The Sun. — London, England, 1842-03-19 00:00:00

sib le. There were also one or two typographical errors in the tariff. He was desirous to avoid successive nod ..firations ; a little delay had therefore been occasioned tre at it might be laid correctly before the House. The en eirs would be corrected as soon as possible, and the col 'met tariff would be laid on the table before the Bo use separated for the Easter recess. dr. G. WOOD said he thought it would be better to • tint the tariff altogether. Pdr. HAWES said he understood the Right Hon. C 'reintleman to say that there were some typographical s (Tors, arid that some changes were in contemplation. 1 There there .were typographical errors he thought the 11 tight Hon. Gentleman ought to inform the House what t. hey were as soon as possible, that they might know •hat were the errors and what the proposed changes. Captain PECHELL wished to know whether, in the oposition which had been made for placing a duty on lash, which had been heretofore proposed, the effect elate fluty would have on what:had been done by the Select 'Cern mitt( -e of Fisheries in 1833, and the convention with the French in 1839, as to the exclusive right of fishing within three miles of our coast, had been considered. He sv isned to 'call the attention of the House to this subject; for if thole. fieets of French ships were allowed to fish en our cc -est, and carry their fish for sale into the; ports of Ii ent and elsewhere, the effect would be greatly to injure t sr fisheries. Sir ROBERT PEEL spoke in so low a tone of voice 1: tat the purport of his answer did not reach us. PROPERTY FOR. CHARITABLE USES. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE wished to know from the Right' / lon. Baronet . (Sir R. Peel) whether the income arising' fj .om funds or lands for charitable purposes was to be st tbjeee to the income tax? Sir IL PEEL said that it was not his intention that ti ineonae.arising from the rent of land, or public securi ti es for charitable „purposes, shbeld be subjected to the tax, to at was to say, when et was solely applied to such pur ge -ses ; but the salary of public. officers appointed to ad shah-property:would not be exempt from the tax. EXCHEQUEIt FRAUDS. Dr. BOWRING wished to know from the Chancellor of tip e Rtehequer' whether he would bring forward the sub j` afethe ilxehequer Frztuds' Bill- to-uiglit.--(A laugh.) 7he CHANCELLOR ofehe EXCHEQUER did um 0 any probability of being able to do so. . - - In answer to a queetien from Mr. Sliiel, tord . ELIOT at -id it was his intention to bring,in: a Bill during the 1 . 1 -esent Session on the subject of Irish Fisheries. The Consolidated Fund Bill was read a third time n d paSSed. A Message from the Lords brought up sundry Bills. THE INCOME TAX. Lord JOHN RUSSELL wished to know, from the Right Honourable Baronet, ti !tether it was his inten tit..n to make his statement of the manner in which he ) , r( posed to collect the income tax, before the Speaker .1 -ft the Chair, or after the House should have gone into Corr. tmittee ? She R. P EEL said he. should make the statements im r reedi ately on the House reselving itself intu aCommittee. Lord j..RUSSELL thought if the Right Hon. Ba ronet' had any explanation .to make, it should be done before. the Speaker left the Chair, as it could not so Wopel7ly be made on a mere resolution in teCommittee of ays and Means, as on a general statement of finance. Sir R. PEEL said, when the House resolved itself zo a Committee of Supply, he would take the earliest of ps-rtamity of laying the information required before the I louse, and he proposel to commence the debate by that statement. if he made it in Committee, he should lave , the opportisnity of speaking more than once, and s' •on Id be able to reply to any objections. M r.BARLN.G said it was perfectly competent to the Higb t Hon. 'Baronet to take the course he had state d. He did not at all quarrel with the Right Pont mrable Baronet for reserving his explanation t 1 Ito seolee on the IncOme Tax specifically, and n e on the general subject of the finances; but ha vin t s heseed from the Right Hon. Baronet the pro peeitio e of those 'measures which on the part of her Itlejesee's..eleovernment, it would be the most satisfactory course te , explain the general nature of his plan (as we atelerste , y 1) before the house went into Committee. • wot ii I advert to the manner in which the debate I Friday last was conducted. The Right Hon. trone' ; then gave a general view of the finances of the et .uitr; f, and went into an explanation of his plan as a w. tole, and not in reference to any particular measure. T :e B fight. Hon. Baronet's statement on that occasion did ac ;ce 11 for any expression of opinion from gentlemen of tl tat (the Opposition) side of the House, and they ofi sre4l no opposition to the resolutions which the Right He n. - Baronet considered necessary for the public ser vie& As to the particular measures which the Right Mee Gentleman had to propose, if they were fairly dis cuss .s I in the Committee, after that fair discussion, they woo is i not oppose the Right Hon. Gentlemen. They were wet Lg into the Committee to discuss the details of the measure, and would have to examine each • icular detail, and not the general principle of one gre tt measure. He had now to trouble the House with Isom a observations, which he had great reluctance to offer. The Right Honourable Baronet had at:le .d - that he (Mr. Baring-) had stated the expendi tie e at more than it actually proved to be. There was ins ed,' one particular point, in which the expenditure ha. proxecl to be less than he had. anticipated. That I w: t., in Coe :case of China: ' But he could assure the IL tree, that it was extremely difficult to get informa, tio at that time ; and he had laid the information wly c h. he possesse d as fairly before the House as he could. JP' • f lever pretended that his , estimates were precisely sects/ ate as to amount, but he was afraid he could not pa - - " any ' great compliment to the calculations of the Aieht Hen. Baronet. The Right Hon. Baronet seemed to cot ,sicter that the falling off in the revenue would be a perm a ndrit one e bUt he (Mr. F. Baring) thought that di mieu t .o a was attributable to circumstances not likely again to occur, and that the income from these sources weak I b e much higher than the Right Hon. Baronet had cals.& at. ,c 1 on. He would not go into any details with regar 1 to the estimates of expenditure. Those were matte r:s which the House had already had before them iu detail, and the greater part of whick had been . voted, a nd from the circumstances of the country he could not se e any likelihood of any diminution taking place. lit the e a estimates. He would, therefore, take the annual expenditure at 50,819,000/. Now, with regard to the * -stimates of income, he would say, speaking from his owl i experience from a pretty long connexion with the Tr easury, that even the officers of the Treasury it seY, at id who had for years been connected with that del az tment, are unable to make anything like a correct esten ate of the income ; and as for any one else, without their information, attempting to do it, was clearly impossi ble. I A was generally known that at the period when Chan celte rs of Exchequer usually made their statements the do cuire .nts on which they were founded, and which were pre pare .1 in their own offices, always, somehow or other, foun d their way to the public. These papers, which wets of a demi-official character, he should treat as authorities, and on those papers he should found the alga ment lie was about to address to the House. From three e papers he found that the annual .expenditure ane 5 unted to 50,819,0001., the income to 48,350,000/., a nd the deficiencies to 2,553,000/. , The Right Ho: t curable Baronet had correctly stated the expen ditt t ! '.e at 50,819,0001., and the income at 48,350,000/.. T eat rig a deficiency, on the whole, - of 2,569,000/. In stat 'sag this deficiency the Right Hon. Baronet was not quit e correct in his calculations. Now, when he (Mr. Baring) was at the. Exchequer, he fowl d the deficie nc y to be 109,0001. less, being 0,46' 1,0001. instead of 2,569,0001., so that he was i apr -y to say the Right lion. Baronet was mistaken to th e amount of 109,000/., and it was no small console to hi (Mr. Baring) to be able to hand over to the High t Hon. Baronet an additional 100,000/. in the prese at state of his finances.—(Laughter and cheers.) Form erly the Right Hon. Baronet taunted him with not Wing able to get much out of him when he (Mr. B.) was g for a budget, but he had become more fortunate since . he (Mr. B.) had left that side of the water in which the .1 'tight Hon. Baronet and his colleagues had beri :for some time splashing. Now he (Mr. Baring) hat ateght.loo,ooo/., which, with perfect good humour, be be gged to offer to the Right Hon. Baronet, as the first fruits of his (Mr. B.'s) financial fishing on that side of tire • ; 'Steeam.—(Laughter.) Now, as the whole of this disciG ;semi turned upon the financial deficiency, be vt 'Ould beg leave to refer to the . deficieney as it sir use, in • order that the House might ein e derseend the case exactly. The first year in which a d.,,fitiency occurred was in the year 1837-38, when the :IrcaAatt was 1,418,000/., a large deficiency certainly, but sow .h ad ie arisen ? Gentlemen who were acquainted with that period would re. ollect that it was a year of simt st tint►stralleled difficulty ; that the revenue had fallen off ,o an extraordinary extent, or to speak more correctly, that the revenue of 1836 and 1837 had antieipate el to a great extent that of 1837 and 1838. On that occasion he perceived that the total ordinary rove me, taking it loosely, fell off' by about 2,500,000/. in the course of one year. He did not wish to look ba.,,;k then to any mistakes which may for merly ha . to been committed by any party, and which every one might. commit ; but he should say that if they were • still in the same situation, adverting to the circumstances , of fie 3 fear, adverting to the position of the revenue, , and adverting to the elasticity of these resources, lad hitherto borne the revenue harmless through much greater difficulties—he should say that the course whijh, he then pursued was a wise and proper course—he meant the course of filling up the defi ciency of one year by the excess of former years. It appeared to him that it would be exceedingly inadvis able on the first moment of an unexpected pressure to have recourse to additional taxation upon that occason ; the Paiticipation of an increased revenue turned out to a.. Nrtain extent to be correct, for the deficien.7 which ea tie years 1837-8 amounted to 1,438,000 L, the next year was diminished by a sum of 1,000,000/. ; and the end. T deficiency was then only four hundred and thir ;y thousand. He felt perfectly confident, in addi c ion, that if it had not beets for those events which efte 'wards occurred, if it had not been, for instance, for the insurrection which had broken out in Canada, and the necessary addition to our establishment there,. and the subsequent expense which this country incurred, be toll perfectly confident that had it not been for those sre:tis the next year would not have witnessed that deficiency in the estimates which had taken place, but would have witnessed the revenue and the Income equalling each other. — (Hear, .h ear ,) H e admitted,. however, that thi s had not been: the case. In..te.year 1839 the deficient- amounted to 4,457,000 L; ETM7F. l'•Wkt'•in addition, he had to calculate upoe the esti ,fg sitt deficiency in the future Post-office revenue eet.i eelefat`*:.`-the'!b year 1839-40. Under these circum e see -4 , , e le s su r . e .l4ter he had come ffiee he felt into es, Itesss s i'ree e ;kieete •, take those, seeps. which he ° th_ would • !1" . 4 yto contribute to equalise .the .revenue, and ti - cetted:-eketenditere (Hear, 1 ette.) e Honourable Baronet opposite had N. .1:741 - 4aftisiti observations which were no doubt 'ttly fair and Toper upon the financial system of the Minister.. - • (Dlr. Flaring's) . • sad prcci,ded ; 13 anythiog into sir t t e xtra tlat intro duceussion of a norgonal nature. Kit i• 1 sion, with respect to the sugar duties, he laid on the table of the House a document which showed - the consumption of sugar, with relation to the population of the country. When that article was at a moderate price, the quantity of sugar in molasses which had altogether been received in this country was 4,233,000 cwt. If the average cal culation of the average consumption per head was taken for eleven years as a basis for ascertaining the quantity of sugar consumed, it would be found that it would amount to 4,445,000 cwt. in addition to what had been already received, which amounted to 758,000 cwt. Upon that subject, he (Mr. Baring) was anxious to refer to the opinions of a public officer, who, though he disagreed with him on general topics, he (Mr. Baring) was desirous to express in that House the high estimate he had always entertained of that gentleman—he alluded to the late Mr. Deacon Hume.— (Hear, hear.) Mr. Hume told himself (Mr. Baring) that though he was not very friendly to the proposition of the Government, it was his (Mr, Hume's) opinion that it was calculated to increase the revenue con siderably; and with regard to timber, he thought he could also satisfy the House. There were, he believed, many Hon. Gentlemen, who voted against his proposed scale of timber duties, who never doubted that it would lead to an increase in the revenue, as he had anticipated. The Right Hon. Ba ronet had made some observations against his scheme; but he would remind the House and the Right Honourable Baronet of something which had hap pened before with regard to the timber duties.— (Hear.) He should say that a remarkable forgetfulness had been shown of the occurrence to which he was about to allude.—(Hear, hear, hear.) In the year 1821 there was a .Committee upon foreign trade. That Committee had published a very full and detailed report ; he believed that Lord Wallace was chairman on the occasion, and the present Lord Ripon was at the time Vice-President of the Board of Trade. He did not mention that for the pur pose of criminating either of those parties—he was aware that in matters of finance men must change their minds when they received additional information. It would be absurd to attempt to fasten an imputation on a party, because after ten or twelve years he had altered his opinions on subjects of so intricate a nature, and he had not therefore the slightest wish to throw imputation upon any one by the observation he was about to make. But what were the recommendations of that Committee? They gave it as their opinion that, for the purpose of re lieving, and in order to carry into operation the wisest principle's, it was advisable that the differential duty be tween Canada timber and Baltic timber should be materially diminished. They stated that there were three courses open to the Legislature. They might increase the duty upon Canada timber, a course the Committee did not recommend ; secondly, they might reduce the Baltic timber only, a course which they did not recommend either ; and thirdly, they might increase the duty upon Canada timber from a nominal duty to 10s., and reduce the Baltic timber from the amount at which it then stood. That last course was the one which the Committee recommended, and theprinciple it involved was that Which he (Mr. Baring) had adopted. It was said, indeed, that his plan was an imperfect one, but he did not believe there was any party that could be considered as an authority who was not satisfied that it was a step at least in the right road. On that occasion he, had proposed to carry into effect that principle which he thought was the proper basis upon which the com mercial legislature of the country ought to rest.—(Hear.) Now he would show them what was the result of that . measure—what was the amount of revenue received from it. In 1520, the amount received for the duty in timber was 927,000/. He would not take the years 1821 or 1822, but he would next take 1823, and the result of the timlser ditties in that year was 1,552,0001. being au. increase of 625,0001. on the then increased consumption oftitnber. The consumer made no complaint at that time, and he should think from that time the consumption of timber of all sorts had increased. If he had gone into those details connected with the ar rangement which he had the honour once to propose to the House, he could assure them that he had not been induced to take that step by any personal consideration, with a view to defend himself, or with any obstinacy, to show that he was not wrong ie the proposals he had formerly made.—(Hear, hear.) His ,object was one of much greater importance ; it was one of deep import- since, when they came to consider what they had to do with respect to the finances of the country. His object was to show that they had not exhausted either of the sources to which reference had been made. His object was to tell them that, when they came to look at the whole course which they had to pursue, when it was their choice—and he admitted that it was an un fortunate choice—to add, in some shape or other, to .the burdens of the country, that there was none of that impossibility on which alone could be jus tified their recourse to the course they had adopted. The Right Hon. Baronet, in the statement which he made to the House, in a speech which, hisiWever, had differed from the results to which that Right Hon. Baronet came, he could not but admire, had said, that the actual deficiency he had to make up amounted to 2,569,00C1. ; and including the expenses which lie might be put to on account of China, and the late intelligence from Affghanistan, he thought the sum to be raised should amount to 3,000,000/., and leaving 500,0001. for other purposes, which the exi gencies of the country required, he proposed to raise an amount of 4,300,000/. Of this sum, leaving out 3,000,0001. required for the public service, there remained the sum of 1,300,0001., which lie pro posed to dispose of in reducing the tariff, and other deductions of duty which lie explained to the House. The House would therefore see that the Right Hon. Gentleman's proposition included not only the raising an amount of money, equal to the acknowledged wants of the country, but likewise a further amount of 1,300,00 a for the purpose ofdealing with reductions in the tariff, and for the general commercial benefit of the country. They ought to look a little into the principles of the plan which the Right Hon. Baronet proposed. It was absolutely necessary for gentlemen feeling less strongly than he did in reference to the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet, when they were told that 'they would receive a new commercial tariff and reduction on certain articles, it was but fair and necessary, he asserted, for them at least to consider upon what principles this new , commercial code was pro posed, and what were the changes held out as tempta tions to the public, and the commercial community in particular, to submit to the income tax. They had looked at what those proposals were, and what the principles on which they were founded. The Right Hon. Baronet had stated that there were certain alterations and changes to be made, in consequence of typographical errors—he hoped they were no more than typographi cal—and, which errors he proposed to rectify. But there was one principle which run through the whole plan—a principle of which the Right Hon. Baro net said nothing- in his opening speech ; but which, in his (Mr. Baring's) opinion, was fraught with danger and alarm to the commercial interests of th vs- country. What had, been the extent to which, before this, they carried their protective and dif ferential duties ? They had protected some of the great and leading interests of the Colonies, but never before this had they gone into all small and trifling details: But they had not laid down that principle throughout, that in every trifling case it was an im portant principle to have differential duties to protect the Colonies.—(Hear, hear.) That was the principle which ran throughout the whole project of the Right Hon. Baronet.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition.) There is not a single article that was not made a subject of differential duty, whether it is produced in the Colonies or not. Take the first article.--(Cheers and laughter.) Now, the Right Hon. Gentlenian him self said that there were 1,200 .artieles in the tariff, and that he had prepared his project after the Cabinet had given to each article the fullest consideration. Having, therefore, delibe rately considered the average price of every colonial article—(Laughter)—the Right Hon. Baronet gave a protection of 100 per cent. to colonial asses.—(Great laughter.) Now, that reminded him of the expression used by the Right Hon. Gentleman himself, that " this was ridieulouslegislation"—(Cheers from the Opposition) —to see a Cabinet sitting deliberately in council on the protection due to colonial asses.—(lncreased laughter.) Why in one place they gave a protection of 100 per cent. to eau-de.;cologne, the produce of the colony. e —(Loud laughter.) He knew perfectly well how that had been done. A principle was laid down—there was AO con sideration of the absolute necessity for these pro tections—there was no consideration of the fa vour or protection due to the negro population—there was no fear of the supply of asses failing—(Loud laugh ter)—there was no fear of the supply of eau-de cologne not being equal to the demand if the Rhine should be shut up ; but there was laid down one prin ciple which was, that in all possible cases, and under all possible circumstances, they would create differential duttes.— (Loud Opposition cheers.) That was the principle on which they had acted. (Continued cheering.) But even that principle had not been carried out justly. There was a class of persons entirely em ployed in cork-cutting. He had been told that by the reductions they were making in the tariff these persons, who were the creatures of the protective system which had been fostered in this kingdom, would have their in terest most materially affected. He did not tell them that for the purposes of carrying out the general pirnciples of free trade, they would have to remove that protection; they had no right to do so, but he would tell them that these persons had a right, not unfairly, to complain if they found that the protection was taken away from them ; but protection upon many articles of colonial pro duce had been increased, and in many instance articles had been protected which hail never before received pro tection.—(Cheers.) In the schedule there were no less than 246 new protections introduced ; many of them were said to be of so small an amount, that they were really not worth consideration. But he thought that man was not a wise man who would venture to foretell what might be the ultimate result of any protection, however small. He firmly believed that a considerable portion of that inconvenience froo which trade was at present suffering, arose from the injudicious attempts which had been made to give protection to particular trades, at n time when it was wrongly thought they required the hear, hear.) fosteringi 'fake another of article State.—(Hear, proposed t o d ea l w i t h—thi s was to bacco, the Government proposed which chiefly came from the United 'States. The duty was 45. At one time Mr. Huskieson thought he could grow to bacco in our American colonies, and he did therefore introduce a, reduction of 3d. in favour of tobacco coming from the West Indies and North America against that of the United. States: But this had not extended to India. But now he would ask of them to consider what they were about to do. It was one thing to take away protection, and another thing to create it for people who had it not ; the of that differential ditty which now ' •- I.si t - hooks would, he believ•Al, n v t. tllc The question under our consideration was one of th e deepest importance to the country. , The question was, what was the financial course which they should now pursue ? and he, in common with the Right Hon. Baronet, would have to speak of past transactions ; but he could assure the Right Honourable Baronet and the House, that he would endeavour as much as possible to look upon them in an impartial point of view, and not to in troduce those topics of recrimination which might enliven their debates, but which could be attended with no beneficial result. On the occasion to which he re ferred he had recourse to an increase of 5 per cent. upon the Customs and Excise, and also an income of 10 per cent. upon the assessed taxes There was no doubt that those taxes which were placed on articles of consumption were liable to increase and diini minish with the condition of the country and the great body of the consumers; and if we calculated on an increase of revenue derivable from consumable articles, we always depended on an uncertainty—(Hear)—and no human being could depend on that, even for 5 per cent. The main point in all these questions was, first, this question in the Treasury department, "What is the harvest ?" If the harvest were gead, the revenue seldeth fails to be made up.—(llear, hear.) But if there be a succession of bac! harvests, and the community Were in i state of distress, it was not the 5 per cent, which produced a diminution in the customs, but a much • greater evil—the pressure arising from the calamitous - position of the greater part of the consumers. The Right Hon. Gentleman stated that he wished to show that we could not look for Ward to increased taxation for articles of subsistence, and con sidering the different modes of raising the taxes, he came to that of the 5 per cent. Now when they were going on a calculation which had been the foundati"n of the conclusions of the Right Hon. Baronet—that it was not expedient, but hardly possible to increase the taxation of the country by laying a tax on consumable commodities, he (Mr. B.) did say that if that was the foundation of the Righi Honourable Baronet's proposition, he had made a most egregious mistake in the amount of those commodities. The Right Hon. Baronet hid said, that the 5 per cent. tax which he imposed, produced only . 206,0001. but when the circumstances were inquired into, that statement would not be found to be correct. The Right Honourable Baronet had forgotten corn which entered largely into the calculation.—(Hear, hoar.) The 5 per cent. tax was never placed on corn, and therefore it was not at all touched by the tax of 5 per cent. The Right Hon. Baronet therefore in making the failure of the 5 per cent. tax the founda tion of the plan which he now proposed, should have recollected that the Vouse had not exhausted all the means of supplying the revenue.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. B.) was not now contending whether it was not more advisable to have a more direct tax ; but if the Right Hon. Gentleman had based his plan on the failure of the s . per cent tax, he reckoned without his host. He had not alkthe official papers before him, but the net pro duce of the customs and excise amounted in the year 1839 to 35,990,000/., not including corn ; but if he took off the amount raised from corn, which was 198,0001., the amount would be only 33,995,000/. • In the year 1841 the net produce of the Customs and Ex cise amounted to 35,537,0001., but the tax on corn produced 575,000/, which, being deducted, the amount of the Customs and Excise duties was 35,200,000/, leaving, instead of 206,000/, as was ascertained by the Right lion. Baronet, 1,700,0001 for his tax.—(Cheers, and "hear, hear," from Sir Robert Peel.) He should like to hear an answer to that. In the year 1841, when he proposed the tax of 5 per ceut. the Right Hon. Baronet did not urge very strong objections, but he said that he would prefer an increase of 2d. on the postage, and the Right Honourable Gentleman, then Chancellor of the Exchequer, adopted the same view, but it was remarkable that when they came into office they saw objections to that plans—(Hear, hear, bean) As far as he could make out the result of the increase of 5 per cent. on duties was a produce of 1,706,000/ The his and circumstances of the year 1841, were, he believed, too recent in the memory of Hon. Gentlemen, to render it necessary for him, in any shape, to call their atten tion to it. He wished, however, and he thought it not unfair, to state that he proposed duties to be imposed by which certain duties could be raised frera sugar, and timber, and corn. He had not the slightest wish to go into those party altercations bandied about on both sides of the House on that occa sion ; but Tie wished to know as far as he could what would have been the result of his proposal.- 7 - (Hear, hear.) He wished to know whether his plan Was really so wild and visionary, and such a contemp tible bubble as he remembered he was told it was. The Right Honouruble Baronet had never allluded to that part of the subject. He did nor, know whether he intended it or not, but when, in his statement, he was exhausting the different modes of raising money, he said, " shall I recur to the plan of decreasing duties, and. shall I by that means obtain a larger revenue ?" if that was supposed by the Right Hon. Baronet, or any other Hon. Gentleman, to be the plan which he (Mr. Baring) submitted to the House, lie was sure he could not have the slightest conception of the nature of the proposal. He did reduce the duty on corn, but he thought he could show, without the slightest difficulty, that they would have had not only the increase which they had actually received, but also the increase which, he was considered so sanguine h estimating at the -time when ha brought his proposition forward, fot I -there had been imported 2,358,072 quarters of foreign wheat and flour— (Oppo sition cheers)—which Would have been subjected to the duty of Bs. per quarter— (Hear, 'hear) - --222,000 quarters of barley, at 4s. Gd. a quarter, besideS rye, beans, and peas; so that if they had adopted the measure of his Nobie Friend last year, instead of the addition' of 575,000/. of revenue, they would have received upwards of 900,0001. which was what he was taunted with being too sanguine in anticipating.—(Opposition.cheers.) But instead even of the 900,000/., ',lie revenue on the corn actually im ported would have been 1,105,000/. Several _MEMBERS on the Opposition—On corn alone; Mr. BARING—On corn alone. He thought he heard a whisper on the other side, "Oh y es, but it would never come in." Now it would not only come in, but the corn would not have been one 6d. dearer. He would not go any ftiither into that part of the question. Now with regard to sugar, he per fectly admitted that the Right Honourable Baronet had received an addition of revenue of 560,000/., by the operation of the 5 per cent. But that was not quite so much as he (Mr. Baring) would have received. That was looked upon as a great triumph on the other side, because they had obtained it without any change of the law, whereas they said that his proposition would have endangered property in the West Indies, an effect which he entirely denied. He took 700;0001 as the probable increase by the plan proposed last year. But he told the House at the time that he had greatly underestimated his revenue, and that he had got a much larger amount. Every return laid upon the table, and every information which he re ceived, convinced him that without an ounce of foreign sugar being imported he would have received considerably more, and he thought that he would not only have had the 575,0001, but 700,000/. in addition to that which the Right Hon. Baronet had admitted come in so luckily. He had understood the amount last year, and he did not intend this year to go to ex cess, but ho felt satisfied that what he had stated was correct He had , been assured bit year by the Honourable Gentleman opposite that the supply of sugar from the East and West Indies would be amply sufficient to meet the consumption of the country. The Right Hon. Gentleman had assured him that there could "be no fear but what such would be the case. He (Mr. F. T. Baring) had met that by another state ment, which was that he would not fix the consumption of the country. but the country ought to have as large a supply of sugar as they pleased.—(lmmense cheering.) That was the state in which he had left the ques tion. And now he would call the attention of the House to the facts which wad show that he was right. If they referred to the returns before the House they would find that the supply had been taken out, from day to day, by the consumer, and he contended that if there had been a larger supply there would have been a larger demand,—(Loud Opposition cheers.) He should be able to show that if sugar could be procured under a certain giyen price, the consumption would go on to au extent almost unlimited, but the moment it rose beyond a certain price, consumption was checked—the ,poorer class of consumers ceased to buy, and they were obliged to depend upon a smaller class of con sumers. He thought he could show that during the last year the demand had not been met by the supply. Ile did not pretend to say that he could show that sugar had been consumed which had never been brought to market, but as far as he could judge from the returns laid on the table, he thought he could show that a further supply would have been mot by a further demand. in 1840 it was agreed on all hands that stocks were very low. In 1840, the total amount imported was 4,105,000 cwts., including foreign sugar warehoused; the total amount of British Colonial sugar was 2,230,000 c - vt.; and the total amount taken out for home consumption was 3,606,000 cwts. sheaving a deficiency of colonial supply for the year 1840, of 376,000 cwt. that being the amount by which the demand for home consumption exceeded the supply in 1840. The quantity of sugar imported in 1841 was 4,883,000 cwt., deducting the foreign, amounting to 806,000 cwt, The whole of the colonial supply which reached the market, was 4,077,000 cwt., of which consumed 4,065,000 cwt., leaving a surplus of only 11,000 cwt. upon a stock which had been long . imported, and was diminishing. Now, was he wrong in contending that according to their own figures, and their own statements, that if there had been a greater supply—if the trade had been opened in the manner he desired—the demand would have been increased, and also the revenue would have been increased ?—(Cheers.) But this was not all ; the Right Honourable Gentleman had offered the House a statement of the stock of sugar, and which might be advantageously compared with another statement of stock also issued by the West Indian body, when the discussion took place .on sugar in 1840. —(Hear.) The latter statement was merely in anticipation of the quantity of sugar that would come in, but it was so near the actual results, that his authority might be relied upon. The stock, as stated by them, for the Ist of January, 1841, was 700,000 cwt. Now the return by the Right Hon. Baronet, said that the stock on the Bth of March, 1842 was only 539,000 cwt. The result, therefore. be tween the two statements was, that from the Ist January, 1841, until th e p r eient time, the deficiency in the supply had been 112,000 cwt. less than the demand of the former year.—(Cheers.) Ngw, therefore, he (Mr. Baring) thought he had good grounds for stating, that if sugar a h b a I d e p b r e ic e e n , 7th o o re co ex ns te ti n ro s p o ively supplied, at a reason revenue, would have rc n , t y t!n fi t u ; e n the it. be recollected ti :11 tactl, it would not have becn at' Lut 3(35. When he had addressed the House upon a former mew.. 1 - 7, - :r to consuL - : would benefit India, but the differential 3d. would be THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY MORNING. MARCH 19, 1842. taken out of the Indian revenue, and would place it in the pockets df the East Indian speculator. Next, there was Assam tea—he really hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would not compel him to drink it—(Laughter) — but he would pause to ask the Right Honourable Baronet what would be the effect of these new principles now introduced into the tariff, when he came to negotiate with other countries ? The policy of wiser men, in later times, had been to liberalise tariffs, and to reduce destructive and differen tial duties. But the Right Hon. Baronet was so de voted to the opposite principle, that he would not allow even millinery to escape him. Then, when we asked foreign countries to relax their differential prin ciples in favour of us, they would refuse, and add, that we carried our differential principles to "such an extent as to make ourselves ridiculous. And was there nothing to be considered as regarded the future ?—(Hear, hear.) All those several interests might be considered trifling or small in themselves. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) may ask " Whether you want to add to that difficulty—to that opposition which every man must find in attempting to advance one single step— (Laughter) —in intro ducing those great and important changes ?"—(Cheers from the Opposition)—but it was for the House to say— when they looked back at those topics, and began to deal with those principles propounded by the Right Hon. Baronet, and tie consider whether they were not worthy of their most serious consideration—the reel question was, whether people were x prepared to undergo the pres sure for the' tariffs founded upon of incometax the principles of the measure proposed by the Right Honourable Baronet.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) He (Mr. Baring) did not now, for the first time, adopt the opinions which be had then expressed ; but he had entertained and expressed them year after year. When he had the honour of holding the office of Chancellor under the bite Government he expressed those opinions. He would then apply himself to that which was the most important consideration for the House, he should say that he could not allow the proposition of the Right Ho nourable Baronet to go forth without expressing the opinions entertained by him (Mr. Baring) in reference to that part of it which would press most heavily upon the country. He thought that the proposition of an income, tax was deserving of the serious and sober consideration of the country. They should consider whether that im post, which they were now to tie subjected to,.' should be carried on—whether there was any other possible and less objectionable mode, by which the rnoacy pro posed to be raised could be obtained.—(Hear, hear.) "V hen I e came down to the House , he had not the slightest notion that the Right Hon. Baronetintended to propose such a measure. He knew it would probably be necessary for him (Mr. Baring) and his friends to take a discussion upon the measure proposed by the Right Honourable Baronet ; and that it would be their duty to vindicate the principles of the measure which was proposed by thelate Govern ment—to show that it would be better to raise the sum of money proposed to be raised by the Right Hon. Baronet upon those principles than upon the principles and accord ing to the mode represented by the present Government. On hearing the statement made by the Right Hon. Ba— ronet, he believed it was not the intention of gentlemen on this side of the House to have opposed any tax that might have been proposed from the opposite side of the House, or to enter into any party step or proceed ings, so as to raise difficulties that would prevent the collection of the sums necessary for the public service. On this question— upon this tax only did they feel it ne cessary to give all that opposition to the proposal—the unfortunate proposal of her Majesty's Government, which they thought it merited.—(Hear, hear, _ hear.) .Was this a just tax ? Was this an equal tax ?—(Hear, hear.) These were questions of deep importance for the country to consider. Was it fair, that those who were in the permanent occupation of property—that those whose property descended from father to sun, who may dispose of it as they choose, should be taxed no more than those whose annual income depended not on their life or any particular age, but some casual accident, some unfortunate deprivation of sight, or some other of the many accidents to which humanity was liable, which might for ever deprive them of all chance of making any provision for their family. He believed the Right Hon. Gentleman was already aware of what that large and influential body, the Bank of England, thought of the proposal which taxed equally the annual produce of permanent funded property and terminable annuities. He could conceive nothing more unequal, unfair, and unjust, than that mode of tax ation. He had heard parties state that this was the fairest and most equitable mode of collecting a revenue, but he firmly believed that there was no tax which would work more unfairly, more unequally, or cause more dissatisfaction than this. He remembered when he was on that side of the House he had asked a question of the Bight Honourable Baronet —he was certainly rather unfortunate in asking ques tions of him—(A laugh)—as to what the Right Hon. Gen tleman would propose himself. He opposed his plans, and he asked him what he would do. He believed he would not have . that quesiion put to him to-night. He would not then shrink from the statement which he made when he had the honour of, occupying a seat on the benches opposite. On a former occasion, when the rneae sures of the late Ministry were opposed by the Opposi tion of that day, he used the following language:—" I do not ask from Hon. Gentlemen opposite that kind of infor mation which was wrung from me last year to the inconve nience of the public revenue—not their particular taxes, but the general course which they are prepared to adopt. I do not call ueon them to specify- the actual taxes they may propose, hut the general course of their policy."—(Hear, hear.). Now he was not pre pared to give a budget to the Eight Hon. Gentleman. Nothing, he thought, could be more indecorous and im proper than such a course. He should not certainly feel that he was justified in opposing even the present course of the Right Honourable Baronet, to which he objected, unless he thoUght that the other sources of the revenue offered a means of avoiding the calamity which he believed would follow the proposal of the Right Hon. Baronet. — (Hear, hear.) He had himself suggested last year a scheme for increasing the revenue of the country, but he would not go over the discussion of that scheme He had already explained the reasons which induced him to believe at the time, and which induced him still to think that money might be raised to meet to a great, if not to the entire extent, the exigencies of the State. He had proposed a plan by which he thought that a large portion, at least, of the public deficiency might be supplied ; and that pro posal was rejected. Could any man tell him that with the enormous amount of taxation which had been repealed since the war, it was necessary to have recourse to so obnoxious a proposal as that of the Right Hon. Gentleman ? In the Custom taxes there had been a reduction since the war of 7,500,000/. ; in the Excise there had been a reduction of 12,000,0001. ; and in the Stamps there had been a reduction of 866,0001. The Right Hon. Gentleman now proposed to levy a certain amount of taxation, not by direct taxes, but by another mode of taxation. 'fhe Right Hon. Gentleman stated that he did not mean that the income should extend to Ireland, but he proposed to give Ireland an equivalent for that tax, and he proposes taxes himself to the amount of 600,0001., that was to say 400,000/. in Ireland and 200,000/. at home. Part of this was direct taxation. Did they mean to tell him that if they could produce 400,0001. from Ireland with this means of taxation, that they could not find means of restoring public credit without appealing to that tax—(Hear) —which had hitherto been considered as the last resource of the Treasury, and to be applied to only in cases of the greatest difficulty ?—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Vansittart, in the year 1819, came clown to the House and asked for 3,000,00C1. which he considered ab solutely necessary for the preservation of public credit, but he found taxes without applying to this last resort ; and certainly this raise of 3,000,0000/. did not bring down the public welfare, for in the years 1822, 1823, and 1824, a larger amount of taxes was repealed. from additional consumption and improvement in the trade of the country.—(Hear, hear.) He thought he ought not to delay the House, but there was one point on which the Right Hon. Gentleman had not given any explanation--as to the machinery which he might employ. He could not help, therefore, calling the attention of the House to one important operation —he meant , the petition of the merchants of London, when the -previous tax.- was in existence . This petition was agreed to at a meeting stated to con tain all the wealth and respectability of the City of, London ; and it had been stated in the House, that there had been an attempt to get up a-counter petition, but this only received 23 signatures ; this petition came to the House expressing the experience and feeling of the whole mercantile classes in London ; and they would remember that that petition was moved in that meeting by the very gentleman who had been the author of the tax. Hear what was their experience and opinion as to the working of a measure similar to the one now before the House. The petitioners stated that a property or income tax was at variance with sound principles, and could only be submitted to in cases of the most urgent necessity, and that its operation upon trade and commerce would be most disastrous from its inqui sitorial character.—(Hear, hear.) They stated that during the late trying circumstances in which the h patience vexatious, • under the t e o o u n th tr e y t ievxa,s though et)literyeinsubmittedy wit conviction that on the return of peace the uu t a o x d i e fi v e o u u t l i d o b o e f tdhneaal o with.. They stated that no n in their opinion, the tax WAS obnoxious, in .principle, and would be an alarming p recedent, if, its time edetivlasy wo uld be effectual,. because, of peace, they had reco urse to those resources, which would 'only be adopted when. the honour and independence of . the countr y was involved ; and I concluded by stating that the tax would be in jurious, not only in diminishing the domestic comforts and prosperity of the country, but to its prosperity and honour. —(Hear.) Such was the . petition of the merchants of L ondon, p resented to t hat House on the 18th of March, 1816, the anniversary of the day on which the Right Hon. Baronet came down to explain a similar measure to the Hca7e. • —(Cheers.) That petiti on was received with a shout of unanimous applause b y p ersons of all parties. He hoped that in the course h e had p ursued h e had , as far as wa s possible, avoided anything like recrimi na t ory language, but he certainly entertained the deepest and 'most sincere feelings with regard to the proposition now before the House—(Hear' hear)—and if th e y were to stand alone, he should be happy to have recorded hi s dissent fr om What, he' believed to be an unnecessary tax. The CHANCELLOR of th e EX CHEQUER said it was perfectly natural that the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite shou ld have taken the earliest opport un ity of statingg his opinions o f t h e financial measure of her Dlajesty's Government, and he (the Chancellor cf the Exchequer) had no complaint to make of the tone in which he (Mr. Baring) delivered nimself. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would ab , stain from all recriminatory topics also and would confine hiniself to the arguments of the t Tion.Bar a How yeer,h,:: (the i - :hanctliur u trio E:tehequer)nitz• . his surprise that while the Right Honourable Ci ~. tlemen expressed his surprise of the measure proposed, he avoided stating what plan he would himself pursue. 1 What would have been the prise he left it to those to tell who He made r speech, but offered nothing for the House to • I had said that by imposing any duty upon the imp ertat . on of decide upon, so that what course the Right Hon. Gentle- i wheat - they would be starving the people and aggravating man would pursue, was as yet unknown to the House. i the existing distress, and producing all those consequences I The Noble Lord opposite said, that the Right Hon. whicil had been made the subjdectofofsom Houseu dc 1 a.: , n o a r i 0 15 11 for Gentleman would vote against the resolution in byd the G fin e c ri L t o li:m sio e n n . on ß tinie t h o i t s h a e r r side of thel reuce the Right Committee. He (the Chancellor of the -Exche quer) therefore thought that it would be more Ho 3 n. m Gentieman to this alternagtive itherlhat he would have - failed to obtain his revenue, from a diMinished consumption ; consistent with ordinary usage if he had re- or with an additional duty he aggravated the evils which a dearth served himself for the time when they could of corn in the present year hau produced ; and he would thus have tested the conflicting opinions of the House. have caused a further reduction in the consumption of those ar- As the Right Hon. Gentleman had travelled over a long tides which, notwithstanding the unfavourable character of the period and a great length of transactions, lie (the Chan- season, they had been enabled to purchase. The cellor of tilt Exchequer) would follow him along several Right Honourable Gentleman next adverted to the duty topics. The Right Honourable Gentleman com- °pun sugar ; and upon that subject the Right Honourable menced by referring to the period when Gent f le r m a an h o u b d s a er t ved, hi t l ha i t as he had d bee s n el acc e u n sed he ofahing in h va en in eh o es, the deficiency in the revenue of the country a had a t t all t e vents received lsterla he was happy e to ' in e e d ee ttl t aPa t t e he now calling for' a supply first began, for it was additional light since he had been removed to a more favourable for the accumulation of deficiencies, which corn- situation. He quite agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman menced in 1838-39 we had now to ' pro- in thinking that the other side of the House appeared to be vide, and according to the Right Honourable more favourable for that operation of fishing than the Gentleman's own confession it was the deficiency Treasury benches; for the Right Hon. Geniteman would re ef that year that led to those necessities which member, that when he was in great anxiety to raise a duty now obliged the Government to lay on fresh taxa- of about 700,C001. upou sugar, it was announced to him dis tion for the use of the State. The Right lion. tinctly from the Opposition side of the House, that if he would Gentleman said he was justified in having permitted the o m n i l , T h l t e t h the r a isugar without n t tak t L its al te c r o a u t r t s u e n , w th ,h e i rum h e o l f la 7 d oo e ,: e o a t. large deficiency that occurred in 1838 to remain at the end voured to effect. He stated it not with any vii:w to praise of the year, for there were no extraordinary occurrences those who had made the statement ; but it appeared obviously which called for a new tax on the public; and then he from the facts before them, that is reality the sugar duty had eulogised that system of borrowing and temporary realised within a few pounds of the sum which the Right Hon. arrangement which had brought the present Gentleman had required. That result, too, had been obtained misfortunes on the country—(Loud cheers)— without affecting the interests of the colonists by introducing a and which load entailed on the present Government, foreign commodity, and without giving an additionsi stimulus as it must have entailed upon any Govern- to the slave trade by discouraging the cultivation of free labour meat the necessity of new taxing the public sugar. Bat s the Right lion. Gentleman, after that meditation to repair the errors of tits ir predecessors. The Right ewinhcireth had found b e e a s t o t u h . a elu w l h to n h h im since u h n i e s e ret t ir a ement from his e p an p no osed d charge, h t7o l o le ,oo w o a l s . Hon. Gentleman referred to 1838-39, as if it was a time as the duty he expected that that promised permanent tranquillity end immediate labouring under some delusicn, and that he intended to have ease, and required no provisions for the exigencies of stated, or at least that he ought to have stated, mat instead of the State. Had the Right Honourable. Gentleman 700,0001. he aneatipa'ed a treceipt of 1,000,000/. But it was forgotten that in these two years, circumstances certainly rather late at the present moment for the Right were threatening enough to tell the Government that the. ' Honourable Gentleman to correct his error after seven finances of the country must not be allowed to or eight months had elapsed since the discussion of the subject. fall into delapidation and rein ? Had he for- Fle must confess that if he did not know the sincerity of the gotten : that in that year we had the mss- Right Hon. Gentleman in every statement that he made, he fortune to witness a serious revolution in Canada, should rather have conceived, if that statements were .to the causes of which lie (the Chancellor of madeb a y d a i n c oth dt e o r,, that as o ubsequent knowledge of subsequent the Exchequer) need not now particularly refer. But the Right Hon " Gentleman dg s m ai e r t o o f forget re t v h i a o t u s ertrer.wn These occurrences threatened to involve the country in an d t h e i r d i scuss i ng t h e sugar duties—that what they ue4 aid me increased expenditure for that year, and they was not only. to consider the revenue, though on that he had, in fact, entailed a great expenditure, which helped thought that the calculations could not have been substantiated to increase the deficiency. Was there not enough then if there were any validity in the statement then submitted by to warn a prudent Ministry that they ought not to go on, the members of that Governtnent. They (her Majesty',. or if they did go on they ought to continue at a future present Ministers) then obtectedthat if they were absent from time to avert the consevences. Not only was there a r inadequate supply of sugar raised by free labour in oar own colonies, they would encourage the sugar a want of energy shown in not providing for the exigen az e f r ear t s o that it was cies of the country ; but it appeared still more I Stated by t s h l e ave N Air t o e tuc ,r tif t . Iln tpeople,n from circumstances which he would detail. I ih a at ee slave r -labour sugar ( we ' uld e on e l a y m be produced a e t f a t tt Unalarmed as the Government were—expecting the trans there wee an absolute necessity for its production to supply quillit :to come, and unwilling to face the difficulty of new the exigencies of the c iuntry n e and the Noble Lord fixed on taxes— they reduced the balance of the country below the 61s. Bd. as the price at. which h&ekpected foreign sugar would amount at which for a long time it had been maintained. be introduced. if the Noble Lord was right when he thought (near from the Ministerial side.) At the period to which; it could only be introduced at 61s. Bd., then if the Right Hon. referred, that is, the sth of January, 1837. the balance Gentsemau would-look at the price of sugar in the market was 6,490,0001.. On the sth of January last year during the whole sear, he would find that the period now had it was reduced to 3,500 0001.—(Cries of "Hear, arrived when 61s. Bd. was the price at which the sugar of , hear.") And let not the house suppose that this foreign colonies could have come into the consumption of this b ru e in prepared h%re s t to ;. r d t g a i t that r.ed e the e, measure 81. wasre was an inconsiderahle evil, or one which they might put country nt calculatedi l , ; h u em ei s th t e t r h t e o e out of consideration in dealing with matters of not calculated to produce that revenue which produce, no's'? found— finance. The balance was intended to,,provide for the in opposition to his former estimate—that it might by poisi payment of the debt due in January ; and, so far as it bitity have produced. But the Right Hon. Gentleman went was reduced, the Government was obliged to re- into ealeulatioas to show that we were under considerable ap ter to the Bank of England by the . issue of prehensions now as to the probable insullic ency of the supply Exchequer Bills in order to meet the demand, thus of sugar during the er.suing year ; and in order to show this, they made the country dependent on that great establish- ire had referred to statements showing the quantity of :agar in went, and deranged the currency by compelling the bond this time last year, the quantity since rebeived, and the probability of what was yet to conic. Consider ng the opinion bank to limit its issuing for its own protection. that this House expressed as to the expediency of not giving The effect of the abstinence of the late Government from pressing on the people by the imposition of !;.nacooura,goseimtieonnt to that th s4gar the t p r roduee of slave- t labour, , free-labour, t.er t he 'l e the ut_ 1 new taxes, was to leave an aggregated defi- quantity li of that sugar grown t e s y ufficieritciency for five consecutive years.—(hear, bear.) eumpeon of the country, he thought the Right lion. This was an evil which it was impossible for the Gentleman had nos been successful as far as his calcala present Government to put aside in dealing lions relatve to the probable deficiency was concerned. The with the finances of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Rignt Honourable Gentleman adverted to the quantity The next point to which the Right Honourable Gentle- of sugar in bond, and if be (the Chancellor of the man had adverted was with a view of showing Exchequer)` understood him, his st a t emen t was , th a t as his opposition to the statement of his Right the quantity in bond at present had diminished, it was Honourable Friend, that taxes on consumption therefore evident that the consumption of the year had exceed e d had not been unproductive to the degree his Right the Rightim importation. lie ethnttiluegmhatnit t 0 0 0u k l n d o be tisfactory to the in ra his G Hon Friend asserted. Here he must say, that (the Chancellor c s r v f that the thibxecrhewquas ono the Right •, Honourable Gentleman must have fouudatione opinion for that statement. The Right Honour e a r bl! been misunderstood altogether, for he had extremely Gentleman founded his statement upon the representa misrepresented the argument used on that occasion. He tions of the \Vest India bode when the subject was under dia• had supposed that his Right Hon. Friend stated that cession last year ; that the quantity of sugar in bond amounted the additional 5 per cent. of duties not having raised to 35,000 tout, but he ascertained the quantity in bond in Lon the full amount of revenue expected, the 5 per cent. den, Liverpool, Bristol, and Glasgow, did not at present. itself was the cause of the revenue not having in• exceed 29,000 tons, and looking to the accounts which creased, But . that was not the argument. came to his knowledge from the West Indies on 'His Right Honourable Friend wished to the one hand, and the East Indies on the other, he had no reason to doubt that the total quantity of sugar for the ensue show that the consumption of the country was so y would amount to between 260 and 280 tons • and, effected by external circumstances at thepresent moment, co g nsit e lerine that the largest quantity ever consumed in' any that if he proposed to • make the smallest possible, year was (Curing the last year, end that the amount was 203,000 addition to taxation of this kind, the effort would neces- ' tons, the House would perceive that there was an ample mar sexily-be unavailing. His Hon. Friend took the total ket for that consumption which they all so much desired to amount of the customs for 1840 and 1841, to see.( Hear, hear..) With respect to timber, the Right and showed, by taking the amounts of the' le n Hon. Gentleman calculated an income of 600,000/ ; but there venue from this source, he showed a failure in the was one consideration with respect to this subject, to which plan of the Right Honourable Gentleman. . He the Right Hon. Gentleman never gave a definite answer. It told the Right Honourable Gentleman that he was expected by the people of Canada, and it was agreed to had included in his account the amount of the by the Government of. this country, that when a measure so deeply affecting the interests of the people of Canada, as a di corn duty, which ought to ' 'have been ex chided from the calculation.—(Hear.) Now, he 'was l a tn , t y l e tt i m tim ot e ' tthoe withdraw timdutfirco•smwaas trade which j i he h y ad sh b o e u e l n d be afraid that the Right Hon. Gentleman would not muc h a lt ere d. Th e G o v er nm e nt a l so a t th a t ti m e derive much advantage as to the main point- at were in possession tf the opinion of Lord Syden issue between them, from the observations he had ham, who said that an alteration should not take place, made upon the statement of his Right Hon. Friend. within the year, but at some distant period, so as to make the. The question the House load to decide was this, could timber which they had, in their possession come under the they, with any prospect of raising a revenue, impose on old scale of duties ;.a.nd when the Right Hon. Gentleman pro articles of consumption, taxes to-the amount of three posed an alteration in the duties of. Canada timber, they ought y the revenue they. required, ' .once millions'; or if the could do so with :mi to have heard from him whether he meant that the altered duties prospect of raising. ss J should come at into operation, or whether he intended to .d eed ' eferenceto he position of the ode of Canada - and would it be without' ' laying such additional t P l a ;e y ex e pressed opinion t of the Governor-t:m people of Canada,- and would it be without - laying - such - additioruri the expressed opinion of the Governor-General that he ought to burdens on the trading, manufacturing, and commercial wait until a subsequent period. But the Right Horn. Gentle interests of the country as would be preductive Of greater man referred to the Report of the Committee of 1821, justify revilS . than another s; stem of taXifioti which was ing his measures with respect to timber. The Report stated that open to them. He (the Chancellor of the Ex- when the duty on Canadian timber was 10s., that on Baltic chequer) had had a , paper drawn Up, stating timber should be 555., and having referred to this, the Right the produce derived from certain articles of re- Hon. Gentleman asked the House to be guided by his But what was the principle of the revenue in the year .1840, and he had added to these principles. Right Hon. Gentleman? h It was to . impose a new duty on several articles what would have been the produce of the per tentage which the Right Hon. Gen- that timber, ia n ,. t and r e l s u e h b i ey. r vi e r e h t l e dim a .in s i r sh en th a e me c u o e n t su f m re ptio t n ha o t f , tleman had proposed to add to the several duties paid upon 'deltic timber which w g ould not be sufficiens to m cause He then compared the total results in one case and an additional consumption of that timber in thie country to the other, shewing, and without the possibility reduce the comparative difference between the two to 305., it of error, what was the proposed increase from the having been, on the recommendation of the Committee, 455. additional 5 per cent., and what was the actual result. Yet the Right lion. Gentleman argued that he had acted on It was useless to go into details on these subjects. He the principle of the Report of the Committee of 1821, and would, however, allude to one or two articles. On the artie leaving the House in a state of uncertainty as to detail., as sured them that from his ie plan he would have raised 600,000/. de of coffee, the article produced according to the Right to the revenue. l (the Chancellor of the Ex. Hon. Gentleman's estimates of the imposition of the addi hequer) did not mean now to go into the details of tional duty of 5 per cent. ought to have been 890,0001.—the that topic, not being furnished with sufficient know- taking actually produced was only 870,000/. That was ledge of the mode the Right Honourable Gentleman would taking the period in which the duty had beenreceived for pursue ; but he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would ob the whole year. On sugar, the amount that ought to have serve, that doubling the duty on Canadian timber would have been received was 5,117,000/.; the amount actually received di m i n i s hed its consumption in this country, whil e t a ki ng o ff was only 4,310,000/. On wino the amount ought to 1-11th of the duty on Baltic timber would have little advanced have been 1,998,0001.; the amount actually received was its consumptioa, and that therefore its operation would have been 1,806,000/. only. On timber the amount actually received t o i n flict great injury on the produce of Canada, a n d grea t er had approached nearer to the estimate of the Right Hon. injury on the feelings and affections of its inhabitants, while it though in no way that he could see, have pro. Gentleman, the amount that ought to have been receiv ed amount that the Ri ht Hon Gen] ight t il e e m n an G e e xl t e l eted. . t eu might ee d possibly', h e e te was 1,590/.. the duty actually received was 1,540/. Havine - now refereed to the topics the R * 'There was a loss of revenue upon a list of 75 articles, none introduced in connexion with his budget of lasi year, he m ( n tl a i n e of which had produced the amount which they ought Chancellor of the Exchequer) would now come to a question to have produced, if the additional duty of that was far more important for the consideration of the House five per cent. had answered the expectations —that-was the mode in which the House was prepared to make of the Right Hon. Gentleman: the loss thus occasioned up the great exis ing deficiency, which during hve years had amounted, in round numbers, to a million. The same been permitted to,accumulate, and in what manner they could thing had taken place with regard to the Excise Duties, impose burdens on the people the least oppressive, the least on bricks on malt, and on several other articles. .restrictive on the p ro g ress of commerce, trade , and manufac- But, said the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, tures, and the me_s h t e ef i f t e i ct;l l v t e l f i or the purposes of the revenue.— ot - !. Gentleman said his own view the First Lord of the Treasury has stated the question (Hear, hear. T on ar ides of consumption ; unfairly, and the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Baring) of duties Government but the answer . was, that we ) should still lay was,. that if those . duties could be went on to show . that instead of a deficiency made productive, yet in present circumstances it would be better, of 200,000/., he ought to have stated that an fairer, and more conducive to the general interest, increase of 1,700,000 had taken place. The Ri g htell on• to take those funds which the State required from the Gentleman had taken corn, and said that the duty paid extensive capital of the country through the medium in 1840 was 1,000,0001., but the duty paid in 1841 was only of its income, than from litytr.v, on fresh burdens on all articles 500,000/. If the Right Hon. Gentleman would deduct the of consumption—a course ,which, indeed; would affect the one amount from the other, he would-find the balance higher orders in common with the lower, but would fall most added to the amounts already stated by his Right Hon. heavily-on the middle and lower classes of society. This was Friend would amoun) instead of a million to 700,0001. the principle on which the Government, and the Right Hon:' Mr. F. T. BARING made an observation across the" Gentleman (111 r. Baring) were at issue. -(No, no.) He affirmed table, which was inaudible. ' he held . 'in his hand a list of the taxes repealed since the Con- The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER; in re- , elusion of the war, subsequent to the Customs' duty, and these ply to the Right Hon. Gentleman, said that hist Right amounted to 7,500,0001., and he pointed to them as a source Hon. Friend, at the head of the Government, had from which they might turn to make up the deficierule ' But throughout dealt with the groSs account of the Ex- how c o u l d they increase the Customs duties without interfering chequer, and that was the only fair way, for unless they -e ith the consumption of the people, and •• obstructing dealt with it in that way they could not know the effect ommerce and manufactures ?—(Hear, hear. hear ) In the Excise the taxes repealed amounted to 12,000,0001. which any tax would produce on the consumption ofthe Would t h e t Ri g ht 11011. Gentleman have them re•inipose the country. A great establishment might be necessary for the duty on salt ?—(Bear.) He (Mr. Raring) said that the in= collection of certain duties. A large amount might be col- come tax was, inquisitorial, and yet he recommended those ex lected ; although great deductions might be made from it rise imposts which, if not so inquisitorial as to the mode of in its progress to the Exchequer—and if they collection, were most vexatious and injurious to the manufac dealt merely with the net revenue, they would turer. In consequence of the reduction of the duty, salt had not know the effect produced on the country; become largely used in manufactures ; and there could be no the Government, therefore, had throughout, dealt doubt that the tax would be productive, and it would no doubt with the gross and not with the net revenue. relieve those who had large money capital from which, under the income tax, they would have to pay.—( Hear, hear.) 'The The Right Honourable Gentleman said when an evil which it wou'd entail on the manufaeturers would be far increased duty of 4d. per gallon had been proposed greater ff than any that could be produced by the income tax.— upon spirits in Ireland, that an opposite result ( ear, hear.) Would he return to the tax upon tallier can would occur from that which was anticipated. He dles?—(Hear)—which would fall upon a class of consumers (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could give an who were certainly not the rich and wealthy, who would have answer to that charge. True - it was he did propose t o to pay t h e income tax.—(Hear, hear.) It would increase the duty on spirits in Ireland, because he found fall upon the poorest class of • the people, after that what he had apprehended in the measure proposed suffering great misery, and always great inconvenience, last year by the Right Honourable Gentleman He might go through the whole of the Excise duties, for they opposite did not exist now. He found that spirits in were all more or less liable to the same objections. There Ireland had been increasing, notwithstanding the addi- was the soap duty—(Hear)—a duty on an article indispeesably tional duty imposed upon it ; and he (the Chancellor of necessary to many of their manufactures, and daily coming into more extended use, and while thus essential to manufactures, the Exchequer) was q u it e , sure th a t th e d u t y on spirits equally necessary to the comfort of the lower orders, with the in Ireland could be increased without affecting either theexpress view to whose relief it was taken off. spirit trade, or the morals of the people.—( Hear. ) The Right Then there was tbeer tax—( Hear, hear)—and that formed about one-fourth Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Baring) then entered into a defence of of the amount of those Exeise duties held up by the Right 'the measure proposed last Session by the late Government. He Hon. Gentleman as a model for their imitatio n . It had been the Chancellor. of th e E xc h equer i th oug ht th a t th a t meas ure hi s (th e Chancellor of the Ex c h equer ' s ) good fortune, about had been so repeatedly ag it a t e d, an d t h e op i n i ons o f th e H ouse ten years s i nce , t o re p ea l th a t d uly—( Hear hear)--anti the had been alr ea dy so w e ll k nown an d „ genera lly ex p resse d, b o th pr i nci pl e o n which the Government repealed it was the wsh to in that House and out of it, th a t it w ould- not be necessary res tore to the lower orders ofthe power of now for the Right Hoo. Gentleman(Mr. Baring) to advert to making greater use of a better society and more whole• it. But as th e Right Hon. G en tl e ma n had advert dto that so me beverage, and on e th e most beneficialto their measure, and as it was made applicable by him to many of his health and strength. lie believed th a t th e H ouse would sye' - arguments, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) felt it nieces- pathise with him in his unwillin mess to sary to follow the Right Hon. Gentleman in the detail he had (Cheers.) There were other unties he re- nn h p t ose that tut -- brought forward. The first proposition of the Right Hon. he should not go through the whole ot r ' fi t i lle longeeartatleo,y,,bnue.t Gentleman lea% that if the fixed d u ty u p on c orn proposed by There were the duties brought forward by theßight Hon. the late Government was adopted, it would have considerably 1 Gentleman in opposition to the views of the Government, and . increased the revenues. The Right Hon. Gentleman said the Ihe argued in favour of these duties, which, if levied with duty on corn then produced 590,000/. ; but if his prpposition Of vigour and activity, would perhaps produce from the lower a fixed duty of eight shill.ngs a quar t er upon f ore i gn cor n was a nd poorer classes the resources they required, while he (the adopted, instead of that 500,0001. there would now he in Chancellor of the Exchequer) maintained, on , . behalf of . the the possession of the Governme n t th e sum o f 900,000/. on Government, that the period had arrived when, instead of un new burdens, relexation to account of the Exchequer. As the Right Hon. Gentleman poring held the office of Chancellor of. the Excheqver, he must have comma,l. cme e encouragement a o n u d ghttoenieavour t o give to industry, and known that in riiitters of finance two and two do not make , that could onl be effected b taxing the wealth and pros four. It must s fellow then that if corn was admitted into this the .1406. Gentleman thinks purity of the Y countev (Hea y r, we hea m r, and t cheers.) But country as it. was now at a duty of 3s. sd. a 'quarter, that it 1 ht have recourse would have been consumed to a greater extent, and that the i to the assessed taxes. Now, what were t h e objections to the power of purchasing it wou ld b e greater t h an if the duty' bad ' t , window tax and the house tax, in reference to their effect en been raised by the Right Hon. Gentlemaa to Bs. a nuarter, the classes the were an itrai . to , relieve?. Were the objections to their effect t Y in the we a s'.l,-. or That must be' the effect of the measure of the Right Hon. Gentlemon it, operating upon the present year if the duty e. s 3 •" • co mplaint fm,,, a il t e e re ieen, order; of society, from alt eo. increa;ed to as. a quarter. (An Hon. Member on the Oppe- , g age d, is ti teof indus t ry and trade, whose dwellings i le otesupa sons were they rot the Subjectsto sitiou benches here asked, .. What would have been the price ?") 1 e ra x t e i e o e n d; d the He li s m he it u s ld u n po e n t p w t h ir i s c u n e t t h h e is ta s sure, whatever might be the feelings of the Hon. Gentleman.. and of those who acted with him, that the feeling of the coun ( Hear, hear.) try was decidedly against the re-imposition of those ta.xes.o--n, for a period of difficulty and distress, when it would be . .ec was sary .to call forth every exertion, he thought it able It they were o reserve in their armoury we r ap es, lcubwjeacstifrueruthgebrt. in ti n e 7a „ale)! Honour better to reserve those taxes which the Gentleman wished to impose, than to r e t,l the property tax for a period of danger and difficulty. J.': Hon. Gentleman says that a property tax, under no cirvictimast' stances, ought to be imposed except in a time of war. of . . s .-, was the difference between peace and war as to the necessity _ ; s sa imposing taxation ? They imposed taxation, not merelyanec,, cause they were at war, but because that iu war there w e . a.'__ 9 .4 13 : - ,,, d fficulty of raising a revenue, because they were involved r i a s, --s:" 1 _ 1 1 debt, and wanted to extricate themselves from the d"°11:1u1-";t17-o which they stood. Were they not now precisely in thia_ k _ ...:.„ ro tion ?-( Cheers.) Had they not gone on year after year,.P° r _ . ::•-".- rowing during a nominal peace, but a real war-( real war as far as the effect on the finances of the country icettld, i 4.111, indicate it? If the Right Hon. Gentleman required the l l_ _.,, nieal name of war to justify him - in imposing a properts tZ .147 .r', Cheersl .! ,;;,. W H O e U l l v d ou a ld sk th h el ir se t e o th l a o t ok we at we th re e e E n a g s a t g .- ed ( i l n in , l c n a e e n , s; b e t h e e h c : i l it il es sa2-" ther glorious to our arms, as in China, or disastr° lll 9l - o „,! o 4ssil some other portions of the East, yet produced the effec e t o addi., : 10 tailing upon the country the necessity of providing f f o r coes,..se, tional expenses , and he felt assured that no one wouldss for .3. , ~,5 moment, consent to let the glory of England• be tarrn i s io n urt eu v.: so w want of funds to support it. The Right 0 ° I I anst ss si) Gentleman said that the income tax would press u neqha tr Y ) th e , , , ,, ae tt unfairly on different classes. Why, on his wq dow ° ,,, q .) had. s nee' House that evening, he (the Chancellor of the Eiebe c l a " - i,egh), leg seen a string of gentlemen walking with placards---(" t " iiiss a . ,i /10 -he did not, of course, mean Hon. Gentlemen-(C°,°.squ.: „sr:" laughter)-and on those placards were inscribed , " - 1.1 4' 11 - i g h i t sition, no injustice, no inequality of taxation ;" and t ,'" s un- Hon. Genth man had said that it was an unequal arm ' nu itti 4 just tax. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) w I it v as sensible that taxation was a necessary evil . as a impossible to devise a tax which would not preo_ a he heavy burden upon some class of the community' t al . ; v as would not take upon himself to say that a proPe rt Y 11 „the exempt from those objections which were applicable to aid they taxes. Let them look at the taxes on consumption. ) r an d operate equally ? Did they press equally on the h i g h e a t hat on the lower orders of society ? Let it be recolleetesurirs,,, there were articles which were considered mere' , ats ,0 g oat by the upper orders, but which were actually necessarilt°7-flon,eo the lower orders. All that had been said by the Rig" e o Utkail , Gentleman about the iniquisitorial and vexatious nat ° „ r t v -ith property tax had been said with equal force, although r t s' e a,dons /id) equal eloquence, by many litu. Members on former °c as i o o of --:', against the Excise ; and it would be said on every re% ote t to every tax b those individuals on whom it might be a n , the -s'' prsss.-( Hear.) In brieging forward this propositioettities:kio Government had not been insensible to the dif fi geas ,), di that they would have to encounter.-(Cries of '' ' o w/ ; . 0 11 They knew that by striking at the property of th e , c , t hen' .7 9 s they were raising a strong feeling in the country aga,,`„`, ss that • ' selves, but they knew enough of the country, to ","",,, was s i f whatever might be the strength of that feeling, t" e ; eo uglt s- enough of respect left for the - honour of the ceuntry, to ot ~ of affection for the institutions of the country, and her.,..tong, ' desire to uphold them to overcome the feeling, howe st - of its ' ' which might be entertained apinst the tax on accouh c o o- : inequality---4 question which would be better discussed in ,if mit tee-or against the manner in which it was to be l a, an d sti a manner which would be hereafter proposed, discus s ' lion• se it might be, amended.-( Hear, hear.) The °e t in tb ° .'''' Gentleman also, it appeared, objected to the alterations does s; tariff, and said that duties had been reduced without had o as , 0 tion of any principle. The Right Hon. Gentleman h ir a „,dirig i 'f'. a jocular allusion to the first article hi the tariff as 81 ' . ; OW ' l !' specimen of the conduct of the Government. Now, t are er, I S cipic which the Government had adopted was to e" w ait/ :,;' by a great relaxation in the protecting duties, to give a ono' " fur the introduction of many articles of great use to tbe sib i t ed, • factures of the country which had been in effect pron.,.r- an e ~ and thus to . endeaveur to promote the interests of our trade commerce, by facilitating our intercourse with foteilr.„, had, (Cheers.) It was certainly true that a di,tinct4fesr,/!' been made in favour of our colonial possessions.--1-aistantv He thought that when out fellow-countrymen wen t to e 0 05 4 Farts of the world and established possessions, and in sl t ly the • i tounded empires in a manner calculated to benefit gre ... ,,, 0. mother country, that it was our duty to give to them , "r Dori 1, , ,m-subjects, the same advantages which we claimed fooddid selves against the introduction of foreign merchandi se ', w as the .' not pretend to say that the tariff was perfect, but 0911,sosal principle upon which the Government had acted in,P7ebi it. The Hon. Gentleman had alluded to the ,lo P l if e rati ° ' would be inflicted on the cork cutters by the proposed* ha d no t in the tariff. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) the sob' yet received a deputation from the cork-cutters on on e la, ject, although he had appointed to receiv e e a ter Pt the course of a few days, and therefore he would not tie a rli hat. present into a discussion upon the merits of that goe s 00 01 " he would ask how it happened that the Right Hon. Ge!, t ier', had paid so little regard to the interests of the o rk a - r i e o' last year, when he had proposed his alterations in the t Ito i l it!!," which occasion a deputation of the cork-cutters had apPlit.'' jco lE, (the Chancellor of the Exchequer Right the subject, an d " a e (Mrlf Baring) of the manner in which theg Hon. Gend erea- aain w e. Baring) had refused to pay any attention to their Os: ., cornl b;ec t " The Right Hon. Gentleman had not referred to the saca'sseoPl.•• tobacco. But who was it that thought of gi v ' v g ,jteetl grown in all the possessions of the Crown a further a he h . : over the tobacco grown in foreign countries ? 1 " 0 the, thought of that ? Why, they had not long since la ic ', rill 1 table of that House a petition most respectably sign e " h :h , t'l East India Company, staling in the strongest terms the otos ship which they sustained from not being put " t "we ,t2tl ; footing .as regarded their productions with the se j o til hemisphere. They were told of the hardship,,the ,aced 0 0 t h ' t sustained from not having their sugar and ruin ga d c ie e s;..oe tl' e ll s . ll, same footing as similar commodities in the Wes t was the course which the Government took upon tb a 1 , sion? Why. they referred the petition to a Conlin itte 4l , rd. k Committee framed a Report, and the Government . ~,. 1., came forward with a measure to equalise the duties ii:4'itafs., hemispheres.-( Hear, hear.) They acted upon th e "„,; . tbe t s, of encouraging the trade of the East Indies, and gi' .- is tni every facility foe the transfer of their commoditieabich nss-,.. country. Tobacco was one of the very articles, ( 0 , ett ra been referred to the Committee in question; an d t. " li f e te ment, acting on the general principle of eneour t ag in t h g e t le4 o of the East Indies, made tobacco one , Of ' i s ' a V,, i objects in their new scheme. That steP rs ft : doubt most important to the interests °4 9 ' ,'„,, and he, for one, should never be ashamed of ba , rt 4 A 0 • • petition of this portion of the great empire, to which to' . . sarily, from a superiority of our manufactures, hrt 4 r l,' s distress and misery. He should not regret that/n, IR,lt. leased their tobacco from the duty, and had given, portunity of sending that commodity to this coati i hoped that, by encouraging the growth of other , - fo_ h that which had been the subject of our dispute 'Ai"' s s feS e . „II should enable them to abstain from growing those art . '( s a l, had involved us in positions of difficulty and,dang er ',":to o ,lfoar He thought he had now touched on most of the pow7d. _,, , e 0 the Right Honourable Gentleman had 'O ver- erciFi e r, the • e - should have occasion, ,no doubt, in to I lsr of the discussion on which they were about m ei , ' 0 • to trouble the House on matters connected` with the P 0 1 it . . tax which had been propoaed for their consider ation :o o3 to explain, in common with his colleagues, the mod e it' oel 4 el ' was proposed to mitt, and to render it as little o he e eto rt . the people as could be consistent with the levy - ° I , t , of f g e g es which was required. The House, however, linu s ; ',„;" be t lsel the result of this preliminary debate, that the ques t ,' - t her iors the Right Hon. Gentleman and himself was, 11.°e ,1 1 , ', e ' , • should lay a tax on property, and s i n oultane °°- etaetr or relief to labouring commerce, to labouring m a si n ani s i l"'less to suffering people, and to an agitated corn - o eso air whether they should resort to taxes which, t o te on d i , burdensome on the higher orders, would, pr.e 9s , 11 t heY i 'f e lt , lower, would be less heard of in the circle to whit` les' s e' vidually moved, but would not on that account Li t he r: o . and inflict less injury on the permanent interest s % Me sit a',. munity.-(Hear.) He could seriously say that no in % cif 5 1 e' bonred more than he had to avoid having recourse to . oeP o p , which would be considered by many a burdensorail't eire e to ' but it was his sineere conviction that under the Pr e s se i s oba ‘ rf s re stances-encumbered with a debt which we must "to t'"ib a' .. maintain receipts equal to expendithre; with a view, h oc' s ,' , servation of the empire abroad and our character oitleee,`tsi9 l' conceived that it was necessary to successfully ,:v-atotei, that he should give his best exertions to brill lOcot'veeh particular measure, and he trusted that, whatever t her se es ences might result, it would ultimately produ ce i. the , 1° o f dence of the world at large, in the energie s e o d:,, l i yi ple, and in the. sacrifices which the bigh er ,hit e s ,' th e classes were willing' to make to remedy the P re- s tiol!' the country, and to elevate the character of our °- the ht eyes of every country in the wor'd. 1, o' 4 lo s ,' Lord HOWICK commenced by saying tha t - s e ecte. Coo s ' attention of the House would be more properly' i''' t jo a bier' details of the measure proposed by the Governinen.eor °the,' mittee of Ways and gleans, and there were pa! t ,' befor e , Adi tions to it which he would urge at such a time; P u t , at gr e jl e y came to a detailed discussion it seemed to him ''' s ,ol P e i P_A e vantae miht arise from a discussion on the gen' n ,sen' t orts* the financial arrangements of her Majesty's Gor' r- r e l're' the • thought the House and the country would be 01°. ,site ° oir to enter the debate, and the particular questionto ea' I)," general principles of the meaanra before ',b e d bet 4 e,e ll ; he teiceonawlioti.uot Cussed, and discussed in the manner it, eager,'n'„ersibie' his Right Honourable Friend. T.he Right tio y t , tleman opposite (the Chancellor et h en 0,40 -; id' t .' - had said, that if the measure now before the i tt ett e po lie,y a culated to be onerous to the country, the bleo e e a tO t ! ? „a 53.1 persons who now stood around him. Be referre $ h $ ly dal of the late Government during the last four Y e , e r slif P / ,o'. that measures should have been earlier taken ; m a' I.l.eio`oe II . exigencies of the country. That might be what; .eils ° a per' Howiek) would not say a word in defence of inel o se' the late Government, though he had the honours'sethtei, erg t° tion of that time, of being himself a member n - ese c s °,,,,,' ant t t ',. ment, purposes p l e eo H a dds t e eetsfih h " en e a . dn t o iude g n. o o t o ß n t h , ui a tn n kw d hi ftiol wise , i n sf o eo t rt p ot r h ° ae r bi : sta le; ni. iOt the l b: f ps di g naot t e i se e ,: ; or r o.r ;6 l of the House by a discussion, when great were concerned, as to whether certain lie s rs e s s e.-: - , c, rig!' for two or three years judiciously or the r e th - e y'w er e b irco w : fer t h th e e la P t li e rt , l3 o 6 ,,te n ; :n u r r e e ' ee lat", What they had to consider was not whether e eetho it the w two or three years ago, but what was the nat ° ', e w hieh th o sn h s, stances in which they were placell? I he e°ur ation °f ' e O ig f became there to assume was the serious considerr. Ne V. th e et tio,:, ject, and to that alone should he, address hirortieteent the e l , Hon. Baronet opposite, in his very able ( L ord slow; ce se . ,! ) , a : fte :, irv:aheviielel righting te in a s blamings u e night, condemned in language which he n ot to r r , rd P si mined was not too strong, that they ehtdebt. Ile ( a °lte sv, any course by which they could accumulate rottet ,.an mig ht ,o , entirely concurred with the Right - gnus l ee whic h „ s ain t ,' prepared for one to acquiesce in any countrysacrl s ....to . _,, e t _„ necessary to maintain the honour of the ...... at tbe,-a e "eocn i l o , ital . ) our necessary es..ablishment, civil and mil • ~„ entirelY t to 1',,,, s o far e make 00 phi, avoid any augmentation of debt. If i, c ould rn a he red with the Right Hon. Baronet. ii " e - Which. t hongo (Lo d Howcik) that these trae,s new iek) _ e te se , posed, objectionable as he (Lor 4 tax es lye' se vens if he could make out that thsee _,,,, c i e et ' c oo, s . use a “"'", 1 he e k s' indispensable in order to prod debt- -4 goo' 08 in order to avoid any increase 0 ,_, a (Lora . „ o t os , make out this, he was prepared to take_ . 1._,. oessociin it odae measure of responsibility as a member of tna' then ther ban 'i ' lg " 11 o ' l for the proposal. But he thought, on in irnP °s ` ,tY ' T S be admitted that they were not justifie a ne ce ra ,l i t oo ersource9 re cal t• burdens of this description on the people unless j hea tba. cause were made out. If there were oth „ , s so ar e J a. et ro e_ 0, ~ s _ e t , revenue could be raised-if without pre-ine e „ 0 their constituents they found other inea u n7 se d s ...if o _ l o o j revenue which our honour and safety reqt.trirg that ey . str9 be done they were not justified in adoP ' _ ere eer3:s,„ t_, which no Mon. Member would deny there _ow of rats 1110 objections. But in examining the 9 1 3 su v tt o esto a ce , it a e first r 0 revenue he would ask the Right Hon. aroo lle 00 0, ease. He (Sir R. Peel) told them in t s Gentl e s ,f 0f,,,a/' reference to the measure of the Right tao" s aot ircs' ett , tom . Member for Portsmouth), of obtaining vair' sse opin,4o r:d come, and upon which the House held an eavfia n ot ~,,0 eij, if there had been a fixed duty on corn, it I r ma ttp,iBco• lieved the people. He (Lord Howick) was ; I° , l f r ont ta!_ a l ',O this subject again, but after what had fan! _, ac hlre,7: i et ~j Hon. Gentleman opposite, who had Jub s ' bses satle . l ,tsc4 `House, it was imcossible to avoid one or . tw0 r ,... w. ) ii,‘..o etfli the subject. Hi; Right Hon. "item_ •. , i , • Pf„, no ti, 1 4 0 0 had been URr - t be I that if last year a fixed duty of Bs. .___, to would have been, that instead of 4005 ~./ 44 1 1 1 1 Q eL .4•; .14, qv 144 4 i .1 • ‘1.4. 1 t i/s. 1, 41 , t.itj; 1, 1, 1 / 4 13 .14 z~~ a < F ~ ~ ' D 5~ R~ ~~. G~ U ~y fin