The Sun. — London, England, 1849-02-10 00:00:00

- IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 9. The Lone CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the Wool sack shortly after Five o'clock. • The Elrl of CLARE presented a petition from some place in Ireland, praying for an alteration in the Irish poor laws. Lord FARNHAM presented a petition from Galt, in the county of Galway, praying for an inquiry into the vtorking of the Irish poor-laws; also several peti tions, praying .for an alteration in the area of taxation to the relief of the Irish poor. IM MIGRATION-TAX. Lord STANLEY rose to ask the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colorries,what measures had been taken to induce the Colonial Legislature to reduce the tax imposed upon immigrants entering . the British colonies in North America. Several of his own tenants were about to emigrate, and be wished to know whether it ' would be prudent to advise them to go to Canada, or to ' transfer their labour to a more hospitable, though foreign • region. Earl GREY said that he had received a dispatch, stating that it was the intention of the GOvernment of Cana•la to propose to lessen the tax on im migrants. It should be recol lected. however, that in Canada much greater assistance was afforded to immigrants than in the hospitable state-to which allusion had been made, New York. In Canada they were forwarded to the remotest part of the colony at the public expense, whereas in New York no assist • anee was afforded them, and it was necessary that the . towns of Cantida should adopt some measures to prevent the immigrants from bee )wing burdensome to them. and last year, 'notwithstanding the tax, the emigrants • sent out :from this country were fully as numerous as the colony could absorb. The greater number who went out were unskilled labourers. The dispatches would be presented to Parliament in a very few days, and then the House would be in possession of much valuable information on the subject. Lord MONTEAGLE was not surprised to hear that there had been difficulty in providing for the emigra tion of 1847. The great objection made by the Cana . diens was not to the number of the emigrants, but to the disease, the fever,which the emigrants brought with them. The tax was so heavy that it had failed to increase the re -.venue of the colony. Itwas too high, and therefore it failed. Ile could show that as emigration had been diverted by the increase in this tax from the British colonies, so had emigration to the United States increased. At the time the Passenger Act was passed in this country, we were not aware of the passing of this measure of taxation by . the Canadian Legislature, and thus emigration to Canada suffered a double discouragement. He denied tbat the tax was applied to promote the comfort of emi . grants. In New Brunswick it was applied solely to , colonial purposes, and with regard to the transmission of the emigrants in Canada, it was so singularly de fective that the spread of fever in Canada was almost solely attributable to the method adopted for forwarding these emigrants. The United. States !provided for the transmission of emigrants. Earl GREY—No, no. Lord MONTEAGLE was at issue with his Noble Friend. The United States Legislature had enacted that . railway companies should provide cheap trains for the transmission of emigrants,and surelythat was an assistance. He wished to see a better system of emigration to Ca nada established, and the question would ere long force itself on the attention of their Lordships. He concluded by giving notice that he should on Monday move for a return of the number of emigrants who had left the United Kingdom during the course of last year, and the . ports from which they embarked. Earl GREY thought the British colonies had been -most unjustly censured, more especially when he re membered the noble efforts which those colonies had made to mitigate the distress which prevailed in 1847. He thought it was impossible to find a country in which public affairs were more efficiently conducted than in that colony, and the statesmen of that country had recorded .theiropinion that as many immigrants had arrived in that oolony as the colony could absorb. He repeated that immigrants and their baggage were forwarded for Quebec and Montreal gratuitously, while in New York the railroad arrangement, sailed to by the .Noble Lord, was merely of a similar charac ter to the enactment making it compulsory on -railway companies in this country to run trains at a .penny a mile. It would be most impolitic to endeavour to force the British American colonies to take emigrants faster thin a demand arose for their labour. Lord MONTEAGLE explained. Earl FITZ WILLIAM thought it would be advisable that the Colonial Legislature should be encouraged to .undertake such public works as would afford additional employment to immigrants, and he would not object to a grant by the Imperial Parliament for that purpose. - The subject then dropped. CONFERENCE. . _ - Their Lordships then, proceeded to appoint the Lord _Privy Seal, Lord Hawarden, Lord Beaumont, and seve ral other Noble Lords to manage a conference with the _Commons on the subject of engrossing Bills. Their LAdships, so appointed, left the House, and after an ab sence of ten minutes returned and reported that the conference had been held. . IRISH. POOR-LAW . The Marquis of LANSDOWNE then rose to move that a Select Committee be appointed to consider the adisinistration of the poor-law in Ireland. The Noble Marquis was almost inaudible at the commencement of his observations, and was throughout heard very indis tinctly. We understood him to say that their Lordships would hardly expect him to make out what was called a Parliamentary case against this law. Whatever might be its defects it had been loudly and generally called for, and far from its being a wonder or a solitary case that a Committee of inquiry should be asked for under such pircumstances, it was in accordance with the usual eourse of Parliament. They had now some experience of its actual course and operation, and were therefore in a position to remedy defects that they could not have foreseen. The difficulties which obstructed its appli cation had proved to be of a peculiar character, and in some districts they had been almost overwhelming, for their Lordships would recollect that it was a law foe which the country was not prepared. It Could not be expected that a country in which no such law had had previously existed, and which had been subjected to the calamity of a repeated failure of the crop upon which the population mainly subsisted, should be prepared for the operation of such a law. He was not, therefore, surprised at the difficulties which had ob strutted the law in some districts, and especially those which had suffered most severely by the last failure • but he was at the same time prepared to show that t here were some parts of the country in which the law had been completely and wholly successful, and if in other parts it had not been so, it was owing to causes which either could not have been foreseen, or, if so, which could not have boot prevented. The calamity of a failure of the potatoe crop had again visited those parts of eke country which had previously suffered from the some cause, but in those parts where new kinds of pro duce had been introduced the law had, so far from being overwhelming, acted beneficially, and the bur dens it imposed hid been borne fairly and cheerfully. That these burdens were not in themselves exorbitant, was shown by the fact that the average rate last year was 2. , . Old. in the pound, though no doubt there were many carts in which they had been is. , 109 . , and 20s. in the pound, and in one union they bad been 2i. 3s. Id'. in the pound.—(Hear, hear.) This excessive inequality, and heavy burden, showed the necessity for some ineiry into the operation of the Act, with the view of effeetin such modifications as Might be prac tietzble in it,—(ll,ar, hear.) Her. Majesty's Govern zuent were not prrimred with any speciiic receuumenda, films, but their Lordships must not suppose that they bad tl,rcfure ken indiff e rent to the expression of opin ion o n the s,!7bjec which had reached them from various ttuartfrs. . Various sugge,tions had been made, and Pcp , 'Cittily: by 111..j0r • Larcow, who had entered into details ' opm the matter, particularly With reference :t° Vl ie ( I , li.'SiOn of electoral divisions, which Werc . ,pf a most valuable ' and practical character.--(llear.) lier Mcesty's Ministers would be prepard to give the Concraiitee tta the assistance in their power from this and other sources, in order that they might Come to a sound opinion. Among the points that would come be fore them would be the advisAbility of renewing the appointment of vice guardians in some districts, in pre ference to the elected guardian's who had not carried out the i sle . In usanyAistriet4 ,these vice-guardians had proved most efficiegt ttilwieistraiors. As he had said before, it was not the intention. of ,the Government to make any speritic recommendation ; or to lay down any rule for tno guidansss ise the , Committee. They would JP4ve the whole , ft übjoet tei - itotnd when their Lordships had the report before them they would then be able to decide what was reqdired in - the matter. The Noble islurquis conclud ed b y moving that a Committee be ap pointed. Lord STANLEY said that w if n h fe e el h in a g d s r ho th s a h t o o o c ld ca h s a io v n e conSidted the dictates, of his o . . . ssed by he petitioners, tieferrsd to the opinions expre them as to the value however much he might differ fr om ed. the inquiry, and as it was, . be should abstain front , offering r thendefer any opposition to appoint 'meat of the Committee. But i, enee to these opinions, he did so abstain,. he could not abstain from expressing his disappointment at the 'nature of the speech of the Noble Ma r q uis, who had moved for the appointment of the Committee, and at the same time his own firm conviction that this Com imittee would only lead to the postponement of any real remedy for a great and pres Sing grievance. There were no doubt cases in which inquiry by a Committee was most desirable. If any member of the Government was deeirous of proving the extent and magnitude of an evil, of providing a practical remedy—or of pointing out a new mode by which any particular object could be more legitimately . and certainly effected—a Committee was useful as giving the power of bringing " the whole subject fully before Parliament, and before the public; of showing how the law acted, and the mode in which it was proposed to amend it; that was the course pursued wish regard to the amendment of the English Poor-law. .It was necessary that they should show the public not only the magnitude of the evils engendered by the old law, but to convince them of the applica bility of the remedy which the Government had in v i e w. In such a case inquiry was both justifiable and ' . useful; but in this case there were no new facts to be obtained —there was nothing to be elicited by a com mittee which was not already known to every man con nected with the south or west of Ireland—which was not notorious and palpable to every man who had, in the adeg,ree, inquired into the state of the count r y, atten tion to the papers which had been ( o s l r i gshi laid, b v t e e s n t the n) Governme nt themselves, on the table of their y `Loedillips House. The Government themselves re ' ':, : j u i te d . nothing to enable them to make up their own tniecTS, except t h e power of doing so.—(Hear, hear.) ' - Itutina4ad of this, they threw upon a Committee of say -1,404b5t were the amen dments required by the law. - Thbi'w not: the duty of a P arliamentary Committee, but nl * i't ajesty's Mi n isters, T t l i upon whom the responsibi `"'itiiro VS proposing such administrative Amendments in ex -1 s isting laws properly devolved.. The fact was, hdwever, the Government had evaded this duty. With respect to the working of the law, if he spoke of the part of the country with which he was personally connected, it would, to a great extent, apply to the south arid west of Ireland; and making every allowance for the calamity of the last years, he was sure he spoke the general feeling of all who had watched its operation, when I , e saw the law had completely broken down, and proved an utter failure.—(Hear.) If he wanted a proof of the truth of this opinion, he. would find it even in the speech of the Noble Marquis opposite. The Noble Marquis, as a proof that the law had, upon the whole, not been oppres sive, had stated that the average rate for last year wa 2s. 91. in the pound, but admitted that in many districts the rates had ranged from 3s. to 203. in the pound. But these averages were deceptive. They ought to add to the actual rate the amount levied, or rather extorted, from those who had the means of paying, to make up for the defaulters who could not pay.—(Hear, hear.) Thr , real amount they levied upon these parties amounted, in many cases, to double, treble, and fourfold the nominal rate. Take one union for instance, 11.19ths of it wen entirely waste and desolate, and of course the whole rut. levied upon the union has to be paid by the 8 l9ths which are still occupied. In the papers laid on their Lordships' table by her M,Ljesty's Government thert were ample materials for coming to a conclusion a to the utter inapplicability of the law. Out o' 130 unions, he found that 117 were in debt to an extent beyond all their means of meeting their en gagements. They had a debt of 252,000/.. exclusive of all assistance of every kind and shape which they had received either from her Majesty's Government or from the British Association, which amounted to 242,0001. more. But even that amount did not measure the whole amount of their liabilities. He found they were in debted to the British Association for clothing and feed. ing 200,000 children in the schools. He found, further, that 28 unions had received amongst them 198,0001. from the Government; that 200 of these unions were in a state of absolute bankruptcy, or fast approaching to it; the whole rated value . in 18 of them being 432,0001, while the debts were 222,0001., being more than 50 per cent. of the whole valuation in these unions. But the best answer to all assertions that the law was practicable, was to be found in the fact, that the Government, by their own act and au thority, had practically abrogated the law, by supersed ing the boards of guardians in 36 out of 131 unions, and placing in their stead a body who were alien alike to the spirit of the Act and to the Constitution—a body who had the power of levying rates, and who were at the same time not responsible to the rate-payers. This was contrary to the principle of the English poor-law, and it was contrary to the principle of the poor-law as it was intended to exist in Ireland. In 18 unions her Majesty's Ministers had superseded the legitimate guardians. But even the English law would have broken down had it been applied to the same materials as them were in Ireland. The circumstances of the two coun- tries were entirely different. In England the landlord really held his'property, and it was a fact that in the greater-number of instances property was in a larger number of hands than it was in Ireland—he meant as to the fee simple. The holders in fee had a common inte rest in seeing that pauperism was kept down, and the best use made of their lands. The land was in the possession of tenants who possessed capital, and thus in England they had both landlords and tenants who were capable of bearing burdens; in Ireland they had neither. In England the landlords had the power of prescribing to tenants the mode of cultivation they thought best for their land, and of insisting upon the tenant employing such an amount of labour as they -considered requisite, and however punctually a tenant might pay his rent, it would excite no surprise in this country if a landlord, finding his land going to rack and ruin, gave that tenant notice, and put another in his place—the tenants them selves possessing considerable capital, and having to pay the rates personally—(Hear)--had an equal interest with the landlord in keeping dawn burdens; and thus they had all the elements necessary for the successful working of a poor-law, because both landlord and tenant worked together.—(Hoar, hear.) But in Ire land they had a totally different state of things. Many of the Irish landlords were habitually non resident, and there was no effective combination among those who did reside there in the promotion of their interest. Between the landlords and the occupier of the soil in Ireland there was not to be found that class, which in' England so essentially represented the sub stantial, labour-employing tenantry. The subdivision of the land, too, in Ireland, was so minute as to render its due cultivation matter of impossibility. The occupiers were wholly unable to employ labour, and their interests were apart from those of the landlord. While in Eng land the occupier is chargeable with the rate, in Ireland it is imposed in the main on the landlord. Whatever might be the law in Ireland on the abuse of property, with which landlords were chargeable, the Irish land• lords in the southern and western provinces were little more 'than chief renters of the property which they bold. It was not possible for them to exercise the rights of property, no matter how much their land might be deteriorated, or to turn out the most waste ful and prodigal tenant, for the purpose of giving his tenement even to a neighbour, who might - be a most industrious man. He stated this as a general prin ciple, existing, at all events, in the south of Ireland; and he was Convinced that its accuracy could be attested by many Noble Lords around him, as well as by the landlords of Munster themselves. Under those circum stances; what' hope was there that the law which worked effectively and beneficially in England could be harmo niouily carried on in Ireland? When a certain alteration of the measure was proposed some time ago, certain ad vocates of that modification of the measure, contended that if the laws were so amended, the occupiers would employ an additional amount of labour. He contended that a diminution of the amount then actually employed would be the result, and his anticipation proved well founded. Could it be expected under the circumstances he had detailed, that the occupiers would employ more labour than they immediately required, or that the land lord having had possession of the land, unable to conso • lidate his powers, or to undertake their improve ment, would increase the amount of labour he had hitherto • employed ?—(Hear, hear.) The circum stances of England and of Ireland were so far widely different, that there could not be, the same harmony and unity of action between the proprietors and the tenants, as there was in this country. If the Govern ment meant to work the poor-law successfully in Ire land, they should introduce the principle of individual - ising responsibility and benefit.—(Hear, hear.) Unless they could by an alteration of the electoral divisions in dividualise responsibility, and thereby stimulate industry, no tinkering whatever of the law would prove satis factory. In some districts the unions were inconve niently large, but he considered that the matter of the extent of unions was of comparatively no consequence or importance, as it did not affect the principle of indivi dualising responsibility. They had been told that Major Torrens' report, with regard to a diminution of the area of taxation, would be submitted. Now, Major Torrens no doubt would ably and scrupulously discharge any • duty confided to his care, but the question was, on what principle was it intended that the re-modelling of those electoral districts should take place ? He wanted to know, was it on the principle of individual responsi bility ? ' If it was not, they could expect to do nothing, and the report would be useless. He was told there ex isted a complaint of the inequality of property and popu• Wien of one district as compared with another. If it wes meant by this that the economic and rich tenant should be joined with the extravagant and pauper tenant in contributing to the support of the poor of a particular district, then he contended that nothing could be more unfair, or wore manifestly unjust. Let the faults of the Irish landlords be what they might, and they were dearly paid—for faults, which they were not perhaps justly responsible with, many of this class were strug gling with difficulties which would ever whelm men, un less they were earnestly devoted to the interest of their country, and influenced by stern duty. The Govern ment could not carry on the system of the poor law ex cept by the assistance Of men like these, and he cau tioned Ministeri, lest :he new system they intended adopting might not punish such men for the exertions of the past, and take away all stimulus to future exertions, and all chance of withdrawing themselves from ruin. The :Government not having thought fit to state whether they considered the law capable of amend ment, or what amendments they deemed prudent, but having thrown the whole of the great question before a Committee, he felt it to be his duty, without, however, usurping any portion of the responsibility- that attached to Government, as a Peer and as an Irish proprietor, deeply interested in the well-being of this country, o+ which Ireland formed an important part, to point out how the law could be modified, and the principle on which they should act. That principle was to give the improving proprietor of the soil direct interest on the improvement of his land, and a diminution of his rates, and not to suffer him to be subjected to the support of the pauperised tenantry of an adjoining property, but to secure to him the benefit of whatever im provement he had effected in the condition of his own tenantry. Then the question was asked, what would they do with the paupers, and how were they to be supp orte d? Thi s was a question of e s t ;ndin li g e th w e a t s a d x e a c ti id on ed o l3 i Ireland opposed upon to theth e a pro g p r e a s v i e tie c n ha e r t a whole of Ireland, for the purpose of meeting the general expenditure of that country; for the e ff ect ofsu eha an arrangement would be, to paralyze local exertion and ac celerate the progress of that ruin which was fast coming on the Irish landlords; but if he were held liable for th e support of his own tenantry, and the protection from distress of all persons residing on his estate, then he -would gladly submit to a limited rate of ninepence or a shilling, for the general purposes of aid. He would not object to t ha t sum, beyond the sustentation of his own provided it were limited. and that he knew pre cisely what he ha d to poor, pay. He would also lay down as a rule, that until the rate witiatn any given time shall exceed an amount of sg. or. 7s. in the pound, the elec toral districts now existing should not be altered; but that when the rate exceeded that sum, when conse quently a state of manifest and increased pauperism arose from the neglect or inabilit y of those elected guardians, their duties shall cease and be transferred to paid guardians acting under the Poor-law Commissioners. If a rate in aid were made, it should be intrusted to the control of the Poor-law Commis sioners, and advances made to the paid guardians for maintaining the affairs of the union, when the rate ex ceeded ss. or 7s. The anions of Kartuck and Killarney showed that proper management had the effect of re ducing the, amount of expenditure. The Noble Lord then proceeded to advocate emigration and colonization, as means towards effecting the relief of pauperized dis tricts. The Cost of emigration to our North American colonies would not be more than 31. or 4L per head, or about the annual cost of supporting each individual in the workhouse, and under the distressed circumstances of the country, he thought, for the purposes of promot ing emigration, they ought to authorise the mortgage of the rates. Then, again, there were l arge di str i cts o f land lying waste and uncultivated, but land which had ; 011,'Av•.1 THE St N, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, never been brought into cultivation, but which had been left waste, the tenants going away, leaving behind them arrears of rent and rates. How then were they to meet this state of, things ? That matter was one of great and growing difficulty, because those amounts of rates were year after year increasing, and con sequently year after year becoming an additionol burden on the property. Now, how was the evil to be met? He was opposed in principle to the Government on its own responsibility appropriating large districts of waste land, and employing the unemployed of the population upon them. It was a dangerous principle in itself, and, there ..... Fore, he could not accede to it. He thought it, however, lossible that some arrangement might be made for ren- [,,ring those waste lands available for the support of the population. In several unions, such, For insiance, as the liilrush Union, where there was so large a number of the population out of employment, arrangements might he made for carrying out such a system. In unions so circumstanced, he would suggest that the proprietors should let on lease to the paid guardians of the poor, for a certain number of years, those waste lands which were so burdened with arrears of rates that no one would rent them, and that those guardians of the poor should either 'et them on lease, free of such arrears of rate, to respon ible tenants who had skill and capital to cultivate them, 1r keep them in their own hands, and employ upon them he paupers of the district, and thereby render them available for the support and sustenance of such pauper population, The rates due by such landlord could be kept out of the rent paid to him by the guardians, as well 38 any demands upon him in any other part of the union. suck a plan might be objectionable, but it appeared to him the only mode which was in the present circumstances of the country available. There was one question to which he wished shortly to refer, and that was in regard to what was said about taxing mort gagees for the support of the poor. That he objected to, as whatever tax was put on the mortgagee, he would of course raise the rate of interest ou the party of whom he held the mortgage. He would, however, have some 'listinction made between those who were burdened with claims in consequence of family settlements, and those who got their properties mortgaged in consequence of their own acts. He did not, however, offer any objection to the appointment of a Committee, although, as he had before stated, he felt sorry that the Noble Marquis had adopted such a course, He did not think it right to throw so important a question, the lamentable effects of which question they had fully before them, upon the wide sea of inquiry by a Parliamentary Committee, with out holding out the least prospect of a settlement of the question. It was necessary that the question should be speedily settled, that the landlords of Ireland should know what course was to be pursued towards them in respect to this important, question. Let them compel those landlords to do their duty, but at the same time they ought to enable them to do their duty. Give them, at least, some cruse for hope that their exertions in be half of those of whom they were the natural guardians might be aided and countenanced by the operation of the law. If, on the contrary, they did not do that, but made those landlords who did their duty support those who did not, the result would be the same as would follow from a dead body being attached to a living one, no advantage could accrue to the one, while the other would slowly but certainly die away, from the close con tact and corruption of the other.—(Hear, hear.) The Marquis of LONDONDERRY would not detain vie House after what had been said by the Noble Lord who had just sat down. .11.2.... complained of the appoint- ment of a Committee without Government proposing any positive measure on the subject. They threw upon their Lordships the appointment of a Committee, which would go through the whole session before their investigations were closed, and no measure would result from their labours in the course of the session. It would be almost impossible for that Committee to come to a definite con clusion on the subject, as the opinions submitted to it would be so various and so contradictory. He, therefore, protested against the delay which would thus be incurred, and called upon Government to propose a measure them selves, which would enable those landlords in Ireland who were willing and anxious to do their duty, to do so effectually. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE considered the course adopted by the Government the best which could have been pursued. A Committee of investigatioU was absolutely necessary, from the difference of opinion which prevriled on the subject ; and he could tell the Noble Lord (Stanley) that although he had suggested certain modes by which the present law could be amended, yet, upon any one of those modes there was the greatest difference of opinion, and it would not be safe to adopt any one of them without the fullest and the most satisfactory investigation. He did not agree with the Noble Lord as to its being the constitutional duty of the Government to have introduced a measure on the subject at once, without the aid of a Parliamentary Committee. In certain matters of public policy the Government might be constitutionally called upon to do so ; but in a question such as the present, where the amendment or abrogation of an existing law was the matter in view, he conceived that they would not be authorised or warranted in making such amendment without the strictest investigation as to what amendment was necessary. The Government, from the information they possessed, would guide that Committee to the consideration of the topics it was most necessary to in vestigate, and would be prepared immediately on the Committee reporting to introduce a measure on the subject. In regard to what the Noble Lord had said, as to the report of Major Larkham, respecting the curtail ment of the area of taxation, he could assure the Noble Lord that there was no suggestion in that report as to the equalization of taxation on property, and that he deprecated such a system as much as the Noble Lord could do. It was, however,- a subject of much diffi culty, and would be submitted to the Committee for in vestigation. He thought the Noble Lord was wrong when he said that the present poor-law had totally failed in its operation. _ . . Lord STANLEY—What I said was that in the south and west of Ireland, and extending over Leinster and Connaught, the poor-law had been a failure. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE was happy to hear the explanation, but even in those parts there was not a word about the failure of the poor-law until the occurrence of the famine in Ireland. In 1845 the poor-law in the west and south of Ireland worked well, and until the pressure came there was no pressure in those districts. Lord STANLEY—That was not the present law. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE : No ; but the present law was enacted in consequence of the altered state of matters. He was glad to hear the Noble Lord repudiate the idea of a general taxation; and he had no doubt that, after the investigation of the Committee, Government would be able to introduce a measure which would be the means of improving the present system. Lord MONTEAGLE was favourable to the appoint ment of a Committee, as it would be the means of giv ing information to the people of England as to the real s►tate of the operation of the Irish poor-law. The people of England were very apt to say to the people of Ireland, we pay our rates and support our poor, why don't you do so also? But the state of Ireland was different from that of England, and the Irish poor-law was also different from the English poor-law. Hence the necessity for information on the subject. He said that there was one point to which the Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) did not advert, namely, the want of unanimit between the landlord and tenant, such as prevails in England; for in Ireland, in consequence of the tenant re fusing to pay his due quota of his rate, through inability, or some other cause, the whole debt was thrown on the landlord, and from such a state of things it could not but be deemed impossible that the law could be adreinis terea with any system of economy. He had every hope tlmt this Committee would remedy those evils so justly and forcibly adverted to by the Noble Lord (Lord Stan ley), and that their deliberations would not be of a long eteitinuance. as expedition was essentially requisite on this momentous question; and he also perfectly concurred with the Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) that the present system of poor-laws was a total failure. It might be said that the failure was principally owing to its improper ap plication, but he (Lord Monteagle) should say that no poor -law could ever meet the case in that or any other country; nor should it be at the same time un derstood that he was for a repeal of all poor laws for Ireland, because the present law was a failure in consequence of giving to the guardians an unlimited power over property. He should add that this failure was not at all owing to a want of local exertion on the part of the Irish landlord. He highly approved of the principle of individualising property, so that each landed proprietor should support the poor on his own estate, and thought that nothing could be more unjust and irk some than that landlords who used every exertion to the happiness and tranquillity of their tenantry, should be obliged by the union system to pay a portion—a very large portion, too—to the poor-law guardians for others who had neglected, through dishonesty or inability, to fulfil their obligations. The Noble Lord then alluded to the report of Colonel Clarke, one of the officers of the poor-law, who stated that the prevalent doctrine among the people is that they need not work, but must be sup ported by the country.. He felt fully assured that the principle of individualising property could be carried into effect, and that much good would arise from stch a system. He hoped that that Mezentian principle, so aptly and judiciously, alluded to by the Noble Lord (Lord Stanley), of binding the living and dead together, by the union of solvent and insolvent electoral divisions, would be duly and carefully borne in mind by the Committee, and that the worthy, and humane would be relieved from the contact and contamination of those whose recklessness was so obvi ous to all thinking persons. He should say, in allusion to the Noble Marquis (the Marquis of Clauricarde), that the Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) did not by any means intend that the surplus rate of one shilling in the pound over the valuation rates was to go into a national fund, but that the Noble Lord intended that it should be applied for a specific purpose, namely, for the relief of such unions as Ballino, and others, were distress pre veiled w h ha e el at then alluded hne into the P d ear a np u to o P Jo e the m r nc i i s iogt m—(le company, quantity.dapnat sytStates, so much:th a t t h ese un i ons cou ld not re li eve dt a as o l l i w t uLnondtiea s r ~ o h a f en moneyadr. ) s ai T a he tatkheant Noble bh ye Lordehad . oaffindceininthDatusbmlinail room, not larger than the table of the House, there had been an account of the number of emigrants, and of the money they took with them, amounting, besides bullion, to 25,0001. in bills on persons in Boston and New York ; and, therefore, to the poor-law principally could he as cribe this and'other injuries that were now daily the lot of Ireland. Again, he would ask, what benefit arose from the Bill of the Lord Chancellor? Was it not ren dered useless and inoperative by the claws . which were added to it? That law of encumbered estates had never worked any beneficial result from the time of its passing to the present moment; in fact it had been a total failure. He was fully assured t hat the ex p ectations raise d by this law would be frustrated unless a j udicious c hange -were made in it, for it had been the cause not only o f dividing the landlord and tenant, who should co-operate in the reduction of the rate, but had been, in connexion with the poor-law, the strongest incentive to the farmers to leave the country. He gave his cordial approval to the appointment of the Committee, believing that the Government were really desirous of promoting an amendment in the law; but at the same time he warned his Noble Friends that the appointment of the Com mittee would not release them from the responsibility of bringing forward such measures as were required for the interests of the country. The motion was then agreed to, and their Lordships adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 9. The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four o'clock. NEW MEMBERS. The Right Honourable Sir F R A NCIS BA R I N G, the First Lord of the Admiralty, and the Right Honourable Mr. BAINES, the President of thy Poor-law Board, took the oaths and their seats—the first for Portsmouth, and the second for Hull. RETURNS. Mr. M‘Gregor, from the Accountant-General's Office, appeared at the bar, and delivered in certain annual re turns connected with the estates under the control of the Court of Chancery. QUEEN ANNE'S BOUNTY. The Governor of Queen Anne's Bounty appeared at the bar, and delivered in an account of the d►sbursements and receipts connected with the fund far 1847. POOR LAWS. Lord DUDLEY STUART presented a petition from Marylebone, praying for an amendment of the poor-laws. The petitioners in particular complained of the system of farming out the children of parishes, and praying that an inquiry might be made into the recent Tooting case. CHURCH-RATES. Mr. B. OSBORNE presented a petition from Wake field, praying for the abolition of chureh-rates. CUSTOMS DUTIES. Mr. EWART presented a petition from the same place, praying for a reduction of the Excise and Customs duties generally, and especially of the duty on tea. ECCLESIASTICAL LAW. An Hott. MEMBER presented a petition, praying for an amendment of the ecclesiastical law, so as to enable clergymen seceding from the Church of England to offi ciate as Dissenting ministers. GREENWICH PENSIONERS, Colonel THOMPSON presented a petition from 500 out-pensioners of Chelsea Hospital praying the House to take their case into consideration and enable them to recover certain stoppages which had been made from their pensions. CHURCH TEMPORALITIES. Mr. HORSMAN presented a petition from Sunder land complaining of the distribution of the temporalities of the Rectory of Bishopswearmouth. ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS. Mr. G. THOMPSON presented a petition from Wake field, praying for the abolition of ecclesiastical courts. THE NAVIGATION - LAWS. Mr. LABOUCHERE gave notice of his intention to move for a Committee of the whole House on Friday next to consider the navigation-laws. Mr. ROBINSON was anxious to know from the Right Hon. Gentleman whether it was his intention to put the House in possession of the resolutions he in tended to move relative to th• navigation-laws, before the House went into Committee on the subject. Mr. LABOUCHERE said that it was his intention to adopt the same course he did in the last session, namely, to move for a Committee of the whole House on the subject, and as he should then state to the Com mittee the resolutions he ' intended to propose, he must decline putting the House in possession of it until after he had explained to the Committee the course he intended to pursue. THE RECTORY OF BISHOPS WEARMOUTH. Mr. HORSMAN wished to ask the Noble Lord at the head of the Government whether he was enabled to tell the House what the new arrangements were with respect to the distribution of the temporalities of the rectory of Bishopswearmouth since the death of Dr. Wellesley. Lord J. RUSSELL said, in consequence of the intimation he had received from the Hon. Member, he had written to the Bishop of Durham, informing him of what had passed, at the same time stating to him that it was entirely at his option whether he gave the information or not. The Bishop, in his answer, stated that he did not recognise the right to a►k' him the question, without further inquiry; but that he had no objection to furnish the means of giving all the imformation required, and in his power. It appeared that when the vacancy occurred by the death of Dr. Wellesley a deputation waited upon the Bishop and stated that it was their wish that a new division should take place with respect to the revenues of the rectory. Those revenues consisted of tithes, of the rents of the glebe lands, and the rents of way leaves for coals. The whole value of the rectory of Bishopswearmouth in the time of the late incumbent was 3,628/., out of which the pay ments he had to make amounted to 1,6051, leaving 2,0234 The future rector would receive 1,200/.; the remainder would be placed in the hands of trustees for the four incumbents. Oa the motion of Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL leave of absence was given to Mr. Maurice O'Connell for a month, on account of indisposition. THE SECESSION OF MINISTERS OF THE ESTABLISHED CHURCH. Mr. GRANGER wished to ask Lord John Russel whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Government during the present session to bring forward any measure ,to relieve clergymen who had seceded from the Estab lished Church against the penal consequences of ecclesi astical censures, incurred by preaching in other places of worship. Lord J. RUSSELL said that it was not the intention of her Majesty's Government to introduce a Bill on the subject referred to.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member for Kilmarnock had given notice•of his intention to intro duce a Bill on the subject. COMMITTEE ON IRISH POOR-LAWS. Mr. HENRY inquired if it was the intention of the Government to propose an enlargement of the Committee on the Irish poor-laws; and also whether it was their in tention to propose that Mr. Bright be a member. Lord J. RUSSELL said it was intended to enlarge the Committee, and that it was. intended to add the name of Mr. Bright.—(Hear, hear.) THE REVENUE. Mr. J. B. SMITH asked the Chancellor of the Ex chequer whether any steps had been taken by the Go vernment to carry out, wholly or in part, the resolution of the House of the 30th of May last, proposed by Dr. Bowring, and whether the gross receipt of revenue, averaging about 7,000,0001. per annum, which has hitherto been stopped in its progress to the Exchequer, will in future be paid into the Exchequer, and placed under the direct authority and control of Parliament? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that steps had been taken by the Government to carry out the resolutions proposed in May last, as far as was practicable. With respect to the latter: part of the question, it was not so easy to give an answer— steps were taken, as he had stated, to carry out the resolution whenever practicable; but he could not under take to say that all the surplus received into the Exche quer would be voted by Parliament. HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION (IRELAND) ACT. On the motion that the House go into Committee upon the second reading of this Bill, Mr. O'FLAHERTY said he was compelled to say that he had not yet heard a single argument which had convinced him that the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act was necessary in Ireland. Whatever might be the opinions which were entertained by persons with refe rence to the prejudices and feelings that existed in that country, be must say that there were no feel ings of disloyalty now existing. There might have been some such feelings at one period, but he believed they had been grossly exaggerated by interested agitators. There could be no doubt that political agitators were now looked upon with great dis gust in Ireland. The suspension of this Act would have the effect of putting down constitutional agitation, which was the best safeguard for the liberties of a free country. He would ask the free-trade party in that House not to assist the Government on the present occasion and deprive the Irish people of every vestige of their liberty for the time might come when the same course would be used against themselves for the purpose of putting down all expression of opinion in Lancashire and Yorkshire. —(Hear, hear.) He hoped it would not be permitted in Ireland, because it would tend to the subversion to everything like political discussion or liberty.—(Hear, hear.) Considering the wretchedness which now existed in the west of Ireland, he was of opinion that if the Government relief measure was not adopted thousands would die of starvation in a day. —(Hear, hear.) Under these circumstances he felt constrained to vote for that measure, but until they went to the root of the evils of that country, there would be continual agitation, and annual applications for votes of the present nature. Last ses sion Lord John Russell had expressed his opinion of the necessity of some great measures for Ireland, and he felt disappointed that the Government had not come for ward with them. The only great measure this session appeared to be the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Aet.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted that the Noble Lord would come forward with some comprehensive measure to remove the evils which the bad legislation of this country had produced in Ireland. The question now before the House had been fully debated by Members more able than himself, but he thought he should be wanting in his duty if he did not fairly ex press his opinion that there would be no end to votes of money for the relief of Ireland unless some effec tive measures of redress were introduced. The poor-law was no doubt a good foundation to begin upon, but there were many other grievances, such as the aboniinable grand jury laws, which ought immediately to be inquired into. They ought to look to the destinies of that country and come forward with some remedial measures.—(Hear.) Mr. SADLIER said, he could not think of occupying one moment of the valuable time of the House in de liberating on the imperative necessity and importance of maintaining the constitutional and rational liberties of the Irish people wholly unimpaired, did he not feel strongly on the subject. He acknowledged that circumstances had arisen, and circumstances might probably arise, to justify those who might be jealous in maintaining those constitutional liberties in all their integrity, in appealing to this House for a par tial and temporary suspension of the privileges and liberties: of his fellow-countrymen. But he did think there had been no case whatever made out by her Majesty's Ministers—(Hear, hear)—to justify them in appealing to this House at this moment for a further ext ens i on o f th e system now in operation in this country. H e h a d only to say that, when in 1847, a flagrant and o p en s y s t em o f assassination disturbed and degraded certain districts of Ireland, when the Government felt it to be their duty to ap peal to this House for extraordinary powers to aid in the repression of agrarian crime in the southern dis- triots, of Ireland, he did not hesitate to respond to that appeal ; and when, in the last year, political excitement had been so heightened in various districts throughout the country, then he thought it but an act of mercy to many young and hasty men engaged in the rebellion at that moment, that restrictions should be imposed upon them calculated to preserve their honour and their lives. When he thought it his duty to give his support to the proposition of the Go vernment, he did so on plain and palpable grounds. He did _ say the absence of political excitement was essential to the industrial progression and social improvement of Ireland; and he felt that•amid the political disturbance and social disruption in those rural districts of Ireland, no party suf fered so much as the poor labouring classes of that country —( Hear, hear)--and he felt, that every man, practi cally acquainted with the condition and circumstances of certain districts in Ireland, was bound to give his un qualified support to the measure of her Majesty's Go vernment. But he believed in no country, or at no time, was such a matter brought forward as that which had now been placed before the House. If there were tacts notoriously public in Ireland to justify the introduction of this Bill, he should have no hesitation in giving it at once his unqualified support. If he could trace anything to justify the Home Secretary in holding up to the House and to the country any portion of her Majesty's subjects in Ireland as disloyal or dis affected, he should have no hesitation in giving his support to that Bill. Jf he had any grounds to jus tify him in apprehending that any considerable portion of the Irish people were at this moment disloyal or disaffected, he should have no hesitation in -; - giving his unqualified support to this measure, but while he had no small opportunities of judging of the feelings of the people in the southern districts of Ireland, he was bound to say, from his extensive acquaint ance with the feelings of the poorer classes in the proclaimed districts of Ireland, he felt it his duty emphatically to declare that those poor people were unalterably attached to the institutions of this country, and that they were devoted and loyal to the person and the crown of the Queen—(Hear, hear)—and if there were any discontent and disaffection among the people of Ireland. that dis content and disaffection arose from the policy of the existing Cabinet.—(Hear, hear.) He complained of the grounds on which the present Bill was introduced. It seemed to him that the letter of the Lord. Lieutenant had been read for the purpose of persuading the House to a continuance of the coercive legislation in Ireland, as calculated to stimulate the industry and to develop the resources of that country. He had already said he acknowledged that public tranquillity and social order were essential to the progress of iu- dustry in Ireland; but it would be idle and puerile to contend that the existence of social order alone ever could secure to the people of Ireland the blessings and consequences;of industrial occupations. (Hear, hear.) He averred that if they desired to scare capital from Ireland—(Hear, hear)—if they de sired to hunt from the country the independent and in dustrious portion of its population, they would continue that miserable system of coercion —(Hear, hear)—that miserable make-shift, they would continue to suspend the constitution of that country, and to place the people at the mercy of a political dictator.—(Hear, hear.) He understood that the measure was introduced as a social and not as a political measure, and it was de decidedly understood also that it should in no way in terfere with the question of the repeal of the union. He had been led to believe that under the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act only 120 individuals were imprisoned, and he believed that only 106 persons were retained in prison under the same authority. He might indeed cite the expressions of the Ministry themselves as a reason for opposing the present proposition. As an evidence of the state of feeling among the Irish people, he might state that within the last few months, at a time of the greatest political excitement, it had been his duty at a public dinner, in one of the proclaimed districts, to give as a toast her Majesty's health, and he could say—as it was indeed his bounden duty—to the House that nowhere could that sentiment have been received more in accordance with the feelings of any loyal subject, or even as her Majesty herself might have desired: He had also ;in his capacity of chairman, been desirdits of giving the health of Lord Clarendon, but he found 'from the temper of those present that there would be an in superable difficulty in separating a private and deserved compliment to that respected nobleman from a general approval of the conduct and policy of her Majesty's Mi nisters, and desirous as he was of paying that compliment he was compelled, in compliance with the temper of the people, to give up his design. They could not forget the manner in which when, in opposition, her Majesty's Ministers bad, with so much excitement, en forced the claims of the Irish people, and the energy and power with which they had always entered into any discussion that was connected - with Irish subjects. He could not forget the effect with which they had spoken of the ex pense of retaining 25,000 men for the defence of Ireland, in days now long since gone by. He thought the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern ment had neglected many opportunities since his return to office of doing good to Ireland. He ought long ago to have availed himself of the singular opportunity of all parties having but one feeling upon the subject of Ireland, and being willing to give him support in the introduction of a comprehensive scheme calcu lated to remove the miseries and redress the griev ances of the people of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord took occasion, during the last session, to protect and defend the policy ot Government ; and in speaking of the distribution of millions of the public money in Ireland, he threw the responsibility and blame with regard to the expen diture of the funds upon the gentry and rate payers of Ireland. He said they had within them selves the power of diverting into more productive channels the immense fund that was voted for the relief of the Irish distress, but the Noble Lord omitted to inform the House that no discre tion was vested in the people of Ireland with regard to the appropriation of the fund. He forgot to inform the House the fund was entirely and absolutely at the control of the Government. The conduct of Government with refer ence to the condition of the labouring classes of Ireland was calculated to create in that country a feeling of discontent and dissatisfaction, and a want of confidence in the resources and resuscitating fertility of the land—a feeling which would take a long time to remove. Could anything be more disheartening to the enterprising and industrious man in Ireland than the exhibition which three Members of the Cabinet had piesented - to the House during the present week ?—(Hear.) Essaying to discuss subjects which Must always be of vital importance to every interest in Ireland, what had been their course? The Home Secre tary for Ireland assured them the question of the area of taxation in connexion with the Irish poor-law was one of such vital consequence, and involved so much in difficulties, that it was impossible to legislate upon the subject, and the matter must bo referred to a Committee, but during the same week he informed the House that under the existing law the Poor-law Cow missioners had the power of treating that difficult ques tion and adjudicating upon it. And in the same week ho told the House that the vital question was to form no portion of the investigation of the Committee about to be appointed. (Cries of " Hear, hear.") The Chancellor of the Exchequer had occasion to advert to the appalling destitution of certain districts in Ireland, and he furnished them with statistics of the misery and sufferings of the people with which they had all been previously too familiar, but what was his surprise when the Right Hon. Gentleman in the same breath confessed that he had come to no conclusion on the subject, nor had he any proposition or remedy to propound with the view of mitigating the evil.—(Hear, hear.) CONFERENCE WITH THE LORDS. A messenger from the Lords appeared at the table and stated that their Lordships were desirous of having a conference with the Commons on the subject of en grossing Bills. Members were accordingly selected to conduct the Conference, and retired to enter upon their duties. After a short absence the conference returned, and Sir GEORGE GREY reported to the House that the conference from the House of Lords had agreed with the Commons with respect to the alterations proposed. Mr. SADLIER resumed his address. He was direct ing attention to the course pursued by the Chancellor of the Exchequer during the present week, with a view of showing what were the views of the Government towards Ireland, and he had clearly shown the House that there were no elements of union`between the members of her Majesty's Government on matters of vital interest to the people of Ireland.—(Hear. hear.) The family party of which the Government was composed placed themselves, by their respective statements to the House, in the posi tion in which the late Chief Baron (O'Grady) of Ireland once found himself. The Chief Baron was associated in the consideration of a complex question with Baron Fos ter and Baron M'Clelland, and after having heard each of them deliver his judgment, he briefly declared that he was compelled to agree with his brother M.Clelland for the reasons given by his brother Foster—(Laughter) —and the Noble Lord was prepared to give his reasons on the affairs of the people of Ireland, for the same reasons assigned by his Right Honourable relative the Chancellor of the Exchequer.—(A laugh.) There was a sad want of knowledge displayed by her Majesty's Ministers in the Legislature on the affairs of Ireland, and of the amount of destitution which the people of that country were suffering under; and it was because the people of Ireland found that there was nothing in the promises of the Government that they had no confidence in those promises. It was because they saw no step taken by the Government to draw out their in dustrial resources and their manufacturing power, . that they could not: have any confidence in them; and, he must say, :if the Noble Lord were to come down to the House to-morrow, and declare that he had some com prehensive scheme for the alleviation of the burdens of the people of Ireland, and for the removal of her griev ances, that he, for one, would nut place confidence in him. He saw neither union nor habits of business in the members of the Cabinet, and he did not see that they brought any information before the House of a satis factory nature on Irish questions. He asked, was it pos sible that any reasonable or sensible man, accustomed to business, could place confidence in her Majesty Govern ment in relation to Lhe Irish Bills brought into that House by them? When they found the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for Ireland holding the various offices of Secretary for Ireland, his position as a Member of Parliament, and his office of a PoOr-law Commissioner for Ireland, how, he would ask, could it be expected that he could discharge in that House the various duties appertaihing to those offices? He asked, was it fair that the time of the Right Hon. Baronet should be taken up by the duties ot a Poor-law Commis sioner for Ireland? Either, he submitted, the Right FEBRUARY 10, 1849, Hon. Baronet should retire from the one situation or the other; and he should say the sooner they male their or rangements for the introduction into that (louse of an Irish law officer of the Crown the better, for if they laded to make such arrangements they would heve a repetition of that bungling which was so remarkable on Irish affairs last session. He believed this measure, and the propo sition of advancing 50,000/ to Ireland, to be brought forward to keep the present Government in power. The people of Ireland were dissatisfied and discontented, be cause 3,000,000 of them was reduced to a state of posi tive pauperism—because no measures of real relief were brought,, forward for their advantage, and because an increased quantity of land was being placed under the mismanagement of the Court of Chancery. But although they were dissatisfied on these and other grounds, they were yet not liable to be affected by the inflammatory views of dangerous men, and therefore the measure be ' fore the House was not that which that House ought to be legislating upon, but one calculated to improve the social condition of the country. The Honourable Gentleman then referred to the way in which the college and other ecclesiastical estates in Ireland were mis managed, and said that if the House looked at the papers relating to the state of the poor in Ireland, they would find that a large mass of the pauper poor in Ireland was identified with the ecclesiastical property in that country. They were constantly talking about Irishmen not placing reliance on themselves. This might be true, that Irish men exhibited a want of self-reliance on themselves, .nit the acts of that House were calculated to increase that want of self-reliance. He was aware that out of the 13,000,0001. of property in Ireland, 5,000,000/. must change hands; and this being so, it was their duty to take the state of Ireland into their consideration, and es pecially the legal rights of the landlords and tenants in that country, with a view to their improvement. It was said that there was clamour in Ireland. Could it be otherwise so long as the people were suffering, and in a state of misery unknown to any other people of any na tion in the world? He concluded by moving that this Bill be read a second time that day ix months. Mr. S. CRAWFORD seconded the motion. Mr. H. W. BARRON said there was no tendency in Ireland to political excitement. He knew, from his own personal knowledge that the Yonne. Ireland party re gretted the course which they had taken, and he therefore cautioned the Government against exciting the public mind by continuing the Irish Coercion Act in existence, It was said that this Act had put down insurrection in Ireland, and that, therefore, it should be continued in force now that there was no insurrection there. This might be good logic in Algeria, but it never could be endured in this country. What was wanted in Ireland was employment, and it was the duty of the Govern ment to adopt means by which this employment could be obtained. They might talk of the idleness of the Celts, but, from his experience, he could say that no people in the world were more ready to work for a fair day's wages; indeed, in his neighbourhood, they always gave full value for the wages they re ceived. It was constantly stated in a leading journal, even to that very day, that the pauperism of the Irish was owing to the misconduct and mismanagement of the landlords. He denied that such was the case. It was put forward in utter ignorance of the facts. They should not allow such statements to influence them, which were made by " penny. a-liners," who must find something to write about. It was not by coercion Bills, but by reme dial measures, that they could expect to make Ireland tranquil and prosperous. Mr. S. CRAWFORD said he wished to assign briefly the reasons which would influence his vote upon this motion. His main objection to the measure was, that he was unwilling to entrust parties of diffe rent politics from those of the present Government with such extended powers as this Bill would confer, and which might fall into less trustworthy hands it there was a change of Government. He objected to it because it had not been made out that there was a renewal of disturbances, for he heard of no dis turbances whatever but the miserable affair at Clon mel. It had also been assigned as a reason in its sup port, that the people had not surrendered their arms. The reasons assigned for proposing this Bill was not satisfactory. It was further said that this Bill was ne cessary to repress agitation. Now, he would ask, was it possible for any man to carry on a systematic agita tion, such as had been conducted by a late Hon. Gentle-' man. He felt assured that such an agitation could not be renewed. The reasons brought forward in support of the Bill were insufficient, and be felt, therefore, bound to oppose it. They ought to have brought forward reme dial measures; above all they should adjust the relation between landlord and tenant in that country, without which they could never expect to see Ireland in a satis factory state. He opposed the Bill because remedial measures were not proposed, because the Government had not redeemed its pledges. Colonel THOMPSON said he would vote for the second reading of the Bill, in the hope of having an op portunity of voting for an abridgement of its duration. Mr. OSBORNE said he could not agree with those who stated that the late insurrection was a mock rebel lion. He, on the contrary, believed that if the rebels had had one success, that country would have been plunged in blood, and perhaps in revolution.—(Hear.) He thought the praises bestowed on Lord Clarendon were greatly exaggerated. He saw no reason for giving his confidence to the present Lord-Lieutenant. The Government of Ireland was not upheld by the force of public opinion, but by the force of her Majesty's troops. The course pursued by the Government was most unsatisfactory. One night they came down to the House, asking for a grant of fifty thousand pounds for twenty-one unions in the west of Ireland, and the next night ask for a renewal of the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. Much had been expected from the Devon Commission, and yet the only measure founded on the recommendations of that Commission adopted by the Government, was that of fixing the Irish constabulary on the Consolidated Fund. What had become of the Church question, which heretofore had been declared to be the root of the evils of the country ? What, in fine, had become of all the mea sures which were contemplated for the benefit of Ireland on the present Ministry coming into power ? He would ask the Noble Lord at the head of the Government, why he had turned out the last Administration which were composed of honest men who were fairly carrying out their principles ? Were Members on that side of the House called upon to vote upon that occasion, for no other purpose than to put the. Mintos, the Elliotts, and the Russells in office. He wished to know what the Government meant to do at the end of six months, when the Bill was to expire. He was not satisfied with measures of coercion and votes of money as a system of governing Ireland, and should therefore vote against the Bill. Mr. REYNOLDS said not having been present when the Bill was first brought forward he was now anxious to offer a few observations upon the motion. When the Bill was introduced last session he had some difficulty in voting against it, but he had none now, for he heard no reasons assigned in its support which satisfied him of its necessity. Reference had been made to the letter of the Lord-Lieutenant and harsh expressions used towards it to which he could not agree. There was nothing very wrong in Lord Clarendon writing a letter to the Prime Minister, and recommending a certain course to be pur sued, but it would be wrong in that House to take his advice. Much had been said in censure of the Lord Lieutenant, but, for his own part, he admired his private and public life, and could not help recollecting, with feelings of gratitude, his refusal to turn the Orangemen of Ireland against the Catholics. He (Mr. Reynolds) deeply regretted, however, that ho had written the letter alluded to, because, in his mind, it was totally unnecessary, and would raise a feeling of deep indignation against the Irish Government which it would be impossible to suppress. If it was intended to put down the repeal agitation it would fail—and as to other grievances, did the House believe 7,000,000 of Catholics would permit the existence of an Established Church which draws from them an income of 1,000,000/. a year to provide for the necessities of 700,000 members of that Church? For his (Mr. Reynold's) part, he should never be content while it exists, nor did he look upon himselt as an emancipated Irishman or Roman Catholic, while that monster grievance was permitted to continue. In his opinion, a man's clergyman ought to be paid by him, as he would his doctor or tailor. He believed, in addition, that all the evils of Ireland were mainly owing to the base conduct of Irish landlords, and but for whom, the calamities under which she now laboured would not be in existence. He denounced the present measure as an insult, inasmuch as when the country was quiet, a mea sure was brought forward for the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. Mr. THE LAWNY gave every credit to the Govern ment for preserving the peace of Ireland, but under all the circumstances, he certainly should vote against the grant about to be proposed, and support the passing of the measure then before the House. For his own part he attributed almost the whole of the evils of Ireland to a continuous increase of the population—(A laugh)— without making any provision fur them. He denounced the conduct of the Irish Members in coming down to that House night after night threatening the Government and the House, anti preventing the transaction of public business, and clam uring for grants of money for the Irish people. Viscount BERNARD could not refrain from paying the highest tribute of his admiration to the conduct of the Lurd Lieutenant of Ireland, for his zeal and promp titude in putting down the insurrection last July. He, as foreman of the grand jury of the county Cork, and cognizant of the state of the country at that period, should say, the rebellion then intended was not a " mock insurrection," as it had been termed. It it were put down, and if peace were restored, why were not the arms given up ? Why was not public confidence restored? It was not such mad attempts as that made at Ballingary, in August last, they had to fear —but cowardly attempts at assassination; and tor his own part :,e entirely coincided with the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland in his letter when he said that agitation was the bane of the country. He thanked the Government for their prompt measures in putting down disaffection, and they might rest assured of his support in carrying out such measures on every occasion. Mr. E. B. ROCHE deprecated the reasons given by the Members who supported the measure for the suspen sion of the Habeas Corpus Act. One Honourable Mem ber said it ought to be passed because the population was too much increased in Ireland; and the Noble Lord the Member for Bandon, gave as a reason why he sup ported it—that the Grand Jury of the county of Cork, of which he was foreman, were in a state of nervous excite ment last aummer. He (Mr. E. B. Roche) deeply regretted the course pursued in that House by the free-trade Mena hers. When those measures, of which they were the advocates and promoters, were discussed in that House, the Irish Members supported them on every occasion ; but when the liberties of Ireland were endangered, they took up their hats and walked out of the House. If Ireland was to be governed by military force, the people of England should pay for it ; but what he wished for was, that the peace of Ireland should be kept, cot by force, but on the eternal principles of justice. As long as they neglected to meet the difficulties of Ireland face to trice, she would be a mllstone round their necks, anti no c , crep,e measures, n R. 1, such ;15 the present, would ever C. store p. ace or prou.ote her p;•osperity. Sir W. SO ME ItV ILLE observed, that his Honourable IFelend, th, lieinb r for the eouoty of Cork, attempted to argue (At a grt-at question, involving the interests of Ireland, on what he cr.ited the quid .pro quo principle. He said that those Honourable Gentlemen who thought it their duty—and no doubt a painful duty it was, both to them and every other Honourable Member on that side of the House—to support the Bill, ought not to have done so, because as he and his Friends voted for free-trade measures, they expected them to oppose it. That was a line of argument which he (Sir William Somerville) should not presume to address to his Hon. Friend, because he knew and felt that in voting for free trade he did what he thought was good, and so did his lion. Friends who fell under his censure do the same, v‘ hen they supported the present measure. He had no doubt whatever but that they gave their votes according to their conscience. An iloN. A,I.ESIBER—They did not vote at all. Sir WM. SOMERVILLE—Who are they? Mr. B. OSBORNE—The Manchester school. Sir W. SOMERVILLE did 'not allude to the Man chester School, as they were called, but to those two hundred and odd Members who supported the Govern ment on the present occasion. His Hon. Friend the Member for Dublin laid particular stress on certain ex pressions in the letter of the Lord-Lieutenant, and argued that those expressions intimated an intention of using the powers about to be entrusted to him to put a stop to the Repeal agitation. That, however, was entirely a mistake. Did any man suppose that the Lord-Lieutenant would, in the present state of Ire lanzi, or indeed at any time, attempt to put a stop to agi tation peacefully carried on? Certainly that was not but intention. His object was to put an end to that specie* of agitation which had treasonable objects in view, and carried them out. in a treasonable manner.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") His Hon. Friend the Member for Limerick, was connected with a peaceful agitation for many years, without any detriment or injury to the public peace; and most assuredly it was not against such agitation those extraordinary porters were asked for, or would be put into execution. The object of the Lord- Lieuteintet was to obtain a vote of confidence by that i louse—to preserve the peace of Ireland. And, for his own part, he could assure Hun. Members that, it was au act of numauity to pa,s such a measure, in order to put a stop to proceedings of the must injurious descripti(in to the welfare of the peopli..— (Hear.) 'there never was A Lord Lieutenant in Ireland who had so much the confi• deuce of all parties—(llear, hear, and Oh, oh)—and every one who loved the liberties of his country would be pained by voting for this measure; but he, iu his con science, believed it to be absolutely necessary.—(Heat.) Lori CLAUDE HAMILTON said he thought that some h ood grounds should be stated to justify so severe and stringent a measure. It had been said that this should be looked upon as a vote of confidence in Lurd Claren don; but although that might be a good ground, he pre ferred to look at the merits. In the general admiration of Lord Clarendon's character and administration 11‘. 1 most cordially joined. lie had not been sparing day and night in phyjielil and intellectual tabour, under circum stances of the greatest danger and difficulty, and he be lieved that it was to the providential selection of that Noble Lord under Heaven that the peace of the country had been preserved.—(Hear, hear.) If his vote ill tavour of that measure should be regarded as a vote of confidence in Lord Clarendon, he had no objection that it should be looked upon in that light, although he gave . . his vote on the merits of the question. But in justice to the people of Ireland, he could not help saying that they had been taught and drilled into the injurious agitations, which they carried on very much by the suggestions and comments of that party who so loudly blamed the coercive Acts of the Hight Hon. Baronet lately in power, during his act• LLioistration. No sooner, however, had they succeeded than they applied still more stringent measures for its suppression. They come down to that House, not merely fur an Arms Bill, but for the power to proclaim whole counties. He hoped that party would now feel some remorse. He believed that Lord Clarendon had appreciated the quiet loyalty of the North. To him it was a painful necessity to vote in favour of this Bill, but he did hope that it would be the last time he would be celled upon to give a vote so exceptionable and so liable to abuse. Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL said, that there was one speech (Mr. Trelawny's) which was couched in the lan guage of a bully of the stews, which, as it h a d b e en . . couched in such language, he would pass by with the contempt which it must give rise to. The Right Hon. Baronet's speech (Sir W. Somerville)—at least mail parts of it—gave him great pleasure. He alluded es pecially to his observation, that the Lord-Lieutenant would not presume to interfere with any peaceful and constitutional agitation. It was not intended to sup press public opinion. The agitation, he said, to which this Bill was directed, was a treasonable agitation for treasonable objects. He would, in consequence, give a far less vexatious and violent opposition, although equally determined. He gave notice, that he would move that it be an instruction to the Committee to intro duce a clause or clauses into the Bill to secure the right of the subject to agitate, and to meet, and petition for the repeal of any existing law. A clause might easily be framed in that spirit. He had intended to read various documents relative to the association for the repeal of the union, of whose committee he was a member, to prove that the objects it sought to carry out were legiti mate ; but the pacific observations of the Right Hon. Baronet had rendered that unnecessary. He would merely read the titles of those documents. The Hon. Member here read the headings of some repeal papers, and said that they showed that the agitation carried on by the Repeal Association was peaceful, legal, and con stitutional. The next document would carry the House to the stormy period of last year, when in March last the Association issued an address declaring their allegiance to the Queen, and their obedience to the laws. The next document was a r e ply of the committee refusing the use of Conciliation Hall for the purpose of votilag au address to the people of France., The next document was an address to the people 0 1 Ireland, cautiuniug the people against the wild and den gerous doctrines which were promulgated abroad. The Hon. and Learned Member further referred to docw ments recording the efforts the Association had made in i support of order, and their refusal to coalesce with the parties who had unfortunately brought themselves within the operation of the law. After again referring to the declaration made by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sit Win. Somerville), he said he placed the most implicit faith in that declaration, because he knew the high per' sonal honour of that Right Hon. Baronet, and the high position which he occupied in the Government of Ire' land. He would not, therefore, farther refer to tilis matter, but should for a few moments address himself to some other considerations connected with the prese oS , measure. After alluding to the propo se d gran t c` 50,0001., and the opposition which he regretted was made to it on the part ot the free-traders, he would say tha t when certain Members opposed that grant on the grotto° us they alleged, of principle, he would now call upo n those Mt mbers to act upon principle with reference to this measure, and vote against it. Those who were opposed t i c ) this Bill resisted it not only in the interests of Irelane: but in the interests of England also; for they co u ld not tell what ill consequences would result from such legir lation. He would, therefore, implore Ministers to pause in the course they were pursuing. They had yet sis months of the session before them, and, if necessary, e day would suffice to pass such a Bill as the one now pro' posed into law. They should try a conciliatory co urse towards the people of Ireland. No people were mor e alive to kind treatment, and he implored Ministers not to set so unfortunate an example by the passing of such a law. Mr. lIUME said, if he was anxious to address th e House after the speech of the Hon. Member for Cori‘ (Mr. Roche), he was much more anxious to address i $ after the speech of the Honourable Member f or Limerick (Mr. John O'C o n ne ll). H e repu di ate d a', tack which had been made by the Hon. M em b er whoj . ile• sat down upon the free-trade party, and called attentio n to the fact, that the Hon. Member himself had expresse d himself satisfied with the present measure, meat's() it had been stated that its provisions could not aPP II to the association with which he was connected in Dublin.—(Cries of " No, no," from Mr. John O'Cotr nell) Why, the Hon. Member said he was so far cote tent with the explanation of the Hon. Baronet (Sir W I ; Somerville), that he would not trouble the House wit h the reading of the document he had brought with hi';', for that purpose.—(hear, hear. and cries of "No, 11°'d from Mr. John O'Connell). The Hon. Member ha , certainly afterwards said, that, notwithstanding the er o ceptien which had been made, he was still o pposed Si the Bill. Now he (Mr. Hume) had voted in f a vour % the all last session, and he voted for it on the groin that Ministers would base time to propose con ciliatel measures, and he would vote fer the measure noW v e i , the ground that as peace was at pres e nt ex i st i n g, A; t s nisters could not continue to occupy their p rese nt se"' , without bringing in those measur e s whi c h were nece „, ll , sary, and which the conditi,tn of Ireland needed• t it (Hear, hear.) He had heard it complained that O r the d.sturbances ceased in Irelued it could not be e d, petted that satisfactory measures would be introduce., Let the Hon. Member and those who acted with M e , boldly and fairly set about iuquirng what Ireland r o d quired.—(clear, hear.) He (Mr. liume) had again 13 01 again stated his opinions. He had again / b e again declared that Ireland 'aught to be governed bi, ,g , same laws and treated in every respect the same its,":lg land. The Government, he must say, s eeme d to sc''',..- from bringing in the measures that was n r cessarP e r, (Hear, hear.) When the p resen t ' Bill was, bow e s ° passed for six months longer, the Ministers would h e ce time given to them to prepare measures that would P t i, vent the necessity of continually suspending the o . e l ee tution in that country. Th ere was no suppor ter °t it to free-trade movem ent more a li ve t h an h e was bie33eglit the necessity of p ro p er reme d ia l measures b e i n g ht 9,i- , o o' in for Ireland, an d h e wou ld g i ve hi s support to the,,iste sent Bill, in the b e li e f th at no Mi n i ster wou ld be ' r e' to take that step which was imperatively called W oo d medying the evils under which Ireland In b° ,o' Upon such grounds only could the present ".- ec sure be demanded. But ho would ask, if gentl eill bort meant to commence their old trade of agitation, s ie long would it be before they would have disturba n c e : bet Ireland?—(Hear, hear.) Ho asked the Hon• ll,t the (Mr. J. O'Connell) to point out what he would d° at re' present moment if he were Minister? No c inti ner../' peal would be triumphant.—(" Hear, hear," from 7 09 pe; O'Connell.) But would that restore peace an d P o tosi ° rity to Ireland?—(Nlr. J. O'Connell—l wish you be fore, try it.) He (Mr. Hume) supported the Bill now out the House in order that her Majesty's Gel_ ares lot might have peace, and leisure to prepare mess, the future welfare of that eountry.—(Hear, hear.),d that Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL, in explanation, li ee_ l 9,3 the what he stated was that he was satisfied, so . l A ll ots explanation of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sit,' '', )2 ,,y be Somerville) went. It was to that extent 0 01 Y ' had expressed his satisfaction.