The Sun. — London, England, 1849-03-14 00:00:00

=MEW sc. Earl 'ommuni- Aion hal which his anication dispatch ad been was re- io should lequer if Ennui of Irpuse of Viscount nish and wig••Hol 're exists ng to th• present Ind who d of hos he Ger )perty of hips, will hich the one of 3eived of Irish in this over to nt over, large a , en that n Scot• bed at butionst to Scot 4rs were illegally the Ex irnish s replied in Lon elled to ch were the-rent kFronb , take the isy, the 'ould be Baronet tablish paupers lad &so persons located ruled to afJrn3a' sated to . Bare' ►rimeet three r, from e inhu• &on. rbroath law.--* he Pro 3bureb- Elitchin bigh to Le same t is the mild b: •TStes . id been a 183 4 ion o f reof .01 -- pis' lositiort S. sa d ' I hale also readl ,erio o9 , iter 9 • year. set' 1839' vo lurch' reso' mak O. . ;eel the slightest scruple of consciemoc in contr:huting towards the maiateeance of a B-ptist, Wesleyan, or Roman Catholic place of religious worship, if he - had re ceived property subject to such a charge. Untoriunately there were but too many ways of avoiding a rate. It was necessary that parties should meet together for the per- Pose of assessing the amount of it, and a feeling was na turally generated in minds unaccustomed to view such Matters with legal precision that the making of a rate Was somehow a voluntary act; and this unsatisfactory restilt often happened—thet if the majority voted for no rate at all, then, having failed to do that for which they were met, they were held to have thrown away their votes, and the minority prevailed. But when marshalled With more tact and dexterity, instead of making no rate, they made a very small, and all but Ito evasive, rate; and the consequence was the the fabric of the church, unless saved by the production of more conclusive evidence on the part of surveyors, Was allowed to fall into a disgraceful suite—(hear, hear) 'ea state in which they would never for a moment suffer their own private dwellings to remain. At the san e time, no very great anxiety on this head could be ex pected to exist when a large preponderance of Dissenters Was found, and he had long thought it absolutely acces sary, therefore, that steps should be taken to put the Matter on a more satisfactory footing. Although he could not agree in the motion to abolish all church-rates, he saw no reason why the ancient mode of providing for the repair of the parish church should not be conti nued, in deference to all who partook of its advantages.— (Rear, hear.) There was a difference, however, in the ease of the Dissenter. Although he could not go the full length of concurring in their scruples, still he thought it impossible, looking at the altered state of the country, to continue any longer the pre leot system.—(Hear, hear) The system of church rates was one of great antiquity, and founded entirely on the common law, and was established when the whole body of the community were of one faith. It was im- Possible to deny that at present there existed large num bers who would not avail themselves of the ministrations of the Church; and, on the other hand, they saw large numbers of the Dissenting community contributing on an extensive scale towards the erection of other buildings for public worship, which, at all events, showed no re luctance to contribute towards what they thought deco rous and right towards the worship of the Su preme Being. From what source, then, were the funds to be provided? Some pointed to other church funds, but the result of debates which had taken place in that House had shown that there were al ready abundant objects for those funds in sup Plying the wants of spiritual instruction and minis tration, and he should therefore be very averse from diverting any part of those funds towards maintaining the fabric of the church. There were, no doubt, large sums raised by voluntary contributions, and many churches had been built by such means. But there were some who had such imperfect notions of duty, that, although desirous of attending worship in the church, they were most unwilling to contribute a fair proportion towards maintaining the fabric, and he saw no reason why these should not be compelled to pay their just quota towards that object. Without going into a long discussion, he should satisfy his own feelings by putting his views in the shape of an amendment to the motion of the Hon. Member. He would therefore propose to sub stitute for the words which came after "that it is the opinion of this House that effectual measures should be immediately charg taken for," the following words:—"dis ing persons dissenting from the Church, as by law e stablished, from contributing to church rates, and from taking any part in levying, assessing, or administering the same." What he meant was, that parties might have an e PPortunity of registering themselves as wishing to claim the exemption, but that when so registered they should be incompetent to vote for any chureh•rate, or any sub ject connected with it.—(Hear, hear.) If this view were carried out at any future time in the shape of a Bill, there might be a provision prohibiting such persons from Q ecupying pews in church. The difficulty which arose ,Was this: it might be said that a premium was held out to persons to declare themselves Dissenters. That, how ever, he held to be an exaggerated apprehension. He bad often known those who had refused to pay a rate unposed by the vestry afterwards come forward volun tarily to contribute, and amongst these were found a number of Dissenters.—(Hear, hear.) Of course they Would take care that there should be no more ex te in pore Dissenters for the purpose of avoiding a r ate • and the disadvantages, after all, of losing these lukeve ' arm Churchmen, who, for the sake of 15s. or 201. would register themselves as Dissenters, he, as member of the church, did not think of very great im- Portance. On the other hand, what would be the ad vantages of the system which he had recommended? He t hought they would be very great, for by adopting it they would at once get rid of all the heart-burnings, dis- Putes, and discussions which took place at the assess ment of church rates.—(Cheers.) Mr. HEADLAJI seconded the amendment, regarding 't as a satisfactory settlement of a complicated question. There we re large numbers of persons who entertained c onscientious objections to contribute towards the main tenance of the fabric of the parish church, and it would , rno longer possible to maintain that system. In the town which he had the honour to represent many Dis senters had contributed in a voluntary form that which they had refused under a compulsory system. He saw no reason, however, why those belonging to the Esta blishment should not be compelled to contribute, and he thought the Church of England had a sufficiently strong hold on the community not to be prejudicially affected by limiting the contributions levied for the purpose of Maintaining the fabric of the Church to those who did not choose to avow themselves Dissenters.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. RICE had listened to the speech of the Hon. and Learned Member for Oxford with great satisfaction, for it had relieved him from a very great difficulty under which he had always laboured in reference to this sub ject. He hoped the Hon. and Learned Member would follow up his amendment by a Bill. He would venture to throw out, merely as a suggestion, that a general rate tight be made throughout the country for the mainte Hance of religious edifices, the contribution to be applied to the church of the contributor. Mr. AGLIONBY could not say that the Hon. and Learned Member for Oxford had relieved him from any difficulty; on the contrary, he had placed him in a still greater one than before. The great objection to the re solution of the Hon. Member for Tavistock was that it w as too vague, and many were disposed to say that it should have been followed up by some definite or ape eifio proposal, by which means would be pointed out of 6 i l PPlying the defect that would be thereby occasioned in the funds for the maintenance and repair of the edifice of th e church. His (Mr. Aglionby's) desire was, that • such rates should no longer exist; but he certainly Contemplated the substitution of some other mode of Itaintaini n the edifice and performing the services of ' the Church. The Hon. Member for Oxford hail, how ever, taken the House by surprise, as he had proposed Ito amendment of the greatest importance, without 'laving given the slightest previous intimation of his in tention. He found there was something wrong at the bottom of his amendment, and that it would not give s atisfaction generally. Ile certainly was not prepared 'to vote for it, and was rather disposed to support the original resolution, and have that followed up by some s ubstitution. One objection to the Hon. Member for, thford's amendment was, that it would be a premium L earned dissent: but it had been urged by the Hon. and Gentleman that such an allegation would be a reproach to dissent; and he had followed it up by say ing that the Dissenters as a body were too honourable .0 take advantage of such a plea to escape the payment. I le add e d, that ha had known instances of Dissenters h aving refused to vote for a church• rate, and after aArds having made a voluntary rate among themselves for th at purpose. He feared, however, that the proposition dissenters, op e rate io this way, that many persons not being but members of the Churoh of England and l andowners, might pretend to be Dissenters, in order to get their land freed from this payment. It was urged as a ti objection that the parties had purchased their land at lower rate as being subject to that tax, but the objec tion would be still stronger if the Dissenter was allowed to go fre e an d th e Churchman still obliged to pay. F or is part, he thought there might be an amendment upon that of the Hon. and Learned Membir for Oxford— (Rear and laughter)—and he hoped the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would exercise some judgment and discretion upon it, now that he was in a position to turn those sug gestions to account, as a member of the Committee ap• Pointed to inquire into Church property. He reminded the House when some years ago a Noble Lard (Monteagle), then Chancellor of the Exchequer, proposed to the House a substitute for church-rates. by which they would relieve not the Dissenters alone, but the Churchmen also. He proposed that the Church property itself should pay the rates—(Hear, hear)—and that the Church should ob- Aain the additional revenues for that purpose by the en franchisement of all leasehold ecclesiastical property. The proposition went off, not because the principle was not a good one, but because the Chancellor of the Ex chequer chose to take down his books, and get his actu aries to make calculations by which the leaseholders Would be charged 50 per cent. more than they were en titled to pay.—(Hear, hear.) If that proposition were ,putt before the House in a ju st and satisfactory way, h e Thought those parties would be willing to accept it, and that it would meet the difficulty of the present question. If that were done by establishing an equitable valuation of th s property, the effect would be to set at rest the kresent disputed question, which had raised between tt-hurchnsen and Dissenters the most bitter controver sies, while it would give a largely increased revenue to the Church.—(Hear, hear.) He thought he bad in film suggestion given the Hon. and Learned Member for uzford a much better plan than his own, which would relie ve all parties, and enable the Church to repair and k eep in order its own fabric. He should be prepared at all times to give his best attention to any plan which ; W ould continue the maintenance of the edifice of the hurch, and at the same time relieve every man who bad a conscientious objection to the payment of these rates. Sir G. GREY hoped the House would not be led into t he discussion of a very intricate question on the present °teasion. The management of Church property was not " b `t question then before there. That had been referred to th e consideration of a Committee. He thought it W ould be time enough to discuss that question when they ad before them the report of that Committee.—(Hear.) it would confine himself to the two proposition s th en before them. With regard to the first he was not pre. p a red to give his assent to it. The Hon. Gentleman go t a t on c e the abolition of church-rates, but had Z u t indicated any substitute, and he had gone so far as say that no plan had yet been proposed that would e satisfactory to those who had conscientious objec tions or scruples to the payment of these rates. With Tigard to the amendment of the Hon. and Learned e mber for Oxford, he certainly felt prepared to admit with him that it was most desirable to put a stop to the ear.idal and the scenes that had taken place in populous 1 5 ) 4 tiblies owing to the contests between Churchmen and la "ienters.—(lJear, hear.) At the same time there wer . e Peat difficulties connected with it. Looking at the fai re of every attempt that had been made to arrange the I "eattou satisfactorily in that way, he could not help re- THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY. EVENING, MARCH 14, 1849, gretting that the Honeurnble and Learned Gentleman hadnot brought his talents and abilities to a better ac count than to present them with a reproduction of a motion which had been repeatedly submitted to the House by the Honourable Member for Finsbury, when he moved for leave to bring in a Bill to effect that ob ject, and proposed, at the same time, some system of registration and a declaration, by way of drawing the lino of demarcation between Churchmen and Dis senters. It appeared to him that ,such a measure would be a premium upon dissent, as it had been termed. He would not say that it would be done to avoid the payment of these rates ; but let them take the case of the north of England, i❑ which there were many Presbyterians mingled with Churchmen, with whom they lived in terms of iutimacy and perfect harmony, and who frequented each other's churches oc casionally. If such a measure were adopted, it would at once draw a line of demarcation between those parties; because if the one party found that by declaring them selves Presbyterians, and not using the Church, they should be exempt, they would throw the whole burden upon the others, and the landlord would ultimately get the benefit of the change. It would create invidious distincticns, also, in the letting of land; as ilthe Church man got it it would be liable to church-rates, and if it was let to a Presbyterian it would not be liable. lie regretted, therefore, that the Hon. and Learned Gentle man was not able to suggest some more feasible plan than that which he had submitted to the House. He could only reiterate the opinio❑ he had expressed on a former occasion, that it would be most desirable to apply a remedy to these scandals, although of late years they had been less frequent than formerly. If some means could be pointed out by which funds could be provided for maintaining the fabric of the Church, he should be most happy to give his assistance in adopting it ; but looking at the mode in which the proposition had been brought forward, he was not very sanguine that it con tained anything like a remedy for the existing state of things.—(Hear). Colonel THOMPSON said he had been instructed to support the motion of the Hon. Member for Tavistock, and he should shortly state the reasons upon which he conceived those instructions to have been founded. The instructions came from men of wealth and liberality un bounded—from men of great ability and intelligence— and be thought them rather ominous. He was told by those who instructed him that ever since the year 1836 they had in their own district practically abolished church-rates, and they said that the liberty which they had achieved for themselves they wished to extend to others. Then it appeared that liberty from church-rates might be achieved. But why were church-rates so loudly complained of? Simply because they were deemed an injustice to the Dissenters. In reply to that it was alleged that the Dissenters had purchased their properties subject to church-rates. But he would ask, had all the Dissenters purchased all the estates which they possessed? Surely some Dissenters inherited their properties, their fathers saying to them, " This church rate was a robbery of me—it was a robbery of your grandfather before me—it was a robbery as far as human memory extended. I hand down this land with a protest against church -rates, and I enjoin you to resist them to the utmost of your power." Under such circumstances it would not be denied that church-rates were a hardship upon Dissenters. In reply to that, however, it had been said, and often repeated, that church-rates were legal ; doubtless, they were legal, but that was not the question. All the heretics burnt in Smithfield were legally burnt. The question was not whether church-rates were legal, but whether they were just and expedient. In his opinion, laws which excited so much discontent could not stand, would not stand, and perhaps ought not tea' stand. Mr. HUME certainly had objected to placing the burden of maintaining the fabric of the:Church' upon the Consolidated Fund, although he thought favourably, upon the whole, of the plan submitted to that House by Mr. Rice. Regarding church-rates as a source of religious strife, he wished to get rid of them. It appeared to him that the plan of the Hon. and Learned Member for Ox ford would give security and satisfaction by giving relief to the Dissenters. Those who attended the public wor ship of of the Church of England ought to maintain the fabric of the Church. Lord D. STUART said it appeared that every Hon. Member wbo had spoken had admitted the necessity of making some alteration in the present state of the law regarding church-rates. He confessed that he concurred in a great degree in the views expressed by the Hon. and Learned Member for Oxford, because he was ex tremely anxious that Dissenters should be relieved from the burden and grievance of paying church-rates. He thought, however, that they would be hardly justified in abolishing the provisions for maintaining the fabric of the Church, without providing a substitute. Although there was a very general feeling abroad that the law should be altered in this respect, he believed that there were very few who would wish to overthrow the Church altogether. His Honourable and Learned Friend, the Member for Cockermouth, threw out a suggestion which he thought was good, when he pro posed that they should add some words to the resolution before the House, pledging them to find a substitute for the church-rates, which they declared ought to be abolished. He, however, confessed he did not much like to agree to an amendment that was thus brought forward without any previous notice. He had some idea of moving an amendment himself—(Laughter)—but he felt that it would not be fair for him to do so without giving the House notice of his intention.—(Hear, hear.) He suggested to the Hon and Learned Member for Oxford the propriety of withdrawing his amendment, when he would have no difficulty in supporting the original mo tion. If he should vote for this motion, it would be only for the purpose of opposing the principle therein in volved, and with the implied understanding that a sub stitute for these church-rates would be devised, so as not to leave the Church without any provision for its proper maintenance and support. Mr. C. W. MARTIN said that in the borough which he represented the re had been a struggle of many years' duration on the subject of church -rates; the Conserva tives considering it their duty to abstain from anything that might be supposed to savour of a surrender oC the principle of church-rates. The principal church in the town at length fell into so dilapidated a condition that one of the churchwardens undertook the repair of the building out of his own packet; his example was fol lowed by another churchwarden. It was then felt by the Churchmen of the town that they must either surrender the principle for which they contended so long, or allow the building to fall about their ears, for hardly any re pairs would suffice. Then a voluntary subscription was entered into for the purpose of building a new church; and the moment a proposition of that kind was an nounced, the list of subscribers was filled with conside rable alacrity, and they found no difficulty in raising 5,0001. or 6,0001. If the Established Church was to be considered one of the institutions of the country, then they ought to look about them carefully before they took any such step as that then proposed to them; fur if the principle of voluntary subscription were once adopted in a few places, as it had been in Newport, the example would rapidly spread. Sir W. CLAY observed, that the question was not as to the state of the law, but as to the justice of the case. Church-rates were just enough when all the people of England were of one faith, but there was a manifest in justice in taxing all for the benefit of some. The Irish got rid of church cess in 1833, and he saw no reason whpy the English should not get rid of church-rates. For his part, as a member of the Church, he was ashamed of being a party to applying for the assistance of the poor on behalf of a most richly-endowed Church, which com prehended the wealthiest classes in this country, as well as many of the independent portion of the middle orders. He felt it a high imputation upon the Church to which he belonged that the public were called upon to pay for washing the clergyman's surplice, and for coals for warming the church. He was ready to exclaim— " Pudet Lace opprobria nobis Et dici potuisse, et non potuisse refelli." He thought it disgraceful that the members of such a church could not find the means of maintaing its fabric. He would support the motion of the Hon. Member for Tavistock; for he felt it his duty to protest most strongly against the continuance of a tax which, while it was of no importance to the Church, tended to keep up a feeling of irritation and hostility towards that es tablishment. Mr. GOULBURN would remind Hon. Members op posite, when they talked of the Church being so rich, of the multitudes that hail grown up in this country who have been rescued from ignorance and crime by its in strumentality—he would ask them to show him whether the wealth of that Church was more than adequate to supply the wants of the people for such instruction? They were all labouring to enable it to impart the most general and efficient instruction, and yet some Honour able Members wished to deprive it of those means which were so necessary to effect that object. The land had been subject to this impost from the earliest times, was still subject to it, and could not be released from it with out the intervention of Parliament. If the land then was so subject, why was it now sought to relieve it from this impost more than from any of the other legal burdens which wero upon it? Baying said so much, let it not be thought that he was opposed to a consideration whether means might not be supplied by which church rates might be placed upon a footing more accept able to all classes. He had no desire to press upon any particular class of persons, or to exact taxes of any kind that were unacceptable to such per sons. It was, however, in his opinion impossible to listen to the debate that had taken place without coming to the conclusion that it would be most unwise in the House to give its sanction to the resolution that had been pro posed. They were called upon to affirm distinctly the principle that church-rates should be abolished. Some Hon. Members had declared that in voting for the abo lition of church-rates they intended that some substitute would be found for them. But if they put such a reso lution on the journals of the House that church-rates should be abolished, that was the letter of the bond, and whin they came to consider the question of a substitute, they would be told that their time was gone by, for they had already agreed to abolish church-rates alto gether. But if they did come to deal with the question of a substitute, what would be their difficulties? The Hon. and Learned Member for Oxford proposed to ex empt the property of Dissenters altogether from the burden to which the members of the Established Church were subject. Was not this opinion open to all the objections urged by the Hon. Gentleman opposite, and to which no person as yet had attempted to give an answer? Was it not impossible to accede to such a pro op f o a s i t beforeput suggestionst heu l l y i e n re th m e a s d h e a p in e resolution. whe Several n t " . as. ether merely the courso of this discussion. Some Hon. Members were disposed to sacrifice the property of the Church, and to augment the interest of leaseholders at the ex pense of those by whim those leases were granted. Now these were remedies upon the merits of which it was impossible to express an opinion, upon a mere resolution, without having all the details of the respective measures suggested before them. He was opposed to the con sideration of such an important question, unless it came before the House in the shape of a Bill. They could then see whether they could abolish the church-rates without providing a substitute. se, therefore, called upon the House to require a complete measure, with all its details to be made known to it, before it would pronounce an opinion upon this subject.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. BRIGHT rejoiced that this important question before the House had been so calmly and temp, rately discussed. It was admitted on all sides that it was ono which should be settled; and several projects had been thrown before the House with the view of leading to an adjustment of it. With regard to the project of the Hon. awl Learned Member: for Oxford, he must say, from his knowledge of the condition of the parishes of the north of England, that he doubted extremely whether that plan could be worked in such a manner as even to mitigate the evils which existed with regard to the question of church-rates. It would be a most difficult and invidious proceeding to attempt to separate the populations of large parishes, and say who were the Churchmen and who were the Dissenters. But no matter what plan was adopted, he submitted that until this question was ulti mately settled, the Dissenters ought to have an equal interest in the funds which the State lied intrusted to what was called the National Church.—(hear, hear.) After all the consideration he had been able to give to the subject, he had come to the conclusion either that the fabrics of the Church must be maintained by funds derivable from the improvement of Church property — and he believed that it could be increased four or five fold in value—or that the subject must remain as it is, and be the means of costinuing embitterment of feeling amongst Churchmen and Dissenters, until the Church people were forced to maintain their churches by volun tary contributions.—(Hear, hear.) In Manchester, some years ago, the most unseemly contests had been carried on in reference to the levying of church rates ; and the consequence was that the collectors of the poor rates had a column in their books headed " Church rate optional," and no man could say that the collegiate church of Manchester was at present in a worse condition than when there was a compulsory church-rate. In the parish in which he lived, Rochdale, it was found that a few years ago the churchwardens contrived to spend 700/. or SOUL a year of the parish money ; and it was more than hinted that a great portion of it was spent in " jovial living."—(Laughter.) The parishioners, however, thought it their duty to look after the matter, and,,the result was, they had reduced the annual expen diture to 150/. per annum, thus showing that there ex isted great abuses in the management of parish affairs by the officers of the National Church. In his opinion, nothing could be more pr•judicial to the Church than those contests which frequently took place in parishes on the subject of church rates.—(Hear, hear.) The last scene of the kind at Rochdale was in 1840, on which occasion there were about .12,000 votes polled. The confusion and tumult was greater than at any Parlia mentary election he ever was present at; and so violent and excited did the people become, that the vicar and the magistrates felt it their duty to call out the military to preserve the peace. The poll was kept open longer than it ought to have been, and the vicar marched through the town at the head of about 8,000 or 10,000 people whom he called his flock, who hissed and hooted in a manner which must have been agonising to the feelings of any respectable members of the Church who heard and saw them.—(Hear, hear.) Nothing could be more unfortunate than that such things should happen. The House was aware that several persons had such strong objections to paying church-rates that they sub• mitted to be incarcerated for long periods rather than pay them; and he knew that the furniture of a dissenting place of worship in the metropolis was every year seized for church-rates, and the congregation were obliged to replace it at considerable cost, yet they would not con sent to pay the rates from conscientious scruples. Now, these things occurring so frequently, could not fail to be injurious to the Church; but whether they were inju rious to the Church or not, he asked the House whether they were not injurious to religion?—(Hear, hear.) Men did not like to be forced by the law to do that which was against their conscience. —(Hear, hear.) He should give his vote in favour of the resolution proposed by the Hon. Member for Tavistock (Mr. Trelawny), because he thought it desirable that the House should express a clear opinion upon the question; and he also thought it would become the Government to bring forward some measures to settle the whole matter, by appropriating the increased funds belonging to the Church to the maintenance of the fabrics, which he should be sorry to see going into decay.—(Hear, hear.) Sir R. PEEL said the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down stated with great truth that this discussion had hitherto proceeded without any asperity, and with great moderation, and there appeared to be an evident desire on the part of the House to consider this important matter with calmness and deliberation.—(Hear, hear.) They had two propositions before them. In the first place they were asked to affirm a resolution which, in point of fact, was condemnatory of the existing law with respect to church-rates. Now it was easy to give ex pression to an opinion upon any subject by a resolution; but it was not so easy to deal with matters of a compli cated nature by a similar process. The introduction of a Bill upon any subject afforded an opportunity to Hon. Members of examining into and considering its details, and of forming a judgment upon the nature and probable effect of the measure. And by giving their assent to the first reading or the second reading of a Bill, they did not commit themselves to the adoption of it; but when a resolution was once passed it involved a pledge on the part of the House of Commons—a pledge which they could not readily rescind—to abide by the principle of that reso lution. The question before the House was a most im portant one, and had only been discussed for one or two hours, and he thought that without more mature delibe ration they ought not to agree to a resolution pledging themselves to an opinion which they could not retract without affecting their character for consistency, and which opinion they might ultimately find themselves unable to act upon.—(Hear.) Now, what would be the position of the House of Commons, supposing they passed this resolution? They would immediately pro ceed to consider the question by a Bill, and in case the substitute proposqd in lieu of church-rates was not deemed satisfactory, and they failed in passing. the Bill, there would remain their resolution in favour of the ab solute abolition of church-rates, and they would, accord ing to his assumption, have failed in carrying out a prin ciple which, in point of fact, they had pledged them selves to adopt.—(flear, hear.) The lion. Gentleman the Member for Manchester (Mr. Bright) admitted that the fabrics ought to be maintained, but vv hy did he not tell them from what source? Mr. BRIGHT—I did tell them. _ Sir R. PEEL—Yes, the Hon. Gentleman suggested that they ought to be maintained out of a fund to be created by improving the property of the Church; and there had been various other suggestions of a similar kind made, all of which amounted to admissions that church-rates ought not to be abolished without finding a substitute or them.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that the objection taken by the Right Hon. Baronet the Se cretary for the Home Department to the proposal of the Hon. and Learned Member for Oxford, had great force in it, and was conclusive against the adoption of that proposed; for he (Sir R. Peel) could not conceive any thing more objectionable then to call upon the parishes throughout the country to register the members of the various religious denominations resident in them— (Hear, hear)—to call upon the parishes to separate the churchmen from the other religious bodies in their localities, in order that the latter might escape the pay ment of a small tax. The very strong reasons which the Right Hon. Gentleman had urged against both the resolu tion and the amendment would, he bad no doubt, prevent the adoption of either by the House. A substitute for church-rates had been proposed some years ago by Lord Althorp. That Noble Lord brought forward a proposi tion for charging the maintenance of the fabrics of the Church upon the Consolidated Fund. Now, so far as religious scruples were concerned, he thought that tak ing the money for keeping the churches in repair from the Consolidated Filed would give to the objections of those who complain of having to pay church-rates much greater force. At present those rates were mainly paid by those who concurred in the doctrines of the Church —the burden was chiefly borne bi the owners and occu piers of the land, the majority of whom belonged to the Church of England. And if the charge was made upon the Consolidated Fund, it would be a common burden on the Dissenters and the members of the National Church. If he were called upon as a Minister to abolish church -rates, and he thought that he ought to respond to the call, he would have no alternative but to transfer the charge to the Consolidated Fund, but such a pro ceeding could by no means satisfy those who objected to pay the rates upon the ground of religious scruples, be cause a contribution on their part of a single shilling to wards the fund from which the charges was paid, would be as great a violation of those scruples as a contribution of 201. Then came another proposal—namely, that the maintenance of the Church fabrics should be left to vo• luntary subscriptions. Now he could conceive nothing would be more unjust than making it a discretionary mattar—leaving it to those who were actuated by a sense of duty, and trusting to their religious feelings without;any obligation. The Hon. Member who spoke last said that in Manchester the payment of church•ra:es was optional, and that the churches there were in as good repair as when the rates were compulsory. Mr. BRIGHT—I said that the Manchester collegiate church was as well maintained as when church-rates were compulsory. Sir R. PEEL thought the Hon. Member had included all the churches in Manchester in his statement. Mr. BRIGHT—No; I only spoke of one. Sir R. PEEL would not detain the House by attempt ing to solve the many difficulties which surrounded the question, but at once give it as his opinion that if the House of Commons, as a branch of the Legislature, thought that the question of church-rates should be con sidered with a view to an alteration of the system, let it do its duty, and bring in a Bill on the subject, and not commit itself by passing a resolution after, a few hours' discussion, the principle involved in which it might not ultimately be able to carry out.—(Hear, hear.) So far as they were Members of Parliament, he hoped that they would not hastily come to a resolution, the effect of which would be to exempt the land, and other property they possessed, from church-rates. What would be said of them if they relieved themselves from the burden ? If they did so on the ground of religious scruples, what guarantee had they that a similar claim might not be made next year for exempting dissenters from tithes?— The statute-law with regard to tithes and church-rates was nearly similar. The Hon. and Learned Member for Oxford said that by the common law the maintenance of the fabrics of the Church was a burden on the land. He (Sir R. Peel) admitted that there might be some distinction between tithes and church•rates, but he thought it would be a bad example with respect to the burdens to which the land was liable, under the common law to exonerate that land from these burdens, not by an Act of Parliament, but by a resolution passed by a majority of those who were landowners.—(Hear, hear.) In what state would they leave the law after they passed this resolution ? They would have virtually condemned it, and not have provided any other in its place. And before they had an opportunity of considering a Bill founded on the resolution, an increased unwillingness to pay church-rates would doubtless be manifested through-, puc the country, by those parties who already had au objection to the tax. They would invite opposition to it by adopting the resolution.—(Hear, ear, hear.) Was it wise on the part of the House of Commons to con demn the law without substituting any other law in its stead ? Yet they would condemn it if they agreed to the resolution of the Hon. Member for Tavietock.—(Hear.) With reference to the character of the House of Commons, he thought it would beim politic for them to condemn a law by a resolution— (Hear, hear)—and upon all the grounds he had stated he must deprecate sincerely the sudden adoption of the proposal of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite. (Hear, hear.) Upon one occasion the Irish House of Commons passed a resolution which turned out to be a very in convenient proceeding, condemnatory of the law under which tithes of agistment were levied. It was considered that any man who subsequently paid those tithes was au enemy to his country; and a Bill, founded upon the resolution, was afterwards introduced, but it was de feated, and that breach of the Legislature was conse quently placed in considerable difficulty with respect to its character for a consistent course of action. A similar difficult) , might present itself in the present case.— It was said that the fabrics of the Church ought to be maintained out of the increased revenues derivable from Church property, instead of by church-rates. Now, in his opinion there were such demands upon the Church funds on account of an increase of population, and the consequent demand for addition spiritual instruction, that no matter how much they could add to the Church revenues, the claims for spiritual instruction were such as to require the absorption of the whole of them.—(Hear, hear.) He was not one of those who was opposed to the redistribution of the revenues of the Church. He bad, he thought, given a proof of his disposition in that re spect, by haring made a divi s i on o f s i necures an d cathe dral revenues to assist in relieving the increased spiritual wants of the people.—(Hear, hear.) And his opinion was, that no matter what increase they could make in the value of the Church Property, by effecting im provements, there i would still remain demands upon it for addition spiritual nstructior.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped never to see the day when the gentlemen of England would consent to reli eve t h emse l ves f rom bur dens to which their estates were properly subjected.— (Hear, hear.) . He would not now enter i nto any d eta il s upon that point, but he intr ea t e d the House to reserve this important matter for more mature consideration than they couldgtre to it after suc h a s h ort d e b ate , an d, for the sake of its own char acter, not to take steps to night which it might be compelled to retrace from an inability to proceed.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. OSBORNE confessed that it was with surprise he had heard the Right Honourable Baronet the Member for Tamworth calling upon the House not to come to a hasty decision upon that questi on . I t wou ld a l most have made one unacquainted with what had been done upon the subject fancy that the question of church-rates had been brought under discussion for the first time. Why, in 1835, the Right Hon. Baronet himself said, " The question of church-rates is one that does not yield in urgency to any one that can came under the consideration of this House. Se.farets try question can be important to the maintenance of soci a l h armony, to blofut the to come to too Right Hon. the promotion of satisfaction amongst th e great b o d y of the Dissenters, there is not a single question,. except that of the Irish Church, which so presses for a practical and Bimamroendeitawteass afraid ettlementht.'—C House e was about a hasty a decision upon the question , why did he not b r i ng in a Bill to settle the question,,and so save their consis tency? He quoted those words of the Right Hon e ( Baronet, and called upon the House to come to some im mediate decision upon the subject. The Right Hon. Baronet objected to the simple form of the motion, and said the House would be bound by it ifit were agreed to. Now, that might be very good Parliamentary tactic, but it is not true. Only last session the House had voted that at all elections votes should be taken by th e ballot—(Cheers)—yet vote by ballot was not esta blished.—( Hear, hear.) Therefore Hon. Gentlemen need not be deterred from voting for the resolution on that ground. He did not think the House was bound to find a substitute for church-rates. As a churchman he felt very sure that nothing could be so much against the welfare of the Church as to continue the present system of keeping up the fabrics of the Church. The simple reason why the question did not press at present w as , that clergymen did not now press the law into force. I n Blackburn the Rev. Dr. Whittaker did not press the la w , and consequently there was peace in his parish, and the same wise course was followed by many of his brethren. When he saw members of the Church giving their thou sands and tens of thousands for the purposes of the Church, it was useless to tell him that the fabric of the Church would be allowed to go to destruction; and when he saw that the Church Commission could find 143,000/. to spend in the erection of mg • ht bishops' palaces, he felt ashamed that his Dissenting brethren should be called upon to contribute their mite towards the repair of the fabrics of the Church. When he heard the arguments which had been used against the motion, he almost fancied that the Church could not be founded upon a rock, but upon sand. He would first vote for the motion, and if that were lost, he would then give his vote in favour of the amendment of the Hon. Member for Oxford, on the principle of his willingness, if he could not get what be wanted, of taking what he could get. Mr. GLADSTONE said the Honourable Member for Middlesex had very frankly avowed that he would give his vote for the resolution, without the intention of pro viding a substitute for church-rates—that he would leave the fabric of the Church to shift for itself.—(No, no.) The Hon. Gentleman had said so in so many words. He said, to leave the fabric of the Church to the voluntary contributions of the people would be per fectly satisfactory. In that the Hon. Member was per fectly consistent ; but he was the first who had given expression to the opinion that it was the duty of the House of Commons to abolish the ehurch.rate, but that it was no part of the duty of the /louse to find a substi tute. They could have no reason for complaint against all who agreed with the Honourable G entleman voting for the resolution, but they would have grave reason to complain of all who voted:for it who were of opinion that some substitute for church-rates ought to be found. What had fallen from the Right Honourable Baronet the Member for Tamworth was not to be gainsaid, and there was no inconsistency whatever between the quoted speech and the sentiments he had given utterance to that night. The Hon. Gentleman had confounded the two courses, proceeding with expe dition and proceeding by abstract resolutions. The affirmation of abstract resolutions did not advance a question a single step—indeed, it was always the slowest method of proceeding with any question—and therefore he hoped the House would have too much respect for itself and the country to take such a rash step upon a question of so much importance. He felt as strongly as any one the desire that the que s tion should be settled as speedily as possible. The evils attending it were eno rmous. They had deviated in practice from the ori ginal principle and intention of the law. That intention was not to impose upon any one an uncompensated burden while every person in the community was to be compelled to pay his quota for the main tenance of the fabric of the Church, every one was to be entitled to go to the churchwarden and demand space in the church for the purpose of worshipping his Maker. But when they saw the way in which the floors of the churches, especially in large towns, were monopolised by Pews for the wealthy ; when the poor working man was, as it were, in jealousy excluded ; when it appeared that he was called upon to go to church only to be branded with his inferiority, it was clear the law was in a very unsatisfactory state, and that it was their duty to give their consideration to any plan that would extricate them from the difficulty. While he would vote against b ot h t h e m otion and the amendment, yet if the Hon. Member for Oxford would embody his plan in a Bill, he should not think himself entitled to vote against its introduction. It would only be fair to give him the opportunity of laying his plan on the table of the House, because, although it was liable to many objections, still those objections were not so insurmountable as to preclude all hope of arriving at a satisfactory settlement. For the dignity of Parliament he trusted they would do nothi ng w h atev er upon that occasion. Their giving their consent to an abstract re solution would only remain as a monument of their hasty conduct. Lord J. RUSSELL—The Eon. Nfember for Middle sex gave the House rather an unsatisfactory reason for proceeding by resolution, in stating that last year we came to a resolution in favour of the ballot; for the con sequence of that is, that there is en the journals of the House a resolution in favour of the ballot, but no one step has yet been tak en i n th a t di rec ti on , and the probability is, that were a Bill b roug h t i n on the subject, in some stage or other there would be a majority against it.— (Hear, hear.) Thus there would be a resolution in fa vour of the ballot, and a decision of the House against it. —(Hear, hear.) I c annot, therefore, think it desirable to agree to the present resolution unless the House has made up its mind that there should be a total abolition of the church -rat e s, without any provision for the building and repair of churches. I certainly should think that it immediately abolishing House were r e ady to pass a Bill abolishing church-rates, it would not be a matter of very great consequence whether the House proceeded by re solution i n th e fi rs t i ns t anc e, or by motion to introduce a Bill. But I cannot believe that the _House has mad e u p its mind to that course.—(Cries,of " Hear, bear.") I quite concur in the observations . made as to the evils of the church-rates as at present existing. I have more than once assisted in plans intended to produce a better mode of providing for the objects for which church -rates are requir e d, an d I s h o uld be very glad now if any plan were before the House by which the objections stated against the church-rates might be got rid of. With re spect to what has fallen from the Hon. Member for Manchester, I think he was, to a great degree, justified in his description of the disturbances and contested elec tions in connexion with c hurch-rates, and the ho o ti ng and hissing at clergymen which he said took place, and were a disgrace not only to the law as now exi s ti ng, b ut reflected bl em i s h on all professing Christianity. I think the plan Lord proposed by L Althorp, of placing the pro v i s i on o f maintaining the fabric of the Church on the Consolidated Fund, would have proved a remedy for these public disputes and contests; but although that remedy would have been sufficient for the prevention of such squabbles, it soon became ob v i ous that the Dissenters felt its strong an objection to rates imposed in that form as in any other, and we should have had continual dissension in this House and the country as to whether that tax should be imposed or continued. —(Hear, hear.) It certainly was not worth while to get rid of one cause of dissension and to substitute another. Well, we proposed to defray the maintenance of the fabric of the Church out of the funds of the Church, and an inquiry took place; but from subsequent investigation and experience I do believe that any funds that may be made available for the purposes of the Church w ill b e required for that subdivision of parishes to which the at tention of the House has been directed, and for the ex tension of spiritual instruction.—(Hear, hear.) I quite agree with the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, that it is very much to be lamented that in many o f our churches in this metropolis and in the great t owns , t h e whole space is occupied with pews—(hear, h ear )—by porous who two Ole to pay considerable sums for their seats in the church, and who appear there respectably dressed ; making it difficult for others to obtain places, and thereby there is almost a practical exclusion of the poorer classes.—(Hear, hear.) That, I agree with him. is a great misfortune ; but the remedy for that evil would not be by abolishing church-rates, but by apply ing the funds the Church may be found to posteas in order to afford more room and better means by which those classes may be able to attend Divine worship.— (Hear, hear.) Now, agreeing that it is desirable, if a mode could be pointed out, to make other provision with respect to the repair of churches, I must say that I do not concur with the Honourable Member for the Tower Hamlets (Sir W. Clay) and others who have spoken, who said they really felt ashamed, as members of the Church, that these sums should be collected in the shape of church-rates, from persons who dissent from the Church. In the first place Ido not feel that there is any shame on that account, because it is obvious that whether with regard to the person who has bought land he has bought it subject to this charge—(hear)—or whether with regard to the occupier holding under that person, he has probably, before agreeing to pay his rent, calculated how much will be the charge for the poor-rate, what he will have to pay for highway-rate, and what for church-rate, as part of the outgoings, by which his rent would be diminished—(Hear, hear)—and therefore I cannot think that there is any injustice in the demand made upon him for the church-rate.—(Hear, hear.) But neither can I agree that the Established Church is a benefit solely to those who belong to it.—(Hear, hear.) I have always considered, omitting the point of the par ticular form in which church rates are levied, which is ~ p en to great objection, that the general ground upon which church-rates can be justified is,:that an Established Church, and the Established Church of this country in particular, is not a benefit solely to those who belong to it, but is a great tribute and a great homage on the part of the Legislature—(Much cheering, in which; the: next few words of the Noble Lord were inaudible)—and that the country would not be benefited, would not be improved, but would be degraded by its abolition.—(Cheers.) If that were not so, I know no argument for the abolition of church-rates that would not be equally good for the abo lition of tithes. If it is not true that the maintenance of the Church is for the benefit of the whole community, I know not how any of these compulsory charges can be 111 justified.—(Hear, bear.) Then, I say, it is very dan gerous to assent to a proposal of this kind, because ' while some argue that church-rates are a great practical evil, and that in order to prevent dissensions and unseemly quarrels, you had better put an end to these rates, others contend that in point of principle they are not to be justified, and that you should proceed at once to abolish them for the sake of relieving all who dissent from the Church from a compulsory payment. I say that this last argument has in it much more than appears at first sight. —(Hear, hear.) And therefore I should be sorry on every account to agree to a resolution of the kind pro prosed by the Hon. Member (Mr. Trelawny). If any Member shall ask leave to bring in a Bill proposing any substitute for church-rate, I certainly should not oppose the introduction of it. I could not vote for such a mea sure as the Hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Wood) pro poses; I opposed it when brought ferward by the Hon. Member for Finsbury. I think the reasons stated by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) are conclusive against it.—(Hear, hear.) I must oppose this resolution as dangerous upon principle, and leading to consequence which I think to be deplored.—(Hear.) Mr. G. THOMPSON complained of the most dis couraging and significant speech of the Noble Lord; one more calculated to chill the hearts of those who were seeking to be relieved from these unjust impositions could not have fallen from the Treasury bench.—(Hear, hear.) The resolution proposed by the Hon. Member (Mr. Trelawny) only pledged the House to adopt " effec tual measures" for the abolition of a grievance; and, when that resolution was passed, any Member migt sug gest an equitable substitute for this rate. That being so, surely more encouragement might have been ex pected from that Treasury bench; for there voted for leave to bring in a Bill to abolish church-rates and to make other provision for the maintenance of the sacred edifices of the country—(Hear)--the present Chancel• for of the Exchequer, Foreign Secretary, Home Secretary, and President of the Board of Control, besides the Under- Secretary fbr the Colonies, the Secretary to the Admi ralty, the Secretary for Ireland, and several others, now members of the Government.—(Hear, hear.) If there were not now Dissenters incarcerated for church-rates, nor those disgraceful scenes to which reference had been made, it was because there was a disposition to provide the church funds by means more in accordance with the feeling of the people; there was no diminution in the hostility that ten or twelve years ago was manifested to this impost. On the contrary, every hour that the mea sure now proposed was delayed there was a strengthen ing of hostility to the Establishment; and it would one day compel Parliament to sweep away church-rates and other ecclesiastical imposts. No substitute would be ac cepted by the Dissenters unless it freed them entirely from the liability to keep the churches in repair. Mr. HENLEY believed that the cause of the altered state of matters in the country in relation to church-rates was, that the law had been settled by the proper tribunals and when the law was settled and known, the people of England were inclined to obey it. He begged to thank the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) for his manly decla ration.—(Cheers.) It was difficult to avoid contrasting it with the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr• Gladstone.) Both agreeing that a large proportion of the floors of our churches were occupied so as to exclude a great portion of the people from them; the Noble Lord said the remedy was to increase the church accommo dation; while, as far as one could collect the sentiments of the Right Hon. Gentleman, he was ready to support the motion of the lion. Member for Oxford (Mr. Wood), and by way of opening the churches relieve Disenters from paying church •ra.tes. Mr. GLADSTONE dissented from this statement. Mr. HENLEY—The. Right Hon. Gentleman said he would support such a Bill, and it followed his declara tion about the floors of churches.—(No, no.) Well, if he (Mr. Henley) had misunderstood the Right Hon. Gentleman, of course he would pursue the remark no further.--(Hear, hear.) As to the plea of conscientious objection, how far was it meant to allow that? Many had religious scruples about carrying on war; were they to be relieved from maintaining the army and navy 2 (Hear.) We should find conscience very much en larged if those pleas were admitted; we should soon get no taxes at all.—(Hear, hear.) Did any of the gentle men who objected to pay church rates ever say to their landlord,—" I will pay you so much more rent if you will pay the church-rate?"—(A laugh.) The Hon. Mem ber for Oxford (Mr. Wood) said that there would not be the same objection to pay if the payment were volun tary; but surely conscience would just as much object in that case.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. COBDEN hoped that the opinion which the Hon. Gentleman had just expressed with regard to Church merr in this country did not apply to Oxfordshire. He said there were Churchmen who would claim exemption from the payment of church-rates because they had con scientious scruples against them, and that therefore the fabric of the church would not be supported at all, be cause no one would pay the tax. (Mr. HENLEY—" No, no!"] He certainly understood the Hon. Gentleman to say that if Dissenters were allowed to be exempted from payment of church-rates there was such elasticity of conscience in the country that nobody would pay the tax. He therefore thought he had not misrepre sented the Hon. Gentleman; and he repeated, that he hoped he did not on this matter truly represent the con science of Oxfordshire. He began his speech and ended it by complimenting the Noble Lord at the head of the Government; but, if the Noble Lord had pleased the Hon. Gentleman and those around him on this point, he must be prepared to please them on a great many other questions, because he (Mr. Cobden) thought it was likely he would lose some of the approbation of those who bad formerly been his friends.—(Hear, hear.) The lion. Gentleman stated that the law had now defined the character of church-rates, and he went on with a tri umphant air, as if he was conscious he had the strong arm of the law on his side, and was prepared to bring down its might on those who were not prepared to pay. But he counted without his host. It was true the courts had decided that the minority could impose a rate; but it was also decided that the majority could say how much the rate should be.—(Hear.) In Rochdale a meeting was called lately to impose a rate, and the church was filled with people almost to a man opposed to church-rates. It was explained to them that they must levy a rate, but it was also explained that they had the power of fixing the amount. One of the opponents of the rate proposed a farthing in the pound, because, as was stated, it could never be collected. They all held up their hands accordingly for a farthing in the pound; but they had never been able to collect it ; indeed, it was not worth collecting.—(Hear, hear.) This question, after all, resolved itself into one of pounds, shillings, and pence. It had been made a money question throughout; and he was not inclined to let this occasion pass without reminding the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire that they had had it from both sides of the House, from his friends around him as well as from every other part of the House, that these church-rates were an ancient charge upon the land—(Hear, hear)—that it was not a local tax pressing upon the present generation as an ex clusive burden, from which the land should be relieved. —(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Cobden) couldeiot deny that the church-rate was an ancient burden on property ; but ho did not put it along with tithe. Tithe was a rateable property, but church-rate was a variable tax.—(Bear, hear.) Still, he was prepared to admit that it was a charge on property ; but it was a different thing to put it on the Consolidated Fund and to re move the church-rates from Dissenters, on the ground of conscientious scruples. These rates were originally made for the purpose of maintaining the Christian re ligion, for supporting the church in which the Christian religion was to be taught. But what was the ground of exemption for Dissenters ? It was that, being Chris tians, but having a different form of doctrine and prayer from the Christian church that was established, they claimed to be exempted from paying for the support of these churches, because they had their own places of worship to maintain for themselves.—(Hear, hear.) In that sense it was not an exemption from church-rates for the support of the Christian religion; it was merely that they should not be compelled to pay two rates—(Hear, hear) —to support their own place of worship and yours also. The great difficulty in the debate had been—how to find a substitute for church rate. The Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) had told them, that if some Member would bring forward a proposition for raising the rate in another e way he would give it his best consideration. Now, had proposed Gentleman the Member for the city of Oxford _ad proposed a plan by which the money coul l d d b b e e r b a r l o se ug d ht the only just and consistent plan that cou Church of England, and excluded forward—he left it to be ra l i a se d d ed by was the proper way of settling this question. As a Dissenters. That England, to ask it from Dis inemthbeerdsiffiofeutlhtye pay his own church-rate, and Dis senters at all.—(Hear , In the manufacturing districts of raising these rates? d h the majority of the churches were supporte on t e vo luntary of the Church of he was prepared to h er er t e he w r a e s Was only Quo church (the collegiate church) that was supported by church-rates. All the others, numbering from thirty to forty, were maintained not by church-rates, but on the voluntary system.—(Hear.) There was, in fact, no dif ficulty about the matter; there was no necessity for any registering or classifying. Where men went to church they would willingly pay for its support.—(Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) had told them, that the people who monopolized the churches belonged to the middle classes. There was no doubt that they saw few poor people—fewer than he would like to see— in the church—(Hear, hear)—and he thought the libe rality of sentiment the Right Hon. Gentleman had shown would not stand less favourably before the country be cause it had met with a sneer from the Hon. Member opsosite (Mr. Henley). The people. then, who attended church, were just the very class who could pay for the fabrics of their churches.—(Hear, hear.) The Ho n . Gentleman (Mr. Henley) insinuated that the rates would not bo paid if this reoposal was carried; but, if there was not religion, there was a point of honour at all events among men that would lead them to be ashamed to see Dissenting chapels well maintained, and their own churches going to decay. He repudiated the senti ment of the Hon. Gentleman. He thought there was no danger whatever of Churchmen shrinking from the duty of supporting their own places of worship if they put the church•rates on the voluntary principle; the churches would be as well supported as they were now. —(Hear.) He did not believe in the low bate sentiment he had attributed to the members of the Church of England, that they would pass themselves off as Dissen ters; that they would, in short, play the hypocrite to save the tax.—(Hear, hear.) •lle did not blame the world for much practical hypocricy at all. Men were generally in earnest on matters of religion; but, if there v:ere hypocrites, they would bring it to a better market than to sell their religion for the paltry saving of a piti ful pittance of church-rate.—(Hear, hear.) He had no doubt many of his friends would vote for the motion of the Honourable Member for Tavistoek; but, being a Churchman, and anxious to show that he wished to ex empt Dissenters from church-rates, he should have great pleasure in supporting the amendment of the Hon. Gen tleman the Member for Oxford.—(Cheers.) The House then divided on the question whether the words proposed to be omitted from the original resolu tion should stand part of the question or not, when the numbers were— Ayes ... ... 183 Noes ... 20 Majority ... —163 The original motion, as proposed by Mr. Trewlany, was then put, when the numbers were— Aires ... ... ... •.• 84 Noes ... ... ... ... ... 119 Majority ... ••• ... —35 Both the original motion and the amendment were consequently negatived. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. Lord J. RUSSELL said that, with regard to the ad journed debate on the resolutions moved by the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli), perhaps that Hon. Member would not object to go on with it to morrow (this day), and, if the debate should not then terminate, proceed with it on Thursday. Mr. DISRAELI had no objection to accede to the proposal of the Noble Lord. He only wished to consult the convenience of the House. Mr. EWART said he had a motion standing first for Thursday, on the subject of the punishment of death, which he certainly was very desirous of bringing on. Mr. DISRAELI thought it would be better to go on with the adjourned debate to-morrow (this day.) Mr. BOUVERIE complained that during the two divi. sions which had just taken place the doors of the House had been kept closed, by which several Members who were ,not present at the first division, but who were anxious to have taken part in the second division, were prevented from doing so. The SPEAKER said the doors ought to have been opened immediately after the first division, and before the question on which the second division took place was proposed. VAN DIEMEN'S LAND. Mr. ANSTEY then rose to move an address to her Majesty on the subject of certain illegal ordinances' or acts of Council for the taxation of the people of Van Diemen's Land, the attempts of Lieutenant-Governor Sir William Denison to intimidate the judges of the Supreme Court of that island into declaring such ordi nances or acts to be legal, and the grievances com plained of by the colonists of that island in their peti tion presented last year to her Majesty, and printed by order of that House; and was proceeding t o s t a t e th e circumstances which justified him in calling upon the House to ask her Majesty to direct the local authorities in future to respect the independence of the judicial func tions of that Court, and also to signify her disallowance of any ordinance or act subsequently passed by the said Lieutenant-Governor in Council, for giving to such Me. gal ordinances or acts the force of law, when an Hon. Member drew the attention of the Speaker to the cir cumstance of there not being 40 Members present. The House was then counted, and there being only 38 Members present, the House adjourned at 20 minutes past Ten o'clock. Mr. Henry Berkeley, M.P. for Bristol, had paired with Mr. Hall, M.P. for West Gloucestershire, until half-past nine o'clock, the former in favour of, the latter against Mr. Trelawny's motion for the abolition of church-rates, and arriving before the second division, they were excluded in consequence of the doors not be ing opened between the divisions, as complained of by Mr. Bouverie. Colonel Clifford paired off in favour of Mr. Tre lawny's motion for the abolition of church-rates, with Mr. Pole Carew, against. TO THE SECRETARY OF THE METROPOLITAN REFORM ASSOCIATION. Sir,—On Monday the 12th the Second Reading of the Bill fur altering the Navigation Laws was carried by 266 against 210. This is virtually a defeat, being less than half the majority on the last occasion, when the numbers were 294 against 177. Everybody might see it was coming to this. The system of incessant and vigorous attack bdgun by Lord George Bentinck, joined to the system on the other side of making no replies, has told upon the House and upon the public. In fact this is the way in which all losing causes recover themselves, and all winning ones are lost. The tide may be said to be turned, as far as relates to further progress at present; and it remains to be seen whether the Free. Trade party have anchors and cables which will enable them to hold their own. Their opponents in the agricultural interest clearly in tend trying the point; as is evinced by their inability to refrain trom boasting of their fidelity to " the next endangered interest," which implies that the shipowners have their assistance now, under an engagement to go on with them for the future object. If anything in the chapter of accidents should give a little help to such a project, a Minister with a moderate fixed duty on his lips would in another session find a powerful current for carrying him into office. All this is what everybody knew, or might have known. It was within the compass of every man's ex perience, that human affairs never stand balanced on a needle's point, but always, if they do not go one way, go the other. When the commercial or Free-Trade party, by an unexpected event with which they had very little to do in the way of cause, found themselves in posses sion of temporary success, the question was to be tried whether they had insight into what was necessary for the completion of their objects, and whether they had or had not within themselves the elements fur being a ruling power in the State. Some, looking to the examples of states manship and policy which have been displayed by com mercial republics, thought it probable they had. In stead of this, a hurried burning of the regimental books, and division of the military chest, demon strated to their enemies how little danger there was on this point, and how certain a persevering and con nected rally was of being attended with success. Of course, when the grand vision has broken down, the connected visions vanish into thin air. The peace abroad which was to be secured by the progress of free trade, and the financial reform at home which was to be enforced by the influence of the Free-Trade party, are all dissolved in the merry laughs and radiant countenances of the substantial victors on Monday night's division. When things come to a pass of this kind, the best that can be done is to make the worst of them. Free-trade, for the present, has been brought to a melancholy de fensive. When the boys of to-day have tarried till their beards aro grown, the question may again make head, under better auspices than before. On Tuesday au important debate on the subject of Church-Rates. The question is manifestly making way. The arguments on the part of the Establishment appear to reduce themselves to this—that the Church wants all she can get for her own extension, in other words for emoluments to her own clergy, and therefore Dissenters must pay for repairs. Something was said too, about the interest Dissenters have in the orderliness produced by going to church. The reply to which would seem to be, to ask the Church to pay for the orderliness produced by going to meeting. It would be worth the experiment if practicable, to see this Church put for a year or two under a regimen of paying Peter's i'ence towards a cathedral at Rome, fur the sake of noting how it would deport itself under that peculiar dispensation. The Member for Tavistock's Resolution for proceeding to take measures for the Abolition of Church-Rates, was supported by 84 against 119; a good division. There seems to be a very faithful 84. I am, Sir, your obedient servant,. AN OLD BEI 010111-6° London, March 14, 1849. COURT CIRCULAR, OSBORNE, TUESDAY. Her Majesty and his Rc ) ya and the y ounger l Highness walked early this morning in the Park of Osbor ne, branches of the Royal Family walked and rode as usual. There was no addition to the royal dinner party yes terday. Sir William C. Ross, R.A., had the honour of taking the last sitting yesterday, for a likeness of his Serene Highness Prince Ernest of Leiningen, by command of the Queen. A Committee of her Majesty's Most Honourable Privy Council for Trade and Foreign Plantations, had a meet• i ng yesterday, at the office of the Board of Trade, Whitehall. The Lords present were—the Right lion. Henry Labouchere, President of the Beard of Trade; Earl Grey, Secretary of State for the Colonies; Earl Granville. Vice-President of the Board of Trade; Sir Edward Ryan, and Sir James Stephen. APPROACHING MARRIAGE IN HIGH LIFE.—We are enabled to announce that the preliminaries are ar ranged for the marriage of Lord Foley and Lady Mary ritzalan Howard, eldest daughter of the Duke and Duchess of Norfolk. The ceremony is expected to take place in May. PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS. (From tae Votes and Proceedings of the House of Conionoss.) TUESDAY, MARCH 13. CHURCH RATES. Motion made, and Question proposed, " That it is the opinion of this House that effectual measures should be im mediately taken for the abolition of Church Rates:"-- Amendment proposed, to leave out the words " the abolition of Church Rates," in order to add the words " discharging persons dissenting from the Church as by law established from contributing to Church Rates, and from taking any part in levying, assessing, or administering the 5ame:"...... Question put, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question." The House divided:— MAJORITY—AYES, 133. Gibson, T. M. Newdegate, C. N. Gladstone, W. E. Norreys, Sir D. Gore, W. R. 0. Nugent, Lord Goulburn, Henry O'Brien, Sir Lucius Greenall, Gilbert O'Connell, John Greene, Joha Osborne, Ralph Grey, Sir George Pakington, Sir J. S. Charles W Gwyn, Rowel E ow dw ei ard Patten, J. . Haggitt, F. E. Peel, Sir Robert Raiford, Sir Henry Peel, Frederick Hamilton, G. A. Peto, Samuel Hardcastle, J. A. Pilkington," James Morris, Captain Plowden, W. H. Harris, Richard Pryse, Pryse Hastie, Alexander Pugh, David Ilavres, Benj. Rendlesham, Lord Hay, Lord J. Rich, Henry Rayes, Sir E. Richards, Richard Hay ter, W. G. Romilly, Sir John Heneage, G. H. W. Itushout, Captain Henley, J. W. Russell, Lord J. Henry,-Alexander Russell, F. C. Herbert, Sidney Balwey, Colonel Heywood, James Sandars, George Heyworth, L. Scholetield, William Hildyard, R. C. S e y, B. K. Hindley Charles Sibthorp, Colonel Hobhousa, Sir J. Slaney, Robert A. Hodgson, W. N. , Smith, John B. Hood, Sir A. Somerville. Sir W. Hope, A. Sotheron, T. H. S. Humphery, Ald. Spearman, H. J. Howard, Lord E. Spooner, Richard Jackson, William Stafford, Augustus Jervis, Sir John Stanley, E. Jones, Captain Stanton, W. H. Kershaw, James Stuart, Lord D. King, P. J. Sutton, H. M. Labouchere, Henry Taylor, T. E. Langston, J. H. Tennent, R. J. Lascelles, W. S. Thesiger, Sir F. Lennard, T. B. Thicknesse, R. A. Lennox, Lord G. H. Thompson, Colonel Lewis, G. C. Thompson, George Lewisham, Viscount Thornely, Thomas Locke, Joseph Tollemache, John Long, Walter Trevor, G. Lopes, Sir Ralph Turtle% H. Maitland, Thomas Tyrrell, Sir J. Mandeville, Viscount Verney, Sir H. Martin,"C. W. Villiers, Charles Maule, Fox Walmsley, Sir J. Maunsell, T. P. Wawn, J T. Melguad, Viscount Westhead, J. P. Mitchell, T. A. Willcox, Brodie Molesworth, Sir W. Williams, John Monsell, William Wood, Sir Charles Morris, David Wyld, James Mowatt, Francis TELL7II9. Mulgrave, Earl Trelawny, J. S. Napier, Joseph Hume, J. Acland, Sir T. • Adair, Hugh E. Adare, Viscount Aglionby, H. A. Anderson, Arthur Anstey, Thomas C. Armstrong, R. B. Ashley, Lord Bankes, G. Barrington, Lord Bass, M. T. Bellew, R. M. Bennet, Philip Berkeley, Captain Berkeley, C. L. Blair, Stephen Blewitt,:Reginald Bourke, R. S. Boyd, John Bramston, T W. Bremridge, Richard Bright, John Broadley, Henry Brooke, Lord lirotherton, Joseph Bruce, C. L. C. Bader, Sir Y. Campbell, W. F. Chaplin, W. J. Cholmeley, Sir M. Christopher, R. Clay, James Clay, Sir W. Clerk Sir G. Codrington, Sir W. Cole, Hon. H. A. Colebrook*, Sir T. Cowper, W. F. Cubitt, William Davie, Sir H. Davies, D. A. S. Devereux, J. T. Disraeli, B. Drumlanrig; Vie. Duke, Sir James Duncan, Viscount Duncan,:George Duncuft, John Du Pre, C. G. Ebrington, Viscount Elliot, J. E. Estcourt, J. B. B, Evans, William Ewalt, William Fagan, William Farnham, E. B. Floyer, John Fox, Richard li. Fox, W. J. Frevren, C. H. Gaakell, J. M. MINORITY-NOES, 20. Adair, R. Shafto French, F. Archdall, Captain Glyn, G. C. Bernal, Ralph Mangles, R. D. Brocklehurst, John Milner. W. M. Bunbury, E. H. Pechell, Captain Cobden, Richard Perfect, R. TELLISS, Cotton, W. H. Ricardo, Osman Headlam, Thomas D'Eyncourt, C. T. Rice, E. R. Wood. W. P. Robartes, T. J. Serope, G. P. Willyams, H. Wilson, Matthew Main Question put. The House divided : MINORITY—AYES, 84. Adair, Hugh E. Hardcastle, J. A. Peto, Samuel Agllonby, H. Harris, Richard Pilkington, James Anderson, Arthur Hastie, Alexander Pryse, Pryse Bass, M. T. Headiam, T. E. Ricardo, Osman Berkeley, C. L. G. Henry, Alexander Robartes, T. J. A. Bernal, Ralph Heywood, James Salwey, Colonel Blawitt, R. J. Heyworth, Lawrence Scholetleld, William Boyd, John Hindley, C. Scrope, G. P. Brocklehurst, J. Ilume, Joseph Smith, J. Benjamin Brotherton, J. Humphery, Ald. Spearman, H. J. Banbury, Edwari Jackson, William Stuart, L ord D. Busfcild, _W. Kershaw, James Tennent, h. J. Clay, James King, P. J. Thicknesse, Ralph Clay, Sir W. Langston, J. 4, Thompson, Colonel Cobden, Richard Lennard, T. Ell Thompson, George Colebrooke, Sir T. Locke, Joseph Thornely, T. Davie, Sir Henry Melgund, Viscount Verney, Sir H. . Devereux, John T. Milner, W. M. Villiers, Charles 1 D'Eyncourt, T. Mitchell, T. A. Walmsley, Sir J. Duke, Sir J. Molesworth, Sir W. Wawn, J. T. Duncan,:Visconnt Morris, David Westhead, J. P. Duncan, George Mowatt, Francis Willcox, Brodie Evans, William Norreys, Sir D. Williams, John Ewart, William Nugent, Lord: Willyams, H. Fagan, William O'Connell, J. Wilson, Matthew Fox, W. J. Osborne, Ralph Wyld, James Gibson, T. M." Pearson, Charles TELLER/. Glyn, George Carr Pechell, Captain Trelawny, J. S. Greene, John Perfect, Bober:, Bright, John MAJORITY-NOES, 119. Acland, Sir T. D. French, F. Maunsell, T. P. Adair, R. SLafto Frewen, C. H. Mousell, William Adare, Viscount Gaskell, J.;M. Mu'grave, Earl Anstey, T. C. Gladstone, W. E. Napier, Joseph Archdall, Captain Gore, W. R. 0. Newdegate, C. N. Armstrong, R. B. Goulburn, Henry O'Brien, Sir Lucius Ashley, Lord Greenell, G. rakington, Sir J. Bankes tG. Grey, Sir 0. Fatten, J. W. .. ... _ Barrington, Viscount Grogan, E. Feel, Sir Robert Bellew, It. M. Gwyn, Ilowel Peel, Frederick Bennet, Philip Haggitt, F. R. Plowden, W. li. Berkeley, Captain Halford, Sir 11. Pugh, David Blair, Stephen Hamilton, G. - A. Rendlesham,:Lord Bourke, Richard S. Harris, Captain Rich, Henry Bramston, T. W. Hawes, B. Richards, Richard Bremridge, Richard Hay, Lord John Romilly, Sir John Broadley, H. Hayes, Sir E. Rushout, Captain Brooke, Lord Hayter, W. G. Russell, Lord John Bruce, C. L. Mileage, G. H. Russell, F. C. Buller, ;Mr J. Y. Henley, J. W. Sandars, George Campbell, W. F. Herbert, Sidney Seynier, H. K. Chaplin, W. J. Hildyard, H. C. Sibthorp, Colonel Cholmeley, Sir M. Hobhouse, Sir John Stoney, R. A. Christopher, R. Hodgson, W. N. Somerville, Sir W. Clerk, Sir G. Hood, Sir A. Sotheron, T. • Codrington, Sir W. 'Hope, Alexander Spooner, Richard Cole, 11. A. Howard, Lord F.. Suitfsrd, Augustus Cotton, W. H. Jervis, Sir John Stanley, Edward Cowper, W F. Jones, Captain Stanton, W. S. Cubitt, William Labouchere, Henry Sutton, Henry Davies, D. A. Lincellics, W. S. Taylor, T. E. Disraeli, B. Drumlahrlg, Vis. Duncult, John Lennox, Lor 11. Thesiger, Sir F. Lewis, George C. ToHem:wile, John Lewisham, Vise. Trevor, G. R. Pre, C. G. Long, W. Etiriugton, Lord Lopes, Sir Ralph Elliot, John E. Maitland, Thomas Lsteourt, J. B. B. Mandeville, 'Viscount Farnham, E. Mangles, R. D. Tuthell, Henry Tyrrell, Sir J. Wood, Sir Charles Floyer, J'ohn Martin, C. W. TELLERS. Rice, L. It. Wood, W. I'. Richard M. Maule, Fox ROCKINGHAM ; OR, TUE YOUNGER BROTHER.-- It is reported that this charming novel is written by a near relative of Lord Foley. The Court Journal ob serves—" This tale has the remarkable attraction of being for the most part as true to nature as truth itself, and as strange and exciting as the wildest fiction. It would be difficult to point out any similar work in which the style is more simple, clear, and to the purpose, the incidents better chosen with a view to the objects aimed at, and the characters which it seeks to develop. We pay the highest compliment we can well put into words when we say that the earlier portions of the work strongly remind us of Tremaine and' Do Vere.' One of the moral lessons to be drawn from the career of the hero is implied in the epithet ' Younger Brother,' from which all the misfortunes of his life spring. The various parts of the narrative are held together by a love story, which is told with great truth and pathos, and which gives to the work all the popular attractions of s modern novel." DEATH OF FIELD MARSHAL SIR G. NIIGENT.--. On Sunday night Field Marshal General Sir George Nugent, Bart., K.C.8., expired at his residence, Wes thorpe House, Little Marlow, at the advanced ago of 92. He was the oldest general officer in the army. Sir George entered the service on the sth of July, 1773, which is the date of his ensign's commission. Ile served throughout the first American war, having gone out when a lieutenant, and was employed in the expedition up Hudson's river, for the relict of General Burgoyne's army; was present at the capture of Forts Montgomery and Clinton, by assault, and performed various other services. He returned in 1783 a lieutenant.colonel. In March, 1793, Sir George accompanied the brigade of guards to the continent, was present at the siege of Va lenciennes, and fought in the actions of St. Amond and Lincelles. On the army going into winter quarters he returned home and raised a regiment of toot—the 85th. In 1794 he became colonel, and accompanied his regiment to Walcheren, where he held the local rank of brtgadier.general, and in October joined the army of the Duke of fork, having obtained the command of a brigade of the line, canton2d near Tiel, on the Wall. During the whole of the Irish rebel lion Major-General Nugent commanded the northern district of Ireland. In 1803 he obtained the rank of lieutenant-general, and in 1806 the colonelcy of the 6th Regiment, which he retained to his death. Having transferred his services to India, he was appointed in 1811 commander-ia-chief of the forces there, which dis tinguished post he occupied till 1813, when he wfis ie r .ce ceeded by the Marquis of Hastings, Sir retired with the rank of general. June, 186, of George Nugent became one of the nine ta n or keeper of England. Since 1796, he has been cap and fromllsB'4l,l6, n ANKLAND RUSSELL. —e labours age e h th i o f St. Mawe's Castle. DEATH OF SIR R Baronet expired somewhat.F. suddenly at his seat, Great sixty-five. Sir to his seat on Saturda y H S a i l r l , Robert Yorkshire, was o nlol gtSundayhuoe colleagues, n a ad s n t ed , d at jhui t rs h y y MOTH-. • attacked and was soon after with violent inflamma oYno Friday.rk as iz ing, eteuaond,ivit with returnedhis lion, which ended in his dissolution after several hours' suffering. In 1815 the Hon. Baronet married the third daughter of the Bishop of St. David's. Sir It. Frank land succeeded his father (the sixth baronet) in 1831, and assumed the name of Russell in 1836, on succeeding to the estates of Sir R. S. Russell, Bart. Sir Robert sat for Thirsk, near to which his house is situated, both be fore and alter the passing of the Reform Bill. It was indeed by his influence that the place remained a borough. for its population befere the passing of the boundary Act was much below 4,000; and although he ceased to sit for it for some years, he exercised a considerable in fluence in returning its single Member. Sir Robert was deputy-lieutenant of Yorkshire. He leaves io family, arid is succeeded by his first cousin. ERRATuIt.—In our second leading article last evening, three words were inadvertently omitted —it should have been (Ist par. 4th sent.)—" When Mr. Obaldestone rode in ten hours over two hundred miles in Leicestershire, &c." Again in the 10th sentence of the same paragraph, it should have been printed that Sir Charles Napier's journey to India overland would occupy, with relays of couriers, " seven weeks " instead of "seine weeks." TRAGEDY AT DULVERTON.—Last week a wom an name d Sophia Rile s , a man named James Head, arldaia of 17, named J ames C at h ercole, were wor ki n g tin a ;rm belonging t o M r . Th omas P ol l att, f arme r,ofS unrg they ridge, thrashing wheat. Ab o ut six o'clock in the evening with the en were throwing the straw up, and hadthtinreeished trusses. De exception of throwing up the De ceased said, " These three trussesiackjashts2ad better remain as , Head, however, objected; words ensued, when they will be wanted for the buh Head knocked the lad down, and ultimately over the head and nec k c with his hook. Thes&str.uk him facts having been proved b e f ore the coroner, the WA "" trot cmulitted fu trill. the ci h e d bY jos.* . al es .3en• vh o ,c he ,s by inea 110$