The Sun. — London, England, 1849-03-08 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 7. TRANSFER OF REAL PROPERTY. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL (in cantinuation from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday) said— By the existing law, however, the registration was not com plete evidence of title, but this Bill provided, by the 29th clause, that the party who had registered the document and evidence of his title after the lapse of thirty years should become the absolute owner of the lands to which the deeds and evidence referred. Now, by the interpretation clause, the owner of the land meant a tenant for life, with re mainder to his children, so that if a man who had regis tered a title to property were to die without issue his brother, or his brother's children, could not claim to be registered as the owners.—(Hear, hear.) That might, indeed, not be the intention of the framers of the Bill, but that really would be the effect of it.—(Hear, hear.) The Bill in fact took no notice whatever of remainders, while all the pro tection that was given to the public that a man should not register another's property, was that the party re gistering should give six menthe' previous notice in the Gazette of his intention to do so.—(Hear, hear.) But how could that notice prevent a party register ing his neighbour's estate with his own? True, the Bill provided that any party doing so should be guilty of felony, but what protection was that when it was taken in connexion with other parts of the Bill?—(Hear, bear.) The other provisions, indeed, were still more ab surd, if he might be allowed to use the expression; for in stance, the registration was not to be an open one, and any party who was desirous of searching the registrar could only do so by first going through the expensive proceeding of proving his title to the land he claimed. No such proceeding, however, was extol ted from a party who wished to register an estate, which, id his view, was rather a strange anomaly.—(!hear, and laugh. ter.) Then again, having proved his title, a patty was not at liberty to search himself, but was bound to depend upon the search of the registrar, and if he were dissatisfied with that search he could only search himself by obtaining en order of court. The Bill, however, omitted to specify how or where that order of court was to be obtained. He pre sumed, however, that the cheapest mode of obtaining such an order would be by summary applica tion to one of the Chancery Courts, but then of what ta . "avail Would even that be when the Bill provided that before a party could amend or annul an entry he must first, prove his title? The result then would be that the Bill would be productive of endless litigation, instead of amending the present system, and a party who might be anxious to put the owner of a'i estate to expense and trouble had nothing else to do but to register himself the owner ik the estate, which registration at the expiration of thirty years would give him the title, and before the real owner could annul this entry, he :must go through the expense of an action at law to probe his lit le.—(flear, and laughter.) It was a difficult matter indeed to secure an effective system of registration, and it was equally clear that if they could hit upon a perfect registration, it would be a great desieeratum, which the Bill totally failed to eupp!y.—(clear.) There were other parts of teis Bill which were no less anomalous than those he had already referred to, but he would not trouble: the H , use by going through them. He could, however, as • sure the Reuse, and the lion. Member who hadintroduced the Bill, that he had carefully considered it, in the hope tt finding that some of its provisions were calculated to remove some or the evils of the existing system, but he was satisfied that if it were referred to a Select Committee the Honourable Member for Surrey would find himself constrained to give up clause after clause as being impracticable, and that, in fact, the only improvement that could be made in its provisions would be to give the Bill up altogether.—(flear, and laughter.) Upon that view or the case he would suggest that the better course for the Hon. Member to pursue would he to withdraw the Bill for the present. He confessed he should not feel dis posed, feeling the strong desire that he did on the subject, to meet the motion for the second reading by an express and direct negative ; but he would ask the Honourable Member whether it would not be advisable to withdraw the measure with a view to the further examination and consideration of the subject, which it would be admitted was one of very considerable difficulty, so that with the assistance of others he might be enabled to - introduce hereafter a Bill which would carry into effect his own views and objects in a better and less objectionable mode. Mr. WOOD said he had listened with great anxiety to the speech of his Hon. and Learned Friend the Soli citor-General, but he regretted without any hope being held out that the desirable object which they had in view would be carried out more fully and completely than could be done by the present Bill. He feared, from the way in which his Honourable Friend ter urinated his speech that the prospect of so desir able an object being effected as that proposed by the present Bill was as indefinite as in 1832. In that year a Commission was appointed, which was composed of men of the highest eminence in all ranks of the profes sion, and of men also who were thoroughly acquainted with the theory and practice of conveyancing, and it Came to an unanimous coneusion that a Bill for the general registration of real property was imperatively demanded. That was not a new idea, but one entertained by every eminent lawyer, from Sir Matthew Halo downward ; and he must say that Honourable Members had not done justice to the lawyers, for they were the only persons who agi tated the subject until the Honourable Member had happily taken it up, but they were invariably opposed by the country gentlemen, who were the parties really interested in the matter. He could not help alluding to the words of Sir Matthew Hale, who, in the time of Charles 11., saw the extreme necessity of a measure like the present, and who took that large and compre hensive view of the mode in which land should be dealt with that was generally entertained throughout the country, but which was then confined alone to the enlightened few. He said that the regis tering of all conveyances would prevent much litiga tion, and do away with many opportunities which were afforded to parties to cheat and defraud others. He also said that in England our greatest inland trade was the buying and selling of land, and that, therefore, greater security ought to be given to creditors in that respect, and to persons who lent money upon the security of land, and that the buying and selling of land ought to be as free and un controlled as that of every other commodity. Chief Baron Gilbertson and Mr. Justice Blackstone, and every other legal authority up to the time the Commis sion was appointed in 1832, entertained the same view. That Commission not only recommended registration, but pointed out a definite plan by which it could be 'Carried out, and the conclusion they arrived at was not only participated in by lawyers but by the country generally. When the Noble Lord the Member for North Devon brought forward a measure in 1836, the House was counted out, there being only twenty seven Members present. Under those circumstances, it was perfectly refreshing when the Honourable Member for West Surrey gave notice of his intention to bring in a Bill of this description, and thought his (Mr. Wood's) name was upon the back of it, and al though he did not mean to follow the example which etas witnessed the other day, and to repudiate his con nexion with it, he begged to say that the whole credit of the Bill was due to the Hon. Member for West Surrey, and to the other gentlemen who assisted him, and that he only saw it after it had been prepared. Many of the objec tions which had been urged by the Solicitor-General he attributed to his not having had time, in conse quence of his numerous avocations, to look into the Bill, because many of them were totally inconsistent with the Bill itself. If his Learned Priced had told the House that the Government were prepared to bring forward another measure for a . complete, full, and effectual system of registration he confessed that he ,would have been infinitely gratified. A committee of gentlemen was appointed, two years next April, to investigate the subject, which they did with a great deal of earnestness; but they had only lately been told that the report was ready, and it would have been still further delayed but tor the notice of the Hon. Member. He did not mean to say that the Bill was completely effectual for all the purposes which it was intended to accomplish, but it was quite sufficient on the present occasion to maintain the principle of the Bill, and to show that it was capable of being fully considered in Committee. The objections raised by the Solicitor- General would be found in no way to apply to the prin. ciple of the Bill itself, which was to give some better security for the titles of land, and to diminish the in creasing expense of the present system of conveyance. —(Hear, hear.) The subject was too large to enter into all the existing evils ; but he would refer to a publication of Mr. Tyrrell, who was one of the Commissioners in 1832, in which he mentioned eight remarkable cases of fraud in consaed (pence of the want of a proper reg ister. A person h paid 20,000/. for an estate, but it was afterwards found • that the f e e was only held for three lives , a n d another claimant coming in three years after wards, he was obliged to give up the whole property, and so lost the whole of his money. Such a state of things ought no longer to exist. Frauds were every day being committed, and were becoming a matter of common Occurrence. England was the only country in the whole world which did not adopt the system of registration, and it had been established in France, Belgium, and Holland, and also in Ireland, and in some counties in England. When they made a serious change of the kind suggested, they ought to leave persons free to register or not as they liked, but when property was once registered every subsequent transaction or transfer with respect to it ought also to be regis tered in order to make a legal title. In Middle. hex the important business of registering was effected by the attendance of a merely formal personage, and not of those who conveyed or were otherwise deeply interested in the matter. No authentication was required of the accuracy of the statements. The objections urged against the Bill were more in respect of its details than of its principle, and the prep'. a rrangement of th ese details could be easily effected. He agreed w i t h the Learned Solicitor-General that the indices were the most important part of the . Billy but their nature would also suggestas they could aand msult, with that view, the indices used in Bavaria other continental states, as well as the plan reported upon by the Commissioners in 1832. It would be well for the House to take care that they did not adopt a stereotyped form of index, which could not be altered without an Act of Parliament. He hoped the House, being satisfied of the necessity for such a measure, would not consent to its postponement or abandonment, unless • her Majesty's Government would state that they would - undertake the preparation of a similar measure on the subject, which he regarded as one of the utmost public :importance. • Sixteen years had already elapsed since • the report of th e Commissioners of 1832, and if they bad to wait five or six years longer, it surely was time for the country gentlemen to bestir themselves, in order to get removed those improper imposts which at present pressed upon land. Every Honourable Member who had purchased land must be aware that the soli citors' charges were often as much for a small as a large property—sometimes the conveyance was 5/. per cent. upon the whole purchase.—(Hear.) Mr. SLANEY said, though he could not deal with the technical parts of the question, yet he was firmly im pressed with the belief that at no time was a measure of this kind more required than at the present moment. When all the great lawyers concurred in the necessity for such a measure, and they had a knowledge of the evils that at present existed, he thought it was time to pass a measure of this nature. If the Government thought the measure an unfit one, and ought not to be sent to a Committee up stairs, he hoped they would give an assurance that they would at the earliest possible moment bring forward_ a measure themselves. Though the present state of the law affeeted the opu lent and wealthy classes most injuriously, yet it operated with increased severity upon the middle and industrious classes, who were prevented from investing their savings, as no doubt they wished, in the purchase of land. The facility which they should possess for this purpose was withheld from them, and hence that stimulus to the culture of land and to industry, which it was the duty of the II .use to foster was in a gri at measure destroyed. Besides these classes had greater charges put upon them than the upper classes. It' they looked at the sale of land fur some years, they would find that, in consequence of the heavy legal and other charges, the loss had been equal to five years' purchase, for instance, in consequence of the difficulties of proving title. He trusted the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Drummond) would perse vere until a measure, with a similar purpose, was passed into a law. Sir G. GREY quite agreed with the Honourable and Learned Member for Oxford (Mr. P. Wood), that the House was much indebted to his Honourable Friend opposite in introducing the Bill before them. It his object had been to elicit the opinion of the House upon the expediency of establishing a general system of registration, not only with the view of keeping up the value of property, but of facilitating its transfer, and at the same time diminish the enormous ex pense, his object had been fully answered, since no opinion had been expressed hostile to the necessity of such a measure, however much some Hvn. Members might differ in its details.—(Hear, hear.) And looking back to the period, which many of them no doubt recol lected, when Registration Bills were before the House, it wes satisfactory to find to-day that a great change existed, both in the House and in the country, as to the benefits such as measure was calculated to confer. He should have no objection to vote for the second reading of the Bill on the principle that registration was required. He would not follow the Hon. and Learned Gentleman in detail; but would caution the House against consenting to the second readings of Bills because they con curred in their principles, since they thereby adopted details which perhaps had not been duly considered. Bills were frequently s,nt up to Committees, and were there remodelled, end rendered altege her different to their original state; and when sent back they were nut unfre quently preceded with as if they had stood as at first. With respect to what had been said by the Honourable and Learned Member, as to requiring a pledge from the Government that they would bring in a mea sure, he had to state that the Learned Solicitor-General considered that the present Bill would fail to effect the object for which it was introduced. He (Sir G. Grey) thought it would not be fair, under the present circum stances, to proceed with the Bill. It was now two years ago since a Commission was appointed headed by Lord Langdale, and composed of other men competent to deal with the question; and when the House knew that they would shortly report to the House he thought it would not be well to proceed with this Bill until the lion. Gentlemen and the House had seen that report. Tho Government could give no pledge as to what course they should adopt until that report had been presented. That report would receive the atten tive consideration of the Government, who would do everything in their power to facilitate the object which the Hon. Gentleman had in view. Mr. HENLEY could not give his consent to a measure of this kind until he had seen the details.—(hear, hear.) A registration was in force in Middlesex, York, and Ireland, and he had never heard it stated that any of the difficulties or expenses referred to had been thereby obviated. This Bill bad not effaced from his mind the great difficulties involved in the question. He agreed with the Solicitor-General that it would be better to withdraw the Bill, and to introduce another after the report of the Commissioners had been presented. The vast expense of the machinery was too great a matter to be lefties tho hands of a private Member of that House. Mr. EWAR r thought it would not be well to proceed with the Bill in the absence of the report, and intimated that he should vote against the Bill, but with this quali fication, that the Government should subsequently intro • duce a Bill. Mr. MULLINGS said the Bill would be attended with infinitely more expense than the present system. He had perhaps one of the largest conveyance, businesses in the west of England, and as a matter 'of., course vast quantities of property had passed through his hands, and he was prepared to assert that the present expense had been much reducei, and that the length of the conveyances was caused by the frequently numberless provisions which they contained. He must dissent, therefore, to the proposition of the Honourable Member who claimed support for the Bill, on the ground that it would reduce the expense of conveyance. Property was usually valued, not go much in regard to the claims of the owners, or their relations to it, as to its value and rental. He would undertake to prepare the sale of an estate, seized in fee, in ten lines; but where provisions were made for children and others, much language was reqUired. He could not concur with the principles of the present Bill, and he must, therefore, oppose the second reading. Mr. MUNTZ thought that something ought to be done, and must be done, in order to simplify the transfer of real property in this country, but it ought to be done without consulting parties that had no in terest. No plait would work well which allowed title deeds to be looked into by any parties other than those who had an interest in them. Mr. H. DRUMMOND having replied shortly, Strangers were ordered to withdraw, but in conse quence of The ATTORNEY-GENERAL rising to address the House, no division then took place. The Hen. and Learned Gentleman, on our re-admission to the House, was moving that tho Bill be read a second time that day six months. After some observations from Mr. IL Drummond, Sir George Grey, and the Lord Advocate, Sir ROBERT PRICE said, he should vote for this measure, and against the amendment, in order that the registration of estates might be simplified and their trans• fer rendered more easy. Sir H. VERNEY would support the second reading of the Bill, believing that it would be productive of great good. It did not go so far as he could wish, but still it was a step in the right direction. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House divided, when there appeared—. For the amendment of the Attorney•Goneral 45 Against it ... 55 Majority against the amendment A result which was received with loud cheers. The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed on the 22d. AFFIRMATION BILL. Mr. PAGE - ii,'o6D, on the motion being put for the second reading of this Bill, said that his conduct in proposing the second reading would be directed by the proceeding which might be adopted with respect to it by Hon. Members present. If the Bill were not opposed, he should confine his remarks to a very brief compass. If it were opposed, he should, of course, of necessity, enter at some length into the reasons for its adoption.— (Cries of " Not opposed, not opposed.") Well, then, he should simply content himself with moving the second reading of the Bill. The Bill was then read a second time and ordered to be committed on the 28th. LIFE POLICY ASSURANCE BILL. After a few words from the ATTORNEY-GENERAL and Sir H. WILLOUGHBY this Bill was read a second time. POOR•LAWS (IRELAND) BILL. The resolutions of the Committee on the Rate-in-Aid Bill were brought up by Sir W. SOMERVILLE, and agreed to. EFFECT OF THE POOR LAW. Captain PECHELL, in moving for copies of the se veral letters received by the clerk of the Godstone Union from the vestry-clerk of the parish of Brighton, with the answers thereto, respecting the maintenance of John Ledger, his wife and family, whose relief was withdrawn by the G o d s t one guardians, pursuant to the instructions of the Poor-law Commissioners, founded on the opinion of the law officers of the Crown, said that his object in mo v i ng f or t h ese papers was to abolish that odious system of oppression by which a poor man, if he had any means whatever of a partial sub sistance, was compelled to abandon his family The course of which he spoke was one in whiCh . a m an capable of serving his Queen and country was prevented from doing either by the unsettled state of the poor-law. The Poor-law Com m i ss i oners h ad in 1846 submitted a case to the law officers of the Crown, for-the purpose of ascertaiLing whether parishes who had in curred expense for removal before the Poor-law Amend ment Act was passed ought to be indemnified by others. The decision given was against the defrayment of suoh ex penses, and he might say also against the opinions of many of the highest legal men in the country. By this decision fully one-third of the pauper , p , (Tulation of this country had been made irremova ble. I his opinion was obtained in August, 1846, and yet no notice whatever was g iven of it to the several unions for more than two months afterwards. Nevertheless, although there had been several attempts to tinker up the poor-law, and he had repeatedly asked the Attorney-General in that House when the state of the law was to be settled, it was not until the 25th of November that the Queen's Bench had come to any determination of the matter. Yet, though the Judges had decided that the interpretation of the Act by the Poor-law Commissioners was correct, his (Cap tain Pechell's) constituents had rebelled against it, and were determined to resist it. He did not mean in any way to include an allegation against the present Hon. Member who was at the head of the Poor-law Board, when he designated their conduct as being in accordance with their usual course of bullying; neither would he allude to the l Ate President of the Board, whom no one could be lamented more than he was by him. When that Hon. Gentleman entered upon his office he had looked for better things; nor had he been disap.. pointed. He had evinced a constant desire t mitigate the operation of this law upon the condition of the poor, and had he been spared he might have been the irm+ra ment of much greater good than that which he effected. —(Hear, hear.) Ile had hoped that when the Honour able Gentleman who was now Chairman of the Board entered upon his office that the system was cleansed of all its evils, but it appeared that there had been so much that was bad mixed up in its constitution that eradication of the mischief was impossible. He said the House had great reason to complain of the way in which the whole matter had been treated. Al though the most eminent men in the House, and others out of it of great legal knowledge, declared it could not be the intention of the Act to settle persons who had resided five years in a place, yet the country for two years were kept in that extraordinary state by the Poor-law Commissioners.—(Hear, hear.) The Poor-law Commissioners in their annual report merely just noticed the fact. They said they had submitted the construction of the Act to the Attor ney and Solicitor-General, and they believed the country was generally satisfied with their construction of the law. That document was signed by George Nicholls and Ed mund Head. The House ought to have those gentlemen before it, to say why they mystified this subject, and why they kept the country in this state, by which parties were put to the greatest ex pense, and the poor to the greatest misery that could possibly occur. It might be said Lord Denman had given a dtci,ion which was opposed to the opinion of the Attorney and Solicitor-General. The present President ot the Poor law Commission acknowledged that the construction of the Act had been settled by Lord Denman, and parishes had been saddled with expenses wholly unnecessary. In one pa rish of Brighton the poor settled in the to en cost 1,168/. • and it was in order to get an explana tion from the President of the Poor-law Commission, and to rectify the diffinilty which the Poor-law Commis sioners had thrown oa the country, and in order to see what power there was to obtain a remedy from them, that he had brought this subject before the House. There might be three courses. The first course was to get the money from the persons who had caused all those difficulties. Mr. George Nicholls and Sir Edmund Head should be applied to for payment first of all, and in de fault of them he should look to the Government and the P .or-law Commissioners to reimburse the parish for the expense of their non-resident poor when the law was un settled. Then, again, the Hon. President of the Poor-law Board should bring in a Bill to enable parishes torepay this expenditure. He did hope something would be dune where so manifest an injustice had been created. The Poor-law Commissioners had had their amusement, and he now called upon them to pay the bill. The ATTORNEY-G ENERAL said his Honourable and Gallant Friend was aware that the Poor-law Commissioners could not have the papers under their control. As it was his duty, so he at once stood up and took the whole of this matter and the responsibility of it upon himself. The Poor-law Commissioners had no:hieg to do with the matter ; they merely acted on an opinion given them by his llou. Colleague (the Solicitor- General) and himself on the construction of this statute ; and he (the Attorney- General) was prepared to abide by that opinion. The question as to the construction of the clause was whether the proviso was retrospective or not, or whether it was clearly prospective. He and his Hon. Coll( ague gave the question the be.st consideration they could, and they came to an opinion upon the Ace, which they gave to the Poor-law Commissioners. They were not singular in that construction ; many Hotionourahle and Learned Members in the House and many lawyers out of it gave the same opinion, that the proviso was not retrospective. He (the Attorney-General) appre tended he did his duty in putting the best construction ho could upon the Act, and he was not to blame because he had not had he coeearrenee of the Learned Judges in his opinion. lie apple hended that no blame could attach to him be cause, lie gave an opinion two years age upon the con struction of an Act of Parliament, which the Court of Queen's Bench had since overthrown; nor could the Poor-law Commissioners be blamed. They had nu power to send a case before the Queen's Bench, though he, in his capacity of Attorney-General, mooted this mat ter in the Queen's Bench on their behalf - , but the Court held that they had no right to decide sooner for one party than another.—(Hear, hear.) In this case then there was no ground of complaint at all. He alone was responsible for the opinion he had given—not the Poor-law Commissioners, and he was prepared to take it upon himself.—(llsar, hear, and cheers.) Lord DUDLEY STUART said, notwithstanding what had been stated, it was quite clear that the opinion:of the Learned Attorney-General was wrong, and that his Hon. and Gallant Friend the Member for Brighton was right.—(Hear, and laughter.) The con stituents of his Hon. and Gallant Friend had, in com mon with others, been put to a great deal of expense by the opinion of the Learned Attorney-General, and the complaint therefore of the Hon. and Gallant Gen tleman was not ill-founded.—(Hear, hear.) The papers then ought to be produced. The ATTORNEY- GENERAL—And so they will be. Lord DUDLEY STUART in that case had nothing further to say.—(Hear, and laughter.) Mr. HENLEY gave it as his opinion that neither the law officers of the Crown nor the Poor-law Commis sioners were to blame in the matter. Certain parishes had applied to the Poor-law Commissioners for advice as to the construction of an Act of Parliament, which led to their laying the Act and case before the Attorney and Solicitor- General for their opinion, and in their pri vate capacity the Poor-law Commissioners had forwarded it to the various parishes throughout the country for their guidance in arriving at a proper construction of a diffi cult Act of Parliament, but it was quite optional for those parishes to adopt the advice or not; and he hoped the House would not consent to re-opening ot the ac counts which had been incurred in consequence of the opinion. —(Hear.) Mr. BAINES could assure the Hon. Gentleman that the Poor-law Commissioners had no power whatever to consent to the opening of the accounts, which had been audited and finally settled.—(Hear, hear.) His belief was, however, that the parishes had not suffered much from the opinion of the law officers of the Crown being upset by the Court of Queen's Bench, for parish A might have gained by one class of paupers and parish B by another; but, at all events, the loss, if any, had not been so great as was repre sented by the Hon. and Gallant Member who had in troduced the subject.—(Hear, hear.) The Poor-law Commissioners whom he had the honour to suc ceed were not to blame in the matter, for all they had done was, not to advise certain parishes as to the course they had to pursue in referenco to a particular Act of Parliament upon their own responsibility, which they had no power to do, but lay a case before the At torney and Solicitor-General and forward their opinion to the different parishes as the best advice that could be obtained on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. BANKES thought the Hon. and Gallant Mem ber who had brought forward the motion had more cause for complaint than seemed to be allowed by many Hon. Members who bad taken part in the discussion. He felt that a degree of blame attached to the Pour-law Commissioners for having advised the Government to resist his suggestion to introduce a declaratory Bill, and at once get rid of the difficulty which arose from the construction of the Act. Under thesecircumstances, the parishes had no option but to follow the opinion of the law officers of the Crown, and on that ac count the complaint of the Hon. and Gallant Member was a perfectly just one.—(Hear, hear.) The ATTORNEY-GENERAL perfectly recollected the Hon. Member making the suggestion to which he had just referred, b u t th lion. Member was wrong in supposing that the Poor- law Commissioners had advised Government not to adopt it.—(Hear, hear.) The fact was the Committee which was then sitting upon the poor-laws determined that a declaratory Act ought not to be introduced. Mr. BANKES said the Learned Gentleman was not quite correct. He happened to be a Member of the Com mittee, and he proposed that the first thing they should consider was this very Act, with the view of introducing a declaratory Bill. His proposition was however rejected. Captain PECHELL was glad that the papers were to be laid before the House because the matter could not rest here.—([fear, hear.) He considered it his duty to follow up this subject, because he considered the House would not sanction so great au act of injustice as that which had arisen from its bad legislation. PENSIONS, &c. After some further discussion, the return was agree Mr. HUME moved for the following return, with some slight modification, which was not distinctly heard in the gallery:—A list, alphabetically arranged, of all persons in England receiving salaries, pensions, pay, profits, fees, emoluments, allowances or grants of public money, between the sth day of January, 1848, and the sth day of January, 1849, the amount of which exceeds 200/., stating the total amount received by each individual, and distinguishing the sources from which the payments are made, and the aggregate of the whole ; similar list of all persons in England receiving salaries, pensions, pay, profits, fees, emoluments, allowances or grants of public money (not including those persons paid by wages), be tween the sth day of January, 1848, and the sth day of January, 1849, the amount of which is not above 50L, and not exceeding 2001. sterling each person, the total amount received by each individual, and distinguishing the sources from which the payments are made, and the aggregate of the whole; so as to exhibit in those two lists every person in Eng land in the receipt of upwards of 50/. from those and from all other sources of public money (the Church ex cepted). Also, two similar lists for . Scotland, and two similar lists for Ireland.—Agreed to. - ;;.'1‘11E SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY EVENIN6, MARCH 8, 1849. terms of friendship, things were not in a very satisfac tory state. True it was that there was no war, and he begged to say that he was as much opposed to war as the Noble Lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and that he was most desirous to promote an amicable and peaceful policy, and would avoid all those acts which would by any possibility tend to disturb exist ing tranquillity, and which would lead to hostility, and when they saw at present, wherever they turned their eyes, that our relations were not of that amicable de scription which was desired, he felt authorised in bringing the subject before the attention of the House.—(Hear, hear.) He would touch for one moment upon the events of last year, and draw the attention of the House, in the first instance, to our relations with the kingdom of Spain. At an early period of the session, last year, our relations with that country were not of that amicable nature which was desired. Rumours of an unpleasant description were afloat, and questions were put to the Government which elicited only very short answers, until at last those ques tions were interrupted by a signal fact, viz., the arrival of our ambassador, who had been sent away from the Court in disgrace, the whole particulars of which had never yet been c xplained to the House. In reference to the matter, ho submitted a motion to the House in the month of June last, and one of the highest authorities of the House told him that the motion was premature. Not meeting with that degree of encouragement, without which he had no desire to trouble the House to vote upon any subject, he did not press his motion to a divi sion, and indeed the Noble Lord (Lord Palmerston) would not give him an opportunity of having a direct division on the subject. Up to so late a period as last week proceedings had taken place with regard to our relations with the Court of Spain, but in that House they had heard nothing upon the subject of them. It was with the recollection of what passed with regard to Spain that he took the opportunity to refer to another branch of our relations—that was our rela tions with the kingdom of the Two Sicilies. Then it appeared that the King of the Two Scilies had, unfortunately for himself, invited to his Court a diplo matic agent of this country, who had been instrumen tal in fomenting insurrection in Italy, and latterly rebellion in Rome.—(Hear, hear.) His efforts, how ever, were ineffectual in putting out the flame which he had raised, and having made every place too hot for him he came home. The presence of such a nobleman was sure to have its natural effect upon the insurgent party, and an opposite effect upon those who were arrayed against them. What were their re lations with Sicily when these negotiations ceased he did not know, as no official accounts had been furnished. They had, therefore, to rely upon the accounts published in the newspapers. If, in point of fact, Sicily did become an independent notion, it was only right--it was absolutely necessary that the Houses of Parliament should have been in formed of a great change of that description; more especially should the Houses of Parliament have been informed of such a circumstance, since such a course was opposed by the treaty of Vienna. Then, again, the King of the Two Sicilies was recognised in the Queen's Speech es thi n g o f Naples; and they had beets left to form their c/hjectures as to the cause. Subsequently they learned from rumours floating terough the town that arms had besn permitted to be sent by that authority for the supply of the insurrectionists early in the past autumn. Though he (Mr. Bankes) knew that arms had gone from this c ou ntry, l ie cou ld n o o s t iti b o c n .lic i v n e t t h h e at ec t , i tt ie n y . had gone as ith the cognisance of a Cabinet Minister, occupying a high p cils of his couutry—he heard, therefore, with surprise the Noble Lord not only acknowledge that the fact was perfectly true, but that he saw nothing objectionable in it. He must, therefore, at that tune, have considered Sicily an independent state, since on no other ground could such conduct be justified. There must surely have been a time when he acknowledged the independence of that kingdom. It appeared that the contractor employed by the Sicilian insurrectionists applied to the Ordnance office for arms, because he had not time to get them elsewhtre. The Ordnance refused to comply with his request, and the matter was referred to the Noble Lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. H e did not know what degree of control the Noble Lord possessed over the Ordnance department, but of this he was satisfied, that the Ordnance-office would not act without his authority, and that he gave it and did not deny that he had so acted. He could not conceive under what circumstance it could be right to give the high sanction of the authority which the Noble Lord held in the country to the arming of insurgent against their lawful King, supposing there had been no "distinct recog nition, on the part of that King, of the in , dependence of the revolted province. There were other circumstances of a peintul nature to which he might allude, such as what had been stated positively in that House had been denied in the other, but he would not further advert to that subject. He would merely conclude by making the motion of which he had given notice. He understood there was no objection to the substance of the motion, but he (Mr. Bankes) adhered to the whole statement, as he believed it was the only way of eliciting the truth. Lord PALMERSTON said that it was true, as the Honourable Gentleman had stated, that he should have no objection to produce the papers he moved for ; but he felt bound to object to the latter words of the motion, because it implied opinions with respect to the question between the Sicilians and this country which the House was not in a condition to decide upon. He had no objection to the ulotion for the account of all arms furnished to the Sicilians, but he must object to that part of the motion in which the Hon. Member called the Sicilians insurgents.—(Hear, hear). The Hon. Gentleman had stated that there never was a fitting and proper time to be found to discuss fo reign questions in that House. He must, however, compliment the Hon. and Learned Gentleman on having found out a time which he had thought fitting and pro per—namely, the time when he was perfectly ignorant of the matters that were pending.—(Cries of " Hear, hear," and laughter.) The House was not at the present moment in possession of the documents to oorrect the fallacies of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. He (Lord Palmerston) wholly denied the second assertion of the Honourable and Learned Gentle man. It was true that when discussions were pro posed on matters of intricate foreign negotiations, when those discussions were brought forward at an improper time, that it was the duty of the Government, and he had invariably adopted that course, to decline entering into a discussion founded upon papers that had not been laid before the House; but he had never declined entering into a discussion founded upon papers that had been laid before the House. Those who wanted to find fault with the Government, that adopted such a course, were to blame, and not those who really wished for information.—(Hear.) There was a great difference on this subject, as on many others, between the Hon. and Learned Gentleman and himself; he seemed to consider that all persons who took up arms in vindi cation of their rights were insurgents.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Gentleman belonged to the old school, who thought there was .4 A right divine in kings to govern wrong." —(Hoar.) The Honourable Gentleman had stigmatised the Sicilians as insurgents—h e wo u ld n o t go i n t o th e question; the Sicilians had had a constitution for cen turies; enjoyed und e r th a t consti tution hadthe righ ts been confirmed by their Sovereign in 1812, when their ancient constitution was remodelled and reformed. At that time their constitu tion was sanctioned, article by article, by the word of iFilia ns rose i n arms to assert He (Lord Palmerston) asserted, i non, th e y did so f or t h e purpose theirt th h e e of asserting a right that had never been abrogated. He r S e f o roi v gr e eh r , e t s i t g ht n ao t o: the efont hs d te. a i t y us . could not concur with the Honourable Gentleman in stigmatizing the Sicilians as insurgents.—(Hear, bear.) The Honourable Gentleman had said that the rela tions of this country with foreign Powers were not in the situation he should wish to see them in.— (Hear.) H e (Lord Palmerston) thought some of the views of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman would lead this country into that condition with foreign Powers he did not wish 'to see.—(H ea r, h ear .) H e (Lord Palmerston) denied that the relations of this country with foreign Powers were in an unsatisfactory state.—(Hear, hear.) He asserted most unhesitatingly that the character of this country stood high with foreign Powers, and that the moral influence of this country—a moral influence founded upon the good sense and en lightened conduct of England —was great among foreign nations. Foreign countries had seen, in the midst of events which had shaken other countries to their very centre—(Hear, hear) --this country “ fell not, but stands unshaken; From without and from within'gainst all temptations armed.' , —(Loud cheers.) And that had given confidence among foreigners in the people and Government of England. Foreign nations felt that the British Govern. ment and the British people were fitted and willing to give advice when asked—(Hear, hear)—and that advice was valued and respected, and not spurned and condemned, as bad been asserted by the Hon. and Learned Member. The Hon. and Learned Gentlemen had adverted to the interruption of the intercourse between this country and Spain, and bad complained loudly that no information had been given on the subject. All he could say was, that the papers on that subject were laid on the table of the House last year; and it nothing had been dune upon the subject, he was not to blame for laughter.) Tt e . it, and th e f au l t l ay w ith the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, an d no t with the Government. — (Hear.) They might remem b er that the Hon. Gentleman had a wonderful, but a so mewhat defecti v e , and certainly a very short memiry.—(Hear, lion. Gentl eman h a d re ferred to the mission of Lord lleienntoestsoenNtiaaplllyes,mainsedhhieavdosutsareidn that his interfere nce h a d b hear, provokingand thehostility between the King of Naples and his Sicilian subjects. Be would again tell him that he was wrong in his facts as well as in his conclusions.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord left this country on his mission on the 17th December, and reached Naples on the 6ch of February. He presented his credentials on the 7th of February, and yet the lion. Gentleman asserts that the disturbances which occurred at Messina were in consequence of the excitement pro duced by Lerd Minto's declaration after his arrival in December.—(” Hear, h ea r," from all parts of the House great cheering, an d l a ughter.) Now, with respect to the mission of his Noble Friend, the Hon. Gentleman said that the principal object of it was to excite the subjects to rebel against their sovereigns.—(Hear.) Mr. BANKES —I sa id j us t the contrary. I said, no t that he e xc it e d the su bj ects t o rebel, but that such was the effect of hi s act i ng on his instructions.—(Hear, hear.) Lord PALME RSTO N—Th e Hon. Gentleman was so much accustomed to pro d uce e ffects which h e never desired t h at h e (Lord Palmerston) was net at all sur prised at his confounding intention with effect on the present occasion. Now, he denied the Hon. Member's assertion with respect to the effect as well as the inten tion. It was not true that any such effects as had been ascribed to them had been produced by the exertions of his Noble Friend. Lord Minto was aware when he went on his mission what was the object of it, and that while his first duty was to procure the fulfilment of the articles of the several treaties, his next was to bring the opposing parties into a pesitioa of mutual peace and ainity.—(Hear, bear.) The ilonour able Gentleman might as wed say that the mission of his Noble Friend to Rome in the beginning of last year, was productive of the events which occurred at the be ginniug of the present, or rather at the close of last year. —(Hear, hear.) Now, he could tell the House that the interference of Lord Miuto was at the express request of the King of Naples, or as the flonouralde Gentleman wished in strict diplomatic phrase to designate him, the King of the Two Sicilies—that interference was at the ex press request of the King himself.—(Hear, hear.) Now the Hon. Gentleman misread treaties. He asserts that the title of the King of the Two Sicilies was con ferred by the treaty of Vienna. It was very true that by that treaty the Sovereign was empowered to enter upon his dominions. Mr. BANK ES—With the title of the King of the Two Sicilies.—(Great laughter and cheers from the Opposition, and counter• cheers from the Ministerial eeeches.) Lord PALMERSTON—True with the title of the King of the Two Siciiits, but though King of the Two Sicilies, he was in fact King of Naples, But title did nut give a right to territory, and it was just as reasonable to question the justice or the courtesy of any men who used this mode of address as it would be for any one to suppose that, because the sovereign of this kingdom was formerly styled King of England and France, he was necessarily entitled to a portion of the territory of that country.—(Hear, hear.) Besides, the right to territory or of title did not give the right to overturn constitu tions. The title was one thing-, the territory was another.—(Hear, hear.) He regretted that the Hon. Gentleman had not waited until the papers con nected with this subject were laid on the table of the House.; Ile regretted it especially because, although it was better fin. the Hon. Gentleman, it was worse fur the House.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) These papers would diselo;e what he now might tell him, that it was the most earnest desire of her Majesty's Go vernment to continue the friendly relations of this coun try with the kingdom of the Two Sicilies. That had been the desire of the Government at all times, and never more than during the period when these negotias dons were pending.—(Hear, and cheers.) The desire, indeed, was at all times expressed, and expressed to preserve a perfect union between the Sicilies and England.—(Hear, hear.) Now, with regard to the papers he had no sort of objection to produce them.—(Hear.) Then, with respect to the papers regarding the matter to which the Hun., Member had alluded of the arms which had been supplied to the Sicilian insurgents. The contractor for the supply of arms to her Majesty's Government had sent in a certain number of iron gums. Having a contract also for Sicily, that gentleman had applied for leave to take them out of the stores to send them to that island. He had been applied to by the official authorities on the subject, and he had, with out hesitation, given his assent for that purpose.— (Hear, cheers, and counter-cheers.) But it was done in a moment of inadvertence; and, as such, he stated it. Upon a review of the circionstances, however, and con ceiving that such a proceeding might he offensive at the Court of Naples, her Majesty's Minister at that Court had been duly instructed to explain the matter.—(Renewed cheering, and counter. cheering.) Let not Hon. Gent emen suppose that this fact was with out a precedent—(Hear, hear)—or that it was an in variable practice. The Government of France had al ways allowed the sale of arms out of the public stores for any people or kingdom whatever.—(Hear, hear, and cheers, and repeated cheers.) He had no objection, he repeated, to produce the papers with this alteration in the terms of the motion, that the words after 4` to the" should be left out, and others substituted, which would prevent the publication of the political portion of the affair.—(Cheers.) Sir J. WALSH said that the Noble Lord had entered upon an unusually discursive course on the present oc casion. But he would rather follow his precept than imitate his example, and confine himself simply to the merits of the case. He did not perceive that the Noble Lord had in any respect answered the observations of his Hon. Friend, nor had he in any way shown that the duty of this country had been tulfilled under the treaties into which we had entered at the Congress of Vienna, and which the mission of Lord Minto had made more difficult than they were, if not impossible. It was simply this —were we neutral in the struggle giiing on between Naples and Sicily, was the position of Eng land that of a neutral power, and if so was this transaction inconsistent with the position and character of a neutral power. That was the plain question which was raised by the motion of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Bankes).—(Hear.) It appeared that a contractor applied to the Ordnance for some of the Queen's stores, for the purpose of sending those arms to Sicily; that the Ordnance applied to the Noble Lord, and that they received the sanction of the Noble Lord for issuing those arms out of those stores. It did appear to him (Sir J. Walsh) that this veil of the contractor was so transparent and so thin a pretext that it utterly failed. It was impossible to argue, with a perfect knowledge of the facts which the Government seemed to have had of the contractor not concealing the purpose for which he ap plied for those arms, but that it was just as much the act of the Noble Lord and the Government, as if they had directly sent those arms on the applica tion of the Sicilian Government. If there was a difference, there was something unworthy the character of a great nation in effecting thie object by so indirect a means. That was not the whole of this transaction. The Noble Lord had very acutely dwelt at considerable length on those general topics; but he scarcely adverted to his (Sir J. Walsh's) Honourable Friend's motion. He disposed of it in his light, easy, flowing strain, in some five or six sen tences, and then he sat down; but the whole of this transaction was not even now fully before the House of Commons. It appeared there was a reconsideration of this question. The act of the Noble Lord had come more formally before the consideration of the Govern ment—(Hear, hear)—and it appeared that the act of the Noble Lord was not approved of by the ma jority of his colleagues.—(Hear, hear.) His (Sir J. Walsh's) Hon. Fri en had remarked that the House of Commons was almost the only society in which topics relating to foreign affairs were almost tabooed, a subject on which the House was scarcely allowed to enter ; but there was another society in which there was a similar exclusion, and that was the Cabinet. —(Hear, hear.) It appeared the Noble Lord mono polised the whole management of those things without any communication with his colleagues, and that after wards, when those subjects were brought on more formally, the Government felt it necessary to disavow them ; and their instructions were given by the Government to its Ambassador at Naples that if any explanation was de manded it should be said to the Neapolitan Government, on the part of her Majesty's Government, that such a step was inadvertently taken, and was taken without due regard to the consequences, and taken hastily, and without fully weighing the construction that might be placed upon it. He said that was a position which he deeply regretted that this country was placed in. He said those apologies and those retractations for that equivocal and clandestine act struck at the honour, and character, and reputation of this great country. Ile did say, when the Noble Lord dilated in his easy, flowing manner on the moral force which England possessed, and on the weight which was naturally attached to her great character in all her diplomatic transactions and proceedings of this kind, underhand in the first place, and disavowed and apologised for in the second, were calculated to weaken and destroy that moral force. That was the real ground, and the very narrow ground on which the question stood. He and his Hon. Friend (Mr. Bankes) did not intend on the present occasion to raise the general question of the politics of Sicily, or to go over the field of Neapolitan and Sicilian affairs. His Hon. Friend made this distinctive motion in order to invite the attention of the House to the matter which he had brought before it. Mr. MACGREGOR said, if he had known this ques tion would have been brought under discussion he would have brought facts and statements to bear upon it which would have given it a very different complexion. He would say, if the Noble Lord the Se cretary for Foreign Affairs could have been justified in any interference whatever with the affairs of other countries, it would have been in the affairs of Sicily. He did not think there had been anything like that interference with which the Noble Lord was charged. He (Mr. Mac gregor) knew that country well, and had travelled over many countries called despotic, but in no country did he ever see so many military executions for pre sumptive crimes as in the island cf Sicily. The Sicilians had acted with the greatest harmony, and there was the greatest domestic tranquillity. With respect to what was done either by the English or French Admirais, he considered it was neither more nor less than two gentlemen walking across a field, and who interfered to prevent a great many people from ill-using a woman and her children. That was what was done at Messina. There never was a greater act of humanity than that done by Sir William Parker with regard to the people of Messina. He (Mr. Macgregor) had no hesitation in say ing the Noble Lord the Secretary for Forcing Affairs had done more to preserve the peace of Europe since the beginning of 1848 than any Minister who bad ever had the management of foreign affairs in this country. —(Elese, hear.) He said that not from any personal feelings, but merely from his (Mr. Macgregor's) own actual experience and personal knowledge, and his com munications from other countries. Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL congratulated the Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, on the full determination on his own part, and on the part of the Ministry, to recognise the entire right and justice of a nation to demand the government of its own affairs.—(Laughter.) Ile trusted he should have the benefit of the Noble Lord's support when Ireland made the same appeal.—(Laughter)--tor the case would be equally as strong as that of the Sicilians. The Irish people had advocated their rights by peaceable and constitutional means. He congratulated the Noble Lord on his approximation to better principles.— (Laughter.) He had said there was no divine right in kings, neither was there a divine right in a Parliament. The Noble Lord also said that a country labouring under circumstances of misfortune was not made for sovereigns and governments to trifle with. Neither, he would add to this, was the Irish nation made for sovereigns and governments, ar.d though the people of Ireland had great agection for their Sovereign, they had no attach ment for her Government. The Noble Lord spoke also of an ancient constitution which ought always to be re cognised. He (Mr. O'Connell) would remind the House of the ancient constitution of Ireland—(A laugh) —which had endured for 800 years, and which was dis tinctly recognized in 1782 by Parliament, for in the words of an Act which was then pissed it was declared that the rights of the Irish nation bad been established for ever.—(Hear, hoar.) The nation, how- ever, was deprived of those rights by succ-ssive Parlia ments; but he hoped when he brought the subject more formally in der the consideration of the House he should at least have the support of the Noble Lord.—(hear, and laughter ) He felt that he ought not to sit down without saying a word or two as to Lord Minto's peace ful mission.—(Laughter.) " That mission," said the Noble Lord, " was one of peace and consolation."—(A laugh.) Well, they had no means of judging what in structions were given to Lord Minto, as they had not seats ia the Cabinet, nor had they the paper relating to the matter, but they could at any rate judge of the mission by its fruits.—(Hear, hear.) Well, then, they saw him going first to Sicily, and holding secret inter views with same of her sor►s, which led to war and op pression.—(llear.) Then, they saw him going to Home, and tratereizing with Mdzzi❑i and the Prince Canino, and going into a public balcony to salute a riot ous populace. Then they saw him going to Sicily, arid there his proceedings had bee❑ followed by one of the moat disastrous wars which hid taken place in modern ii:nes. If this was a mission of peace, tie should like to Itmew what was a mission of war.—(Laughter.) Mr. HENLEY said, the Hun. Member for Glasgow h•ad made a most extraerdinery defence tor the Noble L rd, and had entered into a number of extraneous circumstance:, but the simple and narrow question for them to censider was, whether it was just and prudent for a British Minister to sanction the issue of a certain number of her Majesty's arms and stores to assist a people in fighting against their rulers.—(hear, hear.) That was the sim ple question to be discussed, but the Noble Lord had thought fit to spend a great deal of virtuous indignation upon the rights of nations, and various matters of that kind.—(Hear, rind cheers.) He showed a most extreme sensitiveness that there bhould be any word or any ex pression in the resolution which might seem in any wey whatever to pledge the House to any opinion on the matter in dispute between Sicily and the King of the Teto Sicilies. The Noble Lord was extremely care ful and sensitive eta that point, but it seemed rather odd that with this great sensitiveness on his part, the Noble Lord, as the Queen's Foreign Minister, in speaking upon this question, and almost in the same breath that he gave this caution to the House, should have used the term " Sicilian Government."—(llear, hear, and laughter.) Ile should like to know what the Noble Lord meant by that.—(Hear, hear.) Because, if he was so extremely sensitive upon the effect of an accidental word in a reso lution, he ought to have been equally careful not to use a term which might lead to the supposition that in the mind of the Noble Lord he at least had recognised a Government altogether different from that of the King of the Two Siciliee. The Noble Lord's de ender, who spoke from behind him, had told the House that the Noble Lord had done more during the last year and a half to preserVe the peace of Europe than any other Minister who had ever held the seals of the For, ign De partment. That was a most extraordinary statement for a defender of the Noble Lord to make, when the Noble Lord himself had just previously admitted that he had sanctioned the is•uing of arms to carry on a war.— (Chsers.) To argue from that the peace of Europe could be maintained was most illogical.—(Hear, hear.) It was, indeed, a most illogical conclusion which the Hon. Gentleman had arrived at, because it was quite clear that had these arms not have been issued no war could have taken place.—(Hear, leas, and cheers.) But what was the justification of the Noble Lord for dosing this? " Why," said the Noble Lord, ‘• the French Go vernmeut deal in arms!" Weil, but what had that to do with the.Engiish Government? They had never dealt in arms. They were not dealing with the French Gcvern merit but with the English Government, and their charge was that they at least had no right to deal in arms. They had never done so till now.—(Cheers.) He could see no justification in that reason, then ; but said the Noble Lord in continuation, " Let the House remember that the moral influence of England has great weight, and is respected in every Court in Europe." No doubt it had, and he, for one, was glad that the Noble Lord had nut yet succeeded in tar nishing that influence.—(Loud cheers.) But let not the Noble Lord suppose that because the •acts of former Ministers, of quite a different nature to his own, had exercised a strong moral influence in all the Courts of Europe, that therefore he could do as he pleased.—(Hear, hear.) That moral influence was not to be tampered with by the Noble Lord with im punity, and he for one hoped the Noble Lord would shortly see the expediency of adopting a dif ferent policy to attempting to receive peace by open ing arms to the insurgents.—(Cheers and laughter.) Mr. HUME was glad to hear that the Noble Lord had emitted that the naval force of England had pre served the peace of Europe, because he trusted when he should propose at an early period a reduction in the army and navy, he should have a fair field.—(Hear and laughter.) lie gave the Noble Lord full credit for sincerity when he expressed his conviction that England with her moral force had succeeded in securing the peace of Europe, and he hoped the Neale Lord would be prepared at the proper time to support a motion fur a reduction of the forces.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") With regard to this; particular question no doubt the Noble Lord had acted with the best intentions, but he doubted much whether the fact of a Minister high in office stating in another place that the policy of the Noble Lord iu reference to Sicily had been adopted with the sanction and privity of the Cabinet, was calculated to increase the Noble Lord's own moral influence abroad.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord's defender had talked about the Noble Lord and his Admiral having interfered from motives of humanity; but he for one deprecated the use of such a justification, because, if they were always to fall back upon motives of humanity, many of our finest armies who fought our battles as a matter of duty might be induced to abandon us by motives of humanity.—(Hear, and cheers.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL said his Noble Friend (Lord Palmerston) had been accused of going beyond the bounds of the motion, as it he had introduced other subjects besides those directly relating to it; but the tact was that the lion. Member (Mr. Bankes) who made the Motion had alluded to a number of matters which were not strictly before the House. From point to point of the Hou. Member's statement did his Noble Friend give answers, which he (Lord John Russell) thought were en tirely satisfactory to the House.—(Hear, hear.) Now he was not the only Member who had entered into statements which were entirely irrelevant to the aecount to which the motion related. Did the House ever hear of a motion of censure with re gard to the acts of a Government proposed under the shape of a motion for an account of a certain number of guns which had been supplied by the Ordnance?— (Hear, hear.) Was that not a strange mode of censure when the account had not yet been laid before the House, and when the Government were not unwilling to produce it ?—(Hear, hear.) Was it not unallowable to introduce a statement of the conduct of the Government with respect to a particular matter when the means of deciding upon it were not in the possession of the House ?—(flear, hear.) That, in fact, was the whole question at issue and nothing more, but the occasion was so tempting, that Hon. Members could not refrain from going into other matters.—(Laughter.) he Hon. Member for Limerick said that was en occa sion to introduce the question of the repeal of the union, and the Hon. Member for Montrose said it was a good °ppm tunity for stating what should be the amount of the estimates, and what reductions should be made.— (Laughter.) The House would see the consequence of that inconvenient proceeding, fur instead of moving for an account of the number of guns supplied by the Ord nance, and ending there, statements had been introduced with respect to the kingdom of the Two Sicilies and our conduct towards it. Among other misunderstandings upon the question before the House, there appeared to be one with regard to what passed in another place on the same subject, in substance to the effect that his Noble Friend (Lord Palmerston) had said he maintained that he had done perfectly right. Now, his Hon. Friend said nothing of the kind, and had offered no opinion upon the subject at the present moment. The lion. Member for Montrose had stated that whatever might be the opinion of other members of the Cabinet, they dif fered with the Noble Lord (Lord Palmerston). Nothing of the kind had occurred. The fact was, this:—His Noble Friend, some months ago, received an applica tion from the Ordnance -office with respect to the supply of guns, and he then said that he had no objection to assent to arms being given, but it was not thereby intended that that country should be inundated with British arms, nor that this coun try should be denuded of her arms.—(fieer, hear.) Instructions were afterwards given to her Majesty's Minister at Naples to offer an explanation, and to state his regret at what had occurred. He did not wish to enter into the merits of the qui alien, as to the rights of the King of the Two Sicilies, as acknowledged by that treaty of Vienna—as to the right secured to the people by the assent of the ancient and hereditary Prince of the Two Sicilies in the year 1812. All these matters were of very se rious import, which he thought could not be well understood without reference to the papers of the time of the transactions of 1812 up to 1816. The papers certainly did not justify the Honourable Gen tleman in saying that Lard 'Mint() had raised the insurrection in the Two Sicilies in January by going to Naples in the month of February. Lord Minto went to Naples in February, the King having expressed a wish to communicate with our Ambassador from this country, and Lord s , linto, who accepted the office, consider , d that he might be of use to the King in arranging terms between him and the Provi4onal Goverment of the Two Sicilies. Ile (Lord J. Russell) was told that no such Government existed, and that Lord Minto was not justified in the course he adopted. The Noble Lord then referred to the establishment of a Provisional Government in Belgium, which he said this country did not hesitate to acknowledge. He replied. to the statement of the Hon. Member for Limerick by saying that his statement, that the case of Sicily was similar to that of Ireland, reminded him of a story told by a friend of his, who had travelled in Shay. A child told him that she would go to England by land, but he said she could not, as Eng • and was an island; but, said the child, Sicily is an island too. (Laughter.) That was the resem blance between Ireland and Sicily.—(Hear, hear.) But then the Honourable Member for Montrose tells us that as England had so much moral force, this was a good time to reduce the estimates. He thought that wis rather too hasty an inference, because the Hon. Member must know that if we wished to retain that moral influence it would depend a good deal on our being looked upon by other countries as a nation hag' ing considerable power to make its views respected by other nations.—(Hear, hear.) As to what the Hon. Member for Limerick had said about Lord elinto having endeavoured to excite insurrection in Rome, and in Italy 'generally, so far from that lacing the case, Lord Minto, when consulted by the Governments of those countries as to the amendments in their con•ti tutione which he would recommend, did not feel it his duty to go so far in any case as to recommend a repre sentative- constitution for adoption,—(Hear, hear.) It should also be recollected that the King of Naples was the first t give a representative constitution to his sub jects, and that that alteration was the beginning cf the disturbances which afterwards took place at Rome, Tus cany, Milan, and other parts of Itaiy.—(Bear.) Lord Mint() was far fr:un having advised anything democratic. He alvised the Sovereigns with whom he was brought into contact, whilst they supported their independence, to make such reforms as were required by the wants of their people. He (Lord J. Russell) believed that with regard to Italy, as well as to other parts of Europe, that if such advice as that given by Lord Minto in 1848 ha I V( n given, and given with success, teenty yc aro before to Austria, Prussia, and Italy, the disasters that had occurred would have been averted. If the Sovereigns of Italy Ed allowed their people some liberty—if they had given them represeu• tati)n--if, in short, they had given some outlet to the intelligence and desire of the people fur political power, which, with the progress of know ledge and the existence of peace, had been rendered ab solutely neeessar) —so fsr from bloody civil war arising in Europe, they would have been spared the >cene of past havoc, and instead of beholding a transition from the most complete and absolute de.potisrn to the most wild and rabid demo cracy, they would hare had the introduction of constitutional governments, and would have beheld A better state of things in Europe thau existed at the present moment.—(Cheers.) Mr.URQUHART rose amidst loud cries of " Divide." He said the state of things iu Sicily was another instance of the mischievous nature of the interference of this country with foreign states; and it a similar course were pursued in the future, the name of this country would be brought into contempt in the eyes of the world. Mr. BANKES was quite ready to adopt the sugges tions of the Noble Lord, and withdraw the word in surgenis as applied to the Sicilians, and he would make his motion to the following effect : .6 An account of all Ordnance stores returned from that de department to any contractor, in the year 1848, for the purpose of being sent to the Sicilians, iu arms against her Majesty's ally, the King of the Two Sicilies, with the consent of her Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs." If the Noble Lord would consent to the motion in that modified shape there would be no necessity to divide upon it, but if he did not, 10 must persevere in his motion. Lord PALMERSTON, not assenting to the motion as amended, strangers were ordered to withdraw, isnd the House divided, when there appeared— For the motion Against it ... 124 Majority against the motion ...-85 The motion was consequently lost. The House adjourned at Six o'cl-ck. THE TWO-SICILIES. Mr. BANKES, in moving fur an account of all Ord nance stores returned from that department to any con tractor in the year 1848, for the purpuso of being sent to the Sicilian insurgents in arms against her Majesty's ally the King of the Two Sicilies, with the consent of her Majesty's Government—said as it would affect our character as a nation, he thought it his duty to call the attention of the House to the subject. It was a remarkable fact, although legislation upon matters of domestic policy was canvassed in all socie ties, that in that House alone did it happen that our foreign policy was so little entered upon. Matters re lating to our intercourse with foreign states were either too early or too late for discus sion, but there was always some reason given by some one on the Treasury benches why the present was au inappropriate occasion to discuss those particular subjects which people out of doors were freely discus sing. If all matters with regard to our foreign poli c y passed with advantage to th State and to our own character, undoubtedly it might be reasonable not to dis courage that mysterious sort of tranquillity which hitherto for a long time has prevailed in regard to our relations with foreign powers. But they looked about them, and they saw that was not the case: our relations with foreign states were not altogether of an entirdy satis factory nature, and he thought that an humbl,eiiiatidciavlideuiral .! might he excused if he spoke of the p:, etnnstal:e ,, s which were now passing before their eye:i, aid brought the rnrlttc-r pro:rinentiy heff, re the louse. In many of those countries with which it was our interest as a great commercial nation to be on STATE OF TRADE. - - MANCHESTER, MARCH 6.—Under the combined influence of a decline of about is d. per pound in the lower Ame rican cottons, and of the startling tidings from the Pun jaub, aided by certain unsatisfactory appearances in Conti nental relations, the business of the day has beers restricted to a comparatively small amount both in yarns and goods. As regards the prices of goods, it may be stated that, tor the most part, they remain steady, though this is hardly; he casein some Indian descriptions, particularly 64-reed sit' rtings. In yarns, quotations of this day week remaih unchanged, and are generally maintained with firmness- Spinners have declined taking orders even for those counts' of water twists of which there are the greatest accumulations. rather than make slight concessions in price. ROCHDALE, MARCH s.—There has been a falling off ; irs the demand for flannels to-day, and less business doing, arising, principally, from the manufacturers asking higher prices, as they are obliged to give higher rates for wool. There has been an extremely dull wool market, and the operations have been limited at last week's prices. HUDDERSFIELD, MARCH 6.--Every description of goods adapted for the season has met with ready sale in the Cloth Hall. The business has been principally for the home trade. In light fancy goods, not much has been doing, although, from the variety of Dear patterns, and the various textures of cloth exhibited in the shops, we may hope for a good spring trade. HALIFAX, MARCH 3.—The demand for worsted goods iS scarcely so active as it wa s , arrl prices remain, as to most descriptions, much as they were. In some cases, higher rates are realised. Yarns continue in good request, chiefly for export, and the spinners are generally able to obtain rates corresponding with the enhanced cost of th e raw material. The wool market is rather quiet, but prie" are very firm. LEEDS, MARCH 6.—No very remarkable change has taken place in our c'oth market since last week. Although there was not quite as much business done at our halls to• day as we had to rep or t some wee k s b ack, yet prices keep steady. From the w h o l e we may safely say, that our _ cloth market cow i nues sat i s f actory, and promises to do ov fur some time to come. - Manchester Guardian. RAILWAY SHAKE MARKETS. LIVERPOOL, 111 - aacn 7. STocs EXCHANGE. —We have had a very poor market to-daff and closed without may change worthy of remark.—The sales Caledonian, Preference, 7 per cent., 11U, ex. in. —Ditto, Clydeant: Junction, 60Si— Great Nor t hern (B) Sh ares , % dis.—Lancashu' and Yorkshire, Fifths, 2 3 ,4 dis.—Ditto, TO/. Preference, 1 Halves (late Huddersfield and Sheffield), 9% dis.—Ditt o , Halves (A,..," Lancaster and Bury), 9% dis.— Ditto, Fifths (late West Rid''' . Union), 4 dis.—Lancaster and Preston 55C dis—London and North; Western, 136% ex div.—Ditto, Quarters, 5% p. ex in.—Ditto ( 1 . 4 ; /. andllewsbury), 45% ex in. —Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincoln , ..;!",, r Preference, 10%—Midland Stock, 82)4 c. ex div.—Ditto, 1 ”, Halves, 7% dis.—North Stafford s hi re , 3 c. ilis.—North Union V ., ' 216—Scottish entral, 25%—South-Eastern, Thirds (No. +), York, Newcastle, and Berwick Extension, 1 % Ws. ex .N. E. Purchase), die. , MANCHESTER, MAROLI 7. 5204/1( EXCHANGE.-The sales are-Aberdeen, Preference, 9-16 p.-Bolton, Blackburn, Clitheroe, and West Yorkshire, Preference. (13), 17.34-Caledonian, Preference, 11 8-16 c. in.- East Anglian' Preference (6 per cent.), 23. -East Lancashire, New, 6 d15.-Kencla. and Windermere, 5-Lancashire and Yorkshire, Quarters, 4% dis• - : Ditto, 321. Shares (late Extension), 6 1 ,fi dis.-Ditto (W. R. Union), 37 " dis.-Londou and North-Western, Thirds, 9% e.-North Stafford'- shire, 2 15-16 dis.-South-Eastern and Dover, Thirds (No. 4), 734 c' BIRMINGHAM. Marten 7. STOCK EXCHANGE.—The sales are—North Staffordshire, 2%_._" — ihrewsbury and Ambergate, Preference, 2 p. Shropshir• Uniw' 2q— south Staffordshire, 314,. RELIEF TO THE POPE.—A. further collection wilt made on Sunday at the Roman Catholic churches and chapels in the metropolis for the relief the Pope. Th e circular from the Bishop was read to the congregatiolt s from the pulpit, in which it was urged that the Sovereign Bintiff required assistance in his present depose ° state, and that it was the wish and intention of the church that th e R oman C at h o li c community in .s,PI- country should raise a l arge sum o f money as a man"eli cation of their r es p ect an d regard for the spiritua l bes t of the Roman Catholic Church in his present terer ni debasement. The colle c ti ons ma d e are o f a very liberal , character, and they will, it i s un d erstood, b e forwaree.; with a suitable address a t an early opportunity t° Holiness, at Gaeta. ANDOVER.—A meeting of the creditors of 14 °,1 lluntingtower was h e ld at t h e C at h er i ne Wheel 1:07 last week, wh en it was stated that a Piiry, who held a muc h l arger amount of preP Sr . t ' v ;$ belonging to his L or d s hip t h an was sufficte' d to satisfy his claim, an d w h o l e f t Engli/13 some time since, was now returned; and it was deter" mined by the credito rs th at me cures should be takelt recover the amount so h e ld a b ove hi s r i g h t f u l claim` The matter has since been discussed in the Insolvell i Court, and it appears highly probable that the sum 11 be recovered.— Salisbury Journal. FATAL RAILWAY ACCIDENT.--On Saturday after' noon an accident happ ene d t o t h e express tra i n on the York, Neivcastle, and Berwick Railway. It left Dar' lington about 5 P.M. on i ts way to the north, and Wil e , about six miles north of Darlington, at a place known I t i ) " Morden C ar r s ," t h e eng i ne ( a new one we underst and) when going at th e usua l s p ee d, su dd en l y went o ff the . P line, crossed over the up line, and embedded it se lf the soil. The engine driver (Love) was killed on t l °.: spot, and the stoker so m uc h i n j ure d t h at be 1' not expected to recover. F or t unate l y the couplings e gave way, and the c a r r i ages escaped compaest i p% uninjured. The pa ssengers were, it is said, unhurt. I,h; engine was compl ete l y b roken, and the up Itn; blocked. The mail train from the north nearly due at the time, and on ifs approach auto stopped b e f ore any m i schief was done. The ttic; Loarned Judg es on t h e northern circuit, Mr. Baron Alderson and Mr. Justice C o l er id ge were passengers ° the mail trai n , having that afte r n oon fi n i s h e d th e assize s at Durham, and w ere t h en on th e i r way to York. Tbe., alighted, and minutely exam i ne d t h e scene o f t he al" aster. The workmen of the company were busily any gaged during Sunday repairing the line. Dtputations were received yesterday at the Colonial: office, from the Governors of the North American Pro, vinees, and a l so f rom t h e G overnors o f J ama ica av c ` Gib; altar. BIRTHS. On the 3d inst., at Albany-road, Camberwell, Mrs. John R. Algal., of a son. On the 2d ult. ' at Varna, the lady of Li eu t.-C o l on el E. it John Neale, her Majesty's Con su l i n B u l gar i a, of a daughttlie On the sth inst., at Chester-street, Belgrave-square , wife of M Wyvill, jun., 111. P., of a son and heir. On the sth inst., at Park-cottage, Pelham-road, Broil:e V, the wife of F. W. Du Pre Dyer, Esq., of a son. lAft On the 5111 inst., at Russell-square, th e w if e o f R. Bag— Esq., of a son. On the 4th inst., at the Re c t or y, C omp t on M art i n , the /fife of the Rev. R. Baker, of a son. On the 2d inst., at Lawn-cottage, Battersea, the J. H. E. Ridley, Esq., of a daughter. 100 On the 3d mast., in St. Ja m e s ' s - square, t h e w if e o f Cker Sumner, Esq.. of a son. MARRIED. On the 6th inst., at St. George's Church, Hanover-scl lll /: William Baynes. Esc'., of Emsworth, H ants, to A nn , clang ter of the late B. Munn Esq., of Rolvendon, Kent. DIED On the 6th, at Richmond -terrace, Whitehall, the A " Hon. Lady Edward Thyn ne . , of On the 2 d ult., in D u bli n, John (Mara, Esq. Raheen.lin the county of G a l way. On the 3d inst., in' Due" Robert O'Hara, late Lieut.-Colonel of the etith On the 4th inst., at Edinburgh, William H. Dowbigo Esq., aged 60. On the 2d inst., at Belfast, aged 68, Mark Sheridan , sq.' late of the 1 ith Light Infantry, after 50 years' service• i Dan On the 6th i nst . , at Camberwell-grove, Colone l De" Robinson, aged 58. On the lath ult., aged 67, Henry Williams, Esq , of V" dune-house, near Guildford, Surrey. of On the zd inst., at Dawlish, Devon, Mr. Donald Frase r ' Chitten-house, aged 34 o pd On the Ist inst., at Balderton, Notts, Jane Anne, Bee daughter of T. S. Godfrey, Esq., aged 19. On the 2d inst., at Lawn-place, Shepherd's-bush, Thee ° Jones, Esq., aged 70. On the 2d inst., at Ongar, Essex, Brook B. Hurlock, ? 4 re . , On the 2d inst., at Manchester-street, Manchester-09.1 1 %r agt , d 2 , Emily Jane, youngest daughter of the late XV' Thomas Fisher, of the Bengal army. On the 2d inst., Mary, the wife of Ur. T. Brown , S t ' Mary Axe. late On the 3J inst , aged 37, ‘Yilaani, second son of the Mr. S Fox, of Hackney. At the Rectory, Southchurch, Essex, the Rev. Char Chisholm, aged 65. , London Printed and Publi s h e d b y YOU , ' G No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, lic 4 et Strand, in the Precinct o f th e S avoy, i n t h e co un ty • ALiddlesex, Thursday, March 8, 1849. O'c tieNl ar i Wh ole W hen Daid di thus tt by a likte "tacit Pduc A the ni c , aau. !ta