The Sun. — London, England, 1849-07-20 00:00:00

TR ni ru aide the ties Of House, tell hi m hi s mo ti on w as very tha"‘.... he perfectly agreed in it, but he ►could not go iino ° same lobby as the Hon. l'sleinl:er fur the West Riding. glffsatiras ter. * ) Another Hon. Gentlemen on the other ri e l ; a good Radical reformer, said the motion was quite t t g ea t— be . a . greed in every word of it—but svlie.n he saw __ eet with the support of the Conservative party it ZakB,:pos.sibl.e for him to vote for it. Now, he would the as it right to play with the great intere ts of country in such a manner ?—(Hear, hear.) Inde• Pendent M embers had now more power, because it had beat found that a small compact body could always di , t; detail a much larger one. They all knew what qeeereat s „ speeches they would hear from Honourable t eet - ' l, 7raen on the other side of the House on that sub heeabeere the Conservative party seated on the Tr ,, easu e r r y o iezt benches hear.) Their eloquent tonguA _ wi th 11°w—they keep the topic for a time to be used iise itPower upon simple. people when the Whigs may greste: s d re tre n ch rianseerstetnc.t' than there - o s itZsieo n. i .a - a: om. i p o n o wg sett barren y haed o ry t eo h e c ‘av r tac b ss o d ne . o s t: Of n ien . an existed among b doing ; they might very well discuss the est . mode . cf s gentl e ll thi ng, but amidst tie it differences an ingenious ris oth e lrta might very well play off one again . ea se. er e and think he had given an answer to the of the story But the short and the IoU shall not h v ras, that that House had to say, You sat -- ''' v so ch money." No doubt th, , q ,„ ', would not arse to rest upen assertion on such a 11; s "" ; therefor e he was prep:red with authority. avoid auxioesly desired, on that °cession, ho either infienreatory to ti on he knew full well there existed a greater es i ecta or exaggerated laegiregan th e n of reli e f to be derived from retr lichment amongst 0 e Mile than thee° sees any fonad.tioa for. More tiZ, Pubic thought that the whole amount of texa levie . '' . „ s c e r oplen ly wasted f ro „, „ the country a as e ~, aa the resources of the country its if suell an amount Isr! thrown into the sea. But that was not the tact. digartsrer the amount of texation, a great portion of it rte into the coat • •again. There existed it I,r) • h tle a c psitY for exaggeration up ni the subject. All they 1 ex ces t : Show was that the amount of taxation was in 1 d id , end thit the mode of levying it was unjust. ll , e ,esAnclaraTt•sretraeatinont° apply his i th equ ; sl , ity ohservatiena to the Tres: a More than t , ) any other, but to show the of taxation. Take, for example, the duty on b e e . h irlest priced printed cottons—it was 10 per cent.; ,s' on the very commonest kiud, which was worn by the t e n t! poorest class, it was 50 per cent. H-s would be ha not that that duty was repealed I—yes, but they . ....,i -hid einArepealed the principle on which the tax was See ;i itgain the des- on leather was calculated by sh i rt Now, every . one knew that a countryman'. is es Weighed mere than 100 . pairs of those worn by a Ce nt, -- (llear, hear.) ce rn On wane the duty was 100 per ,. i ,beer of the people it f, rl t• Stamp r d probate he would not waste the fac t o t: thos House b touching on. But it was the y t blishments of the country, of , ' that the whole t T 1 ( 1 4 1 kind and would pitched t c o h d e d d a ~..70t i t n o o confirmation high a rate. of ; ii. first evidencefrom the journal which was the organ ‘ ll the late li e 3 Administration—viz the Quarterly nevicw, Ithi e h s lid:—" If we are to keep ' our place (as a nation), . i t t is indispensably necessary that every incumbrinco should be removr d, as well by individuals as by the Go vernment.e Every branch of the administration must be ettritied ry department must submit to examination 4 2 4 - . m o st ancient of our institutions ought and could no t en ger support the burden of places or proceedings that - t a i a possibly be dispensed a ith. No branch of those in ltil-tutihns ought to be touched that can be left alone; still to Is an ire so altered P. erative necessity to submit many of them exl , ion sad reduction." 11 . 0 hegieved that to bylae 1:,,,, e t1Y the state of the case, and unless that house, 1 ,74' strong resolution, compelled, if necessary, or w'irrigthened the hands of the Government, if they , were m li ng to make those changes which were necessary — t atter% must become worse. He was further strength ;l:oe'lerit,4eheoyntraending the alterations and the reductions a passage in a dispatch which had lately tnoed,t presented to the Howe—a dispatch from Lord Elgin metnadeedSaecdreetdatir,:ytifor the Colonies—in which he recora tount of the on upon all salaries above 1001., on ac btheeapoPUlati,,reVenue being below the expenditure and e a 4 ill a state of distress. That ho held to I D I t ni, es ""aaton of the step he recommended. The case rs.c.ountry was quite in an analogous state. Lord Gre y thate dtd not assent to the proposition when made in claring G '' l °°Y, but he did in another; for he found Lord rey d e in th e 6 that there should be a complete revision tss e nancial condition of Jamaica. Ia Guiana, when Port Was a threat of a stoppage of the supplies, a re tioußeas "'lade on the subject by a Committee of the be e , Land, if he remembered rightly, that report had thi ng, u t r h awn up taxatioatio by Sir Robert Peel) The next of to onion--that that he desired was an alteration in the mode rt—that was by relieving the poor, and making tiev, ti r l t ,_ Press more severely on the rich. To that the girded f'tg that he had at heart, and that which he re res o us,pf most consequence, was to take some mea- Th at was,rutaliniihing the burden of the national debt. measures he said, the great point, and, among other a g ,, ic ,.,s, was this, gentlemen talked of the recovery of ti kles a l;are- It w as quite true that they could raise five c i s * the amount that they now did of consumable arti tdisofoul of the land— (Hear)—there could be no doubt at th at th /n e at i hut, at the same time, no one could doubt val ue 0" '?...-Peniliture of capital would be greater than the th en 114 1 .. the preduce when it was raised. The only way t erest t ' o 3' ecadd give relief was to lower the rate of in ill such en ext t ; tcapital might be employed P rod „ e ... , , la tea. Ul m 1,71,e industry, where it was now employed in slow conclude " 1 'h was non- prod uctive.—(llnar.) 11 e would thew tl ., with reading a passage from Burke, to desir e d e ne e"sity of supporting a Government when it n ow to be enabled to carry such a resolution as ha t ier Areposed into effect. Instead, then, of attaching in ensr ft sl's-tY's Mini s t ers, h e w i she d to encourage them ser er ' v °r llug the re so l ut i on w hi c h h e now di I , an d t h e co übtry. cement of whi c h h e b e li eve d to b e necessary f or t hi s The 0 th,t LIANcELLort of the EXCHEQUER observed the II on. ~. on. Gentleman, in bringing forward this Up o , ' 4 , , old net desire it to be understood as a censure Go; the conduct of her iSlajesty's Government. The tiesi: rn mant, during the last two years, had proved its d uer e to enforc e e conomy , b y carry i ng into effect re ftitle l ' un l i as far as it wa s p oss ibl e t o e ff ec t th em with a a it regard to the efficiency of the public service, and eel her than th at h e Was sure the Hon. Gentleman him• 1 1 ` Would not desire to carry them.—(Hear.) The ~:1- Gen t l eman had spoken of his desire to lower the rite of duti es i mpose d upon art i cles of consumption by ts e Poorer c l asses; h e h a d com pl a i ne d t h at , compar i ng Z ,e price of these articles with th e d u ti es , i t was hi g h er i it all the duty upon articles of a high er p r i ce . Th e sub :et was one that had been much discussed, whether it - as better to have. an ad valorem duty or a fixed and tendency of all legislation was to get r , i a lito duty. The ten 'of an ad valorem duty, and to o ti is d lid as tending to that lasses. Ia several promote the introduction into consumption of articles at were used even by the poorer c - . . . nted to in illBtailees where Committees had been appoi, ese er __, y quire I mo thesubject of ad valorem duties, they had Which'". recommended a low rate and fixed duty as that trl u e e ree i f was the most beneficial to the trade and com t ~e r n. thia c oantry.—(l-lear, hear.) The Honourable tak e e - t --"I 1 11 ' 44 17 ,er; said that it would be desirable to but th a e x l -a l t e ie - c)- or rho mode of doi n. Gentlemau the Poor and impose it upon the rich ; didnot tell them of the process that the wl. 1 s hosaid— fewng that. This, however, „ e years had been in that direction Hardly ever was .e e 'Qiidene Y of their leislation for the last : -11 _re a period in w so an amount of taxation h ad been taken off techgreen larg e body of the people , and its Per tthinaand bettyel e h n T t I t i fi e x y e e s a rs 184 e i r upon ' )l and 1849. The re fvs etion of taxation - come sad upon pro duction in that time upon the raw materials 0 e Inaullfacytuorerstahnd upon articles of consumption by then g r eat bed repealed; and th VlOO,OOO/. SucheareePle' amounted to no less the.n ryas the amount of taxes reduced or or t axes inl coed e deficiency thus created was made up pity, Tha r t 'e w ' a upon the richer classes of the comma tsended• The sthe course the Hon. Gentleman recom which the articles,axes used by the poor were these on su m „ a 0 rntide had been reduced or repealed, and the lbed as the he Perseus who ISP by taxes upon the 400,000 or 500,000 clesee P ai d tile income tax, and who might be 'unless the classes of the community. Now, they 5' doubled the • wer e t o ..... lneonae-tax, he did not see ow aid e ib Ila n , Gentieer f urther in the course proposed by the diminish the n Gentleman s (Hear, hear.) But then the Hon. would deb«, Gentlemen . at it was indispensable to pay off or Lon. Gentlem glut how was it to be done? cl not sell their stock to nothing. The but this he re au might be a better financier than be was able to discoverii'tthsaY, that he himself had never yet been thing without the e merle by which he could buy any f public were toemeey to pay for it.—(Laughter.) I stock, it would he put money into his pockets to . buy up heavy terrns—thatimpossible to do so without laying on o that he told the H is, to create a sinking fund; and t an said that the Hon. Gentleman producing power of be made five times ereater than it this country might consid'erable capital. ve l a i s e ; but to do so would require rxoc. quer) did look forward (the Chancellor .. of the . of h . pital on the land, so to a judicious expenditure en s m eeting the demands ofas to render it more capable of Hon.consumers; but to do that, the Gentleman said there rate of interest. The f must be a lowering of ill© been low enough in rate e interest, they all knew, had it had been most thisdisastrous oeue s untry, and the consequence of d pedulations. He had hear numerous complaints in the had for 1 per ent, and City that money might be of England and other even now, looking at the Bank be no lack of oitalquaaraters, there seemed to him to to a lowering oft he rnd* the tendency even now was quotations of the Shave MiaeralreY rate of interest. The in railroads were ?isle., in dt showed that the shares tendency to a lower rate P o r f icz. t and that there was a But then it might be said thet ntheeret*—(Hear, heir.) to reduce its expenditure. Well, Governmentic ought so. An Hon. Friend behind him said t?'), had hewn doing so enough. Now he said that, not a the y had not done ago, the Government was not able to year a a l ri and a half mends made upon it from the manuracturiea t the de protect the lives and properties of those dwelling ' to those ma nu f ac t ur i ng t owns. —(H ear, hear.) Islov r v i th l y u had made in th e p resen t y ear a re d uction in the army to the num b er o f 1 0,000 men, and a majority of that House had decided that the reduction had been carried far enough. There had been a reducti on o f 3,000 men in the navy, and the opinion of the House was, that these two reductions had been carried sufficiently tar, Within the two years the amount of reduction in the estimates was 2,360,0001, and when such was the m e , he did not think that they were open fairly t o the charge of being indisposed to make a reduction in the expenditure of the country. On this point too a ma jority of the House had concurred with the Govern ment in declaring that it would not be advisable that the reductions should he carried farther than they had been. One Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Hen ley) had proposed a reduction of salaries ; and he knew that a l arge m i nority of that House had voted for 4 general reduction of salaries. Ile know also that no take the years ISIS and go to 1830, and to consider the proceedings of the Governments, the old Tory Govern ments of those days—Conservatives were not discovered at that time. In 1830 the House saw two remarkable events—a Government with an overflowing Exchsqeee, and the Whigs with a majority on a motion for economy. The Duke of Wellington's Administration in 1830 was dis placed, and it wan a very remarkable event, as it bore upon an observation made by the lion. Member for Mentrosc that evening—it was displaced on a motion made by Sir 11. Parnell on the civil list of that day, and it was a curious circumstance connected with that vote and the subsequent proceedings of the Wbig Ad ministration, that although by that motion they voted that the Government of that day was extravagant in a civil list of 900,000/., having got a majority and turned out the Government:, they within a few months brought in the same identical civil list with a diminution of only 5 000/, and the only distinction was that part of it wes made a permanent charge which was before granted only for the life of the Sovereign. That was the proceeding of a Whig Administration upon that occasion. Now, he did accuse the Government of extravagance; for from that tear to the present they had been increasing the expenditure. At that time there was very nearly 3.00,000/. over the expendieure. That heel never been seen during the Administration of Honourable Gentlemen opposite [the Honourable Member was speak ing from the Opposition side of the House]; but, on the contrary, from that time every one of our institutions had been inert acing in its extravagance. At that time the whole expenditure of the country was 49,000,000/. Last year it was 57.009.000/. And yet the Chuncellor of the Exchequer considered this motion es a charge against the Government. It was a charge against them. Ile understood it as a charge against them, and upon that ground he would vote for it. Could it be said that an ordinary private man, when he found his daily exFenditure growing from year to year beyond his means of payment, did not look to his iecome and ask himself what he could do to meet the expense absolutely neces sary for his concern ? Was this country in a position to go on as it had of late years? It would not do at that time to tell them that the Government had been ef fecting savings, ea some of their simple friends had been suggesting; on the contrary, the country felt that day after day, mid year after year, the expenditure of the ' country bad been increasing, and with obviously no ne cessity for any such increase. He knew it had often been said that Earope was in a dangerous state, and that a large expenditure was necessary for the purpose of warding off danger, and that therefore we must retain an immense war establishment. Now, what rational ground was there for any such assertion? He would take upon himself to say that never sinco England was a kingdom had she been in such a situation of such perfect security as at the present moment. The main was to her a tower of strength, and even if any danger were to he apprehended from,the hostility of Continental powers, their present distractions were to this country a source of additional security. It was, therefore, an idle pretence, a purely fantastic idea, to talk of the dangers by which they were surrounded, as a pretence for augmenting the public expenditure. What had this country to do with the causes of distraction which dis turbed the continent? The business with which Parha m:lit ought then to occupy itself was not foreign affairs, hut the most effectual and judicious mode of cutting down the public expenditure. They had a very expen sive amusement in the nautical evolutions of the Gallant Admiral who had formerly made some evolutions in that House. What was the use of having that Gallant Ad miral with a large fleet wandering about the narrow seas and doing nothing, sometimes going to Lisbon and firing off a little gunpowder? The people of England were really behaving like persons who knew net how to teke care of their money; according to the old phrase, as if it were " burning a hole in their pockets;" as if they had not a sufficient pauper population to take care of. Then there was Ireland. They were obliged to pay her from day to day, and this with not the slightest show of economy, nor any the least opposition on the part of Members of that House. Private individuals were ac customed to cut down their expenses within the limits of their incomes ; but the House of Commons never thought of anything half so prudent. The army of this country was such as had never before been maintained during • peace. He said nothing of the army of India, because it was maintained abroad; neither did he say anything of the army maintained in Canada. If England dealt honestly with her colonies she need not maintain any for their use. If representative governments were given to the whole of Australia from end to end, and giver. also to New Zealand—if they reformed their colonial govern ments—they might at once bring home their troops. As to Canada, if they could not keep it by the agency of a Parliament, they could not hope to maintain it by the ihrce of an army. When this country was at war, it possessed an army and a navy sufficiently effective, and the expense of it was not great, unless when we thought proper to throw away money upon the Peninsula, and otherwise to waste treasure by subsidizing foreign powers. As he had before said, Indian warfare was not , paid for by England; he should say nothing about the justice or the expediency of that, but should confine himself to asserting that it formed no draught upon the Exchequer of England. If a man were to pass the globe ell over he would find nothing but profound !race in all the British dominions; and if, in the midst of this perfect tranquillity, England were to pay 57,000,0001., what would be her condition if she really went to war ? The Right Honourable Member for Tam worth imposed upon the country the income-tax, and when he (Mr. Roebuck) asserted that it would be a permanent impost, ho was sneeringly told that it would be merely temporary. The Right Honourable Baronet, with the plausible smile for which he was dis tinguished, repeated that it would very soon be re moved, and with the same smile, which seemed stereo typed on his countenance, he on a subsequent occasion said the tax would not be for over. Would the present Chancellor of the Exchequer tell the House that the tax was a temporary impost? It was true the present Go vernmeet had tried to increase this tax. With the true feeling of a Chancellor of the Exchequer, he considered it the easiest mode of imposing taxes, and he (etr. Roe buck) considered it one of the best modes of doing so. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer was afraid to per ,ist in that proposition, for he must have known that a large income-tsx would be the surest way to stimulate the vigilance of the House of Commons, as it would touch them and their constituents. But he repeated his dispo lion to favour dliact taxation rather than any other. 1 Upon these grounds he must vote for the motion of the [ion. Member for Surrey, for it had become absolutely necessary to excite the vigilance of that House and to rouse the Government, which lived on from day to day in constant terror of being out•voted. Nothing could be more untrue than that party was dead in that House. It was by accident he spoke from the place he now occu pied (on the Opposition side). The L ast trifle would split the party in two. The Protectionists at one end o .aio i wc: ptiyohnseeeudgnba to e tioli n :e c ee h at , hcehel t e h obc o tet hrni r ecc e rhi mttybha. behind h n n i d Nnt : do r ois o te, f the leading Opposi tionists who sat at the other, were as distinct as positive 'Membersawnh and the satth e could awb whole ovleeb and morend Houseb e . the gangway. The bench opposite to him was to was but AS a nest of partizans. Ho really wished instead of all this that there was something like a stron g ' Go• yhrnment established. For his part, he would willingly give up a popular for a strong Government. He should gladly support a Government that had vigour enough to carry out its own right intentions; bet he could not give his support to those paltry, hesitating fears, that feeling of shrinking from trouble, that self-deceit, which, like the wild ostrich in the bush, bid its bead and thought it concealed its body. If he could force out such a Govern ment and force in a strong ono, he would most willingly do so, and, therefore, he gave his cordial support to the motion of the Hon. Member for Surrey. Lord J. RUSSELL said those who at all consider the speech of my Hon. Friend the Member for Surrey must admit that he did not mean to bring any charge against the present Government, for my Hon. Friend had him self said so most distinctly Then if there has been no charge conveyed in the motion, and if it has not been accepted by my Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer as a charge against the Government—if those, also, who this evening debated the question were also agreel in not regarding it in the light of a censure, then I venture to think myself warranted in saying that no sort of censure has been intended. But nothing less would please the Hon. Member for Sheffield than to take the motion in a sense totally different from that which the Honourable Mover himself intended and plainly professed. That Honourable Gentleman would take it to be a censure , a nd insisted u p on his right to take advantage of the o pp ortunit y which that Tinton gave him to speak of what he called the imbecility of the present Administration, and to express his earnest wish that a strong Government could be found. Now it would be difficult to imagine that the Honourable Member would regard anything as a strong Government unless it were to be an Administration consisting of himself and no one else ; for, of course, he could not support those who differed from him, and there was scarcely any one who agreed with him. The Honour• able Gentleman maintains his own opinions honestly and independently, but I believe that there is not any set of Gentlemen in this House who agree with the Mem ber for Sheffield, so that he clearly could not be satisfied with any Government excepting one which should begin and end with himself. As to the motion of my .Honour able Friend the Mem ber for Surrey, though itis not a ce nsure on the Governmen t, it, nevertheless, is one to which I cannot give m y assent. His resolution is in these words:—" That whereas a great amount of taxation is levied upon the people than is rhquired_ in for the good and efficient governme nt of the United king dom; and whereas large sum s are expended support ing needless places, extravagant salaries, and unneces sary works and establishments; and whereas the present taxation of the country depresses all classes, and espe cially the labouring classes, by diminishing the . fnd for the employment of productive labou r, it is the opunon of this House that adequate means sho uld be forthwith, adopted to reduce the expenditure of the G overnment: My Hon. Friend has spoken in his resolution as hold ing the opinion that in the present session the policy and measures for which lie contends ought to have been carried; and that, I apprehend, is not so much a c, insure on the present Government as it is a condemnation of the House itself. It condemns the manner in which the votes i of thi s H ous e have been given, and the way in watch its proceedings have been conducted—for it asserts that aft e r s i x months of deliberation the Hous e has in the present sess ion not performed its duty; and , again, after six months of deliberation, my Hon. Friend having put off his motion until the present evening, now comes forward to say that 500 Members of this House who have voted upon the questions brought before them, and the greater part of whom are now out of town, have, during the whole of the sess ion, been misapplying the powers with which their constituents intrusted them. It cannot fail to appear very extraor dinary that my Hon. Friend should now bring forward this accusation against the whole House, not only when a very large proportion of them, probably 500 Members, but also at a time when some of the ablest debaters in Parliament, were absent. Are we not, then, driven to the conclusion that he takes advantage of the thinness inconsiderable portion of the minority had CO voted in order that if the motion were carried, they might graft upon it some amendment of their own. The fact was, that the salaries of those in public offices, Lot taking into account the advantages they bad previously enjoyed, and of which they were now deprived, were lower nowthan before the war took plecs. Then they had dianntshed and consolidated several offices. In the Pay Office the reduction amounted to not less than 16,000/. There was a reduction of 35 persons. There was a reduction of 47 per cent. in the whole amen nt of the salaries, and a re election of 33 per cent. as to the persons employed. A similar inquiry had been carried en in,the Home-office, and there the reduction amounted to 3,774/. a year. Gentlemen talked of the enormous numbers employed in the Government. The whole anal - dist Anent of the Home office was 18, of the Treasury 24, exclusive of the Par liamentary officers. Now, the whole number employed in all departments connected with the Treasury was 130 (as we understood). and in the French Treasury the number of clerks was not less than 500. Cemparitea themselves with other countrise, their neiehbours, he believed there were one-fourth less employed in England. The reduction in the Mint was 10,0001., in the Ordnance office 4,000/. As to patrenage, he had himself an office in his gift of 6001. a year, and he abolished it. For Chelsea Hospital the sasistant-secretaryship had been nut an end to, and a saving effected cf 1,700/. a year. In the Stationer) -office there was a saving of 31,0001. in the priotiog, and ultimately of 50,000(. The attention of the Governmant was unremittingly directed to the same subject. And Low he must remark that et ditin cults was cawed by that House itself. It turns were called for, and then cemplaiets were made of a delay in those returns, when it was impossible speedily to comply with such orders with la cluced esteblishinents , They were at one time told toey were looking for patronage, and then they were pa eased to appoint CornuaissnmPre. As Chancellor of the Exelicquer, he must say that the greater part of his oflieial life had been passed in re sisting the pressure of that House for additienal expen diture. He could sesere the Hon. Gentleman that upon this point the Government required not to be urged; that they were detf..rininod to make every reduction that was consistent with the interests of the country. As the resolution expressed or implied a censure upon the pee senntn.d the past Governments, he could riot so far agree with it.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. HUME gf4e, he said, almost ashamed to address the House, as lie had to observe upon statements that had bean four tines made in that House and four times contradicted. As to the Hon. Gentlemen (Mr. Dr:la:- mond), lie had scarcely done justice to his own motion. Upon this subject of economy the House of Commons was to blame far more than Ministers. Lest year, when the renewal of the income-tax was proposed, and an in crease was proposed, the House of Commons expressed its opinion so plainly against the increase that the Noble Lord itnmediatAy "tried back"—the proposal was revoked with'.ut a division being come to. lle-admitted that the present as well as the past Gceernment had made great and economical changes.—(flear, hear) He did not deny the benefits arising from the financial re ferais which had been already effected, but they did nut go far enough. The great cost of the army and navy must be revised before any thing like satisfactory CCU nowy could be established in the rridtary and naval expenditure of the country. In the civil branches of those departments retiring allowances were given to men who, though in perfect health, were super annuated after a certain period of service. The superannuation allowances, also, made to admirals, were mast exnnsvagtnt. The Right. Hon. Baronet had said that the country ought to be satisfied with the economical changes that had been already effected; hut he (Mr. Hume) denied that they had any right to be so satisfies]. The expenditure of the country had been raised from an average of 52,000,000/. sterling to that of 57,000,000/. witl in the last four years. Was that o ciuso of satisfaction? He contended that in order to el - feet satisfactory financial reforms they must reduce the cost of the army and navy; they must also make the colonies support themselves and finally they must re model their whole system Of taxation. He should cor dially support the motion of the Hon. Gentleman. Mr. EwART thought that these effarts to reduce taxation should proceed in the direction of those taxes which pressed en the industry and commerce of the country, particulary the Excise duties, which were the most oppres,ive that were ever imposed on any country. Mr. M. GIBSON had on is former occasion, when the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Drummond) had brought for ward a motion relating to financial reform, moved the previous question, because the motion being only for a Committee of the House, and the objects which the lion. Gentleman had shadowed forth in his speech on that occasion, as those which he would seek to attain in Committee, being such as he (Mr. Gibson) could not agree with, he could not consent to go into Committee upon them. On the present occasion, however, as the Hon. Gentleman sought in his motion to pledge the Hous e generally to a resolution that there existed a large mar gin in the public expenditure of the country which might be cut down without injury to the effective government of the country, he at once acceded to tho proposition, because it concurred with his own convictions. It was a proposition which might be regarded as instructional to the Government, encouraging them to go on in the course of retrenchment they had entered upon, and could not be considered in the light of a vote of censure upon them, or indeed upon any Government, but rather upon the system which had hitherto been allowed to exist in the country. It would Strengthen the hands of the Noble Lord when urged in the recess by military and naval men to increase expenditure in th ,se departments, if he could point to a resolution on the journals of the House of Commons recommending re trenchment. Ha (Mr. M. Gibson) was in a difficulty when he defended the Government, for nothing wenn] persuade men that there was economy until there was a reduction in taxation. The Hon. Member for .Montrose alluded to the civil liet—a very delicate question, a large proportion of it being cut of the control of the Crown, and apportioned by Parliament for the payment of public officers. All the Hon. Member for Montroie required, however, was that those receiving money from the civil list should prove their services; he would not pay use less officers, and be would relieve the civil list of such persons. No man could conscientiously say that there existed no needless officers, no useless places, no extra vagant salaries. There was the Lord-Lieutenancy of Ireland, which cost 150.000/. a year. The spirit of the times was adverse to that needless pageant, and the in tercourse between the countries was so ready, that the government of Ireland could be readily carried on from London. Then there was the slavestrade squadron, a most unnecessary expense. All these facts justified a vote in favour of the Hon. Gentleman's motion, and the eti3.war House eprnee had enewdxsoopdmouei of the n d , dti hcue soeidtsmt diminished. country u i dnf f r y ot s l hadf whence i f i n i c t r a e eat iv it d might. e as d h a le, proposition nomilit arychances eyf prFapivare a o ti r on si s x h f, u ,r nd w red r_ m u il e li a o t n i ; had een expended in preparations for wor—nearl the whole of tho national debt. H e should ° therefore sup port the motion. Colonel THOMPSON said, that if he might be per mitted to state the points upon which he agreed with, and differed from, the Hon. Gentleman, with a view to giving his vote in support of the Hon. Gentleman's mo tion, he would say that the lion. Gentleman had one foot of iron upon which he might stand in defiance of all arguments against his motion, and that was, that there was not a fair partition of taxation on the working classes. Now, if they looked to the taxation upon such an article as tobacco, they would find that by the manner in which that taxation was made the working man paid eleven times as much as the rich consumer of that arti cle. And when he heard the Chancellor of the Exche quer say there was a sort of balance in the case of the income-tax, he could not agree to it until he found that the rich man paid something like eleven times as much as the poor man. As to the policy of paying off the na tional debt, he thought they must some day have a friendly passage of arms. lie could not understand how it was to be paid off exec pt at the market value, end he feared that if it were paid off we should be told to-mor row, " Oh, you are a happy nation—you have no debt;" and the first thing we should do would be to get into debt again.—(A laugh.) He would Oro take that op portunity of saying that Hon. Gentlemen ought not to be too hasty in forming an opinion in consequence of what was considered as the repert of the African Com mittee. In the main, that report was the opinion of the Chairman ; for generally there was an equal division of the Committee, arid he then gave his casting vote lle (Colonel Thompson) hoped, therefore, that the re port would go forth to the world as the opinion of the Chairmen. Lord R. GROSVENOR thought one thing was ev dent—that there was a Brest difference of opinion as to the remedy by which the evil complained of was to be met. To the revolution he thought there was no sub stantive objection, hut the arguments in support of it ought to be borne in mind, or it might give a notion to the public out of deers that the present Government and oth(es before them had been txceedingly remiss in endeavouring to reduce taxation—a charge which he thought could not be fairly made. The House would not fail to observe that the Hon. Member for West Surrey and his Ri.,;ht Hon. Friend agreed upon this subject. His Right Ron. Friend made no objection to a res , lotion pledging the Govern men t or t h e country to a reduction of expenditure, and h o himself thought a s e luttoa might be prepar e d w hi c h wou ld be unani mously agreed to by that House. He would therefore suggest that that resolution should - run thus :—" That whereas no greeter amount of taxation ought to be levied upon the people than is recoired for the good and efficient government of the United Ki ng d om; an d whet eas it is expedient that inquiry should take place whether there may not be some needless places, some salaries too large, and some works that may be unne cessary—it is the opinion of this House that a vigilant superintendence ought to be exercised over the expen diture, so that every reduction may be made that will not be of detriment to the public service." If the lion. Geetleesen would not consent to adopt that altera tion he (Lord R. Grosvenor) would move it as an emend ment to the Hen. Gentleman's motion. Mr. DRUMMOND was understood to decline adopt ing the alteration proposed by the Noble Lord, and it was then put from the chair as an amendment. Mr. ROEBUCK said, surely the House was not going to adept su c h a re solution as was proposed by the Noble Lord, for it wns the identical proposition that that House ought to de its duty—that whereas there were many needless places and so on, therefore the House ought to be vigilant in reducing the expenditure. Could the House understand a proposition of that sort? He could understand the proposition of the Hon. Gentle man the Member f o r West • Surrey, for that stated distinctly and categorically that the expenditure was too great, and he hoped the House would not for an instant pass over whet was a real and substantive proposition, to ac cept one which was evidently put forward as a makeshift and excuse to escape from a plain-spoken and proper Proposition. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that l this was a sort o f c h arge aga i nst t h e Government. Ile ('dr. Roebuck) accepted it in that meaning. lie be lieved that i t was and that it ought be a charge against the Government, and he would ask any one who wished f9r it sort of histuige,l geeellection for the bolydays to E ST) N. LONDON, FRID A Y EVENING, JULY 20, 1849 of business connected with payments, in cases with which my Rif s ht Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is aequaitred, we introduced regulations by which those offices have been abolished as they fell vacant, or have been united with other o:fie-a in the Treasury. I say, then, that I can have no objection to any general reso lution with respect to these offices. The Hon. Member for Montrose has said that our expenses have been in creasing. It is certainly true, with regard to the year 1847 and the beginning of 1848, that there was an in crease of expenditure; but the great increase of expense was in the estimates of 1845. which were very fully explained to this House, and which the House affirmed. It was explained to the House that an increase was proposed in the navy for the purpose of defence, and the House—l think without any opposition—affirmed the necessity of that increase. —(!{ear, hear.) I believe there was nothing beyond a very insignificant opposition to that proposal. At present there is a contrary dispo sition, ttild the House of Commons now calls upon the Government to make reductions in the estimates. Well, at the end of last session, and in the course of the present session, we have made very considerable reductions. The tessluetions stated in the budget of 1848.49 were 828,0001. In the estizialtes of 1849 50 the reductions were to the amount of 1.511,455!, and there has bsen a further reduction in the Oseloance estimates, making a total of 2,361 . 8241—(Hear.) But, while wo have been malting these reductions, r e are constantly told that we are always increasing our expenditure. It is said, almost every night, " You may require as many troops as you have had, hut why should you be constantly in creating them?" My answer is that wo are not incri acing, but in the progress of reducing the number; and I therefore con iier that it would not be wise, on the part of this House, to cenie to a general resolution, which is proposed, not as a vote of censure upon the G vernment, but which would bo a vote of censure passed by the Members present upon the Members absent.— (" Hear, hear." and laughter.) I own that in that view I do not th;nkit would be eithera very wise or a very fair course of proceeding. I think we should rather adopt some resolution which would convey the general sense of the House when the House is full, and that, with re rweelasihdoubold. fore us. The Right Honourable Member for Manchester oure th the d c e a i r s y i i o n u g u o u u t of f u s r u t c h h e ra estimates on n has told us that the people say , " Y ou tell us you are making great reductions, but how i s taxation lessened? That Right Hon. Gentleman might reply, " If you go to the market you will find that prices are reduced in 1849 very much below what they we re in 1841, and s reduction is owing in many instanc es to the abolitys or reduction of duties either under the Go vernment of the th Right Honourable Member for Tamworth, or under that of the present Ministry." I trust that if the House comes to any resolution they will rather adopt the mo tion of the Noble Member for Middlesex, for I think it would be unwise to pass a resolution in such sweeping terms as that of the lion. Member for Surrey, which can not lead to any practical result.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. SPOONER thought the Noble Lord ought to met the motion of his Hon. Fricad the Member for Surrey with . a direct negative, but the Noble Lord, in stead of taking that course, had advised the House to adopt the vague proposition of the Noble Lord the Member for Middlesex. His Hon. Friend had said that of the House at the end of the session to ;bring forward a motion which he could not hope to propose with equal success at any other period of the year ? It is at this time and under these circumstances that he brings his motion before the House. Assuming, then, for a mo ment that my Hon. Friend could carry his resolution, I cannot suppose that such a decision could come before the ceuntry with any weight, seeing that at best it would only express the sense of a vi ry small number of the Members of this House. But even in the existing con dition of the House the motion, in its present state, is hardly one which we could adopt ; nevertheless, it is one which the Hon. Member for Sheffield says he will sup port, though he seems to justify his vote upon rather ex traordinary grounds. He says that Sir H. Parnell moved a resolution in 1830 which Lord Althorp, in 1831, did not practically carry out. Now, supposing the state ments of the lion. Member for Sheffield to have been well founded with respect to both, I do not see how that ought to induee! the House to come to a vote of censure on the present Government. The fact is, h owe ver, that the feints to which the Hon. Member for " Shan't:ld re ferred were not urgte d in 1830 and 1831, a; he repre sented them to have been. The leading Whigs of that period, Lord Brougham and others, objected to c2rta:n expenses being included in the civil list, which in all previous times had formed part of that branch of the public expenditure. They objected to apparent addi does being made to the household and personal expenses of the Sovereign which properly did not belong either to the one or the other. They argued the question on two grounds—one was that all charges on the civil list should, according to the previaus arrangement, expire with the life of the Sovereign—the other was that means should be taken to do away with the iefluence of the unfounded assertion that 900,0031., to which the charges on the civil list amounted, was a sum which the actual expenses of the Crown required—whereas the personal expanses of the Sovereign and the dignity of the Crown could be and were maintained at less than half that amount of expenditure. That was the light in which the subject had been regarded by the Whigs of that period, and the House of Commons engaging in an irquiry on that subject, referred the question to a Select Committee, with power to send for persor.s, papers, and records. Upon the appointment of that Com mittee the Wellington Administration resigned their offices. But, even on the Hon. Member fo r Sheffield s own showing, there is no reason why the present vote should be agreed to by the House, and there c ertainl y is less reason for it when the history of those transactions comes to be explained. Accordingly, the civil list was, at the period to which I have been referring, so settled as that during the reign of William IV. the amount was considerably less than in the preceding reign. At the commencement of the present reign it was still further reduced, and therefore the events connected with the accession of the Whigs to power and the resignation of their predecess irs, in 1830, ought not to induce the House to assent to the motion of my Hon. Friend the Member for Surrey. As to the grounds that have been laid for that motion, T cannot agree to the doctrine put forward by my Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose, who repeats what he has so often before stated as his settled conviction, that if the gross amount of the taxes be not lowered the people of this country can have ex perienced no relief. [That W IS, said Mr. Hums, not precisely the statement that he had made. lie said that relief had not been given to the people by lowering the whole amount of taxes that they paid.] But if there were any value in that argument it was this, that taking off taxis di I not give the people any relief. It has never been maintained by us, that taking oil taxes eventually diminished the gross amount of taxation to an equal amount; but I hope the house will do us the justice to remember that we did not merely change texes,—that is, not all that has been done, f e• every one must recol lect that Parliament took off more taxes than were im posed; and further, there ware other cases,—there were eases of total abolition. Surely it will not be said that by see'a m mstire3 th.e people were net relieved, even though the revenue might still remain at the same amount. Now I cannot help reminding lion. Members of some of the charges that have been effected. On salt there has been a reduction to the amount of 3,000,0001. It once bore a price of 15s. a bushel, and I now learn from a person very largely engaged in that trade, that he can now purchase it for 61 a bushel instead f 153. This is taking off duty to the amount of 3,000 per cent. If, then, when 3,000,0001. were taken off, the revenue in a short time rose to its original height, it was not owing to the unaltered state of the taxation, but in consequence of the riches of the country. The people had been re relieved to a great extent, but in a short time the gross revenue regained its previous position. The tax on sugar has also been reduced from 3.1. a pound to The poor man can now have it for 40.; surely that is a relief, and if, notwithstanding, that he paid 4id., the wealth .of the c ountry still continues to be such that the whole revenue remains of the same amount as before, that fact surely affords no proof that the people had not at that time been relieved, or that their burdens still re mained equal to what they had previously been. I can not understand how the Hon. Member goes on repeat ing that the taxes are just the same as before merely because the total amount of the revenue remained un , changed. On the contrary, Ido believe that the largest amount of taxation which the country has paid is but a proof of its riches and prosperity—that it was better off than before ; and there can be no doubt that the Ame rican and the French wars which added so largely to our public debt, have but afforded proofs of the great resources of the country ever since peace has been re established. The taxes on salt, the taxes on candles, the taxes on leather, the taxes on coals carried coastwise, have been removed. There has been a diminution of the taxis on sugar and beer—all these are matters which Che poor man consumes, and which paid heavy duties before we undertook those unfortunate and mistaken wars with America and France. But, Sir, having taken off those taxes, and having taken them off consistently with maintaining a considerable military establishment, some say much too large a Military establishment, and consistently with the credit of the country, the lion. Member for Surrey asks us) adopt some scheme by which we may be relieved from what he rightly considers the great burden of the country, viz., the Him of upwards of 28,000, 000 /. annually which we pay as the interest of our national debt. Now I own, that while I think the wars I have mentioned were unnecessary, while I think we never ought to have entered into a war with our people iu America—(Hear)—and while I think it was quite unnecessary to go to war with the French when they established a republic—and that prudent eon , duct would have saved us from those wars,—l say the nation is now bound by faith and by a regard to policy, if not to honesty, to pay the interest of the debt it has incurred.—( [leer, heir.) Well, if that be the case, I own I do not believe there is any contrivance—any sort of hems pocus—by which, if you are to pay the interest of the debt, and to be liable to that debt, you can get rid of the burden of it. Any scheme to raise an amount of taxation to pay off that debt would either produce such an immense amount of taxation as the country would not tolerate, or after two or three shifts you would find you had exactly the same burden to bear as was the case before. There is only one way of dealing with this debt, and that is regularly to pay the interest of it.— (dear, hear.) If you have a surplus employ that sur plus to a moderate amount, if you please, in paying off some of your debt; but I believe, with the Hon. Member for Dumfries, that we made a useful change when we abolished the sinking fund, which would never have materially diminished the capital of our debt, in order to enable us to take off taxes by the removal of which the country has become much richer, and is much better able to bear the interest of the debt than if those taxes had been retained. But, admitting that the debt must rc. main, and that there is no ingenious contrivance by which we can get rid of the burden, if we maintain the public faith, we are told by the Hon. Member for Sheffield (411 r. Roebuck), that the army is a great deal too large, and that it ought to be consider ably reduced. I must say with respect to the army maintained in the United Kingdom and its colonies, that we have this year reduced it by no less than 10,000 men. I certainly consider that such a reduction made in one year is a very considerable reduction.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Sheffield has said—following others who frequently made the same assertion, though I never heard anything advanced in proof of it—that if we did but govern our colonies well, and give them re presentative institutions, wo should have no need of our army. Why, these Hon. Gentlemen suppose that our army is maintained for the purpose of, keeping down the people of the colonies. Then, why not ieduce the number of troops at Portsmouth and Plymouth? But we do not keep troops at Portsmouth and Plymouth because the people of those towns are disaffected, and we wish to re strain them by military force. We keep troops at Ports mouth and Plymouth to defend those places, because we consider their defence to be essential to the safety of the country; and on the same ground we have troops in Bermuda and other possessions, to defend those colo nies. In some instances, no doubt, when there are dis sensions in our colonies, those dissensions might break out into disturbance, and the troops are of use for main taining the peace in case of any such disturbances. The Hon. Member for Sheffield has said that if we gave re presentative institutions to the colonies we might dimi nish our army • but it is remarkable that the Governor of New Zealand entertains the opinion that with repre sentative institutions there would be much more danger of disturbances among the natives of that colony than there is at the present time. I have always maintained that we ought, as far as possible, to establish represen tative institutions in our colonies, and the only question is ,with regard to particular colonies, whether they can or cannot bear representative institutions. Now, with regard to the question of salaries and offices, if a resolu tion were submitted to the House lik that which my Noble Friend the Member for Middlesex has proposed, which wily implies that salaries ought to be reduced, and that offices ought to be abolished whenever there is reason for taking such a course, I think— the Government being disposed to act upon that principle—that I could have no objection to the House affirming such a principle. But I conceive that we are not at all liable to the charge of wishing to keep up offices when they are unnecessary. Ido not think any proposal was ever made in this House to reduce the number of the Commissioners of Stamps and Taxes and of the Excise; and yet the appointment of those Cotn missioners was, in the way of patronage, about the most desirable patronage any Minister could possess.—(ilear, hear.) Now what have we done? We had no pressure upon that subject; but we reduced the number of Com missioners of Stamps and Taxes and Excise from twelve to seven, abolishing five Commissioners, and of course parting with a great dell of patronage which belonged especially to the First Lord of the Treasury.—(l - lear, hear.) '!'hat, I say, is some proof that we are not in disposed to measures of economy and reduction. Then with regard to Masters in Chancery, last year one of those °Mors became vacant. I asked the Lord Chan cellor whether it was necessary that it should be filled up. He said it was not necessary. No motion was made in this House on the subject, but we abolished that Mastership in Chancery, and I thereby parted with the patronage of the appointment. So with respect to several offices in the Treasury for the transaction taxation pressed very heavily upon the industry of the country, and in that statement he (Mr. Spooner) fully concurred. He did not agree, however, in the reasons which had been assigned by some Hon. Gentlemen fer that pressure, for he beli• ved it was occasioned by the system of free trade. They had taken off the Customs' duties which pressed upon the foreigner, and had im posed duties upon their own native industry.—(Hear, hear) He considered that they ought to place a tax upon every foreign article imported equivalent to the taxation borne by the producers of this country, The only persons who had benefited from the recent com mercial policy of the Government were those who had fixed salaries and incomes, while they had inflicted upon the productive and industrious classes a serious and cruel injustice. He would support the proposition of his Hon. Friend the Member fur Surrey, and he called upon the House to reject the amendment, which was a complete evasion of the cieestion. Mr. CHRISTOPHER wished to explain the grounds on which he intended to vote for the motion of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Drummond). The Chancellor of the Ex chequer had stated, in reply to the arguments of that Hon. Gentlemen on the subject of salaries, that official salaries ware in the aggregate less now than they were at the end of the American war; but he (Mr. Christo pher) wished to know whether, with reference to the prices of articles of consumption, these salaries were not much higher now than they were ten years ago.— (Hear, hear.) Considering that the policy of the last and the present Governments had been to make al: articles of consumption cheap and money dear, it did nol require any long argument to prove that persons re , ceiving official salaries were benefited by those changes —(Hear, hear.) That was a sufficient reason for the House to interfere and to reduce their salaries in accor dance with the existing state of things in the country. The amendment proposed evaded the question altogether. It asked the Government to exercise a supervision over the expenditure ; but as the Government professed to do so already any resolution of that kind was not wanted. What was required was for the House to coma to a re solution that under the altered circumstances of the country, brought on by recent legislation, it would not saection the same salaries as were given during a dif ferent state of things, and public opinion was so Etrong on this point that, it Government did not come forward with a proposition of the kind, either in the present or next session, still it would be utterly impossible for Parliament to oppose a very material reduction. Mr. HAWES wished to correct a statement made by the lion. Member for Surrey. He understood the Hon. Member to state that certain reductions were proposed by the Governor of Trinidad which the Noble Lord at the head of the colonial department refused to sanction. The Hon. Member was in error, for no reductions had been proposed by the Governor of Trinidad which did not meet in principle, thought n regard to the extent (as we understood) there might be some question, with the sanction of the Noble Earl; and he could assure the Hon. Member that, as far as the Noble Earl was con cerned, whenever well-considered reductions were pro posed, they would not meet with opposition. Mr. BANKES expressed his surprise that the Noble Lord the Member for Middlesex should have brought forward his amendment without giving notice of it. Hiv ing heard the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he undoubtedly understood that the Government meant to offer no opposition to the motion; and having been absent from the House for some short space of time, he was astonished on his return to find an amendment moved by the Noble Lord the Member for Middlesex. That amendment gave an opportunity to Hon. Members of slipping through tho question; but as he was not prepared for any evasion of the question, he should give his vote for the original motion. The time had come, he thought, when Parliament was called on to give an aye or no decision on the question whether, under the exist ing circumstances of the country, a searching inquiry and economy with respect to these matters was not re• quired. He should be heartily sorry if the Government had no serious objection to the motion, that they should at the present moment endeavour to g at rid of it by a side wind, for such was the character of the present amendment.—(Hear.) Mr. H. DRUMMOND, in reply, observed that there was no intention on his part to misrepresent the conduct of Lord Grey, but he thought that what had fallen from the Under-Secretary for the Colonies mad s more strongly for his argument.—(Hear, hear.) It was unjust of the Noble Lord at the head of the Government to say that he had taken advantage of the absence of Members to bring forward the question, for the fact was that he had urged the matter on the attention of the House last session, and twice during the present. With regard to the national debt it hal been said that that was an advan tage to the public, though, if the same rule were to apply to the nation as to individuals, it would not be so consi dered, for it was always thought to be an advantage to gentlemen having mortgages on their estates to pay them off. In conclusion, he declared that he did not bring the motion forward as a censure on the Government, and ho believed that no `gentleman on either side of the House, with one exception, thought it had that tendency, either directly or indirectly. The House then divided, when there appeared — For the motion ... 71 For the amendment... ..• 68 Majority for the motion ... 3 annou ncement of tho numbers was rec eived with Tie cheers.m GRAND JURIES (IRELAND). Sir W. SOMERVILLE, in moving for leave to bring in a Bill to make better provision for the administration of fiscal affairs in counties, counties of cities, and coun ties of towns in Ireland, said that he did not propose at that late period of the session to proceed with the Bill, but merely to introduce it, so that it might be printed and its various provisions considered during the recess. The object of the Bill was to do away with the grand juries in Ireland, as the Board which he wished to have established by this Bill wou'd be more capable of at• ten ling administration of counties, counties of cities, end counties of towns in Ireland, than the grand juries had hitherto done, and this he felt fully assured would con tribute very much to the interest of the Irish labourer. He, therefore, proposed to introduce this Bill. Mr. MONSELL said that he felt glad that the system of anomolous taxation that hitherto prevailed in Ireland would be put an end to by this Bill, and hoped that the grand jury-rates and the poor-rate would be collected by the same officers, as such a system would greatly reduce the expenditure on the poor of that country. Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that he hoped that the opinion of the Committee would be attended to next session on that point, and was happy to find that this Bill was agreeable to all the Irish Members. He then proposed a Bill for the prevention of Accidents and Dangers to Passengers upon Public Roads and Highways in Ireland, and for the Punishment of Offences relating thereto. The Bill was then read a first time. He then brought on the following Bill for promoting the Public Health in Ireland, which was read a first time. He was happy to say that there was springing up in Ireland a desire for the promotion of such measures as seemed calculated to augment and ensure sanitary regulations. He was anxious to draw the attention of the House to what had been done in Dublin on this subject. Th e e com plaints against public nuisances i n the past; ear wer 7,105, and owing to the labours of Sir Edward Burrows and the Sanitary Commis sion, the improvements which had been effected were of the most ble kind.valu_ es ee subject was one of the m ost vital importaLdo,hend r trusted cially to the poorer c lasses in Ireland; that the Bill which he now t.isked the eave of the House t o introduce would meet wit that degree of f pourable attention to which it was e ntitled. Mr. MONSEL L had heard with great satisfaction the sentiment now expressed by the Right Hon. Baronet; but he must say, that so long as the public gaols in Ire land were le f t in the unwholesome state in which the y ar e at present , b y reason of overcrowdingof transports, and against which he had often, in the course o f th e pre sent session, complained, he thought that the measure proposed would fall short of its proposed effeet. Another point which he was desirous to direct attention to was the toast of the "Battle of the Diamond;" and, under intramural burials, which ought ; es affecting the public the circumstances of this case should they deal more health, to be done away with. A third point was, tho tonaerly wits Lord Roden? Ile intended next Monday nocesssity of a mcacure for the registration of births, to able the Government whether these magisterial de• Unguents any longer retained the commisson of the deaths, and marriages in Irela nd, Sir WILLIAM SOMERVILLE said he had pre- peace? pared a all on the subject of the state of the gaGls in Mr. NICHOLL hoped that the House would not pre- Ireland, which he hoped to be able to introduce early in judge any individual. If the Government failed to do the next session. With regard to the question of in- their duty, it would be their duty in an ensuing session tramural burials, ho considered it of very great import- to inquire how that failure of justice had occurred. ance, and intended to pay due attention to it; and the Alter a few words from Captain ARCHDALL, question of births, deaths, and marriages amid receive Mr. MOORE his motion. SALE OF BREAD. consideration. The Bill, after a few words from Sir D. NORREYS and Mr. BANKES moved the second reading of a Bill Mr. MONSELL, was read a first time. for preventing frauds in the sale of bread. Tho Hon. nab, expressed his hope that Government would net Member :p. oppose the Bill. Mr. LABOUCHERE opposed the further progress of the sill. The present law provided that the baker should keep weights and weigh out the bread to the pur chaser. The Hon. Member proposed that the bread should be weighed out of the oven and stamped accord ingly. He (Mr. Labouchere), feeling that the alteration wouli greatly embarrass trade and place respectable tradesmen at the mercy of informers, felt bound, however reluctantly, to move that the Bill be read a second time a day sIN months. Sr" C. BURRELL supported the Bill. Captain PECHELL opposed the Bill as calculated to interfere vexatiously with small tradesmen throughout the country. Lord D. STUART and Mr. MANGLES took a similar view of the question. The gallery was cleared for a division, but none tA ok place, the motion having been regatived, and the Bill thrown on!. Tho Dublin Improvement Bill passed through Com mittee, and the House adjourned at One o'clock. In the at pence of Mr. Hume, Mr. BRIGHT moved for " Accounts of the number ef individual depositors and of charitable institutions, and friendly societies depositing their funds in Savings Bellies, and of the EUMS deposited, divided into the usual of on the 20111 day of November, 1847, and on the 20th thy of November, 1348, &..c. eee." ORANGE PROCESSIONS. Mr. MOORE wished to draw the attention of the House, and he hoped of the Government, to transactions selsich to.:k place in the north of Ireland on the 12th of July, and which proved most dangerous to the pence, and in .eoune c sees fatal to the lives or her Mejesty's sub jects. He regretted that the Act for putting; down those proe. ssions was not renewed, osi its expiration in 1845; hut he did not, on that point, blame lax Majesty's Go v•ritnnnt for not having brought forward a measure, for he believed that they retied on the good feelings of the gentlemen of the north of Ireland, Liter a calamitous f :mine of three years, not to raection there precessions. It might well be hoped, that in the midst of each iitli c (ions. it was not possible that the people of the north would stir up religious feeliner ; but they little knew the heart, the souls, and the brains of the Orangemen of the north of Ireland, who thirsted - for the rnoloe'n of sanguinary bigotry on the, 12th of July, and it was not surprising that on that day, they were assembled in more than ordinary t• iumph. It was easy to understand why such a moment was sale al upon; bat the hearts of tho people were dead within them. it was easy to understand the object of such bigoted blockheads, whose preceediee.s ledto the loss of lite, of which he now csuiplained. j ''lnth e neighbour hood of Castlewellan, there was apass to known a b a b o y e the name of "Dolly Bray," which appeared of contention between the rival factions. This spot seems to have been invested with a traditional import ance, and for this Orange party to pass over "Dolly Bray" was a challenge to the opposite faction. For some years the pass was not attempted, and last year it was formally discussed whether it should be attempsed or not; but this year it was supposed that one year more of cslamity would give the Cathol no advantage, and is was resolved, not merely by the ordinary Oraneetnen , but by men of education and position, and even by magistrates, that the pass age should be tried, and that large bodies of men should be brought forwerd, pre pared for collision. But they went one step further, and brought large bodies of police with them. There were, too, on the ground, one company of the 9th foot, one troop of the 13th Light Dragoons, one troop of the Enniskillen Dragoons, and a large body of armed con stabulary ; and those ms n, it would appear, were dispatched by her Majesty's Government, rot for the purpose of into r - ering and preventing col lision, but of looking on. They had it, on the authority of Major Wilkinson, that the Orangemen were "armed to the teeth," and that they were allowed to pass by the magistrates without any order to the troops to prevent them. The party proceeded, firing shots, to Tullamore Park, the seat of Lord Roden, who regaled them, and certainly addressed them in language that could not be complained of; but weak men, like Lord Eden, were sometimes most dangerous to society; and vicious men did not fail to do wrong under their apparent countenance. Lord H tden met five or six thousand men, and presented himself to them dressed out in the full insignia of his order. lie repeated, that the address of the Noble Lord was in every respect of a nature to dis arm the vicious; but five or six thousand fanatics were not to be reasoned with. A conflict took place, life was lost; and he understood that Lord Roden excused himself from attending the coroner's inquest on the plea of ill health. Ile (Mr. Moore) was willing to believe that such was the case; but. he hoped that Lord Roden would not, in future, sanction processions, the result of which must add sorrow to his grey hairs.—(Hear.) The officer who commanded the party stated that ho had no doubt what ever a collision would take place, and that ho b lieved the firA shot was fired by an Orangeman. The firing then became general, and as to her Majesty's forces, they contented themselves with looking on, far, indeed, they had no choice except to fire at both parties, or de sist altogether. They adopted the latter; but not so the police, who immediately joined the Orangemen and took pert with them in firing en what was termed the rebels, and afterwards in pursuit. They shot down and beat oat the brains of a great number of the peasantry, took upwards of 30 pri.toeers, who were brought before the magistrates who commanded the police, end the evidence of those police taken, instead of having theta handcuffed and sent to gaol with those in custody. Not content with even that, they burned several houses, and in ono case were nearly murdering a child and an old woman. The Hon. Member then read a passage from the Dublin Evening Mail, giving the details of this most horrible transaction. He (Mr. Moore) thought the eae moat deplorable in its details, considering the part taken by the highest and the lowest actors, and certainly it was hard to say who autenet . them was to blame. It au in quiry were to be instituted into the transaction, it should be ascertained who it was that planned a circui tous route on a bad road through IDoily Bray. What were the representations which induced the Government to send a large military and police force; and, above all, the conduct of the magistracy? and what their know ledge was of whit was about to take place? The Hon. Gentleman then concluded by moving for the production of the correspondence which had taken place on the subject. Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that, if he did not go into a lengthened detail of what had occurred, he hoped it would not for a moment be considered that he did not feel the deepest regret at what had taken place. The lion. Gentleman ought to recollect that, in the begin ning of the present y oar, certain occurrences happened, at a place called Creasgar, near Dolly Bray, which made the Government watchful, and into which he did not then choose to enter. With regard to the procession which had taken place, it was hoped that the state of the public mind, and a more kindly feeling of one towards the other of both parties, would have prevented the necessity of introducing an Act of Parliament on the subject, but unfortunately they were disappointed. All he should now say, however, was, that the strictest in quiry would take place into everything which occurred, both as regarded the military, police, and all parties con cerned. Captain JONES deeply regretted what had happened, and reminded the House that, when the Act expired, he implored the Government to bring forward another such measure to prevent all processions. With regard to what had been said about Lord Roden, inviting the Orangemen to Tullamore Park, he had seen a letter from his Lordship, denying the assertion in the most positive terms. Mr. BRIGHT denounced it as one of the most atro cious and abominable acts which ever occurred in Ire land ; and as to what had been said in vindication of Lord Roden, he believed the Noble Lord would not escape from the matter as innocently as he expected.— (llear, hear.) For his own part, he could not under stand why a nobleman should regale a parcel of people in his park unless they were invited. He believed the Government were actuated by the best of motives in not renewing the Processions Act, but surely the Govern ment had the power of preventing the meeting of thou sands of armed persons, instead of which they sent an armed force, who actually accompanied the Orangemen in their march. They walked with the Orange preces sion, with the police, and in point of fact, regarded the Catholics as enemies and the Protestants as friends. That was the history of Ireland in a few words, and he would tell the Right Hon. Gentleman that if the matter were not rigidly inquired into, it would do much to pre vent that union and goodwill among h© e had seen was so much desired. If the facts were a s l them in the papers, be thought thename::f Lord Roden (gi ant n ot be allowed to remain a s i ng l e moment on the commission of the peace. Sir 1). NORHEYS condemned the proceedings, and avowed his opinion that no peace could be expected in Ireland until the law was obeyed because it was the law, and not at the bidding of any individuals whatever. Major BLACK ALL concurred with the observation made by the Hon. Member for Manchester, that armed parties should be dispersed; but as to what had been said respecting the military the lion. Member should recollect that they were under the orders of the magistrates, and should obey them. Mr. F. MAULE admitted that a most melancholy oc currence had taken place, which required the strictest inquiry, and he would implore of the Hon. Member to forbear from further comment on the question until that had taken place. With regard to what had been said of the military—they must recollect that they were under the orders of the magistrates, and as to the army gene rally, they had received the marks of approbation of all parties for their conduct on a late occasion in Ireland; when it was proved by their forbearance that they were the best friends of the people against whom they were sent. Mr. MONSELL hoped that before the present session of Parliament was over a Party Processions Act would be introduced, to put an end to those deplorable processions. —(Hear, hear.) lie implored the Governmenthteo_do that, the more, when he found the coroner _at and t that in quest stating that these processions were lega e l, the Government of the country counteeneeatniecnd. thneeradbey. sending an firmed force for their p nouneed the conduct of the magistrate s ' had so 0 armed men to march through the count r y rsln'll°a"s'itnhge; done in this instance. Mr. LABOLTCHEIne 0 . ' hserved that inasmuch CS a e did not think was to be instituted, h ''d most rigid inquiry it would be politic to a ccede T to the request made by the Hon. Genth mats w ho last adereesed the Hulse, to intro duce a Bill this session to put down patty proees.io ns . The most a nxious attention of the Governm , lht had beel given to these circumstances. lie was haipy to say, that d u ring his br:ef stay in Ireland, the I,rincipal men dis couraged, by every means itt their p l o i w e (r cie suc i n scenes as those they were now lamentine. regretted , what hod taken place, and hoped that the ep li not continue the iniquity, as the Gay(' ' ouseisyoutci insti tuted a searchine.. t •rnment had the House to expresand it would not be right for s an inquiry, opinion uutil that inquiry was concluded. Mr. REYNOLDS said ho had listened to this debate with the deepest attention. lie believed that the author of these murders was Lord Roden. His fifteen hundred men had spent their bloody anniversary in huzzas and drinking and triumphing, and, being armed to the teeth, murdered men, women, and children; and, not content with that, actually robbed the'poor people. Now, Colonel Verner and other magistrates had been dismissed by Lord Normanby for oven proposing on the 12th of July, PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS. (From the Votes and Proceedings of the Howe cf COMM , 3nS,I THURSDAY, JULY 19. TAXATION. Motion made and Question proposed, " That whereas a greater amount of Taxation is levied upon the people than is required for the good and efficient government of the United Kingdom ; and whereas large sums are expended in support ing needless places, extravagant salaries, and unnecessary works and establishments ; and whereas the present taxation of the country depresses all classes, and especially the labour ing classes, by diminishing the fund fur the employment of productive labour, it is the opinion of this liou,e, that ade quate means should be forthwith adopted to reduce the ex penditure of the Government." Amendment proposed, to leave out from the words " That whereas" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words " no greater amount of taxation ought to be levied than is sufficient for the good and efficient government of the empire; and whereas it is expedient that a searching inquiry should take place, whether some places may not have become useless, whether some salaries arc not too large, and whether some works and establishments may not be unnecessary, it is the opinion of this House that a vigilant superintendence should be exer cised over the expenditure of the country in all its depart ments, in order that every reduction may be made therein which can be effected without detriment to the public service," instead thereof:—Question put, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the question." The House divided : MAJORITY—AYES, 71. Alcock, Thomas Gooch, E. S. Pechell, Captain Bankes, G. Gwyn, Bowel Perfect, Robert Bass, M. T. Ilastie, Alexander Pigo tt, Francis Blake, M. J. Heathcoat, John Pilkington, James Bl‘witt, It. J. Henley, J. W. Portal, Melville Bouverie, E. P. Henry, Alexander Rendlesham, Lord Bright, John Heyworth, L. Roebuck, J. A. Brocklehurst, John Hindley, Charles Rufford, Francis Burrell, Sir C. Hodgson, W. N. Rushout, Captain Chaplin, W. J. liollond, Robert Saiwey, Colonel Christopher, R. Hood, Sir A lexander Scholefield, William Cobden, It. Horsman, Edward Smith, J. B. Coles, Henry B. Jollifle, Sir W. 11. Spooner, Richard Dick, Quintin Kershaw, Jaime Stuart, Lord D. Dickson, Samuel Lennard, T. B. Thompson, Colonel Duncan, George Locke, Joseph Thompson, George Du Pre, C. G. Lockhart, A.' E. Tollernsetc, John Ewart, William Meagher, Thomas Walmsley, Sir I. Fagan, William Moore, G. H. Wawn, J. T. Fergus, John Mowatt, Francis Wood, W. P. Fordyce, A. D. Noel, Gerald J. Wyld, James Fox, W. J. Nugent, Sir Percy Frewcn, C. 11. O'Connor. Feargus TILLERS. Fuller, A. E. Osborne, Ralph Drammond, Henry Gibson, T. M. Pearson, Charles Hume, Joseph MINORITY—NOES, 68. Abdy, T. N. Fox, R. M. Parker, John Acland, Sir T. Freestun, Colonel Plowden, W. H. Adair, It. Shafto Glyn, G. C. Pwer, Dr. Armstrong, Sir A. Grey, Ralph W. P o rysc, Pryse Armstrong, R. B. Grosvenor, Lord R. Raphael, Alexander Baines, M. T. Ilallyburton, Lord Reynolds, John Baring. Sir F. Harris, Richard Romilly, Sir John Bellew, R. H. Hawes, Benjamin Rumbold, C. E. Birch, Sir Thomaa Hay, .Lord John Russell, Lord J. Brotherton, J. Hobhouse, Sir John ilatherfurd, A. Brown, W. Hobliouse, T. B. Shell, R. L. Campbell, W. F. Howard, Lord E. Smith, J. A. Clerk Sir George Jervis, Sir John Somerville. Sir W. Cowper, W. F. Keppel, Gcorge.T. Stanton, W. H. Cubitt, William Labouchere, lienry Thornely, T. Dundas, Admiral Lascelles, W. S. Tufnell. 11. Eb r ington, Lord Lewis , G. C . Turner, George Ellice, Edward 31'Cullagb, W. T. Vibiers, Viseoun. Elliot, John E. Mangles, R. D. Wood, Sir Charles Evans, John 31aule, Fox Wyrill, Marmaduke Ferguson, Sir R. Morison, Sir W. Filmer, Sir E. Nichol', J. Fitzpatrick. JW. Paget, Lord A. Forster, Mathew Palmerston, Via. TELLERS. Hill, Lord Marcus Rich, Henry COURT CIRCULAR. - - OSBORNE, THURSDAY. Her Majesty and his Royal Highness walked this morning early, in Osborne Park. His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, the Princess Royal, and j younger . members of the Royal Family walked and rode as usual. The Queen held a Privy Council yesterday, at one o'clock, which wac attended by his Royal Highness Prince Albert, the Marquis of Lansdowne, Sir George Grey, Viscount Palmerston, Earl Grey, Sir Francis 13aring, Lord Campbell, the Marquis of Clanricarde, and Earl Fortescur. The lion. William Bathurst officiated as Clerk of the Conned. , His Excellency M. Drouyn de Lhuys, Ambassador trom the French Republic, was introduced to her Ma jesty by Viscount Palmerston, and had the honour of presenting his credentials. After the Council the above noble personages partook of a luncheon, and then returned to London. with the exception of the Marquis of Lansdowne, and Sir George Grey, who were honoured by an invitation to remain at Osborne. Thae was no other addition to the usual dinner party. Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Gloucester visited their Royal Highnesses the Duke and Duchess of Cam bridge yesterday, it Cambridge House. Their Royal llighnesws the Hereditary Grand Duke and Grand Duchess of Mecklenburg Strelita honoured the performance at her Majesty's Theatre with their presence yesterday evening. Count Reventlow, the Danish Minister, bad an inter view with Earl Grey yesterday, at the Colonial-office. Mr. Lane and Mr. Bogle Smith bad an interview with the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday. Mr. John Wood, Chairman of the Board of Inland Revenue, and Mr. I'ressly had also an interview with the Right Hon. Baronet, at his official residence in Downing-street. A deputation of noblemen and gentlemen, representing the principal railway companies, had an intervien yes terday with Lord John R ussell, at his o fficial residence, in Downing-street, respecting the Audit of Railway Accounts Bill. The Noble Lord was accompanied by the Right Hon. Henry Labouchere, President of the Board of Trade; and by the Right Hon. Sir Edward Ryan, one of the Commissioners of Railways. The deputation was headed by the Earl of Lonadale, and included Mr. George Carr Glynn, Mr. Charles Russell, Mr. Chaplin, the Earl of Powis, Viscount Villiers, Mr. Lacy, Colonel Reid, and Mr. Saunders. The Commission to Inquire into tbe Application of Iron to Railway Structures , . accompanied by Mr. ion o f Engineer to the Brighton line; Mr. Crowe, Locomotive Superintendent, and the Astron omer Royal, proceeded on Wednesday t o make experiments on the Ewell Bridge, on the Epsom and Croydon line. The Marquis of Lansdowne returned to town yester. day, fr, m a visit to her Majesty at Osborne. Sir James Stephen had an interview with Lord John Russell yesterday. Si! 'll - .ontts Fremantle, Chairman of the Customs, bad an interview with the Chancellor of t h e Exchequer yesterl- 7. Sir George Grey arrived in town yesterday from the Queen's marine residence, Osborne, Isle of Wight. Dispatches were sent off yesterday evening, from the 1 Colonial-Office, for the Governors of Ilong-Kong and 'lon. THE w EATHER.—Some may think it absurd to occupy five lines in stating that the weather has been fine or wet, as the case may be, during the wee k ; seeing that most of those who read y nws s pa the country r are already familiar with the fact. And phaps general way, it is absurd ; but there is no knowing how far a country paper may travel, and distant readers, who may even yet be languishing under the protracted drought which we have experienced durin g . the last two months, may beg reatly ref, eslud b y learning that the rain fell for several hours yesterday in this neighbour hood. The value of such a s hower can scarcely be e mated—both garden and field were parched up, an d there was danger that their fruits would be impaired by the continued drought : but perhaps the most important consideration is the thorough washing which th e beck an d se wers would g et —in th is sanitar y point of view the rand wt be regarded as an inestimable boon,— BradvJournal. WEATHER PREDICTIONS.—Mr . James Clayton has furnished us with the following sho short weather table for the borough of Bradford:—July—Monday, l6th, fair; 17 th, slight showers; 18th, , r 4 ain i rain; 25th,19th, 20th, 21st, 22J,slight showers; 2 3d, 28tl ,29 fair ; th - fair,t i, btd slight , showers; 26th, 27th, fair; t W u d ull; 30th, rain; 31't, rain, with thunder liugu e neday, Ist, 2d, stght showers, with fine . intervals; August — Wednesday, ahowers, with high winds; sth, 6th, fair; "h 3 ilo s t i . gh l t 4t e h how ls er th s; 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, fair a'nci t 16th, 17th, 18th, generally ne, with ho t . interva , ls, but occ:iiional shower.—lbid. QUICK TRANSIT OF GOODS TO AND FROM LONDON. —DISPATCH THE OBDER OF THE DAY.—We understand the Midland Railway Company have ma d e arrangements in connexion with the I,9ndon and North IV( Ste eir hands rn Rail way Company, that all goods d elivered into th up to four o'clock r 31.daitl.),e,;iftllgboeitclihel3ilindrsi.npLicoknfdoornd early next morning, by h and Co., and Messrs. Chop:in sind Horns ; and goods received in London are delivered in Bradford and ilia , trick the following afternoon. This, there fore, is " the quickest transit tor goods" yet accomplished between Yorkshire and the metr opolis.—Bradford Observer. THE NEW Car COAL-Exc nxNGE,—This magnifig ccnt building, in Lower Thames•street, nearly facing the Custoro-houEe, is near completion, and already presents a very handsome appearance. It is expected that it will be opened in the course of next month. ate as pantry r that future ed of, p r case pos crs ta inner. .st re estedt he re" order tunill r: ;, Oil ttiti° P Aktri ral/a l4 as De. chant s of Or ;ritsia astora 3ritish t th e gene" a n the en tion r of 6 d very woe' I be .e ant In c see n , ' le ha' f e o o e d for )f the' D atio o icla bi afield otice, ro c% is, 0 : ace °- of the 3ills. N o ble ard of of tb ° Pa rtie d ice as i l op ° 3 pre' corn . it vi as , wit , ' 10011° sla t OP I t lie PlOl