The Sun. — London, England, 1815-03-04 00:00:00

vlan the Mile* ere dis 'banded, and tile Se finer: _still 'employed were these, great ilittabers of persoas who would 'be flyvown an the puhlie u-ould not be inclined to 'abour, yet he was of a different opinion. Per -sons who had been abroad. or pent up for years 'on ship-board,- were always anxious to return to 'labour When they got borne, and this would cause tile price of labour to fall. Then when this hap 'pened, there could be no question that 755. or 'even 725. would be a fair protecting price. He persuaded, that if the Bill was precipitately 'pressed, it won'd have the effect of exciting disaf fection and tumults. Ire was aware that the agri -cultural interest was as important as any other in the country; but if greater, time were not given fin. the consideration of the subject it might be :upposed that the decision had been prbduced by in . trested motives. On these grounds be should 'second the Amendment. _ Mr. BABINGTON agreed with the Hon. Gentle -I:nan who spoke last. While it was admitted that respect should be paid to agriculture, and that the people should he fed from their own soil, the claims of commerce ought not to be forgotten. — Our Navy could not be kept up without foreign trade ; and mminfactnres could not be produced, unless labour and all things dependant upon it ‘vcre procurable at a reasonable rate. The Hon. Gentlemmeiben alluded to the improved state of the Continental manufactories, in proof of the struggle which our trade would have to make for future success, and contended, that as commerce and manufactures were out natural security, we ought to take care not to press any point that might endan - .!..; - er them. tie thought, that as the price of labour and . the rent of lands ought and woulegraduallv sink to what they were in 1804, that SOs. was tar too high as the permanent pro tecting price of Corn. No doubt Corn could be griwn much cheaper in Ireland than in this _coon try, even as cheap as in France, where the export prOhibitory price is fixed at 40s. If, therefore, the Irish farmer bad 635. he would have a sufficient stimulons for extending his agricultural pursuits ; and these, with England, would go very far to- , wards supplying our wants. The unnatural rise thl4t had taken place in rents was owing to the unnatural course of events since . 1804, and they must he reduced to enable our farmers to live. \%e ought not to grow quire-enough for our own consun:ption, in crrder that our manufactures might lie taken in exchange for the portion sup plied by foreign . ers. If we do, we shall derange commerce ; and in order that - -no such derange ment mit. , ,ht be hazarded, a moderate importation would be desirable. Sir J.NEWPQRT declared that nobody was more concerned for the manufacturing interests than. hiinself ; and if he believed that this measure, -while it benefitted the agricidteral interests, would iajure oar manufactures, he would not support it. Eat a great proprirtion of the agricultural • popu lation of the empire were looking to the delibera tions of that House, under unexampled pressure. In Ireland the great proportion of the whole po pulation were wholly dependant unon agriculture, and it they were pot encouraged, they must ab solutely starve, as they had no relief from poor laws. He could prove that the majority of the la-bouring poor in Ireland had been, from the iniddle of November till the middle of Ja no,u y, waiting for agrietiltural labour, and had trot been able to gain a day's .employmept. He would appeal to the manufacturers, a'nd ask them whether they would wish such a • large proportion of the Irish population to be placed in sueh.a situation, and also, whether by withhblding the blessings within their reach, they would hazard keeping that' population in.a con dition that - would snake them dangerous to the rest' of the community (.I.lltp Right Hon. Baro net then einsted, from a statement c.f the popula tion of certain manufacturing districts. ;ti Ireland, the numhers devoted to agriculture, and contrast ed: them with those empro-yed in manufactures, nun{ proved that even in these places, the pro portion of the agricaltarists was as two to oue of the artisans. From this he drew the inference, that the checking of the agriculture of Ire land would be vitally felt in every part of that conntry. He then repeated the arguments he had lately advanced respecting the benefit derived by oor manufacturing interests, from the. interchange with Ireland of their goods for Corn, and con tended that as, by the prohibitiOn of all foreign mantifactured goods, Ireland had been made com pletely dependent upon England, it was but right that she should look to her for relief. At present, however, lie contended, the want of Confidence lit:tween the two countries had become so great, that their commercial intercourse was nearly sus : pended. He deprecated the amendment now pro posed, the interest of which was evidently to put off all farther discussion for another year. It had been urged that the delay would give time fOr pe titioning against the Bill from every part of; the Empire ; but if the same pains hail been taken in Ireland, to produce petitioiss on the opposite side of the question., as had been taken here, against the Bill, there could be no doubt. that they wottld have been proportionably numerous. In all ques tions concerning subsistence, the Honse ought to use its own discretion, and not be swayed by 'Pe titioners; for it was well known that the people at large, so far front considering what Was their real interest, would be ready to purehas'eTa, cheap loaf for the present, though inev . itilei faMine should be the future consequence,4lte 'Right lion. Paronet, after• much further argiiihent in , behalf of Ireland, concluded with strongly depre cating delay as-tending to drive the country into a situation to which every rational titan must la merit to see it reduced. Sir F. Fi.onD considered the amendment to be monstrous, and contended that delay would have the effect of throwing Ireland into a state or agi tation. He would tell those who had asserted that the Irish farmer was not oppresSed by taxes, tinit•there was almost every tax in that country as in -England : there was the Horse the Ser 7 vants"fax, the Window Tax, and there ',was one which the people of England knew nothing about, but which he wished to see introdneed, as it,would fall upon the rich—he meantibe Hearth Tax. He repeated twiny of the arguments that had been adduced in behalf of the just _agrictil . - I theist, and.afs6 r de - seanting on the necessity of but lesrts of the empire being on the most friendly lootlng together, 'lit . b4ving his tiecidecl negative to the amendment. Alderman C. Sst MI said, the ametuhnent shoal(' have his vote, as a pure friend to his country. T. oppose it would look as if the House was afraid to give time for receiving the Petitions, the prayer of which would prove irresistible. Mr. LAMBERT . said, that he had had many op portunities of witnessing the extreme distress of agricultural labourers. Since the last recess more complaints had been made to him of want of work, than he had ever heard since he had been in the commission of the peace. An opinion had gone forth that this measure would raise the price of Corn ; but how was this effect to be produced ? All inquiries into the state of the Corn-market at this time, prove that it is very low and very dull. As'far as proofs would go, he was confident that a rise in the price was not the effect to be feared. Lord MILTON said be was the Representative of a very great and extensive county, great part of which was inhabited by agriculturists, and as great a part also by manufacturers, and it would be his wish to attend as much as possible to the several interests of both. It was extremely de sirable that the manufacturer should not pay too. high a price for his bread; but while he was Will ing to allow that, would it be fair to adopt in their favour.meaSures that would ruin the farmer, and starve the agricultural labourer ? He had that very day held a conversation with a Gentleman just come to town from a part of the - country called Bedford Level, which was a considerable corn district, and the popalatiOn about. 13,000 persons ; and that Gentleman assured him that one 61f of the population were now receiving pa-. rochial relief. He thought, however, the Bill would be much amended and rendered more•pala table by not being made a permanent measure.— The Corn of last year was by no means good, and therefore the Old Corn of 1813 had rose to 70s. which ‘ , :rould certainly not he a ruinous price' at present; but. it things were continued in - this state, ruin must follow. It was absolutely neces-. ' sary something should be done. Whether 725. 0r.765. or 80s. were preferable, was the point to determine. - For his own part, he did not think 80s. toohigha price, but he would leave it to the House to biay, what it should be. He was, therefore, in favour of the Mr. THONI'StiN wished that every word that had been said in that House on the subject could be heard abroad.. The distresses amongst-the agricultural labourers in this country were unexe ampled. Before he had come from Yorkshire, he had witnessed such scenes as would have melted the hardest heart. lit a village, where last year the people complained of the high price of Corn, they now exehrimed against the low price, 'and said, we have.food cheap, but we have no work. We would rather have a high price and some mo ney, than a low price and no money at all. This distress was the effect of the redaction in the price of Corn, and the cause was the importation of to-, reign Corn. It there;had been no importation, we should have had Corn at areasonabie proportion to.the price ototherarticles. The Mann fhcturinginterests certainly had greater protection, than the lauded interests, and this seemed always to have been the policy of the Government. All fo reign manufactures were prohibited, and there • was no article of clothing worn in this country from the cr own o f t h e head •to the sole of the foot, which was not of its own manufacture. But the farmers had no such protection as was athirded to the rnanaacturerS. They could not export their cattle,- their wool. or even the skies of the animals they killed. These privileges of the ,ma nufacturers ought therefore to make them the last people in the world to envy any advantage in con templation f or t h e -f armers . iHe believed there was -not one honest Yorkshire manufacturer who. did not wish the agriculture of the country to be effectually supported—(Hear 1) In carrying on our trade, we know both in our imports and our exports, that many advantages were derived from using our own ships. • It might, however, be con tended, that with many articles we might be sup plied at a. cheaper rate, if foreign ships might be employed without restriction, and this would not be less reasonable than the opposition given to the present measure. In the year 1463, .an Act was passed, prohibiting the importation of foreign corn till the price of it rose to mss. Sd. - the quarter. This prohibition was not attended to ; corn was still imported, and the consequence was, in 1634, from a document of which he read' an extract, it appeared that husbandry had fallen so greatly to decay, that in villages, where formerly there were two or three hundred agricultural labourers, only two or three herdsmen remained. He thought it was possible, if we did not support our agri culture, that a similar falling off in husbandry would again take place, and that villages now containing two or three hundred persons, might be so reduced as to contain but two or three herdsmen. Within the last '2O or 30 years, a great amalgamation of talent and science had been 'de voted. to the improvement of the agriculture of the country ; and the result Was, a great supply of Corn bad been produced, above what had for merly been 'raised, without which he knew not - how the country could have been subsisted, and the condition of the poor had in consequence been much bettered. In this country it was necessary to maintain a..reciprocity of dealing between the agricilltural interest .- and the manufacturers-4f the manufacturers were protected, the Legis lature must also protect the growers of Corn. lie.cautioned the House against being .swayed by the. outcry against the Bill. Ten years ago, When Prince Talleyrand was very anxious that Buonaparte should • make peace with this Country, , in a Note svritten to him to press his. subject, his %fords • were—" Leave England in peace,. and.. her Government will . he., constantly directed by popular clamour, which we can at any tinse anti:one and encourage—they will never form schemes of so disposing of the population of the _ Country, as to make one portion.of it be useful to the support of the other. Leave England in peace, and most of her Nobility and Gentry will squander their great riches in irauce, to enrich us, , and enslave their own country." This was the language which he had then held. Whether it - was true or not, he could not take upon hin►- self to say. lie was not atraid of England being enslaved by France; and he hoped, by au undue at- tendon to popular prejudices, the opinions of Prie,o tineyVaila on OW. Oovetntuttlt. Woqld nbt be jrntifiech Mr. Pa E;;IIIN observed, since last year the view taken of this subject had in many instances been so changed, that those who then petitioned against the measure proposed, no longer appeared to consider such a step expedient. Next to the agriculture of the country, he contended the ma nufacturers ought to he supported ; but the tax which this measure could in any case impose on them, was as nothing coMpared with the wages they received. I-It thought every man of calcu lation must perceive this was one of the wisest schemes that had ever been adopted to equalize the prices of provision and labour. In every re spect he thought it promised great advantages to the country, and therefore be felt it his duty to give it his warmest support. Mr. Martam4 bad uniformlrdeclared himself' favourable to the principle of the measure, but against fixing the protecting price at 80s.. He understood the arguments used by an Hon. Mem- her in this debate, to be founded on the connec tion between the Country Banks and the price of Corn. He considered nothing had been shewn to justify them in the importation price so high; ,and only with a view of opposing that price, did he intend to vote for the amendment. Mr. PROTHEIWE was hostile to the measure. — If 80s. were mined as the protecting price, it was his opinion the average prices would be very little below it. , Mr. WARDELL Stipporte'm the Bill, and com plained of the yputation thrown on the conduct of an Hun. Member by another, who had spoken of the connection hew een the Country banks and the price 'of corn. Those who knew that Hon. Gentleman, knew him incapable of acting from such base motives as had been ascribed to him. Mr. MARRYATT Oat what had fallen trOm him had been ntiseenstrhed. He hied tneant to cast no imputation on any one ; be had only re ferred to the influence. which . a paper currency had on the price Of corn. . 111 r. LOCKHART was not surprised that a great, outcry was raised against, this measure after the descriptions 'which had been given of it by a Chief Magistrate, and by several Members of that _ j . flonSe. The prices . of Wheat and Bread,' he ob served; did not always tally. In the cbtintry, at sonic fifty or sixty'miles distant, the price of Bread was generally twopence under the London price, and it was a common thing for it to be sent to town by the coach, and sold at a profit then. The public mind had beet) inflamed by mis-statements ; it. had formerly been slaeivn, that when Wheat was at 903. the qtrarter, the Quartern Loaf code - lie' sold at 13y. yet a certain Chief Magistrate- Ud• lately said, at 80s. its price must be from 15 to He was not the advocate of any particular class of nten, he fresired to do that which would pr,).ve 'beneficial to all classes. He anxiously hoped another year .rinild not be suffered to piss before this measure was ad4ted. If it were not carried eren the manufacturer would suffer - , and the free holder must know, that for the penny or three halfpence which' be might save in a loaf, he would lose ten 'times the amount of such saving in se curity. Those most anxious to oppose this Bill would be found to be persons more solicitous to gain popularity . than studious to understand the merits of the question. The labourers, who were now reduced to the situation of what . was called in the country rounds:nen, would, if this measure were not agreed to, soon become mendicants, and . mendicants, where bread could not be raised. Mr. PROTHEROE explained. Mr. ELLIOT said. that when a measure of a si milar nature r rop - osed last'year, be had voted against it. He thought then that the tihie was ill adapted for it, and . oat sufficient information had not been obtained ;Ipon a subject So di:l l ..cullt and . at the same time so delicate. No man was, gc+,o rally speaking, more averse to 'political 'regula tions upon such subjects than himself. Notwith- , standing this general feeling, yet, upoit the infor mation that was now before the House, he could not avoid thinking, :hat both for the protertion of our agriculture, and the preservation of the power Of the country, some, regulationS were now ab solutely necessary. As to the principle of free and, unrestricted commerce being a great good, no body could deny it ; but we were not in a situa-• tion to apply those general principles to the p-re sent question. The inland trade was entirely tinkler the - protection of the State; but as to foreign trade, there were two parties to it, and it must deptmd, not only on the wishes of our Government, but its duration must also depend upon the volition of ano- thcrsuite. France had 'wade regulations, for her Corn \ trade, by which, when Corti - was above a certain price, it was not to be exported. It did not ,sig nify what were the wants of other nations:: she j►►stly said, that they must first take care of their own people. • The market of France might there- fore lair us when we most wanted it whereas Ireland afforded an infinite field of improvement, and could -be easily r,ade a fruitful and exhaust less granary to the whole kingdom. In this re- _ . spect, he spoke not only froth his own observation, but from all the evidenee that had been examined on that subject. The security of mrintei•nal supply of Corn was the great shield of our commerce and de- fence of our manufactures. This security ought not to be left to hazard, or to the influence of a Ateign policy. . Sir JAMES SHAW desired to repel in the strongest manner thoSe insinuations which had been made as to the conditct of these %vim Opposed theprs, sent - question being governed by an anxiety ifOr : popularity. For his own part, there was no per 7 son, the tenour of whose life admitted .less the application of' such a charge than his -own. He held in his hap(' a paper, containing the regulation of the assize of London for s;..verai . vears, by which it appeared, that when wheat , . teas at 35.5. in Lon- don, its ordinary price when the average was 80s. the quartern loaf W S 15 7 ' 1 4 . 1. It ought not to he forgotten, that the Committee Ivhich sat two years ago, recommended an exclusive price of 1355. although the last was contented with 80p: Mr. ROBINSON begged leave 'to contradict! the! worthy Alderman, and to sbew that his facts *ere false, and, of course, his inferences untrue,: al. though he was prepared to dispute his inferences, had the facts been incontestible. Upon the clam , parisoeoof the averag es f o r the last ten years of the maritime districts with the assize of London,. it N ppetered that the general average had exceeded I • ll assk.• of Lotlthn ; rtne. roure, ti:"t ; the 11-ayontity of the Hon. Altteitr ;i, Late averaKe of the bondon itrict:s tl;llsft"r t that of the maritime (Ct. trim ; to t he n•rottot • 3s. 3d. • Lord A. Ilitstitotl askcti, what hehel' t measure could produce to farmers, if it " 1 ",:' lower the price of corn, as the Right 1j07)•G" T : man asserted ? The oniv way it coeld any advantage was by increasing the Free It t"`` article, which he had no doubt %%Wild be the case' Mr. PonE CAnEW supported_the Bill, , b ee n Mr. BARING complained th a t no thing 0:14 1 5 said to prove that the price of SOs. proposed ' l : 3 really wanted. The wh o l e diffi cu l t y o f the ":"ci he conceived, was, wh e th er the I to en able land would make s o m e c o ncess i on , to e nable t'.: the farmers to cultivate th e groun d ? Were:-Ib high price of corn to cont i nue , cur nr:ikliactur-ets would go to other kingdoms in search Of breg li our population would decrease, and the conot r Y might indeed become an exporting -conotry• —.° He thought it the duty of the Gentlemen on tb°, other side of the qu e stiO n t o fi x t h e ex t en t of protection necessary to keep the country in a state of cultivation The CHANCELLOR of the ExenEkuot oo °l3 . take atuither opportunity of replying to the arga' ments used by the Hon. Gentleman. The goes tion now before the House NI/a-, not One ut reg ti ; lation or limitati on of. aver:ge or hq merely whether any legislatlye measure -. 1 1 - ' ll ` be adopted. It could not be expected, theritor' that those subjects should have been disetissell. Mr. WHITBREAD thanked the Cheineeliw , t 6 , 1 1 Exchequer for pla c i ng t h e quest i on i n i ts r ig" point of view. H e was conv i nce d that the ctf' s.l, of this measure would be disappointment to tb e farmer, as it would not supply him with ally pital to invigorate his culture of the land. ' l ' l :i time was passed also a t w hi c h t h e measure c ol' have had any influence on the ha rve3t for the o°''' , season. He concluded by objecting to a tetll o ' rary measure, and as h e w i s h e d to refove I t ° agitation of the p u bli c m i n d , d ec l ared t h a t should support the Amendment. Mr. ROB . INSON anti Mr. F.kr,ior explained. he Mr. LI usKiss oN was one - o f t h ose who. !Oust ".-e classed among the men want i ng common 3 el" and understandi ng , f or h e t h ought the propojec:l measure would lower the price of Corn, or ai lc"' keep - it fluctuating between 725. and 80s. if S"' should be the standard. The Bill would, in fac t ' provide a remedy to the high prices which were oo contemplated with so muc h apprehension. G ki ,forbid that proper attention and respect shoo not he shown to the petitions of this snbice isi f but the House were to act; from the impulse - n their oWn judgment. (HeAr, hear !) llc c o c -eluded by exp ress i ng hi s satisfaction that' Right lion. Friend persisted in the principle Il i, affording suffici ent p rotect i on to the agi turist.—Mr. IlArallo explained. The question was then put, and a division t° °l4 place, when the numbers were—, _ . . Against the Motion c2i3 Fur it .56 Majoriti in fa7uur of Ministers .--162 Mr. BARING then moved that the Bill be CO I :, mittcd on Monday se'nnight, when a second 01. vision took place, and the numbers were-- Against the Amendment 215 For it Majority against the Amendment —l7l The Bill was then ordered to be committed Monday next. , 7 . 3 e When the Gallery was re - opene d , the 10.,1,(„ Was in a Committ ee on t h e M ut i ny : FITZGERLD was commenting on the exp're s ! i( ; ,li of Hon. Me m be rs , who had accused his Friend (Lord Palmerston) of indecent col)ti u ";,; and had ma d e some pecu li ar observatims 09 Chairman. Mr. WITITDREAD meant no resection on' t r e Chairman ; b u t t h oug h t t h e proceeding 09, Bill at that l a t e h our i m p roper i n a Publ'c m o '',f particul a rly u n d er t h e circustances of the O s ' at present. Lord PALMERSTON never thought that wh ell Bill was ordered,,it was necessary to . give a scc ° ' notice. , - lfre After some farther conversation betwcet) Bennet, Lord Palmerston, Lord Miltoo, Sutton, Lord I'rohy, the Chancellor of the '",3 chequer, Mr. Whitbread, Sir S. Ron illy, ° aid Mr. Fitzg,eiald, the Bill was or d ere d to be c° ulitted on Monday next. • icor Adjourned at Half past O ne o ' c l oc k t ill )I°l nexL METEOROLOG (CAL JO U 1") Thermometer. I I Weather'. . I. J • i... • . . IN 4 . • VI 1 ..., ~.., ". .' ~ .71 %.* ‘.. 2 , , . ~• :I . ..• Z , .1, ..... • a t' g ' .`i 7 • ' 1 ;I'4 2 :-' -ri es' i. . 1 :,.. pi. .-; ~i. , , _,-- ___, , F e b. 01 0 0 0 • inches Fa ir q , 18 40 140 4G .13 :30.50 Fair Cit'l" 19 45 46 4R 45 .25 i)(.. IN' 20 48 47 50 45 29.75 .01 Rain* p().:, 1 49 50 55 48 .90 .12 Cloudy Fet , 22 50 49 53 42 30.20 - i lZi . r c .p .i „ 0 0 .41 23 45 47 51 44 .25 , 24 47 48 50 4G .10 Do. • ' .13 . ' 4 Boisterous. COAL - MARKET, MARCH 3. __,„„. ~i, ' COAL -MARKET, m i me Ships at Market. Ships sold. G Neweaktle . 384 .. . : 7{ Su►►derla.►id I - Cinders.... 1 Scotch Coal Price , .40$. 0,.1. to 4 4 : . Oil' 40s. Od. to 4 ' . 013 , Od. to t yi• 365. od. to ~.....---- r BIB.THS. BalrnriL st i e n r cn it ln i ls a - l i l n ., n ;f fi a el e d a s, ug t i h it e ei L ! dy of G. NV. Mariouriottet, :14, On Sunday week; at Fluchitir, the Lady of A. P• f A , O Surgeon of the Roal Navy, ct'a dauhter. , ri f a fa. the Ist inst. i y n I.llc.unisliury-squ g are, Mrs. I, S r • ." son. MARRIED. °f oe ci t l :4; Otuthe'2d ult. at Berwick, IVlr..Truncs el aerat Post-Office, Edinburgh, to Miss Marg-art * daughter of Mr. Robert Car, Apothecary, Bervicl‘l ;" DIED. tbefi' ``r` Yesterday se'nnight, at Syston Park; near" Otan V 81 years, Sir John Thorol, Bart. f si, College, 0n Saturday last, the Rev.-Thomas Tyrrell, c College, Oxford. ' Amossocalmmwearmws............., , ...".".''''''' et: 1 . 1 4, 1 !/ LONDON.: Piinted by J. B. CARSTAIRS, e buildings; and published by W. A. SCRIPPS, ° A ' at the SUN-OFFICE, No. !11, Strand; where 440 merits. Orders, Letters (Dust-Paid). &c. must bead