The Sun. — London, England, 1849-03-20 00:00:00

Naed in a tropical climate. In 1843, the mortality Was only 2i per cent. ; in 1844, 2} per cent.; in 1845.3 Per cent.; in 1846, 2 per cent.; in 1847 (yellow fever), Per cent. In the island of Barbadoes no higher eleva- II:on than 1,000 feet could be reached, and it was the opi nion of medical men that that was not above the floating "ace of the fever contagion. With respect to the e ncampment of the men, of course, Genera l Berkele y Possessed the power of ordering such encampment, but net until after receiving a report from the medical officer rto the necessity of a measure of that ki nd. In men „Oiling the name of General Berkel e y , he was bound to "late that his attention to the men under his command p as unremitting. He visited them , not weekl y , but went from bed to bed in every ward, spoke to foam, encouraged them, risked his life for their cora t• He was happy to state that the e p idemic had now I na great degree passed away , and that, accordin g to oelast accounts, there remained only t wo cases in the pital. He hoped the unfortunate occurrences which h ad taken place would lead, at least, to this good re- I nit . ---the establishment at Barbadoe 3 of a n efficient s anitary barrack upon Gun Hill, to which the troops eetild in future be removed on the first appearance O f yellow fever. He wished now to say a few words as to the general conduct of t h e arm y durin g the past year. The House, after what it had done for the army of late years. could not fail to take a lively Interest in the moral conduct and general behaviour of the troops. He had not been able to collect all the in ilormation he had wished to obtain on this subject; but might state to the House the result of his inquiries with reference to the troops stationed in Ireland during 1 1 e months of June, July, August , and S e p tember last. , D uring rhat time the greater portion o f the arm y in Ire land was either under canvass, exposed to very bad Weather, or huddled up in barracks, where v er y insuffi- Zlent: accommodation c ould be provided for large num bers of men ; and the troops were, therefore, exposed to rvations which, if discontent had existed, would pro in ably have led to its manifestation by acts of misconduct. the month of June there was in Ireland 28,324 men, a nd corporal punishment was awarded to 1 in 3,149 ; in 1 . 11 3 7 the army consisted of 27,954 men, and corporal Punishment was awarded to 1 in 3,106; in August there were 30,996 men. and corporal punishment was awarded to l in 3,099; and in September the army numbered 31 ,343 men. and corporal punishment was awarded to 1 I n 2 ,403. During the whole year the punishments in the army were only in the proportion of 1 in 1,090 men; and within the same period the total number of courts-martial held, including regimental as well as general courts, was only 1,228. Ile thought this statement was sufficient to show that the general good conduct of the army would not only realise the hopes of that House, but would give them and the country reason to be proud that they had a body of men to whom they could so confidently look for Protection.—(Hear, hear.) The total number of men Placed in confinement during the year ending the 31st of December, had been 4,043; and the average number in Confinement had been 784 ; and the total expense of their ' maintenance had been 14 , 8011 . , which was mo re than covered by the stoppage of their pay and beer money during their imprisonment. Then with re g ard to ee conduct of the prisoners, the extent of serious o ffences brought before the visitors might be judged of from the tpunishments inflicted. He found that, for prison 2fiences, 21 prisoners hadtbeen placed in solitary con finement, 1 in irons, and corporal punishment had been tricted in 13 aggravated cases. He thought these facts s howed that their endeavours to improve the mural con dition of the army had been successful, and should en courage them to persevere in t he same course.—(Hear, ' , ear.) With regard to the education of the men, six trained schoolmasters were about to be sent from the e stablishment originated by his Right Hon. Friend op posite to take charge of garr ison schocls in Engla n d ; and he hoped that many years w ould not ela p se bef o re they would es tablish one uniform system o f sc h ool train ing for the whole army. The advantage of this arrange ment would be that such soldiers as chose to receive I nstruction, and all the children of soldiers, would find, ,nn removing to new quarter s, that the ch a nge in the locality of the school was not accom p anied b y an y change in the system of educa tion p ursued. He wished, before he sat down, to say a few words in refutation of charges which had been brought against the army in R,eneral by a body of individu als who had constituted teemselves a Financial Reform Committee in Liverpool. '(lleat-, hear.) He would not have noticed any of these Charges if they had been founded in fact or in truth.— (Hear, hear, and cheers.) He did not object, and he was l ure no persons in the army would object to the closest actottiny into the whole expenditure of that service; but With such a scrutiny the officers of the army had no -4"log to do; it rested with the officials of the Government and with the determination of the House. He would not ° bJG4 to any scrutiny into the expenditure of the army Conducted in a fair and proper manner; but, as the state ments put forth by the Financial Committee of Liver- Pool were neither founded in fairness nor in justice— Cheers)—and as they would tend not only to do infinite Injury to the army, but to the very parties who were Putting forth those statements, he thought it necessary to say a few words on the subject. The committee to Ivhicla he alluded had attacked the system of clothing the a r my ; but surely they might have attacked that system without imputing motives—(Hear) --to the colo nels whose duty it was to provide the clothing for their men, not by any a rran g ement of their own, but under a 73',.atein which had existed for upwards of 140 years.— Ilear, hear.) The committee might certainly have quired into this matter before insisting that tho co rnels and quarter - masters of regiments laid their heads 'Nether to change the pattern of the articles with which the soldier was compelled to provide himself, in order that their own profits might be enhanced.—(Herr, hear.) 14 e syst e m of clothing the army ha d been the sub j ect of several inquiries, and it the parties by whom those in quiries had been conducted had not been able to recom mend a better plan than that now pursued, he did not think it very liktly that the Liverpool Committee would so. In 17 83 the clothin g s) stem was ingaired into by the Commissioners of - Public Accounts, who stated that they could not reco any change either in Point of economy, ur of satisfaction to the soldier. In 17 98 the subject was inquired into by the Finance Cons taittee, and in 1808 by a military commission, Kith the same result. In 1833 a Committee of that House, many of seh ene he would venture to say were as prejudiced as any members of the Liverpool Financial Committee, went into the consideration of tke subject, and they agreed unanimously to a report containing these pas- 'ages:— "It further appears that the wholesome cautions and checks by which the supp l y of clothin g b y the colonels uas been accompanied have invariably secured the Comfort and satisfaction of the soldier, and the complete efficiency of this branch of the public service. The Com. ruittee are not, therefore, prepared to suggest any chan ge in this long-established system, which, although at first it may appear anomalous, and to involve the ob iectionable principle of giving profit to the colonels out of moneys ostensibly voted for another purpose, secures the responsibility of those officers for the just and punc tual distribution of the clothing to the different regi t'acnts, dispersed as they are throughout various and die taut colonies, and which at the same time protects the public from the losses t o which the y would be ex p osed y the accumulation of stores of this description supplied Under the management of public boards from extensive establishments, superannuation allowances to those who conduct them, and from that multiplicity of accounts Which a transfer of the charge of this supply from those la whom it is now vested into any other hands must inevitably produce." Re thought, then, that it was somewhat hard to charge I upon the "clothing colonels," as they were most invi diously called, the responsibility of a system which they had not themselves create d—which had under g one no less than four scrutinies, and for which no substitute had b e en proposed.—(Hear, hear.) But he was sorry to observe that the Liverpool Committee did not confine themselves to these insinuations against the colonels; he had read their pamphlets with great care, and it seemed to him that their chief object was to run down the officer in the opinion of the soldier,—(Hear, hear.) The offi cers of the army were held up to odium, and it was said th e army was erected and maintained for the benefit of the aristocracy. Indeed the whole tone of the pamphlet Was, in his opinion, dangerous in the extreme, not only to the constitution of the army, but to the very exist ence of good order in this country.—(Hear, hear.) Now, if the soldier should, from any circumstance, lose th a t confidence which he now justly reposed in his commanding officer, and if he consequently lost his regard for discipline, he (Mr. Fox Maule) had no hesi tation in saying that the army would at once be come an armed rabble.—(Hear, hear.) If this were the case, who would be the first to suffer from such a state of things? Not the officers of the army, not the landed gentry, who lived on their estates in the country; but the inhabit ants of to wns. Instead of having or derly and well-behaved soldiers, who kept their hands from picking and stealing, and who offered no violence to their neighbours, walking through the streets, they would have a diso rderl y rabble, thieving in one direc tion, an d assaulting in another, and the peaceable inha bitants would rue the day when the Financial Reform Committee of Liverpool, or any other Reform Commit tee, began to hold up the officers of the army to odium and reproach.—(Hear.) lie did not make these obser vations from any objection to inquiry into the expendi ture,of the public money, but because he thought auy inquiry on this subject should be carried on with due re gard to the feelings of the officers of the army, to the discipline of their men, and to the safety of the public ; and not in a manner which might tend to destroy that respect for authority and discipline without which the British army, instead of being a boast and protection, Would be a disgrace to this country.—(Hear.) The CHAIRMAN then read the first vote, for 103,254 Men to constitute the land forces of the United Kingdom. Lord DRUMLANRIG said, he thought the House Would agree with him that the mortality at Barbadoes Was no light case. Out of 13 officers who accompanied th e 66th Regiment only two had escaped the fever, seven had died, and four had been at the point of death. The Mortality in the 72d Regiment was quite as bad, and still continued. He was glad to hear that a new station was to be erected for troops in Barbadoes. The present bar racks at St. Anne's were most defective in accommoda tion. The barracks were built in a square, so that there could never be a free current of air; and they adjoined a graveyard, from which there was a most offensive smell. 11 0 officer had more than one room, and from 80 to 90 Men were crammed together in one apartment. He hoped that Assistant-Surgeon Simpson's letter to Dr. Davy, the medical superintendent, would be produced, because he was informed that at least 40 men died before orders Were given to encamp the regiment. The expenses in curred by the officers had arisen from their leaving the barracks when the fever broke out, and hiring houses at the cost of 7/. or Si. a month. Mr. HUME was gratified to find that gradual pro gress was being made in ameliorating the condition of our soldiers. He had frequently said, when they h a d heard i n th a t House of the brutal treatment to which soldiers were subjected,—of one man receiving 1,000 lashes or more, that until they treated men better they Must not expect better conduct; and now that corporal PlttlibllMent was annst entirely ab9li§hod, they found the conduct of soldiers was greatly improved.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped the Secretary at War would persevere in his endeavours to promote the comfort of the troops; and he (Mr. Hume) would recommend that provision should be made in connexion with all barracks for enabling the men to employ their spare time in amuse ments or healthful exercise, He hoped his Right Hon. Friend would persevere in providing room and means in all barracks to enable the men to improve themselves; for he understood from officers that, when such means ex isted, there was always a certain number of men in every company taking advantage of them, and gradu ally inducing others, by their example, to abandon habits of idleness. He should not grudge the trifling expense necessary for this object, being convinced that the greater efficiency of the men would more than com pensate any sure of money expended in promoting their health and morals.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the Liverpool Association, be thought his Right Hon. Friend might have omitted his allusions to that body. Ile (Mr. Hume) was Rot a member of that association only be cause he resided at a distance, and had laid down a rule to confine himself within what he called his own legiti mate limits.—(Laughter.) Ho thought the Liverpool Association had done good service in opening the eyes of the country to abuses in regard to the national establish ments. He had often heard it remarked that that man was a benefactor to his country who made two blades of grass grow where only one grew before ; and so he thought he was a national benefactor who could make in future 5/. go as far as 101. did at present.—(Hear, and laughter.) The charge against the Liverpool Associa tion was that they had accused the colonels of regiments of being tailors. Mr. F. MAULE.—The charge against the Liverpool Association is that they accused the colonels of com bining with the quarter-masters for the purpose of cheating the soldiers.—(Hear.) Mr. HUME admitted that that was a great error, and most unjust accusation.—(Hear.) This he knew from the investigation before the Committee of 1833, for which he moved; but at the same time ho must observe that at that period the artillery were clothed better than the line (though the clothing of the latter had improved since the sitting of that CommitteeA and no colonel was connected with the clothing of the artil lery in the same way as in the line. While willing to accord to colonels of the line all that their rank and station entitled them to, he still retained his opinion, that connecting the colonels with the clothing of the men was placing the former in an anomalous situation, and that it would be better net to afford even a pretence for charges such as the Right Honourable Gentleman had alluded to.—(Hear, hear.) He thought it, therefore, hard that a severe charge should have been made against the Liverpool Assocation for an error into which they might have been led in consequence of the anoma lous position in which the colonels were placed. The Liverpool Association would do no evil if they con fined themselves to the truth—(Hear, hear)—and to official documents, as they were now doing. They would then be conferring on the country good service, and he would not quarrel with them for one or two ac cidental errors. With regard to the health of the army, he recollected that when, many years ago, he proposed that statistics on the ;subject should be commutii cated to Parliament, he was laughed at by the greater part of the military men in the House; but now he trusted that those statistics to which the Right Hon. Gentleman had referred, and to the preparation of which Colonel Tulloch had devoted his talents, would be laid before the House ; for he was certain that they would be found extremely useful. With regard to the present estimates, he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman had laid them before the House in a very clear and distinct manner, and had candidly stated the reasons why the proposed large military establishment was to be maintained. One of these reasons consisted in the aspect of affairs abroad.—(Hear.) Now, though he (Mr. Hume) was anxious to see our troops effec tive and our military establishment adequate, he was against maintaining an excessive establishment, which drained the resources of the country, and was only re quired for the purpose of meddling with the affairs of other nations. Had this country abstained from inter ference in the affairs of other nations, the people would have been saved from an addition of debt amounting to between 600,000,000/., and 700,000,0001.; and, conse quently, no declaration gave greater satisfaction than that of Lord Grey, fin 1830, that his Government would act on the principle of non-intervention. He could not understand why we should put ourselves to so great an expense by maintaining an exorbitant military establish ment, for the purpose of enabling us to interfere abroad, and preventing the people there settling their own affairs as they pleased.—(Hear, hear.) Fur this reason he objected to the number of men now proposed to be voted. If it were said that the proposed amount must be kept up to enable us to provide for our colonies, he would ask where was the country which would attempt to interfere with any of our colonies? England must be low and weak indeed before any nation would dare to do so; and, consequently, he did not see that the troops of this country were now wanted in the colonies. Canada had now a responsible Governme: t, and yet in British North Atnei ica no less than 6,000 or 8,000 troops were maintained, together with accompanying artillery, sappers, miners, and corn • rnissariat, for a certain number of the line not only re quired an expenditure on their own account, but always induced a great additional expense for other companies attached to them In these colonies wht should not the militia be sufficient for the preservation of tranquillity ? Or, if that body were not sufficient for the purpose, let the colonies maintain a police at their own expense. Were not Van Diemen's Land and New South Wales capable of governing themselves, if we would only , dlow them, and luck the doors of the Colonial-office ? The Right Honourable Gentleman might allude to Ceylon, but what lid to the war ? The misconduct of the Government ; and if we would send out men utterly incapable, and assist them with the mischievous meddling of the Colonial-office, could we wonder that war was the result ? Take the Cape of Good Hope and New Zealand ; now that matters were settled, why should the people of England, borne down as they were by various circumstances and changes, be required to maintain such large military establishments? It Par liament would take from Ministers their power of ship ping off thousands of our countrymen to support good or had government in the colonies, as might happen, it A ould be doing a great kindness to the Ministry, placing them in a situation to avoid the complaints at present made.—(Hear, and a laugh.) 'With regard to the re serve, the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. F. Maule) had made too much of that. But to come to the subject of the force at home; was it not a matter of serious consi deration that the House should be told by the Govern ment that it was necessary to maintain 20,000 men more than we had in 1836 at home, for fear of the people? He (Mr. Hume) had always considered England a country governed by civilians, and proud of the boast of Elizabeth, when asked where were her guards. "Look around; every subject I have is my guard." Now we were changing our tone, and keeping 50,000 soldiers in these islands. No class was more interested in maintaining the public peace than the working man, for he must he the first and greatest sufferer in case of disturbance; and if so large a force was required to preserve pence at home, it was high time to ascertain what were the causes of discontent that ren dered it necessary.—(Hear.) From the time of the Duke of ,York becoming Commander-in-Chief this country lost much of its civil character; we had had too many soldiers ; and the magistrates were too fond of sending for troops in case of any disturbance, instead of trusting to the civil power. Some magistrates, if a cat disturbed a heap of straw, were for sending for a troop of soldiers.—(Laughter.) The affair at Leeds had been mentioned; and so this large military force was to be kept up from fear of men asking for their rights!—(Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. F. Maule), indeed, had no power to refuse these requests for military aid—it rested with the Home-office; but let him tell the Home Secretary, when he came in, or any Other of the Ministers—none of them were in the House —that it would be much better to yield to [the reason able wishes of the mass of the people than to maintain a force to keep them quiet—to make them contented, and then the posse comitatus would suffice to preserve the peace.—(Hear, hear.) Why, last year we had a force of above 185,000 armed men, and, with the police, upwards of 200,000. Surely we were losing our senses, fright ened at our own shadows, and bearing down ourselves with the load of military expense. Let it not be said that be (Mr. Hume) was proposing too large a reduction; the average number of men voted for the army in the three years 1833 to 1836 was 86,547, and the force was found sufficient to maintain peace and quietness at home and abroad. He thought he had made out a strong ca , e. Let lion. Gentlemen opposite support him, and he would make a reduction that would include malt-tax, hop-duty, bricks, soap, window, paper duty, some 9,250,0001.; in fact, we might save 11,000,000/. with great ease, and be in perfect security. The Hon. Gen tleman concluded by moving that the number of men should be reduced to 89,000. The question having been put, Mr. 11. DRUMMOND thought that as none of her Majesty's Ministers were present to give their opinions to the House—and no doubt they were discussing these matters over a cool bottle—(A laugh)—such bumble Members as himself might as well have a little conversa tion on the subject of the estimates. The Hon. Gentle man the Member for Montrose said he thought there ought to be a great reduction is our military establish ments, and he complained that there was much extrava gance shown in all these matters. Now undoubtedly there was a great expenditure under this head ; but he thought it was evident that the more we increased in trade, in manufactures, and population, the more we must increase in a force of some kiud, and he did not much care whether that force appeared in blue coats or in red.—(Hear, hear.) It was not the country boobies (as the country gentlemen might perhaps be called on the other side) who caused this increase, but it was the mayors of enlightened town consti tuencies in the manufacturing districts who called meetings with one hand, and with the other applied for military aid to keep them in order—(A laugh)—for just in proportion as these merchants and manufacturers were cowards the one minute they were bullies the other. —(A laugh.) They were the people who led us into war in China and South America, as the House had heard the other night, and now they turned tail upon her Majesty's Government, and charged it with having incurred the expense.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Now he thought that if they entered into war they should not come out of it till they had conquered.—(Hear.) Either they should not begin to fight at all, or they should fight if it was necessary till they were dead. — (Hear, hear, and laughter.) They were bound to stand upon the ground they had taken up till they could get well out of it, and then they were not to grudge the ex penses incurred by the Government.—(Hear.) Now, as regarded the artillery, it had been complained of that we had a much greater outlay for artillerymen than we had during the war. Unquestionably it was so ; but there was not a man, even the lowest judge in military matters, who did not confess that the arm in which we were most inferior during the war was the artillery.— (Ilear, bear.) And thou it must bo remembered that it was impossible to find . this arm in time of war, but by long previous service. But they were told that these things were only said on the word of military men; that those military men were not proper judges how to de fend the country, and that civilians were the only good judges on such a imetter. Now, this fallacy lay at, the bottom of the whole question, and it was therefore well to examine it a little. It appeared to him that it was a burlesque of the old saying, '• Who drives fat oxen should himself be fat."—(A laugh.) In other words, " Who pays a general must himself be a general."—(A laugh.) It was gravely maintained by the Hon. Gentleman the Member for the West Riding that it was a question for the tax-payers, and not the military, to decide what was the pro portion of men necessary for the defence of the country.—(Hear.) Why, if Gentlemen opposite did not see the absurdity of such an argument, he hoped the country would. Ho would tell them that they were not competent judges of this matter. What would they think if a party of general officers were to go to Man chester to instruct them how to make cotton twist?— (" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) Would they not answer that they were a set of meddling fools? On the same principle, he held that Gentlemen in that House were going beyond their borders, that they were presuming too far when they entered upon a matter of which they were essentially, and necessarily-, and naturally not judges.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman, the Mem ber for the West Riding, however, said, "You only are the judges—take care, therefore, how you perform your duty; you are sent here to determine upon all these,eco nomical questions." Now they might sit in that House as judges, but then there were among them certain gen tlemen who had been called to the particular business of doing duty in the service of the Crown. These Gentle man were made acquainted with the affairs of all the va ried Governments of Europe, and were capable of knowing their objects and intentions. Looking, then, at the general state of Europe, they might say that they required a certain number of soldiers to carry on the business of their Government; but Hon. Gentlemen opposite, having no means of know ing these matters, exclaimed, " Oh, the Government is wrong; they do not know what is required for the in• terests of the country; we alone know what number of ; men are required."—(Hear, hear.) Now he held that, as judges of the case before them, they had nothing to do but to decide according to the opinion of her Majesty's Government, who only could know what the circum stances of the country required.—(Hear, hear.) It ap peared to him that on such a question they were all equally stupid—(A langh)—and that they ought to put confidence in those persons who must, of necessity, be better informed that the Gentlemen seated on the other side.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had spoken of the evidence given by the late First Lord of the Ad miralty before the Committee as embracing " a vague generality," because he said the reasons for preferring a certain number of sailors and soldiers were to be con sidered, not with reference to the year 1835, but to the general state of Europe. Now, he looked upon that not as a " vague generality," but as common sense; and he must say, that of all persons in the world, the Man chester gentlemen had given proof of their utter incompetence to give reasons drawn from the general state of Europe.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that a more upright man or one who would give more satis factory testimony regarding what he saw or heard did not exist than the Hon. Member for the West Riding; but they must recollect also that there was not a man in the country who stood convicted of being so utterly unable to give an accurate opinion of the state of Europe as the Hon. Gentleman was.—(A laugh.) No man had been so unfortunate in his prophecies—none had ever been so completely refuted by the events.—(Hear, hear.) He spoke of our having nearest us peaceable and friendly neighbours;—why, he might go to the Zoological-gar dens, and, because he saw the tigers lying quietly in their lairs, he might speak of them as peaceable and harmless animals; and perhaps he might amuse himself with the antics of the monkeys. But let them be set loose, and he would find what altered creatures both tigers and monkeys would become.—(A. laugh.) In France the whole nation to a man had been rendered able to express their opinions, and they had just run mad after the ghost of a grey greatcoat and a very little hat.—(A laugh.) They had just given to the world the information that the time when they were happiest was not a time of free trade, but when they were under the Berlin and Milan decrees; that the time they were look ing back to with the greatest delight was when they were under an absolute Emperor, and that the thing they were aspiring to again was another thirty years of war with England.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. M. GIBSON, in reference to what had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman opposite, would admit that, if he wanted to know how to deal with a regiment when it was brought into the field, he would apply to a military officer; and if he wanted to know how a ship was to be kept away from a lee shore, or handled in battle, he would apply to a professional man, but he would not apply to a professional man on matters of general policy, or as to what was necessary for the safety of the country.—(Hear, hear.) He declined altogether setting up military and naval men as a sort of independent go vernment in the state.—(Hear, bear.) On the contrary ' he regarded them as public servants, and not as th e only persons to be consulted as to the number of men the establishments of the country required. There were always complaints of the great difficulty which Govern meat telt in resisting the demande of the army, &c., for grants, and if it were not for what were called the gen tlemen of the Manchester school, those appeals would become altogether irresistible. He would support the motion of the lion. Member for Montrose, tw.inly be cause no reason had been shown for keeping so large a force in our co!onios. As to the Committee appointed to inquire into the condition of the services, he cou!d not help expressing a wish that they bad been em powered to inquire into the amount of the forces re quiri,d, se that they might hive the whole question thus brought before them.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. J. O'CONNELL would promise the Government that if they brought in measures to meet the just de mands of Ireland, they would be able to dispense with three-fourtl4s of the military now in that country. Mr. W. P. WOOD, after the lecture read to the House by the Hon. Member opposite (Mr. Drummond) did not rise to speak on this subject without some apprehensions. his principal reason for doing so, however, was to die charge a duty to his constituents, from 1,250 of whom he presented a petition on this subject last session. That petition was signed, among others, by Mr. Caldwell, who had had great experience in the recruiting service; and it suggested to the House to employ the militia staff for the purpose of recruiting the army, to form the recruits into special corps similar to those of the pensioners, to be drafted off into the different regiments when ne cessary, and that in the meantime they might be em ployed doing the same duty as pensioners. Such was the opinion expressed in that petition, and he understood the plan had been approved of by experienced officers. It always appeared to him that there were no debates in that House so unsatisfactory as the debates on the estimates. They were generally of a stereotyped character.—(Hear.) A certain number of gentlemen got up and said they sup ported the Government because it had the responsibility of administering the affairs of the country. On the other hand, in the same stereotyped form the Government came forward and said none of the responsibility was to be thrown upon them; that every vote was agreed to by the House; and that they were nut to be held answerable for it. Now, both these propositions could not be correct; and hence the unsatisfactory character of these debates. As to professional men being the only judges, he would ad mit that the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Drummond) would be correct if the question was as to how troops were to be occupied in the field. They were called upon to vote 27,000 men more than in 1835, 1836, and 1837; in addi tion to which there was a force of 15,000 pensioners, who did not exist in those years, besides a large increase of police in this country and the constabulary of Ireland. These were matters upon which the House might fairly be deemed competent to form an opinion. It was obvious too, that whenever the cause of increase of force had ceased to exist they never heard of tiny reduction. This was a fact which naturally struck the most common understanding. Another form which these stereotyped debates assumed was this:—They were told they were now at peace with all the world; but they must remember the only way to preserve that peace was to be well armed. Of course they ought to be effi ciently armed; but why, in order to be so, was it ne cessary to have 27,000 men more now than at any former period? And were there not other measures which might make them more likely to be at peace besides being prepared for war? The sinews of war were not men only, but money also. Now last year there was a deficiency of something like 2,000,0001., and this year we were told that we should barely meet our expenses. Were we not, then, by maintaining this large military establishment, incurring another, that of being uaable from our financial resources to meet the exigency of a war? Let them remember the breaking down of the efforts of the Minister to increase the income-tax. From the earliest records it would be found that every revolution had arisen from the people being overbur dened by taxation. There had been one novelty introduced into this debate—it had been said that although the Government had been extravagant, it had not been worse than many railway companies.— (Laughter.) if they analyzed more strictly the conduct of the railway directors, he believed it would be found that they had been influenced by an insane apprehension of foreign invasion, by competing companies—and in order to resist them they had expended all their re. sources. So we, from as ill-founded an apprehension of foreign invasion, were about to waste all our resources. But from what quarter was this invasion to be feared? From France, and France only. He regretted to hear the Hon. Member (Mr. Drummond) express his fear of a French invasion; and equally did he regret to hear him draw a contrast between what he called the Man chester school—meaning the manufacturing interest — and the agricultural community. If there was any dan ger more to be feared than another in this country, it was an attempt to divide the people into distinct and con flicting classes.—(Hear.) On a late oc casion—and he felt it most deeply—a bitter and most marked division was made, as between class and class — which , if it were to suc ceed, would be most fatal to society, and resolve it into a state of ruin and confusion. No country could prosper with a landed, a commercial, and a manutheturing . popu lation not acting in unison one with another. An impor tant fact had been communicated to him by a French gentleman lung resident in this country in connexion with the French diplomatic department. He stated as a proof of the indisposition of the French people to go to war, that at the end of the seventeen years of Louis Philippe's reign the price of a substitute for the con scription was double that which had to be paid at the be ginning of his reign. Unfortunately we had gone too far in regarding France our natural enemy. Those who lived nearest to us were, he conceived. naturally our friends, neighbours, and allies. He belonged neither to the Manchester school nor to the Liverpool Finance As sociation ; but certainly he did look forward to com merce as the means of promoting general peace through out Europe; though he did not regard any other inte rest inimical to peace ; and least of ell did he look upon THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 20, 1849. France as our enemy. He trusted she never would be. —(Cheers.) He remembered being especially pleased with some fine lines of our admirable poet Ssak-pere, which might be most appropriately quoted in relation to this subject : " God, the best maker of all marriages, Combine your hearts in one, your realms in one! As man and wife, being two, arc one in love, So be there 'tivixt your kingdoms such a spousal That never may ill office, or fell jealousy, Which troubles oft the bed of blessed marriage, Thrust in between the pactions of these kingdoms, To make divorce of their incorporate league; That English may as French, French Englishmen, Receive each other! God speak this Amen!" —(Cheers.) Mr. HENRY DRUMMOND, in explanation, said that he did not intend to express any apprehension of the probability of a French invasion; nor had he drawn any contrast between the manufacturing and agricultural interests. He felt convinced that it would be a very great evil if any such contrast existed. Mr. V. SMITH believed it was the wish of her Majesty's Ministers that the estimates should be dis cussed by the House ; for all the applications made to them were for an increase of the estimates, and unless they could reply that any proposal of that tendency would meet with opposition in the House of Commons, they were left entirely without any answer to such ap plications. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. F. Maule) had laid down the question of colonial protection most broadly, as if any amount of military expense might be justified upon that ground. But colonial protection stood upon different footing from wl at it formerly did. Having applied the doctrine of fres trade to your colonies, there no longer existed the necessity of extending mili tary protection to those colonies on commercial grounds. Still he (Mr. V. Sit ith) considered it necessary to main tain garrisons in some of the colonies for the purposes of war, and the question was, what were the colonies in which such garrisons should be maintained ? They were bound, he conceived, to protect those that were planted by British subjects from invasion and from the incursions of the aborigines; but this obligation ceased as soon as the colonists were able to protect themselves. In rela tion to our great North American provinces, there oc curred a question which it was the duty of Ministers seriously to consider. The powers of self-government had been conferred upon them, and from that moment the necessity of extending protection to them ceased. Whenever circumstances arose —and it was a case which we must contemplate—which should place those pro vinces in antagonism with this country, we must look forward to the question of separation.—(Hear, hear.) He would therefore advise the Government to anticipate that event, by adopting measures that should make the sepa ration an amicable one, and not the result of force. Were the Canadas to be invaded by the United States it would be impossible for this country to send out troops to protect them. The Colonial Minister should, there fore look forward to this question. At present the colo nists of New Zealand required protection against the aboriginal inhabitants, but that was not the case with Australia. The Right lion. Gentleman expressed his disapproval of sending convicts to our colonies, espe cially to those colonies to which honest and pure-minded men were invited to emigrate. He then adverted to the want of information by the House on all colonial sub jects until very heavy expenses were incurred. Such was the case in the instance of the Kafir war; so, also, with regard to the extension of the colony of Natal, and to the establishment of a colonial Government in the island of Labuan, under Sir James Brooke. There were only two cures for these things; the one was to require the colonists to protect themselves, and the other was that her Majesty should be advised by her Ministers, whenever she intended to extend her colonial territories or to found new colonies, to send down a message to Parliament stating that such things were about to be done, and setting forth how much money would be re quired to carry them into execution. Considering, how ever, that due notice should be given to those colonies which were hereafter to protect themselves, before re quiring them to do so, he could not vote for the amend ment now proposed. Mr. RICE agreed with much that had fallen from the Right Hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. V. Smith) with respect to self-government in the colonies. But it ought not to be forgotten that the whole tendency of the policy of Government was to give the colonies self government.—(Hear, hear.) H e (Mr. Rice) believed that when that system was carried out the House would not need to vote the same number of men as at present for the purpose of protecting the colonies. But the House must decide that great question first.—(Hear, hear.) He assured the Hon. Member for Montrose that military gentlemen were as anxious for all practicable reduction in the expenses of the army as the Hon. Gen ' tleman himself was ; but he (Mr. Rice) for one would not, for the sake of giving a popular vote, vote for a re duction which he knew to be impracticable. He felt in the same way with reference to the blockade on the coast of Africa. He was favourable to the removal of that blockade, and, if the Government were not able to give a better reason for its continuance than he had yet heard, he was prepared to vote against it; but he was not prepared to vote for a reduction of the number of men in the navy if it could be shown that the Government were called upon by the existing state of things to maintain a force there. When these questions were settled the num ber of men both in the army and navy might probably be safely reduced. But until they were settled he would not vote for a reduction. Captain BOLDER° remarked, that the Right Hon. Member for Northampton had talked of the necessity of a reduction of the militar.y. force _in_ the colonies; but what was the actual condition of the colonies at this mo ment? Could Ceylon do without troops?—(Hear, hear.) Could it be pretended that the West Indies coo d do without troops an their present discontented state, or that they would be justified in withdrawing their troops from the Canadas?—(dear, hear.) They were all aware, too, of the condition of the Cape of Good Hope. These things arose from the system of mis-government which prevailed throughout our whole colonies.—(Bear, hear.) If the Government changed their system, and should succeed in making the people contented and satisfied, he admitted that then they might safely withdraw a large hody of these troops.—(Hear, hear.) But there were cer tain colonies in which they were compelled to keep a large force. The events that were occurring in Europe compelled them to do it. Take Gibraltar, for example, or Malta, in both of which places we were obliged to have large forces,—(Hear.) Then there were the Greek islands. We were put in possession of the lonian islands by the Greeks themselves, upon the understanding that we should give them military protection, and, having got possession of those islands upon that understanding, we could not now withdraw our promised protection without a breach of faith.—(Hear, hear.) If the amendment of the Hon. Member for Montrose were carried, what would be the result? The scale which had been laid down with respect to the length of colonial service would have to be altered. Hitherto, the colonial duty had pressed upon our troops in a most unpardonable and unwarrantable manner. He knew a regiment that had been 23 years in the East Indies; it was then 13 years at the Cape and Mauritius, and had been nine years in England. It was at present, however, under orders to return to the East Indies, where it would have to remain for 15 years. So that out of 60 years it would only have spent nine years in England. That was our colonial system. A new regulation had been made, limiting the length of service in our colonies; but if the Hon. Member s amendment were carried it would b e i m p o ssible to carry that regulation into effect. It wou ld th e refore occasion a breach of faith with the soldier.—(Hear, hear.) The ' Hon. and Learned Member for the city of Oxford had objected to class legislation. No man disliked class legislation more than himself (Captain Boldero), but he would ask the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had begun it? Sir W. MOLESWORTH said that his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose had proposed to return to the establishment of 1835, and to make a reduction of 14,000 men in the force of the army. Could this reduc tio n be made without injury to the interests of the empire? Were the number of soldiers excessive either at ho m e or abroad? At home the force was 61,000, or 1 1 , 500 men more than in 1835. Was thatforceoo great? When he remembered the events of last year in Ireland; when he considered that they had to provide reliefs and reinforce ments for 28,000 troops in India, and to supply the places of those brave men who had been led on to unne cessary slaughter by rash and incompetent generals; when he considered that they had likewise to provide reliefs for 32,000 British troops in the colonies; that the services of those troops were of the most arduous and disagreeable kind; for instance, bush fighting and cattle driving at the C a p e, g uardin g co nvicts in Australia, and combating sa va g es in New Zealand. When he considered that some of these troops were sta tioned amidst the snows of Canada,and others were broiling in the West Indies, he must acknowledge that it would he cruel and unjust to compel these men to pass more than halt their lives in such inglorious services.--, (Hear, hear.) He could not, therefore, at present vote for a reduction of the military force at home, which would tend to the prolongation of the p eriod of militar y services in the colonies. — ( 11 " 1.) hear.) lie s h ould , however, vote for a reduction of the force in the colonies, , on the ground that if they wer e p ro p erl y g overned hal f the present force would be amp le.—(Hear, he ar.) At of colonial i . al corps, making present the force in the col onies consisted of 32,000 i ß n ri a t l i l sh 42 t , r o o o o o p s, men,an e l x o c , lu e o 0 v in en f and engineers, an increase of about 2, 500 men on the estab l i shment of 1835. These troops, secluding artillery, & c ., cost the country about 2,500,0004 a year.— (Hear.) He should first propose to reduce the orce on our military stations,twhich amounted to about 22,000 men. He .should begin with withdrawing the troops frc in the lonian Islands. He denied that Great Britain was bound either by treaties with the great powers of Europe, or by convention with the lonian States to keep any specific number of troops in those islands. But he considered that the lonian States were bound by convention to pay the expenses of all British troops not exceeding the number of 3,000 m en , which had been about the average number of troops in those islands. It would have been impossible fur the lonian States to fulfil this agreement. It would have required a larger sum than tbei: whole revenue. Time after time fresh agreements had been made with them for smaller and smaller contributions on account of military protec tion ; those agreements had never been fulfilled for any considerable period of time.—(Hear, hear.) At present they were upwards of 200,000/. in arrear ; it was but fair, however, to state that they had paid since 1816 not less than 800,0001. for military protection, a sum enor mous in proportion to the population of these islands, which did net exceed 220,000; enormous in proportion to their revenue, which amounted to about 150,0001. a-year. In addition to that 800,0001. Great Britain had expended since 1816 at least 4,000,0001. on these islands, to which the export trade did not exceed 95,0001. a year on the average of the last twenty years. If, instead of annually expending 120,0001. a year on troops for those islands, that money bad been annually laid by and permitted to accumulate, by this time the accumulations would have been sufficient to pay the expense of conquering those islands twenty times over, if it were necessary to do 80. But the best mode for a Government to lay money by was to leave it to fructify in the pockets of the people by diminishing taxation.—(hear, hear.) Therefore, he proposed to withdraw the troops from the lonian Islands and to exempt the States from any further contributions on account of military protection; for so doing they would bless that House, and, by so doing, that Rouse might reduce 3,000 men. Next ho propose a reduction in the military force at the Cape of Good Hope: the year before last that force consisted of nine regi ments; last year it consisted of six regiments, in all above 5,000 men, including a colonial corps, but exclusive of artillery and engineers. He doubted whether such a force, including artillery, &c., could be maintained at the Cape for less than 500,0001. a year. He acknowledged at once that if the British empire in South Africa was to be maintained according to the boundaries fixed by Sir H. Smith, and those boundaries were to be protected against the incursions of savages, then ere long twice 5,000 soldiers and an annual expen diture of 1,000,0001. sterlinn , would be required. But he proposed to withdraw the British troops; to let the Boers take care of themselves; to let the colonists ma nsgo their own affairs; and merely to keep a garrison of 1,000 men at Cape Town. He warned the House that if they did not follow his advice they would have, in ad dition to the ordinary military expenditure of about half a million a year, to vote every few years a few millions on account of Kafir and Zoolah wars. He therefore proposed to make a reduction of 4,000 men in the mili tary force of the Cape of Good Hope.—(Hear, hear.) Next, with regard to Ceylon. At present the military force in that colony amounted to 4,000 men, including colonial corps. A portion of the expense of that force had been defrayed by the colony—a burden they were anxious to transfer to the Imperial Treasury. Without doubt, if that colony continued to be adminis tered as it had been by the Colonial-office, 4,000 troops were not too many to keep down the natives; and this country must make up its mind to pay the whole ex pense of those troops. Now, he must reluctantly confess that, after the signal failure of so distinguished and en lightened a statesman as the present Secretary of State for the Colonies, there could be no hope that Ceylon would ever be well governed by the Colonial-office. He therefore proposed to transfer it, and the payment of the troops, to the East India Company; and by so doing he would give the means of reducing the vote before the House by another 4,000 men.—(Hear, hear.) Thus by withdrawing 3,000 men from the lonian Islands, 4,000 from the Cape, and transfering the 4,000 men of Ceylon to the East India Company. he would effect a reduction in the force on the military stations to the amount of 11,000 men. Next, with regard to the commercial colonies. He agreed with his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose. in asking where was the use of 9,000 men in North America, 6,000 of whom were in the Canadas ? These troops cost the country about 700,0001. a year. Now, since the establishment of re sponsible government the Canadas had become virtually independent. It seemed to him to be as absurd to pay for troops in the virtually independent colony of Canada as it would be to pay the military establishments of the independent colony of the United States.—(Hear, bear.) He should propose, however, for the present to keep garrisons at Quebec and Halifax, and would therefore merely propose a reduction of 5,000 in the military force of the North American colonies.—(Hear.) Of the West Indies, which contained 6,000 troops, he should say nothing at present. He had proposed last year to reduce the force in those colonies by 3,000 men ; and he still held the opinion that such a reduction ought to be made. Lastly, in Australia and New Zealand there were about 5,000 troops. Not one soldier was required in Australia, except on account of convicts. There was literally no one to fight with. It might be true that, in consequence of Colonial-office mismanagement, troops might for some time longer be required in New Zea land ; and on this account chiefly he should propose to leave 3,000 men in the Australian colonies.—(Hear, hear.) Thus he believed that, without any detriment to the real interests of the empire, the force in the colo nies might be reduced from 42,000 men to less than 22,000, with a saving to the empire in military expen diture alone of above 1,000,0004 a year. If this reduction were made in the force on foreign stations, then, as the number of troops to be retained would be much dimi nished, the question might be entertained of reducing the military force at home. He would not trouble the House with inquiring at present to what extent that force might then be reduced, but he would con clude with saying that, for the reasons which ho had stated, he would cordially vote for the motion of his Hon. Friend. Mr. W. S. CRAWFORD would not go into the ques tion respecting the reduction of troops in the colonies; but he would support the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose, on the ground that the number of troops at present maintained in the United Kingdom was unnecessary and improper. He understood the Secretary at War to say that 52,000 men were required to protect the United Kingdom. In his (Mr. Crawford's) view, it was inconsistent with a free constitution that a standing army of that extent should be maintained to keep in subjection a free people. It seemed to him a proof of misgovernment.—( Hear.) If they extended the franchise and pursued a system of just legislation, then the army might be reduced, but all efforts in that direc tion would be vain till the people regarded the Govern ment not as their oppressors, but as their friends. Mr. COBDEN said he had been delighted to hear the tendency of the remarks of Honourable Members during the discussion, and by the constant allusions which had been made to the colonies, for he believed they were the pivot on which the whole system of re trenchment turned. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary-at-War had alluded to something he (Slr. Cob den) had stated on a former occasion with respect so our troops in Canada. What ho said ‘vos, that before the rebellion in that colony we had only 4,000 men there, but that they had been augmented on the breaking cut of the rebellion, and, as had occurred in all similar cases, had not since been reduced. Their numbers were just double now of what they had been before the rebellion, and that was a sufficient argument to show that in all cases where an augmentation of our establishment took place by sea or by land, we never went back to the numbers before the augmentation became neces sary. They were told that the troops were required on account of our domestic condition. He must confess he had heard with very great regret the remarks of the Right llon. Gentleman the Secretary-at• War, with respect to the necessity of keeping troops at home for the purpose of keeping down the people. That was the first time such an object had ever been avowed by any member of any Government, for it had hitherto been always denied that _troops were kept to repress the people.—(oh, oh.) It was a very alarming and melan choly state of things that it should be avowed in 1849 that we kept up a lar g e force to keep down the people of England—Englishmen, who had been always considered peculiarly suited for self-government here or abroad, and who had always claimed the principle of being governed by the civil power.—(Cries of " Oh,oh!") The Right Honourable Gentleman distinctly avowed that object. He said it was for the purpose of keeping peace among the people. Some remarks had been made as to the state of the manufacturing towns. He admitted that the mayors and magistrates of some large towns had sent for some troops last year, but there must be some fault in the system when such a rein forcement to the civil power was called for. He thought, on behalf of the middle classes, that those who were responsible for the government of the country should introduce some large measure with respect to the working classes, to bring the two into harmony, and that they should, by bringing the latter within the pale of the constitution, take away the disaffection and discon tent which induced the necessity for employing troops. With respect to the immediate vote before the House, it must be borne in mind that troops had become really much more efficient than they had been a few years ago. A great authority—General Gordon—stated to the Committee of 1844 that one thousand men could be sent from London to Manchester in nine hours, and would arrive there fresh as when they started; whereas, before the introduction of railways, they would have taken 17 days for the journey, and would have arrived fatigued and exhausted. Though he did not admit the necessity of repressing the people by armed men, railways had given tenfold force to their military establishments, and if they were necessary the number of men might bo reduced, and yet the same amount of force be available. Ho maintained, however, that in large or small towns peace might be maintained by the civil power, if Government would sanction a mode by which an organized body—not of military or of national guards—but of special constables, could be al ways in readiness to assist the magistrates. Why not imitate America? New York was larger than Liverpool, and yet there were neither soldiers nor barracks there, and the peace was kept by the police. There was a fluctuating population of English, Irish, and foreigners, and he contended that what could be done at New York with Englishmen could bo done with English men at home. The Honourable Member for West Surrey (Mr. Drummond) had made some remarks which he would not have referred to but that they might pro duce ill feelings elsewhere. The Hon. Member had called the French tigers and monkeys, fit for exhibition in the Zoological Gardens. Perhaps the French might not know that the Hon. Gentleman was a privileged Member of the House, and that he was so fickle in his aversions and likings that they might find him next week calling them doves and lambs. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War referred to the state of the continent as a reason for a large standing army. lie would admit, if the Right Hon. Gentleman pleased, that the French and the other continental :nations were going to fight with each other. But that was not the question for us to consider with respect to our forces. What we had to ask was, if anybody was coming to fight with us? Was there a symptom or a tendency of such a disposition on the continent? Such being the case, and having no enemy he knew of to dread, he thought there was no necessity for keeping up a larger military establishment than had been found necessary in 1835 and 1836. Lord JOHN RUSSELL—The Hen. Gentleman, the Member for the West Riding, who has just spoken, has mentioned two points with respect to the estimates, the first with respect to the forces in Canada; the second with respect to the forces in this country. As regards our forces in Canada, it may be quite true that they are nearly double as great in amount as they were previous t h o ut tile m breaki ng thatout o w f h t e h n e trlita•bteirleiobnelliinon in Canada, I could not help being somewhat uneasy o f n mo d count of the smallnese of the force we had s b ta i i s o a n v e ed not e well with very great intrepidity; the rebels were a there.—(Hear , organized, and certainly did not make sue re sistance as had been expected ; and by skill of hear.) Those forces, however, our commanders and by the bravery of our troops, that 1r broke ko province;out the rebellion was happily put down ; but I should be very sorry, well disposed as Canada is at pre sent, to see any great diminution of the forces sta tioned in that country.—(Hear, hear.) As to other of our colonies, certainly there may be some in which re efotrocatimine o in ur th ca e lo n a u i m es be i r s thinlyt t h t m e less Om it was in 1835,--(3ettr, bear.) The nest point o d f ue o t u io r n tr m oo aY ps b;ebniutadle on which the Hon. Gentleman touched requires much a ing pensioners in subordinate situation% a n as carriers, more comment. The Hon. Gentleman objected to what messengers, Ske ,in the publi c departments; and he called the system of using troops to keep down holding out such a prospect after a certain number of good the peo;_le, and s till that the principle had been for years' service would not be a grea t i n d ucement for the first time avowed by my Right Hon. Friend the wen to enter the army and to behave well whilst Secretary-et-War (Mr. F. Mettle). Now I heard what were in it? my Right Hon. Friend said, and I certainly heard no- Mr. F. MAULE said the Hon. Baronet was p er h aps thing from him to such an effect.—(Cheers.) My Right not aware of the number of pensioners who were already Honourable Friend stated most truly that during the employed in the public service on account of thei r h av i ng past year there, had been many applications—the greater been eischargsd with a good character. Many were, part of them from the mercantile towns—not by the employed by private individuals, and every year he ' re military, but by the civil authorities, for troops to pre- ceived applications from pensioners to be exempt from serve peace and order.—(Hear, hear.) But were enrolment, on account of the 12 days' service which was those troops to keep down the people ?—(Hear, hear.) required interfering with the appointments they held. By no means. They were to keep down a certain As to the general question of holding out the prospect number of ill-conditioned and disaffected persons who of small places to them as a reward of good service, it wished to commit disorder, to promote tumult, and pro- was rather for the consideration of the Chrncellor of bably to gain an opportunity for plunder, and with whom the Exchequer than of the Secretary-at-War. it is a libel and a calumny to confound the people of this A vote of 19,0001. on account for superannuation al.- country.—(Great cheering.) The Hon. Gentleman lowances was then agreed to. asked why should not the municipal authorities have NAVY ESTIMATES. power to embody special constables to keep the peace? Mr. WARD proposed to obtain votes for the excess in They are at full liberty to do so. and may swear in special the navy estimates. constables tomorrow if they please, but it is atter they Mr. HUME protested against proceeding with so im have sworn them in, and wish to support them, that they portant a matter at this time of night (twelve o'clock). make application for the military in order to enable the The House had voted 20,0004. (tic amount of the esti , special constables to do their duty. Ia fact, the state of mate last year, for the expense for arming and enrolling society has changed from the time when every man was the artizans of the dockyards ; and the excess in this ready to arm himself, and to go out into the streets to item was no less than 52,000 L, the expsnditure incurred keep the peace of the town. The great mass of the being 72,0001. He requested that this vote might be people in towns are now accustomed to follow peaceable postponed until Friday, in order that be might bring the occupations, and to look to other forces to enable the subject before the House. peace of the town to be kept, and if you refuse them all Sir F. BARING was understood to say that the votes military assistance, and if they were to be harassed week could not be postponed, but, after week, and night after night, by being called out After a few words from Colonel SIBTHORP, to do the duty of special constables, it would give rise to Mr. WARD consented to take a vote on account, in great discontent, and to numerous complaints of the order that the Hon. Member for Montrose might have Government ot the country.—(Cheers.) In effect, there- the opportunity ho required. fore, when we call in the troops under such circumstances, Mr. S. HERBERT said be was anxious to set right it is not to keep down the people, but to defend the ma- an error which he bad inadvertently committed on Fri jority from the minority—(Hear, hear)—and to protect day night. when the navy estimates were last before the the great mass of the well-affected against the smaller House. He had received a letter from Mr. Green, of number of the turbulent—persons not well contented, the firm of Wigram and Green, stating that he (Mr. S. ' and boys, and others very often hardly connected with Herbert) was wrong in attributing the lines of their the towns, but who, if there was not some assistance vessels to any person but themselves. Mr. Green stated given to preserve order, would not only be very mis- that he had not borrowed the lines of the Inconstant for chievous, but commit serious injuries on private property. any of their vessels, nor had he ever seen the lines of —( Hear, hear.) I thought it necessary to defend my that vessel.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. S. Herbert) had Right Hon. Friend, and not only this Government but made the statement with the conviction, at the time, the general government of the country, from the that it was perfectly true. He had heard it from a naval statements of the Honourable Gentleman. (Hear, officer of distinction, who enjoyed the friendship of Ad hear.) Nothing can be more unfounded than miral Hayes; and he had heard the statement so fre the statement that the military force of this country quently asserted that he thought he was quite justified is maintained to keep down the people, and I am in mentioning it. H 6 was the more anxious to make this very sorry that the Hon. Gentleman, knowing as he correction as it was so greatly to the credit of Mr. Green must do the history of his country, should have lent his that he should build vessels that were liable to be taken authority to assertions which, if generally believed, for men-of-war.—(Hear, hear.) could do nothing but mischief among the people.—(Loud A vote on account was then taken. cheers.) The Hon. Baronet who addressed the House THE NAVIGATION-LAWS. (Sir W. Molesworth) pointed out many instances among Mr. GLADSTONE wished to know whether the our colonies where a reduction might be made in the Noble Lord intended to go into Committee on the naviga number of troops, and referred, among others, to the case Lion-laws on Friday? He believed the report on the of the lonian Islands, where he said the force might be resolutions in supply was fixed for that day, and there very greatly reduced.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to was one vote on which some discussion might take place. some of these there may be instances where too great a Lard J. RUSSELL said, that if the resolutions in number of troops are maintained, but lam quite sure my supply appeared likely to lead to any long discussion, he Noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies watches would postpone them and take the navigation-laws the anxiously for every opportunity by which he may reduce first thing. the troops, when practicable. I really think, however. The House then resumed, and the report was ordered when the Hon. Baronet made these remarks the object to be received to-morrow (this day). he had in view was different from the object of the Go- The Passengers Bill was read a second time and or vernment. We are in possession of a great empire, which dered to be committed. has been transmitted to us by our forefathers. The LARCENY ACTS AMENDMENT BILL. Hon. Baronet only thinks of the way in which it may be On the question that the Larceny Acts Amendment diminished. If you will only take away from what you Bill be read a second time, have, instead of occupying a larger territory—if Major BLACKALL said there was no reason for di you will only withdraw your commanders and officers— minishing the punishment in cases of larceny merely on no doubt your military forces may be made very much the ground that the commission of such offences had less, and, instead of 89,000, as proposed by the Hon. become more frequent than formerly. In conformity Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume), you may reduce with the wishes of some Hon. Members who represented them to 49,000 or 39,000.—(Cheers.) But then our ob- Irish constituencies he felt some desire that the present jccts are different. Oars is to maintain the empire we stage of the Bill should be postponed. have inherited from our ancestors in all its integrity.— Sir GEORGE GREY said that the Bill did not relate (Cheers.) If once you say your object is to diminish it, exclusively to Ireland, but unfortunately transportable to make it smaller this year than it was the year before, offences had greatly increased in that part of the United and take it away bit by bit, you may ot course go on Kingdom, and even in Great Britain they had mildly till you reduce it to the limits of this island.—(Cheers.) increased. It bad really become neaessara to make some That may be an economical experiment, but it is not one distinction between the lighter and the graver class of in which I should be willing to embark.—(Cheers.) My offences. belief is, if you give any signs of shrinking from your Mr. MILES would not, at all events, vote against the duty of preserving the empire committed to your protec- principle ot a measure which had received so much ten don. that though you may have no enemy now you would sideration elsewhere. find soon enough you had enemies who would demand Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said that such was the state something from you that you in honour could not grunt, of Ireland that the punishment of imprisonment could and the result would be that instead of such estimates not be inflicted with any advantageous t ffect. as those before you we should be obliged to ask for war The Bill was then read a second time and ordered to estimates.—(Loud Cheers.) be committed. Mr. MAITLAND moved that the following Members bo the Committee on the Registering Births, &c., and Marriage Bills (Scotland): —The Lord Advocate, sir G. Clerk, the Earl of March, Sir Henry Davis, Mr. Elliot, Sir David Dundas, Viscount Melgund, Mr. Mr. Solicitor General for Scotland, Mr. Forbes Mac kenzie, Mr. Cumming Bruce, Mr. Traill, Mr. Forbes, Mr. Duncan, and Mr. Smollett. Mr. LOCKHART objected to a Committee so selected, on the ground that it contained no Members for any of the principal cities or for any of the larger counties of Scotland. Mr. HUME hoped the Government would reconsider the names proposed on this Committee. It was very unusual that the Lord- kdvocate and the Solicitor-Gene ral should form a part of any Committee upon a Bill so much objected to as this measure was in Scotland. Mr. F. MACKENZIE observed, that the constitution of the Committee was a condition on which the Bill had been allow, d to be read a second time. Mr. F. ALIULE said the Lord-Advocate had left town on the understanding that the Committee awned by his lion. Friend the Solicitor-General tor Scotland would be assented to. Both the Crown law officers for Scotland were named upon the Committee because it was probable that they might not be in town at the same time, and it was uncertain which of them would be able to attend. Mr. lIUME had no objection Ito both those officers being placed on the Committee if it was understood that only one of them should be present at a time. He begged to move that the name of the Lord-Advocate be omitted, and that of Mr. A. Mastic substituted. After a few words from Mr. DuNcasz, The House divided, when there were— For Mr. Hume's amendment 4 Against it Majority On the question that Mr. Elliott be a member of the Committee, Mr. LOCKHART proposed that the name of Mr. Hastie be substituted. Mr. HUME recommended the Hon. Gentleman, after the result o the previous division—(A laugh)—not to press his amendment. ,Mr. WAWN complained that no Hon. Gentleman connected with the Free Church of Scotland was placed on the Committee. Mr. F. MAULE would undertake to say that the Free Church would be perfectly contented with the Committee as proposed. The amendment was then withdrawn, and the Com mittee, as proposed by the Solicitor-General for Scot land, was agreed to. On the motion of Captain ARCHDALL, certain re turns relative to the salaries, emoluments, and fees of clerks of the peace and clerks of the Crown in Ireland, were ordered. The House adjourned at One o'Clock. Mr. HU.S.iE complained that the Noble Lord had not fairly represented his Hon. Friend (Mr. Cobden). If the colonies got liberal institutions they would slot re•• quire troops. The Committee divided, and the numbers were— For the amendment 4O Against it Majority The vote was then agreed to. Mr. F. MAULE observed, that the Ordnance esti mates were now under the consideration of a Committee up stairs; but in the meantime it was necessary to have votes on account to carry on the public service. He proposed at present to take a vote for one-half the sum on each item, and moved that 1,800,000/. be granted to her Majesty to defray the charge of the land forces. Mr. HUME felt that the vote on which they had di vided was substantially a vote for 7,000,00 0 /. He could do no more than enter his protest; but he should not object to the votes which the Right lion. Gentleman now proposed to take. Colonel I)UNNE rose to call the attention of the House to the privilege granted to officers of tho Foot Guards of holding rank in the army superior to that of offimrs of corresponding regimental rank in regiments of the line, the licuterian-colonels and majors in the Guards being colonels in the army, Auld the captains, lieutenants, and ensigns, lieutenant-colonels, captains, and lieutenants in the army respectively, and further, to call the attention of the House to an inquiry whether there was anything so peculiarly onerous in the duties of the household troops as to justify the continuance of this privilege, which, by giving more rapid promotion to one branch of the service, insured among other advantages an undue proportion of general officers from these fa voured corps, to the disadvantage of officers who served in regiments of the line in every part of the world. It was necessary perhaps to explain that ensigns in regiments of the Guards had the rank of lieutenants in the navy—(Loud laughter)—he meant in the army, in the regiments of the line; captains in the Guards had the rank of lieutenant-colonels and field-officers were full colonels on service. Such a system was greatly to the detriment of officers of regiments of the line, because officers of the Guards became field officers after a short service, and were en titled to brevet rank long before the officers of other regiments. For example, Captain Harrison, one of the officers of the 24th Regiment, which had suffered so severely the other day, had served for 42 years on full pay, and had but recently attained the rank of captain, hereas in the Guards Colonel Stuart had become lieu tenant-colonel in 18 years. The Hon. and Gallant Member proceeded to adduce a variety of instances in which officers in the Guards had obtained promotion after a short service as compared with officers in regi ments of the line. Yet the captain in the Guards who became a field officer had no more experience than the captain of a regiment of the line who did not become a field officer. From calculations he had made, it ap peared that one in every five regiments was com manded by officers who had belonged to the Guardg, though, in proportion to their number, they ought to command only one regiment in thirty; and if the proportion of lieutenant-colonels maintained in the Guards were to extend over the whole army, there would be 2,000 colonels altogether in the service. Whilst expressing a hope that the matters to which he had referred would become the subject of investigation before the Committee on the Estimates, he wished to be understood that it was far from his intention to depreciate the character of either the officers or men of the Guards, who had conducted themselves well wherever they had been called upon to serve.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. F. MAULE, after expressing the satisfaction he felt at the manner in which the Hon. and Gallant Mem ber had brought the subject forward, stated that it was one which could not fail to come under the notice of the Committee on the .Estimates. Without intending to enter into any discussion upon the present occasion, he must be allowed so observe that he knew of many in stances in which officers who had exchanged into the Guards from the line had not been promoted to the rank of lieutenant-colonel as soon as they would have been had they remained in the line. The testimony which the Hon. and Gallant Officer bad borne to the merits of the Guards was fully justified by their conduct, whether in war or peace. Colonel LINDSAY, though prepared to meet the Hon. and Gallant Member who had introduced this topic, was willing to postpone discussion until the matter should have been investigated by the Committee; and he was convinced that the result of the inquiry would satisfy all unprejudiced persons that the privileges en joyed by the Guards were not as injurious to the lice as was supposed in some quarters. Mr. HUME said the privileges enjoyed by the Guards were viewed with dissatisfaction by the rest of the ser vice. Sir H. VERNEY observed, that if the Guards pos sessed privileges they also laboured under disadvan tages; for instance, a commission which could be pur chased in the line for 4001. or 500/. would cost 1,2001. in the Guards. An HON. MEMBER declared, t h a t whilst he had the honour of serving in the line he never knew that any feeling of jealousy was entertai rlee dby h t e h a a r t .) branch of the service against the Guards.--gi ar, After a few words from Major BLACKALL the vote was agreed to. The following vo t e s were then agreed t e : -86,000 /. for the General Staff, excepting India ; 47,000/. for the P u blic Departments; 8,0001. for the Royal Military College—[h. F. MAULE s tated that the new regula, • Lions respecting examinations at tois 111SWOUCtli would be laid upon the table as soon as they were agreedupon]- 9,000/. for the Royal Military Asylum; 33,0001. for Vo • lunteer Corps; 7,0001 fur rewards for distinguished ser vices ; 39,0001. for the pay of general officers; a sum of 28,000/. for the full-pay of retired officers; 200,0001. for half-pay and military allowances ; 22,0001, for fo reign half-pay ; 64,000/. for widows' pensions ; 48,000/. for the Compassionate List ; 17,000/. for the Hospitals at Chelsea and Kilmainham; 60,000 L fur the out-peu sinners. On the last vote Mr. HUME wished to know the number of out-pensioners who were enrolled ? Mr. F. MAULE could not tell the exact number of out-pensioners ; but l the number enrolled last year, con sisting of those above 45 years who were fit for service, was 20,000. Mr. HUME inquired how many there were in Ireland? Mr. F. MAULE said the number was 5,000. Sir H. VERNEY inquired whether the Right Hon. Gentleman had investigated the peesibility of employ- DISCOVERY OF A CAVE ON THE SOUTH-EASTERN RAILWAY.—During the operation of the workmen on the North Kent lint: of the South-Eastern Railway, when tunnelling under tae hanging woods at Charlton, near WoeMee, they came upon a cave of considerable dimensions cut in the chalk and flint rocks. A great quantity of sand has fallen at on end, blocking up the bide from which it has apparently been entered, and the workmen are now busily employed in shoring up a part of the roof of one of the chambers, the railway passing over its entire breadth. Four chambers have been dis covered, forming alternate recesses from the main cave, leading in a westerly direction. The roof of the cave is on a level with the line of railway, and the base about twelve to fourteen teet lower. The atmosphere in it is remarkably dry and pure, and presents a strange con trast with the damp and close atmosphere experienced in passing along the tunnel to the extremity where the cave bas been discovered. The men state they foun h da r knife and spoon on expl or i ng it, an d they turned t heir the tei discovery to good account o n Sunday, having lighted whole of the tunnel with c a ndles, and conducted visitors each T t isitnrs over the cave at the extremity, charging them d for admission. f 457, wrest Strand, The Animals' Friend Society, of to Mrs. Smith, last week charged Thomas Odell, h c South n wark Court, of No. 62, Cornwall-road., g at w t orked a horse which had be fore Mr. Seeker, with heaacvhn-shoulder in a loaded timber a bleeding wound waggon, the col ac:rnnscthiat.fing the wounds as the poor no was fined 10s. mad costs, animal pressed set meta. o r 14 days' imp ri r n On Saturday , in the Sheriff's C ourt, Mr. Commis sioner Bullock gave judgment in the case of " Briant v. plain ti Tho facts of the case are these: In /Counties plaint iff b o ught several shares of the Northern and South Yorkshire, Doncaster and Goole Railways, which were put up to auction at the Hall of Com merce, defendant being the auctioneer; but the latter would not give them up unless all the calls due upon them were paid up, considering that he was bound to ace them paid and duly registered. On the contrary, it was urged by Mr. Clarke, of Featherstone-buildinga (the plaintiff's attorney), that the plaintiff had com plied with the conditions of sale by paying the amount of the bid, and tendering the amount of the transfer; and further, that the purchaser was entitled to pay up the calls himself, and the broker was not responsible, as, by a late decision of the Vice-Chancellor, no sharehOlder could evade his liability. His Honour considered there had been no forfeiture of the shares by not paying up the calls after the sale, and found for the plaintiff for 13/. 10:., the atnount paid; but a second action for da magcl, for the detention of the shares, after a very long con ,id er ,tion, could not he sustained, after the plaintiff had recovered. in the first action the amount paid. I.ItEitooLYPHIC Ti PES.—The National Printing office of France has just published a work entitled " Chronology of the Kings of Egypt," by Lesueur. This is the first hook in which the new hierogl y phic types of that estabqqhrnen' L have been used at any l e ngth. They are said to b e extrrmp l y d e li cate an d b ea utiful —very au ' perior to anything put forth by the EegliA or German presses. The work is also toe first bearing the new formula used under the Repub:ic to distinguish a book Printe.t at the cost of the Government.—Athenaum. DEATH OF EARL F I TZWILLIAMS CRIMPANZEF4,—.• This rare animal died at WentWOrth House, during th e night of Monday week. It was brought to this country by Chall Cap , ai oner, and presented additionhAfritcoa,his ti , to his Lordship as a it f valuablerotuS ()umenagerie, e, evident the chimpan z •_ :e wou ld not but soon b „aw exist long in this variable climate, even with the greatest care and attention to diet, &c.