The Sun. — London, England, 1820-05-06 00:00:00

ftie refrooled, Cum alie - only lEgat way iii *Lich -such grives tizri teen made 'eves under the au thority of the 'Great or Privy Seal ; the grant watch been made he considered extraordinary tiro; ; And (saki he) if you, Lord Ashley, -depend on as eieeption by receiving a grant tinder the sign manual, you may live to repent that you did so " Ile had stated thus much to., shov% th,at . the Cr.own . lrad ,no property nide per;deot ttf -fiatliaintnt- by thd aucivut law of Eneland, and could make no issue but in the way which he had described. The first en crreiehment made on the ancient law of the hind Was by 1111 r Pitt, io the thirty-ninth of the ring in 1790. The King was then authorised to drat with the property of the Crown as any in • divi , lual would deal with his own private property. '11, 2 old e y 3 : .ero was completely upset by this pro reeding, and while Ministers talked of supporting the (14:tiny of the Sovereign, they took a course :tvltcli would tiat'e been regarded by Lord Claren don, awl by th, Lawyers and Statesmen of other days, as little s tint of plotanation of his name. What wonld they have said to bilk that weal to tionottise the King not only to dispose of the Crown Lands, but to will away all the money coigne :imas., or all the lands he could putt:hose wit!: it. lie was co:shied to devise, to give. Lo enciiruhrr. to alienate, to grant to fa vont-ices, cvt n to enemies, and to defeat the true p o li c y w chi state, and pro twitu. to set the I T .ticti of the I-louse of Commons at defiloce. This was in a Mantic! '0 enable the ping to set Parliament at defiance; but what would !hose to whotu he had 'alluded have s a id when Ministers %.vent- a step farther, by actually giving -nowt rs to the 'Cron n to hold copvuolds. Ttst Kin g tvas en ,bled to hold an estate as a copyhold of.one of hi. fy.vo to bj ec r s . Af ter t hi s would they talk of maintain ing the dignity of he S-vereign, .nd urge this as a reason for not going into the enqeiry which he had suggested at the commencement of a new rcie,n %Vitt, respect to the food in tricetion, he did not propose to take ally thiog from it without making the.Crowu an acteariate compensation. lu ancient times, it was known that the revenues at from the Crown Lands ant) other. lands, were given to the Crown not only to provide for the splendour of the Monarch, but to cover all the (Weer services of the State. It was only when circumstances made it necessary fur the Sovereign to conic to P.lrliameot for the means of Betraying . expetiees which the foods placed at his disposal were not adtcplate to Meet, that this encieot system was departed from ; he knew it had been most useful the conntry and on these inces santly root niog wants on the part of the Crown,he cot ieered all our liberties to depend. That system of leaving the Clowo to provide for all the exi gences of the Suite had been gradually alien-. do tt ed. The ti e red 4ry revenues ~ad been merged in the provision ronstitutionally made by Parlia• mew, end the rev, one of the Crown was fixed on a ditlet Mt too' lug. Jo those times to whirls he had alluded, the provision made for the Monarch had ow been granted for his personal enjoymeat, but to c; ,,,!fl e I stn to de fray the expellee of certain services • eecessary to .be perfoi riled for the benefit and secotity of the S!ate. L-01l Coke, speaking on the subject ut wrecks, said, the reason why that species of ro- perry was vested in the Crown was this—that the King was bound to keep the . tow ow seas ckar of pirates, arid deterul lire coast.. Th!s was also the re.ason why •the King was ell itied to cro , vo fishes and other spccies of property known as Droits. Mr. Justice. Crav% ley had said of crow!, fishes, that be considered them to be too small to belong to the King as CoNtos o! the nar• Tow seas : What would Mr. Joo s a id had he lived in our times when nothing - was tiorught too smoll tor the Crown—when eery thing was regarded as a Droit.from the enormous whale down to the tail of a sturgeon ; and when from such sources the sum of nine midions seven hundred thousand pounds bad been gained in one reign 2 Great changes had taken place: The Crown tVA , _ , nu logger required to clear the seas of pj ,, :tes, or defend the Cu(t,s out of its own fonds. o.re aver another, all the :services of this sort which the Crown had once been fleeted io lser fQrrrr, had been taken tr ., l ay from it, and placed on the shoulders of the people; and yet it bad so happened, that when the defence of the coasts, and the keeping the narrow sea clear orpirates, were no knger lett to the Crown, the sum of, Oil teen millions seven hundred thousand pounds Lad been received as Droits in the course of a single riign ; and this he begged to state was the hegioniug, the middle, and end of his argument. Aware that " great injustice often resulted from a too rigorous pursuance of the line of :Justice," he did not wish to deal too severely fay the present system. Prudence required that when a certain state of things had been balanced in a particular Way for ages, the system should not be overturn ed because the principles on wiach it had been formed were not those which ought to have been originally adopted. He wished nothi:ig to be token from the Crown without making a suit able compensation. He wished for an ar rangement to take place somewhat similar to that which had been made between the people and a great public body, its what he regarded as a parallel .case. It he showed that such a course as he wished to see taken .between the King and the People had already. been taken, where the People and the Chalet, of England ,vele concerned, he draught it must be admitted that there was some solidity in his argument. It was well known that Tithes were not originally the pronerty of the Chinch—that they were not ap propriated to its own use. The Parson, or who ever received them, was burdened with the charge of maintaining the poor. By degrees the Funds taised as Tithes became insufficient to cover the wxpence, and this was especially felt atter the dissolution of the Monasteries in the reign of Ilenty the• Eightlr, it was itt consequence not tivroght right to burden the Clergy with the maintenance of the poor acc , rding to the letter of the law, and , the claim 011 the tithes for that pur pose was tacitly (anti essay tacitly), abandoned.— iiere then was a case in point. Tire Church had been burdened nit!) the maintenance of the poor out of die tithes ; the Crown had been charged will, the defence of the State, in consideration of the hinds placed under its controtil. In both eases; step by step, the burdens that the Church and Crotr - o Led tei elialaila heti been reit:woe4. the Church had alt tonsetpieece made an erreugement with the nntiiiti; by *fah for a just compensation it gave up what /,t had Used to claim ; and what he would now .propose was, that' a similar course shieuld be taken with respect to the Crown. Hee l would propose such a compensation for any thing • Aitken from the Crown, as should be fair and res.: imitable towards the Monarch e and consistent with the means, and with the existing burdens of the people. 1-low this was Co be done, or to what amount, or in what way the details of the plan should he arranged, were questions on which he would not now trouble the House ; as at present his only object was prevail upon them to cons sent to some general arrangement, like. that which he had suggested. He perhaps unlit to state, what he thought every one acquainted with the Civil List most admit, •hat a worse arrangerftent than the present, and one more difficult to be un derstood, could hardly be devised ; and the mode in which he world propose that it should be ad justed for the time to come would add to the real ! comfort and dignity of the Crown. Soppose any man, not versed in these matters, should inquire whet annual sum was set apart for the King of Eng feed ) A person, not a Member of that Ijiusse, ur a financier, could hardly answer that (pest ioe in half en home It could at once be toll what was the revenue of the King of France, what the provision s n aule for the Preetdeet of the United States Of America, and what eves formerly the income of the Dutch Sted:holder ; but wilat was leeched by the British i\lotterch for tl,e sap purr of his Crown and dignity, no man who was not an adept in finance conid tell. Fatal, at least ver y i e j er ioust e sults, had occurred in coe seqeence of rhii complexity, and mistakes and mismanagement 'still more fatal could be traced to the saute source. Ise w‘eild give an instance of both, and "it would then be for the Mouse 0► de termine how far it would he expedient to adhere 'o the old confesed and Gothic arrangenont 11Then Vine wrote hie book, he described the King of England to be the mast expeesive ()dicer io Europe, as hue received eight or nine hundred thousetid pounds per annum fur doing what lie (Paine) would engage to fi,el an able-hodied man to do for 5001. a-year. The evil of this tees, that though many might disapprove of Peiee's cor• reel nesse and • charge him with overstating the facts, yet it was not easy '0 prove, wilco he stated the incotne of the Sovereign to be from 500,0001. to 1 ,000,00 W. per :minim, that lie ad. vanced that which was not true. Suppose some one to Say " How Pelee misrepresents things!" what would be Ole answer ) It would be replied that the Red - Book showed such sums to be an• totally voted foe the Civil List. " Oh!" the first might say " hut there sire other things included in that besides the maintenance of the Sovereign . anti the Royal family." " Whitt are they his antagenito would ask, and there the other would he stooped, for 130 one but the Chancellor of the Exchequer (who was not likely to be engaged in any such dialogue). could give a proper. answer. He did not even know that the Right Honour able Gentleman could answer it. some mie,ht he able to do so, hitt it was cot one in a !hots sand—not one in nee hundred thonsatol„ that could, so as to prove the falsehood of the at at etneut in a satisfactory manner. The wording of the Ci vil List Act he thooglit very exceptionable, 'lt was intided " An Art for the better supeorting his M a j est y's h o esehold, and the honour anti dignity of the Crown." This made against this party who might be disposed to ansoer Paine ; and looking at this, it was ndt ease to deny on the instant what he had advanced. tie, as one of the . Ministers of the Crown—of the friends to the dig. nity, and of the advocates for the tights of the Sovereign, wetild ask was this giving him fair play, when the little he received (for it was but little compared with the aggregate of the sums connected with it) teas thus mixed up with the salaries given to his Judges, his Secretaries, his Chancellor of the Exchequer, his Foreign Minis ters, and many other Officers, together with con tingent expences, and charges which it wroth! be beneath the dignity of the sithject to name—he put it to them if they dish not shake the dimity of their Sovereign, by Otos connecting him with such an arrangeMent But, perhaps, he should be told that it was necessary that the old myste ' riont course should . go on. He would, however, ask them, it they would tint prefer knowing the charges'-el--their baker, their buieher, Bt e .,. t h e 'profits-ov tosses of their farms—in a word, if they would not prefer being enabled to see dietinctly what they gained or lust, to having the whole tidied fogether she ildvice of the Chancel her of the Exchequer real, not to separate the parts of the Civilthat List, so the whole might be easily understood ; but to jemble the whole together, so that it should require an able finan cier to tell what was paid for one till -rot, anti what for another. But then it was said, that the dig nity of the Crown required that the Severeign should not he paid like any other Officer in the State. He,. however, was ofopinion, that, the popu larity of a new arrangement ought to be set against its want tat dignity ; and this reflection, he hoped, would induce them to give up the Gothic system at present established. Bust what dignity would be compromised by the course which he lied pro pwed / \Vas it a greater insult to the King that he should be paid largely, haedsomely, and cheer fully by his people, in the conviction that their destiny was u inseparably bound op with his, by a grant from the Consolidated Fund, than that he should be mixed up with his officers, as he was at present, in the Civil List The Chancellor oJ the Exchequer seemed to think that in obscurity there must be something sublime; but its a prying age like this it would be thought that the 1140.fialetes di g nity was (rite as mut it constilted by making him a grant from the Consolidated Fund, as by giving him a peony on » gallon of tile, or a half penny on a gallon of whiskey. Yet by this our ancestors had not meant to iosult their Monarchs, nor had he felt himself degraded. lie slow came to consider the mismanagement of the Civil List. The Princes of the ltoyel received their allowance's partly from one fund apd pertly front another. The Sovereigns himself had been re commended by a Committee of that flohse, in stead of goiug to other tends for it, to take a whole 100,0001, out of the Consolidated Fund. They had thuugh.t it oo degradation to their 6u• . er rig-ti to rettitinieend this course to Lim, inOcae of going on in the old way with the sacred, mys terious, acid obscure Civil List. le that lisi found a great variety of persems included. Look ing AL page 64 of the appendix, he found there wal the Vicar of the Towel. He wished other 'persons in the list were as cheap. He cost the country annoally 11. 135. 4tl. He would recom mend him as an example. This was one of the dignitaries of the Civil List, He was in the seventh class. Then there was the Minister of St Botolph, Aidgate, who received the annual amount of 11. 15s. Prom these, deseending to the officers of the Vestry, who were very useful, . but had not so much dignity as others in the list, he found the Chorchwertien of the Church of St. John the Baptist e a Schoolmaster, and another person received stuns of 11. 31. and five pounds yearly. The Ark itcelf• did not contain a greater variety of beings than were to be found ice the Civil foist. There was no ela'ts, no Corporation, which did not fluids!) it wi h a specimen : Lay Lawyers, sod Secular Clergy, were there. The two Universities con' rihuo d 16 it-e-Preachers, Professors, and Fellows. Then there seas the Mayor of Macclesfield--e•Enelish +11)(1 Foreign Mi nisters—the Prote,sor r,t &IVA Mini-ter of the Isle of Man---an Astronomer—e Geneelegiso--ea Chaplain of the Gerter-e-t Master of the Hawks---a Maser the Ceremoiliese-ea Knight's Harhineer Loin : Secretary 15.iier of the Black [toil--a Master of Mechanics — an d an Excheqeer Watchman. tie know whether the Chancellor of tire Exchequer was acquainted with the person last mentioned, tw•o it appeared received for Ws vigilance but the annual soot of one hundred and eigh When he went on with the List he came to other Watchmen of the Exchaquer who received their thousands yearly. Theie he did not grudge them it they %vete fai hitt' guardians of the ExcheTter ; but he , ‘ished tot an at ra,igement that should en able honest, well intentioned men to disr.harge their duty kitty. This he would defy them 'o do so hung as the Civil List continued to be the con falser, inexplicable mass which it was at present. His no•ion was, that a liberal grain - should be msde at once for the King and Royal Family.— He proposed that this should he nietle, (slice for all, to continue not merely doting the life of the King (tor it was useless to make such a provision), till, by consent. of both ;emirs, it should again be altered, when it should no longer appear fit and equitable. What he meant was this, that the arrangement now to be 'Tole should continue in force till, - from the :alteration in the prices of things, .it' shoulri be necessary to change it. To make it fur the life of the King appeared to him ridiculous. The late reign happily extended to sixty years, and in the course- of that lime from particular circumstances, it became necessat y to I make six new arrangements, besides payiog off: the debts of the Civti List eight times- But had: the late King died in 1769 instead of living tall Is2o, it would be seen that the arrangement madel when he ascended the Throne would not have co-1 vered the expellees up to that period. In 1777 an additional 100.0001. was found necessary ; but in the former year, in 1769, a debt of 500,0001. had been cotoracteo. This proved that there was no sense in making an ar rangerneto for the life of the Suveleigt). It that life proved short, it might he eitough—if long, it mieht prove itisuftieieut,; therefore, the only ra tional wily was to Make the arrangement indepen dent of the lite or the Monateh, separating from! the Civil List the Judges' salaries, the Trea sury selatiev e those of the Foreign Ministers, the bills of incidents, &c. anti keeping all the contin gent expences which ought in most cases only to be incurred on estimates "filst given in. In :he: bills of incidents there appeared some etoirmottsl charges. He would not say the sums there ex- I pearled were ill bestowed, butt lie thought it likely that some of the charges would never have appea - red, bad an estimate of them been first given in. For thea oils of the Crown, he cisetlel not big object to them. He thought a loud of thattiescription might be much perverted io bad limes. He was not bound to shew th at the'Droits had ever been misapplied. eth icwhen such large star4s- came to the Crown, as sometimes accrued fropethis source. it was clear that they itileht•he Used in a way mast injurious to the best interests of the country. }ti the year 1507, the SUM of 113,04301. devolved to the 'King, in consequence of the death of a lona-. • tic. In INS, a sum of 49,0'001. -came to the (;rowan; through its former possessor..rlying with out an heir.. tu 1809, the sum of 62,000/. came to the Crown in- the same way. Such sums cran ing unexpectedly into the uncontrolled possession at the Crown, at the eta of is General-Election, it was obvious might he misapplied. He then enume rated the sums which in other years had accrued to the Crown in various ways. At one time, at or about the tiihe the proceeds of the Diode prizes were received, a sum of 1.00 000/. came to the Crown ; and at another pet iod, when the Spanish condemnations took place, the amount of the fonds placed in the Monarch's hands was no I less then 2,200-,000/. In 1806, the King bad graciously sent a Message to that House; stat ing, that in consequence of the distress occasioned by the continuance of the war) lie hail determined on granting the sum sst 100,0001. nut of the Droits of the Crowe. I in aid of the Ways and Means of the year.— For this, that House, as in duty bound. returned a loyal and dutiful AddreSs, expressing their gratitude for the sum thus advanced by his Meles-' :ty. Did he charge the House with obequions , ness, or with performing a writ k of eupereroga lion for the course they took on that occasion No—hut he could nor help thinking that'our an cestors would have stared at witnessing a state of things so completely reversing what had been the course of peoceediag between King and Parlia ment an their days. What would they have thought,_it,. Instead of seeing the King ask-fur a subsidy or a betaevolence—a 10-di or a 15th, they had beheld him giving a. million of money to them, from whom it was Wi itren in the constitution of • this count' y e LI sacred characters, all pecattiary supplies were to. come AllOl her part-of the Re. venues at the disposal of the Crown demanded notice—he al'oded to the foto audit half pet cent. tlitries raised in thei •land of Ratbadoes a nd th e • , Leeward Islands. These the Crown had the power of bestowiog for good or for b.ed services or front tardstritistit, Or hn servicee at ail. li.e Dr()its tic' cruing from time to dine to the Ciowo might be . most mischievously employed. He did not say that they had been so employed, it wes etiougli tor him if he made out the possibility of their being improperly applied. It any persons ren dered a great military or naval servic , —in a case like that 'of Earl St. Vincent, or Lord Hutchinson, or where the heirs of a Nelson were to he pro vided tor, the Ministers felt that they would neg lect their duty it they were not to bring their cases under Ye consideration of Parliament ; Ord accordingly they came down to that House, an'l .called lire attention of Parliament to their merits' But they might not do so to those who were fa voured, anti who hart not defeated the French itt Egypt, or destroyed the Spanish fleet off Cadiz. Jr they were to co so, they knew that the mmoioa would be less popular, and ihe House to which it was proposed less unaniorous, (ha u it would in all probability be in the other cases, and knowing that ,Ministers would be more !clue:ant to come for such gratos to the House than They were tot sanction thrill, it they could be made to another way. In the case of :he Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, or in that of Lord Grenville, they might out so come down to the Ronne, hot could perm" slot; off by means of tio•se nlmmits. He rid nor mean to s a y, tlott the peroimmos of the Right lion. Gomtlernan and Lod Grenville were but well de ,•erved.—(Hear, (rear, hoar ! from an Honourable Member on the Unpositimor side of the 11.01,..)---'; There was a proof of what he was saying. oils Honourable Friend cheered sViiii( he had just said, hut there were tto cheers whet) Ire mentioned the names of Ell I Sr. Vincent and Lord Hutchinson. His honourable F. tend would perh , ps have sew courted the one motion hot snot the other, mend thi , , it he were right, would suffice to make out that tor . 'which he had feebly cowended. But ire did riot say : that there had never been abuse!: of tire There had been abuses. What is as the case oh Sir 11. Popham ? (tete Was air offirer who, at the end 'of a • 1511 g war, when it was probable that theme.; would be a long peace, could nor tecOucile his - • ardent mind to a life of indolent repose, tome. determined on revisiting tire old haunts of his former glory, enamoured of that element ton whii.ll he had so often sailed'. 'lbis gallant Olio er emo. gaged in a saingitling voyage to the East ladies: There he did not meet w rib that surces‘, " the bright reward of ever daring mind.," to which he might look torwaid. Provided with simulated' papers, he had taken, the name of toe E , rosco for hilt ship, but the sea, though the field of glory, is , proverbially unc-rtain, and in this case iii. lion vidual he had mtortioned fatted, and this gallauto and diatingoished contraba ndist ofas eapiored. vessel was Capdelllned as AC Droit, jere Coroue; but he •was cormsol.-d by a grant from those Droits, by whiell be pocketted,the sum of twenty thou sand pounds. A question was asked him whether he hated not iinin,:4led tea homewards? G a il forbid," said he, " that I shotild remain as sing C night oir hoerel the Etruseo absent trolly my wile. and family." And, aecorditigly, jook a b,met immediately from tire shin. When asked it he had trot taken a boat ?----`` be sore," is'A, !tie reply. " and I woatil haVe . -taien timenty to haves joined my dear wife amt ramify." It was Ats-- covereditoweter, that the bait ' , taa going temeku" wards and forwards tilt; whole oi t 4ht, fry a kind At 11:41.1t., or, as it were, to reader. time cooneet.itor between the. vessel and his dear family (to: closer' —(Lolghter.)---litit it ',rued omit lust Sit IL Popham had laid out no nsnmrey oft this cargo ;• the imh.le of it belonged It) a merchant its lIrd• land, who eventually be,cattri bodiropt..ltevio.4 , however, the good fortune to meet with; some n i n e who pia all his bills for Ilia]. It migne he right, or it might be wrong; cow inut d titel Hon. tool Learned Gentleman, to give Ibis to Sic H. Popham ; but the Minister who (lid it look care that it should-be done in the secret nay—he gave it out of the Kitig's Droit a He bad al io.. ther and last objection to these - Droits. It they Were suspicious or dangerous in their applicants!), they were ten thousand times worse in their osigin- They were alempratioo to Ministers which ought not to he thrown in their way —tie would cere taioly not say for one moment that any Sororeiell would have been silly enough to engage in a Warr solely with reference to these Droits. It might , perhaps, in the minds of sortie Ministers, be* mitigation of such a proceeding, that ei A lit of nne millions came in, in consetptence. Jr er 4 ' true that all prizes made atter the declaration o ° ,. war were, by the uniform custom of the Crown' given up to the captors; hut every capture helme t she declaration. of war went to the King's Droils"' He could only, ther efore, ca-11 upon theta to look 01 the consequence of this, and consider how it vs's * that such enormous fundms had accumulated in tits! . manner, which excited . so , much jeatototy as their application, so that it ought to he %solve!) 0° Ore front of these foam's—tie feared it was alreadf written in characters of blood—that they poi' chased the honour and the unsullied name of Ear land. If it wanted pioati, be woulalreter to tli ° war commenced against the Dutch in the reig t ; of Charles 11., from no other motive titian to ,tee the Smyrna fleet. Providence bad in lust repeV o billion of this iniquitons deed, overwhelmed tt projectors with disgrace, mod forest them to st e t , for peace on the tertia.s of their .enemy, If tote' wanted precedents trot* later times, he wool:, ask them, what dirt they thimis of the Dattish'tw7 fair ?' Or %vita+ did They ihink ct die Stninish He had talked to many (;dicers ocr . this latter 61 jest, and be had never spoken. to one who had o tt ' e said that tire transactions were enestigh to U 1 'every English sailor Wog his head for shat r !.,,,, But he did not care if these things had happe t ! et t or not from the causes to which he had a tirilr i re them. It was enough for bon to ktiow that th '6 was a temptation, and that it had once, in reign- of Ch.tolea the eecood, been yielded W ; ; d %You' they not then unite with him, in an 4 n o thavour to wipe away this stain? It there wa aero f other itolittement than to take away the nv do e carping from their enemy, lie thought ke d, ought to he olfficirat. Let the Crown be as of, let its assl.n: be obtained, let fair terms b e lt ic; fered, and let time Consolidated Fund be Y' o. , possession of these Droits. nror' e. " • such a step he had proved by principle I' ,Yor►lst pedieucy, and it it were necessary, he for d: prove it by precedents. 0-te was to ir e c , the time of Henry the L'i'nk, as rel i)e r.i iYtheti L lys ti, 1 0 Hi el lie (1j or by found he di( wa, hadO t : fraviu tha t 1 be tis% in this the RE Patrol this ti Lint hi bt 11, trim (I ` i F! Tai been FeuAi tuinis ittor I)etiti ilinitil thr itto at' 4 1011.1 are Oft e Wan( Frn„► tC.)tle It,~t ~ fir) it; treciii the ( g ttbta; gran )1 Oil I( vie tivoti for 1t) Olur itev ii, IL t I 'alvt Ity,„ . _ tr)e 41(i rai ~.r~~'. r~ai zu en 4-4 o r I I •L '([ 4/.