The Sun. — London, England, 1815-02-28 00:00:00

1 • . , . . . . • . • . for ... •. , , • . . 'ralti:ti be 72 5. 765. or S. Ire Was at first 291,98.5; Matting a difference. 61 nine hus,and. e rfor the loss price ; but a low price 'had al- In the manufacturing county of for.,, rather titrays,4 in his Mind, been coupled with the notion the whole of Yorkshire, in /690, the "'O'er of plat grallitated scale of 'tribes, and lie had thought inhabitants was 605 ,2C9 . Whot is it now'? not ti: ` e if 7fis. tvere takerras the first price for Obeni ug l ess than 978,559, making a difference of consi the PortS, then it might he (carried up to 80S., or till derahly more than j 73,000.. Now, let us see h a _Ptice at which 'corn Might be imported flee ; • where this increase has princiPally taken place, • - se ,',"dteti it was resolved to fix a price, without a ' and we shall find it.to he ill the*West Riding, the av d 'e of advance, then he was for 80s. For as the , seat of the manufactures, which • now contains 'lO not are tulinitted to be iucorrect, and as they ; more than the populatioil of die whole county at 4 . 1 .?? t give a fair•advantage to the farmer, he had •' the period first mentioned. It was absurd to sop lo 'g' l t to expect the highe r price rather than the : pose that the millers would not buy Cairn when vii ' ‘ ' .. er : 0 . 11 the 'whole, he . was never more con- : they wanted it. But it appeared to him, that the , ice I of any.thing in his life than that this Inca- : best practice would be to establish • a gradually ~s ' re 11.• as unitecesSary; and he thought that its • diminishing outy, instead of making it now what tniell...(!o.ption; wo u ld not fail to restore ihat confidence it is contemplatcd it may become hereafter r: the l wits rimy hist ainongst our terrieulturists.— ' effect of this would be to indtice farmers to take . '' n ever could raise the price of bread ; but its long leases, and' things would then Come to their ' e frect ~ tvh w -tdd be to giv e u s a supply at home, and natural condition, by- approximating to natural b_ . e l " a tim e Of scarcity might happen we should ; agriculture and free trade. On the whole, it did ' 1: b le to '. , et a supply n from abroad. On these ' not appear to him that any injury could be u . i t t° "ilds he should vote fur the reception of the tained by any class of people by the adoption of spor t. a diminishing scale of duty. °f the PHILLIPs thought some of the arguments Mr. .3,ANKgs entirely agreed with the general i h 'ne Hight Hon. Gentleman ill support of the : propositions: that bad been laid down on both -aea s -.., ,--- i ocr me extremely singular. , Because the factious, sides, that 'the interests of commerce and mann fut"agognes of Rome took advantage of the ,cry factures were so closely connected with those of che ap bread, till they raised a clamour that agriculture, that the one conic! not be depressed, got i t th the) , ran for nothing, but which caused them m ithout injaring the other : and that the enemies l c'ss of their liberties, we are, therefore, to of either were substantially the enemies of both. to '' hill to augment the price of Corn in order ' He conceived, however, that the circumstances in . ail seenre our lifferties—(llear, hear !) -- "This ; which the comitry had been so long placed, had ,ee'nentation not only will be, but already is, the ; brought on such a state of things, that it was int voieet of •the ineasure—(No, no, fro• 0 several • possible now to avoid doing something to (m -illi, -es.)---It was 'very extraordinary that now the : courage the cultivation of the country. He hullUrtation of Corn could be carried on without had but few - Gentlemen to contend with radi tverraption, We were called on to fix a price on catty upon that principle. It seemed to be 'mini (3..e commodity. But • the Right Honourable yersally confessed, that it was essentially neces -4:ootleinan thinks, that do what we will 'France saryi o do something. The Hon. Gentleman s•lio e tre Holland will rival us in our manufac- spoke last, as well as another Hon. Gentleman .. , N e es ' What, then, is the inference ?•• That (Mr. Baring), were. both agreed that something Zeicennist take artificial means to raise the , ought to be done for the protection of the farmer i ii ri .. o f bread, in order to assist foreign countries but what they proposed for his be was it Le‘alling us in our manufactures. How could ' something that every year was to be less of a pro -I,l4tdiasirmated that we should be ruined by im- ' tection, and was finally to vanish away altoge tea;!,ions; when in the same breath it is admit- i ther. The object of the present measure was cer littie‘tnat the importations from France amount to tainly to giYe confidence to those who otherwise p aid ' ?I' nothing ?' Besides, would she not he re- would not have it. As our legislation was in al- • eount'rti equivalents ? If we are an importing most every thing else of a permanent natore, he to" tr Y , We must necessarily b e a n exporting% could not sec why in this instance only it should , v• Now c thnit r ' .. ~ we could not b e an exporting b e of a temporary nature. As to the book which hiui tbTlyttliout having an accession of wealth, had been so highly praised by the Hon. Gent. who il iwe. IS I s the best security the landholders can spoke, last, and of which he had read an extract, he vt.i.iii ° f 11 ' e Hon. Gentlentan then alluded to se, bad certainly not read that book ; but if the re tioilten:ltnis former M•guments on the subject, and mainder was like what had been read to the House prlvere; us ' 6 ' that .it - the manufactures of . France ( a laugh) lie really did nut think it would have o cure yod and as cheap as those - they could much effect in changing the opinion of any Gentle -44 tao re Q , se where, the consequence tyould he, t hat man. Was it to be supposed that Providence had taut_rici!abour is employed in manufactures than ,intended to regulate the trade in Corn among na hteiture in that country, our manufactures . tions, more than ally other species of commerce amid i ll tx __ at keted in a much greater proportion, That argument would go the length of saying that faet tnes. et , they may impede wir export of ilium- 1 all things ought to he left in a state of natere, anti 'Nu, tl a p t i ° g e iber. The Right Hon. Gentle kr 'e -.oa o , - - that legislative interference went t o overturti the offlev,d ~, , aceoo r of the Exchequer, must have : regulations of Prov,idence. It might appear very ~ ..a t , „„,, . the L ice - ‘suen he comes forward and takes L philosophical to recommend the freedom of trade on w:,,t_a!r .matnrtuilkete'ti:l a r x — , but says he will impose taxes , i n all circumstances, but this perfect' freedom Of with appl ause Lb, and his intention is received • trade could never ha extended upon such a sub arnlounee,. hi * But als the very moment when he ject, to a country that was so much of an artifi ttleome r i lx . 0 s i ntention of laying a. permanent ; (fiat country as this, and when this unlimited free at thatv,„, 11 ev ery manUfacture in this country, ; dole of - unrestricted trade could not exist with re sider boll/ Hutment the House is called on to con- spect to other things. If the people that were grain . r , t ° cause a permanent high price of n o w employed i n agricultur e could he wit.hdrawu in pral,ftesPecting the state of the manufacturea . from the country, and cooped up in towns,. to hiationl'e, he had obtained a vast deal . of . infor- follow manufactures, he believed that the change sei,,, l ;_ , He had conversed with a Gestleman '; would be by no means desirable. We should cotitt_'au returned within these few clays from that have no longer that brave and hardy peasantry rovie`st.Y,'..and who had.seen most of its cotton fat- which was the boast of this country— seer lie was decidedly of opinion, that they Gens patient ortrutn, studasgae asperinal Belli. Oi l r )t oilly in general equal to our own, but that ' ' Instead of having a peaceable •easy governed so-. h r e W hole they were better : the reason was, ~, t uost of them had been recently established, ciety, they would place the population „of the th is that the recent mechanism of those of country in a stare that the peace of the cominum . ty would depend upon their being constantly kept in Ivi iii "wry had been introduced into them, h all the mechaniSm of our - old establishments employment. How seltiom was any combin,..tioi s or terment heard of in the country from the stop tauteen onlitted ; therefore they had the full ad 14,,..fe.Possessed by ours. If, then, encourage- page of agricuynral labour.? but li f ow&f:r . eque ‘ nt o l s y crea u si s given to French manufactures, by our in- and how reeentty (not more than a c . w-)t i als i f ag ) e itt '4 l ; the price of grain, and laying a Tax on • had the - peace of the country been distm• )e( •t tu th_. Mannfacturers at home, he would only. say - tliiilitt this maunfacturers being out of employment? The is the at of folly. He was Hon. Gentleman had said, that the cotton ma chinery in France was equal to that of this coun t' astonished that any Gentleman. could sup -1,,,t' t hat a country like this conic/ be starved', if , try. If such were the case, it was quite evident tult 'npplied with all its Corn from its own. agri- that our cottons could not be received in France, however this question might be determined. As for lindure• Our riches arose front our commerce; sarueall rich commies owed their wealth to the the prices of every thing falling in the same pro portion that Corn fell in price, .it was well known, ti t , ~.s et tree; how else hays it happened, that all tiai co st comm. .telie t it whatever !twilit be the ultimate effect, prices les in the world were comm.- t- " ' • ' • ho t . „ ntries ? . But without a. continuance of did nor fall very rapidly. They certainly did . not fall so.rapidly, as toaustily the House hi leaving a •great l't• ibtreat commercial preponderance how could !h eti 1 fa!are support our navy, or procure our sea- portion of the population of the country str . ug- Ong with every kind of distress, until the places if . we We were told on another occasion, that haul so fallen. We knew that there were . many kti I w ere to reIV On foreign countries for our pp v. ~ 4' • ' 4 4 m e no . • - • , I, Port . .1, time Navy of .Engiand could not. th . ings that could not fall. Whatever nught be said about the depreciation of our currency, or its ttlilettletulatl'o then, i ?o n i ot l o G c odt (saic i l 'the lionourale chance Of being restored to its original value, still t le very red . ison , why , _ tli t ritish farmer clues not want protection e In it was evident that the interest of the National 4 Yet)? nat ure . - ci l ,. , of things .he is protected. . The . . . Debt must be paid in pounds sterling. ‘Vhether 1'00,,, i'entleman then read an extract from a •, prices were high m low all those Taxes which were o . "'Net b ' doii„ y Mr. Torrens, in support of his own necessary to pay the interest of the Debt . . must - be 4tj i. t -- tis, and observed, that as the Hon. Member paid in pounds sterling. It was, therefore, evi-. tli , l asg ' a t ~_‘v had had the candour to acknowledge dent that all other things could not fall in thesame al it a inad changed his opinion, be was not with 7. proportion twit col n might fall. Could any body sop f'it , uotilii7ethat.afte.l. he had read this pamphlet Pose tharthelargeand ex tensive classconnectedwith traii..h,'. feel inclined to change it again.— airrictiltiire, beginning with the day-labourer, and 1. , • g te0......i n . C tea v i,, short, it would be found, that F b ndiiia- with the landholder, could all be seriously. ,'ti t , "g of commerce and ah••• It b licu tire to crake "qui i' va Y a ccord' A ft hb e , nig to the natural order of things, consequences ? He knew already that in many small towns the tradesmen had suffered severely t ord e 1 t ile best protection that could be . , Iron, - the depression of agriculture; and he be i.v44 eot(routo best The duties imposed by us, rtt, would be another most material ad- li•eved that this would soon be i fel i t . in that large Y . e to fire towns and ci ties. He did not re 'eve Great i, th i . le French manufacturer. We • i ll ' , foreieenPe,nce per lb. on cotton imported . Britain alone could, by its agriculture, support 0(14 ,' 1 - "iPs, and one penny per lb. on that its population; but was it possible-not to prefer th r 'ttit e l :' ‘ i i ti our own. This is one reason why ['ranee supplied from Ireland, to being supplied from übtii,litpotyno., imposes noduty at . all, will become and Flanders? There the price of labour , was cheaper than it was here ; and he believed I lit cotton from which we shall be 11 R4i t t4 ' to • • •i in 1 • . with proper encouragement-, they could raise suf ;al w i, Wit port it into this country. And ficient Corn at a moderately cheap rate, to meet any ‘ 44. e NI .('respect•to grain, while we are d0 a ii2,.... ri taa , c t . r. _`° Prevent ourselves front deriving deficiency ill the produce of Great Britain. 'She, that was so goou a customer to us, had a right f t : cotiteluiy. i mportations, we arc at the same to demand that preference. She had a right to 1-l u etir „ Iv , "mg, that if we do not grow enough l i . 4. D ept 4 stlbsistenee, we shall be starved. The demand it also froth her connection with tis f as t i t '4l beerie„p 11, 4 t lt i an then proceeded' to skew what sister kingdom. The Hon. Member here. re ere( l i , ti cif', 'e tffeet of agriculture, contrasted with .to the case‘ of Norway, t i c, i which . an Hon. Geo % ° limi er ' • c l . e. •i t et. anu manufactures on our poptt- tlenian (Mr. Baring) 'hat at %erred as all !exampie - of a , trustithr entirely to importation, and 5 'l%(ii4d, ,i,ht,i:e-.lriantifacturing counties it had in- country asked, whether the recent situation of that coon tiallill)!ed, il t :e ,. :ll the :agricultural 'districts it hat! , , ry ~ when , threatened by invasion, and contending I t of • 'N orfo I k , for instance, in 1690 the , ` . against a supenor force, did not furnish a sta . 1"1-tabitants was 282,595',. it was noW dent illustration of the misery and danger of such a dependence. 1111.. Pinwas explained. Mr. MAttnYAT WaS lint less SOnCifOIIS than any Member of the House to secure the British agri culturist from any unfair disodvaiitage arising from foreign competition. The, whole question was one - of degree ; but he could not avoid feeling some surprise when he heard it gravely stated, that the present measure was not intended to in fluence the price of Corn. 'lO -hint it 'appeared tantamount to an opinion that SO shillings was not more than G3s. The Hon. Gentleman who had just sat (low!), and who had honoured hard to excite all their Anti-gallican feeling-s, had seemed to forget, what every Member who had joined in this discussion ought to know, that• in France the single tax of the contribtition fonciere was alone eque,l to the full amount of thost. taxes stated to be so'oOpressive in the landed interest. It had formerly been a fifth, but the last centime had raised. it to a fourth, or, as it had been estimated, nearly one-third. The French Minister of Finance had, in his expose for the year 1814, whilst he lamented the dismemberment of forty-t ments of the empire, calculated the remaining pro. duce to be 273 millions of francs. in Hon. Gen tleman (Mr. Whitbread) had, on a former even ing, asked him for a return of his commercial prolik—a request, he thought, a little extraor dinary,r,asTroceeding, from one who had so often reprobated the inquisitorial spirit of the Pro perty Tax—(A laugh.) For his own part, he believed, that ,it the profits of the lion. Gentle man's bretk.ery could be disclosed without impro priety, the public would be satisfied, that, hokt - 7... ever anxious the Hon. Member had been for their interests, he had not been quite negligent of his own. He wished to remind thellouse that not many years had eloped since the 'French fevolu tionary policy was formed upon principles similar • to some of those by which the present measure was defended, and that the effects of that policy had been to drive manufacturers out of - France, and in a short time so to injure the land proprie tors themselves, as to reduce the value of land from 25 and 30 to 5 or 6 years' purchase. He ad- • nutted that Sotae protection was necessary, and that a certain boundary was to be established : but he was decidedly of opinion that the proposed measure overleaped that boundary. Mr. Davis Ginray declared his.belief to be, not not that the effeet of the measure before the House would be to render Corn cheaper than at present, but to prevent it ever becoming inordi nately dear. If any unpopularity attended an opi nion of this kind, he was ready to meet it. Mr. IlmttxG thought, that whaever supposed the present question was one front ‘tildeli popu larity might be gathered,. would tiod it very short lived, even if it should be attained ? Every gen tleman had disclaimed all insinuation about mo tives,. acid vet motives had been pretty liberally imputed on both sides. For his own part, he had the highest opinion of the landed interest ; he looked upon their predominance in Parliament as a general advantage : lie considered . the liberties of the country as most safely pl ace d i n their bands. He believ e d that .in the lore!,. run it would be found they were the' class which acted with the greatest independence. : The present question, however, as it affected merely the rent and pro duce of laud, was to them a questioo More nar row in its nature, and with respect to Which they might naturally be supposed to act wider a bias. It was somewhat remark:l6lC that he had not heard during the whole of the night, when the question was, of bringiug up the report of the resolution, affirming :80s. to he the ininiaoth at which foreign corn should be imported, one word toshew that 80s. Was the proper price, or the lowest price that could hay the expenses, anti remunerate the tibours of the farmer. The manufireturers had been pretty ronghly handled; they been, treated as the SCIIIII of the earth—(Cries of no, no) ; but no reasoning had been ()tiered to convince hini that 80 shillings was the'fit and necessary sum. How this point had been overlooked,, he could only ac count for by supposing that the measure itself teas utterly indefensible ; mid hat as it could not be.carried by force of argument, it must he carried by clamour and by numbers—(ReneWed cries of no, no). He had himself no interest it; the issue' of this question beyond dint of any other !rerun) ; he was not engaged 'in the trade of corn; and ne ver had been.' What he observed was, the result of his own free and deliberate judgment. The report of the Committee, partial as it wag, did not justify . the present measure ; it did . not even corre spond with the evidence on which it pretended to be founded. The Committee wanted protec, lion against present rents acid present charges, but had forgotten to report accurately what their own witnesses had told them. Instead of its be ing true, as they stated, that only one person had thought a lower' price than 80s. sufficient, one witness conceived 72 itialine of peace, and five others 76 up to 80, as a . full compeosation to the farmer. He should tart refer, to the wild opi nion that rent. did not at all enter into the price of Corn ; but he wished to tdiserve, in conse quence of what had been said of the stimulus Oc rived to the farmer by his paying a. high Vela, that the saint:shwa/ars to an exerti o n Of his powers tvould be found in his experience of a declining pro . - duce. At all events, he Was quite satisfied that our modern improveMents in Ogrieulture had not tended to augment our agricultural population, If mea sures of the kind of that now 'before them were to be resorted to, and artificial Means adopted to lieep up the prices, it: would be..vain to expect to see our money 'circulation return to its natuii al. state, and they must make up their minds to hack. notes anti Bank tokens for die future. Here the Hon. Member entered into a calculation to slim th,;l the whole quantity of cultivated land in Great Britain and Ireland was (33 millions of acria3, and. that a bounty of 10s. to the landlord, in the shape of a'tax on the rest of 'the community, •already established by law,' would afford the Test& of which was annually paid, nearly 32 millions ster ling, as stated by hint on a former evening, The Hon. Meniber concluded,' amidst considerable marks of impatience for the question on the part of the Ilotise. Mr. FITZGERALD said, that it was not alone be cause he felt most earnestly on this suttjeet that he desired to oiler himself to the Houje j but be cause, exhausted as the House might be, and es.- bausted as the subject too was, he vet could no stiffer the language of the Hon. Gentleman to pass wit hour animadversion. (Hear, hear!)—The Holt; Gentleman had said, that he rpiestiond a it the motives of others, yet the -whole of I.is spr-een . was made op or the most unManly iosinoa tioos. lie would not condescend to repel them, The ..Hon. Gentleman had stated his at gtonamt as applicable to our ioanufactures, and he • bad in, stanced that of Cotton ; and the whole question_ of their competition iu foreign markets with manufacture of France, for instance, was a ques tion' of price. He should haye told the House that it was a question of prohibitiKr. Your Cot ton manufactores were prohibited in France without reference to any thing- but their being; British.— . Thq were prohibit e d in France, iu A ustria. ' and in other. States. The H 011: Gentleman will assert, . perhaps that they may still find their way into foreign markets where they will have to meet the manufacture of France; but he could inform the Hon, Gentleman that they did not only find their way into these markets, hut at this very moment large quantities had been en . rried into France ; certainly not under circumstances which could add either to the facility or the cheap.; ► ness of their entry there—since the prohibi tion remained in force, and they couhl tint ex pect it to be abandoned by the French. He doubted not that the Honourable Gentleman was not unapprised of the circumstances he alluded to. He would assure hint of the filet ; and it was suffi cient to prove that it was not a question of mere price., . The Honourable Gentleman had smiled at his mention Of Spain. s But . th e H ouse \yr:mid recollect, th at i n that. was included the supply of the South American Provinces, which were yet dependent on the Spanish - Monarchy.— The monopoly of cotton 'was secured to. the Phi lippine Company; and thOugh some relaxation in other Parts of the commercial policy of Spain had been given, or hoped for, still 'in this article of cotton the system was rigidly acted on and avow- , ed to be for the purpose of protecting- the cotton manufactures of Catalonia. But the first fact he alluded, to would be sufficient. He Could not have apprehended the rivalry of these States. He too, as ; well as an _Honourable Gentleman who had preceded hint, confided in the skill, in the in dustry, in the capital above all employed in Bri tish manufactures—in the internal advantages (if our country, .our cheapness of fuel, the advan tages of our inland naeigation, and more than these, in the spirit of enterpri2e Which had created for us these markets, and which he trusted would be beneficially employed. Still the Hon.•Gentlemai t says, that if we perpetuate the artificial system of the country, there is an end to oor hope of a returning circulation in specie. —Why fir , said the 'light Hou. Gentle man, the dir'ect contrary. as far as the effect of these resolutions will be the result . wkich we have a right to look ,firr. - When did our foreign ex- '- changes become . most adverse ? When we were compelled to send out our gold as an equivalent for the supply of foreign sustenance. , —Mdch of it was merely owing to 'that ; all of it in the year ISOI might be ascribed to that datie.; and it is . • not a little remarkable, that it has begun to droop . as the foreign coin has be.g an to collie in in the last four or eight months, and as you have ceas ed to look to these countries for your support. But the Honourable Gentleman cpmtinues to assert, that we have fixed- a price which can never be below eighty shillings. In reply, we may remind him that -iii Ireland, now an ex porting country, a country of which _the popula tion, though aviculturpl, has increased iu an un exampled degree in Ireland, which thirty years ago received her food from you, when the pro tecting price was about 38s. the barrel, a price correspondent with that of 635. per quarter ; the average price has been for the last six weeks 265. that is, at the rate of 20s. and far below 635. per quarter your protecting price. And as if to refute the Hon. Gent, even when he allowed it, the price since the ports:have been entirely Shut, although he will admit beyond our , protecting price, the fall has already been 3 or 4s. a quarter. I shall absain, Sir, from arguing this as au Irish (ltiestion. It is unnecessary so to argue it; it would be ungrateful to do so. Not a man has spoken who has not recognised our right to pro- • tection, and I hail the liberality which has, I may say, pervaded the House of Commons since these discussions have begun, as holding out a prospect of much more than these regulations can give, of a re-organized community, of which„ as a pledge of the sincere wish of representatives of Great Britain and Ireland for the concurrent prospe rity of both. I will not recur, said the Hon. Gentleman, to the periods of national jealousy, look forward to the days of prosperity, which are yet to come. I regard this measure as one Which gives the best pledge of it; as one which stews that you forget tot that country which has ,con tributed to the,support of the empire, to its de fence, and to its glory. Sir FLOW) said, he did not expect to have hoard it stated, as it was . by' an Hon. Member, • that no arguments had been used in favour of bringing ap the Report. The most powerful of . 'all arguments was, the majority of 209 to 65 in favour of the .Resolutions.—e Ade. nied that he was partial or interested oft this goes-, Lion, for. he had not a rood of land in Britain, and only a, very moderate property itt Ireland. He had that day received seven letters front respect able agriculturists in Ireland,' all of them stating, s that from despair they would stop the plotigh and • the harrow unless they were . !note( ted; The lion. Baronet then complained that he had been mistaken an'd roisreprestoted by an Hon. Gentle- Man the other night, and • hoped the Houseavonld acquit him of the truss Mill that had been ascribed to him, in saying that he had seen ploughs in Ire • land drawn by six bulls—bullocks, not Imil l s ) i l l i i•as ; the expression Ite.' had used.—(A . laugh.) Mr. kVit;..et RE at professed his regret for bay-. ing but t a u s i . lll r e e i h t a h r7 ; s t e l- C ' t i l l' a ß l ' r i t r ;li n t e li t .a 's w b it u tg li 7n k t:. i i i :l t o Otigh in England, he supposed that.there might sometimes be fx bulls so employed on the heavy lands in Ireland. Another Hon. Member (Mr. Marryat) seemed to feel extremely sore at an allusion to what he had said on a former. night. What he had ttten said on the subject of land-owners be ing equally entitled to call upon merchants for an account ut their profits was merely as an illus.*