheers)—a tax which had lie-n found so oppresive, that in 1816, on the conclusion of the peace, the Parliament had hear.) Could he have calculated when he proposed that tax—could he have calculated after he had shown Wet- Henry Parnell, the Chairman of their Financial Committ,e, insisted upon its immediate abandonment.—(L L tul cheers.) A tax which its very advocates admitted was unjust, inas much as it pressed lightly upon the affluent, but fell with withering had left upon record, afar he had read the opinion of Lord Al. thorp—aftcr ne had read the opinion of Mr. Poulett Thomem— could he have believed that it would be a necessary consequence etnct upon the imtusltious classes—(Cherry)—which establisLed inquisition almost as abhorrent as a religious inquisition—(Con tinned cheers)—which turned the Gospel itself into an implement of taxation—(Loud cheers)—which beld out a premium to false_ that he should have been exposed to that Parliamentary opposition on the put of the friends of the late Government, because he had proposed a property tax?—(Hear, hear.) Oh, but said the Noble Lord " You might have resorted to other mersures—you hood and inflicted a penalty upon truth—(Continued cheers}—from tn!ght have resotted to a legacy duty upon property. Why, which honesty could not escape, and in which fraud could not be zaught—(linmense cheering)—which held out a direct inducement to perjury, and seas, therefore, of all imposts, the most immoral— (Cheers)— which vulgarised the feelings—(Loud cheers)—which was abhorrent to the religious sentiments—(Continued cheering) and revolting to the moral sense 01 the English people. (The Right Hon. Gentleman sat down amidst loud cheering front all parts of the House, which continued for several minutes, dining which the House presented a very animated scene. Before the cheering had subsided Sir It. Peel rose, and made an ineffectual attenyt to address the house. The cheering continued, mingled ith suit's of " Adjourn, adjourn!" and repeated cries liar Brotherton, who rose, and, as we understood, moved the adjourn. ment of the ehate. Several lion. Members were pressing to leave the Ilouse, when Sir R. Peel again made a vain attempt to gain a hearing, but was again compelled to sit down, amidst loud cries of '' Question !" " Adjourn !" Order having been partially rests red), The SPEAKER having put the question, Sir R. PEEL said, Mr. Speaker, I wish to ask you, Sir, whether that motion was made before I rose? Mr. BROTHEBTON said he hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would not object to the adjournment, as some business had to be gone through after the debate was concluded. Sir R. PEEL—Then proceed with the debate. I don't wish to speak to the question of adjournment. But I would rather speak to the main question.—(Considerable confusion.) Mr. R. WASON rote to order. Ile understood that there was suppose he had been disposed to take such a step ; in the midst of e , the difficulties in which he was plac.d• he should consider what it wculd be practicable for him to carry. Let him consider the legacy duty—would he have had the support of the late Government if he had made that proposition? What did he find in the Par. liamentary records of the year IS-10 ? Could he expect the sup. port of the Noble Lord when i.e found upon record what had fallen from his own Chancellor of the Exchequer? An Hon. Member, said the Right Hon. Gentleman, proposed that a legacy duty should be imposed tqien real property. I will not go into the moire by which the tax ought to be levied, because my objection is to the principle of the tax.—(Hear.) Now, suppose he had brought forward such a measure—suppose he had proposed the imposition of a legacy duty upon real property, should he not have been met by the suggestion that a property tax wculd have been much better ?—(Hear.) Should he not have teen reminded, and justly reminded, that in the year 1840, the Chancellor of the Exchequer—the financial organ of the Government—had p'aXtd upon record his opposition, not to the expediency, but to the principle of a legacy duty? The Noble Lord had sug,ested two measures—the one, the remission of the duty upon foreign corn ; and tire other, now proposed for the first time, the imposition of a legacy duty upon landed property. Lord PALMERS I'ON—And an addition to the assessed taxer. Sir It. PEEL cuntinued—And an addition to the assessed twice. Ile hoped his agricultural friends—(Laughter on the Opposition benches)—would remember the worth of the Noble Lord, who had a question before the House. described them, in his speech of that night, as having " heads par.. The SPEAKER said that he had made an attempt to put the taking of the nature of the clay which they cultivated." If he question when the Right Hon. Gentleman rose to speak. Lad spoken in terms like these of his manufacturing opponents— S,r R. PEEL said die would address himself to the main question. (Hear, heat)—if he had indulged in such language with respect Ile thought he could, consistently with order, do so. lle thought to those Members in the House connected with manufactures, who it would be perfectly consistent with order to do so, for the per. had spoken slightingly or disparagingly of his measures—if he had parse of shoseing the Howie that they ought not to adjourn, and that spoken of a class in terms like those in which the Noble Lord he was not, in taking that course, establishing a bad precedent from had spoken of the agricultural Members in that House—if he had the position in which he stood. Ile wished to ask whether or not said that their " heads partork of the nature of the clay which he must strictly confine himself to the questien of adjournment ? they cultivated," he wondered what would have been the terms (Here there was considerable excitement in the House, and of reproach which he would have drawn down upon himself by the Right Hon. Baronet appeared extremely agitated.) the use of such contumelious express lons towards a particular The SPEAKER was understood to say, amidst the confusion class.—(Hear, hear.) Why, he felt quite surprised when he that prevailed, that the Right lion. Baronet could, if he thought heard his friends in that House think it necessary to vindicate fit, go into the main question before the House, when speaking en themselves from having given him their support. At one time the question of adjournment, they were charged with having broken their pledges to their con. s tituents.—(Hear from the Opposition benches.) And yet that Sir It. PEEL—If I am in order, and not chargeable with este sound was scarcely extinct before some lion. Gentlemen told tern blishing a bad precedent, I will then go into the mein question. that in bringing forward the Corn .laws he had consult ed cxclu. (Tile House was again thrown into considerable confusion, and the sively the agricultural interest. — ( H e ar, hear .) Why, when he Itight Hon. Baronet seas unable to proceed for some time, owing to the loud cries of " Ostler, order," and " Adjourn, adjourn ;" at had brought forward his Corn - law, which his Hon. Friends were length the Right Hon. Baronet proceeded.) I will state the now charged with supporting, was nut the proposal received grounds upon which, with unabated confidence in the expediamicy with laughter and derision, and was he not told and the necessity of the proposal which I have made, and— that he had offered an insult to a sufleteng people? Had he not Mr. BLE w ITT, who was standing below the bar, rose amidst been ru yeatedly told, that the whole object and etlect of tie law loud cries of " Order, order,' and said,—" Mr. Speaker, r move which he had proposed, was to strip the eekeing law of the oiler. that this House do now adjourn." lions to which it was liable, but to leave the evils to which it led its Thu House was now in a perfect ferment of excitement, and the full force ? Why, they could not masse these extraordinary charges I Right Hoe. Baronet again stood for some time unable to proceed, they could not charge hint with having been subservient to the at length Mr. Illewitt gave way, and agricultural interest, wilds, they charged the agricultural intereo! Sir ROBERT PEEL continued. Ile would again explain with having forfeited all their pledges. The two charges were the steps he proposed for the purpose of rescuing the country perfectly inconsistent. But he trusted the aricultural Members front the calamity and from the disgrace of continued indift would see that the sole proposals of the Noble Lent, to extricate ference and connivance at the financial difficulty of the country, the country from its present difficulty, were an Ss. duty upou They (the Opposition) rested their opposition to the measure whicts corn, an inetease in the assessed taxes, and a legacy duty he had proposed on the double ground, that he had net established upon real property.—(Hear.) These were the three proposals a sufficient necessity to warrant the proposal, that lie had made— of the Noble Lord. Now, with respect to the Corn-lass, ('Tremendous cheering from the Opposition) —and that even if lie epprehended the sense of the House had been sufficiently taken the public eircurnstancea called upon the country to take some de. upon that measure. The House had last eight passed the Govern. meted steps, that still some other course should have been pursued mete Bill ; and he did not suppose he could calculate upon au fs. than subjecting the income of the country to direct taxation. They fixed dusty as a means of supplying any portion of the public noses. charged him with exaggerating the financial difficulties. ( H ere sities An Sr. duty, under any circumstances, must be a preoatious the Bight Hon. Baronet was again interrupted by a tremendous source of revenue, because, in the event of a favourable harvest in burst of olieering from the Opposition, which continued for a cense. this country, they could derive no revenue from it whatever. He dernble time, during which the Bight Hon. Baronet in vain would next come to the assessed taxes ; and lie would ask whet attempted to be heard, and the consequence was we slid not hear were the assessed taxes which the Noble Lord would propose ? They the conclusion of the sentence.) Ile would represent to them anti had lately had ten per cent. added to the assessed taxes ; and he tee country what was the real position of the country in respect to very much doubted whether as much might not be now said In favour her financial aifliculties. He said that in the year 1835—(the Right of a property tax as against an increase in the assessed taxes. It they lion. Baronet was here again interrupted by loud cries of " Order") °ejected to a property tax that it had a tendency to dinehlish —Lord 111elbounic's Goveinment being then restored to office— the comforts of the poor by reducing their employment, h thought and the conclusion of the year 1836, they (the late Ministers) being he could show them that assessed taxes were still more liable to the the administrators of the finances of two great empires. The same objection.—(hear, hear.) And if the proposition of the one, the dominions of her M ujesty in the United Kingdom, and Noble Lord, of an increase ite the assessed taxes, as a means of the other the great empire of the East, where millions ofsubjects supplying the di ficlency in the revenue, were adopted, he thought were submitted to their sway—in 1836, in those two empires, he could show that every addition made to the assessed Mee, ( l'he rest of the sentence was lest in loud elks of" Order, order.") would fall with more prejudicial effect upon the labouring wed \Vas he not to be allowed to perform a great public duty ? He industrious chasms than a property tax. If they levied their was vindicating himnself from the charge that he had overrated di- charges on the assessed taxes how did they exempt profesaionel fliefultics for the purpose of procuring acquiesence in his proposals. , men ? Here was a charge made, that it was unjust to levy a tax Ia I god they (the Opposition) having the afiairs of two g re a t en , on incomes ; bile surely, the professional mate must bear the 'mires to administer, found their finances in this state. In ties amount, If levied by means of assessed taxes. — (Cheers.) country they had a surplus income over expenditure of If any distinction were made with respect to the temporary nature 1,376,000/. In India they Pad a surplus of 1,556,000/. of incomes it would be useless, because they would have to pay the amount in the window and house tax.—(Hear, bean) Were riot They entered on the rerformance of their duties with a net the assessed taxes liable to the same objection as the property tax? surplus In those two empires of 3,000,000/. of income over expen- l 1 —(llear, hear.) After they raised the assessed macs they increased secure. How had they left it?—(hear.) Was he overrating diP - the temptation to go abroad.—(llear, hear.) Take a person with ficulties —Meer, and counter cheers)—when they rem s td a cur- , 50,00 e/. or 60,000/. a year, and if they assessed him to Ara amount Alas of 3,000,C00/., and left a deficit of 5,000,00 W. ? They had a ! Settee, in the year:ending the eth April, 1840, on the finances of the , of 20 per cent., with the additional assessed taxes, they Increased the temptation for such a person to go abroad. lie finds a p'ace United Kingdom of 0,570,0001 ; they had a deficit on the revenue of India of 0,430,0001. ; they had, therefore, in the last year, i where there arc no assessed taxes, and he goes there; but he would left their position in the Government ; they found a surplus 1 not on that account engage by his (Sir R. Peel's) proposition, while of 3,000,000!. of income over expenditure ; they quitted office, and the preposition of the i Noble Lord would leave him wholly un. left a deficit, which it was his (Sir It. Peel's) duty to attempt to 1 touched. Ile (Sir It, Peel) would touch his land through the supply—a deficit of 5,000,000/.—(Hear, hear.) The difference in 1 tenant, and it' he were a fundholder, through the funds. He may : go abroad, but he would be obliged by his plan to contribute to the finances of the country, from the time they underteck the charge to the time they quitted it, was a difference, against the country of the exigencies of the country.—(bear, hear.) But by the Noble 8,000,0001 Now so far as financial difficulties were concerned, if Lard's proposal he would be induced to dismiss his establishrent, those facts could be sustantiated, had he overrated the necessities of Reduce the demand for productive labour, and go to Milan, or time country ?—(Counter cheers.) They did net deny, he appre- i Paris, or Rome. Arid in such a case the prefessim.al man, the hended, that the difficulties of India would recoil upon them; if they clergyman, and the widow would be subjected to a double pressure slid, he could convince them that time time was approaching when I from the assessed taxes—(Hear, hear)—because they may not have they would experience that the proposition could be borne out. But the means of teeing abroad, and so exempt themselves from the op.-ration of the tax.—(Hear, hear.) The pressure on those who in the time of peace, so far as their finance:l affairs were concerned, judgine by comparison from 1836, when they had a surplus of were obliged to remain would be proportional to the cause be gave revenue of 3,000,000! , they ought to have in IS4 O one of the others to go abroad. With respect to the timber duties, what s,ooo,oool.—(Hear, hear.) Theme was a Minister of this country did the Hon. Member for Coventry say, who exhibited great insight into financial matters, are who delivered his sentiments free from who in speaking of its financial affairs gave this opinion—" To the trammels of party.—(Laughter.) He sail distinctly , that et ith enter on the financial year with a deficit of 1,000,000!. was what he hoped tee Minister of this great nation would ever consent to, : respect to the timber duties be would infinitely prefer his (Sir R. Peers) proposition to that of the Noble Lord; a nd here he should and what no House of Commons woull ever sanction. The ne repeat what lie had said before, that if there was any law artiste cess:mry consequence of such a proceeding would be to make the faith of the country suspected at home, to diminish its reputatien which entered largely into consumption, and on which it was ad visable to reduce the duty, that was the article of timber. It ems. rarmed, and to place us in such a situation as would necessarily deprive us of the high and noble station which we have hitherto merest into consumption in a variety of ways, and the reduction of the duty on it would give great encouragement to local improre. held among the nations of the world." The Minister who delivered ) men• s—to the building of cottages, and other useful etnploymenta, those sentiments—speaking of the deficit of a single million—was ; , reported to be Lord John Itossell.—(Loud cheers.) And here was .and would therefore be a source of profit to the labouring classes They heard a great deal of the shipping interest as being of great (lie end of these continued deficiencies. They began with a sus. ! plus, they acknowledged the existence of that surplus to be neces- inmertance in a comm e rcial and political point of view, but what could give more encouragement to the shippirer interest tlm*rt nary for the maintenance of public credit; proposals w ere made for the remission of taxation ; at the tim e whey • increased facility in the purchase of timber. If he encour age d that speech was made they had son e such surplus the builder if ships, and enabled him to compete with the ship, I builders of the Baltic amid Canada, did he not give encouragement as 1,500,000/. ; a proposal was made to reduce the taxation bearing injuriously on the lower classes of the people; but the 'eli- Ito the employment of letiour.—(hear.) Look to the stimulus it rester of that day, sensible of the evils of deficiencies, speaking j would give to the employment of labourers in the building of cot. of the deficiency of a single year of one million, told theme that no taxes and houses, which was now materially impeded by the basher Minister, fit to govern this great countryeveuld commence the Mate- duties. lie wished they would look to time evidence regarding the cial year with a deficit, or, if he slid, he would damrge our rcpu. i effect of the dirtier duties on the cottages of the poor in leelsnd. tation abroad, snake the faith of the country suspected at home, He would ask if there was any article in respect of which a Wiwi. and would place ems in such a situation as would nesessarily deprive I tion of duty would be more advantageous. Vie Right Home us of that high and noble station, which we lied hitherto held Gentleman says —" !lake Canada an integral portion of the sin. mommegst the nations of the world.—(dleer, h oar .) H e was lure .„ lire, and yet his proposition was to levy a duty of 10s. on Gana. seren; to them a deficit of 3,000,0001. in this country ;he showed diati timber—(Heer, hear) —while he (Sir R. Peel) proposed to them a deficit in another part of the empire of e,000,0001., and yet admit it at a nominal duty, and afforded it an additional r rotoc - ion they told him that he was overrating the diflicubies of the coml. by the imposition of a tOs. duty on timber, the pro,luce of try.—(llear, hear.) Bat, then, they were not to hold dis- the Baltic.. lie admitted the value of the flight Hon. Gentleman's proposition in a financial point of view, but there were other spirited language, and to commute at these things ; they were not to say, that because there was a debt of • reasons which roistered les (Sir It. reel's) proposition more vales iim,ooo,loo/., there was DO great harm in incurring 0,000,0001. 1 able, though accompanied with a present loss to the• revenue. Well, corn then, at least the nt ujority of that House mustguage, mere of delft, for, if they did go on hoalitig this dispirited lan guage, they would be deterred front making the necessary sacrifices abandon. Truro timber, if they chose to reduce Oh. duty, they and then, indeed, the natural consequences would be that the faith mi g ht certainl y derive a revelrs, —(rlcer, hear.) Now with re- of the country would be suspected at home, and they must descend spree to sugar, the Noble Lord greatly mistook him in supp os i ng from the noble station they had hitherto held alneng the nations ' that when he referred to articles in which there had teen are loc. of the world.—(Loud cheers.) Oh ! but, said an Hon. Member, we tiomi of duty', but from which there had not been a correspond.. had no disasters. 'Flue Queen, in her speech, haul stated that . ing ieereast, of revenue, when he was attempting to show ' referritug to sugar. foreign powers and States bad gds en assurances of their disposition s r t t i t i l e:t:U pe e t t , h i e t u d ) y n :e i l id e l t i n x:.: w t t i a oln 're t l t i o e N re o a l l - i l s e c t:sr u d igmrematelyuiatilei is i tO7mk tit la i f ir r i ' l t he he to maintain tratiquiliity. Ne disaster's ! Let Ohm look to the imsesent condition id aliens in India.— (Hear, ' hear ) The disaster a selection on f ore i gn sugar n . us t b e an He had never afiried there, however, was not irreparable. It was a di-a s ter that would ilimicssteatec.ocferte'v()Telil'en.ce lie f thought that if th e y did d ea l will s suga r be repaired by the support mid vigour of their councils, are by the gallant exertions of their army. But where had the House read— they should deal wuth it by a col:side:sable reduction of the duty, not in official despatches, but even in the history of the country—of applying that reductio n to time culenial produce as well as to e. And ',shy h a t h e d ea l t so l arge ly an d lib era lly sloe) wholesale slaughter as that which private inlividuals reported heelers produc in sloe) newspaper. One individual wrote to the following effect — aid' the article of timber ? Because lie wanted to give the pi otit t f time realueuion to the cute.unicr ; and he must trey that "My life has been saved in a most wonderful manner. I he thought it inflaitely Letter to eieal on a large senile with an the only European oho lies m-caece of the Catimml army, Although we heard of some being taken by the those articles, mid to give the consumer the profit omf mielny. Two individuals only I cached this place with myself, the reduction than to take the course which was making in all only three persons who had coped—out 01 how sometimes taken of reducing the duty at a loss to the many did they suppose ? He could not bust himself to mention revenue without any profit to the consumer. He had ma vese the number. But he would ask them had they lost tell thousand doubted that time Noble Loid might make a provision tbueded on men there since the commencement of those operations P As he Prin4le, which would increase time revenue. This, however, ha had said before, the loss was not irreparable. It. did not view it must say, thot We had realised in the last year nearly as much re. in that light. Every effort ought, and should be made. They venue from sugar, in consequence of the increase of the produce should have recourse to every means which their judgment should of our colonies, as the Right HOD. Gentleman expected to realise point out, and their moral influence place at thei r coin, . from his reduction of the duty on colonial sugar. The ground ore nand—they stmuld have - recourse to i mi c rea „, e g ~,,_ . w hi c h Ile had refused to consent to the propogal of the Noble Lord ertion for the purpose of maintaining that empire was this—that he did not think, after the sacrifices we had made which rested less en physical force that) on the force of opinion. If for the abolition of the slave trade, it would be for the honour some decisive effort must be made in order to rescue the troops thot or credit of this coentry to permit the introduction of e remained to us-- so me decisive effort for the repar a ti on o f the great colonial sugar, t h e preduc of slave labour, with ou t disasters which haul occurred —the re p arati on of that national cala. an effort, at least, to secure by treaty, some corresponding ab e t, al ty, it must and shoul d be d mile ' Could t h ey not perceive the latent in time slave trade and in slavery. He had said then, and hp necessity of some decisive and vigorous; exertion for the purpose of must now repsat, though he did not close his eyes to the advantaig