The Sun. — London, England, 1824-05-05 00:00:00

ft/aught it atseless to - make it a matter of discussion in that Bowe. Sir J. NEWPORT and Mr. L. FOSTER. explained. Mr. GOUL - BURN said he happened to be present wheti this Islemorial came before the Board of Education. - A question ;image as to whether they had the power of cancelling the union of the schools, a fter their act had been con fi rmed by the 'Lord Lieutenant. A case was submitted to the Attorney-General, and he decided that they had not the power. - Sir J. NEWPORT asked, when the new Com missioners for iasuiring into the state of Education in Ireland` would be ap pointed ? The least possible delay ought to take plate, and every thing depended upon the respectability of the Com m-Union. Prr. GOULBURN said, that no long time would elapse be fore the Commissioners would be appointed, , and he had no cletubt 'that the appointments would glye general satisfattion. :o.rne delay was „necessarily created, by the communications iit."o must take eace between the two Governments. ' J: NEWP RT.had understood that they were to have allloyal Commission, and that the appointment would hive I:Outmode by the Cabinet and not by the local Government. - Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that _no' delay would take place --teyond that which was necessary to procure such appointments 41r irould ensure the best fulfilment of the duties of the Corn mission. He had no doubt but that the 'appointments would - "he such as to conciliate the feelings of all who were interested iri the very important question.—The petition was ordered to be. printed . Sir J. NEWPORT presentksd a petition from the. Chamber of Commerce of -the City of 'Waterford againt the Bill relating to wheat in bond.--Laid on the table. ; A Message from the Lords announced that their Lordships had agreed to several Bills. BEER DUTIES. Mr. IIUME presented a petition from several .Brewers of Forfar, against the present Regulation of Beer Duties. He trusted the Chancellor of the Exchequer would a lter his plan, which- was difficult and inconvenient, if not impracticable. The duty ought to be laid altogether on the malt.—The petition, was ordered to be printed. Mr. IIU:klE presented a petition from Salford against the Combination Laws; and another, to the same effect, from se. venal Butchers of Newgate Market. Colonel TRENCII presented a petition from the Town Clerk of Cambridge, praying for compensation under the County Courts Bill.--The petition was read, and Colonel TRENCH then moved, that the House would on . Friday next resolve itself into a Committee on the Petition.— Agreed to, after a few words from Lord ALTHoRP. Lord BELGRAVE presented a petition from the Tanners of Chester against the Leather Duty.—Ordered -to lie on the table; as was a petition from Altringham,' presented by the same Noble Lord, against Negro Slivery. Mr. ABERCROAI BY presented a petition from Edinburgh, signed by upwards of 4,000 persons, against the Combination Laws.—Ordered to lie on the table. CORN LAWS. ABERCROMBViiesei;ia ivpetition from Youghall, in Ireland, against a Bill brought in 'by an lion. Gentleman, respecting . the Corti Laws. They complained that the averages -were unfairly taken. Mr. MONCK presented a Petition from Reading against the Hide and Skin Bill, and another from St. George's, in Middlesex, against the Salt Duty.—Ordered to lie on the table. COUNTY COURTS. Lord ALTHORP presented a.Petition from Manchester in favour cf the.County , Courts' Bill ; and in answer to a Petition presented from Lancashire some time since, praying that that county might be exempted from the operations of the Bill.— Ordered : to lie on the table. Di ST IL LE R Y LAWS. ..Lord A. HAMILTON presented ;Peiition from the County •of Lanark, complaining of the effects of the Scotch Distillery Laws. • They particularly complained that -the duties, were heavier in Scotland than they Were in Ireland ; and they ..claimed an equalization of the duties He understood that the Chancellor of the Exchequer on a former occasion had. held Dolt a promise that this equalization would take place; begged to ask the Hight Hon. Gentleman whether he intended to propose any, and what measure on the subject ? The CHANCELLOR of Abe EXCHEQUER admitted he had last Session given reason to believe that he should propose a definitive measure on this subject ; and he regretted that lie should not be able to do so this Qession. He could not deny the truth of the statem en t s i n the ' Petition (as far as he under,. stood their substance from the.observations of the Noble Lprd), reir the injustice of the present law. Belied no hesitation to say, that that law could not be allowed to remain in its present inconsistent state..:-4 ear, .hear ) Ile must observe, however, that the faw was not of his: proposing. It had been several years in its present state,- and in that state he found it.— . tie particularly regretted that lie could not propose any definite rneasKre this Session. He was attentively considering the sub.. jest with the view to a remedy ; but be had no doubt the Noble Lord was not aware of the many difficulties in which the sult. , jest was involved, though they did not appear at first sight . - Admitting most distinctly that the law ought to be, and must be altered, he would only ask of the Petitioners, the .Noble Jord himself, and all'others who took an interest in the subjeet, that they would not force him to aeprernature, and probably,. an ill-digested measure. • 11r. C. II vitt' INSON concurred in the view of the sub ject taken by the Petitioners. He would, however, oppose any violation of the Act of Union with Ireland. There would be swell a violation by any" , partial measure.- The Irish spirits were differint from those of Scotland, which were very dane gerous. The Irish spirits were very good indeed.—(A laugh.) - . Mr. D. BROWNEetipported the opinion of the last speaker. -Mr. HUME spoke in favour of the Petition, though he a& mitted that Ministers had shew.n a disposition to afford all the • -relief which the subject called .for: lie did not, however, see wily they should, be afraid to ptoeeed to their measures in the first instance. . ;*7.1.. MAI:ERIN wished Hon. Gentlemen would propose the hest mode of equalizing the tluty,'Whicli was by abolishing the &vies 'altogether. --:(licar,'"bear !) . . . . Mr. RUNE explained. -1' •' ' - ' . . . The Petition was •ordercd-tos,belrinted, after a few words from Lore, A. HAMILTON, admitting•the.fairnessarideandour of the Chancellor of the Excheqter's gtatement... • - COURT -OF -GHANCERY. lkif,• JOHN WILLIAMS begged to aslc.the Right Hon. itHfretitry opposite, whether•any arrangement had been made to take and lay before the House Minutes of such evidence as might be brought before , the Comulisioners appointed to in - (pure into the practice of the Court of Chancery, in the course of their praceedinwi. . • Mr. Secretary PEEL said, he was not aware of any such arrangement ; though he presumed the evidence would betaken auf laid before Parliament in the usual course. He would, however, make inquiry% on, tire .ittbject ; and would then be prepared to give a positiVe answer to the question of the lion. and Learned Gentlenlsn, INSURRECTION ACT. Mr. GOULPI,7IOI gave -noire that he-should, on ThurA day, move for a Committee to inquire into the state of such of the counties in. Ireland as were under the operation of the Insur rection Act. DI§T it ESS IN i RELAN D. dente taken before a Committee of the House last year on a reference as to the state of Ireland.]—lle should, however, not stop here, for he should prove that where disturbance exist ed employment removed ite-e[The Hon. Member here again referred to the evidence taken before the Counnittee.i—Thi. clearly shbwed that the want of f einployment was the principal, if not the sole cause of the disturhances. At was, therefore, the duty of Government, to come forward and eit deavour to encourage the tritneferbf capital to that country, in order to give emplOyment. He knew that this would be • met by a reference to the doctrine of Adam Smith—that most men understood their own interest. This. was true as a general • rule, though it was open to many exceptions, as had been clearly shewn by Monsieur Say and Monsieur Sismondi. It had also been shewn by the Report of a Committee of that House appointed to consider the state of Ireland, to whidi Report the late Mr. Ricardo was a party, and although that lamented Gentleman was a l m ost invincibl e in his support of the general rule, he had on that occasion admitted that the state of Ireland appeared to prove an exception to it. If he (Capt. ki-) were asked what particular employment ought to be encouraged by the Legislature, he would say the Fisheries and the Cul tivation of Flax. It was a fact, that few of the people engag ed in the Fishery on the Irish Coast were aware of the best means of directing their exertions with effect, a circumstance attribUtable entirely to the want of funds. The Linen Manu factory was carried on principally by flax," home-produced; and yet the cultivation of the flax was neglected. This was to be referred solely to the poverty of the country, which chilled her industry and diminished her skill. Ile should propose, as a remedy, that a sum not exceeding a million should be entrusted to Commissioners to be lent to individuals on. their giving security for The repayment. 'He preferred this course to the engaging in any public works, because it would encourage enterprise and speculation. He .should propose a. check to the money being applied metclnn discharge of in cumbrances on land. The mode of preventing this he should propose to leave in the discretion of the Commissioners. He 'would obserie, however, that one mode of accomplishing the general object would be - by extending the present system of charitable loans, Which had been attended with roust benefit.— (The Hon. Gentleman here ,referred to several instances of the encouragement of the. fishing trade by the benevolent assistance of individuals, who advanced Money on loan to those who were ' interested, in the trade, and who had been honourably and punctually repaid.]—He had now gone through the particulars of the subject he had brought under the notice of the House. lie was satisfied that, if the Government were to set the ex ample, capital would be . transferred to Ireland by individuals to a considerable amount. He referred to the example of Scotland to she* the effect of capital on tlie situation of the peasantry, though he admitted that education and skill might form some part of the cause. lib concluded by moving_ " That the House do resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House to contider:the propriety of presenting an humble Address to his Majest y, praying that he .will be graciously Pleased to give directions for advancing a sum not exceeding one million to be employed in the provinces of Ulster and Connaught, and to appoint Commissioners for the distribution thereof." The CHANCELLOR-of the EXCHEQUER said it must be admitted that the lion. Member had brought - tlie subject forward in the most laudable temper and language. Ile joined the lion. Member in his regret that a country like Ireland, with so- many advantages as to climate, soil, and • people, should,. from un happy circumstances, be prevented attaining that eminent situa tion which those advantages appeared to promise. He con sidered the interests of this country to be so united with those of Ireland, that in his opinion every proposal for assisting her should receive a faveurableattention. That attention, he could assure. the Hon. Member, he had given to his proposal, and the facts and arguments by which he had supported it • but he re gretted.he had conic to the ()Pinion that the proposal (so far as he could. Understand it) was not advisable. Ile was fully aware that Parliament had interfered on former occasions for the as sistance of Ireland by grants_ of considerable sums ; and it was not to be denied that this eleemosynary kind of assistance was sometimes advisable, but it became so only when the neces sity for it was immediate and overruling. The proposal or the Honourable Member, however, did not appear to be of this description; `for be understood it to be intended - only in the way ofloan. Of the policy of this kind of assistance from the public purse he had always his doubts, though lie ad mitted he had sometimes been a party to it; but his doubts were particularly great when the, case was applied to Ire- This, his opinion,- arose not from - any indifference in his mind towards the situation of Ireland, bnt from a desire to'ptevent a delusion, by the creation of a teinporary apparent yrOsperity.- If they were to be too lavish in these grants from the public purse, they would cause the Gentry of Ireland to be perpetually leaning en . the Government to keep their heads above water. This was a most 'erroneous course of policy ; and the adoption of it as a general course would be most mis chievous. Grant after grant would go on ; but at last the sys tem Of granting . must stop ; and the people would be thew found less capable of elertion for themselves than ever. Thus much for the plan itself of the Hon. Member. . Rut even if the plan were free from objection, he thought its practicability was very questionable. He did not exactly understand ix what !mode the lion. Gentleman proposed to give the assistance to 'the Fisheries. To set them-up, to set them going in particu lar districts, he did not - see any objection ; hitt this must be done on a very small scale indeed. The Lord Lieutenant, by the present law, had the power to issue from the. Treasury a certain lulu (he believed about 6;000/. a year). for the erection of piers; and for accomplishing other means of 'protection to the 'Fishery- Stations. 'With regard to that part of the plan which went to encourage the growth of flax ; it appeared that the lion. Gentleman himself was aware that it was a subject of ME culty. 'There appeared, however; to be no want of demand Tofthe flax. Corn, - winch was as expensivein the cultivation :as flax,. was produced in . abundance ; and he th ere f ore cou ld - not see why the noncultiVation of flax was to be attributed to d . tiant 'of capital: lt was never desirable that- ,- Parliament' should lend money to people connected with the landed inte- i rest; 'hut the, proposed loan would be more-than us ua lly ob jectionable, as from the propo se d check, it would Oft en b r i ng the Government. into unpleasant, 'not -to say hostile collision 'with the • landed pmprietorS. He thought there were many other serious objections to the plan iri principle, and to its .execution as proposed, even if the first branch of objec tions were gotten rid of. lie did not wish, however, to press his objections with': earnestness, 'still less with warmth, in a case wherein' the object was so 'laudable.' Parliament had shewn every disposition to afford assistance to Ireland of a legitimate nature. He Meant the remission of taxes and the re moving restrictions upon cominerce.(Hear, hear, hear !)--- These were clear and uno bj ect i on abl e m od es o f assistance ; but that proposed by the lion. Member could not be feared, lie ton sidered, as any thin;; butteMporary and delusive: lie did not wish to meesa motion so introduced to the House as this had been, by a direct negative ; and lie should therefore content him- Self with moving the previous question. Lord' ALTHORP did not think the general objection to grants of this description applied to that ctintemplat e d by the present motion. At present capital was actually forced out of Ireland. It was sent to . - Mexico, and to all parts of the world, ••except to that country. He thought every exertion ought to be made to invite capital to Ireland. To do so, he would almost say that he would consent to takeoff all taxes on direct consumption. If this were *done, many of the difficul ties. to a -residence there 'would be removed; and Many persons who preferred foreign countries for a residence from motives of economy, might shell lie induced to give thepreference to Although he did not entirely concur in :all that had been stated by .the Hon. Mover, he approved of thespian, and slid not think it would be impracticable to carry it into execu tion., .He should therefore' support .the motion. Mr. JOHN SMITH thought the argumentorthe Chancellor Of The Exchequer most extraordinary. This was the first time 6:J20 -ever heard panting ,public loans for national purposes S4grpatiied as prejudicial to a country. fie was himself a CotinniAsioner, under an - .Act of Parliathent, for lending Money to the public for • making roads, :building bridges, 'or some such purpose, and he spOlce from 'experience when he said:that such a practice was productive of the best effects.— Why then was Ireland, So much depressed as she was, to be denied the benefit of, such a system ? . The Right-Hon. Gen tleman, he knew, had the. interest of Ireland at heart. He must say, however, that the London Committee for the relief of the Irish had not met with that support from the Irish Members which they had' a right to expect. Nevertheless, much good had been done. There could not be a more apt instance of the effect of making small loans to the people than that which the fisheries affbrded. With the paltry sum of. 100/. a Re verend Gentleman in Ireland had fitted out upwards of forty fishing boats which had led to the successful employment of SU individual's, whilst there was yet 201. remaining an hand. He was convinced that if we did not change our system of go vernment with regard to Ireland, there were events in the pro— spect of Europe which would pull down this mighty empire from her height, - and bring destruction upon all those mea sures of amelioration which were now only in their infancy.— (Hear, hear!) •' 31r. GOULBURNeontencled that his Right Hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had explained to the House, with his usual clearnesi, the views •which he entertained upon this question. lie (Mr. Goulburn) for one entirely coincided in those views. Nothing could have been more gratifying to him upon liis return to Ireland than to be able to say that lie had assisted in procuring a:million of money from the Parliament. for the use of that country. Btu he was satisfied that such a course would not contribute to the advantagehat large loans of Ireland.— • The. Noble LorskilLord Athorp), represented t had been Made to England; whilst Ireland was excluded. , = was, that in the grant to which he alluded, a simi - 1111. t the Pactsr as made 'for - Ireland, at the same time; for similar' purposes. This; however, was neve r meant as a permanent Captain MA Bl.•;ItLY rose to bring forward his promtsed motion respecting. the Pistress,.l • vhich prevailed in Ireland. After a few preliminary ob , serVatiOns, beggrng the • indulgence of the House, and diselaimingalt political motive to his intro ducing the subject to their notice, the Hon. Methber proceeded to expre.ss his s,tirprise, as . -we • II,AS his regret, that two coun tries so near • to each other as Ehgland and Ireland were, re gulated generally by the saille laws, *and under the same Go vernment, should present such a difFerence in their 'relative eosperity and happiness.' Tbatirelatid Was in a state of suf-. tering was not disputed ; and • Pie first question was to what should the evils be attributed ? ' He was clearly 'of opinion that . it was to be attribut e d to an eticessrve and a redundant popula-, tion, by which lie meant a population excessive and redundant; considered with. reference to the' Means of support which the coantry...prodtsed. • Some' attributed the evil to the use among the. poor of potatoe- food ; but lie did not believe that it was attributable to the lititatoe, or any other partieulat kind of food: ft WAS to be attributed tq the- dharacter and manners of the people,. .Fainirre had•heen sery frequent i n I reland. The last fztmine was in thd. year 18...:, to a most distressing extent. He repeated that hewaa of opinion•tliat excessive population had principally caused the misery; though ot i gt causes might ha ve contributed to it. It was alsoa t a tter of notoriety , th at i n Ire land, grievances, Which at first appeared to be of a load nature, caused. general commotion. Sometimes high rent . was the grievance; at other 'times something else; but whatever the , should fr - rievance the discontent always became extended. This bei ng it his opinion the evil; the' question would be, how ,it be remedied ? • If, • as-lie believed, ,the people were stunu_ lated, the stiinulanta ought to be removed. One of the most inischievaus Of them was the multiplication of small freeholds, which caused a vain and idle desire, in small proprietors, to-see z.rtround them a nutubs:,,. -. of petty retainers. - This mischief was algapromoied by-the Catholic tlergy,.wholie interest it was to , promote rnarr.ge =tong thee who composed their flocks—, an Wenn venience (one among many . .others) attending the ex-, tCIiCA of a majority 'of Ministers of reli:4 - ion ensupported by the public atittorities. lie believed - that Governinent could not remove the evil by any direet remedy, and his own prcp.isal would therefore•beforian indirect'ore. :The first step towards the .rernedy Would-be by inerensing the capital of the cfluntry, and this would he.best obtained by .a.sscurity.af pre-' petty.. , That security would. be insiirett by providing employ- . went, and tile consequent:means of comfort among the poorer a:Ages. --,:Disturbance and the want of employment were gene- , if _not ; 41ways conneacd.—[ The lion. Gentleman .here,. jii order to support the above proposition, 'referred to -thivi.; system of policy, and here he and the Noble Lord were at iin a state* of shiverin g na k e d ness , i n va i n i mp l ore d emp l oy _ variance. It w a s intended to rouse the - vigour and enterprise of ment. His H onoura bl e R e l at i ve ba d particularly said he the people th roug h the medium o f capital, and it was hoped that did not wish to grant loans on land. It was. not, therefore, fair English c a pit a li s t s wou ld have followed the example. - It was ads to treat his argument as such. lie wished to carry on the dis visable howey er t o look at the efface of this course. The Commi s _ cession with the temper which- had hitherto marked it, but he sioners, afterheing some time engaged in distributing the glint must say, that he thought when thei.were voting money for in- small l oam , t h e y represented that the= practice was rather Churches and Palaces, they ought to provide for the necessities worsting evil. th an; goo d in Ireland, They sheeted that it ens- ,of their fellow countrymen, in such a state as were the Irish. bled p ersons carr yie g on trade upo n fictitione : capital to keep Colonel.TßENCH,.said it would create a f ee li ng o f s h ame up injurious c om petition with -the genuine and industrious mingled with satisfa c ti o n in th e I r i s h G ent l emen, when he trailer. U n d er these circunistaneea it- was thought better not stated that the individual alluded to was not an Irishman, but to goon, and he-certainly expected that that House would join an -English Agent - to the ruined. estate Of an Irish Nobleman. witty the I r i s h Government in thinking so likewise. There (Hear, hear !)-He wished that every Irish Gentleman would was anoth er o bj ect i o n to this practice, which he would men- imitate his example, mid every Irish Lady that of his wife-- don. Th e C rown had extraordinary powers of recovering these There was an endurance under suffering in the Irish, so much loans, th e co ns e qu ence of whiCh was to create alaem in an acuteness, and so many excellent moral qualities, that they • other cr e di tors o f those who availed themselves of them, thus were entitled to better things. ,He nine say, that they owed • placing th e nee d y trader in a worse situation after than he was many of their evils to a want of sympathy in the Gentry.— before, Upon t h e whole, he was fully satisfied that the conti- Another evil. was, that the Bank of Ireland. , had not followed nuation of the practice would greatly affect the natural industry the exampl e o f th e B an k o f E ng l an d in lowering the rate of th e p eop l e. Th e re was, beside., another reason why it was of interest on money. A man of not only large capital, but advisable -to abstain from pr es sing upon Parliament for loans good nerves, was now the kind ef. person wanted in Ireland. to I re l an d . Thi s reason l ay in the fact, that of all places Ire. To give an idea of how little was done-by Ireland for-herself, land was one likely to require such loans in times of public he would only mention that, in the County of Roscommon, distress. These were the more fre q u en t f r om the nature of the a Ladies' Committee had been formed, at the head of which food of the people of Ireland, so li a bl e t o extensive and dims. was Mr. Strickland for the purpose of finding employment for trous changes. It was - therefore 'desirable tbar 'Parliament the poor. The Absentees were applied to by them for a Should not be pressed for grants of this description upon light contribution' in . aid- of th e i r un d erta k ing; but although grounds. Absentee property alone amounted to-80,0001. a-year, only Mr. Jon s eerrer and Mr. Gonieoirriee mutually explained. 801. were collected. - He hoped this statement in that House Mr. S. RICE expressed his surprise at the Proclamation' would make an impression in the proper quarters. which h a d j ust b een made by the Irish Government in antici- Mr. ABERCROMBY obierved, that it was a most extraor pation o f t h e st ar vation of the people of Ireland. lie never Binary circumstance that out of i all the redundant capital. of heard a more curious argument against granting the means of this country no part of it should go to Ireland, where there relief. Th e means o f improving the country and its resources, were seven millions of fellow-subjects suffering from the want and pla c i ng th e p eo pl e out of the reach of sudden calamity,' of capital. Something very strange there certainly must, be in were dem a nd e d o f Parliament ; and the answer of the Right such a state of things. But whatever that might he, here was Honourable Secretary opposite (Mr. Goulburn) was,—wait a motion to induce Government t o d o t h at w hi c h i n di v id uals till the peopl e are i n a s t a t e o f actual starvation, 'and then would not do, but which it was most desirable shOuld be done. give them eleemosynary aid.—(Hear, he a r, hear !)—lt was A , long series of mis-government, he feared, w as the cause of the obj ec t o f hi mse lf_ and friends to prevent the people the anomaly - whith lie had noticed; and if some decisive step from falling into this state. The on ly gr ound for a refusal were not taken, the most - fearful results must be andel which the House co u ld a dopt was th a t of distress in Enge" gated. However, notwithstanding the opinions he entertain e d land e b u t thi s was notorious l y untrue. They appeare d to b e o f t h e state of Ireland, he could not assent to the motion 'of his agreed upon the principle, - but differed in the details. The Hon. Friend. His objection was not to the, principle of his greatest benefithad been derived even from the introduction proposition, but its - application. His objection was to the and loan of flax-seed in -Ireland. A friend of his, Mr. strick. : amount of the money, which was such that no security co u ld b e land, had l a id ou t 1,0001. i n t h e purc h ase an d i mportation of offered for-it except the land; and from that he Saw the greatest flax-seed, which he lent to the grower to be repaid at the harvest mischief. In' that respect he entirely accorded with the Right.. time. He sold for five shillings what before could not be got lion. Gentleinan (Mr. Secretary Canning); and was only sue under fifteen. The profit to the individuals arising from this prised that .a person, of his acuteness should ever have enter -1,0001. was no less than 21,0001., and he had the satisfaction to tamed such a scheme tbr a moment. He should, however, be say that Mr. Strickland had received the whole of the 1,0001. glad to see small sums distributed in the -way in which Mr. with the exception of 40/. which he could h a v e u pon d e mand. Strickland had so beneficially employed capital. The Hon. Member also referred to a similar instance of advan- Mr.3IONCK declared his opinion to be against the motion. tage arising from a small capital advanced for the opening of a A great deal was said about. giving employment to Ireland, new turnpike road. In either of the c a ses, if the answer had but he knew no place to which so Much employnient had been been made, which was now made by the Right Hon. Gentleman given for the last thirty years. - During that time upwards of opposite, these happy resu lt s w o u ld h ave b een l ost . a m illi on of acres had been brought into cultivation. The evil Mr. OULBURN complained of the manner in which he of Ireland was in the habits of her population. They did no had been misrepresented. He never had used any such argu- more to the earth than what was sufficient to produce barely ment as that the people of Ireland ought not to be relieved until enough to subsist upon. They built-their own huts, and gave in a state of starvation. Neither did he entertain the opinions no employment to any trade; and their garments were of the represented of him on the .subject of granting loans for national same sparing nature. The superfices of Ireland and Scotland, purposes. Ile did not approve of the application in-the present he believed, was much about the same, yet how different were •instance of such an application in the mode proposed. But he the amounts of their public burdens? He should propose an was himself a party to the yearly . advance of such loans, for. Absentee Tax in the shape of Is. in the pound on the whole the making of roads, or any national monuments of th a t de_ land of Ireland. If some alterations like that he had suggest scription. ed was - made, much good might be done. -If they did not pro- Mr. S. RICE said he was very sorry if he had misrepresented duce any real,advantage, they would at least Open the way for any thing which had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman. improvement. Nothing was farther from his intention, and no one was more Mr. II UTCHINSON repeated what he had 'frequently said disposed than lie was to give credit to the Right Hon. Gentle- in that House, namely, that unless the tranquillity of Ireland man for his services in Ireland. . was established, the safety of the British Empire was not se- • Mr. Secretary CANNING said he had been accidentally cured. He returned thanks to the Right Hon, Secretary of absent from the House during the latter part of the speech of State for Ireland for the good intention which h a d be en ex his Right Hon. F r iend (M r . G ou lb urn ), an d a l so d ur i ng t h e. pressed. towards Ireland ; but how could he be satisfied, as an commencement of that of the lion. Gentleman who had just Irish Member, whilst the population of the country remained sat down. He could not therefore say how far his Right Hon. unemployed; and in a state of famine. If Lancashire or York- Friend had been misrepresented; - But knowing his sentiments - shire were placed for a few weeks in the ,same situation as the as he did, he certainly had not heard without surprise time ar- South and' West Of Ireland, the whole force of England would gunients attributed to him by the Hon. Gentleman, and it gave not keep the public peace. He was ready . to tell the Govern him great. pleasure to .fi n d th e ma tt er c l eare d u p as it had, ment they had b een a d vanc i ng towards the' interests of Ireland been. The Hon. Gentlem a n opp os it e seemed t o hi m t o be argu- with a snail's pace ; and he cautioned them, .not to' let Perlia ing the question, wh e th er any occas i on s h ort o f t h e ex i gency o f men t b rea k up an d depa r t without doing something more sub waalt ought or ought not to obtain a grant of p u bli c mone y fo r stantialfor Ireland. lie thanked the. Ministers for their polite relief. Phis, however, was not the question before the Ho t ise. attention to the affairs of Ireland, but nothing could be done The question at issue Was, whether the present was that occasion without furnishing the starving population with employment. in which relief ought to he afforded in this particular man- ,Aldermati BRIDGES rose amidst a loud cry of question.— ner. And he had perfectly understood the olfinion of his, It was most distressing, he said, to h ear o f t h e d istressed state Right Honourable Friend to he that w hi c h h e hi mse lf e nt er _ of Ireland, without being able to afford relict. He did not see tanned, viz.—that although there might be many situations why, at a time when loans were advanced with so much faci incidental to Ireland which constituted such a necessity, the lity, that money could pot be applied to the advantage of Ire present situation was not of that natur e which did call for laid. land. He tho ug h t if secur i ty could be given on the land that Whatever proposition was brought into that House for the something beneficial might be done. relief of Ireland was sure to Meet vaah favour; and no pro- Sir JOHN NEWPORT thought it necessary to trouble the position, he was sure, had ever been introduced with more House with a few words.' fie agreed in Many of the' observe temper or ability, both in execution and conception, than that tions made by a n H on . Friend, as to the necessity of taking which the House th e n entertained. The same temper, niO. measures for giving Ireland tranquillity. 'Before any appli , deration, and good sett e e evinced by the Hon. Mover would, cation of capital could be useful the people must be restored he was convinced, spew him that many persons might differ to peace and habits of ind ustr y. H e as k e d h ow i t happened from him in thi s specific proposition, without any difference Session after Ses s i o n th a t G overnment too k no steps to remedy as to the principl e upon which •it proceeded. In the mode the abuse's in the office of Sheriffs in Ireland. That of all evils of application, lie thought there was an inconvenience to the called loud for redress. The lion. Member for Reading had propo se d p l an. , The Honourable Mover rested his plan for described the peasantry of Ireland as placed in rags and instance, on the success 'of a airliner applicati on w hi c h t rans - wretchednes s by their own misconduct, and it was said why formed a bar ren di str ict to a •flourishing . populous country.— don't the gentry of Ireland come forward. The fact was, ex- From such 'a proposition no roan could withhold-his assent—it cessive taxation had beggared the gentry of Ireland and ruined could n o t b e d ou b te d that it was a great blessing. But the the peasantry. Th e ,H on . G en tl eman sa id , was i t f a i r t h at Eng- Hon. Gentl e m a n did not mean to s a y, that such would be the landeind Scotland should pay for the support of Ireland ? Did effect ofa similar experiment upon all barren districts ?—Many the Hon. Gentleman know the amount of the - money brought upon which it was ascert a i ne d any i nto E ng l an d b y a b sentees . Th e measures of this country had m su o c n h e t y he i r a e id we o r u e t, in s; E •o nf il l d antl, be entirely thrown away. Another ruined Ireland, and it was the duty of Government to provide a instance, in support of the motion, had been adduced. He meant remedy for their distresses. Unless something was done, a coa the advance o f 1,000/. by Mr. Strickland for the purchase of lition would shake the fabric, it must be the wish of all in that flax.seed, which had so fructified as to yield a profit of 20,0001. Irouse to support. —a better pr oo f cou ld not be -adduced of a good understanding :liar. Secretary PEEIs. did not rise to enter into discussion betwixt l an dlo r d an d tenant. But he did not see how it advanced on the question, because, he felt, and. the Right Honourable time argument w hi c h it affe.cted, thus :—A landlord by advanc- Baronet triusafed; that was not the best moment fordiscuision. ing money t o hi s tena nt, dote; service to that tenant ; ergo the Thmesubject had been so entirely examined by his Right ilo- Guyer= ent ought to lend money to the Gentry of Ireland. This, nourable Friend, I hat he had only to concur in his observations. I althou g h it did not affect thedirectquestionbeforetheHouse,open- 'rite Right Hon. Baronet had said one of the great causes why e:1 a branch of the question which h a d not hitherto been touched the introduction of' capital to I re l an d would- not be useful, upon. For although Government advanced public works in was th e uncer t a inty of correct conduct on the part of the She- Ireland, yet it did not do so altogether in the capacity of a riffs and Sub-Sheriffs of Ireland. The Honourable Baronet, lender; and, above all, "at to the landed interest. The in- upon reflection, must be satisfied that every thing had been stance of the flax, if it applied, went to t hi s, t h at t h e landlord done- to remedy the law with r espect to t h e elect i on o f Sheriff's. sho u ld h e enabled b y Government to lend his capital. If i t , H e was rea dy to admit that the administration of the duty of did not me a n th a t, i t meant nothing ; for to say that Govern- Sub-Sheriff was defective, but the Commission recommended ment ought to advance money to the Gentry of Ireland, be. by the Hon. Baronet we'e going on with their inquiry into the cause there were persons in that coun t r y w h o cou ld d o th a t Subject... the inquiry i n t h at House until the report of the He might ask then, whether it would not be better to already, would be a very illogical method of supporting the postpone Com motion before the House. He was decidedly of opinion that mittee was made. That consideration was the only one which the sche me o f t h e Honourable Member was in the highest could lead to delay on the port of Government, and he held degree mischievous. lie spoke with the warmth of a convert, that to be a satisfactory cause. for he had had the misfortune at one time to think that a similar Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, the "execution of the offlee of plan would do for. England. He had entertained great faith Sub-Sheriffhad nothing to do with the cause of complaint. He in a scheme for advancing money to- the landed gentlemen at complained of the insufficiency of the law with respect to the a low rate of interest to enable them to redeem annuities and execution of the office of Sheriff: mortgage s . H e h a d se t out upon an inquiry into the feasibili- ..-.Captain 111 A I3ERL Y . replied. Permanent employment in - ty of such a sc h eme w i t h the most sanguine expectations that he Ireland would, he was convinced, more than compensate for should arrive a t a prosperous conclusion. But, after the most present distresses. New trade and manufactures might pro elaborate investigation, lie was obliged to yield a painful and mote the interest of Ireland. ' Fisheries on the coest might be reluctant a ssen t t o - th e conviction that such a plan was imprac- made the source of great national advantage. :In 1817 an in.. ticable ; and if practicable, would be most mischievous. In such dividual erected a fishery on the coast of Scotland, which beat a case the Crown -became the creditor, than which it was impos- the - Datcle out of the Hamburgh market. sible to conveive any thing mor e i nconven i ent f or t h e landed •The -House then divided— - interest. It was to be observed that. it would not be the - Mr. : .For the Motion - -- . • - -.-. - .33 • Stricklands' that would become the debtors in such a case, but Against it - - . - e * 85 . the needy only. It was remar k e d, h e believed in - tire Spectator . • .= - ' Majority ag a in s t it - . --• --52 Or some other periodical 'voile, that there was no character un- .. BAPTISMS AND BURIALS. derwent a greater change throithat of a lender. We went to him -- Mr. KEMP, p ursuan t t o not i ce , b roug h t f orwar d his motion e cap in hand, and regarded hi m a s the most amiabl e bein g so lon g respecting a M etropo li tan R eg i ster o f Bi rt h s, Baptisms, and as he retained that ' distinction. But a couple o f y ears conve r t e d Burials. The Hon. Member concluded by moving for leave to him into a creditor, and then we found nothing more unpleasant bring in a Bill to authorize time establisment of a Metropolitan than to look him in the face. This change then would take place - Register of Baptisms, Marriages, and Burials, in England. with regard to the Crown when assuming the sane character—a • Mr. Secretary PEEL said, he could not pledge himself to day of payment must come, and then, as conciliation was to be support the Bill, not knowin g exact l y w h at i t was. one object of suchameasure, he called upon them to look how Th e mo ti on was t h en agree d to, and leave given to bring in far from such an attitude the Crown would assume when, it a Pill.. Came to force payment. Wh at wou ld become of'- prior credi tors, for it was certain the Crown would enforce payments in a way of its own, which w ou ld b e to the detriment of all others ? It would in short be their eventual ruin. These were the argu ments which had dissuaded him from a similar scheme during a period of landed distress, and he was sure the application of such a r e medy now to Ireland would create greater evils than it was proposed to relieve. The more unobjectionable part of the sch e me, that which referred to public works, was still car ried on, and the fund for that purpose was not exhausted. He gave the fullest credit to the Hon.. Mover for the benevolence in - which his scheme originated, a credit to which he considered himself partially entitled ; at the same time that he was obliged most reluctantly te e give his dissent to the motion. Mr. MA BERLE Y, sen t supported the motion. The ques tion was not of that abstract nature which many Gentlemen seemed to think. The Hon. Mover had told them that there was a district in Ireland already in a state of starvation, and that if they did not -apply some means of reliefrebellion would break out as it had often done in similar cases. He also suggested a remedy, which there could be no doubt would be successful. Indeed they knew that the same scheme had been productive of the happiest effect in the North of Ireland; and he now asked t h em t o appleathe same remedy to the South, and with the same certain success. The dreadful state' of the population of the South-of Ireland ought to move them to take this remedy, or any . remedy. He assured them that there' were many cases in which the poor people did- not earn two -pence a week, . and PAROCHIAL FUNDS. Sir J. NEWPORT said, a large sum of money, name!y, 50,0001. had been expended in building a church in the parish of St. George, Dublin. The people of that parish had paid towards the building without having been able to obtain any account of the expenditure, and the Right lion. Bart. therefore moved " There be laid before the. House an account of all sums of money borrowed and raised for building a Church in the parish of St. George, Dublin, since 1808."—The Returns were ordered. Sir J. NEWPORT also gave notice, that on Thursday he should move for certain statistical Accounts relating to Ireland. On the motion of Mr. BANKES, the British Museum Bill was read a third time, and passed. Mr. KENNEDY moved to bring up the Report of the Scotch Jury Bill. The LORD ADVOCATE objected to several provisons of the Bill, but reserved his main opposition for the third reading. air. KENNEDY supported the provisions of his Bill. Mr. ABERCROKIsY and Mr. COURTENAY - supported the Bill. Mr. Secretary PEEL suggested the postponement of the Bill to next Session, for the purpose of malting it less objec tionable. Mr. SCARLETT was disposed to adopt the suggestion of the Right lion. Secretary, and his hope was, that the Lord Advocate would not get rid of the Bill by a side wind. Mr. KENNEDY was willing to re = commit the Bill, upon an understanding that the re-committal should take place" ort an early day. , . • On the motion of Sir G. CLERK, the Bill was then ordered to be re-committed this day. The other Orders of the Pay were then disposed of, and 11 4 House adjourned at Half-liaStTwo o'Cleck... LIST OF THE MINORITY, Who voted on Captain 11Iabeily's Motion for a . Committee of the whole House to consider the propriety - of addressing the Crown to advance capital; not exceeding one million, to Ire land, to be employed in the Provinces of: Mitnster,and Con naught, and appointing.Commissioners,f)r carrying this ob ject into effect. Althorp, Visct. Lamb, Hon: G. • Sykes, D. Brownlow, C. _ Leader, W. Stuart, W. (Arm.) Clifton, Viscount Moberly, J. Stanley, Hon. E. C• Clements, 'Hon. J... Marjoribanks,..S. -Tierney, Rt.fin.O. Denman, Thos. Newport, Sir J. Talbot, R.W. Ellis, .1: m. G. A. Nugent, Loid 'White, S. Ebrington, Visct. , Pelham, J. C. . White, H. Foley, J. Power, R. Wood, Handley, Henry Rice, 'T. S. - IVestenra, Hn. H. Hutchinson, Hon.. Smith, J. Whitbread, S. C. C. 11. Smith, Hon. R. TELLtIt• Honeywood, W. P. Stanley, : Lord 'Moberly, W. 1..• PARLIAIikNTAiiT PROCEEDINGS. OF COMMONS. - Marais, 4 0 die Mali, 1824. • • ROADS-Cheltenham-Five Petitions, against; referred to the Committee, on thall. Renfrewshire-Pctition of Free holders, &e. of Ayr, against, referred to the Committee on the Bill. •Comtheecial-c-Twa Petitions, against, referred to the Committee.on the Bill. Durham and Tyne Bridge--Pe- tition from Gateshead, against., referred to the Committee Ole the Bill. Finchley e -Bill reed a first time. Kensington- Bill read a third time, and'passcd. • • - Melodies-Southwark, and Teignmouth-Bills read a second. • time, and committed. • • • • Bnisror, Tower' DUES-Petition from Dutsley and Minchin hampton, in favour ; and from Wootton-under-edge, against; to lie on the table. ' ' •-• • WATEnwonEw -Cheltenham-creation of - Inhabitants, in fa. your, to lie on the table. . • DE a TS-Thames Navie•aiiiin, Coal Exchange, and Blackfriar's • Bridge-Petitions forlave to present Petitions for Bills re ported, and leave given. Cuemnien'or CaustEnee-Newry-Petition for !cave to pre sent: a .Petition fora Bill reported,' and Petition for Bill re ferred to a Committee. DOCKS-South London-Petitions of Porters of Billingsgate, and Vestrymen. of Borbelydown, against, referred to the COmmittee on the Bill. St. Katherine's -Three Petitions, against, referred to the Committee oil the Bill ; and Two, ditto, to lie on the table. ConreareEs-British Gas' Light, Alliance British and Fo reign Life and Fire Assurance, and St. Patrick Assurance-- . Petitiens for leave to present . Petitions for Bills reported. and Petitions fit Bills ref. rred to Committees. London and Westminster Oil Gas, and Compressed Gas-Petitions of the London Gas Light and Coke Company, against, referred to the Committee on the Bill. MAR T s-Bilston-Bill read a third time, and passed. Can terbury-Bill read a first time. Poo R ReTEs-Newton Lane-Bill reported, to be ingrossee. Gee LronT - Birmingham-Petitien for leave to present a Pe tition for a Bill reported; Petition for Bill referred to a Com mittee ; Petition of the* Birmingham Gas Light Company, against, to lie en the table. Londonderry -Bill read a first time. Ceerets-Bristol and Taunton-Petition of Trustees of Tann tOn Roads, against; referred to the Committee on the Bill. Counter's Creek-Bill reported, to be in Tossed. Jur eovx ENT-H -- uhnePetition •of Inhabitants, against, to lie on the table. • RIDES AND - SiciNsfßlLL--40ne Petition, in favour, and Two, against, to lie on the table ; Ten ditto, in favour, and Ten, against, referred to the Committee on the Bill. BEER DUTIES BILL-Petitions from Brewers, &c. of Derby, • Bolton, Chorley, 'Warrington, Dundee, Forfar, and Liver pool, against, to lie on the table. WooL-Petition'from Castletim, for repeal of the Miles. On the importation of Foreign Wool, to lie on the table. FISHERIES (Ireland)-Petition from Skerries, Rush, and Bal• briegan, for a continuance of the Bounties and Fishery Es tablishment. WAREHOUSED WHEAT BILL-Petitions from Clonmett, Waterford, Wickham, and Youghall, aga i ns t, t o li e on the table- Second Rending deferred till Thursday. CoUxTY COURT* Bird—Petition from Penzance, in favour ; from Counsel o f th e P a lad e Court (Westminster), and Town Clerk of Cambridge, -for , compensation ; and from Man chester, against excepting Lancashire from the operation on to lie on the table. COMBINATION OF WORKMEN LAWS-Petitions from New. • ark-upon-Trent, Glasgow, Cambridge, and Manchester, against, referred to the Select Committee on Artixans. and Machinery; and from Edinburgh, to lie on the table. DISTILLERY LAWS-Petitions from Lanark and Dumfries Shires, for a free and egnal.trade in Spi r it s throughout tie United Kingdom, to lie en the table. NOTARIES Plume-Petition. for repeal of the Duties•on Li cences to act as Notaries Public, from Dumfries, to lie on the table. SALT DuTIEs-Two Petitions from Middlesex, for the entire repearthereof,, to fin on the table: COAT. Derues-Petition against the Duties on Coale, from , South Shields, to lie on the table. • Linen BOUNTIES--Petition froth Mayo, for continuance of, to lie on the table. • GAME ,LAWS AMENDMN T.-Petition from Gloucestershire, against, to lie on the table. ASSESSED Texts-e-retition from Castle Cary; for the repeal thereof; to lie on the table. HOUSE AND WINDOW TAX-Petition from Dartmouth, for the repeal thereof, to lie on the table. MEsseon FROM THE LORDS-That they 'hays agr e ed to Innkeepers Bill, C ons t a bl es (Ireland) Bill, County Treasu rers (Ireland) Bill, Records (Ireland) Bill, Proctors Costs (Ireland) Bill,-Blackburn and Preston and Scartho Roads Bills, and Macclesfield School Estate kill, without amend. ment: BRITISH MUSEUM RUM DUTIES SUGAR BOUNTIES EXCHEQUER BILLS (Public Works) MILITIA PAT • lIASLEBOROUGII WALK INCLOSURE DIVIDEND TRANSFER PASSAGE VESSELS REGULATION GLASS AND SWEETS Rocs IN IRELAND . NEWFOUNDLAND FISHER/ES-15ill "to make provision for the better conduct of the Fisheries on the banks of New - foundland," read a . first time, to be read a second time on Monday next, and to be printed. Bills read a 3d time s. and passed. • Bills read a 2d - time, and committed: NOTICES OF MOTIONS FOR THIS DAY. 1. Colonel Davies—Constitution of the Irish Militia. 2. Mr. Mundy—Account of Beer lirewcd in certain Counties. ORDERS OF THE DAY FOR THIS DAY. 1. Laad Revenue Sale of Stock Bill—Committee. 2. Slave Trade Laws Consolidation Bill—Further Consider:* ation of Report. - 3. New-street (Mary-le-bone) Bill—Committee. 4. Supply—Committee. 5. Ways and Means—Com'mittee. 6. Junes (Scotland) Bill—Committee. 7. County Courts Bill (Compensation to Officers of Cdurts of Justice)—Report thereupon. 8. County Courts'iliti (Compensation to Officer:, of the County of Lancaster)—Report thereupon. NOTICES, GIVEN YESTERDAY. Thursday, May 6. 1. Mr. Goulburn—Committee on the state of the Couilties in Ireland in which the Insurrection Act has beenl force. 2. Sir John Newport—Statistical Returns respecting the Popu lation of Ireland. Monday, May 10 1. Mr. Maberly—Repeal of the whole of the Assessed Taxes• 2. Mr. Trench—To refer to a Committee of the whole House the Petition frotn the Town Clerk of Cambridge, for com pensation, in consequence of losses from County Courts IEII • LAW INTELLIGENCE. COURT OF CHANCERY, MAYA. THE NEW JUDGE. B•fore the LORD CHANCELLOR came into Court, he was detained in his private room for some time, administering the oaths to Mr. LITTLEDALE, as a Sergeant at Law. The patent was then sealed, and the Learned Sergeant was imme diately sworn in to be one of the Judges of the Court of King's Bench: Lord Chief Justice ABBOTT was present during the ceremony: I are "Ye t en Diti for --C 01 Bail for bui In lair to c and the Co on, ind lia, on, t tall , he s i mos