The Sun. — London, England, 1820-08-18 00:00:00

ety less firm, when onlooking Into the - history that' Bill, he found that in the Commons, where t .originated, it was Carried only by a maiority of 33 : aLid.so litti , e general was the conviction of its expediency, that when it came up to this House it was adopted only by a majority of '7. After referring in 3 cursory manner to, the case of the Bishop of Rochester, the Noble tall prop ceeded to say, that he looked upon all such Bills as unjust and odious. Theyruight, perhaps, be supported. with. some appearance of • reason, if times were tumultuous-4 they were tknes when great dangers. were apprehended. Jut. he would ask, was .danger to any one individual apprehended in the present cast Me belieVed not one instance would be shewn , . where' the. present case, : if not inquired into, , c(fuld produce, bad consequences. Their. Lord 4,ips. were 4ware, 'from the votes of the House of .Commons, of the conduct of 'that Douse, and of, his Majesty's ; Ministers in that II ouse.upon the present -proceedings. Those Ministers, so far from considering these proceedings Audis penceb le to.the public safety, on the contrary, znimit , :ed that if there was anv mode by which they could get out of the scrape, they were eager to adopt it. If, he looked into the particular cir cumstances of the would find, that, under '41;1 the itnpressions • which the public have on this occasion,. they feel strongly that they have no. interest in this Bill proceeding.—( hear, hear !)-- 7 -- ,t.he Noble • .Ear . l - ; ; opposite would rise in his place, and state some matte; of danger, which imposed a paramount necessity ttpon the.' Crown of proceedi4g. then indeed there might he some reason in the ,thing. But, neither the Noble: Earl not. any, Noble Peer, : lyopld place the support of the, Bill on. any such ground. , What then were the real circumstances of the case ?--Their Lord ships:hould .not forget the situation in which het', Majesty. was placed at the time when this Bill wus thought. necessary Many years preceding that time, from circurnstances.in which blame, pe.rhaps, was.pot imputable 'to any person, ditfer ences .hnd, arisen,..the result of 'Which W-as, that for: 26 , years and ,niore her : Majesty had ,been placed in a:. state of, exclusion not only from the society of her husband, but from the Court, and fronaevcry communication•with the,Royal In i nint 9f fact, she was plaCed in such a situa tion„ tit4t.if Ale had, been a private individual. no Bill of Divorce against her could receive :the co,untenance: of this.,flouse. SUCh' was her situar tion,thut-even if : she haderre,d, which, however, he by no means udmitted—hut even if ,she had , erred, she would.have erred under circlunstances tht, no individual, from: the:highest to the lowest person in the:land s could come to their Lordships and demand a ,Bill for separation from the tie of marriage. • : It .was.. afair question of: public po litiy,,whethec, 4atuitting. all the charges made aoinst .her,,,M,ajtsty to ,be true, which, however, he . admitted only: for•:the ! sake of the argu lialrtt, whether,. even. if they were. true to the ,greatest esitent,.. they had not been. in- curved Ands peculiar circumstances,' and he ther it would not ,'bane. been more conducive toithe public interests, if• the Ocean ; the Alps, autt,the A ppenines,,had been. allowed to stand as a veil het.kmen.those-defects and the public dis - - . Cl4Surt of them, which could have no other con sequetk(e,, than .tbat of, disturbing 'the national p Co,c.e,-iCiteerS.,)l,-S ch disclosures could only excite feelings which never ought to be excited LL-Wltichnever can be,,exCited..withOut danger to the. tate.„, ~When personslo the , ghost charac.: ter in.the country. were concerned!in those dis-; Os. the duty of the HoUse .to avoid anir,C.tittrse_that might lead to them.-- It was a cony e Calculated to ; divide interests that never otight.tobe .separated. It was a,course.which it wis.. , e,ijually the duty of the 'House, and the in- tereSt. of..the. ptplie . to .avert.---(Cries :of :hear,. hear !)--But even if this investigation were :to be proe& ed:in, it ought-not. to be pursued fin such a *tie as ,that_of n Hill of Pains and ,Penalties.. Thilt Biii,--insbead: of doing.,vdiat Ought.to.have beeddone,' instead-of setting out with stating the offence, as _it.ough( ty p have_been stated begins witic,stating - the; :promotion of a person -of.low ra to K. high.,Aue. : If 'this were an offence, he-/would ask„ was the line of distinction to.bo.drawn ?, Was . this the : -country, above all others, where 54cli distinctions were to, be. made, and where honours and titles were top be the ex-clu simpcivileges of the higher.orders ? 'Were there Petsong ; in.. This country. so promoted ? Ifud no: persons this •country----meritorious: persons he did not, dispitte-7-but had no 'persons in this, countrv..been . ,raised frontun humble:situation to one .Of conti4e3lce with the Sovereign beaz•Dr7Af that were the. case, Then he might be alla:wed.tousk,,whether the charge. upon the sub ject of .promotion retained in this BilVwas one of any, ConseqUenco',!,.- Another charge was introduced as.„ a ,linct of a make-weight---he meant_ that of . Orders and Sicilian , Baronies, and;Alecorations, ..and then the Bill „ came to -the . main charge—that of adultery.- ; But as .ifi. the, _framers of the. Bill upon cow, ing "toi.thiS. partopf it. had shrunk. from this, they did-every thing in ,Their power to render- it difficalt_to he understood. If by that term they meant any thing.else than what it was generally uuderstood,to theani.he, Ivould usk the Ministers of Religion,he would ask any Peoin the House, whether such .a charge, if proved, ~ could be fol lowed by divorce, according to„ ,the laws of this country ? For his part, he 'protested against the useof expressions which did not convey the real meaning. The charge, whatever it was, „should have been digtinctly, and directly made,; thus her MajeStY would .know .what the charges against her were, and she would, be prepared to meet them . • But even if the charges were directly made, and even if they could be proved, still it was to be recollected that the public interest was no way concerned in going into them. If her Majesty erred,. they were notaltngether free from responsibility, whose Councils drove her. into such 'error. As. to the question of innocence or, guilt,' he had not delivered,,nor had he the means of -delivering any . opinion.;..but this he knew,,that there was a strong feeling in the public. mind. that this proceeding could lead to no public good • Irlatever.-- 7 --(lYear, hear flte address of House of Commons, it ,was stated that, it waS' a proceeding " injurious toAlt . e.best i „ interests of ette . country." So 'it WAS: felf,tot ottli thae llouse, , but gentally by ttie 4.lilic;4o: 6 that too from utOtives;, for J hardly-b4eved , -o'lo, any private motive inthienced any party. Ile object , ed, she re fore Dte....,lllll,...,gsatualy,and to _the motion immediately before theiF, Lordships, Earl GREY began, by stating the reluctance with which he entered upon _such a sohje,c(as that.now before their Lordships, and expressed the pain which he felt in voting with the majority against the 'motion - of iliSoble Friend near him-L-(t11 . 0 Duke of Leiniter). He -was glad, however, that:an opportunity was now presented to him of aplaining the vote ,which he had given with . so much painful feeling.. When: Kis Noble Friend. Ole Earl of Concannon) stated ob jections to:BillS of this kind - generally, he (Lord , Grey) acceded-to all those objections. But the motion of his . -Ncible Friend for rescinding the order of the day,,.had- taken him by surprise'. I t was amotion for neither- morel nor less than re scinding all the ,proceedings which their Lord ,ships had hitherto adopted, and that, too, with out the 'assignment of an y -reason. Under these cireumstances,- it was impossible for him to ac quiesce in a 'motion •so contradictory to .all their former proceedings . ; and it was for this reason that he-had voted-in a majority on that occasion. 'Mien his Noble Friend- who spoke:last hadsaid, that all :Bills of Pains and Penalties, as cx post jack) laws,-. were - inconsistent with the general rules of British justice, to that declaration he fully subscribed. But - still he would . maintain that principle of Parliamentary law, that on all extraordinary occasions where a great State tie:: cessity 'existed, Parliament • was_ vested with ex traordinary powers, and it was the duty of Par liament to apply those PoWerS when thatneeessity existed. But unleSS that necessity. was. shown, the objections to the exercise of :.such powers were well founded, and here he couresSed, he found considerable difficulty. ilis Noble Friend had asked, what advantage could be expected from the present , proceeding, and urged, that instead of advantage, nothing but mischief could How from it. If their Lordships": were •now arguing before any proCeedings were adopted, such ob jections ought to have all their. force. If 14 (Earl Grey) were an adviser.of- the Crown, un-_ doubtedly lie would—(Somme:-of the -Ministers , here expressed dissent.) -L-The .Noble Earl pro= Ceeded: He did not wish to infer any thingfrom . the propositions of the Noble - Lord, which they did. not warrant. But he 'Understood , that they' had offered her Majesty 50,0001. a-year, provided she remained•abroad, • and that they would have her legal character as Queen recognised in sonic Foreign Court - which she • might select. This statement he believed to be substantially correct.. bidoubtedly,. therefore, a plori, it must be granted,, that where so much was admitted, it was strange,. that the single circumstance of -her Majesty's• return to EnTland, produced the neces ,slty of the present Bill. Still this was an argu ment pirsOnal to time Ministers. But their 11, 9r .d.:, ships had furthOi to, cooidvr tl,mc siwation in. which they stood. lyhat was that situation ? A was made against the Queen of Eng . land, which, • if proved,. undoubtedly ~should. be : followed by every degradation which this Bill .proposed. 'lle said, if it could be proved,. for, as yet, he knew not whether it could or not. Uptin that 'question it , was, that he attended hereto do . his duty.. No earthly interest-Lno bias whatever would Preventh im from performing that duty .—(Cheers from theTreasury' Beneh.)— lle .was determined neither to support the cause of the peoples nor the cause of the Queen, as such, but he would deal *partial justice.to all parties.- 7 -(Cheers !)-- L -The Parliament then stood In this situation. Charges were, laid, against the Queen, which, if proved, rendered, her unworthy of the high station that 110 W belonged to her.— :(Ilear, ,- hear !)—They had this •alternatire, by whose .misconduct, .he knew not, —but they had this alternative before them, either to proceed with -inquiries,,into, the charges that had been :made,.. - whichif substantiated, : necessarily would bring- degradation, on her character, -or . els e , w ith these charges so made,_ to abandon all inquiry— to raise her to the, eminent rank of ,9ueen of these realms, with those important 4arges unheard. 4 and undecided.. When Such an,alternative was plaCed befOre them,, he 'thought, :that his Noble Friend would have brought very grave matter indeed, ' under" heir Lordships'. notice, before he, propoSed . to stop all further iavestigation: , Without time prodUction of such . ,matters•he 'could, not abandon what he deethed th be his duty, - nor would he. shrink from itearing the whole of the charge.-7- The'Only question' then,before ,Lordships wan, this whether that charge should -be proceed ed upon ~by a Bill of. Pains and Penalties. On. this point'he must say, he felt very great doubt., if e felt strongly the general objections to the Bill, and he thought it must be admitted if there were no other course of proceeding known to time law, that the course now proposed was a lit and ne cessary course.. But. before he admitted, that he must be satisfied, in his own mind, that there is in truth no other course. In the first s place it was saidi that her Majesty could not be prosecuted, because the charge against her did not amount to High Treason.. 'lie certainly felt greatdiffidenco in expressing an opinion contrarY„ or rather. doubt of an opinion delivered 'by so high ap, au thority as the Noble and. Learned Lord on the Woolsack, particularly as that opinion had been pronounced so decidedly. If lie (Earl Grey) understood the Noble and Learned Lord rightly, he first expressed a doubt of the correctness.- of the generally received construction of the Statute of Edward 111. but he had no doubt—that even if, time received.construction were true,.by which construction the two parties, the PrinCipal and the Queen, were -considered equally criminal — that :if that construction were true, still, .as the crime charged was said to be committed abroad, and with a foreigner owing no allegiance to this country,. he, was'exempted from the penalty, and by consequence 'she could not be charged as an accessary. When he heard the Noble and j Learned Lord state that lie had VOA h long life, tl.r~ early part -of it in the study and the latter part - TA it in the 4titriinistraticmoiAlnr-law--when .he heard the NOble and Learned - Ldrd asith ill "his . acuteness ;and intelligence,: with a mind not disposed todii ki t rawidlyotate .that lio.,:hati ac-t •quiehN.:aq • ' Opinion V All t, •.zriters'UPqn t k :tEe" , :stibject ra ni IN fttre*co. - 04& . qkts i tt i at, 4 4: he,mpst be alloveed ,to, place the • previous calm 'opinions .of the Noble and Learned Lord in op psi tion. la Aoubt : which- WaS-- SO -Slitl4l4y -4nd so retentlysuggested.- Besides, the .Noble ,end and Learned Lord expressed no 'more than a doubt, as ,to ; the construction of the -Statuto, -and 111 this state of the case it became their Lord phips in . the first - place, to satisfy th e ms e lves , Whe'-: her.his Lerdship'sieciiStruction , of the: law . was sound or not. He was sure it was-unnecessary to I • state •to their Lordships that every-writer On"thiS" question, Lerd,Coke, Sir, M. 'Tale, Serjeant Haw kins, anti' Blackstone, all Concurred in the opinion , that both the parties in such'an adultery, - where, the Queen-was , consenting, were equally guilty. the Noble Earl 'proceeded Upon this 'basis to argue, that : if, both were equally- guiltY., it was not necessary,-in order to. support , the prosecu tion of one; that bothShould . be proceeded against. lie tgreed with his Noble Friend that the charge against - 'ter" Majesty "should' be - dearly pointed out ; and that in ;the way •of evidence nbthing . should satisfy their Lordships short of the clear est, the most overwhelming, the most irresistible Protilef adulter)%—(Cheerg..)—No general charie could -justify 'thetri in finding her guilty: It should be -sustained by the most positive evidence, and by witnesses superior to all suspicion. •' But before - they 'proceeded to hear evidence, he wish; ed, as they had properly required the attendance Of the Learned Judges, that the'question should be : pet .to theni, Witethe'y, supposing such a case ef adtiltery to have occurred, iccame within the t Statute of Edward . 111. The Not& Lord:then proceeded to contemi,:that if the Learned Judges Should answer•in thetiflirtnative, then it was com petent. 'to the Government to prOceed against her Majesty alone. The Noble Earl- adduced - sere.; ral arguments in- favOur of ' his proposition.—His object: was;( that . the present proceedings should lie quashed, and proCeedings taken, de itovo, un del':thOpitatate of Edward the Third. Not that ile'AVished.to,. subject her' Majesty to thettlanger of suffering' the penalties of that Statuteovhich were-al•varianee with•the humane-spirit of - -the `times. These penalties,.he would•prdpose tore: .peal, as to the present case;, and he would give her Majestyitll the benefits of .a Bill under the Statute, one,,of which would be, that she should have a list of the witnesses. But if, after all, no proceeding, was found pOgsible but that by Bill of Pains alnkl'enalties,. he would then feel it his duty, however painful, to act judicially, being firmly persuaded that .substantial justice . would lie done to all parties by their tOrdships. Of this he felt persuaded, for' he would not counte nance those chargos which had been made ap-,ainst their Lordships" administrattota, of justice,-- , - (Hear !)---.Though he' believecl;fliat tikek :Lord ships were 6opietinies wistaken in poiititgi yOt he did not believe that thq-Aiotild ever',-rdule!to do justice. He.said i thus,,ronni4,as- he' did'ziot wish to give any encottrageinetit to-such chargdaS were made-, believing.that In every case pure sub stantial-Justice would be administered.nt "their Lordships' , hands.4—(hlear !)—But if they, pro ceeded;withOut satisfying the doubts which he felt, he would , Support the motion of his Noble Friend. • . The, Loan Cna.:;cELi-on.explained his opinion on the law of Ahe question. The point was this ; supposing the, crime to 'have bevA:coinmitted by,lter Majesty abroad with . a , foreigner,' owing no allegiance to this country, did that amount to high treason in her Majesty ? lie 'all;iwel'ed No. :She • could only 'be guilty - 'of tonSenting 'tii - a crime. But no crime wasicommitted, because a foreigner could not commit such a crime against , this country ; and' it followed,, that her Majesty, even supposing she consented, could -not be said . fie law to have 'conmaitted an act which,. by the statute of tiWard,,could be construed high trea son. It •was -not. a violation of the Queen. or: of :the wife'Of the eldest son: of King within the meaning of that statute. i: ;. , . The tad of. LEVER.POOL admitted thatmothing could be more fair - or ,Candid than the whole statement of the Noble Earl who had spoken last but one. He concurred perfectly in the sentiment which he had introduced - at the doge of his speech. If the question was tried at the bar, as he iioned it would bs i lie was sure drat e Lord would .lesl 414. he, was sitytteit'ity g i :N u al a )le jUdicial capacity and on .a with which no political bias hatsoever e 'Pei-Milted to interfere. For his own Part fie sho u ld feel that n o one how ever closely connect e d w i t h hi m, s h ou ld should ea - b be bound to consider any other interest in the question than that which he,owe - d . to his own , conscience, as a Per and; as a characterthe Noble Lord (Caspar mde .4tieli objections as he- had stated that day, was beforeAhe second readii*. of tin. Bill had' been fixed. "TrAtad'sited„ . that the Bill ought to be got rid of altoetber. The pre sent was not' the time to review the conduct of w his Majt sty' s C overnnnt,. hnt hen the time arrived he should feel no ditli.sgkty iii %indicating the course pursued by himsp - iiiid his colleagues. The question now Iras," j vi'hat - was bet to be done with a view to the public tranquillity,. to their duty towards the Illustrious Individual, and to wards the country at large ? lle assMned, for the sake of argument, that the charges were true, and that they could be proved ; but 1u had never attempted to conceal that, even with that assump tion, it would be better to have avoided any pro ceeding, if that could be done. In his opinion it might have been avoided had her Majesty remain ed abroad, but he felt no shame in acknowledging, that from the moment she came to this ,Country, hegave up that opinion. On, the arrival of her Majesty in England, Government must ha\ e done one of two things- 7 -either they mus t have acknowledged her , as Queeu, with all the 'rights and privileges of her situation, or they must have entereti Mollie qiiestloti how before the lionse Under these circumstances the Bill' was brought in, and that day Was fixed for the second reading, in order to afford an opporkunity for hearing, ( counsel and evide ce in favba. and' • ainst it... If they • Id e art see their 4i to ' Mother 7- x ti o deeds, .N' I . C. VS , ra i „ thef, 4 l Ah II teatlr 2 w , • ad 1 1 / 4 ; tit, nle* that Was the ease, he wou d submit that no good purpose could be atiswered.lliintirtupting'd PO' .ceeding- which-promised the most speedy terrdi'' oation, and was in every . respect adequate to the ittis of impartial justice,. He was not disposed to.ditferfrem either of the Noble Earls as, to heir, opinions respecting Bills of - Pains and - Pei naltieS: - - INhere could be Clear - course Of trial, - it - it - Mild be - preferable 'to such - proceedings; but, it - there - 'was'atty thing in 'the legal' argunieht, all proceedingginight be destroyed by a' mere - tech- , niitil-ajectimi.• -The' preient was, tattler all the circumstances, the fit course to adopt. There wasical fiet,- only that- and impeachment, add this difficulty presented itself in the latter course, that,. if, adultery •was not a high crime and mss'' demeanour by the law of the land, an impeach -. mentecould .not. he conducted; Suppose, then, than question-was referreetto the Judges - 4 and that the answer of those learned.persons denied it to belthigh crime and-misdemeanour ; it was true that their Lordships might,as in the-case-of Dr. Sad cheverel, decide against theopinien of the Judges but still the ease - must be prejudiced in soate mew' . I sure by that opinion.' Every oneof the argument; which. had. been used against the mode of pro ceeding in general would - apply to every case of divorce that was-brought before their Lordships. , In all those cases what had they done ?• There had unfortunat e ly been cases ihwhich the wives of ,Members of that house had been dirorcA and- had . thereby lost their-rank and privileges ? ; What had their . . Lordships" done in those CaSt‘s Had they not degraded the wives ? Had. thief not inflicted a's7great - m7 - pcmishment; - alloirance being made for . - the imparity , of, the situation of the. Queen and of those ladies, as it teas DOW pro' - posed t o inflict ?• - Inthose cases, indeedohe, House demanded the fullest proof of fact - 0 ( adultery, and in thivcase. he er trusted they would • not proceed to pass- th. Bill. without equitil-1 strong 'proof, Was not every DivorCe Bill ea ex post facto law ? It was not the . laW of the Land/ that a, woman should be divorced even for-adel" tery'; for though the:Ecclesiastical Courts could' pronounce a separation bf the - Parties,it.iyfts ndt' ln fact a divorce from the tie Of matrimony'. What then, was: every 'Bill of Divorce, hut in spine, degree-a. contravention of the law of the land What was it but punishment inflicted for an act which the law did:not expressly declare to be criminal ?- Yet the House did pass such, Bills,, looking always to -the evidence, and thi s, Bill also thepwould•not pass; except on sufficien t Eividence. He did not mean . to say that there u -35 not a great difference between ordinary Divorce Bills and this Bill. But not as to this qtiestion ;. indeed his __ argument was strengthened by difference.- The present Bill. had la ptib'ic ch,V mt( r ti a liall e t.dti t d i t r ui la ; leili, i sE t il l: I: F r : goy . lan t i s ns o i was-n o t -on arguments ) account hiepiceaoo.stsisrltetrodti injury err i i i : : ,: j h u itst r .oo, y . rtti t h. t(i)..:str if tit,tiilr:t;:: would say that they would 'degrade One ''ivelii' dual fot - the - sak - ti•Of tinother. - hliw snitch tti. r' .l ; titer should they do:it 'for th'sake of the State • If the .queStion were, however, - tuerelv to - 1.4 rt'' ferred to the Judges- for the sitiSfaction of th l House, - as to the'regularity' of its proceedings./ l' e should have no objection to it, norshouldhe Icts c the least delicacy as to retracing was . thought that another m0de....0f prticeedit were more constitutional. But he should obje c to it if it was intended merely tOttelay - or SIP' Pend the measure. • his • steps if i x The Marquis of LANSDOWN begged leave t' l state : his reasons for acquiescing in - the course re, commended by his Noble Friend (Earl G'o,:o' —lVith respect to the geneiat nature of :the }P-:' ° ' ceeding recommended .by Ministers, he .c 0.11 1: not go the _length' of. affirming, :though hekne; . . • many- persons in and out'of' the llonseaffirmil that in no . case whatever should Bills of . 1- ' 8 '" 0: and Penalties-be introduced into or attempted .le., be' passed through Parliament. With ill 1 1 , . inconveeieuces and. hardships attaching to see!: ; measures, the extent of which he was as well awa' t of - as—wry of -- thernii he felt - cottscientieusly.,th - o `f , the house could net safely . ,ghee" up ,the pol,i:e,z; ' introducing' such -Bills; that iii- to -deinglth e, ;. 1 ,, inight give ,up . 4privilege whielf„ in eal itft ' l .: , 1 - sa fes ' ytne4,:might be matte the foundation of tne. t '; . and- happiness of the State. It - was a Pc'., : which he felt it his"ditty - to defend and prOcell:, convinced that in. some, conjunctures it might...mot, directed to the preservation of the country p.-: ,,d it was for their Lordships, tO'cOnsider thelerd.' • r , . - ded f° . upon which such Bills were' recommen , ~, their 'adoption. lie wished the house t° r f.,.; collect, the ground on . which this Bill' had 1 ;;;; recommended to• them, and on w hich di ci , they had .eotertained it. The Bill it 'd 1) 0 , 1 4 received ow the allegation .of the Noble ,eO, opposite, ' and ; of . 1113 Majesty's "Athli Sr tbe r OD. their responsibility,' that the.re was PP T wo way of visiting the -clime. alleged to have 4 to , committed, and. which public justice' oug ht visit.. It was on this 'ground alone . that y o ' f. . Lordships had received the present Bill and O,, k ft e •r i e l d o i il t t t o he lle in o e n as t u h l e ,e i s r t a ble. i)repa duction •of this Bill , which had excited 0 ~_ • d Wl ' ' ' ' prejudice throughout the country, an tie o d , ~ . • • rrejudice, as he feared, still existed. . 11 wa s. not objected to it, 'as it was said the C 1-. °' v g o to y driven to the necessity of having. rec° ll o ae ralti(enttiobtelft°ereidstoPrcl; -such a measure, and that nothing else w" thol e -swerthe purpose. - Haying this Bill.bef are with' they were.now about to proceed to cealP.!Y:,:i l ito a former Order of the House, and to iniqu' r 1.3 e -; the evidence that , was to sapport• the chl e. ri i s ter' • fore the Bill went to a s e c on d reading - 1) 1 o' . 'he r were' botthd • seriously to consider. Nvnet the o e-- furnished th e . ',O n lV means by' which ' Vie ' pet in view could be accomp 1 . lied A t ode J question proposer hy'his Noble Frien";o for II to enable the - . Ouse to f or m au optu,o