The Sun. — London, England, 1849-07-20 00:00:00

sioners e meant the event of th e 3 obviate the iG H air the .t.ited by the s agreed to'. r with a Ye' talon of it° C i s resent 9 - tOC , ratio " g „ i el h i s clatl ie ragebiD er ii sanction 0 guar ds, 5 tire 0 - f o the eertib ota It 0 of rewovi l rho C ountle i teridroc v „ ' o ce educe 1 , 0 ,7 bit to t to do owl of tool* o r to sail Ab e fr ) c arry iced. I should 1; ild bring ion to eba l t , ° u b poor P e ho resPe- c b s as if iji ! on or parOli Benth• CIO t.ls 1 0 l ers wer e , r i 'yen were io r on g ;c• divide GL, ogress, lo :lock or c l ' ot sed at ;° reral Bill°' Pe titio° _,„ r i the 13,"'" t itioe et l e pe / 00/ 01 oetition ..0 arse o to ""ce ~,por it• ty -.0 tabl o. A to pe.a red h e 3510 0 fG ch ron- o 7 o f as r e j o lainea• .xistencuof ite P e0 613° /J 1610 11 t tin efi• Of g r 0 1 TO s e as 0 0 of Dr l o 3 is o Officerrei atiragoi, eh, he • 0 1 xecurog ,r the Ind ll o s P e i ;ni were be lace 0 ! lip eat O ri t l e ro .El l6 ' he ' L is led Sri. t J3s ; sins. Do e perS t be 1,1E0 9° 4 3 6 tteOP f "i • ber °° e ., 4 ad ), ye vilw e -col ey e o rae seo bs ° l ever d )0 b e of • s tets'', f ID I TO aeOte u e f Of um 1 •0 - tiO ° ent. t mad el inntb fie. ) pro o o, ery 0 1,0 ot bi ll ' of ,ideoce of So tbe d 0 Bosr b . ichl of • 4 , oh, P P e ti LIId 09 ‘ f 0 si s bOy e the P r co" ose t it ° II )11 ,is allf 7 t o authe° pea ; hO l ily+l" b y a 5 i° ald -. ed to. THE 'RUN% own side or the House, told him his motion was very tLstight—he perf ect l y agreed i n it, but he could not go a•to Same lobby as the Hon. Member for the West Riding. (Laughter.) Another Ho n . G en tl eman on t h e other , a good Radical reformer, said the motion was quite light—he agreed in every word of it—but when be saw it meet with the support of the Conservative party it was impossible for him to vote for it. Now, he would ask, was it r i g h t to play with the great interests of the country in such a manner ?—(Hear, hear.) Inde pendent Members had now more power, because it had ever been found that a small compact body could always beat in detail a much larger one. They all knew what different speeches they would hear from Honourable jGentlemen on the other side of the House on that sub bect were the Conservative party seated on the Treasury enches.—(Hear, hear.) Th e i r e l oquent t ongues were sent now —they keep the topic for a time to be used with Power upon simple people when the Whigs may use it as a stepping-stone into power. There was no greater difference of opinion amongst the advocates of retrenchment than there existed among any other body nf men ; they mi g ht ver y we ll di scuss t h e b est mo d e of doing a thing, b ut am id st t h e i r d i ff erences an i ngen i ous play off one against another,gentleman was, might very well and , e ase- But th e s h ort and the l ong o f t h e story lv a that that [louse had to say, " You shall not have so much money." No doubt thy' i lnuse would not agree to rest upon assertion on such a l i question ; th ere f ore he was prepared w i th authority. e anxiously desired, on that occasion, to avoid either inflammatory or exaggerated language, because he knew full well there existed a greater expecta tion of relief to be derived from retrenchment amongst Othvesr, the public than there was any foundation for. More public thought that the whole amount of taxa tion levied upon the country was as completely wasted from the resources of the country as if such an amount was thrown into the sea. But that was not the fact. whatever the amount of taxation, a great portion of it did return into the country again. There existed no necessity for exaggeration upon the subject. All they had to show was that the amount of taxation was in seas, e and th a t t h e mo d e o f l evy i ng i t was un j ust. H e o mean to apply his observations to the present Administration more than to any other, but to show the inequality of tax a ti on . T a k e , f or exam pl e , t h e d u ty on bhighest priced p r i n t e d co tt ons —it was 10 p er cen t. ; on the very commonest kind, which was worn by the very poorest class, it was 50 per cent. He would be answe red, that that duty was repealed l—yes, but they had not repealed the principle on which the tax was laid. Again, the duty on leather was calculated by ieig ...( ht. Now, every one k new that a coun t r y man ' s !hoes weigh e d more t h an 100 pa i rs o f t h ose worn b y a iav( iy... flear, hear.) On wine the duty was 100 per cent. On the beer of the people it was 175 per cent. Stamps and probate he would not waste the time of the House by touching on. But it was the fact that the whole establishments of the country, of every kind and sort, were pitched at in on at too c hig firm ha a r t s io te n . The fir s t e v idence he would adduce of his views was from the jouynalwicuhawaesrly Review, the organ of the late Administration—viz., the Quarterly which said:—" If we are to keep our place (as a nation), it is indispensably necessary that every incumbrance should be removed, as well by individuals as by the Go vernment. Every branch of the administration must be purified —every department must submit to examination and improvement—wealthy as the country is—even the most ancient of our institutions ought and could no longer support the burden of places or proceedings that can possibly be dispensed with. No branch of those in stitutions ought to be touched that can be left alone; still there is an imperative necessity to submit many of them to alteration and reduction." He believed that to be exactly the state of the case, and unless that House, by some strong resolution, compelled, if necessary, or strengthened the hands of the Government, if they were willing to make those changes which were necessary— matters must become worse. He was further strength ened in recommending the alterations and the reductions generally by a passage in a dispatch which had lately been presented to the Hou;e—a dispatch from Lord Elgin to the Secretary for the Colonies—in which he recom mended a deduction upon all salaries above 100/., on ac count of the revenue being below the expenditure and the Populatio n in a state of distress. That he held to of n.j.usds;iofiuenattriyonyvoafsthe step he recommended. The case t hat ttit id _Colonnot assent to the proposition quite in an analoous state. Lord when made in Y, but he did in another; for he found Lord ..inreY' declaring that there should be a complete revision 1 ,. the financial condition of Jamaica. In Guiana, when :44140e_eur,esewas a threat of a stoppage of the supplies, a re tic was made on the subject by a Committee of the . and, if he remembered rightly, that report had ! ) .e. n drawn up by Sir Robert Peel.—(Hear.) The next t h a t / I g, then, that he desired was an alteration in the mode of taxation — thatl was by relieving the poor, and making glaaxradoedonasproefss more severely on the rich. To that the neXt thing that he had at heart, and that which he re d f • most consequence, was to take some mea sures or d i minishing the burden of the national debt. ' was, he said, the great point, and, among other Measures • was this, gentlemen talked of the recovery of agriculture.etresesoutitisoftatnheofuti was quite true that they could raise five n an t d t_ha ( t H th e e s y o n_ow did of consumable arti there could be no doubt at avthlalaiontfeththat; but, at the same time, no one could doubt then e ' xpenditure of capital would be greater than the terest th or the Produce when it was raised. 'I he only way to e 3' could give relies was to lower the rate of in productive such an extent that capital might be employed tha t productive industry, where it was now employed in n ow which was non-productive.—(Hear.) H e would si-'1127 conclude with reading a passage from Burke, to dest w the necessity of supporting a Government when it ilred to be enabled to carry such a resolution as ha lnur proposed into effect. Instead, then, of' attacking i er Majestys Ministers, he wished to encourage them 4 sueporting the resolution which he now did, and the enforcement of which he believed to be necessary for this co untry. n,The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER o b serve d Th . " at the Hon. Gentl e m an , i n briuging forward this —o tion, did not desire it to be understood as a censure u pon the conduct of her Majesty's Government. The Government during the last two ye a r s , h a d prove d i ts ire de ' cure to enforce economy, by carrying into effect re ductions as far as it was possible to effect them with a due regard to the efficiency o f t h e pu bli c serv i ce, and f urther than that he was sure the Hon. Gentleman him self would not desire to carry them.—(Hear.) The . "nn• Gentleman had spoken of his desire to lower the rate of duties imposed upon articles of consumption by the poorer classes; he had complained that, comparing the price of these articles with the duties, it was higher than the duty upon articles of a higher price. The sub ject was one that had been much discussed, whether it was better to have an ad valorem duty or a fixed and ratio duty. The tendency of all legislation was to get rid of an ad valorem duty, and to do this as tendirg to promote the introduction into consumption of articles that were used even by the poorer classes. In several instances where Committees had baen appointed to in quire into the subject of ad valorem duties, they had uniformly recommended a low rate and fir.Fd duty as that which was the most beneficial to the trade and com merce of this country.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Gentleman had then said that it would be desirable to take taxation off the poor and impose it upon the rich ; but the Hon. Gentleman did not tell them of the process or the mode of doing that. This, however, he said— that the whole tendency "of their legislation for the last f ew' years bad been in that direction. Hardly ever was there a period in which so large an amount of taxation had been taken off the great body of the people, and its amount made up by taxes upon income and upon pro rrtY, than between the years 1842 and 1849. The re- Uction of taxati on i n t h at t i me upon Lie raw materials °f m anufactures and upon ar ti c l es o f consumpt i on b y t h e r o t bod y o f the people, amounted to no less than r ; °°,oo ol. Such was t h e amount of taxes reduced or ~.o!Pealed; and the deficiency thus created was made up ,taxes imposed upon the richer classes of the commu nity, That was the course the Hon. Gentleman recom mended The articles used by the poor were those on petoi h the taxes had been reduced or repealed, and the : a s made up by taxes upon the 400,000 or 500,000 unless thellans described ho paid the income tax, and who might be d the richer classes of the community. Now, they were nen. Gentle e rr! l e f oubled the income-tax, he did not see how Gentlem ide......ur ( ther in the course proposed by the Hear, hear.) But then the Hon. Gentlemenonld9lnaot diminish they n alional debt. indispensable to pay off or B ir ut st h oc o k w h sv:s n i o t t t h o in b g e . do T n h e? e but this titsewllasthe nun. Gentlettlan might be a better Is financier than he was he must ye.that he himself' had never yet been thing without theme able to discove tmoneym od et to pay a which r it. —(Laughter.) d u g buy hter . a ) n y I f the public were to put money into his pockets to buy up that StO ck, it would be impossible to do so without laying on ;th e :l l:f t o is n ,. to create a sinking fund; and to do Gentleman would be to resort to % n exploded doctrine. The Hon. Gentleman said that producing the es greater than it was times greater power of this country might be made five able capital. Re; consider (t b h u e t c t , o han d e o el s le o r would ethe E re x q c u h ir e e . quer) did look forward to a judicious expenditure of Ga onPa the land, so as to render it more capable of Meeting the demands of consumers; but to do that, the Eon. Gentleman said there must be a lowering of the rate of interest. The rate of interest, they all knew, had been low enough in this countr it had b een y and the conseq uence o f most disastrous speculations. He had heard numerous complaints in the City that money might be of had f land a or li per cent, and e ven now, looking at the Bank be no Enndher quarters, t h ere seemed to him to lack of ca it a l to a lowering ofpthe, and the tendency even now was !Flotation s of the Share ordinary rate of interest. The in railroads were risin ' Market. showed that the shares tendency to a lower gralte price, and that there was a that interest. —( Hear, hear.) But then it might be sate v;tethe Government ought to reduce its expenditure. so. An Hon. Friend behind hi 11, they had been doing so enough. Now 'he said than:, said they had not done ago, the Government was not able t t a year and a half wands made upon it from the manufeacmeet all the de protect the lives and properties of those towns to those manufacturing towns.—(Hear, heare ) dwelling in had made in the present year a reduction i Now the y to the n um b er o f 10,000 men, and a naa.ofet the ar my fßouse h a d d ec id ed that the reduction had) been of that ar enough. There had been a reduction of 3,o2rried in the navy, and the opinion of the House was, men these. two reductions had been carried sufficiently thatat Within the two years the amount of reduction ? i n th r e . estimates was 2 ,360,0001., and when such was the case, charge did not think that they were open fairly to the of being indisposed to make a reduction in the. expenditure of the country. On this point too a ma jmoreity .of the House had concurred with the Govern th eetreliell declaring that it would not bP advisable that had been.notions should be carried farther than they ley) had One H onourableGentleman (Mr. H en knew that proposed a reduction of salaries • and he a large min lofthat 'voted 4 ge neral re ,,__~ ori y %mutton of salaries, lie knew also that no inconsiderable portion of the minerity had so voted in order that if the motion were carried, they might graft oven it sonic amendment of their own. The fact was, that the salaries of those in public offices, not taking into account the advantages they bad previously enjoyed, and of which they were now deprived, were lower now than before the war took place. Then they had diminished and consolidated several offices. In the Pay Office the reduction amounted to not less than 16,000/. There was a reduction of 35 persons. There was a reduction of 47 per cent. in the whole amount of the salaries, and a re duction of 33 per cent. as to the persons employed. A similar inquiry had been carried on iu.the Home-office, and there the reduction amounted to 3,774/. a year. Gentlemen talked of the enormous numbers employed in the Government. The whole establishment of the Home office was 18, of the Treasury 24, exclusive of the Par liamentary officers. Now, the whole number employed in all departments connected with the Treasury was 130 (as we understood). and in the French Treasury the number of clerks was not less than 500. Comparing themselves with other countries, their neighbours, he believed there were one-tourth less employed in England. The reduction in the Mint was 10,000/, in the Ordnance office 4,000/. As to patronage, he had himself an office in his gift of 6001. a year, and he abolished it. For Chelsea Hospital the assistant-secretaryship had been put an end to, and a saving effected of 1,7001. a year. In the Stationary-office there was a saving of 31,000/. in the printing, and ultimately of 50,000/. The attention of the Government was unremittingly directed to the same subject. And now he must remark that a diffi. cults was caused by that House itself. Returns were ceded for, and then complaints were made of a delay in those returns, when it was impossible speedily to comply with such orders with reduced establishments. They were at one time told they were looking for patronage, and then they were pressed to appoint Commissioners. As Chancellor of the Exchequer, he must say that the greater part of his official life had been passed in re sisting the pressure of that House for additional expen diture. He could assure the Hon. Gentleman that upon this point the Government required not to be urged; that they were determined to make every reduction that was consistent with the interests of the country. As the resolution expressed or implied a censure upon the pre sent and the past Governments, he could not so far agree with it.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. HUME was, he said, almost ashamed to address the House, as he had to observe upon statements that had been four times made in that House and four times contradicted. As to the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Druat mond), he had scarcely done justice to his own motion. Upon this subject of economy the House of Commons was to blame far more than Ministers. Last year, when the renewal of the income-tax was proposed, and an in crease was proposed, the House of Commons expressed its opinion so plainly against the increase that the Noble Lord immediately tried back"—the proposal was revoked without a division being come to. He admitted that the present as well as the past Government had made great and economical changes.—(llear, hear.) He did not deny the benefits arising front the financial re forms which had been already effected, but they did not go far enough. The great cost of the army and navy must be revised before anything like satisfactory eco nomy could be established in the miiitary and naval expenditure of the country. In the civil branches of those departments retiring allowances were given to men who, though in perfect health, were super annuated after a certain period of service. The superannuation allowances, also, made to admirals, were most extravagant. The Right Hon. Baronet had said that the country ought to be satisfied with the economical changes that had been already effected; hut he (Mr. Hume) denied that they had any right to be so satisfied. The expenditure of the country had been raised from an average of 52,000,0001. sterling to that of 57,000,0001. wittin the last four years. Was .that cause of satisfaction? He contended that in order to effect satisfactory financial reforms they must reduce the cost of the army and navy; they must also make the colonies support themselves, and finally they must re model their whole system of taxation. He should cor dially support the motion of the Hon. Gentleman. Mr. EWART thought that these efforts to reduce taxation should proceed in the direction of those taxes which pressed on the industry and commerce of the country, particulary the Excise duties, which were the most oppres , sive that were ever imposed on any coun . ry. Mr. M. GIBSON had on a former occasion, when the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Drummond) had brought for ward a motion relating to financial reform, moved the previous question, because the motion being only for a Committee of the House, and the objects which the Hon. Gentleman had shadowed forth in his speech on that occasion, as those which he would seek to attain in Committee, being such as he (Air. Gibson) could not agree with, he could not consent to go into Committee upon them. On the present occasion, however, as the Hon. Gentleman sought in his motion to pledge the Hou , •e generally to a resolution that there existed a large mar gin in the public expenditure of the country which might be cut down without injury to the effective government of the country, he at once acceded to the proposition, because it concurred with his own convictions. It was a proposition which might be regarded as instructional to the Government, encouraging them to go on in the course of retrenchment they had entered upon, and could not be considered in the light of a vote of censure upon them, or indeed upon any Government, but rather upon the system which had hitherto been allowed to exist in the country. It would strengthen the hands of the Noble Lord when urged in the recess by military and naval men to increase expenditure in those departments, if he could point to a resolution on the journals of the House of Commons recommending re trenchment. He (Mr. M. Gibson) was in a difficulty when he defended th e G overnment , f or not hi ng wou ld persuade men that there was economy until there was a reduction in taxation. The Hon. Member for Montrose alluded to the civil list—a very delicate question, a large proportion of it being out of the control of the Crown, and apportioned by Parliament for the payment of public officers. All the Hon. Member for Nlontroie required, however, was that those receiving money from the civil list should prove their services; he would not pay use less officers, and he would relieve the civil list of such persons. No man could conscientiously say that there existed no needless officers, no useless places, no extra vagant salaries. There was the Lurd-Lieutenancy of Ireland, which cost 150 000/. a year. The spirit of the times was adverse to that needless pageant, and the in tercourse between the countries was so ready, that the government of Ireland could be readily carried on from London. Then there was the slarestrade squadron, a most unnecessary expense. All these facts justified a vote in favour of the Hon. Gentleman's motion, and the House would stultify itself if it negatived a proposition for economy, come from whence it might. The military expenses of the country had inerea, ed as the chances of expendedofthe nationalin war had dimi n i s h e d. F ive or six hundred millions had been fl'r therefore war—nearly u t h p e whole - deht. preparations u e should port the motion. Colonel THOMPSON said, that if he might be per mitted to stat e t h e po i nts upon which he agreed with and differed from, th e H on. Gentleman, with a view to giving his vote in support of the Hon. Gentleman's mo tion, he would say that the Hon. Gentleman had one foot of iron upon which he might stand in defiance of all arguments against his motion, and that was, that there was not a fair partition of' taxation on the working classes. Now, if they looked to the taxation upon such an article as tobacco, they would find that by the manner in which that taxation was made the working man paid eleven times as much as the rich consumer of that arti cle. And when he heard the Chancellor of the Exche quer say there was a sort of balance in the case of the income tax, he could not agree to it until he found that the rich man paid something like eleven times as much as the poor man. As to the policy of paying off the na tional debt, he thought they must some • day have a friendly passage of aims. He could not understand how it was to be paid off except at the market value, and he feared that if it were paid off we should be told to-mor row, " Oh, you are a happy nation—you have no debt;" and the first thing we should do would be to get into debt again.—(A laugh.) He would al,o take that op portunity of saying that Hon. Gentlemen ought not to be too hasty in forming an opinion in consequence of what was considered as the report of the African Com mittee. In the main, that report was the opinion of the Chairman ; for generally there was an equal division of the Committee, and he then gave his casting vote He (Colonel Thompson) hoped, therefore, that the re port would go forth to the world as the opinion of the Chairman. Lord R. GROSVENOR thought one thing was evi dent—that there was a great difference of opinion as to the remedy by which the evil complained of was to be met. To the resolution he thought there was no sub stantive objection, but the arguments in support of it ought to be borne in mind, or it might give a notion to the public out of doors that the present Government and others before th em h a d b een excee di ng l y remiss in endeavouring io reduce taxation—a charge which he thought could not be fairly made. The House would not fail to observe that the Hon. Member for West Surrey and his Ri g ht H on. Friend agreed upon th i s subject. His Right Hon. F r i en d ma d e no o bj ect i on to a res , lution pledging the G overnment or the country to a reduction of expenditure, and he himself thought a resolution might be prepared which would be unani mously agreed to by that House. He would therefore suggest that that resolution should run thus :—" That whereas no greater amount of taxation ought to be levied upon the people than is required for the good and efficient government of the United Kin g d om; an d whereas it is expedient that inquiry should take place whether there may not be some needless places, some salaries too large, and some works that may b e unne cessary—it is the opinion of this House that a vigilant superintendence ought to be exercised over the expen diture, so that every reduction may be made that will not be of detriment to the public service." If the Hon. Gentleman would not consent to adopt that altera tion he (Lord R. Grosvenor) would move it as an amend. ment to the Hon. Gentleman's motion. Mr. DRUMMOND was understood to decline adopt ing the alteration proposed by the Noble Lord, and it was then put from the chair as an amendment. Mr. ROEBUCK said, surely the House was not going to adopt such a resolution as was proposed by the Noble Lord, for it was the identical proposition that that House ought to do its duty—that whereas there were many needless places and so on, therefore the House ought to be vigilant in reducing the expenditure. Could the House understand a proposition of that sort? He could understand the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman the Member for West Surrey, for that stated distinctly and categorically that the expenditure was too great, and he hoped the House would not for an instant pass Over what was a real and substantive proposition, to ac cept on e w hi c h was evidently put forwar d as a makeshift and excuse to escape from a plain-spoken and proper proposition. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that this was a sort of charge against the Government. Hc.t (Mr. R oe b uc k) accepted it in that meaning. He be lieved that it was and that it ought be a charge against the Gover nment, and he would ask any one who w i s h e d for a sort of historical recollection for the holydaye to LONDON, PRIIIAY EVENING, JULY 20, lB4O. take the years 1815 and go to 1830, and to consider the proceedings of the Governments, the old Tory Govern , meats of those days—Conservatives were not discovered at that time. In 1830 the House saw two remarkable events—a Government a ith an overflowing Exchequer, and the Whigs with a maj or ity on a inotihn'for economy. The Duke of Wellington's Administration in 1830 was dis placed, and it was a very remarkable event. us it bore upon an observation made by the Hon. Member for Montrose that evening—it was displaced on a motion made by Sir H. Parnell - on the civil list of that day, and it was a curious circumstance connected with that vote and the subsequent proceedings of the Whig Ad ministration, that although by that motion they voted that the Government of that day was extravagant in a civil list of 900,0001., having got a majority and turned out the Government, they within a few months brought in the same identical civil list with a diminution of only 5 000/, and the only distinction was that part of it was made a permanent charge which was before granted only for the life of the Sovereign. That was the proceeding of a Whig Administration upon that occasion. Now, he did accuse the Government of extravagance; for from that N ear to the present they bad been increasing the expenditure. At that time there was very nearly 3.000,000/. over the expenditure. That had never been seen during the Administration of Honourable Gentlemen opposite [the Honourable Member was speak ing from the Opposition side of the House]; but, on the contrary, from that time every one of our institutions had been increasing in its extravagance. At that time the whole expenditure of the country was 49,000,0001. Last year it was 57,000,0001. And yet the Chancellor of the Exchequer considered this motion as a charge against the Government. It was a charge against them. He understood it as a charge against them, and upon that ground he would vote for it. Could it be said that an ordinary private man, when he found his daily expenditure growing from year to year beyond his means of payment, did not look to his income and ask himself what he could do to meet the expense absolutely neces sary for his concern ? Was this country in a position to go on as it had of late years? It would not do at that time to tell them that the Government had been ef fecting savings, as some of their simple friends had been suggesting; on the contrary, the country felt that day after day, and year after year, the expenditure of the country had been increasing, and with obviously no ne cessity for any such increase. He knew it had often been said that Europe was in a dangerous state, and that a large expenditure was necessary for the purpose of warding off danger, and that therefore we must retain an immense war establishment. Now, what rational ground was there for any such assertion? He would take upon himself to say that never since England was a kingdom had she been in such a situation of such perfect security as at the present moment. The main was to her a tower of strength, and even if any danger were to be apprehended fromithe hostility of Continental powers, their present distractions were to this country a source of additional security. It was, therefore, an idle pretence, a purely fantastic idea, to talk of the dangers by which they were surrounded, as a pretence for augmenting the public expenditure. 'What had this country to do with the causes of distraction which dis tut bed the continent? The business with which Parlia ment ought then to occupy itself was not foreign affairs, but the most effectual and judicious mode of cutting down the public expenditure. They had a very expen sive amusement in the nautical evolutions of the Gallant Admiral who had formerly made some evolutions in that House. What was the use of having that Gallant Ad miral with a large fleet wandering about the narrow seas and doing nothing, sometimes going to Lisbon and firing off a little gunpowder? The people of England were really behaving like persons who knew not how to take care of their money; according to the old phrase, as if it were " burning a hole in their pockets;" as if they had not a sufficient pauper population to take care of. Then thsre was Ireland. They were obliged to pay her from day to day, and this with not the slightest show of economy, nor any the least opposition on the part of Members of that House. Private individuals were ac customed to cut down their expenses within the limits of their incomes e but the House of Commons never thought of anything halt' so prudent. The army of this country was such as had never before been maintained during peace. He said nothing of the army of India, because it was maintained abroad; neither did he say anything of the army maintained in Canada. If England dealt honestly with her colonies she need not maintain any for their use. It representative governments were given to the wh le of i.ustralia from end to end, and given also to New Zealand—if they reformed their colonial govern ments—they might at once bring home their troops. As to Canada, if they could not keep it by the agency of a Parliament, they could not hope to maintain it by the force of an army. When this country was at war, it possessed an army and a navy sufficiently effective, and the expense of it was not great, unless when we thought proper to throw away money upon the Peninsula, and otherwise to waste treasure by subsidizing foreign powers. As he had before said, Indian warfare was not paid for by England; he should say nothing about the justice or the expediency of that, but should confine himself to asserting that it formed no draught upon the Exchequer of England. If a man were to pass the globe dl over he would find nothing but profound peace in all the British dominions; and if; in the midst of this perfect tranquillity, England were to pay 57,000,0001., what would be her condition if she really went to war ? The Right Honourable Member for Tam worth imposed upon the country the income-tax, and when he (Mr. Roebuck) asserted that it would be a permanent impost, he was sneeringly told that it would be merely temporary. The Right Honourable Baronet, with the plausible smile for which he was dis tinguished, repeated that it would very soon be re moved, and with the same smile, which seemed stereo typed on his countenance, he on a subsequent occasion said the tax would not be for ever. Would the present Chancellor of the Exchequer tell the House that the tax was a temporary impost? It was true the present Go vernment had tried to increase the tax. With the true feeling of a Chancellor of the Exchequer, he considered it the easiest mode of imposing taxes, and he (Mr. Roe buck) considered it one of the best modes of doing so. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer was afraid to per sist in that proposition, for he must have known that a large income-tax would be the surest way to stimulate the vigilance of the House of Commons, as it would touch them and their constituents. But he repeated his dispo tion to favour direct taxation rather than any other. Upon these grounds he must vote for the motion of the Hon. Member for Surrey, for it had become absolutely necessary to excite the vigilance of that House and to . rouse the Government, which lived on from day to day in constant terror of being out. voted. Nothing could be more untrue than that party was dead in that House. It was by accident he spoke from the place he now occu pied (on the Opposition side). The least trifle would l AA the party in two. The Protectionists at one end a o n f d the e agbench,tainvegw electricity. n e t r i r T c e ih m t ye bench a. N remainder of the leading Opposi tienists wh o sa t a t th e otheer,coh l were as distinct as positive opposed unlikeposedtoea th ch e boethnecrh behind tha i than those who sat could e above7h o le b w and House more: be low the t) g oppositeaemnd b to him was but as a nes t o f part i zans. Re really wished instead ut all this that there was something like a strong Go vernment established. For his part, he would willingly give up a popul ar f or a strong Government. He should gladly support a Government that had vigour enough to carry out its own right intentions ; but he could not give i his support to thos e paltry, h es it at i ng f ears, that feeling of shrinking from trouble, that self-deceit, w hi c h, lik e the wild ostrich in the bush, hid its head and thought it concealed its body. If he could force out such a Govern ment and force in a strong one, he would m ist willingly do so, and, therefore, he gave his cordial support to toe motion of the lion. Member for Surrey. Lord J. RUSSELL said those who at all consider the speech of my Hon. Friend the Member for Surrey must admit that he did not mean to bring any charge against the present Government, for my Hon. Friend had him self' said so most distinctly Then if there has been no charge .conveyed in the motion, and if it has not been accepted by my Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer as a charge against the Government—if those, also, who this evening debated the question were also agreed in not regarding it in the light of a censure, then I venture to think myself warranted in saying that no sort of censure has been intended. But nothing less would please the Hon. Member for Sheffield than to take the motion in a sense totally different from that which the Honourable Shover himself intended and plainly professed. That Honourable Gentleman would take it to be a censure, and insisted upon his right to take advantage of the opportunity which that motion gave him to speak of what he called the imbecility of the present Administration, and to express his earnest wish that a strong Government could be found. Now it would be difficult to imagine that the Houourable Member would regard anything as a strong Government unless it were to be an Administration consisting of himself and no one else ; for, of course, he could not support those who differed from him, and there was scarcely any one who agreed with him. The Honour able Gentleman maintains his own opinions honestly and independently, but I believe that there is not any set of Gentlemen in this House who agree with the Mem ber for Sheffield, so that he clearly could not be satisfied with any Government excepting one which should begin and end with himself. As to the motion of my Honour able Friend the Member for Surrey, though it is not a censure on the Government, it, nevertheless, is one to which I cannot give my assent. His resolution is in these words:—" That whereas a great amount of taxation is levied upon the people than is required for the good and efficient government of the United King dom; and whereas large sums are expended in support ing needless places, extravagant salaries, aud unneces sary works and establishments; and whereas the present taxation of the country depresses all classes, and espe cially the labouring classes, by diminishing the fund for the employment of productive labour, it is the opinion of this House that adequate means should be forthwith adopted to reduce the expenditure of the Government." My Hon. Friend has spoken in his resolution as hold ing the opinion that in the present session the policy and measures for which he contends ought to have been carried; and that, I apprehend, is not so much a censure on the present Government as it is a condemnation of the House itself. It condemns the manner in which the votes of this House have been given, and the way in which its proceedings have been conducted—for it asserts that after six months of deliberation the House has in the present session not performed its duty; and, again, after six months of deliberation, my Hon. Friend baying put off his motion until the present evening, now comes forward to say that 500 Members of this House who have voted upon the questions brought before them, and the greater part of whom are now out of town, have, during the whole of the session, been misapplying the powers with which their constituents intrusted them. It cannot tail to appear very extraor -1 dinary that my Hon. Friend should now bring forward , this accusation against the whole House, nor only when a very large proportion of them, pribably 500 Members, but also at a time when some of the ablest debaters in 11 Parliament, were absent. Are we not, then, driven to ) 1 the conclusion that he takes advantage of the thinness t of the House at the end of the session to:bring forward a motion which he could not hope to propose with equal success at any other period of the year ? It is at this time and under these circumstances that he brings his motion before the House. Assuming, then, for a mo ment that my Hon. Friend could carry his resolution, I cannot suppose that such a decision could come before the country with any weight, seeing that at best it would only express the sense of a very small number of the Members of this House. But even in the existing con dition of the House the motion, in its present state, is hardly one which we could adopt ; nevertheless, it is one which the Hon. Member for Sheffield says he will sup port, though he seems to justify his vote upon rather ex traordinary grounds. He says that Sir H. Parnell moved a resolution in 1830 which Lord Althorp, in 1831, did not practically carry out. Now, supposing the state ments of the lion. Member for Sheffield to have been well founded with respect to both, I do not see how that ought to induce the House to come to a vote of censure on the present Government. The fact is, however, that the points to which the Hon. Member for bheffisld re ferred were not argued in 1830 and 1831, as he repre sented them to have been. The leading Whigs of that period, Lord Brougham and others, objected to cortasn expenses being included in the evil list, which in all previous times had formed part of that branch of the public expenditure. They objected to apparent addi tions being made to the household and personal expenses of the Sovereign which properly did not belong either to the one or the other. They argued the question on two grounds—one was that all charges on the civil list should, according to the previous arrangement, expire with the life of the Sovereign—the other was that means should be taken to do away with the influence of the unfounded assertion that 900,0031., to which the charges on the civil list amounted, was a sum which the actual expenses of the Crown required—whereas the personal expenses of the Sovereign and the dignity of the Crown could be and were maintained at less than half that amount of expenditure. That was the light in which the subject had been regarded by the Whigs of that period, and the House of Commons engaging in an inquiry on that subject, referred the question to a Select Committee, with power to send for persons, papers, and records. Upon the appointment of that Com mittee the Wellington Administration resigned their offices. But, even on the Hon. Member for Sheffield's own showing, there is no reason why the present vote should be agreed to by the House, and there certainly is less reason for it when the history of those transactions comes to be explained. Accordingly, the civil list was, at the period to which I have been referring, so settled as that during the reign of William IV. the amount was considerably less than in the preceding reign. At the commencement of the present reign it was still further reduced, and therefore the events connected with the accession of the Whigs to power and the resignation of their predecessors, in 1830, ought not to induce the House to assent to the motion of my Hon. Friend the Member for Surrey. As to the grounds that have been laid for that motion, I cannot agree to the doctrine put forward by my Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose, who repeats what he has so often before stated as his settled conviction, that if the gross amount of the taxes be not lowered the people of this country can have ex perienced no relief. [That was, said Mr. HuaxE, not precisely the statement that he had made. He said that relief had not been given to the people by lowering the whole amount of taxes that they paid.] But if there were any value in that argument it was this, that taking off taxes did not give the people any relief. It has never been maintained by us, that taking off taxes eventually diminished the gross amount of taxation to an equal amount; but I hope the House will do us the justice to remember that we did not merely change taxes,—that is, not all that has been done, for every one must recol lect that Parliament took off more taxes than were im posed; and further, there were other cases,—there were cases of total abolition. Surely it will not be said that by such measures the people were not relieved, even though the revenue might still remain at the same amount. Now I cannot help reminding Hon. Members of some of the changes that have been effected. On salt there has been a reduction to the amount of 3,000,000/. It once bore a price of 15s. a bushel, and I now learn from a person very largely engaged in that trade, that he can now purchase it for 6d. a bushel instead of 15s. This is taking off duty to the amount of 3,000 per cent. If, then, when 3,000,0001. were taken off, the revenue in • a short time rose to its original height, it was not owing to the unaltered state of the taxation, but in consequence of the riches of the country. The people had been re relieved to a great extent, but in a short time the gross revenue regained its previous position. The tax on sugar has also been reduced from 3d. a pound to lid. The poor man can now have it for elide; surely that is a relief, and if, notwithstanding that he paid 4id., the wealth of the country still continues to be such that the whole revenue remains of the same amount as before, that fact surely affords no proof that the people had not at that time been relieved, or that their burdens still re mained equal to what they had previously been. I can not understand how the Hon. Member goes on repeat• ing that the taxes are just the same as before merely because the total amount of the revenue remained un changed. On the contrary, I do believe that the largest amount of taxation which the country has paid is but a proof of its riches and prosperity—that it was better off than before ; and there can be no doubt that the Ame rican and the French wars which added so largely to our public debt, have but afforded proofs of the great resources of the country ever since peace has been re established. The taxes on salt, the taxes on candles, the taxes on leather, the taxes on coals carried coastwise, have been removed. There has been a diminution of the taxes on sugar and beer—all these are matters which the poor man consumes, and which paid heavy duties before we undertook those unfortunate and mistaken wars with America and France. But, Sir, having taken off those taxes, and having taken them off consistently with maintaining a considerable military establishment, some say much too large a military establishment, and consistently with the credit of the country, the /lon. Member for Surrey asks us to adopt same scheme by which we may be relieved from what he rightly considers the great burden of the country, viz., the sum of upwards of 28,000,0001. annually which we pay as the interest of our national debt. Now I own, that while I think the wars I have mentioned were unnecessary, while I think we never ought to have entered into a war with our people in America—(Hear)—and while I think it was quite unnecessary to go to war with the French when they established a republic—and that prudent con duct would have saved us from those wars,—l say the nation is now bound by faith and by a regard to policy, if not to honesty, to pay the interest of the debt it. has incurred.—(clear, hear.) Well, if that ue the case, I own I do not believe there is any contrivance—any sort of hocus pocus—by which, if you are to pay the interest of the debt, and to be liable to that debt, you can get rid of the burden of it. Any scheme to raise an amount of taxation to pay off that debt would either produce such an immense amount of taxation as the country would not tolerate, or after two or three shifts you would find you had exactly the same burden to bear as was the case before. There is only one way of dealing with this debt, and that is regularly to pay the interest of it.— (dear, hear.) If you have a surplus employ that sur plus to a moderate amount, if you please, in paying off some of your debt; but I believe, with the Hon. Member for Dumfries, that we made a useful change when we abolished the sinking fund, whiols would never have materially diminished the capital of xeir debt, in order to enable us to take off taxes by the removal of which the country has become much richer, and is much better able to bear the interest of the debt than if those taxes had been retained. But, admitting that the debt must remain, and that there is no ingenious contrivance by which we can get rid of the burden, it we maintain the public faith, we are told by the Hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck), that the army is a great deal too large, and that it ought to be consider ably reduced. I must say with respect to the army maintained in the United Kingdom and its colonies, that we have this year reduced it by no less than 10,000 men. I certainly consider that such a reduction made in one year is a very considerable reduction.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Sheffield has said—following others who frequently made the same assertion, though I never heard anything advanced in proof of it—that if we did but govern our colonies well, and give them re presentative institutions, we should have no need of our army. Why, these Hon. Gentlemen suppose that our army is maintained for the purpose of keeping down the people of the colonies. Then, why not reduce the number of troops at Portsmouth and Plymouth? But we do not keep troops at Portsmouth and Plymouth because the people of those towns are disaffected, and we wish to re strain them by military force. We keep troops at Ports mouth and Plymouth to defend those places, because we consider their defence to be essential to the safety of the country; and on the same ground we have troops in Bermuda and other possessions, to defend those colo nies. In some instances, no doubt, when there are dis sensions in our colonies, those dissensions might break out into disturbance, and the troops are of use for main taining the peace in case of any such disturbances. The Hon. Member for Sheffield has said that if we gave re presentative institutions to the colonies we might dimi nish our army; but it is remarkable that the Governor of New Zealand entertains the opinion that with repre sentative institutions there would be much more danger of disturbances among the natives of that colony than there is at the present time. I have always maintained that we ought, as far as possible, to establish represen tative institutions in our colonies, and the only question is with regard to particular colonies, whether they can or cannot bear representative institutions. Now, with regard to the question of salaries and offices, if a resolu tion were submitted to the House lik that which my Noble Friend the Member for Middlesex has proposed, which only implies that salaries ought to be reduced, and that offices ought to be abolished whenever there is reason for taking such a course, I think— the Government being disposed to act upon that principle—that I could have no objection to the House affirming such a principle. But I conceive that we are not at all liable to the charge of wishing to keep up offices when they are unnecessary. I do not think any proposal was ever made in this House to reduce the number of the Commissioners of Stamps and Taxes and of the Excise; and yet the appointment of those Com missioners was, in the way of patronage, about the most desirable patronage any Minister could possess.—(Hear, hear.) Now what have we done? We had no pressure upon that subject; but we reduced the number of Cora -1 missioners of Stamps and Taxes and Excise from twelve ' to seven, abolishing five Commissioners, and of course parting with a great deal of patronage which belonged especially to the First Lord of the Treasury.—(Hear, hear.) That, I say, is some proof that we are not in- I disposed to measures of economy and reduction. Then I with regard to Masters in Chancery, last year one of • those offices became vacant. I asked the Lord Chan- I cellor whether it was necessary that it should be filled up. t He said it was not necessary. No motion was made in , this House on the subject, but we abolished that L Mastership in Chancery, and I thereby parted with the patronage of the appointment. So with respect to several offices in the Treasury for the transaction of business connected with payments, in cases with which my Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is acquainted, we introduced regulations by which those offices have been abolished as they fell vacant, or have been united with other offices in the Treasury. I say, then, that I can have no objection to any general reso lution with respect to these offices. The Hon. Member for Montrose has said that our expenses have been in creasing. It is certainly true, with regard to the year 1847 and the beginning of 1848, that there was an in crease of expenditure; but the great increase of expense was in the estimates of 1845. which were very fully explained to this House, and which the House affirmed. It was explained to the House that an increase was proposed in the navy for the purpose of defence, and the House—l think without any opposition—affirmed the necessity of that increase. —(Hear, hear.) I believe there was nothing beyond a very insignificant opposition to that proposal. At present there is a contrary dispo sition, and the House of Commons now calls upon the Government to make reductions in the estimates. Well, at the end of last session, and in the course of the present session, we have made very considerable reductions. The reductions stated in the budget of 1848-49 were 828,0001. In the estimates of 1849-50 the reductions were to the amount of 1,511,4551., and there hes been a further reduction in the Ordnance estimates, making a total of 2,361,8241—(Hear.) But, while we have been making these reductions, we are constantly told that we are always increasing our expenditure. It is said, almost every night, " You may require as many troops as you have had, but why should you be constantly in creasing them?" My answer is that we are not increasing, but in the progress of reducing the number; and I therefore consider that it would not be wise, on the part of this House, to come to a general resolution, which is proposed, not as a vote of censure upon the Go vernment, but which would be a vote of censure passed by the Members present upon the Members absent.— (" Hear, hear," and laughter.) I own that in that view I do not thinkit would be eitheravery wise or a very fair course of proceeding. I think we should rather adopt some resolution which would convey the general sense of the House when the House is full, and that, with re gard to the carrying out of such a resolution, we should reserve our decision until further estimates are laid be- fore us. The Right Honourable Member for Manchester has told us that the people say, " You tell us you are making great reductions, but how is taxation lessened?" That Right Hon. Gentleman might reply, "If you go to the market you will find that prices are reduced in 1849 very much below what they were in 1841, and this reduction is owing in many instances to the abolition or reduction of duties either under the Government of the Right Honourable Member for Tamworth, or under that of the present Ministry." I trust that if the House comes to any resolution they will rather adopt the mo tion of the Noble Member for Middlesex, for I think it would be unwise to pass a resolution in such sweeping terms as that of the Hon. Member for Surrey, which can not lead to any practical result.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. SPOONER thought the Noble Lord ought to meet the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Surrey with a direct negative, but the Noble Lord, in stead of taking that course, had advised the House to veryHon.Fr iend industrysaidofthattaxationpressed Middlesex. heavily His u country, and in that statement he (Mr. Spooner) fully concurred. He did net agree, however, in the reasons which had been assigned by some Hon. Gentlemen for that pressure, for he believed it was occasioned by the system of free trade. They had taken off the Customs' duties which pressed upon the foreigner, and had im posed duties upon their own native industry.—(Hear, hear.) He considered that they ought to place a tax upon every foreign article imported equivalent to the taxation borne by the producers of this country, The only persons who had benefited from the recent com mercial policy of the Government were those who had fixed salaries and incomes, while they had inflicted upon the productive and industrious classes a serious and cruel injustice. He would support the proposition of his Hon. Friend the Member for Surrey, and he called upon the House to reject the amendment, which was a complete evasion of the question. Mr. CHRISTOPHER wished to explain the grounds on which he intended to vote for the motion of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Drummond). The Chancellor of the Ex chequer had stated, in reply to the arguments of that Hon. Gentlemen on the subject of salaries, that official salaries were in the aggregate less now than they were at the end of the American war; but he (Mr. Christo pher) wished to know whether, with reference to the prices of articles of consumption, these salaries were not much higher now than they were ten years ago.— (Hear, hear.) Considering that the policy of the last end the present Governments had been to make all articles of consumption cheap and money dear, it did not require any long argument to prove that persons re ceiving official salaries were benefited by those changes. —(Hear, hear.) That was a sufficient reason for the House to interfere and to reduce their salaries in accor dance with the existing state of things in the country. The amendment proposed evaded the question altogether. It asked the Government to exercise a supervision over the expenditure ; but as the Government professed to do so already any resolution of that kind was not wanted. What was required was for the House to come to a re solution that under the altered circumstances of the country, brought on by recent legislation, it would not sanction the same salaries as were given during a dif ferent state of things, and public opinion was so strong on this point that, if Government did not come forward with a proposition of the kind, either in the present or next session, still it would be utterly impossible for Parliament to oppose a very material reduction. Mr. HAWES wished to correct a statement made by the Hon. Member for Surrey. He understood the Hon. Member to state that certain reductions were proposed by the Governor of Trinidad which the Noble Lord at the head of the colonial department refused to sanction. The Hon. Member was in error, for no reductions had been proposed by the Governor of Trinidad which did not meet in principle, thought n regard to the extent (as we understood) there might be some question, with the sanction of the Noble Earl; and he could assure the Hon. Member that, as far as the Noble Earl was con cerned, whenever well-considered reductions were pro posed, they would not meet with opposition. Mr. BANKES expressed his surprise that the Noble Lord the Member for Middlesex should have brought forward his amendment without giving notice of it. Hay ing heard the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he undoubtedly understood that the Government meant to offer no opposition to the motion; and having been absent from the House for some short space of time, he was astonished on his return to find all amendment moved by the Noble Lord the Member for Middlesex. That amendment gave an opportunity to Hon. Members of slipping through the question; but as he was not prepared for any evasion of the question, he should give his vote for the original motion. The time had come, he thought, when Parliament was called on to give an aye or no decision on the question whether, under the exist ing circumstances of the country, a searching inquiry snd economy with respect to these matters was not re• quired. He should be heartily sorry if the Government had no serious objection to the motion, that they should at the present moment endeavour to get rid of it by a side wind, for such was the character of the present amendment.—(Hear.) Mr. H. DRUMMOND, in reply, observed that there was no intention on his part to misrepresent the conduct of Lord Grey, but he thought that what had fallen from the Under-Secretary for the Colonies made more strongly for his argument.—(Hear, hear.) It was unjust of the Noble Lord at the head of the Government to say that he had taken advantage of the absence of Members to bring forward the question, for the fact was that he had urged the matter on the attention of the House last session, and twice during the present. With regard to the national debt it had been said that that was an advan tage to the public, though, if the same rule were to apply to the nation as to individuals, it would not be so consi dered, for it was always thought to be an advantage te . gentlemen having mortgages on their estates to pay them off. In conclusion, he declared that he did not bring the motion forward as a censure on the Government, and he believed that no :gentleman on either side of the House, with one exception, thought it had that tendency, either directly or indirectly. The House then divided, when there appeared— For the motion 71 For the amendment... ... 65 Majority for the motion ... 3 The announcement of the numbers was received with cheers. GRAND JURIES (IRELAND). Sir W. SOMERVILLE, in moving for leave to bring in a Bill to make better provision for the administration of fiscal affairs in counties, counties of cities, and coun ties of towns in Ireland, said that lie did not propose at that late period of the session to proceed with the Bill, but merely to introduce it, so that it might be printed and its various provisions considered during the recess. The object of the Bill was to do away with the grand juries in Ireland, as the Board which he wished to have established by this Bill would be more capable of at tending administration of counties, counties of cities, and counties of towns in Ireland, than the grand juries had hitherto done, and this he felt fully assured would con tribute very much to the interest of the Irish labourer. He, therefore, proposed to introduce this Bill. Mr. MONSELL said that he felt glad that the system of anomolous taxation that hitherto prevailed in Ireland would be put an end to by this Bill, and hoped that the grand jury-rates and the poor-rate would be collected by the same officers, as such a system would greatly reduce the expenditure on the poor of that country. Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that he hoped that the opinion of the Committee would be attended to next session on that point, and was happy to find that this Bill was agreeable to all the Irish Members. He then proposed a Bill for the prevention of Accidents and Dangers to Passengers upon Public Roads and Highways in Ireland, and for the Punishment of Offences relating thereto. The Bill was then read a first time. He then brought on the following Bill for promoting the Public Health in Ireland, which was read a first time. He was happy to say that there was springing up in Ireland a desire for the promotion of such measures as seemed calculated to augment and ensure sanitary regulations. He was anxious to draw the attention of the House to what had been done in Dublin on this subject. The , complaints against public nuisances in the past year were 7,105, and owing to the labours of Sir Edward Burrows and ,the Sanitary Commission, the improvements which had been effected were of the most valuable kind. The SUbject was one of the most vital importance, and r t trusted Ir e land; and espe cially to the poorer classes in , that the Bill which he now asked the leave of the House of favourable • to introduce would meet with that deg ree t attention to which it was entitled.. great satisfaction the Me. MONSELL had heard with sent i me nt now expres sed Hon. Baronet; but by the Right • but ho must say , tha t so long as the public gaols in Ire . t land were left in the unwholesome state in t are a t present, by reason of over-crowding of transports, and against which he had often, in the course of the present session, complained, he thought that the measure proposed would fall short of its proposed effect, Another point which he was desirous to direct attention to was intramural burials, which ought, as affecting the public health, to be done away with. A third point was, the recesssity of a measure for the registration of births, deaths, and marriages in Ireland, Sir WILLIAM SOMERVILLE said ho had pre pared a Bill on the subject of the state of the gaols in ' Ireland, which he hoped to be able to introduce early in the next session. With regard to the question of in tramural burials, ho considered it of very great import ance, and intended to pay due attention to it; and the question of births, deaths, and marriages should receive consideration. The Bill, after a few words from Sir D. NORREYS and Mr. MoNsELL, was read a first time. In the al)sence of Mr. Hume, Mr. BRIGHT moved for " Accounts of the number of individual depositors and of charitable institutions, and friendly societies depositing their funds in Savings Banks, and of the sums deposited, divided into the usual classes, on the 20th day of November, 1847, and on the 20th thy of Novemb r, 1848,&c. &c." ORANGE PROCESSIONS. Mr. MOORE wished to draw the attention of the House, and he hoped of the Government, to transactions which took place in the north of Ireland on the 12th of July, and which proved most dangerous to the peace, and in some cases fatal to the lives of her Majesty's sub jects. He regretted that the Ac: fur putting down those proct ssions was not renewed, on its expiration in 1845; but he did not, on that point, blame her Majesty's Go vernment for not having brought forward a measure, for he believed that they relied on the good feelings of the gentlemen of the north of Ireland, after a calamitous famine of three years, not to sanction those processions. I .i It might well be h o p e d, t h at i n the midst of such twos, t was not possibl e th at t h e people of the north would stir up religious feelings; but they little knew the heart, the souls, and the brains of the Orangemen of the north of Ireland, who thirsted for the moloch of sanguinary bigotry on the 12th of July, and it was not surp r i s i ng t h at on that day, they were assembled in more than ordinary triumph. It was easy to understand why such a moment was seized upon; but the hearts of the people were dead within them. It was easy to understand the object of such bigoted blockheads, whose proceedings led to the loss of life, of which he now complained. In the neighb our .. hood of Castlew e ll an , t h ere was a passage known by the name of "Dolly Bray," which appeared to be a bone of contention between the rival factions. This spot seems to have been invested w i t h a traditional import ance, and for the Orange party to ; ass over "Dolly Bray" was a challenge to the opposite faction. Fer some years the pass was not attempted, and last year it was formally discussed whether it should be attempted or not; but this year it was supposed that one year more of calamity would give the Catholic , no advantage, and it was resolved, not merely by the ordinary Orangemen • but by men of education and position, and even by magistrates, that the passage should be tried, and that large bodies of men should be brought forward, pre pared for collision. But they went one step further, and brought large bodies of police with them. There were, too, on the ground, one company of the 9th foot, one troop of the 13th Light Dragoons, one troop of the Enniskillen Dragoons, and a large body of armed con stabulary ; and those men, it would appear, were dispatched by her Majesty's Government, not for the purpose of interfering and preventing col lision, but of looking on. They had it, on the authority of Major Wilkinson, that the Orangemen were " armed to the teeth," and that they were allowed to pass by the magistrates without any order to the troops to prevent them. The party proceeded, firing shots, to Tullamore Park, the seat of Lord Roden, who regaled them, and certainly addressed them in language that could not be complained of; but weak men, like Lord Roden, were so metimes most dangerous to society; and vicious men did not fail to do wrong under their apparent countenance. Lord Roden met five or six thousand men, and presented himself to th em d resse d out in the full insignia of his order. He repeated, that the address of the Noble Lord was in every respect of a nature to dis arm the vicious; but fire or six thousand fanatics were not to be reasoned with. A conflict took place, life was lost; and he understood that Lord Rotten excused himself from attending the coroner's inquest on the plea of ill health. Ile (Mr. Moore) was willing to believe that such was the case; but he hoped that Lord Roden would not, in future, sanction processions, the result of which must add sorrow to his grey hairs.—(Hear.) The officer who commanded the party stated that he had no doubt what ever a collision would take place, and that he b-lieved the first shot was fired by an Orangeman. The firing then became general, and as to her Majesty's forces, they contented themselves with looking on, for, indeed, they had no choice except to fire at both parties, or de sist altogether. They adopted the latter; but not so the police, who immediately joined the Orangemen and took part with them in firing on what was termed the rebels, and afterwards in pursuit. They shot down and beat out the brains of a great number of the peasantry, took upwards of 30 prisoners, who were brought before the magistrates who commanded the police, and the evidence of those police taken, instead of having them handcuffed and sent to gaol with those in custody. Not content with even that, they burned several houses, and in one case were nearly murdering a child and an old woman. The Hon. Member then read a passage from the Dublin Evening Mail, giving the details of this most horrible transaction. Ile (Mr. Moore) thought the case most deplorable in its details, considering the part taken by the highest and the lowest actors, and certainly it was hard to say who among them was to blame. If an in quiry were to be instituted into the transaction, it should be ascertained who it was that planned a circui tous route on a bad road through ,Dolly Bray. What were the representations which induced the Government to send a large military and police force; and, above all, the conduct of the magistracy? and what their know ledge was of what was about to take place? The Hon. Gentleman then concluded by moving fur the production of the correspondence which had taken place on the subject. Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that, if he did not go into a lengthened detail of what had occurred, he hoped it would not for a moment be considered that he did not feel the deepest regret at what had taken place. The Hon. Gentleman ought to recollect that, in the begin ning of the present yoar, certain occurrences happened, at a place called Cressgar, near Dolly Bray, which made the Government watchful, and into which he did not then choose to enter. With regard to the procession which had taken place, it was hoped that the state of the public mind, and a more kindly feeling of one towards the other of both parties, would have prevented the necessity of introducing an Act of Parliament on the subject, but unfortunately they were disappointed. All he should now say, however, was, that the strictest in quiry would take place into everything which occurred, both as regarded the military, police, and all parties con cerned. Captain JONES deeply regretted what had happened, and reminded the House that, when the Act expired, he implored the Government to bring forward another such measure to prevent all processions. With regard to what had been said about Lord Roden, inviting the Orangemen to Tullamore Park, he had seen a letter from his Lordship, denting the assertion in the most positive terms. Mr. BRIGHT denounced it as one of the most taro cions and abominable acts which ever occurred in Ire land ; and as to what had been said in vindication of Lord Roden, he believed the Noble Lord would not escape from the matter as innocently as he expected.— (Hear, hear.) For his own part, he could not under. stand why a nobleman should regale a parcel of people in his park unless they were invited. He believed the Government were actuated by the best of motives in not renewing the Processions Act, but surely the Govern ment had the power of preventing the meeting of thou sands of armed persons, instead of which they sent an armed force, who actually accompanied the Orangemen in their march. They walked with the Orange proces sion, with the police, and in point of fact, regarded tha Catholics as enemies and the Protestants as friends. That was the history of Ireland in a few words, and he would tell the Right Hon. Gentleman that if the to matter were not rigidly inquired into, it would do much _ vent that union and goodwill a mon g all classes which seen was so much desired. If atbe t c h t nwaemr of Lo Roden them in the papers, he thoug h t no t be allowed to remain a singl e moment on the mmission of the peace. " Sir NORREYS condemned the proceedings, and avowed his opinion that no peace could be expected in Ireland until the law was obeyed because it was the law, and not at the bidding of any individuals whatever. Major BLACKALL concurred with the observation made by the lion. Member for Manchester, that armed parties should be dispersed; but as to what had been said respecting the military the Hon. Member should recollect that they were under the orders of the magistrates, and should obey them. Mr. F. MAULE admitted that a most melancholy oc currence had taken place, which required the strictest inquiry, and he would implore of the Hon. Member to forbear from further comment on the question until that had taken place. With regard to what had been said of the military—they must recollect that they were under the orders of the magistrates, and as to the army gene rally, they had received the marks of approbation of all parties for their conduct on a late occasion in Ireland; when it was proved by their forbearance that they were the best friends of th© people against whom they were sent. Mr. MONSELL hoped that before the present session o f Parliament was over a Party Processions Act would be introduced, to put an end to those deplorable processions. —(Hear, hear.) He implored the Government to do that, the more, when he found the coroner at the in quest stating that these processions were legal, and th at the Government of the country countenanced trdbey sending an armed force for their pro tection. . nounced the conduct of the mag istrates in allowing armed men to march through the co untry as they ' had done in this instance. Mr. LABOUCHERE observed that inasmuch as a most rigid inquiry was to be instituted, he did not think it would be politic to accede, to the request made by the Hon. Gentleman who last addressed the House, to intr4,- duce a Bill this session to put down party prc e say,h s ions.te that ti The most anxious attention of liehap py t o had w d ur i n g his brief stay in Irela n d, t h e principal men dis couraged, by every means in their power, such scenes as those they were now lamenting. He deeply regretted what had taken place, and hoped that the House would not continue the inquiry, as the Government had insti tuted a searching inquiry, and it would not be right for the House to express an opinion until that inquiry was concluded. Mr. REYNOLD S said he had listened to this debate with the deepest attention. He believed that the author of these murders was Lord Roden. His fifteen hundred men had spent their bloody anniversary in huzzas and drinking and triumphing, and, being armed to the teeth, murdered men, women, and children; and, not content with that, actually robbed thepoor people. Now, Colonel Verner and other magistrates had been dismissed by Lord NorinAnby for MD proposing on the 12th of July, S t '~.. ~ :.- : • ithe toast of th e " B a ttl e o f th e Die m k ; " and, under • : 4 , - . ) the circumst ances o f thi s case shoul ;Tito 'pal more '.," ° tenderly with L , rd Roder.? fie inten eji nikaiploaday. ._ _ ..:. .1 to ask th e G overnment w h ether the istlrisl Ild; • "...,' '.., linquents any longer retained the co ' s ol . of t)se- - .) peace? ''l,-- I l•--> Mr. NICHOLL hoped that the House rotarl-trai - pfg: judge any i n di v id ual. If the Gover nmenlif&rto; de ‘V.I their duty, it would be their duty in an ensuing seasion to inquire how that failure of justice had occurred. Atter a few words from Captain ARCHDALL, Mr. MOORE withdrew his motion. SALE OF BREAD. Mr. BANKES moved the second reading of a Bill for preventing frauds in the sale of bread. The Hon. Member expressed his hope that Government would net oppose the Bill. Mr. LABOUCHERE opposed the further progress of the Bill. The present law provided that the baker should keep weights and weigh out the bread to the pur chaser. The Hon. Nlember proposed that the bread should be weighed out of the oven and stamped accord ingly. He (Mr. Labouchcre), feeling that the alteration would greatly embarrass trade and place respectable tradesmen at the mercy of informers, felt bound, however reluctantly, to move that the Bill be read a second time tha' day sax months. Sfr C. BURRELL supported the Bill. Captain PECHELL opposed the Bill as calculated to interfere vexatiously with small tradesmen throughout the country. Lord D. STUART and Mr. MANGLES took 3 similar view of the question. The gallery was cleared for a division, but none took place, the motion having been negatived, and the Bill thrown out. _ The Dublin Improvement Bill passed through Com mittee, and the House adjourned at One o'clock. PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS. (From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Conimofs&J THURSDAY, JULY 19. TAXATION. Motion made and Question proposed, " That whereas a greater amount of Taxation is levied upon the people than is required for the g o o d an d efficient government of the United Kingdom ; and whereas large sums are expended in support ing needless places, extravagant salaries, and unnecessary works and establishments; and whereas the present taxation of the country depresses all classes, and especially the labour ing classes, by diminishing the fund for the employment of productive labour, it is the opinion of this House, that ade quate means should be forthwith adopted to reduce the ex penditure of the Government" Amendment proposed, to leave out from the w or d s " Th at w h ereas " to the end of the Question, in order to add the words " no greater amount of taxation ought to be levied than is sufficient for the good and efficient government of the empire; and whereas it is expedient that a searching inquiry should take place, whether some places may not have become useless, whether some salaries are not too large, and whether some works and establishments may not be unnecessary, it is the opinion of this House that a vigilant superintendence should be exer cised over the expenditure of the country in all its depart ments, in order that every reduction may be made therein which can be effected without detriment to the public service," instead thereof:—Question put, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the question." The House divided ; MAJORITY-AYES, 71. Gooch, E. S. PeChell, Captain Gwyn, Bowel Perfect, Robert Mastic, Alexander Pigott, Francis Heathcoat, John Pilkington, James Henley, J. W. Portal, M elville Henry, Alexander Rendlesham, Lord Heyworth, L. Roebuck, J. A. Ilindley, Charles Raiford, Francis Hodgson, W. N. Rushout, Captain Hollond, Robert Salwey, Colonel Hood, Sir lexander Scholefleld, William Borsman, Edward Smith, J. B. Jolliffe, Sir W. H. Spooner, Richard Kershaw, James Stuart, Lord D. Lennard, T. B. Thompson, Colonel Locke, Joseph Thompson, George Lockhart, A.E. Tollemaehe, John Meagher, Thomas Walmsley, Sir I. Moore, G. H. Wawn, J. T. Mowatt, Francis Wood, W. P. Noel, Gerald J. Wyld, James Nugent, Sir Percy O'Connor, Feargus Osborne, Ralph Pearson, Charles Alcoa, Thomas Bankes, G. Bass, M. T. Blake, M. J. Blewitt, It. J. Bouverie, E. P. Bright, John Brocklehurst, John Burrell, Sir C. Chaplin, W. J. Christopher, R. Cobden, IL Coles, Henry B. Dick, Quintin Dickson, Samuel Duncan, George Du Pre, C. G. Ewart, Fagan, William Fergus, John Fordyce, A. D. Fox, W. J. Frewen, C. 11. Fuller, A. E. Gibson, T. 31. Abdy, T. N. Acland, Sir T. Adair, It. Shafto Armstrong, Sir A. Armstrong, it. B. Raines, M. T. Baring, Sir F. Bellew, R. M. Birch, Sir Thomas Brotherton, J. Brown, W. Campbell, W. F. Clerk Sir George Cowper, W. F. Cubitt, William Dundas, Admiral Eorington, Lord Ellice, Edward Elliot, John E. Evans, John TELLIES. Dremrnond, Henry Hume, Joseph MINORITY-NOES, 68. Fox, R. M. Parker, John Freestun, Colonel Plowden, W. H. Glyn, G. C. Power, Dr. Grey, Ralph W. Pryse, Pryse Grosvenor, Lord R. Raphael, Alexander Hallyburton, Lord Reynolds, John Harris, Richard Romilly, Sir John Hawes, Benjamin Rumbold, C. E. Ilay,lLord John Russell, Lord J. llobhouse, Sir John Rutherfurd, A. Ilobhouse, T. B. Sheil, It. L. Howard, Lord E. Smith, J. A. Jervis, Sir John Somerville. Sir W. Keppel, George„T. Stanton, W. H. Labouchere, lienry Thornely, T. Lascelles, W. S. Tufnell. 11. Lewis, G. C. Turner, George 31•Cullagh , W. T. Villiers, Visconti. Mangles, R. D. Wood, Sir Charles 31 aide, Fox WyTill, Marmaduke Morison, Sir W. Nichol', J. Paget, Lord A. Palmerston, Vis. Ferguson, Sir R. Filmer, Sir E. Fitzpatrick, J W. Forster, Mathew TELLEILS. Hill, Lord Marcus Rich, Henry COURT CIRCULAR. OSBORNE, THURSDAY. Her Majesty and his Royal Highness walked this morning early, in Osborne Park. His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, the Princess Royal, and, younger members of the Royal Family walked and rode as usual. The Queen held a Privy Council yesterday, at one o'clock, which was attended by his Royal Highness Prince Albert, the Marquis of Lansdowne, Sir George Grey, Viscount Palmerston, Earl Grey, Sir Francis Baring, Lord Campbell, the Marquis of Clanricarde, and Earl Fortescue. The Lion. William Bathurst officiated as Clerk of the Council. His Excellency M. Drouyn de Lhuys, Ambassador from the French Republic, was introduced to her Ma jesty by Viscount Palmerston, and had the honour of presenting his credentials. After the Council the above noble personages partook of a luncheon, and then returned to London. with the exception of the Marquis of Lansdowne, and Sir George Grey, 'who were honoured by an invitation to remain at Osborne. There was no other addition to the usual dinner party. Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Gloucester visited their Royal Highnesses the Duke and Duchess of Cam bridge yesterday, at Cambridge House. Their Royal Highnesses the Hereditary Grand Duke and Grand Duchess of Mecklenburg Strelitz honoured the performance at her Majesty's Theatre with their presence yesterday evening. Count Reventlow, the Danish Minister, had an inter view with Earl Grey yesterday, at the Colonial-office. Mr. Lane and Mr. Bogle Smith had an interview with the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday. Mr. John Wood, Chairman of the Board of Inland Revenue, and Mr. Pressly had also an interview with t h e Right lion. Baronet, at his official residence in Downing-street. A deputation of noblemen and gentlemen, representing the principal railway companies, had an interview yes terday with Lord John Russell, at his official residence, in Downing-street, respecting the Audit of Railway Accounts Bill. The Noble Lord was accompanied by the Right Hon. Henry Labouchere, President of the Board of Trade; and by the Right Hon. Sir Edward Ryan, one of the Commissioners of Railways. The deputation was headed by the Earl of Lonsdale, and included Mr. George Carr Glynn, Mr. Charles Russell, Mr. Chaplin, the Earl of Powis, Viscount Villiers, Mr. Lacy, Colonel Reid, and Mr. Saunders. The Commission to Inquire into the Application of Iron to Railway Structures, accompanied by Mr. Hood, Engineer to the Brighton line; Mr. Crewe, Locomotive Superintendent, and the Astronomer Royal, proceeded on Wednesday to make experiments on the Ewell Bridge, on the Epsom and Croydon line. The Marquis of Lansdowne returned to town yester day, fr, m a visit to her Majesty at Osborne. Sir James Stephen had an interview with Lord John Russell yesterday. Sir Thomas Fri - mantle, Chairman of the Customs, had an interview with the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday. Sir George Grey arrived in town yesterday from the Queen's marine residence, Osborne, Isle of Wight. Dispatches were :tent off yesterday evening, from the Colonial-Office, for the Governors of Hong-Kong and Ceylon. THE WEATHER.-Some may think it absurd to occupy five lines in stating that the weather has we b e e,en ; fine or wet, as the case may be, during the p ig e _ seeing fact. And perhaps 1 ins - that most of those who read a country newer,. ! are already familiar with the . is no knowing how general way, it is absurd ; but there _ far a country paper may t he protracted may even yet be languishing prienced durin g the last two travel, drought whieh we have experienced by learning that the months, may be greatly re yesterday in this ne treaders, who ighbour• rain fell for several hourssuc h y and distan t a r t an a shower can scarcely be eati. hood. The Tahiti of on _ field were parched up, and both garden d mated- th er e was danger that t he ir fruits would be impaired by drought : but perhaps the most imp or t an t the continued . washing which n is the thorough i beck hth cons id e red() and revers would get-iu this (sanitary p o i n t o f v i ew the rain trills t be regarded as a n i nest i ma b le boon Brat ford Journal. WEATHER PREDICTIONS. -11r, James Clayton has furnished us with the following short weather table for the borough of Bradford:-July -Monday, 16th, fair; 17th, slight showers; 18th, rain; 19th, slight showers; 20th, 21st, 22d, 23d, fair; 24th, 25th, alight showers; 26th, 27th, fair; 28th, 29th, fair, but dull; 30th, rain; 31,t, rain, with thunder. August-Wednesday, Ist, 2d, slight showers, with fine intervals; 3d ,4 th , slight showers, with high winds; sth, ith, fair • , 7th, Bth, slight showers; 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, fair and hot; 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, generally fine, with hot intervals, but , occaNional showers.-/bid. __ QUICK TRANSIT OF GOODS TO AND FROM Lola:VG —DISPATCH THE ORDER OF THE DAY.—We understand the Midland Railway Company have made arrangements in connexion with the London and North-Western Rail. way Company, that all goods delivered into their bends up to four o'clock P.M. daily, will bo delivered in London early next morning, by their agents, Messrs. Pickford and Co., and Messrs. Chaplin nd . Borne ; and goods goo d s ' yet accomplished betweeit received in London are delivered in Bradford and dis trict the following afternoon. This, therefore, is " the quickest transit tor Yorkshire and the metropolis.—Bradford Observer. THE New CITT COAL-EXCHANGE.—This ma g nifi• in Lower Thames street, nearly facing di. is near completion, an d a l rea dy p re sents c c e u n s t to b m ui . i h d o tg ,,e , a very handsome appearance. It is expected that it will be opened in the course of next month.