The Sun. — London, England, 1842-06-21 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAIVIENT. HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 20. • The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour. The Charterhouse Hospital Estate Bill was read a> third time. Mr. SHAW presented a petition from the Bishop and Clergy of the Diocese of Elfin, in Ireland, com plaining of oppressive grievances in regard to their temporalities ; also from several parishes in the dioeeseof Tuam, complaining of the present system of National Education in Ireland. "An Ho*. MEMBER presented a petition from the tanners and manufacturers of leather in the town of Coleraine, in Ireland, praying the House not to pass that part of the tariff which affects their trade. Mr. MURPHY presented a petition from certain millers and millowners of Cork, complaining of the i m p o rtation of foreign flour. ...4r. ALEXANDER CAMPBELL presented a petition from Glasgow, signed by 14,300 inhabitants, prOng k_ . ..'the Abolition of Church patronage. Mr. :I'.DC:NCOMBE presented a petition from a • gentleman of the name of Price, residing in Essex, praying that a clause might be introduced into the Railways Bill for the protection of property adjacent to railways. Mr. L fDDELL presented a petition from a place in Durham signed by 144 rate-payers, against the New Poor-law Bill. Lord ELIOT presented a petition from the Dublin .General Dispensary, praying for a system of medical charities in Ireland. Mr. CHUTE presented a petition from West meath, praying for a revision of the Grand Jury Laws in Ireland. Lord SANDON presented, a petition from Liver- pool, praying for inquiry into the system of education adopted in the College of Maynooth. NOTICES OF MOTION. Mr. WALLACE gave notice of his intention to substitute the following resolutions for the motion in the notice which stands for the 23d of June, with re spect to the distressed condition of the working classes : " Resolved, 1. That the trade and manufactures of thi; country are labouring under great embarrassment and difficulties. That the industrious classes are also suffering many privations, and severe distress. "3. That this state of things has been gradually ad vancing for several years past, and is now extending in a -roost alarming degree. ",4. That the alterations made in the Corn-laws, and in the Duties on Imports and Exports, coupled- as these laws have been with an Income- tax, to add nearly Four Millions of taxation to this already heavily bur dened country, cannot be expected to afford that relief which the continually declining state of trade and the distressed condition of the people so urgently require. " 5. That, therefore, the welfare of her Majesty's faithful people, and the future peace and security of the country imperatively demand that effectual measures shall immediately be taken to rescue the working classes • from tte privations and sufferings they have so long borne, with a degree of patience and fortitude, which spe • cially entitles them to the affectionate sympathy of their :Sovereign, and to the respect, commiseration, and assist ance of this House." _ POOR-LAWS. Mr. COLVILLE gave notice that, on going into Committee upon the Poor-laws, he would move a re solution against the abolition of the Gilbert Unions. SOUTHAMPTON ELECTION. • Mr. W. 0. STANLEY moved the substitution of -• Sir John Hanmer for Viscount Marsham on the Select Committee relating to the borough of South ampton. LIGHT SOVEREIGNS. Captain BERKELEY said, that seeing the Gallant Admiral opposite in his place, he. wished to know from him whether it was a fact that, after the issuing of the proclamation relative to the gold coin, the crew of the vessel Pique had been paid in light sovereigns, thereby causing a loss to the men. Sir G. COCKBURN said that having seen a state thent to that effect, inquiries respecting it were made at the Admiralty-office, and it was ascertained that there was not the slightest foundation for it ; and not content with this, inquiries were made at the railway station where those sovereigns were said to be stopped, and so far from that being the case, the delay which arose was occasioned by the difficulty in getting the notes which the men received changed. Captain BERKELEY could only say the informa he received on the subject was different from that 'obtained by the Hon. and Gallant Admiral. ABSENCE FROM VESSELS. The HON. MEMBER. wished also to know from the Gallant Admiral whether there were any orders issued by the present Commander-in-Chief in the Mediterranean, preventing the officers at Malta from going on shore in conseqUence of the state of dis cipline in which the crews were—the officers having been complimented in the highest possible degree. Sir G. COCKBURN said, that the order to which `the lion. and Gallant Officer alluded, related to in discriminate absence from vessels, and he was not aware that any complaints had been made on the sub ject from the Malta station. POOR-LAWS. An Hos. MEmtlEit gave notice that, in the event of the motion for limiting the duration of the Poor-law Coininission to one year being lost, he should move that it be limited to three years. Lord COUBTENAY obtained leave to bring in a Bill to explain the Acts now in force relating to pawn broking in Ireland. Mr. FERRAN' rose to put a question to the Right Min. Baronet, the Secretary for the Home Department. On a former evening the Right Hon. Baronet read an extract from the Report of Mr. Mott, the Assistant Poor-law Commissioner, in which four Magistrates of the county of York were accused of squandering the money of their parishes for the sake of popularity, and of being talked of as friends of the poor, He (Mr. Ferrand) as one of the guardians of the Keightley Union, whioh was alluded to, assured the House that he knew nothing of such conduct ; and he had written to one of the Magistrates who were attacked, and he received from him an assurance that there was no foundation whatever for the accusation. Now, what he wished to ask the Right Hon. Baronet was. whe ther there would be any . objection to lay the Report of Mr. Mott urn the table of the House ? Sir J. GRAfIAM had no objection to the Report being laid upon the table of the House, if the Hon. Gentleman would move for the return ; but he sup : posed that if the Hon. Gentleman, or his friends, wished to consult the document, they would find no difficulty in • obtaining a copy at the office of the Commissioners. Mr. FERRAND then moved for a return of the Report of Mr. Mott, which was ordered. IRISH TITHES. Mr, SHAW said a considerable sum of money, amounting, he believed, to about 25,0001., had been collected and paid into the office of the Paymaster of the Civil Service in Ireland, on account of sums of money due to the Irish clergy from the Irish landlords ; but that no part of that amount so paid in had been received by the Irish clergy. Ile believed that an arrangement had been made, by which a part of the amount was to be paid immediately, and the rest at a future time; and he wished to ash, whether this arrangement would he carried into effect ? Lord ELIOT said he had already answered a ques tion on the subjeCt put by the Right Zion. and Learned Member, and he could not do more than say that such an arrangement having been made, it would be carried into effect with the least possible delay. ENGLISH REGISTRATION. Sir J. GRAHAM said, that as the registration for England commenced this day under the existing law, it was .the opinion of the Government that it would be inexpedient to interfere with the registration under the law as it stood. He had, therefore, to state, for the inf orma ti on o f the House, that though leave to bring in a Bill on the English Registration would be moved for this session, yet it was not with any inten tion to press it ; but as it must be passed before the next 20th of June, in order to affect the registration of next year, it would be laid on the table this session, and be passed in the early,part of the next. IRISH REGISTRATION. Lord J. RUSSELL asked the Right Honourable Baronet whether there was any intention on the part of the Clovernnient to press the Irish Registration Bill this session ? Sir R. PEEL said the Government had no inten tion of pressing the Irish Registration Bill this ses sion ; but he was not prepared to state whether or not 'it would be laid on the table. • Mr. C. WOOD was addressing some observations to the House on the subject, when he was interrupted by, the Speaker as being out of order. Mr. MILNER GIBSON wished to know if it was the intention of the Right Hon. Gentleman to intro duee a 'clause into the English Registration Act doing away , with the disqualification consequent Upon a change of residence ? He had received so many com plaints from gentlemen of Conservative principles, as well as from gentlemen of Liberal opinions, of the intScarriage of the Bilr on that subject that he hoped the Right•HOn. Baronet would introduce some clause into his Bill to remedy this inconvenience. Sir JAMES GRAHAM would, when he asked permission to introduce his Bill, state to the House what the provisions of the intended measure would b e .—(A laugh. 1 'TIPPERARY SPECIAL COMMISSION. Sir 11. W. BAItRON having understood that the Noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, was now in a condition to answer the questions which he (Sir -Barron) had yut to him the other evening, relating to the Tipperagpeels Commission, would C • ssion, wo uld now repeat them. e would ask if the Noble Lo toil -was aware of, the probable expense of the sp e aal Commission for the county of Tipperary, and if he could state the difference in the 'Tates of the Special Commision and the commencement of t h e G en eral Co mission of gaol delivery ? H e l would also ask why the General Callugiedont could not commence its labours with the county of Tipperary, instead of commencing at the other end of the circuit, by which means the great expense of this Special Commission would have been saved, and this great job would have been prevented ? At the same time he felt bound to state, that he ac quitted the Noble Lord of all participation in that job, the whole affair having, as he believed, been con cocted behind the Noble Lord's back. Lord ELIOT said that the date of the Special Commision was the 10th June, and that it would be opened on the 28th June. The General Commission was dated the 9th of June ; but it would not be opened at Tipperary until the 28th of July, one calendar month after the opening of the Special Commission. The Judges who would preside over the Special Commission were the two Chief Justices, and the prosecutions would be conducted on the part of the Crown by the Attorney-General, Sergeant Greene, and Mr. Scott. He was not able to state what the exact expense would be, but the expense of the last Special Commission, in 1839, was 3,0634. Great inconvenience would have arisen from any alteration having been made in the usual manner of going the eircuit, inasmuch as the time for holding the sessions was in general regulated thereby; but he did not rest the defence of the mea sure on those grounds. It was deemed necessary by the Lord Chancellor and the Law Officers of the'Crown to issue this Special Commission, in order to impress upon the minds of the people of the country the necessity of obedience to the laws ; and if it should realize what was expected from it, the expense would have been well incurred. He was willing to take his share of the responsibility, and felt that it was exceedingly improper to impute the mean and paltry motives to the Attorney-General for Ireland which had been imputed to that officer. Sir H. W. BARRON had not imputed any mean or paltry motives to— Mr. F. SHAW rose to order. The Hon. Baronet having asked his question, had no right to say anything further which would be likely to give rise to angry discussion, or to raise angry feelings. Lord ELIOT had not alluded in what he had said to anything that had fallen from the Hon. Baronet, but motives had been attributed to the Attorney- General elsewhere, and by other parties. Sir H. W. BARRON was satisfied with the Noble Lord's explanation. In reply to a question from Sir W. SOMERVILLE, Lord ELIOT said it was not the intention of the Government to introduce any measure in the course of the present session with respect to the present sys tem of pawnbroking. Mr. ROEBUCK. gave notice that he would, to morrow, move that Mr. Redhead Yorke and Mr. Mackenzie be added to the Committee on Compromise. Sir F. BURDETT said he would, on an early day, call'the attention of the House to the invention of Captain Warner. GOLD COINAGE. Mr. C. BULLER said he rose for the purpose of bringing under the consideration of the House the sold coinage of the country. He believed he was quite in order in doing so before the reading of the Order of the Day. He thought it was a matter which ought to be discussed as much as possible without party feelings. He had no intention of criminating the Government, but he felt that it was his duty, in conformity with his opinions upon the subject, to state that he highly disapproved of the conduct which they had pursued in reference to this matter, and to give the grounds upon which he thought that their conduct was improper. No one would be more de lighted than himself, if the Government would take steps for tranquillising the confusion which had occurred. He thought the House would agree with him, that this was a matter of deep moment to the whole community, and, above all, of deep moment to the poorest classes of the community. The Hon. Member for Essex talked the other day about the poor not being willing to take gold. The fact was, that the gold coinage of the country was chiefly re quired for small daily payments. In this metropolis the vast proportion of the workmen received more than 20s. per week, which they were paid in gold ; others, who received above half a sovereign, were paid in the same manner, whilst the pay ments of the rich were principally made in bank notes, or by cheques upon their bankers. Illat was it that he complained of in the conduct of the Government ? What was the nature of their proclamation ? On the 3d of June her Majesty's Go vernment, without any notice—without any prepara tion of the public mind, issued a proclamation, warning the public that there were great quantities of light gold coin in circulation, calling upon the officers of the Government to enforce the law respecting the defacing of the coin, and also calling upon her Ma jesty's subjects to do the same. No statement was made in that proclamation of what the law was re specting the cutting and defacing of coin. The man who kept a tripe shop—(Laughter)—in White chapel, or a baker's shop in Tothill-street, was left to consider for himself what that law was. When he pointed out to the House that such persons might thus have been led into a violation of the law, by . which they acid not the persons who had injured the coin would suffer, doubts must arise as to the propriety of issuing the procla mation. What was the effect of the proclamation ? It was to discredit the whole of the gold coin of the realm. It was, that nobody hereafter Would safely take those coins, as they had done for the last twenty-five years, merely by number. Supposing the impress was defaced, and every one was obliged to take the coin by weight, the effect would be that the gold coin would be paid in large sums into the Bank of England, and thus would be driven out of circula tion the gold coin of the reigns of George IV. and William IV. He wished to impress upon the House that this step on the part of the Government was no thing less than the calling in of all the gold coin of the reigns of George IV. and 'William IV. The loss of the depreciation of the coin fell on the holders of the coin on the 3d June, when the procla mation was made. This loss fell on the retail trades men, and a great many of the working classes. He wished to state that, in his opinion, upon general principles, it was unjust that the loss should fall on the accidental holders of the coin. What was the cause of the deficiency in the coin ? Although many persona said that holes had been made in the sovereigns, yet the real cause was the wear and tear of the coin during twenty-five years' or twenty years' circulation. Well, he said that it was monstrous that the loss should fall on the holders. It was not the fault of the holder in June, that these sovereigns had been in circulation twenty five years ; he did not know of the mischief which had been going on for twenty-five years, and, therefore,' it was unjust that the punishment should fall on him. Now he would ask what was the good of this ? Was it to deter the per son who really played tricks with, coin by plugging it ? Why, the person who played tricks with the coin always took care that the coin should as soon as pos sible go out of his possession. He was a person certain not to hold the coin. He was the first per son who damaged the coin, and of course he got rid of it, in order not to be discovered, so that the loss fell entirely upon the innocent person, and the loss had not the effect of deterring persons from the com mission of the offence. This loss was very heavy to the individual holder, while it could easily be borne by the public. What was the whole amount of the loss? The Chancellor 'of the Exchequer averaged the loss at 3d. per sovereign, or 1 per cent., as the general depreciation of the sovereign. It was supposed the amount of deteriorated gold in the country amounted to about six millions, and at the rate of depreciation stated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total loss would amount to no more than about 90,0001. Now it appeared to him, that upon every ground of justice and expediency that loss should not be borne by the accidental holder of the coin. Such a course was opposedto every former prece dent in our history. A distinction had always been made by the Governments of this country between a de preciation of coin caused by wear and tear, and a de preciation caused by illegal practices. In all cases., parties were not allowed to suffer because they hap pened to be in possession of coin which was deterio rated by reasonable wear. A statute of the 19th of Henry VII., contained a provision to that effect ; a similar enactment was passed in the 29th of Eli sabeth ; and the same principle had been recognised in various succeeding reigns. In the year 1766, the depreciated gold coin was called in ; a provision was then passed that allowance should be made for reason able wear ; and it was a remarkable fact, that the allowance made amounted - nearly to the extent of depreciation in the coin of the present day, as stated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The allowance made was one-and-a-half grains in every 130, which made about 1-10th per cent. That was somewhat between the 'extremes of the pre sent depreciation. Now, he must say, that when her Majesty's Government issued its exhortations to the revenue officers and others to cut and deface every coin which they found to be deficient in weight, the proclamation ought to have told them that they did it at their peril, and that if they made any mis take, and cut and defaced' coin that was not deficient they would have to compensate the owner. In the Act of 1832 it was :expressly enacted _that no person should cut , deface, or destroy coin that that was deficient only on account of reasonable wear. But what was most important, from the whole history of this country -Since the Revolution, was, that whenever the old Coin was called in, the deficiency was bbrne by the public, and not by the holder. lie had not been able to find any thing to the contrary, and bethought that the cases which he should produce were .perfectly de cisive as to tlie principles will& heretofore always guided the Government since the Revolution. Si nce that period, there had been three re-coinages. One was in the year 1696, in the reizri of William the Third. Oil that occasion, the House of Commons consented to rAy sal tile kw upon- the -4Na:coinage , The de predation had been enormous, and the greatest con fusion prevailed; so that the . people were willing to I pay anything out of the public purse to get rid of the inconvenience. He did not think that the precedent of the re- coinage of William. 111. was to be followed out in all its circumstances ; for it was effected with great loss to the public, and was at tended with very great fraud. But did the Govern ment on that account throw the whole of the loss in the next re-coinage upon the holders ? He then came to the great re-coinage of gold in 1774, when compensation was given to the holders accord ' ing to a plan for which Lord Liverpool referred them to the books of the Treasury. Those books might be printed for the use of Honourable Members, but he apprehended it would be expensive. The plan the Government then adopted would be best stated by the resolutions of the House of Commons, to which he begged to call the attention of the Chan cellor of the Exchequer. The House of Com mons had a Committee of the whole House on the subject ; and it was resolved that the gold currency of guineas, half guineas, and quarter guineas should be called in by degrees ; that certain days should be appointed, after which the existing gold coinage should not be received by any collector of the public revenue ; and that certain other days should be appointed after which they should not be allowed to pass in any manner whatever, but that they should be called in and re-coined, according to the established weight. On the plan of calling in and re-coining the gold coinage, the public bore the loss aris ing both from the deficiency of weight and the expense of re-coining. He might not be able to ascertain what the exact amount of the cost was, but he found it stated, in Macpherson's An nals of Commerce, that in 1774, the sum of 46,0001. was charged as the deficiency of weight, without the charge of re-coining. In 1777, he found a further sum of 105,000/. was put down for the expense both of coinage and deficiency of weight. He could not apportion this sum between the two items, but there was one sum of 151,0001. for both. There was another instance within their own recollection the great re coinage of silver in 1816. There was no gold re-coined in that year, but the silver was more depreciated than had ever been known, and the Government determined to call it all in, for the pur pose of re- coinage. Did they then adopt the views of the present Government, that it ought to be the holders that should bear the loss ? No such thing. They threw the loss on the public, provided for it from the public funds of the country. The amount ,of silver coin then in the realm wr.s 2,500,0001., and it was stated in the. Report that it was depreciated no less than 30 per cent. The loss upon the silver coin was therefore 730,0001., and it was borne by the public. As he had the advantage of addressing a' Conservative Govern ment, who venerated the principles on which former Tory Ministries acted, he would read the principles upon which Lord Liverpool and the Government acted upon that occasion. He (Lord Liverppol) said that with regard to indemnity, he felt disposed to propose, and he was sure the House would adopt, the most liberal principles. Their Lordships were aware that when a new coin was issued in other countries, and the coin called in, the Government received the coin by weight, not by tale, so that the public incurred the loss that was occasioned by its circulation; but it became the Go vernment and Legislature o this country to be• more liberal. Such was the language of Lord Liverpool before the Bill was brought in, by which it was proposed, that the silver should be received at its current value, and called in. That was the principle on which the Government proceeded, and he found the same principle laid down in this House, by a great authority, the then Master of the Mint, Mr. Wellesley Pole, who said " that when the people had no alternative but to receive the coin in circulation, it would be ahardship to allow them to suffer from the fault of the Government, and he should, therefore, propose the exchange of all the coin." And that proposition was made when the coin was depreciated not 24- per cent., but 30 per cent. —(Hear, hear, hear.) He (Mr. Wellesley Pole) said, that while he was anxious to preserve the public from such loss, he was desirous that in dividuals should suffer as little as possible. It was, however, impossible to prevent many persons from sustaining loss by withdrawing the coin from circulation, but it was the duty of Government to make the loss as little as possible. Persons were ap pointed to give money of the full weight to those who held the depreciated coin, but perhaps the Government would say that the precedent of Lord Liverpool in 1816 was - against him, and one that should deter the Tory Government of this time from following it ; but it must be recollected that the case of the Go vernment of that time was fifteen times stronger than it is now, and the depreciation was 30 per cent., and, not 2 per cent. as at present. He had heard it stated in defence that that course was not pursued with regard' to the gold coinage. Now the coinage of gold at that time could not be drawn into a precedent, because it was a new coinage. He had stated, that while he condemned the course adopted by the Government, he would point out the course he thought they ought to pursue ; they ought to have adopted the course as near as possible that was adopted bn a former re-coinage. It had been said on behalf of the Government, that if they gave a full-weight sovereign for a light one, it would in effect be a premium upon clipping the coin. He granted that the depreciation of the coin was an evil ; but it was an evil that did not require to be put a stop to in a moment. What had alarmed everybody was the Government declaring that the coin was light. If the Government had, when it found the sovereign light one-half per cent., called it in, and issued a full weight sovereign for it, it would not have cost the country more than 90,0001.. At that depreciation they might have stopped, and then the public would have known what course to pursue. He believed if the Go vernment had taken proper precautions they might have prevented the depreciation of the coin. He thought that the loss of 90,0001. in ten or twenty years would have been an infinitely smaller evil than the discrediting the whole gold coin of this country. He now came to the manner in which the Government had acted, and the circum stances under which the proclamation had been issued. The Government seemed to have issued its proclamation as though it were the most ordinary thing in the world. Not a word of previous explanation had been given to the public ; without any notice the whole gold coinage was discredited ; men were sent away with their sovereigns, parties refusing to take them, and no explanation was oftered by the Government until the question was mooted on that side of the House. He knew it might be said that conduct of that kind would tend to make the public cautious about taking money. Why, there could not be a greater evil than that of exciting suspicion with respect to the coinage.—(Hear.) To set every one upon weighing sovereigns and half-sovereigns, would cause the greatest confusion in commercial transactions, and cause a great waste of time and labour to the public.—(Hear, hear.) The system of the middle ages would be revived, and every man would be compelled to take with him a pair of scales for the purpose of weighing what he had to receive, for the purpose of ascertaining that it was of the proper value. The country had for some time been free from this monstrous evil ; no complaint had been heard, and all sus picion had in fact been lulled to sleep. The recent events had led some to exclaim that the only way to remedy the evil was to re store the good old one-pound notes. Ho confessed he should be very unwilling to have recourse to such an extreme remedy. In 1816 the gold coin was called in, but the public mind was then prepared for it, and a good silver coinage was substituted. Notice was then given all over the country that the coin should be brought in on a certain day, when the old coin would be changed for new. The whole was done in a very short time, arid without loss. There was no new 'coinage now to supply the place of the old, and no precautions thewhatever old had eo n b e e f n o r t a k n e e n w, to e w n a h b i l c e h the ought pulsli c t t o o change been done even if the holders had had to incur the loss of the depreciation, which he thought they ought not to do. Now what had the Government done towards providing new coin in substitution for the old ? Why they had issued a proclamation for a new coinage of half-farthings.—(A laugh.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer, thinking, probably, that there was no human being that possessed only two sovereigns took precautions to enable the holders of fifty sovereigns to change them at the Bank, but it never entered into his contemplation to ima gine that there might be persons holding gold coin below that amount. A week after the proclamation had been issued, however, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in answer to a question from an Hon. Member of the House, said he would consult with the Custom-house officers, and try to devise some means to enable persons to change small sums; and they had devised means for enabling persons to change sovereigns, not less in amount than 201., at a loss of 1 per cent., but no provision was made for the exchange of sums of less amount. It was the duty of the Government, when it issued the proclama tion, to have told the people what was the amount of the depreciation. True, a week afterwards they had been told that it was only 1 per cent., but in the meantime the;. poor pecple had been cheated out of their fair earnings ; they had been completely at the mercy of the shop keepers, and the frauds which had been committed were frightful. Some shopkeepers had deducted 2s. out of every sovereign, and is. .out of every half sovereign, being at the rate of ten, instead of one-and a-half per oent, while, evon such a house as Howell, THE RUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MO, NING. 3 UNE 21, 1842. and James, had deducted sixpence out of every sovereign, being twice the amount of the depreciation. In many cases, threepence had been deducted from all sovereigns, whether light or heavy. He would relate one instance, to show the impudence of those frauds. A friend of his had sent to the Bank for money to pay his workmen ; he took care to have every sovereign weighed to ascertain that it was full weight; he paid hik workmen with this money, and yet, out of every one of these sovereigns the shopkeepers deducted sixpence. —(Hear, hear.) When he was mentioning the conduct of the Bank, he might allude to a subject which had been men tioned in the papers, namely, that while the Bank had been refusing light sovereigns, it had also been issuing them. He had heard that from so many authorities, that he could not doubt it. A person went to the Bank, tendered eight sovereigns, and a deduction was made in the payment for them. There was a case of a man who, having at one department of the Bank tendered sovereigns which had been given to him at another department, they were found to be light, and the full value refused to be given for them. While the Bank was refusing light sovereigns, it was issuing light sovereigns. He had thought it right to bring the subject before the House, because it appear ed to him that by the measure which the Government had thought proper to adopt, a very great loss had been in some way or other inflicted on the public. Might he ask at what period was it that this loss had been inflicted on the public—what period had been chosen by the Go vernment for inflicting on the country the mischief of a discredited currency ? It was at a period when the most unexampled distress existed among all classes ; when trade and commerce were more paralysed, and the la bourer less employed, than at any other period he was aware of. He should have thought it would have been the course of a wise Government, knowing that there was unavoidable pressure from other sources, to have been exceedingly cautious of making, by their own proceedings, any further additions to the pub lic burdens. He thought that such a Government would have waited for a while, or if it would not have waited, that it would have adopted every precaution, in order to let the blow fall as lightly as possible on the public. He knew not to what cause to attribute the carelessness of the measure. lie knew not, with the exception of the Right Hon. Baronet, upon whom they were accustomed to throw all the responsi bility of the acts of the Government—he knew not to whom to attribute this measure. To be sure there was the Right lion. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex chequer—a gentleman who had filled, most creditably to himself, the office of Vice-President of the Board of Trade. He supposed that the double duties of his office had prevented him paying attention to the subject. He had had to expound the tariff, and he had had to come down to the House and contend for every article of the tariff, becaiise he had' not only to prove to that (the Opposition) side of the House, that there would be great reduction to the consumer, but then to turn round to prove to Members on the other side that the reduc tion in the duties would cause no reduction in price. Perhaps, under all these circumstances the Right Hon. Gentleman's energies had been so much tried that he could not attend to the Mint. He (Mr. Buller) could have wished it otherwise, for he would venture to say that there had been more harm done by this proceed ing with respect to the coinage in one fortnight than the tariff would make up in the course of a whole year. His (Mr. Buller's) object was, not merely to vindicate the Government, but he had another object in view, because he would certainly be more satisfied if the Government would come forward and explain to the country the rea son. which they had not hitherto given, for this sudden and unexplained act. He would tell those gentlemen, and the House generally, that this was not a time to take that high course of recklessness, and put forth to the public edicts inflicting injury on a great portion of the community without vouchsafing an expla nation of the grounds for so doing. The working classes were not in a humour to be trifled with upon this matter. They had intelligence, and they had suspicion. They would not acquiesce in these edicts without inquiry lie must say that there never was a period in which a full explanation on the part of a Government would have a greater effect upon the good sense and good feeling of the great mass of the people than now.—(Hear.) Let the Government show them that they had not trifled with their interests ; let them show them that their acts were with a view to the welfare of the community. The people, whatever their sufferings might be, would be content if they were convinced that the measure was a just one. If the Right Hon. Gentleman could give that explanation which he (Mr. Buller) hoped he would; if lie could show that the conduct of the Government had been founded on sound principles if' he could show that they had acted as liberally as former Governments ; if he could show that they had consulted the best interests of the public in the same way as former Governments had; if lie could show that there was an occasion for making the change, no one would be more rejoiced than himself. He thought the Government should be glad of the op portunity he had given them of offering an explanation on the subject, and at all events, by bringing the matter under the consideration of the House, it would be shown that parties, however poor and helpless, who had suffered from the course taken by the Government., had advocates in that House who felt a sympathy in their sufferings, and who would take care that they should not be injured by the misconduct of their rulers.—(Hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he was sure the House would forgive him for offer ing a few observations in reply to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, although he was aware that in doing so he should have to trespass on the indulgence of the. House. The lion. and Learned Gentleman had endeavoured to connect the important subject he had brought tinder the consideration of the House with another subject which was to have been the immediate topic of discussion that evening ; and he (tke Chancellor of the Exchequer) could not but think that the precedent laid down by the Hon. Gentleman of introducing a discussion upon a question foreign to that immediately before the House, was calculated to lead to much inconvenience. However, in replying to the Hon. Gentleman, he would pursue that matter no further, but would strictly confine himself to the topic he had introduced. The Hon. Gentleman had complained of the course taken by the Government for withdrawing from circulation that portion of our gold coin which was below the current value. Before they proceeded to the consideration of that subject, the House, he thought, ought to bear in mind what was the state of the law upon the matter. The law laid it down as a principle that the gold coin of these realms, when it was under a certain weight, was no longer a legal tender for any payment. No person was compelled to take it, and if any party, took it he could not compel others to receive it from him in return. It followed, therefore, clearly as he thought, that when a consider able portion of the gold coin of the country was deficient in weight, that was a subject which would necessarily attract the attention of the Government. It would be extremely prejudicial to any class that a great propor tion of the current coin should be so deteriorated that it could not be offered as a legal tender in any payments. He was willing to admit, however, that the subject was attended with inconvenience, whatever was the step which the Government might take. He believed it was impossible to devise any means of rectifying the depre ciated coin, which would not press more or less upon in dividuals ; and he believed it would press more severely upon the lower orders of society, inasmuch as they were more liable to be deceived by parties who wished to profit by them. But he would beg the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to' bear in mind what the evils of a light coinage were, even 'to them, and to consider the case, not merely in its reference to particular individuals, but in reference to the consequences which must ensue from a continued depreciation of the coinage, if some measure had not been taken to arrest its progress. He was quite ready to admit that it would have been far more advantageous to every interest of so ciety, if the public had been more frequently warned from time to time of what was the express state of the law on this subject, and of what was the weight at which the gold coin of the country was current. He took some blame to himself that when he last held the officehe then filled, he did not communicate to the public by procla mation, the provisions of the law in this respect. But the House should bear in mind that it was only at par ticular times measures of this kind could be taken. But to defer the period till the evil became intolerable was not the course for a Government anxious to preserve the people from loss, to pursue. The evil was exactly in pro portion to the quantity ( f light coin in circulation, as the more there was of deficient weight the easier it was to reduce the remainder to the same standard, and thus making a profit from those to whom such coins should be passed. Under these circumstances it was necessary for Government, if the period was convenient, to take the earliest measures for withdrawing the light coin from circulation. The Hon. Gentleman complained that no step was taken to lead the public to suppose that the gold coin was diminished below what was required by law, and that this fact was not generally known to Parlia ment or the country. But every person in a public situa tion must have known that the gold coin was diminished in weight, and it appeared that such was the fact before the Committee that sat last year on banks of issue. It ap peared that much inconvenience was caused to the country banks by the refusal of the Bank of England to take coin under the weight, it not being a legal tender. The Bank made communications to Government upon this growing evil. And when he entered into office, repeated communications were made to him on the subject, not merely by the Bank of England, but by other banking establishments of the greatest respectability. The Hon. Gentleman thought it uncommon that no person was aware of those sovereigns being light, but the fact was, that complaints were made that the Bank of England did not take them. The law, as far as the Bank of England was concerned, was strictly adhered to, for it neither issued nor received a sovereign below its full Weight. This was also the ease in certain branches- of the revenue, so that, from the practice of the great public departments, and many private ones, a sufficient indica tion was held out to the public that coin below the legal weight would not be accepted as a legal tender of pay ment. It became the more necessary, because he must beg the House to observe that measures of thii kind could not be taken at every moment when it was expe dient, or when it was wished to take them. The Hon. and Learned Gentlemen bad said, why not defer the nieasure ? The answer was, that if such a course had been pursued, the evil would have been aggravated in a tenfold degree. What be would ask, was the present state of affairs in the country ? There had been a con tinual influx of bullion and gold into the country for some time, and was not that, he would ask, a period when the light gold coinage should be with. drawn ? That the evil was great was acknowlegded by, every man who knew anything of monetary concerns. He felt that if he rad omitted such a moment to re medy the evil, it probably would never occur again. That was the reason why the Government had adopted the course it had done. The Hon. and Learned Gentle man had said that the measure he (the Chancellor of j the Exclequer) h a d ' a dopted was at variance with pre cslelit. Now the Hon. and Leaned vGesitiOman tYuet i allow him to say that he thought that in the selection of his precedents he had been peculiarly infelicitous. He would not go back to precedents in the time of Henry bui lie would say a few words on the more recent ones. The Hon. Gentleman had referred to the silver re coinage, which had taken place i n 1816. Th e principles on which the gold and silver coin of this country were regulated were totally distinct and separate. The silver coin was a mere token, which the Government issued at a considerable advantage; it was a token issued by the Government upon which they made a large profit, whilst the gold coin was always a legal tender. The two spe cies of coinage, therefore, stood upon a totally differ ent footing. The course pursued in 1775 was in fact, if not in terms, precisely that which had been pursued on the present occasion. Notice was given by proclamation, that coins below a certain weight would be taken at the Mint price, received at the Mint and delivered to the public, and the public derived then, as they do now, the advantage of having the intrinsic gc,ld delivered taken at the rate of 31. 17s. lOid. The effect of that proclamatien was to divide the loss between the holder and the public. That was the prin ciple acted upon in 1773, and that was the principle now acted upon. If the Hon. Gentleman had consider d what he stated to be the expense at that time including the re-coinage, namely, 151,0001., he would have seen that the public in that character did riot bear the loss, but that the largest proportion must have been borne by the individuals who were the holders of the coin. The coin as issued from the Mint weighed five pennyweights three grains and a fraction. As issued to the public it was five pennyweights two grains and a fraction. There was this difference between the present case and that of the years 1775 and 1776. At that time the coin was uni versally depreciated, and it was in order to avoid re clueing the present coinage to the same state that the present favourable opportunity had been taken for withdrawing that portion of the gold coinage which was depreciated from the circula tion. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had not com plained of the mode the Government had pursued, I had complained of the proclamation as giving an abrupt and hasty notice, as having taken the public by sur prise. No one wished to surprise the public less than he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did—(A laugh) —but lie would be glad to know how such a notice could have been given without exciting surprise. If he had told the Hon. and Learned Gentleman in confidence. that a serious depreciation had taken place in the gold coinage, he doubted very much whether within a week the fact would not have been proclaimed at Charing Cross. The best way of dealing with the people of this country was to act in an open and straightforward manner.—(Cheers.) It the present state of things had been permitted to go on it would eventually have fallen with ten-fold force upon those very classes who were now suffering from the pressure. He was sorry for the pressure which they were enduring, but it was the in evitable consequence of the dishonesty of certain per sons. The Hon. and Learned:Gentleman, it seemed, said that he could propose a plan which would have effected the desired object in a manner better than the plan proposed by the Government. The Hon. and .Learned Gentleman proposed to send down to every town throughout the country a large sum of gold. Bo that on a certain day people might have their light gold exchanged for full weight. Now, that would only be an opening for fraud to an enormous extent. It would impose on the public an enormous charge, which in its reflex would operate on the very classes which the Hon. Member wanted to protect, by subjecting them to a tax to snake good the deficiency. Mr. C. BULLER explained that he had not said all the light coins should be exchanged, but only those that were light to a certain degree of deficiency. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER believed. even down to a certain deficiency, there were gentlemen in the City, who knew how to reduce a sovereign to the exact weight required.—(Hear, hear.) Not only would the sovereign now in use be sent in exchange for those of full weight, but also the new ones issued would be speedily returned to the Bank as light. He regretted as he had Said before, that there were persons dishonest enough to take advantage of the state of the currency and to impose upon the ignorance of the working classes. He understood, that not Only were deductions made from the value of the light sovereigns below their reai deficiency, but that there were people who refused to take even those of legal weight, without deducting sixpence each. Now, that was illegal ; and he was glad to have that opportunity of making it known, that those who refused to take the legal coin of the realm, were liable to im prisonment.—(Hear, hear.) Arrangements had been made with the banks throughout the country, and with the receivers in the different towns, to enable the people .to exchange their coins. He believed the inconvenience and alarm had greatly subsided ; that the people knew better the value of their gold, and would not be any longer imposed upon by dishonest tradesmen. If the light coin were not withdrawn, the evil would go on increas ing, and w ould come shortly with greater severity upon the working classes, whilst the derangement of the cur rency would become such as to produce incalculable mis chief to the commercial and trading classes. lie knew that they should get rid of the load which at present pressed so heavily on the monetary interest of the coun try, and it was with that feeling that the measure was adopted. Sir. B. HAWES said the Hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. C. Buller) was perfectly justified in the course he had adopted ; for if he had not done so, the whole of the objects, for which the subject had been discussed, would have passed away. The Right Hon. Gentleman had not undervalued the importance of the subject, nor bad he stated that Government had no right to interfere, but he had deprecated the adoption, on the part of the Government, of this proceeding, without any previous notice being given to the public. The Right Hon. Gen tleman had said that the proceedings quoted by the Hon. Gentleman were not altogether in point ; that the greater number of those proceedings referred to the silver coin. Granted. Take the case of 1774. What had been the course then taken by the Government ? Had it been in any way similar to the course now adopted ? It was said that the difference between that case and the present was, that then the .gold was uni versally affected, whereas now only a portion of it was affected. He could see no distinction between those cases, for the effect of the present proclamation was to discredit the whole coinage of the country. In the former case that had been referred to, a series of resolutions was passed by the H o use, a Bill was founded upon them; and the whole. matter was brought under its consideration, the decision being that the loss should be borne by the public. He could not separate the public from the Government, and he could see no ground in justice by which the loss ought to be charged to the last holder. The Right Hon. Gentleman appeared to have made no inquiry, and he had taken no steps to facilitate the exchange of depreciated coin. He proceeded by a jerk to disturb the coin of the realm, to the great incon venience of all classes, and of the poor in particular All former precedents were in favour of the principle of making the public bear the loss of the depreciation ; and, it appeared to him in addition, that the Govern ment should hivie taken some precautions to facilitate the exchange of light coin, and, if possible, to prevent the depreciation of gold for the future. He ventured to say that this was a subject of much importance, and his Hon. Friend was perfectly justified in bringing it under the consideration of the House. He thought the course taken by the Government deserved the most serious consideration of the House. Ho really thought that there ought to be a Committee of the House to inquire into the subject. Mr. F. I'. BARING, who spoke so low as to be scarcely audible, said he concurred with what had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite when he said that the gold coin of the country required re vision. The Right Hon. Gentleman said he considered that the present moment was peculiarly fitted for taking Some steps on the subject. He (Mr. Baring) believed that the turn of the exchanges, and the value of gold in; this country, placed it in the power of the Government to do so, and he thought they were justified in doing so before any serious public injury was caused. He con sidered that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not have been just to himself if he had delayed longer in taking that course. Having said thus much, he should further state that he considered his Right Hon. Friend was perfectly justified in bringing a subject of such im portance before the House. He thought it was an advantage to the public to have the question discussed in that House, in order that the public might not he mis led. He agreed with the Hon. Gentleman that the loss was divided between the holders of coin and the public revenue . With r-spect to the secresy to which his Hon. Friend had referred, he did not mean to say that arrangements cou±d not have been made fur afford ing greater convenience to the publi.!, but he thought it was possible that secresy itself would have led to incon venient results.—(l=lear.) Mr. BERNAL said he thought there was no occasion for entering into any elaborate view of the subject, the question was a practical one, and related solely to the inconvenience which the public had been compelled to submit to on this occasion. His Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated the law and the facts of the case with his usual accuracy ; but in a country like this there was something besides the strict letter of the law to be considered—there was the con venience of the public, and in order to secure this, they must sometimes depart from the strict letter of the law. His Right Hon. Friend had stated that it had for some time been known that the Bank and some departments of the revenue would not receive the light gold ; but he did not know that there was any private bank which would have dared to refuse a tender of sovereigns prior to the recent proclamation, whether they were below th• stand ard or not. His Right Hon. Friend must know that the transactions of the metropolis were not carried on solely by means of the great Bank, but by means of private banks. The proclamation came as a surprise upon the great bankers of the metropolis.—(" Hear, hear," from Sir Robert Peel.) He was looking to the interest of those who could not bear the loss, and not to that of the great capitalists ; and what he complained of was, that no means were taken for preventing inconvenience to the public at large. Did nut his Right Hon. Friend know that even within the last three days the pressure upon certain classes in the metropolis had been almost intole rable ?—(Hear, hear.) The little petty channels of business had been dammed up and choked ; trade had been paralysed. It had been found- impossible to pass gold coin, whether of the proper or of inferior weight ; dishonest tradesmen had chosen to avail themselves of that opportunity to impose upon their fellow-subjects, who were little able to bear such imposition.—(Hear.) The first announcement From the Bank, after the procla mation was ,issued, was that 50/ would be taken in. There was, however, a large class of petty shopkeepers who had in their possession nothing like that number—(Hear)—and there were, besides many working men, who received 205., 305., or 355. for their labour, who were all paid in gold, and who could not, get their coin exchanged. Even the order which had since been issued, lessening the amount to 201, did not take in all who were Suffering inconvenience, and in whose case - theniatter assumed the character of a grave sad striorii injustice. Lio 'nod of bis 1 ht HOD. . . POOR-LAW AMENthiENT The Order of the Day was then read for the House resolving itself into Committee on the Poor-law Amend ment Bill. Mr. HAWES presented a petition from several congreFations of Independents and Baptists, praying that ministers of those denominations might have free ac cess to the poor houses. Colonel SIBTHORP said, as he had always opposed this law, he felt it his duty first to oppoie the motion for going into Committee. When the Right Hon. Ba ronet proposed to renew the Poor-law for a period of five years, he thought it would, have been more manly and more straightforward if he had proposed to make the Commission perpetuai. The total' c. st of the Commis sion from 1834 up to 1840, was 557,6341., and adding to this the cost of the two following year, at the average rate of 41,0001. par year, the whole amount up to the present time would he 641.396/. He could see no use whatever for the continuance of the Commission ; the plan was atheitted by all to Le bad ; and such being the case, why were they asked to perpetuat4 t ? When the proper time arrived, he should take the sense of the House upon the quesion that the Commission should be discontinued. He preferred the old Poor law greatly to the present, and he should, therefore, take the sense of the House upon the question that the Bill be committed that day three months. Mr. WAKLEY said he was glad of any event that was likely to put a stop to the further progress of the Bill. His dizlike increased with its age. The more he heard of it, and the more he saw of it, the more invete rate did his hostility become. It underwent no mitiga tion in consequence of the Bill being fostered by the great Tory party in that House. Heaven knows the Whigs were execrated enough in consequence of their proposing the Bill, and it was well known that the Tory party took advantage of what the Whigs tlid, in order to put themselves in possession of power. The people were not unmindful of what passed, and it held out but a small example of political honesty. What the result would be he knew not, but he could not believe that it would be a fortunate one. The Hon. and Gallant Colonel who had just sat down had made a statement to the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home De partment, and he (Mr. Wakley) was perfectly persuaded that the IJon. and Gallant Colonel was sincere in his oppooition to the Bill. He gave him credit fur that sin cerity ; but the Hon. and Gallant Colonel must not fancy that he could make a scapegoat of the Right Hon. Baronet on that occasion. The Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary for the Home Department, exhibited no inconsistency or dishonesty in his advocacy of the Bill. Therefore he said that Honourable Gentlemen opposite should not, when they referred to that measure, speak of it as the measure of the Right Hon. Baronet, but us the measure of the great Tory party—of that party; which, when out it was out of power, was almost unanimously vociferous in condemning the principle of this Poor-law. —(No, no.) He knew there were exceptions. • The Right Hun. Baronet at the head of the Govt rnment was an exception. Be said the Right Hon. Baronet stood per 'feed:, excused in that matter. He was throughout the consistent advocate of the principles of the Poor-law Act. Therefore he exhibited no evidence of dishonesty. with toePect to that amino: The 6.3140 row* applied in. g greater degree to the Right Hon. Baronet the Seer_etarY for the Home Department, who was one of the Adminis tration of Lord Grey, by whom the Bill weas brought in. The Right Hon. Baronet then brought the whole weight of his ability in support of it; and he now brought , for ward the measure as the measure of her NLajesty's Ad ministration. He (Mr. Wakley) therefore said it was unfair to single out the Right Hon. Baronet as the only author and foster• father of the Bill in the House. Now if this was the case, how did the Tory party stand with the country ? Did they believe that the principle WAS less obnoxious because that party upheld it.? No; Its principle was equally hateful and detestable. It was obnoxious to public liberty and self-governatent in . this country. He therefore entertained a strong hostility to the measure, and his animosity was not 'in the slightest degree abated by this Bill being upheld by the Tar party in that House. The question before the House was simply with reference to the Speaker's leaving the chair ; but there was an incidental discussion, and .be thought it a most desirable thing that 'every obstacle should be thrown in the way of the further progress hostile this Bill. He thought that those who were.really h ost to it, and who felt what was the nature of the measure, were bound to . undergo some peril, and incur l'eri considerable responsibility, before they allowed it to pro ceed a single step. He regretted the division of Friday night, and be regretted that he had not an oppdritini t ); of participating in the discussion onthat occasion, en° he exceedingly regretted not recording his vote again st i the second reading. This Bill was sowing the seeds 4 revolution in this country, and he believed that it vise?' measure fraught with the greatest danger to the ins tft `' tions of England. They were passing, in point of fit'" a Coercion Bill against the poor of England—againstP the labouring poor of England. There was some thing the votes given for the second reading which he eu u li not comprehend. They decided five to one in faeour. the second reading. The tradesmen, the persons wi, gave the votes and returned Members to that House, SI denounced it. Nine out of ten tradesmen denounced it: —(No, no.) He spoke from his own experience."--le' those who said No, speak from " theirs. These pere° l r. all denounced it as a tyrannical and detestable 1i;'! - sure. Still those very voters returned . 'ge n i tlemeti to that House who voted in . favour :o f the measure. There was something very . lecompre • hensible in this. - Was there a compact, an ethane: going on between the aristocracy and tho voters agein s the poor ? Was there an understanding between these parties that the poor should be oppressed because the `e men would support that which would benefit the middle classes of society? He feared that there must, he sol implied understanding of this nature, otherwise he co ld not believe they would support such a measure in,thate-1; sembly. He feared that the Members of that House s tudio' the interest of the voters at the expense of the poor ilte ° ' and he thought, the, result , would be most disastrous' Were they prepared in tte present . state of - the country} with the most frightful distress :amongst all classes f'; society, the people almost starving-=were they prepar7, to say that the poor man should be oppressed becaus e he was poor? Was that the announcement they we ll ,, prepared to make considering the present aspect' of tea country? Yes, this was the announcement they Matle , '.., the people of England. Tile Act of Elizabeth was-<# benevolent measure. - The fault was that the Goo n ' ment appointed improper individuals tocarry it into OA; cution. There were incompetent individuals, , and th Government well knew it. Such were the' mag istrate s ' and yet these were the persons selected as ex-officio t ° form boards of guardians. Now, considering that til.: were defects with reference to the - administration.of t° l , law, this measure was a violent outrage on - public f 1,,,, ing. Why did they reject the Act of Elizabeth, and l'' troduce one wholly unknown to the Constitution.of Eng; land, by which a power was given to the Commission e l at Somerset House which the Crown and the two 119119‘; of Parliament did not possess? and this, not to prof the people, but to grind the poor into the du . % He repeated that that was his conviction. He said tha t , he was not- for continuing this Commission one Y es ' ' his conviction was that it ought not to be retained a ell Their power expired on July 31. If he had the p oei ,', he would continue the agitation of the question u nt il t's ci 31st of July. If he could devise any means—if he 00 the physical strength, nothing would deter him filler continuing that agitation until the 31st of July, in e ru o c H to get rid of that abominable institution. e spoke it i of the persons who composed that Commission; he - lu t i , nothing to allege against their individual chara cter s Ile made no attack on them. He spoke wholly of t.O law, to which he gave his most determined and vii o lo opposition. Now, ' look to the various parts of t• e f country for information. Had they petitions praying a s the Commission to be continued ? And if they had s tt , i ,s petitions, what- were the allegations in - support tif _`,. prayer ? He had seen no such petition during that Dv a i mon. He heard on all hands that there was no neeees7; for the continuance of the Commission if they would b 4 enact a good poor-law. Now, if they could legislate 4.z,, their own property and individual interests—if ti* could legislate for all the great powers in the cotuit, i 4 why could they not legislate for the poor also? Iv o f not put the poor within the pale of the law instead of , allowing them to be tortured at pleasure?—( l ',o hear.) The object . of, this Bill was to forte' . j i, instrument of torture to prevent the people from ePrto ing for relief. He had heard that the first object wet/ raise the ' wages of the working man. Had the. If done it? Had it not entirely failed? How was it t, O 0 otherwise ? Any man of common sense would i°l,l known this. How could it be otherwise, when the pa, ;A man was called upon to choose between whatever Of', offered, and a gaol ? The poor hungry man had 0 0 long time to consider. His children were crying Ito bread, his wife in a state of destitution ; he. had but o r choose between starving on the highways, 'Or tai o o ,l what wages offered. But the Commissioners inforn!,,t them that they had a discretionary power of graett'e, relief according. to the peculiar nature of the ;e' o f The Secretary for the Home Department said this rot a what they were called upon to .do. The dietary ws i e . high where there was low wages ; but on the i 1 urptio trary; and the variation in a dietary was from eri for adults down' to Is. 7d. Was not this mo. . They found that the amount where the agricultOrW) bourers' wages were 55., 65., and 7s. was is. 7d. - .i .,0 was raising the wages of the poor man. The poorlle had to choose between low wages, or the mis e r s o ti pittance of ls. 7d. a week. If the Commissioners It, done their duty they would have adopted a contrary t t ;4 Now, , in London, where the wages varied from 1 8 5 . t . 1 1 week to 405., the dietary was 21 ounces Of ru o iho bread 112 ounces ; while in Cirencester it was 98. ~,J , meat in London was 21 ounces, in Cirencester .5 pu n ' - An HON. MEMBER—What date is that? . . - o6te c Mr. WAKLEY—That was last year. In . Ciren e ',; et 2- i lbs. of potatoes, in London 61bs. In London 4 P o- of soup, in Cirencester 2 pints. In London 14 oun ces . 0 0 cheese, in Cirencester 7 ounces. In London 10. p es t milk porridge, in Cirencester none, and no ecints' s e3 In London 71bs. of pudding, in Cirencester none , . r e rr no equivalent. In London 11 pints of beer, in Cl tell tester none, and no equivalent. In London buttertoe sugar, &c., were allowed, in the country nothing ( ?'„eo kind. Now did they consider that the Comrnisel ° ' ot i' had discharged their duty to the public? The .6 1 e missioners in the last report stated that the Old kr', law was characterised by a causeless difference. P. i iio ferent system of management was' formed in r i .r i ~as perfectly similar and in the same- neighboarheod; •l ios eil to abolish the causeless difference that the central is was appointed. And yet they found thit the diet,if ene place was 21 ounces, and in another 5; and this 1 0 0 in a place where wages were so low that a .reau Ile scarcely subsist upo.: it. Now, he asked the Hight ,01 l Baronet if he could vindi ate such a systemPlinP o irl, was proposed, to renew the Commission for five y ea ,:e fact, wilt' a view to its becoming perpetual. Li e her e , again, that it was monstrous that here in London , oo h wages were three times the amount, the dietary ' P o t , ' be so much higher. Were they so ignorant _as lit' entirely incapable of legislating for the pocieL.l, l . ' - 49 them abdicate at once. If they could not seclef this, it was their duty to resign. How were the ef. t° missioners, sitting in a closet in Somerset 11° 115 , th e judge of the circumstances of cases so well 0 ie tate-payers, who were fully competent to g ° ?li the merits of a case, who knew the district ,o there was a discretionary power, it ought t hl 4 ,, exercised by Justices alone. There was sori l , e i ii tll! preposterous and repugnant to common sense itt n i b „ 5k this tyrannical power to parties incapable of 11 '"fttli, There was no court of appeal for the pour niall• c ill a l guardian refused to give him relief the Magistrat e ;IS give him none. He had condemned the conduct oes Magistrates, but it would be better for them to hi e " power. The poor man made application to the re,o o l officer, and he was told he could get no rend , ' a, I . must see the Board ; he does see the B" 9r r ell,,, e ' having heard his tale they may refuse hill' dlieP4, Why not leave it in the hands of the guardi 3fl i c ok;f ; selves? Why tell the poor they would be ati s : o o,44 give relief if they were allowed by the Commi s6l $0"4: and the poor visited all their execrations on ti le d av' df r in Somerset House. But they themselves deser v h c e b o a" execration if they permitted this. Where was t ', 1 e5 1 ,, / to of appeal for the poor? He wished to have that g to tit" h t, answered. And this was the law they were to st i br oeg b „ , 'for the Act of Elizabeth. It was that law which an d ° li i, so much odium upon the Whig administratiout le at i t o r ; tamed such popular favour for the party oppo se :ite„, last election.—(Hear, hear.) If there was ° 'ri c '.4' occasion now he did not think they would el e c etOoe' r , the same reception at the hustings. Their lea toe. 10 . 0 -, would not be very musical'. He Should be r g„ SI E o r present at some of them.—(Laughter.) ' - ' - "p„ - • 01 1 4 were hated, despised, and detested—and ju st t o lll t he_ that law, and now the party opposite wereo.lsd of int o their footsteps.—(Hear, hear.) They were e c arne pg• iniquity of the Whigs for a time, and theY the rei ° o o power in consequence; but they would not h e ac iche s , st et —(A laugh.) Before that day twelvemon th % dissuijoe would be presented to the Queen praying fa d e d tOke of tion of Parliament, and if the Queen ace go ld w - :lie wishes of the people, he thought the House : on e _,,,) a different complexion from what it was at py G l a 1 ! , 1 1 10 would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman (s ir t l3 •eg whether there was any provision in the linvorkoott." meet the various objections urged against 0,,att.„,01 of the present system? The Right Nol:istrictilyk, alluded particularly to the appointment of l ' to boat , . Committees. What were their function Eig ht - 34 ,-- - (Hear, hear.) It was a mockery. T he o r ooel‘ e ,:00 1- Gentleman did not so mean, but it wa s re - 0114.0f (Hear, hear.) Their functions were to 4 Golestr4 plaints and transmit them to the Boards ' l gor , ons er who were to report to the Commissioners- ,`,f,the . efe! But what in the mean time was to become e, . 10 0 !" (Hear, hear.) Those unions were too la o ce b o re In • the Commissioners had not the power to ¢t t t ' sor ae il'; convenient sizes. The poor were put te,.l c e in. w iles 1 consequence of the size of the u nions, wi ,, ', , ,oti ce t eete t, ; . ; stances were sixteen, or eighteen, or, o ' r ed° done .., diameter, and there was no power_ t na , vi es . to tp . This was a great grievance, and nothi _ reselit ad t g oiog , remedy it. Several petitions had been the r Wes _ a froto : :! House complaining of this' . evil from ~.o rd ; , 1 . , yaw of Yorkshire ; from St. Nieholes, P i' g eOli . Keladugt ol3, N./4kb uniou saccerigsi . I Friend to understand that the evil was not. yet - eured, and that he ought to do everything in his power to meet an evil of which everybody complained. ~~ Sir. R. PEEL observed that, if the evil occasioned by the light coin had been allowed to go on, it would have been ' impossible to have imagined the consequences. Every hour of delay would have increased the. evil in the country, and it therefore became the advisers of the Crown to take some decisive steps. The Hon. Gentle man seemed to think that her Majesty's Government had suddenly determined to issue the proclama tion. They had done no such thing. (Hear, hear.) It was true that parties on that side of the House did not know of that intention, and instead of looking upon that as a charge-against the Go - vert:tient, he thought it was the highest compliment that could be paid to them, as the worst results might be ex pected from making such a circumstance public. Now, in order to show that the prinlipal bankers in the metro polis were aware of the inconvenience from the light coinage, he would read a letter sent by them to the Lords of the Treasury, dated in January of the present year. (The Right Hon. Gentleman then read the letter, which urged upon the attention of the Government the alarming depreciation of the gold currency, and recom mended that the bankers should be encouraged to clip all the light coin which came to their hands, and that the Bank of England should take all the light gold brought there at the full value of 31. 17s. lOid. per ounce. The letter was signed by Messrs. Masterman anc Co. ; Glyn, Halifax, and Co. ; Smith, Payne, and Co. ; and several o her London bankers. This showed how sen sible the bankers were of the danger of the present state of the currency. The Hon. Gentleman, however (Mr. C. Buller), thought that the distress of the country was a strong objection to the time w hich the Government had chosen. But he did not look to the fact that the very favourable state of the exchanges rendered the pre sent time an exceedingly convenient one for effecting the change.—(Hear.) The influx of gold into the country greatly favoured the operation of Calling in the coin with the least possible inconvenience. (The• Right Hon. Baronet then read a letter from Mr. Horsley Palmer, in which he also pressed most strongly on the Government the necessity ofsome such measure, and expressed the strongest apprehensions for the consequence if it were delayed.) On this part of the case, he (Sir R. Peel) would not dwell longer after the very manly and sensible speech of the . Right - Hon. Gentleman, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, who had said most .truly that continued representations had been made to the Government.as to the alarming state of the currency ; and that he only delayed such a measure on account of the peculiar posi tion in which he was placed—(Hear)—and the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. F. Baring) only doubted whether the GoVernment ought not to have taken some minor measures of precaution against inconvenience. As to the period of the proclamation, the evil would have been increased by delay. They were aware of the suffering of the country, but that could not operate with them as a justification for not applying a remedy to the evil. He totally differed from the Hon. Gentleman in his opinion that the Treasury ought to bear the loss. The Treasury was the greatest safeguard against a lavish expenditure of the public money, and not the House of Commons. The Hon. Gentleman had referred to the silver coinage of the reign of William the Third, and had stated that the Government took the opinion of Mr. Locke upon it. They did so : they con sulted Mr. Locke, but they did not act on his opinion. He advised that the silver coin should be called in and taken at its value according to weight. But the Government preferred a more liberal resolution of the House of Com mons, and the consequence was, that an encouragement was given to the clippers to continue their practices. Ha had shown them what the conseqUence was of rject ing Mr. Locke's opinion. The nation was thrown into such a state of confusion, that our people were ready to pay out of the public purse in order to relieve themselves frOm the difficulties to which their con cerns were exposed. The consequence of delaying the proclamation would be, that every man would immediately apply himself t o . th e clipping of gold, which would be carried on to a greater extent then be fore. With respect to the motion of the Honourable Gentleman, he (Sir H. Peel) did not think it right, as it invo;ved an attack on the Government, to insist upon the technical rules of the House for preventing' the course sought to be adopted by the Hon. Gentleman: He trusted, however, that the example of the Hon. Gentle man would not be followed up by any other Hon. Mem ber, as great inconvenience to the public business would result from it. Mr. C. BULLER explained. He felt obliged to the House for the indulgence ,extended to him on the present occasion, and he agreed with the Right Hon. Betronet, that nobody else ought to follow the same course.— (Laughter.) With respect to the observations of the Right Hon. Baronet upon m hat had fallen from him (Mr. C. Buller). he must state that he never proposed that any private intimation should be given .of the course meant to be pursued by Governmet.t in this affair. He com plained of the want of proper preparation being made for the proclamation. _ . _ After a f,..w words from the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, Mr. HUME said that he admitted it would have' been unwise of the Government to have taken any course which would have come into effect at a distant period. He believed the Government had no other choice. but to issue the proclamation at once. He only regretted that that step had not been taken sooner, as it had. been well known for some time that a considerable depreciation had taken place in our gold coin. He also thought that precautions should have been taken to facilitate the ex change of light gold. .He believed that many of the in couvenierves which had followed the issuing of the pro clamation might have been obviated if the Government had appointed an officer in each town, whose duty it would have been to pay the full value for gold according to its weight. As the matter had been managed, he be lieved that the holders of depreciated coin had suffered three times the loss they ought in justice to have incurred. He thought that the currency ought to be under the sole management of the Government,. and no individual should be allowed to have any profit from it. Instead of the coinage being allowed to circulate for 25 years, as had been the case at present, the coin should, beealled in from time to time. However, he gave the Right lion. Baronet great o•edit for meeting the difficulty at 'once ; but he thought that there ought to have been a better preparation, by enlarging the silver currency, and by a small issue of IL notes. He hoped the Government would not let the matter go on again as it had gone on heretofore; but the proclamation should, be thought, keep people always on their guard. He regretted that the motion was brought forward in the present form, be cause he thought that there ought to be a Committee of Inquiry. One thing before he sat down he wished to say, that, up to the last moment the Government continued to issue light gold in the payment of its own servants. Captain BERKELEY explained that what he had stated in an earlier part of the evening, as to the loss en dured by the crew of her Majesty's ship Pique, and the artificers in the dockyards, inconsequence of being paid in light gold, was confirmed by a letter which he had re ceived that day from Mr. Harrison, of th,!. Hampshire Telegraph. It was not to be supposed that the pro prietors of the Railway would acknowledge any share they had in such an extortion. Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said that he had it on the authority of Admiral Bouverie himself, that there was no truth in the statement that 37 light sovereig,ns were paid to the men in the dockyards on one night since the issuing of the proclamation, and he thought-that the Admiral Nas better authority than the Editor of the Hampshire Telegraph He (Sir G. Cockburn) had made all the inquiries he could on the subject of the Pique, and he believed that the Gallant Gentleman op pi.site was misinformed. Lord EBRINGTON thought, in the present state of scienca some more effectual remedy might be adopted than an annual proclamation. After a few words from Mr. Attv.vood, Mr. Turner, and the Chancellor of the Excheqner, the subject dropped. .~' $~ ,~