The Sun. — London, England, 1820-06-28 00:00:00

PARLIAMENT, HOUSE OF LORDS, TUESO4Y, JUNK 27. The LORD CHANCEL/I.OR attended about tour o'clock, and after prayers, their Lordships ad journed till Sve &dock, when the House, re- isumed. Mr. Irving, from. the Cuslone,Hoose, presented a variety of Conimerci'al Accounts, in pursuance of recent orders of the -House ; • ,ch were or dered to be winter!. Me, Firdayson, from the Admiralty ()dice, pre -sewed ate account the ntones anti n umber j 40! and t onnage., - - nett tee Cominiseion. , in his Msjesey's yardseundeet (pair, &c. - in con seretieeee of en Addreseetsteehe House. A number:el Bills," .chietle private and local, were. brOoght op fulni the Commons, by Mr. S. *Wortley, Sir N. •Colthurse. Cot. Wodehousee and. other Members ; \e i liichevere read the first thne. The Earl of DrAptioomeee gave notice of _intention to move elle second reeding of the leish Tenement Recovery, Bill to-mot row. THE QUEEN. - Earl Gael' asked a Noble lied if any thing had 'occurred since they had last spoken 014 the sub ject, which would go to prevent the necessity of .the Committee sitting to-morrow for the pin ,posed Secret Inquiry. It that step were not Ike:tied necessary, he would be most happy to waive his intended motion of that evening: The Bail of LIVERPOOL, said, he bed no diffi culty what ever to answer the Noble Lord's ques tion. Having given his best attention to the ar guments which were urged at the Bar in support 'of the application of the Il)ustrious Personege, he *load deemed it advisable to propose that 24 hours should be allowed for consideration on the part of the House, whether or not what was advancer! Afforded sufficient ground for *dieting the course -of their proceeding, as resolved upon by the House , . And be had to state, that after the fol . • lestconsideretiou he could give it, he had no'dif -ficult ye after referring to the course of their Lord ships' proceeding: upon other occasions, es tar as those could be analogous, in saying that be was decidedly of opinion that the course their Lord hips had thongier proper to adopt was proper and `fitting for the ends Of justice ; and %vitt) reference to all the considerations of the cio•e. As long as hopes could be etorrtairied of an agreement,with- Vol the necessity of lecturing to the proceedings its sitting was from time to time postponed ; but now as these were termineted, the proceeding which their Lordships had delibe teately resolved- upon could too in common justice be avoided. therefore, the Noble Lord had any objections to offer, the present was the regular time, and lie should not trouble their •Lotefships with any farther •observatiouse at present, but reserve what he had to offer on the subject in the way of-answer to the Noble Earl." GRVY said, he had rather expected the Noble Earl would have stated his reasons, in the . first instance, for proposing that their Lordships should return to their suspended procedure of the Secret Committee. The paaticuler course the Noble Earl now proposed appeared, he thOught, to savour of diet vaccillating yet precipitous prin ciple which had guided thecoadoct at his Mejes iy's Government throughout the whole of this nnhanpy He had recently the choice of pursuing a course more consonant to the princi ples of sound policy and of strict justice. The case latteriy assumed an altered character, and there was consequently an alteration in the cir comstances upon which they, were now called upon to consider the whole question. The Noble Earl had at first admitted - there were no sufficient precedents for the present case, that there was err casesufficiently.analogous ; but as far as simili tude could obtain, the proposed course was the most consonant to the course of general Parlia mentaly proceeding. Under what circumstance-3 did the Queen stand with respect to the proceed ing as proposed ? The examinations were to be ex-pane. - A secret examination of the case- rosy go directly to affect her Majesty's character and . honour; where none were permitted to attend on her behalf ; and, above all, it was to be con; entered that their Lordships may, it was more than possible, be called upon ultimately to exer .cise their judicial functions upon -the case. The .courseproposed, he insisted, was hostile to the plainest. ptiociples of -justice. The result of the proceeding proposed would uoavoidebly produce such a bias, or the suspicion of such a ti 4, 5 ., in the public opinion, as would militate greatly in that respect against the character or estimation of their Lordships' decision, in the event of the case coming judicially before that House ; he meet object against the principle of their acting in con fidence, upon the character 6 . 1 tiny individual per son, however high in estimation. The Noble .Lord on the Woolsack had saint on a former night, that in such a case as that supposed of her Majesty, she could not be prosecuted on a charge of High Tieawri. With all deference however to- _the tateuts and the learning of that eminent person, there were opinions whicit he held in as high es• lineation as those of the Noble Lord, which had a d,fferent tendency. In ibis point of view, he deemed it unnecessary to enter into any subtle (Ilse tinclions. If the Illustrious Person were really guilty of the immoral or dissolute conduct which seemed to be imputed to her, though she may not be amenable tor - the high. offence alluded to, yet she may be- tuiworthy to be placed at the head of female society, or to - sit upon tine Throne of the realm if found guilty of other offences, and which may come judicially under their Lordships' consideration. How then, he would again ask, could ti:ey, consistently with the ' dictates of honour or of justice, erect a Secret Committee from - amOng themselves to sit in pre vious intittiry ? and n hich • would go abroad with all publicity . , to the prejudice of the character of the individual they - may have to try From the votes of the other House they saw they bad . suspended their proceedings in Ril anterior stage. On the contrary, their Lordships bought proper to admit of no de lay.. however, togociations %vete suffered to take place, and edjotaremetits followed ;adjournments ' and mostly upon the express principle of waiting for the decision of the other. House. , How that House con ic! originate a judicial proceeding he Was at a loss to know, and he believed it would net be denied, that tire only tribunal competent to entertain such charges was their Lordships' House. Every consideration which be could imagine went apinst the institution of a Secret Committee. Ot late years," such modes of pro.. eeeding were ft equent, and. siewed with increased odittiu. They ought to be, particularly "anxious that al.--fainst Unit' first proceeding .no suspicion c0441+1,-acrd-th ey_ sh mad .bc -cant ions. with re- • ference to the character, honour, or dignity of the House, not to adopt any proceeding --so ob noxious to :general disgust and suspicion.. Ot the case of his Majesty individually he knew no thing. He spoke met vly as a Member of.one 'Luise of radian/ern, It was no part y question. ' fli:'Wolyaontebded - for the general adinit(istralion of justice. No man could he more against yield• : iog to clamour than himself. But When the public . . voice proceeded Irota the .best priaciples.of na ture', compassion, generosity, or hayed of op-' pression, he thought it eutitied to no ,small weight. He then adverted to what took place in the other Honse,.when he said the Minister Of the Crown himself proposed a proceeding which almost went to an abandonment of the Secret Committee ; and if this House should persevere in that obnoxious procedure, it would form an invidious contrast to the conduct of the other House... This would place the conduct of their Lordships!. House in the more disadvantageous light, as the ivflueuce of the Crown was sop • posed to be greater than in the other House. — Were they prepared to meet' the attendant public odium—the execrations of their tellow.subiects'-- and, after all, could the Noble Lord spew any superior adventa,ge which won't' result nom per sisting in proceeding ,with-this COMMitteer' Were he a Mtnnber of it, be would not willingly hear a single paper read, and lie would require per sonal examination and inquiry before be should attach the least cr edit to it. But ,after all what was proposed was gone throngh, there must, on the vie'c the Noble Lords took of the case, be a second trial ; and instead of accelerating the case, the sitting of the, Committee would only produce delay. He then adverted _to the offiCes and- descriptions .of the component Members of the ComMitiee, and Mien aske!l, t i vOuld not a re hurt prOceeding from such rippear to be any other than the teport of IN/linktets themselves ?' Again, '. he said they should be careful to place all their proceedings above even the chance of attached suspicion ; and he must, contend that the mo're simple and direct wlty was by open judicial in.- quit y, and by directly proceeding upon the re sponsibility of Mit.isters ; or it may be done by a measure partly Legislative and partly Judicial ; they sh odd stodournenly adopt a cause more con sonant to the principle arid practice of strict ,law slid justice. The conduct of Miuisrers through out the thole of the business wri? open to much Censure, such in fact as to bring ate best interests of the Country and the honour of the Crown into peril. I vistead of delaying, what he reconimend ed wonlas , preclude delay ;, for the Committee would be as a preliminary to a proceeding which would probably last for months. He then ani -madverted on the conduct of Ministers on'the oc casion, and alleged-their object .was to throw the responsibility from their ()an on the shoulders of is Sect et Conon;ttee, and in effeet•to turn over the ,duties of the Executive Government to Valhi*. mentary Committees ; their conduct was guid ed by no fixed or s'eady principle; they suffered the vessel of the State to sail without pilot or guide, to be btaletted about by the adverse winds or conflicting wavesr-- . . -" Qum dun) sineleg - e geruntnr; Aspera crescit ltyeins; omnique e parte gerunt venti ; frelaque indignantia misecut. Ipse paret; nec se, qui sit status, ipso latetur Seiie mtis rector; nec quid jubeatve, vetetve : 'Lima to.tli moles; totatine potcntior arte est." He then adverted to the language held by a lead ing Minister in the other House of Parliament, highly panegyrical of the moral character and ac complishments of her Majesty, which he seems.tl to think had very little influence on the conduct of his colleagues in treating that illuerrions per sonage—a personage who now. came to the Bar of their. Lordships as a suppliant ; though in th e course Of what Was elicited, it app eared the y would have couceded every thing, **.it: she would be good enough to go away," with the exception of re storing irer name to the Liturgy ! The question was now, he repeated, in an a ltered situation ; and so variable was-the conduct of Ministers, that at one time it formed a striking contrast to what it. was at another. After animadverting further on these considerations, he contended Ministers had placed the Houses in such a way with respect to the unhappy business in question, that they found_ it almost impossible to - extricate them selv9s ; at least by any other way than the adop tion of those rinciples for the regulation of their conduct to which he had referred. The Noble Earl concluded by moving, " That the order fur the Sitting of the Committee be discharged." The Earl of LivettrooL rose a id said, that at the beginning of the Noble Lord's speech he was led to.stippose that li' meant to argue the question on legal and consti'utional principles, and was by no means inclined to consider it as a party rules lion, but as one between that House and the Il lustrious Individual so much referred to. He was, however, not a little surprised as lie went on, to find that the speech contained a most violent per sonal and inflammatory attack upon his Majesty's Government. An attack which be was prepared to repel. The Noble Lord had Made a charge of vaccillation against the-conduct of Government, and asserted its incapability to steer the vessel of the State through the conflicting storms which assailed it. 'He was, howeser, prepared to be judged by the House, by the Coontry, and by the acts of himself . and his colleagues in office for the last eight years ; by these and_ their fruits be would be judged, confident that they would prove a striking contrast to the coudut t and measures of the Noble Lords, who, while in office lied ruined and degraded the couutty, and by tlTeir counsels led it to a state which would have proved destructive, bad it not escaped such imminent danger by a happy change in the Coun cils of the Gaverinnent ; and in those considera tions be was at any time willing to be tried by the House and the Cou rtl y. Proceeding to a view of the subject regularly before the House, the Noble Minister said he bad no diffieully explaining :he whole of the conduct of hi* Ala jetty's Government, an the principles upon which I it acted. He meant not in discussing the genuine merits of the case to quibble, as the Noble fiord had said, upon words, but he would contend', as he was sole, not only,a great proportion of their Lorrrips, hut of the public at large, tvoniti feel that•theyhad acted i. .. 4, lthis nofortuirate - .cese on of proatibiogadditional rt *l>i ,e 1) d ierioltniloacies, v/iF;N oteThatiAlatCil I'o'rre4kot • a greater inconvenience. Upon that broad grotool, the measures and course adopted, he must say, were just and expedient, ,and he really believe!' they were so eat imateil by 9-10ths of the popula tion of the country. Was there any alternative between the treating of her Majesty with all the homage and respect due to the Queen of England, and the way'in which they had acted? They had the grounds cif an accusation against her conduct, and the v-rry next day after her arrival it was deemed advisable to institute proceedings' in con seeptence ie both ['louses of Parliament. In an w her place, the principle (hat governed the mea sores taken FO avert the necessity of pioceeding to extremities, and its decision, was procrasti nated ; they were willing to adopt any course short of retracting the charges', in order to pre clude the necessity of. the close inquiry. Upon this prineiele they bad acted, and be would ask what prouif of vaceillating did that show and he ,most deny the doctrine of the Noble Earl, that it her M.,irsty were guilty, a long investigation be fore Parliam , nt would be an inconvenience, and derogatory to the interests of the Country and the honour of the Crown; but when the Illus trious Personage came and braved inquiry, Mieisteis if they withdrew . from the charge, would act in a manner far more derogatory to the honour of the Crown and the inte rests of the Country. He trusted the House at large would do his Majesty's Ministers the jus tice to believe they were really desirous to avoid the Inquiry ; bet if, from the Conduct of others, it. were forced' upon them, it was their ditty not to shrink from it. The accusation divided itself into two branches : the principal charge could not he made the ground of criminal procedure; nod he-was prepaied to argue that point, if necessary, with the Noble Lord. The opinions he had given upon that head were not only given upon the high authority of his Noble Friend upon the Wnolsack, hut he had consulted other U-gal Au thorities upon the subject, and he could submit to any Legal Authority in the Kingdom. The sia rore'of Edward I) L ordained that adultery with the King's wife, or with the wife of the Heir Ap pareto, or King's eldest son, was high treason, - and on the petit of those females where their con sent was fairly presumed. Such an interpretation was put on the Act where at'iy subject (Witte realm was concerned-; but. in tlae instance, of a foreigner the case was partly different, the charge of high tteasou could not lie. against him, and where there were no principal, the other offending party could not 'be deemed liable to the penal ties of treason. Adultery, generally speaking, wets held to be a civil injury, but not a crime. Under such eirctort,stances, therefore, could charge of miaderneanour be preferred in a Court below There was no difference as to the parties, but in the magnitude of the offence. That which was not a crime by law, could not be tried by any of the Tribunals in this country.; and they I • had no right, to create a crime for the oc casion.--- lte; ;otily'conise, therefore, whieh it - was pus- - sible for Ministers to adopt under such circuit)... stances, was for a proceeding for a Bill of Divorce, or by a Bill of Pains and Penalties, and it then catne to the point, its which House such proceed ings could more properly originate, and he be.;. lieved there could be, no doubt as to the propriety of its originating in their Lordships' Houle, more' especially with reference to its being a legislative proceeding. He'had looked anxiously with re spect to- the cases of Bills of Pains and Penalties, and there was no instance of any one where some previous irquiry had not taken place. He would ask, therefore, whet her it was fitting that their, Lordships' - House - should entertain Atte!) a Bill without some previous inquiry, or without some authority of their own to proceed upon ? Titers should be some intervening authority betwixt the Ministers of the Crown and- the Houses of Par liament in such a case. A proceeding of im peachment, it was stated, was not likely to arise out of such a case as that in question. Drawing to a conclusion, after he bad discussed the above points, with his accustomed force, talent, and perspicuity, the Noble Minister contended there were no just grounds laid for complying with the prayer of the petition.' The great remaining question was, whether the case was fitting to be proceeded with, or whether it would not he pre ferably in their Lordships' House, and with snore preliminary inquiry ? ,With respect to clamorous objections against Secret Committees, he trusted no serious argument would be founded upon those, or that they would stiffer themselves to be drawn from the right line of their duty by any such considerations ; and he must think that no solid Objection could be laid againsta.tommittee composed of characters so nuimpeuchable in every respect as those which were selected by their Lordships for the present important - occasion.— He hoped the House would not be deterred by ' faction---hy prejedice—by any thing that might occur out of doors, front calmly proceeding to the impartial discharge of their duty. They were to consider whether the course now proposed was consonant to the practice of Palliament, 11,they thought it unparliamentary—if they thought it ,harsh towards her 'Majes'y, then let them vote. for the motion of the Noble Earl,' The House had consented to certain delays in the hope of seeing an accommodation effected, bur all at - tempts to bring this about having failed, they had now only to proceed to the 'investigation of the Papers. They were to take that course which was most analogous to that which had been taken on former occasions, and-which was best fitted to procure im paitialjustice.`. Referring the Papers which had been bronglii down to a Secret Com mittee of their Lordships, it was not for the pur pose of trying any individual, but merely to de-. teratine,aehether any species of proceeding what ever should take place. The party concerned would afterwards have the full , benefit of , e public trial, it tar.het proceediugs should be determined .upon by the Committee, with every. opportunity of iettutting the teiderice that 'Ili& be broakiht to support any charge preferred against her.--• This their Lordships would see was the true clot , racier of the proceedings now' recommended by Ministers, and he had only to call upon them to act by it according to whahilley conceived to be their duty. k -. .Lord E !NENA had voted in tlei t 'T instance I(sz theNkecret - COMMillec, but it % es inipossibla fpr'Silm — ll6`tir'to AieUr'in tO•projeriity o? pro ceeding with the Inquiry s inv Secret Committee: He then proceeded to exprain the grounds oft which he had given his former vote, and thenad veiling to the situation in which things stood at present, said he had little expected (hot the cots' sideratiou of the question would take the tarn that it had. A ResOlation had been passed in the other Hotiae, to Which he had a right to refer, by which the Queen, so . far from being regarded as criminal, had been recognized as eetitled to all the jurisdictiim—not jut hidicrion ,but privileges. which .they had attempted to take ' away, and which they still persisted in eh:erupting to take from her. He bad supposed that the Govern-. merits had a charge against her which they were prepared on their owo responsibility to bring be• tore the House. Such, Irnwever, did not " w eal' to he the fact. Ministers were not disposed to take so decided a step, thou ii they had n ot ' scrupled to advise that her Majesty's name should be put out of the Liturgy. He doubted whether. - under the 'Act of Unitotmity, they possessed .con stitutionally the power of reeommending, to the Crown the omission of her name. His Lordehip read over the Resolution of the House of Com mous, and argued that it was quite impossibic tor tier Majesty to accede to the wish therein ex• pressed, as, - if • she had done so, she would have impeached her own innocence by sanctioning the omission of her name in the Liturgy. Her Majesty had since been heard by her Coun sel at their Lordships' Bar, and they had heard her demand a public trial, and the full recognition of her rights 'and privilegiss Wilco the' business was first brought forward it 'appeared to - him that he had no duty to perfurte but to vote that an inquiry into the Papers laid before Parliament should take' place, in order to determine whether or not any further proceeding • was necessary. But he had now to consider wire' . )her, consistently with his duty, he could vote for an inquiry which it had been.deciared by a Reso' lotion of the other House of Parliament (which Resolution was assented to by Minis ere) could not be other than derogatory to the Crown, and injurious to the best interests of the COuntrys 14 was unwilling to be placed in the invidious siloa .. . tion of a pioneer to Ministers, who thought 1)0 ; per to hang back in the dear. They bad diacharg' ed her name from the Litaoy,.and having door; this, they ought to have brought forward their charges 'against her Majesty, and afford-ed her, a fair opportunity of rebutting them. The Queers would now appear to be calumniated if denied tiro " trial Which she bad demanded. No Secret Come mittee could with propriety be resorted to in the present state of things. They had gained a poi from which, after the demand which bad beta made on the part of her Majesty, they could no t recede without her consent. The. LORD CHANCELLOR declared, that it 11 43 long been his anxious wish to save the' co unt from the evils inseparable from the inanity s eleio now became unavoidable. He then explained 4‘ • some length the grounds for the opinion he boa given on a former occasion, that what had beet' imputed to the Queen could. not amount to ui ig' a Treason. Lie begged to state to their Lordship so and be wished that he bad a voice that to rrid make what hi was about to/say heard by 1 0 whole Country—he wiJlied his words could've/ ' the ear of ever y individual from one extremity o his Majesty's dominions to the other, while •b° declared that it was a most abominable and -hT'' just reproach that haul been cast on his Majest., :s Government—(he spoke tor' himnself,•and he ~ye sure that he might say as much for. his Colleagr o , in office) when, it was supposed that there 1 " 5 , ever any intention on the part of Ministers 1490: 7 pose of this business by a Sectet Committee its offensive sense of the word. tie did not thrio:: from 'responsibility, and every one of his MajetnY Ministers was' with himself as responsible for O p Bag which bad been biougbt down, - of which s much had been said, as they could have beer ) tai, l any Bill that they might have thought it ci rc l e duty to introduce. When the conduct of t i e King or' Queen of this country was called in qd e o t Lion, something more than a mere 'question to Ministerial responsibility was involved. Mioiste might be wrong, or they might be right ; ref might .be applauded or they might be peinisheA ;* but the country was placed in such a situation t such a time, that the' responsibility of Mioi sr f s ... became a matter of minor importance. fle 14 . there as a Peer of Parliament. As an indivicusi he had some knowledge of the papers which lis, been brought down to the two Houses, bat' !,,,j, Member of Parliament he. could have no knowle've 7 as of them. Ile was of opinion that if the 140.1 b. Were'not * to institute some inquiry before tine stilt,' ject was brought forward in the House,•they 'O is e surrender some of those functions which it sc B9 o . 'portant tothe.country that rarliument should c o g, finite It) exercise. He had seen in some of the " s c ot $ ' papers that it had . been stated elsewhere °at Bill of Attainder could not be originated ill of House. To this he would reply that there v..tee had occurred a greater mistake. He defend'"_ cl et o al l i i t g eo b i t n i t:n h ea e lt re o g f , a lrd S e a r s e t a C s ( i s i t e n i n te ri r t Committee, a and a S c to p Committee, he wou ld take upon himself t° (wit prote c e a to the Queen. But it was said that, her AP . l re a did not choose that her a ff airs should go bet . ° 4 0 C di r ( r i t , n t i n t i t t w ee as . . f o S r h t e b e t i r u t ig t i o i t ,c ( ( s ) i r rj j s e i c d t er t o.it what, belt r if ili : 0: :: to their conntry required from - them. lf, o l° o, It her Majesty hail urged such an (shire" te, its should have felt himself called upon to 5" 'V, the most respecttul terms that he could ose!valt: he would recommend that such a c oarse s ;.., oc et be pursued in tier case, amid in t hat - ot every ' 4 _ o t he /who tv - asConsort of the Kingiot Englaochtfuet f ts: principle that her interests would be b e spo n 9 j fended than they could 'be. ho the mere r e e , v pol a bility of Ministers; He thought that Hou t erio us never be gush enough to, entertein so _ 6 ioq uil l ; charge without instituting some .orevio"_ _ .0 0 ., ' That those-who formed the Comnlitl e '. l : e oli si the Papers might be pretested stosi.;(.l 1 ) . , • I ti !red as 41 came l 44( Will If a Re s: , 14 : "I ght j stlould re Ile spoke tQ ijolovv t e f t Y l o . b "e .cess, mere kll6 milting o t 0,,,. v, edit, r. Jusii