The Sun. — London, England, 1855-07-07 00:00:00

Ewale° this (10 ,-- 1 0 0 ,---- AVE - r 4 , f A SUN OFFICE, Six o'Clock. TELEGRAPHIC DESPATCH FROM THE CRIMEA. - Lord P,anmure presents his compliments to the editor The Sun, and has great pleasure in transmitting the enclosed intelligence which has thin day reached him from General Simpson. WAR DEPARTMENT, JULY 7. " CRIMEA, JULY 6, 6 P. lii. " Cholera is decidedly on the decline. `The siege operations progress favourably." SPAIN. MADRID, July s.—The Queen sets out on Satur day for the Escurial. The Cortes have taken into co nsideration a proposition relative to a voluntary lean of 2 30,000,000 reals. The Clamor Public° has the following details of V_le stoppage' of a diligence, near Burgos, in which the English Ambasiad.or, Lord Elowden, was tra velling The diligence was stopped near Buitrago, n place at 32 in horses are changed, by a band of factious persons , in number, under the orders of the brothers Hierros, all of whom were well mounted and in uniform. They ''en told the driver to stop ; he, being greatly fright- Z ed ' did so at once. They then ordered the English m i i i i l, uessador to alight, and having recognised who he was ed him if,.be were travelling with any Spaniard of eeral opinions.. He replied in the negative. They then I t ) i l it some other questions to hini which he answered, and eY told him that their cause was the defence of the King a nd of religion, and that they were incapable of wanting respect to any one. They proceeded, however, to n —at nilse the Ambassador's trunks, and having found in oe of them a cross of the Order of San Fernando, they e rearked th a t h o must h ave won it i n the p rece di n g civil War th by combati n g Don Carlos. Lord Howden replied at every man was at liberty to defend his opinions, 4 , 4 d that w h en h e did so cour ageously and honestly he • a las worthy of respect. They, at length, told his lord :IP that h e m i g h t con ti nue hi s j ourne y, b u t detained to"°. other pas s e n gers six hours, without, however, be :tlng rudely to them. When they went away they 4 the h orses , w hi c h had been prepared to change at - , the Post-house, and left mules in their stead." - WOOLLEN TRADE. (From the Leeds Mercury of this day.) ( 1 0 1 : 141 ens, July 6.—There has been a fair steady trade g e e in the warehouses during the current week. 4'lee°4l of the largest London and Scotch buyers, b as " as others from other parts of the eountry, have s o in the town, and there has consequently been v j l te activity and a good business done by those houses wl l 4 ° ' connexions are among the London and other tweet,; buyers. The country trade houses are rather twe.' as the present , time is the transition period be an) " 11 the seasons. The export trade continues without material change. r oa nrosn, Thursday.—We have had. a rather slacker of '`et to-day in all branches. There is a large quantity 44:1%).01 supply, and spinnors purchase with reluctance p h 4e2 itation, owing' to the farmers asking fully one ta e- t :Y More than the market can afford in its present • In Yarns there is no change to report. _ They in • te m ain firm. ,In Pieces there is not; quite so much cluing. For spring goods orders are nearly completed. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS---(YES'TERDAY.) THIRD READINGS 3. The following bills were severally r ead a third time and passed :—Hedon and Hall, &c., B oads ; Sligo Gas ; St. John's College, Oxford, Estate ; West Bromwich Improvement ; Bridge Estate ; Bohan and Nightingale Lutd (Amendment) ; Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway (Amendment) ; Gun Barrel Proof H ouse (Birmingham and London) ; Wolverhampton New Water (Amend- Inent) • 'West Somerset Mineral Rails ay (A mendment). The ' Earl of SHAFTESBURY presented a petition 'rean the London City Mission agaim st the alterations made in the Religious Worship Bill. On the motion of the noble lord, the petition was i ead at length by the clerk at the table. Lord BRGUGHAM called the a ttention of their lordships to a misstatement that had appeared in I'ne of th e d a il y papers , w hi c h p• ur ported to be a report o f th e procee di ngs th a t took place in that house upon the hearing of s p ar ticular case, by I the n o bl e lord. That report sta t e d th a t h e (L or d nu g h ain) had, by an expression of ()I ,inion, turned the tnajorit y of the house in favour o f a p articular party to the suit. The fact was that for three weeks before an d a fortnight following the hearing of the cause he was not in the house at all. He did not attri ute any blame to the paper in quiestion, nor to the comment that bad been made in the cal ise, which, if truly t6Ported, were both just and proper, be .the attributed the misr epresentation to some disaffected . party that was ag grieved by the accusation. After a few words from Lord CAMPI BELL, Th T he LORD CHANCELLOR con firmed the state -114 of his noble and learned friend. The fact was the Z ll 3' law lords present at the time were Lord St. Loand himself. He (the Lord CI iancellor) thought . e judgment of the court below be maintained. er , ° _, ll St. Leonerds was of a contrary opinion, and ac 'ing to the rule in such cases the judgment of the eourt below was confirmed. The subject then dropped. , RELIGIOUS WORSHIP DILL. or T „n. B Earl of DERBY moved the second readi n g 'ale bill. He regretted the alteration made by the elect committee, which did not meet with the approval °I tile noble earl who had originally the charge of the b After a sharp conversation between the Earl of 0 1113 Y, the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, and the Bishops of pox and OXFORD, the bill was withdrawn. 111 e Assizes and Sessions Bill was read a third time " 4 " Passed. FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. he T Friendly Societies Bill was read a third time and Pass e d Lord CAMPBELL expressing the satisfaction with abl e h , in the course of its passage through th e hous e, he nad seen introduced into it a clause tending to guard against an abuse of the principle of assurance by burial so cieties, whi c h might have the effect of leading to those ho rrible crimes which excited so much attention a few Yea r , ago. '4 IE COURT OF EXCHEQUER (IRELAND) BILL. This bill was read a second time. The Stock in Trade Bill was read a second time. Their lordships then adjourned at a quarter past eight o'nloek. t iOnSE OF COMMONS--(YESTERDAY.) THE CONDUCT OF THE POLICE. Sir J. SHELLEY asked the Home Secretary of State W hether it was his intention, after the allegations made !ti the p e ti t i on presen t e d t o th e h ouse yesterday respect -44g the c on d uc t o f the police on Sunday in Hyde-park, "e institute a searching investigation into their conduct Sir GEORGE GREY said he had not been able get to investigate the charges made in those petitions, l id repeated the statements eby him yesterday 'with reference to the conduct of the police. He had re eei°ed a number of representations from persons , some e , -e ciplaiebeg of the conduct of the police, and others ap cl"jog it. DUNCOMBE, to be in order, moved the ad turament of the house. (Laughter.) The inquiry to e searchi ng an d to sat i s f y th e public must be one to Which the public should have access. A mere rep ort i t e m the Chief Superintendent of Police or the "me - office be thought would not be considered tlatiefactory by the people. Let a commission be ap ?lnted for the purpose of inquiring into the allegations t at had been made against the police, with full power examine witnesses, and hear persons by themselves vor counsel, when he had no doubt the charges tio o uld be fully substantiated. The inquiry men fled by the Secretary of State would be a iercplete farce in the eyes of the public. With reeard t ° 4 what h e had read of the soldiers and the Home Secre ttlYe reply that the commanding officer or commandant wag the police for what they had done, the officer 3 only a sergeant. ,Sir G. GREY—I am not aware tbatthat was the case. . e 7 DUNCOMBE said what he wanted to know 4}l aB, what had been done to those men? If by crying females on the commito the park for their conduct to they had ed an offence against the civil w e i l w er, they ought to be punished as well as men b_ ° wor e fustian jackets. The honourable mem ote.r ref erred to a letter wr itt en by th e sen i or cura t e St. Botolpb, with reference to the Sunday """Ig Bill, whi c h,if true, showed the metropolis to be 'q t . great danger. It was from a minister of the Gospel and who stated that P this dition came, d : P e ople of the escr district of Houndsditclt were the most lig l ' a ded ruffians that could be found ire the metropolis. Sundayved the people would have been peaceable last e f had the police left them alone. Some da "" people who assembled there on that , r y had probably never been there before, from the ex iteßeathinin. g t a e e 4 ekole they used, because they were beard to say the u never seen eo nice a place. Victoria Park FM to be compared to it, and they should visit it oet He warned them against keeping the people visit oi th andark again for should they again it, hobstruction f the Poll ee „ meet wit rom mod'. the would proceed, no doubt, to enforce g o lit- (Hear, hear.) If it was too late at this ingent would i; i n i o l ll f the sessio n to appoints commission to examine uet of the o matter he hoped that an inquiry the most a G GPrdYi ces e . x . t 13 ' be instituted into the con- Siression " f""cal said he had never proposed any specific Park on Sunda of inquiry into the proceedings in Hyde °, and otar e h- Plet y, but, as he had promised, a full, corn inginquiry should be made with regard THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JULY 7, 1855, to the conduct of the police on that occasion. (Hear, I letter. He had, however, sent a copy of the letter to Dr. hear.) The honourable member (Mr. Buncombe) pre. 1 Hall and called for his answer to it. sinned that the inquiry was to be conducted ! Me. DUNDAS wished to say a few words in the way of explanation. A short while ago, in the beat of debate, he miler the auspices of the Home - of fice, or eer the our- I e i v. lan eic n trayed into an expression to which a different veillance of the police ; but such was certainly not his I meaning I convey. Ho therefore reeretted having made use ' had been attached than that which he wished of thehed to (Sir G. Grey's) view wen he first proposed the inquiry; and further, the hon. member had acted very unjustly I expression. (Bear, hear.) ~ What he had meant to say was in leaving it to be inferred that t he in q uir y would be simply this, that he hoped the right hon. baronet at the ' one of a partial and unsatisfactory nature. Ho (Sir G. head of the Home Department would not spare any effort Grey) pledged himself that the inquiry should be con- to maintain peace and order on Sunday next. ducted in a manner which would be perfectly satisfare Mr. F. PEEL, replying to Lord W. Graham, said the tory to _ the public. In justice to the police, he i principle upon which the compensation was granted was felt bound to say that if t he p ublic went to the simply this, the War-office first ascertained if the horse I h to ad th b e een t l s o i !t in the public service, and that being proved Park for the purpose of conducting themselves dis properly and peaceably the police would protect them ; cover whatsi • was n on t 1. ( 1 ) 0 f the valuell i n n: . s r i l e , steps an were taken to imal. (Hear, hear.) bat if they went there for a con trar y p ur p ose, the p olice, With regard to what ha d fallen from the hon. Member they might depend, would be ever ready to do their duty (Mr. Stafford), there could be no doubt that if the letter without fear either of intimidation or m isrepresentation. of the army surgeon was to be believed the hospitals in the After a few words from Mr. DUNCOMBE in reply, Crimea must be in a most discreditable state ; but at the Col. LINDSAY, in defence of the soldiers alluded to, same time it was impossible for him to give any answer to said that soldiers would never be found opposing the the allegations until he had had an opportunity of refer olice in the execution of their duty. ( Hear, hear.) ring them to Dr. Hall and the other heads of the me p Mr.J W. FOX said there was no blame whatever dical department in the East. From the communications , . attached to the soldiers ;but when the promised inquiry however, which had been received from the Crimea , Go vernment were led to suppose that the hospitals were well took place he should be prepared to furnish the names of supplied with everything that was necessary, while as for the severa l' respectable men, who were witnesses to t he attack of the 18th, a report had been received from Dr. Hall police striking old inoffensive men, walking quietly which represented that every precaution was taken in an along, and also striking women and children. One ticipation of that event. He therefore could hardly bring gentleman, a clergyman, was walking accidenta ll y himself to be lieve that the statement of this regimental along, and he told him (Mr. Fox) that he saw the surgeon could be borne out ; but, as he had already men - police strike people with great and unprovoked fury, tioned, Government had sent out a copy of the letter to and when he (the clergyman) began t o address the Dr. Hall, and called upon him to furnish some explan a t ion police, remonstrating with them, there was such about it. As to what had fallen frem the hon. member for a threatening attitude assumed by the police Edinburgh, he could add nothing . to what he stated on the same subject' last week, ptsm b c iithe migh state that . since then towards him that he thought it more prudentbeen made forremoving the mi te make a rapid retyeat. He would take that oppor- litia from arrangements had turtity of saying that he had received a communication DIPLOMATIC SERVICE. from Houndsditch relative to the statements made in On the motion for going into committee of supply, that house by the hon. member for D orsetshire (Mr. Mr. EWART called attention to the propriety of este- Ker Seymer), as to the sales that ta ke p lace there on blishing some test in the e xamination for candidates who the Sunday, and stating that those sales afforded a wished to obtain employment in the diplomatic or consular' cheap and ready mode of purchhse by persons who service. could not attend such places on other days.. (Hear, and Lord PALMERSTON said the subject had been under a laugh.) consideration, but as yet no definite plan had been fixed on. Mr. KER SEYMER said the statement he bad made ACCIDENTS BY MACHINERY. with reference to Houndsditch fair had not been contra- A conversation took place on the motion of Col. Dunne dieted, but rather corroborated. As to the existence of for the production of papers connected with the death of a Houndsditch fair, without any reference to the workman in a mill a t Oldham from unfenced machiner y . Sunday Trading Bill, it was a disgrace to the metro- -The Government had no objection to give the papers, and polls. . Mr. Heywood, Mr. Fox, Mr. Cheetham, and others de- Mr. BOWYER bore his testimony, from personal fended the conduct of the masters and blamed the med dlin interference of Parament with he observation, to the extreme brutality o f the p olice on facto g ries. In the end, the li papers were tgrantmed.anagement of Sunday last in Hyde-park. THE NEGOTIATIONS AT VIENNA. OFFICERS' INCOME TAX. Mr. GIBSON rose to ask for explanations from the Go- Mr. H. BAILLIE asked the First Lord of the 'garment relative tothe opposition of her Majesty's Minis- Treasury whether he was disposed to take into conei ters to the views of their colleague, the late British pleni deration the question that officers upon foreign service should be exempted (as was now the case in India) from potentiary at the Vienna conferences, in reference to the payment of income tax. plan proposed by Austria to be submitted to Russia for Mr. S. KNOX, before the question was answered, the purpose of putting "an end to Russian preponderance asked whether the additional pay of ls. per day was to in the Black Sea," as stated in the circular addressed by be given to the soldiers who had served, and were Count Buol to the diplomatic agents of Austria, dated Vi serving in the Crimea I enna, May 25. Tee right hon. gentleman said he had made Mr. BENTINCK deprecated the course adopted of some inquiries on Monday last relative to the policyof her asking questions similar to this, and that of the hon. Ma j esty's v Government in the Eest' and to a certain statement member for Finsbury, in which latter case the feeli n g s of ' made in a diplomatic circular which had been published in the people were more likely to be inflamed than sub dued. With various continental newspapers. Ho was afraid the course he regard to the probable disturbance on Sunday next, in Hyde-park, if_ such took place, he then took did not harmonise with the feelings of the hou s e , thought it would be attributable more to the ill-advised although it might be technically within ther rules, consi remarks of the hon. member for Finsbury than the con- dering the subject which had just been brought undertheir duct of the Home Secretary. notice. But if he had committed any breach of their rules Mr. DUNDAS bore his testimony to the forbearance of decorum he now begged to apologise for having done so. of the police on Sunday last, in driving the canaille back and to state that he had no intention in any way to dis from the carriage way. The police could do no other garage the chez-eater of the late commander-in-chief, or to than they had in driving those rascally boys who assem- manifest indifference to the motion under consideration at bled there, yelling at every person who passed in a car- the time. (Hear.) The Prime Minister then said that he liege: The majority of persons assembled were youths, would not be led into a discussion which would rouse the under 20 years of age. He advised the Government, on venom of the peace party. [Lord PALMERSTON- " No, I the next occasion,.to avail themselves of a 6-pounder. said ' hostility.' "] He had never mentioned the peace Mr. WILLIAMS honed the ineluilY would be a strip- party in his inquiries, which would , perhape , h ave more appropriately proceeded from a member of the war p art y , gent one, when it would be found the conduct of the as they related to the proceedings of the Government dur police was disgraceful. ' ine the recent occurrences at Vienna, and to matters upon Lord PALMERSTON, in reply to Mr. Baillie s ques wEich every member of Parliament , t, whether he be tion, said the reason why the Indian officers did not pay longed to the war or to the peace party, had a right to the income tax • was on account of their being explanation. The noble lord the member for London ac paid out of the revenue of the India cused him of having misrepresented facts, and if that company. Officers on active service have a field allow- were so it was quite fitting that he should be set right ; ante besides their pay more than the amount of the in- but he should be the last man in the house to make come tax to meet the additional expenses of the cam- any intentional misrepresentation, and he should be paign, and that. field allowance was proposed to be ex- happy to retract any statements be had made which tended to the men at the amount of 6d. per day, which were proved to be incorrect. His statements were founded on public documents which had appeared in the would allow them to have some extra comforts, and make newspapers—authorities, no doubt, not so good as actual provision for their families. access to the papers in the Foreign-office, but still the only Mr. ROEBUCK—I rise, sir, to speak upon a very ones within his reach. He complained that during the serious matter. Words have been used by those who late debates, when the house was invited to come to a most should not have uttered them—words have been spoken important decision as to the future prosecution of the war, in this house which should not be used by any English they had not been treated with the consideration and gentleman. The hon. member for Linlithgowshire has openness they had a right to expect, and that they had not recommended to the right hon. gentleman the use of six- been put in possession of all the occurrence s whi c h had pounders against the peopie—(hear, hear)— transpired at Vienna, or with the real opinions of her more than that I thought military force should be used. Mr. G. DUNDAS (interrupting)—l did not intend Xfajesty's Government, which they were entitled to hear, •i h o e rder that t they miiginhatubsevreidd was a . N t vile a c r o t n h c a lr conclusion. Mr. ROEBUCK The hon. member has apologised - came to c o o a m l o in t a o s that vote if imporatasnit clear that t hZ wou y ld e for his words. now peeped out indirectly through public documents from The SPEAKER—The established rule of the house is other countries had been put into their possession—if they that if exception is taken to words used by any hon. , had been told, forinstance, that the British plenipotentiary member in the course of debate, a motion should be atVienna differed fromthePrimeMinister, that the British made to have the words taken down immediately. plenipotentiary thought that proposals had been made which promised an honourable and safe solution of the dis- Mr. ROEBUCK—I rose, sir, to make that motion. pute between England and Russia? If they had been told (Order.) at the same time that this proposition had not been sub- The SPE4KER—Whatever words may have been witted to Russia, in consequence of the refusal of the noble spoken, they should not be taken exception to after that lord's colleagues to take that course, would not many mem time. I bers have hesitated before coming to the conclusion at Mr. ROEBUCK—I rose immediately with the in- which they arrived, those facts not being before them? tention of moving that the hon. member's words be taken At any rate, if that wore the case—and he had a right to down, but I yielded to the hon. member for Lambeth, presume that it was—they were now entitled to a frank who proceeded to address the house. Ithink that no man and candid avowal of the opinions of the members of the who feels as an Englishman—that no gentleman in this' Administration of the policy they wore pursuing in the house—should make use of any such e x p ression as that. East, and of the objects they were seeki n g to accom p lish.. He had observed that since the commencement of the war made by the hon. member for Linlithgow hire. (Loud almost every prediction to which the Government hail lent cheers,) First, the hon. member called the people their sanction had been falsified. Whether he looked to ' canaille ;" then he took exception to their free enjoy- their alliances, to their military operations, or to their avowed ment of the parks of this metropolis ; and then be called - objects in the prosecution of the war, in almost every case on the right hon. gentleman the Secretary of State to the events had been the very reverse of the predictions and make use of six-pounders against them. (Great cheering:) announcements of the Administration. Why, Sebastopol The people of this metropolis believed themselves un- was to fall last year; soon after Sir C. Napier arrived in the justly treated. Ido not think that the noble lord the Baltic the First Lord of the Admiralty stated, in reply to a member for Middlesex acted unwisely in withdrawing his question of whether Cronstadt had been taken, that he had noxious bill as he did, though lam not a friend to any not yet received official information of that fact. (Laugh ter.) Then with regard to their alliances, with what coun course that would be yielding to clamour. (Hear.) But tries were they now associated ? Yet, they had been told that was a differe nt thin g from the course which is re- that Austria was t o be t heir active ally, that Prussia was co mmended by the hon. member — that of us in g six- to act with them , that Sweden was eager to lend her forces pounders against the inhabitants of this metropolis. It for their assistance. Then, with regard to the avowed ob is all very well for the hon. gentleman t o sa y that he did jects of the war, after they had been told by the Duke of not mean what he said, but surely he has arrived at Newcastle, in a despatch, that no safe and honourable years of discretion. (A. laugh.) As the Speaker has peace could be concluded without the fall of Sebastopol, decided that the words cannot now be taken down, I did not a member of the o the of which t Government now inhe duke will not make the motio n which I had intended. was a member, and alsopower, STEAM-POSTAL CO MMUNICATION WITH go to Vienna for the very purpose of makin g p eace, with out a word about the fall of Sebastopo l, or makin g that ' AUSTRALIA. Sir J. PAKINGTON asked the Secretar y of State for condition a sine qua non? What, then, was the object of the war? Sometimes it was the fall of Sebastopol, the Colonies whether he had received copies of a circular sometimes it was merely the obtainment from the Go of the-Governors of the A ustralian colonies, containin g the vernmont of Russia of a stipulation, written on a piece description of a plan for the establishment of regular steam of paper, which every member of the house thou g ht postal communications wit h these colonies ? would not be worth a straw as a security, but could Lord J. RUSSELL replied that the Treasury had under their control and management the mails for Australia, and only be intended to humiliate and insult the enemy with managementwhom they were contending. Not one of t e extravagant that his hon. friend the Sec retar y for the Treasury would expectations that the Government had sanctioned had been state what arrangements were in operation or in contem realised. They had sanctioned the folly which had been plation. of mails by the talked about a war for liberty , fo r the restoration of Mr. WILSON said that the arran g ement Poland, and the independence of Hungary, but the House Cape of Good Hope had been abandoned, but with res p ect was still in doubt as to what was the object of the war, to communications every two months by India they were and the nature of the policy the Government were pursuing not abandoned, but only suspended in consequence of the Peninsular and Oriental Company not having ships to per- and he felt, seeing the blood they were lavishly expending form the service. A proposal had been made by the Tree- and the . treasure they were . wasting, that he was but die. charging one of his first duties as a member of Parliament surf to the Peninsular and Oriental Company for mailsadvantages yet month to the Australian colonies, but no answer had as when he incessantly asked them what were the . they proposed to confer on the people . of this country in yet been received. The subject would not be lost sight of, and he could assure the right hon. gentleman that the Go- consideration of the enormous sacrifices which they called upon the people to make. The Times newspaper said that vernment felt a lively interest in the establishment of a tlp© object of the war was so clear that a labouring man could satisfactory arrangement, and a desire for a monthly co define it. But, although he had been always an x ious to obtain ne unication with our Australian colonies. (Hear.) tom information on the subject, he had been unable to get at the 'COMPENSATION FOR PRICE OF COMMISSIONS, object of the war. If a labouring man were to ask him what Mr. RICH brought under the notice of the house the was the object of the war, and for what purpose he had heavy charge and serious consequences that may ensue from been called upon to make the sacrifices ho was now making grants to the widows of officers killed in action, as compen- —to deny his children education, to curtail the comforts sation for the price of the commissions which their husbands of his humble home—the only answer he could make would may have purchased. He complained that when, on the bo that the British Government were endeavouring to at occasion of his making a motion relative to the sale and pur- tack the Ottoman empire more completely to the equili chase of commissions in t he arm y , on Tuesday last, he had brium of Europe, and to put an end to the prep onderance b een counted out, the bell had not been run g , as was the of Russia in the Black Sea, and that it was worth while for rule. However, he promised that he would next year bring l a b our i ng men t o ma k e w h a t sacrifices they could to assist forward the question of the s e p ur c hases and sales, an d show in accomplishing those objects. Ho believed that the Go that the system was worn out, and injurious to the service, vernruent had never told the country what their real ob ject was in the prosecution of this war. They were drifted and that it could be abolish ed without adding to the public expense. He understood that the Government proposed into it, and they kept drifting on. If ever they had a di to grant a sum of money equivalent to the price of the vided Government in connection with the carrying on of commission; but be could not gather from the explanation this war, it was his conscientious belief that they had a given by the noble lord whether that equivalent should be divided Government now; and if success depended on given to officers only who had purchased their commissions, having a clear and united opinion in- the Government in or whether it was to be given to officers generally. The such a matter es that of carrying on a great war, he saw house was bound to consider the question as involving a sufficient division of opinion in the present Government new principle and involving a great expense. He did not to make success extremely problematical. To prove that see how the noble lord could confine these grants to officers there was such a division in the Government, he need only killed in action, or how he could exclude officers who died refer to the despatch addressed by Count Buol to the diffe of their wounds , or officers who had been seriously wounded rent German Powers after the twelfth conference at and came home, or those who died of exposure' w ho were Vienna—not th e con f erenc e which finally concluded the frozen, or struck by ,the sun. (Hear.) He did not see negotiations, but that at which the negotiations were how these officers could be, excepted from the benefit of broken off. Count Buol stated, without any opposing re this arrangement. Then it would be dangerous to draw mark from either of the plenipotentiaries present, that al such a line of demarcation between officers who purchased though the propositions made by Russia might not be the their commissions and those who did not. He begged the most desirable mode of settling the question in dispute, noble lord at the head of the Government to give some and might not satisfy the third basis of the negotiations, explanation on this question. still he thought the proposition contained the elements of Mr. HEADLANI said that this was a proposal which solution, and that, in his opinion, it was especially the originated from a motion of his, and though he did not duty of Austria to endeavour to find out a plan of ap think the Government proposal was as fair to officers as preaching Russia's proposal which should satisfy the third it should be, he was glad they had done something. He point, and thus enable peace to be re-established between had received more than o ne a pp lication from the friends the belligerents on the basis of the four points. Count Buol of deceased officers, and it was due to them that the deci- eta— sion of the Government should be at once made known. n If, since the outbreak of hostilities, there was any one Lord PALMERSTON said that the arrangements moment when more than at another the restoration of peace which his noble friend t i he Secretary of War contemplated might be considered probable, it was the moment when Lord were being put into shape, and there was found groat cliff- John Russell and M. Drouyn de Lhuys left our capital. culty in carrying them into operation equitably. He The conferences, it is true, had only led to the rejection of could assure hon. members that no unnecessary delay the propositions made by the belligerent Powers, but upon would be permitted in forming the general orders on this both sides it appeared to be admitted that these propositions subject. (Hear.) offered the elements of peace; and we were not only able to Lord W. GRAHAM asked the Under-Secretary of declare without opposition that we believed ourselves especi- War whether the regulation for the compensation to offi- ally called to occupy ourselves in seeking out the means of an core for the loss of their horses had been amended? He approximation, but we also put forward a drau g ht of an ulti found that some officers of the highest rank received 501. matum, which was to be sent to St. Petersburg, and which eath for the loss of their chargers, that a colonel received we considered not inadmissible by Russia, since an immediate 351., a major 271., and a lieutenant 231. He should have limitation of Russia's sovereign rights in the Black Sea was thought that a uniform sum for the loss of chargers would avoided, but which at the same time seemed so completely be the fairest plan. Then he found that General Penne- to satisfy the object of the third stipulation, and put an end father received 14 guineas for the loss of a hack, whilst to Russian preponderance in the Black Sea, that the before- Lieutenant Hopkins only received 1/. 10s. for the loss of named Ministers of France and England, in confidential in his. terviews, showed themselves decidedly inclined towards our In answer to Colonel Knox, proposal, and undertook to recommend the same to their Go- Lord PALMERSTON said it was intended to increase This plan of an ultima the soldier's pay while he was in the field by the rate of 6d. tum, therejection of which by Russia we declared ourselves a day, with facilities afforded to him, as in the navy, to ' vernmen ' ts with all their influence. P ready to make a casusbelii, consisted of two distinct proposi send the mosey to his friends. tions, of which the Russian Government was to take its THE WOUNDED BEFORE SEBASTOPOL. choice . " Mr. STAFFORD called the attention of the Govern ment h sa t m he e as had been laid before kinddetails of the propositions. to a letter from an army surgeon, which appeared in the He need were t muchgo t through o t u h e e s columns of a contemporary, detailing instances of great ne lect in the preparations made in the field hospitals for the the house. The circular proceeded thus greception of the wounded in the attack on the 18th. He " Lord John Russell, before leaving Vienna, was made asked whether the Government meant to take any steps in acquainted by verbal communication with these proposals. consequence of this letter ? The French Minister, M. Drouyn de l'Huys, who left Vienna m e , PEEL read a letter from .Dr. Hall, detailing the some days later, received a written copy of our plan, and un preparations that were made for th e care of the wounded dertook to submit it to the examination of his Sovereign and on the morning of the 18th, and how well they worked. also to bring it before the British Government. It is untie- Thin Way a 0911tradiOtiOn to the an egatione contained in the _ cessary to speak here 0 regret with which, very soot the armed force of Turkey was not one-tenth of that which Russia possesses. Added to this was an additional source of difficulty—namely, that some 10.000,000 of the subjects of Turkey were of the religious faith of the Emperor o' Russia, and had been taught assiduously to look to the Emperor of Russia for protection. It has always appear° l to me that the task upon which we entered was a most dif ficult one. I do not think it will take long to show in what respect it was difficult, and I think I can mention some difficulties which both in war and in peace must attend the attainment of the object which we have in view. Some persons of high military authority thought at the beginning of the war that it would be quite sufficient, and that it would be the most effective means of defence for Turkey, if lines were drawn from the Black Sea to the Sea of Marmon,. somewhat resembling the famous lines of Torres Vedras But the circumstances were totally different. The Duke of Wellington was enabled to defend the lines of Torres Vedras because the population were generally op posed to the invasion, and thelonger the invaders stayed in the country the weaker their army became, and the less able to obtain supplies. But if Russia had crossed the Balkan and had arrived within 20 miles of Constantinople, she would have had the means of raising an insurrection throughout the Christian population of the Turkish pro vinces, and she would have been strengthened every day and every week in her attempt to destroy the independence of Turkey. (Hear.) And new let us see what were the difficulties that would have occurred in a time of peace. We have had some discussions on former occasions with respect to the Principalities. Those Principalities are in habited by Christians, and it has been said, naturally enough, "Make a Christian State there, and thereby esta blish a barrier against Russia." But the Russian interest is strong in these provinces, and there are so many persons who are bound to Russia by the strongest ties that to make an independent Stato there would only have been to strengthen Russia, and to enable her to pursue her projects with greater security. (Hear, hear.) If, on the other hand, you give to Turkey all she used to have, and admitted the Turkish army into the principalities, you might secure their independence. Con sidering these things and many other questions of a similar nature, it has always appeared to me that the end of this war must be not merely a treaty between the belligerents on one side—namely. France, Great Britain, and Turkey— and Russia on the other, but that there must be a general treaty in which the Powers of Europe could take part, and in which each should give a fair security for the mainte nance of the integrity and independence of Turkey. Having taken that view, it is obvious that I must consider the co operation of Austria as being of the highest value. That the co-operation of Austria would be of great value during war no one will deny. If at the present moment the Austrian array were advancing into Bessarabia, 40,000 or 50,000 Russian troops would be unable to march into the Crimea; if it were operating on the side of Galicia, that again would prevent the Russian force from being sent from Poland to the seat of war. And, Sir; in the ?arrangements to be made with regard to peace, I believe that the alliance and co operation of Austria would be at the least as effective and at the least as necessary. The pathway by which Russia could send her land armies to the attack of Turkey is across the Danube, by the side of the Austrian provinces, and through the Balkan. That is the way in which, on more than one occasion, she has attempted to invade Tur key, and it is the road by which, on the last occasion, hav ing crossed the Balkan, the Russian army reached Adrian ople. But if Austria undertook, in alliance with France and Great Britain, to prevent any such aggression, and to oppose it by the force of arms, and if France and Great Britain on their side had sufficient means of opposing a naval aggression, we should then, to use the language of Mr. Fox, which was quoted the other night by the hon. gentleman the member for West Riding, " make it the interest of Russia to maintain peace." I quite agree with the opinion expressed in the extract read by the hon. gen tleman from Mr. Fox, that the best security against ag gression is the interest of a Power to maintain peace. [Mr. Cobden.—" The only security."] The honourable gentleman says, " the only security," but that is a phrase liable to some qualification. I have al ways considered that, whatever arrangements may be made for the security of Turkey in order to have a durable peace, we ought to have Austria and Prussia and the States of Germany parties to a gene ral alliance, by which Turkey would be secured from aggres sion. (Hear.) I now come to the mission with which I was charged to Vienna. It appeared to me—and I remem ber that I expressed that opinion very strongly to Lord Cowley, her Majesty's ambassador at Paris—that I should be able to ascertain what it was that Austria and Prussia were ready to agree to. At the same time I thought that, whatever might be the effect of the negotiations, it would not be possible to come to any decision at Vienna, but that it must be left to the Governments of France and Great Britain to decide ultimately whether there were any terms which they could assent to as terms on which to conclude a safe and honourable peace. Upon my arrival at Vienna there were, of course, two kinds of negotiations to be entered into. There was the negotiation which was to be conducted in conferences, and in conferences only, between the three belligerent Powers and Austria, who had signed the treaty of the 2d of December, and Russia. That was one part of the business upon hich we were to enter. But the other, and perhaps the more important part, was to ascertain by repeated interviews and discus sions the views of the Austrian Government, and endea vour either to procure her assistance in concluding peace, or to discover the terms upon which she would make an ultimatum to Russia. I find that a very few days after my arrival at Vienna—so early as the 7th of March—l discussed with Count Buol as well as with the French Minister then resident there, Baron Bourqueney, and the English envoy, the various stipulations which came under the denomination of the four points. Upon the mention of the third point the French and English plenipoten tiaries declared that it appeared to us that the best solution of that point was to obtain from Russia a limitation of her forces in the Black Sea. We stated that if that limitation were agreed to, the general rule of the treaty of 1841—namely, the closing of the Straits—might be maintained. We stated that it would then be possible to withdraw the armies and fleets from the Black Sea, because there would no longer exist the preponderance of Russia—there would no longer exist a standing menace to Turkey. Count Buol so far agreed that he said, "Undoubtedly that is the best solution of the third point. Undoubtedly the best security you can have is the limitation of the Russian fleet. But," he added, " there is another solution, and that would be, instead of weakening Russia, to strengthen Turkey. It is the opinion of the Austrian Government that the third point may be carried into effect either in ono mode or the other. The proposal you make is undoubtedly the best; we should be very glad to see it assented to by Russia ; in the conference we shall give it every support, but we will not say that we do not reserve to ourselves the power of pro posing the other mode—namely, instead of a limitation of Russian force, to have a counterpoise on the part of the allies." So far, sir—and, indeed, I would say not only so far, but throughout- I have no complaint to make, as the right hon. gentleman supposes the Government to make, of treachery against Austria. (Hear.) Her conduct I find fault with—perhaps very great fault in some respects—but I think there has been no treachery and no bad faith in the matter. I think she was entitled to say, as a Power which had not gone to war, as a Power which was at peace with Russia, We will ends our to seek for the solution of those difficulties by the attainment of all the four points, which we consider necessary for peace, but we do not bind ourselves to one particular mode of obtaining one of those points. We think ourselves at liberty to propose another I mode, and if that other shall be found sufficient, we will not rely solely upon the one which you propound." I could net but say that I thought the Austrian Government wore wrong in their supposition that the second mode of solu tion was as good as the first. I stated objections, and I stated them over and over again at repeated interviews with Count Baol—objections which are obvious enough— to the propositions he made. One objection is, that Great Britain and France might not al ways be dis posed to go to the considerable expense which would be necessary in order to maintain a fleet in the Black Sea which could be at all reckoned as a counterpoise to the Russian fleet. Another objection is, that it would obviously be placing Turkey, as it were, under the imme diate protection of those two Powers, aid would thereby in some respects weaken her position. But a third objec tion—which I still think a very strong ono- is, that three or four fleets—the fleets of Turkey, assisted by those of France, England, and Austria on the one side, and the fleet of Russia on the other—would have all the appearance of a competition for preponderance, and would thereby weaken the general feeling in the solidity and duration of peace. Well, discussions went on, as the house has seen by the papers which have been laid before Parliament. The Aus trian Government, through Count Buol and Baron Pro kesch, its representatives at the conference, supported with great force of argument the propositions which were made for limitation, or else for making the Black Sea a commercial sea. I should say, however, with re spect to this last proposition, that it was not cordially adopted by the Austrian Government, but they did cor dially adopt the proposal and support the arguments iu favour of limitation, which I was orciered by my instruc tions to put forward. The right hon. gentleman, having read several extracts from Count Buol's circular, strangely enough said ho would not read the particular propositions which Austria made, but he left it to the house to believe or to infer that those propositions were the same which were made by Russia. Now, I think a very few minutes would suffice to show that, whether they were satisfactory or unsatisfactory, whether they were adequate or inade quate, they were totally different from those of Russia. The proposal of Russia at the time when I was at Vienna was, that the fleets of all the Powers, their armed vessels, should have liberty to go through the Straits. The prop° , sition they made after I left Vienna was that the closing of the Straits should be maintained as a principle, and that Turkey should have the power of calling on her allies when she pleased to send her fleets there. Now, the Austrian proposition does not at all resemble these two, upon which I was not arguing, for they have been discussed in the house upon former occasions, and the house, by a very great majority, were of opinion that they were inade quate. The Austrian proposal was founded upon that which Count Buol had made to us when we first had an interview with him. He proposed, in the first place, that the rule of 1841 should be maintained, but that it should be maintained with exceptions in favour of the allies, and with no exceptions in favour of Russia. Thus, according to that principle—which I certainly very much doubt whether Russia was at that time prepared to adopt—there would have been the power on certain occasions of sending armed vessels—ships of the lino - belonging to France, Great Britain, and Austria into the Black Sea, while there would have been no power on the part of Russia of sending her vessels either from the Black Sea into the Mediterranean or of sending vessels fromthe Baltic into the Mediterranean and from the Mediterranean into the Black Sea. The passage, in short, would have been entirely closed to Russia ; it would not be closed topowers which had not establishments in the Black Sea. The particular mode in which the proposal was to be carried into effect was this. (I do not conceive it is a proposition on the part of Austria to be considered by her allies, and of course the details were not finally settled.) What she proposed was that, supposing—which seems to have been ascertained by Admiral Lyons—that Russia had six sail of the line in the Black Sea, while she had that number and no more, England, France, and Austria should each maintain two frigates in the Black Sea, and have power to renew them from time to time. If Russia should increase her force—for instance, if she should augment her fleet from six to eight sail of the line--then half the num ber maintained by Russia might be maintained by the three allied Powers, so that, while Turkey would have eight sail of the line as an equivalent to the eight of Rus sia, England would have four and France four at the same time. elt was proposed in the same way that if Russia should continue to augment her force—for instance, if she had 12 sail of the line—each of the maritime Powers should have six, while Austria would, of course, have her own naval force, and thus we should maintain a counterpoise in regard to Russia. But, in addition to this, Count Buol was ready, as I was told verbally on the day before I left Vienna, to agree to the treaty which he mentions in this circular between Austria, Great Britain, and France, by which they should agree to give a guaran tee for the independence and integrity of Turkey. That was a point on which I had laboured during the time I was at Vienna. When I first saw Count Buol, I told him my general opinion, with regard to the limitation of the after, we received intelligence, not of the hoped for accept ance of England ani France, but, instead, the opposition of the English Ministers to the -views of their colleague, and of the resolution or the Emperor Napoleon to relinquish the ser vices of the Minister who had just won the admiration and the confidence of the Austrian Court." If this dorrument contained a correct account of what occurred, it would seem that at the very moment when the Government were asking Parliament to agree to carry on the war with vigour, the noble lord the member for the city of London believed that the war was not a matter of necessity, but that the means of soletioa were in his hands, and that it was only for him to submit the proposal which had been made to his Government, and thereby enable the belligerents to settle the question in an honour able and satisfactory manner. Was not this a question, then, sufficiently grave to claim the attention of Parlia tneut ? Were they prepared to say that there was any man who wished war to be carried on one instant longer than necessity required, however anxious he might have been in the first instance to take up arms ? It appeared to him that the noble lord the member for the city of Lon don went to Vienna with the bona fide intention of malc-; ing an honourable peace. He (Mr. Gibson) approved en tirely of the declaration made by that noble lord ; it was a declaration of a statesman, and one which it was worthy of an English Minister to make, when he said that the only terms of peace which were desirable were those that were consistent at once with the honour of Russia and sufficient for the security of Europo. In that spirit it appeared to him the noble lord was prepared to act ; but his instructions, as he said, were exhausted. His col leagues appeared to entertain different views. They seemed to desire to avoid the chance of making peace at Vienna, and of preventing the noble lord from accomplishing what he (Mr. Gibson) believed the noble lord earnestly desired to accomplish—the putting an end to these unfortunate hostilities. It was known that M. Drouyn de Lhuys thought it impossible for him any longer to hold the office he had hitherto held in the French Government after the opinions ho had expressed at Vienna, and which opinions were pre cisely similar to those which had also been expressed by the noble lord the member for the city of London. Therefore was it that he (Mr. Gibson) asked how could that noble lord reconcile the retention of office in the present Government if ho still retained the opinions he expressed at Vienna ? If, indeed, the noble lord had changed those opinions, and if he no longer thought that the terms proposed by Austria ought to be submitted to the consideration of the British Government, lot him frankly avow that change of opinion; and if the noble lord did so he (Mr. Gibson) would not have one word more to say on the subject: But he could not sit silent while he saw the noble lord attached to a Govern ment which was pledged to the carrying on of a war for the purpose of crippling Ruesia, being thoroughly con scious that that noble lord must believe that the war had been carried on beyond the necessity of the ease, and there fore at a wanton sacrifice of the blood and treasure of this country. They had been led to believe that some difficul ties had arisen in connection with this het proposal at Vienna with our ally. Was it so? Was it, or not, the fact that the Emperor of the French, wishing to-act in strict accordance with this country, announced to hie ministerthat if the British Government would agree to the proposition of Austria being submitted to Russia as an ultimatum, he was willing to acquiesce ? That had been asserted in the presence of the British Minister, and it had not been contradicted. It was stated by the honourable member for the West Riding, and also by the right hon. baronet the member for Carlisle. The right hon. gentleman said, " The Emperor of the French was not unwilling to accept it; he proposed to the English Government that it should be accepted; and that its rejection took place in consequence of the in fluence of the English Government being exerted against it, and that consequently M. Drouyn de Lhnys, who thought it acceptable, had retired from the Council of the Empe ror." If these assertions were incorrect, it was high time that the Government should put tie country straight, for rumours of this kind must be pernicious if not founded on fact. With regard to the zeal of Austria in her alliance with this country, he confessed that he was no admirer of Austrian institutions ; but he believed that the feeling en tertained with respect to Austria having been treacherous, and of having failed to fulfil her engagements with this country, had chiefly arisen from our having entertained ex tras agent expectations of what Austria was prepared to undertake—expectations which the Government of England ought to have known were not sufficiently well founded. He had referred to all the documents and to all the treaties to which Austria had been in any way a party, and he did not find in any of them a single paragraph to sustain such expectations. There was not a word throughout the proto cols or the treaties which pledged Austria to do anything which she bad failed to do. He attributed, therefore, this expression of disappointment to that habit which England seemed to have of supposing that other countries were equally ready to draw the sword in questions in which they were not concerned as she herself was, and that Austria and Prussia, and those various countries with which they were allied, must of necessity see this war in the same point of view as it was seen by Great 'Britain. The Austrian Government, by the treaty of December, 1851, pledged it self to endeavour to make peace by reasonable negotiations. He contended that Austria had fulfilled that engagement. What were the terms of the treaty between Austria, Eng land, and France ? They were these " Her Majesty the Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, his Majesty the Emperor of Austria, and his Majesty the Emperor of the French, being animated with the desire of terminating the present war at the earliest possible moment, by the re-establishment of a general peace ou solid bases, affording to the whole of Europe every gua rantee against the return of the complications which have so unhappily disturbed its repose. . • . - The high con tracting parties refer to the declarations contained in the protocols of the 9th of April and tie 23d of May of the present year, and in the notes exchanged on the Sth of August last." The allusion to these papers was merely a reference to the four points as bases of negotiation; and it appeared to him that the only engagement Austria entered into was to endeavour to assist England and France in negotiating a peace and submitting proposals which, in its opinion, would be considered reasonable by the Emperor of Russia, with the view of settling the dispute ; and, in ease of the failure of these negotiations, all that Austria bound herself to do was to "deliberate without delay upon effectual means for obtaining the - object of their alliance." He thought the most effectual means of obtaining the object of that alliance was to submit to Russia the propositions which Austria had drawn up, and which were approved by the plenipotentiaries sent to Vienna by the various Powers. What possible fault, then, could be found with Austria? She submitted a plan which was apoved by the plenipotentiaries; but the plenipotentiaries were thrown over by their respective Governments, who turned round upon Austria because she did not draw the sword, and complained that she had broken her engagement. He was afraid that, before this war terminated, there would be charges of treachery in other quarters. He did not be lieve thy were going to uphold the integrity and inde pendence of the Ottoman empire', and he cautioned the Prime Minister that a day of retribution would come. If the expedition to the Crimea should end in signal disaster, the Government might endeavour—as Governments had done on former occasions—to throw the blame upon their generals and admirals, but in the end the responsibility would be fixed upon the executive Government, who were alone responsible for that expedition. They sent out our troops, contrary to the advice of their bast generals and ad mirals ; they had sacrificed the flower of the British army —(hear)—they had sacrificed millions of the public trea sure ; they had concealed from Parliament material facts which transpired at the conferences of Vienna, and which it was necessary Parliament should know for the guidance of their opinion ; and he must say the course they were pursuing seemed to him calculated to inspire want of con fidence in the Administration, and led him to tho conclu sion that they were destined to bring great disasters upon the country, and his belief was that the country would visit those disasters upon their heads. Lord J. RUSSELL—I am very glad the right hon , gen tleman has now made his imputations upon the conduct of the Government at a time when those imputations can be answered. I certainly was surprised when, the other d a y, upon an occasion which I should have thought would have induced the right hon. gentleman to refrain from bringing before the house any question that coald occasion contro versy, he introduced a topic of this ,nature and made serious charges against the Government. Wore it not for the remark of Mr. Grattan, that persons are very often tempted to make observations by the impropriety of the occasion —(a laugh)—l should hardly have thought the right hon. gentleman would have taken such an opportu nity of making his statement. As, however, the right hon. gentleman has brotight forward the subject now upon go ing into committee of supply, I cannot but own that he is fully entitled to explanation, and that the correspondence which has taken place with the Austrian Government on this great question fitly deserves to obtain the atten tion of the house. Before I enter into that question, I must refer to the right hon. gentleman's affirmation that we have been disappointed in all our predictions, and that the objects of the war are such as ho has been pleased to describe. Now, so far from being dis appointed by the events of the war, I will say that; although the, siege of Sebastopol has not hitherto been at tended with the success we anticipated, yet that the re ' pulse of Russia at the siege of Silistria, the evacuation of the Danubian provinces, and the consent of Russia to aban don entirely and for ever all those special treaties which gave her the pretence for interfering with Turkey, were successes far beyond those which we had hoped to accom plish in so short a time. But then the right hon. gentle man says we believed that Cronstadt would fall immedi ately, and he founds this assertion upon the declaration of the First Lord of the Admiralty . that he had no o ffi c i a l in telligence of the fact. How the right hon. gentleman could have formed upon such a statement the conclusion that we expected to hear of the immediate fall of Cronstadt, is cer tainly beyond my comprehension. The right hon. gentle man went on to say that we proposed the restoration of Poland and the independence of Hungary as two of the objects of the war. We have never promised or held out hopes of the restoration of Poland, for we have always considered, in conformity with the declaration of the First Lord of the Treasury, that, if that restoration be accomplished at all, it will be accomplished by Austria. Being on terms of intimacy with many Poles, when they have spoken to use on this subject I have always told thom, "If Austria will take your part, and should consider the restoration of Poland attainabl e , you may enter tain some hopes of accomp lisin g such a result, but do not France will a l one u imagine that England an d then ndertake to accomplish it." I stated recently to a Polish nobleman, of whose friendship any one may be proud, that I had no con ception that England and France would attempt the re storation of Poland, and that, if they did not attempt it, I thought it would be the greatest crime to encourage expec tations which must be d isa pp o inted. Then with regard to the independence of Hungary, I mus t say th a t it would eee s mptuos haveto obtain b b t e m e i nn the most independence and seeking the alliance of Austria, we had sought of Hungary. when negotiating with Hungary. It has been stated that one of the objects of th e war was t o effect the independence of HungarY , b ut no such object has ever been put forward by her Maje st y's Government. (Hear, hear.) u The right honourable gentleman says he should find great difficuly in explaining to a labouring man the objects of the war, but it fortunately happens —for I have no doubt the hon. gentleman is right in his statement—that the la bouring men, the artisans, the country have throughout had a very clear conception of what the objects of the war are. (Hear.) They know that the war was entered into to prevent the further aggrandisement of Russia, to pro tect the territory and to maintain the independence of Turkey. The masses of the people have never deceived themselves with regard to the object of the war—(hear) — and, as to the accomplishment of that object, I must con fess that, before we entered into war, and up to the pre sent time, I have always thought it an object of very great difficulty, and only to be attained by great efforts. I have thought so, because, as every one may conceive, Russia is enormously powerful, her population is ani mated and strengthened by repeated successes, and for centuries past she has, by treaties, been continually adding something to h er power. urkey, on the con trary, is a Power which has of late years been crippled and wealoned--.-so much 80 itieed, that when the war began fleet according to my instructions; but I said I thought that, before the whole of these transactions were closed, it would be very desirable to have security for the future by an alliance between the three Powers. Count Bnol was of opinion that it would be better to have an article in the general treaty making Russia a party to that guarantee. I was of a different opinion, but Count Buol maintained his opinion, as I maintained mine. The day before I left Vienna I was informed that Count Buol had come to the opinion that he has suggested hero in his circu lar, that it was desirable that the three Powers should enter into a united treaty of defence of Turkey, secur ing her independence and integrity. (Hear, hear.) It was, of course, understood that Prussia might be a party to that treaty, and that thereby greater security would be obtained for the observance of that treaty. It appeared to me that these two provisions did contain a security for Turkey for the future. It appeared to me, if we had made this arrangement with respect to the admission of ships of war in the Black Sea, that Russia, so far from increasing her fleet to its size before the commencement of the war, would abstain from maintaining more than six ships of the line, replacing them, if she thought proper, by larger and stronger vessels, but not attempting to have a large fleet in the Black Sea; for nothing could so tend to diminish the opinion of the power of Russia in the East as the observa tion that other fleets, especially those of France and Great Britain, were present in the Black Sea as a check and a counterpoise to her fleet. On the other hand, the security on the land side against the advances of Russia by armies similar to those which advanced in 1828 and 1829 would have been obtained by the general treaty, and by the consciousness that Russia would have that, no sooner did she attempt to do that which she has done within the last two years and occupy the provinces of Turkey, than such astep would ba equivalent to a declaration of war against all the great powers of Europe. In this manner I certainly thought that the Austrian plan of counterpoise was inferior to the plan of limitation that we proposed, yet it might boa mode of concluding the war with honour to the Allied Powers, and that it would give—l will not say a certainty—but a very fair prospect of the duration of peace. (" Hear, hear," from Mr.. Gibson.) The right hon. gentleman asks me whether I have changed that opin ion. Sir, I have not changed that opinion. I think that those terms were calculated either, on the one side, to secure Austria to us in the war, or, on the other, to ob tain a peace which, although it might be unpopular, would have been a peace that would have afforded secu rity for the future. In making these propositions, the Austrian Government declared that they were ready to make them an ultimatum—that is to say, they were ready to send this alternative to St. Petersburg—either that Russ sia should consent to that plan of countrpoise that I have described, or that she should consent to limit her naval forces in the Black Sea to the number existing at the time that these propositions were accepted. It was supposed that Russia had no more than six sail of the line left, and, that she would consent to a condition made with Turkey, but inserted in a treaty made with all the Powers that she would not increase her naval force beyond that number. I have already stated that the Russian Min ister would not consent to the limitation, and that this plan was at once refused. With respect to the other the assent of Russia was more doubtful, but it was thought that Russia might have agreed to that proposition. If Russia refused both propositions the Austrian Minister was to have orders to leave St. Petersburg in eight hours, the military convention with France was to be signed, and the Austrian army was to be concentrated and placed in such a position that it could commence the war at any moment. The Austrian Government did not promise that an immediate declaration of war should be made, but it declared that it would regard the rejection of its proposition as a casus Belli. The Austrian Minister said that it would bring on the war, and I have no doubt that unless Russia had yielded at the last moment it would have led to a war between Austria and Russia. Well, sir, I have stated that there may be something in my own re collection of what took place which differs from that of Count Buol, but I have no doubt that the statement of Count Buol is in the main an accurate account of what I did at Vienna. I said that I had no instructions that would enable me to agree to such terms, and that the instructions I had would lead me to suppose that such terms would not be accepted ; but I said that my own opinion was that they ought to be and might be accepted ; and I said to Count Buol that I could assure him, and that he could convey that assurance to the Emperor of Austria, that I would lay the case before the Cabinet of this country, and that I would use my best endeavours to put these propositions in such a light that they might hope for their adoption. (Hear.) That promise I certainly performed. I stated to my Go vernment every detail of the propositions of which I was the bearer. I said that I had not the written propositions, but that, if they should be considered fit to form a basis for agreement, I had no doubt the Austrian Minister at this Court would furnish all the details of the articles to be proposed. I must say that the proposition was delibe rately considered by the Cabinet. Everything that I stated had, I must say, due weight, and was fairly placed in op position to the disadvantages of such a peace. The Go vernment came to the conclusion that the peace proposed would not be a safe peace, and that they could not recom mend its adoption. (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman says that he has heard from my right hon. friend the mem ber for Carlisle (Sir J. Graham) that the French Govern ment were disposed to accept these terms, but that they had been induced by the rejection of them by this Govern ment to refuse to accept them. M. Drouyn de I'Hnys ren dered a report to the Emperor of the French, stating the advantage of the terms to be such as I have described; but the Emperor would not accept his advice, and, before he know the decision of the English Government, he deter mined to change his Minister and to reject the proposal of Austria, as not affording a sufficient foundation fur peace. Ere therefore refused to adopt the proposal. I am not going to enter into the case of Austria, and how far it was a good case or not. I have stated the case as fairly as I can, and the house can judge for itself. The Austrian Government then declared that they wore ready to carry into effect the four points, but that they did not think the third point admitted of only one solution, and that the two Govera meuts of France and Great Britain had sufficient security on this point—that they wore ready to make a proposal to Russia, but that since that proposal had been rejected by the Allied Governments they no longer considered them selves bound to propose it, and that they were no longer bound by the treaty of the 2il of December to go to war with Russia. I believe in strictness those terms do admit the construction that they are bound to go to war with Russia. But the house will remember, when that treaty was first mentioned, I rather opposed the general view that Austria was bound at once to go to war with Russia upon that treaty, and I said she was bound only to take steps to carry into effect the four points. I think the two Governments May call upon Austria to perform her engage ments ; but I think that, even if it is not a good case, and even if it is not a sufficient case, for Austria, at least there is much to be said in favour of the propositions which the Austrian Ministers declared they were ready to make as an ultimatum. (Hear.) Now, sir, the right hon. gentleman asked a question, undoubtedly personal to myself, but which he is fairly entitled to ask, and which I consider I am bound to answer. The right honourable gentleman now asks how, having had those opinions, if I had not changed them—if I had not taken a totally altered view— how could I remain in office in the present Administra tion ? (Hear.) I think in the first place that if I had left office upon the decision of her Majesty's Government which I have mentioned, I should not have been acting consistently with that which I have repeatedly declared to be the main guide of my conduct. In the last resort, when it came to that great question of whether the proposal be fore us should be received or not, it was for the two Go vernments, and not for a plenipotentiary, to decide. And if not for a plenipotentiary, neither was it for me to decide, as having been employed in those negotiations, and as hav ing been a member of the Cabinet. But I must say that, if I had thought that, having held that opinion, and being overruled upon a question of such great importance, it was my duty to tender my resignation to her Majesty, I con sider the circumstances of the time would have forbidden my doing so. I must now refer to that which has taken place since the commencement of this session, and which I think must impress every man who takes part in public affairs with very grave reflections. There have been several changes since the commencement of this session. I myself resigned my office at the commencement of this session, upon the ground that I could not resist the appointment of a committee of inquiry. A vote of this house induced Lord Aberdeen and his colleagues generally to resign their offices a few days afterwards. Lord Derby was called to attend upon her Majesty, and he thought (I believe with very sound judgment) that, unless he obtained the assist ance of some of Lord Aberdeen's colleagues— especially my noble friend (Lord Palmerston) and the right hon. gentle man the member for the University of Oxford (Mr. Glad , stone)—he could not obey her Majesty's commands and form a Government which promised stability. I found myself 'unable to form a Government when it was proposed to me. My noble friend (Lord Palmerston) formed a Govern ment, and he obtained the assistance of some of those col leagues of Lord Aberdeen to whom I have referred. But in a few days they resigned office upon the ground, the very op posite of that whicl had taken, that the committee of in quiry, proposed by the hon. and learned member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck) was about to be granted. It cannot be denied, sir, I think, that these circumstances have given an appearance of instability to our councils— an appearance of instability which ought above all things to be avoided ; but, more than that, it was impossible for me not to perceive, though at a distance, thetendency that there was to cry down all authority, to distrust all persons in whom the Administration might be placed. If there was one man more than another whom the country thought ought to be intrusted wilh the supreme place in the coun cils of the Sovereign it was my noble friend who is now First Lord of the Treasury, and yet no sooner had that ap pointment taken place, and, as far as I can see, with no other reason than that held a place of authority in her Majesty's Councils, he became subject to the most violent attacks and a very general endeavour was made to run down his Administration and to deprive him of power. (Hear, hear.) This was net the effect of the extreme vio lence of parties. Far from it. It would be wrong if I ac cused the great body of the Opposition of such conduct, but it did show the tendency of the public mind—a tendency much to be feared—to run down all authority, to distrust all persons who might be the depositories of power, and to give way to a restless desire for something different without exactly knowing what.. Now, Sir, I did conceive that in that state of the public mind, whatever might be my sentiments as to a great question—and a very great question it was—it was my duty to give every support to my noble friend, and I am sure that if I had then left office, though I might have promised him every support, it would have increased that instability to which I have made allusion—it would have been considered as a symptom and precursor of other changes. I believe that, whether it regards our popition abroad, or whether it regards our position at home, it is the duty of the members of the Cabinet of my noble friend to consider, as well as they are able, the position of affairs; to make the best decisions which they can; for the minority to yield to the majority, if there is a minority or a majority; for an individual to defer iii9p;::barruulec sen timents to those of the Cabinet in general ; and, to believe e f beneve it to this house to decide whether or not ths be trusted with the conduct of op p fos u mi b te l illo i sr c ire a as if fto si er rs h ab timeibm rarjete that a ta s yt, that my noble friend and those who act wi a t dministrative conducthom her Ma' ' we qualified to make those changes in our affairs, to make those reforms which the business may require as any set may call to her councils. I believeite 11 '. M a eiYnn into f to lli f th e :L i s: persuasion will be fixed in the G l 3 o ge Were to would be a very great m isfo t r o t t u si ne oh il an take place, unless it were a the raen who del Will given to them power, they are opposed to her Majest/c'r think they will bo tho bet s od every Su ought to every hey a , involvin h Sup n h pp Rion gf such great con nfider!tc:etere in the execution of their duty. I not say that these internal fat e o nn E d England in a i i n nt t e h n e . her inter con se qu ees,affairs—importantbearn go a r s , world, bearing IR ave not an te of her i ic gear.)tut i n have cost us many painful re flections.,ve made the best decision which, lights, 1 ha ve bet with my e sted. able to make. That decision ti may be cont. t taaY be said by many that I be- Irneaedryeattao agree to these terms—not officially, a twas recommendhaving of my country when I told Count them to the Government. It may be Bbt said r u u a t y o l t e to d h l so declared my concurrence, I ought to have persisted to the end, and to have resigned office im. mediately those terms :, Were not agreed to. Upon eithe of those grounds I am liable to be cast, and I have no reason to complain of the censure. All I can say is, I have made a fair statement to the house of my conduct and my motives, and I leave the house to pass judgment upon them. Mr. COBDEN said, I have heard many speeches in this house, but never yet heard one that struck me with so much astonishment and grief as that which has just been delivered by the noble lord. My right hon. friend has called upon the noble lord to explain the inconsistency between his conduct at Vienna and in this house. My right hon. friend pointed out that it has come to his know ledge, by the publication of official documents, that the noble lord when at Vienna did confidently promise the I Austrian Minister that, when he returned to England, he would do his best to induce the Government to assent to the propositions for the establishment of peace which had emanated from the Austrian Government, and that the noble lord had also previously informed Count Buol that be approved of those terms. The noble lord does not deny that statement. But why woo not the noble lord the first to come and inform the house that the terms submitted by he not m a k e suc h a approval, and that he the A a p u p s t r r o i v a endGovernmentt had y i i a d statement from those benches from which he had descend ed previous to going to Vienna? (Hear, hear.) What is the reason why the noble lord has surrendered his judg raanttani n d so the Cabinet completely a abnegated 1, 1 e gate The noble d his iawnopinions to his colleagues lord assigns as a reason that there have been so many changes in the Govern. ment—that he had so lately abandoned his seat in a Cabinet to return again —and that there had been other secessions, and that there was a great tendency on the part of the public to call in question the character of all public men, and that he did not thick he was justified in maintaining his own opinion upon this gravest of all questions, at the risk of another change in the Cabinet. But does not the noble lord see that the reasons why the public have lost faith in public men is just because public men have been suspected of doing that which the noble lord has himself avowed that he has done. Why should the house or the peo ple have any faith in public men, except it be because they believe that they have certain opinions, and are swayed by certain principles, and are accustomed to act up to their convictions ? The noble lord, by the conduct which he has pursued, has taken the very course which strikes at the very foundation of all confidence in public men, and to render it impossible that the representative system can be carried on with success. (Hear, hear, hear.) The noble lord has also struck at the confidence of the public in public men by the mode in which these facts have transpired. The noble lord comes home from Vienna, and instead of telling us frankly what his own opinions were in reference to this question, he made a speech denouncing . Russia, appealing to all the old clap-traps as to the en croachments and despotism of Russia, whileeall the time be knew well that he came back from Vienna bringing pro posals of peace, which he told Count Buol he considered to be practicable and fair, and which he promised to advocate in the Government of his colleagues. Having done all this, the noble lord complains that the great want of the day is confidence in public men. (Hear, and laughter.) With re spect to the want of confidence to which the noble lord re fers as existing in the country with reference to the noble lord at the head of the Government, there is no man in the country who has done-more to create doubt in that noble lord than the noble lord the member for the City of Lon don has done. (Laughter.) Did the noble lord honestly and in good faith promise to Count Buol that he would come bac to London and advocate those views, and if so, has he not forfeited his high position as a public man by not having resigned his position in the Cabinet when ho found he could not carry his views ? The noble lord was bound to:do that which M. Drouyn de Lhnys did when hs re signed his proud position before all Europe, when he found that he could not induce his Sovereign to agree to the views which he had pledged himself to at Vienna. (Hear.) If the noble lord had resigned his office, and the country had seen but one more instance of a lean who was capable for the sake of earnest conviction to abandon the honour and emoluments of office, far more good would have been done than by the noble lord continuing to remain in office. (Hear.) I consider that the noble lord has touched upon a point of great danger, and that is the way in which the publicmen have forfeited their title to the confidence of the people of this country. I have frequently looked before me into the faun), and contemplated several possible contin gencies which might happen in the autmaen, and dangers to which we might be exposed, and have tliought of the great danger which existed from having no one man in the country around whom the people could rally in such a case of great social difficulty and danger. We have brought ourselves to a position similar to that which was arrived at in France after successive changes, and after having " used up" every leading political character in the land. I look upon the conduct of the noble lord, dangerous as I think it is to himself as a public man, with far more re gret for the very great danger which I think his conduct brings upon the representative Government and the in terests of this country. (Hear.) I think, too, that the continuance of this war upon the system upon which it is now being carried on, bodes great difficulty and danger to the country. It is not merely that the present Govern ment, has plunged the country into a renewed war, but they appear to me to be utterly incompetent to understand the extent of the difficulty and danger into which they have plunged the country. (Hear.) Now that they have re newed the war, have they taken the necessary steps to bring the war to a conclusion ? What is the object for which the war is to be renewed ? It was not now to pre vent Russia from taking Silistria, or from holding posses sion of the Principalities. Russia had retired from the one and withdrawn from the other as soon as she found that Austria, Pro and Germany were determined to make it a casus belli if she advanced upon Constantinople. Every thing which had yet been done by Russia had been done either from fear of, or by a desire to conciliate Austria„ and Germany. The Government of this country had now renewed the war, and what were they going to do ? I know it has been raid you are going to humble Russia, but to do this how are you going to carry on the war ? You are about to humble Russia with its sixty millions of subjects—its largo agricultural population—and its im mense supply of raw material for troops, by invading her trrritory with thirty thousand men'? He knew that there was scarcely any limit to the power of England and France when these countries put forth all their strength, but how were they going to accomplish the object which they professed to have in view—that of the humbling of Russia? I know it may be said that you rely upon the French Government. But is there not danger by even going into alliance in operations upon land with a nation that has sent three or four times as many troops as we have sent out? But is France in a position to humble Russia? Let us tell the whole truth with respect to Franco. There is no doubt that this war with Russia is not popu lar in France, it never has been, and it is now odious; and if I wanted a proof of it I could find in the address which the Emperor of the French lately made to his Chamber. There was in that address ono ominous paragraph. He says, "My Government will propose to you to vote the annual recruitment bill. There will be no extraordinary levy, and the bill will take the usual course necessary for the regulation of the administration of the recruitment bill." Why was the Emperor of the French so careful to tell the people that he was not goinr , to make an " extra ordinary levy?' Because ho knew that the only part of France where his main strength lay, among the peasantry of the provinces, if he attempted an extraordinary levy, he would depopularise himself with the people, among whom he relied for his troops. Did Napoleon I. say ho wanted no extraordinary levies, when he went to invade Russia with 500,000 men, and a reserve of 300,000 more ? If you are to invade Russia, and fight her on her own soil, depend upon it you must have "extraordinary levies" both in France and in England. I contend that the coun try has not been fairly dealt with in this respect. .How wore they, too, dealing with those bravo mon whom they sent to wage war against the Russians ? They were shed ding their best blood in attempts which every military an thoxity was telling you was certainly hopeless. The Go vernment were constantly told that, until they could in vest and surround Sebastopol, and besiege it according to the ordinary and invariable rules of war, they would never have the least chance of taking it. The Government knew all this, and yet they allowed the war to go on, and this, too, under the pretence that they wore fighting the battle of the liberties of Europe. As an advocate of peace he thought the war might have been avoided ; but he shared with the rest of them in the ridicnle which will he cast upon this country if we go on with this braggadocia without properly supporting it with adequate forces. We are like the Chinese in this matter; we show shields with tigers' heads upon them—we keep sounding " gouge," and we think all the world will be frightened at the noise we make. (A. laugh.) The question was, whether we were really to leave the country in the hands of Ministers who were letting the oountry drift into a war without anybody knowing what were its real objects. (Hoar.) For my part, I would infinitely rather see a Government from the other side of the house brought to this side, than continue in this coupe with the present Government; it would at least give us an opportunity of re-constituting an honest party in this house. He warned the house against being frightened by the threat of change of Ministers ; anything was better than this constantly lowering of the country in the eyes of the world, and allowing it to drift on into a waf of which no one know the objects or probable duration. (Hear.) Does any one profess to solve the mystery war? Is it to take Sebastopol? Then you must invest it . . B public t li l n as to the object of the Is the army to winter in the Crimea ? That I hear is now spoken of in the camp. You have had an opportunity.re.ec. the terms, and are now separated from the rest t o succeed ? of making peace. You allowed the Governmentf Europe, with with no ally but France. How do you proposoenv , must exhort f ictions. I I entreat the house to speak out its honest c own conviction when Y a men, and I speak my t as striking the heaviest see the danger before us of the loss of c_ oc o nt n_ fiott fi ds d e_ e nt : lce c_ e : san i look upon the noble lord's conduct in o f b noble s rd h, blow that has ever been well to our representative house, in his public conduct, sedulously hon. member in this sedulously to avoid such a line pursued. the member for the city of London has rimed. (Hear.) Lord PALMERSTON— .aims aimed t a o e t f m c ,o thata; ucl I can very Well understand that the hon. member for the;Weat Rididg, having views of his own, and wishing to form a party that shall place itself in • to administer the affairs of the country—l do a position • there is no re not blame hiss, proach in what I say—l can those qu i te understand that who hav e suc h v i ews s h ou ld do all that they Possibly tan to realise the assertion—the t ru th of which I utterly deny—that, other public men in this country havo lost the confidence of the nation. It is very natural for the hon. member to say that there are no men in this tocountry whom the nation would look up, an d round whom it would rally on such occasions as should require the reposing of great confidence in its leaders; but I deny that such is really the case. Setting aside all party feeling, T - say that on both sides of this house there are men in whom the country would feel confidence, and round whom it would rally in moments such as those which the lion• member has described. (Cheers.) In one respect at least, however, I think his statement is true. Without any disrespect to him or to those among whom he sits, I believe that they are the last men in whom the country would be disposed, under any circumstance, to place confi dence. (Cheers.) But, sir, I think that the pursuit of the plan of endeavouring to decry every man in a public situa tion, of the system of representing every man in pub. lie life as animated by feelings and opinions that are not honourable to himself and are inconsistent with his duty, is rendering a bad service to the country. I think it does no honour to those by whom it is pursued, and I have the confidence in the good sense of the people of this country that I am firmly persuaded that these p o litical arts, instead of those who practice them, recoil upon the heads of those who use them, and instead of damaging those against whom they are used, lower in the public opinion the character of those who resort to such unworthy means of furthering their political pur poses. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Cobden) has lavished* great deal of this depreciation upon my noble friend (Lord John Russell)—most unworthily and most undeservedly . My noble friend has pursued a course which I think waa._ eminently wrong in a person placed in the position which 11