The Sun. — London, England, 1820-05-31 00:00:00

The ted to Hog, 6Yel V° )rlfl r* 'eicii t,ina re y hrf• rl4 ° .aS ! ode {'e ms :rat , tog les" age pf' 3tid' tett. t ket 317.• osa ra• . ; s or dill than the Bin o f 1815 . Th e o bj ect of that 1 . 5 i1l had beets less to secure a fair price to the far mer, than to render th e country i n d epen d ent o f , r , 41 g0 Stat es b y encourag i ng the growth of corn. hi ": I len. Member their entered into extensive ti,' t"e al details, with, the view of sbewiu g th a t Bill of 1815 gave less protection to farmers, than ,hy of the former Acts on the same subject. ILContended. that the country now felt the effects °l,lie inundation of foreign corn which had taken rb' e e in 1817 Th e state o f agr i culture was such, at the stock most diminish every day. Capital was wasted, and could not he restored, and with 't h e feared was gone, the foundation of the wealth : li d prosperi t y o f t h e country. Agricultural dis i.tss took th e l ea d, an d was t h e cause of all other lostresses. Whenever a g ri cu l ture h a d b een de lo ,r manufactures had suffered, and the ; %rl val of t h e one h a d a l ways followed that :'': the oth er . Thi s h a d b een particularly '"ced by the rise and f a ll of our woollen matter ,det'res• The listress of the people nev er pro t-e:.eed fro m ll the high pri ce o f torte ; On t h e co.. t. "Y, as the belts of corn decreased their distress InflPa 'ert. F. tie cheapness of corn was tela tie ; and it was possible that cheap corn should 1 , - dea r , and d , ar Coro cheap, 10 menufact urers ..... i l l' misery arising from a went of labo ur was in i'''''‘Y greater than a n y th at cou ld he experienced 4. °' l ), a partiil advance on the price of corn. The treat body o; p eo i e l e were the purchasers of corn, „." he th ere f ore conten d ed that the price could trot Il • se very high unless their means increased so 41 '0 enable them to buy at a high price. It was N "e "leted that there were about five millioos Of un s in his cou n try w h o were occupied as la .i.tii, Li ''rers. If the wa g es pod to these we re dimi ,t4e•l hy f our shillings a week, the total snot ,'ulr-ryy t , t r , on t h em would, in the course o f a " a t kr, , amount to no less th a n 52,000 , 0001 . per ti ""). This affecting th e general clictiatt.oonot 1' ti c ountry, would again op erate to the pri:tiee t our trade, a n d di m i n i s h t h e va l ue of al l the vi. "oet. of industry, and th us occas i on muc h more -vr('gs th an could he felt front an advance on the psi' laTia)'• I3A.RI NG et ished to :der a few observ a ti ons :Pe preset , Ito .00, tom doing this he should ; .1( 'ell• litr t o tiiscuss the question • with all that 44r1--s 5 ~t l e rn ee r wo,ich the Hon Member for L h t i.'ty (Mr. 1-1. Sooner) brough t i n t o every de ail,' the Gerolemen opposed to the agi.atio u % l I'S question b a d a rig h t to take credit to theme eh g s poor iu i 1 es ~ , l • not havi ng done any thing t o di etn n iti":•tettle(EW.l Wade in 1815. Th oug h h e opposed It lsl Measure a t th e time, and bad ever s i nce con ittiged to t,isapprov e o f i t , se convi nce d was he of jat e I mpropriety of dm ttd istbing the publi c m i, or 1 , 81, 44 5 t ily d i pall i ng f rom a gr eat system when once sri 'Ned ) 'he t tie h a d h a d n o intention of ba yi ng 11,,,,, Yth the Corn Laws. F r o m t h e part 116 taken by thos e t o wh om h e was opposed on 11,: t tllestion, ir turned out as he had predicted, k r r l'e Act o e 1815 did not affo r d t h e corn t ,;' Sts th a t pw n rectio which th e y h a d expect . o lt :o . deriv e troth it, and in feet only proved tirr i mpossibility of bolstering u p t h e pr i ces o f I„ l . P ''s 4 necessary consump t i on by means o f ll e "46 'iott. So strongly did lie feel this, that if ti, tit "hefi t it possible that a Committee could k,;" come to resolutio ns o f that stilt, h e did not ii„ 11* het I e for one s h ou ld be dispose'd to go 1 0 'lle C , Illmittee now moved for, Tue lion, 4ii..ti 1 1 / 1 ""' for E•,ex, with th a t manly eando,ir tkb." Itehtiged to his character, h a d stated hi s te,'!'" lee he a higher protecting price, but with er&t,l'qing to wh e t extent h e wish e d ogo in thi s kliCrret• He i m p ute d a ll t h e existing rfistress to t oloA 'w pla ce of eon) ; b u t w h at h e (M r ; B ar i ng) th el `` wish to know, would b e t h e s i tuat io n of Ilse'''''er classes, if the plan of the Hon. Mew lei "r Ess ex were carr i ed i nto effect, and the* t h e e ' e of bread advanced 30, 40, or 50 per cent. ? Itt i ,‘"'ent to w hi c h t h e li on. M em b er .(Mr. Wes te4-i; Wool(' proceed, he did no t k now . We al -4%,k Paid for bread doeble the price paid by the lii, o i f 'he world, but that would not•satisfy hint. 11e.. 1 he then have the peopl e of gieland pay ti,:e. litnes th e price i hat was paid by the inha- Noe„? t , 0 1 (slier coontrics I But how, in that case, t o 'I it he pessohle for our manufacturing classes lio,.4`'Y on their labour ? Hot some might bt v ' I. Let its have 'a high price for corn, and 4 lii h tl : ihino the toanefactnring classes, let them Tit," li' themselves as they can." It was, ver . certain that that which enabled this t - i , , ' , ' t , )Nry a high price f or i ts b rea d , was the ‘'se t t "albee of our h av i ng t h ese manufacturing 11 "r,4 8 ) 'Moog us ; and setting aside th e consi liille t ° that h av i ng these interests, it was imps lltte,l/4 () s hake them off —without them the present 4 kni,,', e "uld not be kept op in a country merely s 'ltti ral. It was hence clear, that all attempts 41 bel t 1 to tilt toe two classes most prove useless ; t tedq "ests were ()mind up together, and one tli ' Ilfn 11 'the other was severely ttr e , sd otitis') when qe ,, s , v He then, from a comparison of the oral ' e wn, shewed that no alteration in the //15 5sed s 3 :: 3 , was necessary from the present de !ln) 14, lo rd 0 ! of the agricultural interest. It was corn had been brought e 'II _ l 'i t 1)0 foreign e( Tel 01: c onntry for the last eighteen months, 1) 0 0 sitiur.elore it the protecting price had been p e - „,, l "gs, the corn grower would only have :5i4:11,014-1e lie ,at present was. The pa ice of ''r' G , _ ( n ot be forced tip i n the manner that h t ."efrten connected with the landed in e - se er , , ree ee o roseu to be practicable by the inter :‘e 'i nt Parliament—it must depend tot the re 1011.ereedr`'Iliistarices of the country. The farmer 4 (1 te t e fr ° l ll the distress of the manufacturer, 0 t a r e nisnufact were suffered from the distress of ''S3 ( ilier• But rite Fp ble Member for th st x ne, de . ononsa hi tt be. hip . „ " appear that it was all on one side, 1 4 ' 1 1)1, e1, :e the termer could not consuene the t,, (11 1 s e , . rel ‘ sufl , r.•d ; but he (Mr. Baring) 011 - 411)tai, that because the manufacturer t, i tr ot co. 1 1, 1 I p rovo, osure the . farmer suffereo. It had %4tootose that in one manufdcturing district, 4 ,11 re i" r of beasts slaughtered in one year had I 'I P It lli t "Heed Ir°!1) 5 8,000 to This proved o ti e r t Peopl e 46,000. there (as in - lueland) were too r,ith,c:(l!sichase the higher classes of agricultural ti 4 opi iito 'oe p r esenteprotecting price, he was :. ks ii. 11, Otitthi trot " I ' 1 I:" t it Id seen tee, to )e augnieutet . ery - 4 't i , 'llo r i t , ► I 's Profits qiatieshed, and the pre e4 lett, , ° the part of fie la-tiffed proprietors k et le () _ () ""o but an effort to exempt themselves 41111 Qp lot of every other class in so- clety. They would rind themselves mistaken. If Parliament were to give them a hundred shillings as a protecting price, the landl or d s wou ld not b e able to keep up their rents as they were during the war. The only effect of an effort to accomplish this would be to bring down the rents lower titan they would otherwise fall. Much stress had been laid, and in diacussioos like the present always had been laid, on the great burdens imposed by taxation on the landed interest. It would be found, by referring to the evidence given before the Committee on the Corn Laws, that the burdens imposed by Government on agri culture were of little moment. With the ex ception of the tax on agricultural' horses (which was very small), the burdens which they had to sustain 'were trifling. But when it was asserted that they could nor enter into competi tion with come ries which wet e not so oppressed by taxation, their forgot that in every other coun try in Europe the land. itself was heavily taxed. This must be the case in poor and in agricultural commies, where the whole of the revenue must be derived Irons land. The Petitions which co vered the table he did not think entitled to much attention. They resembled those which had been mesented some years ago on the subject of Uni versal Suffrage, anti they had been got up its the same way. He thought the agricultural classes suffered less th an ot h ers. H e did tot mean to say that they did not suffer considerably, but he conscientiously believed that they had less cause for complaint than most of the other classes of the comnotnity. For the evils of which they com plained they must seek a remedy which could not be afforded to them by legislation and new hews-- they must serk it in a reduction of their rents. The depression he did not think was so great as had beets generally supposed. At least he should be led to tali C.I/Clusiall front -his own small exp.-tie:tee ill that way. He had recently let consaletable farms for the s-tme rents. as for merly, without even a claim bsiag made on the part ef the tanners for a diminution of tent. The table, it was true, was now loaded ‘vith from the Agricultural Interest, bet we al , se t ,.. e were removed, it would inonstitately be tovetrd with Petitions of an opposite coaracter, it there were any probability of the prayer of those now hetore them being attends d to. For these, however, 4ie trusted there would he no occasion, as ire doubted not the manner in which the pre sent Petitions were received would satisfy the Canetry that there existed no serious intention of altering the Corn Laws. With respect to the ave. rages, it in telling them there had been any abuse, that abuse ought certainly to be dotte away. The - parties complaining of this had the remedy in their own hands, and a remonstrance to the Magistrates would ptoteably do away with the necessity of calling for the interference of Parlia ment. He concluded by repeating his declaration that lie had no intention of mooting any question connected with the Corn Laws, and exptess!ng the importance he attached to steady persever ance its si•:y system once adopted. Mr. F. LEvvIS said, the holsters under the pre sent system were so agitated by rumours of the opening and shutting of ports., and by ointments that the averages (which all knew it was no easy task to take properly) were improperly Laken, that he slid net think thereould be tranquillized with out some interference on the part of Parliament, and teeretor e he, for one, was desirous of going into some inquiry On the subject. That the opi nions of the farmers were erroneous he did not think it would be difficult to make clearly appear. He proceeded to remark, that most of the Peti tions now before them, came from the occupiers, and not from the smile's of land ; and then shoved that those classes had distinct interests, and that the benefit now claimed by the occupiers would inet:itably be taken from them by the owners when the present leases expired. The protection now afforded by the importation price being fixed at 80s. he regarded as very inconvenient. He was inclined 1 . 41 think that a duty of even less titan twenty shillings might answer much bet ter. Some inquiry would, in his opinion, be de sirable, as the country was now in a situation wholly different from - that. in which it - stood iu 1815 The expense of cultivatint:,, , , land (includ ing tent) had diminished since that period by not less fists one-third, and therefore the protection whi c h it wa s right to affood then might not he necessary now, and lie could tint -but persuade himself . ohm the time was not tar distant when it would he necessary for them, some degree, to retread their steps, and when it would be thought wise to take this question into consideration with a view of gradually undoing what had been done. It was the general view of the country that the present protection operated as a tax. on a con sumable article. 'Else difference between what was paid for bread, and what would be paid for it if no Corn Bill had passed, operated as a 'tax on the people, but its produce went not to the Government—not to the tenants—but to the land lords of England. This must therefore. b e re .: garde[) as a tax of the worst description imposed to enrich .a particular class of individuals. The share of it which he as a landed proprietor re ceived he would willingly give up, and by so do, ing he was satisfied that he should be a gainer, from the change which would then take place iu the whole face of society. He thought inquiry desirable and necessary, but at the same time did not feel himself hound to vote in favour of the particular inquiry called for by the present motion, Lord MILTON was in hopes that the inquiry proposed would have suggested such remedial measures that he could hate voted for it; but he HOW found the proposition of the Hon. -Gentle man was so confined, and so little adapted to the circumstances of the country, that he could not give it his support. With the views of the Right . Hon. Gentleman .opposite—with every thing that he had expressed on the subject respecting the averages and the mice of corn, - he thought it im possible not to concur, and he had therefore been a little surprised at the end cif his speech to learn i-tbat that Right Hon. Gentleman might, by pos sibility, support the motion.—(" No, no," from , he Ministerial side.)—He had nttderstood that the Right Flout. Gentleman was disposed to con sent to the inquiry, if limited in a particular way. —This•limitation was precisely that to which be (Lord Milton) could not agree. The Noble'Lord opposed the motion On the ground that it woulj only excite . excite . the expectation of every tardier in England, and dash the cup front his lips. The real history of the distress in the country arose out of the unnatural state of thinks for the last twenty-five years. It bad been the peculiar distinction of the late War, that we had not only expended an immense capital which had pro. doced no beneficial effect, because the weight or taxation bad pressed heavily on all classes of the community. If the resources of the country were not increased, the country would not long be able to bear the load of eaxation The Noble Lord was not sang uine enough to beli e v e th e l oa d o f debt c o uld b removed to any great extent, end it would be a delusion to impress on the people that the distresses could be alleviated suddenly. The House ought to turn their minds to inquiry upon a large and mere extended view than that proposed by •the Hon. Member tor Surrey. It would appear that Parliament was blind to the interests of the country, if they limited inquiry to the form proposed. He felt regret . in not being able to vote for a motion on the subje c t, b ecause he believed th at. inquiry upon a large scale might have been attended with a good result. No good could possibly arise from limited and petty in quiry. Mr. CURWEN said, the speech of the Right Hon.. Gentleman on the opposite side of the House made a deep impression on him. 'rite Corn Laws were most essential at the time they were adopted, bitt when . the Right H - on. Member at the head of the Board - of Trade stated that there was nor- rorn to support the country, it was in his opinion one of the most serious assertions ever made in that House. He found a difficulty in giving his vote for any inquiry that would lead to increase the price of grain and de crease the corn of the country. The great dif ficulty under which the country lahnered arose from the unproductive state of labour. The diminution Of income, occasioned by fail log 011 in the price of labour, amounted to six millions annually. Great difficulty had fallen on •he landed interest, _which tequired the attention of the House. The enormous extent of Poor rates, and tire increase of Taxes, occasioned a hea vier pressure than at any period dining the tear. • Mr. Crater considered the landed interest as suf. tenni.: more severely that► the funded interest. He would' have gone into a Committee with two ob jects : First, to relieve the Poor -rates and equalize the Taxes with regard to funded property, The policy of this Country had been mistaken. It went to lay Tax-es on labour,. and when labour exceeded the demand, the tax fell on the land holder. Two millions were paid in Texes out of I ribolll%, Could any thing h , :.‘ inort - :o)stird [ball to tax those who in consequence of such tax were driven to the p,o - i)ii ? _ He was an advocate for a' modified Income Tax. The Taxes ought to fall equi,lly on every part of the community. A'Com mittee might he appointed to inquire into the distresses of the Country. but it should be upon a broad efficient system. Inquiry -ought to be for the benefit of the working classes. If the Taxes on Leather and Salt Were removed, it would ease the farmers of four millions, and enable them to fall grain eight shillings in the quarter. He wished the maximum to be eighty shillings : he could not votelor eke motion. • • Mr. IVCARDO said, he did not rise to support the interest r of the land Dr stoc kh o ld er, b ut the interest of the cmintty at large. •In taking a fair view of the subject, he was bound to object.to the Corn Laws. It they were to oven the ports the price of grain would be the same in England as in other countries, and that would be a remu nerating price —(A cry of " rfo, no.")—The Hon. Member drew the attention or the House t-o the case of a manufacturer of cloth, who was obliged to divide the produce of his labour into two portions. One portion was given to his la booms, who assisted him to manufacture the ar ticle ~the other portion was to pay hint for mak ing it. Corn rose in price, and the men who worked for cloth would starve, if the man',tac turer (lid not give them twenty instead o f fif teen per cent. He asked in that case whether the tising of Corn would not raise the price of Stock ? The Aericithurists might as well say, they ought to grow all the sugar used in Great Britain as the corn. They might as well claim a right to the exclusive cultivation of beet -rout. Such an at. tempt would not be more absurd than that of at tempting to grow all the corn consum ed country. Th e i nterest o f the public was to be considered before that of any particular class. The crrOS- - of 1815 was making the Corn Ltw permanent ; it snouhl have been temporary; This . country wou!,t he the happiest in the world if it got rid of the National Debt and the Corn Laws. —(A laugh.)There was riot the slightest ground for going into the proposed inquiry. It was in tended to do good, but might -do a great deal of mischief. BgNETT said, the Holt; Gentleman's statement that England would be the happiest coun try in the world it k got rid of th e . Nationa! Debt and the Coin Laws, implied, that they could not get. rid of the Corn Laws without the National Debt. He thought that the fact was, if there was no National Debt, they would want no Corn Laws. The Corn Laws had not been attended with the expected effect, and he, for one, was disposed to abandon them. He supported the motion. • Mr. HusussoN said, this question had been so •forcibly considered by his Right Hon. Friend at the bead of the Board of Trade, that he should not have risen to address the House, had not the Noble Lord (Member for Yorkshire) mistaken the argu ment of his Right Hon. Friend. In 1815, when the subject was under discussion, he was one who took part in the debate upon the Bill.—He proceeded to state the reasons which induced hint to support the Corn Bill, and !contended in a very able argument that the measure had been attend ed with beneficial effects. Mr. Cox s (of Norfolk) said, he could have wish ed to , see this Committee formed on a brOad basis, which would connect the agricultural with the commercial interests. There were various causes for the distresses of the agricultural interests ; but he believed that taxes were the principal. The tythes constituted another cause. Mr. ELLIci3 s;rongty opposed the motion, whicli had 101 its object the raising she prices of thd necessaries of life, and therefore be moved !he previous question. Mr. MANFIELD declared that the distresses of the agricultural interests could not Pcpi:d those of the manufacturing interests : and he saw no reason for any proposition that would have the effeet Of raising the price of corn. Mr. BROUGHAM said lie could not, consistent with his duty to the Public and the Agriculturists, avoid offering a few observations on the motion. He deprecated the intention to move the previous question upon a sublet:, of so mtich impottance. ' Rather than censeet to tell the Petitioners the subject had bete) received with indifference, he should vote for the motion, although be considered the terms of it too narrow to answer the intended purpose. . The. Honourable Member at consider able length, supported the Agricultural Interest; He thought the lettuce:news which would be necessary for a man to remove tec hulk of his capiral into foreign countries, noon be strop, enough to induce him also to transport hittiserf with that capital. He did not, Iherefote, gist. way to any of those fears which were emertaincd by many respectable Geotlemert on this bead. Un l'es they were prepared to Show that the causes oberatieg on :,mall capitals to go abroad were sufficient to produce emigration, he shoeld not think-there was any occasion for alarm. Mr. Glees held in his band an ametidment o which was -to the effect that a Select Committee be appointed for the.perpose of ascer; ainioe , the 'mode best titted for ascerieiniog the avera price' of corn. He s'oeold think it his duty to pot this, unless the Hon. Member ( %ie. Ellice) withdrew his motion for the previou s (petition Mr. Eeetce briefly explained, and expressed his readiness ro withdraw his motion. General GAsCOIGNC said, that there was scarcely One Member present who was. nor aeare before lie entered the House Writ ereni , g, that be in tended to move the previous question. So strongly was he opposed to the appoit men: of a Com mittee for the purposes intended by the Honour able Mover, that if such Committee should be appointed, and any measure be carried upon its recommendation, he should feel himself bound to make au attempt to repeal that meestire,or at least to bring the subject again no ,er the consideration of the House. After this expiii,mion. the House would not be surprised .at his objecting to the motion for the previous question being with. drawn. Mr. CORBETT spoke in favour of the original motion. Lord Cies-reel:neon said, in Vol) ie for the pre eiou. quest ion, de begged to be t....irleis!ood as doing so with a view to get rid - of the motion of the ion. Member for Surrey. If after that were disposed of, a Committee Should be proposed toe the purpose of inquiry, to eseeitain whether tue provii.ions of the ACt of 1815 had been defeated by I tie 'mimic'. or in king :tie average, be should out object to it. - Mr. Alderman HEYGATE thought the Core Laws required revision, ,agriculture having been much. tflfected by the Bullion Question, b u t wou ld op pose any ris e i n the a verage price of in:Toiling Corn, or any tax on capital in trade, whir _ was equally depresses with agriculture. Sir THOMAS A.CLAtD spoke at some length in favoUr of going into a Committee to inquire into the distresses complained of in toe petitions on the table ., . • After a few words from Mr. V. FITZGERALD and Mr. Wooanouse, Mr. fitiLma SUMNER replied. - Several Members rose to speak, but gave way to the general impatience of the House, and the Gallery was cleared for a division.—The numbers were— For the previous Question being put lOl Against it ISO Majority in favour of the Original Motion —49. On our re-admission lot') the gaGry we found Lord MILToN on 'Hs legs, lamenting the decision to which the House had come, and ,begging tnemt. to deter the no►ninalion of the Committee on ac count of the early hour (half-past 3). Mr. BARING expressed Ids apprehension that the decision of the House that night would rend t o show the people the perilous state they were in, and proottee the greatest dissatisfaction. The 'House having come to this unexpected, and, in his mind, Ittineotible decision, he thought a fitter than that should be appointed for choosing ' the Menthe's of the CoMmittee upon which so much would depend. lie therefore proposed that the limber consideration gat the subject should be adjourned till this day (Wednesda:). • " Who seconds the motion ?" asked the , SPEAKER. Sir R. WlLsotst approached the table and ex claimed, '' I second it." Fie felt anxious for the traoquillity of the country, and he kuear the sittiatiOn in which it would be placed. If the result of the discussion could have been anti cipated millions of the people, would have stood forward with petitions against the measure. Tire measure was such as could not be carried on in a free country; it could be tolerated only under a military Government. The Gentlemen who supported. it would require to put garrisons in every town in.. order to keep the people at peace, for dis content , wo u ld s p rea d throngh.every class of the country, and to this measure.it would mainly owe its source. ..4.Lord CASTLEREAGH said, th a t th e quest i on which the interests of the country required would demand attentive deliberation, and be implored the House to pause, and not. to proceed in naming the Committee.. He had anticipated a different result, and when several Members, who were in clined to vote against the measure, had asked his opinion respecting the result of the discussion, be had said that he entertained but little difficulty concerning the conclusion, and they departed. .He besought the House to postpone the appoint ment of the Committee until'the evening. , Mr. BaouGuasi asked, what had been said by any Members during the • debase 'which could give cause for the charge of the Honourable Member . for Taunton, that the bread of she poor was to be raised in price ? Why had that Honourable Member, as well as the Gallant Officer, the Mein be; for Southwark, to differ with whom he always regretted, made such declara tions ? On What ground ? Wall every man in England, Scotland', and Ireland to charge upon than Ccintnittee the increase of the price of his