The Sun. — London, England, 1842-03-19 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, March 18. . The Loan CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at a Quarter after Five o'Clock. Lord BROUGHAM presented petitions from Garro sheils and several places in Ireland, praying for an im mediate alteration in the Marriage Law in Ireland. Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition from an indi vidual who had become a bankrupt, and having refused, from conscientious scruples, to swear to his balance sheet, except by affirmation, he was detained in custody, and prayed an alteration in the present state of the law. The Duke of WELLINGTON said the-question was, how the truth was to be ascertained. Before ho would vote for the Affirmation Bill under the consideration of their Lordships, he should like to hear the opinion o! seine of those learned individuals who were engaged in the administration of the law, as to whether they. were of opinion that the new mode proposed was as good as the old mode of ascertaining the truth from witnesses and persons called on to give evidence. Lord CAMPBELL would be very much rejoiced that an investigation would be had into the matter, and he Was sure the Learned Judges who were engaged in the administration of justice in this country were, almost every one of them, in favour of some alteration in the present laiv of evidence. TIMBER DUTIES. In answer to a question from Lord MALSMBURY, Lord RIPON said he was not then able to answe] the question, not having any notice of an intention tc pat it ; bnt he could state that the sth of April had beer introduced into the Bill for the alteration of the tarill with respect to timber duties, under the expectation that it would have made more progress than it had. BOROUGH OF SUDBURY—ELECTION COMMITTEE.' The LORD CHANCELLOR informed the Housethat a message had been received from the Commons, re questing their Lordships to order the attendance of Vis count Combermere, to give evidence before the Com mittee appointed to try the merits of the petition pre sented against the return for the borough ,of Sudbury-- an answer would be sent by the private messenger of the House. COLONIAL BISHOPRICS' BILL. The Colonial Bishoprics' Bill was read a second time. _ _ CORN-LAWS. Lord MONTCASHEL presentel a r et'tion from the county of Down in Ireland, praying for an increased (Lay upon the importation of foreign flour. The House then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, MARCH 18. The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four o't2Lek. The Cottenham Inelosute Bill was read a third time ; and passed. SHEFFIELD AND MANCHESTER RAILWAY. On the motion of Mr. WILSON PATTEN the Shef field, Ashton-under-Lyne, and Manchester Railway Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed. TIMBER TRADE. Lord GEORGE BENTINCK presented a petition from certain Merchants engaged in the Canada timber trade, stating that they had recently imported large quantities of timber from Canada, on which they had paid duty, and that they would be subjected to very heavy loss if the duties were suddenly reduced, and praying the House to afford them relief—the petitioners also stated, that in their opinion, the proposed altera tions in the duties on Canadian and Baltic timber, would ruin the Canada timber trade. _DUTIES ON STRAW. Mr. FECTOR presented a petition from St. Albans, praying for a reduction of the duties in the importation of straw. INCOME TAX. Mr. IL R. YORKE presented a petition from Disbo. rough, in Yorkshire, against the income tax, it being in the opinion of the petitioners every way objectionable, and calculated to paralyze the commercial prosperity of the country. CLITHEROE ELECTION. Mr. HOGG brought up the Report of the Select Com mittee appointed to inquire into this election, and stated that one John Ashworth had interrupted the proceedings of the Committee, and attempted to influence a witness under examination. The Hon. Member therefore moved that John Ashworth attend forthwith at the bar of the House. 'n; motion was carried. NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND.) Mr. A. S. O'BRIEN presented a 'petition &on; Kil marnock against the present system of National Educa• tion in Ireland. ' . _ _ - Mr. SHAW,presented two petitions from some places in Ireland, with the same prayer. Mr. MACAULAY presented a petition from Edin burgh, praying that steps might be taken relative to'the sugar trade with the Channel Islands. Dr. BOWRING presented thirteen petitions from Middlesex, Yorkshire, and other places, praying for a repeal of the Corn.laws. Lord SANDON presented a petition from the -millers of Kent, praying the House to adopt measures for secur ing the protection of their rights. Also a petition from the brewers of Liverpool, praying that brewers' casks should not be liable to be seized for the rent of their (the brewers) customers. Sir IL DOUGLAS presented a petition from Mr. John Taylor, cotton-broker, of Liverpool, against the in cense tax, as dangerous in the highest degree to the safety of the State, and subversive of th e lib er ti es o f t h e people, and other things.—(Roars of laughter from the Opposition benches.) This petition was extensively cir culated throughout Liverpool, but no signature but that of the petitioner was attached to the petition. YATE ENCLOSURE BILL. This Bill was read a second time. PRIVILEGE-THE HON. JAMES HOWARD. The SERJEANT AT ARMS announced, in ob,dience to the commands of the House, that the Hon. James Euward was i; custody. Ir. C. HOWARD said that lie regretted that the TIGn. Member was not present when name was called, but he could assure the House that it was from no dis respect to the House that he was absent ; but it merely -use from his not being acquainted with the forms of t! House. He was ready to express his sorrow for breaking through the rules of the House, and he threw himself upon its indulgence.—(Cheers.) 14 , ,rd GRANVILLE SOMERSET said in that case he would move that the Honourable Member be discharged on the payment of the usual fees ; on the other hand, if, after the example of the pre sciit case, Hon. Members did not attend when they ought to Iv present, he conceived it his duty to state that they ought not to be•discharged without being reprimanded, aid also paying the expenses of those who might sutler from his neglect.—(Hear.) Tae. motion was then put and carried. N ELECTION PZCITION. The names of the Members app.rinted to try this peti tion, which appeared in The San of yesterday, were then called, and the usual oath administered. On the name of the lion. Mr. Howard bAng called, who wts one of those chosen to try the m wits of the petition, tl e Gentleman entered the House amid loud cheers. INCOME TAX. Lord WORSLEY presentel a petition against the Ineunte CORN LAWS. 'Cr. R. CUItItIE presented a petition from Manches ter, for a total repeal of the Corn Laws. E I )U . C, A.T KM IN lItEI, AN D. Mr. GREGORY presented a petition crom Galway, apiust the National Education system in England. Mr. PROTHEROE presented a petition for a total. repeal of the Corn-laws. Lord FRANCIS EGERTON presented a petition, ra..ying for the release of Frost, Williams, and Jones. my. WAKLEY presented a petition against the income tax. .tating that it ought not to be levied on incoruts of less than 2.5eL a-year. PRISON DISCIPLINE. fr. DUNCOMM begged to draw the attention of Ale Under beeretary of State f_ir the Home Depart- In.•at, to a petition which lie had to present, emanating front a public taseting at York. It stated that at. the York Assims for 1840, a person named Oldbury w:ts convicted of sedition, and sentenced to four years' impvisonnient. Though it was not by the sentence part of his punishment, yet he had been placed on the tread-wheel, and had afterwards been con fined in the House of Correction on the silent system In September last he was retrieved to York Castle, where aC experienced better treatment, but still the petitioners considered 'his health to have been so lunch inured by punishment be had undergone, that if he remained in prison two years more, it would occasion his prema ture death. They, therefore, pray the House 1.) interfer3 for procuring his release. He thought that, from his offence, his good conduct in prison, and the state of his health, the imprisonment he hzmitindergone was quite sufficient penalty for his offence. INCOME TAX. Mr. CLAY presented a petition from the Metropolitan Life Insurance Soc IMP iet yORT against the Income Tax. DUTIES. _ _ The Hog. MvstnEn also presented a petition from the Starch Manufacturers of the Tower Hamlets against a reduction of the duty upon imported starch. Mr. AIUNTZ gave notice that be should, on the fur ther consideration of the Report on the Severn Naviga th:n Bill, move that the Bill be recommitted. Mr. P. SCROPE moved for a return of the actual vntuation of the Poor-rates in England and Wales. — Ordered. Mr. "%LEWITT gave notice, that he would after EAster, move a resolution to the effect, that in the opinion of that House, property acquired in war did not properly belon g to the Crown, and that the appropria tion of it by th e ministryof the Crown, without the assent concornowe of Parliament, was a breach of their duty, and an infringement of the rights of the people, said a violation of the privileges of that House. Mr. O'CONNELL wished to put a question to the Noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, relative to the Dublin Police Bill, which he perceived stood on the paper for a second reading that night. The Act gave very ex tensive powers, capable of being converted to pur poses of vexation ; and he wished to know whether the Jtioble Lord would consent to postpone the second read i w of the Bill until after Easter, in order to give parties tae more fully to consider its provisions. Lord ELIOT, who spoke in a very indistinct to ne , was understood to say that he had no objwction to the post ponement of die second reading until after Easter. • of the Day f or t h e t hi rd On the reading of the Order Teading of the Consolidated Fund Mr. HAWES rose and said, ho wished to ask the Right lion. Gentleman, the Vice-President of the Board I.if Trade, what might be the final determination relative to the duties published in the schedeole. He wished to know how soon a correct schedule might be laid on the table of the House that they might judge definitely of. the duties ? Mr. GLADSTONE said there were changes which it add be desirable to notice in print, as early as pos- sible. There werealso one or two typographical errors in the tariff. He was desirous to avoid successive noti fications ; a little delay had therefore been occa.sioned that it might be laid correctly before the House. The errors would be corrected as soon as pes::ible, and the correct tariff would be laid on 'the table before the House separated for the Easter recess. Mr. G. WOOD said he thought it would be better to reprint the tariff altogether. Mr. HAWES said he understood the Right Hon. contemplation. Gentleman to say that thereweresem e errors, and that some changes were in nte Where there were. typographical errors he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman ought to inform the House what they were as soon as possible, that they might know what were the errors and what the proposed changes. Captain PECIIELL wished to know whether, in .the proposition which had been made for placing a duty on fish, which had been heretofore proposed, the effect that duty would have on what had been done by the Select Committee of Fisheries in 1833, and the convention with the French in 1839, as to the exclusive right of fishing within three miles of our coast, had been considered. He wished to call the attention of the House to this subject; for it whole fleets of French ship.; were allowed to fish on our .ioast, and carry their fish for sale into the ports of kent and elsewhere, the effect would be greatly to injure our fisheries. Sir ROBERT PEEL spoke in so low a tone of voice that flue purport of, his answer did not reach us. • PROPERTY FOR CHARITABLE USES. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE wished to know from the Right [lon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) whether theincome arising rum funds or. land s f or c h ar it a bl e purposes was to bee subject to the income tax? Sir R. PEEL said that it was not his intention that the income arising from the rent of land, or public securi ties forcharitable purposes, should be subjected to the tax, that was to say, when it was solely applied to such pur poses ; but the salary of public officers appointed to ad minister such property would not be exempt from the tax. EXCHEQUER FRAUDS. Dr. BOWRING wished to know from the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he would bring forward the sub ject of the Exchequer Frauds' Bill to-night.—(Alaugh.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not see any probability of being able to do so. IRISH FISHERIES. In answer to a question from Mr. Shiel, Lord ELIOT s zid it was his intention to bring in a Bill during the present Session on the subject of Irish Fisheries. The Consolidated Fund Bill was read a third time and passed. A Message from the Lords brought up sundry Bills. THE INCOME TAX. Lord JOHN RUSSELL wished to know, from the Right Honourable Baronet, whether it was his inten tion to make his statement of the manner in which he proposed to collect the income tax, before the Speaker left the Chair, or after the House should have gone into Committee ? Sir R. PEEL said he should make the statements im mediately'on the House resolvingitself into a Committee. Lord J. RUSSELL thought if the Right Hon. Ba ronet had any explanation to make, it should be done before the Speaker left the Chair, as it could not so properly be made on a mere resolution in a Committee of Ways and Means, as on a general statement of finance. Sir R. PEEL said, when the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, he would take the earliest opportunity of laying the information required before the House, and he proposed to commence the debate by that statement. If he made it in Committee, he should have the opportunity of speaking more than once, and should be able to reply to any objections. Mr. BARING said it was perfectly competent to the Right Hon. Baronet to take the course he had stated. Ho did not at all quarrel with the Right Honourable Baronet for reserving his explanation till he spoke on the Income Tax specifically, and not on the general subject of the finances; but having heard from the Right Hon. Baronet the pro pOsition of those measures which on the part of her Majesty's Government, it would be the most satisfactory course to explain the general nature of his plan (as we understood) before the House went into Committee. He would advert to the manner in which the debate on Friday last was conducted. The Right Hon. Baronet then gave a general view of the finances of the country, and went into an explanation of his plan as a whole, and not in reference to any particular measure. The Right Hon. Baronet's statement on that occasion did not call for any expression of pinion from gentlemen on that (the Opposition) side of the House, and they offered no opposition to the resolutions which the Right Hon. Baronet considered necessary for the public ser vice. As to the particular measures which the Right Hon. Gentleman had to propose, if they were fairly dis cussed in the Committee, after that fair discussion, dry . Auld not oppose the Right Hon. Gentlemen. They were e esng into the Committee to discuss the details of the measure, and would have to examine each particular detail, and not the general principle of one great measure. He had now to trouble the House with some observations, which he had great reluctance to offer. The Right Honourable Baronet had stated that he (Mr. Baring) had stated the expendi ture at more than it actually proved to be. There was indeed, one particular point, in which the expenditure had proved to be less than he had anticipated. That was in the case of China. But he could assure the House, that it was extremely difficult to get informa tion- at that time ; and he had laid the information which he possessed as fairly before the House as he could. Ile never pretended that his estimates were precisely accurate as to amount, but he was afraid he could not pay any great compliment to the calculations of the Right 116 n. Baronet. The Right lion. Baronet seemed to consider that the falling off in the revenue would be a permanent one, but he (Mr. F. Baring) thought that di minution was attributable to circumstances not likely again to occur, and that the income from these sources would be much higher than the Right Hon. Baronet had calculated on. He would not go into any details with regard to the estimates of expenditure. Those were matters which the House had already had before them in detail, and the greater part of whick had been voted, and from the circumstances of the country he could I not see any likelihood of any diminution taking place. iu these estimates. He would, therefore, take the annual expenditure at 50,819,000/. Now, with regard to the estimates of income, he would say, speaking from his own experience from a pretty long connexion with the Treasury, that even the officers of the Treasury it self, and who had for years been connected with that department, are unable to make anything like a correct estimate of the income ; and as for any one else, without their information, attempting to do it, was clearly impossi ble. It was generally known that at the period when Chan cellors of Exchequer usuallymade their statements the do cuments on which they were founded, and which were pre pared in their own offices, always, somehow or other, found their way to the public. These papers, which v.-ere of a dent-official character, he 'should treat as authorities, and on those papers he should found the argument he was about to address to the House. From those papers he found that the annual expenditure amounted to 50,819,000/., the income to 48,350,0001., and the deficiencies to 2,553,000/. The Right Honourable Baronet had correctly stated the expen di:ure at 50,819,0001., and the income at 48,350,000/.. leaving a deficiency, on the whole, of 2,569,000/. In ste ting this deficiency the Right Hon. Baronet was not quite correct in his cakulations. Now, when lie (Mr. Baring) was at the Exchequer, he found the deficiency to be 100,000/. less, being 2,469,000/. instead of 2,569,000/, so that ie was happy to say the Right Hon. Baronet was mistaken to the amount of 100,000/, and it was no small console to him (Mr. Baring) to be able to band over to the Mglit Hon. Barone: an additional 100,000/. in the present state of his finances.—(Langliter and cheers.) Formerly the Right Hon. Baronet taunted him with not t,ding able to get much out of him when lie (Mr. 13.) was fishing for a budget, but he had tiecome more fortunate since he (Mr. 13.) had left that side of the water in which the Right Hon. Barenet and his colleagues. had been for some :iese splashing. Now he (Mr. Baring) had caught 100,0001., which, with perfect good humour, lie begged to offer to the Right Hon. Baronet, as the first fruits of his (Mr. B.'s) financial fishing on that side of the stream.—(Leughter.) Now, as the whole of this discussion turned upon the financial deficiency, he would beg leave to refer to the deficiency as it arose, in order that the House might nn de.rstand the case exactly. The first year in which a deficiency occurred was in the year 1837-38, when the amount was 1,418.000/., a, large deficiency certa:nly, but how had it arisen ? Gentlemen who were acquainted with that period would re. ollect that it was a year of almost unparalleled difficulty; that the revenue bad fallen off to an extraordinary extent, cr to speak more correctly, that the eevenue of 1836 and 1837 had anticipated to a great extent that of 1837 and 1838. On that occasion he perceived that the total ordinary revenue, taking it loosely, fell off by about 2,500,000/. in the course of one year. He did not wish to look back then—to any mistakes which may for merly have An committed by any party, and which every one might commit ; but be should say that if they were still in the same situation, adverting to the circumstances of the year, adverting to the position of the revenue, and adverting to the elasticity of these resources, which had hitherto borne the revenue harmless through much greater difficulties—he should say that the course which he then pursued was a wise and proper course—"he meant the course of filling up the defi ciency of one year by the excess of former years. It appeared to him that it would be exceedingly inadvis able on the first moment of an unexpected pressure to have recourse to additional taxation upon that occason ; the anticipation of an increased revenue turned out to a certain extent to be correct, for the deficiency which in the years 1837-8 amounted to 1,438,000/., the next year was diminished by a sum of 1,000,000/. ; and the entire deficiency was then only four hundred and thirty thousand. lie felt perfectly confident, in addition, that if it had not been for those events which afterwards occurred, if it had not been, for instance, for the insurrection which had broken out in Canada, and the necessary addition to our establishment there, and the subsequent expense which this country incurred, he felt perfectly confident that had it not been for those events the next year would not have witnessed that deficiency in the estimates which had taken place, but would have witnessed the revenue and the income equalling each other.—(Hear, hear.) H e admitted, however, that this had not been the case. In the year 1839 the deficiency amounted to 4 , 4 57,0001.; and, in addition, he had to calculate upon the esti mated -deficiency in the future Post-office revenue for the yatr 1839-40. Under these circum stances, after he had come into office, he felt it his duty to take those steps wbiele he thought would be most likely to contribute to equalise this eavenne and the estimated expenditure of the country.—(dear, hear.) The Right Honourable Baronet opposite had made certain observations, which were no doubt perfectly f a i r an d proper upon the financial system of the Minister s w h o h a d preceded him ;but it was his (Mr. Baring's) -desi r e upon that occasion, not intro duce anything jilto the discussion of a persona' nature, The question under our consideration was one of the deepest importance to the country. The question was, what was the financialscourse which they should now pursue ? and he, in common with the Right Hon. Baronet, would have to speak of past transactions ; but he could assure the Right Honourable Baronet and the House, that he would endeavour as much as possible to look upon them in an impartial point of view, and not to in troduce those topics of recrimination which might enliven their debates, but which could be attended with no beneficial result. On She occasion to which he re ferred he had recourse to an increase of 5 per cent. upon the Customs and Excise, and also an income of 10 per cent. upon the assessed taxes There was no donbt that those taxes which were placed on articles of consumption were liable to increase and dimi minish with the soon; ition of the country and the great body of the consumers ; and if we calculated on au increase of revenue derivable from consumable asticles, we always depended on an uncertainty—(Hear)—and no human being could depend on that, even for 5 per cent. The main point in all these questions was, first, this question in the Treasury department, " What is the harvest ?" If the harvest were good, the revenue seldom fails to be made up.—(Hear, hear.) But if there be a succession of bad harvests, and the community were in a state of distress, it was not the 5 per cent. which produced a diminution in the customs, but a much greater evil —the pressure arising from the calamitous position of the greater part of the consumers. The Right Hon. Gentleman stated that he wished to show that we could not look forward to increased taxation for articles of subsistence, and con sidering the different modes of raising the taxes, he came to that of the 5 per cent. Now when they were goits on a calculation which had been the foundation of the conclusions of the Right Hon. Baronet—that it was not expedient, but hardly possible to increase the taxation of the country by laying a tax on consumable commodities, he (Mr. B.) did say that if that was the foundation of the Righi Honourable Baronet's proposition, he bad made a most egregious mistake in the amount -of those commodities. The Right Hon. Baronet had said, that the 5 per cent. tax which he imposed, produced only 206,000/. but when the circumstances were inquired into, that statement would not be found to be correct. The Right Honourable Baronet had forgotten corn which entered largely into the calculation.—(Hear, hear.) The 5 per cent. tax was never placed on corn, and therefore it was not at all touched by the tax of 5 per cent. The Right Hon. Baronet therefore in making the failure of the 5 per cent. tax the founda tion of the plan which he now proposed, should have recollected that the House had not exhausted all the means of supplying the revenue.—(Hear, heai.) He (Mr. B.) was not now contending whether it was not more advisable to have a more direct tax ; but if the Right Hon. Gentleman had based his plan on the failure of the 5 per cent tax, he reckoned without his host. He had not all the official papers before him, but the net pro duce of the customs and excise amounted in the year 1839 to 35,990,0001., not including corn ; but if he took off the amount raised from corn, which was 198,0001., the amount would be only 33,995,0001. In the year 1841 the net produce of the Customs and Ex cise amounted to 35,537,0001., but the tax on corn produced 575,000 L, which, being deducted, the amount )1 . the Customs and Excise duties was 35,200,0001., leaving, instead of 206,0001., as was ascertained by the Right Hon. Baronet, 1,700,000/. for his tax.—(Cheers, and " hear, hear," from Sir Robert Peel.) He should like-to hear an answer to that. In the year 1841, when he proposed the tax of 5 per ceut. the Right Hon. Baronet did not urge very strong objections, but he said that he would prefer an increase of 2d. on the postage, and the Right Honourable Gentleman, then Chancellor of the Exchequer, adopted the same view, but it was remarkable that when they came into office they saw objections to that plan.—(Hear, hear, hear.) As far as he could make out the result of the increase of 5 per cent. on duties was a produce of 1,706,000/ The his tory and circumstances of the year 1841, were, he believed, too recent in the memory of Hon. Gentlemen, to render it necessary for him, in any shape, to call their atten tion to it. He wished, however, and he thought it not unfair, to state that he proposed duties to be imposed by which certain duties could be raised from sugar, and timber, and corn. He had not the slightest wish to go into those party altercations bandied about on both sides of the • House .on that occa-• sion ; but he wished to k now as f ar as h e could what would have been the result of his proposal.— (Hear, hear.) He wished to know whether his plan was really so wild and visionary, and such a contemp tible bubble as he remembered he was told it was. The Right Honouruble Baronet had never allluded . to that part of the subject. He did net know whether he intended it or not, but when, in his statement, h e was exhausting the different modes of raising money, he said, " shall I recur to the plan of decreasing duties, and shall I by that means obtain a larger revenue ?" lf that was supposed by the Right Hon. Baronet, or any other Hon. Gentleman,"to be the plan which he (Mr. Baring) submitted to the House, he was sure he could not have the slightest conception of the nature of the proposal. He did reduce the duty on corn, but he thought he could show, without the slightest difficulty, that they would have had not only the increase which they had actually received, but also the increase which, he was considered so sanguine in estimating at the time when he brought his imported 2,388,072 forward, for theie had been 2,388,072 quarters of foreign wheat and flour—(Oppo sition cheers)—which would have been subjected to the duty of Bs. per quarter— (Hear, hear) —222,000 quarters of barley, at 4s. 6d. a quarter, besides rye, beans, and peas ; so that if they had adopted the measure of his Noble Friend last year; instead of the addition of 575,000/. of revenue, they would have received upwards of 900,000 L. which was what he was taunted with being too sanguine in anticipating.—(Opposition cheers.) But instead even of the 900,000/., the revenue on the corn actually im ported would have been 1,105,0001. Several MEMBERS on the .Opposition— On corn alone; Mr. BARING—On corn alone. He thought he heard a whisper on the other side, "Oh yes, but it would never come in." Now it would not only come in, but the corn would not have been one 6d. dearer. lie would not go any further into that part of the question. Now with regard to sugar, he per fectly admitted that the Right Honourable Baronet had received an addition of revenue of 560,000/., by the operation of the 5 per cent. But that was not quite 'so much as he (Mr. Baring) would have received. That was looked - upon as a great triumph on the other side, because they had obtained it without any change of the law, whereas they said that his proposition would have endangered property in the West Indies, an effect which he entirely denied. He took 700,000/. as the probable increase by the plan proposed last year. But he told the House at the time that he had greatly underestimated his revenue, and that he had got a much larger amount. Every return laid upon the table, and every information which he re ceived, convinced him that without an ounce of foreign sugar being imported lie would have received considerably more, and he thought that he would not only have had, the 575,000/, but 700,000/. in addition to that which the Right Hon. Baronet had admitted come in so .luckily. lie had understood the amount last year, and he did not intend this year to go to ex cess, but ha felt satisfied that what he had stated was , correct He bad been assured last year by the Honourable Gentleman opposite that the supply, of sugar from the East and West Indies would be amply sufficient to meet the consumption of the country. The Right Hon. Gentleman had assured him that there could be no fear but what such would be the case. lie (Mr. F. T. Baring) had met that by another state ment, which was that he would not fix the consumption of the country. but the country ought-to have as large a supply of sugar as they pleased.—(immeese cheering.) That was the state in which he had left the ques tion. And now he would call the attention of the House to the facts which weald show that he was right. If they referred to the returns before the house they would find that the. supply had been taken out, from day to day, by the consumer, and he contended that it there had been a larger supply there would have been a larger demand.— (Loud Opposition cheers.) He should be able to show that if sugar could be procured under a certain given price, the consumption would go on to an extent almost unlimited, but the moment it rose beyond a certain price, consumption was checked—the poorer class of consumers ceased to buy, and they were obliged to depend upon a smaller class of con- SillnerS. He thought he could show that during the last year the demand had not been met by the supply. Ile did not pts tend to say thlit he could show that sugar had been consumed which had never been brought to market, but as far as he could judge from the returns laid on the table, he thought he could show that a further supply would have been met by a further dernand. In 1840 it was agreed on all hands that stocks were very low. In 1840, the total amount imported was 4,105,000 cwts., including foreign sugar warehoused ; the total amount of British Colonial sugar was 2,230,000 c vt.; and the total amount taken out for home consumption was 3,606,000 ewts. shewing a deficiency of colonial supply for the year 1840, of 376,000 cwt. that being the amount by which the demand for home consumption exceeded the supply in 1840. The quantity of sugar inspected in 1841 was 4,883,000 cwt., deducting the foreign, amounti ng to 806,000 ewt, The whole of the colonial supply which reached the market, was 4,077,000 cwt., of which consumed 4,065,000 cwt., leaving a surplus of only 11,000 cwt. upon a stock which had been long imported, and was diminishing. Now, was he wrong in contending that according to their own figures, and their own statements, that if there had been a greater supply — if the trad e had been opened in the manner he desired—the demand would have been increased, and also the revenue would have been increased ?—(Cheers.) But this was not all ; the Right Honourable Gentleman had offered the House a statement of the stock of sugar, and which might be advantageously compared with another statement of stock also issued by the West Indian body, when the discussion took place on sugar in 1840. —(Hear.) The latter statement was merely in anticipation of the quantity of sugar that would come in, but it was so near the actual results, that his authority might be relied upon. The stock, as stated by them, for the Ist of January, 1841, was 700,000 cwt. Now the return by th;Righl tare Ho h n : Baronet, said that the stoels on the Bth of 1842 was only 539,000 cwt. The result, therefore, be tween the two statements was, that from the Ist January, 1841, until the present time, the deficiency in the supply had been 112,000 cwt. less than the demand of the former Year.—(Cheers.) Now, therefore, he (Mr. Baring) trlght he had goo d groun d s for stat i ng, t h at if sugar hcl be 6, more extensively supplied, at a reason able price, the consumption, WO consequently the revenue, would have greatly increased ; ancl it must be recollected that if any foreign sugar en tered, it -would not have been at 245. but 36 5. When bp bad Addressed the Rouse upon a former occa- sion, with respect to the sugar duties, he laid on the table of the House a document which showed the consumption of sugar, with relation to the population of...the country. When that article was at a moderate price, the quantity of sugar in molasses which had altogether been received in this country carts 4,233,000 cwt. If the average cal culation of the average consumption per head was taken for eleven years as a basis for ascertaining the quantity of sugar consumed, it would be found that it would amount to 4,445,000 cwt. in addition to what had been already received, which amounted to 758,000 cwt. Upon that subject, he (Mr. Baring) was anxious to refer to the opinions of a public officer, who, though he disagreed svith him on general topics, he (Mr. Baring) was desirous to express in that House the high estimate he had always entertained of that gentleman—he alluded to the late Mr. Deacon Hume.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Hume told himself' (Mr. Baring) that though he was not very friendly to the proposition of the Government, it was his (Mr, Hume's) opinion that it was 'calculated to increase the revenue con siderably; and with regard to timber, he thought he could also satisfy the House. There were, he believed, many Hon. Gentlemen, who voted against his proposed scale, of timber duties, who never doubted that it would lead to an increase in the revenue, as he had anticipated. The Right lion. Ba ronet had made some observations against his scheme; but he Would remind the House and the Right Honourable Baronet of something which had hap pened befgre with regard to the timber duties.— (Hear.) He should say that a remarkable forgetfulness had been shown of the occurrence to which he was about to allude.—(Hear, hear, hear.) In the year 1821 there was a Committee upon foreign trade. Thal Committee had published a very full and de too report ; he believed that Lord Wallace chairman on the occasion, and the presen, Lord Ripon was at the time Vice-President of the Board of -Trade. He did not mention that for the pur pose of criminating either of those parties—he was aware that in matters of finance men must change their minds when they received additional information. It would be absurd to attempt to fasten an imputation on a party, because after ten or twelve years he had altered his opinions on subjects of so intricate a nature, and he had not therefore the slightest wish to throw imputation upon any one by the observation he was about to make. But what were the recommendations of that Committee? They gave it as their opinion that, for the purpose of re lieving, and in order. to carry into operation the wisest principles, it was advisable that the differential duty be tween Canada timber and Baltic timber should be materially diminished. They stated that there were three courses open to the Legislature. They might increase the-duty upon Canada timber, a course the Committee did not recommend ; secondly, they might reduce the Baltic timber only, a course which they did not recommend either ; and thirdly, they might increase the duty upon Canada timber from a nominal duty to 10s., and reduce the Baltic timber from the amount at which it then stood. That .last course was the one which the Committee recommended, and theprinciple it involved was that which he (Mr. Baring) had adopted. It was said, indeed, that his plan was an imperfect one, but he did not believe there was any party that could be considered as an authority who was not satisfied that it was a step at least in the right road. On that occasion he had proposed to carry into effect that principle which he thought was the proper basis- upon which the com mercial legislature of the country ought to rest.—(Hear.) Now he would show them what was the result of that measure—what was the amount of revenue received from it. In 1820, the amount received for the duty in timber was 927,000/. He would not take the years 1821 or 1822, bnt he would next take 1823, and the result of the timber duties in that year was 1,552,0001. being an increase of 625,0001. on the then increased consumption oftimber. The consumer made no complaint at that time, and he should think from that time the consumption of timber of all sorts had increased. If he had gone into those details connected with the ar rangement which he had the honour once to propose to the House, he could assure them that he had not been induced to take that step by any personal consideration; with a view to defend himself, or with any obstinacy, to show that he was not wrong in the proposals he had formerly made.—(Hear, hear.) His object was one of much greater importance ; it was one of deep import ance, when they came to consider what they had to do with respect to the finances of the country. His object was to show that they had not exhausted either of the sources to which reference had been made. His object was to tell them that, when they came to look at the whole course which they had to pursue, when it was their choice—and he admitted that it was an un fortunate choice—to add, in some shape or other, to the burdens of the country, that there was none of that impossibility on which alone could be jus tified their recourse to the course they had adopted. The Right Hon. Baronet; in the statement which he made to the House, in a speech which, however, had differed from the .results to which that Right Hon. Baronet came, he could not but admire, had said, that the actual deficiency . he had to make up amounted to 2,569,000/. ; and including the expenses which he might be put to on account of China, and the late intelligence from Affghanistan, he thought the sum to be raised should amount to 3,000,000/, and leaving 500,000/. for other purposes, which the exi gencies of the country required, he proposed to raise an amount of 4,300,000/. Of this sum, leaving out 3,000,000/. required for the public service, there remained the sum of 1,300,0001., which he pro posed to dispose of in reducing the tariff, and other deductions of duty which he explained to the House. The House would therefore see that the Right Hon. Gentleman's proposition included not only the raising an amount of money, equal to the acknowledged wants of the country, but likewise a further amount of 1,300,000/. for th e purpose ofdealing with reductions in the tariff, and for thegeneral commercial benefit of the country. They ought to look a little into the principles of the plan which the Right lion. Baronet proposed. It was absolutely necessary for gentlemen feeling less strongly than he did in reference to the proposition of the Right lion. Baronet, when they were told that they would receive a new commercial tariff and a reduction on certain articles, it was but fair and necessary, he asserted, for them at least to consider upon what principles this new commercial code was pro posed, and what were the changes held out as tempta tions to the public, and the commercial community in particular, to submit to the income tax. They had looked at what those proposals were, and what the principles on which they were founded. The Right Hon. Baronet had stated that there were certain alterations and changes to be male, in consequence of typographical errors—he hoped they were no more than typographi cal—and which errors he proposed to rectify. But there was one principle which run through tins whole plan—a principle of which the Right Hon. Baro net - said nothing in his opening speech ; but which, in his (Mr. Baring s) opinion, was fraught with danger and alarm to the commercial interests of the country. What hail been the extent 'to which, before this, they carried their protective and dif ferential duties ? They had protected some of the great and leading interests of the Colonies, but never before this had they gone into all small and trifling details. But they had not laid down that principle throughout, that in every trifling case it was an im portant principle to have differential duties to protect the Colouies.(Hear, hear.) That was the principle which ran throughout the whole project of the Right Hon. Baronet.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition.) There is not a single article that was not made a subject of differential duty, whether it is produced in the Colonies or not. Take the. first article.--(Cheers and laughter.) Now, the Right Hon. Gentleman him self said that there As ere 1,200 articles in the tariff, and that he had prepared his project after the Cabinet had given to each article the fullest consideration. Having, therefore, delibe rately aonsidered the average' price of every colonial article—(Laughter) —the Right Hon. Baronet gave a protection of 100 per cent. to colonial asses.—(Great laughter.) Now, that reminded him of the expression used by the Right Hon. Gentleman himself, that " this was ridiculous legislation"—(Cheers from the Opposition) --to see a Cabinet sitting deliberately in council on the protection due to colonial asses.—(lncreased laughter.) Why in one place they gave a protection of 100 per cent. to eau-de-cologne, the produce of the colony.—(Loud laughter.) He knew perfectly well how that had been done. A principle was laid down—there was no con sideration of the absolute necessity for these pro tections—there was no consideration of the fa vour or protection due, to the negro population—th ere was- no fear of the supply of asses failing—(Loud laughter)—there was no fear of the supply of eau-de cologne not being equal to the demand if the Rhine should be shut up ; but there was laid down one prin ciple which was, that in all possible cases, and under all possible circumstances, they would create differential duties.—(Loud Opposition cheers.) That was the principle on which they had acted. (Continued cheering.) But even that principle had not been carried persons entir e ly em ployed c orki 'There a t Lgs a e . lie lead tt iad ). been told that by th e reductions th e y were ma ki n g in the tariff these persons, out )ioy justly. e t, inir who were the creatures of the protective system which bad been fostered in this kingdom, would have their in terest most materially affected. He did not tell them that for the purposes of carrying out the general pirnciples of free trade, they would have to remove thatprotecti ; they had no r i g ht t o d o so , but he would tell them that . these persons h a d a r i g ht, not unfairly, to complain they found th a t th e pro t ec tion was taken a_ wa a . - _from them ; but protectio n u p o n many articles of colotnal pro duce' had been i ncrease d, an d in many instance articles had been protected which had never before received pro tection.—(Cheers.) In the schedule there were no less than 246 new pr o t ec ti on s introduced ; many of them were said to b e o f so sm all an amount, that they were really not worth consideration. But he thought that man was not a wise man who would venture to foretell w h a t m i g ht be the ultimat e result of any protection, however small. He firmly believed' that a considerable portion of that inconvenience from which trade was at present suffering, arose from the injudicious attempts which had been made to-give protection to particular trades, at a time when it was wrongly thought they required the fostering care of the State,—(Hear, hear, hear.) Take another article which the Government proposed to deal with—this was tobacco, which chiefly came from the United States. The duty was 3s. At one time Mr. Huskisson thought he could grow tos bacco irl our American colonies, and he did therefore introduce a rpdppti o p pf 3d, in favour pf tobacco coming from the West Indies and North America against that of the United States. But this had not extended to India. But now he would ask of them to consider what they were about to - do. It was one thing to take away protection, and another thing to create it for people who had it not ' • the extension of that diff e rential duty which now stiJOd on their } l ooks would, he believed, not make the article a farthing chedper'to the English consumer, nor would benefit India, but the differential 3d. would be was taken out of the Indian revenue, and would place it in the pockets Of the East Indian speculator. Next, there was Assam tea—he really hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would not "compel him to drink it—(Laughter)— but he would pause to ask the Right Honourable Baronet what would be the effect of these new principles now introduced into the tariff; when he came to negotiate with other countries ? The policy of wiser men, in later times, had been to liberalise tariffs, and to reduce destructive And differen tial duties. But the Right lion. Baronet was so de voted to the opposite principle, that he would not allow even millinery to escape him. Then, when we asked foreign countries to relax their differential prin ciples in favour of us, they would refuse, and add, that we carried our differential principles to such an extent as to make ourselves ridiculous. And was there nothing to be considered as regarded the future ?—(Hear, hear.) All those several interests might be considered trifling or small in themselves. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) may ask " Whether you want to add to that difficulty —to that opposition which every man must find in attempting to advance one single step (Laughter) —in intro ducing those great and important changes ?"—(Cheers from the Opposition)—but it was for the House to say— when they looked back at those topics, and began to deal with those principles propounded by the Right Hon. Baronet, and to consider whether they were not worthy of their most serious consideration—the real question was, whether the people were prepared to undergo the pres sure of an income tax fin. the tariffs founded upon the principles of the measure proposed by the Right Honourable Baronet.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) He (Mr. Baring) did not now, for the first time, adopt the opinions which he h a d th en ex p resse d ; but he had entertained and expressed them year after year. When he had the honour of holding the office of Chancellor under the late Government he expressed those opinions. He would then apply himself to that which was the most importantconsideration for the House, he should say that he could not allow the proposition of the Right Ho nolirable Baronet to go forth without expressing the opinions entertained by him (Mr. Baring) in reference to that part of it which would press most heavily upon the country. He thought that the proposition of an income tax was deserving of the serious and sober consideration of the country. They should consider whether that im post, which they were now to be subjected to, should be carried on—whether there was any other possible and less objectionabl e mo d e , by w hi c h the money pro posed to be raised could be obtained.—(Hear, hear.) When lie came down to the House he had not the slightest notion that the Right Hon. Baronet intended to propose such a measure. He knew it would probably be necessary for him (Mr. Baring) and his friends to take a discussion upon the measure proposed by the Right Honourable Baronet ; and that it would be their duty to vindicate the principles of the measure which was proposed by the late Govern ment—to show,that it would be better to raise the sum of money proposed to be raised by the Right Hon. Baronet upon those principles than upon the principles and accord ing to the mode represented by the present Government. On hearing the statement made by the Right Hon. Ba ronet, he believed it was not the intention of gentlemen on this side of the House to have opposed any tax that might have been proposed from the opposite side of the House, or to enter into any party step or proceed ings, so as to - raise difficulties that would prevent the collection of the sums necessary for the public service. On this question —upon this tax only did they feel it ne cessary to give all that opposition to the proposal—the unfortunate proposal of her Majesty's Government, which they thought it merited.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Was this a just tax ? Was this an equal tax ?—(Hear, hear.) These were questions of deep importance for the country to consider. Was it fair that those who were in the permanent occupation of property—that those whose property descended from father to son, who may dispose of it as they choose, should be taxed no more than those whose annual inc o me depended not on their life or any particular age, but some casual accident, some unfortunate deprivation of sight, or some other of the many accidents to which humanity was liable, which might for ever deprive them of all chanCe of making any provision for their f am il y . He believed the Right Hon. Gentleman was already aware of what that large and influential body, the Bank of England, thought of the proposal which taxed equally the annual produce of permanent funded property and terminable annuities. He could conceive nothing more unequal, unfair, and unjust, than that mode of tax ation. He had heard parties state that this was the fairest and most equitable mode of collecting a revenue, but he firmly believed that there was no tax which would work more unfairly, more unequally, or cause more, dissatisfaction than this. He remembered when he was on that side of the House he had asked a question of the Right, Honourable 'Baronet —he was certainly rather unfortunate in asking ques tions of him— (A laugh)—as to what the Right Hon. Gen tleman would propose himself. He opposed his plans, and lie asked him what he would do. He believed .he would not have that question put to him to-night. He would not then shrink from the statement which he made when he had the honour of occupying a seat on the benches opposite. On a former occasion, when the mea sures of the late Ministry were opposed by the Opposi tion of that day,' he used the following language:—" I do not ask from Hon. Gentlemen opposite that kind of infor mation which was wrung from me last year to the inconve nience of the public revenue—not their particular taxes, but the general course which they are prepared to adopt. I do not call upon them to specify the actual taxes they may propose, but the 'general course of their policy."—(Hear, -hear.) Now he was not pre pared to give a budget to the Right Hon. Gentleman. Nothing, he thought, could be more indecorous and im proper than such a course. He should not certainly fed that he was justified in opposing even the present course of the Right Honourable Baronet, to which he objected, unless he thought that the other sources of the revenue offered a means of avoiding the calamity which he believed would follow the proposal of the Right Hon. Baronet.— (Hear, hear.) He had himself suggested last year a scheme for increasing the revenue of the country, but he would not go over the discussion of that scheme He had already explained the reasons which induced him to believe at the time, and which induced him still to think that money might be raised to meet to a great, if not to the entire extent, the exigencies of the State. He had proposed a plan by which he thought that a large portion, at least, of the public deficiency might be supplied ; and that pro posal was rejected. Could any- man tell him that with the enormous amount of taxation which had been repealed since the war, it was necessary to have recourse to so obnoxious a proposal as that of the Right lion. Gentleman ? In the Custom taxes there had been a reduction since the war of 7,500,000/. ; in the Excise there had been a reduction of 12,000,000/. ; and in the Stamps there had been a reduction of 866,000/. The Right Hon. Gentleman now proposed to levy a certain amount of taxation, not by direct taxes, but by another mode of taxation. The Right Hon. Gentleman stated that he did not mean that the income should extend to Ireland, but he proposed to give Ireland an equivalent for that tax, and he proposes taxes himself to the amount of 600,0001., Hatt was to say 400,000/. in Ireland and 200,000/. at home. Part of this was direct taxation. Did they mean to tell him that if they could produce 400,000/. from Ireland with this means of taxation, that they could not find means of restoring public credit without appealing to that tax—(Hear)—which had hitherto been considered as the last resource of the Treasury, and to be applied to only in cases of the greatest difficulty ?—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Vansittart, in the year 1819, came down to the House and asked for 3,000,000/. which he considered ab solutely necessary for the preservation of public credit, but he found taxes without applying to this last resort ; and certainly this raise of 3,000,0000/. did not bring down the public welfare, for in the years 1822, 1823, and 1824, a larger amount of taxes was repealed. from additional consumption and improvement in the trade of the country.—(ffear, hear.) He thought he ought not to delay the House, but there was one point on which the Right Hon. Gentleman had not given any explanation---as to the machinery which he might employ. He could not help, therefore, calling. the attention of the House to one important operation —he meant the petition of the merchants of London, when the previous tax was in existence This petition was agreed to at a meetinprstated to con tain all the wealth and respectability of the City of London ; and it had been stated in the House, that there had been an attempt to ge' up a counter petition, but this only received 23 signatures ; this petition came to the House expressing the. experience and feeling of the whole mercantile classes in London ; and they would remember that that petition was moved in that meeting by the very gentleman who had been the anther of the tax. Hear what was their experience and opinion as to the working of a measure similar to the one now before the House. The petitioners stated that a property or income tax was at variance with sound principles, and could only be submitted to in cases of the most urgent necessity, and that its operation upon trade and commerce would be most disastrous from its inqui sitorial character.—(Hear, hear.) They stated that during the late trying circumstances in which the country was placed they submitted with patience to the tax, though extremely vexatious, under the conviction that on th 3 return of peace the tax would be done away with. They stated that no modification of the details would be effectual, because, in their opinion, the tax was obnoxious in principle, and would be an alarming precedent, if; in time of peace, they had recourse to those resources, which would only be adopted when the honour and independence of the country was involved ; and I concluded by stating that the tax would be in jurious, not only in diminishing the domestic comforts and prosperity of the country, but to its prosperity and honour.—(Hear,) Such was the petition of the merchants of London, presented to that House on the 18th of March,- 1816, the anniversary of the day on which the Right Hon. Baronet came down to explain a similar measure to the Hoye, —(Cheers.) That petition was received with a shout of unaninions aPpianse by persons of all parties, He hoped that in the course he had pursued he had, es far as was possible, avoided anything 'like recriminatory language, but he certainly entertained the deepest and most sincere feelings with ,regard to the proposition now before the House—(Hear, hear)—and if they were to stand alone, he should be happy to have recorded his dissent from what he believed to be an unnecessary ta t The CHANCELLOR of the XCHEQUER said it was perfectly natnral that tha - Fight 'Honourable Gentleman opposite should haVe taken the earliest opportunity of stating his opinions of the financial measure of her Majesty's Qo'Vernraent l and he (the Chancellor of the gx.ehequer) had no complaint to make of the tone in which he (Mr. Baring) delivered nimself. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would ab stain from all recriminatory topics also and would confine himself to the arguments of the Right Hon. Bart. How ever, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) must express his surprise that while the Right Honourable C-en 7 tlemen expressed his surprise of the t.nett.inisVriVised4'6`t, avoided stating what plan he would himself pursue. He made is speech, but offered nothing for the House to decide upon, so that what course the Right Hon. Gentle man would pursue, was as yet unknown to the House. The Noble. Lord opposite said, that the Right Hon. Gentleman would vote against the resolution in Committee. He (the Chancellor of the Exche quer) therefore thought that it would be more consistent with ordinary usage if he had re served himself for the time when they could have tested the conflicting opinions of the House. As the Right Hon. Gentleman bad travelled over a long period and a great length of transactions, be (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer) would follow him along several topics. The Right Honourable Gentleman com menced by referring to the period when the deficiency in the revenue of the country now calling for a supply first began, for it was for the accumulation of deficiencies, which com menced in 1838-39 we had now to pro vide, and according to the Right -Honourable Gentleman's own confession it was the deficiency of that year that led to those necessities which now obliged the Government to lay on fresh taxa tion for the use of the State. The Right Ilon. Gentleman said he was justified in having permitted the large deficiency that occurred in 1838 to remain at the end of the year, for there were no extraordinary occurrences which called for a new tax on the public; and then' he eulogised that system of borrowing and temporary arrangement which had brought the present misfortunes on the country—(Loud cheers) — and which had entailed on the present Government, as it must have entailed upon any Govern ment the necessity of new taxing the public to repair the errors of their predecesscrs. The Right Hon. Gentleman referred to 1838-39, as if it was a time that promised permanent tranquillity and immediate ease, and required no provisions for the exigencies of the State. Had the Right Honourable • Gentleman forgotten that in these two years, circumstances were threatening enough to tell the Government that the finances of the country must not be allowed to fall into delapidation and ruin ? Had he for gotten that in that year we had the mis fortune to witness a serious revolution in Canada, to the causes of which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) need not now particularly refer. These occurrences threatened to involve the country in an increased expenditure for that year, and they had, in fact, entailed a great expenditure, which helped to increase the deficiency. Was there not enough then to warn a prudent Ministry that they ought not to go on, or if they did go on they ought to continue at a future time to avert the consequences. Not only was there a want of energy shown in not providing for the exigen cies of the country ; but it appeared still more from circumstances which he would detail. Unalarmed as the Government were—expecting the tran splant s to come, and unwilling to face the difficulty of new taxes—they reduced the balance of thecountry below the amount at which for a long time it had been maintained. (Hear from the Ministerial side.) At the period to which, referred, that is, the sth of January, 1837, the balance was 6,490,0001. On the sth of January last year it was reduced to 3,500,000/.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") And let not the House suppose that this was an inconsiderable evil, or one which they might put out of consideration in dealing with matters of finance. The balance was intended to provide for the payment of the debt due in January ; and, so far as it was reduced, the Government was obliged to re fer to the Bank of England by the issue of Exchequer Bills in order to meet the demand, thus they made the country dependent on that great establish ment, and deranged the currency by compelling the bank to limit its issuing for its own protection. The effect of the abstinence of the late Government from pressing on the people by the imposition of new taxes, was to leave an aggregated defi ciency for five consecutive years.—(ilear, hear.) This was an evil which it was impossible for the present G overnment to put aside in dealing with the finances of the country.—(Hear, hear.) The next point to which the Right Honourable Gentle man had adverted was with a view of showing his opposition to the statement of his Right Honourable Friend, that taxes on consumption had not been unproductive to the degree his Right Hon . Friend asserted. Here he must say, that the Right Honourable Gentleman must have been misunderstood altogether, for he bad extremely misrepresented the argument used on that occasion. He had supposed that his Right Hon. Friend stated that the additional 5 per cent. of duties not having raised the full amount of revenue expected, the 5 per cent. itself was the cause of the revenue not having in creased, But that was not the argument. His Right Honourable Friend wished to show that the consumption of the country was so effected by externalcircumstances at the present moment, that if he proposed to make the smallest possible, addition to taxation of this kind, the effort would neces sarily be unavailing. His Hon. Friend took the total amount of the customs for 1840 and 1841, and showed, by taking the amounts of there venue from this source, he showed a failure in the plan of the Right Honourable Gentleman. He told the Right Honourable Gentleman that he had included in his account the amount of the corn duty, which ought to have been ex cluded from the calculation.—(Hear.) Now, he was afraid that the Right Hon. Gentleman would not derive much advantage as to the main point at issue between them, from the observations he had made upon the statement of his Right Hon. Friend. The question the House had to decide was this, could they, with any prospect of raising a revenue, impose on articles of consumption, taxes to the amount of three millions ; or if they could do so with any prospect of raising the revenue they required, would it be without laying such additional burdens on the trading, manufacturing, and commercial interests of the country as would be productive of greater evils than another system of taxation which was open to them. He (the Chancellor of .the Ex chequer) had had a paper - . drawn up, stating the produce derived from certain articles of re revenue in the year 1840, and he had added to these several articles what would have been the produce of the per tentage which the Right Hon. Gen tleman had proposed to add to the several duties He then compared the total results in one ease and the other, shewing, and without the possibility of error, what was the proposed increase from the additional 5 per cent., and what was the actual result. It was useless to go into details on these subjects. He would, however, allude to one or two articles. On the arti de of coffee, the article produced according to the Right Hon. Gentleman's estimates of the imposition of the addi tional duty of 5 per cent:ought to have been 890,0001.—the amount actually produced was only 870,000/. That was taking the period in which the duty had beenreceived for the whole year. On sugar, the amount that ought to have been received was 5,117,0001.; the amount actually received was only 4,310,0001. On wine the amount ought to have been 1,998,0001.; the amount actually received was 1,806,000/. only. On timber the amount actuallyreceived had approached nearer to the estimate of the Right Hon. Gentleman, the amount that ought to have been received was 1,590/.. the duty actually received was 1,540/. There was a loss of rsvenue upon a list of 75 articles, none of which had produced the amount which they ought to have produced, if the additional duty of five per cent. had answered the expectations of the Right Hon. Gentleman: the loss thus occasioned amounted, in round numbers, to a million.- The same thing had taken place with regard to the'Excise Duties, on bricks on malt, and on several other articles. But, said the Right Hon. Genileman opposite, the First Lord of the Treasury has stated the question unfairly, and the Right Hon, Gentleman (Mr. Baring) went on to show that instead of a deficiency of 200,000/., he ought to have stated that an increase of 1,700,000, had taken place. The Right Hon. Gentleman had taken corn, and said that the duty paid in 1840 was 1,000,000/., but the duty paid in 1841 was only 500,000/. If the Right Hon. Gentleman would deduct the one amount from the other, he would find the balance added to the amounts already stated by his Right Iton. Friend would amount instead of a million to 700,000/. Mr. F. T. BARING made an observation across the table, which was inaudible. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in re ply to the Right Hon. Gentleman, said that Isis Right Hon. Friend, at the head of the Government, had throughout dealt with the gross account of the Ex chequer, and that was the only fair way, for unless they dealt with it in that way they could not know the effect which any tax would produce on the consumption of the country. A great establishment might be necessary for the collection of certain duties. A large amount might be col lected; although great deductions might be made from it -in its progress to the Exchequer —and if they dealt merely with the net revenue, they would not know the • effect produced on the country; the Government, therefore, lied throughout, dealt with the gross and not with the net revenue. Tue Right Honourable Gentleman said when an increased duty of 4d. per gallon had been proposed upon spirits in Ireland, that an opposite result would occur from that which was anticipated. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could give an answer to that charge. True it was he did propose to increase the duty on spirits in Ireland,- because he found that what he had apprehended in the measure proposed last year by the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite did not exist now. He found that spirits in Ireland had been increasing, notwithstanding the addi tional duty imposed upon it ; and he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was quite sure that the duty thety o n T e. s_p ße i i r g i h t s t in Ireland c ou ld b e i ncrease d w i t h ou t a ff ect i ng e i th , — spirit trade , or the morals of the people. - (tip Hon. Gentleman (M r . B ar i ng ) th' ) .11 entered into a defenc e the measure proposed last cession by the l a t e G ove rnmentHoef the Chancellor of the Exchequer) thought that that meas ure had been so repeatedly agitated, and the opinions of the Eloise had been already so well 14nown and so generally expressed, rh e in tbat lieuse and out of it, that it would not be necessaryet now for the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Baring) to adverttit. Bqt as the Right lion. Gentleman had advert d to the ° measure, !sad as it was made applicable by him to many of t arguments], he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) felt it neces sary to follow the Right H on . G entleman in the detail he had tt l yw io n n upon corn Gentlemanco havern ro; considerablys ie.ddtehbn the brought forward. The first proposition of the Right Ho p n. Gentleman n ohve w e rr a ne s v , me t et h ia tu a e t if sw. a st The efi adopted,xi d g h d ti u in h c e r l e a a t s e e d G t duty on corn then produced 50 0,000/. ; but if his prpposition of a fixed duty of eight shill:figs a quarter upon foreigncarn was t a n d e op p te o d ss , es i s n i s o t n ead of of the Governmentltlat 500, ethtehesruemwoouf 900,1 d now ooo 11 1. e o i n n account of the Exchequer. As the Right Hon. Gentle an held the (Ace of Ch ance ll or of the Excheqver, he, must have k own that in matters of finance two and two do not make four. It must follow then that if corn was admitted into this country as it was now at a duty of 3s. sd. a quarter, that it bpo w e o ew ul d nerra i oi l sef av dp e ü bi ye e h n tahs c ie o n n gß s i g rn t h w e t d o H u t l o o d n a . b b e r g e e n r a e t t a l eetime. r a e t x nh t a e tn n o , fBst a .h o e d a dqtuuhtaayrt quarter. a l; d e . That must be the effect of the measure of the Right lion. Gentleman as osa,thig alien dse_present year if the duty was increased to Bs. 'a spi er. (An on. Member on the Oppo sition benches here asked; " hat weald have been the price r") had What said a w i d o would f ha b v y e im been eo the g p a r n i; d h u e tl l . e u ft po i it o thethose n f wheat they would be starving the people and egg ue ' . l ces the existing distress, and producing all those cone/aqui:ell which had been made the subject of so much de, 4 or two. by the Gentlemen on the other side of the Howe for „ ebt days in succession. But his argument would reduce 1e would Pon. Gentleman to this alternative—either that he woul failed to obtain his revenue, from a diminished consenale.,4,:il or with an additional duty he aggravated the evils which of corn the present year had produced ; and he Co uld thu s have caused a further reduction in the consumption of those et ire import t t i a e a t l titles which, notwithstanding the unfavourable character tg`e season, they had been enabled to purchase. t , r ut/ Right Honour a bl e G ent l eman next a d ver ted to ne etc u op e o n n fie s m u agn atr o ; b,e a r n y cl ed , u on t a l s ia h t e su ha hj d ec h t e t ri h , e a e ß cu ig 3ed ht vain for a budg e t while he occupied a seat on the Min_l e ' tice a benches, he was happy to find that ho had at all o.ents "L o w additional light since he had been removed to a more fae" t u it ion situation. He quite agreed with the Right Hon. Ge e n e to be in thinking that the other side of the house apilear.,„ more favourable for that operation of fishing I v e;„ re . Treasury benches; for the Right Hon. Geniteman rduty member, that when he was in great anxiety to raise_ .0 _ du ,,, of about 700,6001. upon sugar, it was announced to !l e ' w i oul e tinctly from the Opposition side of the House, that if,‘ ,o oo/. only let the sugar duty take its course, the sun , °, l o ' d 0 ,1,1 -n-tight n - tight be raised without the alteration which he ni i ° voured to effect. He stated it not with any view:, v i t ' oe sly those who had made the st a t emen t ; b u t it a ppeared `list ba d from the facts bef or e them, th a t i s rea lit y t he st ear, u t 'l ooo . realised within a f e w pound s o f th e sum w hi c h tee ta i n ed Gentleman had required. That result, too, had without affecting the interests of the colonists byint r , stim ulue foreign commodity, and without giving an addition .l labo ur to the slave trade by discouraging the cultivation of free at sugar. &Lytle Right lion. Gentleman, after that Inew, foe s vshiiih seemed to be so useful to him since his retirenser;oh office, had found out that when he announced that 7t1,u .0 tes s as the duty he expected from his proposed charge , " to ha" labouring under some delusion, arid that he intended. toa d o f stated, or at least that he ought to have stated, tnat wag 700,000/. he anticipated a treceipt of 1,000,0001. B i a s f l ight certainly rather late at the present moment for tn „yea beenodoving Honourable Gentleman to correct his error after_„ b i e et. or eight months.had elapsed since the discussion of the t he He must confess that if he did not know the °f be Right Hon. Gentleman in every stat em ent that he i w ere should rather have conceived, if that statetnen.tssroeut made by another, that a sub3equent knowledge of aab facts had led to an acknowledgment of his previous er ues tioll But the Right Hon. Gentleman said—to forget that L y did and their discussing the sugar duties—that what t ot he was not only to consider the revenue, though nn t i a ted thought that the calculations could not have been substaittlej by if there were any validity in the statement then sulan4a,• the members of that Government. They (her ' 7 . 0 0 present Ministers) then objected that if they were aht en ia bout au inadequate supply of sugar raised by fry e suer in our own col on i es , t h ey would encourage th oe s raised by slave produ c ti on . I n answer t o that it le, stated by the N o bl e L or d, t o ca l m t h e f ears o f the P os e that slave-labour sugar wou ld on l y b e pro d uce d a t a tiln e n „ply there was an absolute necessity for its p r oduction to se,f the exigencies of the c run t ry ; and the Noble Lord bought 61s. Bd. as the price at w hi c h h e expecte d foreign saa-teoeght be introduced. If th e N o bl e L or d was r i ght w h en he 000 , it could only be introduced at 61s. Bd., then if the Righ t ar eet Gentleman would look at the price of sugar in the '" e , bad ' during the whole y ear , h e would find that the period n.°" l . of arrived when 61s. ad. was the price at which the s a g ;apt foreign colonie s cou ld h ave come into the eonsumed °° ,,, s sara country ;he must then b e p repare d to adm i t t h a t the wst was calculated either to r u in th e W est I n di a producesfouail-e not calculated to produce that revenue which he nove„Dossi in opposition to- hi s f ormer est i mate—that it might "e 'welt 1 bility have produced. But the Right Hon: G e ntleman, ap into calculations t o s h ow th a t we were under cons iders e hl s e ri ey prehensions no w as t o th e pro b a bl e i nsufficiency o f th of suga r d ur i ng th e ensu i ng year ; and in order to 5 11 ° . ' 2r io he had refeired to state men t s s h ow i ng t h e quant i ty of ,n g,i the bond this time last year, the quantity since received , a n ite ierl probability o f w h a t was yet to come. Considering the°,leiag that this House expre sse d as to t h e expediency of nc"asari encouragement to sugar the produce of slave' f the in opposition to th a t grown b y free-labour, eel' quantity of that sugar were sufficient for th e HA gumption of the country, he- thought the Rig"' l oll' Gentleman had not been successful as far as bit e ca The terra relatve t o th e p ro b a bl e defi c i ency was eoncerne`"otitl Rignt Honourable Gentl eman a d verted to t h e q f lb° of sugar in bo n d, an d if h e ( t h e Chance ll o r I st 0 Exchequer) unde r st oo d hi m , hi s statement was, la two the quantity i n b on d a t present had diminished; ....coed,' " therefore evident th a t th e consumpt i on of the year had to the the importation. H e th oug h t i t wou l d be satisfactory i 0 Right Honourable Gentle man t o k now that there ° ge s es) foundation in his (th e Ch ance ll or of the Exchggersbl° opinion for that s t a t ement. Th e Right lionase p to Gentleman founded his statement upon the rePrr e t . tions of the W e st I n di a b o d y w h en t h e subject was 0040 cussion last year ; that th e quan ti ty o f sugar in bond anri,ole to 35,000 tons, but he ascertained the quantity in ben d "' r esen t don, Liverpool, B r i s t o l, an d Gl asgow, did not a t P bell exceed 29,000 tons, and l oo ki ng to the account- 5 , s an came to his knowledge from th e West butirl po the one hand, and 'the East Indies on the other, he e reason to doubt that th e t o t a l quant i ty of sugar for the and, ing year would amount to between 260 and 280 ta rs i ; ,,any considering that th e l arges t quant i ty ever consnree"2o3 year was during the last year, and that the amount vras e e:lo* tons, the House would perceive that there was an alnl"T re il t ° , ket for that consumption which they all so much d ,_ eg *Bigh` to see.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to timber, tn e , theta lion. Gentleman calculated an income of 600,000/. ; h u e ",„sich was one consideration with respect to this subject, tu P the Right Hon. Gentleman never gave a definite ansWer_ ato was expected by the people et Canada, and it was ae re by the Government of this country, that when a mesas deeply affecting the interests of the people of Canada , 25 id be minution of the timber duties was proposed, they th e ° „, o allowed time to withdraw f rom a tra d e wh i c h had "`"tiele much altered. The Government also at tha t doer were in possession of the opinion of Lord S n il s ce , ham, who said that an alteration should not tak e t e e the within the year, but at some distant period, so as to ma ke the timber which they had in their possession come un der r er pstp o ohao l old yohs ueaddl s v(u c lea a ee l liol e demae o alfr f etede d rare u ftanr t too i ci e meno s net ; ehoi a initin n nht d tehwo w eihjo h oet: est,:henttreii theoperation , tns ooeonf ß fm, citegohaahrennt whether Canada Hon. Gentle!' la ° o l h the expressed opinion of the Governor-General hfi a elat t ht i m et hrt b heb e ae r ati ith t nee h rt eeeolna,:d:onestitati to a.. t o wait until a subsequent period. But thell o igh e t o H f C on i . na c e : t h i l f t y: man referred to the Report of the Committee of 1821 , P a t hat ing his measures with respect to timber. The Report sta te l otia when the duty on C ana di an t i m b er was 10s. that 0u R ig ht timber should be 55 5 ., and having ref erre d t o ;his, th e hit Hon. Gentleman asked the House to be guided b y the principles. But w h a t was the principle ty op Right Hen. Gentleman? It was to impose a new °et° Canadian timber w hi c h wou ld di m i nish the consulnP t t est that timber, and also by reducing a small amount " ria ct iet° paid upon Baltic timber which would not be sufficien', to tr y to an additional consumpti on o f t h at t i mber in this c°al.:os.sli reduce the compa ra ti ve diff erence b etween the two t o '' 45° having been, on the recommendation of the Committeeesd se Yet the Right Hon. Gentleman argued that he had a ct di ed the principle of the Report of the Committee of o' l ,, ar leaving the House in a state of uncertainty as to detail. 000 4 sawed them that from his plan he would have raised t, to the revenue. He (the Chancellor of chequer) did not mean now to go into the d e i tt ot" • that topic, not bei ng f urn i s h e d with suffic i en t ote ld !edge of the mod e th e Ri g h t H onourable Gentleman 1 ,1 eV pursue; but he (th e Ch ance ll or of the Exchequer) w°ll'a had verve, that doubling th e d u t y on C anadian timber iseene.o diminished it s co nsum pti on i n t hi s country, while t3s„loem 1-11th of the duty o n B a lti c t i m b er would have little an! we its consumption, aid that therefore its Opel ation would ha`',.,stee to inflict great injury on the produce of Canada, and g b ee i s injury on the feelings and affections of its inhabitants , ", prcr might possibly, though in no way that he could see, ha v ` e tea • duced the amount that the Right Hon. Gentleman e x Pde c ie' a . Having now referred to the topics the Right Hon G e e ° , (l b : introduced in connexion with his budget of last year, ", - , e stie - Chancellor of the Exchequer) would now come to a h t lieett that was far more important for the consideration of th e can —that was the mode in which the House was prepare up the great exis ing deficiency, which during five Y sot"' been permitted to accumulate, and in what manner they past impose burdens on the people the least oppressive , t n° , o far restrictive on the p rogress o f commerce, trade, and °nat.'', tures, and the most e ff ect i ve f or the purposes of the re o vie' (Hear, hear.) Th e Right lion. Gentleman said his 0e0 moo ; was, that we should still lay duties on ar ides of 0 10 1 lab o but the answer of Government was, that if those duties "b u s ter , made productive, yet in present circumstances it would lie fairer, and more conducive to the general i" the to take those funds which the State requires! 11.° „ iu dia ° , extensive capital of the country through the Aties of its income, than from laying on fresh burdens on 2 , 1 ; a ct ti lt ° of consumption —a course which, indeed, would au e l i sae:, higher orders in common with the lower, hut would f ,"%j9 5“•-• heavily on the middle and lower classes of society, tljen the principle on which the Government, and the Minh ) " Gentleman (Mr. Baring) w ere at i ssue. —(No, tee° affirmed that it was. The Right Hon. Gentleman t° j e eta r he held i n hi s h and a list of the taxes repealed since - t eere :. elusion of the war, subsequent to the Customs' duty , 3° amounted to 7,500,e00/., and lie pointed to them as '°l4l; from which they might turn to make up . the fickle: Jc t . ; fer . „ l4 * how could they increase the Customs' duties ithout ', n 9tc r ociPr, with the consumption of the people, and nu commerce and manufactures ?—( Hear, hear, h oic elOt the Excise, th e t axes repealed amounted to lea nos e t," Would th e Ri g ht H on. G entleman have them re'if the ~" duty on salt ?—( H ear .) H e (Mr. Baring) seed ;hoe 5 r come tax was inqui s it or i a l, and yet he recommeede" m ade ° vise imposts w hi c h, if not so inquisitorial as to t he „„eune,it col'ection, were most vexatious and injurious to the h'"" sa 0 0 turer. In . consequence of the reduction of the tides ehe ht become largely used in manufactures ; and there could Joe' doubt that the tax would be productive, and it t int' relieve those who had large money capital from s" c 1 ,. ‘ ; the income tax, they would have to pay. —( Hear, hea r ' ) be ' evil which it would entail on the manueuiturers ‘e" , este" greater than any that could be produced by the incor nL w (Hear, hear.) Would he return to the tax upon tallostoue files?—(Hear)—vvhich would fall upon a class of __af oid et!e who page certainly not the rich and wealthy, whe w e , won!! w suffering asth e s 0 a great pd t u l t i the income tax.—(Hear, hear.) I , ' a fte' to fall upon ye misery, is o Te o ; r :i e . t class Ia s always a n y f a t n e cl e'e f " oe i i ce ° ; He might go through the whole of 'tee Acise dut ies' Ther e were all more or less liable o the same objections• ogubly necessary to me-- • and daily c°";jureg , ..ey of their manufactures, to man n a t he more • xtended use, and while thus essential or _ 3, w it was equally necessary to the comfort of the lower d r Theo ther r e urt h express view to whose relief it was taken off. about 00 -I° ,llt the beer tax—( Hear, hear)— and that formed b "* 'en up of the amount of those Excise duties held by thudh b'eut r)—a . duty on an article indisp!noitite Hon. Gentleman as a model for their imitat o io_% tune, O m his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer'e) go d ara na to principle on which the Government repealed _ , em .er , ten years since, to repeal that duty—( e t :as the sh of m ore b el e somemakinghovers greater g e, and use fi ial t° t -e -ld ' V"' restore to the lower orders of society the when'. House wou health and strength He believed that the pathise with him to his unwillingness to re-impo se euroes te, ,, " . " , , , (Cheers.) There were other duties he might.'" cata to r ,u_ . oneof athebetmteorst abnilne i h . c he s r l e io l u ve h. l l .e n f o h t e g d o ta t i h es ro b ug ro h ug t h h t e furisard .Ithefilioentit ; g lit Ho n• the -° ( ',ecr from „, vigour and activity, would perhaps produce ews of the red, set"' the he Gentleman argued in in favour of opposition these duties, viGovernment'l and poorer classes the resources they rewired, instead te r Government, that the period had arrived when, ,_ gr ea ur , posing new burdens, we ought to endeavour to I Chancellor of the Exchequer) maintained, on wealth an d It that could only be effected by taxing the e.crs.) 0 relaxation to commerce and encouragement perity of the country.—(Hear, hear, and re cour 9 a the lion. Gentleman thinks we might .na. to t" objection _ et pfl to the assessed taxes. Now, what were the o _ and the house tax, iv reference to thew e .,,, t iene window tax a the ote to the classes they were anxious to relieve ? Were the subject to their effect on the wealthy, or were they not , complaint from all the middle orders of society, l“ ). ;: ve lbeg‘ gaged in the occupations of industry and trade, whose n` behalf ° t° gindustry, a THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 19, 1842