The Sun. — London, England, 1849-03-06 00:00:00

s lab6uring local con ces of th 3 erto sub ato, an that roi rting taa ar, hear.) examined this view how he 3, and his upport the t was. ►. Gentle it was;" take the Tome too )tatoes, he )1e to sup: enough Li., hear.) ie name of rity of the ?finite plan and place maintain enormous by the country. the capital Milt them. ;charge a f having -rates, and tst support us doctrine Blancism; lo him the pport the talk of d say that br poverty ►mmunism. for poor" he Govern" d an article uce the es' other. The all into the advantage , 7. These Lord, svho vith coming vas for the idequate to qv not whet might have le Lord ha d tate of OW old be pros' a, when the rats on the Id be intro' t. )me to the 'flies of this don of par t in looking destitution• the painf ul tion of pew ipted frame. t h e preFeot ape torvinN he oceasio? o give it big . THE SUN. LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 6, 1849. and to appease contrnversy, and th' He will not other measures, and the Right Hon. Gentleman who last ;et, ii na,t rc:et Ie Li to the measure whit was most necessary, and to which ho would give his ()or dial support—he meant a measure for facilitating tt e transfer of property in Ireland. Ile knew well the difi i cul;ies at present attending the transfer of propertyin Ireland, and he found those very ably stated in a lecture lately delivered by Professor Hancock, to the Statistical Society of Dublin. In reference to the legal impediments, the Learned Professor gave instances of one property sold for 1,2001, for the transfer of which the vendor and purchaser had to pay 2001. Another sold for 5001, where one party had to pay 1241.; and another sold for 2004, where one of the parties had to pay 40/. of expenses, or 16 per cent. on the purchase price, the lower that price the greater in proportion being the expense of transkr. The actual amount of ex peuses paid by the vendor and purchaser was only a part —there was the delay which took place before the transfer was completed—the doubt and uncertainty as to the validity of it, which often arose, and the trouble and ex pense which parties were often put to in consequence ; and what they wanted was that there should be inserted into the Bill of last year a clause authorising the Court of Chancery, when satisfied of the legality of the tenure by which the property was held, to give its sanction for its immediate transfer. Then there were other measures which might be applied, of an equally beneficial nature. The Noble Lord at the head of the Government, in making his statement the other evening, had said that Government had advanced to Ireland under the Land Im provement Act the sum of 500,0001, for the purpases of drainage 320,000 L, and in aid of the formation of rail. ways 620,0001, besides 1,000,0001. to be given for the improvement of estates in Ireland. He granted all that money had been given, and from personal expe rience he could state the great advantage which had arisen from the sums expended under the Land Im provement Act. But th ere h a d ever b een d raw b ac k s on the operation of the plan, f or i n many cases p ar ti es had declined making application f or th e gran t, on the ground although they did so, and had relieved the poor in their own neighbourhood, they had no security; but they would be taxed additionally for the poor of other dis tricts.especotfhathde been too so given limited, shouldand would be r et it that the more building of offices and farm s t ea di ngs, an d m ill s , w hi c h were greatly wanted in m any parts o f I re l an d. Th e app s l u ie g d g in 320,0001., given for drainage, was by far too limited, and consequently the drainage operations had been almost suspended. He knew one district where eight hundred able-bodied men were employed in actual drain age works, while the works being suspended these were now all upon the poor-rates; and out of 101 districts where those public works were in operation, about 70 of them had been suspended, while from 20,000 men at one time being employed, there were now only 2,000. As to the 620,0001. advanced for railways, 520,000/. had been given to one, and 100,000/. to another, so that but little good to the country had resulted from that; the railways for which it was given all running in one direc tion. The promotion of railways in Ireland was, how ever, of great importance, and he trusted Government would aid the formation of them, and th a t ot h er measures tending to promote the social condition of Ireland would also be had recourse to. He did not refer to those mea sures so much talked of, such as tenant right, the church revenues, and the suffrage. They wanted m e a su r es which would improve the social condition of the country, and restore confidence to it. That could only be done by the aid of Government security, and he would urge the necessity of such being given. He a s k e d that the tax should be fairly apportioned, and that the industrious and indefatigable people of the north of Ireland should not be burdened with so unjust and in jurious a measure, and therefore moved the following amendment, that after the words " two years," in the original motion, there be inserted "thtit an auxilia r y fund of sixpence in the pound, for relieving the present distress in Ireland, be raised from all property in the country over the annual value of 1504: Mr. W. BROWNE said that he listened with much satisfaction and attention to the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) and considered that his plans were the most practicable, and would best tend to the welfare of Ireland. He did not see what object the Members for that country had in making the opposition to it that they had, for he did not think it to be a measure of in justice or injury, and would ask those Honourable Gentlemen whether it was just or right that England, which is subject to a very heavy taxation, should also be subject to another for their country. He con sidered that this country had already paid too much for the relief of Irish destitution, and would only require of the House to refer to the 15,0 004 paid by Liverpool last year for this purpose, and also to the enormous sums paid by Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, and all the other _manufacturing towns of England. He thought that no opinion could be more erroneous than that en tertained by the Irish people, that 60,000,0001. was due of this country to Ireland, for he was well aware from the returns of the amount of Irish income, that making them an allowance of three and a half per cent. they would be indebted to this country the sum of 370,000,0001., but that it was right to give them credit for the duty on spirits, wine, tea, and tobacco, which reduces their debts to this country to 200,000,000L—(Laughter.) He did not see why the Irish should not submit to this sixpenny rate in aid, and reflect that the people of this country were always ready in cases of emergency to put their hands in their pockets for Ireland.---(Hear, hear.) Sir EDMUND MACNAGHTEN said that the feel ing of the people of the north of Ireland, respecting the present proposition of the Government, reminded him of the case in Scripture of the five virgins who refused ad mittance to the five foolish virgins when they had not oil to burn in their lamps. The people of the north were determined to oppose this measure, and for his own part he looked upon it as impolitic and unjust; for he did - AUDI know why Ulster and Leinster should be made subject to a heavy tax for the distress of Munster end Con naught, particularly when Antrim, Armagh, and Derry suffered, as well as the south and west, from the failure of the potato crop. He admitted that unions should contribute to the support of those in their vicinity; but could not understand that the 43d of Elizabeth intended to extend the system of mutual support beyond the hun dreds or the counties. the name of a sixpenny loyalty, but that Hon. Member was a member of the L.)yal Repeal Association, the object of which was the repeal of the uni with Eng land.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lori (Lord John Russell) knew that the loyalty of the people of Ulster had been severely tried, and it ought not, therefore, to be trifled with. (Hear, hear.) He called the attention of the House to a petition from the union of Armagh, stating their inability to pay additional taxa tion, and complaining of the composition of the Com mittee appointed upon the Irish poor-law. He could bear testimony that no union had more effectually car ried out the law than the union in question. He recol lected that when distress prevailed in Ireland in 1816 and 1817, that all persons contributed according to their means, the landed interest as well as the moneyed in terest, and the consequence was, that the poor were relieved, while at the same time the landed interest was not impoverished. In the present case, however, the in tention was to throw the burden upon the land, and that without any distinction. On this point he could speak of his own knowledge as to the state of things in his own county (Armagh). In one division of it the land was in the possession of resident landlords who dis couraged sub-letting by every means in their power, and pauperism was in consequence scarcely known upon their estates. On the other hand, there was land in the same division of the county, the property of absentee land lords, in which sub-letting was encouraged, and the result was the very reverse—for on these estates pan• perism abounded. He therefore complained of the law, that it made no distinction between resident landlords whose estates were well managed, and absentee land lords, whose properties were so managed as to increase the distress.—(Hear, hear.) nallvioual pa: ishes without concert, who are strueeliag agaisai, the greatest difficulties, and who aro doing ad they can to overcome their difficulties, sad finding then' efforts useless.—(flear, hear.) He says, therefore, " Of al things a commission is the most necessary, both to direct and to appease controversy and the litre." Then, referring to the commissioners, ,he thinks it absolutely , necessary, instead of directing the proceeding at Somer set-house, " that they should for certain times reside in some habitable town iu Ireland—(Laughter)—near to , the country where the plantations shall be." Then I he foresees the objection which the Secretary of State or the Ministers may make. They may say " we need not have a separate commission for that purpose; there is a capital privy council sitting in Ireland; they may dis charge all the duties of the commission, and therefore let it go to the privy council." Lord Bacon, with that habi tual sagacity which belongs to men in office—(Laughter) —gave his answer to such an objection; he said, " when I speak of a council of plantations, I mean some persons chosen by way of preference, upon whom the labours may rest, for although his Majesty hath a grave and sufficient council in Ireland, yet that supplies not the purpose whereof] I speak.—(Laughter.) It will give a greater expedition, and some better protection, in the direction and resolution of matters that are to be con sidered beforehand, if such considerations be left with those who have the control and care of the cause." You would have no difficulty in carrying out this plan.—(Hear, hear,) Such, I hope, is the real desire among all classes to promote the prosperity of Ireland; and such, I hope, is the conviction of the immi nence of the danger—the great and impending danger hanging over the country. I cannot help thinking that if you advise the Crown to select able and qualified persons to meet this particular danger, causing surveys to be made of the whole of these unions, devising the best means of effecting, as speedily as possible, the transfer of property consistent with equity and justice, guaranteeing to the future possessor of the property security against unlimited demands for taxation, and h giving employment to the able-bodied men—so long as ! the necessity for it exists—in making roads to hitherto inaccessible places, and even if you will, employing them upon the cultivation of that land which is now thrown out of cultivation—that such wonld be a much better course to adopt than voting unlimited sums of money, leaving them to be distributed by vice-guardians who are not acting in concert, and trusting simply for the future to the chance of the potato crop being better in the next year than it has been for the 1 last few years.—(Hear, hear.) Again I say, I think the main hope for the improvement of Ireland is in tho transfer of property by means perfectly consistent with equity and justice. For no consideration ought you for One moment to violate the principles of justice or equity. But in the condition in which the greater part of the west of Ireland is at present placed, and the calamitous position to which it is reduced, I see no hope but in the exchange of property—the transfer of property to other hands—tbat transfer to be effected not by individual parties, but through the intervention of Government, or of some commission acting in concert with it, taking a large extent of that district, considering its liabilities, its existing incumbranees, and the best means of rescu ing it from its present lamentable condition.—(Hear, hear.) Well, but I hear great objections to this plan, and I also hear great willingness to come forward with some other means for the purpose of supplying the wants of the country, and I understand that some of those plans will be more effectual after I have got the rate in aid. — (Laughter.) I am very unwilling to assume the func tions of Government, or to propose anything in lieu of the present measure; but all I can say is, that if the repre sentatives of Government should consider that a fair and equitable proposition could be devised for taking a tax upon personal as well as upon landed property, I shall , be most willing, after having got the rate in aid— (Laughter)—after having that vote, I should be most willing to listen favourably to the proposal made by one whose suggestions are entitled to the utmost respect, both on account of his personal character, his knowledge of Ireland, and his attachment to its best interests—l allude to the lion. Member for the county of Limerick (Mr. Monsen). I shall then be most willing to adopt his sug gestions, and substitiate a property-tax levied upon per sonal as well as upon real property, in exchange for the proposed plan.—(Hear.) If I had a property. tax levied in Ireland, I am not sure that I would not consent to a proportion of the proceeds of that tax being ap propriated, for a given time, in order to relieve us from this most painful position; that is to say, if I had a pro perty-tax now in Ireland levied upon the principle of the property-tax in England, but varying in its details, ac cording to the circumstances of the country, I bhould not object to apply the proceeds of that tax in order to assist her out of her present difficulties, considering the pecu liar character of the misfortunes with which she is as sailed.—(Hear.) I confess, at the state of the west of Ireland, I am in perfect despair, if the present state of things is to continue,—(Hear, hear.) I care not whether you can get three or four hundred thousand pounds this year, and the same next year; I am convinced that un less you make some more vigorous effort to rescue that country from the calamities under which it is now suf fering, at the expiration of the two years for which this rate is intended to last, the condition of Ireland will be worse even than it is at present.—(Hear.) There will be no habits of self-dependence contracted on the part of the people; there will be hope paralysed; property will continue to decrease in value; the amount of rates will increase, and the land become perfectly unsaleable.— (Hear, hear.) Unless some vigorous efforts be made to change the state of things, to improve the tenure of pro perty, and give motives for the improvement of the land by limiting the charges on account of the 'poor-law, I foresee nothing but wide-spread ruin and public calamity. —(Hear, hear.) Seeing all this, I think, if you would act upon the principle adopted by James f.—if you could induce security for life and property, give to the pur chaser a good and certain title, and a knowledge of the fixed charge for some years to come—l say these would afford opportunities for improvement in the country, which, speaking comparatively and relatively, no other part of the world appears to give.—(Hear, hear.) The present state of Ireland, and the evils impending over it, appear to render its condition perfectly hopeless: that which is bad will become worse, and the state of things will be getting more and more hopeless. I therefore would advise a strict regard to the plan adopted by James 1., and the adoption of measures which shall faci litate the transfer of property to other hands, give to the new possessors of that property a guarantee against uncertain and enormous amounts of rate, and thereby encourage the exertions and industry of the people. I see a great world that is growing up on the other side of the Atlantic; I see the great facilities afforded of com munication to it by steam; I see.also the great facilities for communication by railway; and I see every reason why Ireland, if an alteration were made in the tenure of property in that country, should be the most prosperous and improving country in the world.—(Hear, hear.) I recollect some lines in a ballad, which were written at the time of the unfortunate rebellion of 1798, when men of talent were directing their abilities and their efforts to the propagation of disaffection, and which made a deep impression on my mind; they were— .. When Erin first rose from the dark heaving flood, God blessed the green isle and saw it was good; In sun, and in soil, and in station thrice blest, With her back turned to Britain, and her face to the west." And her face will still continue to be turned to the west. I think we have now an opportunity of conciliating dis affection in that country. If you leave her to rely upon her own efforts she will be overwhelmed by poverty and despair; but now, by the adoption of vigorous measures, in which every part of the empire can join, it appears to me that you have the power, by a new constitution of property, by the aid of the Government, by the in troduction of new capital for the cultivation of the soil of the country, of materially improving its condition, and, it you should succeed, of extracting from its present state of calamity and affliction the means of securing future prosperity and happiness to herself and strength to the United Empire.—(Cheers.) Major BLACKALL said, though he was one of those who voted for the grant of 50,000/., lately voted by the House for the alleviation of the distress in Ireland, he could not support the present measure. In the union with which he was connected there were fifteen electoral divisions. The rateable property in these was about 80,r00/., and the rate in aid drawn from it would conse quently amount to 2,000/. But in seven of those elec toral divisions the rates, up to September last, had not been paid, so that the imposition of this sixpenny rate would entirely fall upon the remaining eight divisions, who would have to pay both their own share as well as the share of the other seven. But then this rate in aid was justified on the ground that Ireland was exempted from the income-tax, the assessed taxes, and the excise. Now his objection to the rate in aid was, that it would have to be paid principally by the tenant farmers of Ireland. Upon those men the income-tax. though extended to Ireland, would not fall, neither could they be made liable for the assessed taxes, though in operation in Ireland the same as in England, and as to the excise there were few instances in which they could be brought within the reach of the laws referring to that department. The argument, therefore, did not hold good, as the parties on whom the rate in aid was to be imposed could not be brought within the pale of the exemptions stated, though the taxes referred to were imposed in Ireland. He had long considered that all those grants, given for the support of pauperism in Ireland, had been productive of but little good. They had in papers now before the House the state of nine unions in the west of Ireland, and from these papers it appeared, that notwithstanding all the Government aid that had been given them, they were, at the end of last year, in a much worse condition than they were at the commencement of it. On the 29th January, 1848, the number of paupers relieved by those nine unions was 69,303; and on the 29th January, 1849, the number claiming relief was 119.624, being an increase during the year of 50,321. The debts of those unions on the 31st January, 1848, amounted to 34,8421., and on the 31st January, 1849, to 83,1881., showing an increase during the year of 48,346/. It also appeared from a calculation by the vice guardians of those unions of the probable in come and expenditure of them for the five months com mencing the sth March, 1849, that there would be a de ficiency of 18,777/. ; so that, notwithstanding that there had been granted by the Government, in 1848, 131,360/. in aid of them, and rates collected to the amount of 54,352/., there was an increase of the debt upon then during that year of 48,3461., and an increase of the number of paupers relieved of 50,000. He did not mean to say but that had the money thus given in aid of these unions been expended otherwise than in the purchase of food for the paupers, better results would have followed; but so long as it was expended in that way, and not laid out in a manner which would give employment to the people, and develop the resources of the country, no other results than those which had taken place could be expected. He !had always supported a poor-law, as he considered that must form the basis of any measure introduced for the improvement of Ireland. It would not, however, better the condi tion of the country alone, it must be accompanied with Mr. CLEMENTS said - that the tax intended to be levied upon Ireland was a question of vital importance to every Member connected with that country. It was acknowledged that a sum was necessary to relieve the distress which prevailed in its unions. It had been argued that the tax should not be a local tax, but that it should fall upon the general revenue of the country.—(Hear, hear.) But as the case was a press ing one, they must waive that question at present, as it was manifest from the temper of the House that the money that was required must come from an Irish source. Much had been said about unjust taxation, and that eleven or twelve millions had been raised in this country which Ireland did not pay. Now, upon that subject he would say, that the question was whether there was not a compact made with Ireland at the time of the Union, and that according to this compact this country was bound not to tax Ireland for a certain por tion of the public debt.—(Hear, hear.) If that were so, Ireland should not be taunted with not paying her pro portion of taxation—(Hear, hear)—and he thought that a Committee should be appointed to investigate the sub ject and set it at rest—(Hear, hear)—as he for his own part felt strongly on the conduct which had been pur sued in that House and out of it upon that subject.— (Cries of " Hear, hear.") With reference to the pro posed rate, it was very easy to say that it amounted only to sixpence, but there was the principle of laying on such a tax at all—whether a law should be passed by the united Legislature imposing a tax upon Ireland.—(Hear.) It was very easy to say that there were Irish Members present, but still there was the principle of laying a tax upon Ireland alone; and, in fact, the Irish Members formed a very small portion of the Members sent to that House. It was said that the rate was only to be passed for two years, but it was felt that if the principle of such taxation could be esta blished, it would,be extended indefinitely. The Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir Robert Peel) had said last year, with reference to the West Indies, that no single measure would be a remedy, but that a series of mea sures was necessary, according to the particular locality. Such was undoubtedly the case with Ireland, but be feared, should the rate in aid be carried, that little at tention would be paid to other measures. They saw the feeling that was exhibited in the case of the Hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume), with reference to the grant of 50,000/., who said that he considered it to be an English question.—(Hear, hear.) The next question was, as to the way in which the rate was to he levied; for they did not know whether it was to be adjusted on the new poor-law valuation, which had been very unequal as between union and union—the difference being so great in some instances as 50 per cent. How, he wished to know, was this rate to be levied? It was liable to the remarkable objection that in many unions it could not be carried out. They had seen the effects that had been produced in many of the western districts, owing to the manner in which the rates pressed there. A panic had seized the people in those districts, and he feared that it would extend itself all over the country. He wished to know from her Majesty's Government whether they intended to make a special rate, and if so, whether it was their intention to levy it in the summer, a time when the means of the people were most ex hausted? He would suggest to the Government that the best time to levy the rate would be in the harvest. With respect to the suggestion of the Right Honourable Baronet the Member for Tamworth, that it appeared advisable first to obtain the rate in aid, and then to im pose a property-tax, he (Mr. Clements) must say that those taxes would fall most heavily on the farmers, and would in such operation prove measures of great severity. With respect to the proposed rate of 6d. in the pound, if it was to be levied as a rate, what ever the Noble Lord might say, or whatever the Chan cellor of the Exchequer might say, as to its being only a rate for two years, the people of Ireland would not be lieve them. Mr. BOURNE directed attention to the system of gra tuitous relief' which prevailed in Ireland prior to the introduction of the poor-law to that country; and with respect to the pecuniary assistance given from time to time by the people of England to alleviate the distresses of the Irish people, said he was not insensible to the mo tives which aetuated them; but of the manner in which the distribution of the aid so contributed was carried out he could not but complain, as at once wasteful and de moralising. The proposition of the Noble Lord was nothing less than to make a State provision for paupers. He was opposed to the proposed tax, and to the mode in which it was proposed to levy it. The people were not in a condition to pay this tax; they had not resources or means and th e e y q u w a o l u t l o d i b t e , n b o u t t o g n i l v y e n t h a e me condition i En tio g n l i t s o h m i e nd et u i s t t , r b y u ,' t ' would cheerfully pay not merely 7d. in the pound, but one shilling. He assured the Government, that unless they endeavoured to assimilate the area of taxation to the area of taxation in this country, and to encourage emigration on an enlarged and sound scale, no plan which they might propose would prove successful. Mr. ROCHE said that neither the last Hon. Member nor the Hon. Gentleman who preceded him (Mr. Cle ments) had shown them how the starving population of Connaught were to be saved from their present fearful position. If he said "no" to this vote, in what position would he be in? If he turned to the Hon. Member for Buckingham, and agreed to say " no" to the motion be fore the House, that Hon. Gentleman would say nothing, but would button up his breeches pocket. If he turned to the Hon. Member for Northampton, he, too, would button up his breeches pocket; but would, at the same time, ask him to read his speeches by which he proposed to give a tax of one and sixpence in the pound to the Minister, instead of sixpence. If he lookel to his own countrymen on the opposite benches who opposed this rate in aid, he would ask them would they give up the grand jury system if he supported them in opposing this vote in aid? Not they. Will they give up the Church Establishment in Ireland, to which fourteen times more was given than ought to be? No; they would cry at once, "No surrender." Then he turned to the question of the rate in aid, and here he must observe that they ought to recollect that there were hundreds of persons daily dying of starvation in Ireland, and that England had declared she would not give a shilling to relieve that starvation. This being so, he had no alternative but to support a rate in aid, to feed the poor population in Con naught. The best thing about the rate in aid was that it was temporary. If he thought it was not to be so he would oppose it.—(A laugh.) He denied the correct ness of the historical recollections of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth. He looked upon the plantation of Ulster by the English in a very different point of view from the Right Honourable Baronet, who had that night quoted an extract from a song preva lent in 1798. The Right Honourable Baronet had fa voured the House with a quotation from a ballad of 1798. Now, as the Right Hon. Baronet boasted of the planta tion of Ulster and the benefit which it had conferred on Ireland, he (Mr. Roche) would quote ono stanza from an Irish ballad written by one of those who were planted in Ulster two centuries after the plantation.— (Loud laughter.) It was very easy for lion. Gentlemen to raise a cheap laugh at his expense. He did not sup pose there was any man who did not sometimes make a slip of the tongue—(Laughter)—and certainly he must admit that it was somewhat the propensity of his coun trymen.—(Laughter.) This was a song—(Cries of " Sing, sing," followed by shouts of laughter.) He could not sing without music, and certainly did not consider the interruptions of Hon. Gentlemen a very pleasant accompaniment.—(Great laughter.) He would now read the lines— Mr. SCULLY said that he fully agreed with the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) respecting the limiting the area of taxation, and the rating of family charges in cases of annuities and such other measures as he (Lord J. Russell) bad alluded to relative to Ireland, but to the last part of his speech he had an opposite opinion. That was not a question of party, or of religious feeling; and he felt sorry to see that some of the Members thought it to be a measure particularly affecting the Protestants of the north; but such was not the case, because it affected all, as well Catholics as Protestants. Again, he felt bound to state that if it were a landlord question, as had been remarked by some H on . G ent l eman th a t h e s h ou ld be the last in the House t o suppor t th a t o ppo s ition to it; but, as being a question that more imme diately affected the farmer and the shopkeeper, he felt bound to give all the apposition that he could to the present measure. He objected to it on three different grounds; first, because it was insufficient in amount to meet the distress for which it was intended: secondly, because it w ou ld b e i n j ur i ous i n t h e mo d e of it. application; and thirdly, because it would be unjust in the mode of its being levied. He would ask the House to look to the report of the Commissioners, and it would find that 250,0001. is required for twenty-one unions; but when it was to be remembered that those unions would require relief for at least twelve months, and that no less a aura than 587,4801. would be necessary, he felt fully assured that the Hoase would be called on before the end of the present session to support tome other similar plan introduced by the Ministry. He should next say to the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he stated he would be the last in the House to support such a measure, if it were not a temporary one, that the Times said on the following morning, that the rate in aid would be scarcely sixpence in th e poun d , f or that the Imperial Treasury would pay the remainder, whateyer would be requisite for the alleviation of distress in those unions; and he therefore wished to know if mo re would not be required of the H ouse un d er those conditions, as he feared that those unions would be long embarrassed. He believed that nothing could tend so much to demo ralizing the people of Ireland as doling out relief in that way. If they would vote for a permanent relief, it would be quite different, for it w ou ld pl ace the people in such a position that they could not apply again to the House. On the whole he looked upon the present measure as a tinkering one, and as one whose only effect would be to support bad landlords in the west of Ireland, at the expense of the honest and industrious of the north. He would with to know from Government where those de faulting landlords reside, and who they were; for they justly merited to be publicly known.—(Hear, hear ) Thirdly, he said that it was unjust in its mode of being levied; for, if the House would look to the Commis sioners' report, they would find that there were only forty fi ve unions whose money in the hands of the Treasury exceeded their debts; and that thus, out of rng was as impractic it would be seen 131 unions in Ireland, there were only 45 solvent, and on those 45 unions that tax of 25 0 , 000 /. was about to b e r a a b i l s e e d a , s but t s w u as c h a im m p o o s d s e i b loef, forati that, of the 36,000,0001., the income of Ireland, there is only 13,000,0001. subject to the poor-rate, and, there fore, there are 23,000,0001 exempted from this tax. He should, while he had a vote ipthat House, vo t e aga i nst any such measure, for, in addition to the p oor - rate l ev i ed in his co un ty (Tipp e rary), there is also a county cess o f 84,9581., and he, therefore, felt it his duty to oppose the present proposition, particularly when ho was aware that starvation and death prevailed in that county. If Go vernment had introduced any such measure as that alluded to by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) fur the employment of the labou r i ng c l asses , and for the development of the i ndustri a l resources of the country, he should with the greatest pleasure support such a measure, but to the present ho was totally opposed, . and he should add, that he fully agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet, when he stated that the land in that country should in a great measure change hands, and that railways and arterial drainage should be more extensively carried on and not such measures as Encumbered Estates Acts. The Hon. Gentleman here referred to the opinio n o f t h e Master of the Rolls in Ireland against this measure, as one calcu lated to do more injury than good , and a s b e i ng one t h at was beneficial to none but English conveyancers ; and next alluded to the letter of the late LordGeoege Ben tinck to Mr. Ryan, of Tipperary, resp ect i ng t h e repro ductive benefits of his railway plans, by which 120,000,000/. income would be realised, an d 360 , 000 labourers an d f a milies, =ranting to 1,980,000, would be supported for 15 years ; and argued that the Cus toms and revenue would be thus materially benefited. Sir W. VERNER said, that being a Member for a county in the north of Ireland, ho felt deeply interested heb of the p eo pl e o f Ulster. of their l o y a lty i n th e asis in the question before the House, an d wou ld s h ort l y trouble them with his views upon th e su bj ect. M uc h hHaed would been t said el about l themthat northern counties was that they should be the suppor ters of the union with England. The Hon. Member for Dublin (Mr. Reynolds) had described that loyalty under " The battle of the Diamond (Far let the watchword fly), Where craven Papist rebels crouched, Upon the earth to die, slain by devoted men and true, Who fought with heart and blade, And slaughtered in their ambush vile, By swords they had betrayed." —(Laughter.) He did not think that the continuance of that spirit of religious differenees—the planting on the necks of a Catholic population an Orange and Protestant oligarchy—would either benefit Ireland, or confer any honour on this country.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet proposed to create a new plantation in Con naught, and he was to do this by means of a commis sion. Now, he could tell the Right Hon. Baronet that the people had no hope from commissions. If, indeed, the Right Hon. Gentleman would have the land in Connaught purchased and let out in small farms, and thus create a substantial yeomanry, why he might effect some good. But he would like to know who was to purchase this land in Connaught ? Was he to pay for this purchase out of his estates in Cork?—(Hear, hear.) Now, if the Right Hon. Baronet would not stop here, but go with him, and consent that the tenure of land in Ireland should be altered, then ho would have some hope for the fate of Ireland, from the suggestion thrown out by the Right Hon. Baronet. In conclusion, he had only to express a hope that the rate in aid would not be pressed until after the harvest. Sir A. BROOKE looked upon the proposed rate in aid as a most mischievous proposition. lie attributed the present state of Ireland to misgovernment, to the misconduct of the Irish landlords, and lastly to absen teeism. Ho admitted that there were many goo d land. o l a o tt ht d h s o em i n e Caughttoo landlordsnsntr u ghgal de a n e d f t against t n h e M c a ot n hu s en t et difficulties ca b un u l d t t ea t sl h l no r . e wh e i cd f h o tuthrhot they ye s tu h h a ee d ca t o o bns te c en o nt n de t pe e sd n . h o (aH n t et a ha er p ,y o b o o r eu ag rh ad . t o i H n ae p y o p v ra e o ri ph s oe h sa e evd d y tt c oa o x u pu n u t pt r o y na . ) double poor rate upon the property of absentees.— (Hear, hear.) He contended that it was the duty of the Government to adopt strong measures, and one of these wool;! be to oblige landlords having waste lands on their states, to improve it. In Mayo alone there were 470,000 aer,s of waste land which was reclaimable. Why should not the landlords be called upon to reclaim this land ? If they did not do to, the Government ought to step in and take the land, and having rcclaiaa - d the land, return any balance which might be left to the landlords. The resident landlords were, in many in stances, paying 15s. in the pound, not in the shape of poor -rates, but in employing labourers on their estates. Sir G. GREY said that the several important admis sions which had been made in the course of this discus sion, ho was happy to say, would enable him considerably to limit his observations, inasmuch as those adinis,ions had very mach narrowed the questions at issue. The first admission which had been made was that there did exist in some of the western unions of Ireland an amount of distress which rendered it impossible to relieve the destitution in those unions from their local resources— (Hear, hear)—but rendered some extraneous aid abso lutely necessary in order to avert scenes of misery and starvation which he was sure the House of Commons would not be prepared to sit by and see enacted without some strenuous endeavour, some continuous exertion to prevent it.—(llcar, hear.) It was not necessary for him to go into the papers which had been laid before the House to show what was the actual state of that distress, because that part of the case was not controverted, nor was the necessity denied of something being immediately done to avert the result to which he alluded. In the necessity for doing something all parties concurred. —(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Member for Tipperary had said that the object of the measure was to relieve the landlords and not the people. He had to say that that was not the object of the measure, which was pro posed to afford relief not to the landlords, but to those of the people who were proved to be in the lowest state of destitution. The Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, and whose opinion was entitled to the highest respect, had made some observations from which he (Sir George Grey) was not prepared to dissent. The Hon. Gentleman had said that the present condition of Ireland was the consequence partly of centuries of misgovernment, and partly of the bad conduct and neglect of many of the Irish landlords themselves.— (Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman admitted that great exertions had been made in many localities to collect the rates, and that many of the landlords had not only contributed largely in the shape of poor-rates, but had also made considerable sacrifices in providing em ployment for the people. While he agreed with the lion. Gentleman that great credit was due to the owners of property in the union of Ballina, for the man ner in which they had paid their contributions to the poor-rate, he must concur that if they wore to go into the causes of the existing distress, it would be impos• Bible to deny that the owners of property in that part of Ireland were not wholly free from blame—(Hearehear) —and that the system pursued by them of letting out the land in small patches for the purpose of growing potatoes—and which before the failure of the potato crop were capable of maintaining large numbers of per sons by their produce, and which were consequently let at very high rents—had produced a pauper tenantry, men without capital, who had not a shilling in their pockets when they paid their rents; and the estates having descended from father to son, were at length made the mere subject of a nominal rental. Why, the very extract the Right Hon. Gentleman had read from the report expressed most forcibly this important fact, that the distress in the unions was not attributable to the poor-law, but that it had its origin in the first failure of the potato crop.—(Hear, hear.) The House were not, however, now inquiring into the causes of the distress. They found thousands of people on the very verge of starvation, and the question was, how were they to be fed? The assertion so very generally made by those whose opinions were entitled to the greatest weight in that House, because they were fully cognisant of the circum stances of the country, and discharged their duties faith fully—the admission so often expressed by these Hon. Members that the time had come when some steps must be put to the repeated applications to Parliament for grants of public money, was entitled to weight.—(Hear, hear.) But what was the question? Why, it was this —if the aid now indispensably necessary for the suffer ing was to be rendered by Parliament, whether the pro posal of her Majesty's Ministers to raise 6d. in the pound, limiting that rate in its amount and also in its duration, was not the least objectionable mode in which the tax could be levied?—(Hear, hear.) He felt himself bound to look at the main objections to the proposal. The Honourable Member for Middlesex seemed to think that it had been introduced by his Noble Friend at the Head of the Government very suddenly and without any prior intimation. Now, if the Honourable Member had made himself acquainted with the pro ceedings in the Committee, he would have known that his Noble Friend was there asked if ho had any plan to propose for the relief of Irish distress, or any permanent alteration that he was prepared to make. He then made the announcement that he should be ready to lay the prevent proposition before the House ; and so far from it having come suddenly forward, his Noble Friend had stated his views to the Committee, and their opinion was not asked upon the resolutions until they had been afforded sufficient time to consider their import.— (Hear.) But the main objections to the proposal were of two classes, and some were expressed in the House, and others out of doors. The Hon. Member for North amptonshire (Mr. Stafford) had led the van in the House, but he had hardly redeemed his promise to point out its injustice, impracticability, and impolicy,‘ for although he had occupied a considerable portion of time in proving its injustice, he had said nothing on the other two subjects.—(Laughter and applause.) He seemed to have lost himself upon the question of the area of taxation. But he had strongly contended that these Parliamentary grants ought to cease; and here the Hon. Gentleman was perfectly consistent, for he had voted against the former grants. He had voted against the 50,0001., upon the ground that extrinsic aid of that nature was destructive of that self-reliance which he thought so necessary for the social elevation of the people of Ireland. He (Sir G. Grey) agreed with him most fully, that the principle of self-reliance could not be cultivated too highly ; and the Government had in duced the inhabitants of the distressed districts to exert themselves fur their own support, and to use all the means within their reach for the relief of destitution, before they felt themselves justified in applying to Par• liament for a grant of public money. But when the principle of self-reliance was used as an argument at a time when the House was endeavouring to prevent star vation, those who put it forward ought to remember that self-reliance was of slow growth in Ireland, and that however much we might wish to cultivate that prin ciple we could not expect to render it immediately available.—(Hear, hear.) Then the Hon. Gentleman went on to say that he was in favour of equal taxation in Ireland, all over the country, for the purpose of re lieving the distress; but how was that proposal con sistent with the cultivation of the principle of self reliance? If the money were to be raised and paid into the imperial treasury, and if it was then expended in the shape of grants to the unions, the whole principle of self reliance would be involved and destroyed. The pro posal, however, was one that answered itself, for the Hon. Member had admitted the policy of taxing ono part of Ireland for the support of another. He (Sir G. Grey) concurred with him in believing that an indefinite ex pectation of Parliamentary assistance had a most injuri ous effect on the habits of the people; but he entertained a hope that as Parliamentary grants would be no longer the system pursued—(Hear, hear)—these indefinite ex pectations would die away, and the principle of self reliance would be cultivated.—(Hear.) He now came to the speech of the Hon. Member for the county of Limerick r. Monsell), with regard to whom he might say that he listened to his addresses with profit and instruction, because his opinions were not only sincere but of an exceedingly practical nature.—(Hear, hear.) He ad mitted that the necessary funds ought to come from Ire land, but he objected to a rate in aid, and inclined rather to the opinion that an income-tax would be less objec tionable. The Hon. Gentleman who moved the amends Talent would also substitute an income-tax for the rate in aid, but ho would apply that tax to local purposes— erni• gration probably being one of those purposes. What was the difference in principle between that and .the present proposal? It was sail that the rate in aid was a new rate; that the whole of Ireland had not before been called up on to contribute in a similar manner, and that in England and Scotland the application of it was not so extensive as was now proposed. But it seemed to be forgotten that an income-tax for local purposes was in fact a rate in aid.—(llear, hear.) The question, then, to consider was, whether that tax would be more acceptable to the Irish people generally than a rate in aid.—(Loud expressions of dissent from the Irish Members, and ironical laughter and cheers from the English and Scotch.) He was not prepared to argue that the income-tax should be imposed on Ireland, but if Hon. Gentlemen could show the Government that the Irish Members were anxious to have an income-tax in Ireland rather than a rate in aid, that would be a strong reason why their preference should bo consulted. —(Renewed expressions of dissent from the Irish Mem bers, and laughter and cheers from the English and Scotch.) He confessed that he was not surprised at these very manifest symptoms of dissent to the propo sition, because he believed, looking at the language made use of in and out of the House, that if the Govern ment had come down and proposed an income-tax, even for local purposes, the opposition to that 'measure would be infinitely stronger than it was to the present. —(Hear, hear.) With regard to emigration, the Honourable Gentleman mu s t h ave mean t that as a no benefit of relief to the western un i ons , o therwise_ he was b would be conferred by it upmight aon those unions; and perhaps bo one willing to admit that emigration gh mode of relief. At all events, it wa be considered hereafter, provided it were su t bj made to appear e that could ct that it would be an effectual metho d of meeting the . evil. —(llear.) v that an income-tax applied to 'pie much more now than a local purposes ile w m a n s st : 3- a P ta ri x ne o l i that kind, for instance, to rate in aid. To apply county purposes would b e gs .very novel principle, though he did not state this asap itive objection to the scheme. His Noble Friend (Lord John Russell) seemed to have been mistaken if it were supposed that he intended the rate in aid to apply specially to Ulster. Was the opposi tion i n Ulster to the rate, or to th e pr i nciple of any taxes being imposed on Ireland generally for the p u rpose o f relieving distress?—(" To the principle."_ Laughter.) It appeared from the report of a meeting held in the county of Tyrone, that the parties seemed to la bour under the impression that Ulster was now specially selected for taxation; but that was a delusion, for the rate would be a general one for the whole of Ireland. In Net., it would bo a national rate; and the people who objected to it on that or any other ground ought to re collect the grants and leans made to relieve Irish distress already by the Imperial Parliament. lie begged to call the attention of those Hon. Gentlemen who complained that English farmers and capitalists did not bear a fair share of the burdens for the support; of the poor to a re • turn from December, 1846, to December, 1847, of the number of Irish paupers who received relief out of the poor -rates of some of the metropolitan districts—the numbers being 159,000, and the expense 75,0004; these treme n, poverty that d, to contribute your shsr to th,ir rttantensnee an Zne r ." - 5 • ' • Parish, and if necessary to tee pati,rl tk.,)otio a.,.0 Call upon them to make up the deficiency in the amount raised for the support of the poor in the distressed Parish. At first sight th ire appears no great justice in this course of proceeding. W by, on the mere ground of vicinage, should one neighbourhood which supports its °wit poor be called upon to support the poor of another with:which they have no concern? might adopt the same course in Ireland; but I fear that the result would be only to extend the area of distress.— (Ilvar. hear.) I therefore prefer a general rate in aid.—(Hear.) There is another matter connected with the administration of the poor-law which inclines me to call upon Ireland, at the present time, to make a vigorous exertion. I want to know upon what principle Ireland has refused to repay us the advances which we made for union work houses in that country. We consented to advance 1,200,0001. for the erection of union workhouses in Ire land, and, at the same time, a certain sum was advanced for the erection of similar buildings iu England. The advances made in this country have been met by the Payment of 4 per cent. interest and by setting apart 2 Per cent. annually for the reduction of the capital of the debt. I have not heard of any repudiations on the part of England. lam not aware that the guardians of any Union in this country have declared that it is inconvo nient to repay the money they have borrowed, and that, therefore, they will not do it. With deep regret I have heard it urged in the course of these debates, as a reason fOr not compelling the repayment of the money lent to Ireland, that it could not be obtained without the risk of r ebellion. —(Hear, hear.) I believe that those who use that argument do great injustice to the peorle of It eland. jv hen this country has lent important aid to Ireland, cannot believe that any Irishman, least of all any Member of this House, would seriously counsel that the repayment of the money should be resisted. But hove are we to get the money back? We advanced 1,2 00,000/. out of the Consolidated Fund to the Irish Unions, in the full conviction that it would be returned, and the whole of the repayments amount to only 36,0001. There is a manifest inclination in many of the unions to repudiate the repayment. True, there are some honour able exc e p t i ons; t h e un i on of lsewtonatels, for instance, has paid all it borrowed; but the sum repaid by all the unions amounts to only 36,000/., and I see with alarm that the prosperous unions in the north make use of this argument—" What have you collected from the south? If you have collected nothing, we in the north will not pay."--(A laugh.) If Ireland would make a vigorous effort to repay the sum advanced for the union work houses at once, instead of spreading it over 18 or 20 Years, so that it may be applied in the way in which it is proposed to ;appropriate the sixpenny rate, I am not sure that the House would not accept the arrangement and forego the rate.—(Much laughter.) Is not that laugh an argument in my favour? If the mere suggestion that the Irish unions should pay a just debt is received with an incre dulous laugh, as if the proposal was manifestly absurd — if you ridicule the notion that a debt which has actually been paid by England should also be discharged by Ire land, I confess lam inclined to listen to the proposition of a sixpenny rate for the support of the Irish poor with much less unwillingness than I might otherwise do. (Hear.) I say again, that if the Irish Members will guarantee the repayment of the 1,200,000/. in three Months I will vete against the proposition of the Govern mera.—(Cheers and laughter.) But if not I will vote for it, in the absence of any other practical suggestion for relieving the urgent necessities of the poor of Ire land. I, however, wish to advert to a matter of even greater importance than the present difficulty, arising cut of the present condition of Ireland. I am anxious that the House should direct its attention to what may hs the condition of Ireland for the future.—(Loud cheers.) Suppose the House should consent to impose a rate upon the whole of Ireland, in order to obtain the means of relieving it from its present difficulty, we should not thereby b relieved from the obligation, in Point of duty, of considering the future prospects of that country,—(Hear, hear.) I have read with painful atten tion the papers which have been laid upon the table in connexion with this subject, and, taking the case of a Single union, which, after all, is a fair sample of the Others, I will state briefly the unquestionable facts pre sented by these papers, which have been given to us foul the highest official sources, and then ell' upon the ' , louse to consider what are the prospects of Ireland after Present relief shall be extended to that country. The union to which I propose referring is that of Belittle, and I fix upon it because it is that to which the latest papers refer, and also because it stands separate from other unions. Mr. Bourke reports, that on the 27th of January, 1849, there were in the Ballina Union 3,270 Persons occupying the workhouses, and 18,879 re ceiving out-door relief. Mr. Hamilton calculates that the number of persons likely to require relief before next harvest will probably amount to 27,000, including in and out relief; of this number 4,300 are able-bodied, and 14,000 dependents. The lamentable state of this union cannot fairly be imputed to the pro prietors. I ask those who think that the landlords have not made exertions to meet the calamity to read these Papers. The amount of rate and arrears in the Ballina Union is 17,0001., and 12,000/. have been collected, as the two officers whose names I have mentioned state, With but little trouble, without the necessity for frequent le gal proceedings, and without assistance from military or police. I have read the evidence of gentlemen con nected with the union, showing the exertions they have made to meet the crisis, the number of persons they have found employment for, the reductions they have made in their establishments, their willingness to do all in their Power to mitigate the distress prevailing in the union, and I think that credit is due to them for their con duct. The officers employed by the Government state that the striking of another rate, under present circum stances, would extinguish the little hope which is still to be found in the union. One of these gentlemen says that " there are thousands of acres which were formerly oc cupied and cultivated which have now more the appear ance of having been devastated b an enemy than any thing else I can compare them to." We are informed by the same authority, that the " first failure of the potato chop brought to light the miserably rotten social state of is part of Ireland."—(Hear, hear.) Every sentence is Pregnant with alarm:—" The poorer classes are baying Potatoes for seed, and would as soon part with their lives as consume them."—(Hear, hear.) " The landlords are in dread of the undefined prospect of rates, and are doing as little as they possibly can." It is very doubt ful whether the future success of the potato crop would enable the landlords to pay fair wages for fair Work." "It the potatoes succeed, the principal effect will be to raise the price of land, to bring about the old state of things notwithstanding the bitter experience of the last three years."—(Bear, hear.) Hew melan choly is the prospect here presented to us, and recollect, is not attributable to the misfeazance of the landlords, ° e they have made every effort in their power to alle viate the distress. There are two points deserving of serious consideration arising out of the state of things • described in the papers to which I have been referring ; first, the danger of relying upon the potato for the future sustenance of the people; and, secondly, the cir . etirnstance that a large quantity of land is going out of cultivation in the Balling Union; thousands of acres, we are told, appear as if they had been devastated by an ene my. Whilst we are taking means to provide present • assistance to the distressed people, is it not incumbent ! I n us to consider what measures can be adopted for meet ag future calamity?—(Hear, hear.) There are, per haps, no means by which such an abundant supply of austenauce for the people can be obtained under existing Ci rcunistanccs as by the cultivation of the potato; but e nothing could be more unwise than to rely permanently "Pon that root as a staple article of food after the expe rience of the last three years.—(Hear.) In addition to th e Potato, the inhabitants of the Ballina Union were for !aerie, well supplied with fish. The total number of men formerly registered as employed in the fisheries was 2 ' 989 , and of boats 455; now the number of men so employed is only 1,368; and of boats 224; and the boats Thusare described as being in very bad condition. we have concurrently a diminution of food and an abandonment of cultivation, together with the pros pect that, unless vigorous efforts be made to improve both the moral and physical condition of the people, they will continue to rely upon what experience has shown to be a most deceitful article of food, With the chance of a recurrence of the cala mity, which, for anything we know, may not be casual, but the result of some mysterious agency. It appears to me that the state of the Jeanine Union—and it is but the type of the rest—suggests matter for grave consider ation. There are 27,000 persons to be provided.for until the next harvest. It is not without hesitation I venture to offer any suggestion for diminishing the danger which I see in perspective; but I will commuuicate to the House what my impressions are. Almost the only thing in which I see a hope of safety is the introduction of new proprietors who shall take possession of land in Ireland freed from its present incumbrances, and enter upon its Cultivation with new feelings, and inspired by new hopes. (Cheers.) I wish for no violation of the rights of Property.—(Hear, hear.) Nothing can be more easy t han to suggest remedies, if we choose to disregard the rights of property, which it is the first duty of It British Legislature to uphold. But, at the same t e i me, much property in Ireland is , in point of fact, " s e'w of little value to the proprietors. on account of the encumbrances upon it, and I cannot help thinking that it is possible for the Government, with the sanction of the House, by taking an enlarged view of the subject, to devise some means by which new capital may be ins troduced into the cultivation of the land in Ireland and t he existing proprietors rescued from the disappointment a nd despair in which they are involved. Suppose you •a million in Ireland by the rate in aid—that Eng land contributes another million—how do you mean to tp a PPly the money to rescue Ireland from her difficulties? b ° You mean to let things go on in the present course? ° You mean to rely on the potato? Will you again r un the risk of doing so? Before doing so, is it not Your duty to consider every means by which a better tita te of things may be introduced into Ireland? I re vert to a period when a state of things existed in Ireland .20t, very different from that which now exists there,— I al lude to the reign of James 1., when the settle ment of Ulster took place. At that time a lar ge quantity of land was forfeited in six counties of Ireland, but not so large a quantity as, I believe, might now be obtained in the west of Ireland by an ar ocangsment with the proprietors—en arrangement devoid i nsustice to which no objection would be made. The 'ands forfeited after the rebellion of Tyrone, in the °cooties of Donegal, Tyrone, Derry, Fermanagh, Cavan, and ss Armagh, amounted to 500, e O3O acres. The transac- On is described in nearly the s ame manner by all con temporary historians, but I think the best account is to found in Carte's " Life of Ormoncle." That author sa ys, that " These counties had suffered exceedingly in the war, and were reduced to a very desolate condition. The country was f u l l of woods and fastnesses , w hi c h, on fa vourable junctures, would give encouragement to rebels, e a u d at ali times serve as a retreat to robbers. Great usher s of the inhabitants had perished by the sword— "lnch greater by famine ; the rest were reduced to so ex- they were net Ale. if witlir•rf._ of war wsre likely t coetin aue o time of la ace. ' This decription, exc= piing that part ehich refers to woods and forests, rffording shelter to robbers, is very applicable to the state of Connaught, and many phrts of the west of Ireland. Sir Arhur Chichester was the Lord-Deputy at the period in question. He caused sur veys to be taken, and it was decided that the lands to be transplanted should be divided into three proportions of 2,000, 1.500, and 1,000 English acres, and these es cheated lands were disposed of to 104 English and Scotch, 56 servitors, and 286 natives, all of whom gave bond to the Government fur the performance of covenants. The Lord-Deputy caused a parochial church to be erected. and a glebe set out according to the size of the parish for each incumbent. The plantation was extended to Leinster. Great injustice was done to individuals by this proceeding; but, says Carte— " The grievances of particular persons did not pre vent the general good intended to the kingdom by these plantations. In cons: quence of which lauds were cul tivated and greatly improved, towns and villages built, trade and commerce carried on and extended. The people in general, weaned gradually from their former idle and disorderly life, began to learn and practice civi lity, to apply themselves to business, to use labour and industry in their several stations, and to relish the sweets of peace." If it be possible to make any new settlement similar to that of Ulster, my earnest advice, which I am sure will be in unison with the universal feelings of the House, is, that no religious distinctions should be al lowed to enter into the arrangement.—(Cheers.) It may, perhaps, be impossible to apply the principle of the arrangement to the extent to which it was carried in James the First's time, but unless it be applied to some degree there is no hope of the future improvement of Ireland. If, after raising a rate in aid, you leave matters exactly as you found them—if you rely ex clusively on grants of public money, there is no hope of permanent escape from the calamity which afflicts us; but if, without violating the rights of property, you place the land in possession of new proprietors without distinction of religious profession, you will lay the foun dation of the future prosperity of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) An Act was passed last session to give facilities to the acquisition of property in Ireland, but I fear that in consequence of the alterations introduced into the measure in the Lords, its object of intro ducing new proprietors into Ireland wiil be defeated. I offer any suggestion with the utmost hesitation. I have no party motive whatever in this question.—(Hear.) I make every allowance fur the situation in which the Go vernment is placed, by the failure for the last four or five years of the crop upon which the people relied, but I feel this most strongly, that if we are content to vote money, or give a rate in aid extending over the whole of Ireland, or to trust to the potato, and to the present distribution of property, finding property so encumbered and in so hopeless a condition, that thousands of acres are thrown out of cultivation, with no prospect of being cultivated, then at the expiration of the two years for which this rate is to be granted the state of Ireland Will be no better than it is now.—(Hear, hear.) I very much fear that if you rely merely on individual purchases you will make no great advance. It appears to me it might be prudent to appoint some commission for the purpose of considering the whole subject, and the possibility, by their advice and intervention, of effecting the change in property which I believe to be indepensablo to any great improvement of that country. If you choose to leave the present proprietors in possession of their pro perty, hardly receiving a nominal rent, encumbered with debt, with every discouragement to exertion, and so overwhelmed with rates that it is impossible to find a purchaser or occupant, then I see no hope for the salve don of Ireland. But if, through the Government or Par liament, you can establish some intermediate agent to get possession of that property on equitable terms, and then can arrange for the re-distribution of it, I should see some hope of her salvation.—(Hear, hear.) If you do nothing of the kind, what wiil be our condition? I have given you an account of the Ballina Union. I see no better hope for others. If reliance is to be placed on the potato, and you have a good crop, there may be a better state of things, but each union is acting inde pendently; and, unless some great attempt is made to rescue Ireland from the grievous calamity impending,— unless you can, by some means consistent with justice and equity, introduce new capital, new views of im provement, new feelings, into that country, in place of the despair and poverty which now overwhelm it, I see no hope of her future regeneration.—(Hoar, hear.) I would do injustice to no man, but I would try the intervention of a competent authority, acting with the sanction of the Government, and with the Government, to take a comprehensive view of the condition of the whole of these unions, and to attempt to suggest means by which there should be that transfer of landed pro perty which I believe to be the root of improvement in Ireland.—(Hear.) Despair is overwhelming the pro prietors.—(Hear, hear.) The sixpenny rate is merely to administer relief to some of the unions. I object to a pecuniary burden which would discourage either the occupant or the purchaser. You see what was done in Ireland in the reign of James I. with 500,000 acres in Ulster, the refuge of robbers and assassins—the division of property, the allotment into districts of 2,000, 1,500, and 1,000 acres. Unless you can give some guarantee as to the poor-rate you will have no purchaser. I earnestly advise you, then, to consider whether you cannot, by the intervention of some such com mission as that I have mentioned, facilitate the ar- • rangements for the transfer of property. I have read the rules of the Court of Chancery—l dare say they may be very proper, but every one would say, "If you can give me only a nominal guarantee of 10 per cent. for my outlay I will go any where else."—(Hear, hear.) Cannot you assist by the intervention of a com • mission composed of men of the highest character? Surely you could find men who would gratuitously devote their time to rescue Ireland from this state—who would be the medium between the proprietor and the purchaser? The condition of 20 of these unions is so wretched, that you find yourselves either unable to trust the local guardians, or that they are throwing up their appointments and you are trusting to vice-guardians to administer the poor-law in those districts. Would it not be possible, by the intervention of some such com mission as that I have spoken of, to assist in solving the legal difficulties, to consider what arrangements should be made for the transfer of property, to suggest the mode in which it could be effected, giving hereafter a title that should not be liable to question, seeking the aid of Parliament for that purpose, confirming., the title in soale shape or other—limiting the amount of charge on account of the poor•rates to which those lands should be subject, giving a guarantee, as far as you can, against any violation of property, and also against legal disturbance on account of flaws in the title?—(Hear, hear.) I, for one, should see with great satisfaction the Government interposing with the intention of re-distri buting that great estate which is on sale in Connemara —I mean the estate of Mr. Martin.—(Hear, hear.) What do I see now? lam obliged to support 2,500 able bodied men, and that will continue for some time. Sup pose I could make any amicable arrangement for fact!. sting the transfer of the property. Here, then, is fertile land going out of cultivation because the charge upon it is so heavy that no person, as tenant or occupant, will cultivate it. What is the prospect then? The people are clinging to the potatoe, and, that failing them there is but the unsatisfactory remedy which the Noble Lord offered, of an incursion of paupers into Scotland or England. But depend upon it that you will have the able-bodied men coming to interfere with the able-bodied labourers of this country, while ail the women and children will be lett on the land, demanding relief from the poor-rates.—(Hear, hear.) I think it improbable that any person will purchase that property without the intervention of a third party — with the uncertainty of the poor-rate, who would have anything to say to it?—(Hear, hear.) What is the use of continuing it in the family? I have not the slightest doubt that the present proprietors, whoever they are, would be willing to do what they could for its improve ment, but to have those 2,500 men transferred to some other proprietor, who would do nothing for the future improvement of the property, would be a great evil. But suppose I had an intelligent commissioner by whose in tervention that property might pass into the hands of proprietors who would employ those men in the im provement of the estate—and I believe that in the dis • trict of Connemara there are valleys as fertile as in any other part of Ireland—if, I say, I could appoint au intelligent and able commissioner who, for a time, would take possession of that property—who would open means of communication—who would, if you please, divide it, giving security for ten or fourteen years to come that the amount of poor-rates should not be ex ceeded, and calling into action the labour of those men, then I am laying the foundation of future prosperity, in troducing new men into the country, and avoiding that which, I think, was a fatal defect in the Act of James 1., namely, the establishment of a religious distinction.— (Hear, hear.) I would give to all persons equal advan tages, and would not make any attempt to remove them from the soil on account of their religious views. In that way I would infuse new blood into Ireland, new enter prise, and a new division of property ; and I would give a stimulus to industry by guaranteeing the future pro prietor against being sunk and overwhelmed by the amount of the poor-rates. I see no other mode than some measure of that kind that could be adopted to mi tigate the present evil. I greatly doubt whether, under the Bill of last session, any amount of property has been sold. I greatly doubt whether you must not have some intermediate authority between the present proprietors and the new purchasers. It was a curious thing, that when James I. determined upon the settlement of Ulster, he asked the opinion of the highest authority. He went to Lord Bacon for his opinion, and though he knew nothing about Ireland, the treatise he wrote, on account of his prophetic sagacity, is worth the conside ration even of the present more enlightened men.— (Hear, hear.) At that time there were 500,000 acres of land out of cultivation ; and now, if you delay ap plying a remedy, you will have a greater extent of land to deal with in the west of Ireland. The evil will go on increasing ; the population is not diminishing, but the fisheries are exhausted ; hope is paralyzed ; the peop!e, instead of fishing, are perhaps relying upon the expecta tion of getting assistance of an eleemosynary character. Take eere, then, that charitable aid does not paralyze all exertion.—(Hear.) The more you habituate the people to rely upon public grants the more you are destroying the sense of independence, and diminishing the amount of effort which ought to be made by the people.— (Hear, hear.) Now Lord Bacon, without having any local knowledge of Ireland, consul'ed with James I. its to the best mode of treating the subject. the treatise which he wrote upon the subject is well worth reading even at the present time. There are many most excellent and extravagant and misappled compli ments to the ability and talent of James I.—(Laughter) —and some most ridiculous proposals; but still there are some good things in the book, and well worthy of atten tion. It is entitled "Lord Bacon upon the Plantations of Ireland." Ha says—and really one would almost think he was writing for the present time,—" Of ail things a commission is most necessary, both to direct s U ce.) districts not including the city of London north of St. Lltke's, for which the returns were n re4l 3 •(*--; (hear, hear.) And yet that w as b ut a s ,150rn06?014.7.-fati of the relief aff or d e d b y this country t 77alti relief of Irish paupers. By a returissike had received from Liverp oo l, i t appeared t 1141i.:414rhXgtp..._? "-6 ,- the last fourteen weeks no l ess than 51,000 • obeli passengerseners were landed at that port from Ireland —a s - a S.M.Y.V jty, he was happy to say, being for emigra tion, of which the people of Liverpool could not complain. as it circulated more money, but deducting—thein and some others the balance of absolute paupers thrown upon the rates was 15,000, or more than I,oooa week„—(Hear. hear.) Large amounts for Irish paupers were also paid by Manchester and other larger towns, and in the gene ral report of the Poor-law Commissioners for 1848 they stated that the poor-rates had exceeded the ordinary amount by 800,000/.; and that the greater part of that was on account of Irish pauperism. It could not, therefore, be said that English farmers and others did not bear a fair share of the burden of poor-rates even for Irish poor.— (Hear, hear.) The representatives of the north of Ire land objected to a rate in aid, not . hecause they preferred an income-tax, but because they objected to any tax in any shape for the purpose of alleviating Irish distress. The Hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. Mansell) objected to the inequality of the valuation; but surely that was not a conclusive argument against the rate. If it were, it was equally so against the poor-law itself as against the county rate. The objections to an income-tax, as a mode of imme diate relief, were very great, on account of the neces sity which would arise for creating machinery for its collection; while, in the collection of the rate in aid not a shilling of extra expense would be incurred. He cons curred in all that had been stated as to this being a temporary expedient. The Government would certainly not have made this proposal to the House if 'they had it not in contemplation to propose a modification of the existing poor-laws. His Noble Friend had stated the other night the outline of the modifications which they intended to propose, some of which would be most im portant and beneficial in their operation. But did any one suppose that they could discuss and adopt all these suggestions, along with this resolution for a rate in aid, and do it in sufficient time to make the rate in aid avail able for the immediate purpose for which it was required? These modifications, however, would be proposed, and he trusted, assented to by the House, at a later period of the session. He had already stated that measures had been taken by the Government with reference to the area of taxation; but before any satisfactory conclu sion could be come to a great many preliminary steps were required to be adopted. As to the suggestions thrown out by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) he was certain no one would dissent from his proposi tion, that the Government was bound to look beyond the present moment bound, not only to pros vide the means of relief fur the existing des titution, but also to provide, as far as they were able, for the future, and to look forward to the adoption of permanent means by which these portions of Ire land might be placed in a condition to maintain them selves, without having recourse to these continual calls for external assistance, and whereby the holders and occupiers of property might be able to support their own poor. He (Sir George Grey) had stated what be conceived to be the cause of the distress ; and, in looking to the remedies which might be applied, though he was less sanguine, perhaps, than the Right Hon. Baronet in thinking that Parliament or the Govern ment could apply any direct remedy, ho most entirely concurred in the opinion expressed by the Right Hon. Baronet, that the remedy was to be sought in the trans fer of property from the hands in which it now was to those of others—from landlords who had inherited their property overwhelmed with burdens, and with a surplus income not sufficient to enable them properly to discharge their duties to those around them—to men who were possessed of such an amount of capital as would effes tually enable them to discharge the duties of their posi tion, and to provide employment for the people on their estates.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Honourable Baronet had not exaggerated the difficulties of this subject. He had alluded to the Act passed last session for facili tating the transfer of land ; and he must say that it was only by slow experience that a conviction was forced upon gentlemen accustomed to the forms of law and equity, of the necessity of dispensing with some of those forms which in their notioas derived from education and long-cherished habits were essential for the protection of the rights of property.—(Hear, hear.) No doubt those gentlemen thought it necessary to lay down these rules for the protection of property, and they would be slow in receiving the conviction that they were unne cessary; it was no less true that the Court of Chancery was not a court likely to assist in the removal of the obstacles which prevented the transfer of property.— (near, hear.) At the same time, it was no doubt very desirable to accelerate the process of transfer. It was undoubtedly the interest of the holder of pro party in those parts of Ireland where heavy poor-rates ex isted to dispose of that property; and what was wanted was to make it the interest of the people to buy. The thing that was wanted was so to modify the poor-laws as to induce persons to enter the market without being deterred from purchasing by the weight of poor-rates, which, no doubt, was the principal cause why the Act of last session had been comparatively inoperative. The only remedy for this would be to relieve the purchasers from the rates in arrear, which at the present moment were deterring them from making purchases. Whether the Commission which the Right Hon. Baronet proposed would accelerate the transfer of property or not was a matter for consideration; but if the gentlemen com posing it were to have power to decide all the questions that might be raised about the titles to property, it would be necessary that they should be lawyers; and if so, the parties would find themselves in muck the same state as the Court of Chancery. At the same time, he should be sorry to express a hostile opinion to a proposal of that kind without its being presented in more detail. He believed that the Con nemara estate, to which allusion had been made, was likely to become the property of one of the great insurance companies; it was to be sold either to gether or in lots. The Right Hon. Baronet had spoken of selling it in small lots of one or two thousand acres. Probably he was not rightly informed of the nature of the property, a great portion of it being of that descrip tion that it could not be divided. He hoped, however, that by means of the Sale of Encumbered Estates Bill of last session very many of the obstacles to the transfer of property would be removed, though it might be by a slow and gradual, but sure, process. He trusted the House would not reject the proposition before them, without being satisfied that there was some other course which would better secure the desired object. Viscount CASTLEREAGH moved that the chairman should report progress, and ask leave to sit again. Lord J. RUSSELL hoped the debate w ould now be allowed to close, and that the sense of the Committee might at least be taken on the preliminary resolution. After a few words from Sir J. WALSH, a division took place on the question of adjournment. For the adjournment ... 104 Against it ••• ••• ••• 251 Majority ... —147 Lord CASTLEREAGH again moved the adjourn. ment. Lord J. RUSSELL amid great confusion, was under stood to accede to the adjournment, with the under standing that the debate should be resumed this day. He hoped that gentlemen who had notices on the paper would consent to postpone them. BRIBERY AT ELECTIONS BILL. Sir J. PAKINGTON moved that the following gen tlemen be nominated a Committee on the Bribery at Elections Bali—Sir John Pakington, Lord Ashley, Sir Frederic Thesiger, Mr. Bouverie, Viscount Mahon, Mr. Brotherton, Mr. Walpole, Mr. Legh, Sir John Hanmer, Mr. Honman, Mr. Wrightson, Mr. Napier, Mr. Mait land, Mr. Mullings, and Mr. Sheridan. Colonel SIBTHORP opposed the motion on the ground of the lateness of the hour, and moved the ad journment of the House. Sir J. PAKINGTON said that he had given ample notice of the composition of the Committee, and he could only say that he had endeavoured to constitute the Com mittee as fairly as possible. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY objected to the placing of the same Members on several Committees at the same time. It was impossible for them to perform the duties that were expected from them on these several Committees. He thought the business ought to be more fairly dis tributed amongst the Members of the House generally, and should not bo left to some thirty or forty Members of it. lie knew instances of Committees where the chairman was the only person present to conduct the in qui!), and cross-examine the witness, although by the rules of the House it was necessary that there should be five to constitute a quorum.—(Hear.) Mr. W. PAT IEN said that the last point alluded to by the lion. Gentleman was worthy of consideration.. 4'ed The abuse of which he complained certainly 'existed list session, and the House ought consider to should not whether the rule which applied to private Committees be extended to public Committees,name ly, th a t t h e clerk of the Committee s hould notif y to the chairm an when there were not five me mbers present , and th at all f ur ther pioceedings s hould cease till the req u i s i te num ber was present.—(Hear.) The names of several Members, to whom no objection was made, were then nominated. On the motion that Sir J. Hanmer be one of the Com mittee,r. .AIMACKENZIE objected to his name standing. The House divided, when there appeared-- For Sir J. Hanmer 31 Against Majority ••• ••% As there were not forty Members present, the House necessarily adjourned at One o'clock. EW ASSURANCE COMPANIES.—The following offices were founded last year :—The IlLgis, British Empire (Fire), Counties, Dundee, Etonian, Engineers, Gresham, Indisputable, Independent, Mentor, Metropo litan Counties, National Mercantile Fire, Prudential, and Scottish Marine. In 1844 eleven offices ceased to exist; in 1846, ten; in 1847, five; and last year thirteen. From 1844 to 1646, no less than 146 companies were projected, but only seventy-six were founded. Out of twenty com panies projected up to the close of the last year, nine have commenced business. At the present moment nearly a dozen new companies are in the course of pro jection. As many of these emanate from irresponsible portico, and as it is not unlikely they may have to deal with a large amount of private capital, which there is no thing to prevent them from iw properly squandering, it may become a question whether it would not be well for the Legislature to require not only that the promoters and managers of these undertakings, but those of the most ancient, the most successful, and the most respectable companies should periodically publish in the Gazette the number of shares issued and paid upon, with the amount, the number of policies issued , a nd their amount, the amount of money lent on secur ities, and t he extent of as a J oi n nd t stock Ass companies are Assurance chr on i c l e their required res p toe e c d t i o v . capitals,e_ r h c Reporter for alfarch. - q34413CL1