The Sun. — London, England, 1849-06-13 00:00:00

r ! re not qualified to settle disputed qusations of boundary, Mr. HUME—The bcundary was settled though. Lord PALMERSTON—Nut by a " geographer."— (Laughter.) His Hon. Friend said that there was eething new at the bottom of his proposal. He assured his Hon. Friend he was miAaken in a material fact, be ;tose it was not true that when a Governme n t sent a P lenipotentiary to carry on a negotiation, whether for Peace or war, notwithstanding that full and entire powers were entrusted to him, that the Government were bound to Co — y with everything he id. Salon as h con- f ined himself to his instructions d , the Government e were oeund not by his acts, but by their own aut horit y; but the m oment the envoy outstepped his instructions, his Government were not bound by his acts. A treaty concluded—although there might be no reason to Suppose that the Envoy had exceeded his instructions — !al of no avail until it had receiv ed the ratification of ~Lee Government for which he was acting. Ile assured his ` l ° l l. Friend then that his proposal was new. His Hon. Frie n d hid quoted several cases of international nego tiation. If his Friend had quoted cases in which arbi tration had succeeded—in which, he would say, arbitra tion' had frequently been submitted to, and, having been submitted to, had succeeded—he (Lord Palmerston) 'Tight be disposed to view his motion in a more favour -5°15 light. His Hon. Friend had enumerated several cases where he said the principle of arbitration had been successfully carried out; and amongst these cases he had referred to those of the Vixen and the boundary ques • ti cm, to which he had already alluded. But the case in relation to the Vixen had been amicably settled between t his country and Russia, without the intervention of a tnird party; therefore that case did not illustrate the advantages of the principle of arbitration. Then there was the American boundary question. In that case ar • bitration, as he had shown, had failed, and ultimately the matter was disposed of in the usual way, through the medium of negotiation. This example, instead of being in favour of the principle of arbitration , went to 'now that it was wholly unnecessary in the settlement of disputes between nation. Then, in the case of the Ca rolina, the United States and this count r y were anxious "`' come to a mutual settlement respecting it , bu t the Pre sident and the United States could come to no under standing with England on thee subject, as the State of New .•Yo'rk might object to the arbitration , and, there lore, it was neces3ary that the qestion should be settled to a court of law. This again showed that arbitration could not always apply beneficially. At the same time he must say that he thought it was a most destrable thing when two nations fell out that a third party, who could and would act impartially should be called in, in order that he (night effect by his calmer reason a corn tromlie tietivenh'tie:contending parties.—(Hear, hear.) But he thought the practice at present existing between nations was opening the door to this principle becoming very, general. He had himself acted very much on this principle, and for which he had frequently been held up to public obloquy.—( Hear, hear.) But he felt very easy under those charges—satisfied that England, whether she succeeded or not, was justified from her high political, manufacturing, and commercial position, in offering her Mediation in respect to the affairs of other countries with whom she was on terms of frie ndshi p .—(Cries of i Ilear, hear.") His Honourable Friend, and those who act with him, must be gratified in finding th e principle upon which their views were based was cowing into general operation. his Hon. Friend had said that the wars which now convulsed the conti nent of Europe were not the wars to which it was pro. Posed to apply the principle of arbitration. He quite agreed with him in this view of the case , and h e must here observe that it was a satisfactory proof of the im proved civilization of nations. and of classes , to find that what was now going forward had not embroiled the na irna of Europ e in hostile wars. Such matters could not „aye occurred half a century ago without the natio ns of Europe being in direct hostility with each other. The t r aetiee of mediation had prevailed in many p laces, and bea'w.ci been put into operation by this country would be the duty of this Government, or of any Government, as it w ould be also their pride, to soften d own the asperitiesa arising between nations, and to endeavour to settle the dif ferences existing between them, either without having recourse to war, or by shortening war. Therefore, the Motion of his Hon. Friend was not one which he could advise the H ous e to assent to. He thought it was one which no foreign country could adopt, and it would be dangerous for this country to be bound by the principle Involved in it. For these reasons he could not agree with the motion. He should not, however, negative the prop os i t i on, b u t wou ld move the previous question , as ~e that would be the most courteous mode o f meetin g it. 41 therefore begged to move the previous question. Mr. M. GIBSON said that his Hon. Frie nd had con sidered this question fully, and he never entertaine d the impracticabl e views suggested by the Noble Lord. It the desire f or peace was s o general, how was it that it becamebecame necessary to have such large armaments as they had in this country? He did not think the Noble Lord i ° ,!td furnished him with any good argument t o induce Vol to vote against the motion of his Hon. Friend. The Noble Lord said that there were defects in the principle of arbitration. Who denied this? But did fighting settle it? Vatel, who was in favour of arbitration, had admitted that it might be defective; but he went on to say that it was better they should fail in arb itration than have recourse to bloodshed. There was the question which had taken place between America and England. hie alluded to our taking British seamen out of Ame riean vessels. We fought about it until both got tired of doing so, and then came the treaty of Ghent, in which not one word occurred in reference to this cause of quarrel between America and England. We did not settle it that day; it might still be a cause of quarrel. Re contended that the question might have been settled by arbitration. The Noble Lord object , dto prospective arbitration. If the proposition of his Hon. Friend bad one good quality more than another about it, it was the fact of its anticipating differences between nations. — (Hear, hear.) Ile confessed that he believed his Hon. Friend's opposition was a most practicable one. It was only asking nations to t ase their objects upon principles et' justice. If their views were ambitions and their ends aggrandisement, then he could understand why nations mi g ht object to act in accordance with the object con templated by the motion of his Hon. Friend. If any. thin g could prove the value of his Hon. Friend's propo sition, it would be, the result of all their wars to crush public opinion on the continent. Money had been spent, a great amount of blood had been shed, and yet the Power of public opinion was just where it was. The Hon. Member then referred to the opposition given to t he proposition of his Hon. Friend by certain public Journals, and yet one of these journals had recently an able article to show the value of peace over war, and thus J u c s tifSlog this motion, the object of which was to g et rid ( 1 2 , 4 war. —(near.) The Hon. Gentleman r ead an extract the article in q uestion in support of his statement. ne could r e ad to the House many extracts, to show the horrors rs of war, which were grea ter than those attendant upon slavery. The Hon. Gentleman then lead extracts from letters, in which the horrors of the We Indian war were vividly pourtra)ed. The Right lo e. Gentleman continued to read extracts giving de tails of the results of the war in India, and went on to a ay that a thing could induce men to adopt arbi ration more than by l essen ing the advantages of war, and first :e would do away with privateering.—(Hear, hear.) At e time they had so many as 700 letters of marque i n this country. Nothing was worse than the system o f p. t ivateering, as it was the worst species of ro bber y , and tteserved the severest punishment. He would next do away with prize money—(Hear, hear) —for it held out an inducement to war, and asa precedent for the proposi tion of his Hon. Friend, he would call attention to a tre s . tY, which had the sanction of th e names of Adams, Jeffe r son, and Franklin—a treaty which had been en tered into between the United States of America and Prussia, in the time of Frederick the Great, and which Was called the Treaty of Amity and Commerce. Ac cOrding to that treaty, cultivators of the land, fishermen, and unarmed reerchants of the seas were to be protected, and exempted from the horrors and the consequences of war. —(Hear.) The Noble Lord (Palmerston) said that the four cases which had been cited by his Hon. Friend had been settled in the ordinary way. Now, as to the Oregon case, be (Mr. Milner Gibson) had no doubt that the force which the Noble Lord said this country had at its back at the, time rather increased the difficulty than smoothed the way to a settlement of the boundary ques tion. Before he sat down he would address a, few words to his agricultural friends, who were said to be favourable to war, and would desire, to impress we them that the time was gone by when they could associate in their minds a state of war with :a rise in prices.— (Hear.) The state of protection had passed away, and they could not again, as in 1815 , fall back on th e l aws E ng land was not likely ever ag a i n t o b e efigeged in a long war. They could no longer increase their indirect taxation —and it was abundantly proved that, if England should engage in war, the property of the country must pays and that was a grand security they had against the chances of war.—(Hear.) lie was sorry the Noble Lo rd had concluded with the motion he had made, as he would rather have seen the motion of his lion. Friend decided upon its own merits. Although the proposition of his Hon. Friend could not Operate in such a case as th at of the unjustifiable inter ference of France in the aff airs of Rome; and although the Noble Lord had disclaimed any participation in that i nterference, there had been some suspicion thrown upon the Government, partly owing , to the articles which had appeared i n c ertain English journals abusin g the Tri umviratet, the de facto Governors of Rome, and portico -4'sl Mr. Mazzini, whom he had the pleasu re of know ing, and from that knowledge he felt con fident that the aspersions cast upon him had been most unfounded. Whatever opinions.had been previously entertai ned, the y hid now the satisfaction of having a distinct disclaimer op, the part of the British Government, which he hoped would not be without its weight, as nothing he conceived could be more unjustifiable than the course which had been pursued by France with reference to. Rome. Mr. ROEBUCK said the Hon. Member for Man chester (Mr. M. Gibson) had expressed his regret that the Noble Lord had concluded his speech by moving the previous question, but he (Mr. Roebuck) must say, that although he disliked the conclusion of the Noble Lord's speech, he must at the same time admit that he had never listened to any speech of the Noble Lord's with more pleasure, or one that was throughout distin. guished by more enlarged and liberal v i ews , an d by a morecomprehensive philanthropy.—(Hear, hear.) lie said that without intending to admit that the Noble Lord's acts were always in accordance with his speeches, n ,ras it his intention to enter into an examination of tang „Noble Lord's foreign policy. He disliked the mode of argument adopted by the Hon. Member for Man• chester in the course of his speech, and the very minute details. he entered into of individual misery. Th e y livers all aware of the miseries of war.—(Hear.) It Was his belief, however, that they should read the na tions of Europe a good lesson, and it was upon that ground that he meant to support the resolution of the lion. Member (Mr. Cobden). He did not participate in any Utopian views on the subject, nor did he expect that people would be altogether preTented from going to war. The sole proposition which would he embraced in the adoption of the motion of his Hon. Friend would be this, that with all their strength, and all their power, and all their advantages, tnis country would be the first to ask other nations to settle their differences by an ap peal to reason.—(Hear.) And how had that proposition been met by the Noble Lord (Lord Palmeeston)? He did not directly oppose it; but he moved the previous question, which was, in fact, admitting the principle, but simply saying that the present was not the time for adopting the proposition. Now he (Mr. Roebuck) would say that, considering the state of Europe, the present was precisely the time for its adoption, and he would, therefore, fix the Noble Lord to that, and meet him upon the point. Nations, like individuals, lost their tempers too frequently, and went to war instead of appealing to common sense. Tho case of the Caroline was peculiarly the case of a nation losing its temper. The Government of the United States was at war on that subject with the British Government. The Governments, if left to themselves, would have no diffi culty in settling the dispute ; but the people interfered. That was not a case to be brought forward against the proposition of the Honourable Member for the West Riding. As had been truly stated by the Noble Lord at the head of the Foreign-office, arbitration was in this matter of the Caroline employed between England and America. The King of the Netherlands acted as an arbitrator. He gave a decision in our favour.: The Americans, however, objected to it, and by their con duct rendered the arbitration null and void. This was accepted by the British Government, possibly because it was thought certain the United States Government would not accept - it. Now, what he wanted was that England should, by adopting his Honourable Friend's proposition, set an example to all nations to avoid, as much as possible, appeals to arms.—(Hear, hear.) He did not believe that, if they adopted the proposition, wars would cease at once, or that there would be less chance of war occurring among the less instructed people ; but he did believe that the effect of their adopting such a resolution would be to induce other nations to come to their de cision. All he asked the Noble Lord at the head of her Majesty's Councils to do was, to give them the sanction of his opinion that the plan, it in could be adopted, would be a wise mode of settling the disputes of nations. They ought to consider the effect of that night's debate on the empire at large. The speeches there delivered would go out to the world as the sentiments of the greatest deliberative assembly in the world—an assem bly at the head of a most powerful and peaceful people. They represented a united people, and the force of their expressions were estimated, not by the worth of' the in dividuals who gave them utterance, but of the commu nity in which they were uttered. It was not he that spoke, but the House of Commons, through the humble individual who then addressed them. What would be the effect of truncating his Hoe. Friend's proposition by moving the consideration of the previous question? He regretted much that the Noble Lord at the head of Fo reign Affairs had lost the present opportunity of sanc tioning by his adoption a proposition which tended, not only to the liberty of mankind, but of national civiliza tion. He lamented that the Noble Lord did not grasp that opportunity of reading a lesson to the nations of Europe which in their present position they so much stood in need of. At the present moment, when the name of England, he believed, had been partly employed as a means to sanction such proceedings as were a dis grace to humanity—he allud' dto the attack made by the French Government an the people of R ;me—he regretted that the Noble Lord had not availed himself of the op portunity, not only to repudiate all connexion or assent in those proceedings, and to withdraw the British name from all participation in them, but to raise up the standard of civilization and peace, and to ask foreign na tions it they were willing to join England in appealing, where disputes arose, to common sense and reason, in stead of to war and the sword. Mr. W. MILES approved of the course taken by the Noble Lord at the head of Foreign Affairs in meeting the proposition before the House by moving the previous question. The previous question in this case meant that the Noble Lord and those who supported him agreed in the fundamental principle of the resolution. The Hon. Member for Sheffield had told them that the present period was fit and opportune for determining the question submitted by the lion. Member for the West Riding, but he did not think the Hon. Gentleman had succeeded in establishing that point. He told them that the state of Europe was one of convulsion, marked less by tumult than strikieg injustice. This surely was not the peculiar moment at which the Secretary for Foreign Affairs could adopt as a practical measure a proposal of general arbitration to the Powers of Europe. Could they name any nation with whom there was the slightest chance of success of entering into such an arbitration. If they proposed it to the French Government, consider. ing the condi - ion of the French Republic, the Noble Lord at the heat of Foreign Affairs could scarcely ex pect a favourable answer. Was it to such a Govern ment as that of Russia that they could hope to enter into a negotiation of this nature? He believed it could not be done with advantage to this country or to the cause of mankind; and, therefore, though he agreed in the principle of the [notion, he should support the amend ment of the Noble Lord. Mr. fIUME thought the course adopted by the Hon. Gentleman who last addressed the House exceedingly strange. He approved of the conduct of the Hon. Member for the West Riding, he approved of the prin ciple of the motion of the Hon. Member, and yet he said he would vote against it. Mr. M. MILES—I intend to support the motion for considering the previous question. Mr. HUME—The Hon. Gentleman should know, after what had fallen from the don. Member opposite, that moving the previous question was an admission of the principle of the motion of his Hon. Friend. The Noble Lord at the head of Foreign Affairs admitted fully and fairly that he concurred in the principle of the motion, but that be doubted the practicability of carry ing it out. That was the entire difference. How much more good would be effected if the proposition had the assent of the Noble Lord and of the Government, and if the m , tion were carried unanimously. He was much pleased that the debate had taken place, because the Noble Lord made a speech which he heard with great satisfaction, and made a declaration which he hoped might be carried to every part of the habitable globe, for it would have the effect of removing an impression that now existed unfavourable to his Lordship, namely, that instead of promoting feelings of friendship, and pre venting war between different states, he had fostered discord and disunion, He was quite surprised that the Notle Lord could for a moment hesitate adopting and giving force to a principle which he declared himself to have taken such pride in promoting. He regretted that the Government had taken the open step of op posing the motion, for he held that it would be for the interest of England if they gave their sanction to the adoption, as well as to the principle, of the plan sug gested. What the country wanted was, that war should be avoided by every means.—(Hear.) This was the very country which, from its position, ought to set the example of lessening the incentives to war; and he therefore put it to the House whether they were nut in a position to do so at the present time. In consequence of the Otaheite affair the whole fortifications around the coast were strengthened, and a large amount of money was carelessly spent; while, had the system of his Hon. Friend pre vailed, they would have been save,' all that expense. Again. in regard to the dispute with America as to the boundary line, they were put to an expense of one mil. lion sterling, in order to get up their naval force, in case of a war. That dispute was, in the end, settled by com missioners; and, had that means of settlement been at, first adopted, that expense would have also been saved. lie supported that expenditure, because he thought America meant to bully them; and he also supported in that House a vet a of thanks to Lord. Ashburton for the successful manner in which he had discharged the duties of his mission,—(Hear, hear.) Thus, the system pro posed by his Hon. Friend had been already successful, and it was with regret that he found her Majesty's Go• vernment opposing. By war they had gained nothing but increased taxation. The war they were engaged in with America had entailed upon them upwards of 60 millions to their debt, while the French war had greatly added to that sum, and from the effects of these a system of the most grinding taxation had been given rise to. By a system of proper arbitration that load of debt might have been prevented from being entailed on them, and he now regretted that after the admission of the Noble Secretary for Foreign Affairs, that be agreed in the principle embodied in the motion, he should have felt it his duty to vote against it.--(Hear, hear.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he had hoped that the speech of his Noble Friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, was so clear and distinct that it could lead to no inisconcer ion, but he found that those who had followed his Noble Friend, instead of answering his arguments, h h aedutotally againstm is c o E t c h e e i v ed mo t t i h o e n m e H a n is Ring i o g f h t t h objections asan rtdtyho the htt ohe esdeteeastMemberoetlhaheti there desolation on o pw r ianansi Manchester nnowi difference ff expenseh e r respecte ni had tce created. considered roteioattoehdpei. leivolvirils With Friendnweacre, respect s (Hear.) There was no party in that House who would stand up and say that war was productive of good, or that it ought to be courted; there was no party who ad vocated it as a system; and, therefore, the greater pot.- tion of the speech of his Right Hon. Friend was not ap plicable to the present case. But his Right Hon. Friend said the question was that they should settle their dis putes by arbitration or negotiation, but that was not the question either, for the motion of the Hon. Member for the West Riding had only reference to arbitration. But in respect to the question, so far as it related to the avoiding of war, he thought he was justified in saying that the history of the present generation showed that negotiations had been employed in all pos sible cases for the avoidance of war, and that in most cases it had succeeded. He did not know if it was alto gether right, but his lion. Friend the Member for Mid dlesex had charged some Hon. Members with instigating the war of 1793. Nay, he believed he even went so far as to accuse some of them of instigating the American wa r—(Loud 1 au gh t w er )h--reb;atrhdetothtohuegphrtestehnatt generation e ner m a i t g io h n t safely affirm that, it i t n t that promotingthe y w were e th free v from bwlhaomehaind havingseats of war. When they considere d the various and important questions in which this coun tr y had been brought into in bee th n at forward House, contact, and been engaged with other great nations in discussing—the dispute as to the Vixen with Russia—the Oregon boundary—the Caroliee and the M'Leod affair with the United States—the conduct of the French at Otaheite—the Syrian question—and many others, all of which had been questions of great peril in themselves, some of them exciting to a considerable degree the feel ings of a great people, and yet that under the different Governments which had succeeded each other, these had been settled in such a manner as to prevent war and bloodshed, and friendly relations established betrieen those powers—(Hear, hear)—this he thought was one of the best arguments which could be used in favour of the system heretofore pursued, as well as a sure indi cation of the desire of those at the head of affairs to pre serve peace.—(Hear, hear.) That then was a proof that they did no require any pressing With regard to the preservation of peace. But it so happened that in almost every eve peace had been preserved by the old method negotiation entered into with the powers con cerned. His Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose had referred to the appointment of Lord Ashburton to America, to settle the Oregon dispute, and argued from that in Favour of the motion of the Hon. Member for the West Riding ; but Lord Ashburton did not go to America as an arbiter, he went there as a negotia:er.— (Hear, hear.) He negotiated with Mr. Webster, who met him on the part of the United States, and without the aid of any umpire they settled satisfactorily the dis pute between them. He should say that it was not no cessary to alter that method, as they had hitherto been so successful with it. Ms Honourable Friend the Member for Montrose had sail that they were hound to pass the present motion, and thereby give a general opinion in favour of peace. But the motion went fur ther than that, as were it slowed, the Secretary for Foreign Aff sirs would he bound the day after the ad- dress mentioned in the motion was presented to her Majesty, to communicate with foreign powers, in forming them that in future all disputes would be decided by arbitration. That was more than a mere expression of pacific desires, it was a practical ques tion, which, if the motion was carried, must be im mediately carried !into effect.—(llear, hear.) It was, therefore, impossible for Government to agree to such a motion, unless they were prepared immediately to act upon it, and, although, so far as the Govern ment was concerned, they might be prepared to give a direct negative to the motion, they had contented themselves with moving the previous question. He did not believe, that were the proposed system adopted, it would secure any better means of preserving peace than they at present had. At present, should any question arise which it was thought could be better decided by arbitration than by negotiation, they had in their power to employ that means of settling it. Some cases might arise, intricate in themselves, and in regard to the points disputed, in which neither party would give way, for the decision of which it might be fitting that arbiters should be ap pointed; but there were other questions again, involving the dearest interests of the country, in which the honour of the country was at stake, and which, if Government .proposed to refer to arbitration, the force of public opi nion would at once compel them to relinquish any such idea.—(Cheers.) As an example of such a case, he might refer to the invasion of Holland by Louis XIV. That was a question of invasion on the one hand and of independence and freedom on the other. Had there been a treaty of arbitration between the parties, the ar biters appointed might have proposed that the Dutch should give up a certain city or some portion of their territory, in order that peace might be maintained ; but would the Dutch have subscribed to any such finding? —(Cheers) And was it proper that any foreign person should be appointed to decide whether or not a nation should sacrifice its just rights and interests? There was a question raised at the end of the correspondence be tween Mr. Webster and Lord Ashburton, in which the former complained of the system of pressing British seamen out of American ships, in time of war; but with that Lord Ashburton had nothing to do; and should any such matter be referred to negotiation, the powers granted must be very guarded, as when war was declared against a country it would be unfair should that country he deprived of the services of its subjects, in order to aid in the defence of it. The French expedition to Algiers was another case in point. When that expedition pro ceeded to Algiers the Government of this country asked if they went there for the sake of conquest ; and the answer they received from the French Am bassador was, that it did not. But suppose that the territory the French there might have acquired, should have been referred to arbitration. So far as the right to _ _ it was concerned, and that such arbitration should have decided that the French had no right to territory there, and that they should withdraw their armies, would the French have obeyed?—(Hear, hear.) He believed they would have done no so such thing.--(Cheers.) For any Government who should ban proposed to do so, would not hive b:'en able to resist the popular feeling; and moreover, their doing so would not, in his opinion, have much forwarded the prospects of peace between this country and France.—(llear, hear.) It appeared, there tore, to him that the particular mode of procuring and maintaining peace was not a proper cum—(Hear, hear.) As to the desirableness of maintaining pace, they were, as he had said, all agreed; and connected as the nations of Europe now were, he dil not think that they were destined to see a revival of those wars which had been a disgrace to the humanity, and civilization, and Chris tianity which those nations professed.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) In looking back to ancient history, there was a time when one party sallied forth and made war upon another party, perhaps, not ten miles dis tant from him; and at a late period they had seen how villages had been sacked, and every atrocity com mitted in carrying out the same spirit; but those times had passed away, and those practices had now ceased, and if they looked to the peaco which had prevailed from 1815 to 1848. they would find that all trace of the wars et' the middle ages had been dispelled; and if that change had taken place, what was to prevent a still further change from being effected. The feeling was ;now abroad that men were bound to make every sacrifice for the sake of peace; and he believed that still greater pro gress would be made by uniting nation with nation in the bonds of good will and fellowship. He did not ex pect they would be rapid or immediate, and certainly what occurred last year gave them but little hope for some time to come; but, nevertheless, he did not see why the interests and the influence of the great Govern ments of Europe should not be used to decry war, and settle all disputes in a peaceable manner. lie was the more confirmed in that view when he looked at the two great wars, which had taken place, one with America, and another with France, as well as others which oc curred in the last century—all of which could'have been settled if there had been a proper temper 'exhibited by the different parties, without having a recourse to arms. With the opinions, therefore, of the Ho'n.iMember for the West Ridine he could not, in theirmain object, dis agree, except their applicability at that time, as well as the practicability of having all matters connected with nations settled by arbitration. But with regard to the general object of maintaining peace, of not deferri,g rights not absolutely necessary. so far he agreed in the spirit of the observations which the Hon. Member made. For the last 12 or 18 months they had reduced 6,000 men in their navy, and 10,000 in their army, so that they had shown every disposition to preserve the peace of nations. He believed for the purposes of their own defence, and to preserve their influence with foreign na tions, it would be much better not to adopt the motion of the Honourable Gentleman. Captain HARRIS said that since the repeal of the corn laws took place, Hon. Gentlemen opposite, of the Man chester school, whom ho believed to represent a Repub. iican party in that country, were anxious to reduce the naval and military establishments of the country. Did they, however, recollect the force of France at that moment, with a navy and army vastly superior to theirs? Mr. COBDEN replied, the Hon. Member who spoke last alluded to the force of the French Government, but he forgot the state of the French funds, or their embarrassed and almost bankrupt condition. No man of any sense would think that France would keep up an armament when in embarrassed circumstances. He believed that neither the Chartists, or the Quakers, or any other per son in the community, wished for a republic. But they did wish to prevent such on occurrence taking place. —(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the Member for London said they settle their differences of late by arbitration ; but that did not prevent expense ; for preparations were always made for war when a quarrel took place. There never was a time when that country was better prepared to go to war than the present, and it was at such a moment that pro ipno s t i h t i a o t n c s o f u e t p r y e ahc had d s hpouurlsdu pursued de the made. question religious of p epeace f 0 body e last twenty years with an increasing perseverance; they were at that moment joined by another body anxious to reduce the expenditure—(Hear. hear);—and when it was recollected that seven-eighths of that expenditure was for the purposes of war; the exertions of both par ties would be wanted to reduce them. He would, at a future period, move an address to her Majesty, to be sent to foreign Powers, praying them not only r.ot to aug ment their armies, but to effect a gradual decrease in their present actual force. The present was not a peace between nations, but an armed truce, which was far more formidable than anything which occurred in the middle , ages. The Noble Lord the Member for Tiverton, p"o -posed a course which deprived him of an opportun , ty of getting the sense of the House, for which he was little obliged, for he wanted the House to express an opinion, and should elicit it on a future occasion. The Hon. Gentleman appealed to the good sense of the country, and in their hands he was satisfied to leave it. The House then divided, when the numbers were— For the amendment Against it Majority -97 In answer to Mr. WYLD, Sir GEORGE GREY said that an inquiry was at that lmatronenott gthoeincgouountirnyt.o the condition of the colliery popu - Mr. 'OSBORNE then moved to nominate a Select Committee on Receivers, Courts of Chancery and Ex chequer (Ireland):—Mr. Osborne, Sir Robert Peel, Sir James Graham, Sir William Somerville, Mr. Solicitor- General, Mr.' Napier, Mr. Monsell, Mr. Bright, Mr. Henley, Mr. O'Flaherty, Mr. George Alex. Hamilton, Mr. M`Cullegh, Mr. Page Wood, Mr. Turner, and Mr. Tennent. • Colonel DUNNE suggested that the Hon. Member for Athlone (Mr.. Keogh) be appointed on the Committee instead of the . Hon. Member (Mr. Bright) as he under stood the affairs of Ireland better, and proposed that if his suggestion was not agreed to, he would call for a division for the adjournment of the question. Sir P. NUGENT seconded the motion. Mr. MONSELL thought that any delay at this period of the session would cause the Bill not to be carried this session. The House then divided, when there appeared— For the adjournment ... Against it ... Majority ... ... 58 ... -45 A desultory conversation then took place, in which Mr. M. O'Connell, Major Blackall, Mr. B. Osborne, Colonel Dunne, and Sir A. Brook took part, as to the appointment of Mr. Bright, which was ultimately agreed to. The Highways (Annual Returns) Bill was then read a third time. Sir J. HOBHOUSE introduced a Bill for the punish ment of desertion and mutiny of officers and soldiers in India. Agreed to, and recd a first time. Lord PALMERSTON introduced a Bill relative to marriages in foreign countries, which was also read a fir►t time. The House adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, June 12. The Earl of EGLINTON presented a petition from the Presbytery of Dunbar against the Partin mentAry Oaths Dill. THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY 'EVENING, JUNE 13, 1819. The Bishop of OXFORD presented several petitions praying for the adoption of measures tor the suppression of the slave trade. Lord STANLEY presented a petition from the ship owners of Quebec against the repeal of the navigation- laws. Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition from an old soldier named Parker complaining that he was entitled to a pension of Is. a day, whereas he had been reduced to a pension of lid. a-day. FRENCH EXPEDITION TO ROME. Lord BEAUMONT rose to ask the Government a question with respect to the expedition of the French against Rome. The French President, in his Message, had said that the foreign policy of France had been sup ported by the English Government; and bethought, there fore, he was justified in asking the Government whether they had been concerned in any way in approving of the expedition? The intentions professed by the French had been most contradictory. They had said it was for the protection of the Roman territories, and to prevent the invasion of foreign powers. Then they said it had been to restore the fugitive Pontiff. Their first act had been to attack Rome, which had been followed by the incursion of an Austrian force, and now Rome had been again attacked, and was deluged with blood, and so far from restoring the Pontiff, they had declared that Rome had an undoubted right to choose her own Government. To this the Triumvirate replied, that Rome had already chosen her Government. Through out the straightforward conduct of the Roman Triumvirate contrasted must favourably with that of the French, for the negotiations of M. de Lesseps were in direct contra diction with the conduct and assertions of General Oudi not. A Congress of the Catholic Powers had been held at Gaeta, at which a joint intervention had been agreed upon. The French, however, deceived Austria and Naples, and 'entered alone. The King of Naples invaded the Roman territory, but from nut finding himself supported by the French, and having no intention of fighting a battle alone, according to his usual plan took to rapid flight. Still the Romans could not understand this sort of brotherly protection which the French offered them, and which had not been paralleled since Cain and Abel. The consequence had been that Bologna had been taken by the Austrians. Ancona was at this moment bombarded by them, and the French were at Rome. Fr ance had declared that she would guarantee lay government to Rome if the Pontiff were restored, and Austria bad acknowledged the necessity of it; but now came out allocutions from the Pope, declaring that he never had and never would submit to lay government, so that •it appeared that all that had been done by the Powers at Gaeta had been to deceive the Pope and to deceive each other. The Earl of DEVON rose to order, and put it to the House if it was necessary that the Noble Lord should enter into the details. Lord BEAUMONT would confine himself to the question, whether any communication had taken place from the French Government on the subject of the ex pedition since it landed at Civita Vecchia, whether any advices had been given by the Government to France on the subject, or whether Government could explain the motives or objects of the French Govern ment in that expedition? The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that this Goe vernment had taken no part in the expedition. Before, it had sailed the Government was informed that such an expedition would sail to Civita Vecchia for the purpose of restoring tranquillity to Rome. To that the Govern ment did not object, but it offered no advice, and had kept completely aloof ; and so it continued to remain. This country had no right to interfere ; at the same time it had not beheld with indiffer ence the expulsion of the Sovereign Pontiff, but had expressed a wish for the restitution of the Pon tiff, by means of negotiation, at the same time giving a safeguard for the liberties of the people. He believed that expedition had been undertaken by France, on its own responsibility, without consulting with the other Powers. The Earl of ABERDEEN said that if the written cemmuuication from France were communicated to the House, it would perhaps throw some light on this subject, had no other communication taken place since. He could scarcely believe, considering the entente cordiale that was said to exist between the two Governments, that no further communication had taken place from France, explsnatory of the intentions of France in dis patching that expedition. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, that if he bad had notice et the question he should have been prepared to answer it more fully. Lord BROUGHAM considered that his Noble Friend could never have considered that an expedition to restore order was to stop at Civita Vecchia. A NOBLE LORD—Ancona. Lord BROUGHAM—Ancona was a perfectly different case. In allusion to the French President's Message, he would say, whoever drew it up, that it was a model of judicious explanation, and of equally judicious conceal ment.—(Hear, hear,) He was delighted in that Message to see the passage relating to England; and he concluded from that tnat England bad approved of all that France had done, but it appeared from these explanations that that meaning could not be attached to that passage. The Earl of ELLENBOROUG El wished to know whether the communication regarding the sailing of the expedition was simply acknowedged, or whether it was stated that her Majesty's Government did not object to the departure of the expedition. There was one ob servation which bad fallen from the Noble Marquis, in reference to which he begged permission to say a few words. As he understood the Noble Marquis, he said that this country was differently situated, acd had not the same interest in this question that the Catholic countries of Europe had. Now be (the Earl of Ellenbo rough) could not altogether agree in that opinion. It was quite true that we were nut a Catholic state, and might not, therefore, feel that personal interest in the position of the Pope which was felt by Catholic powers; but we had 8,000,000 of Roman Catholic fellow-subjects, and it was as much an object of interest to us as it could be to any one of the Catholic powers of Europe, that the Pope should be in a position of independence—that he should not be so situated as to to be dependent upon the bounty or upon the power of any one, or of any com bination of the powers of Europe. That was surely of as deep an interest to us as it could be to either Austria or Naples. The question was not whether the Pope, as the sovereign of Rome, should or should not reside and rule there; but whether the person who happened to be at the head of the Roman Catholic religion should main tain a position of independence; and it appeared to him (the Earl of Ellenborough) to be a matter of the deepest importance that he should meintain that independence. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE need not say in that Hotise that they had no spiritual connexion with the Pope. In that House it was well known that they had always disclaimed such a connexion, and not only die claimed it, but avowed an intention never to establish it. —(Hear, hear.) He was, therefore, fully justified in stating, in the precise words he htsel used, that in one important aspect, namely, the religious aspect, we had not the same interest that was felt by other countries in the question. But he quite admitted that we had very great interest of a political nature; and it was in refer. ence to that interest of a political nature that he stated that the views entertained by her Majesty's Govern ment were, that it was most desirable that the Pope should be restored to the possession of his power at Borne, resuming that power, however, upon conditions, which would be likely to ensure its continu ance, and which would meet with the approbation and concurrence of his subjects ; and that, at the same time, this object might best be promoted by negotiation, and by avoiding, if possible, having recourse to arms.—(Hear.) With regard to the pro duction of papers, had he been aware that this conversa tion was to have come on, he should have been glad of the opportunity to state the exact terms of the commu nication which had been received from the French Go vernment. But when the Noble Earl went further, and asked if he would produce all that had passed upon the subject, he must say that he was not prepared to do so Without first institutites, an examination of them. The Duke of BEAUFORT presented several peti tions from Derby and other places in favour of the Bill for the protection of women; also a petition agreed to at the county meeting, held at Gloucester on Saturday last, complaining of agricultural distress, and praying relief. The Earl of CARLISLE presented petitions from Gloucester, York, Cardigan, Durham, and other places, in favour of the Commons' Inclosure Bill. Earl NELSON presented a petition against the Par liamentary Oaths Bill from a place in S om ersetshiro. Oa the motion of Lord CAMPBELL, the Select Committee on the Incumbered Estates Bill was nomi nated. THE REPEAL OF THE NAVIGATION-LAWS. On the order of the day for the third reading of this Bill being read, The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said he had, in the course of a not very short Parliamentary life, been fated to see many measures injurious to the interests of -the country proposed and carried, but never had it been his duty to oppose one which he believed more fraught with danger to the very existence of the country, and on that account he must, even at this last stage of the Bill, with no hope of defeating it, offer his opposition to the repeal of the navigation-laws. He would not go into the general argument on the Bill, but would merely make a few suggestions which ought to be adopted. It was but just and fair that ship building should be relieved by drawback upon the duty on timber and other articles used in that business, and also that the masters and mates of merchant ships should be subjected to exami nation, and in case of the loss of a ship that the officers and crew should be subjected to trial, just as under similar circumstances officers in the navy were tried by a court martial, and when they were found incompetent or ne glectful, that they should be punished by imprisonment, the insurance vitiated, and the owner of the vessel sub jected to a pecuniary fine for having employed such in competent persons to manage his vessel. Last session a Bill had been introduced to makeprov t i h si e o m n f o o n r worn-out seamen seamen of the merchant serv i c e, an d it was desirable that funds should b e found for that purpose,. for his part he would have no objections' to place footing as the pensioners at Greenwich Hospital. There was another measure which he wished strongly to recom mend to the Government, that there should be a re registration of the merchant ships. In 1847 it -was stated that there was a tutelage of 3,200,000 in that service. He doubt e d th e accuracy of that statement, and he found in that year there were at sea 2,400,000 tons, of which there was an amount of 200,000 tonnage absent from the country for one year. The result of his investigation was, that they had not at that time a tonnage of 3,200,000, but a tonnage of 2,600,000. The error arose from ships that remaining on the register which were worn out and de ashipping stroyed. The Government should look to this, and take means to correct this error. It statedpwassengr s,they would e a great amount o f navigation ton n ag a e s . increase had taken place in the carriage of goods; i pp ibutned in our g when they considered that the ste employed w find as thatririot t the commensuratei quantity n th e transport o i w goodsit oh theas aa ramn was He did not think the merchant shipping was over manned, and lie was sure shipowners would not consult their real interests in diminishing the number of their mon for the sake of economy. Time was the greatest economy in c qnmerce, and they should seek, by making these ships effective, to accomplish short passages. That was the true and best economy. It was known that the Americans had introduced machinery on board their ships to save labour, which, no doubt, was useful ; but machinery could not enable them to reef topsails in a gale of wind. The best thing was to make expert seamen, and to equip their ships in a way that would enable them to make quick voyages. He knew it was difficult to esta blish strict discipline in these ships, but he thought that temperance should be established, not only in the forecastle, but in the cabin. He did not mean ab stinence, because spirits could not be dispensed with in severe weather. The Sunday ought also to be made a day of rest, and employed in reading, and of all things, ship owners ought to endeavour to take the men out of the hands of crimps; and Sailors' Homes should also be established for their comfort, when they were on shore. It was not his intention to trespass on their Lordships. He thought it right to state what measures the Government ought to introduce. This countiy had obtained the su premacy of the sea from men who did not refuse to pay the price of that supremacy, and they ought not to sell that importance for a mess of pottage. He dismissed the Bill with contempt, for the principles upon which it was based. He dismissed it with disgust, not without appre hensions of the consequences that may result from it. Let the Government do what it might, and let the ship owners do what they might, this Bill would impair the mercantile marine, and thereby endanger the supremacy of the naval forces of the country. Earl GRANVILLE said he would not enter into the question whether votes had been given on this subject against the conviction of any of their Lordships. He did believe that such was the case on either side of the House. He cordially concurred in what had fallen from the Noble Earl, and he' hoped it would go forth to the country, and that the shipowners would follow the advice his Noble Friend had given them. First, with regard to the remission of the duty on timber, suggested by the Noble Earl, he bad himself adverted to that sub ject on a former occasion; but a Noble Duke sitting near his Noble Friend said he could not hear of such a thing. Such a remission would be considered unjust by miners and other parties who used timber. With regard to a new registration, he could not see any great objection to that; and with regard to the Merchant Seamen's Fund, referred to by the Noble Earl, a measure had been introduced last session founded on the suggestions of the Noble Earl, but it met with such opposition from the shipping interest, that it was found impossible to carry it in the form it was brought forward. With regard to the discipline on board merchant ships, it was the intention of the Government to introduce a measure upon that subject, which, he hoped, would effect a great improvement. The benefit of temperance could not be overrated, and the result of reading and education on board those ships would be attended with the same effects as on shore, and would be followed with good results. The Earl of WINCHILSEA said this was a measure of free trade carried on to a reckless extent. They were now going to abandon the supremacy they had obtained on the seas, and would bring ruin on the country. Earl TALBOT said he thought the suggestions of his Noble Friend (Lord Ellenborough) ought to be adopted by the Government. He objected to the Bill, as being carried against the feelings of those most interested in the shipping of the country. He was anxious to disen gage himself from any concurrence in it, and threw the whole responsibility on the Government. Lord STANLEY said if he thought any arguments he could use would induce their Lordships to retrace their steps, no labour would deter him from urging them on their consideration, but he must frankly express that he had no new arguments to bring forward beyond those he had already urged against the Bill. Nor even if he had, could he hope to shake the determination of that House on the third reading, and his arguments would, there fore, be necessarily wasted, inasmuch as the votes given already decided the question, and he should, therefore, abstain from putting their Lordships to the trouble of repeating any additional observations, as he could not possibly anticipate any other result to follow than that which had hitherto taken place. He should, therefore, leave to her Majesty's Government the full and entire responsibility of the fatal consequences to the country which he feared at no distant period would result from this measure; he should leave on them the full and ex clusive responsibility of introducing it, and should justify himself by saying not content to the third reading of the Bill, and place on their Lordships' journals the record of the grounds on which he thought that this third reading ought not to take place. Lord BROUGHAM observed that after the eloquent, nervous, and spirit-stirring speech of his Noble Friend near him, who opened the debate, ho did not feel it necessary to trouble their Lordships with many obser vations, and he was glad to find his Noble Friend, the Noble Earl opposite (Lord Granville) set a right value on that part of his Noble Friend's speech, which con sisted not in commentaries on the Bill, but suggestions of great importance to its well-working. Ile (Lord Brougham) hoped the attention of the Government would be directed to these suggestions, for if such a course be followed, great good must ultimately arise. He was bound to say also, that looking round for an ex pl illation of the extraordinary phenomena which had taken place in the passing of the 8,11, though by a narrow majority, even including those who decided without hearing the arguments brought forward at all, including those who were absent from the arguments, still the majority by which it was carried amounted only to ten. There was no doubr, a small increase of that majority in the Committee when those present could alone vote. Great efforts had been made, on which he commented on a former occasion; they were honoured by the pre sence of diplomatic functionaries, stationed in different parts of Europe, whose duties he conceived at that period were more important at their respective Courts to which they were accredited, and yet they left their respective posts at those critical emergencies, in order to hasten over and vote for a question which he hoped would not affect their foreign policy. All these diplo matic functionaries coming, including his Noble Friend from Paris, at a time when no such emergency existed since 1793, enabled the Government to increase their ma jority, by such means they were enabled to pals the Bill. There was, however, another cause, inde pendent of diplomatic interference, and that was the well known fact, that men whose true patriotism and talent were above all personal and paltry feelings—men whom he could not help thinking took a mistaken view of the facts, as to the present position of public affairs in the country, gave the measure their support, from a dread of the consequences which might ensue. They thought the throwing out the Bill would throw out the Government; that appeal would be made to the country, by dissolv ing the Parliament; that it would lead to a contention of Free-traders and Protectionists; set class against class, and that-was a crisis their patriotism would not allow them to consent to. That was he believed a fair solution of what bad been done. If he had been of their opinion, he should be a humble follower in their course, but he disputed the fact; he believed no such war would take place, and that if it did it must have been in 1847. — (Hear, hear.) But he had it from the highest authority on both sides, that instead of such a war as had been apprehended, the whole of those different classes, com mercial and agricultural, were entirely favourable to the rejection of the Bill. He lived through many of those storms in 1808, and latterly in the free trade controversy of 1846, when he joined the present Ministers of the country, then in opposition; and he must admit he did not expect so soon to see so con siderable a reaction as was then taking place among many h c im onn li e v c e te t d he w y ith free trade. would see those persons who were now aga ins t corn • law re p eal Noble him Friends e n questions near who as much repeaters in two years' time as they we re in his left 1846. There was a reaction , no doubt , but i t was against the present Bill, and therefore he had no doubt whatever that a great mistake was committed by those who acfed from those motives to which he had already referred. It was unnecessary to take up any more of their Lordships' time, and he should therefore content himself by recording his protest against the measure. The Marquis of L AINTSDOW NE hardly knew whether he was justified in offering for their Lordships' consi deration even a very few words, because his Noble Friend near him, although confining himself strictly to an explanation, gave such a one as he hoped was satis factory to the Noble Earl opposite, and because he felt further, that the observations of those Noble Lords who had taken a part in the conversation were not of a nature to require a detailed reply .from him. Ile (the Marquis of Lansdowne) was not prepared to say, that though the Noble Earl opposite protested against the third reading of the Bill, he was justified in in viting the House into something like an inquiry into the motives of the majority of their Lordships who voted; he was not prepared to admit that it was a convenient, or a Parliamentary practice, to inquire into the opinions of their Lordships' House, but to collect those opinions from their Lordships' votes, and from nothing else. If they went beyond that, there was no degree of persona lity or misrepresentation, there was no interference y m us thatt of have he e v n e no the effect never olffi listened nt extra with with the sacred and indefeasible right pos o ,fh f iHo v bo o suh t es i ire n v g af , rtoi which would not be brOught into their debates, and therefore he condemned in the strongest manner the danger of the on that occasion. If the Bill be likely to be a tt e nd e d such a p n r t a s c u t isceed. and n S d u chheof effect, shouldce o t, u r h s e e s knewa a d twoor i ri v gdst diverting rnmilaii extraordinaryernt little ea t the of argument, debatesoarproduceg um e o n f t their aonp di s L i 000nrmsdusohcf a h i far ity s i t g o h u t n b d 3 - E se ar w l o h p o po w s e ite re , h a o l w wa s regarded as of Conservative opinions. They i a n s g ke n d at b u y re th fr e gin Nob th le o had even heard it fit that those who had as good a right as any Members of that House, namely, the members of the. Right Reverend • Bench, to take their seats, might for the future be admitted to their deliberations. In another quarter surprise is expressed that because Noble Peers were engaged in diplomacy, they had no right in ex pressing an opinion. If they were brought to vote in that way, instances might be found to show that a simi lar course was often pursued by Noble Lords opposite. He (the Marquis of Lansdowne) gave the most distinct denial to the political motives with which they w ere charged by the Noble Earl, that they were about to bar . . pate it. What they contended for wahs, found n c lst eihnchoemrt: Bi ter the inheritance left them by their ancestor?, or_ Ai issi tance was in danger—that althoug _ the wants of the age. and that if they extended com merce the navy; if they allowedcom they strengthene d and diminish the com merce to diminish they would weaken ientiously believed that whatever mervial principles, it must be extended in proportion to navy also. be to increase the commerce and general effect mus t Withregard to sa ilo rs, • ' of the country. shipping employed in British or foreign ships, they they were _ f .1. would be always found an un al mg source to the navy effect the AciTtemeaYlithscave in particular circumstances, its and army of this country, and produce heroes, such as those who heretofore, and would hereafter be found de morning received an account, in which t h e gratifying fact fending the inter ests of this countr y . He had that was stated, that a ship of 500 very tons burthen sold for a much higher price, now that! opinion an enemy upon this subject, they would raise a the trade was denuded of all monopoly. He believed great obstacle in the progress of their efforts to suppress that was one of the many proofs which would gradually the slave trade by negotiation and remonstrance; but it chase away those f-ars created by debates which had could not be believed that the exclusion would be con taken place in that House, for British ships, built by conducive to the suppression of the slave-trade. British shipbuilders, and,manned by superior men, would The Bishop of OXFORD replied, and their Lordships for ever command the supremacy of the , seas over the divided, when there_ appeared— nations of Europe. Content ...... The Bishop of OXFORD, upon the motion being put, Non-content — -23 said he should not have troubled their ;Lordships with Majority —l4 any remarks upon this Bill if he regarded it merely as a The Bill was then passed, and their Lordships ad commercial or maritime measure. But it seemed to him journed. to touch upon moral considerations of a most serious kind. The amendment which he had to propose would explain in what way it touched moral considerations. The ground upon Which he was justified in treating this as a moral question was that the slave trade was an in jury to humanity, and that this country should use its influence and strength to put down this accursed trade. —(Hear, hear.) It was upoa this ground that they esta blished a fleet for the suppression on the African coast, and entered into treaties for the same purpose.—(Hear, hear.) It was not true that that was done for commer cial purposes, but to serve a righteous object. They must therefore deal with the subject he had in view upon moral principles only. He would probably be told that this was a commercial question, and to act as he would suggest would be followed by inconvenience and loss, but that was no answer. The object he had to pursue was the cause of right, and should be treated as he would propose. Now he had to show to their Lord ships that, without the clause he intended to propose, this measure would increase the slave trade. It was stated that this measure would quicken trade generally. The traffic he alluded to would be augmented. That country abounded in the prodigal gifts of Heaven, and all it wanted was labour to supply, which it went upon the principle of working out their labour, which had to be renewed every year to produce the raw material. That labour was only - to be furnished by the African slave, and as this Bill would have the tendency of quickening trade, and Consequently the necessity for the supply of the raw material would increase and in exact proportion as it did, that a direct stimulus would be' given to the African trade, and in, the same pro portion they would leieen the inducements of the Bra zilians to do away with this 'trade, which by treaties they were bound to do. But they did not enforce the treaties by arms because the Government had not the power to enforce its commands. Was it not, therefore, much more imperative upon them to 'aid the Government by every moral means in their power? At present in Brazil a few slave-traders in Rio were paramount. These traders bribed the members of the Assembly, and to such an extent was influence carried, that no hope could be entertained of any effort on their part to abolish the slave trade. Now nothing could more strengthen the desire of this country _to suppress this traffic than the adoption of the amendment he had to propose. If they persisted in their present course he feared that the time was not far distant when this country would once more again directly participate in the pollution of the slave trade.— (Hear, hear.) The course of trade was from this country to Rio, and there the selection of articles was made for the slave trade. The vessels bringing sugar here would on their return • touch • on the African coast, and-having conveyed their living cargo to Brazil, would again return to England with the produce of their labour, and so they would once more be in directly engaged in the African slave trade, the most polluting and abominable of all trades. That was strong ground, but he might appeal to theta on higher and nobler motives. Many of those present bore here ditary honours, derived from those who were willing to peril everything for a cause which 'they deemed the most sacred on earth. It was a false and hollow promise that this would increase the national wealth if it stained the national honour. Commercial advantage should not be sought at the expense of the sacred cause of freedoin and religion. They were building this fair edifice of maritime advantages upon a smouldering volcano, for in process of probably a very short time the slaves might combine against their masters, and violence and brutality would attend the convulsive struggle, in which all hopes of commercial benefit must perish. The Brazilian people hated we because they looked upon us as increasing the price of the slave to serve our own avaricious pur poses, and from the course we had pursued as not being really in earnest in the object we proposed to accomplish. With a view to the removal of this impression, and for the reasons he had given he begged to propose the following amendment:—" And whereas it is expedient that the privileges proposed to be given to foreign ships by this Act -should not be ex ten4ed to the ships of nations actively engaged in the African slave trade, nor to foreign ships carrying the exports of such nations ; be it enacted, that the said privileges shall not extend to the ships of Spain, or to foreign ships exporting the produce of the West Indian colonies of Spain, or to the ships of or to foreign ships ex porting the produce of Brazil, until such time as her Majesty shall have declared, by orders in council, that the Governments of Spain and Brazil have respectively given to her Majesty full satisfaction as to the fulfilment of the treaties into which they have or shall have entered with her Majesty for the suppression of the African slave trade; but that until such time the aforesaid Acts, de clared by this Act to be repealed, shall remain and be of full force and effect as regards such countries, any such repeal as aforesaid notwithstanding." Lord HOWDEN said that, despite the eloquence of his Right Rev. Friend, in depreciation of what he called the mere commercial principle, he would confine his ob servations entirely to that part of the question, and deal with it as one of facts and figures. Although he might take it from that high ground on which the Right Rev. Prelate had so felicitously placed it, yet by that mode of treating it. the practical effect of the amendment would be more clearly discerned. The Right Rev. Prelate ac knowledged, with great frankness, the importance of our commerce, but he did not see any part of his speech in which that importance was practically admitted. There was at this moment no treaty between England and Brazil. This state of things gave to us a power of deal ing with Brazil as we might think fit, but it gave the same power to Brazil also. In fact, there was at this time in existence a decree, though not formally put in operation, by which the vessels of nations that did not put Brazilian ships upon a footing of (quality were to be charged with a differential duty of one-third more than the usual charges. This would show not only the immediate burden to which our ships would be subject, but at the same time Brazil could not be charged with acting in a vindictive spirit, because the date of the decree was October, 1847, and its operation had been merely suspended from time to time In order to give foreign nations time to enter into friendly arrangements. But if in the interim we, having materially altered our navigation-laws, were to enforce unfavourable terms upon Brazilian ships, the consequence would be an increase of one-third of all the charges to which ships are liable, independent of retalia tory duties on the goods landed. This would lead to a similar policy on our part, and ultimately to the sus pension of all commercial intercourse with Brazil. That would actually lead to the object aimed at by the Right Rev. Prelate; but when the fact that the exports to Brazil from this country were 3,000,0001., he thought it would be considered that an amendment which would injure, if not destroy, a trade like that, ought to be carefully considered.—(Hear, hear.) The imports of pure Brazilian produce into this country were much smaller than our export trade, being about 600,0001. Besides this, the amendment, if passed, would very likely not touch the trade immediately aimed at. He had no doubt that some Noble Lords might vote for the amend ment, on the ground that it might disarrange the influx of foreign vessels, and thus preserve the trade to our own ships; but he believed that the Right Rev. Prelate acted upon no such principle.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He believed that he was, sincerely anxious to put down the slave trade, and therefore he hoped the Right Rev. Prelate would pause, when he assured him that so long as Brazilian produce was so much required in all parts of the world, any such proposal as that submitted would not diminith it by one bag of cotton or one hogshead of sugar.—(Hear, hear.) He could assure their Lordships that the world was very slow to acknowledge our phi lanthropy in the matter of the slave trade, and if we passed such a measure it would materially increase the impression that interest, and not benevolence, was our actuating motive.—(Hear, hear.) In short, the proposal, if carried, would place one million tons of British ship ping under greatly increased burdens; and he asked if the Right Rev. Prelate was prepared to bring in a Bill to deprive the British shipowner and merchant from enjoying the privilege of trading to Brazil? Such a measure, if introduced, would produce general opposi tion, and yet in his conscience he believed that no thing short of it could effect the object aimed at by the Right Rev. Prelate. The repression of the slave trade was, however, not to be effected by legislation. The habits and feelings of mankind, either national or con ventional, were so strong, that unless there was a general ' movement against that trade, actuated by feelings al most amounting to fanaticism, it could not be put down. The proposal would not in reality affect the slave trade, but merely displace some other part of the traffic at pre-' seat existing.—(Hear, hear.) He asked, therefore, bow, without actual force, the growth and exportation of Bra zilian produce could .be prevented? This amendment was, in fact, an intervention in the internal affairs of another nation—part of a system which he deeply de plored, and which had already raised up numerous enemies to this country. Our energy and trade were so great and so widely extended—our arms so long and our . fingers fingers so active—we interfered so gene r a ll y in the afforas of mankind,That any such interference iss that pwrop.oeseof would, in the end, damage i nfinitel y more tbe ad this country than that of the countries we thus meddled with. He could not thin k thai it was the i n t e ntion of the . House to damage this m easure b y adop t ing amendments that would injure it , and be ho p ed they would not accept this amendment. The Earl of WARWICK said he thought the adop tion of this amend ment would nullify what they had already done with re g ard to the navigation-laws, and on that ground he could not support it. Lord DENMAN said he was glad the speech of his Right Rev. Friend had been made, and that it had been answered. That speech convinced him that the amend ment grew out of this Bill, and therefore he should sup port it. He was satisfied the slave trade had been so far repressed as to afford evidence that it could be sup pressed. When the world believed that the natious which had united for the suppression of this trade were sincere, it would be ea,ily suppressed. He could not believe that the principles of morality would not prevail is p.itting en end to this wicked traffic. They spoke " solidulity" of nations but was not Africa within that fraternity ?—(Hear.) In this question he only saw two parties, the slave-trader and the miserable slave, who was the victim of this nefarious traffic. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said he had nothing to add to the arguments used by the Noble Lord (Lord Howden), who brought so much information on the sub ject, which he so ably interwove into his argument. If they abandoned their commerce they would lose their influence, and recede from the position they attained by commerce. They were called upon to do that exclu sively upon religious grounds, by refusing to deal with MUltrism who .retiguod Wog. If they mute public PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS. From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commotes.l TUESDAY, JUNE 12. ARBITRATION. Motion made, and Question proposed, " That an humble Address be presented to her Majesty, praying that sbe will be graciously pleased to direct her principal Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to enter into communication with Foreign Powers, inviting them to concur in Treaties, bind ing the respective parties, in the event of any future misun derstanding, which cannot be arranged by amicable negotia tion, to refer the matter in dispute to the decision of Arbi trators :"—Previous Question put, " That that Question be now put." The Hou-e divided:— MINORITY—AYES, 79. Aglionby, H. Harris, Richard Pigott, Francis Alcock, Thomas Hastie, Alexander Pilkington, James Anderson, Arthur Headlam, Thomas Pryse, Pryse Armstrong, It. B. Henry, Alexander Reynolds, John BasS, M. T. Heywood, James Ricardo, Osman Berkeley. C. L. G. Ileyworth, L. Robartes, T. J. A. Blewitt,yeginald Hindley, Charles Roebuck, J A. BouVerie, E. P. Hobhouse, T. B. Scholetield, William Bright, John llorsman, E. Sidney, Alderman BrOklehurst, John Hume, Joseph Smith, John B. Brotherton, J. Ker„Richard Spearman, 11. J. Brown, W. Kershaw, James Strickland, Slr G. - Banbury, Edward .King, P. J. ThoMpson, Colonel Clay, James Lushington, C. - Thompson, George Cowan, Charles M'Cullagh,,W. T. Thornely, T. Croivder, R. S. Marshall, J. G. Trelawny, J. S. lo'yncourt.C. T. Matheson, Colonel Villiers, Charles Duncan, George Moffatt, George • Walmsley, Sir J. M Moody, C. A. `'W 'awn, John .. ... , - awn, J. T. P. Evans, Sir De Lacy • Morrig, David • Westheed,'J. P. Fag - au, William O'Brien, J. Willcox, Brodie Fat, W. J. O'Connell, John Williams. John Gibaon, Thomas M.. O'Connor, Feargus Wyld, James Glyb, G. C. Osborne, Ralph Oreinall, G. Pearson, Charles TELLERS. GreOne, John Pechell, Captain Cobden, R. Grenfell, C. Pascoe Perfect, Robert E w art, William 1 Grosvenor, Lord It. Peto, Samuel M. • MAJORITY-NOES, 176. Abciy, Thomas N. Ferguson, Sir R. C . Newdegate, C. N. Aclitnd, Sir T. Filmer, Sir E. Newport, Vint. A repdall, Captaid- Fitzpatrick, J. W. Nicholl, J. Arundel, Earl of Forster, M. Nugent, Sir Percy Bagshaw, John Freestun, Colonel O'Connell, Maurice Baltlock, E. H. Frewen, C. H. O'Flaherty, Anthony Bating, Sir F. T. Galway, Viscount Ogle, S. C. Baring, Thomas Goddard, A. L. Owen, Sir J. Bafringfon, - Visconnt Godson, R. Paget, Lord Al Bellew, R. M. Gooch, E. S. Paget, Lord Clarence Bennet, Philip Gore, W. R. 0. Palmerston, Yisceunt Bei!tinck, Lord H. Granby, Marquis of Parker, John Beresford, William Greene Thomas Patten, J.IW. BerOteley, Captain Grey, Sir George Philips, Sir G. R. Blake. Martin J. Grey, R. W. Pugh, David - Bowles, Admiral Grosvenor, Earl Raphael, Alexander Boyle, Colonel Guernsey, Lord Renton, John C. Brackley, Viscount Guest, Sir John Rich, Henry Bramston, T• W. Haggitt, F..lt. Richards.lltichard Brand, Thomas Hale, R. B. Romilly, Sir John Britco, M. Hallyburton, Lord Rushout. Captain Brooke, Sir Arthur ' lial§ey, T. P. Russell, Lord. John Bruce, C. L. C. Marris, Captain ' Russell, F. C. H. Bulkeley, Sir R. B. _. Ilastie, Archibald Rutherfurd, A. Banbury, W. Hawes, Benjamin St. George, Chris. Burke, Sir T. J. Hay, Lord J. Sanders, Joseph Buxton, Sir E. Hayter, W. G. Shane, K. D. Campbell, W. F. Heathcoat, John Shell, R. L. Carew, W. P. Heathcote, G. J. Shelburne, Earl of Cagier, J. B. Heneage, G. H. Simeon, John Cavendish, C. C. Heneage, E. Slaney, Robert A. Chartens, Francis Henley, J. W. Smith, J. A. Chllders, J. W. Hervey, Lord A. Somerville, Sir W. Christy, Samuel Hill, LorkE. Stansfleld, W. R. O. Cliye, It. H. Hobhouse, Sir John Stuart, Lord J. Clive, H. B. Hodges, T. L. Sutton, Ii 31 Cobbold, John C. Hollond, Robert Talbot, C. R. Cocks, Thomas S. Hope, A. Tancred, H. W. Coles, H. R. Howard, Lord E. Taylor, T. E. Col i vile, C. R. Howard, CW. G. Wilson, E. K. Compton, 11. C. Inglis,-Sir R. 11. 1 hicknesse, R. A. Corry, ii. Jervis, Sir John Thompson, Alderman Cowper, WF. Keppol, George T. Tollemache, John Craig, W. G. Knox, Colonel Trollope, Sir J. Dalrymple, Captain Labouchere, Henry Turner, G. J. DitNieS, D. A. S. Lascelles, W. S. Tyrell, Sir J. Denison, W. J. Lemon, Sir C. Urquhart, David Denison, J. E. Lennox, Lord HG. Vane, Lord H. Dodd, George Lewis, Sir T. Vesey, Hon. T. Drumlanrig, Vls. Lewis, George C: Vivian, J. E. Dancuft, John M'Gregor, oJhn Watkins, Colonel Dundas, Admiral '' Mahon, Viscount Williamson, Sir 11. Dundas' Sir D. Maitland, Thomas Wilson, James Ddnne, F. P. Martin, C.:SY. Wood, Sir Charles Du Pre, C G. Manic, Fox Worcester, Marquis Ebrington, Viscount Milnes, R. M. Wyvill, M. Euston, Earl Moore, G. H. Kvalls, William Mostyn, E. 3f. TELLERS. Farnham, E. Mulgrave, Earl Tufnell, Henry Ferrer, James Mailings, J. R. Hill, Lord Marcus TO THE SECRETARY OF THE METROPOLITAN REFORM ASSOCIATION. SIR, —On Monday the 11th, the Secretary for Fo reign AffAirs, in moderate but indubitable terms repu diated the intimation conveyed in the French Presi dent's Address, that England had bf en a consenting party to the the lamentable events at Rome. If it was not excused by folly, there would be something intensely wicked in this attempt in France to involve the honour of Great Britain in the foulest transaction of modern times. Let France bear her own burden, and heaven be thanked that Englishmen are unscathed. There is something peculiarly unfortunate in this attempt to mi,represent the triendly bearing ot Greet Britain; the country, like the individual, which indulges in buck practices, can have no fritnds after warth. The case is like that of a man, to whom You have been civil, or perhaps friendly; and the next thing you hear ot him, ►s that he has been giving out that you are his partner in business, and were concerned with him in his last fraud. In a general view, the consequences are important. After what has happened at Rome, Frenchmen must stand throughout the Continent in precisely the position in which they stood in Spain after the treacherous occu pation of Madrid by the first Napoleon. hatred, mixed with pity for the ticcessiy which made many good men bow to it, will be the feeling of all of Europe which is not Absolutist. Don't trust France; France comes only to spiry France comes only to occupy; France 'has no politics ' but what she has learned from the Algerines; no principles but those of the barbarian and the slave. Such are the feelings she has laid up for herself in store. How the people of France, intelligent and brave, can ever have submitted to be the instruments of such a mere fraud as their Government calling itself Republi can, is only to be accounted for on one ground. The mistake of mixing up the most execrably bad political economy with the demand for free institutions, is what has marred all. France and Europe might have been free, if Socialists and Communists could have abstained from perplexing the question with a demand for the abolition of property, or what their enemies were able to represent as such. In all this it is happy to see that the English Govern ment has taken the great and the honourable part. Weighty as was the temptation to men avowedly of aristocratic origin, to join in the hue and cry against the progress of liberal institutions on the continent, they have not dune it; but on the contrary have recorded, with less success than was deserved, their consciousness ut their country's interest in the advance. It is true yet, as in times past, that things can be done in Eng land which can be looked for nowhere else. On the same evening the Parliamentary Oaths Bill was read a third time and passed, by 272 _against 206. • The cheers of the opponents appearid to indicate, that they thought the division not au good as it might have been. The people of Great Britain must feel more of the ecclesiastical cudgel, before they have an efficient com• miseration for those on whom its blows fall heaviest. On Tuesday the Member for the West Riding brought forward his motion for Arbitration Treaties. After a lucid introduction by the mover, the opposition com menced by simulated scorn from the Conservative benches, but with results which only illustrated the operatic apophthegm, that " where the judgment's weak, the pr. judice is strong." The Secretary for Foreign Affairs met the motion with the Previous Ques tion. A remarkable difference was discernible between the tone of his commencement and his conclu sion ; whether accidental or derived from per ception of the feeling of the House, it was not easy to determine. What he said, amounted to admitting, that he fully approved the principle, but did not think this the time ; the standard expression of a diluted hostility. The Prime Minister advanced an extraordinary reason against the practice of arbitration. He said a case might occur, when a foreign nation might break its engagements with you, and the existence of an appeal to arbitration might make it more difficult for you to submit to the breach. He said this, and gave the in stance of the French Government in respect of its en gagement to make no permanent conquest in 'Algiers. Necessity acquaints men with strange arguments, as well as strange bedfellows. The Previous Question was finally carried in the nega tive by 176 against 79. The principle will take no damage. I am, Sir, your obedient servant, AN OLD REFORMER. London, June 13, 1849. THE FISHMONGERS AND POULTERERS' BENEVO. LENT INSTITUTION.—The members and friends of this institution celebrated its thirteenth anniversary last even.- ing, by partaking of an excellent dinner at the London Coffee-house, Ludgate-hill, and by taking increased means to augment its funds and promote its benevolent objects. W. Forbes Stuart, Esq., discharged the duties of the chair on the occasion. After the usual loyal toasts, the chairman, in proposing " Success to the In stitution," alluded to the circumstance that during the past year two members of families who bad been amongst the most liberal of its supporters, had unexpectedly be come recipients of its benefactions. During the evening reference was also made Co the new asylum, founded by the institution at Wood-green, between Tottenham and Hornsey, and the warmest hopes expressed that the trade would, by increased contributions, enable the society to find adequate funds for the support of the inmates. The subscripiions and donations for the evening amounted to a very handsome sum, and included the sums id twenty guineas from the chairman, ten guineas from Wolverley Attwood, Eq., president, of the institution; ten guineas from John Grove, E,q ; and six guineas from the jour neymen in the employ of Air. William Hunter. Is the course of the evening allusion was made to the lasts mentioned contribution, and confident hopes e x p r essed that the journ e ym e n convected with the two trades would extensively imitate the example that it furnished. The vocal arrangements for the evening included various songs and glees by Messrs. Young, Turner, Spoils, Bruton, and Lawler. Altogether a very pleasant evening was passed, and the result of the festival was satisfactory to its supporters. Di s p a t c h e s were received yesterday at the Colonial office from the Governor of the North American provinces.