The Sun. — London, England, 1849-02-17 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 16. Their Lordships assembled at Five o'clock. TURNPIKE TRUSTS. The Marquis of 6A.Ligillifirmovea for certain re turns relating to turnpike trusts. The Earl of GRANVILLE • was not aware of the existence of any objection to the p ro duction of these re turns, but he could have wished that the Noble Marquis had given notice of his intention to move for them. The Earl of ST. GERMANS thought the Govern ment had done wrong in including as they had done in the same Bill the very different subjects of highways and turnpike trusts. The motion was then agreedEßS to. P AP. 7iial GREY laid on the table certain papers relating So tire subject of transportation. The Marquis of LANSDOWNI laid on the table **stain papers command of her Majesty. Their Lordships then adjourned. HOUSE. OF COMMONS, Feb. 16. The sr . r.Asze took the Chair at Four o'clock. . PRIVATE BUSINESS. The following Bills were read a second time and • ordered to be committed:— Bradford Waterworks. Briefly Hill District Gaslight Company (for incor porating and giving all proper Powers to the said ... Company). Charing-cross Bridge (Amendments of Acts; Powers to alter authorised Approaches, &c.). Nast Anglian Railways (Ely and Huntingdon Railway Extension of Time). 'Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway, and Edinburgh and Glasgow Union Canal (Amalgamation or Sale or Lease of the Union Canal to the Railway Company). Molt*.lt 'Second District Drainafe. 'beat Yarmouth Haven Bridge and Navigation Im- Twovement. Landon Hospital Incorporation. Routh-Eastern Railway (Removal of Restriction against opening the Tunbridge Wells and Hastings, and Ashford and Hasting Lines, Grant of compulsory Powers for purchase of Lands, Steam-bosta). Taunton Town and Market Improvement. Whitehaven Waterworks. - NATIONAL EXPENDITURE. Lord JOHN HAY presedted 'a petition from Windsor praying fora reduction of the national expenditure. POOR-LAW;' . Lord JOCELYN presented a petition from the guar ! . "liana of .King's Lynn praying for some alteration in the Poor liemoval Act. POOR-LAW (IRELAND). Mi.. J. O'CONNELL presented a petition from Balla, in the county of Mayo, against the Irish poor-law. The Hon. Membes ,presented a similar petition from the cor poration of Lrmerick. PORT' OF LIMERICK. The HoN. MEMBER also presented a petition from the same corporation, praying that the port of Limerick might be selected for the departure of the American mail-packets, in case a wastern port in Ireland should be axed upon for that purpose. NATIONAL DISPUTES. Sir J. PAKINGTON presented a petition praying that all national disputes might be settled by arbitration inst,-ad of by an appeal to war. Mr. BAINES presented a petition from Hull in favour of international arbitration. IRISH POOR-LAW. Colonel DUNNE presented a petition from ' a general meeting of poor-law guardians in Ireland, praying for an alteration in the order of rating, and for other alterations in the Irish poor-law. POOR-LAW. The Marquis of GRANBY presented a petition from the guardians of a poor-law board, complaining of the increase of pauperism. Lord DUDLEY STUART presented a petition frqm Mrryhbone, in, favour of some alteration in the poor law. PUBLIC LIBRARIES. EWART postponed his motion with respect to public libraries to the 3d of March. VOTE BY BALLOT. Mr. CRAVEN BERKELEY gave notice that on an staply day he would ask for leave to bring in a Bill to pl cetnin Acts, or portions of Acts, relating to the maple of taking votes for the election of the Members of Pardament, and to enable electors to give their votes by wuy of b.diot. CLURCH REVENUE (IRELAND). Mr. J. O'CONNELL gava notice that on the Ist of 3thrch next he would move for a Committee of the whole House to inquire into the Church revenue of Ireland. SAVINGS BANKS - OREL AND). Mr. REYNOLDS gave notice that. on the lit of Ifurch next, he would move the appointment of a Select Committee, to inquire into the circumstances connected with the insolvency of savings banks in Dublin. MORTALITY AMONG THE SOLDIERS IN BARBADOES. Lord DRUWLANRIG intimated that he intended to postpone his question with respect to the mortality - *men the 66th and 67th Regiments stationed in Bar hailtoeti until a t uture day. TINt NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT. Ms. OSBORNE wi,thed to put a question to the Hon. Ce•Siemvin the Member for Lancaster (Mr. Greene) WI% respect to the New Houses of Parliament. A circular . bed been sent round to the Members of the House, by the direction of. the Corn nsiesionegs, soliciting Honourable Members to offer any oegge•stions they might think proper with respect to the fittings and arrangements of the new House of commons. He wiebed to ask whether these arrangements would be allowed to interfere with Mr. Barry's original plan, and it so, who was to be responsible for the expense? Seeondly,;Whether the dispute between Dr. Reid and Mr. k..4arry. which had now lasted four years—(Laugh ter)—had been finally adjusted by the Commissioners ? Thirdly, Whether the Commissioners had drawn up any report in which information was given as to the ultimate eapense, and as to the period when the works would be completed. Mr. GREENE replied that the Commissioners had ....deemed it expedient to send round the circular referred le, as they were anxious to receive suggestions as to the final arrangements of the House, with a view to the con venience of the Members, and the facilitating of public business. The arrangements upon these matters were not • such as would interfere with the plans of the architect, nor with the estimated expense of construction. Every one must be aware that many secondary matters trifling in themselves, yet important to Hon. Members attending to discharge their public duties, were required to be arranged in consonance with their views,' but which in themselves involved no great expense. The dispute between Dr. Reid and .Mr. Barry had been arranged by the;Commissioners in a satisfactory:manner —namely, that Dr. Reid should have the full arrangement of the ventilation of the House of Commons, and that his services should be confined to the House of Commons alone--the Commissioners allowing him all suitable opportunities that he might require for the outlet of foul and the admission of pure air.—(Hear, hear.) The Conitnissioners bad inot prepared any re port of the nature referred to by the Hon. Member; but, in obedience to the wishes of the ]douse, a return bad been prepared of the present and future expenses. An official return with respect to the genaral expenses rested with the Chancellor of the Ex chequer. Ms. HUME suggested that a plan should be prepared, showing the alterations that have been already made in the approaches to the new Houses of Parliament, and whet is intended to be done. Without some such plan, say pension would find himself unable to judge what was ibetended to be done.—(Hear.) He found places that mere doors once now, shut up, and places that windows once now turned into doors—(Laughter) " — mat how many more of those chaages were to take *we. or what was to be done, the Members had no means of judging without some such plan as he had suggested. Mr. GREENE replied that there were plans showing the alterations in Mr. Barry's office, and that gentle msl2, he was sure, w ou ld a ff or d every ' facility to any of the Members in explaining those plans, and the altera tions which had tak en p l ace, or were in ' contemplation. Mr HUME would lik e t o k now who authorised the wee now going on in the building up and pulling dowa, or who was responsible for it?—(Hear.) Mr. GREENE was not aware precisely to what the gin. Member referred. With reference to the ex_pense of the alteration s in the a pp roaches,an estimate had been A ped of the additional expense of those alterations. 'b© whole of those estimates had been submitted for ayp al to the Treasury, and they had received the Appose! of that department. WOODS AND FORESTS. Lord DUNCAN begged leave to ask the Noble %OM the head of the Government to whom the Mem bun of the House were to p ut questions re l at in g to mat sees connected with the office of Woods and Fore sts, Sin had been ttre Earl of Carlisle, the C hief Commissioner, ad been eleeated to the House of Lords? The answer of Lord JOHN RUSSELL was wholly Inerichble in the gallery. MARTIAL LA.W IN CEYLON. BAILLIE begged to ask a question of the Under- Seceetary of State for the Colonies. He (Mr. Baillie) found,. on referring to the papers that. had been recently published relating to the colony of Ceylon, that a dispatch was received at the Colonial-office on the 31st Oct., 1848, . communicating the important fact that executions under martial law had taken place in the island, and he also found in reference to those papers that we had received, no eliswiteh bad been mince obtained from Lord Torrington. . He wished to ask whether any dispatch of a later date thati • 00. 24, either disapproving or approving of executions . 'tn n. martial law at. Ceylon, had been forwarded by karl Grey to the Governor of the island ? And if so, Whether there would be any objection to lay them on . • stable of the House, previous to any discussion upon - • r the subject? Mr. HA.WES said the last dispatch that had been re ceived from Lord Torrington was dated the 24th October last, and lord Grey, by a dispatch, had previously ap proved of the measures that had been taken to suppress ;the rebellion. Mr . , BAILLIE said, the Right Hon. Gentlemen (Mr. gawes) stated, that previous to the dispatch, the i; weal of Lord Grey had been sent, but he did not state *Vetter any approval had been sent after the dispatch. Mr. HAWES replied that a general dispatch had policy e o n f t L o o u r t d a T p p o r r o r i v n i n g g t. o n f , _ b ba ut n _no se s n p t ec iaaplprdot!sipnagtcohf hthade u nderw. lie opS EMIGRATION. Mr.-SCOTT said he had been informed that great made at efforts were being emi geat i cie f r om the agricultural distr icts, and especially from Dorsetshire. He was surprised to hear r especially one that a gen le st a t emen t s , and n had been sent down to that county to Offer terms for a voyage to the colonies at such rates that the expenses of shipment, which were intended for five hundred emigrants, would be made ta. serve for a thousand. He was the more surprised at this, as he was credibly informed that there were applications for 1501 passages daily, and that fifty ships had already been dispatched with emigrants during the present year. If the case was as he had been informed, he feared that it would tend greatly to discourage the accumulation of fun& voluntarily forming for the purpose of emigration to other countries. He wished, therefore, to inquire whether a gentleman had been sent down to Dorsetshire for the purpose which he had stated? . Mr. HAWES said that h e h a d no t rece ived any no tice of the question, and was therefore not prepared to give an answer, but would do so at some future day. SITTING ON ASH-WEDNESDAY.—BRIBERY TILE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 17, 1849. isted—(Laughter)—but he hoped those who now enjoyed that honour would act in a far different manner. For his own part, he should give it every opposition which the forms of the House permitted. Mr. REYNO L DS having on a recent occasion spoken of the manner in which the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland acted, with great pain, felt it his duty to ask her Ma jesty's Government whether those prisoners now in cus tody in Silmainham gaol, as noticed by his Honourable Friend the Member for Westmeath, were treated with the severity to which public attention had been called? He understood they were deprived of all opportunities of seeing the public newspapers, and otherwise punished with unnecessary severity; but, possibly, as that prison was under the control of a board of superintendence, the fault rested with them. Sir GEORGB GREY replied that whatever culpa bility attached to the proceeding the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland was ready to take his due share of it—inas much as he approved of the step which had been taken under the peculiar circumstances of the case. The fact was, that six of them were removed from the criminal to the debtor side of the prison, and indulgences allowed them which they had not before enjoyed; but they then availed themselves of the facilities afforded to commu nicate with the public papers, to write articles and letters of a highly objectionable character. When remon strated with they refused to desist from the practice, and the consequence was that their removal again to the criminal side of the prison became a matter of necessity. Mr. F. O'CONNOR asked was it a fact that a Mr. Meany, one of those confined, had, for writing a letter to the Freeman's Journal, on the 9th of December last, been told by Mr. Shaw, the High Sheriff of the county of Dublin, that if he did so again he should remove to the criminal aide; and that on the 31st of January, when he had written another communication, the High Sheriff again came and asked him why he did so ' • to which Meany replied that as lo ng as h e h a d a griev • ante to complain of, be should not be deterred from exposing who injured him? It then appeared that the High Sheriff called for a party of police, and had him taken away by force.—(Loud cries of " Spoke, spoke.") Honourable Gentlemen might cry out " Spoke, spoke," but if they were in that unfortunate individual's position they would not say so. When the Right Honourable Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Depart ment admitted these things were done with the concur rence of the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, it was time that some inquiry should be made into the matter. — (Loud cries or " Spoke, spoke.") If the House granted him a Committee of Inquiry, he would undertake to prove what he had stated. Five others were removed at the same time against whom no charge whatever was brought, Sir GEORGE GREY had only again to state, that although he had not heard before of the particular cir cumstances alluded to by the Hon. Member for Notting ham, he would again repeat, that they were removed from one aide of the prison to another, and sent back again, in consequence of what he had already informed the House. With regard to a police force being used, that became necessary in consequence of the individual alluded to, avowing his intention of using force if any at tempt were made to remove him. Mr. HUME asked the Right Hon. Gentleman why it was that certain convicted parties in this country were denied all access to the papers, and treated in other re spects with a severity very unusual in this country? Sir GEORGE GREY replied, that though he was aware of what the Hon. Member alluded to, yet the Government had no power whatever to interfere. The Act of Parliament placed the discretion in the judges, and it was to them the application should be made. Mr. ANSTEY said his opposition was not at all abated, but as they had already decided the question, he hoped the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Limerick would not ask them to go to a division. He believed that the Hon. Gentleman had made various misstatements in his very long speech. For example, he said that the letters and proclamations of the Lord-Lieutenant would, under the Bill, have all the force of the law, but in that he was grossly mistaken. The Act of Parliament gave no such power; it authorised him to arrest persons suspected of treason, and confine them to any one of her Majesty's gaols as long as it pleased him. The effect of the Hon. Gentleman's amendment would b 3 to declare that a constituent asetubly, met for the purpose of petitioning, would be high treason, and as he could not agree that such a precedent should be set, which was calculated to affect seriously the liberties of the people, he should feel bound to vote in favour of her Majesty's Government, if the measure were pressed to a division. Mr. E. B. ROCHE observed that at last a voice was heard in that House in defence •f the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act.. English Members had spoken against it; Scotch Members had spoken against it; but a voice was raised from Youghal in its defence. They had now declared war against the Irish people; but he had no hesitation in saying that they would iu the end be discomfited. Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL bad beard of cottage law, and certainly, to say as the Hon. Member for Youghal had said, that that Rill would not give despotic powers to the Lord-Lieutenant, was the most absurd thing he ever heard of. Mr. ANS rEY, amid loud' cries of " Spoke, spoke," denied he had ever said so. What he said was, that it gave him power to arrest persons for treasonable practices. The House then dived. The numbers were— For the amendment ... 12 Against it ... 94 Majority —B2 The report was received, and the Bill was ordered to be read it third time. RELIEF OF DISTRESS (IRELAND) BILL. On the bringing up of the ref rt on the resolution adopted in Committee of the while House, appropriating a sum of 50.0001 for the relief of Irish distress, Mr. P. SCHOPE moved the amendment of which he had given notice, to the effect, that the sum to be voted for that purpose be a loan, and not e grant. Future grants must be applied for, otherwise the House would be charged with allowing the people to die of starve- . tion. It was, therefore, essential that a sound principle should be at once adopted. The land in Ireland, if properly cultivated, was quite able to support the able b )(lied population, and he did not see what right the landowners end ratepayers of Connaught had to quarter their poor upon other districts. The proper course to pursue was to make the fee-simple of the land liable for these rates. The present system rendered the cultiva tion of the land impossible, for as soon as it was culti vated the produce was seized for arrears of rate. Sup posing an estate had arrears of rate owing, to the amount of 1,0001., that would be equivalent to a sen tepee of perpetual barrenness, inasmuch as no person would take the land subject to such a burden. There were many estates in this condition. The lands were in consequence uncultivated and thrown waste. What excuse had they for paying these debts of bankrupt landlords out of the Consolidated Fund? These men benefited by the sums advanced, .and by enabling them to maintain their present position, they were nothing r. ge better than dogs in the manger. It was only by gra dually ridding the country of these ruined proprietors of the soil in the west of Ireland that any good could be done. What he asked for the British public and rate - payers was, that defaulting lands should be sold to pay off the arrears of rates due. To that they must come at last; and until they did so every step they took would only increase the prevalent destitution and misery in Ireland.—(Bear , hear,) He should then say a few words on the second resolution, which was to the effect that the money should be expended so far as was possible upon productive labour of the able-bodied poor. There were 21 unions in a state of insolvency. Ho would take Bantle, and Westport as specimens. They had 9,000 able bodied poor and a population of 38,000 men. These 9,000 paupera, in two unions alone, they were called upon to support, and he would ask whether they should not be employed in productive labour? The relief works last summer and the workshops in Paris would be thrown in his teeth ; but they were failures simply because the paupers were employed in unproductive labour. When employed in useless works men would naturally be list less and idle. But experience proved that, when pro perly guided. neither in moral feeling nor industry were I r i shmen deficient.—(Hear, hear.) Men revolted from employment on penal and useless works. Irishmen did not want acuteness, and had, as well as Englishmen, a keen perception.of what was intended as sham work from real work. As a proof that it was only necessary that the works should be really useful and productive works, he found that it was stated in another place last night, by the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colo nies, that the convicts employed on the garrison works at Gibraltar bad earned 381. a head per an num each, while the cost of their maintenance was not half that amount. H e asked then, why they could not provide profitable employment for their paupers as well as their convicts ?—(Hear.) Let them adopt the ration system in the one case as well as the other, instead of shutting up the men ix workhouses, and keeping them and their families in idleness.—(Hear.) Even if it cost twice as much to keep them at work for a year or two, it would be the cheapest in the end. They would be sure to reap a return at the expiration of that time, whereas by the present mode the whole was thrown away. They owght to imitate the example of the Quakers in Mayo, who bad employed the peopl e profit ably on 500 acres of land. It. was intended by Provi dence that man should maintain himself by the sweat of his brow, and when they considered that in these twenty-one unions there were not less than 3,000,000 acres of waste but cultivable laud, which would form an ample field for the labour of the unem ployed, he would ask, in the name of com mon sense, why these people should not be set to work? These wastes were as capable of growing grain crops and supporting stock as the wolds of Lincolnshire, or of other parts of England which were formerly waste, but now converted into fertile land. Then again another point might b e urge d, namely, the moral eff ect o f setting the people to work in the manner he proposed. How could they ever expect any material improvement in the habits of the Irish people unless they accustomed them to continuous labour ? In that light alone the principle of reproductive empl o y m ent was invaluable, and const i tuted the only sound and lasting foundation for future improve. ment. Ile would not further detain the House, but, thanking it for the attention with which it heard him, would conclude by moving the amendment. Sir J. WALSH said the Hon. Member seemed on this question to be totally impervious to the teaching of experience.--(A laugh.) The Hon. Member had for many years called for an efficient poor-law fur Ireland; and now when, mainly owing to his perseverence, an efficient poor-law had been enacted, which had totally beggared a large portion of the country, and was likely in future to beggar more, the Honourable Member persisted in urging other theoretical notions with that obstinacy which eharacterised deluded enth'usiasts, in the hope of carrying out some other part of their wild schetnes.—(Hear, hear.) With one part of the Hon. Member's sp eec h he could concur. The Hon. Member heti argued, with considerable effect, a rate in aid. He (Sir J. Walsh) must say diet he was quite surtirised at the clearuese of the lion. Members argument jon this t point; and it only showed what clear views he could express when necessary for his own purpose. He was not aware whether the subject was before the House or not, but he believed it had attracted a considerable amount of attention elsewhere. It was reported, whe ther truly or not, he was not aware, that the door of the Cabinet was lately a little ajar, and that hearing a knock, the Premier had asked, in the words of the nigger melody, " Who's that knocking at the door?" and in reply, the head and shoulders of the Right Honourable Baronet the Member for Ripon had made their appearance. But whether it was that the Right Honourable Baronet did not like the company he found himself in, or to what other cause it was owing he could not tell, but he drew back saying, " I beg your pardon, I will call another day." He did not pre tend to speak with certainty upon the subject, but he believed the Right Hon. Baronet had been influenced in no slight degree by the understood opinions of the Cabinet on this question of a rate in aid. There were many general reasons why a rate in aid would in prin ciple always act viciously, and in the present state of Ireland such a rate would be peculiarly objectionable. If they taxed the wealthy and thriving people of Belfast, for instance, for the support of the poor in the southern and Western part of the country, they would be entitled at once to say you have given up the principle of local taxation—we are part of a great united empire, and we claim that this shall be made an imperial question, and receive imperial assistance. With respect to the other views of the Hon. Member for Stroud, they involved, in fact, the principles of M. Proudhon, and he was aston ished they should have been addressed to a British assembly. First of all he proposed to drag the land lords of Ireland to the ground by a weight of taxation they were not able to bear, and then, having beggared them, he said the land would then be liberated, and fall into the hands of other proprietors, who would be able to give employment to the people, and cultivation thus restored. He would have asked the Hon. Member, if be had not retired from the House, how the land would be benefited by this process, or the ruin of the present landlords. The destitution which weighed them down would still exist, and press equally upon new pro prietors. He could not see how they were to be bene fited by succeeding to an inheritance of burdens which had ruined their predecessors. In the next place the Hon. Member brought forward that favourite word with Irish politicians, " the public interest " This was again merely a repetition of the views of M. Proudhon—it was merely saying, le propriete sat un vol. It meant to destroy the rights of private property after the manner of the Louis Blanc school; but it the Hon. Member would refer to the example of Williams -town, he would see that the plan he proposed bad been tried upon a limited scale, and bad been attended with the failure which was the in evitable fate of all such wild and mischievous schemes. Passing however from the theories of the Hon. Member for Stroud, he would state that his great and leading objection to the proposed grant was that it did not embody the principle included in the resolution which the Gallant. Major behind him intended to propose last night, and which was well worthy the attention of the House. That resolution affirmed that remunerative employment was necessary, but the present grant con tained nothing that would act in that direction, or do otherwise than widen the circle of the evils now existing in Ireland. He was well aware of the difficulty of her Majesty's Government in dealing with this question. Common humanity induced not only them, but many of his own friends to shrink from refusing a grant to alle viate the destitution now existing, but seeing that the grant of 50,0001. was so totally inadequate to the ob ject in view, he thought he should but be discharging his duty by forcing her Majesty's Ministers to the con sideration of more effective remedies. He was of opi nion that such remedies could be found; and though he had no wish to detain the House, yet he trusted they would bear with him whil e h e briefly stated his views on the subject—views which were the result of much consideration and some experience. (Hear, hear.) Now he asked, whether the question of emigration had attracted attention in that House? Ho could tell them that, out of doors, it had attracted much, and would attract more; and, limited as the grant of 50,0001. was, if it had been intended to relieve these unions by applying it to promote emigration, he should have voted for it with some hope of its doing good. It was said by the Hon. Member for Stroud, and other English Mem bers, that Ireland was capable of supporting more than double its present population. But those who made that statement totally overlooked the actual state of the country. If they had the manufactures of Glasgow or the rich vales of the Lothians to fall back upon, it might be true; but when Hon. Members talked of Ireland sup porting a larger population, they forgot that this must be preceded by ameliorative measures, and that it would take a hundred years at least to arrive at the results they looked forward to. He believed that emigration would be beneficial if it was carried to a much more limited extent than was generally spoken of, if in connexion with it they applied topical remedies to merely topical evils. He was aware how unpleasant it was to the House to have private matters brought before its notice, but he hoped that he should be excaved in stating the results of his own experience, his only motive being to show what could be practically effected, and the means of doing so. He was the owner of a considerable property, which came into his possession when he came of age, and was at that time principally in the hands of middlemen; a great portion of it was in the union of Listowel, which, though not in so wretched a state as some of the unions that had been mentioned, was also in a vary distressed condition. He was happy to say that thero were not five persons residing on his property who were receiving pa rochial relief, and yet the House would wonder - that he had bees compelled to pay rates of 9s. 6d in the pound to the support of the poor in other parts of the union. It was to him a serious favt, and he raid not decoy that he had a deep interest in the question of sates which this z , away his property. From the time that he had come Into the possession he had devoted himself to its improve merit, and also of the condition of those who resided upon it, and he could assure Hon. Members that it was a difficult and a tedious task the proprietor who entered upon it had—to encourage and aid the good and willing tenants—to stir up the apathetic, and, in extreme cases, to get rid of bad ones—however unpopular it might make him. It was indeed only by constant and patient perseverance that a poor could be converted into a pros perous and iraproving tenantry. He had always endea voured to prevent the sub-division 'of property. He had turned his attention to emigration as a remedy, and he had at length induced a great number of people, between one add two hundred, to emigrate to Canada, in le.t7 and,lB4B. This, too, was at the time that the Colonial office was endeavouring to prevent emigration to the colonies, and when they were told that the Cana dians were setting their faces against any further influx of Irish paupers. Notwithstanding the difficulties and diseeuragements thrown in the way of emigration at that time by the Government, he was happy to say that every one of those who had emigrated, so far as he had been able to trace their fate, had been successful. The Hon. Member then read several letters from emigrants, for the purpose of show ing the prosperity which had attended their removal to Canada. The subject of emigration was very often talked of as au abstract question, and it was therefore that he had taken the liberty of reading tho documents to the House, as' he thought they ought to carry a con siderable weight with them, although they bad not the official character of a: blue book. He was of opinion that they should trace many of the evils complained of to the effects of the law that gave relief to the able-bodied. Of the three Commissioners under the Act, two of them were connected with the Government of the day ; had the power of taxing and of sweeping away all the pro perty of Ireland.' The people of England ought to know that this was not a mere landlord question, though it was frequently represented that it was. He declared that' it was not a landlord question, but involved the happi ness of the entire community. They could not, if they wished it, ruined the landlord without ruining the tenant also. He was of opinion that the attention of the Com mittee upon emigration should bo called to the evils which were inflicted upon the country by the operation of the poor-law. He had heard it said that things would right themselves, and that although in the mean time there might be great suffering in Ireland, the coun try would ultimately attain to a sound and healthy state. But he denied that any such opinions were well founded, and that unless they altered the poor-law, the condition of Ireland would be improved. Lord DRUMLANRIG said he could not vote for the measure of Government. Of all the speeches that had been addressed to the House, he had listened with most attention to the one that had been delivered by the Hon. Member for Ripon (Sir James Graham), and in that speech his Right Hon. Friend had said that the time was come when Government must review the entire taxa tion of Ireland. He thought that in the present emer gency of Ireland, Government ought to have been pre pared to have brought forward a measure of a compre hensive character. So impressed was he with the inten sity of the distress that prevailed in Ireland, that unless something were now done for that country, he believed it was never likely to recover from its present prostrate and miserable condition. After what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Ripon (Sir James Graham) he (Lord Drumlanrig) eould not understand how that Right Hon. Gentleman could vote for the grant, although he had said he could not .give his assent to the continuance of such demands. Now it was evident that unless this coun try had some security that this system of grants would not be continued for Ireland, it would only become the House steadily and firmly to give their refusal. in uttering what he had said, he wished it to be under stood that he was actuated, by- no feeling , of bitterness towards Ireland—(Hear)—for he nelieved that no coun try had been so tried with such severe distress. He must, however, say that men had been sent into that House to represent Ireland, who had pursued a system of bullying and 'swaggering and endeavouring by every means to excite that most exciteable of people, the pea santry of Ireland; men who had never suggested during a long series—ef—years- any measure of a practical cha racter for Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) But what could they expect when an Hoti. Member 'could come down to that House and make such ridiculous motions as moving for returns of killed and wounded at the battle of Ballin- Hrry, during the late outbreak—(H ear , h ear , f rom M r . . Grattan)— and also moving for a call of the House when he must have ,known that at the present season of the year it was next to impossible that such a motion could be of any effect. The slmo Hon. Member had also made a speech of a laughable, it not ridiculous cha racter, at a time, too, that Ireland was in such a miser able condition. He had been compelled to listen to that speech, which he di.l with no pleasant feelings, remind ing aim as it did that " Nero fiddled while Rome was burning." The Noble Lord concluded by repeating that his hostility to the grant was not dictated by any hostile feelings towards Ireland. Mr. M'GREGOR said that, having voted with the Government- for the proposed grant, he wished to be permitted to explain why he had done so. He had found a great difficulty in coming to the conclusion to vote in its favour, especially when he recollected that Ireland paid no window tax and no assessed taxes, and also that she was free from the operation of many of the,Excise taxes. He had also to recollect the great distress which the city he represented (Glasgow) endured from Irish distress, and that recently the influx of the Irish poor had quadrupled the poor-rate in that city. He had, therefore, great difficulty in coming to the conclusion to vote in favour of the small grant of 50,0001. which the Government had proposed; but, when he recollected that some of the unions had entered into engagements, and had, possibly, spent a part of the money now to be voted—(Hear, hear, and a laugh)—he could not hesitate to vote in its favour. He had, however, voted for it on the ground that it would be the last grant that would be taken out of the revenue of tho country; and he ex pected that in future Government would lay on the whole property of Ireland a tax of so much in the pound, to meet the exigencies of the country.—((sear, hear.) He could not help referring to the extensive immigra tion into Glasgow from Ireland, and of a class, too, inoa pable of working—children, and old men and women. Taking into account the number of loans that had br en made to Ireland, he would prefer that the present sum should be given rather as a gift than es a loan. He could not, under the circumstances in which many ;of the unions were placed, bring himself to vote against the present grant. Mr. NAPIER said he was satisfied if they thought that a people who had shown se much generosity as the people of this country had shown, would not be wilfully unjust—(Hear, hear)—and he felt that if the Irish Members would endeavour to instruct them as to the real condition of Ireland, they would do better than by an indulgence in language of a severe or retaliatory character.—(Hear, hear.) The difficulties of Ireland could no longer be evaded — (Hear,hear)—if Ireland was to be continued in political union with England. She was taken into partnership at the time of the Union, but instead of enjoying the advantages which that event promised her, she had only been made the watchword of party—(Hear)—and the battlefield on which party politics were fought. No one could doubt that it would be a great advantage to conciliate Ireland, and to assimilate her to the condition of England. That could not be done suddenly; but it must be recollected that Ireland had now been for half a century united to England, and yet nothing could be more wretched than the spectacle she presented. It could not be borne that she should be continued in such a position, and coming year after year, like a mendicant, imploring for aid.—( :ear, hear.) It was fit that that House should join together and endeavour, by wise counsels, to ascertain what were the causes which placed that country in her unhappy and miserable condition, with a view to their anti. e re moval and extirpation. At the time of the union it would be recollected that the religious and political questions which had so long agitated that country were not settled. But it came down to the year 1829, when the measure of Catholic emancipation was carried. He would remind Hon. Members that at that time a great body of evidence was give❑ before the Committee that sat upon that question, to the effect that nearly one-fourth of the population were without any certain employment.— (Hear, hear.) At the time that Catholic emancipation was carried, it was understood that all parties were will ing to co-operate in improving the condition of the country. At that time the Catholic hierarchy of Ireland put forth a manifesto, declaring that Ireland wanted no turther political advantages, and why, he would ask, did not the Government of England then take up the ques tion of the social evils under which Ireland laboured ? ( Hear.) It had not done so, and England was now paying for the neglect of that duty.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member then referred to the Committees which had eat upon the state of Ireland in 1830, 1833, and 1835, and stated that the reports of these Committees had agreed in the neglect with which successive Go• vernments had acted towards Ireland, and the necessity of an immediate change in the course of policy pursued towards that country. The recommendations of these Committees had been neglected, and hence that beautiful and fer tile country presented at the present moment nothing but misery and desti tution.—(Hear, hear.) Each succeeding Commit tee blamed its predecessor, again and again re peating that one-fourth of the population were out of employment; and that the application of capital was the only means of bettering their condition. The House must not lose sight of the fact that Indeed had an en cumbered landed proprietary, and that although they had in the last session passed a Bill for facilitating the sale of encumbered estates, not a single property had yet been sold under the provisions of that Bill.—(Hear.) There was no labour fund or capital in that country, the pro perty was encumbered, and the resources of Ireland were diminished, while no stimulant was applied to industry. One million of the rental of Ireland was under the Court of Chancery, and there could be no improvement on those estates. It was a large series of practically simple mea sures they required for the amelioration of the country, and not what was calif d comprehensive measures. The recommendations of the experienced Secretary to the Devon Commission, in the year 1846, had not been attended to, and the report of the Commission ap pointed in the year 1845, just preceding the famine of 1846, met with a similar fate. The pledge given by Lord Lansdowne that there would be measures of an ameliorative character had not been fulfilled. The im perfections of • the poor-law were manifest; but, on the other hand, he admitted that the generosity of the Eng lish people in relieving the destitution which afflicted his country had no parallel in English history. There were three classes of persons in Ireland subject to the, payment of poor's rates —the proprietors, the tenant farmers, and the clergy. He admitted that the money contributed by the English people had fed the hungry; but at the same time there could be no doubt that it demoralised the people of Ireland. After the cutting up of the roads and half finishing public works, it was well known that the poor population was in a worse condition than it had been found, the poverty of the country was increased, while its resources were diminished. That:being the state of thinge, property was called upon to bear the burden of the poor-law, which, even in ordinary times, should have been accompanied by measures to stimulate industry. When the Poor law Act was passed, in the reign of Elizabeth, he found that that very session there was legislation for the purpose of re claiming thousands of acres of waste land in England, and the poor able-bodied population were engaged on useful public works. If the Irish poor-law had been accompanied by measures of employment, and the ener gies of the people aroused, then the burden imposed on property for the support- of poverty could have been borne, and the country might have survived. Look at the miserable poverty-stricken condition of Ireland. He admitted that the Government had great difficulties to contend with in legislating for Ireland, but difficulty was no answer to duty.—(Hear, hear.) Nothing could possibly be more injurious to Ireland than holding out prospects of legislating for evils which the energies of the Irish people alone could remove. The proprietors had only shattered incomes—there was no market for labour in the country, there was an absence of anything like capital, yet no measure of a statesman-like character had been introduced. The measures brought forward by a Noble Lord, now called to his last account, and with whom he had not the honour of being acquainted, were of a character calculated to develope the resources of the country, and they characterised him, at all events, as an honest Englishman, anxious for the good of Ireland.— (Hear.) The agricultural improvement of the country was the main thing to be attended to, and they could not do that without capital. A few nights since they were promised a Franchise Bill, but it was legislation in that spirit which was the curse of Ireland. He begged of the House to meet the difficulties which presented themselves fairly and honestly. The Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland said that the country required repose, and he (Mr. Na pier) begged, that as agitation had subsided they should have some measures for promoting the employment of the people. There never was a nobler opportunity, they might depend upon it, for a wise statesman than the pre sent, for reconstructing large portions of Ireland on a permanent and peaceful footing. He was not one of those who desired to screen his country from fair taxation; but they should candidly examine her circumstances, weigh her deliberately in the scale, and when they did so, place on her whatever burden she was in justice bound to bear. Capital, he repeated, was the great requirement. With regard to those ,proprietors who had capital, and who were willing to expend it on the improvement of their estates and the employment of the people—they were entitled to protection, for every man anxious to do his duty ought to be protected in the performance cf that duty ; and the best mode of effecting this was to care fully avoid the system of increasing the liability of the improving landlord, who, by the expenditure of his capital, and the encouragement of labour, increased the value of his property. Improvement ought to be a protec tion against instead, as it now appeared was the case, of being a direct incentive to increased taxation. If the Legislature, with increased wisdom, retraced their false steps, and legislated for Ireland in the manner which he had ventured to point out, they would set up that country again in the scale of nations, and in the progress of civilization, place her side by side with England. Mr. HORSMAN eulogised the interesting and in structive character of the speech just delivered by the Hon. and Learned Member for the University of Dublin, and stated that the circumstances which he had detailed were in themselves sufficient to induce him to give his vote in favour of the Government proposition, and against the amendment of the Hon. Member for Stroud. Besides, he could not support that amendment, inas much as it assumed that in acceding to the vote asked by the Chancellor of the Exchequer they had any choice in the matter. He was decidedly opposed to the prin ciple of grants in aid of Irish distress; but then the Government had made a strong appeal to their humanity, which he for one could not resist, and on any other ground they bad not a leg to stand on. He felt and ad• mitted, to the fullest extent, that those grants had a de moralising tendency on the people: but the question they had to consider was, whether, under the peculiar circumstances of Ireland, the appeal made to them should not be affirmatively responded te. When the crisis came, and the maintenance of the poor was thrown on the property of the country, the burden of the rate broke down those by whom the rates were to be paid. A devastating famine stalked through the land—there was nothing like it in the history of the world—the whole property of Ireland was confiscated to the support of the poor of Ireland, yet still the poor were in a state of famine. He could not, as a Christian Legislator, re fuse, under those circumstances, his sanction to the vote, which was rendered imperative by every precept of the Christian code. Nor could he attach to the vote the conditions required lay the Hon. Member for Stroud. The Noble Lord at the head of the Government had emphatically and properly declined to pledge himself that the present grant would be the last asked fur the purpose of relieving Irish distress. lie did not acknowledge it as part of his policy, but he admitted he was bowed down to it from a feeling of its necessity. If similar circumstances egain -mesa he (Mr. Horsman) would be compelled by those circumstances to support another vote; but there was ample security in the tone and temper of Parliament, and of the debate, which in dicated that they would not be trifled with on that im portant question, and that the Minister relying on future grants would prepare for himself certain defeat. He blamed Government for not being prepared with other measures of a more statesman-like character, and more certain to prove permanent in their results.—(klessa' hear.) Instead of those measures, they had nothing but a Committee, which was merely a makeshift when the time for action had arrived. The agriculture of the country was destroyed, and there should not now be any impediments interposed to its revival. What Ireland required was the re-establishment of healthy agricule rural relations. There were three impediments to her agricultural improvements :—lnsecurity of life, the bur den of local taxation, and the diffieultiee and expense in the way of the transfer of property. Each of those was in process of gradual diminution. The first crime was disappearing with the inducement to commit it—namely evictions and depopulation, both of which had been car rit dto the utmost extent. The burden of local taxation had been committed to the consideration of a Select Committee, and he should not venture to anticpate their report ; but he certainly would feel surprised if they did not devise some system by which the idle and indus trious would no longer be classed together. With re spect to the difficulties in the way of the transfer of land, the Act of last seseien for Facilitating the Sale of En cumbered Estates was a failure ; but, even if it had been the most perfect measure, it could not, under the circum stances of the country, have been operative up to the present time. The want of capital was one obstacle to its success. To carry out the provisions of that Act it was necessary that there should be a party willing to sell and another to buy ; but, in the present state of the country, there was, he conceived, few who would have any great anxiety to become Irish proprietors. If, however, they removed the bur den of those rates from the property of Ireland, they would disentangle that law from the difficulties which surrounded it, and that, combined with other improve ments, would have the effect of making the Act opera tive. They might also make a healthy addition to the system—for if proprietors were no longer terrified by those rates a step in advance might be taken in the for mation of small estates.—(Hear, hear.) There ware many men not able to purchase extensive estates who, if these were broken down, would readily become pur chasers of small portions of them; and were that donee a class of proprietors would be formed who would be Of immense benefit to the country. Holding these views, he was inclieed to give his support to the measure. He did it upon no principle higher than that on which he would relieve a beggar, a dying be ggar i n t h e street. He might be told by political economists that he was wrong; that while he relieved the mendicant he oppressed so ciety. But. there were cceasions when there was more virtue in the suspension of a law than in its rigid en force went; and if now he violated one law, he did so in obedience to another, to which he owed a more implicit submission.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. MONSELL begged to thank the Hon. ,Gentlee man for the kindliness of tone which pervaded his speech.—(Hear, hear.) The amendment of this Hoe• Member for Stroud (Mr. P. Scrope) might be disposed of by the simple statement that it raised a mere question of words; for the Honourable Gentleman could , hardly* really expect to obtain money from those districts to which it was about to be advanced. His (Mr. Monselrs) object in rising was to direct attention to the syistem' of which this grant was a part —a system vicious add hurt' ful to the empire at large, but especially to Irelatjd. He was not speaking of the introduction ot an extended poor' law—he thought that the greatest benefit ever con' ferred upon that country ; but the system of lier Ms' jesty's Government was that of bolstering up the poor' law by public grants —a system which squeezed caps' tal out of the country, and made it possible for the GO' vernment to abstain from introducing those auxiliary measures without which the poor-law could not work —(Hear, hear.) He did not care whether the mom/ came from England or from an Irish rate in aid—thie system would break down the country.—(Hears, hear.) The mischief would epread; it was said that there were twenty-one unions in want now—there would be twenty more before the end of the year.—(Hear, hear.) The difficulty in Ireland was the disproportion between capital and labour; and why did not the superabundan t capital of this country go to Ireland?—(A laugh.) De; cause Ireland was not put into a state to receive it. BY, the system of large el ec t ora l di v i s i ons the capital t h at was there was locked up, wed much was driven from th e country, and, by not :more ing some comprehensive mese sure with regard to emigration, we were preventing the proper proportion between capital and labour from oh' raining.—(Hear, hear.) Grants from England did Ire' land harm—(H ear , h ear )— a l l he (Mr. Monsell) wante d was to see her enabled to raise money upon her own re' sources, and for that purpose he had not the least objee' tion to a rate in aid, or an income-tax placed upon Ire' land. But he protested egainst either if it was :only f ° prep up a vicious system which would destroy the re' sources of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. B. OSBORNE had listened with pleasure to the speech of the Hon. Member for Dublin University (xtr i Napier), a speech whi c h t h e H ouse h ad seldom hea r d equalled by any Member proceeding from the Univer" sity.—(Hear, and a laugh.) There was but one thin% to be regretted, namely, that he did not inform th e House how he intended to vot e w ith regar d to the gra nt —(A laugh)—but as he had maintained that all thß grants from this country t o I re l an d h ad been attended with unmitigated evil, it was fai r to i nfer that he mea n! to vote against this.—(Hear.) He (Mr. Osb t or o n u l ht hod felt compelled to vot e against it because he h wouli be of no earthly use; the calculation was he be e lieved, that it wo u ld just l ast t ill S atur d a y fortnight.; (Hear.) He looked upon it as nothing more than an opportunity aff or d e d to the Government to delay thoss ~ long talk e d- o f measures w i th which her Majesty ' s nisters bad been big since 1841—(A laugh)—measure that must be described as a sort of political " Mrs. 116 r; ris"—(A laugh)— on l y t h e darkest allusions were tea',: to them in that H ouse , an d no man had ever yet see them.—(Hear.) The grant would be of no use to 000 whims it was intended to relieve; better that their Pre; tracted misery should b e put ail end to.—(Oh!) . was a spurious humanity; he for one would sooner h swept from the face of the earth than drag on from del, to day by means of Parliamentary grants.—(" Oh, 013, and a laugh.) It was only keeping body and soul ', e ° , gether; the relief in th e west o f I re l and was not sou'' cient to keep men as men—it was just suffici en t to debt's,: them to the level of brutes.—(Hear, hear.) The appl y cation of the Engli s h p oor -l aw to Ireland was a greet blunder; it was a curse to the country. In the soe" e and west it was a lt oget h er a f a il ure, and no tinkerill with a loan would meet the difficulties we had c reate°; Of the 130 unions i n t o w hi c h I re l and was divided, 11( were in debt beyond t h e i r means, and this exclusive °, loans from Government and aid from the British Ass e ° L ciation; they owed 250,0001., h av i ng received 241,00uv besides, and the assoc i a t ion h av i ng also fed 200, 0° children. In 36 unions paid guardians had been ar e pointed, and it wou ld h ave to b e done in ha lf t unions in the south and west. Ireland had no l e :, than sixty person s t o 10 0 cu l t i vated acres, and, n'af like England and Belgium, the greater proportion _ d the population were engivred, not in manu f actur es o ss commerce, but in agriculture; and they were rag s , in the di str i cts worse adapted for n gr il f ture. The larg e n e s s o f t h e area of taxation was not c o a rod for the landlord, but made the system intolerably to the claimant for relief. In most of the unions: 4 :j seetred, he might have to walk 40 miles; one case il e e j been stated wh e r e h e h a d to go 150. On a c o ro ner itiqu-st lately in Ne wcast l e i t appeare d that a man , wits his wife and child, h a d t o wa lk t h ree severa l j ourn ears 48 Irish miles. So long as the present proportion b e ld good between the population and the rate of va lue e _ e is the property in th e var i ous un i ons , so long wou ld °. people continue in a s t a t e o f d est i tut i on , an d gran ts 1 1 6 ; required. H e warne d t h e G overnment that if the system of out-door relief we nt on f or s i x mont h s aa , " Ireland, it would become impos s ibl e t o save t h at unfor te. nate country. The same sore that was now eating into the vitals of the west and south of Ireland would soon exteei all over the kingdo m . Th e C omm i ttee of the House, of Lords had declared th e re li e f of the able-bodied ass poee) that would prove injurious to the community. •"•". Twisleton said " it vvould be a fatal st e p to i ntro d uc e OW door relief to the able-bodied population." Lord Let s ; downe, in 1846, s p o k e of it as being a system of a -, cious character, and one that " must lead to the l e plete confis ca ti on o f t h e property of Ireland. " And the Noble Lord (L or d J . R ussell) in 1846 said—"lle not expect such a law would relieve the miseries of Ire' land, and he much feared that instead of a remedy ;, would tend to p e rp e t ua t e t h at m i sery. " And be eOO pressed the hope that " some sc h eme f or the cultiva tion of the waste land s wou ld i mme di ate l y b e carried I° o operation."—(H ear , h ear .) Th en, w h y h a d not l'e Noble Lord propounded hi s sc h eme o f h ome co l on i za tio' s —(Hear, hear.) lie would tell the Noble Lord th av there must be a series o f measure f or I reland; that ,15 one measure would r e li eve t h e d est i tut i on of tPitty country; and he call e d u p on t h e N o bl e L or d not , throw the responsibillity of considering those O va sures upon Committ ees , as was now the p ra ctice almost every instance. Schemes of colonization a n of emigration wo u ld never rea ch th e ev il s of kelell and he would tell th e N o ble L or d t h at t i ll be assimilat e a l , the laws of real and personal p ro p erty i n that cou ntr y and freed the land from the feudal fetters that a t e encircled it, no real benefit would be conferred on P - 0 ( land. They were told that I re l and was in a stiti,3 transition; but the only tran s i t i on h e saw was that tu 4 y a were getting from bad to wo rse . L et them not d e cei s , themselves with the belie f that th e ev il s o f I re l an d W e a, cats d only by the cooduet of the people and the 10 0 ,1 10rd, , . The „nett c ause o f t h e present state of Ire ls was vicious legislation. They used those l an dlordac f long as they were uset u l t o t h em, and the moment'lis „e, were found to be of no use t h ey threw them off.—( r„, ", r is rl hear.) People talk e d o f grants to Ireland, but he 0-ot, that since the Union no less a sum than 18,000,000 had been lent to E ng l an d and Scotland, and of that st : i a only 6,000,0001. h a d b een repaid, whereas 9,000,000 L P„it been tent to I re l an d , and of that sum 7,000,000/1" been repaid.—(H ear. ) H e did not think, therefore, when they struck the balance rightly the Pe ° ,,, a Pl a e a r,) England and Scotland had anything to boast of. - 0"*" - 0 0' He would conclude with this, that if their present r licy towards Ireland were continued there would be P a o petuated in that country a state of things describe d 0 ," ; art old historian —a No right, no control, no socie t y the life of man nasty, brutish, and short."—(Hear.) ijl The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER — I a s e Liv endeavour' shortly to recal the attention of the .L" .° 01 0 to that which it seems to have lost sight of for se g o boars, viz., the amendment of the Hon: Meznbero'cia Stroud. We have had from various speakers a ,g bu t many speculations on the general state of Irelaen• bev e little or nothing has for a considerable time Pas' t o said on the subject 'of the amendment brought before isu a House by that lion. ;Gentleman. My Hon. F a r ieva t who spoke last taunted the Hon. Gentleman the made leer for the University of Dublin with having ree° ° a he speech without informing the House in what W S J vs ; intended to give his Vote on the question novabefoTtoeseia but, to my apprehension, the Hon. Gentleman W s , i ao is liable to the charge which he has brought agni° s „, v ise Member for for the University of Dublin. Il e ; ," s his; about the improvement of waste lands; and, from the posed has said upon that point, it might almost to the posed that he was willing to give his suPrt at poQ amendment of the Hen. Member for Stroud,; = b ut that subject he has given • ther'Hotitteittititio' AT ELECTIONS BILL Sir JOHN PAKINGTON said that the second read ing of the Bribery at Elections Bill stood for Wednes day next, the 21st. Now, that day happened to be Ash- Wednesday, and as it was the custom of the House to adjourn over Ash-Wednesday, he wished to ask the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) whether it was his intention to adjourn the House over Wednesday next, or to have the usual morning sitting? Lord J. RUSSELL was anxious, for the sake' of the public business, to continue the morning sittings, and he should therefore propose on Monday that the House ad journ at its rising on Tuesday till two o'clock on Wed nesday, in order to give such Hon. Gentlemen as Chose the opportunity of attending Divine service. WAR IN THE PUNJAUB. Mr. G. THOMPSON wished to ask the Noble Lord at the head of the Government whether he intended to lay the papers connected with the war in the Punjaub, in April last, on the table of the House? Lord J. RUSSELL said that the papers were not yet prepared, but as soon as they were ready they should be presented. NAVIGATION-LAWS: Mr. LABOUCHERE said that he intended to move the second reading of the Bill for the amendment of the navigation-laws; but having received an intima tion from the Hon. Member for Stamford (Mr. Harries) that such a proceeding would be inconvenient to him, he intended to postpone the second reading until Monday, March 5. Mr. RICARDO wondered why there !should be any such unnecessary delay. He thought that if postponed to this day week it would be quite long enough. • Mr. HERRIES trusted that the Noble Lord would not be impelled by any pressUre from behind to proceed in 11„ . w4y, which must be productive of great inconve nience. If from no other inducetnent, surely respect for the. House would be sufficient. Lord J. RUSSELL said that as the prolongation was only from Friday, to Monday, no unnecessary delay could be imputed. Mr. WAWN wished to ask the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether he was prepared to state what concessions . Government were prepared to make in the shape of a reduction of taxation. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was not prepared to state now what reductions would be made, but they would be developed in the course of the discussions on the estimates• Mr. HUAIE thought the Right Hon. Gentleman ought to answer the question then. Did Government mean to take the duty off timber, because if they did not, this measure on the navigation laws would give the foreigner an advantage over the British shipbuilder, which would be a most unjust proceeding. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought it best to defer disclosing the natuie of the reductions. The Bill was then ordered to be read a second time on Monday, the sth March. ARMY ESTIMATES. Mr. FOX MAULE brought up the army estimates, which were ordered to be printed. NAVY ESTIMATES. Mr. WARD brought up the nary estimates, which were ordered to be printed. Mr. HUME wished to know, in reference to these estimates, whether Government would lay upon the table at an early period, and before the discussion upon the estimates, an account of the difference between these estimates and those of last year, so that the House might see what reductions had been made, in accordance with the recommendation of the Committee which sat last year. Tile CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was surprised at such a question coming from the Hon. Gentleman, who surely must be aware that the esti mates were frequently altered before they were passed. CLIS.NNEL ISLANDS. Mr. EIVART wished to ask the Right Hon. Gsntle. man the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it was his intention to introduce any measure this session for car rying out therecommendations of the Commissioners who had reported on the state of the criminal law in the Channel Islands. Sir G. GREY said the matter was now under his consideration, and he hoped shortly to be able to intro duce a Bill upon it. COLLIERY EXPLOSION. Mr. CAYLEY wished to put a question to the Right lion. Baronet the Home Secretary relative to a painful occurrence which had recently taken place in the county which he had the honour to represent. it must be in the knowledge of the Right Honourable Baronet that an explosion had taken place at one of the Derbyshire collieries which had resulted , in the loss of many lives. Similar accidents had fre quently happened before at the same place, and it was the opinion of the coroner and jury who had sat upon the bodies of the deceased sufferers, that they were caused, and caused alone, by unskilful and defective ventilation. The question he wished to put to the Right lion. Baronet was this—whether he had received a report of the in quest upon the unfortunate persons that had been killed; whether he was prepared to recommend to the House any mode for the regulation and inspection of mines, and whether he could suggest any other course by which a repetition of such a fearful oc currence might be avoided ? Sir G. GREY said he had received a communication from the clerk of the magistrates in the district im mediately after the accident happened, accompanied by a suggestion, that it was desirable that some gentleman should be sent by the Government to attend the ad journed inquest. He (Sir George Grey) communicated immediately to the coroner, and told him that Mr. Horner Smith and Mr. Tremenhere would be sent down to inspect the pit, in order that they might give evidence at the inquest with respect to the cause of the accident. He had received a local newspaper containing a report of the proceedings at the adjourned inquest, the evi dence given by those two gentlemen, the summing up of the coroner, and the verdict of the jury, which was " acci dental death," accompanied by a recommendation that pits and mines should be placed under the inspection of responsible officers appointed by the Government. IThat however, was not the first time that the subject had been brought under the attention of the Government. A Bill had been submitted to the House by the Hon. Member for Finsbury, but the House declined to entertain it, on the ground that the provisions were too complicated. It WAS extremely difficult to secure the proper inspection of mines in order to keep them in a proper and fit state for working. He had, however, placed Mr. Tremen here, who was an inspector under the Act relating to the employment of children in mines, in communication with various persons largely interested in mining opera tions in this country, and in communication with large establishments on the continent, and that gentleman had furnished him with an interesting report, which would be laid before the House in a few days. The regula tions which it recommended were too strict and minute to lead him to hope that they could be adopted in this country, but at the same time he thought, it would be desirable that the Government should have power to in spect mines where the safety of the persons working in them was endangered, and to compel owners to udopt some measures for their protection. The subject was still under the consideration of the Government, but the difficulty was to provide an efficient system of superin tendence without involving a large amount of expen diture. THE " COUNT OUT " LAST NIGHT.-COM' MITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS. Sir JOHN WALSH referred to the "count out" last night. He said he wished to know whether the course adopted by an Hon. Member last night in counting out the House was not a most unusual one.—(A laugh.) It was unnecessary for him to remind the House, that in the past disputes had taken place, and that long dis putes had occurred thereon, as to whether forty Members had been present or not when a House had been counted out. It was equally well known, that when debates that were not of much public interest were before the House, or were expected, that Hon. Members had exercised the privilege which they possessed, and moved that the House be counted. He submitted to those who were acquainted with the forms of the House, that it was most unusual for an Hon. Member to move that a louse be coun t e d a f ter one h a d b een ma d e , and during the time private busine t s h s e . It any H on . Members thought of by that stunting out o f the House t hat obtainin g suppressed the discussio n on some matter, he assured them that they were much mistaken— (Hear, hear)—as such dis cusSions would pr ess the of thb House on thousands of yes before th e a tt en ti on Mr. HUME had intended to have occasions. onvenient offered some ob servations on the subject. H e hl l ooked carefully through the orders of the H ouse, and was convinced that any alteration of them might be produc tive of evil instead of good. — (Hear , hear.) Re w ou d g that whenever Hon. Members moved that the House su be counted that his proposition should be seconded. Major BLACKALL said he was prepared to take a part in the discussion which was likely to have come on last night with respect to the passing of auxiliary measures for Ireland ; but he confessed after the pro longed d iscussi on of Irish matters since the commence ment of the session, that he expected a disinclination to listen tothem. He denied that there was any truth in the statement that influence had been used with him to thwart a discussion upon these matters.—(Hear.) On the con trary, he was most anxious to discuss them.—(Hear.) Lord DUNCAN refereed to a " count out" last ses sion before five o'clock, when the Alien Bill was ex pected on. The SPEAKER could only say that whenever an Hon. Member took notice that there were not forty Members present, it was his duty to count the House. —(Hear, hear.) It was not, however, usual for Hon. Members to make such a motion before the private busi ness had been transacted.--(Hear, hear.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL merely wished to observe hat tuaey of the Ministers frequently came to the House at four o'clock in order to make up the requisite num ter, and returned to their offices whilst the private business of the House was being transacted. After some observations from Mr. J. O'CONNELL, the third reading of this Bill was postponed till Monday. COPYHOLD TENURE. In answer to A quostien, Sir G. GREY said it was not the intention of the Government to revive the 13i11 of last session, on the subject of copyhold, tenure.. RIVER PLATE. Mr. EWART asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether there was any prospect of an adjustment of the difference existing between the Republics on the River Plate, and whether there would be any objection to lay before the House any correspondence which may have passed upon the subject? Lord PALMERSTON was understood to say that at the present moment it would be injurious to the public interests if the papers on this subject were laid before the House. SIR H. BULWER AND THE COURT OF SPAIN. Mr. BANKES begged to ask the Hon. Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, now that it was stated that Sir H. Bulwer had been appointed the accredited ambassador to another Court, whether the matters of difference be tween the English Court and the Court of Spain were adjusted, or were in the course of adjustment? Lord PALMERSTON replied that the negotiations on that subject were still going on. HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION ACT (IRE- LAND). Mr. WALPOLE said the motion for the third read ing of the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act for Ireland was expected to take place on Monday next. As other important business was likely to come on on that,day, he should be glad if the Noble Lord ,at the head of the Government could say whether the third reading of that measure was likely to take place on that day in preference to the other business. Lord - JOHN RUSSELL said he hoped there would be time to get through the other business of the day; nevertheless the motion on the Habeas Corpus Suspen sion Act would take precedence. THE ESTIMATES. Mr. HUME said he had put a question on this sub ject the other night, and the answer which he got was neither courteous nor explanatory.—(Laughter.) They had had estimates for voting 15,000,0001. of the public money at least ; and he begged to ask her Majesty's Government whether they were prepared, be fore the call of the House, to submit a statement—call it a budget or whatever they pleased—by which the House would be informed of the accurate amount of the expenditure of the Government and the means by which those expenses were to be defrayed. At the end of the last session they had had to have recourse to loans, which was much to be deplored and condemned; and therefore he begged to ask the Chan cellor of the,Exchequer whether it was his intention to submit to fife House a statement of Ways and Means as well as the amount of expenditure which the Go vernmesit contemplated this session. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said (as we understood) that the usual course would be followed. Mr. DISRAELI said he had seen a statement in the papers, that in consequence if the state of the country it was necessary to ha►e a great increase of taxation. He certainly trusted that the usual course would not be followed on the present occasion. Mr. HUME was sorry to say that if this system was persevered in, be should be compelled to take a course which he feared would be considered very troublesome by the friends around him, but until he was rightly in formed as to the means of meeting these expenses, not a sixpence would he vote towards either of the ser vices. He would be no party to any such thriftless measure as this was, to spend the money first, and then look out for where it was to come from. As it was chiefly through the assistance of the country gentlemen that this expenditure was incurred by her Majesty's Ministers last year, he did appeal to them on the present occasion, and entreat them to join him now in an attempt to resist such an imposition on the country. Mr. VERNON SMITH said that his Honourable Friend the Member for Montrose had asked two ques tions, one of which was as to whether it was the inten tion of his Right Honourable Friend the Chan cellor of the Exchequer to lay the estimates on the table of the House, with such statements as would enable Hon. Members to judge of the diffe rence made through the recommendation of the Com mittee last year. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that that was not the question. What his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose wished to know was, what means the Government had- in possession, or whence they intended to derive them, for meeting the expendi ture, and bow far the estimates differed from those pre pared last year. In reply, he might say that all the matters to which the Hon. Member referred had been duly considered. He proposed to lay the estimates on the table of the House, and take the discussion on the second reading. _ _ Mr. WARD said all the decisions of the Committee had been duly considered, and such a 3 had met with the sanction of the Board to which he was attached had been introduced into the estimateF. Lord J. RUSSELL said that it was necessary to adopt a certain course in preparing the estimates; but every proceeding which had been recommended by the Com mittee of last year had been adopted. HABEAS CORPUS (IRELAND) SUSPENSION 'BILL. On the question for thu consideration of the report en this Bill, _ _ Mr. J. O'CONNELL proposed the adding of a clause securing the right of petition in reference to the repealing of Acts ; and, in doing so, he again took occasion to denounce the Government and those Members who supported them for introducing this mea sure to curtail the liberties of the Irish people. He insisted that no case had been made out for passing this Bill; but, at all events, if they must suspend the - constitution in Ireland, let them take care to secure to the peaceful portion of the community the right of meeting to discuss their grievances. The Right lion. Baronet who introduced the Bill had been ashamed to admit that it was intended to prevent the Irish people from en deavouring to procure the repeal of the Act of Union. When a Minister was not ashamed to own such an object there was no hope for the people over whom he proposed to tyrannise; but in this instance the Right Hon. Baronet was too honest to avow the real intention of the Ministry in seeking this unconstitu- 1 tional Bill ; and he therefore had some hope the cries of the people of Ireland for relief from oppression would not be disregarded. The purport of the clause proposed was, that whereas doubts were entertained how far the Act of last session applied to the holding of public meet ings, "that it should be declared that nothing in the 11th and 12th Victoria should apply to the holding of legal meetings in Ireland," he was astonished that this measure should have been brought forward at all upon such flimsy pretences as had been adduced in support of this Bill. lt was most unjust to deliver up the lib er ti es of Ireland to the despotic power of a few individuals. Its effect would be to place despotic power in the hands of the Lord• Lieutenant and the Secretary of the Home Department, under whose control he acted. He con tended that the people had a right to coiduct a legal and peaceable agitation for the repeal of an obnoxious Act of Parliament, which was struck at in the letter of the Lord- Lieutenant. It was said indeed that the Government had not interfered with the meetings of the Repeal ' Association.. They could not take credit for that as dis playing moderation, because the sittings of that assembly had been suspended before the passing of the Habeas Corpus Act. In 1817 the Marquis of Lans downe :opposed the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, lest it might be brought into a precedent of evil imitation in future times. He should like, when he came 'forward to support this measure, that some one should ask him why he had changed his mind, and what was 1 the difference of circumstances which influenced this I change of opinion. He thought they ought to allow the 1 addition of this clause to the Bill, to show, at least, that they were not disposed to shackle the right of the people to petition against the repeal of an Act of Parliament. Ho appealed to the representatives of Great Britain, be cause it would not effect what it was proposed to accom plish. It was said it wou ld b e t h e means o f i ntro d uc i ng capital into Ireland, but ho would tell them it would have a contrary effect, and cause capital to leave that country. Neither would it put down agitation, which existed only through the grievances it suffered, which was now prostrate, and which this Bill would revive. They had made their election. They determined to rule Ireland by force, and they must pay for their own course. It was not the policy of former Whigs the present Govern meat were pursuing, but that of Nicholas, the despot of Russia, who fomented an insurrection in Poland in 1830, in order to crush and utterly destroy the liberties of the people of that country. A member of that Ministry was allowed to retain his situation, although he had during the recess been writing articles in his newspaper advocating the utter and permanent extinction of the li berties of Ireland. That individual was the Secretary of the Board of Control (Mr. Wilson), and proprietor of the Economist newspaper, and yet, though receiving the pay of his situation, he was allowed to continue his dis graceful course without check or contradiction. The Hon. Member concluded by moving the addition of the clause to the Bill. Mr. O'FLAHERTY seconded the motion. Ho did not subscribe to all the violent expressions used by the Hon. Member who had just spoken, yet he felt a grievous injustice would be inflicted on Ireland by the passing of this Bill. As an instance, he would mention that, when the WWI which he had the honour to represent (Galway) was proclaimed last summer, it so happened that the judges of assize were in town. and, in charging the grand jury, of which he (Mr. O'Flahorty) was foreman, the Learned Judge told them that the district was perfectly quiet and peaceable.—(Hear.) He should give the measure every opposition in his power, though he felt that opposition would be fruitless. On the motion being put, Sir GEORGE GREY said, the question was, whether the clause proposed by the Hon. Member for Limerick should be added to the Bill, and he did not, therefore, think it necessary to follow the Hon. Gentleman through all the statements ha had made. He should not detain the House, but merely remind Hon. Members that, as on two former occasions they had rejected a similar amend ment, and th at as h e was not aware of any new reasons being now giv e n f or it s a d opt i on, h e f e l t certa i n t h e mo tion would be negatived. Mr. H. GRATTAN should again record his protest against the measure. But h e saw na use i n pro l ong i ng the discussion, the more so as it was already discussed so often. All he could say to his countrymen was, that he hoped they would bear their-s u ff er i ngs w i th that philo sophy which injured innocence was always sure to com mand. He hoped, however, that those individuals who would be entitled to their liberty in March next might be set at liberty ; i he believed ei g ht een o f those who were now immured n prison, who h a d not b een brought to t ri al; or, indeed, against whom no specific c h arge was for the Right Hon. Depart ment, that Gentleman F. ° the ' °NHome adduced, and who were treated with a sev er it y wh i ch• ou ght to be discontinued. Mr. Statebelieved, the the question then befo r e the House was the same as that already discu ssed, and he sh ould not, th ere f ore , detain them by any leng the n ed observations. C Secretary l%Tß o f lie was not, perhaps, justified in saying to the Irish Members who had now spoken in that nouse that t h ey had not acted as they ought to have done in opposing that measure, but in 1833 and 1834, when he repre sented an Irish county, a greater set of tiltiv etnever ex