The Sun. — London, England, 1815-04-20 00:00:00

)i,l otleetlo prauctlon of the accounts the present Session, or - only oppose their pro idoetion on that day If be meant the latter, be '(Mr. P.) saw no objection to his taking the day inost agreeable to himself. He agreed that, under the. preqe“d s‘stetn, it would not be just to , alter the accounts which were ordered to be kept at the :Bank o f England ; and his Hon. Friend who had made the ► .oiion had no desire of interfering With the Bank. in the advaotages secured to thent by Act of Piirlianient, The Right Hon. Gentleman bad said, that the accounts were very Voluthin ons, and that it would occapy, a great length ' time to consider bow to make arrangements ad . Vantageotts to the public : but for those very reasons, it was necessary that the consideration of the subject shot& not be delayed. The Right Honourable Gentlethan had not stated that any. public inepnvenience, or any' inconveOienee to the Bank, would arise from itiutediate ittvesti gation.. The Ac't of Parliament would expire on the sth of April next ; and he (Mr. P.) left it to the House t , consider, bow they would answer to the country for refusing to institute inpiry as early as possible. Mr. IERNEY thought that •it would be proper for.some of the GentlentetCpresent, belonging to the Bank, to State their objections to his Hon. Friend's motion. . MAavATT was convinced the papers Would show that an undue _consideration had been paid by the public to the Bank for the business which was done. Private Bankers made no charge, and were satisfied With the benefit which they derived froin the money beitigplaced in their hands. Even with that the Bank would be remunerated. The profits of the Tellers of the Exchequer had been found to encrease etiorniously with the augmenta tion of the public expenditure, and hail been pro . perly curtailed. The Bank stood exactly. in the same .situation, and the same remedy should be applied, If the papers were voluminous, the sooner they should be produced the better. The Hense then divitled o n the Prey . "'" clues` tioll • Ayes, 9,l—Noes, 75—Majority, 19. Some of the motions were agreed to, and others WithdraWn, with a notice that they would be -- bronght forward on a future day; Mr. BARHAM brought in the.SlLve Trade Bill,' *hiCh was react a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on - Monday next. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH gave notice that he should, on the firit open day, move for Some far ther 'papers respectiui Genoa. He wished to kno* whether , the papers already ordered would be delivered by Friday. Ldrd ess7l..sx EACH said, that he had no ob jection to the new papers being granted which he had understood that ft, was the intention of the Eon. Gentleman to move for. _ Sir J. MACKINTOSH then moved "for a copy or extract of the representations made by his Lord ship the Duke of Carnpbchi: u •o r assist) n copy of the addresses horn the inhabitants at Gcnoa to Lord W. itentinck, with respect to their wish to return to their ancient Governtnent, and the an swers thereto ; as also a copy of the instructions to Lord W. Bentinck (in this subject.'—.Grantea. Sir 3. NI holt twrout then gave notice - of his inn t`tu►► redpectingGenna'for Thursday se'nnight., MOPE ItTg Tax. On the motion of the CHANCE/J.OR of the • E xrnEG,vßn, 'that the House resolve itself into a Committee at Ways and Means, Mr. WHITBREAD said,, that before the Speaker, kit the Chair, he conid not help proteifing against the Property .Tax, which the chancellor of the P;xelieqttee had given notice of hits iotention of renewing.* The Right Hon. Gentleman had be fore told the IlOuse that it would be abandoned if Oace should 'continue, and if the other taxes which had been proposed to be sidimititted, were agreed to. Every one of these other taxes ex cept one bad been abandoned. this manner of proceeding, the Chancellor of the Exchequer ac knowledged that Other he is 8 most unfit Mini ster for devising : taxes, or that no other tax could be devised equal to the necessities of the country. sow, ev e ry one of those . other' taxes, except one, was abandoned by the Right Hoe. Gentleiumi himself, while this tax, which he said would be ehaodoned if peace should continne,..Was to be renewed. He therefore would wish to knoW in what state we were to consider the country, whether in a state of peace or war, and if iu st a te of war, what was the object of the war, or . - whether k was to replace the Bour bons on the throne of' France ? Under circum stances when there was no probability of a speedy return of .war, a peace establishment of 11l mil ‘liotts had been fixed on. If then there should be a recurrence, the country had, a very gloomy pros 7 pect before it. He was most anxious, therefore,, to have a deckled answer to the question—Are we ,at war or are we not ? Was there no alternative between a war and not placing the Bourbons on the throne of France,? %Vas _there a treaty con eluded at Vienna oa such terms as it was spoken of ; and, if there was, was it' authorised or unau thorised . his Majt:ity's, Ikrin'e,ters . ,..... for it' was alow. -the eustotts- ut his 'Majesty's' I‘,llUi3ters to pledge the honour of the country, Without any other authority than their own; This Treaty was said to be founded on that of Chaumont,. .and 'he would wit to know. whether we were bound to treat on no terms whatever with the, present Itulr of France ? He would wish also to know whether, es was stated in the French Papers, hostiEties had commenced in Italy between the troops of Naples and those of Austria ;- whether the former had not been successful, whetherltome had not'been taken, and whether there had not been a rising through out Italy against the Austrians ? He knew not bow it happened, that while the Noble Lord„was st) candonsjngiving information on, the subject of his mission, so many documents, stole into the pnplic papers. Whether the portfolio of the No-. ble Lord , had a rent in it, which let out a ff a i rs that should be kept ice --(a luugh)—or by what evdr other means it came to pass, so it was.; and lie \afoul(' wish to know. whether the Noble Lord which appeared in a news ,3yould disavow a note. paper of this day, his signature questions, he thought, ought to be answered on .the, present occasion ) , as it was: hardly possible to hesitate between wh'ether we should proceed now tr,- the ronsideratiOn of what was considered tt yar-tux, or postpone the Consideration of it till . „ after we should know ‘vhether we were at war or peace. • , Lord bati - inatAtt said, that in the present tir-• enmstanees of Europe, there could be no doubt of the necessity of wconsh!erable augmentation of the Offensive means of the country. His Right Han. Friend had stated, that in the event.of war the Property Tax would probably be again resort 7, ed to ; but he did not preclude himself from re sorting to it, should circumstances require it , e ven without the recurrence of war. The Flnn. Gen tleman (Mr. Whitbread) asked him (Loyd Castle reagh), whether he was prepared to disavow a Note which bad appeared in a paper of that day, professing to be signed. by him. He was not pre pared at present to answer all the ,Hon. Gentle tll2li'S questions, for the interests of his country would not permit him to do so ;. but as it h:ui been said that the day of trial would come, he could say, that on that day, when the interests of the country would permit it, he would bg ready to kistify every part of his conduct. lint it it %vas dentanded of him to sacrifice the interests of the country to . his own justification, he would rather Submit to any misrepresentation of: hips conduct for the present, Such a demand however had never been made by any person; Who could be considered a statesman. Mr. Fox, never made such, a demand. The lion. Gentleman was the first person who ever indulged in that House its the continual habit of Asking premature questions. He was not prepared to answee the Hon. Gentle man's questions at present; and the lion. Gen tlenian himself must feel it would be a breach of his duty, if he did. All he could say .trus, that there was no hostile step taken by'this coun try as vet. 'PONso.N.BY tait4 that as the Noble Lord had alloded to that person (Mr. Fox) %vhose me mory he most revered and loved, he must say, that the Noble Lord had not dealt fairly by Mr. Fox had often asked questions such as had -been asked to-night, and he often had been, as was the case to-night, unanswered, Wiky could not the Noble Lord answer any of the questions of to-night ? What was there in those questions which it was dangerous to answer ? He was glad however to hear thtit. the Noble Lord declared that there was no hostile step taken by this coun try as yet. But what objection bad he to state whether the Note that had appeared in one of the papers of this day was genii* or not ?; His si lence, however i .was sufficient. It spoke as fully as words could do. Lord CNSTLEREAGII and Mr. WIIITBUCAD se verally explaiacd. Sir MATTnEw -W. Run,Ey took this early op portunity Of entering his protest against this ob. noxioui measure. He always considered that this T i c; had been laid; nit for the defence of the coin try. We were not now at war, thoiigh from the Noble Lord's expressions he had.room to fear that it Was determined we should not belong without it. However we were yet at peace, and while we we r e , he did not see why we should have this op pressive measure. The Emperor of rrauce bad propel .:41 terms for the continuance of peace; and if those terms were fair and honourable to us, he could not think that the country ought to he op pressed with this unequal and inquisitorial tax merely for the purpose of torciug tho flottrlions on the Throne of France. He certainly thought it fit that the country 'should be always placed in a state of security, but a strict and rigid economy was the best way to place her in this state. He concluded by most strongly protesting against the Tax.- Sit FomnatcK FLOOD said he had heard that' the Irish Chancellor of the Bullet - Ines meant to proposirthis tax for Ireland. He had this day received many letters 'from Ireland about it, and they expressed the general alarm entertained in that country on the subject. Ireland "i.vas very badly able RI present to 'bear any fresh burdens, and he feared if this load was added tO her other hardships, that she could no long►tr support her lot. Mr. FITZGERALD did not feel himself culled on to state what financial measures he 'lntended to propose fur Ireland. Sir FREDERICK FLOOD eXplitirled.. Mr. MARTIN COIICIIITed With the Hon. Baronet in his opinion of the inability of lrelthitl to'bear this tax. BANKEs had, on a former occasion, stated his opinton, that, under 'certain minliticaiions, this would be one Of the fairest and properest taxes that could be Il6fised. lie did not think that any other equally, productive tax could be thought of, which woolti he so little oppressive, or so little unequal, tie therefore ‘vould not ob ject to it, 00 account of the principle of the we a ... sure. But he considered it us the beginning of a new syStein of -taxatidn ; and he could not think, of agreeing that a part of the United Kingdom should be sub j ect to it, while auother part (Ire land) would be excluded. Sir. FRANCIS BURDETT thought that it had been long since dethonstrated that this Tak. was une qual, as falling as heavily on yearly income as on permanent property. This tax hail been first laid on as t temporary one, bat now it could hot be doubted that it was intended to be Made perma nent. The country was still at peace, and. was it, fair, .11etvinild ask, to renew u war tax with out telling her whether war was or was not to be renewed, The Ministers seemed to say to the people, Give,us your money, , and We %via give you :tothing but ambiguity in return." The Noble Lord ought to tell what he intends ti do—whe. tber he intends peace or %var. Without doing so could be expect that an already overburdened and exlmusred country would he satisfied to, be still burdened and exhausted fartlier. Ile suspected that this was the first step to a war, which could be very welt and honourably avoid e d and there fore that the war and the 1. 0 support it would be equally unjust. lie wo u ld not f eel he discharged his duty if be did not most sol emn l y protest against such an odious and unjust tax and- be feared that this would be a More calamitOus war than any the country was eve r enk age a 4itsINETT could _not help COn S id er i ng - the flicastti'e as a first step to a war, into which he saw Driinisters endeavouring to inveigl e t h e " mil _ try. lie never could consent to a rvir in favolir of the unfortunate 1104 whti Were tety on tile: throne of France ;. for however he pitied them, be thought that this country should not b e ount,;. ed in a tremendous Conflict for tlretn.. the Noble Lard t.efused to give any information, be refused to tell s'vbether there had been an engagement be tween the Neapolitan and Austrian troops,' whe ther Rome had been taken by the Kiog of Nantes, whether there was a general rising in Italy against' the Austrians, or any other subject which would lead to a judgment whether par or peace was most likely, and yet he W'ould have the Htinie agree to an odious and oppressive war.• He concluded by entering - his protest. against the measure. Mr. J. P. GRANT expressed his opinion that it was not necessary now to go into the question of adopting this tax. It was a tax most insulting to the sense'and feelings of the country, and un less the greatest emergency could be made out for its revival, the people had no right to submit. to it: All minds, however, were-agreeil• as to 'the necessity of adopting a state of defensive prepara tiou ; but though he had given his vote for this purpose, ou the occasion of die Army Extraordi naries, he did 'not think that a case hail been trade out which required the revival of this Ph - noxious tax. The question was, whether it was to remain as long as . Buonaparte should continue on the throne of France ? If this were the case, the time of its cessation would be very equivocal. We bad been told that a great peace establishu n was - necessary, even in the time that the Bourbons were on s t . te throne, to provide against ally unforeseen breach of any part of the Treaty ; but tt ere we to be told, that because Buonaparte has regained the throne of nonce, that the difference between the peace establishment now and in the time of the Bourbons is so great as to require thediffe rence between that establishment as it now stood, an& the amount of the Income Tax.. If this' wet e the case, Ministers mist have a very biAli opinion of the situation of the country, to suppose it could bear such an expenditure. Unless it were made to Appear that war was absolutely necessary, or that at must be looked for at no distant period, he , could sce no reason for the resumption of the • tax. But foe his own part he could not believe that war was necessary. It was of very little importance. whether the people of FranCe wet e qttieScent or not ; Buonaparte had re-seated him self on the throne ; and if we were to go to war for the purpose of dethroning Min, this was a pur pose so totally hopeless, 'that unless the Gentle men opposite would convino him that such was their intention, he must dissent from the re-enact. , meat of a tax which was not justified by any pros pect now before the House or the country. Mr. CALgamrr observed, that the return of Buonaparie to France, undoubtedly muttered it necessary to have the Peace establishment of this Country higher than when we were looking to an establishment of peace for a series of years. Even in `this happy time, if it had occurred, he was oropinion that a modified Property Tax would have been better to meet the exigencies of the period than the taxes proposed by the Chan-, cellor of the Exchequer. But yet, if it had been, or were now to be received, be would endeavour to get many parts of -it Modified, as he had ever' thought-it to be the most unjust, most cruel, and inquisitorial measure that ever wits impiised the greater portion of the people.• He Would cor dially 'agree as to the necessity or p u the country into a state of the most effective defence ; bat every man must know that the sums ,that are necessary cannot be produced except by the Pro perry 'Fax. On voting, however, for the Speaker leaving the Chair, he should not conceive himself bound to support the measure as it had now been proposed. . • Mr. H. Matvrtx said, the Property Tax had been found so universally oppressive,- that there was not a person to be found out of that House who slid not object to its revival ; and thespeech of the Chancellor of the. Exchequer was very little calculated to cleange their opinion. The Right Hon. Gentleinan had not dealt fairly by the House or the Public, if when he asked for the votes for the Army V.;xtraordinaries, lie had it in contem plation to meet them With the Property-Tax.--- If a strict and regular economy had been intro duced into ex try branch of the public expenditure, mighttls ll t with e ‘ e- o n t i a n y g oitied against Heshould i s t s e c o o l t l t t r e g n e t the tax us it was now proposed ; bat in all its fu- _ . . . titre stages he shonkt ileem it his duty to oppose it, and throw , all possibla impediments in its way. Alderman C. SMITH contended,' that the Pro perty Tax was a very good tax if properly levied. Complaints had been madeabout its pressure up on persons. who lived on the interest of their funded property ; di,sit it was known that' there m ere persons who 'bad 300,0001. or 400,0001. in the Stocks, who did; not live at a greater rate than 10011. a year. He. was convinced that nine per sons out Of fen without that' House would ap prove of that tax, ,if properly, Motll6ed—(Hear, bear!) it might be, that there would be many objections to it; but there mac always. people who would object to any tax. Mr. CIIARLF:k GRANT, jun. thought it was evi dent that a great chimge had taken place in the public opinion re,4pecting this tax: He had'heard a great deal of protesting this night on the sub ject, and he would also enter his protest, which would be against converting the ways of meeting the public expenditure into the medium of per: sonal attaeks.upoo the Noble LorcL Was it de cent to anticipate the day of his trial, as it was called, and go on to his condemnation ? They might at least have delayed. their invectives till the day of trial. He would eppeal to every ' man, whether an emergency did not exist, which re ware(' an runis . mil expenditure, and that as far as possible this shirail he met by theinpplies of the year In spite of alt that had been said against - t h e tax, he wo . Ald assert that it had been the most productive and the least objectionable of any that had ever been devised. • Mt% MARRYATT Coll4lided that the tax would fall with Utillsllal severity on the commercial mem bers of the country. Hu strongly deprecated the conduct of the asseisors, who had nothing else to do than to pry i nto every man's affairs to fi n d where ihey could make surcharges. Hoping, however, that some modifications would be adopt ed, he should Support the motion ; but he also hoped that the - Public would not in hiture be left without some mode of 'appeal. He trusted that Ministers would use every endeavour to preserve peace that was eunsistent with the honour and safety of the country, otherwise they talc^ upon titeMselves a most awful-tespOnsibility.would - while the question remained undecided, he agree that the country ought to be put in the ruost complete state of defence ; and on this groend he should vote for the Committee. Mr. W. Satyru observed, that the reason why be opposed the motion was, because lie agreed perfectly with his constituents, that the tax should . not be introduced under any modifications likely to be imposed. He used . the words " likely to be imposed," because he thought that, under cer tain modifications, no more effectual and excel lent tax could be - imposed ; but there shou ld -be a discrimination between the different kinds of pro perty, and the present vexatious mode of levying the tax should be abolished. H e, however, un derstood that such modifications were inconvti ble with the nature of she,tax, and, con sequeutTile lyo he would never consent to ir s introduction. tax likewise was unequally leVied, for propert Trot worth three years purchase, paid the same per tentage as that worth twenty years parchase. e Ald e rman ATKINS cousitlered t he Property Tx, under certain modifications, as the most pro Per ever levied, but condemned the c ontinuation of it) as lately exercised. Mr. HARVEY recommended the introdueri" of modifications in the Property Tax-, which woolo, so regelitted, be one of ' the best possible; awl .premised his assistanie in the Com:nit:cc to oh' lain that object. Mr. WasTeete took then pportun i t y then offe red of giving his most decided opposition to the Pro . pert y Tax, in unv 31hapa. He would at all tetras refuse his asSeut to a measure founded On such t u l ll 3e iu p .s t t .e l s ' e r i i t wi t l it i t e l s e, ns he th t e tio P e r g7t el ..( t)V pp i r seasxs'iVwellic atilt d ' t"" ! Mr. K DIOENSON ho ed that some modificetica necessary. would have heen adopted, perticularly R hi the wad e ent. was of ascertaining a criterion of prope rt y . - mot a propetoee, for different persons-would ,eve different report of even landed property, awl at p the present time no men could tell with accuracy what hi,eproperty was, front one cad of the year to the other. , Mr. Rose thought a Committee the best rnal.e of examining the measure, and ther e it would ,Stebe found that the Property Tax eras the m'' 'fecud that could be proposed. Notwithstanding, the many assertions made that its operatioo loa cramped propeity, the fact was, in reality., thl :1 1 :: y ub i l i e i,i l t i c n o, v d e d h b te e . during its continuance landed pi -0 1 1 ° 4 Y In" ald de w n as co a n t s a u x m an experience of 30 years, he had Constantly ob•• f o r during served, that in . taxes laid on articles -of conSumr: Lion, every one hadfdrawn three times as much !c was obteined by the Government. Liven in the taxes lately propoSed by the Chancellor of ta: the Property tpateioporieferable to i Exchequer, it would 1:, found that nine out of i tr would ply treble as much as would be req uireb i : i f tax the !untied property of the k Tax. He stated that but It ic L l ef i n gdom , riteth reev per cents . . had fallen below 49, have been annihilated previous to it. o o t the Government had borrowed.6oo millions* vio .. Mr. BRI . ND thought any discussion on tbe , , a s perty Tax, at the present time, as prettedme ,v ~ c hset , 47 , , . ‘l' a I the proposition itself ; but he mus t that the tax was, i n many hwances, mostextretouLrq. objectionable, and such as a case of th e cas e gent neeessity• alone could justify. No s ue t v. the Horse, l . ! had, however, been laid before . soh • ' it was not even asserted, bet th at peace may re sails be secured. He thought that if it tvsne n ," s , oa id at present, to raise any immbie ums, it 1% 1, , ,t be much .more advisable to meet the exig enc Y re ) 3 Vote of Credit, than by imposing so scvc , o „el and yet since Tax. He allowed that the Property ' 1 "". '" the raise the. most effectual supplies, as b i g the most general 'system of confiseat i° "' . 1 g " best , event of war it would undoubtedly bp t h '- ‘ , l t ely hut it had not appeared! that war was - a ' s- , u s ea -necessary. He would, however, proP ° "' ',::. t he Property Tax Act be pOst ied to that day tart' Amendment—‘ , That the consideration el pot night." a fter 3. • Mr. FOLEY seconded the Amendment, „ilea few brief observations to the effect that "th e c , - as s" try did not now possess the same abilitY t° P ' the tax that it Itad for some years Past. eot to Mr. TIE.INEY said, he sho uld not coos jo ., the Speaker's leaving' the Chair , 'unless sel" hardship of .the farmer, formation were given of' a decisive nattire. seote, Mr. IVHITBREAD repeated his former co o meats on the subject, and dwelt on th e Y e c all° eel on to pay 71 per cent. although ahnost ru : a and obliged to live the interest of his fu ll 1 1 :, upon viva "- property , if he had any. After repeating t , d . bser ve ' had said in reprehension of subsidies be ° To .chat if a war should eusue, the Proll ert ): 1 4 who would noW ne ird, would be saddled on - the people of ° l ' s --)11 la" . foe ever--(Laud . of 9 'llte ucries Na,N no, n°;, : , i d tli_ come Tax would produce fourteen Mit"" s r a g to utmost ; an d, 10 the fi rst i n stance, accortt ove the Treaty cf Chaumont, we were to T a ): Id millioi)s to the• Allies, for one year's sti° sl .' ve " n ine it was even rumoured that - we Were t° g i .", n oot , their nerves , fo that degree of energY milliOne to the coalesced Prkiers, t° sti ` bo ala impel them to gO to war . It was clear t that 60 -ply whole depended on this cOuntry, ant i ', l l e a , Coe" believed that if Ministers cold(' stimntateo`,lo a s s' tinent to war agaitist France, they-wow:1, be tar He denied that the PrOperty fax cow ( ' id co n• lified . so as to be rendered .palatoble, atilt demnel the , sevaitv w i t h wh i c h it had in been.enforced. Vel ° *P Lord (.` - —ASTI.CREA.GIi rose vied rePe - ' ; at i o a. Whitbread in a style of considerable ,''`A n cl it He , observed that the Hon. Member bo " a 0 ar • more convenient to discuss the question °n da• . . t fowl Whichs to stimption of his own than upon rationos , lev ee, Hall. If iestead of opposing the Spe3l'el, ! I vo ing the Chair, lie had permitted him to l i c . rie wb. be would have fottad that his Right O ffil. oval at instead of intending to propose the Prone; ty Tax in perpetuity, wbetbe.e_ re pr e the re" to the 1 ni tPa G i il l a o c t e s t en i n z e ti rs t t e ti , i l l n el . i t s t tt i i : t% : t : 'f :: ( ; 1 te s ' a ( if'isefitti.:'ytavrcledAtieaetyr,ii•l'Hl.tljoirsoei:::aetfesir;:tn‘te‘i we e' t :1 1 1 %: : :l e : : t" . e s ii: alat x (1 1 , 1 : 1 e l °rl(t .i. le . r : (l :: i te. :: : : . eS i r !: sl l :ll ,l lii_li ! . .it was necessary to show to 'Europe that the g ot 't t h e y ,„• that we could live on such terms w ~,,t, I P GOVerli ni" Freach b 1 it 'Y n ru ll.•