The Sun. — London, England, 1820-02-19 00:00:00

the present Patliament, end it wont' be infinite ly m ore g d van t a yeow to enter upon the itive.‘ti gittion In a Legisia ,, re by which they were cer t :in to be tlelibera ely cnoclutted. Under the he culiar circumstances of the ptc , ent case, it wa' - impossible these discussions could be gone into consistewly with the public advantage ; and that . was the questioo upon which they had to c o ns ider in order to . dcterrnine 'their min d s. No measures should he proposed that there did not appear a ceritin'v of duly considered, in what was teootio of the present Parliameut. Earl GROSVENoK obset ved, he should trooblc their Lordships hut wi;lt a vci y tcty %voids upon the pres'ent occasion. Ile could not cunsisteutly approve of the proposed C ourse. It would appear there was :tit eudeavour to coerce the decision of Parliament ; and in no constitutiou point of view did it strike him that the w orosition was ilistifilhle. He xvits opilo , 3ed to the measure of Postponing, to an inch:finite peri-d . , the cow,idera tion of sichicers of theOcest nation il import ance, and e. it boat mickincz ihe least endeavour to reduce the public expendit ore. The finances of the country tvere in the lan►entable state, that no delay tritatevet shocibl tale idilee in attempting to theliotate their, As to the idea of suffering - a large a doi!ion to the tnilitary torce to remain, it ttts .elat he intts• tcgard wit;) the 1,44 1 ,e5t dissa tisfaction. Il'hy was a lar L :e toter maintained in (lii cr‘t)tttty; fat wh:it purposc CcF,l(l it now bt-..sai,: I bat it was fot the 'papist! ►of putting, down oisw.tl . ..ction r IFhev had lat‘ly heard, eiftal t ( ' 11 ""Sr" . " jug. that disaticction had hecit pot down m161)11 . 3:4)1) fpf sod) a ire addition to the at In 1.V41111(1, Were t hete no other reusi,o, ifld , ICV hint t vppOSC a line of procedure which he could not fi gr,!e sanction by his vote. The Eatl of IJLID!, , IIDILY, regarded the proposed course vs most 11111ot-evil , uteri in its nature; no solid ar ; olutcor, lie would appeal to the House, was advanced for its adotition. On all former oc casions, the Civil L st was one of the first subjects submitted to the consider atioti of l'arliatrient on demises of the Crown, rood certainly berme any thought of a dissoliiiiott was entertained. Inc subject of the hereditaty revenues of the Crown, especially that part hid), as connected with ;he Consolidated Fond, was considered as appro;,riated towards the reduelion of the public debt, was one, lie th , mglit, not only of great importance, hot to call for speedy and serious consideration. lo this view ,he Noble Earl seemed to regard the livanch of Revenue, as it was affected by a demise of the Crown ; and in some degree, as to its liability to be accounted fur tf. his Al-jesty's heirs. The (pteß liOn of the deFcencieS of the Consohlated Food was of saperlative imi•ortance, and bore mate rially on the present qoestion. Th , Etrl o 1 CARNARVON e xpressed his opinion, that there was something as yet unanswered by Alinisters . , which they did not at present wish to bring forward, that induced their adoption of the proposed course. They certainly did not slew aft v clear or distinct reason for their departure from all former pieerdcrit. Nlany most important points in the public business might easily be dis posed of it) mo long interval. For iostance, 111 another place a Bill lay over for transferting the Elective Franchise from one Botoligh convicted Of corroption to some other place, and this was declared by a deliberate vote of that !loose, and this salutary -measure would thus be passed over. 0-u the whole, he thought more public l o coovenience would result from a present dis solution of Parliament than could possibly en . sne from its postponement for some time longer. ' Earl BATHURST argued ably in support of what was advanced by Noble Lords in favour of the proposed course of proceedivg. The cases which were adduced at the expiration of fotmer reigns as precedents, lie contended, were not fairly is point to the present ; the circumstances were, in many points, greatly. dissimilar. The present agi'atiou which prevailed in the public mind from the near prospect of a new Election, was such as rendered it advisable not to postpone that important mea sure longer than was unavoidable; indeed, the present state and nature of the public business was - such as clearly to point out the necessity of a speedy general Election. Lord KING was of opinion, that the measure of au immediate dissolution would not bring together a new Parliament at an earlier period than that to which tlie present Pat liament may with pro priety be continued. Besides, in the case of a new Parliament, the great subjects alluded to could not be brought forward hut at a period or season of the year in which a full and adequate attendance of Nlembers could not lie hoped tor. In every former case of a demise the Civil List was proceeded upon withoot delay ; and the question of the Hereditary-Crown Revenues was one which be thought peculiarly called for the speedy attention of Parliament, especially as a portion of them was held-to expire on a demise of the Crown. As tar as the Civil List was con cerned, lie deetned it distespectful to the Crown rhos to postpone i;s atrangernent. The LORD.CIIANCELLOR argued that the Noble Lords who opposed the proposition' before the House, had taken a very erroneous view at the grounds upon which the advisers of the Crown proceeded. By the ancient law and constitution of the country, Parliament was ipso facto dissolv ed by the demise of the Crown. The regulation which extended i.s duration, subject to the dis cretion of the reigning Prince, to the length of six months, was merely intended to promote • the public convenience or the public interest Therefore, when it dearly appeared that Par liament •could not be usefully continued to the extent allowed, it certaiuly was never the intention that it should necessarily exist for that • time. In every case the Constitutional Preroga tive of the Crown was carefully reserved, and the a pplication of its exercise could never depend up on the sense of Parliament. Its purpose could never coustitutionally be thwarted by Parliament, and it was not for the latter to take upon itself lo say, that :he Crown should not dissolve Parlia !Dent, or throw insuperable o b stac les in the way of its exercises. 'Jowl these convictions he felt it hi , duty to s upport the motion lot the Address. The Marquess of La Ns6OWNV, and the Earl of LIVRePooL spoke shortly in explanation ; in which the Noble Minister observed, that 'Parliament, by the adoption of temporary measures, might pre clude the possibility of injury resulting to the ptiblic service in the interval which must unavoid ably take place between the dissolution of the present and the assembling of a new Parli,stnent. The question was then put, the Address was voted, and ordered to be presented to his Majesty by ;lie Lords with ►ehite staves, and the Hokise adjourned till Monday. HOUSE OF CONIMONS. About forty I\lf-whirs took the oaths, if monv, Whom were Sir R. Petri, Sir J. Stewart, Lord J. t•evvart-, Lord Gower, Lord Joeviyo, Lord Low ther, Lord Arivy, Sir W. Curtis, INsOLVENT DEBTORS' ACT. Sir W. Cul:TiS presented a petition from the Debtors in the New Priaon, Wititecross-street, l'idYiti; for a tent« al of the Insolvent Debtors' Act.—Ordered to lie on-the table. Mr. Aittucttom%Y presented a petition from the Debtors in .he Kiog's Bench iSon, praying that the present law respecting Insolvent Debtors !tiny be continued. 'lilt wounds on which this prayer rested he viewed as unquestionalte goOd. The Petitiooets stated, that hen the bill of last year was brought to and passed for the tortber COO tinuantt of the insolvent Debtots' Art, (which would expire on the 23d of next month,) it xsaa eiaatly the object of the Legislature, when the suhieet was next taken up, to enter ()pun it with three toll effective m onths befote them to discuss and mature the itea•:oce propoaeol to be introduc ed hy a Noble Lord. He hoped the Gentlemen' opposi(e, in their anxiety to (IMolve the present Parliament, dttl not ott::nt to dissolve all - the laws respecting lusol-vent D.lttots.• To him it appear ed that no serious olij,ction could be opposed to the prayer of the petition. 'Flue CHANCFI.LOR of the ENCHRQUER thought, whatever might be the state of the House, there coulti he no objection to attend to the prayer of this petition. The subject was one of great im portance. lle for his part had hero much iu tak eout- o f t h a t Bill to which so many objections had been made. He felt obliged to the Noble Lord (Altborpe) who had brought forward a 14 , 11 to supply a remedy to those inconveniences witich had been tat tar atise trout it, and hoped that he would persevere in his labotos to accomplish an obj,et so inaportaht. It was, however, due to himself and his colleagues to state, that this sub ject had not escaped their notice. 'fury had had it iu contemplation to bring in a Bill to Continue the present Act for a short period. Lord ALTHORPE consideted the present Act to be highly detrimental to the country. He was of opinion that they would be much more likely to (I() good by begiottiti.: de novo, (hall by continu ing the preseta Act, and bringing forward altera tions upon it. He woult: rather that the present Act should he .offered to expire, that rite Bill which he wished to htiug forward might be in troduced as a new measure. The Petition was then ordeted to lie nit the table. Sir NV. Dc CRESPIGNY presented a petition Irons a Tradesman who hint) taken the Chair at certain Parish Meetings at Newington, in Surrey, and who had been the means of discovering and of punishing great frauds on the part of the Col , lector of King's Taxes in that parish. The Col lector hail been lined 10001. tilt ()ugh the exertions of the petitioner, who had been very inadequately remunerated for what he had done, as lie had re ceiied trot') the Commissionets only 1501. for his trouble. lie thetefore prayed for ju s tice. Ordered to lie on the table. commiTTEE ON 'CRIMINAL LAWS. Mr. F. BUXTON said, the Chairman of the Committee on Criminal LAWS last year had given notice, b rote the Recess, of a motion for reviv ing that Cumn►it►ee, hut some .circhmstances. had then arisen which caused it to be doubted. whe ther there woi►ld then be time. to revive it. The Chairman of drat Committee bad now desired him to postpone the motion for the revival of the Com mittee, in consideration of the present situation of the country. Doing this, he would take the li berty to state, for the information of Gentlemen in that [lousy, .and for the information of a large portion of the conimunity, who took an interest in the labours of-that Committee, that it was the intet►tion of the Hon. Member with whom it had originated, to seek an early opportunity of resum ing his tabours, and he had no doubt he would pursue them with all that zeal and ability by which he had been distinguished in the last Session of Parliament: MISCELLANEOUS. Dr. PHILLIMORE postponed the second rending - of the Maninge Amendment Bill till Friday next. On the Motion of Sir W. LEMON, lICCOUHIS of the Copper exported wiihin the last year were or dered to be laid before the [louse. The Committee of Supply and Ways and Means was postponed till Monday. Mr. HUTCHINSON, from the Bank of England, presented accounts of the Balances of Cash in.the hands of the Bank.--)rdered to be printed. Mr. PAYNE, ItOM the City of London, pre sented a return of :II Vagrants committed to .t he Gaols of the Ciry; from the Ist January 1819, to the Ist January 1520; distinguishing the pri sons to which they had been committed, and -the expence incurred on their account.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. YATES, from the Pay Office, presented ac counts of the total e xpenditure of the yeats 1799 and 1813, and the sums voted fur that Depart ment in•lBl9.—Oidered to lie on the table. TETE KING'S' MESSAGE. Lord CASTLEIthAGH 1110t ; cd, that the Order of the Day for taking his Majesty's most gracious Message into consideration should be read. The Message was then real by the'ClelL Lord CASTLEREAGH, in rising to move an Ad dress to his Majesty - on the most gracious Mes sage which had just been - read, thought it might be convenient to the [louse drat he should now state to them the course which Ministers were of opinion, in the present sate of the country, it would be most expedient to pursue. It would strike the House that the situation of the country Was different trom what it might hay.e been 'on the demise of the Crown. - In the present instance, the great mass of the business of the year in Par. liontent had not been entered •upon. Th.it which had occupied them before the Recess related a l. m ost wholly to particular matters, totally uncoil cted will: the ordinal y business of the Session. Under these circumstances a dissulutiun ut Par- lianvent was thought advisable. it was obvious that but two courses were open to Ministers ; ei ther they most ptoceed, with the existing Parlia ment, to go theOugh the whole business of the Session, which might occasion some difficulty, as their existence could not be prolonged ; or a part of it only must be brought before them, and the remainder reserved for a newt , Parliament. It was thought that it would be extremely unfair in the Government tp select any part of the business to bring before them, and if it• were attempted to submit to them the whole, the Crown might he placed in a very awkward situation, from being obliged to cut their proceedings prematurely short by a Dissolution. The alternative, that on which they had to decide, was, either to bring the whole business of the year before the present Parliament, or none. Placed in this situation, and looking at tho'se alterations which it was necessary to propose to certain laws, it had beili thought that any measure [nought in for such a purpose, dia log the continuance of the present Parliament, would not be regarded with the same view to its continuance, as the same measure would if adopt ed in a new Parliament. On this ground a Dis solution might appear to be in some respects de- Sirable, and lie had no difficulty in saying, that the public interest, the public morals, and, he might add, the public tranquillity, all called upon them riot to leave the country -open for any ex tended period to that agitation which must grow on the expectation of a General Election. With th;:, i m p re ssion on their minds, his Majesty's Mi nist.rs had decided oh doing the business of the year in a new Parliament, and had therefore ad vised his Majesty to dissolve the present. He was aware that it had been common for the Patliatneut first sitting after the demise of the King, to make a provision for the Crown, and for a great pro portion of the Civil List of the Country. Under circumstances different from those in which the country was now placed, it would have been their wish that this precedent s hould have been followed on the present occasion. Butt, on con sidering the subject, a variety of objections had presented themselves. In the first place, it was felt that some time must elapse before Ministers could be prepared to submit to the HOuse any proposition on the subject of the Civil List, and it was, then, to be remembered, that the House might requite some time also to make up their mind to ally arrangement that might be suggest ed. Thus a considerable period might elapse before the subject could be disposed of, and Mi nisters did not think that they could venture on such a course without the risk of placing the House in a very awkward situation—without a chance of being obliged to cut short their dis cussions, and leave a part of the arrangement to be completed by a new Parliament. To him it appeared that nothing could be more inconve nient than to drive'off the consideration of this subject to that period of the year when a full at. tendance was not to be expected ; and in the next few months they could hardly look for a calm and full discussion of this question. That constant and steady attendance which could be wished for was not to be calculated upon, while Gentlemen were naturally looking with anxiety to what wag so immediately connected with their own interests as the coming election. It was, tberdure thought best that the business of the year should be traps acted in a new Parliament ; this was accotdingly advised, and it was thought the fairest course that could be taken was to notify this to the House, that they might be aware of the views and inten tion of Government. He would stow proceed to state the particular course which it was intended to pursue. With respect to the private business, it was now nearly in the same situation in which it had stood on the occasion of a former dissolu tion. At I hat time an arrangement was made for re surnieg the prosecution of chat businessoaking it op in the new Parliament in the same stage at which it bad arrived when the old 'Parliament was dissolv ed. The precedent it was proposed to follow in the present instance ; and it wbuld be satisfac tory for the House to know, that in this way they might avoid making it the cause of any private in convenience. With respect to the public business, Government wished to place the new Parliament as nearly as possible in the sante state as the pre sent at its termination. He understood that the grants already made were sufficient t'o carry on the public service during the interval that must elapse before the new Parliament could meet They proposed then to continue the Mutiny Bill to the 25th of June. Such Bills as would expire previous to the 25th of June they also meant to continue in force up to that period ; and adopting this course, the new Parliament would find itself as nearly as possible in the same situation with the present. Shook) that course of proceeding be adopted, which Ministers were disposed to recom mend, they might rise by the end of the present month. If the dissolution took place by the Ist of March, the new Petliament might meet on or about the 25th of. April, and at that time the pub lie business .might be entered upon with a pros pect of such an attendance as its importance requir ed. lie was not a ware that he bad any thing more to state to the House, but he should be happy to afford anv information in his power that might be demanded, and to answer any question that might be asked from the opposite side of the House. He then concluded by moving an Ad dress, thanking his Majesty for his gracious Corn• munication, anti assuring, him of their readiness to adopt such measures as the situation of the coun try might demand. Mr. TIERNEY did not intend to trespass long on the House. lucked lie hat: hardly any thing in the world to state, from the surprize that he had felt after what he had heard—that the House was to rise by the Ist, of March, and that in the mean time such and such utrasures %vete neces sary to be adopted. A Communica tio n like that which they had now received had never occurred on the accession of any. Monarch since the Ite volutioo. The Home had always been treated in a different way. In all former cases, it had been common for a speech to be Made front the fhron , , setting forth the feelings of the new Monarch, and stating .what be meant to do. All this was dispensed with now, anti. the King was advised to do nothing more than tell thernalryly, that they ought tttl uo It , s-sent very speedily about their bu siness. He did not say that exactly the same course ought 'to be taken that had been pursued on former occasions, but still he thought more might have been done than bad been done. The only notice taken of the House was that to which • he had alluded, and which announced their diesel. lotion to be at hand. To him this appeared soase• what indecorous, hut there was another objection to it. He was much inclined to think that the course which bad been trues-wed was unconstints-• (lanai. On all former occasions the King bad - been made. to express a hope that his Common. would make gaol those hereditary funds which had failed with the death at his predecessor, and which it was for them to supply. This went to recognize a right in the Commons to make that provision which was essential to sustain the splett• dour of the Throne, and this right ought, in his opinion, to' be distinctly recognized, as he could not forget that there were some who contended that the hereditary revenues of the Sovereign be had a right to claim and to enjoy without being subject to the control of Parliament. He denied that the revenues enjoyed by the Sovereign were to be considered. There were - certainly soma • hereditary revenues which the King might claim of right, but those usually voted by the Commona were not of this description. In the last case of a demise of the Crown, the new King had called on Parliament in the first instance to make that provision which was necessary to maintain the splendour of the Throne. Could any one doubt. trout the course now pursued, that there was a something behind which- it was not intended should immediately come out, Since Minister* had departed so widely from the ordinary courses it could not be doubted that they had some gout& reason for not bringing forward the Civil Lis t now as had been done on all former occasions. -- ' The Noble Lord had said that it would take t hetas. so much time to prepare for submitting to the House a question on the subject of rite Civil List' that it could not be thought of at present. Nolt this he thought very odd, as, within the last too t or five years, a very voluminous report had bees produced (in 1816) at the suggestion of Mini' stet's, by which these matters were placed On a new footing. This the House had been told tea' to remove all difficulties on the subject ; yet no° to bring forward the Civil List, at the commenc e. ment of a new reign, they Nvere given to n otice!' stand was more dif fi cult their ever. He then re' verted to the course which had commonly bee° taken in former times, and desired to know vvtO f difficulty could really lie in the way of bringig in a Bill on the precedent that bad been es t "' blished, to continue the Civil List on its 1: sent footing, if !hat of the new King were in(en7; • ed to be the same. The Noble Lord had it' them that much inconvenience would he sittiete" if the House did not rise by the Ist of Ma k ; He (Mr. Tierney) wished to kno w wh y the p ubil business could not be gone thiough with in , s l ie next six mouths ? But now to go on , the Isiouio Lord had round out would be to t ake the t business at a most inconvenient ttitae,aud also, tli j 2 o tt,e proper time for entering upou would be bc M ginoing of ay. Hitherto this had trot e e s .' tie case. At tilat time, the attendance :0„1 found to fall off, and the most convenient P eri „ h for proceeding with, the principai public bu siro— io t a s ,oppo k ed to arrive before Easter. When At Noble Lord spoke - of the necessity of b a lit the dissolution at the time he mr - ntione"! • ovet looked the situation of the Countre tttlt manner that must excite surprise. Good Gl o g did lie forget the Assizes ? Uici lie not kw ,, '' the Assizes would be taking place all ove r ! 0 $ country at the time that it was proposed .t o brl to on a Genera Election ? If it were Wishe't find one period inure inconvenient than anotiee, at which a General Election should take Piticej chi; was tlie. period which it might be supPso.,' Wright be 5 , 1 , teed. When such a course wa91)01,0 sued, every one mast be satisfied that there to .. some good reason for it—that there was mot e ,' f it hind than Ministers thought proper to state- jos himself-personaily, as the dissolution m ust t o , place soon,.he would rather that it shouia art tuorronvt ban that it should stand over for a time ; but still, he could not that tit 01- 0 0 be most incon-,:enient for the country gene :'{° that it should take place at the time propose t " e jia r eturn to the subject of the Civil L'st ; or e no t exactly nutlerstand whether it was pf"e„be to make any grant at all previous to the 04 " lion of Parliament. It would be well tlO t atf should be stated, that they might know hoW bd w er e going on. Was any giattt intende d l° • moved ? Lord CASTLEREAGH replied in the arti rms ti4l" Ft' Mr. TIERNEY then desired to know it it 05 tended to take a vote of credit ? it, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sta r ;ti was his intention to m ove f or a g rant to 1 1 ' 4 4 7 10 the expences of the Civil List to the April, taking the amount to be the s4one -4 " E present. fire Mr. TIERNEy understood from the Noble —dot!. that when the time !velum(' by the Right job' Gentleman should arrive, the new 1 ) 4'0 1°3 0 would not be assemhltd, and Smile tim e f o s t il , elapse during whic h the Crown would po gie ; - ,r ol' funds over which V. , iliartrent had any It mattered not wheth er t he period Were A - t ilt' a month, or a year ; he held it to beoncol"fia, tional for the Cl own thus to be left in a sii:3osd':•: which felnoveci it front the controld of !bat 1.1f:leel and ‘s as there any n e cessity f o r this It ; ttl was, he conld not see h. If there were 0 avoidable difficulty , he shmild wish to eniciPeciti nivers to get oot of it. But, in the prei el't the they were . rutinit , g into a difficulty wher e h od was no occasion for i t, and he wished „ why they should do this, an d ob j ect to "rircif ordinary course o f pr o p osin g a tote for 5 stills on account of the Civil List. • It wa g that the Noble Lord urge d those ohjectili:o! this course which he h ad stated to the 13 1 :s It had not been shown that any alteo64)!l the . Civil List were necessary. L s Lie C"'" ee that any were necessary, 'any that some expences might be taken 1 - consequence of the demise of the 0:4-0. 1-le, when be saw such c onduct on the r, 4 'Ministers, could ' only c o m e to• •thi's Col";ro, that there was SOlnething behind colote'c' tr .the Civil List, whiCh they did not - tv .oll spire. lie did notrneati to enlirge th e o l ject, as he could not expeet . to be listenol: 4 much attention, for he knew that 6°l' 'P! . a net di ; a G Ilt