The Sun. — London, England, 1824-03-02 00:00:00

xalotaniated hien ' -and not allowed him to make any answer.— (Cheers from the-Opposition.)—But, if his Lordship had al lowed him to defend himself, what a spectacle would then have been presented to the professional, to the whole world ! Inear !)—The Lord Chancellor contending in Court with one of .his own bar, on a statement allowed to have been made by the :latter in his placein the House of Commons !—(Cheers from the • Opposition.)—The Lord Chancellor, it would seem, had charg ea him wilt want of caution ; but in whom was caution most necessary ? He (Mr. A.) had spoken in the presence of Its pro fessional superiors, his Lordship's defenders, who might and would have contradicted him if he were wrong.—( Hear, hear, frem the Opposition.)—But where was h is• Lordship ? In his own Court, where he . (Mr. A.) could not answer him. Much had they heard in that House of the amiable weakness of the Lurd Chancellor • of his great care and anxiety to pause well before he decided; and of the great sensitiveness of his dispo miCon. In the ease of private individuals, upon questions affecting their pryerty, their peace of mind, and every thing that was dear to them, no doubt there wren delay, con sideration, and difficulty enough ; but when it was the Lord Chancellor of England who was ofrended, there was no de lay, no consideration, no diffionity.—(Lotul cheers from the Opposition.)--And from whom had Lord Eldon received the information ? Was it front the Attorney or Solicitor tieneral that he had received that on which he had dared to at-1 taek his (Mr. A.'s) reputation ? But, putting all this aside, by what right, he asked, slid the Lord Chancellor, or any other Judge, take upon himself to animadvert on the debates of that Ilouse—( Loud cheers.)—Were they to deliver their sentiments under fear of censure front a Lord Chancellor or a Lord Chief Justice ?—(llear, hear !)—This applied to all the Member of the !louse generally; but what was the situation of such of its Members as belonged to the legal profession? Denounced by the Lord Chancellor or Lord Chief Justice in, cases which ' taected his.own personal feelings, what, he asked, must be the situation of - a Barrister, whose professional support rested on the most precarious -tenure? His hopes blasted by false state ments from the Bench, and the consequent loss of all professional isusiness.—(Hear,heardlear !)—lf the House would not pro tect its Members; if a Lord Chancellor could be allowed to extinguish-a man by saying what wzts said of him, of what avail were the Peivileges of the house at all ?—( Cheers !)—The subject ought to be seriously and deliberately examined. If it should be proved to the satisfaction of the Moose that the Lord Chancellor had made use of the expres,ions attributed to some decided and vigorous-seep ought to be taken to pre serve the freedom of debate, and support the independence of the English Bar.—( f4oud cheers.)-If not, that Ba.r would he laid prostrate at the feet of Lord Eldon--( Loud cheers from the Opposition.)—That hard Chancellor had been guilty of a gross and unwarrantable breach of the freedom of debate, and he (Mr. A.) called upon the House to notice it. Even had he Littered falsehoods in his place in that [louse, he denied that the Lord Chancellor would have a right to notice them in his place oa 3. - he Beach..(Cheers.)—lle should now leave the case with House, satisfied that it was his duty to bring it forward, .and that he should have disgraced himself and deserted the Bar ha d he not done so.—(Loud cheering.)—lle should conclude . 1:y just observing, that it was his intention to move for the ...ittendance of the Short-hand Writer, in order to prove the Altering of the words by the Lord Chancellor ; and that, the Wards being established, he should follow the matter up by '4nOthcr motion. . The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then " That Mr. Farquharson be ordered to attend at the 31sr of this Ilouse to-morrow." of the House; but what was the case here? The statement alleged to have been made in the llouse was, he could not say, called in question in a Court—he could not say inquired into, but it was noticed for the purpose of punishment. — (Cheers.)—He contended that his language was not too strong for the occasion. lie had nothing to do with the intentions of Lord Chancellor. Ile tbrmed his opinions not on alleged in tentions, but on tlp tendency :of what had been said. lie asked the House one plain question- -how could a Barrister stand up in the honest, conscientious, and fearless discharge of his professional duty before the .Judge of a Court, if that Judge were allowed to- pass- a- sentence upon .hurt--un heard ; a sentence which would deprive him of the fruits of his well, his hard-earned reputation, and close his professional life for ever.—(Loud cheers.)—He (11Ir. B.) did not say that the Lord Chancellor meant to do all this to his Honourable and Learned Friend,• but the conduct now complained of might produce, was likely to produce such in effect ; and - unletz no ticed by the House.would render it necessary to make per petual appeals to it fbr protection. There could be no doubt that the Chancellor had committed a gross violation of the privileges of the House. Indeed this was not denied. But then it was said it was done suddenly, in haste, and under the influence of that most judicious feeling, rashness—(a laugh)— and therefore that they ought to pass it over. were often called upon to crush humble individuals, (rout whose attacks nothing was to be feared ; but if this motion were to be rejected, and any person connected with the Press were hereafter to find it necessary to write a placard, or any other matter in comment on the debates of the House, it would scarcely he credible that any one Member should make a com plaint of it ; but it would be still more incredible that he should be called to account for it —( Loud cheering.) The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, it was admitted on all hands that the Speech of his Honourable and Learned Friend had not been correctly reported ; and reported as it was to the Lord Chancellor, what must have been his feel ings ; what would have been the feelings of his Honourable and Learned Friend had he been charged with a violation of the law, as his Lordship was in this report of the speech of his Illnourable and Learned Friend, in the paper in qiies tion, Tice Moraine , //eraid.—( The Honourable and 'Learned Gentleman here referred to the report, which stated in sub stance that cases' by way of Appeal were heard before the Lord Chancellor upon new afridavits.)—Could any Jude be otherwise than irritated at this ? Not a syllable of what was here stated was true, though it imputed to the Lord Chan cellor the breach of an Act of Parliament. When he (the Solicitor-General) first saw the report of the speech of his lion. and Learned Friend, he immediately observed that he doubted whether his Hon. and Learned Friend ever said what was there attributed to him.—(Cheers from the Opposition.)— Ile perfectly understood the meaning of those cheers, and would notice them presently. The complaint of his Hon. and Learned Friend, on the former occasion, was that the Lord Chancellor heard, with too great facility, cases which had been previously heard by the Vice-Chancellor. It was known that the Vice-Chaecellor had himself made a representation to the Lord Chancellor on the subject ; and had suggested to him the, propriety of not hearing motions, unless the Counsel making them assured his Lordship that they had not been previously made before him (the Vice-Chancellor). The Lord Chancellor, in answer, said, he had no power to prevent any such motions, or to exact such an assurance from any Counsel on the making of a motion. With regard to the expressions used by the Lord Chancellor respecting his Honourable and Learned Friend, . . Mr. Secretary CANNING said, that evert allowance was I they amounted to this, that his Honourable and Learned due to the feelings of a Gentleman in a situation like that of I Friend had appropriated to himself what, in fact, had never the Han. and Learned Member, who had, in his opinion, taken I been meant for him. He, therefore, concurred in the cheers a very proper course in subMitting the :subject to the House. given by the Honourable Gentlemen opposite, when he ex ithout lying a professional than, and,hherefore, without un- pressed his doubt of his Hon. and Learned Friend ever dtav derstanding the aiStinctions in proressional Practice drawn by ing stated what he was reported to hive stated. Ile (the Soli the Hon. and Learned Member, refer-wip e t o hi s speech ,he the citor General) had therefore exculpated the Lord Chancellor.— former occasion, he (Mr. C.) must fully edinit that he did not (Cries of " No, no!" from the Opposition.)—Undoubtedly lion. understand the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to speak per- Gentlemen would come to their own conclusions on the subject, &tonally of the Lord Chancellor in any one respect; and that though he entirely concurred in the general remarks, that no if he had been called opoo elsewhere to give his (minion upon I .Judge ought to be allowed to attack the Bar.—( Hear, hear!) — that speech, he should do tht .. H , n. and Learned Gentlemen lie would never assist in such an attack ; he would not turn •no more than justice in saying that there was nothing in it to the ri g ht or t h e l e f t f or any man , h owever hi g h m i g h t b e - beyond the f a i r li ce n se o f di scus sion. ---(Hear !)—But - liaving i his station. His Lordship, however, had not spoken against admitted ems much for the Hon. • and 'Learned Gentleman, it his lion. and Learned Friend; but against the paper he held was but justice on the other hand to' remind him that he, had jin his hand. Ile (the Solicitor-General) was therefore justifi dropped one main link of the transaction of which he corn- ed in saying, that it was not a personal censure on his Hon. plained.- Ile had assumed that the speeeh, as made by himself, an d Learned Friend - and was also' justified, as a consequence, was correctly repor t ed to th e L or d Chancellor. Ile (Mr. C.) in obsolving the. LortiChancellor - from all charge of intentional. being an unprofessional man, _ man UV' unable, to (rtitrilltVrab Offillte.' . lint 'a . man 'must, be a pathetic indeed who did not tee the eirect of what was re , ported to ]lave been said by the Hon, press himself s t rong ly a .7a in-st, r efal . seimputation, as had been aid Learned Gentleman, from what le; acturdly•dia say ; but done by the Lo r d ch tm e e ll or , whose arodWer was ptirelv hvootne if appeared to be deer that in the reprirt of the speech of the tied. 'His Lordship would not have shown himself possessed of lion• and Learned Gentleman conveyed to the Lord Chancel- j becoming fi rmness if h e had. not repelled the attack upon hint ; }or, there was that Colour given 'to the itatehnent which must . though, in his resistance of that a ttack, he alluded to the misre heve excited those feelings of indignation in his Lordship prese n t a ti on ma d e o f t h e s peech of the lion. and Learned Mem which-had been raised:in the Hon. and Learned Gentleman i her for C a in e , a n d no t to the Honourable and Learned Member it:mself, and for which so full and - generous an allowance ought I himself'. to be. made. But did the Hon. aria Learned 'gentleman meant . Mr. SCARLETT said, the speech of his llon e and Learned to conweed that every thiPg . titte'red; in 'that - HO u `se war - t' l c i Fyieniv. , hii had last sat down, had d6ne hiha.,honour. He,had put up with, riietety'be'eauk. it was said in that House.? The I manfully stated the do u bt h e f e lt, on readingthe report, whether fitielt of all these misrepresentations was in themselves, through i hi s Hon. and Learned Friend had made use of the words attri their own permission, or at least their connivance, though he, ! hilted to him. But he (Mr. S.) had yet to learn, whether the So. for one, worth! :ant correct it. The smallest error in the report i licitor-General d ou bt e d more th an t h e L or d Chancellor—(A of their debadht might wound the feelings cf .. themest Worthy 1 lanolw)e- His Lordship might, if h e pl ease d, h av e ob ta i ne d bet and opright.iddivide a l in the kingdom. ' Tile Honourable and Ito innwmation. He might have sent for his Hon. and Learned Isearned.Gentleinan had said that a dodge had no right whats Friend, and ascertained from him the accuracy or inaccuracy ever to animadvert on the proceedings,' in that House. This, of the report. And if it had been his Lordship's intention to It, doubt, was very true; but was o n ot n a t ura l tin. a Judge allude only to the report, why had he not said so in terms ? when he fo un d 'h imse lf attac k e d i n t h e nublisheduncontra- (Hcar„hear,' from the Opposition.)—lt was well known that a dieted report of those proceedings, -to feel a desire. todelend persow,might easily avoid interfering with the privileges of the himself ?—(Hear, hear t)e-Ile(Mr. C.) by so means said that House by alluding to the report of a speech, and denying the tlen defence should he put forth in intemperate language; but truth •of the statement contained in that report. Had his Petal the wish fbr def ence most be natural. This report of their Honour a bl e an d Learned Friend been present at the uttering proceedings had besn referred to by an eminent individual, of these expressions, - and a debate had followed between fee/ing perhaps too sorely the attacks w hi c h were made upon his Ho noura bl e an d Learned Friend and the Lord Chancellor, him ; and of whom, though a public man, he could not say which ended in the former being committed, would the House that he was content to carry his virtwe "on his sleeve for have hesitated to interfere and protect its privileges ?—(llear !) d ates - to peck at." lie was sorry for this, but it arose from an ' And where could be the difference between such a case and the excess of right feeling; and was therefore not to be visited too present ? If the present motion were refused, they would surd severely. • The Hon. and Learned Gentleman called for the render their charters to the pleasure of the Lord Chancellor.— vindication of his character, - and he justly called for it ; b u t (Ch eers f rom t h e O ppos ition.)—For his own part, he had no ' .aome allowance should be . matie for the characters of others, 1 hesitation in saying he would rather that the Lord Chancellor who h a d , the same desire to maintain character which was so should send him to prison, strip hint of his fortune and of properly shewn by the Honourable and Learned Gentleman. his gown, rather than call him a liar from the seat of justice ! —He wished, most sincerely, that in the interval which had —(Cheers from the Opposition.)—What would be said if a pri passed bet Ween the oublication of the speech and the end of vate individual only had said to a Member of that House, a the week, th a t some other• and more authehtic sources of in- barrister, speaking of his conduct in that House,-...." You have formation h a d b e en coneplted, - before th e uttering, by the uttered what is false, and d eserve to h a ve the gow n stripped off Noble Lord, of the expres.;ions now c ompl a i ne d of.—(flear, your back ?"—(Cheers.)_And was not the attack on the privi hear, bear ! frorri the Opposition.)_[ H ere some communica- leges of the House much more rude and violent when it came don took place between the Bight Hon. Geetierna.n and Air. from a Lord Chancellor of England? It had been said (he Coartenay.l He was now given to undu.stand by his Hon. shoul(l not inquire with what truth) that the English Bar had and Learned Friend, that the paper containing the inaccurate become degraded. It was not for an humble individu a l re:tort had been putt into the hands of the Nphle Lord only on him to take upon himself the defence of the English the morniog of Saturday last.—(Hear, hear !)—lndeed from Bar against such an observation; but he would say, that the many occupations of that Noble and Ideartil Person, it if it were intended to degrade that Bar, no more effectual was not likely that he had time to peruse the doily jnornals.--- mode could be taken titan that which was the subject of In this state of things neither of the pasties ought to staffer.— 1 the present discussion. What could he more degrading th a n The error, causing cite whole of the complaint on each side., the expression, "It i s an ut t er f a l se h oo d ;" an d t h e addi lay inter nediately in the misapprehension, and consequent mis- tion, with a sneer, about " Gentlemen with gowns upon representation, of the words of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. their baci;s?" And would the House submit to this ?. Would The. Hon. and Learned olentleman had most ably and satisfac- 1 they visit an humble individual, a printer, with censure, with wily cleared himself ie the eves of the Hene'e and the coun- 1 punishment, and say nothin g to a L or d Ch ance ll or, ? —( i lear, try te but he wo u ld b e i n error, i n hi s op i n i on, if h e were now ( hear, hear !)—From all that he understood of the privileges of to press his motion, and thus preclude himself from the sub- 1 the House, and all that he bad read of the Constitution, he col stwitial satisfaction 'of knowing, that what he did say would lected that the privileges of the Ho use were i nten d e d for pro net have excited thceefeelingS in the L or d:Ch ance ll or I , which tection against the powerful, as the common sense of the cause were excited inerely by a statement of what he had not said. 1 shewed that they must be. And yet, such being the object of —On these grounds he should think it his duty to oppose the 1 these privileges; would they endure such an attack as had been • Motion. i complained of from a person whom ir e (M r . S.) a d m i tte d to • Mr. BBOUGHA3I said, that w h a t ever mien , . be the objects I be a person of the deepest learning and the most incorruptible which the Noble Lord had in view, he (Mr. B.) conld not but I integrity; but who was high ia power ? Would. they allow think that one. of' them had fail e d i n the defence which had I hi m , andhim alone, to visit his mi g hty wra th u p on a M em b er been mittle for his Lordship by the Right lion. Secretary.— !of that House? What would have been said if this had been 'nap defence consisted of an admission of the whole charge.— I spoken by any other Judge having no power or patronage? He (Hear, hear ! f rom th e Opposition.)—Aml all that had then I confidently asked whether they would not be free with their ben otfered w as the humble, submissive, but not injurious ar- I indignation in such a case? If, then,untler these circumstances, wornent, in extenu a tion. But besides his lion. and Learned they passed over the present complaint, it would he inferred Friend and the Lord Chancellor, there was a third party to be that they did so from either interest or tear. It could be but considered; a party which appeared to have been fereotten from one or the other that they passed by a Lord Chancellor iil , the Right lion. Secretary—he meant the House.—(Loud and condemned a printer. It was the attack in another place cheers from the Opposition.)—Resides the high character of his which constituted the breach of privilege. He by no means Hen, and Learned Friend, which had never before been in I said that the Lord Chancellor did not believe that his Hon. and jeopardy, and whiels never could be otherwise than sale in nil ! Learned Friend did not say the words attributed to him ; no who knew him, there were the privileges or the House ; pri- i one even supposed that his Lordship did not believe the words vileges to be laughed at by those who hated them. an d ito h ave b een u tt ere d. B u t th a t did not a lt er t h e quest i on trampled upon by those who - would subvert them, if this 1 which was perfectly distinct and independent of that fact alto matter were to be passed over ; which would then become ,;ether. He (Mr. S.) felt a personal respect for the Lord Chan poWerful only against the weak and feeble against the strong. i cellor : he was under no obligation to him, but he had, upon —(Cheers:)—lf the Editor of a Newspaper after this were to all occasions, received courtesy and kindness of behaviour from makes comment, or a Reporter inaccurately to give the de- him, and he therefore spoke on this subject with reluctance. bate of the proceedings, he should like to hear what answer But he could not sit clown without declaring that he never knew could be made to a defence, if it were similar to what they had or heard (We case which called more loudly for the interference jut heard. It must be said'" 0, dear, thin Editor was hasty. of the House to protect its own privileges than the present, and " Ile conceived the character of his newspaper to he attacked ; , he should therefore support the motion--(Cheers.) " let us therefore indulge his feelings. The m a n, undoubtedly, I The ATTOFtNEY.GENERA L said, it must, be obvious " was tan hasty, and had he waited a few hours—(flear, hear!) i that the sole object of the Lord Chancellor was to defend him '• or taken the . least pains to as cer t a in th e fact—(Cheers from I self and not to a tt ac k th e H on . an d L earne d G ent l eman. lin g the opposition)—this would not have occurred."—lf the thunded charge; against his Lordship, attributed to the Hon. m Wiea now before the House were rejected, he really must Alember e haec been disseminated all over the country; charges say, that nothing short of insanity could induce any complaint of malversation in office, of violation of'law, and of time most or Breach of Privelege.—(Hear, hear, hear ! from the 3lini. unworthy conduct, in causing obloquy to attach to the Judge sternal side.)—lf Honourable Gentlemen thought otherwise, of another Court. This charge had been extensively circulated they would probably be good enough to st a te in what a breich for several days, and had the Hon. and Learned G ent l eman or privilege consisted. f )t) a fernier occasion they h a d sent a ever denied that he was the author of it ?—(Hear, bear !)—Had printer to Newgate for (he believed) about six months; and in: :he come down to the House anti said, "a charge against the : Mr. Gale Jones's case (which he always thought a hard one) Lord Chancellor has been attributed to me in a public Journal, they had punished him for publishing the placard of a debate and . I think it proper to deny that I ever made such a charge." a t a spouting club. • The Bill of Rights, which declared th a t —(Cheers from the Ministerial Benches.)—When his Lordship nothing stated in Parliament should be called in question out made the observations he held the paper in his hand, and must ss e it, had often been refereed to in support of the privileges therefore have alluded to it ; and all who heard him must have seen that his object was merely to defend himself. He (the Attorney-General) fully admitted that the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had said nothing to justify the state ment made in the' report of his speech ; but nothing could be more likely than for a person who was not profession al to confound the distinctions which, undoubtedly, had been accurately drawn by the lion. and Learned Gentleman. The Lord Chancellor had no doubt expressed himself in Un guarded, though indignant terms ; but he repeated that every person who had seen his Lordship with the paper in his hand must have seen that he alluded to the uncontradicted report of the. Speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. When the Noble and Learned Lord found himself unjustly charged with having evaded an.l perverted the law, it was not toe much to ask for him an indulgence of those- feelings which must be na tural to an honourable mind ou such an occason. If the House allowed their proceedings to be published, and occasionally misrepresented, and allowed thesantisrepresentations, though unintentional, terpass Uneautradieted ; it was a little too much to ask that the privileges of the Ilouse should be enforced against a person who defended himself against such pi:contra dicted misrepresentations, eien thOugh his defence should be offered too warnily.—(Hear, hear Hon. and Learned Friend (M r : Scarlet) had referred to an assertion that the Bar had become degraded. He was sorry to hear of such an asser tion ; and more so to find it noticed by his Hon. and Learned Friend.. As far as his own knowledge and experience went ::e was enabled to state his firm conviction that, at no period of our history was the independence of the Bar so complete as it was at present ; an independence which must be observed by every one who attended our Courts, and must their witness the great attention paid by the MeMbers of the Bar to the in terests of their Clients ; and the frequent instances in which the opinions and decisions of the .ludges were called in ques tion. In conclusion lie would only observe that the knowledge of the misrepresentation and the comment upon it, were im mediate on the part of the Lord Chancellor, and that there was therefore, in his opinion, no just ground on which the House could entertain the motion.—(Hear, hear, hear !) Mr. SCA RLETT explained. He had not adopted the as sertion that the independence of the Bar had lessened. lie be lieved that it continued as it hail been in its acknowledged independence ; but lie thought that the preservation of that independence was to be attributed to the firmness and exer tions of his own Members.—(Cheers.) Mr. TIERNEY said he thought he should be wanting in his duty if he gave a silent vote on the present occasion, or forbore to state the reasons on which he came to the conclusion that the House ought to entertain the motion of his Hon. and Learned Friend. Every one must be satisfied with the statement of his Hon. and Learned Friend, and that no one could stand higher than he did. On the part of his Hon. and Learned Friend, it was therefore unnecessary to say another word. But what was to become of this Calumniator ; this Lord Chancellor ? No Honourable Gentleman on the other side of the House had denied the charge brought against him; but no Honourable Member had said that he was authorized by the Lord Chan cellor to make any acknowledgment. And, if his Lordship had really a desire to humble himself, he (Mr. Tierney) be lieved that the lion. Secretary for Foreign Affairs would be the last person on whom he would fix his choice as the hearer of that submission.—(A laugh.)—After arresting the Right lion. Gentlemen on his foreign travels, it was not likely he would choose die Right Honourable Gentleman to be his de fender at home.—(Laughter.)--It was rather singular, perhaps unfortunate for the defence of the Lord Chancellor, that the only paper which be did not take time to consider, was that which lie complained of himself; and yet :vas the paper which was relied upon for die Noble Lord's defence.—(Laughter.)— The Noble Lord had long been charged with being a doubting man, but now they were called upon to acquit him, because it was said he was a rash one. The motion before the House was in accordance with their forms, as it proposed to ascertain, in the first instance, whether the words now imputed to the Lord Chancellor had been uttered by him ; and he (Mr. T.) was for agreeing to this motion as a preliminary measure, leaving what was to be done afterwards a matter for future consideration. The usual course afterwards was, to call for the attendance of the per son charged at the bar of the House. But such attendance could not be compelled in the present case, on account of the rank of the accused ; and it therefore would be necessary in a future stage to consider of the proper and constitutional means of asserting the privileges of the flouse. Yet would the House, on this ac count, decline acceding to the motion, and say that they would not go on, because they did not know how to get at the de fentlantl• The inotion before the House was the usual one in such a case, even though they should not be inclined to press the matter to extremities. This wah the case e somewhat re ,cently, with Mr. Hope, who had been put to the inconvenience of coating L'dinburgh to attend at d ie B ar , an d was dis charged on' efOrrilition, attributing what he had put forth 0 to the irrit a t e d feelings , of, sh moment. The Att orne y an d Solicitor General, who had alway s , as Attorney and Solicitor Generals, very kind feelings for a Lord Chancellor—(a laugh) —had proposed the not pressin g this motion, because the Lord pronounced very rashly- 7 - N .Clul ow nc b el e li L l . 7l ,.3 r e e Q a t d h ild a w s e t l i l ly be a li n e d ve that much had occurred within the last five yati in' that. House to ruffle the amiable temper of his Lordship. The m o ti on which had been made re specting his Court, and which h a d b een me t with so little argu ment front the other side of th e H ouse; t h e recent i n timation which he must have had from his political friends that although they might be able to secure him a majority in that House ; yet that h e not must commission for e n quirin g partial sacrifice, and consent to a into the Court; all these circum stances could suibtmhaitvtt i contributed to disturb that amiable temper for which he had been so often, no doubt, so justly praised. As for the newr per in question, the House were bound to suppose his 14 ship bad borrowed it,--(a laugh)— because, as it was last Wednesday's paper, it was hot likely that lie kept it by him unseen until Saturday. It was said by the Hon. and Learned Solicitor -General, that the remarks of the Lord Chancellor were directed to the paper, and not to his Hon. and Learned Friend. B ut, L had Lie paper a gown upon scheers from theOpposition.)—There were t gowns upon their backs all u ded to , a nd the allusion could onl y be to his Hon. a nd Learned Friend the Mover, and his Hon. and L earne d F r i en d s t h e M em b ers ibacGice ?( Laughte r, tlemenwith and for Winchelsea and Lincoln (Mr. Brougham and Mr. Williams.) He was sure that the Hon. and Learned Solicitor-General, in any case professionally entrusted to him, would never descend to such a method of escaping from a difficulty. He thought the House e * co it u h rse an to be a f ter ta k en m i g h t not b o a ver y appearance of reason reject the motion,ctohuoludonotht clear one. Perhaps, an &Polo* , would be made, and the Lord Chancellor would beg Pardon and yet, he would be ruined in his character of a Judge if he were to go into his Court and say, " On Saturday last 1 hastily and without inquiry or considera " tion, threw out unfounded reflections on one of the Members " of the House of Commons; I am sorry I did so, and I beg " pardon." He believed the Lord Chancellor to be a most able Judge, and one of the most perfect integrity ; but he was free to confess, that lie did not think the country had received blessings enough from him to induce a violation of parliamentary rules in order that he might be let off. — (Cheers.)—liedid not think it pro per to allow his Lordship to Say, " I am to say what I think good, because I am a Lord Chancellor of 20 years standing." Neither did he think that because the Chancellor's rank and situation threw difficulties in their way, they were therefore to do nothing at all. Their privileges ought never to be exer cised or talked of again, if they passed this over. People out of doors never would draw the nice distinctions which the House did. He implored them to consider before they rejected the motion ; to consider what they could possibly say to any sensible man out of doors who should put to them the plain question— " Why did you not enforce your privileges when they were attacked by a Lord Chancellor ?"—(Cheers !) Mr. Secretary PEEL said the Right Ilon. Gentleman had given a singular kind of advice to the Flouse. He had recom mended them to take the first step at once, and leave the second to after consideration. He (Mr. P.) thought it would he better and wiser for them to consider first as to what would be their ultimate course before they engaged themselves in any diffi culty at all.—(Cheers from the Ministerial Benches.)—The case before the House, in his opinion, included two questions, which appeared not to have been kept sufficiently distinct. The first was, whether there had been a breach of privilege; and the se cond, whether, if there had, it was of such a nature as to threaten any individual Member of that. House for discharging his Parliamentary duty. As to the first question, he would really beg to remind the House in how many cases breaches of privilege took place, almost necessarily, without notice being taken of them. They were often themselves guilty of breaChes of privilege, by alluding to what takes place in the other House. Nothing was more common than to speak of its proceedings, or " the proceedings of another place," which was of course a mere erasion. In fact it might be worth their consideration whether it would not be better at once to keep their privileges within nominal bounds, which could more conveniently be ob served. The case now before the House arose, in the first in stance, out of a breach of privilege.—(Hear, hear !)—This was a circumstance to be born e i n m i n d, for there was no getting rid of it.—(Cheers.)—lle agreed with his Right Honourable Friend that it was desirable to permit the publication of their proceedings, on account of the advantage which attended that publication, but then it became necessary, in fairness, to con. cider the consequence of this permission. A speech made, or reported to be made, by a Member of that House, was printed and wafted all over the British Empire, indeed wherever the English language was spoken or known. Such a report con tained charges deeply affecting the character of a Judge, and such a report was unfounded. In such a case, if the House per initted the publication of their debates, was it possible for them to prevent the feelings of wounded honour from expressing a de fence to such a charge. He believed it was impossible, he could not say that he wished it to be otherwise. Such feelings would have been wounded in consequence of free and unrestrict ed discussion ; and they ought to be allowed a remedy by the same means.—(Cheers.)—The report of the speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to which the attention of the House had been called, contained such charges as he had alluded to. They had, he believed unintentionally, been attributed to the lion. and Learned Gentleman, and the Noble and Learned Lord who was the subject of them had given way to feelings which could not but be natural under such a charge. lie had claimed that privilege as an Englishman, which, in his judicial character, he had so often .extended to others-ethe . right of being heard in his defence. He had said he WaR not guilty ; 01, if they pleased, he had, in less measured language, said that the charge was false. It would be the grossest tyranny if the publication of debates were allowed, and no answer were to be given to any thing contained in them.—(Hear, hear!)—They were told that they held their privileges for the benefit of the people of England, who might say with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman himself, " Attack my person or my property, but for God's sake leave my character secure."—So he (Mr. Secretary Peel) said; (Cheers)—but if no opportunity were to be allowed to repel an attack ; if an individual were not to be allowed to re sort to the press, through which he received the injury, : to deny the accusation which he felt to be unfounded, where would be the security for character ?—(Continued cheers. )—Let them establish the ancient prerogatives of the House, and not eillow the publication of the debates, and then n o man wou ld have it in his power to call in question what passed in the House. But surely so long as that was not done, it was not common justice to prevent an individual, not from seeking redress, but from pleading in answer to an accusation, Not Guilty ' When a Member of that House thought proper to publish a speech he had delivered there, the Courts of Law told him that his privilege • did not protect him against prosecution for the contents of it, and damages were awarded against bins. He was aware of the distinction in this case, for the Member did not here publish the statement himself ; hut he had only ad duced the, case he had just referred to, to shew how wide the difference was between what a Member had said in that House, and what was published forth to the world in his name. Again he contended, that tinder such circum stances it would be the height of injustice to deprive an individual affected by such publication of the power of de nial. The case of Mr. Hope had been referred to. That case varied from the present. Conceiving that something had been .said reflecting on his character, he referred to the Member to know if he.was the author of it. Be was aware that he was treading on ground where personal feelings might be wounded ; but he wished to take only that part of the case which connected it with the House and the question then before it. The Hon. Member replied, or he might have replied, for so this House had assumed, that he was not responsible to any person for what he uttered in that House. Under these circumstances the House did not hesitate, to vote it a breach of its privilettes.— Let them, however, mark the difference in the case of Mr. Menzies. He had made no appeal to the Member. He said, that he found such a statement in a newspaper—he did not refer to where it cause from, or where it was uttered ;. but simply confined himself to contradict the report. The House then feeling that it had not prevented the injustice being done, by not preventing the publication of its proceedings voted,— " That Mr. Menzies having explained his conduct to the satis faction of the House, be excused from further attendance." In these instances it would be observed, the House had distinctly recognized the mitigating circumstance of the publication tole rated by itself. He was ready to suppose the Hon. and Learn ed Gentleman could prove all lie had put forward, and still he should say, under the circumstances, that House could not proceed to any thing implying condemnation. The subject in question, wherein the error had been made in •reporting . the Honourable 2nd Learned Member's observations, was itself a most complicaied one—one, indeed, which it was scarcely possible for any but a professional man to understand.—The real state of the case was this : Motions from the Vice-Chan cellor's Court might be heard before the Lord Chancellor with out the signature of Counsel to an application to that effect.— But re-hearings and appeals could not be had without signature of Counsel. It was merely required that the same evidence which was produced before the Courts below, whether read by the Judge or not, should be produced upon the re-hearing. The House would readily see how very easy it was for a newspaper reporter to make a mistake in a matter of suds nice distinctions. —He was sure that if the House were to refer to all the papers which contained a statement of what the Hon. and Learned Gentleman said On the night in question, they would find that , it was not correctly given in any one; so that had hi s N o bl e Friend, when the paper was handed up to him as c on t a i n i ng a correct onlyr eporth a o v f what passed, compared it w i t h the others be would e found it confirmed.—(Th e m i s-statement was not contained in the Morning Porto The Right Honourable Gentleman referred to the columns of the Morning Herald, and read that part of the speech of Mr. Abercomby which was ferniiplained of. Here, said the Right Hon. Crentleman, was a -•diatamet charge against the Lord High Chancellor of England of having evaded, forlhat was the word, an Act of Parliament. Now what would theelionse,eay, when they found there was no such provision as stated in this paper in the Act of Parliament? ; Yee here, was a newspaper p u ttin g this . charge into the mouth of ,7speeptyerombY! a Gentleman practising in the Court of Chen aiieihd'Aileenber of that House ! And WaSrit'not-natural, not to "liisieneeesiery e • that the Lord Chancellor shoulslitn,semr, moderately colielk, I .th V e h re en such an. accusatioae s : getage in, which that answer. weelnade, he confessed, althotgh' there might*, i s es nothing referred othng t t o o e t i h c e it t e oneanllan-SPme one expressiorewhich might have been more ' disapproba tion. His Noble Fiiend.hed.said that such and such things had been represented of him in the practice of, his Court. This he denied, saying it had never b een t h e practice of the Court, a nd that he did not think himself entitled to tax the King's. - subjects to such an extent. Now nothing could be more becomiqg in the mouth of an individual in the situation of his Noble Fesend., and he was sure that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, had he not been acting .under the influence of those feelings:which he could well mute in him, would not have brought forward the motion then under discussion. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman, he was sure, would be the first to make Allow ance for feelings by which the Lord Chancellor must have been impelled when he saw himself thus charged as • being the cause of increased expence and litigation . in the Court over which he presided, and with having actually evaded nhear !)—as it possible for a common Act of flesh I}t and lia, belnot—dt ia W e resist giving, an answer to such un founded charges?—(Hear, hear !)—He knew that Lord Hard wicke laid it down as the duty of a Judge under such circum stances. His words were—" There is no one duty more, im perative on a Judge than to set the Acts of his Court right with the world." His Noble F r i en d t h en h a d prompt l y an d plainly said, "it is an utter falsehood." tes to whether this was a breach of privilege or not, he confessed he entertained serious doubts ; for it might be reduced to a denial expressed in strong terms. Supposing th a t- hi s N o bl e F r i en d h a d said, " this is completely erroneous," he believed that House would never have heard any thing of the matter. Instead of that, however, he had said, "it is an utter falsehood." .As applied the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, no one was more ready than himself to say such an expression was totally misapplied. As apislied to the Newspaper, it was perfectly correct. But he denied that the terms in which the - denegation was expressed was any aggravation of a breach of privilege. The whole tenour of his Noble Friend's observations was moderate—(Cheers from the Opposition.) —He complained of this unfair interruption whilst in the middle of a sentence, at the same time that he could not think this miserable worthless ' victory over half a sentence worth claiming. lie was about to add, that the expressiOn of" Gentlemen who have gowns on their I backs," was that which was opposed to the tone of the other part of the paragraph. The expression was certainly not a polished one; but it was obvious that it was employed to signify pro- + fessienal men, and had no sort of reference to the lion. and • Learned Gentleman. It was conceived in the height of irrita tion, and it would be the greatest injustice if the House were to proceed to pass deliberate censure upon it under all these circumstances. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) who had spoken last, would not, he was sure, have introduced so much merriment into the discussion, had he considered that it deserved the calm and grave consideration of the House. The next branch of the question was, whether his Noble Friend had pursued a course calculated to intimidate the Hon. and Learned Gentleman in the the discharge of the duties of his profession. That he should consider ten times more important for the in terference of the House than the other matter charged. But • such a disposition on the part of his Noble Friend, in his gene ral conduct, no one seemed to attribute to him. They had heard from the Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. Scarlett) himself, an eminent Counsel of the Court of King's -Bench, that the Lord Chancellor always treated him with the greatest justice, impartiality, and even courtesy. Vet that Honourable and Learned Gentleman never thought it at ail necessary to withhold from the House his strongest expres sion upon the subject of Chancery affairs when before the House. The passage complained of in his Noble Friend's speech proceeded from the spur of the moment, whilst tinder irritated feelings. In the expression then used, he was con vinced there was no premeditated intention of violating the privileges of that House; and above all, no intention of con veying a threat to any professional Gentleman. If then the House agreed with him in thinking the mode of denial was no aggravation of a breach of privilege, and that it was not in tended to intimidate, they would not take that step which the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) opposite told them would place them in the midst of difficulties, for which even he could not see one mode of extrication.—(Continued cheers.) Mr. TIERNEY said that he had not proposed that the House should put itself in a situation of increased difficulty, but that it should take a step in the midst of its present dif ficulties which would admit of some mode by which the Lord Chancellor might disavow to the House any intention of in. fringing their privileges. Sir J. MACKINTOSH believed, that if the House should be induced to reject the 1120tiOn it would be most fatal to the independence, character, and even Con ;titution of that House' Its effect would be to intimidate Gentlemen at the Bar from performing their duty to the people in Courts of Justice, and what was of still more importance to that House, from perforin ing freely and fearlessly their duty to the public within those if they h a pp ene d to b e Parliament.--(Ileac:) If of Parli a m en t.-: l t If it did not rob th em o f th e i r c h aracter f or i ndepen d enceo t most certainly would place them in a light very likely toY e viewed with suspicion. In fact, it would become a consideratio n of importance whether the House should not exclude persons is the profession so c i rcumstance d f rom seats i n that Asses-au"- The circumstance of the complaint having been made of the conduct of the highest Judge in the highest Court of the country, ought to he a reason for stricter investigation. 1 " r would it be endured that even so high and exalted a Magistrat e should arraign with falsehood in a tone of violence and coarseness a Member of that House whilst declaring his sentiments within its doors. If such were their situation, it was a mockery . t° talk of the constitution of that House, or of its right to inquire into abuses in Co ur t s o f J ust i ce , which stood amongst its stand ing ;_•;essional (n i ters.—(Hear!)—A s to the publication of the debates, he would ask, would the House, though it permitted it' debates to go forth tier the advantage of the public, and so far connived at a breach of the Standing Orders, would it go so far. as to tolerate or en d ure ca l umn i ous attac k s on a Member 0, that House, because lie.had taken an hostile part in a discuasie 9 relative to the conduct of one of Ills Majesty's principal Minis ters ?' The case of Mr. Menzies was not in point, for there the usual disguise had been adopted under such circumstances, alb; he had not affected to treat the remarks of his Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Abereromby) as a speech in Parliament, or anY thing else than as a. printed paragraph in a Newspaper. Bl t the Lord Chancellor was above such a disguise. The Noine Lord did not even condescend to inquire" whether the language imputed to his Hon , and Learned Friend was - in point of fact used by him; a precaution which the Right Hon. Secretary opposite would, after having spent six years of his life in a.. country remarkabl e f or their high sense of honour and value 0 , character, have condemned a youth emerging from school 1 0 the possession of a pair of colours, had he neglcctgd to observe it, as a fimdamental.rule, before things were brought to any.s;e riosiA alteration amon gs t gentlemen. But here the improprie - y or offence, to say no worse of' it; was heightened by its beir4 part of a speech delivered in the judgment seat. Why had it not been reserved for production in his place in the House of Lords, or was he so weak in the number of his friends, or per , sons attached to bins through affection or the remembrances of past favours sofew in that House that he would not trust him self to their defence? The whole of the speech of the Hom and Learned Attorney-General was extenuative, and so far was out of place, because it had been introduced at an improper stage, and with a view to interrupt inquiry. He would seriouslY ask the House if any one still denied that a breach of privileq had heea•cominitttd, and that the present was a false charge ; Did it not assume the most serious character, inasmuch as it charged the Lord Chancellor with impedin g and deterring the Members of th a t H ouse w h o h appene d to he at the Bar from the exercise of their duty, who happened to be the persons best qualified to follow up the inquiry that night pending relative to the conduct of that Judge, in deferring justice ?--- The House of Commons had risen into the confidence of the people by its having been successfidly engaged for a long period of years in great struggle with the Crown ; and to its success might be attributed that we were now a great and certainly the happiest people on earth. In the whole course of those struggl he would ask, but any lawyer or judge before dared to impugla a Member for the sentiments he uttered in his place in Parlia ment ? If it was then the duty of the House to prevent anY Judge, however respectable, from impeding any Member of the Bar and Senate from the free exercise of his privilege in Parliament, be argued that there were other considerations which should render the House jealous of such an interference with young men at the Bar, whose comparative 'poverty or de pendence on the smile or frown of a Judge - might possibly in duce thern to aspire to honours in their profession, or seats on the benches of justice, by submitting to. become the degraded sycophants of men in power. For these reasons he should moss cordially support the motion.—( Applause.) Mr. WYNN observed, that whatever difference of opinias there might be in other respects, all seemed to agree i n this that no sti g m a could be cast on the Hon. and Learned Gentle man who had introduced the motion. What was attributed to the Lord Chancellor, was, in his opinion, no more than a con , " meat on what aroearei in a newspaper, which it would be He e he the -highest injustice tcaopitso)ot.uer,ianisrvctlpeleeniaiipliw,ltekeer( e o sei:aid:seetdti t iol r oatei e fieffx a nidbtp:i t breach ,rihlanrileaeee a tyas.ss s iiiicsii,n)hd: : rodeoeihus:Loiieitstssfihreeedtprvei of rivilege. ga3iyih s nthgrau, hade. lugdalrellseidldd: Member nt p r:rhgeoo e tta : :: oto h oorafs, a tuatvwee i . delivered evavisi ritnei privilege gt o e : sadeto c eitip a iitti: eno, u nut,ri, i mbtr e ohil?i t aots b naahthst r iseesillic w mici nwmuoo l et, e : 2sreien tl iser and published by himself. It was on that occasion generally e version. Mr. Fox had said dat it might he his duty to use 10 1 ?; make him a fit object for prosecution. It seemed to be ad mitted that if the Lord Chancellor had said, alluding to cersoli assertions which had • been made, that who soever ',J e ss h`" said so w a s g u il ty o f utter falsehood, no man would h e _a v f celled it t a bre a ch o f p r i v il ege. Was the oiniSsion then of tills %msy .veil to make the lioxise treat the matter as a bread of privilege which otherwise it would not ? It was to barmen bered that this was not ail attack, it was a defence. The Ho nourable and Learned Member for Peterborough (Mr. Scar lett) had suggested the oddest way in the world of avoiding the . present dilemma. He said the Lord Chancellor ought to have sent for the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and asked him if he did use the expression imputed to him. Had he pursued such a course, the Hon. and Learned Member himself would have beeir the . first to have asked the House if they would submit to the Lord Chancellor of England calling before him a Member * of that House, and catechising him as to his conduct in the House.—(Hear, • hear?)-.lf the House were to adopt his mo tion, it would give the deepest wound to their privileges, and the greatest shake to their authoritythey had ever encountered. —(hear, hear!) Mr. SCA RLETT :explained, that he had siiggisted the Chancellor's sending for his Hon. - and Learned Friend, and stating that he could not believe he had used the expressions-in question, because they were inconsistent with the practice of the Court. Mr. W. WILLIAMS thought that the House ought to agree to the motion bef ore them,for the purpose o f exam i n ing whether any breach of the privileges of that House had been committed. If they were to do that, it would give the Lord Chancellor an opportunity of explaining, through the mouth of a friend, the meaning of the language he had used. Any other course would, in his opinion, endanger .the existence of their privile fles•—((`,ries of Question.") Mr. ABERCROMBY'repIied. His first duty, he said, was to make his acknowledgment to every Member on the other side of the House, who had come forward to bear testimony to the misrepresentation of his sentiments, He had, therefore,. by general concession, both grounds to support his motion upon. He might, he was aware, have pursued a different - course from that he had adopted. He might have treated the` transaction as one entirely personal to himself, and in that case have been permitted to make his own statement to the House. In that case, however, he was advised he must shew that there was a breach of privilege.. He f e lt h e h a d one ot h er d ut y to perform, by which he had been strongly influenced—he meant his duty to the profession of which he was a member. Under these conflicting views he had taken the counsel of those in. whose experience he placed entire confidence as to the course he should pursue. Be had adopted the present one : and he still remained of opinion that it was both wise and, prudent- He should make no further observations in support of it, leav ing its fate to the decision of the House. The House then divided : For the motion - - Against it - • - - - - Majority against the motion - - MISCELLANEOUS :ESTI:a A TES. On our return to the Gallery we found the House in a 00 11l .• mittee of Supply, to which the Miscellaneous Estimates of t year had been referred. dti Mr. HERIZIES moved the Resolutions for the different votes, holding himself prepared to im,:wer any questions that might be put hint. The lion. Ge.mleman first moved, " That the sum of 40,0001. be granted to his Majesty to defray the expellees under the head of Works and repairs of Public Building .„ Mr. BANNES asked if this vote included some repairs and alterations going fdrward in the neighbourhood of that House? Mr. 11 EliltlES.—Yes. Mr. BANKES wished to take this opportunity of 'referring to the unsatisfactory way in which , those repairs were con ducted.— (H ear !)—He moved for the accounts of these repairs , in order that they might know how far they had gone,. and, what was to co me b e hi n - . 1. B e wou ld not d o t hi s, h owever, if it would interrupt the progress of public business. Mr. H. G. BENNET considered the application of the money hitherto expended as complete wmte, which had the misfortune of carrying with it shame and disgrace to the nation which had so applied it. Mr. BERRIES said, that 5,8001. had been expended on the works alluded to. He would take care that the House should have the accounts before them. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he was,. not surprised th a t th e su bj ect s h ou ld attract t h e attent i on 0. the House. He was decidedly of opinion that some alteration ought to take place in the mode in which works of this kind had hitherto been done.—(Hear, hear!) —The architect was jr. Some, and the auth or ity un d er w hi c h h e acte d was t h at o f the Board of Works, and be confessed that he did think it desirable that the real, essential, and substantial responsibility of con ducting works of this nature should lie vested in the Treasury . hear !)—At present it WL$ not, and they had no con- ~.