The Sun. — London, England, 1820-05-17 00:00:00

necessary of life, and the high rents, were not to l.c considered as a proof of prosperity, but solely with a reference to the compavative value of mo tley at the time. The tremendous amount of the Po o r Rates may be regarded as a cause as,well as an effect of the public distress ; their amount now was grew er than the expellee of the Civil and I.llilis tart/ Estahlishments of the country in the year 1792. Such was the amount and effect of taxa tion thaf it equalled the amount of one-third of every man's expenditure generally, and equalled one half of that of the landed proprietors. After dwelling with much force on these, and some other connected points, his Lordship proceeded to advert to the consideration of some of his sug gested remedies. lie first alluded to au ameliora tion in the state of the national currency, for no small portion of the evil was attributable to its deletiorared state. The next .point was the esta blishment of some system which would afford a permanent employment to' a great portion of the poor, and involve the means also of furnishing them with an independent subsistence. In this, after noticing some suggestions which had been made by individuals, the Noble Earl expressed his opinion that a leading and most beneficial expe dient would be the cultivation of waste lands; in that view he referred in the way of illustration to what was done or projected respecting the Forest. of Dartmoor. Aw;ther, or secondary expedient in this system. would be to provide the cultivat ing labourers with cottages. This may be done at a trifling expense. Another expedient would be to assign to those occupying cottages a por tion of land, which would go to afford them a sort flt independent existence. A system of this kind, his Lordship observed, was acted upon to a cer tain extent in Ireland, and found highly benefi cial. A system of this kind would tend to re store to the country the once valuable race of Yeomanry, so long its pride and best de fence. Another most salutary measure would be a more extensive encouragement of the fisheries, which afforded not only an ample article ut supply in the way of food, but an extensive nursery to our seamen. The too extensive use of machinery he seemed to think a consideration of .questionable policy, as it certainly went to de prive numbers of employment, and therefore went so far to aggravate the public digress. Ile next dwelt upon the calamitous effects attendant upon the great fall in the amount of wages, genertilly of late years, which evil was augmented by the Ilse i>> prices of all articles of the first necessity ; and entered upon some calculations to illustrate the point ; therefore, the use of machinery to an undue extent he regarded as extremely prejudicial. After glancing at some minor or auxiliary expe dients, he observed, that if their Lordships grant ed the Committee he should move for, all these suggestions could.be duly examined and discussed in detail ; and, after an eloquent peroration, in which he feelingly touched upon the present ex-, treme distress of so numerous a. portion of the poor,r classes, the Noble ,F 4 arl concluded by moving " That a Committee be appointed to consider of the practicability and the means of better pro- 1 viding for the employment of the Poor, particu larly in the manufacturing districts ; and to report thereon to the House." The Earl of LivsavooL rose and observed, that be was hilly aware of the vast importance of the various considerations adverted to by his Noble Friend, who, he was sure, came forward from the' ' best and purest motives ; but they were points which involved the principle's and origin of the . agriculture, the manufactures, and the whole corn 'tierce of the country. Many of these points there would be a future opportunity of discussing, but it would be candid towards his Noble Friend to say, that his views of most of these points were taken on a ground that he (Lord L.) could not give his assent to. There was hardly a point advanced by his Noble Friend, to which be (lid not feel obliged to express his most unqualified . dissent. The drawing of such a line of distinction between the agricultural and manufacturing inte rests was in principle most injurious, anti what be contemplated would go to change the whole s ystem u pon which these considerations had hi therto been uniformly regulated. With respect to the maunlacturiug interests, the superior ex cellence of the British had undeniably raised this country to a pitch of wealth, prosperity, and power, unknown at any former period ; and this prosperity of the manufacturing intereits had a proportionably beneficial effect, on the landed ; most of the property accumulated that way was ultimately vested in land. The agricultural in terests were as well protected by correspondent laws as those of the manufacturing, or any other. It was unnecessary to go farther into these to pics. He believed that every thing practicable had been done for the improvement of the fisheries, but it was questionable whether the supply should be increased without the certainty of a market for its disposal ; on that head, however, he should be happy to receiYe information from any Ilan. The principle upon which his Noble Friend pro ceeded with respect to many of the other points, was founded upon erroneous, and he feared mis chievous grounds. With respect to the culture of waste lands, he rather thought there could not be a worse way of employing, capital, especially (even if the money was to be had) if it came from the public purse. Broken up lands were gene rally found to be a dead weight upon the hands of the undertakers ; it was a most unprofitable concerts, and still more so in cases where the Government were to become a species of traders. —Our manufacturing preponderancy, he repeated, was the source of a great portion of our national power, and gave this country a decided advantage over others which naturally enjoyed much more fertile soils and better climates. The extensive use of machinery, particularly those so greatly improved by the genius and intelligence of a lioulton and Watts, contributed greatly to en hance that superiotity ; and judging most decid edly upon these various points, so widely different trout the sentiments of his Noble friend, he must beg leave to meet his motion, to which he could by no means agree, with the previous question. Earl bratsziore made a brief and general reply; mite's the previous question was voted by their Lordships, which superseded the Noble Earl's , mot it It. Adjourned till to-morrow (this day.) HOUSE OF COMMONS, MAY 16. _ MISCELLANEOUS. The SPEAKER informed the House, that he had received 9 second letter from Mr. Boucher, con taining the additional' names of !Gentlemen who w e re willing to act as Commissioners under the 4241 G.q/rge Leave was given to bring in a Bill to enable Mr. Tomkyns, eligraver, to dispose of his Collection of Pictures and Paint ings, and, the British Gallery, by Lottery. 'Lord 'TEMPLE presenteila Petition, signed by-upwards of 400 occupiers of lands in.t he County of 44tickingham, com plaining of tho distre_akrd state of agriculture. Mr. SMITH preseif,ted two similar Petitions from Newport .Pagnell which were faid.on the table. Mr. DF,NNISON presented a Petition, signed •by one Churchwarden, all the. Overseers, and a great number of the Guardians of the Poor, against the Newington Church Bill. Mr. S. WORTLEY presented a Petition from the Merchants and Manufacturers of Halifax, praying fur the repeal of the Tax on Wool. Laid on the Table. Mr. D. W. HARVEY gave notice, that on Friday next he should move for a return of the number of Writs of Error al lowed by the Cnrsitor dining the l as t three years. A new Writ was ordered far the Borough of Athlone, in the wont of, J. Mackliottick, Esq. who since his election had accepted the office of Escheater of Munster. Lord ALTHORPE presented Petitions from several parts of Northamptonshire, complaining of the distressed state of agriculture, which were laid on the ' l ' able . Mr. NEVILLE presented a similar Petition from certain occupiers of land in the County of l3erks, which was laid on the Table. Lord E. SOMERSET presented a Petition from the Wool len Manufacturers in the County of Gloucester, praying for a repeal of the tax on wool. Lord STANLEY presented a similar Petition front the Mer chants and Manufacturers of Berwick-upon - Tweed ; the Pe titioners stated that the tax of 6d. per lb. operated as a prohibition on the consumption of the article.—Laid on the Table. On the motion of Mr. M. A. TAYLOR, the Stage Coach Bill was read the third time and passed. Mr. urrt,t; I'ON gave moire that on Thursday next be should inahe it motion with the view of regulating the wages of Labourers. Sir 'l'. ACLAND presented a Petition from the Masters and Brewers of Tiverton, praying for some alteration in the Corn Laws. He presented likewise a Petition from certain Growers of Corn in the County of Devon, praying an inquiry into the state of those laws.—The petitions were both read and laid on time Table. The Marquess of TAVISTOCK presented a Petition from the Occupiers of Land in the County of Bedford, complaining of the distressed state of agriculture —Laid on the table. Mr. BEAUMONT presented a• similar Petition from the Occopieis of Land in the County of Northumberland, which was laid on the table. Sir .1. NEWPORT gave notice, that on Thursday the 25th inst. he should make a motion relative to the Taxation of Bills of Costs in the Irish Courts. On the motion of Mr. LIiSHINGTON, the House went into a Committee to consider of certain regulations relating to the Customs, when several resolutions were passed, and the House resumed. Mr. BROGDEN reported the Resolutions, which were agreed to, and leave was given to bring in a Bill founded thereon. FREE TRADE. Mr. FINLAY trusted, that in presenting a Peti tion from the Chamber of Commerce or the City of Glasgow, praying for a Free Trade, the House would allow him to make a few observations On the subject. The petitioners conceived that the present state of trade was greatly affected by the existing restrictions, and that their existence ought not to be made dependant on any relaxatiou of those subsisting in other States. The restrictions of which they complaiued had neither been est a . blistied by the present Administration, nor by their immediate predecessors ; but he must ob serve, at the same time, that when opportunities had offered themselves to throw the trade open, they had not been embraced. In the recent ar rangements which had taken place between Go vernment and the East India Company, our trade in the East had been placed on a footing full of restrictions, whilst the Atnericao - merchant, being under no such restrictions beyond the Cape of Good Hope, possessed very con siderable advantages over the . Brwsh trader. — It' would, in fact, have been impossible for the United States themselves CO have esta blished regulations better calculated in crease their trade, and to repress ours, than those which now existed in this country. This he would illustrate in a few words. Ssippose that an American and an English merchant, both resident in London, should receive at the saute time intelligence of some change in India likely to create a great demand for some particu lar-article. In such cases, secresy• and tiispaich were the two chief ingredients of success. The American would instantly embark the goods which he thought most likely to find a market, iu a ves sel of 150 or 200 tons, which would be sufficient for the undertaking, anti in less than a v nionth the whole operation would be e ff ected. What would be the case with the English merchant ? He would first- have to consult Counsel, to know what he bad a right to do. He must then apply to the East India Company for a licence for the ship, and, as they. never gave any for supercargoes, he must. address himself to the Board of Controul. He must then wait a whole month, and being at last informed that be can ,have a licence, might begin to load his ship by the time that the American set sail, In two months he might„be in allittlatioll to undertake the voyage, but even then he could not do it with a vessel proportioned to the enterprise ; he must employ one of 350 tons, awl would be thus at double the expense incurred by the American, besides his difficulties and loss of time. Notwithstanding the arrangement con cluded, he (Mr. Finlay) conceived that there were many points not given up to the last-India Com pany, especially as far as the circuitous trade was concerned, in which it was passible for Parliament to interfere, and open the trade without trenching on the privileges of that Company. lie knew that a free trade was represented as a fair theory, which could not be reduced into prac tice. But the principle was so important that be was surprized the Government had not taken it into consideration, and had n ot car ried it as far as it could possibly be done. The true principle on which our system had originally been established was, that we should have the means of bringing into this country, anti of carrying to others, as many commodities as could be respec tively consumed ; so that we should be able to supply Holland with the produce of France, as nearly as possible at the same rate as France could do it herself. He then adverted to the propriety of inquiring into the use made of Extents in Aid. He believed also that the Usury Laws were a greater restraint on the proper employtnent of capital than was imposed by any other system of legislation, and trusted that before many years all restrictions on that subject would be removed. He regretted that the President of the Board of Trade was not present, as he wished to throw out what he conceived would be a fair experimenvol the advantages of a free trade. Ile meant the removal of all restrictions on a few articles; He thought this would be•attended with considerable benefit ; it would be opening the ;loon to the establishment of a better system, which might be introduced by degrees, and would hold out an en couraging example to other nations. He then took a view of the situation of France and America,and of the facilities which those countries possessed to recover front their difficulties. He did not ex pect that England could - he replaced in the situa tion which it enjoyed some years ago, but. he thought that , not k% ithstanding the pressure of her taxes, it was still possible for her trade to rise above its difficulties, and to attain a high state Of improvement. He then moved that the Petition be brought up. Mr. BARING followed the Honourable Member through some of his observations. We had so many active competitors in foreign States, that it was necessary we should increase in diligence to sustain or res-tore our trade. He did not despair of the country being able to maintain her situa tion, and to enjoy a reasonable degree of trade and commerce. In cheapness of labour we could not expect to beat our antagonists, but we had the advantage in point of capital and materials. This advantage must, however, in course of time be lost to us, and nothing but the most indefa tigable diligence could delay that period. He had that morning had the satisfaction of attending a numerous meeting of ship-owners of the City of London, assembled in consequence of the late Petition presented to that House. .Whilst going with them over several points which he - had ar gued on that occasion, he had found that they agreed on every point except with respect to the Timber trade. They had no objection to the trade of all Europe being thrown open. He had experienced. what was generally the case, that when people came to fair explanation, they disco vered that there was but little difference in their sentiments. He trusted that the country at large would . reap considerable good from the liberal opinions which began to prevail. The Petition was then read, laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. CORN BILL. Mr. BROUGHAM presented a Petition from the OWners and Occupiers of Land in the several parishes in the county of Sussex, complaining of the great distress which they sus tained by the immense importation of foreign corn, and sub mitting to the wisdom of the House for such relief as it would think fit to grant. He should not pledge himself to support the prayer of the Petition as far as it went to demand the re 7 peal of the present Corn Bill, and the imposition of a gene ral duty on all foreign corns ; but he should be disposed to consider the subject of the averages, with a view, not to raise the importation price, hut to ascertain the manner in which those averages were taken; for it was stated that the mode in which they were now made, reduced them far below the importation price fixed some years since by Parliament. He therefore considered the question a fair subject for in quiry.—The Petition was then read and laid on the table. 'Lord MILTON presented- a Petition front certain Owners and Occupiers of Land in Yorkshire, complaining of Agri. cultural distress.—Laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. Lord MILTON then, after a short conversation with Lord Castlereagh, fixed his motion, for the Repeal of the Wool Duty, to Friday seinnight. CATHOLIC QUESTION. - - - - Sir H. P.ARNELI, stated, that as it was not probable that his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Grattan) would be able to bring on his motion respecting the Catholics ou the day fiXed'in his former notice, he had received instructions from Ireland to withdraw that notice altogether. A meeting of Catholics was to be held in that country, after which he ex pected to receive some communication which would enable this important question to be brought on before the end of the present session. BRITISH MUSEUM. Mr. BANKES presented a Petition from the Trustees of the British Museum, praying that the House would be pleased to grant them the usual annual sum for the support of that esta blishment.—Laid on the table. Mr. BANKES theu moved, that the annual accounts of the British. Museum, for the year 1819, and the estimate of the expenditure for 1820, and the sums necessary to discharge the same, be laid before the Honse.—Ordered. Mr. KEITH, from the British Museum, then presented the said accounts, which were ordered to lie on the table, and to be• printed. . Mr. ELLICE presented a petition from the Woollen Manu facturers of the town of Boyne, in Scotland, praying relief generally from the restrictions imposed upon the .trade of this country. This was,the first time he had to present a pe tition of this kind front a particular body of manufacturers, and he was convinced that the repeal of all restrictions upon trade could alone restore its prosperity. The petition was read and laid on the table. • . • MILITAtty ESTABLISHMENT. Colonel DAVIS rose to direct the attention of the, House to a subject, always of importance, but particularly so at a time when distress pressed heavily on all classes of the community. He threw himself on the. indulgence of the-House, and greatly needed it whilst undertaking to bring the military establishment-of the country b nfore its view. He felt, indeed - , that he laboured under a particular difficulty '''''''''''''''' events hall created so much alarm, that many Aiembers, if not.the majority of the House, however friendly to the principle of economy, might perhaps be disposed to resist a motion which they might con sider as tending to diminish the means of -main taining public tranquillity. As his sole object, however, was inquiry, he trusted that be should be supported in promoting that which could do no mischief, and might possibly be attended with some benefit. Whatever appearance the difficul ties of the country might assume, whether they took the shape of agricultural or commercial dis tress, their foundation was wasteful expenditure. It was this conviction which had induced him to look at the military establishment. He had de voted much attention to it, and the more he had investigated, the more he had ascertained that the most extravagant want of economy pervaded every branch', and that a Parliamentary Inquiry was re quired. As the assertions which be should make this night would probably be met by, counter-as sertions by the Noble Lord opposite, the only way for the House to come to a just conclusion would be to appoint a Select Committee, to inquire and report on the subject. He knew be should be told that the Committee of Financehad taken the Army Estimates into consideration ; but the subject was so important, that without wishing to dis parage the merits of that Committee, he did not think it possible, when they had such a multipli city of objects to investigate, that they should be able to enter sufficiently into the question of the military establishment. This appeared to be the more evident as no alteration had yet taken place in the system in consequence of any recommenda tion from that Committee. The persons appointrd to carry retrenchment and improvements into effect ought not to be his 11 , 10jesty',3 Ministers ; for as their influence was extended by the former state of things, it was not to be expected that they I should be disposed to adopt measures calculated to curtail it.: This was clearly exemplified by tits breathless haste with w,hich they had lately filled up the vacant office of Governor of Gibraltar, the most complete sinecure to be found in the list of sine cures. So much so indeed, that a former Committee had recommended its abolition. But scarcely lead the illustrious person who filled it breathed his last, than the same messenger who carried the tidings of his death, conveyed-the ippointment of Lord Chatham as his success mr, whose military character was filled up in the statement that he bad been Com mander of the ‘Valcheren expedition ! He should now point out the particular departments where he conceived economy might he introduced, and should conclude by moving that a Select Cott= mittee be appointed to inquire into the Military Establishment of the Country. The amount of our military force in 1787, exclusive of the army in India, was 41,921 men. In 1820, it consisted of 92,224, or more than double what it was at the former period. In 1819 the expenditure of the army had been 6,582,0001. a sum . which the esti mate for the present year exceeded by no less than 400,0001. What, he would ask, was tbere'iti the situation of the country to authorise this increase of expenditure ? He admitted that the feeling of the House might be in favour of retaining the present amount of our force, and therefore he should not embrace in his proposition this night the question of numbers. But Gentlemen must be aware that the same cause which had required an increase of the army, also required reduction of our expenditure.—(Hear !)—Where the Chaise cellor of the Exchequer had last year - proposed to add three millions to our taxes, he bed also called upon Parliament to declare by a solemn resolu• lion, that it was necessary there should be an overplus of five millions. Now, he wished to know, was such an overplus iu existence ? Had not the new taxes proved inefficient t How then was that overplus of five millions, pro nounced by the resolution to be so necessary, to be procured, except by retrenchment wherever it could be effected ? For he could not supposte that his Majesty's Ministers intended to propose any new taxes. It was with that view, therefore, and not from any party feeling, that he brought forward the present motion. He should not urge the question of numbers, though it was his own opinion that the tranquillity of the country might have been preserved without augmenting the army. The House would be aware that it was in Scotland that the most determined and active spirit of discontent l.rol displayed itself, and broken out into dangerous acts. The military force in that country had never exceeded 10,000 Men ; and yet that small force had been enabled to restore tranquillity, wilt the assistance of the inhabitants, who had enrolled them "Ives and taken arms in.their own defence. The Yeomanry in Scotlais,d amounted to 3700 men, whilst in Lancashire, the population of which was :qua! to that of the disturbed counties in Scotland, it con sisted of only 554 men. In Scotland there were four thousand volunteers ; in Lancash ire goat, si man. If the people of England had ctinielor ward as those of Scotland had done, there would have been no necessity for augmeutiog the army. and the public expenditure; • Th e re was a great superabundance of cavalry, and they were quartered in districts where they were not wanted. What occasion was there for a Regiment of Cavalry on the coast of Kent and of Essex ? He should be told perhaps that they were wanted to repress smugglers. But he could tell the 'House that they had nothing to do wids smugglirs, for whose repression a large naval force had been provided. In face, if be should propose a reduction to the amount of three regi' ments of cavalry, it would not he too much. But this was not at present his intention. In every cavalry regiment there were 15 dismounted ,nets to each troop. This Ministers called a great piece of economy, but he called it a great piece of ex• travagance, for those men were of no use what ever, being neither cavalry nor infantry. He cone ceived, therefore, that a reduction might be tuad C in each regiment of 46 dismounted men, elle Major, two Captains, two Lieutenants, and two Cornets, and the yearly saving on that single branch would be nearly 80.0001., whilst the cat!' valry would remain on as efficient a footing as it was now, for not a single effective man would be reduced. Two Majors had been nukuown in 01 4 army till 1796, when the activity of the war hod led to their creation. The same plea could not now be urged, and therefore the teductioe of one Major would be no detriment to the service. 1 -1 ° was aware that he might be represented as speak' ing against his own profession, and indeed he knew that if Isis object were attained, it would injure many worthy men, and amongst then ) some of his friends, but he was actuated - by tt sense of public duty which imperiously command' ed him to subdue private feelings. If his sugges' lion were adopted, each regiment would still con' slat of six troops of 53 men, with an est ablish' meta of three O ffi cers to each troop , which tbe Noble Lord would certainly not maintain was totj few. As to the WaggonCOrpe, he saw no u tilit9. whatever in keeping them. T he y were t m p lo y et ; during the war in carrying the wounded men an°, the baggage of the cavalry. Th ese regiments 01 cavalry made frequent marches, but now they di ° not change their quarters more than once a year; and their baggage might be conveye d at a cheapel e rate. In that manner, and by the red uct i on of th Waggon Corps, 10,0001. a year might be saved' the country. He proposed to consolidate the fantry on the same plan which he had recommen°, ed with respect to the cavalry, and this he ed would give a saving of between 60 and 70,0 0 e per annum, without making that arm of our f(ir c if less efficient. He next came to the Infantry St ° , 4 Corps ; two companies belonging to it, he nog% be told, were now employed in Canada or sor ci) where in North America in cutting a canal. 50 0 f works might be superintended by the engineers e, the army, and on that account it could not be ° he cessary that a most expensive co r p s should be kept up. Though that portion of our force! o, was ready to admit, was most useful in the r'',oo but that he thought, was not a sufficient reaL:9s, for keeping it up now that it had become atse'! An alteration might now be made—the numbe:ct, Officers .reduced, and a considerable saving; ed, while our force remaine d folly as efficien t . : z at the piesent moment. The mode of conduc"