The Sun. — London, England, 1849-07-17 00:00:00

firit hvw- courts -e both how' , ; their orb the )n, and courts ;enert . 4 t heir Lovell I sutiS• was no unwise would ref ore e mo. much ;ember change to 501. I s pro' ary? not. eaten. , hat be point at the ) With` to the orneY 3 tO be k the' COW' of th, to the matte )g the regste i n the y a rded t con• public should Y. 3cl ob• Stock - L to be s) Bin 1 third I till!. Weot• Ir. )abliff from fray minr NO V :mtiorl ndiorr >f tb 6B . s tiour . 0 0 thr b e fore' Et tb fit th ° ers duga° !BUR S' WO' 6 001 111 L the vul" for a a tba. the long • Übll° robl ° Tye ti to d be Idg go° a cO ,lip ‘• , :r JOHN'S HOSPITAL. In answer to anoth , :r question from Mr. HUME, Lord J. RUSSELL si , ,as understood, to state. that with re gard to St. John's Hospital, hi; Learned Friend the I TtnYney-Geueral would consida which way the inquiry . 1 4111 Lk, place. INCUMBERED ESTATES BILL. Mr. B. OSBORNE said that as the Incumbrnd Estates Bill stood for to• night, he wished to know Whether the Noble Lord would inform them who the Coturnt • ssioners were to be. Lord JOHN RUSSELL could not at present state th e names of the Commissioners, because he had not re ceived the assent of the gentlemen to whom he had Orered the offices. He was anxious that the persons *llO were aointed to the post should be qualified in 41 ,JerY respect for the duties they were called upon to uis c h argo. REMUNERATION OF MEDICAL OFFICERS. Mr. DISRAELI wished to know from the President ( 1 ) f the Poor-law Board if the Pour-law Commissioners come to any determination to increase the r e muneration of Poor-law medical officers in consequence f their increased duties in connexion with the Board of health. H e b e li eve d th e President of the Poor-law C ommission had the power to make an order for Inc reased remuneration. It would be very satis factor y to t he profession if the Hon. and Learned Gentleman Would state the course he intended to pursue. hlr. BARNES was understood to say that the quo's " was under the consideration of the board. In reply to Mr. MACKII4NON, Lord ASHLEY state d th a t the Bishop of London ha d intimated that interments in his diocese would be , n ecessary, if th e P res id e nt of the Board of Health deemed it T,ressarY, and that no resumption o f them would ta k e P 1 ace until it was deemed proper to do so. INCUMBERED ESTATES BILL. MONSELL asked what the Noble Lord in tended to do with respect to this Bill? Lord J. RUSSELL hoped to be enabled to proceed with it this evening; but if not, he intended to proceed with it to. morrow. Colonel DUNNE hoped the Noble L)rd would not ate the Bill at twelve o'clock to-.morrow. The Irish night, tubers were desirous of confining the debate to one Lord VAN COUVER'S ISLAND. LINCOLN intimated that it was impossible, 841:391:ding to the rules of the House, that he could bring ° his motion on this subject again this session. He therefore beggvd to withdraw it. Mr. HORSMAN expressed a hope that the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) would not ask the House to meet 4t,0-morrow morning, seeing it would be likely to inter 'ere with the evening sitting, when he ha d a very im portant motion to bring forward, which he should like to see brought on and finished. Lord J. RUSSELL did not suppose that the early meeting to-morrow would extend beyond three o'clock. The Hon. Gentleman's motion might come on soon after five, and be concluded that evening. Sir W. CLAY and Mr. WALPOLE postponed their Motions, the former respecting the expense of the new Rouses of Parliament, and the latter with regard to the case of Mr. Ryland. Mr. HUME had on the paper a motion similar to that of the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire, but did not intend to bring it forward, as he would content himself with supporting the motion of the Hon. Member. REDUCTION OF PUBLIC SALARIES. On the motion for the House resolving itself into a Committee of Supply on the Ordnance estimates, Mr. HENLEY rose, pursuant to not i ce , to move !hat a reduction of 10 per cent. be made in all salaries all the Ordnance department, and in all other depart- Items of Government at home and abroad. He said he did not wish to cast any imputation upon the officers tinge! the ged iu the public service. He was anxious to see ld parties engaged in the public departments should perform 11111 Y qualified to discharge the duties they had to Perform, and that they should be fnirly remunerated for their services. He wished them to be as well off as other Person s in similar situations. In fact he con asidered it the best mode to secure the efficient perform tileee ef the daties ot these fires He then referred to for 1 :1 1 'Port o f the an Committee pded over by the Member Northampton, That Committee did not recommend en i n re lnediat e re d uct i on o f sa l ar i es , as t h e y we r e of t r e , nu i° ll that i t should form part of a genera l considers or n ( i f t. the expenditure of the country. It was the duty fi ne „ : ,ns, as of individuals, to take a view of their th in • ' c 'et affturs, to adjust them to an altered state of *e % to The last time there was a review of this subject ti e % : 11 , 1931 , under the Reform Government. At that of i - 1% , ommittee was appointed to revise the salaries of State'c, Particularly those in the higher departments of the 1 1 _ and h e should therefore call the attention of the a o , us e to the position ofthe country te en and now,the means 411 7, resources to meet its liabilities and expenditure, Iv a the prices of the various necessaries of life. He he not inclined to trouble the House with figures, but firstas Compelled on the present occasion to do so. The hi n e she should direct their attention to was the ex ,leneiture, including the charges for collecting the re renue. in 1831 the expenditure was 51,700,0001.; in sg urlcl numbers, in 1848, up to the 6th of January, it was '"e o 000 e He ' ht be told, and no doubt he should be t le' ' ni g ° , that 8 great increase in the population had taken Place in that period. The population in 1831 was it ' ‘e o ; o .' o ,: 4 ; in 1848, allowing for no increase in Ireland, the oat th e While th t ' -- ` 8 92 7,000, being an increase of 18 per cent., so te e increase in the expenditure was 14 per cent., expenditure bore a ratio of 44 per cent. to priel?oPulation.—(Hear.) Then if they took the average g". ef corn for at least the first 14 years, they would tha m t it to be about 575. per quarter, and was down at th e 131 °toent to 455. It was one of the reasons also why the ratio of the present taxation was beyond the power of ar thethe in People to b ear it, that crime had considerably tv House see the relation - Now let Population bore with the number of they VIM nal& In 1831 the population of England (he did a t nl etto to carry Ireland into the comparison, in c0n '21,11:,,e e f the great distress in that country), bat in veh' --`4 in 1831 it was 13,897,000; criminals, 19,647; ta. fle ; . 1 2 1 848, with a population of 17,497,000 the cri eritnals were 39,349, being an increase in the number of So y rail4l st He (Mr. Henley) did not attribute that to f m o ralization on the part of the people, but to the p rt of existence of great distress and a want of ern 437°Iente For his own part he never found any period that n cheapness of provisions and employment combined, Present crime did not deteriorate; and believing that at the P o e!!ii t moment there was cheapness of provisions and !e diminution o f cr i me, he believed it was solely from a want of employment. For the last ten years the Chan cellor of the Exchequer had deficient believed, although his Right and he Friend, the present Chancellor, threw a shade over his present year, he would not in the end statement for the much better position than his predecesst find himself in a as he had said, were revised in 183', and . ar reductio n t s i l o r t; on an salaries, Hen ley) would show, that since that time average of 20 per cent, at least, took place in the articles and necessaries of life. If that were so, then he thought be was justified in asking a reduction of 10 per cent. °n all salaries recei ve d f rom t h e C rown . I n d oing pat, he b egge d to b e di st i nctly understood as only re „erring to th ose w h o t ec h n i ca ll y h o ld w h at were called Places," and not those who derived wh a t was ca ll e d w a gPe, such as tradesmen in their dock-yard.. Since 1846, Et great diminution had taken place in every article except the ash stick—(A laugh)—for which sixpence .d I f Y l ls still demanded ; and articles of consumption had The from 15 t 20 and in some instances 50 per cent. elue Right Hon o Genlleman the Chancellor of the Ex 'eueepier said on a recent occasion that the fall of those 3,l43modities was equal to 25 per cent. in wages, which ei ' ti fied him the more in asking by his motion a reduc -4 k of 10 per cent. The classes of public offices to out of be meant to apply a reduction were those paid lio ns, the public Exchequer, and amounted to five mil who • . There were the five heads of the revenue to 628,3 11n , e ornes were paid of 1,200.000/ ; the Excise. s e o eee t Stamps and Taxes, 372 125/.; Post-office, th, 001 ; Woods and Forests, 44.700/.; amounting in to itt.gleregate to 2,644,0001. Then there was to be added I i Th r Se several items from the miscellaneous estimates, t e i " o ‘ , n e , r e th , e head of civil service, law and justice, educe etiejet:',nies and consuls, boards of health, including a Prop e e l : ) c e anernissions, the expense of which were ira te to j e c e u e erged on the Consolidated Fund, and amount leene,tilleue)oo/., making altogether about 1,191,0001. commis:re at ere the estimates for the Ordnance and the entire ariat, . 81 0,0001.; diplomatic services, 140,0001.; Lord io nl re i tng 4,73 0001. th e Pay j o i t V'' . RUSSELL asked if he did not include Mr, eeE N atrtnY and navy? the different p ace.l tion Y proceeded with the relative prices of 4 .d taken I,artieles of consumption, and what ret u c to 15 Meat, according to him, had fallen 10 Per cents /7 Per Cent.; bread 25 per cent.; groceries 30 25 per cent.• and in .; glass, hardware, Se e 20 per cent.; coils C. &C., . 1 h' te 9 0 to 30 Isheoves, per c ent. je in beer, and in 1 cotton goods ane clot in - . Tree same reductions took place in hosiery, for.. , en an omnibus took threepence a elietance for vele' hlc he had formerly to TAY a person now for Th .sixpence. even 0c 0 ,n0 ti, , n...4A laugh) — ere was no good reason why that w large . class of per- Eons who received fixed incomes from the Crown should their salaries not h ave however humble, hothereduced. For every employment, lowered remuneration fwdoarslaabr:uars.s ofW chomenpethtletylonredTucheadt the price of corn the and now in scarce they reaced the incomes of clergymen; In every article harveststhe there could be no rise. d own, while thTehec se rner's means of purchas i ng onsu producer's profit was cut was redu ce d, fe publlP public cr e di t must a y the mse l ves to cut down the pay ments rom th 1 who wi s h e d to maintain the He implored t sider wh e th er it he guardians otreasury t h at could be cut down. o f the public honour to con concession of thisw kind.llBl be wise to make a timely another, and, p er h aps, a moo might save an inquiry of ectionable kind. To buy in the cheapest musket anci th a s i ell in the dearest was ctin now the principle laid down for g upon in every in the people class of society. There was a less now to bear taxation. The state orr e : l r and u was alarm ing. The poor in that country were tr between e r n o g rufortable, life and death, and a large class, hitsheurEtgo:: believed were coming down to that condition, made e fo i re that they could save they should do so. Every fharthing this motion to be just and proper, and should therefore move, " That a reduction of ten per cent, be all salaries in the Ordnance Department, and in all other departments of Government at home and abroad." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped that the justice would be done him of supposing that he should treat this question apart from all personal consi derations. —(H ear ,) The Hon. Gentleman said that he included all classes in the public service from the highest- Paid functionaries down to the letter-carriers at 7s. 6d. Per week. Mr. HENLEY—The law excepted, and the army and navy. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Oh, t hou, this is the first instalment.—(A. laugh.) The law and the army and navy were to form another instalment. eg Now, what was the motion? h Att - inassatteh as the prim of articles now T werp about tho same es. they ivere lier cc tl - nes Beek. Reste;etiee Aet and befere the revolution of 1788, the salaries in the pubic offices should be somewhere about what they were at that period. The Hen. ( 7 1 esttlemen had referred to a C leamittc c of that House in 1831; but that was at e time when there was very great pressure from distress. They went through ad tee offices, and after tatting all the circumstances connected with the subject into their consideration, they recommended certain reductions in the ssliries of the highest functionaries of the State, after which they did not recommend any further re duction, upon the principle stated in their report, that to fill there offices the highest class cf intelli gence was required, and that economy, to deserve the name, should be such as would not place these offices beyond the reach of men of moderate fortune, who, by the talent and industry which this situation oftener called forth, were more fitted for these offices, which required the entire attention of au individual to the exclusion of his private affairs. Such men should not, by sudden changes in political affairs, be in danger of being ruined; and he suspected that if they examined the annals of the country, they would find that a large portion of these officers had been ruined, That Committee had reduced the salaries of the highest paid officers of the State, including the First Lord of the Treasury, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Se cretaries of State, the First Lord of the Admiralty, the President of the Beard of Control. The salaries of the highest paid officers were reduced by a thousand per an num, and some public officers were entirely cut off. The Committee compared the then salaries with what they were before 1780, and after considering all circumstances, fixed a permanent rate of salary. It should also be taken into consideration that a further reduction had been made in all salaries above 1501. per annum, by the imposition of an income-tax. That tax made a material reduction in the salaries of the great body of persons who would be subject to the reduction proposed. The general run of persons were paid lower in propor tion than persons employed in similar occupations in private life. They had not refused to make any reduc tion in the number of persons employed in the public service. In one department of the revenue alone a re duction of two thousand persons had been made, and wherever it was possible they were making similar re ductions. He did not understand the •principle upon which the Hon. Gentleman wished to proceed. Now, he might observe that the low rate of pay exposed the officers in the Revenue departments to great temptation. —(Hear, hear.) Postmen and other persons similarly employed should not be too much underpaid, as it ex posed them to temptations which it was desirable for the public protection that they should not be exposed to. He did not think that because purchases might be made at a low rate that it would be desirable to reduce sala ries, because that would be laying down the principle of fluctuation in the amount of salaries, and be making them dependent upon the price of articles of consumption, which he believed would be most prejudicial in practice, injurious to the country, and in the end a more ex pensive system than that now in operation. He should not, therefore, feel it necessary to follow the Hon. Gen tleman through his mass of figures, but upon these grounds state that he felt it to be his duty to oppose the motion. Mr. NEWDEGATE said that he felt great pleasure in supporting the motion of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Henley). There had been a redaction in the price of labour in the country, and in the price of articles of clothing and con sumption, and the difficulty of obtaining employment hail increased, and therefore he thought that the hollers of the high official situations under the Crown should not continue to receive the same amount of salaries which they did under another and better state of things. If the change in the monetary and commercial policy of the country had been a slight or temporary one, he could have understood the argument of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but after the change in 1844, and that in 1846, both of which tended permanently to depress the prices of a large interest, some great and decided reduc tion was absolutely required. It was said that salaries had been definitely fixed in 1831. But had the reduc tions then made borne any proportion to the reductions in prices during the same time ? With reference to the, point, he must refer to what had recently passed in the House on the subject of official and declared value. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had spoken of this as a fanciful distinction, and the Right Him. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) said, " Oh, that was Alderman Waithman's view." Who Alderman Waithman was he did not know; but the difference between fficial and declared value was simply, that official value was fixed 150 years ago, and had never varied since; it was simply a mea sure of quantity, while the declared value was the market price of the goods. In 1817 and 1818, the official and the declared value were as nearly as possible at par, or, in other words, the prices affixed to the goods, and that realised were equal, but from that period an alteration took place, a depreciation in market value began. In 1820 it amounted to 34 per cent. In the four years from 1829 to 1832, this discrepancy had increased, and the de precia ion amounted t) 41i per cent., while late returns showed it to be 56} per cent., though, as he was prepared to show from tables, the declared value was rated even higher than the price actually realised, and the real depreciation was 63 per cent. He therefore approved of the principle in his Hon. Friend's motion, that a per centage should be taken from all salaries, in proportion to the depreciation which had taken place in the value of every other kind of labour.—(Hear, hear.) He indi vidually did not approve of the policy which had led to the result—(Hear, hear)—on the contrary, he had op posed it ; but he did say this, that if the country as .a whole was to be made poorer—if labour was to be paid lower than before—let the principle apply to all and not to few, or to any particular class.—(Hear, hear.) This subject had been studiously ignored, and banished from the House. Then, at best, men did not dare to touch it, but it was well understood throughout the country, and be was certain that ere long a monetary and a commercial change would be forced upon them of a character which few persons dreamed of in that House. Their system was one of impoverishment. It made the poor man poorer, and the rich richer. The returns of the income-tax showed that the number of persons possessing 15,0001. a year had been reduced by 1,481 since 1846.—(Hear.) He should cordially support the motion. Mr. V. SMITH said, as a Member of the Committee referred to by the Honourable Member (Mr. Henley), he could say that he had so far correctly stated the views of the Committee, but he must add, that he indi vidually held that the House of Commons should urge upon her Majesty's Ministers the propriety of making not a sudden and sweeping reduction—(Hear, hear) — but a careful revision of all the offices, and, having done so, to cut down salaries wherever necessary and just.—(Hear, hear.) In that way he thought very great savings could have been effected—(Hear, hear) —but the Honourable Gentleman shrunk from that laborious process, and proposed summarily to deci mate the incomes of all persons, without reference either to their services, or their incomes. Could any thing be ra,re unjust than such a course ? (Hear, hear.) At the same time, he admitted there were many grounds for such a motion. As an instance of the anomalies which he thought existed, he might mention the large salaries paid to the Secretaries of the Treasury and Admiralty, 2,5001. a year, while other officers more important in their duties, like that of Pre silent of the Poor•law Commissioners, were much lower paid.—(Hear, hear.) In that case, however, they had gone into the market, and got the best talent they could for so important an office, and it would be most unjust now to cut down the salary they had agreed to give. As to the Committee of 1831, the transactions of that period took place under a very peculiar state of things; many of the great Officers of State having in fact offered to agree to reductions of their own salaries, lie must. however, say, that in his opinion. the Hon. Gentleman deserved the thanks of the House for le inging ferwera the motion. Unfortunately, with all the boast of' eco nomy with whicn the session opened, there had been fewer debates on these topics than in any other session since he bad sat in Parliament. There had been many recommendations made by the Select Committee oe Miscellaneous Estimates, which had not been attended to. For instance, he did not see why the expenses of the Postmaster-General's office, and the Tithe Commission, should n©t be brought before the House. With respect to the salaries of the higher officers of state, the Hon. Gentleman had quoted many facts as reasons for re ducing them which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not answered, because they were in fact unanswerable. —(Hear.) These reductions in price had taken place, they could not be denied. But then the settlement of 1831 was pointed to. Why, at that time the Right Hon. Gentleman wo u ld h ave t o run d own to his o u tk n h t eh r i y ssa i o an u yg s e ttii l i cu n kse e a t f Toe c nc h t te a l e d wr a uai n sl d cl ia f k o l ce u u r al ; an ty w e d h o,t e h r ie c tr a whereas oa h un e l, d n a now count i r e f t nv o i e u e r n wo d euds t o oi t tth 2 e : r, opdueiirrdeccebtuai directions, but 200 or 300 per cent. In nu allowance for the digniso; y u i n f e d f t h a e t that subject afte after was making ample r e - high officer of the state, the salaries now p a id t h em were more valua b le than in M 1831 ; and if the Honourable ember had confined his motion to these salaries, h e , have been ready to gi ve hi m hispofor one, should p rt —(Elear.) But he could not vote for a motion s w u hich * I state. There were laree numb ers o f t h em indiscriminately s ought to reduce the in comes o f all the servants e . he thought, hought, too poorly paid considering the duty they had to e - form.--(Hear , hear.) Besides, in order to lir , obtain these s i tua tions they had given up others, they had m ade all their arrangements on the faith of the engagements entered into with them by the Government. Many of them had insured their lives, and in other modes still further diminished their limited incomes, on the faith that they would continued to be paid, and he for one believed that the House of Commons, however econo mical it might be, would not be b 0 at the expense of a laborious and useful body of public servants.—(Hear, hear.) For these reasons, therefore, while he agreed with the general object of the Hon. Member, and would be happy to aid in effecting any practicable reductions, be could not concur in voting for a motion which, from various indications on the Opposition benches, he could not help looking upon as meant to punish (if it were car ried) the Ministers for having been successful with a commercial policy to which they were opposed. Mr. ROEBUCK rose to say a very few words on the motion, because he did not m ean to vote u p on it.—(A laugh.) , Why that was a very good reason for speaking. —(A. laugh.) He objected to the motion that it was an unjust one. It was what bad been called e a flash in the pen , " The Hon. Gentleman never meant it to be carried. It was proposed, because certain measures which had been carried in that House, such as the repeal of the corn-laws, had made things cheap , and it was thought th at it would be a good blow at_Ministers in re taliation to cut down their salaries. He asked the House if it could vote for such the Hon.a motion? (Hear, Gentleman hadand 'd here is a thing come sat that is u he nnecessary, abolish it; here is a place overpaid, hear.) If W of as th n e ot Goveri would have voted for all salariei were him; but when he came and said do so. Re w to be reduced 10 per cent., he could not In ul e d nt as o k v , er w p e a r i e d? a - 11 (H th e e ar w , working servants of the me, would not the ,reduction of 10 per THE SUN 4 LONDON, ennt. hQ n gn•nt, ;nilstieo to them?—(Tl.nr, he2.r.) lc, Yea tll3 y,ourab:o G-nt!tara d c'd to do, thL v left the gr; - at otneerq of the st , l - .? un. touched, and cut desert the lower paid efileers, he would say sliarne upon the House 01 Commons, or the Govere meat that could do so. But the Hen. Gentlemen drew a distinction between paten, ofre!es and place holders. He exceeted the Lerd Chancellor with hi; large salary, because 'his was a patent office, while he would cut down the poor letter carrier with 12e a week, because he was a place holder; why, it was ridiculous. Then, again, in another part of his speech. he spoke of the letter-carrier as a working man, and contrasted his labours with those of his carter, to whom he paid l ls. a week. But he did not take into account the superior trust and responsibility. --(Hear.) He held that a man ought to be paid in pro• portion to the duties he had to perform, and if there were no duties attached to any of these Offices, let them be abolished at once.—(Cries of " Hear.") He treated the labourer of the state just as he treated all other labourers, and he said the labourer was worthy of his hire. In the proposal before the House he could net assent, for he regarded it as unjust in principle. He objected to reducing all public salaries at the rate of 10 per cent., because he cen;itiered that some were under paid while others received exorbitant salaries. If the Hon. Gentleman commenced with attacking the high officers of the state, the Lords of the Household and Ladies of the Bedchamber, for instance, ho would be certain of gaining more popularity than by his present motion, whch proposed to interfere with the salariee of the poor letter-carriers, a class of men who, for most responsible and important duties, were ill-requited, and ought not on any principles of justice or ground of economy to be depeived of any portion of the stipend now allowed them. f_4l these grounds he dissented from the motion submitted for the approval of the House, and if the Hon. Gentleman pressed it to a division he cer tainly intended recording his vote against it. Mr. DRUMMOND admitted that the motion did not quite correspond in its terms with his views, but still as It went the length pledging the House to a recogni- tion of ecmomie principles, he could not abstain from recording his vote in its favour. They had heard from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and from other autho rities on the Ministerial benches, that the prices of food and other articles of commodity were much reduced, but was not this admission tantamount to another im portant admission, namely, that the reduction consider ably raised the fixed salaries of the officers of the state, with whom the resolution submitted to the House now proposed to deal. He thought it quite right, and he made this remark in reply to an observation from the opposite side of the [louse, that the resolution did not propose to deal with the Judges of the land, whose offices were patented, because their salaries were fixed by Act of Parliament. In his own mind he felt convinced that they should lighte❑ the burthens of taxation on the poor by increasing those on the rich, and the motion of the Hon. Gentleman to some extent recognising that prin ciple, he should accord to it his support. Mr. HUME could not agree with the Hon. Member for Sheffield in considering the motion unjust, for it pro posed to deal with all officers of the state, and the pub lic had a right to he served at the cheapest rate prac ticable. All his reasoning on that point was erroneous, and many of the arguments which he advanced were un reasonable. If an opportunity had been afforded he should have proposed a resolution pledging the House that all future appointments should be made at a reduced scale of salary, but not now being in a position to do so, he would support the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman opposite, although he did not approve of it entirely. The extravagances ot society ought to be brought down, so as to prove beneficial to the public expenditure. He thought that lawyers were about the must overpaid class in the country, and in his opinio❑ there was no situation more extravagantly remunerated than that of the Lord Chancellor, with all his patronage. If their incomes were brought do wn, all public establishments would be affected, the Bishops among the number; for the public money that paid the Bishops ought to receive an equal amount of protection as any other public money. Tne Judges, too, were overpaid. The diplomatic services were overpaid; and he contended that, with due regard to their efficiency, they could be considerably reduced. If the motion were carried, it would be a pledge to the country chat the House of Commons was in earnest on the subject of economy and retrenchment of the public expenditure; and, with that view he should give his vote with the Hon. Member who submitted the proposition for their consideration. Mr. HERRIE - 4 telt himself compelled, on what he considered grounds of jus,ice, to record his vu e in op position to the motion. having briefly adverted to the grounds on which the lion. Me !Isar for Montrose de clared himself favourable to the proposition, the Right Hon. Gentleman said he did not believe it would be just or politic to take any given sum at once from the salaries of all public servants. It might be as s ell to remark that the average rate of salary in the Customs and the Excise was 1011. It was a mistake to suppose that the present proposition was anything new, for inquiries had been repeatedly instituted since 1815 up to the present time as to the salaries of public servants, and reductions had been made in consequence. Out of 143,000/. paid.to the heads of departments, a reduc tion had been m-,de of 21,0001. In 1815 it appeared that 27,365 persons were employed in all the depart nu:•nts of the public service, and their salaiies amounted to 3,768,0001.. He had no returns later than those of 1835, and he found that the persons employed had been reduced to 23,500, and the salaries had been reduced 2,786,0001., showing that the reduction in salaries had been in greater proportion than the reduction in the number of persons.— (Hear, hear.) If his Hon. Friend's motion had been in conformity with the recommendation of the Committee on the subject—if he had proposed that the salaries paid to public servants should be in con formity with the altered state of things, and with the labour performed. he (Hr. /ferries) should have sup ported it, but it was impossible not to admit that the men to whom he had alluded, the bulk of tae public servants, performed their duties with a fidelity and cor rectness which invited all praise—(Hear, hear)—and he, therefore, could not sanction the motion as regarded such men, and he was more confirmed in the opinion ho had expressed when ho remembered that, as com pared with France, a fewer number of persons were em ployed in the public departments of this country, and at a far less expense.—(Hear, hear.) He found, by a report made by the Minister of Finance in France, that while in this country the revenue was collected at an expense of 6i per cent., the collection of it in France cost 14 per cent., and the saving in this country was attributed by the French Minister to the superior class of the persons who were employed in the collection. Under the cir cumstances of the case, he felt he could not support the motion of his Hon. Friend. Mr. MUNTZ was of opinion that the motion before the House was of far greater importance than Hon. Members seemed disposed to consider it. People throughout the country thought that while so many were suffering, it was not consistent or fair that the incomes of Ministers should undergo no reduction. It was noto rious that all those who had fixed salaries had gained by the changes which had taken place in the prices of no. cessaries. He wanted to know on what principles of justice or honesty the parties he had alluded to could expect to continue in the receipt of their present incomes? Let them ask traders and workman whether their profits and wages were not reduced ?—(Hear)--and it that were the case, why should not the salarier of the public ser vants also be reduced ?—(Hear ) The peoplt out of doors were taking the present motion as a test of the sin- cerity of that House, "being of opinion, as they were, chat the salaries alluded to ought to be reduced in the same proportion that they had b,en in their incomes. Articles of all kinds had been reduced in price—some of •hom so much as thirty per cent.; and why should not , ho salaries of her Majesty's Ministers also be reduced? In his own manulactory he should be at no loss how to .et; and a Government rcight be looked upon as a large rnanufactory.—(A lauc.h.) - lie saw no reason why the commercial principle should not be applied to it, and .he stiaries of the servAnts of the public reduced in a proper proporrion.—(dear, hear.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL said those Hon. Giontlemen who had surported the toolian had treated the proposed rpducti.n as ht-ir,g one which it was desirable to make. He did not think, hnwever, that such was the opinion of that House. His Hon. Friend the Member for Mon- trose (Mr. Hume) usually laid down the doctrine that the salaries should be reduced to the scale of 1792 and 1793, but he had not ventured upon that argument that night. The Hon. Gentleman who had last addressed the House (Mr. Mame) had stated it to be his opinion that ti , ey ought to reduce the public salaries in proportion to the reduction whlieh had taken place in the price of other things.—( Hear, hear.) But, in fact, the salaries of the Melt officer.; of state were not in the proportion the Hon. Member supposed them to be. The salaries were lower, and the emoluments were lower, than when those high prices he had referred to hal been in operation. The Noble Lord then alluded to the proceelings of the Committee in 1831 and 1833, on the subject which was now before the House, and said that that Committee had fixed the salaries of Ministers below what tho'-e salaries were in 1783. The Hon. Gentleman ought to see in what confusion he would place the public offices if his motion were carried. Some of them were fixed during the war, and if the motion were acceded to great injustice would be done to many. Let them take, for example, the office of his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department, which was inquired into last year, and salaries fixed, and would it not be unjust to meddle with them now again?— (Hear, hear.) In his mind the objection made by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Stamford, of the great hardship there would be in lowering salaries of 1001. or 1501. each, and that, too, of men who performed arduous duties for those small salaries, was unanswer able. Inquiries were made into the Treasury as well as the Elotne-office. Within the last two years large re ductions were made in the offices of Stamps and Taxes. and he should be prepared to make any reasonable re ductions proposed; but to say that a general sweep of the kind should be acceded to, he believed the House of Commons would not agree to it. The Hon. Member said he would not touch the law, because the judges took their situations for life; but in his mind it would be a just principle to do so, because a Judge who accepted an of fice of 5,000/. a year for life should not be exempted, while a clerk with 80/. held only during pleasure, should have his salary reduced. The Hon. Gentleman also omitted the army and navy; but if he went into the co empt. st suteodand h f lbi provisions, ve td th of chairs and tables, and beds, he did not see why th e m ili tary an d nava l ser vices should be ex empt,caitv attendedil suchpw t o i r h t a i ntemxatttr)tfee extreme hope attempt nr ai g m l,n, r u a ;d i eiatyniditin he hittee also be lieved that the true way to make a reduction, that the only way to act with eco nom y was, to see t h at t h e du ties were performed with real ability. But to make a reduction o of 13 per rcetn)tilritmhrheoet to h.ut. H for i tsc;m , e- tax,e believed his da the motion would lead to difficulties, and ioextrieutde confusion; and he hoped, therefore, the House would not agree to it. Mr. WODEEIOUSE should support, the 'Motion. He protested against that doctrine which held they should do nothing, but leavo things of themselves to come to rig Mr. SPOONER, contended it wa4 oF no use telling the people what tind boca done, or g , ;ing back to other pe rioos, lice his Right Lion. Friend the Member for S:ana fr,rd, in order to see what reductions were mvle. Sinco thoy had cbanged their commerciAi policy he thought the privileged classes ought not to be exempt any longer, bet suffer the same reductions with the other portions of the community. _ . . Mr.AGLIONIY I:lievod the motion calculated very much to mislead Hon. Members, and as to what the Hon. Member for Birmingham said about the eyes of the country being fixed on that motion, he denied it alto gether. He believed the country did not care one far thing about it.—(Oh, oh.) The Hon. Member said that wages were reduced everywhere, and therefore officers of the Crown ought to be reduced also, bat he denied that. He denied that any reduction had taken place in wages. He knew that in his own county (Cumberland) no reduc tion had taken placa even in the agricultural classcs, for they give the same wages there they gave for years past. He believed the motion was not a practical one; that it was too general iu its nature, and he should therefore vote against it. Mr. GOULBURN observed that no class of men de served more from Parliament than Honourable Gentle men who filled the inferior offices in the state, and he should therefore protest against that class being selected for reduction in their salaries. In 1821, an address to the Crown was carried in that House with reference to the number of public officers, and the increase of sala ries since 1797; minute inquiries were made—a great number of persons were s.,i-,.ranuuated—and yet his Hon. Friend came down iu IS4 to reduce them still further. -....--. Mr. COBDEN sail that on a former occasion, when the Hon. Gentleinan brought f ;sward a motion to reduce the salaries of one department, tn. voted with hitn, on the understanding that the humi.ler offiee4 should not be re duced, but now the Hon. 1 6 , -11;lernan hid gone much fur ther, even to the humble two-peony postmen. Now, he could not he is party to redact, the wags or pay of any man having twet,, , shil:iags a week. He would rather augment their pay, ant the wages of the agricultural la bourer also, than be a party to seducing it. If he had confined his motion to the higher departments he would have had greater success; but he was new in the field as a financial reformer, and probably he would have greater success another time by wording his motion better.—(A laugh.) But the salaries of the highest offices were overpaid in this country.—(Hear, hear.) Look at the American functionaries. Had they better statesmen than Webster and Clay in this country? How enormous was the difference in the remuneration they received for their public services. Had we a better di plomatist, apart from his literary character, than Ban croft; and yet he received only 2,0001. per annum, when our ambassador at Paris received 10,0001. a year, and in Austria 9,0001. per annum. These were the class of salaries that should be looked at. There was also ano ther class he alluded to, the supernumeraries. There might well be a reduction in their number. In voting for this motion he wished to guard himself against affirming any principle other than this, that every re duction should be effected with a view to the efficient discharge of public duty. He thought the best way of effecting this was not by the sweeping motion before the House, but by subjecting each department to a specific inquiry. To conduct such an investigation they could not have a better tribunal than an independent Com mittee of that House. Mr. PACK E said that by the policy advocated by the Hon. Member for the West Riditg and his supporters. the wages of the agricultural labourer had been reduced below the minimum beyond which he had stated he should be sorry to see wages tenueed. He should give his coraial support to the motion. Lord J. RUSSELL, in explanation, wished to say, lest he had been misunderstood, that all he meant to convey was—that when objections had been made to any pareiculer department of the public service he had offered no objection to any inquiry ; as, for instance, when objections were snide to the expenses incurred ire the Home Department an inquiry had taken place, and a reduction of 3,0001. per annum had been effected. Sir W. CLAY wished to guard himself also from being understood as assenting to the proposition that the salaries of the humbler Governne-nt servants should be reduced. Ile should support the motion upon the grouno that some diminution she.uld take place in the large sala ries of the of tiers in the higher departments. Mr. BRIG H I said he did nor, approve of the indiscri minate reduction of salaries. Ho thought that wages from 12s. to 30s. a week should not be reduced. As to wages generally, he was happy to say that there was a tendency to raise them, which would be materially felt next year, as the lion. Gentleman would find. As for the question before the House, he should vote for it, and then for the proposed amendment of his Hon. Friend the Membar for the West Riding. Sir W. JOLLIFFE said Oct instead of high wages and low prices, as the Lion. /Limber for the West Rid ing and his coadjutors had promised years ago, and had main promised to-night, they had now the greatest diffi culty in getting any wages at ali.—("Hear," from the Op position.) He thought the public servants of this coun try were overpaid, and the time was come for a sweeping reform. Mr. HENLEY shortly expll - 4,iued that his motion was a true motion, and it relatt,d to ss.iaries only, and had nothing to do with wages. The House then divided, when them , appeared— For Mr. Henley's motion ... 102 .tig,sir!t it ... 142 bjorii.y fur going into Committee --40 SUPPLY. The House then went into Committee of Supply, Mr. BERNAL ill the Cnair. Oa the vote of 361,9001. for Ordnance stores, Mr. HUME said he expected some explanation of this vote. What did the Government propose to do with regard to the report of the Committee which had been sitting so long upon these estimates ? Colonel ANSON said that he thought that report, able as it was, would be of little use without the evi dence. The House would find that the recommendations in the report were couched in very light terms, ano tended to the effect that the Government would take them into consideration during the recess. He could state that they would receive the most deliberate considera tion, without which the Government could not pledge themselves to carry out these recommendations. The recommendations that related to the artillery and ord nance, he thought, could not be acted upon, as they were contrary to the opinions of the Duke of Welling ton, Lord Hardinge, and other experienced officers.— (Loud cries of " Hear, :hear.") The Committee recom mended that the number of artificers and workmen should be fixed at the rate usual in time of peace, and that no addition should take place without the express sanction of the House. He could only say that, as far as this was possible, consistent with the large works which had to be entered upon, this ought to be done, and he had no doubt that the recommendation would he attended to. Then they recommended that in the colonies in the West Indies and Canada the establish ments should be reduced, especially in the smaller colo nies of the West Indies; the Government could not have any reason for incurring unnecessary expenses in the co lonies—and he theretere had no hesitation in saying tha , this recommendation might be attended to in certain cases. The Committee,. with reference to the large amount of stores in hand, had recommended that they should as nearly as possible be reduced to the amount required in time of peace. •He did not wonder at the aueount at which these stores were valued, nearly sever, militone, should have caused the Committee to make such a recommendation, but when tee large portion ce these stores which had been superseded, rendered useless by modern improvements, was deducted, and those only taken into account which were fit tor service, the quan tity would not appear so very large or disproportioned to our actual wants. If any forced sale of these stores were now made, it would be must imprudent, and with regard to the total amount of stores, it would be remembered that during the Government of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) and the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) addi tions had taken place to the artillery, and there was up to the present year nothing in the aspect of affairs to warrant them in making any material reductions. — (Hear, hear.) At the same time he had no doubt that the Government would give their best attention to the subject with the view of effscting every practicable re duciion. Lie might say the same of all other vote, which were placed before the house in the same simple form which had been recommended by experienced per sons connected with the Treasury in 1845. He saw no reference in the sumwiry aqui respect to the works a: the lonian Islands, BertuuL, nod other places, referred to on a previous occasion, by the Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark (Sir W. Molesworth). On re ferring to the body of the report, however, he found the case referred to first was Bei-nettle ; the sum proposed for this year was 4,5451., cc nein!) , not a very large one. The WIIC.II sum to be voice for these works, in addition to tlest already expended, was 60,0001., though it admitte d it might be much more. Lord Grey, in tis evidence, was in favour of these works being suspended. But there was a great difference of opinion, as shown in the evidence of past governors and officials connected with the colony. That difference of opinion was, however, one reason why in quiry should take place, and he was empowered ou the part of the Government to say that such inquiry should be made. The same should apply to the M.,uritius, and partly to the lonian Islands, ou thelas surance th a t p ar t of the estimates, hate though it was in the session, would be withdrawn, and that orders should be sent out imme diately to stop as far as possible all new works. He hoped that the explanation would be satisfactory t o th e Hon. Baronet, and he thought it should be so, because, after all, the recommendation of the Com m it tee mere ly amounted to a recommendation to the executive Go vernment to take the subject into consideration. He had no wish to detain the House by any remarks of his own, but as the Hon. Member for Montrose had asked what the Government meant to do in the matter of these re commendations, he felt bound to state, on their part, that the Government were prepared to give their best con sideration to the subject, and to lay revised estimates be ' fore the House next year; and if these estimates did nut meet the views of the Hon. Member for Montrose, or the Hon. Member for the West Riding, they could then take objections to them. Before he sat down, he would just mention that the Government had already made a re duction of 320,0001. on the estimates of this year, and he , hoped the Hon. Member would ticeept that as an earnest I of the desire to make every possible reduction. Mr. HUME said the Gallant Colonel had made a long statement, but had not answered the question, what was the number of the artillery? He was glad he had papers he'ore him, because his figures would be right. He I ound that the charge for the ordnance was 1,429,C001. in 1834-5, while in 1848.9 it had swelled up to 2,827,0001., or clout)), the amount. The Committee of 1828 had re cominendel a reduction of the number of artillery, but instead of that he found that the number had been con stantly and gradually augmenting until from 8 369 they amounted up to up ards of 14,000. He wanted some explanation of this fact. They were told they had 80 TUESDAY EVENING, JULY 17, 1849. batteries in this country. Why, bless his soul, what did tbny went with batteries in a eounixy were the people were all obed.eot to the law.—(llear, fi,ar.) They tiad asked for explanation of this in the Committee, bat none had been given. Then there was another point, the number of officers on the department had been aug mented without consulting the House, according to the recommendation of the Committee of 1828. But in doing this, they had appointed only senior and high-paid officers, while the complaints of their own officers in the colonies was that there was a deficiency of inferior offi cers, and that non-commissioned officers had to b 3 ap pointed to do the duties. Under these circumstances, he hoped that the explanation he asked for would be given. Lord J. RUSSELL said the Hon. Member had first rsked his Hon. and Gallant Friend what the Govern ment meant to do with respect to the recommendations, and now he complained that he had not told him how many artillery then" would be. His Hon. and Gallant Friend was prepared to have told him that on Thursday night, so that it appeared they might as well have gone on with the estimates them.—(Hear, hear.) He took upon himself the responsibility of adopting the sugges• tion of the Master• General of the Ordnance both as re gards the increase of the artillery, and the manner in which it was carried out, and he was glad to find the recommendations of the Committee so fully borne out by the GuvQrnment. Mr. HUME, while ho agreed that the artillery ought to be a❑ efficient force, contended that it should be pro portioned to the infantry and the requirements of the State. Inatcad of adding two additional battalions, the proper course to have adopted would have been to in crease the number of men in the existing corps if that increase were demanded by the state of the country, which he denied. He believed it would be absolutely necessary to check the expenditure which had grown n 2 during later years, and he entered his protest against the utter recklessness which was manifested in maintaining what could not be otherwise regarded than as war establishments. Captain BOLDERO considered, looking at the effi cient state of the artillery service in other countries, that the time had arrived when they ought to increase the artillery of this country. The French had one gun for every 300 men, while we had but one gun for every 750 men. Mr. HUME thought that if justice were done the people no necessity would exist for keeping up the large war establishment now maintained. The vote was then agreed to. The sum of 151,6501. to complete the amount neces sary for Commissariat and Barrack supplies. Mr. HUME said that since the year 1838 this sum had been nearly doubled, and he had heard no argument ad vanced for such an increase. Colonel ANSON explained that the additional number of men employed in the service, of course required an increased sum for commissariat supplies. After a few words from Colonel PEEL, The vote was agreed to. The sum of 45,8M1. to defray the expense of the Ordnance-office. Mr. COBDEN protested against the further conside ration of the estimates at that late hour, after twelve hours' sitting. The subject was too important to be lightly discussed, and he suggested an adjournment of the subject. ____ Lord J. RUSSELL could not consent to postpone ment, the more particularly as they could not resume the consideration of these estimates before Friday night. Mr, COBDEN pressed for postponement, adding that the country would not be satisfied with the Legislature voting away large sums of money at midnight without serious consideration. Mr. V. SMITH advocated a revision of the Ordnance Board, which was by no means an efficient body, in ac cordance with the suggestions of the Committee of 1849. Mr. HUME said, if anything could prove the impro priety of their proceeding with the estimates at the pre sent late hour, it was the speech of the Hun. Gentleman who had just addressed them. There was a feeling out of doors that the Board should be altogether abolished; And if there was not a discussion in the present session, there would be no change till next year, and he would herefore suggest that the Committee should be ad journed till Thursday. Lord J. RUSSELL—With reference to the suggestion of the Hon. Member to adjourn the Committee, he did not see that the adjournment till that day would enable he House to come to a better conclusion on the esti mates. Mr. MILES was in favour of the adjournment. After a few words from Mr. FOX MAULE, Sir W. MOLESWORTH said it seemed quite im• possible they could then go through the estimates. It was his intention on the seventh vote to bring under consideration the cases of Bermuda, the Mauritius, and the lonian Islands, and as his doing so would occupy some time, and as he would expect some explanations, he did not see the possibility of their now proceeding. After some discussion, in which Mr. Hoasmsx, Lord JOHN RUSSELL, and others took part, Mr. lIORSMAN moved that the Chairman should report progress, when strangers were ordered to with draw. It appeared, however, that the motion was not pressed to a division, and on being re-admitted we found— Mr. COBDEN addressing the House. He said the Honourable Member for Montrose had left the House in consequence of the conduct of Ministers persisting in proceeding. Common sense, decency, and jus tice forbade them going on any further that night, and he should therefore move that the Chairman should re port progress. Mr. BERNAL.—Does the Hon. Member mean to divide the House ? Mr. COBDEN—Certainly. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House divided, when there appeared— For the motion ... Against it ... Majority against the motion Upon the vote being put, Mr. KERSHAW moved that the Chairman report progress. Lord J. RUSSELL—If the Hon. Gentleman will allow this vote to pass, I shall not proceed further to night.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. KERSHAW, however, having intimated his in tention to persist in dividing, Lord J. RUSSELL said, if Hon. Gentlemen meant to 107 -93 take such a course, however small their minority— hear)—he thought it would be best to postpone the vote. He would, therefore, put them for Wednes day, in the hope that Hon. Gentlemen with Bills for that day (of which there were not many) would con sent to allow the Supply to come on, and he would endeavour to make an arrangement on those Bills on another day. The House then resumed, and the report was received. On the order of the day, Encumbered Estates Bill (consideration of Lords' amendments), Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL hoped Government would not press the Bill through with any haste. It was quite evident the session would last longer than had been ex pected after the postponement of the supply. Lord J. RUSSELL said, he proposed to consider the Bill to-morrow at twelve o'clock, as the amendments bad been generally seen by Members, and had not been se riously objected to. Colonel DUNNE movel that the House should not sit at twelve o'clock to-morrow, and said he would di vide the House on it. Lord J. RUSSELL informed the Hon. Member be could not do so, as other orders of the day were already fixed for the meeting of the llouse.—(Hear, hear.) He would not object to take the Bill on Thursday, at twelve o'clock, if the Hon. Member wished.—Agreed to. ATHLONE TO GALWAY RAILWAY BILL. On the order of the day for the House going into Committee on this Bill, Mr. F. FRENCH. requested the Government to post pone the Committee until there was a fuller attendance of Irish Members. The C h ANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that at such a period of the session these postponements were most injurious and could serve no object, particularly in case of a Bill like the present, which had the consent of both sides of the House. Major BL ACKHALL also urged a postponement, as many Irish Members who wished to extend the measure had gone away under the impression it would not be brought forward that night. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed it would be impossible to extend that Bill at least.— (Hear.) No Bill for the benefit of Ireland could be carried if this course of postponing measures was to be pursued night after night.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. O'FLAIIERTY begged the Hon. Member (Mr. French) not to oppose the with of his own county, to let the measure pass. Mr. F. FRENCH denied that the county he repre sented or the baronies to be affected by the Bill were favourable to it. The House then went into Committee, and several clauses were agreed to, when Mr. F. FRENCH rose to move a proviso to the effect that the money advanced by the barony of Gal way should be repaid before any division of profits took place! The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER op posed the proviso, on the ground that it was con trary to the arrangement on which the Bill had been introduced. AfV?r some conversation, in the course of which Sir J. Burke, Sir P. Nugent, and several other Honourable Gentlemen recommended the Hon. Member for Ros- CQOIIIIOII to withdraw his proviso, and expressed their belief that the arrangement proposed by the Bill would be advantageous to Galway and the adjoining districts, The proviso was negatived without a division. The remaining clauses of the Bill were then agreed to. The Relief of Diatress, Ireland (No. 2), Bill passed through Committee. The House, in Committee, on the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, agreed to a resolution authorising an ad vance from the Consolidated Fund, not exceeding 50,000!., part of previous repay ments, for building workhouses in Ireland. On the motion of Lord ASHLEY, the Nuisance Re moval and Diseases Prevention Bill was read a second time. A Bill to amend the Metropolitan Sewers Act was brought in by Lord EBRINCToN, and read a first time. The other orders of the day being disposed of, the House, at Half-past Two o'clock this morning adjourned until noon. Catesby Abbey, one of them and in- ' teresting estates in Northamptonshire, is to be submitted to public sale by Mr. Robins, at Daventry, on Thursday next. The diffie u lty of disposing of the property in its en tire state has induced t he proprietor to divide the es t a te into several lots. C atesb y Abbey, with the manors, village, cemetery, avenue of elms, uni two farms, altogether about 300 acres, forming the principal lot, offering irresistible attractions to the capitalist. The outlying farms will be submitted singly, and much competition is expected in the neighbourhood. Thi s fine property st ill shows all the evidence of connexion w ith the earliest poriod of Inglioh history. PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS. HOUSE OF LORDS, Juts 16. POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL. lIIINOItITY. MARQUISES. Grey lUOICS. Clanricarde Ileliester " " Auckland Lansdowne pinto Byron EARLS. Morley Camoys Besborough St. Germans Campbell Carlisle Shaftesbury Eddisbury Cowper Strafford Elplitnstone Essex Suffolk Erskine Forteseue Yarborough Lyttelton Granville Say° and Selo LIST OF PAIRS. Earl of Gosford Earl of Erne Marquis of Conyngham Lord Gray Earl Spencer , Earl of Eglinton Lord de Manley Duke of Richmond Lord Foley Lord Southampton Earl of Zetland Lord Kenyon Ulshop of Worcester Marquis of Exeter Marquis of Breadalbane Earl Kinnoull Lord Poltimore Earl Cardigan Lord Sudeley Earl of Jersey Marquis of Winchester Lord Beauchamp Archbishop Canterbury Earl Digby Earl-of-Effingham Lord Polwarth Earl of Leitrim Lord Brougham Lord Bateman Earl Talbot Earl of Oxford Viscount Combermere Lord Milford Marquis of Ely Lord Lilford Lord Wynford Lord Carrington Earl of Aylesford Lord Crewe Lord de Lisle Duke of Norfolk Duke of Beaufort Marquis of Anglesea Viscount Sydney Earl Ducie Lord Sondes Marquis of Donegal Earl of Glengall Lord Colborne Earl of Lonsclale Bishop of Manchester Earl Mansfield - Bishop of Hereford Marquis of Hertford Lord Howden Duke of Buccleuch From the Votes and Proceedings of the Howe rf CORWICHI3.I MONDAY, JULY 16. SUPPLY. Order for Committee read ; Motion made and Question proposed, " That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair:'— Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word " That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words " a reduction of ten per cent. to be made in all salaries in the Ordnance Department, and in all other departments of Go vernment at home and abroad," instead thereof:—Question put, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question." The House divided : Abdy, T. N. Adair, R. Shafto Aglionby, H. Anson, Colonel Armstrong, Sir A. Armstrong, R. B. Ashley, Lord Bagshaw, John Baines, M. T. Baring, Sir F. Beckett, W. Bellew, R. M. Berkeley, Captain Berkeley, Henry F. Berkeley. C. L. G. Bernal, Ralph Blacken, S. W. Blake, Martin J. Bouverie, E. P. Bowles, Admiral Boyle, Colonel Brand, Thomas Brockman, E. D. Brotherton, J. Brown, W. Browne, R. D. Burke, Sir Thomas Butler. P. S. Callaghan, D. Carter, S. B. Cavendish, C. C. Childers, J. W. Clerk Sir George Colebrooke, Sir T. Cowper, W. F Craig, W. G. Darner, Colonel Davie, Sir Henry Denison, J. E. Dodd, George Duff, G. S. Duncan, Viscount Dundee, Admiral Dundas, Sir David Ebrington, Viscount Elliot, John E. Enfield, Lord Evans, J. Fergus, John Ferguson, Sir R. Fordyce, A. D. MAJORITY—AYES, 149. Forster, Mathew Philips, Sir G. B Fottescue, Chichester Pi nney, Fox, Richard M. Power, Dr. Freestun, Colonel Price, Sir R. French, F. Raphael.;Alexander Goulburn, Henry Reid. Colonel Granby, Marquis of Repton, G. sy..y, Greene, Thomas Reynolds, John Grey, Sir George Ricardo, Osman Grosvenor, Lord R. Rice, E.' R. Haggitt, F. R. Rich, Henry Hallyburton, Lord Richards. Richard Hanmer, Sir J. Romilly, Sir John Hawes, Benjamin Rumbold, C. E. Ha3 - ,;Lord John Russell, Lord J. Ilayter, W. G. Russell, Edward B. Heathcoat, John Russell, F. C. Heueage, E. Rutherfurd, A. 'lorries, John C. Sanders, J. 4 Heywood, James Scully, Franeis Hobhouse, Sir John Shaito, It. D. Hobhouse, T. B. Shell, R. L. Hope, Alexander Shelburne, Earl of Howard, C. W. Smith, Vernon Jervis, Sir John Somers, J. P. Keppel, George T. Somerville, Sir W. Labouchere, Henry Spearman, H. J. Langston, J. IL Stanton, W. H. Lasceiles, W. S. Stuart, Lord J. Lewis, G. C. Start, H. G. 31.Cullagh, W. T. Talbot, C. R. M'Gregor, John Thompson, Colonel Marsh 11, J. G. Thornely, T. Matheson, Colonel Tollemache, F. J. Maule, Fox Tanen. H. Melgund, Viscount Turner, George Morison, Sir W. Villiers, Viscoun. Mostyn, E. Wellesley, Lord C. Newport, Visct. Williamson, Sir IL Nichol!, John Wilson, James OTlaherty. Anthony . Wilson, Matthew Ogle, S. C. Wood, Sir Charles Owen, Sir John Wortley, J. S. Paget, Lord A. Wrightson, W. B. Paget, Lord Clarence Wyvill, M. Paget, Lord,George Young, Sir John Palmerston, Vis. Parker. John Patten, W. MUM. Peel, Colonel Hill, Lord Mann/ Peel, Frederick Grey, R. W. MINORITY-NOES, 102. Adair, Hugh E. E wart, William Mowatt, Francis Alcock, Thomas Fagan, William Mullings, J. R. Archdall, Captain Farnham, E. B. Muntz, G. F. Bailey, Joseph Fellowes, E. :Coneys, Sir D. Barrington, Viscount Forbes, W. • Nugent, sir Percy Bennet, Philip Fuller, A. E. Packe, C. W. Beresford, William Goddard, A. L. Palmer, Robert Blackstone, W. Gooch, B. S. Pechell. Captain Blair, Stephen Gwyn, Bowel Perfect, Robert Blewitt;Reginald Hardcastle J. A. Pigot, Sir R. Bright, John Harris, Richard Pilkington,:Jamea Brisco, M. Hastie, Alexander Portal, Melville Broadley, Henry Headlam, T. E. Salwey, Colonel Buck, L. W. Heald, James Scholefleld, William Burghley, Lord Henry, Alexander Smith, John B. Burrell, Sir.C. Heyworth, Lawrence Sotheron, T. H. S. Buxton, Sir E. Hildyard, R. C. Spooner, R. Carew, W. P. Hill, Lord E. . Stanley, B. H. Chichester, Lord J. Hodgson, W. N. Strickland, Sir G. Clay, James Holland, Robert Stuart, J. Clifford, Henry M. Hood, Sir A. Taylor, T. E. Cobbold, John C. Rome, Joseph Tollemache, John Cobden, R. Jollitle, Sir W. H. Tyrell, Sir J. Codrington, Sir W. Kershaw, James Vivian, J. E. Conyngham, Lord A. Knox, Colonel 'Waddington, H. S. Currie, Henry Lennard, T. B. Wall, C. B. Deedes, W. Locke, Joseph Walmsley, Sir J. Devereux, John T. Lockhart, W.': Walter, John . _ . Dickson, Samuel Lopes, Sir Ralph Wawn, J. T. Disraeli, B. Lushington, Charles Willcox, Brodie Duckworth, Sir J. Meagher, Thomas Willoughby. Sir H. Duncan, George Martin,"John Wodehouse, E. Edwards, Henry Miles, William . TELLERS. Egerton, W. T. Mitchell, T. A. Henley, J. W. Ellis, John Morris, David Newdegate, N. HOUSEHOLD WALLS. (From Eliza Cook's Journal.) We talk of ‘. old familiar faces," And love them warmly and sincerely; But there are old familiar places That cling to us almost as dearly. Bay, who among us, with a heart Where feeling's holy sunshine falls, Can bear, untouched, to turn and part From even long-known household walls? Walls, that have echoed to our pleasure, Walls, that have hidden us in grief, Been shaken by our dancing measure, And garnished by our Christmas leaf. The chairs, that we have drawn around The twilight fire, with friends beside us, When in that tiny world we found The peace the larger world denied us. The table, where our arm hal leaned, And held our brow in pensive thinking, The cosey curtain, that has screened When north-east draughts have found us shrinking; Oh! are there not some hearts, that ever A tint of love from these can borrow; And when they say " Good bye," can never Take the last look without deep sorrow? And how the spirit learns to talk To some old tree, or whitethorn hedge, Or worship some poor garden walk, As though 'twerp bound by sacred pledge. Oh! many a throbbing heart will yearn To household wall, or old green lane, And many a farewell glance will turn, Half dimmed, to peep just once again. At snme familiar noteless thing, Which we have dwelt with, till it seems A feather in the gentle wing, That nestles all our happiest dreams. Oh! love, thou bast a noble throne In bosoms where thy life-light falls, So warm and wide, that they have sighed At leaving even hcusehold walls. ELIZA Coos. CITY ELECTION. The death of Mr. Pattison is not likely, we appre hend, to lead to a second contest. The vacant seat wo fancy, is "bespoke." The p resent Chief Magistrate, while gr atifying his own taste for hospitelity, has been at the same Limo, creating for himself "hosts of friends." It will be the moEt natural thing in the world that he should be immediately asked to become one of the City's representatives; and we cannot imagine that 1 .03 rill hesitate a moment in accepting the offer. The state of the registration, owing to a certain strange de cision in the Revising Barrister's Court, of which we have recently spoken, is much egainst the Conservatives, and will remain so until the new register cornea into force in November next. But apart from this, they, like ail other parties in the City, have largely partaken of the Mansion-house festivities, and, except a clear obligation of duty were shown, would necessarily feel a repugnance to oppose the natural elevation of a gentle man at whose hospitable board they had often passed ts [ pleasant hour. We regard, therefore, the election of [ Sir James Duke as already certain. Nor can there be anything to regret in the change. Of the deceased Member this is not the time to utter a word of censure; but we may at least remark that his successor will fall behind him in no recommendation, while, to our taste, he will have the advantage iu several particulars.— Herald. The death of Mr. Pattison having caused a vacancy in the representation of the city of London, at an early hour yesterday morning a requisition was in extensive circulation, and signed by a large number of the most eminent and influential of the City constituency. No other candidate was announced, and we have no doubt that, from his well-known popularity, the L or d Mayor will be elected without oppo3ition.—Chrontcle. 'UGE VICTORIA HARBOIIiFO F REFL ~ TO THE LOYAL INHABITANTS 01 WEYAIOUTII AND PORTLAND. Weymouth, July 14, 1849, The Worshipful the Mayor (Andrew Lithgow, E sq has with much court,sy communicated nt to m private i n telligence, t h ro ugh Colonel Free - tu that hi s Royal Highness Prince Albert will lay the first stone of the Victoria Harbour o: Refuge, on Wednes day, the 25th day of July, 1849 of which public notice will be given. JOHN HARVEY. Woyraouth,July' 15, 1849. MEMORANDUM.—The Mayor of Weymouth and Captain Manniug, Porihrid, have this day received official letters in corroboration of the above. ____ JOHN HARVEY. FRENCH PLAYS, ST. JAMES'S TnEATRE.—Their Royal Highnesses the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge, accompanied by her Serena Highness the hereditary Princess of Mecklenburgh Strelitz, and attended by the Baron linesebeck, honoured this theatre with their pre sence last evening. UNIVERSITY or LONDON.—The number of candi dates for the matriculation this year was unuitially large, amounting to 166, COURT CHIC UL 44*-- - L„le osßoßNklitcypty %. The Queen and Prince walk e d at an ear ly houetHitilV morning. His Rnyal Highness the Prince of wales, the Princess. Royal, and the younger members of the Royal Family, walked in the grounds of Osborne. Thiißoyal dinner party - 3 - , - 4te - r(lay flightif - s., the. Dechcks of Gloucester. the Lady GEorgiana Bathurst, the Hon. Colonel Liddell, and Ge neral Wemyts. - , Their Royal Highnesses the— Duches s—of—Gambridge and the Hereditary Grand Duchess of Mecklenburg_ Strelitz visited her Royal Highness the Duchess of Kent on Sunday, at Clarence-house, St. James's. Their Royal Highnesses the Duchess of Cambridge sad the Hereditary Grand Duchess of Mecklenburg Strelitz honoured the performance of the French play with their presence yesterday evening. Mr. Yates had an interview with Earl Grey yesterday, at the Celonial-office. Mr. C. Lushington, M.P., and Mr. Robert Ingham (Directors), Mr. Hardwick (Solicitor), and Mr. Marsh (Secretary), a deputation from the' National Provident Institution, had an interview with the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday, at his official residence in Down. Ing.street. Trio deputation was accompanied by Mr. John Wood, Chairman of the Board of Inland Revenue. Dispatches were sent off last evening from the Colo nial-office, for the Governors of the West India Colonies. The marriage of Lord Pols) , with the Lady Mary Fitzal in Howard, daughter of the Duke and Duchess of Norfolk, was solemnized yesterday evening, in the Chapel Royal, St. James's. SPORTIN G IN TELLIGENCE. T AT TERSALL'Ser-YESTERDAY. GOODWOOD STAKES. 10 to 1 agat Mr. Rolt's Collingwood, 6 yrs,9st alb 11 to 1 agst Mr. Parr's Van Diemen, 3 yrs, sst 6 1 b 12 to 1 agst Captain Wrather's Maid of 'Madam, 4 yrs, 75t 91b—taken 14 to 1 agst Lord Exeter's Tophana, 4 yrs, Est 81b— taken 14 to 1 agst Mr. E. R. Clark's Giselle, 6 yrs, Est 121 b 14 to 1 agst Duke of Rutland's Fire -eater, 3 yrs, 6st 31b 20 to 1 agat Mr. Blake na 'Bacchinialian, 4 yrs, sst 131 b—taken • 20 to 1 agat Lord Eglinton's Plaudit, aged, 7st 71b Collingwood and Tophana were the only horses backed with any spirit; the former was in great force, and at the close of the botting wag first favourite. GOODWOOD CUP. 5 to 8 agst Lord Stanley's Canesou, 4 yrs, Bst 111 b - 3 to 1 - • 3 to 1 sgat Mr. Powney's Ike Hero, 6 yrs, lOst—t 4 to 1 agst Colonel Peel's Tadmor, 3 yrs, 7st 41b— take 9 tot 15 to 1 agat Baron Maltzhan's Standard, 4 yrs, 7st Ilb—taken 20 to 1 agst Sir G. Heathcote's Black Eagle, 3 yrs, 7st 41b—taken ST. LEGER. 5 to 4 on Lord Eglinton's Flying Dutchman—taken 1,500 to 50 agst Mr. Pedley's Chatterer—taken 3,000 to 50 agst Sir J. Hawley's Vatican—taken . DERBY, 1850. 30 to 1 agst Mr. Gordon's William the Conqueror—t 30 to 1 agst Sir R. Pigot's Moultan—taken 40 to 1 agat Baron Rothschild's Decoy colt—taken 40 to 1 agst Mr. Pedley's Sweetheart—taken 40 to 1 agat Mr. Gannon's Deicoon 50 to 1 agat Lord Eglinton's Seneca—taken DERBY, 1851. 5,000 to 75 agst Lord Chesterfield na Br other to Drakelow 10,000 to 150 agst Mr. H. Lacey's Aristippus 5,000 to 75 agst Lord Eglinton's Bonnie Dundee . 5.000 to 50 agst Mr. Howard's Bobadil 5,000 to 50 agst Mr. Howard's Grecian 5,000 to 50 apt Lord Stanley's Storm 6,000 to 50 agst Mr. Powney's Lamartine 5,000 to 50 agst Sir J. B. Mill's Mungo 5,000 to 50 agat Sir J. Hawley's The Confessor 5,000 to 50 8134 Sir J. Hawley's The Ban 5,000 to 50 apt Sir J. Hawley's Balsamo 5,000 to 50 agst Sir J. Hawley's Miss Twickenham colt 5,000 to 50 agst Sir J. Hawley's Testatrix colt 5,000 to 50 agst Sir J. Hawley's Haitoe colt 5,000 to 50 agst Mr. St. George's Bro. to Chanticleer —t SUTTON PARK RACES.—MONDAT. The Sutton Park Stakes of 10 sous. each, h ft, and 25 added. About five furlongs. Mr. Stebbings's Actress, 2 yrs ..• Mr. Stewart's Wilmont, 2 yrs ••• ••• ••• The Birmingham Stakes of 20 soys, each, h ft, and 100 added. Twice round and a distance. Mr. Critchley's Sir Henry Hardinge, 3 yrs ... Mr. B. Green's Lammermoor, 3 yrs ... Miss Bunuey and Skudar also started. The Innkeepers' Plate of 25 soya, added to a Sweep stakes of 3 soya. each, once round and a distance, was wnn - in two heats by Mr. Richards's Jack Cade, beating six others. ... I ... 1 ... 2 -SONNET - TO LAMARTINE. ELECTED IN JULY, 1849, BY TWO DEPARTMENTS- LOIRET-SAONE ET LOIRE. Friend of thy country 1 to her honour true; ' The bold asserter of each sacred right; Guardian of freedom! Thou, whose genius bright In her extremest need impassioned flew, As, to her aid, its blest resources drew, With fervid eloquence, t' instruct, delight, Convince, control, thro' Revolution's night, As, with Promethean splendours, more renew: It e'er devotion, courage, probity, Unflinching energy, undying worth, Demand returns of gratitude on earth; Oh, Lamartine! thy name exalted high! On thy fair brow the bay with laurel blend; (This the reward of MAN! the other Heav'n shall send). J. L. CIIISWIc GARDENS.—HORTICULTURAL SOCIETY'S Exittamose—The extreme fineness of the weather oa Wednesday last caused this celebrated aristocratic July fete to be fully attended. The exhibition of fruits were truly superb. Much curiosity was manifested about some strawberries, named by the growers " Eleanor." They were indeed very surprising both as to size and colour. The growers were Messrs. Myatt and Sons, of Deptford, and Mr. Sheppherd, also of Deptford. The council awarded to each the certificate of merit. They were grown upon Roberts's Registered Horticultural Tiles. We found several hundreds of these tiles in the strawberry garden of the society. They had been em ployed for rearing those early specimens of this fruit. The tiles are made in two parts, elevated upon feet, hich raises them about two inches from the ground. The two parts aro brought together round the stem of the strawberry plant, and the fruit rests on the top of the tiles. The ripe fruit is thus protected against the effects of heavy rains, or continuous wet, and also against slugs, &c., The moisture required by the plant is also retained, while the substance of the tiles absorb the heat of the sun, and thus greatly accelerate the ripening process. The exhibitors before mentioned attributed their success in obtaining their fruit in perfection to their having employed this ingenious contrivance, which is really worth the attention of all cultivators of this fruit, after such publicly attested facts of its value. Mr. John Roberts, of 34, Eastcheap, City, is the inventor, who has also introduced a new form of tile for rearing melons, and another for accelerating the growth of grapes in the open air. His illustrated circular should be in the hands of all horticulturists. BALLOON ASCENT FROM WM:TEAM—Mr. Gypson, the celebrated aeronant, made a splendid ascent with bis magnificent balloon, from spacious premises near the gasworks in this town, ou Thursday last, the 12th, accompanied by a gentleman of the neighbourhood. The assemblageand the The gigan gigantic weather wasrenaartkhaeblays,efiQnnet, immense.persons to witness machine left the earth, as if disdaining the bonds that bound her to terra firma, arid soared aloft in a clear blue s ky, till she became a mere speck in the distance. The intrepid aeronauts accomplished a safe descent at Ingauston Fen, in the direction of Stamford, a trifle short of 20 miles from the place of ascent. Apart from the inte rest created by the ascent some novel machinery attached to the car was a great point of attraction, it gave the car of the aeronautical barque somowbat the appearance of the nautical steamer, having several small sails or paddle-whees on each side the car, both sides of which were worked by ingenious machinery in the centre, en tirely under the control of the aeronaut. Mr. Gypson candidly admits that in the teeth of a breeze the ma chinery would have difficulties to contend with, but at high elevations where calms generally pre vail the assistance to an aeronaut would be great. Should he be approaching the coast, Us was the case with the celebrated Major Money, when he descended in the sea at Lowestoft, near Yar mouth, then the apparatus could be worked to advan tage, and the course of the balloon steered away from the fluid element; at all events it is nu enterprising scientific step out of the long beaten track of aeronau tics, an effort made to advance the science of aeros tation, which we hope time and perseverance may con siderably improve. MELANCHOLY FATE OF AN AERONAUT...-. (FURTHER PA RTIC ELLA RS.)---00115:•_r _ anxiety has prevailed in the vicinity of Car di ff Swansea through out the „k ' ,gars:ling the fate d of an aeronaut n ame d Green (not Mr. C harles Green of V auxhall celebrity), w h o it is feared per ished b y falling i nto the sea after an ascen t he bad made in a balloon from the form er town tobl,alvilohoon had ds beenthe an nounced pro perty(Csrdiofff) hireonA l l v o ay la. s o t i B T r h i s e d cent t e i x r t nok b ,c u it t he thr tr o i u p g , h a n i e l d l ndees departed prevented. to I‘fi m i rr a .n k l Gu ts r ne t be h no e unt a n s a vast concour se o f persons witnessing 'oc k in ra the ascent.thTheevening, machine, ,which was of large dimensions, containing 700 square yards of silk, and requiring 70,000 gallons of gas tJ inflate it, was perfectly sound and secure, Mr. Wadman seeing to its t ffieiency before Mr. Green got into the car. Its course on leaving the earth was over the town in the direction of Penartb, Mr. Green liberating a parachute with a cat attached to it as he passed over. Soon after its course changed, the wind wafting the machine up the Bristol Channel, towords.the Monmouthshire Moors, and was in the course of an hour or so lost sight of by the inhabitants of Cardiff. The next morning, about five o'clock, the balloon was discovered at Wedmore, in Sornersetshire, lying on the ground, about three parts filled with gas, anti not at all injured. No one was with it, but in the car a coat, a pair of boots, and a pocket handkerchief were found. Inquiries have tn , en made along that pa: of the coast after Mr. Green, but not the least intelligence can be elicited of his fate. At dusk on Monday evening, the coast guard, Mr. Cleven son, perceived a balloon crossing the Severn from the direction of Cardiff. It was close to the tea when first observed, and one party states that he saw it dragging through the sea, and suddenly ascend to a great altitude. This leads to a supposition that Mr. Green, finding him self in the sea, pulled off his boots and clothes, and abandoned the balloon, ende avour i ng t o s ave himself by swimming, but perished in the effort. f ......-... 1 tf ) .......,:.,, Pr i %-......,.. 1 1 ...,t_ r 4 la!b . , .... i . t v.-A,. -. • ' - g'r:..," 4.2:4;v3. .