The Sun. — London, England, 1855-03-20 00:00:00

,t what icc •ueircastle) he Prr"" to bro; wait co on .e_ A nds the lee tt 0 (the P ek :a Raglan, I,‘ ; no ble earl not vg e was s com i le refore rcastle) to 'IT:. arklos°ll th it rroe P a rkinson_ t oted by /Jor'! • letter fro% ns .negativ,l,esffl;ia ,tteeonn.s:athat h he (the Pu n r cloing: ° 't 'the three e before eel jimson then 001 4, I will tiv . : l e t ;mods) thl for, ie pt hie and go' t er r to the le.ttej; a voted WI ltt erP . 0 that e bpd no ble ea t ) erate, earl Noe 13° ie st I -ge agai n rt i to „ no fortis would ect n eel B ill 'la. ug h cOMiljitriee'' tes befc're rye CERD AI ‘ fora 4 o'clocic• be dered i or u ps went w°Pater, cestone or, ;at C °l '" ri P ;lo - ) Gast an 1 from t h i n of A ,1 in W for to4 I from tan3P• •Al.ton V from Dr lo nl hole of S uj , ' :tle petitions, a ter Ashto n " 0 0 - al t of la st ' from • s er ns K ,sr the 118^ Olth ry a nd f r Lonae tn t the' LIOPO— g"- 1 . 0 3 oil • he better ,01 1 , ~a s re al 13 I D ou r petitionfros ne titiort oetropo atitioo 0 from 5 T?4; t 10 , ;fl i 1 4A P "ri› laW -th d er )or a large . o r the neW went 110 vernal , 'rade, An' CO " to oblige ,eep cation el ) ;seng- ti.; 0 last SeS' itlo Howevc 14100 Id I WOU Ederee * _ as newspapers subject to the compulsory etamP, tl e ne at portion of the impression might be stamped for / L f ie , enee of transmission through the post-office. ihee - ,, a e tilno, a portion of those periodical publications in bl Polite o ewe the proper sense of the word.: It was al news, but literary news, dews relating to the dab t .;eulcal, and other professions, and there can be no 141,.„,''':Lat's according to the strict construction of the law, te tn t'' ..i ntlaib er of class pablications which enjoyed partial te et aitY from the stamp were newspapers within the )are ee ' e alling of tbe law,-and subject .eo a penalty if any li, a?f the impression were unstampecl. Those ofdrelaxa §ies been, however, established, and this was the !te te. ", Practice which my right hon. friend found in ex dee last recess, when the subject came under - his consi '4l4tit°n• If the Government had decided to disregard the teee resolution of the house, and to attempt to en tr etrictly against these class ßdpr publications, in ti!_catuake its.administration uniform instead of enema ust have threctednumerous prosecute ons agait!st ktfat As a o f newspapers, or they must leave come to Perim °ra bill to render the existing law more severe and peer . 11 Y right hon. friend decided—and in my opinion zite n i c ,' Bo ll a very wise discretion—not to attempt to l e Law more strineent, but'to relax it, and at the same a!ab 9 1 alte it uniform. The plan which I run about ci In e it ti . e the committee is identical in substance and le, PI with the plan of my right hon. friend. The de not identical, but the plan is ; and whatever b tit 4 ,3' belon g t o th e a d op ti on o f it w ill b e d ue, not to tall to him. (Hear.) The outline of the bill which I tel e, if the permission of the committee to lay upon the tenle the resolutions shall be agreed to, is founded , of prindiple—to abolish the legal defied- Niett sprintnewspaper tor extend th publications resecting 1 1 1 1a41 ) erS to all d periodical which It4ll 8t intervals not greater than 31 days. With regard kt i , l e tl i odical s falling within that definition, the pre t:,,,„tl7 with respect to the publication of any news , a a,nout a stamp will be repealed, and lec op ntettl"lin the properietors of any such periodical either Zetl: 44 Y portion of their publication or to leave it al oc_tinstamped. If th ey s h a ll app l y t o h ave a por- Wlllh ine sheets stamped, the sheets which are se stamped ijetii9eaabjeet to precisely the same rule, with respect to la a tia contents, as existing newspapers are subject to. ce e -° the first sheet may contain 2,295 supe r fici a l t ta : r ried by a st a mp o f ono p enn y, an d th e secon d :04e hY contain 1,118 square inches carried by a stamp i Neti o ia rPenny. In that respect I propose t o ma k e no La tfiel .n, but simply to extend the present limit of 1 a l contents to all periodical publications whi c h klpee4tPPear within thirty-one days. I propose . with kp or t° all periodical publications which shall stamp e e t 4 1 ° 1 1 of their impression that they s h a ll b e ` te the existi ng ru l es w ith regar d t o registra ,4o4; i nsurance. The house is aware that any person V ati c o f Printing a newspaper at pr esen t ma k es a do or, to the St am p- o ffi ce, and he furnishes a copy of itt a mber of h is paper , which is registered at the a, ffice, and the production of which is at all times n eo B of the publication of the paper. I propose ' that Pn etor of any periodi c al w h o s h a ll b e d es i rous o f s i '"'Y portion of hislmpression shall be subject to MtOte with respect to the registration of his paper, .bohe shall bo subject to a similar rule with respect l e , s e lirities he shall give. Everya upwsnaner ,Iti e ,'° Present regulation is bound to prod cue tIVO 4 14 London for 600/, and in the 'Country , for :10()t; lk eti a asurance to answer any criminal prpsceution. or 41 1 i, ° , 11 for libel. These are pro s . 4 anao,f.shiseeiistiee' a e `zi we propose, to retain wit. St.' t 6 •Ilytewse e a q tee;: ti ell shall stampi any portion- en' •circu ation. fo r na why we propose to retain these proyisions aro 61 'sine time it has been the policy of this country Vace o l t . lo,ll spapers, as distin g uished froth peniphlete, • the %y e t i , ; s eparate legislation with reg a rd' to • securities: • It att i „.!inieliiiinicieed these securities havebeeYamended. Peace, and the policy on which their aro founded psternlsidereel to be settled. It appears, to me that s ;Naftali be jastified, and that_ there is; all4inaet.difes 1 5.1,, Te altreeu peaiphlets and newspapeA'nifh.resnecate I releepers 'have an establislYeel 4 11‘ I ° l li " • 8 Immediate and, to a great extent, universal,. eat oti ictilation of the matter contained in them is sim :tll4 f lYing on the wings of the post on the same day ljb of the - country. The consequence of this is, e Ntse e e i on any person in a newspaper exorcises an in- Zaaela influence, and one much greater than a libel in t"a in i c o t ; (Hear, hear.) There are gentlemen ia this , bey experience in the publication of pamph lat it cY know with what difficulty a pamphlet stilts tit tot • oriety. (Hear.) Attempts are made to gain le f 'icity, which are frequently not very successful, , 1 /(1 a ct, the circulation of a pamphlet is slow, and t lite ) , t a i nd Partial, whereas in a newspaper publication f0i,4911 is quick, simultaneous, and universal. I t ips k „ Ink that there were' reasons for imposing on al kt• " secarities which were not applicable to other e 4l atit i° t ll e s• But there was another reason. By the ori tttee, tae securities were limited to seditious and 'ae ro ci lls libels, and were first imposed for the eecurity i, i ivei n ' e e rtituent. But it was afterwards found that these e , 4 a e -4 i,cle securities which might be extended to the 4 'iir, e ,llat a subsequent time they were made to extend Private libel, and at present any private per- , a df ro gag an action against a 'newspaper, and is pro ' 4,, t libel by the means of these:securities. If, there alteq'tTrisions I have adverted to were repealed, the a ti lgich we now possess for good order would bo re v.etese one of the most valuable and effective securities aa en vect of private character `veduld. be taken away. ', e ett e ' n e e ations we propose to retain these provisions with ease k " . 4 periodicals which shall stamp a portion of their 'fieAt the same time I may say that these provi laential or necessary part ofthe plan which I house ; and, as far as I am personally con do not affect the interests of the They form, however,' part, of the criminal t existing, and the Government think that tded on sound policy, and they therefore pro them. I have now stated what I think will affect Of the plan I propose—to legalise the with respect to class publications. As re- Wieneenne, Builder, Medical Times, Medical they win be permitted by law to claim that Inch these class papers 110'77 possess, though by law, to stamp or not any portion of their Lich they may desire ; and the same indul extended to -the entire press. With respect iapers,, such as the Times, the Morning Chro mg Herald, Advertiser, &c., they will be sub same rules as the Athenceum, and shall be Imp as much of their impression as they like it, and to publish without the stamp as much it for their interests to do. Beyond these cot propose to go. (Hear, hear.) The bill bunt to the house will be confined to this. I willenow proceed to examine certain ob have been made to this plan. One of these would be great confusion caused in the by printing a portion of the impression on ter and a portion on unstamped paper, and enid, Consequently, be a loss to the newspaper I have made inquiries with the view to Iv far that objection is valid. It has been , return number of existing class newspapers, of th. 'tirn has been moved for by my honourable ~ kll el; Member for Westminster, amount to 137, 4 a ?se cond uc t th e i r b us i ness w ith a mixed artemu 41ttj stamped and part unstamped ; and as no coup be been beard from tke conductors of this class of f%'Papers, it may be presumed that no difficulty ( aa ei ° ntid in p r i n ti ng an d pu bli s hi ng the mixed circa -4444 Propose. One of the principal newspapers which oa h a ' Portion of its impression on stamped and a por eeN eV i stanaped paper is that periodical familiarly liter all members of this house, namely, Punch. 5 1 1 6S51: 1 Punch made up only 425,000 , stamps in the wn a ti I understand that its circulation is about te e 'ar e of which about 8,000 are stamped and Ntr ' 46 temped. I have had an interview with the i t ) 4en of that publication. (Loud laughter.) ;Natr e l not with reference to the manner in whichthat , 4 , 1 1 t c g, Publication is compiled, but with ,reference to ei'ati e ,; ( difficulty in printing the mixed impression, and 4 ittl e , t h of,Punch informed me that there was not the t ae6,''Y in that respect, and that there was not the Oe s t k ' a lou caused by printing a part stamped and a ti iPed ? and that there was no loss. (Hear.) But 4cinrther enquiry of the publisher of the Athenctum, i 11 t 4 , 11 11-B Paper is printed partly on stamped and partly lit trtit t‘te,d paper, and the gentleman who conducted it et, 'here was no practical difficulty or loss in the eta " iniaecl circulation. He stated that the num 'et ; copies varied very considerably at different t it at at that period of the year when gentlemen e i;ati Of London there was a mach greater demand for r 'e je all ot ?°,pies t o be sent by post than existed at ()they t,tene year but that there was no loss and no addl.- s - _ l %) T e le of 'consequence caused by that variation. s e 7 ; e l aa're consulted the manager of the Illustrated ; 1 4> 110 V, a newspaper which I understand circulates ' ,"°0 copies a-week, and that gentleman, who is 'A t i . ;ainted w ith pr i n ti ng an d p u bli s hing matters, gave 1, 4 41: t °pinion that no difficulty would arise to his or galp ed newsp a per from the adoption of a mixed system Ni t ate unstamped impressions. (Hear.) But an )kotiir,.—"len, and that of a more serious character, has j t ;. 4 enten to me by persons who have described the / ii kt Nle -(1 to repeal the-compulsory newspaper stamp as a the' c at - dangerous to anciety--aa measure whichwould ti t w aY to sedition and blasphemy, that would N, al h e inundation of the country by a centlous and !k ti Fei ie ' r eaa thus undermining the foundations of society 1 . 1 04 . 1 the - seeds of revolution in the land. These ex -4‘knlo it ee t t r,ce not exaggerated representations of the 'e,, ; Al e ""icia have been declared to me in many quarters e ll ioaaure was.first notified. I regret to say that N e i (l e,.° 11 . friend the member for the Univereity , of '+a'aa i ti l been considered an accomplice with the Ciro -14w,'4). th ol this dangerous and wicked design. But I need tf if her Majesty's Government believed that hkate; anY foundation for these views, or for any pert 4 711, It ti e t these views, they would not propose the mea :llN t el now submit to the consideration of the houses 14,tee, tie greatest confidence in the stability of our in aoll the soundness of our social system, and in the at n morality of the great body of the people; and we L ke: ki rta t e tieve that giving this facility to the public to • ae," el l.discussed by the press will lead to any such e e - e . c °,a as those I have alluded to. But we are not nt h tt c ,,' Indirect reasoning as to the effect which will an unstamped press. There are at present large 7) p, a Pere not containing news and not subject to a .1 114 which circulates largey throughout the couns 1'41)4°1401 these do not ccintaiu l news, if it was true that Vtie c of thi s coun t r y wine desirous of immoral or Nli ikte7."lter these' publications would be . found of a L e nt character from what they are found. (Hear.) te, in t he Illustrated News which circulates 140,000 1) f e i,eek, and is eeoond - or nearly second to the hat t newspaper is well known, and I need not • nia- tleas t ea conducted in a manner altogether unexcep nt there aro other publications unstaniped, sold § e e t cle,, Pr e ic ° , which circulate very widely among the till ; ea ' One of these periodicals, of which I never e lt4le e f i tently is the London Journal, a penny weekly *al t . to ‘Yhich circulates, lam told, 510,000 per week, 11 13 1 °4 e ci rculation of 26,520,000 per annum. That cir es ate iiceedetl by 10,0Q0,000 the circulation of the Time*, ime t tma Iles e as Published only once a week, whereas the l aoe tai Published six times a week. I have examined 4 :...,. 4 , 1 3 1 mbers of that journal, and I find that they 4, 11 11 4 i1i10 e what the Penny Magazine, giving some in i(), qq, lila certainly not corresponding with that fright tnf a. cheap publication which the imagination of J b le4: l l) . . 4 .,eV e o ettotheproposal I now make kith:house con-. e ns cts e , re Is another publication, the Family Herald, %,:ete r , s t`a Ws 240,000, or 12,500,000 per annum, and the thei"' cheap paper is dinner to the other. Th ese facts t skjiat iet „in the spontaneoup case of a poorer class of I tl c, ft,, °l ,j ol ; the tastes of the public lead them to prefer a ) ~,daee r na l wholly innocuous in character andlfree from tl er°llB elements which have been feared. If we tea oteße threverse of the picture we shall find that some . whi sll o r B were five or six publications in London, t i l l i itiet ra :4vas called the Town, of a licentious character, Leen at thesens corresponding wieh their letter-press,. t) e c f niee h had attained a considerable circulation. 114' Pink ° • v e essured me that the whole of that ‘desci ip o~e4lcations is now extinct.. (Hear, hear.) There Of that clan, Where were some of a ord of t he rfrer liti'toV° -"I° had de tiglej,.,l: iktila°:llPl f merit ; tt,"e'i ;4•4,,te 'Th. ./ l evir and ,diioj te t o --, es, ,1 serch , i s, 0, 1,, , c4 a ,, ,',. the 'ether it..ps 0; ktt,`Let,:e3' t into 1 goel , 411.4 en of r at a lie inte nOic,;°,o ' >, irliolind the des( !Pp: rub. ell es ; but. !at; 'llia ,v, [or were ,01, J , Atilt) P:ce , t N wh . i:.2, 5 , g had ^,eer I°4 ' b of ' - 10DISI ‘li*ill whi the • Lica b e e 1431,,,,.1 par re. nin . „usir the 9 -Close c if' o$ t o ,s' sue his pi gfr;f lil I,° star n new writ 'of ;)' I P.,081 the coneti ,101:IIcli' 't. t c , ° ni o t , he, sub ' ti, wiri:) • for Tyitel'e°ll,°:, 4 tit there tiou rel ati; ties 00 tillierl'aPer ernineut; 0,14 'tot:), woti >ring it for' 4411: i '" ,,t iltila„ .ow ! a .th, THE SU i\T LO _ DON TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 2W, 1855. rather laigher, class. The Age, the Satirist, the Argus, &c., which enjoyed a. considerable circulation some years ago; but these have All ceased to exist. (Hear, hear.) And it may be broadly stated that licentious publications in- this couetry have not long enjoyed any extensive circu lation. But there has been another objection raised to this proposal—that there will be one press for the rich and another for - the poor—ono for the (wealthy classes, for the upper classes; anti the ether, the cheap newspaper, for, the lower classes. To a. certain extent that state of thinee exists .at present. There aro newspapers alike printed at a cheap rate and aro taken in exclusively by the poorer classes. Two of these were called the News of the Word and Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper, and these have the largest circulation after-the Times. This great circulation is due to the fact that the prico of the paper is threepence. But oven with these results it may be doubted if there will be reason to regret it—if a class of newspapers grow up which are moral an I useful in their tendencies it may be.of advantage to have them circulating among the poorer classes of society. '.Wo aro not to assume that a class of nowspapsrs will be addressed to the public which will be tainted by immoral or anti-social doctrines —(hear, hoer) ;—and those who devote themselves to the education and instruction of our population will here find a field for their labours. That the present necessity of im posing a stamp on every copy of a newspaper is in some instances detrimental to the revenue is shown by an ei treet from aletter`publiehed by the noble lord themene-7 ber for Leeds. (Tao right Iron. gentlemen read au esitre4 stating that the proprietor of a small paper publiehedeo4o a fortnight preferred sending a messenger round toeteliVi his paper to stamping it and sending it by the post, wlieris by the revenue lost 81. for ()Very publication.) Under'th; regulation I propeee it will be optional for all parties.-to stamp or not, wholly or in part. . Having shown thet public local newspapers now established will enjoy inl• creased facilities, I doubt much if any similar results-would be enjoyed by new newspapers. No newspaper can ever circulate largely unless Mee a good medium for advertise meuts. It is from advertisements that a newspaper is maintained—out of the profits. Small local newspapers will never be profitable vehicles of advertisements, and therefore they will never become good newspapers. The established provincial newspapers, having large capital and a consider able circulation, and being in possession of the field, will enter in competition with similar newspapers on the most advantageous terms. The newspaper sketched by my right honourable friend the member for Manchester as•soon as the stamp is taken oil seems to me to be a visionary pro dilation. Ido not think that many newspapers will be established. There is another objection to the present measure-ean Objection which was adverted to in the other house—that it" will cause a loss of revenue. (Hear.) If • we had at this time a surplus revenue, and if the expendi ture'of the country did not greatly exceed the ordinary income; the newspaper stamp would have fair claims to be considered. But this was not the state of things at pre sent ; and ifthe,, house should ascertain that a cert a i n l oss would follow the adoption of this measure, it would be my duty to provide for . the deficiency by some other mode of taxation. (Ironical cheers from the Opposition.) The pre sent stamp duty produces rather more than 400,0001., and it is estimatedthat the doss which will be created by the change I propose, that is the , repeal of the compulsory stamp, will be 200,000/. (Ironical cheers.) There are at the same time some facts that may lead to the inference that, after the) compulsory tax shall he repealed, news ; papers ',Will continue to print. a considerable part of their v isepressiOns on stamped paper. I .may state souse facts, th respectto tiecirculation of the 7imes which will -row some light on this part of the question. The Times ieleculetes about 59,000 per diem, of which the newsagents Zatribute 33,000, and of which 26,000 go to the country. 'Of these 26;009, 20,200 are sent by railway trains, and 5,800 are sent by post. I assume that at least three-fourths: of the whole impression of the Times passes through the', post, and a great proportion three' ore four times. I am'e • leisured that of Ilitepaavincial paperti about two-thirds ate sent directly theongh the poets 'Theee facts lead to the Serene° that the positige-stamp.i.e.feiend a convenience in tiro transmission of - iiewspapere, awl' even should it cease 'to be a conipulsery staiap,n, lerge portion of the circula tion of newspapers would pais through the post ; and if the alteration of the law will lead to any large increase of newspapers, it will also of necessity lead t o a l arge in crease in the paper duties, and that will in some sort com pensate for the loss .1 have above referred to. But, accord ing to the estimate which has been made, the loss which will accrue to the revenue cannot be tales at less than 200,0001. Srkeh a loss to the revenue is considerable. (Hoar, henr.) But the house should bear in mind that the alter native they have to choose is the receding from the unani- Mous resolution passed last session and the passing of a more stringent measure for collecting the newspaperstamp duty. (Ifsear, hear.) I have only to add that it has been suggested to me, since the resolutions were laid on the table of the house; that the plan would be more perfect if it included all sorts of printed matter, and not merely periodical publications. But' that involves the question of a cheap, book poitage. There is the present law, under which, by the payment of 6d. each, books weighing not more thaiL one pound can be carried through the post, and other Changes may be in progress. But it is ;or the, Lords of the Treasury to modify the existing system, and establish, ,if found desirable, a lower scale. However, the Goveia invent think the question of the transmission of periodical publications by past stands on different grounds Irt on books. I admit the importance of the regulations with respect to a cheap 'book postage, and, should the house deem it desirable, I will take that into cons aeration hereafter. But I may here state one fact. A. :cording to the information given last session to the coma aittee on the railway post, the following appears the weigl ate of the different articles transmitted. Out of 300 artic lee sent by post, letters were only 13 per cent., books 2 per cent., newspapers 76 per cent., and bags 9 per cent. iffear, hear.) Judging by the weight, then, news papers form by far the largest portion of the articles trans mitted by post, whereas books were only 2 per cent. The right h on.- gentleman concluded, by moving the following resoluti .e ns " Th .at it is expedient to amend the laws relating to the stamp duties on'newspapers, and to provide for the trans mission by post of printed periodical publications. " any periodical publication, to be entitled to the privileg v) of transmission .and retransmission by the post, shall be printed on paper stamped for denoting the stamp duty inx posed by law on a newspaper, printed on the like number of sheets or pieces of paper, and of the like dimen sions vvi th respect to the superficies of the letterpress thereof— , ' • "That printed. newspapers(British, Colonial, or Foreign) shall be. transmitted by the post between places in the United. Kingdom and ber Majesty's Colonies or Foreign Counts ies, or between any ports or places beyond the sea (whet': or through the United Kingdom or not), either free of post age or subject to such rates of postage, not exceed ing two 4 pence for each newspaper,' irrespective of any charge for foreign postage, as the commissioners of the Treasut y, or her Majesty's Postmaster-General, with th e i r consent, shall from time to time think fit." Mr. GLLAD3T9NE --I have listened with great interest to the ye ryeslaborate Statement of my right hon. friend, and I enetirely agree with him in the opinion he seems to entertain , that it would be botter that this bill should be printed. s ,nd laid before the house; and .that there should be some brief opportunity at least of giving it considera tion bell )re we enter into any full discussion of its merits, or into.. any comparison between the particular provisions of my right hon. friend's measure and that of which I had. the he , nc.ur of introducing. Parental partiality, probably, renders mean unfair judge on this subject, but I cannot deny 1 hat I regret the change which my right hon. friend proper fors. (Hear.) At the same time,. in considering a measu ire of this kind, I think it is our duty, as members©f this it ease, to ask ourselves, not so much whether the mea sure t h at is proposed is in all respects conformable to our own N rishes and, predilections, or even whether it is the best le at in our opinion could be submitted to Parliament, but es 1 ether, upon the whole, it goes so far in avoiding all ex is ting difficulties of a serious and pressing character, and is introducing material and substantial improve ments. in the law/as to make it worth our while to recom mend a nd promote its adoption by the Legislature. That is the . principle upon which I desire to consider this bill when it shall •have been laid upon the table. There are, however, one or two points in the measure proposed by my right 'hon. friend upon which I wish to say a word. I con fess I was very glad to hear my right hon. friend signify, towns the close of his speech, that, he was not indisposed to gis . e a favourable consideration to the proposal provided it ape e ared to be in accordance with the wishes of the House, to introduce into his bill, not a qualification or al teratiioi s of the measure. but simply an extension of it, which would establish a moderate and low tariff for printed matter in general. I certainly think that such a regul action would be a most valuable addition to the bill, and - w6uld in no respect interfere with the principle which my rig ht hon. friend proposes to establish. I can con ceive : no reason whatever why newspapers or periodicals publish Led within 31 days should enjoy privileges that are denied to the feebler means and resources of those who may occasion sally, or under particular circumstances, wish to give th• e public the benefit of their thoughts in print. With x , aspect to one serious portion of this question to which. my right hon. friend adverted—namely, the effect of his measure upon the revenue—l would remind him that the introduction of a low and moderate postage tariff for printed matter of all descriptions would mates :jelly tend towards indemnifying him for the loss he is likely to sustain. I have no scruple in aches ting to this point, and I may remind the House that although the present tariff for the transport of books by p oat is not immoderate when it is applied to the case of what may fairly be called books—l mean works of considerable bulk, such, for instance. as the Quarterly or vlt Reviews, which approach the weight of a pound —yet, ) far as pamphlets are concerned, it is nearly a pro-. hibito ry duty. Indeed, it would very commonly better answer . the purpose of 'those who wish to circulate pamph lets through the post to send them as letters, subject...to the h rtter postage, than to avail themselves of the existing tariff for the transmission of books by post. I think, therofs bre, there is every necessity for an alteration in this respect . With regard to my right hon. friend's definition of periodicals, I do not intend to enter into that part of the cpiestion at present, but, if I understand his resolu tions :rightly, it appears to me that the only periodicals which: would be able to avail themselves of his proposition would be periodicals that conform, in a certain degree, to the an angemente of newspapers, and particularly periodi cals th et are limited to a couple of sheets. I must confess I appri Mend that this regulation will be found materially to limit the beneficial effect of my right hon. friend's mea sure; and, if so, it will be an additional argument for his adopti.'sg the proposal that greatly increased facilities should bo give; n for the circulation of printed matter, though not periodicals, by post. The next point I wish to mention is, one tee which I advert with greater unwillingness, but upon which I differ,from the views of my right honourable frienti. He has announced his intention to 'propose that the rise of the impressed stamp, which is to convey the poste d privilege, shall be conditional upon a registration that is to entail the giving of 'securities. (Hear, hear.) Now,. it is quite true that at the present moment we have a law - of this kind in operetion.-eelb is quite true that if a tradesman at the present time carries his circular to the Board of Inland Revenue he obtains the postal privilege on the condition of his declaring his circular to be a news paper,, although if the Board of Inland Revenue was after wards to prosecute him for not stamping his entire im pression, he - Would be entitled to go into a court ofjustice and th ere to contend that that was not a newspaper which he himself had declared to be a newspaper in order to ob tein tiie postal privilege for part of his imprOssion. Now, the deolare.tion thus made undoubtedly entails upon him the condition of giving securities; and at present, if a tradesman thinks he can supply his customers Mad the public with any given article upon such terms that it is worth while to advertise his prices from time to time, and if his ambition has so wide a range that he wishes to make them known, not only in the place where he may live, but throughout the country, it is necessary for him to register Lis adveitisemenl; sheet, or whatever it may be, as a news paper, and to give security that he will not print therein 1 any blitsPhemous or seditious libels, UndonlMaly this is the practice under the law as it stands ; but I must con 'fess my belief always has been that this was one of the anomalies and absurd ities of the practice which induced the house during the !last year to do what it is not very apt to do, and what I tlink it most wisely eschews doing— namely, to pass an absi Tact resolution to the effect that the law ought to be alb ered. My right hon. friend pro poses that this conditi on of giving securities shall be retained, but that it shall ; be retained not as a condition of publishing a newspaper, but as a condition of the postal privilege. But, is it possible for this house to embody permanently in one law regulation founded upon such a basis ? It is perfectly in t lligible if a man tells me that securities ought to be giv era by those who publish newspa pers. There may be dill errences of opinion upon that sub ject. Some persons may-,think that these securities are highly important for the' protection of public order or of private character. I con fess that I am not of that opinion. My belief is, that securi ties have this effect—they-provide that if the man who has. given them commits an offence against the law, and the party whom ho has wronged pro coeds agaiut him in a curt of justice, the Man who has committed the wrong shall have the means of paying counsel and attorneys to- defend him. This, I believe, to be the first effect of these securities. That is a question of policy, but what questioit of policy, ,or what intelligible illative or object can be connected with the retention of securities as a condition sef postal transmission? Why, if these securities ado imp of - tent at all they are important as a Ktection, not4o instal men, not to Ministers of the ;0 Members this house, but to the private Vh,ttactraar ofindividualA. Nov, where is it important to -44441,private character? Why, within the particular !spliOril'aviero each Man i.ll known • but if you are to say ;to , a' - olergymaii in Devon u shire, " "iVe will take care you shall not brtlibelled in Northumberland, where the people kiricvntillibeg about yoli, but you may be libelled ad the neWspapeie 3 published in your own town— i'ou to be belled in that part of the country Where it is Mateti,al that , you should have your character defended, but wo - will pi v,vent you from being libelled in a part of the country wil;ih which you have no connexion or concern"—it is plain tha t you place yOur law upon an irra tional basis, and my r 4 ;let hon. friend will run great risk . of not attaining the objcet he has in view—namely, that of effecting a conepletp anCi. final settlement of this long-vexed question. There is anokher point which is not a matter of indifference to me—nal n ely, th© question of copyright, for the protection of literal - property in newspapers. I don't wonder, so far as we he . o a , anything of the plan of my right hon. friend from his ex p lanation to-night, that ho has not included in his biil any 'c lauses upon this subject. I think, indeed, it is a matter wiith reference to which it would be very difficult to devise a plan. At the same time lam under the impression the" - b the proprietors of newspapers, in many cases, entertain I;reat anxiety that the provisions of the law with respect tc , the protection of literary pro perty should undergo spcte ial consideration, and should, if practicable, receive some. extension with a view to the protection of literary prole arty in newspapers. Undoubt edly, so far as the article tl eat is most strictly called "news" is concerned,— for instal:vet), the co'nmunication of facts, which may generally be comprised within a very brief space, and the language, the outward shape and form of which can be varied almost at will —I do not know how you are to introduce any :further provisions than the law at present contains ; but I have understood from some persons who ought to be well informed on the subject that the great anxiety of those who think this question worth consideration in the press as it stands is not so touch directed to the protectim t of their "news," strictly so called, which in point of fa at it would be very difficult to protect, as to the protects a of what may more fairly be called their literary conty asitions —(hear)—for example, the loading articles in their newspapers, and, especi illy as regards . the rotation 'preset; the ,communications of their foreign earrespbthlents. N'• ow I, for one, am very anxious thst;either in We plan of iy right hen:friend or in some other eVective form, this q uestlon should be brought to a settlement. I Wink what say right hon. friend has stated te-night inuststifilce to con: vince the house that the s qnes tion now before them is not whether or not you:will have' a cheap press. You have gt it your cheap press at this mo ment. My right hon. frieisst has told us of one single pub licatieu in London which :to w issu e s some 420,000 co pi es a week, and of another which m-ints at the rats of 210,000 a week. Here, then, are 633,00,000 copies 'of two publica tions alone printed annually in this metropolis. How many more similar publications th,ere may be we have no means of knowing, but I apprehend thatthis statement is far from representing the actual number. You have then your cheap press established in the country. If it does net exist through otit the country it is certainly.esta.blished in the groat centres of the population, and above all in London ; and if we are to speak of inundation, Leaidon is already inundated by these weekly prints. By t - he present frame andstrueture of your laws you prevent the insertion in these publica tions of what may be cop .sidered discussions upon public events, or the statement of public news ; and the question for the house to decide is, not whether it is expedient to have a cheap press orte.probibit a cheap press, but rather, when you have got a cheap press, whether you will give to the promoters of that cheap press the means of providing the people with intelligence of the events in which we are all so deeply interested, with intelligence relative to the working of our institutions and the passing of our laws, or whether you will drive them to what is petty and paltry, to cramming their columns with novels and romances— whether you will preclude them from affording that infor mation which really forms the worthiest material for con sideration and reflection, or whether you will allow of 'a fair competition between public news, as wo understand it, and those inferior materials to which it is the ten dency and effect of the present law to confine the con ductors of these publications. Determined as lamto de all in my power complete-1y to sat free the press—whether it be a cheap or a dear one—for the handling of public events and news of all, kinds, and to apply to this sub ject those principles of free commerce which have been extended with such efficacy to the general mercantile transactions of the country, yet, I fully admit that, so far as literary compositions are concerned, we now find them in our existing press of a high standard and of very great value, and that the principle of pro tection to those compositions is a perfectly fair and just one. lam not prepared to say, and indeed it would require one more skilled in the law, and better acquainted with the whole facts of the case and the feelings and interests of the parties concerned than I am, to point out in what form this could best be done. Ido not ventare to prejudge this question, but I would venture to express a hope that, in endeavouring to carry out the principle of the freedom of the press, my right hon. friend will not be indisposed to take into his favourable consideration any reasonable pro position which may be made to him for the improvement of the law of copyright, in order that we may not run any risk of breaking down that system under which the highest talent in the country is applied largely and advantageously devoted to supplying the public with intelligence and to the discusliou of that intelligence. I must confess that I should regard the destruction of that system as a public misfortune—a misfortune which lam the less disposed to incur, because I do net look upon it as a natural or neces sary consequence of the important measure of emancipation which is now contemplated by her Majesty's Government. Of course I do not offer any opposition to these resolutions. When the bill of the right hon. gentleman comes before us 1 we shall have an opportunity of discussing it, and I enter tain a most confident hope that it will receive a candid and favourable reception at the hands of the house. Sir F. BARING—I am not abOut to enter into the discus sion of the motion itself now before the house, but there is one part of the subject which I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer dealt with rather unsatisfactorily, and which the late Chancellor of the Exchequer touched on still more lightly—l mean that part having reference to our financial. operations. (Hear, hear.) The Chancellor of the Exche quer stated with perfect candour that ho apprehended that at least 200,0001. will be the loss on the measure proposed. Now, I do not pretend myself to draw an estimate dif ferent from my right hon. friend, but I would remind him that Mr. Rowland Hill, in that committee from whose labours he has derived the great part of his observations, stated—if my recollection serves me correctly—that the utmost he thought would be obtained by the adoption of a measure similar to that of the right hon. gentlemen would be 130,0001. (Hear.) Mr. R., Hill thought that that would be the maximum, but there has been some increase of in ceine since, and Lapprehend that you may count on the loss of about. a quarter of a million of revenue in adopting the proposed arrangement. (Hear.) The late Chancellor of the Exchequer said that ho thought that by a cheap mode of carrying books you might obtain an additional sum of money ; but I am afraid that our finances are in such a state that you must not neglect any mode of raising money ; and you will have before long to consider not only whether you cannot raise money by a cheap mode of carrying books, but by many other modes also which may be less agreeable to the house and the country. (Hear, hear.) The present Chancellor of the Exchequer, though not responsible for bringing forward. the project at the present moment, yet, following the example of the late Chancellor of the Exche quer,theiasr. proposal Ih a a t v e a very repe autaefidtl yknown—and time. (Gene ralckhes" m of ac l e H perhaps I may sometimes have been guilty myself of making the statement I am about to describe—that when hon. gentlemen on different sides of the house have pro posed arrangements entailing a loss of revenue, the Chan cellor of the Exchequer for the time being has risen and advised them, in reference to motions affecting the re venue, to wait until the financial statement should be made, and then they would know what sum of money there might be to dispose of, then a full and comyrehen sivseview could be taken of the taxation of the country, and then they would know how to apply any sum of pub lic money they might have to spare in the manner the most - advantageous for .the public good. (Hoar.) Certainly, the time to make such proposals is when yea are sure that you have some surplus; but are yox pretty sure at the present moment that you have a surplus? , (Hear.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer has fairly told you, that if you pass this measure he must of necessity propose some other taxation to compensate for the sum it is now proposed should be lost. Well, then, let us know what is the taxa tion which the right hon. gentleman will propose in lieu. (Cheers.) We all knoW, and no one better than the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, that every tax is an evil in itself, and nothing in the world is so easy as to make a case against any, tax you please if yen consider it by itself. But you ought to consider it in reference and in cenapari son with other modes of raising money ; and, though there can be no objection to allow the right hon. gentleman to bring in his bill and lay his plan fairly before the house, yet we ought not to proceed to vote away a quarter of a million of public money until we have before U 8 the whole state of the finances of the country, and are thereby able to take a full and comprehensive view of the subject.. (Hear.) Therefore, I will not now enter further into the-details of the plan which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has explained so clearly and candidly to the house, but if he proposes, after bringing in his bill, to pass it before his financial statement,'l am afraid that he will find me prepared, even if I should find myself in a mino rity of one, to vote for the postponement of the measure. (Hear, hear.) ' - itir.'GIBSON—I think that the right hon. gentleman who has last spoken has not placed this matter on its pro per footing. This is not properly a fiscal question, though it does involve revenue considerations; but, as we are to be told that this country is unable to meddle with a subject which incidentaly involves 200,0001. of public revenue, when it is necessary to do so in order to avoid a vexatious system of persecutions and difficulties of the most serious character to the press of this country ? I quite agree with the right hon. gentleman, that we must be careful in times like these in not abandoning sources of revenue ; but I cannot see that we should take such an alarming view of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's proposition as to reject it on revenue grounds alone. I am sorry that the present Chancellor of the Exchequer has left out Of his plan that portion of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer's scheme which would have compensated for the loss of revenue occasional by the removal of the newspaper stamp, because, while on the one hand, the late Chan- cellor of .tho Exchequer gave up the newspapiar stamp, he on the other, byadmitting t for 41hef-etai time all printed. matter to be carried by tho, Fost-etticce` at the rata of id. for four ounces, o'ened 4 new seurk.:o4 eo revenue which, giving great nl z enietic'e'to would also have compensated, to some extent, the loss in curred by the alteration of the nOwsp9per etamplaws. It is difficult to speculate to what amount this compensation would have molted ; but as the'whole loss of Me 12119 w&S calculated at 200,0001., it is quite certain that a large por tion of that sum would have been replaced by the postage rate for cheap printed matter, and, perhaps, even a larger sum might have been obtained than the 200,0001. about to be lost. Whether that would be so or not is, of course, a matter of opinion ; but I hope the present Chancellor of the Exchequer will consider the peormition of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, and add to his plan tho pro posal of a cheap rate of postage for all printed matter. It is a monstrous thing that the Times, for instance, weigh ing six ounces, or whatever else, is to be permitted for ld. to be transmitted and retransmitted through the post for the term of our natural lives, and yet I may not send once through the post-office a pamphlet for ld., though per fectly willing to pay that sum for a single transmission. So far from any undue advantage being taken of the pro posed change of the law by the transmission of improper publications through the post, he would venture to say that for one bad publication gent by post there would be 100 good publications circulated by it. There would be religious tracts without number from philanthropic societies which at present had no moans of distributing their Productions tbioughout tho country. With regard to the securities' afforded by the present system, the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not correctly stated the law upon that subject. The liability to give securities did not apply to newspapers alone. Every person who pub- lished a pamphlet which commented on matters of Church ' and State and was sold at a less price than 6d., and con tained letterpress matter of loss than 1,114 square inches, was bound to find securities, and also to declare that he was worth 4001. after all his debts wore paid. At the present moment no man in this country, according to law, was at liberty to express an opinion upon paper, and publish the same at a low price and in a small size, unless ho was worth 4001. after all his debts were paid. These were the previ sions of the present law, but they were not enforced, ex cept against newspapers only. But if the law wore, not en forced; could there be a better reason advanced for repealing it ? Did he understand the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he intended to repeal only a portion of the law respect ing securities—that ho was going to retain them as against newspapers, and to abandon them as against other publi cations ? If so, ho considered it would be very difficult for the right hon. gentleman to show why that distinction should be drawn. With regard to registration, which the right hon. gentleman the member for the University of Oxford proposed to abolish, he would remark that an effec tual registration would still exist, because the act of Geo. 111., which required that every printer should put his name and place of abode to every printed paper, would re main in force. Every printer was also required to keep a register of his employers, and was bound to produce it on an order being issued by a justice of the peace for that pur pose. So that, in point of fact, there would still be a fall registration of any priitted paper, and means of tracing the persons who were responsible for its publication, even if the registration referred to by the bill of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) were abolished, as that hon. gentleman proposed. He for one shouldbe extremely glad, to give his support to the resolutimis proposed by the Chan cellor of the Exchequer • at the same he should endeavo ur to add to those parts of the bill which he thought to be defi cient, for he could not say that he considered the measure as a whole to be so good as the one proposed by the right hon. gentleman the member for the University of Oxford. Mr. JOHN M`GREGOR would not now express an opinion on the comparative merits of the measure intro duced by the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) and the resolutions now proposed by the Chancellor of the Ex chequer. He believed that, by imposing a fixed charge on 'all printed paper transmitted through the post, the revenue would not gain back altogether so much as it would lose by the repeal of the present postal duty fcr such publi cations. However, the whole question was one qn which the opinion of the country was greatly divided, an to whe ther the inconveniences of any legislation whatever might not exceed the advantages that could accrue ft - mai - it. The great majority of the press were opposed to loth the proposed measures, while he believed the people of the country generally would prefer. the bill of the right hon. gentleman the member for the, University of Oxford to that now submitted to the , House by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. There was great truth in what was sa id by the right hon. gentleman the member for Portsmouth (Sir F. Baring), that the house should take into considera tion what were the wants of the country, before they con sented to throw away any considerable amount of revenue. He looked with great concern at the present state of the revenue • and it should have been one of th e fi rs t d u ti es of the dovernment to have submitted their budget to the house, in order that it might be known what were the means which the Government possessed to meet the largely increased increased expenditure winch the exigencies of the war had imposed on the country. It was true that in consequence of the changes in the Government it had not been possible hitherto to bring forward any financial state ment, but he did trust that in a very short period the budget of the Government would be laid before the house and the country for duo consideration. Mr. WARNER thought that no time should be lost in altering the existing mischievous state of the law, and for providing increased facilities for the circulation of printed matter. Mr. BENTINCK stated that he could trace a verystrong resemblance between the resolutions now proposed and those which were originally introduced by the right hon. gentleman the late Chancellor of the Exchequer. With regard to the measure before the house, perhaps it was premature to offer an opinion, but there was one point touched upon by the right hon, gentleman the member for Manchester which he was anxious to refer to. The right hon. gentleman seemed to think that the loss to the revenue which the measure would create would be made up ,by the ne w description of publications, to be published in consequence of the fresh arrangement ; but these new pub lications would be chiefly confined to different localities, and would not require the assistance of the Post-office. He could not help feeling that the chant now proposed would lower the character of the press, unless some precautions were taken against intemperate or licentious publications, issued to serve the purposes of party, or to further the ends cf private malice. KIRK- had received communications from the edi tors and proprietors of newspapers of all shades of politics, on the subject of the proposed change in the law, which, he could assure the Government, they desired should re main unaltered. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER assured the right hon. baronet the member for Portsmouth, that he had fully considered the financial consequences involved in this question; and he had no doubt his predecessor had done the same; but this was not purely a fiscal measure. It arose out of the existing state of the law respecting the newspaper stamp duty. In consequence of the indulgence extended to a certain class of newspapers, the greatest difficulty existed in the administration of the law, and the Board of Inland Revenue were so perplexed by the different publications set up in defiance of the law owing to its anomalous state, that there had been no end to litigation, correspondence, and oven debates in Parliament about it. To give the com mittee an example of this perplexing difficulty, he would refer to the case of a newspaper called the Commercial Journal and Family Herald, a publication of a lite rary character, recently established .in Dublin, but it did not wholly exclude matters of intelligence. A pro secution •was instituted against it in the Court of Ex chequer in Ireland, but the jury returned a verdict against the Crown, and although the Irish Attorney-General was clearly of opinion that the case came within the meaning of the Act of Parliament, he yet would not advise a second prosecution on account of the difficulty of obtaining a ver dict iu such cases. In like manner, the learned Attorney- General for England would on a future occasion, be pre pared to show the difficulties that surrounded the execu tion of the existing law, and if the house then determined upon continuing the stamp duty, he hoped it would at the same time be prepared to pass a declaratory act, in order that the Government might vindicate the majesty of the law in the case of every publication that came within the legal definition of a newspaper. This, then, was not a simple question of whether they should retain Or give up some 200,0001. a year, but whether the Government should be empowered to enter into a crusade against a large body of newspaper proprietor s ; and since the only feeling which influenced the Government in bringirg this measure for ward was to avoid the latter alteruafive, it was for the house to decide whether they were right or wrong. Mr. GLADSTONE said that, as the chief part of the finaucial responsibility of this measure rested upon him self, he wished to say a few words in reply to what had fallen from the right honourable baronet the member for Portsmouth. It was pointed out to him while in office that the present law was not only theoretically absurd, but its administration was so surrounded with practical diffi culties that the Board of Inla n d Revenue was set at abso lute defiance. Now he could not allow the law to remain in that discreditable state without snaking an effort to re medy the evil. Neither the present nor the late Govern ment were the only parties responsible for the introduc tion of this measure, because the house itself was partly responsible for it. Last year the house, not at the sug gestion of the Government, but rather aeainst its wish and inclination, and at a time when there was a full know ledge on both sides of the house of the warand its demands, passed a resolution to the effect that the law relating to newspapers was imperfectly defined and partially enforced. Therefore it became the duty of the Government to con sider what alteration should be made in the law, and he wished now to ask the right hon. baronet the member for Portsmouth, whether he was able to suggest or recommend any mode of altering the law, differin g in principle from that at present under discussion, or the one he had the honour to propose a few weeks ago. If an objection was to be taken to the measure upon fiscal and not political grounds, he hoped those who urged it would not shrink from declaring their opinion as to any other course which Government ought to have pursued in order to give effect to the resolution which the house came to last year. Mr. LAING would most cordially assent to the repeal of this tax if we were no/ atvear, and there was a sarplusin the Exchequer, but looking at the existing state of public affairs, it was of the highest importance that the house should not hastily surrender any source of taxation. With regard, therefore, to the resolution that was passed last year, he was perfectly willing to bear his fair share of the respon sibility that attached to it, or that might attach to its sus pension, though he must. remind the right hon. gentleman the member for the University of Oxford, that the respon sibility of passing that resolution did not entirely rest with the house, because it had been stated that the amount of taxation which had been proposed would be amply suffi cient to meet all demands upon the country. Mr. BRIGHT thought the hon. gentleman who had just sat down was contending with a difficulty that really did not exist. The resolution which the house passed last ses sion was passed subsequently to the commencement of the war ; but, setting that consideration aside, he could not understand why there should be so much hesitation about this trifling 200,0001., at a time when the house seemed indisposed to fix any limit to the taxation of the country, and eagerly passed votes calculated in millions. But the fact was, this was not a question of 200,0001., for it was impossible to say what the loss to the raven° would be. So long gis the paper duty 'remained it might be made up in that way, but at all events, if the new postal arrangement with regard to books were adopted, there probably would be uo deficiency at all. But this was not a question of 200,0001., it was a far higher question—it was the question of whether the resolution passed last sessi on s h ould be ad hered to or not. There wasyets second question, and that was, whether the law shouldbe allowed to remain in each a state as to be easilyset at defiance. Boththe present and the late Chan cellor of the Exchequer, who must have deeply considered the question, had come to the conclusion that it was totally impossible to carry out the laW, and therefore the best course to pursue was to set the press free. With regard to the question of piracy, he had no objection to any legislation upon that subject, provided it could be framed in an equit able manner; he believed, however, that it was unneces sary, and would be of no use. As for the bill itself, he hoped it would be brought in without delay, to see if the house would pass it, because there were hundreds of per sons who were waiting its issue, and whose operations must be suspended in tho meantime. Something had been said about the press being op posed to the repeal o f th e newspa per stamp; but he could not discover where the opposition came from. Certainly a large proportion of tho provincial press, including the Leeds Me rcur y and the .111anchester Guardian, were favourable to it , while , if he mistook not, the Times last year wrote directly dn favour of its repeal. So far, then, from such a measure injuring the press or de s moralising the people, hen, merabonf might set their minds at rest upon that sdore. For his own part, ,he looked upon this as an exceedingly large and imports' 3t measure con fined in a small bill; alid Le was satisfied that the repeal of the newspaper stamp:would in four or five years have produced more effect upon the' moral and . intellectual cha racter of the people than all the public s . jms which had of late years been voted for educational pu :poses Mr. PACKE said the measure would c perate as a tax on readers in small towns and villages, and t his was the ground on which he believed the local press ' ead a great objec tion to it. He should not oppose the resolutions as they , stood, but reserve himself for the ni easure when it came *before the house. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that amongst the evil con sequences of the war would be the necessity of increased taxation. It was clear that if they took 200,0001. off news papers, that amount must be put on. scmething else, and it would be wall to know what that something should be before this was done. If the law could not be executed, and the law officers of the Crown were placed in a false position, this was a good reason for facing tho difficulty and correcting it in a proper way ; but he wanted to know why 500,0001. could not be raised from publications ap pearing at intervals of a month ? He held that this would be the sensible and wino course in the present difficulties of the country. - - Mr. J. G. PHILLIMOVE supported the measure as called for by a due regard to the educational wants of the people, and by justice to all pasties. - After a few words in explanation from Mr. BENTINCH, The resolution was agreed to, as was also the third. Mr. GIBSON inquired when they would have the bill before them. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the resolutions would be reported to-morrow (this day), and the bill would be introduced on Thursday. SUPPL Y.—TEIE UNFUNDED DEBT. The order of the day having been moved forgoing into committee of supply, Sir H. WILLOUGHBY called the attention of the house to the state and amount of the unfunded debt for the year 1855-6, which stood at a much higher figure than he thought this house was aware of-17,183,000/. He most strongly protested against the conversion of Exchequer-bills into funded debt, as had been done in the months of Juno and October last. In consequence of the resolution moved by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer on the 6th of March, 1854, a sum of 1,750,000/. Exchequer-bills had been unduly converted into funded debt, a course which he regarded as entirely without precedent. He hoped they would receive a clear explanation of the transactions from some person con nected with the Government. Mr. J. L. RICARDO said be believed that there was some discrepancy between the principle and practice of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Gladstone). The amount authorised to be raised in 1855 was 17,740,000/., and in 1854 it was 16,240,000/. This latter sum was subject to a deduction of 591,1001. on account of Exchequer-bonds; and, therefore, the amount which it was expected would be renewed this year was 15,433,0001. But there was an addition of 1,750,0001., which, they were told by the right hon, gentleman, had been raised by special bills for the purpose of meeting the expenses which would be incurred before 'the increased taxation im posed by the budget of 1854 would come into operation, and that these bills would be subsequently paid off. The right hon. gentleman stated this on the 6th of March, and he re peated his statement on the 23d of May. He (Mr. J. L. Ri cardo) could only say that the return which' has been pre sented on this subject was calculated to mislead the house. From the statements which had been made, no person could infer that it had been the intention of the right boa, gentle man to have added to the permanent unfunded debt of the country. He did not think that that was the mament for discussing the abstract question whether it was advisable to carry on the war by means of taxation or of 'a loan ? He was certainly not one of those who objected to taxation because it would render the war unpopular. He wanted to render the war:unpopular. lie should be very glad if it were made so. But, at the same time, he believed that the attempt which was made last year (a vary praiseworthy attempt, he believed) to carry on the war by taxation was an utter, is -retrievable, and unmixed failure. (Hear, hear.) And that h e b e li eve d was plain from the operations oilast year. As that was the case, would it not be better for the Government to admit, in a manly and straightforward manner, that it was a failure ? He be lieved that the result of the financial operations of last year was the addition to the permanent debt of the country of 1,750,0001. He believed that the right hon. gentleman could clearly explain how the failure of his plan had taken place, and that the right hon. gentleman would be the last man to resort to any subterfuge to conceal anything of that sort. He (Mr. Ricardo) recollected the open and manly way in which the right hon. gentleman avowed the abortion, as ho was pleased to call it, of the conversion of the South Sea Annuities. He thought that the. hon. baronet was en titled to the thanks of the house for having called attention to the subject. Mr. WILSON utterly denied that the financial plan, pro pounded by the right hon. g en tl eman the member for ford last year, had irretrievably added 1,750,0001. to the funded debt ; and could prove that, on the contrary, the whole of the expenditure of the country, to the present moment, had been paid out of the taxation of the country. At the com mencement of the year 1853, when Lord Aberdeen's Govern ment went into office, the amount of Exchequer-bills was 17,742,000/., and at the commencement of the present year it was 17,183,0001., being a reduction of 559,0001. But it might be said that, in the meantime, some Exchequer-bills had been converted into funded debt. Well, the funded debt of the country, when Lord Aberdeen's Government came into office, was 761,622,0001., whilst it was this year only 751,839,0001.; showing, therefore a reduction in the na tional debt of 9,783,0001., an d, making a reduction in respect of the Exchequer-bonds issued last year, the national debt was 9,200,00:11. less than it was at the commencement of 1853. When his right hon, friend the late Chancellor of the Exche- quer presented- his first budget on the 6th of March last year war was not declared, and he did not, therefore, pre sent a war budget; but as there was a strong probability that war would be declared, his right hon. friend stated that he might be obliged to present another budget before the end of the session. War was declared, and, on the Sth of May, his right hon. friend showed that the expenditure of the country would exceed its income by 6,850,0001., and ho proposed to meet that deficiency by the issue of Exchequer bonds and Exchequer-billi, the repayment of which was to be secured out of the growing taxation of the country. But a part of that taxation could not be received until the pre sent year. The creation of those Exchequer-bills and bonds wore no addition to the funded debt of the country. Some of them were made payable in two, others in four, and the remainder in six years. It could not be said, therefore, that the amounts secured by them had been added to the perma nent debt of the country. The house had already passed votes amounting to 3,400,0001. in aid of the excess of the ex penditure over the income of the year. The additional sup plies had been granted without an exception in ready money, a thing not usual in any former war. Every demand upon the Government had been paid from day to day as it became due. Not a single payment had been delayed one day longer than it would have been in time of peace. There was nothing behind which could ever come against them as a future charge, a great advantage over all former periods of war. The Government had taken care that, when there was an extra ordinary expenditure for the purposes of the war, it should be regulated in such a manner as not to afford the basis for a permanent expenditure. If the expenditure was large it could not be difficult to account for it. The supply service itself up to the 17th of this month amounted to 9,575,000/. Bat there were resources to meet that expenditure. On the sth of April there would be duo in uncollected taxes—not of the ordinary taxes, but of the additional ones raised for the pur pose of the war—no less a sum than 5,020,0001. The income tax alone amounted to 3,320,0001., and the malt tax to 1,800,0001. No doubt they had had aid from Evchequer-bills and Exchequer-bonds to the amount of 7,125,0001., but then there were due, as he had already explained, 5,020,000/. ster ling, showing a deficiency of not mere than 2,105,000/., or thereabouts, whereas, on the sth of April, 1854, there was a deficiency of upwards of five millions. The hon. member for Evesbam (Sir H. Willoughby) had made a grievous complaint because of the manner in which Government proposed to deal with the savings -banks moneys, but if the Government were not to be allowed to use those moneys for the general advantage of the State, they ought at once to give up the custody of them. Government undertook a great re sponsibility, and incurred much expense in regard to those moneys, and if they were not to exercise a wide discretion as to the mode in which they should conduct those funds, the sooner they gave up the management of them the better. The loss in annual interest during the last ten years, as re presenting the difference between the interest paid by the community on the savings banks' moneys, and the interest which they had to pay to those who lodged those moneys, was not less then 431,6601. ; and if to this calculation were added the friendly societies also, the amount would be 660,0001.' Government bought the savings bank money at 97:3 and sold out at 87i during the last 10 years. He re peated, that if no use were to be made of funds which were such a source of expense and responsibility, the sooner they got rid of the whole system the better. . _ _ Mr. GLADSTONE explained that when ho asked autho rity last year for issuing those Exchequer-bills, he stated that they should be redeemed out of the first moiety of the income tax, for which he had also applied ; but he also stated, most Particularly, that this undertaking was only to embrace as much of tho year as terminated on the 6th of March. On the Bth of May he made the Budget statement for the whole year, and explained that, as the whole war expenses would have to be met, and not the mere cost of transport of an ex pedition to the East, he should want both the double income tax and the Exchequer-bills. (Hear, hear.) The hon. ba ronet said that he ought in May last to have stated that it was his intention this year to renew the Exchequer-bills, but he would have been guilty of the grossest folly if he had done any such thing. It was perfectly impossible for him at that time to come to any determination on the subject. The honourable baronet spoke of unforeseen expenditure as foreseen and determined upon, aid said it should have been provided for ; he also treated that as certain which was uncertain, and assumed that would take place which only might take place. The honourable member for Stoke (Mr. Ricardo) had spoken of his financial plans as an utter, irretrievable, and unmixed failure ; but he had advanced no single reason or fact in proof of such an asser tion. He was perfectly aware that all attempts to forecast the expenditure of a war were necessarily in a great degree fatal, but he never pretended to lay before the house any es timate of the war - expenditure of the same reliable nature as the estimates which were presented during peace. After having submitted the estimates of the different departments he asked the house for a vote of credit, and the house gave him a large additional amount in case those estimates should be exceeded. Though the war had been carried on with the greatest activity, and though there had been the extra cost of a winter campaign, yet the provision made by the forethought of the house had been nearly equal to the amount of expen diture. With respect to the question of the public debt, nothing could be more easy than to give the house a statement of that debt at the time ho accepted and the time he quitted office. He found that in January . , 1855, the public debt was about '2,000,0001. less than in January, 1853, when he ac cepted office ; but then, in the course of 1854, there was an excess of 0,000,0001. of expenditure connected with the imme diate purposes of the war, a very insignificant portion of which was defrayed out of the proceeds of the new taxes. The hon. member for Stoke, in describing the effort of last year to make provision for the war expenditure out of the taxes of the year as an utter, irretrievable, and unmixed fail ure, impugned the discretion not merely of a proposal pro ceeding from au individual—not merely of the resolution of a Government—but the discretion of a formal decision of the house, challenged by a vote upon a division given after much consideration, and expressing, therefore, the deliberate view of Parliament, that the expenditure of the year should be liqui dated out of the taxation of the country. If the expenses of the war had been confined to the estimates presented last year, they would have had 4,000,0001. of debt, contracted by anti cipation, and 5,000,0001. of revenue to come in to liquidate it, so that there would have been an actual surplus of 1,000,0001. over and above the whole expenditure of the war. But the expenditure had gone beyond these bounds. If, instead of paying the expenses of the year by means of taxes, they had taken a loan to the same amount, he apprehended they would have been equally open to the risk of the expenditure going beyond the proper bounds. His own impression was, that money raised by taxes went as far as money raised by loans, and even went a little further, because the house was disposed to keep a sharper look out after the expenditure of public money raised by taxes than it did of money raised by to entrap the house in loan to s tle ( o ll d e mi a;, 4 ll 9n ear a .) 4ll7 ll; ri l ll a c a i d piQ no w w bi is ci l 34 l - consideration of th , exigencies with the most perfect and entire freedom ; but, as a matter of retrospect, he thought the house could not look back upon the operations in which it had been engaged—and which, in his opinion, were neither a failure nor an abortion—without considerable satisfaction at the course it had very wisely thought proper to pursue. (Hear, hear.) Mr. DISRAELI thought that nothing was more imp or t an t at that period of the year than that the house should be favoured with the financial statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and, under present circumstances, he recognised additional reasons for their being favoured with such an exy.o sition. He must say he lamented the circumstances which prevented the house and the country enjoying the advantage of the right hon. gentleman's statement. He felt, however, as he was certainly placed in a position of great difficulty and responsibility, that he hada right to throw himself on their consideration; but while according to him the justice he demanded, he (Mr. Disraeli) must express his belief that nothing could be more inconvenient, if they were ,to be de prived of a financial statement by a Minister of the Crown, than these desultory discussions, which were not brought forward under circumstances which justified that consideration which the country required. With regard to the supplies which they might be called upon to grant, the hon. gentleman the Secretary for the Tieasury concealed nothing from their notice ; indeed, the hon. member communicated his know ledge in a tone which, ho confessed, rather astonished him. The hon. Secretary for the Treasury said, " I had so many difficulties to meet." Ego et rex metes was the burden of his speech. (Laughter.) Ile did not know whether those who sat near him were prepared to submit to the despotism of the Secretary for the Treasury. With his (Mr. Disraeli's) limited experience of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, he was not prepared to say in what part he would take the speech of the hon. gentleman, but he did not think the late Chancel. for of the Exchequer would have been so willing to yield to his surveillance. All the hon. gentleman said might be per fectly true and authentic, but he preferredhaving it from the proper officer at the proper time, when he gave an official ac count of the liabilities and resources of the country, and he 'declined entering into the subject at present. The question brought, very properly, under their consideration was one of a much more limited character, and so far as he had listened to the hon. member for Stoke, it had been submitted to th em with temper, an d, as h e thought, with accuraoy. There could be no doubt that in March last the house was clearly under the impression that the vote then agreed to, of Exche quer-bills, was intended as a temporary provision for the wants of the year, and was quite distinct from the usual votes of Ex chequer-bills which were proposed in committee of supply. The house and the country generally did believe that the tem porary loan of March was to be defrayed out of the ordinary reverme of the year. Iu the present year the usual Exche cider-bill was brought in, and they found an increase in it of 1,750, NW- The SecratarY of the Treasury said it was not an increase of the permanent bill. No doubt, technically, it was not se? . bus it was so compared with th 3 temporary as sistance which the right hon. gentleman the member for the University first submitted. Their condition was this I n March, 1854, a considerable vote, not much less than two millions of Exchequer-bids, was taken, upon the distinct understanding by the House of Commons that it was tem porary vote for the temporary aid of the public service, and that it was to be defrayed out of the accruing revenue of the year. Was it a matter of wonder that the house should ask for explanations in respect of so considerable a sum, or that they ,should draw what appeared to him to be the natural and necessary inference from the cir cumstance under which the fl, ancial system of the late Go vernment was established. It was very unfortunate that, having agreed in March with the house that they should vote a temporary supply of two millions, to be defrayed out of the accruing revenues of the year, the Government should have considered that contract to be permanent, although it was not so understood by hon. members on either side of the house. He did not object to a Minister, in the difficult posi tion in which the late Chancellor of the Exchequer was placed, borrowing 1,750,0001. if he came forward and asked for that amount • for, if he had asked for 17,000,000 t. he could have obtainedit. It was not the amount, therefore, or the extra vagant expenditure, that they complained of, but the manner in which what was called a temporary loan was converted into a permanent debt. Sir F. BARING said they were indebted to a noble lord (Lord Monteagle) for pointing out the way in which this sum of 1,750,0001. had been introduced into the ordinary Exche quer-bills. It was not necessary for him to repeat the state ments made in March, that the Exchequer-bills which were then issued were to be paid off out of the accruing produce of the revenue. The words of the Chancellor of the Exche quer himself were —" These will be raised and paid off out of the current revenue, and you will never hear anything more of these Excheqner-bills." After that statement, he did think that it required explanations before they were con verted into a permanent debt. The right hon. gentleman said that he did give such explanations on the Bth of May. Now, he had read the debate in the other house, he had read through the speeches of the right hon. gentleman, he had read through his speech of the Bth May that very morn ing, and it was not till ho heard the construction which he (Mr. Gladstone) put upon his words, that he was able to see that they were sufficient to convey the meaning that he at tached to them. He did not know that his own colleagues were aware of it—(laughter)—for the defence which they made was not the defence which he himself put forward. At the end of the session the Queen's Speench diainetly stated the same principle—" I fully recognise your wisdom in sacri ficing present convenience, and in providing for the immediate exigencies of the war without an addition being made to the permanent debt of the country." (Hear.) He would go to the speech of the right hon. member himself, in which, in ,speaking of these:Exchequer-bills, he said, " They constitute a debt permanent in itself, but the obligations of which are renewable horn year to year." In point of fact, they had transformed those bills, issued for temporary purposes, into a permanent debt of the country. (Mr. Gladstone—No, no.) He used the right hon. gentleman's own words. (Hear.) The Secretary of the Treasury said that he had also explained it, and having said so, of course he must allow that he bad, but it was rather singular that no hon. member appeared to have heard him, and the ordinary channels for spreading in formation through the country had not noticed any such ex planation. (Laughter.) He thought it was very important that, when any change of this kind took place, such explana tions should be given to the house that there could be no misunderstanding. Mr. GL&DSTONE was sorry that it was necessary that he should have to explain what was said on the Bth of last May. The right hon. gentleman who spoke last said, and said truly, that he (Mr. Gladstone) contended, on the 6th of March, that the Exchequer-bills in question would not be renewed. He complained that he did not, on the Bth of May, state that they would bo renewed. It would have been impossible and absurd to give such an explanation, because he did not then know it. What he said on the Bth of March was, that, ac cording to the plan then proposed, they would not be renewed. What he stated on the Bth of May was, that, after making full provision for the sot vices of the country, it was necessary to have a further command of cash of about 34 millions, and in that further amount he included the 1,750,0001. of Exche quer-bills, The right hon. gentleman, he was sorry to say, said that he did not understand it. (Laughter.) Mr. LAING did not by any means agree in the opinion which the right hon. gentleman the Secretary to the Trea sury seemed to imply that the Government, in respect to savings bank funds, should act as a private banker. The two positions—that of the Government, and that of a private banker—were utterly dissimilar, Take one instance of this. The private banker was perfectly justified in making transac tions in the funds, upon the strength of the private informa tion which reached him, but the Government could not act upon any private information in their possession without seriously compromising its position. (Hoar.) So that, in fact, the Government could not conduct any great operations in the same manner as a private banker could, and, consequently, the whole comparison failed. He wished to seo the savings bank funds put upon a different footing from that in which they at present stood, and he believed he was not wrong in stating that his right lion. friend the late Chancellor of the Exchequer would not be averse to a change. (Hear, hear, from Mr. Gladstone.) The subject then dropped, MEDICAL ARRANGEMENTS FOR THE SICK AND WOUNDED SOLDIERS IN THE EAST. On the question that the house do now go into a comittee of supply, Mr. STAFFORD rose for tio purpose of calling attention to the medical arrangements for' the sick and wounded sol diers in the East, and in so doing reminded the hon. gentle man the Under Secretary at War (Mr. Pa,el) that he succeeded to a department which it was believed lod inflicted more horror and suffering on our poor soldiers than could well be described. The letters from soldiers in ojr service, the information in the public journals, and the evlenco before the committee now sitting, all went in confirmation of the terrible disasters which due want o f care an d management had inflicted on our army. it was expected that a new elm! of diseases would break out, and new horrors might be expecteci, unless the Government made the necessary preparations. He took it for granted that the unspeakable horrors of the hospital at Balaklava had been at least to a great extent remedied, and that it was not what it wa.s when he saw it— a disgrace to any civilised country. He hoped the hon. gentleman the Under Secretary of War would be now able to give satisfactory in- formation as to the treatment of the soldiers, and that proper shelter in the shape of huts had arrived for the sick and wounded in the Crimea ; also that proper arrangements had been made for the transport of the sick and wounded from the camp to the harbour. The question of the transport of the sick was of the greatest importance, for so cruelly had it been conducted that were one able to see through the depths of the Black Sea, he believed the way from Balaklava har bour to the Bosphorus might be traced by the skeletons of those who were thrown overboard the transport vessels. He also hoped to hear front the hon. gentleman that the GoVern ment had made, at length, efficient arrangements with re spect to the medical staff, and that the orderlies in care of the sick were not now perpetually invalids, who brought disease instead of vigour to the bedside of the patient. He also trusted that better means had been provided for the debar kation of the sick at Scutari, which was most unsatisfactory at the time he left. On the 6th of November last ho wrote from Smyrna to the War-office, calling the serious attention of the Government to the circumstance that an hospital should be opened at Smyrna. There were three or four months in the year during which it was said the climate there was not healthy ; but during the greater portion of the year, and especially during the winter season, the climate was warmer and more suitable for the improvement of those suffering under pulmonary complaints than the climate of Constantinople. But having let the cold weather go by, the Government was now about to establish au hospital at Smyrna—that was to say, during the most unhealthy season of the year. (Hear.) He warned the Government, if they would have an hospital at Smyrna, to take care it was not overcrowded, and that its internal economy was properly su perintended. He trusted the Government would spare no expense or labour in sending out to the East a proper supply of wooden huts, which could be used with great advantage in warm weather, and were more easily purified than stone build ings. He hoped the War-office would send outhuts for at least 5,000 men. As to the propriety of imitating the French in bringing home invalids, there could be no doubt but that the change of climate and scenery, and the spirits which the prospect of coming home afforded to the sick soldier, would have an effect on his health that could scarcely be exaggerated. Provided the transport ships were as they ought to be, and the whole care and attention of those who had charge of them were directed to the supervision and care of the sick and wounded, most beneficial consequences would result ; but the whole attention of the authorities who prohoadmotthe the trans ports under their control should be given t eco n m s - - fort of their huma e n cargo. He had hea r d many complaints of the indiftbrenc shown by the War-office to offers of the most noble kind which had been made to them—offers ema nating from the most disinterested patriotism. An tiowthere being a civil service office established at Smyrna, it was of the greatest consequence that" the cases should be discri minated, and that there should be a man at Balaklava to de cide what cases should be sent to Smyrna and what to Scutari.. He thought the officer to _ examine the transports, either at Scutari or Balaklava would be a most important officer, and he trusted that i n his selection the authorities would take care that justice was done to the civil surgeons as well as the mili tary surgeons. He trusted also something would ba done to improve the condition of soldiers in casemated barracks. Mr. PEEL could assure the hon. gentleman it was quite un necessary for him to declaim being actuated by any spirit of hostility, for he had established a good claim to have any of his remarks on this subject received with attention. lie (Mr. Peel) entirely concurred in the sentiment which the hon. mem ber paid had been expressed by Lord Panniuro in another "ht + that the Government stood in need, of the assistance of every person in the country to procure assistants for our military hospitals. He fully agreed that we should exclude no means which the state of medical science in this country allowed, in order to enable the soldier to get well, and rejoin the mills of his regiment as speedily as possible. He was not sorry that some delay had taken place in the hon. gentleman putting these qtr_stiOna, because, though he was prepared to answer them, so far as he had information when he first put them, still, since, the Go-' vcrnment were in possession of those reports from the com missioners sent oat by the Dnke of Newcastle and au abstraet, of the report from Smyrna, which enabled him to speak with: more confidence on the subject. The hon. member began by-, asking a question as to the hospital at Balaklava ; butbeiere he (Mr. Peel) touched upon that subject, he would say a wdrd as to the regimental hospitals in the camp before Sebastop4. Even now the number of sick and wounded there was very great, and tho Ugh the commissioners who had reported were the Crimea in the first three weeks of January —a period in which the cases were of a most malignant character, and he believed much suffering had been endured there. The great defect had been, not any deficiency in the number of medical men—for he believed no such deficiency existed—but the great difficulty, he believed, had been in providing housing for the sick soldiers. But now he believed wooden hospitals had been provided for every regiment under Lord Raglan. Passing to the general hospital at Balaklava, it had been no doubt in a state of groat confusion. He believed the chief cause of the disorder which prevailed there, as well as a t th e other hospitals, was overcrowding, and that arose, not only from the number of the sick, but from its having been made a sort of depot for the intermediate reception of those sick soldiers who were sent from the camp, for whom no imme diate preparation had been made in the way of transport. He had received a letter from Dr. Hall, who stated that a new hospital .was being erected near the Castle of Bala klava, in which ho found eight huts nearly completed, and in a few days he should be able to send 200 men up there. The hospital would comprise from 20 to 24 huts, and each would hol about 20 patients. The next point to which he should refer was the transport service, to bring down the sick from Balaklava to Scutari. It was quite true, as the hon. member had stated there had been, in many instances, very great delay between the date of the first embarkation of the sick and the date of the transport leaving the harbour at Balaklava. It was also true that the orderlies were often very unfit for their duty, and insufficient in numbers. However, five vessels had been fitted up as hospital ships, and orderlies would remain on board, who would be qualified, and the run would be kept up between Balaklava and Scutari exclusively for the sick. He believed all these delays arose from the want of small boats for the purpose of plying between the shore and the vessels. The ground for complaints, however, would be re moved, as measures had been taken by the Government. The hon. member was perhaps aware of the different buildings de. voted to the sick and wounded. There was the large hospital at Constantinople—a building called the Sultan's Palace ; the hospital at Scutari; and two large vesselslying in the Straits, and used for convalescents. The gentleman employed by the Government had gone over all these and inspected them mi nutely, and no doubt a great improvement would take place ; and the same gentleman had also made alterations with aview of placing the purveyor's establishment on a better footing. Means had been found to provide better accommodation for the sick and wounded, for, as the warm w ea th er came on, the building mu s t not be overcrowded. The Government had employed Mr. Brunel to prepare huts to be sent out, and in a few days some would be ready. The whole would be sufficient for 4,000 patients. It was intended •to put these wooden huts in the neighbou r h oo d of Scutari, but wheth er on the Scutari or Asiatic side, or on the European side, was not decided. Mention had been made of the hospital at Abydos, in which there were only 270 sick at present, and of whom a favourable report had been made. No report had been made of the position of the hospital, and there fore he could Lot say whether it would not be enlarged as suggested. As to the hospital at Smyrna, his impression was that the Government had selected a place in which no unhealthiness attached, and no fevers prevailed. He be lieved the impression entertained by honourable members was erroneous and unfounded. The hon. member then read from several letters to show that the hospital was in a good position. Mr. Moorhead, staff-surgeon, was sent there to inspect and report upon the place, and his report was cer tainly not unfavourable. The convalescents from wounds recovered very rapidly, and ;the situation of the hospital was very healthy. Dr. M'Leod, so late as the 3d of ,this month, had also written favourably ,•- and it had been stated that the building was one of the -most suitable for an hospital which was to be found in the country. The number of sick in the hospital was about 750, which was more than the building could accommodate, and it was therefore proposed to obtain permission from the Turkish Government for the loan of a lazaretto, in which the sick could be placed. In the organi sation of this hospital the greatest credit was due to Colonel Powell, who had been sent there by. Lord Raglan. He en tirely agreed with the hon, member that it was of the greatest importance that the soldiers who could not be restored at Scutari, should be removed, and therefore the Government had arranged for the fitting up of two steam-vessels which would, whoa completed, and well provided with surgeons and orderlies, be sent out to bring home 4,000 sick and wounded men from Scutari. With regard to the army of Omer Puha. at Eupatoria, the Government had sent out 20 medical men, under the charge of Mr. Buller. He trusted he had answered the different questions which had been put to him. The Government were very desirous to give the fullest information upon every subject connected with the hospitals, and there would be no unwillingness on the part of the Government to answer the questions of any hon. member. He considered there were no persons who were more entitled to receive their sympathy, or the consideration of the Government, than those soldiers whose bodies had been mutilated and whose constitutions had been impaired in the services which they had rendered to their country. Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, in addition to the points mentioned by my hon. friend, I wish to make a statement regarding some other points. Of course, it is incumbent on the Government to take effectual measures for the recovery and care and treatment of those brave and gallant men -(hear)—who leave either suffered in conflict with the ene my, or whose constitutions have been impaired by the ex posures incident to their service ; and I can assure you that my noble friend at the head of the War Department feels it one of the most incumbent duties which he has to perform. Besides those measures to which my hon. friend has referred, as has been already stated, I may say again, that not long ago three distinguished civilians, men who had made it their study to investigate all the circumstances connected with sanitary arrangements, have been sent out to the Levant—l mean Dr. Sutherland, Dr. Gavin, who was employed on a similar service in the West Indies, and Mr. Rawlinson, civil engineer, all gentlemen of the highest attainments with re gard to the matter to which their attention has been directed. Their specific object is one of those matters to which I have adverted, namely, the arrangements with regard to hospitals, barracks, and transports, on which depends the question of sickness or health. The purpose for which they went out was to examine the hospitals in Scutari, Constantinople, and Balaklava, and to suggest all measures which might be essen tial for placing these buildings in such a condition as to be as healthy as consistent with the purposes to which they were devoted. I wrote myself to Lord de Redcliffe, Lord Wm. Paulet, and Lord Raglan, recommending these gentlemen to their particular attention, and suggesting that, whatever improvements these gentlemen might point out as necessary for the sick soldiers, should be carried into effect immediately, without reference to professional jealousy—(hear) —or other obstacles ; that whatever they recommended should be forth with done -whether it depended on communication with the Turkish Government, or upon medical officers in the service, that no impedimenta should be placed iri the way of such arrangements as these men should. point out as necessary. I cannot but hope that when these very distinguished men have arrived at their station, and have pointed out the improvements which they think nem• sary, that groat'and rapid ameliorations will take place. Colonel KNOX said that great injustice was done to o.:icere by the home medical beard, who judged of the seriousness of the wound by the slowness of the recovery, so that men, to his knowledge, who had been seriously wounded, but 'hap pened to have good constitutions, were rated very low, whereas others wounded but slightly, and recovering slowly in consequence of weak constitutions, received- high sums. He hoped that would be remedied by the decision of tho board on the scene of action being taken as final. He hoped also that compensation would be extended to the non-com missioned officers and men as well. Capt. DUNCOMBE advised the construction of berths in the floating hospital fore and aft, and not as they were at present, to his astonishment, athwart ships. He also said that Smyrna, from his own experience, and that of others, was much more healthy than it was reported id the English press. - Mr. PERCY, who spoke very low, was understood to com plain of the huts boing erected within the hospital walls. Mr. PEEL said the evil had been remedied at Scutari as soon as it was known to Government,7 and that at Smyrna they were erected on a parade ground. Mr, KINNAIRD asked whether it was the intention of Government to increase the number of chaplains in the army? Mi.. PEEL said their number had been increased, and the subject was still under the consideration of the Government. SIIPLY„ Tht house having resolved itself into committee, Mr. WILSON intimated that at that late hone be only pro. posed to proceed with the Post-office votes; The _Customs and Inland Revenue votes, as being likely to lead 'to some discussion, he would postpone. - Colonel DUNNE had some objections to urge in reference to the Irish Post-office, and moved that•the cl?airman do re. port progress. The committee divided. For reporting progress l9 Against Majority against ... . —53 On the vote of 1,638,0001. for the Post-office e.vrvice, Colonel DUNNE, after the decision just come- to, would decline to enter into the subject of the abuses its the Irish Post-offic ' Po s t-office, of which the hon. Under S e c re t ar y o f th e Trea sury must be fully aware, from the correspondence which had been forwarded to him. Mr. WILSON said the Postmaster-General had had his attention directed to this subject, with a view to providing a remedy to those abuses, which he (Mr. Wilson) admitted th e existence of, and measures were now under consideration for that purpose. After a conversation, Lord NAAS complained of the absurd system which still prevailed in Ireland of sending the mails by carts and coaches over lines of country which were now traversed by railways. Mr. F. SCULLY made a similar complaint, and said that great delay was the result. Colonel DUNNE said he hoped that the accounts in Ire land would be kept separate, and that the whole management of the Post-office in Ireland wouldbe reorganised. Mr. KIRK said-that great delay took place in the delivery of mails in Dublin. They were not delivered until the second day after their departure from London. Mr. GROGAN said he.hoped that the Post-office authori ties would con s id er the convenience of the pedple of Ireland. Mr. HASTIE (Glasgow) complained that sufficient facility was not given by the post-office in Ggagow tor the delivery of newspapers in certain cases. Mr, VANCE spoke of the paltry economy which bad been exercised by reducing the salaries o f some of d th w e .it c h _ou t n h t: se postmasters to 41 . or 51. Th e res ult was they reimbursed themselves by taxing the public. ofn ie c v e an s c er e v in au t ts h , e as ex e nm pa e r ly e low salaries lastH fi e ftoweiislh:edatrso would know wtahkeethiclacthee? of Mr. th E C d ° i W nb A u N rgl h i ardoastgr reinviLosionudpornomanisdedDfourhltihne. Mr. KINNAIRD said that in every case the Irish estimates were higher than the Scotch ones. Colonel DUNNE complained of the confusion of the Irish post-office system. Mr. MICHELL called attention to the gradual increase of ma ny of the heads of Post-office expenditure, while the work ing departments—the rural post-office keepers, for example- , were greatly underpaid. Mr. MAGUIRE pointed out various defects in Irish post. office management. After a few words from Mr. FITZGERALD, Mr. WILSON said that a commission consisting of the hon. member for Honiton and two other eminent engineers had been appointed to consider and report upon thescekieyaLce of mails by railway. He hoped that one of the results of their labours would be the determinationlof the question as to what the remunerationof railways ought to be for the conveyance of the mails. If that were so, he trusted the Legislature vrould, prepared to pm . ct req ui r ip g of railway corapanieq I I I I