The Sun. — London, England, 1849-02-06 00:00:00

Would exercise a little patriot‘e discrecien in merely re Porting those speeches which were worthy ot being re corded, the others would soon be very materially s hortened.—(Laughter and cheers.) Mr. HUME thought half en hour a sufficient time that no Member ought to exceed an hour. Sir It. PEEL was of opinion that every speech, Would be materially improved if it were limited to one 11°11 r• — (Hear, heir) Ile certainly had heard the Hon. Member for Montrose frequently exceed that time.— ( Laughter.) He believed, however, they were all de linquents. There was a tendency to make speeches of undue length, and every one must feel that a great many Speeches would have been greatly improved if the ay r g h u i - s meats of the s p ea k e rs had been more condense d. was the general impression, an 4 if every Member wo uld act upo n i t i t wou ld h ave a f a r better effect than the the m- Position o f any f orma l ru l e . He did not approve of Propositi on t h at li on . Members should not be allowed to exc ee d an h our, because many Lion. Members might think it gave them a vested right to speak during that ti tle, and that they were conferring a fa vour on the " l ouse when they s poke for a more limited period.— however, (Laughter.) Th er e were many speeches, c urtailment which w ou ld h ave g i reat ly suffered by e c a lluded to speech es ma d e n either on the —lie of or iginal motions nor in reply . some of the speeches of Berke, Canning, and limitothei emi nent men; and, therefore, by attempting . . excesses the House would run the risk ot depriving itself and the public of great instruction.—(Fleas, hear.) He tins that Hon. Members would all act on the principle laid down by the Hon. Member for Manchester. A great deal o f time might be saved if Hon. Members would consider their arguments—(Hear, hear) —and Parti cu l ar l y ,when it was their intention to speak, if they Would attend for a day or t wo and listen to the argu ments, and not repeat those already advanced and dis - Posed of.—(Hear, hear.) By so doing they would effect a reform much more useful than by any dry rule which Might be imposed. The great principle oa which the 'louse ought to act was, to make no distinction between the members of the Government and other Members— between those who favoured the House with original !notions and those who did not. What did the Hon. Member mean by a Minister speaking in reply ? Did he mean every Minister, or merely the one who Might immediately follow the mover ? It fre quently happened that a Minister closed the debate. Now supposing the Minister following the mover to exceed one hour, was any other Minister to speak, or was it intended that only one should address the Rouse ? The adoption of a rule of this kind, without mature consideration, would lead to great inconvenience. It was generally admitted that too much time was con sumed iu speeches, and that too little was devoted to business ; and the Hon. Gentleman opposite seemed ready to offer himself as a sacrifice in the first in stance.—(Laughter.) Mr. HUME—If the Right Hon. Gentleman will, I Will.—(Loud laughter.) Sir R. PEEL—I will.—(Continued laughter.) As the Hon. Member took the opportunity of so frequently addressing the House he trusted that he would set a good example, and would not be offended if, at the ex fliration of some fif t y m i nu t es , he should receive a gentle int that his hour was almost gone.—(Laughter.) He trusted that those who had been in the habit of speak ing ten minutes wo u ld adhere to that rule, and that ishose who usu a lly s p o k e an hour and a half would con . ne themselves much within the limits prescribed. — (Rear, hear, and laughter.) Sir R. INGLIS said the object of the Hon. Member was to save the time of the House, but it was not at all Unlikely that it would have the effect of making the lis aLtimum time proposed the minimum.—(Laughter.) : ell e % COBDEN, as a member of the Committee,, v:ishd to state the grounds on which he shou ld su pp ort toe motion. The Committee were generally of opinion that the delay in the conducting of public business was a great grievance, and every one left the Committee with the belief that very little had been done to reme d y the ev il. A similar motion to the present recei ved the s upport of four members out of twelve, and he did not : l ink that a very strong f ee ling prevailed against it; but c general impression seemed to be that the evil wo u l d be best corrected by the force of public opinio n and the discretion of Hon. Members. The Right Hon. Baronet ! t e emed to rest hi s h opes on so me vague understanding that tllon. Memb e rs would limit their speeches to a cert a i n time. He (Mr. Cobden) had no faith in any s uch understanding being observed, and he believed that 11 3 much time was likely to be wasted in the present as in former sessions. No one could deny that Honour able Members were often in the habit of re peating arguments which had been used by others, and the fact was the House was flooded with repe tition. —(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Cobden) had fre quently abstained from speaking when the arguments which he had intended to use were so well put by other Ron. Members. With respect to the suggestion of the Noble L or d t h at a charge might be brought against a Minister, such charge must be founded on some public policy, and his colleagues would have to defend him on public grounds, and therefore it would not rest with one individual to answer a three hours' speech, but his po licy might be defended by a dozen parties. The mem bers of the Government might be attacked by the whole Rouse, and as they formed only a small portion of the Rouse, he did not see any injustice in affording them some extra portion of time.—(Hear, hear.) He be lieved that a limitation of time would much improve the quality of the speeches.—(Hear, bear.) The great fault was that they were too diffuse; that Hon. Members did not keep sufficiently to the question, and were too a pt to quote from Hansard, and the reports to which all 4 ° ll . Members had access. If an Hon. Member had anything to say, he could say it in an hour. It was Only when an Hon. Member had nothing to say, and 1 1 . 1 1 d ,not know what he was going to say, that he was The to speak for more than an hour.—(Laughter.) lhe ease of Burke was the most unhappy instance that Fouli have been cited by the Right Hon. Baronet ; for it was recorded that he generally emptied the House w hen he rose . He was called the " diun er-bell" of the Muse; and it was said that " He went on refining, And thought of convincing while they thought of dinin and he thought every one must admit that if Burke's llopeetiecrtiShtidbeencut into four they would have been speeches.—(Hear, hear.) th u at to consider, NEWDEGATE begged the House they limited the prlege of discussing givereat question s in that House the result would be to ad v n e tae o to b assemblies out of the House, who would con sider the right of discussion as solely confined to them offteeeNoZ.na look upon that House as the mere record - cated a their enactteents.—(Hear, hear.) He depre what any a ppeal on this question to those who recorded both din th at House, because it was only just that pees o f a question should be heard, and there had been instances when he had occasion to lament that the Public had not had that opportunity.—(Hear.) The House divided, when there appeared — For Mr. Gibson's prop os iti on •Against it ........... . Majori ty aea i nst the restrictien —34 THE S. Lord Fr "VANE brought up ADDRE the r eport on the Address IQ On the Majesty. question that the report be read a second time, trurauseer faorrqoucies of GRANBY said he hoped he would be upyi ng the attention of the House whilst Thr ads a few observations ou the Speech from the °t ic • That Speech did not place the peculiar position eanzda prospects of the country in a fair light. It greatly ...._ggerated the prosperity of the manufacturing and 'o'D'oloutnercial classes, whilst it made no mention whatever r agricultural and colonial distress. With respect 0 , th e paragraph w hi c h state d t h at " t h e p rese nt aspect ti t an irs" h a d enabled her Majesty" to make large reduc es on the estimates of last year, he was quite sure that every one in th e H ouse wo uld b e most anx i ous f or suc h re ductions w h en t h ey were pract i cable, but he must b e permitted to ask wh a t pr o spe c t s thi s year h e ld out w hi c h wo uld warrant th e m in reducing the es ti mates. w h en t h e '",Luse was called upon last year to in crease t h em ? (Rear, hear.) He looked in vain for any distinction be tween 1848 and 1849. The Noble Lord at the h ea d o f the Government said that last year there was a convul sion, but there was no convulsion when he proposed increased estimates. At that time the Hon. Member for the West Riding (Mr. Cobden) had just made his famous prophecy that there was no probability of war. —(Hear, hear.) But what was the present aspect of affairs?—(Hear, hear.) Let them look to the Speech, and they would see announcements there that a rebellion of a formidable character had broken out in the Pun jaub—(Hear, hear)—and that a spirit of disaffection still existed in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) At the same time, the state of the colonies was most distressing; many of them were on the very verge of insurrection. Was it wise or prudent, then, to select such a time as this for large reductions in the army and navy?—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the omission of a n y mention of the distress in the agricultural districts, he could not suppose the Government were ignorant of its existence, or of its intensity. Did they imagine that the growing conviction that the free-trade system had failed would be crushed by such means as these?—(Hear , h ear. ) He re membered well the prophecies which were made when those measures were passed, that wages would rise and bread be had for half-price. How had these prophe cies been verified? He would just show the House ',hat was the condition of the labouring classes in Jeteiceetershire and Lincolnshire before and since the t i ? s ing of thes e measures . In those counties the old i j n ges were t we l ve s hilli ng s. For a family of five per let them take— Malf a stone of coarse flour to each mouth, at s. d. 26, 2d. ••• 5 5 ••• ••• ••• ••• 31b • of meat, at bid. 1 F ree trade Total expenses per week wages, 10s. Flour, 2i stones at ls. 10d. Ile ttt) at sid. ... to know also whether any account of the tariff of Por- • tugal or Spain had been received since the last assem blage of Parliament ? Last session a motion was made requiring our consuls to send over those tariffs, but those orders never had been obeyed. lie was the more sur prised at this because ou r friendly rela'ions with Por tu gall never had been disturbed, and there was a com petent person at the Court of Lisbon to furnish such documents, and, although our intercourse with the Court of Spain was broken, he understood from the Noble Lord at the close of last session that we still re tained a Consul there perfectly capable of discharging his duty in protecting the subjects of this realm, and in watching over the interests of our trade and commerce. Whilst he was upon. this subject he might be per mitted to answer the inquiry made by the Noble Lord (Palmerston) the other night, as to whether, in revenge for the affront we had received from Spain, he (Mr. Bankes) would go to war with her ?—(Hear, and a laugh.) The Noble Lord at the same time assured him that he must not take to himself the credit of having caused the expulsion of the Spanish Minister. He begged to assure the Noble Lord he never assumed nor desired to assume any credit in the matter, for in his mind there never had been a more bungling piece of business, nor ono less likely to vindicate the honour of . _ this country. The Minister of Spain was allowed to re main hero for many days after our representative at the Court of Spain had arrived in London, affording a proof of the greatest insult one nation could inflict upon another.—(Hear, hear.) It he (Mr. Banker) had had the management of affairs, he trusted the Spanish Minister would not have been allowed to remain here, as Ambassador, for as many hours. M. Isturitz was, no doubt, a gentlemen of the highest character, fit to repre sent so gallant a nation ; but he should have been at once informed that he could no longer remain here as the Minister of Spain. In reply to the Noble Lord's inquiry, he begged to say that he would not go to war with Spain; but, if he had the power, he would find out who was the originator of the insult she had offered to this country. The real originator might be found, perhaps, in England, sitting at that moment on the Treasury bench. The Noble Lord had been pleased to say that the Opposition had become a war party, a charge which came with a very ill grace from the Noble Lord ; for, if they were open to such a charge, it was because they had taken the word of Ministers for it that the estimates of last year were necessary for the public service, and had assisted in carrying those estimates through Parliament, when the effect of an oppositb course would have been that the plans of the Government would have been defeated, and Ministers would have lost their seats in the Cabinet. The words of the Noble Lord were, that the force then proposed was " necessary to a man." " Who, it had been said, " asked them to con gratulate the Crown upon the improving state of commerce, manufactures, and the revenue?" With reference to the expression of " satisfaction," which appeared on that subject in the Address, he (Mr. Banker) could not join in that expression when he found that not one Member representing the manufac turing interest had said there was a progressive im provement in manufactures. Would the Honourable Members for Manchester and the West Riding of York shire say that the manufacturing interests were in such a state as to warrant expressions of congratulation? But, till they did so, could Ministers expect Honourable Gentlemen, from complaisance, to join in the expressions of satisfaction employed in the Address? With respect to the revenue, what was the result of the balance-sheet put that morning into the hands of Honourable Mem bers? The last item was the excess of expenditure over income, amounting to 796,419/.—(Hear, hear)—then there was a sum of China money, 539,3051., a casual source of revenue; and the produce of the sale of old stores, 308,4151, was an item of the same kind. Yet Ministers called on the House, not to congratulate the Crown, but to express satisfaction at a progressive im provement of the revenue. Another million had been struck off by the removal of the corn duties; and the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) had now bound himself never to resort again to that source of revenue. " Would you not have done better," they had been told, " had you taken a fixed duty?" But now the Noble Lord said the fixed duty would have dwindled down. Lord J. RUSSELL—You would have had it now. Mr. BANKES thought that was the most satisfac tory part of the prospects for the revenue he had yet heard of.—(Hear, hear.) When there was no more old stores to fall back upon, the Noble Lord would turn to a fixed duty. Yet it was in such a state of-affairs that the House were to be called on, the day after to morrow, to make a new grant for Ireland. Mr. M. GIB6ON believed it was true, as now stated, that the English trade in Brazil or the personal rights of individuals connected with that trade were not in so satisfactory a state as they ought to be.—(Hear, hear.) But he attributed that state of matters to the hostile policy pursued towards Brazil with reference to the slave-trade. They were seizing Brazilian ships under the authority of an Act passed by this House without the sanction of any treaty; they were acting only on the principle of might over right. But could it be matter for surprise if some difficulties still remained for trade to contend with, difficulties which had been created by persevering in a system of re striction ? Every one felt that there was an improvement in manufactures and trade.—(Hear, hear.) But every one knew at the same time that it required all the skill, enterprise, and industry that could be brought to bear on the trade of the country to keep it in a state of progressive prosperity. The country gentle men had, as the friends of tenant-occupiers, taken an extraordinary course. First, they did not ask protec tion. Tbat was evaded. The Honourable Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli) never mentioned the word, but spoke of reciprocity.—(Hear, hear.) But Honourable Gentlemen threw censure oa the Govern ment, because it pointed to retrenchment and economy. The smallest hint that there would be economy in the public expenditure, and reduction in the national arma ments, was received in a tone calculated to excite sur prise. Those Hon. Gentlemen ought to answer the question put by the Hon. Member for Montrose. What would they have for the farmer?—(Hear, hear.) They came forward as the friends of tenant•occupiers, and yet did all they could to discourage the Executive from retrenchment and economy.—(Hear, hear.) The farmers called for the repeal of the malt tax; an Hon. Member from Essex had made an appeal on the subject. How could such taxes be reduced unless the expenditure were reduced? He was connected with agriculture himself; he felt his interests in the hands of Hon. Gentlemen ,• and he must be permitted to say that if they continued their present course the country would hold them re sponsible for the obstruction of economical measures, and the maintenance of large and unnecessary establish ments. He should be sorry to see agitation carried beyond the point of giving instruction—(lronical cheers)—be cause there could not be any safe legislation which was not founded on public opinion, and it was necessary to form a sound public opinion. The Royal Speech and the Address spoke of " attachment to our institutions," and of " the Constitution , founde d on the principles of free dom and justice." That was rather a lofty flight. He wished the tone of the speech had been a little more qualified. He did not like the " matchless Consti tution" doctrine. He thought there were faults, and there were institutions to which there was anything but attachment. He did not believe the Roman Catholics of Ireland were attached to the Established Church of Ireland, or the Dissenters to the Established Church of England. But he wished to know how Muck had been the free gifts of the Government to the people —how far their privileges under the constitution had been wrested from their rulers by the strenuous efforts of the people themselves ? Therefore ho did not dis courage the fair and legitimate discussion of public questions. The Hon. Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire, in calling attention to the expenditure, was assisting the Government to resist the pressure of pro fessions which, if the Executive Lad not something to lean against, must hurry it into a reckless and extrava gant course. He would only further express the hope that the Government would persevere in its commercial policy, and remove the differential duties which still deformed the tariff. The tenant farmers had a right to say the principle of free competition should be carried out.—(hear, hear.) He hoped Ministers would bring in a good and whole measure on the navigation laws; if it were as complete as the measure for the repeal of the corn-laws, they would earn and merit the gratitude of the country. Sir J. TYRELL contended that in noticing the omis sions of the Royal Speech the Hon. Gentlemen were doing only what the Noble Lords opposite had done when they used to tear royal speeches to pieces. Seeing the Indecent haste with which the Government had adopted the financial scheme of the Hon. Member for the West Riding, it might be imagined that they were actuated by a desire to vamp u p hi s c h arac ter as a prophet. If Mi nisters adopted the Hon. Member's plan, the least they could do was to give him a place on the Treasury bench. The Government might depend upon it that the agriculturists would not' be destroyed without an effort being m a d e on t h e i r b e h a lf. Meetings on an ex tensive scale wer e a b ou t t o ta k e place in the agricultural c t s, the ed aid t he f causesom some noble the h hl e landed convertsin interest anotherhad pllatelyae obtained in e. Was it fair that agriculture should be exposed to com petition with t h e w h o l e world when at the present moment several articles of manufacture were protected by a duty of 10 per cent. ?—(A Member on the Minis terial side—" Not cotton articles.") He did not allude to cotton ; some persons had nothing but cotton in their beads.—(A laugh.) lie had felt it his duty to support Ministers in their estimates last session, but in conse quence of their conduct upon that point ho would sup port them no longer, and would regard the proceedings of his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Ex chequer with great caution. Mr. WODEHOUSE expressed his concurrence in all that had fallen from his Noble Friend (the Marquis of Granby) with reference to the distressed state of agri culture, and declared that there was every prospect that all persons connected with the occupancy of land would be exposed to intense suffering. Mr. FRE WEN also said that the agricultural interest was in a very depressed state, in proof of which he re ferred to the fact that the Noble Lord (the Member for South Durham) who moved the Address had at present several farms in Sussex thrown upon his hands. In the. Weald of Sussex and West Kent it was impossible to find tenants for farms, even at greatly reduced rents. Half the farmers in Kent would be unable to pay the hop duty. Mr. J . O'CONNELL explained that in what he had said on the first night of the session he did not mean to say that Lord Minto had encouraged the promoters of disorder in the Papal States; he merely stated the fact that Lord Minto received Sterbini, Cicerovaccio, and other agitators a t hi s h ouse . What, he asked, would have been said, if a foreign envoy to this country had received th e celebrated Coffey at his residence? which Mr. agricultureP.BENN E - r bore testimony to the distress under was goodla la o qualityurie „ and s stated for3s that rquar ter. he had lately seen wh ea t o f P The farmers were con; t e o discharge pe many of their labourers, and to reduce the wages of those whom ret4ined. Mr. HENRY was happy to have it in his power to in form the House that the manufacturing interest was at present in a state of considerabl prosperity. He was connected with manufacturing establishments in Glas gow, Yorkshire, Belfast, and other places, and was also a considerable exporter, and therefore could speak upon this point with some degree of experience.—(clear.) The evidences of the fact were unmistakeable, and any person who would take the trouble to make inquiry upon the subject must ascertain that a course of prosperity was dawning upon the manufacturing interest. Mr. HUME said it appeared from the confession of the Hon. Member for Essex that the country gentlemen had supported large establishments, and that without their aid the Government could not have maintained them. That fact would not be lost upon the country. The country gentlemen who had taken part in the pre sent discussion had not explained how Ministers could serve the tenant-farmer unless by reducing the expendi ture to the lowest rate at which the Government of the country could possibly be carried on. It was his opinion that matters were assuming a better aspect in the manu facturing districts, and for that reason he would assent to the 11th paragraph of the Address; but he could not admit that the Speech from the Throne was alto gether satisfactory. lie concurred with the Honourable Member for Surrey in thinking that the Speech should either be treated as a document unworthy of notice, or should contain a plain and honest exposition of what Ministers intended to do in the course of the session. The debate on the first night of the session turned chiefly on foreign policy, almost to the exclusion of all consideration of domestic affairs. The Noble Lord at the head of foreign affairs made a dexterous reply, from which it appeared that England had assumed the character of police-officer to the whole world, and that whenever a king quarrelled with his subjects we were to step in and put matters to rights.—(Hear, hear.) He begged to remind the Houso that in the course of last session several hundred petitions were presented praying for economy, together with other petitions, signed by 2,500,000 persons, praying for a reform of the House of Commons. There was also a paragraph de ploring the insurrection in Ireland, and desiring a con tinuance of the powers that now existed for the preser vation of peace in that country. In the present condition of Ireland he would not object to that continuance; for, in a time of great difficulty, the Noble Lord who had had those extraordinary powers confided to him had exercised them with great discretion and judgment. He thought, however, that they ought not to be continued longer than was absolutely necessary, and that the Government ought to apply itself to the prevention of their neces sity in future. Now, with regard to England; was it not the demand for reform that rendered her unquiet last year? and were they now to shrink from inquiry into the revenue, or to refuse relief from the burdens of tax ation? Yet the Speech said nothing of the kind. It spoke of reductions in the different establishments, which he supposed meant bringing them within the income; but no notice whatever was taken of the revision:of taxation, although that bad been promised at the time the income tax was passed. Petitions had been presented last year for an increased representation of the people. Now, he found that in Canada, where the responsibility of self government existed, Lord Elgin had conducted affairs with great satisfaction to the people, and on the 18th of January, in his Speech to the Assembly, he said he was disposed to believe that an increase in the representation would be attended with considerable advantage, and he recommended that subject to their best consideration. And why did he do so? Because last year there were petitions from all parts of the country canting for a change. He admitted that it was gratifying on the 10th of April last to see all the respec table classes standing forward for the preservation of order; but what led to it ?—The demand for change by the working classes. He believed, however, that much more had been made of that than it deserved, and that advantage was taken of it to increase the military and naval establishments. But he would admit that if the Government refused all concessions as regarded the re presentation of the country they must be prepared by force to keep down the spirit of the people. There was only one other point that he would notice—that in the Speech the state of the colonies was entirely overlooked. There was an allusion to the rebellion in the Punjaub, but none to the rebellion at Ceylon or at the Cape of Good Hope—(Hear, hear)—and when he reflected that in these two rebellions more lives were lost than in the insurrection in Ireland, he thought that the omission must have been made to cover the misconduct which led to them. To the tenth paragraph of the Address (which was to this effect—" That, whilst rejoicing that the insurrection in Ireland has not been renewed, we unite with her Majesty in deploring the ex istence of a spirit of disaffection; and that our serious consideration will be devoted to the intimation of her Majesty, that her Majesty is compelled with regret to ask for a continuance, for a limited time, of those powers which in the last session, were deemed by Parliament to be necessary for the preservation of the public tran quillity"), therefore he should propose to add the fol lowing words:—" And we assure your Majesty that we shall, without delay, direct our serious attention to the consideration of the rebellions which have unhappily occurred in the course of last year in Ceylon and at the Cape of Good Hope, in order to ascertain the extent as welt as the causes of such rebellious; and we shall also endeavour to ascertain the causes of the distress and dis content that exists in British Guiana, the Mauritius, and other places." And to the next paragraph (which was as follows:—" That we most sincerely share with her Majesty the satisfaction which her Majesty feels at the revival of commerce from those shocks which at the commenc.:ment of last session were to be deplored; that we learn with gratification that the condition of the manufacturing districts is likewise more en couraging than it has been for a 'considerable period, and that the state of the revenue is one of pro gressive improvement"), he should propose to add an amendment, alluding to the unequal pressure of taxa tion, the extension of the franchise, and, what hescon sidere I most important, the reform of that House. He did not wish to take the sense of the House on these amendments, as he had not given notice of his intention to more them, but he felt so strongly what ought to be done, that he was anxious to put them on record. The Address was then ;read, and on the 10th para graph, Mr. HUME moved his first amendment. Mr. G. BANKES seconded the motion. He concurred with the Hon. Gentleman that matters such as the amendment referred to ought to have been notified in the Speech from the Throne, and, if they were not, they should be mentioned in the Address. He concurred in the amendment, and if his Hon. Friend did not divide the House upon it, it was because, from not knowing what the Speech would be, he was unable to give notice of his intention to move the amendment. That also was the reason why some friends of his were absent the other night, for his Honourable Friend near bins would have had many more votes if they had had the opportunity of giving them more notice. The amendment was then put and negatived without a division. On the second amendment being moved by the Hon. Member for Montrose, Mr. S. CRAWFORD said he approved of the amend ment, but ho was at a loss to understand the use of pro posing this and the former if the sense of the House were not taken upon them. They were too good to be allowed to drop; and he therefore appealed to his Hon. Friend not to permit this one to be swamped without taking the sense of the House upon it. Mr. HUME said he had pledged himself not to divide the House upon this amendment, but any Hon. Member could insist on a division if he wished it. The amendment was then put, and Mr. S. CRAWFORD calling for a division, the gallery was cleared, but after a short interval the door was re-opened, and we found that the, amendment had been negatived without a di vision. The other paragraphs of the Address were agreed to without amendment, and the Address was ordered to be presented to her Majesty by such Members as are of her Majesty's Most Hon. Privy Council. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE IRISH POOR- _ _ LAW. Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that he rose, pursuant 1 , to notice, to propose the appointment of a Select Com mittee, with a view to an inquiry into the operation of the Irish poor-law. His Hon. and Gallant Friend the Member for Portarlington (Colonel Dunne) had, in the course of the preceding session, proposed a motion simi lar to that which he (Sir W. Somerville) now had the honour of moving. That motion, however, did not meet with the approbation of the House and the Government were very much blamed by many Irish Members for op posing it. He (Sir W. Somerville) thought then, and was of the same opinion now, that an inquiry into a law which had not at that time been fairly tried, and which inquiry must have been founded upon in sufficient information, could not have led to any satisfactory result, and would probably have obliged the Government to ask for the appointment of a fresh Committee during the present session, to obtain fresh information on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) But the case was diff e rent now. A year had elapsed, and although in the working and in the operation of a law of such vast importance a year was not a long period, yet so eventful had been the past year that the ordinary experience of many years might be said to be crowded into it. He was prepared now to redeem the pledge given by the Government OR more than one occasion during last session, to propose a Committee to inquire into this with thism most important psourrtpanriteeanfdrodm Irish Members,elicatesubjectH He thathad st theui r n e t se:n Government d an e d d t o ha p v u e r s should u st e a stated on is a t wt h they were disappointed i n t h e course w hi c h t h e G overn . m m that ee nahiosan te q e u ah e l t s ae t v i r o ea n tpi . or onps It o at w eh daesytheir - tended to make in the Irish poor-law.—(Cheers from Irish Members.) If the Government had pursued that course they would have been justly chargeable, and would have most certainly incurred the most eloquent and indignant denunciations from the Irish Members, for hays ing forfeited the pledges which, as he had stated, they had on more than one occasion given during the course of last session. But independently of this consideration, he was of opinion that an inquiry into the operation of the poor-law in Ireland would now be exceedingly pro per and desirable. There was not a single individual either in Ireland or in the United Empire who was not interested in the well-working of this law.—( Hear, hear.) And such being the case, and the social con dition of many portions of the province of Ireland being so much disturbed, was it not tair that an opportunity should be afforded to gentlemen connected with those districts to come forward and produce any evidence which would throw a light on the particular views which they held with respect to the New Poor-law? If upon inquiry it should prove that those views were not well founded, their rejection would be more readily acqui esced in after the inquiry by a Select Committee than if the House at once proceeded to legislation.— (Flear, hear.) It was possible that the Government had superior means of information on this subject, but that was no reason why gentlemen connected with Ire ' land should not be: afforded an opportunity . of stating their views, and of being certain that those views should undergo the meet patient eeruideratie%—(Sear, hear.) He would abstain from entering upon an investigation of the disputed questions connected with the administration of the poor-law in Ireland. The inquiry into those dis puted points of administration had better be left to the Committee. He would only say that, although the Go vernment would hold fast to the general principles of the law, he was of opinion that many improvements in it would be found to be practicable and desirable.—(Hear, hoar.) What these improvements were would be better stated before the Committee, and he would not go into them now. It had been said that the course taken by the Government would only delay legislation, but so far as the Government were concerned there was no wish for delay. This was now but the third day of the ses sion, and he proposed the appointment of this Select Committee with a view to speedy legislation. — (Hear, hear.) No effort should be wanting on the part of the Government to bring the proceed ings connected with this question to a speedy issue, and to further any future legislation with the view to place the law on a more satisfactory footing.—(Cheers.) He made no doubt that the same desire of speedy legislation and of improving the law would animate every gentle man who might serve upon the Committee, and he did not despair of Parliament being able to come, during the course of the present session, to a satisfactory conclusion, and to make several improvements in the general law for the relief of the Irish poor.—(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving for the appoint ment of a Select Committee on the Irish poor-law. Mr. F. FRENCH said that it had been the object of the Irish Members last year to direct the attention of the House to the nature and inevitable results of the ruinous legislation pursued by the House, by which the property of three-fourths of the Irish land lords had been annihilated, and whatever energy and self-reliance had existed among the farmers and peasantry had been destroyed. Referring a sub ject to a Select Committee was always understood to be another mode of shelving it for the rest of the session, and the present would be, he feared, no exception to that rule. There never was any law in any country so universally detested by both the ratepayers and thesre cipients of relief as the Irish poor law. The average amount of poor-rate in Connaught was 2s. 7d. in the pound on a valuation which was nearly double what it ought to be, while the average rate throughout England was only Is. 6d. in the pound. In several parts of Ire land the rate was proportionately heavy as compared with the poor-rate in England. He desired to ask, would it not be better to leave their lands untitled, like much of the land in the county of Mayo, rather than go on as a large proportion of the people of Ireland were now obliged to proceed? It was thus that many of the people of Ireland felt, and it was in that spirit that they said it was better for them to do that than- have the fruits of their hard labour torn from them by soldiery and police. By the provisions of English legisla tion those who had the administration of the poor law in Ireland were called upon to do four times the amount of duty that was imposed upon simi lar functionaries in England; and yet the Irish were taunted with being unfit to manage their own affairs. This was one ground of complaint; another was, that Government did not state whether or not they would support the recommendation made by the • Commis sioners. Before he sat down he wished to remind the English Members of that House that the Irish land owners had not purchased and had not inherited their estates on any such terms as were now sought to be im posed on them. The English had no right to bring the Irish proprietors up to their level in the way of poor law taxation. When he admitted the right of the poor of the country to be supported by the property of the country, he meant that the whole property of the country should support them; not that the land alone should bear the burden. He felt convinced that by a proper system of rating, by making workhouses self supporting, by subjecting all property to a due share of the poor-rates, the whole expense need not exceed 500,0001. a year, and the rating not be above ls. in the pound. Finally, he would add, that some declaration ought to come from the Government calculated to give confidence to the agricultural class in Ireland, and he did not hesitate to say that if they were not inspired with some degree of confidence at the present season, the greater part of Munster and Connaught would remain unsown. Mr. FAGAN observed, that one strong reason in fa vour of the present motion was, that there existed so much variety of opinion on the subject of the poor-law. At the meeting of the Irish Members which took place recently there were as many opinions as there were Members present. The Hon. Member for Waterford was in favour of a townland rating; he (Mr. Fagan) was against it, and in favour of a modified labour-rate, as had been proposed by the Hon. Member for Stroud. The Hon. Member for Meath was against any poor-law whatever—(A laugh)—while the Hon. Member for Tip peracy contended for a general union rate, to be imposed for the benefit of the aged and infirm, at the same time that a local rate was to be paid for the able-bodied poor. He did believe that the complaints against the poor-law in Ireland were founded ichiefly upon the effect of the abnormal condition in which the country was after three years of famine. In that time 40,000,000/. of the capital of the nation was consumed, and they should rather legislate on a state of things such as the country was likely to present three years hence, than on that which now existed. In his opinion, the a g itation against the poor-law was caused mainly by the effects of the fa mine; and it was hardly fair to render taxation per manent merely on account of a temporary visitation of Providence. Major BLACKALL said that the Irish landlords had no wish to shift the responsibility of supporting the poor off their own shoulders. Although it was patent to all the Irish landlords that the Bill was working to their disadvantage, that fact might not be evident to English Members, and he therefore wished for inquiry. Ho hoped they would not make the present state or Ireland the basis of their legislation, but rather take it as it was likely to be in a few years hence; neither ought they to legislate upon the grounds which the condition of any district or province presented. Mr. BRIGHT said that although he had no fault to find with the proposition then made to the House by her Majesty's Government, he still could not overlook the fact that there was an extraordinary unanimity of complaint upon that subject. But Honoura ble Members who came into that House from Ireland de ceived themselves if they thought that the corn-law — (A laugh)—he meant the poor-law—he had recently been thinking so much abut the corn-laws, that perhaps the House would excuse his having inadvertently used the one term instead of the other. What he meant to insist upon was this, that lion. Members who come from Ireland greatly deceived themselves if th e y supposed that defects in the poor-law had any very large share in producing the misery with which that country was afflicted. It was not the poor-law, but it was excessive pauperism which produced those results. They well knew that the English poor-law never had been the sub ject of so much complaint as the Irish, but if in any dis • trict of England there happened to exist anything like the extreme pauperism that was to be found in some parts of Ireland, the English poor-law would be com plained of just as loudly as the Irish. He was happy to hear it said that the property of Ireland was not indis posed to support the poverty of Ireland; but he did most earnestly hope that Hon. Members would feel that shift ing the burden of the poor-law from one part of the country to another, or endeavours to shift the staff of the poor-law functionaries from place to place, would afford no substantial relief to any quarter. There was no rational ground for seeking to throw burdens upon the mort gagees in the manner which the Hon. Member near him suggested. If the Hon. Member or any other person borrowed money of an English capitalist, and agre ed to pay for that a certain interest, surely he ought to pay it. If he refused to do so there could be no doubt tha t cir cumstances would soon compel hi m to borrow a fres h loan on such terms as would give the lender not only a sufficient interest for the use of his money, but also a sufficient sum in addition to meet the amount of poor rates with which he as mortgagee might be charged. It would in the end come to the same thing, and the Hon. Member might be assured of this, that Ireland would never get rid of her difficulties till she got rid o f her poverty. He was certain of this, that until la bour was applied to land, until indu str y was brought to the land so as to deve lo p the resources of the country, things would g o on in their present course, and the Irish landlo rds would be eaten up. Further he would say, that there was not wealth enough in all England to meet the necessities of the Irish people if that race were able to do nothing for themselves.—([lear, hear.) Land in Ire land was so overwhelmed with encumbrances that it could not be made to produce as land ought.—(Hear , hear.) The y had much discussion in that House on the B ill of last year for facilitating the sale of e ncumbered estates; and in that House it had been made somewhat better than it was in the shape in which it originally came to them. But the Government was now unabla to show that that Bill had done one particle of good ; on the con trary, he believed it had done much mischief. In his judgment, it was not of the least use to any one except the Irish lawyers. Legislation of that kind, or of any other, would not be of the slightest service to the Irish people until Parliament set itself fairly to the work of grappling with the land question in Ireland. There was no use in landlord or tenant Bills; the profits of labour and of land must be made to support the poor of Ireland or everything would be eaten up.—(Hear.) Mr. STAFFORD agreed with the Hon. Member for Manchester, that nothing could be done till the laud question was settled. Two years ago he had the painful duty of stating the same arguments as that put forward by the Hon. Member for Manchester, and he believed that neither the Encumbered Estates Bill nor the Far mers' Estate Bill would work in many provinces until t they dealt with the Irish p oor in the manner he then in sisted upon. He would d irect Hon. Gentlemen 's atten tion to a paragraph which app eared last week in a news paper, showing that there was no indis p ositi on on the rp theae t r e t . of mt worst a e pp n rpo o evi f a rneede propertytihaa Ireland en i l n a ald the worstret Ireland was an isl a nd called electoral division of to pay pay a fair poo r - Arranmore, where such a vast number of paupers was to be found that it was impossible to know how to deal with them. A Belfast capitalist came forward and offered to buy the island, which belonged to a Noble Marquis, but he required, first, not that Government money should be ad vanced, or that he should be relieved from the poor-rate, but that the island should be made an electoral division of itself. The Poor-law Commissioners acceded to the request ; the island was purchased by the Belfast capi talist, and the work of improvement and employment was progressing there. Here was a case where the re sources of the land were developed, arising out of the just resolution of the question—what return a man was to get for his money? Hon. Gentlemen in England would be astonished to find, on getting up in the morn ing, that the boundaries of their possessions were altered, half being placed in one district and half in another— but such was the case in Ireland. The lines of division were drawn without reference to the parishes, sometimes without reference to the counties, in the most random manner. It was formerly stated that these lines were irremovable, but the proposition for smaller areas, 6 0014114 iXt 1f347, wee ;mind Teith flog in 1848, and now a boundary commission was appointed. Fe believed it was not premature to state that the tendency of that commission's report would be to make a very considerable reduction in the area of taxation for poor-law purposes. The Right Hotly Gen tleman (Sir W. Somerville) said that the Government were upbraided because, having promised a Committee, they had kept their word. Now all that he (Mr. Staf ford) said when the Noble Lord mentioned his intention of granting a Committee on the Irish Poor-law was, that he suspended his opinion until he should know what the Ministerial arrangements might be ; and what he com plained of was, not only that the Government had hitherto refused to lay any Bill before the House for the consideration of that Committee, but that they had also refused to specify what portions of the Irish Poor-law they were determined to take their stand on, thereby shrinking from their responsibility as a Government, and giving rise, probably, to unfounded hopes and vague misapprehensions in Lthe public mind. Their conduct tended to confirm the report generally spread, that they had had recourse to this Committee because they were, with respect to the Irish Poor-law, a divided Govern ment, and delayed legislation, because they were incom petent to come to a decision.—(Hear.) Col. DUNNE thought that the difference of opinion existing on the subject of the Jrish poor-law justified the Government in nominating a Committee. Last year he had moved for a Committee on the subject, and the step now taken by the Government proved that he was right. The great mistake was to suppose that a poor law sufficient for an ordinary state could operate well under circumstances of extraordinary and extreme des titution from want of employment, and iii some of the districts of Ireland the whole production of the land would be found insufficient for the support of the popu lation. The Hon. Member, after referring to the case of the Marquis of Sligo, who, ho stated, paid 2,5001. for poor-rate, besides 6,0001. for family charges, and to other instances, observed that it was useless for any Irish proprietor to attempt to exert himself under the present law, for it paralyzed all endeavours he might make, the relief to the person receiving it being inade quate, while to the person paying it, it was ruin. ---(Hear, hear.) He was glad that a Committee was now proposed, for it would show the English Members that Ireland had not the same poor-law as England; it was different in the rating and in the operation, and, above all, it was bad in the administration, and required extensive altera tion. Irish gentlemen had no wish to repudiate the sup port of their starving countrymen; but the present poor law system required alteration. The support of the poor inside the workhouse should be separated from the sup port outside. Mr. SADLIER could make allowance for the meagre character of the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir W. Somerville), as he had so many duties to per form; but some member of the Cabinet would probably rise to answer the inquiries which had been made in the course of the debate, and there were one or two other points to which it might be well to call attention; for instance, the mode in which the rates were recovered. When a rate had been collected as far as the collectors stated they were able to procure payment, a second rate was made to supply the deficiency in the collection of the first, and was probably levied upon the same parties as before, the original defaulters going scot-free on both occasions ; this was practically a direct encouragement to a landlord to have upon his estate tenants who could pay a rack-rent, but who would be unable to pay poor-rates. Again, it would be impossible to entertain the subject of a law of settlement in Ireland, unless it was understood what the Government (for it was not proper to leave it to others) intended to do with respect to the establishment of a good system of registration of births, deaths, and mar riages. As to charging mortgagees with poor-rate, that would prevent the investment of capital in Ireland—if indeed this had not been already done. Let the Noble Lord (J. Russell) address himself with practical, well , digested measures to the question—what was to be done with the surplus agricultural population of Ireland? If the Government did not make a total revision of the sys tem under which Ireland had been cast as regarded unions and electoral divisions, they might depend upon it that no amendments which they could introduce would have the effect of relieving the destitution and giving full encouragement to the industry of Ireland. He hoped that the unions and electoral divisions of that country would be so constructed as to approximate to the size of the English poor-law unions; and he must express his regret that the Government had not stated explicitly what measures of a remedial character they would in troduce for Ireland, while at the same time he thought that they should adopt some measure for the more effec tual recovery of poor-law arrears in that country. Sir G. GREY must admit that the Hon. Gentleman had called the attention of the House to a subject of great importance ; but with respect to those details of the operation of the poor-law into which he had entered, and which he thought were fit subjects for reference in a Committee, it would be more convenient for the dis patch of public business to abstain from following him through the consideration of those details, especially as he (Sir G. Grey) agreed with him in thinking that they would be much better submitted to the investigation of a Committee. There were one or two points, however, in the speech of the Hon. Gentleman to which he would shortly advert. The first point was with regard to the collection of the arrears of rates; and he had to state on this subject that a collector had been sent out to see to the collection of rates, and his return was that a considerable portion of those rates had been uncol lected, not from any inability to pay them, but from un willingness, and from an evasion of the law, where the law had not been enforced against these parties. Mr. SADLIER—From destitution. Sir GEORGE GREY—Ho was afraid that the remark he had made was applicable to many who were able to pay ; and he only hoped, if the Hon. Gentleman knew of cases of that kind, that ho would place those cases in the hands of the Poor law Commissioners. He was afraid, however, it would be found that there was, in many instances, an indispo sition to pay the rates. With regard to the commission, the Hon. Gentleman opposite had made many remarks, and he had brought forward many instances to show that the original distribution of the unions was not on a uniform principle. In that he agreed with Lim—(Hear, hear)—and it was in consequence of that opinion that ho had agreed to the appointment of the Boundary Commission. Wheat the motion of the Hon. Member for Portarlington was last session disposed of he (Sir G. Grey) stated that a commission was to be appointed; and he also stated the same thing to him and a deputa tion of Irish gentlemen previous to that motion being brought on.—(Hear.) That commission had most diligently applied itself to all those details to which the Hon. Gentleman opposite had adverted, and they had transmitted a report to the Government, though the appendices and maps would not be delivered for a short time to come. He would not enter upon a detail of all the matters contained in that report, but would only state from recollection the tendency of the re commendations which it contained. The report had been referred to the Poor-law Commissioners of Ireland in order that they might fully consider the propriety of carrying out its recommendations with as little delay as possible. And when he said " carrying out" its recom mendations, soor wore ,uao clr dher doe b t hoi a o esetiebthinvri neooe b sal uondi e s pet the had; vthiih c reee. ann a tderbsug r rt ec r etehoo, i aptnea e hfmsoe d dwarrmolutati pr,otnli Ireland.—(Hear.) tlesdohata possible,ni nonrei division ye t anda;isseaai commissioners fh l onhc(dout Td p taa particulars, dl did not therefore nt i ree. folt c hor. rorh)r u leets:le l yfloaroawwuberAri Ireland.— (Hear.) soiteit the. omoh—r o ithnee r no he was not to be understood as meaning d t avv rhi that anxious ost thhohoesee workhouses, (I had nouufnetienohadnor b s.s 3 ea e i nn n uyHtnhieueo l made nbtoesetrl other parts of Ireland they proposed that the principle tendency of the report was to alter the division of the electoral divisions, he could not hold out the hope a that the commissioners were favourable to the views held by some Hon. Gentlemen ; but ithe tendency certainly was to diminish the area of taxation on the principle more than once stated to the House by himself and others though not in a way that must necessarily lead to great evils, by reducing the area of taxation to the extent ad vocated by some Hon. Members connected with Ireland. —(Hear.) He would not further enter upon the subject now ; but he hoped that the report of the commissioners would tend much to break the labours of the Committee about to be appointed. As to the questions put by the Hon. Member for Northamptonshire (Mr. Stafford), if he were to answer all those questions and refer to all the points noticed by him, he might as well produce at once the Bill which it was hoped they would be able to bring forward. He would not now occupy the time of the House by entering into detail, but he might state that the Government would not go into this inquiry with any intention of impairing the great principles upon which the Poor-law of Ireland was founded, or of altering the principles upon which relief was given. He understood an Hon. Gentleman opposite to ask whether the Government meant to confine relief to the workhouses, and to do away with the system of outdoor relief. He (Sir G. Grey) begged to inform the Hon. Gentleman that the Government enter tained no such intention.—(Hear, hear.) Their object was to facilitate the operation of the law, while, at the same time, they kept in view t he great object thel law was framed to accomplish, and which he could not admit it had failed to effect—namely to avert starvation from the Irish people. He believed that, but for the amended poor-law, there would, during the recent period of dis tress, have been a much greater degree of suffering amongst the people of Ireland. Mr. H. HERBERT observed, that there was great difference of opinion on this subject, and he feared that the proposed Committee would continue their sittings during the whole session without arriving at any practi calresult. A number of the Irish Members, of whom he was one, had an interview with the Home Secretary last year, and pressed upon him a diminution of the area of taxation; but this suggestion, although made by men practically acquainted with the state of Ireland, and whose opinions should have been entitled to consider ation, was not adopted. He believed that by energy, perseverance, and determination on the part of the landed proprietors, a poor-law might work well in Ireland; and that, although under any circumstances there must be a severe struggle, the difficulties to be encountered were not so insuperable as had been represented.—(Hear.) Sir L. O'BRIEN considered that the Government ought to have proceeded with legislation on this subject at once, and expressed a hope that such measures as might be deemed expedient would be submitted to Par liament without any unnecessary delay. part of Ireland with which he was connecstseeased capital, the flight of those tenant-farmers who p Mr. MONSELL said that the great di or o tion of the land and the cosequent danger that a large u p of He in that district might bo o t hrownnto of this Committee, for did not object to the appinhtme ezneans of effecting many he thoUght they might be he t thought it necessary, would the Government, if they ifi ra i r tY ose in fr t o h m e have the report of the e ed tru to ste b d y th ua lt e t under the immediate considera- Home Secretary brought would appoint any additional tion of the House, and important alterations in t equired to ogrY out the Arms • staff that Pgghi 1 29 F • • commpoisosriolan ments contemplated by the Commission. It was most desirable that the doubt which now existed on this subject should be removed as speedily as possible; and he warned the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was on Wed nesday to propose a vote for the relief of distress in Connaught, that if the Government Aid not take care they would have to propos a similar grant next year for the people of Munster. There was a vast emigration going on from the South of Ireland, consisting not of the lower classes, but of capitalists—thus leaving the poor unassisted, and whose support must devolve upon the Government of the country, unless means were devised to give them reproductive employment. Mr. GRATTAN did not think the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet would give satisfaction to Ireland. The avowal that it was not the intention of the Government to abandon the idea of affording support to the able bodied at once destroyed all hope that any scheme that the Committee might devise would be productive of be nefit. It had been attempted by the Red Republicans in Paris, and had totally failed. He would not ask whether the Right Hon. Baronet was a Red Republican; but he, at least, was trying the same system in Ireland, where it would not only fail, but would place the country in such a situation as to render it impossible for any proprietor to reside in at all. He begged to correct an error into which an Hon. Member had fallen in stating that he (Mr. Grattan) was not an advocate for any poor-law. On the contrary, some years ago, he. in conjunction with his brother and Sir R. Musgrave, brought in a Bill on that very subject. Sir G. GRBY explained. He had said that although he thought it desirable to institute an inquiry into the present working of the poor-law in Ireland, yet it was not the intention of the Government to retrace their steps and fall back to the minimum amount of relief under the poor-law of 1846. Mr. S. CRAWFORD maintained that the great cause of all the evils in Ireland was want of employ- mint, and that that employment would be instantly given if the occupiers of land were put in a position to be assured that for the labour they employed they would receive a just remuneration. - - Mr. ST. GEORGE said, at present persons possessing holdings at 41., and under, were exempt from paying poor-rates. He objected to this, and believed that it would be more advantageous to Ireland, if all persons holding lands were required to pay their quota. Mr. P. SCROPE hoped the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary for Ireland would take care that the Com mittee should be supplied with those statistical facts relative to the condition of the population, the tenancy and other important particulars in reference to the cir cumstances of Ireland, for whichkhe had moved returns, so as to enable them to resolve the question that would be brought before them. Sir W . SOMERVILLE did not think it possible that Government could furnish all the details for which the Hon. Member had moved a return, but he could assure that Hon. Member that every return he could command calculated to throw light upon the subject submitted to the Committee he should feel great pleasure in producing. The motion was then agreed to. TROOPS EMPLOYED IN IRELAND. Mr. GRATTAN then moved for returns of the num ber of troops of the line or other forces employed in the insurrection in Ireland, as mentioned in her Majesty's Speech from the Throne; together with list and names of the killed and wounded, and the number and descrip tion of forces engaged on both sides; also, the a mount of expenses and costs in sending troops from Great Britain to Ireland, and in moving the several regiments and other armed forces in various parts of Ireland, on the occasion of the said alleged insurrection. Mr. F. MAULE hardly knew what it was his Hon. Friend was desirous of obtaining. If he wished to know the number of troops employed in Ireland during the months of July, August, and September, when a dis turbance was apprehended, he (Mr. F. Maule) had no objection to furnish him with a return. But it was per fectly well known to all the world that, from the precau tions taken by the Government in Ireland, from the judgment displayed by the officers in command, and from the excellent conduct of the troops, no collision took place between the military and the people; and, therefore, no returns could be made, either of the killed and wounded, or the number and description of the forces employed on both sides. With reference to the expense of removing the troops from this country on that occa sion, the costs were defrayed out of the current votes of the House without any extraordinary vote for that pur pose, and as the making of the return would be attended with a vast degree of trouble, and would after all afford no valuable information to the House, he must ask to be excused from putting the country to the expense of fur nishing it. Mr. GRATTAN consented that the motion should be withdrawn, and it was withdrawn accordingly. On the motion of Mr. GRATTAN, the following re turns was ordered:—Return of the number andnames of persons arrested under the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act in Ireland, and for what alleged acts or offences, the length of imprisonment, and it let out on bail, or otherwise. THE RAJA OF SATTAR A. Mr. HUME moved for copies of any dispatch or cor respondence, secret or otherwise, from the Court of Di rectors of the East India Company to the Governo r- General of India in Council, sanctioned by the Commis sioners for the Affairs of India, and communicating the decision of the Court on the question of the disposal of the Sattara State, in consequence of the death of the late Raja; together with all correspondence, secret or other wise, between the Governments of India, from the 14th day of October, 1847, and not already laid before Par liament ; as also, copies of all minutes recorded by Members of Council in India, and dissents, protests, or minutes recorded by any member or members of the Court of Directors on that subject.—Ordered. The House then adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'cicck. 4 7 1 4 Total expenses per week 13 at Or less than the old prices by off gs,the labourer's wages were 2s . less, he was worse Live 'id. per week. H asserted that all the legisla lrn measures of the Government had tended to reduce ee quient at home, to give to the foreigner, and to eo - d l lProfits. How could they expect the farmer to ex- I tt b oh u i 4 capital on the land, or to give employment to 1/ e r erst with wheat at 455. a quarter ?—( Hear, hear.) , c) .egretted Government had not thought fit to show de ti : ls l sympathy for those suffering classes, who were tr 4 ,l -37 convinced that their distress arose from the free b er MLriseasures which had met with the approbation of aiesty's Ministers. tit v i :', l3 ANKES said he wished to take that opportu at t h sjutting one or two questions to the Noble Lord Pr o e "ad of the Government, in the absence of the m orn iilent of the Board of Control. Ho had seen in the h " 1 ,9 Herald a statement to the effect that the Bra this _ a u raised their lCustoms' duties on imports from to country to an almost unlimited amount. He wished ci et T il r yf if that wa s true, and, if so, what were thearti sil the dugeo b4cl been roind ? die 111414 ... 5 ,~---~~ PARLIAMEN TAR Y DIVISIONS. From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons.) MONDAY, FEB. 5. PUBLIC BUSINESS. Motion made, and Question proposed, " That after Tues day, the Ist day of May next, Orders of the Day shall have precedence of Notices of Motions on Thursday, the right being reserved to her Majesty's Ministers of placing Govern ment Orders at the head of the List, as ,on Mondays and Fridays." Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word " That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words," the Speeches of Members be limited in duration to one hour; but that the introducers of Original Motions, and Ministers of the Crown speaking in reply, be _exempted from this rule," instead thereof.—Question, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question." put, and negatived :—Words added : Main Question, as amended, put. The House divided:— MINORITY-AYES, 62. Adair, R. Shafto Frewen, C. H. Rawdon, Colonel Alcock, Thomas Guest, Sir John St. George, Chris. Bernal, Ralph Haggitt, F. R. Scrope, G. P. Bouverie,:E. P. Harris, Richard Sidney, Alderman Bright, John Hastie, Alexander Smith, J. Benjamin Brotherton, Joseph Hastie, Archibald Stanley, E. Brown, W.' Heathcoat, John Stanfield, W. R. C. B usfeild,William Henry, Alexander Stuart, Lord D. Cayley, Edward S. Heyworth, Lawrence Sullivan, Michael Childers, J. W. Hope, A. Teunent, R. J. Clay, James Humphery, Ald. Thompson, Colonel Cobden, Richard Kershaw, James Thornely, T. Colebrooke, Sir T. Lacy, H. C. Trelawny, J. S. Copeland, Ald. Littleton, E. R. Tynte, Colonel Crawford, W. S. Mackinnon, W." A. Willoughby, Sir H. Duke, Sir James Meagher, Thomas Wilson, Matthew Duncan, George Mitchell, A. T. Wood, W. P. Ellis, John Moffatt, George Wyld, James Ewart, William Molesworth, Sir W. Fagan,,William Mowatt, Francis IMILLIZO. Foley, John H. Mintz, G. F. Hume, J. Fordyce, A. D. O'Connor,'Feargus Gibson, T. M. MAJORITY-NOES, 96. - - Anstey, T. C. ---- Herbert, Henry A. Pinney, W. Armstrong, Sir A Herries, J. C. Plowden, W. H. Armstrong, It. 8. . Hobhouse, Sir J. Pugh, David Baillie, H. J. , Hobhouse, T. B. Raphael, Alexander Bankes, George Hogg, Sir J. W. Rich, Henry Barrington, Lord Hood, Sr A. Russell, Lord J. Bellew, R. M.; Hornby John Sadleir, John Bennet, Philip HOrSMall, E. Sandars, George Blackall, S. W. Howard, Lord E. Sandars, Joseph Blair, Stephen Inglis, Sr R. Shell, R. L. Buller, Sir J. Y. Jolliffe, Sir NV. G. Sibthorp, Colonel Banbury, E. H. Labouchere, Henry Somerville, Sir W. Charter's, Francis Legh, G. C. Spooner, It. Clerk Sir G. Lincoln, Earl of Stafford, A. Cobbold, J. C. Lockhart, A. E. Strickland, Sir G. Cowper, W. F. M'Gregor, John Sutton, H. M. Craig, W. G. Maitland, Thomas Tancred, 11. W. Drummond, Henry Mandeville, Viscount Tenison, E. K. Dunne, Francis P. Masterman, John Thompson, Alderman Ebrington, Lord Matheson, Alex. Tyrrell, Sir J. Elliot, John E. Mamie, Fox . Urquhart, David 1 Ferguson, Sr R. Miles, William Vane, Lord. H. Floyer, John Morgan, 0. Vyse, R. H. R. H. French, F. Morison, Sr W. Walsh, Sr J. Goulburn, Henry Newdegate, C. N. Watkins, Colonel Grace, 0. D. J. Norreys, Lord Wilson, James Graham, Sir James O'Brien, Sir Lucius Wodehouse, E. Granby, Marquis of Ossulton, Lord. Wood, Sir Charles Granger, T. C. Pakington, Sir J. Wrightson, W. B. Grey, Sir George Palmerston, Via. Young, Sir John Grey, Ralph W. Parker. John TELLTIB. Hawes, B. Patten, J. W. Tufnell, H. Heald, James Peel, Sir Robert Hill, Lord Marcus burgh, Regulation of Perth Stations, and Amendraent Acts). The undernamed Railway Bills were read a first, and ordered to be read a second time : Lancashire and Yorkshire (Extension of Ashton Branch, of Clifton Branch, &c.) - Newcastle and Carlisle (Alterations of and Branch from Alston Branch). Windsor (Extension of the Windsor, Staines, and S ou th- Western—Richmond to Windsor — with Power to the London and South-Western Railway Company to subscribe). Lancaster and Carlisle (from the Lancaster and, Carlisle at Lancaster to the Preston and Wyre, &c.) North-Western (Extension of Lancashire Branch, Aban donment of William Lands Branch, New Road to Settle Station, Extension of Time fur Purchase of Lands and Con struction of Works). Lancaster and Preston Junction (Junction with the East Lancashire Railway in Preston, and Amendment of Acts). Lancaster and Preston Junction Acts Amendment (Power to alter Tolls and for appointment of Officers). Birkenhead, Lancashire, and Cheshire Junction (Aban donment of part of Line, Extension to London and North- Western, &c.) CONTROVERTED ELECTIONS. The following is the list of Members who have claimed to be excused from serving on Election Committees, as being upwards of sixty years of age : Sir Thomas Dyke Acland, Hon. Hugh Arbuthnott, Robert Baynes Armstrong, Esq., Edward George Barnard, Esq., John Benbow, Esq., Joh n B ene tt, Esq. Richard Blakemore, Esq., Admiral Bowles, Joseph B rot h e rton, Esq., William Brown, Esq., Lewis William Buck, Esq., Sir Charles Merrik Burrell, William Busfield, Esq., Henry Combo Compton, Esq., William Sharman Crawford, Esq., Right Hon. Charles Tennyson D'Evncourt, Quintin Dick, Esq., Henry Drum mond, Esq., Henry Home Drummond E: q., Right Hon. Edward Ellice, William Johnson Fox, Esq., Augustus Ellett Fuller, Esq., Admiral Gordon, William Ormsby Gore, Esq., Right Hon. Henry Goulburn, Richard Harris, Esq., John Heathcoat, Esq., Right Hon. Charles J. Herries, Thoma4Law Hodges, Esq., Sir John Hope, Thomas Houldsworth, sq., Joseph Hume, Esq., Sir Robert Harry Inglis, Sir Edward Kerrison, Sir Charles Knightley, Sir Charles Lemon, Right Hon. Sir Thomas Franklin Lewis, James Loch, Esq., Major Macnamara, Lord Charles Somerset Manners, John Master man, Esq., Thomas Philip Dlaunsell, Esq., William Ord, Esq,, James Pattison, Esq., Right Hon. Sir Robert P ee l, Ed war d William. Wynne Pendarves, Esq., Colonel Powell, Nicholas Maher Power, Esq., Sir Richard Price, Richard Prime, Esq., Richard Richards, Esq., George Richard Robinson, Esq., Sir George Henry Smyth, Richard Spooner, Esq., Sir George Thomas Staunton, Sir George Strickland,;William Henry Tancred, Esq., Thomas:Thornely, Esq., Joh' Email Vivian, Esq., Harry Spencer Waddington, Esq., Richard Walker, Esq., Edmond Wodehouse, Esq., and the Right Hon. Charles Watkin Williams Wynn. LAW INTELLIGENCE. COURT OF QUEEN'S BENCH, Feb. 5. ;Sittings at Nisi Prius, at Westminster, before Lord Chief Justice DENMAN and Common Juries.) LAWRENCE V. PFIEL. This was an action to recover damages for assault and false imprisonment, committed under the following cir cumstances:— Plaintiff, a smith, carrying on business in Hart street, Covent-garden, was in the habit of dealing with the defendant, of the firm of Messrs. Pfiel, ironmongers, in Holborn. Plaintiff, accompanied by his boy, went on the occasion in question to defendant's premises, for the purpose of purchasing some bar iron, and was then charged, on the testimony of a person named William Rennie, with stealing a rod of iron, with which it was alleged he left the premises. Rennie gave information to a fellow-workman, who pursued the plaintiff, and ul timately caused him and his boy to be taken into cus tody, and detained for the night on the charge at the station-house. They were placed the next morning be fore the presiding magistrate at Bow-street, and were by him discharged, neither the defendant nor his wit nesses appearing to support the charge. Plaintiff brought his action for the injuries of which he thus complained. Defendant pleaded not guilty, and a justification; the latter plea on the ground that plaintiff had been detected on a previous occasion by the witness Rennie, in the act of stealing a new hammer, the property:of the defendant, which he concealed under his apron. It appeared that when plaintiff and his boy were taken into custody they had not the rod of iron, which they were charged with stealing, in their possession. Witnesses were examined on the one side and the other. Plaintiff and his boy (Sims) called witnesses, and denied the charges made against them. The witness Rennie, on behalf of the defendant, gave testimony in support of the charges. Lord DENMAN summed up, and put the case to the jury, who, unable to agree in the box, retired, and, after a short absence, returned a verdict for the plaintiff— Damages 501. The boy Sims did not bring any action. Mr. Montague Chambers, Q.C., appeared for th• plaintiff; Mr. Sergeant Shee for the defendant. COURT OF EXCHEQUER, Feb. 5. (Sittings in Banco.) HARDCA.STLE V. HANSON. _ _ 1 This case was an action by a commercial traveller against a merchant in London, to recover the amount of his commission. The cause was tried at last Ipsvrish assizes, when the question turned on the construction of the agreement between the parties—as to orders, when paid for, plaintiff was to have a commission of one per cent. on heavy goods, and 2} per cent. an general goods. Plaintiff, by his particular of demand, also claimed tie like per-centages On moneys due previously to his engagement, but which were collected by him, and defendant bad paid more than sufficient to cover the whole of these per-centages, but plaintiff also claimed 301. and upwards as commission at 24 per cent. on moneys due by cus tomers previously to plaintiff's management, and which bad been remitted to defendant by the customers them selves. This claim the defendant resisted, on the grounds hat it was not within the terms of the agreement, and that it would. have been esp. , :cially hard upon aim, he having already paid commission to the traveller rho had obtained she orders. This sum of 30/. was tho real contest. ^ At the trial the parties agreed that the Judge (Mr. Justice Mauler) should decide on the con struction of the agreement, each party being et liberty to move the Court and review his decision. The Judge decided in eetendant's favour, that the 301. claim could not be supported, but that as to moneys previously due, but collected by plaintiff, he was entitled to a commission of 2i per cent. on the whole, whether the moneys were owing for heavy goods or general goods. On this the defendant claimed to be entitled to a verdict, as the plaintiff in his own particular of demand had claimed on some of these moneys 1 per cent. only; and the plaintiff asked leave to amend his particulars. Both these views the Judge refused to entertain, and a , verdict was entered for plaintiff, subject to a reference as to amounts; the amount of the verdict would have been under 30s. Mr. O'Malley having obtained a rule nisi to entera verdict for defendant, or a nonsuit, Mr. Sergeant Byles (with whom was Mr. Palmer) now showed :came, insisting that Mr. Justice Maule's ruling was correct, and that the plaintiff ought not to be prejudiced by his particular of demand, as defendant could not le misled by it; but The COURT held that the plaintiff must be bound by his particular, adding that it would have been unjust to have allowed plaintiff to amend at the trial without also allowing defendant to pay money into court correspondingly, Mr. Baron Parke, at the same time, expressing his decided opinion that, on the tree con struction of the agreement, irrespective of plaintiff's par ticular, defendant was entitled to, have his rule made absolute. Rule for a nonsuit made absolute. It will be seen that in adopting Mr. Justice Maule's ruling, plaintiff abandoned all claim to the 301.—the real contest; nor was it even mentioned by plaintiff's counsel to the Court. COURT CIRCULAR. WINDSOR, MONDAY. The Queen and Prince Albert took their accustomed early morning walk. The Royal Family walked and rose in the pleasure grounds of the Castle. Mr. Mayer, of Liverpool, had the honour of submitting to her Majesty and his Royal Highness Princess Albert the silver cradle made for the Mayor of Liverpool, and presented to him by his fellow-townsmen, to commemo rate the birth of a child during his mayoralty. Prince Albert went out shooting this morning, at tended by Colonel Wylde. Her Majesty attended by the Viscountess Jocelyn, Lady in waiting, took a drive this forenootrinto the Great Park. Lord Alfred Paget, Equerry in waiting' attend ing on horseback. of M d n a g n h with itthe her Hon. MajestyM rs . G t h . i E. s evening. Anson had the honour The Qu d eenioo'ospr.rivate b an d was in att endance in the Castleafter Colonial office, re si dence h ai Sir Richard A. O'Donel had John Russell yesterday, at his official residence in Downing-street. a n interview e w i a i l th wtteh Mr. Alcoek, b a d an intervioe: Hon. H. Labouchere yesterdah at the office of the Board of Trade. Mr. Pressly bad an interview yesterday with Ri ght Chancellorn Dispatches were the oE:cceheei:eude r ,yae: yesterday a y Downing-street. office, from the Governors of the North American Co. loaies, and also from the Governors of the Mauritius and Gibraltar. PANAMA.—The Pacific Steam Navigation Com pany's steam-ship New Granada, from Callao, arrived here, bringing, in addition to her usual passengers and cargo, the mails in continuation with the company's steamer New Granada, which left Valparaiso Nov. 30, from the undermentioned ports, in Chile, Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, and New Granada, of the respective dates as undernoted:—Chile—Valparaiso, Nov. 30; Coquimbo, Dec. 1; Hu asco , 2d ; Cossiasso, 2d. Bolivia—Colya, Dec. 4. Peru—lquique, Dec. 5; Arica, 6th; Islay, 7th; Pisco, 9th; Callao, 13tb.—John Williams, Commander. Note of men-of-war and packets at the different ports from Valparaiso to Panama :—At Valparaiso—Her British Majesty's ships Asia, Constance, and Gorgon; French, Pouiovant, Brillante, Genie. At Callao—Her British Majesty's ship Naiad; French, Sarcelle, Genie. Panama—Her British Majesty's schooner Cockatrice. H i c hlisserat THE GERMAN SOCIETY OF BENNYOLENCE AND CONCORD.—The Germans in London, like the Jews, are a sell-supporting community. As far as their ma" allow, they aid in maintaining their own poor; an n , employment, which is still better, in providing them with which is the best means of averting poverty Last night the annual dinner of the society by ns ivh, of this is effected was held at the Freemasons' aw ing was very well attended, the proceedings le a t the e l by some excellent singing. relieved 302 persons in the i f e a sY re . l i t nc li re as asi w n e g ll , assist ance s i s a l year lt alPBP4e4ran. d after looking over the balance-sheet of theresiocie that, as the applications for once from the benevolent is desirable, Th e " en i ng% entertainments concluded with a WI. PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS (From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons. MONDAY, FEB. 5. The following petitions for Railways were presented, sad the Bills ordered to be brought in:— Manchester Sheffield, and Lincolnshire (Consolidation and Amendment of Acts). Reading, Guildford, and Reigate (Branch to London and South-Western Railway). East Anglian (Ely and Huntingdon Railway, Extension of Time). York and North Midland (Deviation and Abandonment of b Part of the authorised Lines of Railway t . !,en. Market Weighton and Beverley, and Copmanthorpeanellaacaster). Great Indian Peninsula Railway ComPa a nY n ••• East Indian Railway Company (for m Railways in the East Indies). ainst opening g one or more and South-Eastern (Removal (Removal of Restri a c n t d ion Ash a the Tunbridge Wells and Hastin g tord ings Lines, Grand of compulsoryg rowers for Purchase of Lands and Steam-boats). wh ßr t d o t n e a f o v o e t, Cockerm ou th and W orkin on Act, and Power A men dment of Acto( Branchlease to to Junction Railway ComoanY)i laiiff ,,y, and Edinburgh and Edinburgh and GlaszoLi gamation, or Sale or Lease of Glasgow Union Canal 'A (Railway Company). the Union Canal to t he . (Alteration of Line in Eggles- Darlington Stockton and cliff - a and Stockton-on-Tees )• and Birm ingham Acts Amendment, B ranc h es, and Deviations. Ed i n b ur gh an d Northern (A—Dunfermline B ranc h Devi ation hill and Halbeath Tramways ; Branches in connexion with those Tramways; Repeal of Agreement with Lessees of Halbeath Colliery; Increase of Capital and Amendment of Acts. ) Edinburgh and Northern (B—Deviation of Dunfermline Branch in Dunfermline Parish, and Alterations, so that the same may pass over the H a lb ea th Tramway; Branches in connexion with Halbeath and Townhill Tramways, Increase of Capital and Amendment of Acts). Edinburgh and Northern (C—Dunfermline Branch; Al terations in Dunfermline Parish ; Level Crossing of Halbeath Tramway ; Repeal of Agreement with Lessees of Halbeath Colliery; Townhill and Halbeath Branches; Increase of Capital and Amendment of Acts). Edinburgh and Northern (Formation of Slip Quay and other Work at Grantoi Extension of Station at Ban" THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING-, FEBRUARY 6, 1849. . - ►uld isr g ev; 000"