The Sun. — London, England, 1849-05-08 00:00:00

obligation by the sanction of religion; and, secondly, 1 M exclude certain persons who declined acceding to the terms of the oath or affirination. Was it to be avid that any human being, by refusing to take an oath when about performing a duty, was to be divested of the obli gation under which he undertook to perform that solemn duty ? Would anybody say that an (-nth was not as binding and as strong in the case of a Jew as anybody else ? The Jew said he believed in an oath, and pro fessed his readiness to give to his obligation the sanction of reli g i on . They eat drank , and dealt with the Jew, and he w an t e d to know why it was that they had not the Jew , L among them?—(Hear, hear.) In all probability -:.'°37 would find the HonouraWe Member for Ox- Lord to-morrow ei!ing the authority of the Jew tu s a lawgiver on the marriage questien. lie should like to know how that inconsistency could be got 141 c e - He asked the common sense of the House and of the country—be was fond of appealing to the com mon sense of both—what there was in the man, of in the men, who believed in the Decalogue, to prevent him or them from becoming a Membe,. of the British Legislature ? Jews were not aliens. There were many I : 4) glielazan Frofeesing the religion of the Je v. They were in that character honest men. They professed that morality which Englishmen approved of and l earned, and he could not understand on what prin ciple or what reason it was contended they should not Le admitted to Parliament. He denied that the enact- Meat of the na(aeure would in the slightest degree un hristianise the House of Commons, and believing that the Noble Lord at the head of the Government bed fol• lowed a wise course in bringing forward the Bill, be should give it his hearty and cordial support. After a few words in cx2lanation from Mr. GOUT BURN the House disided, when there appeared— For the second reading - 278 Against it ... Majority.. -93 The Bill was then read a .seconcl time, and ordered to be committed. Mr. GOULBUIDI inquired what course it was in tended adopting tomorrow with regard to the public business ? Would the adjourned debate on the mAr tia.e question, or notices of motion, hive the prece dence ? . . . . Mr. S. WORTLEY hoped that Honourable Gentle men having notices of motion would allow the adjourned debate to take precedence. He appealed particularly to the lion. Members for Newcastle and Longford. . . Mr. HEADLAM observed that his notice of motion for leave to introduce a Bill rendering lawful the forma tion of joint-stock banks, based upon the principle of a limited liability of shareholders, stood first on the list. If he were allowed to bring in the Bill without opposi tion, he was quite willing that the debate should be taken on the second reading. Major BLACKALL said if it were the wish of the Bou-e, he should not interpose his motion, provided that other Hon. Members having notices on the paper would also give way, to allow the adjourned debate on the merriage question to be resumed. Mr. MACGREGOR couldnot consent to postpone his motion respecting the incorporation of Kensington, Chelsea, F u lh am , and Hammersmith , into a Perlis xceatary borough. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he iateuded opposing the introduction of the Hon. Member for Newcastle's Bill, and unless there was a decided ex pression of opinion by the House aiverse to that course, he should persevere in his intention. Mr. S. WORTLEY thought the opposition to the Bill might be reserved till the second reading, in order to allow the debate on the Marriage Bill to be proceeded ith. Mr. G. TITOMPSON, in reply to Sir R. Peel, said he had already expressed his intention not to stand in the Way of the adjourned debate on the Marriage Bill. LAND INIPROVEMENT AND DRAINAGE (IRE• LAND) BILL. Ths report upon this Bill was brought up and re ceived, as also was the report of the Committee of Supply, The Incumbered Estates (Ireland) Bill, and the Estates Leasing (Ireland) Bill were read a second time, and ordered to be committed. Mr. GOULBURN wished that the Hon. Member for Glasgow would say positively whether ho would or - would not give way tomorrow. Mr. MACGREGOR said he should positively not give way.—(Grant laughter.) ACCOUNTS OF TURNPIKE TRUSTS (SCOT- LAND) BILL. Mr. e. LEWIS moved the second reading of this Bill. Mr. FORBES MACKENZIE declared his intention of dividing-the House against it. The galleries were cleared for- a division, but none toke place, and the Bill was read a second time. __ LUNATICS (SCOTLAND) BILL. The LORD ADVOCATE moved the second reading of this Bill. Mr. F. NIACKENZIE moved, as an amendment, that the House stould adjourn. A division took place, when the numbers were— For the adjou►nment 24 For the second reading ... ... 69 Majority ... . . ------45 PUBLIC HEALTH (SCOTLAND) BILL. On our return to the gallery we found BRUCE opposing the second reading of this Bill. He wished it to be postponed to a more fitting opportunity. The LORD ADVOCATE did not think that a Bill precisely on the plan cf the law of England would have been opposed at all. He did not object to a postpone ment, if such were desirable, but he should leave it to the House to decide whether any reason had been shown for postponement. After a short conversation, Sir GEORGE GREY said, that if any Honourable Member objected to the principle of the Bill, ample time would be given before the Bill was pressed on through the House. Mr. OSWALD wished that tune should be given for the public opinion of Scotland to be known. Mr. AGLIONBY supported the second reading. Ob jections to the Bill might be taken in Committee. Mr. CHARIERIS hoped that if the second reading was taken now, the Committee would not be hurried for ward. The're were nine Scotch Bills on the table, and the people of Scotland were quite alarmed at the legis lative fecundity of the Lord Advocate.—(A laugh.) The LORD ADVOCATE reminded the House that he was under a pledge from last session to force on the Bill as fast as possible. It contained no new principle whatever, and he hoped the House would consent to pass the measure through its present stage. After a few words from Colonel SIBTHORP, Mr. A. HASTIE supported the motion, approving as he did the of the provisions of the Bill. Mr. DUNCAN expressed himself favourable to the Bill. Mr. F. MACKENZIE moved the adjournment of the debate. The House divided, when there appeared— For the adjournment ... 19 Against it ... ... 63 Majority against the adjournment —44 The second reading of the Bill, after a short conver sation, was postponed to this day. The other orders were then disposed of, and the Rollie adjourned at One o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, May 7. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the Woolsack at Five o'clock. NAVIGATION-LAWS. Petitions against the rcpe,al of the navigation-laws were presented by the Duke of Richmond, the Marquis of Londonderry, the Earl of Harrowby, Lord Wham cliffe, and Lord Stanley, from certain bankers, shipowners, and artizmis of London, signed by 31,771 persons, and from various other places. Petitions in favour of the repeal of the navigation laws were presented by the Marquis of LANSDOWNE from Manchester and Dundee. EXCHEQUER-BILLS BILL. On the motion of Earl GRANVILLE, this Bill was read a second time. • SICILY. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE laid on the table certain papers relating to Sicily. NAVIGATION-LAWS. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE then moved the - second reading of the Bill fir h Lion - laws. He felt himself re tevetf. rep eal of the navi wts d 'fro m the necessity of de rest length, tram a taining their Lordsho i rps tyh a i t P a s n y were g already familiar with know ledge that their L d almost all the facts and arguments of the case. He, how. ever, must detail some of the reasons which induced him to make his motion, because he knew that in 'many cases the opposition to this Biloltwha: was founded sure upon s o i l nicae belief,re, belief, h e believed an erroneous, but that this measure would affect the naval supremacy o f this country. It would be his business to endeavour to disabuse the minds t ot' Noble Lords of that belief. He necessary to sacrifice some admitted that it was to preserve the rest, so was it n eessary portion of our liber ty to sacrifice some portion ' of the wealth and resources obit)trusted he should the country for the purposes of defence. show their Lord s hip s thatßasucth. sa erifices as were desired by the conti nuacce o f th e nargation laws were not re quired. ll e a , u ld no t go step by step into the history of those laws. The first attempt hi the ti me o f Richard 11., a navigation law was but the year after its enactment it was foun d to be so destiuctive to commerce that the very Parliament which passed it was compell e d to repeal it. These laws were founded in the n atura l feeling of grasping at every t hing in coat nierce, which i nvar i a bl y brought with it its ownpunish ment. Th e prosperity of every country must be invari ably founded upon the prosperity of other commercial countries—(Ch eers )— and, consequently, all those at tempts had tailed. Another attempt had been made to enact a navigation-law by Henry VIII., and having protected the shipowner, he pr o t ecte d the peop l e ageinst t h e shipowner, by en :cting that only a certain number of ships should be permitted to enter the ports of the kingdom. This scheme, as might have been supposed, failed. It wits not until the time of Cromwell that the present navigation-laws were enacted. The object of the navigation-law was not purely of a commercial nature, his ()lint was to punish the Dutch for the support which they had given to Charles IL Considering the then situation of this country there might p‘rhaps have been the experiment how far by a fair grounds for trying present sacrifice of wealth a stimulus might be given to the development of our marine strength. Our circumstances, with regard to nollend, were at that time the very reverse of what they were now. But thengh he admitted that the experiment might have been at the time fairl he by no means a d in i tte i that that experi y tried, ment had b een kacc,ssful. Ftfzuu years alter tho.se, laws hzd been enacted I,eivt:nd it i%.corded in that most ftintuing hook, the " Diary of Mr. Sscrvtary PLp3,s," that it was itn posAblo to see any hut women nawiatitz boats, as the men had all been pressed, end that as a remedy for this state of things, it had been found necessary to recom mend the immediate suspension of slle navigilfioniaws. Ile would pass over the history of those laws durirg the reigns of the Stuarts, merely stating that their effict, after a few years' trial, being found most disadvanta geous, considerable modifications were made, and on,the accession of William 111. the trade and commerce of the country were in a very flourishing condition. He would next go on to the period when at theer.d of the American war Mr. Pitt came into effice—a name to which he never alluded. but with' the greatest respect, and for which many in that House professed an almost super stitious reverence. Mr. Pitt immediately on coming into office ; peisualed of the importance in the then state of things of introducing some relaxation of the naviga tion-laws, introduced a measure for that purpose. That was at a moment when beyond any other in the history of England, the importance of the navy to the security of the country had been proved, and at the dose of a war in which the tarnished laurels in the unfortunate war which had taken place, by. land, in America, had been in a great degree redeemed by the glory of those successes which from the victory of Rodney, in the West Indies, to the relief of Gibraltar by Howe, in the Mediter ranean, had established the naval supremacy of this country. and rescued her honour, enabling her to obtain a satisfactory peace. Was that a moment when any wise and prudent Minister would think of laying his hands on a sacred ark, as some considered the naviga tion-laws, in which the security of the navy, .and con sequently of the country, corisistA ? Nevertheless, Pitt at once saw the necessity of opening the colonial trade, and introduced a measure for that purpose, but which his retirement from office prevented him .from carrying, although this principle had from time to time been acted on by acts of authority on the part of succes sive Ministries.--(llcar, hear.) He next came to a time within his ownlecollection. In 1807 he brought into the other House a measure for establi,hing free inter course between the West Indian and American colonies and the mother country. That measure was oppos..d by Sir W. Grant, on the ground that it would affect the navy and mercantile marine of this country. He further stated, that such would be then inducemen t afforded to American vessels for ping to the West Indian islands, and engaging iinthe trade of them, that it was doubt ful whether any sugar would be imported to this country. Now, remembering those allegations, and the powerful eloquence with which they were enforced, he had the curiosity to ascertain what the effect of that measure had been which was denounced as having so destructive a tendency. He had tak(n the year in vi filch the measure passed crown to the conclusion of the war, and ho found, that while in the year 1807, the year in which that Bill was passed, the general tonnage of Bri tish ships was two millions and ninety-six thousand tons, at the conclusion of the war that tonnage had increased to 2 ; 247,000 tons. The Duke of RICHMOND—That included ships of war as well as merchant ships. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—He would then turn to the system with which they had now to deal, and lo at the altered shape which the navigation-laws have taken, if shape it could be called, which shape had none distinguishable. And on that part of the subject he had to state, that instead of the commerce of this country being girt about, as some would insinuate, with a coat of impenetrable armour, it was clothed with a gar ment of shreds tied patches, a system the most com plicated that ever was put on the statute book in the shape of an enactment.—(hear, hear.) Under what protection was it, he would ask, that they now existed ? The fact was few were aware, and it would perhaps not a little surprise their Lordships whin he told them that several most respectable witnesses engaged in shippi , g and commerce, called before a Committee of their Lordships' House to give evidence in favour of the navigation-laws, avowed that, until they were called upon to consider the subject, they had no idea that there was so little protection as there was.—(Bear, hear.) But when the subject was looked into, the absence of all that protection soon became apparent. They had, for instance, various treaties concluded, such as the United States, Mexico, Buenos Ayres, Vein vide, Russia, Anstris, the Netherlands, Prussia, Denmark, Sweden, Holland, Portugal, Neples, Turkey, Oldenburgli, Greece, an] every me of these had been entered into independent of the navigation-laws. They were Lot all framed on the same principles ; on the contrary, they exhibited the greatest va riety of opinions and ideas. Some of them were terminable, others interminable. They contained diffe• rent catalogues of charges, and different conditions as to the engagement of vessels for foreign voyages, and taken as a whole, compris-d a mass of contusion, d fficulty, and inconvenience, which made it not at all surprising that those having the deepest interest in them, found it impossible to discover under what law or what protection they were acting. That, therefore, had had the effect of suspending, in many instances, the operation of the navigation-laws, and the general result of that hal been, that year by year the amount and value of British shipping and trade had been progres sively increasiug.--(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) He found teat, white in 1816 the tonnage of British shipping was 2,783,000 tons, in 1818 it had risen to up wards of five millions of tons. No doubt it would be said that during that time the commercial prosperity arid power of other nations had also increased, and that he viewed as one of the best aspects of the times, for it showed how one nation benefited by coming in contact with others, and how the whole flourished by a system of commercial enterprize. But it was also said that the British shipowner and merchant was not in a condition to compete with foreign coun tries without a large amount of protection being afforded him. Now, in answer to that, he would call the atten tion of their Lordships to the manner in which the Bri tish shipowner and merchant prospered in the very voyages and countries in which th e y were most expose d to t hat competition. Ile had before him the proportion of English and American tonnage, and, as it was said that one effect of the present measure would be to enable the United States to beat the shipping of this country out of the market, he would state that proportion to the House. For a great many years past, in the direct voyages between this country and the United States, the English shipowner had gone totally unprotected. Now, what was the issue of the contest between him end the American in that respect? In 1536 the tonnage of English ships engaged in direct trade with America, and in competition with American ships, was 544.000 tons, and the American tonnage was 1,255,000, while in 1848 the English tonnage had risen to 1,177,000 tons, and the American to 2,393,000 tons, thereby showing not only that the English shipping had maintained itself, but that it had increased in a greater proportion during the time stated than had the American tonnage. And to show the proportion of British and foreign tonnage employed in the trade with the United States, he had to state that while the British tonnage in that trade was 1,177,000 tons, that of all other nations only amounted to 228,000 tons, so that the British tonnage was six or seven times the amount of that of all other nations so employed. Within the last few days he had received a letter from a very extensive shipowner on the subject, who stated, as the result of his experience, that his ships never got so good freights, and were never so successful, as when they sailed between two foreign ports.—(Hear, hear.) And that being what the present measure was intended to render more common and extensive, no one could say that its passing would deteriorate the interest of the shipowner. He would now turn to the Baltic; but would first allude to the trade carried on by the British ship ping with Hamburgh. The trade carried on by British shipping there exceeded the amount of the trade •of Hamburgh itself, and hail exceeded that carried on by shipping of all. other nations. •The tonnage of British shipping which sail from that port was 291,000, while the tonnage of all other nations was only 265,000 tons. Then if they went to Russia and the Baltic, where it was said competition would be more severe than anywhere else, as ships could be built there so cheap that the English shipowner had no chance with such competitors; there timber was cheap, and the greatest facility afforded for ship-building; but, notwithstanding that he found that while there had sailed from the port of St. l'etersburgh 228,000 tons of British shipping, the ton nage of Prussiah and other foreign vessels trailing there only amounted to 221,000 tons, so that in the very heart of that country, where timber was cheap and where corn petition the most materially be feared, the British mer chant had maintained so decided an advantage and supe riority as might make him careless about future competition. But it might be said, if the present system works thus well, why introduce a change at the present time ? It must, however, be borne in mind, that although this country might be at present master of shipbuilding, it might not alwa3s remain so, and that there were be sides many other considerations to be taken into account, which made it evident that unless a change was made in time, the duties now to be altered would have to be so when it would, perhaps, be more difficult and dangerous to do it. There were besides from 220,000 to 230,000 tons of English shipping engaged in indirect trade with countries, the treaties between which and this country were about to expire, and which, were they not secured, all that amount of shipping would bo thrown out of employment.—(Hear.) Ou the other hand, they would find that great disadvantages were cccurring in regard to this country, in its trade with countries who bad no such prohibitory duties as this country had. For instance, most of the British vessels trading to French ports had to leave those pe its i i ballast, and consequently iacurred great loss to the owners. The colonies also called on them to pass such a measure as the present. The West Indian colonies were subjected to great difficulty in consequence of the navigation-laws, and Canada told them that the entire trade of the St. Lawrence depended upon their abrogation. In consequence of the opening of canals and other means of transit, the trade of Canada had been diverted through the United States, which had endeavoured to draw its trade away from it, and the only remedy for that would be the opening of the St. Lawrence—and if that was not done, could they imaeine that the people of Canada would remain quiet? It they expected the co-operation of Canada, they were bound to give full means of development to all her re sources. He believed that monopoly was not the way affordedu l rea d y had in that respect in the history of to in , :ure prosperity. The experience they o h r l a d them a great and serious lesso n . Europe the greatest voured to be established in They had seen endea voured obtain ships, colonies, and commerce, his object was to mono polies that ever existed. They. had heard Bonaparte d commerce, in order that he might esta blish such a mo nopoly as would swallow up British commerce altoge ther, but they had seen him fail in all t hose p ro j ects. Ships he could not get, colonies he could not acquire, and commerce he could not accelerate; and that was be cause the character and enterprise of British commerce were such, that when once it gained a footing it pro grtss.ed on to the establishment of trade on a basis which was not easily to be disturbed or an nihilated. He would, therefore, advise their Lordships to pass the second reading of the Bill, and he way c eitident that if they did not do so the position their trade sod eo:Ltnerce v,uuld occupy would become ••" " • C ;nstider, u I,r(A, Lt. triovin, eund re,. ;c• 13111 thcii and uaderstandiug timt tlte 11 )lie Lurd oiipisite had iesolved to run the risk of re jecting it, he would say, for himself and his colleagues, that they were equally prepared to run the risk of 4 3 being adopted and passed.—(Cheers.) THE STJN 140.NDON I TUESDAY .EVENING, Lord BROUGHAM, in rising to address their Lord ships, was astonished to have heat d of its being said, not many hours ego, that he, who had all along been a sup porter of free trade, should now turn his back upon and refuse to aid in pteting the crown open the last pillar of its trium; hs. Ile glaried in the conquest reterred to— he gloried in having. obtained ti at mural triumph of whet he believed to be the soundest principles of poli tical philosophy, and over the most groundless preju dices by which its progress was ever attempted to be obstructed. But if there were any one drop in that cup of ride which was more sweet and palatable to him, it was the recollection that the most eminent statesmen had given up tl er prejudices against free trade, and had jeined him in carrying the repeal of the corn-laws. He hoped that after the long voyage their Lordships, had among the dry details of statistics, and which it was their fate to continue somewhat longer, though Lot under the able and enlightened guidance of his Noble Friend (the Marquis of Lansdowne), they would excuse him if he would resist the opportunity of enlivening the subject, for one moment, by what long experience in that deliberative aseintly had proved to him to be more interesting than any, however important, statistical question.— (Hear, hear.) But he must first positively eeny the assertion that that seas a question of free trade, or that the navigetion•laws had any sort of con nexion with it, for some of their Lordships considered that this measure was a miserable fragment of free trade. He would_ ask, who was the leader of the great free-trade principle? Who was the eminent apostle of that doctrine? Whose work was it that constituted as it were the Scriptural volume of authority for till free-traders end all political economists of thet school ? Beyond all question, the great apostle of free trade vies Ac are Smith, the author of " The Wealth of Nations." And yet Adam Smith declared that as apu tenets was less important than defence, the navigation laws were the wisest of the commercial regulations of England.—(Hear, hear.) Washington, the revered founder of the American constitution, and the father of American freedom, signalised his entrance into office, at the end of the American war, by a statement of the absolute necessity of America's taking measures, by the encouragement of the American and the discourage ment of foreign shipping, for securing a maritime ascendancy in their own ports.—(Bear, hear.) Again, Maddison, who on many questions differed from Wash ington, signalised his administration by the adoption of that course of policy which the navigation-laws had sanctioned in this country. His argument was, that although such a policy might lead to tome financial loss, or to some commercial restrictions, it was right that the interests of the revenue and of commerce should yield to the higher object of national security. lie (Lord Brougham) had also to state that it was the doc triee of Mr. Huskisson—whore opinions upon that sub j, et had been so misunderstood—that where com merce and marine came into antagonism, com merce should yield, as it was upon our merino that the safety of the country mainly depended.—(hear, hear.) His Noble Ft iend had told them that it appeared front " Pcpys' Diary" that the navigation•laws had been found to have failed fifteen years alter their enact ment. • But it was net the navigation-laws that had lad at that period to the decline of our marine. The fact was that Charles 11. had not maintained his navy in a state of efficiency from a want of the funds necessary for that purpose, or from a want cf a desire to devote the funds at his disposal to the construction of ships or the payment of able seamen. Ms Noble Friend, in the course of his argument, had embarked in a sea of fieurcs ; but he (Lord Brougham) believed that his N Friend could not embark OD a more dangerous voyage than by launching out upon the great ocean of statistics in the good ship "Board of Trade, G. R. Porter, master."—(A laugh.) Indeed he feared that in such a voyage the shipwreck of his Noble Friend was all but inevitable. During the whole of his experience., from the year 1808 to 1812, in 1817, in 1824, and 1842 —during all these different crises in commercial affairs, he the ught that nothing but evil ever arose Irons any of our statesmen founding. their mercantile rolicy on details of figures end statistical tables. There was no proposition which might not be proved by the statistical tables.—(hear, hear.) It was well known that these statistics were done by a process of cookine.—(Hear and laughter.) The Committee which had sat on that question had sufficiently elicited the process by which those tables were prepared. Yet upon these his Noble Friend had relied in support of his case. He bad desired them to look to the state of Ame rican shipping. Ilis Noble Friend had told them, on the authority of those tables, that while our tonnagehad increased by such an amount, tho American tonnage had only increased by such . another amount. His Noble Friend had said that all that was the consequence of pro tection. Now, it so heppened that he (Lord Brougham) had access to the same accounts to which his Noble Friend bed access, and what did he find was the case? He had extracted from.the report a few questions which would throw some light on teat matter. "It appears," said a member of the Committee, examining the wit ness who. had prepared those statistical accounts—" it appears, in pages 447.57, that you have taken the whole of the British, and only part of the American tonnage into your calculation," The witness admitted as much. " Then," continued the examiner, " can any kgree of accuracy whatever he ascribed to that account, as a lair statement of the comparative extent of British and American tonnage?" " Certainly not," said the witness.—(Laughter.) Suppose one asked his cook— " Is what you have served up for dinner good food or not?" and the cook answered, " Certainly not"—(Le ugh ter)—would that be thought a very satisfactory meal to sit down to?—(Bear and laughter.) The witness was further asked, " Have you no moans of remedying this error, or of correcting this inaccuracy?" His reply was, "I do not know that I have. I rather think I have, but lam not certain."—(Much laughter.) Such were the atatistias upon which his Noble Friend founded his case. Now, with respect to the old system of theenavigation leWs, as laid down by Mr. Huskisson, they did not object to his proposition. The policy had been adopted with the view of arranging the reciprocity system and the differential duties, and prohibition had been en tirely out of the question. Mr. Porter, Mr. Ri cardo, and all those who were for repealing the navigation-laws, had stated that it would be found the protected trade had not increased near so much as the unprotected trade. Yet it had been acknowledged that so false a heading had never been put in a beak as that which professed to describe the " protected" and " un protected" trades. It should have been protected and less protected. All the following places should be in a different class from that in which they appeared in the tables in question. The Roman States, Tuscany, Gibraltar, China, Java, the lonian Islands, amid the South Seas. That made a difference of no less than 350,000 tons in tie account, which was nearly oneehalf of the whole. Such returns, therefore, were not those upon which they could safely legislate. It was another part of the principle of the navigation-laws to keep as much of the carrying trade in our own hands as we could, and to keep other countries as much as possible from it. It had been said that 215,000 tons of shipping were now engaged in the carrying trade, which were likely to be put out of it if that measure were not passed. Now that was a fiction of the grossest—he was almost going to say scandalous nature he had ever heard.— (Hear.) lie had never seen a more unfounded misre presentation. The calculations of tonnage had been taken from the number of voyages which the ships made. There had been 47 ships of about 7,000 tons entirely, and they having made 32 voyages on the year, the abovementioned amount of tonnage bad been set down in the calculation.—(llear, hear.) There was ono ship called the Magician, set down as at 14,200 tons, yet she was only 96 tons burden, but she made 146 voyages on the year, and that was the way in which her magical amount of tonnage had been made out.—(Hear, hear.) He would leave it to those Hon. Members of the other House of Parliament, who called upon their fancies for their facts, and their memories for their jokes—(Laugh ter)— to reconcile such an amount of exaggeration as that account showed.—(Hear, hear.) Allusion had -been made to the Russian trade with this country. Now there was no question relative to the navigation-laws between this country and Russia. No goods could now be exported from Russia, unless Russia had been the entrepot fur the same. One of the witnesses examined had said with regard to the difference between Eng lish and Russian seamen; that one of the for mer would do the work of twelve of the latter.—(Hear, hear.) Now he (Lord Brougham) believed that to be an exaggeration. It had been said that they were now dealing only with the remains or fragments of the old navigation-laws. But he maintained that these fragments were of a large or gigantic size, and in dealing with them he conceived they should not be dealt with in the contemptuous manner which the pro moters of the present measure treated them. Under the remains of that system no less than 1,500,000 tons of shipping were engaged—no less than 20,000 seamen were employed—and a capital of near 5,000,0001. em barked.—(Hear, hear.) Yet it was said that the present syStem could not be continued, chiefly on account of the discontent of Canada. With respect to the trade by the St. Lawrence with the United States, he contended there was perfect freedom of trade between Canada and the United States, and that either might export to the other in their own shipping. What had induced Mr. Pitt to make a change in the navigation-laws of his time was the great changes which bad taken place in the West Indies, the colonies, and the South American States, since the passing of the 12th of Charles l e s ; ip o s a r s l uo d, s hahnraddo acted ee ste was id° o ns n ait in reart Southt, I p i 11 in n s c . 11. They h a d to b e su i ted to the new condition of the pl ß e r a a z l also America, 3 that iceex M se eod r , . a to ol the e t h absolutely em ,an colonies, adapt and ou it r law b 2e atmoethemdtrenaetces sar necessary as that foreign we should countries, and not as colonies. But even this had not been done without great sacrifices. If Noble Lords would look to our returns of seamen and tonnage for six years before 1822, and fur the six years following, they would find that our tonnage had fallen off to the extent of 1,300 vessels, measuring 150,000 tense in the course of the six years after 1822, and that it did not recover itself for sixteen years.—(llear.) He rested this assertion, not on returns made w ith reference to this particular question, but on the annual returns made from 1822 to 1838, before this subject was agitated. He should now come to what he considered the gist of the ques tion, which Ise could net help thinking his Noble Friend opposite, conscious of the weakness of his case, had most carefully avoided. The policy of the navigation-laws —a policy continued by Mr. Huslcisbon through all, he would not say the changes, but the alterations which he proposed, was founded on the principle laid down by Adam Sniith, that the great object of every island w hose coasts were extensive compared with its inland territory, ought to be to encourage by all reasonable means the formation of a mercantile navy, as the feun datien of a military navy, because it was impossible to wit hoe, the other.—(Hear, hear.) His cppoit?, her. be alluded to Bonaparte's to •P 8) - .oionieti, and es.rnmeree, " had taken a le of speech than any . nsultiplicatioa ot g"lcr hit"' Ale ugh.) The fact was, that Bona figures by 150.—( dame , in utteri colonies,o words, breathed a wish hostile to shipsug these a nd cog=erce.—(" No, no," from Noble T , ti Peers on the Ministerial side.) The best prof of it was an anecdote which arose on an occasion which he was old enough to rscollcct—the occasion of a festival at Guild hall, at ei hich he was present, and at which Mr. Pitt gave as a toast, " The Ships, Colonies, and Commerce of England."—(Bear, hear.) That was a most able retort on Napoleon, but would have been pointless if ail that Napoleon wished was ships, and colonies, and com met es-. True, he had no mercantile navy—no commerce, no colonies—and the reason was because England had ships, colonies, and commerce, because she bad fostered the growth of that magnificent mercantile marine—be cause she 114(1 encouraged that without which she never would have had a nary at all, because she had for the last 150 years abided by that policy without deviation, except to adopt successive changes to keep that policy intact, for the purpose of promoting not merely the commerce of the country, but the growth of a mere In gle nary and the building of ships and the raising of men.—(Hear.) He was stating now what he had stated in a publication on this subject so long ago as the year 1802. He had in that work attempted to show the bear ing of the principles of his great master, Adam Smith, and had maintained the great advantage of colonies to the mother country. Those zealous individuals who were what were called free-traders never cessal cpoting Adam Smith as a great authority, although they wished as to have no colonies whatever.—(Hcar, bear.) They considered the colonial trade as a foreign trade, only returning one capital, but it was an abuse of terms to call our colonial trade a foreign trade. It replaced two capitals, and was in all essentials a home trade. To trade with Jamaica instead of Brsz:l was to replace two capitals, the English capital and the Jamaica capital. If any person would look to the valleys of Westmore land or Lanca s hi re , or go i ng f urther nort h exa mine the counties of Inv e r ness an d It ess, h o wou ld see a proof of the soundness of thi s d octr i ne i n the very name s of the villas—names suggestive oP Jamaica, dad, and Demerara, and showing that the owners had built their houses, had cultivated their grounds, and ha; made the barren heath smile, by the fortunes accumu lated Barbedoes, 'Trini dad, in Jamaica, Barbadoes, and our other West possessions.—(l4ear hear.) It became, there fore, not merely our national glory, but our commercial prosperity, to have these magnificent colonial estubiish ments. They were, in fact, but extensions of the terri tory of cur native land. Providence had bountifully cast our lot in an island fertile ireagricultural resources, and under a climate well calculated to produce habits of daring and industry in cur population. Iu one respect, however, cur country was limited—it was limited in variety of production. The produce was not that on which a tropical sun had shone. But the wis dom and gallantry of our ancestors had carried across the seas— "The flag which braved a Thousand years The battle and the breeze." They had planted it in the Antilles—in South America —in the Cape—in India—and even in China itself ; and had conquered for us the advantages of other stills and other climates.—(Hear, hear.) Should We then aban don this empire ?—(No.) No, said his Noble Friend opposite. He perfectly agreed with his Noble Friend in the cosmopolitan principle of wishing well to every country ; but than ho could not go quite so far as his Noble Friend, and allow foreigners to share ie that magnificent colonial empire, the outlines of which he had feebly attempted ,,.n to sketch, skeptcleba.sulriee tcoourledeinpervoecratcel sent that America should have all the benefit s , and ( b l e le l a e r f , t hear.) that n Up , n good bat question the Government of the United Sta•es had been sounded, and something like a disavowal had been put forth of the concessions promised by Mr. Baucroft. Now this Bill proposed to give an American or any other foreign ship, in a commercial point of view, the same hem fit in the trade of this country as a British ship. It might bring home our colonial produce and take out our ex p er t s to our colonies, without any equivalent advantage to us, the foreigner not contributing one shilling to the expense of ourSomttlechthe"ibthuilrdeigngardef totbe colonial ships and the breeding of sailors , h is Nobl e Friend opposite colonial trtt d„. government. ivith respect had said that no danger was to be appreheede , e. If so, whence the petitions on the subject? how came the Liverpool petitions to be signed by as many as 47,000 persons? The Earl of HARROWBY: — And by the corporation. Lord BROUG H AM :—And, as his Noble Friend, who once represented Liverpool, suggested, " and by the corporation." Sir James Gra ham mi ght flatter himself that Liverpool was in favour of the Bill b ecause its two Members supported it, if he could only explain away the signatures. In the very Bill itself he found an ally. It began by repealing a number of Acts, but the first section petition front that town aga inst the Bill, with it s 47,000 of h closely"—what?—the whole coastin tradedistrustet.thet ecoun try.—(llear, hear.) Why this principle stated that it was also intended to . protect strictly and e to protect the home trade, acd it proposed to continue .the colonial?—(Hear.) t) withdraw protection from e or free trade in navigation? Upon what principle was Not surely because the coastin g trade was the nurser y our best seamen, for that w a s the p rinci p le u p on ofw hich the whole of the navigation - laws rested. " Oh,' , said his Noble Friend , " ever y bod y should be allowed to carry his produce to market as cheaply as he could." Why, then, continue the restriction on the bringing of coals from Newcastle, or on the shipment of wheat from the corn-growing districts to the market of the metropolis?—(llear.) Why s, as the agriculturist not to have the same benefit as the merchant in the cheap conveyance of his produce? Why was it that all traffic on our rivers and canals and along our coasts should bo by British born subjects alone? But why not do it as well for the internal us the coasting trade? For the obvious reason, that they entertained no strong desire to encourage the class of drovers and waggoners. Evidence had been adduced to show why the proposed change should take place. Now, some of the evidence adduced was most astonishing. For instance, Mr. Mitchell stated that two Englishmen would do as much work as twelve Russians. But his evidence went on to show that a groat mass of the masters were so ignorant as to be usable to read or write. Now he (Lord Brougham) well knew men who had had ten times the experience of Mr. Mit chell, who had been three times as long employed in the shipping trade, and n hose respectability was beyond all question—some of them being as good Whigs as his Noble Friends opposite-- (Laughter) —and as zealous for the doctrine of free trade—ani these men had given him their distinct assur ance t h at such had not b een t h e case wiehin their expe r i ence , and that Mr. Mitchell must have been unfortu na t e if h e bud employed capta i ns, 50 per cent. of whom cou ld not read or wr i te. —(H ear .) He now came to th e marrow and p i th o f th e w h o l e question. Could the foreigner, after this sweeping measure should become law, undersell us in our two great articles of building ships and of navigating was a shipowner of ships?—(Hear, hear.) U pon that quest i on i ssue was joined. lie was about t o prove that th i s wou ld b e th e case. The first witness examined the port of Leitb, and hi s evidence was con fi rme d by other persons. He s t ated that he b a d t r i e d t o build a ship of 500 tons in the most economical man ner possible before this question arose, and without regard to it. The vessel cost him 201. per ton. Now, deducting the 21. per ton for the duty on timber, which might be abolished, that would leave the cost of the vessel 181. per ton. 'What would have been the cost of building the same ship at Dantzic? Why, 12/. per ton. —(Hear, hear.) But even supposing the charges to be 141. or 151, and 121., that would be fatal.—([leer, hear.) When they spoke of ship building in England, they spoke of an immense interest. A capital of no less than 16,000,000/. was embarked. The sum annually spent in the building of ships was 3,000.000/. The outfit and repairs amounted to 8,000,000/—(Hear, hear.) The number of shipwrights ' employed was about 80,000 at 4s. per day —a set of men as industrious, as sober, as; skilful, as any men of which the country could boast.—(Hear.) This was an immense interest, a great and magnificent branch of business with which Par liament was making free, an d upon which ho warned them not unduly to lay a rude band.—(Hea r, hear.) Mr. Minton, an American, was examined, and after wards some Russians and Prussians, and all gave evi dence, every man for himself. Now with respect to wages. The wages of the master in the Baltic were 31. per month, and five per cent. upon the tonnage, making altogether about 51. per month In Belgium and Holland the master received only about 41 . But what did he receive in England? 8/:loS.—:(Hear, hear) —Bl. 10s., according to Mr. Mitchell, for a man who could neither read nor write, and Si. for a Prussian, who could do both.—(A laugh.) The men in the Baltic and the other countries to which he had referred re ceived from 30s. to 355. For mo n th ; i n England, 31. (Hear, hear.) The price of food here was Is. 3d. per day; in those other countries, Bd.—Cfl ear , h ear.) Th i s was the result of the comparison of English shipbuild ing and English navigation between this country and foreign ports; and if anybody would ltfek at the relative numbers and sums, and observe the foundation in the distance of material and the different habits of the people in the one case, and, in the other, the nearness of the material and the other habits of the people—if any one would look at those two points, the reason of the thing going along with the facts and figures—they would come to this conclusion, that it is impossible, without protection, for this country to enter into suc cessful competition with the United States and the Baltic, either in the building of ships or the sailing of them.—(Cheers.) Now, what did this Bill do ? It strengthened the monopoly of the coasting trade, and it continued the most oppressive of all the Navigation Act regulations, the provision that every British ship shall be manned by an English master, and that three-fourths of the crew shall be Englishmen.—(Hear, hear.) But why did the Bill retain the three fourths? For this reason :—They dared not give it up—they knew how much they depended upon these seatuen.—(Bear, hear.) They knew what the consequences of not having them Seould be; and that all they could do and preach to these men about free trade—about the navigation-laws and the fragments of the system s or tell t hem from "Pepy's Diary" down to this day, would never preserve to them or create (Ch.) w h eeeer said, d , u y t e h u o y m p h o a r y t e a n o t e e n: f a e s e i r t t h t o fe m r a e i i g n t e a e i r n s ; t , h , for them th a t must i nva l ua bl e b ody of British seamen.— ma e le m ut . he (Lord Brougham) thought they could not mix one fourth foreigners with three-fourths English. That would bo impossible. They might pass the Bill, but they would never be able to place one-fourth foreigners among three-fourths British seamen. And why ? Be cause they must have the same wages, they must eat the same food, and could not speak the same language.—(Checrs.) But this would happen. Pass this Bill, inconsistent in itself, suicidal in respect to the coasting trade, and what would be the consequence? The English trader, or shipowner, or merchant would employ a foreign ship—(Hear, hear)—and not one fourth, but four-fourths.—(Hear , ) That would be the inevitable result. He would beseech their Lordships to pause before placing So great an interest in jeopardy -4,000,000 of tons of shipping, navigated b y 0 :30,000 wee, these m en b e ing the nursery for our navy. Wh at was the consequence of having these men? A navy, which rides triumphantly upon every se a . Wh at wou ld be the other consequ e nce? What war breaks out—owing MAY 8, 1849. to the vile, meddling, inconsistent, and false policy every ! where pursued by this country—the policy of touching . everything, and gresping nothing—forgetting the gar dener's proverb. "he who would touch a nettle must grasp it. If they went on in an open way they might foresee a war, and they would be prepared for it. Through no fault of their own, through no mistake in their policy, yet they might be involved in a war, and then how was their navy to be manned and maintained? Before that series of immortal victories which had handed down to fame the names of our St. Vincenta and our Nelsons, cur Duncans and our Howes, and which were the glory of our military service--just previous to the breaking out of the war which led to then brilliant and immortal achieve ments, they had only 16,000 sailors in the navy in all their ports and in all the King's ships. In less than six weeks 35,000 were added to the number.—(Cheers.) Whence came they? were they landsmen they had en listed? No such thing. They were sailors from the mercantile marine. When the war had exhausted the navy, and they had had recourse to the fatal system cf eeltsling quota men, as they were called, from the pa rishes, there was seen one of the most disgraceful rcencs which the country bad ever known—the mutiny at the Nore was entirely owing to their having recourse to landsmen in manning their ships. In place of the 16 000 seamen, their numbers now were nearly doubled —instead of 16,000 being maintained on a peace estab lishment, they had now 32,000 or 33,000, and there fore the increase in the mercantile navy as a nursery for the Royal navy was not out of proportion. He spoke in times when ho would be a bold man who would take upon himself to predict that the peace of Europe would be maintained. God avert the omen, but when they looked across the Channel and saw a Republic whose fate was yet suspended in the ba lance and which rested upon a comprehensive military organization, who could say how long the peace of the world would be maintained? He knew very well why the troops had been sent to Civita, Vecchia; it was neither to restore the Pope or because Austtia, bad threatened to interfere; it was because no French NU- nieter—no French President—durst refuse the French people, at least the people of Paris, an object on which they were bent. That was why the troops had been sent to the Papal States; that was why th general in command had written a letter for publication in Paris, declaring that he had 'ended all his troops without firing a shot. Why should they have fired a shot when there was no one to oppose them? Who could answer for the peace of Europe with that population in such a state? a population which had nearly driven the most peace able Minister under Louis Philippe to march an army across the Alps. He rejoiced at the great and glorious victories obtained by Marshal Radetzky, and only la mented that he had not completed his work by occupying Turin.—(Hear.) That was an error, because such an act of foolish forbearance bad led to bloodshed at Genoa and elsewhere. The great victories and the humanity of Marshal Radetzay had preserved Piedmont; Genoa was now at peace, and the people were now throwing off the yoke of the most base and degraded mob leaders which had ever infested a country, and he trusted that the Romans were now pacified, and zealously setting about the establishment of order. Still no wan could leok at the peninsula and be sure of the continuance of peace. In Germany, from the Baltic to the Adriatic, there was one disposition animating all breasts, a de sire to shale existing institutions, and subvert the thrones which yet remained. The Russians had marched to the. north, in order to save Hungary from the anarchy induced by her Polish invaders. Look ing at all there things, who could predict with confi dence that at the end of three months all Europe would remain in a state of perfect peace?—(Hear.) Was that time well chosen for making such a change? They were in 1849, the year atter that year of revolutions, 1848, before the waves of rebellion had subsided—was that the time for making a great and sweeping change in that system by which the navy had been created and maintained—was it at such a time that they were about to reduce their thousand ships to hundreds—was it at such a time as that, when they mi g ht b e c a ll e d u pon to struggle for very existence—was unit the time to break up that system which provided such a nursery for the navy? At any time it must be impolitic, but it was hardly safe to do it then. Was there any pressure fur the measure—any pressure from without? The friends of the Government were saying that they would do no thing—they were not bold Ministers. Now boldness was an excellent thing in any one; in a Minister it was an admirable quality—boldness of the right kind, boldness to refuse all pressure from without—(Hear, hear) — boldness to conceive measures for the good of the coun try, and boldness to propose them, careless to whom he might give offence. There was another kind of boldness —a boldness in bringing forward largo measures and put ting great interests in jeopardy. '1 hat was a boldness for which he had no admiration. That was a boldness; but the Minister was not bold at his own cost and charges, not bold in las own person, bat vicariously—a boldness wherein the Minister did not confront his enemies, but made the country confront its perils. If they gave up that nursery for their seamen, why should they go on spending the fifteen or sixteen millions on the army and navy? A certain sect had lately sprung up, calling themselves "free-traders," but with whom real free traders could hold no communion, and employed them selves in preaching the reduction of all our great esta blishments. He was strongly of opinion that the step they were invited to take by her Majesty's Government was one which they could not wisely nor safely take, because if once taken they could not retrace it. The coasting trade was to be left untouched, and the re straints on the seamen were not abrogated; so that another agitation would be got up—another Ricardo would spring up, in order to have the last remnant of the system thrown overboard; and if the Bill passed he would say that it would be difficult to meet them. lie had stated the grounds upon which he rested his oppo sition to the tuPnsure. He had looked at the ques tion and applied his mind to its consideration with an absolute forbearance of all party motives —a throwing over of all personal feelings whatever, and he had discharged his duty in stating his opinion to the House. It was for their Lordships to deal with the measure. If the Bill were rejected, certain consequences, they were told, would result. Now, if it were a matter of minor importance he wind.' have no hesitation in yield ing to his Noble Friend, for he desired no change, but when the fate of the mercantile marine, as well as the safety of the royal navy was at stake, his duty compelled him to a strenuous opposition to the measure the conse quence of which he so much dreaded. He desired no change whatever—he desired success to no party what ever, except to those who woule honestly and manfully do their duty to the Queen and their country.—(Cheers.) What would be the effect of the measure upon the accursed slave trade? It would increase and stimulate that trade; for whatever tended to cheapen the car riage of sugar of Brazil would increase the slave trade on the coasts of Africa. When that fact was thrown into the bitter cup to sweeten it, he could assure their Lordships that it was a question on which he could come to no compromise whatever. Believing his argu ments to be sound, as an honest man, as an English man, and as a Peer of Parliament, ho felt bound to say that ho must oppose the further progress of the measure. Lord GRANVILLE did not think he was called upon to enter into the question as to whether this Bill inter fered with the free-trade policy, nor to follow the Noble Lord in the various observations addressed by him to their Lordships' House; but it certainly did appear to him with respect to tho measure of free trade, and to the proposed change in the navigation-law r, that the more they endeavoured to remove restrictions from com merce, and the more they endeavoured to destroy CTell a limited monopoly, the better it would prove for the in terests of the country. The Noble and Learned Lord (Lord Brougham) had alluded to the commercial diffi culties of the question, and in that respect was more in clined to believe the opinions of the :shipowners. Now as to the petitions of the shipowners, it was to be ob served that they were the persons to whom they meant to apply the stimulus of' competition. lie bad a great respect for the shipowners, and he did not think they would willingly mislead the public; but ho doubted whether they themselves felt the alarms which they stated they apprehended from the passing of this measure —(Hear, hear.) There were not more ships for sale at the present time than in former years, and ships were in progress of being built at Southampton and other places. Ho doubted whether ninny who took part against the present measure knew what the provisions of the navigation-laws were, or how they would be affected by their repeal.—(Hear, hear.) They had a large body of merchants who were apprehending great danger from the repeal of these laws. Seeing. however, the great increase of trade which had taken place cf late years, seal that free-trade had added to the wealth of the country, and materially increased the car rying trade, he thought it was necessary that ncorre spornling change should take place in their maritime system. He would now allude to their warehousing system, and it appealed that the American Government had sent a gentleman over to this country to inquire into its operation, and to make himself acquainted with the working of the law. That gentleman had made a report, and be held in his hand an American paper, in which the operation of the warehousing system was inv.stigat d and strongly recommended for adop tion in America, on account of its advantages to the commerce, the tonnage, and the • revenue.—(Bear, hear.) The benefit the system had conferred on the country could not indeed be denied. Under their naviga tion-laws the foreigner might send his produce in any ship he pleased, while at the same time if a merchant in their colonies did so, the ships and cargo would be seized. —(lean) The fact was, that the merchants found trade forced into a certain channel by. the navigation laws, and it might be if that channel was somewhat widened it would bring in competitors, which would of course diminish the profits of those hitherto engaged in the shipping trade. The Noble Lord then referred to the evidence given before the Lords' Committee as to the operation of the navigation-laws, and contended that no one could doubt the advantages which a relaxation of those laws would confer on the country. ' The merchant win sure to do better by being leis to himself. The Noble Lord next referred to shipping returns for a number of years past, for the purpose of showing the advantages which competition secured, and especially in regulating the prices of freight. lie next a ll u ded to that' b ra nch of the question which was inv olved in ship bu ing, and said that whatev er mi g ht be the car as regarded a certain class of vessels , it was q uite certain that ships of the bettei class could be built cheaper in this country than in any other part o f the world. The. Bill on the table, if passed into law would be a self-acting law. If any danger existed of competition between this coun try and America, it would be well to strike while the iron was hot, and place the commerce carried on between the countries on a safe and solid footing.—(Hear, hear.) He did not think it would become the greatest commer cial cou ntry in the world to be g in a war of tariffs.— (llee r, hear.) It• was complained that when they were rutting loose the ha , :go trade, they bad not at the same Lime let loose the wasting trade also; but as to the latter it was clear that eo foreigner would enter into competi tion with them. As to the British sailor, he believed pursuits, and • him to have a natural aptitude for nutrition that all he wanted was good treatment and to be fairly remunerated. He believed that two-thirds of the seamen in the American service were British, and although the Noble and Learned Lord (Lord Brougham) had said that the Americana worked their seamen harder and fed them worse, ho (Lord Granville) could not understand, if that were the case, how it teas that so many of the Bri tish seamen should enter into the American service. In regard to the statistiesl part of the subject, he suspected from the manner in which the Noble and Learned Lord who had last spoke had inveighed against statistics, that he had found those statistics to tell against himself.— (Hear, hear.) Ile thought, however, considering the high position that Noble Lord occupied—the many emi nent stations and exalted offices he bad held under the Crown, as well as considering the commanding and sar castic natttre of his eloquence—that he ought not to have emne down there and made the unjust and unprovoked attack ho had done on Mr. Porter—(Hear, hear)— of the Board of Trade. That Gentl eman could not be there to answer for himself . ; and, therefore, the attack wes all the more uncourteous. That gentleman having been desired to make up a statement of the comparative ! increase which had taken place in protected and unpro tected trade, had stated that while protected trade had only increased 94 per cent., unprotected trade had in cream d 200 per cent. That statement was in the main correct, and it showed that the navigation-laws, instead of increasing, was a drawback upon the increase of trade. With regard to Denmark, where they could build ships much cheaper than in this country, and conse quently had in that respect the advantage of them, yet it was a curious fact, that the direct trade of Denmark should be three times as Much as its indirect, and that they were at this moment advertising for British sea men to man their vessels. So far as America was con cerned, there could be no-dread of competition. It was true that since 1815 the tennage of American vessels had increased 108 per cent., the great increase being en the coasting trade, while our trade had increased 45 per cent. But yeas there no difference in the popula tion of the two countries? It was the fact, that while in that time the population of this country had only in creased 57 per cent., that of America had increased 143 or 144 per cent. So that while the tonnage of American ships had increased as 362, its population had increased 361. lie at once admitted that could ho see the slightest chance of this Bill injuring their commercial marine, and committing the ravage on commerce which it was predicted it would do, ho would oppose it most strenuously; but seeing that the people of this country were as able to compete in shipbuilding, as well as in everything else, he had no fear that any of the evils predicted would befall them. At this moment there was no country which had ships and sailors to compete with them at once; the change must be gradual, and therefore time would be given before the struggle cline, and as to the result of that struggle he had no doubt. Lord BIiOUGHAM, in explanation, said that Mr. Porter was a witness examined b t f ore ie Committee of their Lordships' House, and therefore it was his right and duty to animadvert upon his evidence. L)rd - 00LOLIESTER said before making any altera tion in these laws, they ought to learn what were the in tentions of their authors and what had been • their re sults. Lord STRANGFORD said that though he sat close to the Noble Lord (Lord Colchester), yet he could not hear one word in consequence of the noise below the bar. Lord COLCHESTER resumed, but was equally in audible throughout. His arguments went to show how protection had and would operate beneficially on the ' capital, commerce, and interest of shipbuilders and sea men of this country. The Duke of ARGYLE felt it his duty to give his reasons for voting in favour of the Bill. fie considered that there were three great general points on which that measure should be discussed. First, on the principal of free trade; secondly, its own intrinsic merit; and, thirdly, on the political situation of the country. On the Grit ho believed that his opinions did not disagree with those of their Lordships. The arguments of the Protec tionists wculd go back to a repeal the reciprocity treaties; but he confessed that he could see much in mo dern commerce to encourage them to go forward in the principles of relaxation, although their acts might not be based upon reciprccity. It appeared to him that several natural causes were in eperation to encourage the Baltic powers in securing the direct trade to their shipping. In considering the consequences of reciprocity, they should also have some consideration for the certain cense. quences which must have resul ed from the adoption of a contrary policy. They could not take a middle course; they must have reciprocity either iu restriction or relaxation, and in either alternative it behoved them to consid( r the results of this retaliatory policy. From a very able answer to Mr. Ricardo's " Anatomy of the Navigation Laws," entitled " Mr. Ricardo's Anatomy of the Navigation Laws Dissected," it appeared that in 1815 the reciprocity treaties were passed, and that in 1830 the English tonnage reached the height from which it fell in 1790, but which it had previously been unable to attain. From the returns of the tonnage in the Baltic trade, also, it appeared that the English tonnage exceeded 22-fold that of the Baltic Powers; and hence arose the presumption that when the Baltic ships were admitted to competition in foreign quarters, they would not very considerably distress them. If he thought the t this measure were at all calculated to produce a prejudicial effect on the commerce of the country, no consideration whatever—not even the threatened resig uation of the Government should induce him to s upp or t it. But believing that it had no such tendency, he should not hesitate to give it his unqualified and cordial assent. The Earl of ELLENBOROUGFI said he agreed with his Noble Friend near him, that between the question of free trade, and the question raised by this Bill, there wai no connexion whatever. On termer occasions, when he happened to be in England, he had voted for mea sures, the effect of which was to produce a relaxation in their commercial code. Be had voted for those mea sures because he thought they tended to increase the wealth of the country, without danger to its essential in terests. Ile would vote against this measure, because he believed, that while it might possibly tend to increase the wealth of the country, it went directly to under mine one of its nearest and most i mportant i nterests . It was impossible to exaggerate the importance of looking to the mercantile navy as the source from whence the navy of the country was to ba recruited. lip to the present time they had maintained their supre macy at sea with honour and advantage t 3 themselves, and he did not doubt that were they called upon to fight to morrow, their men would distinguish themselves for their courage end national devotion, as they had ever done. But the maintenance of their supremacy would depend upon the issuo of the fight, and though he hoped it would not be doubtful, still he could not disguise the fact that much would depend upon the commencement of the battle, an.' that France at the present moment was better prepared than they. She had a lsrger disposable force ready to engage in Euro pean warfare, the same number of ships, with a larger number of men and marines, and better means of re cruiting them. In considering that fact, and the ease with which a force might be transported from point to point, by a steam navy, it behoved them to be ex tremely cautious how, by a measure of this sort, they rendered their position still weaker by comparison. The Noble Lard then referred to to a petition from a body of persons in the West Indies, setting forth the importance of the interests of trade, and of relaxing the restrictions affecting it. Ho also referred to the Cana dians, who, if any body were entitled more than another to a relaxation in their favour of the restrictions on na vigation, were, in his opinion, molt so; but he would not, he said, be swayed by eilh,r West Indian or Ca nedian; he should rather be directed in this question by a reference to the more immediate interests of Eng lishmen. He felt that if the inhabitants of the pro vinces of this great empire banded themselves together in a mutual compact for mutual benefits, they might defy the world, but if they made the acquisition of wealth the sole and main object of their legislation, be assured they would fall as other nations had dune be fore them, and when they fell, it would be "unwept, unhonoured, and disgraced." The Elul of CARLISLE rose, and moved that the debate be adjourned to this day. Their Lordships adjourned at a Quarter past Twelve o'clock. APPEARANCE OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS LAST EVENINCL—The lobbies and avenues to the House of Lords last evening were crowded as early as four o'clock by those persons who were fortunate enough to possess Peers' orders to the strangers' gallery, which wascrowded to excess. The whole of the space below the bar was likewise fully occupied, as it always is on the evening of a great discussion. The space at the foot of the throne was crowded by gentlemen possessiog the right of entree. In the Commons' galery there were about twenty gentlemen, and the ladies' gallery, on the opposite side, was more than half filled with elegantly dressed ladies, who appeared to take a great interest in the proceedings. The attendance of Peers was early and numerous, the Marquis of Lansdowne appearing in full dress—" his constant custom " on field nights. DEBUT OF Mn. F. PEEL IN THE HOUSE OF COM MONS.—The son of Sir Robert Peel, the newly-elected Member fur Leominster, made his maiden speech last evening, in favour of the second reading of the Bill for the emancipation of the Jews, and never have we heard a more successful maiden speech. The Hon. Gentleman has all the requisites for an orator. In voce , and manner , and personal appearance, he bears a great resemblance to his illustrious father. His speech was not only eloquent but logical, and full of sound sense. He is in every way worthy of his sire. He was much cheered, more particularly from the Ministerial benches, and has evidently done that which few Members do in a maiden speech, secured the ear of the House of Com- LOOM BURGLARY.—A daring attempt was made on Sa turday night last to break into the back premises of Messrs. Giilott, Admiralty tailors, :26, Strand; toiled in their object by the strength of the fastenings, the thieves turned their attention to the houses on either side, both of which they succeeded in entering. They carried off a considcrable booty from the .Lowther Bazaar, and did much damage to 131. r. Taylor's, No. 37, by breaking open desks, drawers, &e., but fortunately did not find much there to reward their labours. The establishment of an American line of steam ships between New York end Havre is no longer doubt ful ; and the steam ship Franklin, which is as yet but halt-fini s h e d, h as been purchased for the service by Mews. Fox and Livingston, of New York. She will be ready for sea in about three months ; and the keel of a second steamer is to be immediately laid down, — Liverpool Albion. S Xi tr .P - - , --.-e ARLIAIVIEN TARY InVISRANS.- -- . " P--.N af t . - ' • -4, ,s- ~*%,-.• .. ;ply,. (From the Votes and i' ro ceedin.gs of the House of Commosw.) - ,-%.:4 . 44. 41 1 s 4 MONDAY, STAY 7. Ft. PARLIAMENTARY OATHS BILL. ..::10 . .i4i Order for Second R ea di ng read; Motion male, and Question- ' proposed, " That th e Bill b e now read a secottittinie :7-.. aV;,101. Amendment proposed, t o l eave] oat the worcf 4 eudVr,'? and at' '. the end of the Question to add the words " upon this day six months :"--. Questiou put, " That the word ' now' stand part of the Question." The House divided: MAJ OR ITY —AYES , 278. Abdy, T. N. Gibson, T. M. Paget, Lord G. Adair, Hugh E. Gladstone, W. E. Palmer, Roundel! Adair, R. Shafto Glyn, G. C. Palmerston, Vis. Adare, Viscount Grace, O. D. Parker, John Aglionby, H. A. Graham, Sir J. Pearson, Charles Alcock, Thomas Granger, T. C. .Pechell. Captain - - Anderson, Arthur Greene, John Peel,;Sir Robert Anson, Colonel Grenfell, C. P. Peel, Frederick Armstrong, Sir A. Grenfell, Charles W. Perfect. _Robert Armstrong, R.'l3. Grey, Sir George Philips, Sir G. R. Arundel, Earl of Grey, Ralph W. Pigott, Francis Bagshaw, John Guest, Sir John l'ilkington, James Baines, M. T. HagEitt, F. It. Pinney, W. Baring, Sir F. T. Ilailyburton, Lord J. Power, Nicholas Bass, Thomas Hamer, Sir John Powlett. Lord W. • Bellew, u. M. Ilardeastle, J. A. Pryse, Pryse . . Berkeley, Captain Harris, Richard Pusey, Philip Berkeley, H. F. Hawes, Benj. Rawdon, Colonel Berkeley. C. L. G. Hay, Lord J. Reynolds, John Bernal, Ralph Hasler, W. G. Ricardo, Osman Birch, Mr Thomas Ileadlam, Thomas Rice, E. R. !Rockall, S. W. Heatitcoat, John Rich, Henry Blake. Martin J. Ileneage, Edward Itobartes, T. J. Illewitt, Reginald Henry, Alexander Roebuek, J. A. Brand, Thomas Herbert, IL A. Readily, Sir John Bright, John Ileyweod, James Russell, Lord J. Brockman, E. D. lleyworth, L. Russell, E. Brotherton, J. HindleY, Charles Russell, F. C. Brown, W. Hobhouse, Sir J. Rutherford, A. Browne, R. D. Ilobhouse, T. B. Farlleir, Jokn Bu!keley, Sir R. Bodges, T. L. Salwey, Colonel Banbury, Edward Hogg, Sir J. Sanders, George Buxton, Sir E. Hollond, Robert Scholelleld, W. Callaghan, D. Horsman, E. Scully, Francis Cardwell, E. Howard, Lord E. Seymour, Sir H. B. Carter, John B. Howard, C. W. Seymour, Lord Caulfeild, J. M. Howard, Sir It. Shea to, R. D. Cavendish, C. C. Hatt, William Shell, R. L. Cavendish, W. G. Jackson, William Shelburne, Earl of Cayley, E. S. Jermyn, Earl : Sheridan, R. B. Charters, Francis Jervis, Sir John Smith, R. Y. Cholmcley, Sir M. Johnstone, Sir J. Smith, J. A.: Clay, James Keogh, William Smith, John B. Clay, Sir W. Keppel, George T. Smythe, G. Clements, Charles Kershaw, James Somers, J. 2.1 ' Clerk, Sir G. King, P. J. Somerville, Sir W. Clifford, Henry M. Labouchere, Henry Stansfield, W. R.C.. Cobden, Richard Langston, J. H. Stanton, W. S., Cocaburu, Alex. Lascelles, W. S. Staunton, Sir G. Coke, E..K. '1 Lawless, Cecil Strickland, Sir G. Colebrooke, Sir T. Lemon, Sir Charles Stuart. Lord D. Collins, W. Leonard, T. B. Stuart, Lord J. Cowan, Charles Lewis, G. C. Talbot, C. R. Cowper, W F. Lincoln, Earl of Talbot, J. H. Craig, W. G. Loch, James Tal:ourd, Sergeant Crawford, W. S. Locke, Joseph Tancred, H. W. Crowdei% R. B. LushingWn, Charles Tenison, E. K. Currie, Raikes M`Cullagh, W. T. Tennent, I- . J. Dalrymple, Captain M'Gregor, John Thicknesse, Ralph Davie, Sir 11. Meagher, 1 homes Thompson, Colonel Dawson, T. V. Maitland, T. Thompson, George Denison, Edmund Mangles, R. D. Thornely, Thomas Denison, W. J. Marshall, J. G. Tollemachc, F. I. Devereux, J. T. Marshall, William Towncley, John Disraeli, B. Martin, C. W. lownley, R. G. Duff, George S. Martin, Samuel Townshend, Captain Duke, Sir J. Melguad, Viscount Traill, George Duncan,_Viscount Matheson, James Trelawny, J. S. Duncan, George Matheson, Colonel Urquhart, David Dundas, Admiral Milner, IV. M. Vane, Lord 11. Dundas, Sir David Mines, R. M. Verney Sir 11. Ebrington, Viscount Milton, Viscount Villiers, Charles Ellice, E., jun. Mitchell, A. T. Vivian, J. IL Ellis, John Moffatt, George Wall, C. B. Elliot, J. E. Molesworth, Sir W. Walmsley, Sir J. Evans, Sir De Lacy Monsen. William Walter, John Evans, William Morris, David Watkins, Colonel E wart, William Mostyn, E. M. Wawn, J. T. Fagan, William Mowatt, Francis Westhead ,J. P. Fergus, John Mulgrave, Earl Wilcox, Brodie Ferguson, Colonel Muntz, G. F. Williams, John Ferguson, Sir R. Norreys, Lord Willyams, H. Fitzroy, Henry Norreys, Sir D. Williamson, Slr 11. Fitzwillia.m, G. W. Nugent, sir Percy Wilson, James Foley, J. 11. O'Brien, Joha Wilson, Matthew Fordyce, A. D. O'Connell, J. Wood, Sir Charles Forster, Matthew O'Connor, Feargus Wood, W. P. Foitescue, Chichester O'Flaberty, Anthony Woretly, J. S. Fortescue, J. W. Ogle, S. C. Wrightson, W. B. Fox, Richard It. Ord, W. Wyld, James Fox, W. J. Oswald, A. Freestun, Colonel Owen, Sir J. ya,Lizaa. French, F. Paget, Lord A. 11111, Lord M. Gaskell, J. M. Paget, Lord Clarence Tuthell, 11. MINORITY—NOES, 185. Acland, Sir T. Farnham, E. B. Miles, P. W. S. Adderley, C. IS. Pure:, James Miles, William . Alexander, N. Fellowes, E. Moody, C. A. Arbuthnott, Hugh Filmer, Sir E. Morgan, 0. Arkwright, George Floyer, John MuDings, J. R. Ashley, Lord Forester, G. C. Napier, Joseph Bailey, Joseph Fuller, A. E. Neeld, John Bailey, J., jun. Fox, S. L. Ncehl, Joseph Baldock, E. it. Goddard, A. L. lge wdegate. N. Bankes, George Gooch, E. S. Noel, Gerald J. Beckett, William Gordon. Admiral Ossulston, Lord Bennet, Philip Gore, W. R. 0. Packe, C. W. Bentinck, Lord H. Goring, C. Pakington, Sir J. S. Bernard, Viscount Gouiburn, Henry ralmer, Robert Blackstone, W. S. Granby, Marquis of Peel, Colonel Blandford, Marquis Greene, Thomas Pennant, Colonel Boldero, H. G. Grogan. Edward Pigot, Sir R. Bourke, Richard S. Grosvenor, Earl Plowden, W. H. Brackley, Viscount Gwyn, Rowel Plumptre, J. P. Bramston, T• W. Hale, R. B. Portal, Melville Bremridge. Richard Raiford, Sir 11. Raphael, Alexander Brisco, M. Hall, Camel Reid. Colonel Broadley, H. Halsey, T. P. Repton, G. W. J. Bromky, Robert Hamilton, G. A. Richards, Richard Brooks, Lord Harris, Captain Rushout, Captain Brooke, Sir Arthur Ileneage, G. H. W. Sandal's, J. Bruce, C. L. C. Henley, J. W. Seynaer, H. K. Buck, L. W. Hervey, Lord A. Shirley, E. J. Bunbery, William Hildyard, It. C. Sibthorp, Colonel Burghley, Lord Hildyard, T. B. T. Simeon, John Burrell, Sir C. Hodgson, W. N. Smyth, John G. Burroughes, H. N. Hood, Sir A. Smollett, A. Chandos, , Marquis of Hope, A. Somerset, Captain Chichester, Lord J. Hotham, Lord Spooner, It. Christopher, B. Jolliffe, Sir W. G. Stafford, Augustus Christy,;Ss.muel. Jones, Captain Stanley, B. 11. Clive, R. H. Kerrison, Sir E. Stephenson, Robert Clive, H. B. Knightley, Sir C. Stuart, H. Cobbold, John C. Knox, Colonel Stuart, John Cochrane, A. Lacy, 11. C. Sturt, H. G. Codrington, Sir W. Lascelles, E. Taylor, T. E. Cole, Hon. IL A. Law, C. E. Thesiger, Sir F. Coles, Henry B. Legh, G. C. Thompson, Alderman Compton, li. C. Lennox, Lord HG. Thornhill, G. Conolly, Thomas Leslie, C. P. Tolleinache, John Corry, 11. Lindsay, Colonel Trollope, Sir;J. Cotton, W. 11. Lockhart, A. E. Turner, George Deedes, W. Lockhart, W. Tyrcll, Sir J. Dod, J. W. Long. W. Verner, Sir W. Douro, Marquis of Lopes, Sir:Ralph Yesey, Hon. T. Drumlanrig, Vie. Lowther, Colonel Villiers, Viscount Duckworth, Sir J. Lowther, Henry. Villiers, F. W. • Duucombe, A. Lygou, General Vyse, R. H. It. H. Duncembe, 0. Mackenzie, W. F. Waddington, 11. S. Duncuft, John M'Naghten, Sir E. Walpole, Spencer Du Pre, C. G. Mahon, Viscount Walsh, Str 3: East, Sir:J. B. Mandeville, Viscount Wellesley, Lord C. Edwards, Henry Manners, Lord G. Williams, T. P. Egerton, bir P. March, Earl of Worcester, Marquis Egerton, W. T. Masterman, J. Emlyn, Viscount Maunsell, T. P. MUM. . Eatcoart, J. B. B. Maxwell, J. P. Beresford, William Euston, Earl Meux, Sir Henry Inglis, Sir B. BoRKE's PEERAGE AND BARONETAGE.—The new edition of this celebrated work has just made its appear ance. The mass of information it supplies relative to the titled orders, and their wide spreading connexion, is truly remarkable. Every descendant of a noble fa mily, however remotely allied, is here recorded, as well as every intermarriage uniting the Nobility with the Gentry of the country, and every historical fact that can throw light on our ancient aristocracy. As a book of reference affording the most authentic information regarding all members of the higher classes of society, Burke's Peerage and Barocetage must ever prove most acceptable. The present edition possesses several new and important features, and is, as usual, improved by a careful revision, and re-engraving of many of the armo rial illustrations. A curious list is given of all those Peers who inherit the high distinction of quartering the Royal Plantagenet Arms ; a Summary of " Peerage Claims," follows the history of the existing Nobles, and a full account of Foreign Noblemen, who are British born subjects, is added. THE LONDON AND NORTH-WESTERN RAILWAY. —The excellent condition of this great company's per manent way and ruling stock, and the increase in the traffic receipts, will enable the directors to declare, at the next half-yearly meeting, a dividend after the rate of 7 per cent. per annum, and carry a large balance to the credit of the following—viz., the best half year's receipts. We are thoroughly satisfied that the managers of the London and North-Western Company's traffic can and will, in the course of the next two or three years, save one hundred thousand pounds sterling per annum in the working expenses of the railway.—Morning Paper. LIEUTENANT GENERAL SIR JASPER NICOLLS, K. C B.—This distinguished general officer who died on Friday at his seat near Reading, entered the army as an ensign in the 45th Foot, in the year 1793. He served under Lord Lake in the Mshratta war, and was present at the battle of Argaum and at the siege and storming of Gawilghur. In 1805 Major Media joined Lord Cath. cart's army in Hanover; in the following year he pro ceeded with the expedition under General Cranford to South America, and commanded a column at the assault on Buenos Ayres, in July, 1807. In 1808 he embarked for Spain, and commanded a battalion of the 14th Foot at the battle of Corunna in January, 180 P, for which services he received the medal; soon afterwards Lieut.- Colonel Nicolls accompanied the expedition to Walche_ryn. He subsequently served many years in theEastlnties. and during the Nepaul war he comman d ed the rce w ii h e i a ch ue fte c r o w n a q rds redth e province commanded war. At the siege of Bhurtpoareof, brigade i K n 1 n3 82 a 5 w , inn Major ltnheA Pp ri General nd a ar rles.. fi N jo iC n Ol c ig ar c r o i emdm e the d leftt b b e re 2 ac d i h n f o a n n t ry tb e d i l v B i s t i h o n w of , j i ch d an ua iv ry i: 1826. For this eminent service he was the same year nominated a K.C.B. In 1833 Sir Jasper Nicolls became Colonel of the 93d Foot; in 1840 he was removed to the colonelcy of the 33th Foot, and in 1843 to that of the sth Fusiliers, which is thus vacated. The late Sir Jasper Nicolls was also Commander-iu-Chief in the East Indies from 1839 to 1843. thOart tThE O E A! l = l ;7Y O o lli rk Y has wi b ic e . e — n so ill ILLNESS understand as to be confined to his bed daring the last few days. We are happy to state, however, that his Grace is now recovering from his serious indis position.— or ire Gazette of Saturday. SOUTHAMPTON, MONDAY, 11 O'OLOCIE rac—The Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company's ship Yacht', Captain Weeks, has just arrived here from Malta, and Gibraltar. The Pacha sailed from the Thames about five weeks since, with a large corgi) of warlike stores, comprising iron guns of heavy calibre, shot, shells, small arms, muskets, small arms, muskets. ball-cartridges, gunpowder, and other munitions of war, which have been landed at various points on the coast of Sicily, on account of the insurgent Government. The Pacha cleared out bath from London and Gibraltar os tensibly for Genoa, but after calling at the latter port proceeded on her secret mission to the island of Sicily. The Euxine arrived at Malta, frvnt Constantinople, on the night of the 26th ult., and will, perhaps, reach here to-morrow. Her Majesty's ship Hibernia sailed from Malta on the 26th ult., for England, and the Odia sailed the same night for Palermo. Tho Queen, 110, left Gibraltar for llevonport on the 30th of April, and the Apollo troop-ship sailed for England on the lit of May. NEW RAILWAY BILLS.—It is the intention of the House of Lords to pass a resolution to the effect that no railway Bill for construction. extension, or amalgama tion, shall be read a third time before the 18th of May.