The Sun. — London, England, 1820-05-10 00:00:00

7P:I ked. il l Ancient "Maglit rate', brit whom he ,1- . 0,:los :;Art ventine to compare Avid: h Hon, bin!, had elso incurred b 4 blame of the b:AtLtne Ildving preserved an li l i Derial city (r.olVetinfligratinti. its, horiSes tramender, ender, and- its iohabitanti frotn asSassinatibn. e had ittl many thritb;s -hrought :Against biur, P.‘ ll ehati never heel) considered. guilty -itieof pie a tact proved by the recoil t he;ristorian an the subject Let. , .:Ark ~lltut stridom . tconjurationis vehernenter sumo et ; . - cahterosdcl emir ; . _berte polliceautnr, denitine ? t ram ot ens Huai) inaXinte manitestos ba 1/13t•“—(Hear, hear, 'rear !) l i l 4 . l, ••Hoaftousa, in giving his , vote this night, U ti~lit 1r Aecessiry, t itter what hail tallen tri to .„,te Hon. Member on the floor, to stave. why he ''to. to vote tor so extraordin, y, "so til),ocrd" t tq ; 1 1 1 01.i . 01, He telt that he bad treed of more than 4stka l inritil:4ence of the 1-1 ,)iise, considering very peculiar circumstances uncle h. " . eh hi- addressed them ; to that indulgenve lie 110 :4;d ea. more than in the weight of argiitylent he might offer, ilisdilfietd!) , was increased / I, iving TA) cnn►hnt the opi.lion of so ivvecirol, ‘ 1 111 '!le-t'c ' vd, snit inteiligent Alember the bt , who had declared that there %vas 1 , 4 pi eredeia in the nsages of the liaise ,lio• 4 " motion. Now linless senses were so PI or so per vetted to preyent bin) front ,'in ol i s hi ng het wren right and wrong, he r r veived manir preeents, ell of whieh were liiteei point. As to the need of evidence on site v Cases whet e the House. had 511• ass ~~►L I ut 'FE'S 111 - - t en ~ial t:r the: 1.111 . 4a- gIIC 1' ! ~'+ ,v a 5 g any !rs t+ << ~ Yq tV 're- 4~~ Ed- h's that I" irs II,AV the 1 at I; , IN am * the be- 'At() Ito* it)i, tiro9 wa:,t • • sib!fr. e lot unci of a tliiiit , v Sri* y be • Se" bout II the one avide ph! ) c wfi* I"%ineti 'the nf j.irisdiciion without any 8t Al!--xitkiont Hity other intent. en,v , itoinvil than of inflicting punish ainst i‘lachinscians ag • Mi ii tuts wcie I : 4 lr e d i n ibis, way. o wn why not machionnons t l4 "itt , :t the p, ()pie fie thooght there was good tl 't for g oi g into the examination, because thr onto! 'mime nlrrsraioling elsewhere, ll; ,vernfnent, by its tit% agent, had lu- the late plot. "there were oilier dis '' which wer e eqiniliy lamentable. The tt oi e .ht he sat in the House he •heard seve tlli expression s tbnplyio g a necessity for what et called reducing t h e people ; particular t hrees of violence were • proposed to be used 1711(!S tlieul, which proved a feeling to exist tliase walls which, was not at all under j'9int „,,,svie. li e would not say that the. Govern t k‘ere giti;ty in einpinying Etkvatils, or that icq %sere in noce nt ; was part of die matter tl i t t l'ieStion. Let ( oppotinn;ty he given for 1 11 :, 111 'n' it up, snit stir Wing that . Gtivertituent l _ had ti ' sanctioned his - eriniei ieply to the tyser t44is of the Hot,. Member's, "drawn from the ~l n e jen t world, be supposed the Hon. Member al -44.'11 to Cicero. Toe lion Nlettihe•l had forgot i t tli /t ltte that Cici ro did no' make Ftilvia and the ii"i°, ll rt47,es conspirators.—(Cheers from the'Op ttil,'tic)ll.)—He did nut apply this remark to Go. t4' 4ll e"ti. but he was replying to the inference , t, Flonottrable Aletriber's argument on 81,- 4 0 41 ; 10 g tu the ancient world, as if its wisest iii li"4lants espoused the spy system. Now many ho them reprobated it. An intelligent i 4 i l honest historian, Soetonius, placer) than ocirersaria rerun, and eautiOned Princes ta4 st itstug them Hie Emperor used 10 h i h 'e the soles to h e venipt And sent into divan' n' ; Constantine frequently pin the it, : A r ' l lvrs to de a th ; a nd not only . •-iitiong tile good %tttiithtrn the butt !'strip , tore 11. ( 1 t h e de estation 1. spits prevaiE st•tt'l ( hit he ha d no fo r i„torm„., ; disliked than. and t Plinceps; qu i d e l o : ores n on castiot, arridet t4 s ll,oci i For 111,, optoioto, of 111 ' ,1 a " ci enr w " t i d v gbich the ifimoarahle Member had referred I' l N for his authoti y, "soil to which he (Mr. .`• l l l ' l totts e ) only alluded before nn assembly so itatortned on the stibiqet, ta shew that 1 1 l 'lttevii.e was not entirely in favour of the tt,, lt ctrabl e me m ber. hot as the ancient world tt: ,t unifo.in support to the employment 11 i i 1 P'es, neither did the modern world.— :e0; 01 4111 y part o f M ac l.j ave l ethic) s e e med to : 1 k . 4 1 . 4 ' 1 ' 4 11LT the employm e nt of such instruments, ,hiitthe assertion that Governments must employ ''s Welt A s men . M ontesqu i eu l a id d own i b at , , 4Y' 4. a Monarchy spies ought not to be ern tl, i• , reause there was a COIIII.I feeling 14 44, ." 'hem. Ti . e prejudice, suit) Mr. Hob rttioe' which generally prevailed against such tts ttr sufficiently .ponted out the infamy of e , ni Plovtiteot.—(He.r.)-1t appeared '0 him ihi 4 . 1 "e don b' C nm (Mr. Bankes), ..ven e g 1 114 t spies were necessary to good go ' ` 4 t: 6 - : 1) -_,Ir haul made one mistake, and that u , he ought to hate substituted bad— :t`'ver''l,l)--for he did not recollect any good 01 0 r tittea t • •,yr u in which they had received em- Si % • ent ~tri , 7 Some would make a distinction be -I,,.teeiv: 1 1 ) Y and an instigator, but he could not ` 4 14,1 ,b justness of tar cold() :here, lie in„de.„ onhisn4 spy without an instigation ?—(Bear.) mtp '" 1 "yeti i telli rence—his silbsistence Oe f, li etw or what ifmaion he brought, and , e , he 11104011 n it or i was 'not the nature of 4 /14 e'r vt i r u s t " rt.ic h . agents should 'remain passive t)tis• n o the contrary, he thought that where A • -pi t rAe ), did not exist before, they would e , (40e. AF ler a few more remarks he hoped Ot) aci :e would consent to entertain the tures. 4 14 1 ,, 1 ' this, show that they participated in the 4, 4l r l ll ° u t t he Commons of England —(Hear.) 1, f I cRtv,oRTH, who was scarcely audible 1: 14 s ei ,„ "l e ft, %va s nu d es : stoo d to state , t h at h e t i" cnte of those men who had been seduced e late Plot, nor by Edwards, but by his 1 4 ' 1 4 of i w i r ' e )( A i i . r, And chiefly because lie earl in the t h s, . rea ding seditious p.iblications.—(Heer, , 41 1 e, I. " •) - -Atter cl)ifession hail been li,t i tat ed e , (Mr. Butt: worth wished to have it Oetore a Magistra te, but the tnan bad • 't' tere'fi eo ,„ ed by the party with which lie had %„.li ieti :. l retra, 1,, had begged nut to, he 4,4letf4r t public. lie (Mr. fiut•erwortli) had .01. this evening oti account of the pre hiri if he knew arty t ' tp'i l ed that he knew t 4 , 5 him b ,ns , lat since the late ex e cion , concerned in tile plot had told cohymnis I • • '" , l Ihe t . ih. • • ut( l )ects piesetit at ore of their b..t tievrr since —Olen; !)-I.le Ihi„ o c u , t 1 1, 'o'), whether he th oug h t t h at the . (i ts it 'l*vicr Lad bccu, " by, Sir, du you suppose they were ehildre.. They cv:_remen of good understanding, and wanted no °rye to excite them, for they were desperate in the busi ness."—(Hear, heat !) Eie (nr. Butter worth) was real:y.shoekid to see a t»otion of the kind of the ptesvnt brou;:lit forward.--(Near, hear'.)---It of a piece wins the q t'estions pin to Thistlewood at the moment of Ins execution, questions utterly devoid of coalition feeling.-- (Hear, hear !)--I-le believed that the speeches on this occasion would do great Mischief; similar ones had powerfully -contributed to produce the late disinrbinces, and he should not himself have spoken but in Conti - Min justice to the Government Of the country.--llear, hear!) . _ Mt. iitimit defended hi,; Honourable Friend, the worthy Alderman-, troth the blame cast upon him havin4 endeavolfred ascertain the truth, tit the moment when an unfortunate wan ‘vas pre paring to appear before his Creator, by questions which could not wound ,his feelings. lie consi dered that the solit:ol instance andticed by the last honourable iViember, of a man who -knew nothing of Eoiwards, : was t) ,, answer it, the, thirty augntn:nts dud thirty depositions which had been produced. . . _ WyNs did not remember during the many yr...1.s that h.- 11..0l been a Meifiber ot that House, 3 nritmti brought forward on such extraordinary grounds as the present, unless it was the attempt tirade with a• similar intent on a former i!e cont ended• that no Secret Committees had ever been granted,- but to lay the basis of a legislative enacttnent, which was not even thought of on this OCcdSlott.• Noce of the men whose depositions had been- mentioned appeared to have done that which was- the ditty of loyal subjects. They .had given no information of the plot unboso;oed to them with:mt reserve.—(Bear, hear !) This tniOt not, perhaps, lessen the guilt of Edwards, but it cert,.inly dimiNished their own credibility. —(fleat).—None Could ,deny that there had been a conspiracy, and it was quite natural that those who were implicated in the plot should be atittious to revenge the late of their comrades by giving evidence against Edwards. It was matter of regret that it should be necessary to employ spies, but was it to be maintained that Mieisters ought to refuse to attend to what was deposed by such persons ? From his soul he believed that there had been a plot,,;iind that but for the infor mation derived from the sources which had been so touch objected to, he believed that that plot would have been executed. liut it was said that spies ought to listen to 'that was passing, but not to encourage the conspirators to proceed in their evil designs They ought to consider what sort ot men 'spies were. 1-le believed . the're were few instances of persons joining in such a con spiracy with the intention of betraying it from she first. Having engaged in the plot their courage tailed them, and to save themselves they betrayed their fellows.- It was in this way that spies and informers in such eases were commonly obtained, and he thought it was one of t he greatest securities of the country th a t they were so obtained, as the knowledge that thhse %vitt, were most active in such plots were commonly those who betrayed the other con spirators powerfully ()permed' 4an the minds of many, and deterred them from engaging with those ho entertained such designs. lie could not see hat any purpose would be answered by acceding to this motion. Edwards, when be made his dis closures, had of course been pronib.tirl sees:city.; 10 IiOW, that through his means the other con spirators had been prosecuted to conviction, were hey to torn round upon him and punish hint Ile could not see the shadow of on argumeut in t . rsour of the motion, and should therefore most cordially give his vote against it. . - Mr. DENMAN said, he feared that Hon: Gentle man, ill looking to the danger from which spies rescued the Cuantry, forgot the greater danger of !heir e m pl,,y,,, aw , sapping the foundations on which the security, the enjoyment, and happiness of the commuirity depended.—(Hear.)--,He could conceive nothing of -so novel a nature in the mo tion. The worthy Alderman appeared to him to act in a m.itther neither abhorrent to the princi ples of the Constitution nor the feelings of a man. Similar motions for inviry had been made after he executions at Derby in 1817, and Sir Samuel Romilly had always beet io the minorities who were favoArable to it. An inquiry was recommend ed before a Secret Committee into the general sys tem ; the otject of the motion was to disciiver, by the examination, whether the proceedings against these persons had been fairly and legally pursued, There might be cases, he did not deny,:wnere spies could be justly employed.—(Cheers from the, Ministerial side.)—ln the Catilinarean conspi racy it undoubtedly was the duty at the Consul to send out a spy.—(Loud cheering.)-13nt the question Was not the same. The question het e was, who supplied Edwards with money many mouths before the time fixed for the execution of the plot ? How it was that he beset Thistlewood the moment be left Horsham gaol ? The question was, whether here there was a manufacture of crime by accomplices, who were afterwards to be brought forward against their fellows in a Court of Justice ?---(Hear, hear!)—He wasfar from mewl ing to accuse Ministers of countenonciog sucba proceeding but he sail it was impossible, if once a spy was employed, to draw a line beyond which lie could not go; and the Minister who employed such persons at all incurred a very great responsi bility. The questions pot to Thistlewood at the place of . execution, were intimately connected with the discovery of the truth, and might have led to the discovery of a conspiracy of a more atrocious kind titan that which had been detected. With respect to the examination of 'Edwards in the Court, it was very desirable that all persons of that description should be placed in the witnesses•box, to undergo the most strict cross-examination by the prisoner's Counsel. It might in this instance, in a very great degree-, have evenuared their guilt. If it appeared that the fair line was overstepped. in the province of a spy, which he strongly suspected, there could not be a`stronger case for the. appiii.ation of a Secret Committee.— The Honoutaide Gentleman then commented with severity on the part acted by Oliver in the year 1617. He could state from'the information to the prisoner'; Counsel in the last case, that Edwards appeared to have been a m!/5t active instigator of use plans from beginning to end. • . , „ owned that the Whole Of the spy system appeared to him so detestable, that whenever he thonght of it the words of Mr. Burke al ways r ectirred to his metnory—." Tie seeds of desteoetioo are laid in civil intercourse and social habitudes, men's tables and beds are surrouraled with snares, arid all the means bestowed by Pro vidence to make life sweet and happy, are Per verted into sources of fear and foist.; y." It the Government must take spies into employment, in like manner mast the Directors of the Costalos and Excise, and the Bauk. It was ;robable that the systeru was carried to mach zoo great an ex tent, and he should most certainly gist: his humble support to the motion. . The ATI-ORNEY GENPRAL contended, that throughow all the evidence offered on site trials, there was not a tittle to support the opinion that Edwards had beet; employed by the Government, hot that, on the contrary, the natural inference from the whole tenor of it was, that having been engaged in it, and having coere forward to give iotoionatioli neat the, time of execution, the Go vernment fiat! been enabled by his means to deteet and crush one of the most taut conspiraeies that irid ever disgraced this or any other cotintryea-- He asked the lion. Alderman would he have thought it necessary to produce Edwards at the trial, it he had known what was stated by a man of the name of Moonmelit, that when Thistlewood and he were grotig tsp hand-cuffed 'ogether to Lord Sidmouth's office, Thistlewood had told him to say before the Privy COuncil that it was Edwards who had seduced him into the plot, and that lie was at Cato-ttreet.—(Hear, hear 1) — when Monument replied, how can I say that wio•ii he was not there. The other answered, no mat ter, PI( describe his class, so that you may say he was there, and giye a descriotion of the chitties he wore.---(Cheeta from the Ministerial benches.) hit further desired him to send that round among the rest of the prisoners, that they might all say the same—(Cheers.)—Edwards had never addressed a single speech to the conspirators, and had never proposed any plan. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman then read an extract from the speech made by Brunt when brought up to receive sefitence, confirming, he said, in a Most extraordinary manner, a statement made by Adams, and unsupported by any other witness, purporting that Brunt objected to a plan pro posed for making an attack on London the night of the King's funeral, because it did not include within its objects the assassination of the Mi nisters.—(Hear, hear, hear !) . —After citing ano ther passage from the same speech, he asked, could it after that be said that Brunt had been instigated by Edwards ? 'Kidd, in his speech, had called the Ministers a set of villains. Nose, those individuals must be creduloos beyond any thing who could conceive after this that these •men required instigation to any erime. Again, it , was imagined that Edwards had the means, and did contribute money to further the plot. New it had appeared that at a meeting at . which Edwards at tended, it had been proposed to tteat the men who were to assemble at Cato-street ; Thistlewood pro posed to subscribe 6.i. and Brunt offered to ontri bloc it worm! note; Edwards ,dfered nothing. But was it possible to suppose that it he had been in the possession of money for the purpose imputed, lie would not have made an offer of it ?—(Hear ) He then condemned the . conduct of Alderman Wood in putting the questioes to Thistlewood But what evidence had lie obtained ? The first question - was, 11 7 hen did you become acquainted with Edwards ? Answer : Two days atter leaving . Horsham gaol.—Where ? Answer : At Preston's. —The worthy Alderman was at a loss - to know whether Preston in Lancashire was meant, or Preston the cobbler's (and he might ask the worthy Alderman whether be had not had a communica tion with that person within the last 24 hours ?) But he was informed by Thistlewood that it was at the latter. He now came to the last question, and it was fortunate that Thistle Wood did not lend him self to what seemed to have been the views of others, for if he had then declared that Edwards supplied them with money, it would immediately go forth through the country, Oh, Thistlewood has declared it just before being launched into eternity. - The question was, ad Edwards give you money ? But .what was the answer ? A trifle, now and then a•pound note. Was Ed , Vards a man Opening' to have money ?--No, not 'much ! Undoutitedly the conspirators had much more money than they ought'eo have had, from what ever quarter it had come; and if what he' bad just said should come to the ears of certain per sons, they should - know that Government were not without proofs which might serve . tor bring ing them ro justice. The four affidavits relied on by the worthy Alderman came front Chambers, a witness produced at the trials, but whose teti mony had been discredited by rise Jury; Tidd's daughter, whose evidence had been considered to strengthen the case for the prosecution, and Irons persons of the names of Toebtidge and (we be lieve) Pinckbard. The worthy Alderman seemed .10 have _postponed Isis valtiable information till after the execution of the convicts, as if to throw a slur on the trial -and conviction. He for one should certainly oppose:the motion.—(hear.) Sir F. BtaabeTT, rose, principally to amake this observat ion, -that if ever a speech was made cal - citlited to support a motion which it was.intend ed to oppose, it was that of the Learned Gentle man who had just sat down. If the case was 91116 as lie had desciihea it to be, what, in the name of God, could he objected from the other side to the inquiry called .for by this motion 3. The Learned Gentleman•said dime could be no doubt,. rind would admit that there could be no doubt of the existence of the -Conspiracy e but he (the Attorney-General) had added, diet the late sof terers had stated Edwards to have nothing to do with the plot, asserting that it %vial wholly of their own framing. He (Sir F. Burdett) would say the reverse of this was the fact, fur they had all, glorying as they did in the plot for which they aatfered, said they shookd consider themselves to he murdered it Edwards were not Oared in the wit ness- box, that they might hive the satisfaction of proving that he had instigated them to the courses., which they had been induced to sue. The manlier in which the worthy Madman had been treated by the Attorney-General, was not only in.ltis jtidgment wholly unparbansentary, but certainly calculated to deter a hlembtr of Iliac House from performing his duty, as tlie Worthy Alderman had &Me, and for which he Loos'',lvied hirn really to deserve the thanks of his country. — Of the existence of the plot tor doubt cont.! be entertained, as the sufferers had gloiird iu it ; bat he had no hesitation iii saying that had they oot admitted it, the evidence give:, on , he trials would not haVe removed all doubt from his mind. He confessed that he regarded spies with that abhor rence with which till very lately they had always beets viewed in England. con-i6r-.1 ri stn as symptomi of the times, Wheo did •liese creatures . make their appearance ? was prosperous tithes, nor -nndet good Govere•ments. —This he instanced by referring to the Roman history, and appealing to the !loose it t , ey Nete not found most ill use in the reiges of L\ei Ca ligula, and the other tyrants who had worn die Imperial purple. Adverting to the conduct of Cas tles and Oliver, he maintained that it the former was an accomplice, the latter woes unquestiouably • Government Spy. For the mischief induced by his means they must be held responsible. " Quf tacit per aliumfocit per se," WHSa niaxiit wlt is he had a right to apply to them, and tse'must tend that they hod no right to stir tip any part of the people to outrage by menus of spies, as they appearet! to have done, Spits ought not to be used .as they had been on the late oce Nitta, Virnile con lending against this, he co;opl,ined that a smile was called forth by what he had said, which he should not have expected the most bribiaut effu sions of wit to produce on such an occasion. To him it seemed evident that the coospirators bad been seduced into the plot by Edwards. It ap peared very plain that these poor men were With. OW , money —were, in fact, almost starving;. The•. House had been told that no ne%v swords had b,wn, produced on the trial ; hitt where, he wished to know, did those funds come trout which had pur chased the aims which had been found in their possession ? He admitted, that Mary Basket's evi- . Bence went, in some measure, to support the case of the prosecution, but still Edwitods Was found at the bottom of all ; and where, lie could wish to know, did that person, who had recently been a very poor man, get the money which enabled him to dole out occasional donations to Thistletvood ? The Honourable Baronet then enlarged on the evil effects of employing spies, and confessed that he had so much vulgar prejudice about him, that he abhorted and ele ester! them. He did no , think, that they ought to be used at all, he considered . them the have and pests of society, and wo-tid ' Almost rather that we should go back to the woodS thixo have recoutse to such vile means to delta conspiracy. Montesquieu had said spies were not einidoyed by good Princes; but Maelli.ivel went farther, and proved that the practice was as impo litic a 5 it was hateful.' In the present case, was of opinion that the country would not be sa tisfied it inquiry was refused ; and he, therefore, should vole •for the Committee, in the hope that the granting of it wonld lead to tire et iniinatioo or exculpation of Ministers. Alt. CANNING confessed himself to have been so satisfied with the state.ot the case, as it ap pealed from several speeches at both sides of the House, that he determined, from many obvious reasons, to have abstained from mixing iii tie de bate ; and if the matter were sitifeted to rest on the grounds stated by the worthy Alder• man, he should not h.,ve altered that determina tion ; but having heard what had fallen from the Hon. Baronet, he'relt he had sufficient grounds to justify his altering it. The worthy Alderman said, in bringing the question forward, that he disclaimed all intention of attacking ; but the lion. Baronet says, it is an accusation of the Government. Under that imputation, coining from what quarter it may, and put forward with whatever design it might, he could not, in justice to himself or to his colleagues, remain silent. One vice ran through all the reasoning of the Hon. Baronet, namely, that lie assumed as fact every thing stated in certain papers, which by courtesy were called depositions. The Hon. Baronet also asked Ministers to purge themselves from the cm., ployment of spies, and had in a manner put them on their trial. 'The charge against than was the. employment of spies, and overt act was the detection of a conspiracy. Now this, iu his viw, was no very heinous crime. It appeared the views of the conspirators were only to 'dispatch a few persons who filled obnoxious situations, and so tar not very unpalatable to ttra:iy persons; but then it should be considered that through their blood the destruction of the metropolis was likely to have ensued. He did not take credit to hint., self or his colleagues for their being incidentally saved, but they certainly deserved somethhig for saving- their I; wintry. Nobody denied the inten tions of the coesoirators—few had the hardihood to doubt : of their atrocious character, and fewer still had the face to deny the perverse and (halm. 'Heal .spirit of their designs ; but not wittist.oa lug ail this it was assumed, as a matter of Prima facie evidence against the Gov, rnment, that they succeeded in detecting such a conspiracy. But they had detected it by liftman tneans, not iike the Puritans of old; and they availed themselves of the treachery of a fellow conspirator to effect the public safety, and they secured it. What .would be said to the Government, if aware of (1-,lager, they had - neglected the meaos by which its extent could be asiertained, and those who plotted it punished, as they ought Why, perhaps, it would be regarded) as en addition - al . . ground Inc placing them nu their trial. Theo spies were not to be believed; bait was no man to believe another unless he could press hiin to his Itosous--tunless you could make him the deposi tary of your cotififence ? Such a• proposition was absurd ; and although the lionom,.able Baronet complained of a smile at what be said, he might have called it a laugh—he would find that ah• surdity wouldsalways excite laughter, as 01. t: had . found it on that occasion. Who could give information of a conspiracy without participating in it ? Suppose, in a private fari4ily, a man's set; yam told him he was to he moldered, would the toaster tell the servant, go you spotted traitor, yot have betrayed your fellow conspirators, .your as sociates in crime, I will not listen to what yon say. Would he do this, and take no precaution against the danger that awaited him ? Suppose this occulted to the Worthy Baronet himself— why if his taste was of that description that he wished hintbelf Worm up, he (\lr. C.) could have