The Sun. — London, England, 1820-10-18 00:00:00

meet the substance of those answers, though he should certainly vote against the question either - way,—(A langh.) rEhe . Loltb cH.ANELLOR then put the modified q . tieiit ion to_ the Judges, wio retired a few miuutes to fore one.o'clock: • At seven miliutes after two the Judges re- turned.. 'Fle CHIEF J usvcE stated that in consequence of "the importance "of the question submitted to him and his Learned Brethren,' ,they requested of the House to be allowed till 0 -morrow morn ing, th take the 511bject into further conside ration. _ The Loan Ch ANcELLou then moved that the Hon-se should adjourn till to-morrow morning. The Earl of CARNARVON conceived that the House Were,sitting ' most Unprofitably, discitssing Points of law which had no connection whatever• with the policy or necesity of the line of exami nation proposed. Whether according to the ruleS of evidence a conspiracy could or could not be alloWed to be prord,wthe real question which their Lordships tnusT ultimately come to, decide was, whether they would submit- to the request of the - Ministers of th...! Crown, tirst:to giVe them the human 'sacrifice for which they thirsted, and when they had got their victim, to inquire for - what crime that . victini had-been brought to the altar. Their Lordships might do -very well to amuse themselves with putting questiOns to the Judges, but to that question they must come 'at last. Had they not better meet it manfully at once ? But if they 'preferred waiting till the Judges had decided a point of law totally irrele vant to a point of duty, he should not further ob ject to their wasting their time in doing that, - as he conceived they could not waste it in a worse manner than they had hitherto done., Lord ExsKl E wished to add - a supplemental • - question to the JudgeS, which would legalize that object on which their Lordships had expressed•so much"difference of opinion. The question tvhich he wished to ask was this.: " 'Whether, suppos ing that, - according to the rules of law, evidence of a conspiracy to suborn witnesses in support of any prosecution ought•not to be admitted, except So far as it applied to the prosecutor or . theagent employed by him, general 'eVidence of such a conspiracy would not, nevertheless, in the first instance be received' as a prelintinary step to in stituting criminal proceedings against the Prose cutor himself or the agent employed by him, and whether the sane rules as to receiving evidence did not apply with respect to indictinga Defend ant in case of a counter=conspiracy ?" The LORD CHANCELLOR, acting on the same principle which .had induced him ,to express a wish that some Noble Lord would refer the for mer point to the decision of the. Judges, fully as sented to the propriety of. also putting the pre sent question. 'Lord ERSKINE'S question was then referred to the consideration of the Judges, and the House adjotirned at Half-past Two, till to-morrow morning. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The Si'EAKER, came down to the House at the usual hour, and having:counted.the Members, took the Chair at a few minutes before four o'clock: - - • - A person frorn.the Court of Requests pre sented certain -Papers, showing the amount of Fees received' at the Court of Requests in the Borough of Southw'ark.—Ordered to lie on the table. PETITION FROM• LIVERPOOL. Geperai GASCOIGNE held 'a Petition in his , band, on asubject to-which he felt it to be his duty to his Country and his, Constituents to call the attention of the Douse. The. Petition set forth the distresses of the Petitioners, arising from the increase of paupers, which increase of pau pers they ascribed to the falling . off of trade. In Liverpool there Were 14,000 paupers,- thos.e - who paid to (the poor's rates were not tuore,than 20,000, and the whole population of the town was somewhat more than 100,000. This 'rneethig had beenregularly called : by. the ~; . 4 ,Mayor, and was -as full _attended .as ever any meeting bad been,in - Liverpool. "W",hen the Mayor had transmitted it.to him in order to be presented to the House, he had— informed hi m that of the 20,000 persdns who contributed to the rates; 7,000 paid such-small sums ; that, in fact, ' it might be sitid the whole weight of maintaining the 14,000 paupers fell on a smaller; number of persons, namely, on about 13,00 p,:: The Peti /loners verc glad that House hwt.tak,en into con -sideration the state , 6lthe I;,' 0r:.,-Lalf?, but as, yet they had- derived no benefit,,fcm their inquiries. They hoped the subjeCt:„ wouJc ;,be. again taken up., It.aepeared to the' lunch of the zonanterciat'distress of the, town *of Liverpool arose trom-: the prohibitions,and restrictions op- Posed , to 'the introduction'. of' commodities fro: 4 other countries:. This, subjeb.had alreadr beet' : bronght" befGre,the , flouse, bait : as yet.no• ade ' quate . /ernedy had been devisetLtowe4t , the ex ' isting-evil. , . -They-considered - that .11ie , , prohibL. E•iott of, the - importation of corn, .and, !the obstruc , (tons thrown in the u:- . 41 -of free tra.dc.iu co, a, formqd another,eause of' the .distres4; cop plii&l gad . they , prayea-Abe noose to. takelthat, triijcict inta'their cooMoration the. edrllet ,opkrtaiiity..; lie liad.only add i That the: Pe :Aitiotr wasiinterriiid ,to t :be pre anted at an earlier Be , te I i eti• be: might .tqlte upoq.hiiro self tcr say that it...ii4s: ,, sigtled -by ainiqt pergo/is.. • '; 7 Tito•Pptitiali wig -t*nyeadzatkci:ordeyett. to be ,pritited- , • . MATO 1)F .MR. .TiWrfinAKEP. inform& the Ikonse; that James . 'l4atsoll-3 , Clerk _of.Xlfe Vfonse,,•died on Siinday morning last ; and he-hgd , .further.to ac, liouse,:that , his Majesty would, in a appoint:: some other person as Clerk , of Ikuse.: L .• , ~;;; 1 " • bird CAs Tr. crt thgt 'it ..:Was - a duty Ovied.to the metriorf of the-in, dividual,,whose decease had just been communi cated from the Chain., to record upon their Jour- pals the high sense which they entettafnednf his meritorious services. `,vMi. T 1 MIN I:'Y- entirely concurred , . with the Noble Lorin that the. House was bound to mark its res,pect for an indiliclual who had so long and so faithfully di'sclmrged the duties of - the.situaAon which he filled in that House. * •, The SPEAKER suggested, that it woul -be ec proper mark of respect, if the Vote ,of T nks to Mr. Hatsell, 'passed by 'the House in year. 1797, were now read, so. as to form a part of this proceeding. Upon the motion of Lord CASTLEREAGH . , the Minutes,of the Vote of Thanks in the year 1797 Ivgre . then read. They stated, that the:Speaker had teen directed by the House to communicate, to Mr. Hatsell the high sense which the House entertained of the distinguished and exemplary mtnuer in which he had uniformly discharged the duties of his office. • 'THE QUEEN. Lard CASTLEREAGH moyed, that a CoMmittee -be appointed.to inspect the Journals of the House of Lords, in relation to the present state of any procee,ding had therein, respecting the Bill, inti tuled, " A n Act to deprive her Majesty, Caroline Amelia Eli zabeth, .of all the . Titles, Prerogatives, Rights, Privileges,, and Exemptions of Queen Consort of this Realm, and to dissolve the, Mar riage beiveen his „Majesty and the said. Caroline Amelia Elizabeth." • Mr. TIERNEY said, that from some -circumstan ces which had come to his knowledge: this day, it was of great importance that the proceedings of this very day, in the House of Lords, should be expressly included in the motion \ of the Noble Lord. Lord CAsTLEREIGH thought it was sufficient, inoVe generally for a Committee to inquire into, and report upon the present State of the proceedings. Mr. TIERNET said, that any question not im mediately connected with - the innocence of her Majesty, but connected with the manner in which the Proceedings had Originated, was a fit sub ject for the consideration of that nonse. lie should move, that •it be an Instruction_: to the Committee to include the Proceedings of their Lordships on this day. The 'notion, so amended, was put. and agreed to. Mr. Brogden, .S. Bourne, Mr. Huskis son, and the lion. C. Long, were of the Com mittee. PETITION FROM PLYMOUTH. Lord J. RUSSELL rose to present a Petition signed by 2,040 ofthe people of Plymouth, againgt the Bill of Pains and Penalties. He had been requested to support the prayer,of it, and had no hesitation in saying, that i,f,ever that. Bill should come . down to the House of Commons, whiCh he sincerely hoped it would not, he should always be ready to oppose—itin every stage... He must,. indeed, be permitted to say, that the result of the evidence was not such as, in his opinion, to render itmecessary for the Queen to continue her defence. With respect to the people of this country, they appeared to be of the same mind with himself; ,and in this point of view, looking at expediency alone, he could not see 'die utility of pressing a mea sure ‘ , lncli professed to have for its 'object the .preservation of the public morals against the s force of a bad example. The people were of - . opinion that the charge of,setting a had example WaSnot , proved against the Queen... The people disbe lieved it, and therefore theidea, of-passing the .Bill to prevent a bad . example Wasidle b and a surd. _ The Neble Lord concluded by tnosiing that .the Petition should be, read... It was read accordingly, ; and on the Speaker putting the question. that it should lie on the table, . . . Mr. LOCKHART fully . agreed ,with the Peti tioners, that this ,proceeding was a violation pf ~the Constitution, and a: breach of the Laws, es pecially of the Law of Edward, as, re,garded trea son.. This Bill was i brought In for the purpose of imposing Pains and .Penalties on her Majesty, for an act. ivhich it was said would have been high treason, had the ,act charged been commit ted in this. country ; -but, being, done in foreign parts, was not treason by our Jaw ; yet . in .this Bill, so charging her Majesty, not :a word was said of, the crime having: been.comnaitted in fo reign parts. For, although. the preamble of the Bill charged. her Majesty •with having carried on . an adulterous iptercourse with Bergami in divers countries, and kingdoms, yet it did not state that any of these countries were, out of his Maje'sty's dominion,,; atherefr,re on..the,face of the 13111 the' crime charged was high treason, and it ought not to have. been flitted away into a Bill of Pains and Penalties for high crimes and misdemeanours. The . proceedings, he contended, ought to have been by iloPcachrnent.7_ife was told that this ought not to be, because it.Was.llonbtful ivhetbekit,waShigh trea son or not.; but this . , inhis. opieititi,was the strongest reason. why the . House ought.inot 0. take cogni zance of it. ina Bill. of Pains and. Penalties: But he would .ask, what were, the authorities upon which this doubt wns .founded 2 The first authority Was‘ . that,of.LordsCok.e, who 'iced the cases . of Queen Catherine anti Anne .1301eyn ; and did that upon a .report•pta person named Spelman, which revert, he 4Mr..Lo.cliltart), had in vain searched for and could not Rind ;.phut he had found Acts of Parlia mcut, and upon : those ,Acts he denied that the , charges,against either Anne• Boleyn or Catherine Wfi.P:those. of adultery ; and therefore these- cases were. noauthoyities„ Yet it was.upon them that ,Lord Coke gave,bisApinipu, that the Queen *(On -Sort being guilty,,of adultery,. came within the Statute of 'rreasons. lie contencled,hoWever, that thelpoint was ve..ry :doubtful. .1f treason. had been comPlitted h,er,Majesty, then no-,13111 of Pains 411 d.Penalties should have been referred ; and if, it was doubtful, the, Judges : wekt not au- . therizesl .to expound. the doubt, but f by the Statute . .,such„ i doubt should come before the the King and .Judges, ~ 1g s ,a ,.P i arliarnent to be expounded; entertained such dotihts,, are to tarry, andmot.proc.:eed to judgment ; and Such, ought. to 'be. the ease now. The judges shonld and ! tho case should hate COMP be fore the King and Parliament,- by way of lin peachment, The law would not permit eNecution to be changed in any case. If a statute should provide the punishment of burning to death for any crime, acid a„.Judge, otKof,feelings of mercy, should change the punishment to beheading, such a Judge woUld be, guilty of ifittrder. So in the present case ; her Majes ty had\ been guilty o high'treason, it vianot in the power of anyvn to ; mitigate tti and 'out of mercy proceed by 'a Bill of Pains and Penalties, but they must proceed by impeachment, and to proceed in any other way would be to shake the law of the land to its base.• lie trusted the House would now so express its opinion of this proceeding as to put an end to it altogether. The Petition was then ordered to lie on the Table. • Lord J. RUSSELL then presented a similar Pe tition from some other place, but it was read in so low a tone that we could not collect from whence it came. A new writ was .ordered for the County of Warwick,tix the room of Sir Charles Mordaunt, who has accepted the Chiltern Hundreds. Mr. HUME presented a Petition from Aberdeen against the Bill of Pains and Penalties.—Ordered to lie on the Table. SEDITIOUS PLACARDS.-SIR ROBERT BAKER.' Mr. HUME rose to call the attention of the House to a case which to him and to many others appeared to be of very considerable importance, involving, as he thought it-did, efforts to •disturb the peace of the countr,y, of a nature altogether unexampled. The first thing which' he should propose to do, was to call Sir Robert Baker to the bar, in order'that he might be questioned on the subject of his Conduct on a late occasion with respect to the liberation of a person arrested for issuing treasonable hand-bills. , This business had been' carried- on in a manner that would hardly be credited by' those who had not prop cuted the inquiry as he had done. At present they could only prove that there had been a re gular manufactory established for the production of seditious and treasonable placards, from the be ginning of 1818 down 'to the present period, which had been. traced to an individual who had been known by the names of Fletcher, Forbes, .and Franklin. The name under which he had last-been known was W. Franklin. As W. Franklin he had been apprehended for issuing certain inflammatory papers; and in considering this subject, it was of, very great consequence to remember the lin portance which the Noble Lord opposite had at tached to some of these Bills when he produced them to the House. Every one would remember the stress which he bad laid on the character of tliese placards, which had been distributed all over the country, in order to excite the people to. violence. i' -Up to the last meeting but one of that House, the Noble Lord had continued to com plain of these, and he (Mr. Hume) who had-heard the" way in which these papers had been coin, plained of, could not but regard the present dis covery as one of the greatest importance. In the prosecution of the plan which had been acted upon, it appeared to him probable that, he would not say hundreds, but that many lives had been sacrificed. On the Ist of April; 10.0, a placard 'had been issued at Paisley and GlasgOw of an in flamtnatorY description, but, of a chardeter nothing like so violent as those which had lately been dis- . covered to haveibeen sent into circulation by the person-he hail ialeneioned. In them, (the placards issued at Paisley and Glasgow,) it was proposed to the manufacturers and the artisans to shut uptheir manufactories, and to abstain from work till Parliamentary Reform should be obtained. The Reform they were to obtaih quietly if they could, but at all 'events they were to obtain extremely well known what was likely to ?esult from' this. -'One of the Magistrates in the neigh 'bourhoOd had very properly offered a reward: of 3001. for the disCoverrof the author of these4.'pla cards ; 'and_Government, on the Bth of 112pril, had offered '5OOl. more, with a pardon to any one concerned in circulating them, with the excep tion of the autlibr. On the Bth of April no fewer than-twenty persons were taken from their beds and confined in prison, in the neighbour hood where these placards made their appear ance. ..It was not before the Friday following that any inquiry took place as to the.cause why some of the parties were imprisoned'. One re spectable person, it ultimately appeared; had in this- Manner been deprived of his liberty, al though no scrap . of paper had appeared to con. nect him with the circulation of the hand-bills, and in fact the 'only ground of suspicion against him, was this, that he was known to be a friend to 'Rational Reform. The placards in question had led to the riots which took, place at Boutiymuir, 'and to the scenes Which were known to foive followed. He then went on to describe the re cent' *proceedings at Bow.;street. Mr. C. Pear son, he thought,;had, much to his honour, placed himself in a situation in which feW Members of that House Would have. been willing to - place them Selves. lie was brought to take the part he did take froth the circumstance of his being the Secretary to the Queen's Plate COmmittee. Tliat he was placed in this situation was ,Owing to the course Ministers had thought proper to tak/e, with reSpect to the Queeti,,' and it 'therefore Ji - Ppeared to him (Mr. Hume) 'a judgment, on them, thus growing out of their injustice towards her Ma jesty. To (his it was owing that. Mr. Pearson had beep tie means of detecting a practice which he (Mr. Hume) : was prepared to say, had long been carried on with-- the . knowledge and ap probation .of the Government. He should not feel warranted in bringihg this subject. for if - he -was not authorised to state so Jt was not ealey to offer 'direct proofs of such conduct, but, as far as an affidavit. would go, he was prepared ; for lie had come down to the !Hotse to p - refer such a charge on his Own; simile opinion. `'He had not rested satisfied. with hisown information, though he had anxiously, inquireCiato..the Meets of .the case himself, but' he had 'nevertheless not been content till he had more thati,one,' or two,'Or'three,.. or five indivi duals to speak to. fact§ connected with the pro ceedings to which lie was ,tlesirous to direct - the attention of the house.' fle lad obtained the first imprint of some lof the bills; he had found br the compositor who printed there, an d - ci be had his affidavit as to what had P asse a tween him and Franklin ; and he ha , a 11, found the bill-sticker, who, accornpan` e ga p Franklin, had posted seditious and ioptei matory Placards which ha been i . he trikiidle'ot-the hadAbeea. u I He would read shortly the affidavit of ter. who spoke to his :having been emplol e : d di ', paid by Franklin-L-by that 'Franklin, 01°7 aft' 'being irresteachad been so strangely iih e i r t i l , by Sir R. :- Biker*. - It was to be reinariouir, 'Franklin had been arrested b a w arrant one Magistrate—had been brought to a r°11; Office, and was,there discharged by another • gistrate. That Magistrate, he believed, haLd charged him even without seeing him, and taal . a Senday,.which was a most unusual C.:remits° ' 5 tle could prove from Mr. Vickery (though he d is ii not here .at preSeno that Franklin had been ti charged from his custody by the .Magistil Sir R. ,Baker,without his seeing him. Whatn, ; b . a peculiar feature to this case was .that Oh' was. about to state. Franklin had been lot charged at seven o'clock in the 'Morning, air e big been arrested at five o'clock o n the r„ ceding' day; though a . note had been sent teic Magistrate representing this to .be a casein ll'ich .it might not be proper to admit bail, but ill"' ,h 1 bail were at all accepted, two individuals pa,rieti to be required to be bound in 5001. each. 11 1 ,0 it was known that fifteen inflammatory hali d had, been foynd about this individual, it `" ra te be be seen that it: was right to give the Mag t- ' l '*jt the warning of which he had just spol'.. en ",il4 , might seem surprising that the Magistrate se et , the importance of the charge had failed tf m tl mand bail, but it appeared that Frank-1i) be said, " Q ! I am known to Mr. Williams, a° air will answer for my appearance." He "'a s N ate charged by Sir R. Baker without any bad W oe ever, and Whether or not; he had fled to ani i i conntry,, was not at present known. Aa I %le dual was known to have left the country 11- t ht the name of Franklin, but whether- this ' ri ff individual in. question, or Whether - fit was ° ° ; o ' blind to favour his escape, remained to he s ' - iu ' but probably a few days would bring sofa', !Tormation on the subject. The. conduct of S' r ro ' Baker had been unusual. He (Mr. Hume) i ld also remark, that he had told a deliberate la p hood in his hearing. He (Sir R.. Baker) said that be had sufficient bail for the, ar?':e,! once of Franklin, though it afterwards out that he had no bail at all. .When Fraljoi‘ was first missed, he (Mr. Hume) heard Mr, : *. i .ll die say, " do not think he will a m Baker then said he had sufficient that a Mr. Williams had pledged' hiinse° his appearance. This Mr. Williams in M o e quel , denied, and on further inquiry i t t out, that 'Franklin had written a lettfri le his daughter, telling her' that he sho giu t, a hundred miles from• town that ilig b it e The . Gentleinenwho had interested diet - 1 0 , i ' el e in this business went to the Hoiee Office, Ir t e they saw Mr. Clive, and found that 'he had he viously been acquainted with 'ajl..the.facts• t he Home Office being thus acquainted sl*it h ,, i o , facts, his :notion Nvculd be, that Sir R:-Baker sN be ordered to appear at the Bar, that' he : jIL eo .be asked if any,atid. 1% instnictiOns hao - of giVen te . him on the_ subject,_'. from,, flora e 01 lice. He then described the recent• visit t ° A ft: Heine Office, :and the application made, t° Clive and Lord, Sichneuth. to interfere t° e vent 'the escape of. Franklin:..: had a 1.6' c f the 'placards with, him to' - chew the natarer the transaction, and to show the charactehyt the recent proCeedings, he would refer to '' o ve had been doo. - in ether cases. : DUring of Portland's Administration, in 1796, a of . one httodred guineas had:been offered t ° oo o' cover the parties who had.'pOst(l 4 . an to fps' matory placard on the Town Hhuge at P, O Without following the . G .Dvernille St thr il t o all their proclamations and rewards fret° t he time downwards, he would • next refer °oft reward of bOOl. offered on the iftl: of April" 1 lor,the detectiOn of those who hall circulat e ; le treasonable:placards at' Glasgow r 3 ).'d with a pardon to' any. one : concerned..in i•O wli f el 4 l but the auther,' Tinigd'placards, however, 'tetlf nothing like equal to thOse :re.cently circu l tete in Violent and inflammatory language, Th e . 0 1 0 elemen who waited on Mr:Clive 'Wished 1 „, 11 offer a reward, knowing how necessaty thrs tr ot to put the officers on the alert, but this 01100 j done. The Government, or their agent sl ,lol to leave every thing to that. public-spirite° too w gistrate Who as to do everythin47, but wh''icheo previously done nothing.. The. - GOverunie ld pel applied to, if possible, dia.less than the 001 strate, and under :Such circumstances' the would see in what .a situation the coulal r ' a s beep -placed. • Ile would .-say that i! extremely improbable that any 1- 0(11 4.; a. should circulate these seditious hand-hit do' bis own expencei: . He would prove that Franklin had.. no visible means of ence, yet. he had lived as a Gentleman , °- f oven ditied'AVith some of the Ali n i s ters ° : 0 11 1 ' Groin. He WOuld. further. show from an e, davit which he had,.. that Franklin ha t i l orc' e traced in a hackney-coach from IlowlOtcoitol:5 /i to Charing Cross, :and thence by a ci , e r ed route, to a large house in Downing-str i tr ac A sentinel befOre it. :He had . tben7he ell, pri el” back to the hoese of :Mr.' Dennis 001,t wher ,had-been before, ind though 0 Itt e dividnal had denied all knowledf,re, of 11 0 0 01 0. 1 ‘,,, Franklin, Perhaps they might vet be a ble L oo p I' him perfectly well a th r : P ; it e de e s : question - as Mr. Fletcher. :finder a" I va t o t o cumstanees be thought there. Was . grea.Lgi o ,tl suspicion,against the Goveriuneilt• to Pr h e or three bill-stickers to bring - the part ; that :Franklin had acted, and 13 ,, a o f I ta , eAffidavit :of:the printer. The allicift"`, o f • # ce . . . nter stated that at the latter e ntx 0 0 .4 * * peaq at II ! n u 1,51.8., person 0 f ... , t 11 d 00' t t co . Ord :kn.:liters of a gentleman Cake; and'indni - red irhe' 'Would Pri° lootor hand-bills. Finding them of an OP; bats Sho t 'est for Lou Par slot Witt tiAk Lu t opi Rsi c to 1 tilt t h f c.oh 11 1 ; too 4 tt, ' Riv , 4 1)e, I . a "II l e i s . 1] I 'lil ' `o