The Sun. — London, England, 1820-06-08 00:00:00

looNvieilged their offence, viol cxpres3ec3 their zontritiein for what they trui done, this House i content to proceed no far ther nom , the Petition cor.oplainnig of a breach of the privi f,f that House.— At:reed to. The Order for the attendance of the Petitioners on that Muse 'was then discharged. STATE OF IRELAND. Mr DALY postponed his notice respecting the State of Ire land to this day se nnight. BAKING. Mr. C. CAT.VERT obtained leare to bring in a Bill to con tinue the fißt b of Gen. 111. ch. 36, for the regulation of the baking, trade for one year. MARINES. Sir G. C.()CKBURN brought in a Bill to regnlate the state of his Nlajesty's Royal Marines while on shore.—Read the first tune n.t.!crr nts'nuLATloN IN IRELAND.. Sir J. r•ft.:tVART obtained leave to bring in a Bill to repeal so much of the 39111 of the King Cwhicti was an Act to limit the operation of cTh't4in Acts relating to the imposi tions of fines on townslands, &c.) as required Grand Juries In levy half the expenses on townslands, &c. General It 11a, in supporting the rtlotion„ declared he would prefer placing Ireland under the operation of martial law, than under the present system of rapine and plunder that Wile perpcivated by Excise Officers. Lend MOUNTCHARLES supported thollrlotion likewise. - - - - - STOREKEEPER GF,NERAL's DEPARTMENT. Mr. HUME moved for a variety of Papers connected with the Storekeeper General's Department. He also moved for return of the number of men helorigin:: to the 50th and 92d ktegitirvrts, that had embarked for the West Indies—the time of embarliation—the.ditte of arrival, and the nninher of deaths t hot had taken place in these regiments durihg the voyage— Ordured. The ArronNEY GENERAL put off his motion , tespect , ing the Courts of Justice in Westminster Hall to this day. M NCH ESTER AFFAIR. Sir F. BuRDETT postponed his motion on the Manchester affair to Thursday the 92d instant. The Glass Bill passed through a Committee.—The Customs Dillies Regulation Bill was ordered to be read the third time rut Friday.—The ,Report nn the. Dublin Foundling Hospital Bill, as also that on the Dublin House of Industry Bill, were brot4;ht up and the amendments having been agreed to, it was ordered to be read the 3d time on Friday. - MLSSAGE FROM THE QUEEN. At a quarter ipls! live o'clock, the House being crowded to excess, , Mr. 11notionArd rose in his place, and said that he was contufamled by the QUEEN to lay bef9re the House, of Commons, a Message, of which the following is a copy The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then read. her Miiicsty's Mes sage, as follows : " The Queen thinly it necessary to inform the House of Commons, that she has been induced to return to England, in consequence of the Measures pursued against her honour .and her peace, for some time, by secret Agents abroad, and lately sanctioned by the conduct of the Government at home. lit adopting this course, her Majesty has had no other pur pOse whatsoever but the defence of her character; and the inaintenance Of those just rights, which have devolved upon her by the death of that revered Monarch, in whine high honour and unshaken affection she had always found bet surest support, _ . , " Upon her etriral, the Queen is surprised to find that a Message has been sent down to Parliament, requiring its at tention to written documents, and she learns with still greater astonishment, that there is an intention of .pro posing that these should he referred to a Select Committee. It is this day fourteen years since the first charges were . brought forward against her Majesty. Then, and upon every occasion during that long period, she has shown the sitm,,st a eadiness to meat her accusers, and to court the ful lest inquiry into her conduct. She now also desires' an open iiireitigation, in which she may see both the charges and the witnesses agninst her, a privilege not denied to the meanest subject of the realm. In the face of the Soverci;n, the Parliament, and the Country, she solemnly protests against the formation of a Secret T►ibnnal to examine docu ments privately prepared by her adversarief, as a proceeding unknown to the law of .the land, and a flagrant violation of all the principles of justice. She relies wills , full confidence upon the integrity of the House of Cowmons for defeating the ot►ly attempt she has any reason to fear. . _ " The Queen cannot forhearto add, that even before any proceedings were resolved :upon, she has been treated in a mannertoo well calculated to prejudge her case. The omis sion of her name. in. the Liturgy—the withholding the means df`conVeyance usually afforded to all the branches of the Royal Family—the refusal even of an answer to her applica tion for a place of residence in the Royal mansions, and the studied stights both of English Ministers abroad, and of the Agents of all foreign Powers over whom the English Govern ment has any influence, must he viewed as measures designed to prejwlice the world against her, and could only have been justified by trial and conviction." The Eln►nonrable and Learned Member having con I.ided, laid the Paper on the table. CONSIDERATION OF THE RING'S MESSAGE. On the i i 'inn of Lord CASTLIMPAOH, the Order of the DAy for taking his Majesty's Message into consideration, and the Message itself, having been read, _ _ Lord CASTLERRAGII rose.—ln calling the atten tion of the House to the course of proceedings which he should propose to adopt, he trusted the House would feel as he did the painful and deli cate nainre of the task imposed upon him. The present was one of the most distressing public questions ever agitated in Parliament ; and he as sured the House, that if he was not convinced that everLeffort had been made to avert from Par liament the dischatge of this arduous duty, he should rise with a still heavier heart than pressed on him on the present occasion. The usual course, whenever any recommendation had been made,by the othe'r branches of the Legislature, and particularly from the Throne, was to take it into the earliest consideration, and after it bad been taitly examined, the Home was led to pro-. notince its judgment, and to enter into the dill- , enssion of the various points which might arise. He might say, on the authority of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite, that great exaggera tion and numerous misrepresentations had been practised on this most important question, out side of the House. This would make it his duty to travel beyond what might have otherwise ap peared sufficient to offer to tl►e House inexplanation of the citcionstances brought to its tiew. Bat he ivnuld not go s o far as to interfere with the sound discretion of the House. His object would be to heels the minds of Parliament in a candid disposi tion to hear the truth of the snhject, a disposition which the tone . assumed to-night sv as, he feared, calculated to destroy. He should now address himself to that part of the subject which arose out ot,a question put to hin► yesterday, and which led naturally to the object now under considers - tion- lie had been 1-9tiested to state what was the nature .of - the proceedings which his Ma jesty's Ministers should think it their duty to itropose or recommend to the House on this itn- portant and delicate question. Bat he should 1 protest, in limine, againt any attempt which had been, or might be made, to represent Ministers or the :Crown as coming down to the House with a tone of persecution or prosecution. He appealed to the [louse whether any part of their conduct led to any sncli conclusion ? He also trusted, that when the House adverted to the terms of his Majesty's Message, it would be of opinion that the communication could not have been made in more gracious terms—(Laughter nn the Opposition side)—or terms more calcu lated to lead to a temperate discussion. The King threw himself, as he was entitled by the Constitul;on to do, on the great Council of the nation, in a yiestion in which the interests .of the country were as deeply involved as the honour of the Crown, and called upon them to give hint that advice which, under the circum stances in which his Majesty stood, they would think most proper. With respect to the manner of taking'tl►e Message into consideration, he din not suppose there could be any difference of opi nion. It was impossible, till it had been taken into consideration in the. usual manner, that the House should he aware of the 'mime of the papers. And he could assure the House, that no h►ng which might fall front him on this occasion,—no vote which he might ask, would tend in the least degree to fetter the juti.gment ratliameot on the mode of proceeding, or bias it on the question, or whether' on the face of the information there were grounds fur any proceedings at all_ He should, however, not act fairly to the Honour able and Learned Gentlemen opposi , e, it he did not state, that there was in ow papers communi cated matter of the, gravest and deepest concern, as involving the interests of the Country and the honour of the Crown. He considered tht Mes sage sent down b.y the Queen as recommended by her Legai Advisers ; and when that Message spoke of secret communications, ,ot charges resting-ou written documents—and to be decided by some secret tribunal, which the House was to be in thiced to adopt, through the prejudices .exciied against the Queen, tie wished to relieve ti,e Ho nourable and Learned Gentleman from such n be lief and apprehension.. There was a great differ ence between a charge and actual guilt ; but he s hould transgress against his duty if he attempted to describe in detail what the nature of those com munications was. He should, however, assure the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, that with re- spect to the credibility of the sources of informa tion, it Came from parties who► were prepared to appear before any Tribunal which might be ap pointed, with a view to corroborate in the mo•t solemn manner the truth of those depositions, which had been given in the first instance in a written shape. With respect to the course of pro eeediugs, it was astonishing' that the Queen's able legal assistants should not have suggested to her mind that it could never occur to a rational crea ture, to a Minister of the Crown, accustomed to the purest administration of justice, that even the slightest imputation of guilt could attach to the meanest subject of the State, without his being allowed an investigation, which would afford him, together with that publicity necessary to the ends of justice, a full opportunky of cross-exa mining evidence, rebutting testimony, and ins ' peaching tl►e character of the witnesses, with a degree of liberty which her Majesty must share, not is precedence, but in common with every subject in the country.--( Hear, bear, beer Without shaking the principles of British juris prudence, he apprehended that it was a most seri ous question for the great council of the nation to decide o►n a course of proceedings most likely to lead to the establishment of innocence and honour, it they could be asserted. His Majesty had call ed upon the House to adopt such a course as would best satisfy the ends of justice, and protect the honour of the Crown ; he therefore should submit to the House that course of proceedings taken by Parliament on so many occasions before. —(Hear, bear, hear ! trom the Opposition.)— No one could deplore more sincerely than he dud, the necessity of bringing so anxious a case before the House, but because it was a most aoxious case, and one perhaps unprecedented, it did not follow that there was no mode to be adopted on the occasion. After a Committee from their own body bad examined the information, and brought to the view of Parliament all the precedents which might, by analogy, guide their proceedings, then alone could they be prepared to discuss whether the transaction thould be pursued before the High Court of Parliament, or taken in the shape of a Bill before the Legislature of the country. He should therefore feel it his duty, on every ground, to propose that the Documents should be examin ed in a Committee of Secrecy. At the same time be wished to guard against the idea that the de cision of the . Committee should in the Nast in volve the merits of the case• itself. It would no more do that ther the decision of a Grand Jury. --(Hear, hear, hear ! from the Opposition.)— He repeated that be did not consider that on the determination of the Committee the guilt or inno cence of the Illustrious Individual should in the least depend. They would only examine the in formation and report on its nature to the House, with their observations with respect to precedents and the course of proceedings to be adopted. It would at the same time be the duty of the House to gear(' that investigation with all the most solemn forms of inquiry. As to the mode of choosing the Committee, he bad not been able to find that the House had proceeded to choose a Secret Committee, as in the case of Sir Thomas Rnmbold, where the inquiry incidentally led to a charge, otherwise than by ballot. But as be consi dered that the formation of the Committee would he an important feature in this transaction, he should now give notice that when the opportunity should arrive, he should feel it his duty to propose to the House to nominate a Committee, in order to allow greater facility for discussing the formation of that Committee, and that it -should be composed of the Members most capa ble of advising the House on the subject. He looked on the Committee as not tending in the least to judge of the merits of the question, though he admitted, that it would be highly important if it should report that there were no grounds to institute any proceedings at all. He assured the Hon. and Learned Gentleman op posite, that ha could not feel more relieved than he (Lord Castlereagh) should, if such should be 1 the nature of the Report of the Committee. It there were any indkiduals who had a personal interest in finding that the charge of guilt was unfounded, it was those who, stood in the situa tion of his Majesty's Ministers. There had beet] no temptation fur them to rush into this itliewiry, either as Members of Parliament, or as Meartiers of his Majesty's Council. Nothing should he de cided in the Committee but the mode in which the question should come to Parliament, in order to place the Queen in a situation in which she could most effectually vindicate her character. It I - he imagined that any other interest was to ire re ferred to that Committee, there were no two in dividuals whom he should feel more imperatively called upon to nominate amongst its members than the to o tionourable and Learned Gentlemen opposite, the legal advisers of her Majesty. But as he conceived the case to 'stand, he should think it inexpedient to introduce them into the Com mbtee ; for should the Committee report that thete was nothing to impeach the conduct of the Illustrious Party whom they assist with their ad vice, arid that 'there was no occasion to proceed farther, th;s happy decision would receive no addi tiOnal recommendation, either.in the estimation of her Majesty or in that of the Public, from hav ing bet-n come to in conjunction with the two Learned Gentlemen who held the ►mportant and honourable office of het Majesty's legal Advisers. On the other hand, if the report stated that there was enough of grave matter in the documents laid before the Committee to advise some ulterior proceeding, +hey would be placed in the most em barrassing dilemma bet ween their private and their public duty. If they concurred in the opi nion that there was sufficient ground for ulterior proceedings, how much more painful would such a decision prove to the House, when sanctioned by two Honourable and Learued Gentlemen who stoatd in such a situation. If they thought it their ditty to protest against the decision of the Cemmittee, under what disadvantage would they not labour at being among the number of those through whom that decision had been formed. He therefore submitted to the House, whether, lot every purpose of public justice and of duty to their illustrious Client, these two Honourable and Learned Gentlemen were not much more tree to act by being omitted, than if they were to form any part of the Committee. This would no, !ne cktie the House from guarding the inquiry by taking very precaetionto sift the matter to the bott o m. I t %e ntail be open for the House, as in the case of Sir T. Reinhold, betore instituting prove-slings in the nature of a Bill, and he guarded against being undelstood to have any preference for that , particular mode, to take the precaution of referring the Report of the Committee, to a Committee of. :the whole House, in which the whole subject would be laid before the view of the House, and might .be discussed by resolutions. He had endeavoured to meet the question pet to hip - last night as fully and fairly as it was in his power. He had at tempted to describe what would be under the view of the House at large, that, assisted by the light derived from the Committee and their own investigation, they might decide whether the case was one for the legislating of Parliament, for an appeal to the High Court of Parliament, or for a reference to the ordinary Tribunals of the Country. He had some observations to make on what had alreatfy taken place in connection. with her Ma jesty's return, Doing this, he was unwilling to detain the House unnecessarily, by going into de tails, hut he was anxions.to protect them against error and delusion ; and appealed to them now not to decide on any part of this question, but simply called upon them to preserve that temper which was necessary to its dispassionate discus sion, when the subject should come before them on a future occasion. He could assure Ihe Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, and the ..,earned and Hon. Gentleman near him, that it wlis impossible for them to fedi the deep responsibility attached to every step which Ministers might take in these most painful. proceedings, more sensibly than it was felt by himself and his colleagues. For them and for himself he had no favour to ask of the House.,.but that they would closely watch the conduct of the whole of his Majesty's Ministers, and determine if there was aught in their'Conduci which was dictated by any feeling other than that of regard for the honour and dignity of the Crown. At present;lowever, he thought it was a little premature to criticise their conduct as it had been criticised,' while•the filets of the case were so imperfectly known to the II nose. He apprehended'they could nor be in a situation to judge of the advice given by Ministers, till they were in possession of further infoimation as to the circumstances in which the Illtistrions Parties con cerned in this question stood at the time that that advice had been offered'. 'rill these Were known, till the facts on which they had proceeded, and which ought not to be connected with any of the stories now afloat in the country, were brOught before them, till these were known (though God forbid that be should for a moment essuthe that there was any presumption of guilt which might not be rebutted by evidence), the conduct of Mi nisters could not be understood. Till the circum stances to which be had alluded' could be explain ed, he hoped that, even in tile eyes of the Hon. and Learued Gent. himself, it would not appear that there was any thing so flagrant in the con duct of Ministers as to merit condemnation in the present state of the proceedings. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had last night not merely in sinuated, but he had broadly stated, that it lay on the Government not - Meiely to snake out a strong mist of blame against the Queen ie the first instance; hut Mao to prove that at the moment when the decision was taken' tO'littiviie the King to send that Message down to Parliament 'which was now before them, no . other course could be taken. This the Hon. Gentleman had . saiil would be necessary to justify the advice to given. Now, it frequently happened tliat tiittse who agreed upon most public questions were, in particuler cases, as much at issue with each otlicr as with those to whose views they' were generally op= posed. In proof of this, he would refer to the opinions given some time, hack by two individuals to whom be must listen- with great respect on tole or any other subject--the Hight Hon. Gen tleman, and the Hon• AIO I.4earned Gentleman opposite: The Right lion. Gentleman, when mention was made of the Queen before the . rangement of the Civil List, whether be spok e from information Which be had individually re' ceived, or from the impression then made on tile public mind, he knew not, but the Right HolP Gentleman bad then ersJed the attention of the House to the rumours which were afloat, and give°, it as his opinion, that conduct like that impolc u to her Majesty went to degrade bee high sill": two, and he therefore thought the rumours question ought to be disproved before any ( ;ran t was made in favour of her 111aiesty and it° thought he was tight when be added, that tha t Right Hon. Gentleman had further remarked, th at not to bring the subject fairly before the House , was to expose the King to indignation, of ollie h he ought not to be the object, or to oppress, instills and vilify another illustrious personage, by holding from her that justice 'Which she had 6s right to expect. would be rendered to her in the face of the country. The Hon. and Learned GO'. demon bed thought, on the contrary, that it 049 the duty of Government not to bring forward: in the shape of a charge, 40°71114260n which til e / might have received from various quarters, bu t , which most of necessity be the nature ex-parte evidence. Such a course did not ar pear to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to be due to the King or to the Parliament ; but 0 1 the contrary, he thought that it was the duly °' Ministers to avoid all painful disclosures, which' whether true or false, could not fail to p rod uce painful sensation in the country , to agita te ite public mind, and disturb the general traoquilliq' Such a coarse of proceeding he therefore t it would he desirable to avoid, finless it should b e forced upon them.by the strong hand of nece4sitY; From that lion. and Learned bent lemats he I's l. beard no relaxation on these points, and e vert the conversation , of yesterday, speaking as (b e advocate of her Majesty, hr had been disposed charge it upon Ministers, that they bad not Or; riett their forbearance far enough ; and to cont e% that even after the arrival of the Careen in th i e country, they ought not immediately to have 00, y down with a Message from tire bin it-e 0 might still have kept open what be bad V g to pleased to call " the door of negociation," . l• hope that something might arise to lelieve ttl House from .be painful and arduous do' y wltt they were now forced to take neon themsel o o , Now be would own that if he had bad any doub t of the 14,, priety of the course pursued by Ministers (which he had I d i o it. wool(' have arisen from an idea that fotheararcc ti o t extended somewhat too far. The transaetrois of the ',A sight.and forty hours furnished a pretty sufficient com4seis on what might have been expected from a negociation, was called, since it was seen, that the Illustrious Persoo4e who was the subject of this discussion, was so littl e under ;4, coonsel of the Hon, and Learned Gentleman (tier t el yiser), that by his own confession those documents can we ir with the arrangement lately proposed, which had heels - Po lished, had been so publi,hed without his consent. I le Brougham) had felt it due to himself to declar'e,'t hat he l ov not advise-I that publication, and to aihnit that it was-guin bled, imperfect, and untrue. Under whatever lamentiteo and be might add criminal advice - , that publication had talijo place, it was evident that the object of it was to'aolt e "'vet the lower orders of the people.—( Hear, Ilea& heal !;- - "',s; the purposes which it was intended to answer could be 4 I ) cealed from no °lie who did nut wilfully shut his eyef' at't e any feeling but regret could have place in his. reast e moment, he should rejoice that, from th i e the case, ito doubt could exist as to the course which liters, had taken on this melancholy occasion ; that the l i ce e trious Personage herself had been fully apprised of their„ f sli. lotion; and that the conduct of Ministers, free front 3''„ctl, guise, bad made her distinctly' understand the conseq ue :„o, to which the step that she had resolved upon must inevTie, and immediately lead.—(Hear, hear, heart) —Hi' a'.." wish to insinuate any thing to the prejudice of her Mar,' much less to throw blame (so the step which she had t:l4;flii she felt assured that she could estairlish tier innocence., rye , feelings of human nature in such a case would ,enureo,,i.;ii up In her behalf. It was, however, of importance t '',; 1 0 . ,7 should be known, that the course intended to be pill Ministers had never been concealed from the parties be titled to be made acquainted with their decision. '7 statement the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would bi e '' ' ee out, as to hint the inientions'of Ministers had been c ori i ; s municated at the earliest period at which they c ould lir 1) noinicated; and he believed be mieht sal, that ineYetic been known to the Ho mumble stud Learned (,efly man for the last month. Tide was the cast sulsject 10 01 ' with which he,. could wish to -connect anydiscusst"",,e, words, but he thought, if at all tlisposed ly bad a right to quarrel with the use male of the woru 6 poo g,ociatioa" by the Hon. and Learned Ge atlernan e wlee" to di, ine on this subject. He, for I. part, in opoositionti,o; Hon. and Learned Gentleman, conceived - tot never- 13 .,,, , ,, all to have taken place, unless an Inrelerv,4l eepo'''" what were the news of Ministers deserved that nitioe.4 however, could not admit that they had entered ititoaVll gociation, or that they Had offered anything like a 1 ,1. 0 0 . 0 thelL'eustrioa , Individual whose - case was now t o he ord under the ccosideration of Parliament. All that ' 1 ' 3 ,1 It done by Ministers came to this — they had exelilineeqoPol views to her Majesty, and info' med her, that t h e cOO% „l i e of her return to this country would he, that the wio' l l eei. , ) conduct ust immediately become the su!lect ,li t tary Inquiry. He had 104. thought that it was Illy I / Goverionent to bring forward this question at all Majcsiy remained abroad. On the contrary, is'aS4o,l), 'lion, that the necessity of such an appea l might b e t ide'il and that that separation which had been so f ar j u',. a V id explained, that it had been recognised by Parliament', Bill had passed to .regulate. the relative situation of troerq trious Patties, might have been continued wit boat thence to the par ties, and wit bout calling for: t oy 0':141',4 ference on the part of the Legislature. If, then, ty had chosen to remoin in a foreign country,. he el" t ort thought it his duty, -by.every means in his fe+w er ,',,.4 those calamitous discussions which were tin' 1.1",04,(, He had no hesitation saying that such was the he would.havei acted,. and he was astonished at lbei 40'4 tines which had fallen from. an Honourable Genlialol, posite, (he must impute them to the warmth 1 went), who had concerted Ministers to ha ve hee",F;, most flagrant breach of duty in offering Ite r Maids' ,t , had been pleased to call a bride.. He denied th4t t3e bad been offered, and he denied that the Sero'L'l Crown had at all, forgotten what thiy owed to 41 '; le e, ,/, lion of their Country, by entering tato w h a t 10'i" of ' s e/ scribed to be a negociation without th e aothotit) 0 .0 ye men% It was the C o nstitutional practice for lb_ e ,; 00 1OA adopt. such measures in pecuniary matters as it 5 ' oo t/ fit.in the existing earcninstances of .the conotrY9foil,ioti wards apply to Parliament to make the street , ' t o , t o 0,,i , House would allow him to recal to their recollect; t ei 4 / 1 ; little were the llouse disposed to take umbrage 11.0,111, of to oceeding, that it had been, the constaoh.' (-,000 able practise. a subsidy were g.iven to-11 10 '1 1 0 /? ing the country to be engaged in a war) to a for4, - , (1 .0 0 the first step he would take would be to advise rt fert o ji contract for the subsidy, Without making anYiersto!,,,, 'yarliament in the Treaty. It was so well n' c ietsi tp eA the Crown, in making such a treaty, only e1144 4e ,s t° I ( best exertions to gam the sauctioo of Parlian!ei_t posed grant, that any stipulatioo on the 5019 . e: of the treaty was wlailly unneeiss ar y . In t") the same course would have be ell pur sued, an ti ..r. circtonstances, could it.he for a nioment stlfir" ' lO ve of the Crown, -that in the measure resorted tnta cut' the slightest intention of encroaching 011 ti .edttitly functions of Parliament. Eiivioe always s u rf la It` l n Pt.d. the intention of her Majesty to remain ahroaiie thatit would be right to return Cu that slie%;),e o ei ,- ',V allowance which had formerly been granted e ee, e ol.ei which she had thought it her duty to dee', l :, - 'd Looking at the calamitous separation which . l e „...he looking at all the cirennistances of the c•" ,,e dercd it right to bring up her Majesty's which it bad formerly been proposed Ch3t miii old be e' t r o aer i 'e t . c o t' c tu c it n iti e l' Ide v e f il;ol , l,l ; . 01 : 111)17 :"f il b i : P ll4. King. he had therefore t hooght it (too' tlaj, char t Cut tit) th ; r ec flit